1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,280 Today on the Winning with Shopify podcast. 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,360 Sustainability part is a is is clearly, you know, a really 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,280 important part of what we do. Greenwashing I think is 4 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,000 something you've been really key to avoid and I and I really 5 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,160 respect that. One of the best brands of a take 6 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,200 back scheme. I love sustainability but I'm 7 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:15,880 looking for a T-shirt. But how did the operations work? 8 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,320 How? How did the swatches display? 9 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,160 You know, what's the sort orders of the PLPS? 10 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,480 This is the stuff that really matters to merchants. 11 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,440 Where's the money coming from, how do we get more of it, and 12 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,800 where can we pump more cash? There's a lot of struggling 13 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,880 retailers out there and a lot of struggling sustainable 14 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,880 retailers. Oh yeah, we've just reached 20. 15 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,080 1000 trees, we're like you, you what? 16 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,920 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Winning of 17 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Shopify podcast. Today I come up with the amazing 18 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,000 James Kearns, who is the managing director of a amazing 19 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,560 brand called Rapa Nui, and we also work with them. 20 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,200 So it's quite nice just having a bit of an inside scoop as to 21 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,800 what happens within their business. 22 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:52,240 Today's show is not to be missed. 23 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,520 James is an absolute legend. He's worked at some incredible 24 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,160 brands over the years, and here are a few things that we spoke 25 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,160 about that are written on my magical pad of paper. 26 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,480 So we spoke about being honest, telling the story, and also 27 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,000 James is very passionate about average order value and unit 28 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,240 economics. And that sounds really dry, but 29 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:09,920 the way he talks about is incredible and it can help you 30 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,120 make more money. We spoke about logic and reason 31 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,440 versus data and that is a real battle we do have with a lot of 32 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,520 clients talking about less sexy, more operational stuff. 33 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,080 And we spoke about how returns can make you more money than 34 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,200 sales, as in reducing the amount of returns is more profitable 35 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,200 than making sales. And we spoke about some of the 36 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,200 creatives and the amazing creative team they've got, Rapa 37 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,160 Nui, The Last Mile let down. We've all been there. 38 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,520 I think and most importantly, we also spoke about organic versus 39 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,600 not organic or non organic channels. 40 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,400 And that is obviously a big challenge for a lot of us 41 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,440 because organic is free and paid is not. 42 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,160 And most importantly, I think one of my favorite phrases from 43 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,000 today's episode. There was, here's how to not 44 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,440 scale up a problem. Hope you enjoy today's show. 45 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,280 Something is I would say slightly different about you 46 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,160 James than most of the clients we work with is most people we 47 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,520 talked to are like the marketing director or something. 48 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,960 You're managing Director and you have been at the last few roles 49 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,640 as well, but obviously you're passionate about marketing at 50 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,440 the same time and that's what we're going to talk a little bit 51 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,200 about today. But how much more effective 52 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,760 would you say is it that the managing director takes such an 53 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,680 interest in marketing? Or although you kind of got 54 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,640 managing director hat on, you understand the importance of 55 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:13,440 marketing and how it fits together in that customer 56 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,080 engagement. Like it surely must give you an 57 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,200 edge over other organisations in terms of that set up? 58 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,520 Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, marketing's 59 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,160 everything, right? You have to understand, you 60 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,640 know, how your customers see your brand and how you want your 61 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:28,760 customers to feel when they interact with your brand. 62 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,440 So yeah, I, you know, classic MD remit comes, stands end to end 63 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,280 across the ball business. And that very much entails 64 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,720 marketing, because it needs to. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 65 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,360 Well, tell us a bit about Rapa Nui then. 66 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,880 I mean, that's what we're going to talk about the most today. 67 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,400 And obviously we work with you guys, but you said it's a 68 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,720 sustainable fashion brand, sustainable clothing. 69 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,720 And, and part of the journey I think is trying to define like 70 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,440 what is that one line tagline? But Sova knows what we're 71 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,840 talking about. Tell us a bit about Rapa Nui. 72 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,160 You know the journey so far, how long you've been involved and 73 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,160 what some of the the kind of USPS around it are. 74 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,520 Yeah, great. So yeah, I appreciate, you know, 75 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:01,520 many people won't have heard of it. 76 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,080 So it's it's an it's an outdoor lifestyle brand. 77 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:11,760 So you kind of think brushes Patagonia vibes and it has it's 78 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,920 been around for over 15 years now, actually Co founded by two 79 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,000 brothers based out of the Isle of Wight and it's got 80 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,920 sustainability at its heart. So actually the brothers were 81 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:22,400 kind of pioneer, early pioneers of circularity. 82 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,320 And so we've had a take back, one of the first brands of a 83 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,040 take back scheme. We actually opened it up last 84 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,240 year to all brands. So we now accept any cotton 85 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,840 product back from any brand and we give you store credits if you 86 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,720 if you participate in that scheme. 87 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,400 And so yeah, it's a, it's been largely jersey wear for a long 88 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,600 time. We use almost exclusively 89 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,240 natural and organic products. So organic cotton is a big part 90 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,480 of the business and everything manufactured out of three 91 00:03:52,480 --> 00:04:00,120 recyclable fully renewable energy factories and a big part 92 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,320 of the business is print on demand. 93 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,120 So as many of your listeners will be aware, sort of 94 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,880 overconsumption is a big challenge in the apparel and 95 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,520 textile industry. So about half our business is 96 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,320 actually made when the customer orders the product to try to 97 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,160 manage and kind of confront that overconsumption challenge. 98 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,519 So yeah, sustainability is a big part of big part of the brand, 99 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:21,920 but it is a lifestyle, outdoor lifestyle brand. 100 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:24,880 Yeah, yeah. And I think a massive edge you 101 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,240 guys have got is obviously the first time you emailed me, I saw 102 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,640 your e-mail address saying like, oh, James is at T mail now. 103 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,120 And it's like, who on earth are these guys? 104 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,680 So Rapid News, obviously run by a bigger company, which is 105 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,440 obviously T Mail. But it gives you that edge, 106 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,080 doesn't it, with that print on demand, as you say. 107 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,640 As much as I love that you guys call it circularity as well, 108 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,480 there's a much longer phrase you could use, but I think it's in 109 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:44,680 marketing. We're trying to define things 110 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,280 with sort of single word. But that print on demand is 111 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,280 incredible because you're not sitting on warehouses for the 112 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,280 stock, are you? It's a completely different 113 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,080 model to what most brands are doing, like ordering Alibaba and 114 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,560 getting stuff shipped from China. 115 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,680 Yeah, that, that's right. You know to you know, I've 116 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,920 worked in retail a long time and you know, driving high sell 117 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,720 throughs is a big challenge. And you know, average sell 118 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,120 through in apparel typically is between 78%. 119 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,920 So if you think how much product is actually produced, that means 120 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,640 that a lot of product is not being sold and so therefore to 121 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,560 only complete the product or produce the product once the 122 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:24,600 customer confirms they want it. That is a serious USB and one of 123 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,240 the great things that kind of has has happened at TML 124 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,400 technology is all of that print on demand technology and the 125 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,080 platform capabilities have basically been given away to to 126 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,160 external merchants for free to try to encourage those good 127 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,240 behaviours. So yeah, just, you know, trying 128 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:45,000 to, you know, design, you know, design and the end to end 129 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,680 clothing and apparel industry in a different way. 130 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,280 Yeah, and I found it amazing learning about the business at 131 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:52,600 first. It's like it's probably one of 132 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,160 the biggest manufacturers of clothing here in the UK that no 133 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,440 one's ever heard of and for good reason. 134 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,800 And as you say, it's trying to help other brands as well be 135 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,000 more sustainable. But what an incredible model. 136 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,960 I think from a financial perspective of like 0 stock, but 137 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,360 you're not drop shipping. You own the customer, you own 138 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,880 the whole shipping process. But you are, I know, I know it's 139 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,400 not quite 0, but it's pretty much, you know, it's next to 0 140 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,000 stock that you guys are actually sitting on. 141 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,160 It's almost like you only need one or two of every item 142 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,880 available just purely for that instance and dispatch. 143 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,600 But yeah, I mean, as Managing Director, it must be quite nice 144 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,760 looking at the the P&L at the end of the day going like, OK, 145 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,280 there's two lines missing from this that I'm previously used 146 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:31,040 to, but they I don't have to worry about them so much 147 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,920 anymore. Yeah, that's right. 148 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,040 You know, you know, it's, it's a fiscal model that scales, right. 149 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,320 Because you know, biggest challenge that most, you know, 150 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,440 apparel merchants have is, is purchasing inventory upfront. 151 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,280 And so, you know, when we from a rapidly perspective, we we pay 152 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:53,320 for the product once the customer confirms they want the 153 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,920 product. So you know from a cash flow 154 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,760 lifestyle perspective that is a much better model and and 155 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,600 obviously the scalability is much faster. 156 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,080 Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that it's 157 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,920 talk about marketing for a SEC, one of the things that you've 158 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,040 mentioned quite a few times in meetings we've had, and it's 159 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,360 something you want to stay away from, which is greenwashing and 160 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,880 having the marketing to kind of, you know, we're, we're better, 161 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,120 better for the planet than everybody else and trying to get 162 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,560 too heavy on the green side. Yet there is, as you say, the 163 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,600 sustainability element in the middle. 164 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,160 And even to the point where we we did a review for you guys 165 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,640 recently looking at ad copy of like, OK, what are we actually 166 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,160 saying against passenger and other competitors like Patagonia 167 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,520 and other brands, both of which have either been on the show or 168 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,240 are coming on the show in the near future, might add. 169 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,840 So we'll see what they have to say compared to compared to you 170 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,720 guys, of course. But green washing I think is 171 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,840 something you've been really key to avoid. 172 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,680 And I and I really respect that. But equally we're like, we're 173 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,760 trying to kind of avoid being too green washy. 174 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,120 We're trying to make profit in all of this. 175 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,120 We're trying to get that sustainability element in there. 176 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Like for brands in general, like everyone's doing some level of 177 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,360 good stuff and everyone's still doing stuff they should do 178 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,400 better. How do you get that across in 179 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:01,920 your marketing? Like how does that become a 180 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,800 marketing strategy and marketing plan or even marketing messaging 181 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,560 to customers? Yeah. 182 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,280 So it's a great question, and it's not easy. 183 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,040 It's the truth. You know, it's consumers live 184 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,520 busy lives and, you know, there's a crazy amount of, you 185 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,440 know, different certification bodies out there. 186 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,000 And frankly, they all do different things. 187 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,760 And keeping up with which ones are authentic and real is hard 188 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,920 work. And so I think in terms of how 189 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,240 we do it, I think there's probably 2 underlying 190 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,840 principles. 1 is try to keep it simple. 191 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,080 And, and the second is be honest. 192 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,840 You know, the truth is like, we're not perfect. 193 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,080 You know, we, like, we, you know, we live in a, in a 194 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,320 connected global world. And you know, we, you know, we, 195 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,840 we, we also produce clothing. So I think you have to tell, you 196 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,680 know, your story honestly within that. 197 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,000 And the truth is what Brapanui and T Mail have been doing for a 198 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,400 long time, there is a great story to be told. 199 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,640 So it's about trying to tell that story in a simple authentic 200 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,360 way. You know, whether it's the 201 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,200 fibres we use or how we get the product to consumer or when we 202 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,560 produce the product, you know, there is a great story to be 203 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:07,920 told. And so I think when you try to 204 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,960 distill that story down into a simple format and you beat the 205 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,280 same drum beat constantly, then you can kind of like, you know, 206 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,720 you can you can kind of like get that message is the land with 207 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,440 consumers. But I do have, you know, I 208 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,200 improvise because it's not easy. It's, you know, there's lots of 209 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,760 conflicting messages out there. Absolutely. 210 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,760 And I mean even some of the web copy like we've been through, 211 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,880 you know, I won't go into too much detail because I appreciate 212 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,120 I also haven't agreed what I can and can't say ahead of this 213 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,400 chat. But we've had some changes in 214 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,840 the website copy and the way we present things this year. 215 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,600 We've been running tests, we've been you know, we've we've been 216 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,000 to some degree involved in that. But your team have been amazing. 217 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,480 I think of just adopting like we're just going to going to do 218 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,680 whatever the hell we need to to make this thing work. 219 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,040 And it's, it is interesting though, isn't it, when we've 220 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,880 learnt some of the things like, OK, when we say that although we 221 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,760 all thought like, right, that's going to be really powerful. 222 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,840 It's just not. And other times when we've just 223 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,760 gone, all right, let's see. I mean, this circularity, for 224 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,200 example, they're, they're giving products back probably a massive 225 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,680 part that's untapped at the moment, I would say in the the 226 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,560 whole brand message. But then, as you say, empathize 227 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:13,760 with with brands and, and with people like us trying to fit 228 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,040 that into a single advert on Google because it's like, or a 229 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,040 single SEO listing, because actually it's hard to get that, 230 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,280 all of that across when actually the customer really to some 231 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:23,800 degree doesn't care until they care. 232 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,480 And so you've got to focus more on like that product you want. 233 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:27,960 Yeah, we've got it. It's awesome. 234 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,520 There's so many cool reasons to buy from us. 235 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Oh, and we're sustainable versus hey, sustainability and people 236 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,000 like all right, I'm I love sustainability, but I'm looking 237 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,720 for AT shirt. I want to find AT shirt 1st and 238 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,400 it's it is a. Real challenge, isn't it, just 239 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,880 to make it concise enough and get that wording right. 240 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,960 Yeah, completely. It's again comes back to 241 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,440 marketing, right? Classic marketing. 242 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,720 How do you drive that cut through? 243 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,400 You know, some of the language we've used is made to be remade, 244 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,320 you know, and we just, you know, we constantly, you know, hammer 245 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,200 that message through, you know, it's like, you know, the 246 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,120 sustainability part is a is clearly a, you know, a really 247 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,120 important part of what we do. But also, you know, we are still 248 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,040 a retail business. And so, you know, all of those 249 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,800 principles that are important for when consumers buy from you 250 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,920 obviously, you know, apply as well, right. 251 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,880 So, you know, great product, differentiated brand and a great 252 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,240 customer experience. They have to be the things that 253 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,440 come first. And then hopefully we can also, 254 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,160 as part of that communicate that, you know, when you buy 255 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,280 from us, you're leaving less of a footprint behind. 256 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,080 Then that's a great thing to do as well. 257 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,160 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think a lot of brands 258 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,760 as well, you, you guys are much more, I'd say front facing with 259 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,000 the sustainability. And we've, we've got a few 260 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,680 clients that have suddenly said to us like, Oh yeah, we've, 261 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,760 we've just reached 20,000 trees. We're like you, you what? 262 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,080 Like we planted 20,000 trees. It's like, when did you do that? 263 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,840 Like why, what triggered that? And like, well, we've had 20,000 264 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,880 customers since we started. So we've planted 20, OK, well, 265 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,840 customers, I bet none of them even know. 266 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,840 Have you even told any of them? And they're like, no, right. 267 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,400 Well, e-mail campaign, send them all a picture of a tree and go, 268 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,120 this is your tree you bought from us nine months ago. 269 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,120 This is the size of your tree. And it's got this amount of time 270 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:04,440 before it starts soaking up carbon. 271 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,240 And they're like, and the client literally said to me at this 272 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,680 point, it wasn't you guys. Of course they said, Sir, why 273 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,400 would we do that? It was like you just like in a 274 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,760 ghost town somewhere planting trees and not telling anyone 275 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,280 that they've been planting these trees and trying to get this 276 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,080 stuff to, you know, to actually, actually happen. 277 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,960 And so I think it's, I think there is this balancing act of 278 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,680 like going, OK, actually, let's just walk around the business 279 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,520 for 5 minutes and go, what are we actively doing here that 280 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,720 customers would care about, should care about and is good. 281 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,640 And I definitely think like if you 50 years ago tried to be 282 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,120 like carbon friendly or carbon neutral, it would not have the 283 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,600 same impact. Now it's a cultural change, a 284 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,840 very good change. But I do think it's, we 285 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,920 certainly with you guys, when we've looked at like what we put 286 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,440 in ad copy, for example, what we put on the website, there are 287 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 some things that still go unsung and we don't tell people about 288 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,240 them. And that's where the testing 289 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,480 comes in, isn't it? We need to test like, OK, this 290 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,200 one works, this one doesn't. And it's not just revenue we're 291 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,840 looking at, it's the whole engagement piece of do people 292 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,640 actually care? It's asking clients and 293 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,920 customers, you know, like what was it about our brand that made 294 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,680 you buy in the first place? Yeah, completely like the the 295 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,320 tree planting one's really interesting because I often 296 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,000 think whether it's 20,000 trees or 100,000 trees in you know 297 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,080 good thing to do of course but in from a marketing perspective 298 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,400 and build an emotional trees, right. 299 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,040 And so it's how you tell a story. 300 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,680 And we've been having the same conversations at Rapani because 301 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,800 we actually launched our Black Friday campaign next week. 302 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,000 And for every order, we're taking 20 plastic bottle bottles 303 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,000 out of the ecosystem. And you know, it's, it's how, 304 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,560 how do we tell that story? So we're partnering with a 305 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,080 charity called Plastic Bank. We're doing great work. 306 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,520 And part of that story that we've landed on actually is 307 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,520 telling the impact it has for coastal communities and how 308 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,680 actually they're helping to eliminate poverty by removing 309 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,960 some of that plastic from from landfill and turning it into 310 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,760 cash. So there's a human story around 311 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,120 that as well. So it's not just about the 312 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,800 number of plastic bottles, but it's a rich story that comes 313 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,720 with it. So yeah, quite, quite, quite 314 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,560 similar I think to the to the tree planting. 315 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,560 Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, it's bringing back 316 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,160 memories of it. It's only a few weeks ago, 317 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,760 wasn't it that we we had a conversation and I think I made 318 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,720 the point to you guys are like, I think it was 7 to one of your 319 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,840 team. I said like there's like a 320 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,400 million, a number that was in the millions. 321 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,120 And I was like, how do you even think of that? 322 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,880 Like I've lost track of it. No one seems to kind of pause on 323 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,960 it when we've looked at like Microsoft clarity and gone like 324 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,240 what's actually happening on that stat? 325 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,040 But I think exactly what you've just said, what a difference 326 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,600 when it goes from like we've we've saved like 6 billion 327 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,760 plastic bottles and it's like, OK, I can't even imagine. 328 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,440 That's a lot of bottles, right? I don't even know what that 329 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,840 means. But if you say your order, by 330 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,560 making this order with us instead of someone else, we've 331 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,600 saved 6 plastic bottles. And actually here is Joe who was 332 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,960 on the streets but now collects plastic from rubbish and gets 333 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,920 paid to do that and has a life in it and something actually 334 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,160 happening off the back of it. Then, then, then great. 335 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,760 I mean that is such a powerful piece of content. 336 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,200 But I think the fact that it's now it's 20 bottles and there's, 337 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,240 I can't remember what name I just said, but Jim or whoever 338 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,880 this person is now that there's that face, that person, it makes 339 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,040 it so much more real. And I think that is, and we, we 340 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,880 joked before you joked before we hit record. 341 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,120 Who's going to say the catch phrase of marketing has been 342 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,440 lost from digital marketing? But that is marketing. 343 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,920 It's like that's something here. I can understand that. 344 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,560 It's, I can see that in A and I always use the point. 345 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Could you understand it in less than one sentence, you know, or 346 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,480 I just a glance in under 2 seconds kind of thing. 347 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,320 Is it there? I look at that and go, right, I 348 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,880 know what impact buying this product is going to have and 349 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,520 it's real. I can see that. 350 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,200 I mean, I've lost track of the amount of trees I've planted 351 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,800 around the world. Apparently some of them have my 352 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,960 name on them as well. Like no idea, absolutely no 353 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,960 idea. And I mean, there is a company 354 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,360 that I know we've spoken about them before and they've been on 355 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,560 the podcast them 2-3 years ago now 10 tree and they, they are a 356 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,520 tree planting business at heart. And I think that was also quite 357 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,320 a nice angle on it, which means that their their mission to 358 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,880 plant things like 10 billion trees. 359 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,160 Actually, it does make a bit more sense when you understand 360 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,520 that there are tree planting business who sell clothing. 361 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,400 They're not like you guys are clothing brand trying to be 362 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,320 sustainable. And it's just two very different 363 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,040 ways of coming in at probably the same thing. 364 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,160 But I completely hear you that the kind of like, yeah, how many 365 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:05,240 trees? How many bottles? 366 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,600 How many? You know, I don't think anyone 367 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,520 even knows what a ton of CO2 looks like, let alone like what 368 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,880 impact that has on the world. Like it sounds like nothing. 369 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,800 And you just think of coal mines in the Middle East. 370 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,960 It's like, well, it doesn't really make much sense, does it? 371 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,840 No. Anyway, let's talk about profit 372 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,800 though, because all of this stuff is completely pointless. 373 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,080 And it's the thing that you and I talk about probably the most 374 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,600 is like, where's the money coming from? 375 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,800 How do we get more of it? And where can we pump more cash 376 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,240 is always the conundrum. How do you, how do you make 377 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,200 profit when trying to be a sustainable business? 378 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,720 Like because you have to draw a line under the if actually, if 379 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,280 we gave all of our profit away, would our impact make much 380 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,640 difference? Maybe, maybe not. 381 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,000 We're not quite sure. At at what point do you draw a 382 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,880 line then to keep that profitable within the 383 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,160 organization? Yeah, it's, it's a really 384 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,320 pertinent one for what we're seeing at the moment, right? 385 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,840 Because there's a lot of struggling retailers out there 386 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,880 and a lot of struggling sustainable retailers. 387 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,400 And you know, sustainability is not a right of passage to 388 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,119 success and profitability. So I think I, I, I kind of, I, I 389 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,480 refer to this quite often. I touched upon my my kind of 390 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,160 Holy Trinity earlier, which is great product, differentiated 391 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,520 brand and great customer experience. 392 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,319 And whether you're sustainable or not, it for me, it all comes 393 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,520 down to those three things. And across the spectrum of 394 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,920 price, you can be at high end lux or not, but as long as 395 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,720 you're catering to your core customer and doing a good job 396 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,880 across those three things, you can get it right. 397 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,320 The truth is sustainability often does cost. 398 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,720 If you want to have organic fibers, it typically is more 399 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,720 expensive. And so how you tell that value 400 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,480 story to your customer and the planet story to your customer, 401 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,120 you know, frankly has to offset the the, the cost that you're 402 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:50,040 investing in order to deliver that service. 403 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,560 So yeah, I guess in many ways just like running any, any 404 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,480 business, right? If you're going to pitch that, 405 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,000 you know, with that angle at the high end, then you need to do a 406 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,920 good enough job such that your customer understands the value 407 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,320 and wants to come back and shop with you again and again. 408 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,360 Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to come back to 409 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:08,560 something I've said at least once, twice already about 410 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,320 actually the, the, the fact that you guys manufacture your own 411 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,320 products. I mean, that you don't have half 412 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,640 the headaches that so many brands that we talked to on the 413 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,960 show or work with do, which is trying to get hold of stock. 414 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Like, I mean, we, we did an episode a couple of weeks ago 415 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,600 about managing stock through Black Friday and into January. 416 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,640 And where is that Goldilocks? Not too much, not too little. 417 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,040 We need just the right amount to be as profitable as possible 418 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,080 without that as an issue. I think you guys do have a, an 419 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,200 edge from a cash point of view to actually then to spend on 420 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,800 sustainability and stuff. And it's, I think what I love is 421 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,520 I love your 3 principles because it, it creates that full 422 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,520 spectrum of we need this, to have that, to have that to then 423 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,560 back to the first one. And it's all three need to align 424 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,000 and, and work properly and quite quickly as well. 425 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,520 And I see this in the conversations that I have with 426 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,520 yourself. Like if one of them is falling 427 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,120 down, that's the one that we're focused on. 428 00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,160 Like is it the conversion rate of the website right now? 429 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,040 Is it the amount of products? Is it that we can't control the 430 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,280 elections and government news and stuff and customer, you 431 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,560 know, consumer kind of confidence, as we call it, but 432 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,320 we can change what we're offering and even things like 433 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,480 that. It'd be interesting to get your 434 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,560 thoughts actually on this about you've been banging the drums so 435 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,400 much about multi buy rather than single items. 436 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,240 So kind of tell us all your. Strategy around that as well and 437 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,640 how how that fits into rapidity, Yeah, like you know for DT 438 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,520 businesses, so you know, so much of the success is driven around 439 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,760 average order value and the unit economics, right. 440 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,000 So how can you get your contribution margin, you know, 441 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,840 as high as possible? And so, you know, multiple 442 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,800 really is just a strategic promotion or a service because 443 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,720 we know that customers like to buy, you know, many T-shirts 444 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,640 with us at one time. You know, they're probably 445 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,480 buying for every six months, probably 12 months. 446 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,680 And so, you know, we've, we, we use that proposition to drive 447 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,680 up, you know, the number of items in the basket and the 448 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840 average order value while giving our customers the service that 449 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,920 they want. And that's really important 450 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,640 because, you know, we know what our break even costs are and we 451 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,560 need to get, you know, that all the value above that in order 452 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,960 for the business to work. So you know, it like like any 453 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,920 retail business, right? It's around, you know what 454 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,520 tactics can you deploy that are aligned with your you know, your 455 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,000 your brand and your strategy to drive the right kind of like 456 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,720 unit economics for like to make the business work. 457 00:20:24,440 --> 00:21:28,680 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest challenges I 458 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,440 find and I know you guys have had some challenges with this as 459 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,640 well as how, as you say, how you present that like is it a 460 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,200 bundle? Is it a make your own? 461 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,440 Is it a predefined pack? Like it's complicated, isn't it? 462 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,200 And it's certainly on things even Shopify doesn't make it 463 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,080 easy to go let's have 3 bundling options and do an ABC test 464 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,520 because it's like it's the core engine of Shopify pumping out 465 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,520 multiple products, single product that's got multiple in 466 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,600 it or multiple SKUs, but like in the warehouse if they order one 467 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,640 pack. Need 5 skews to all decrease by 468 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,320 one in quantity. Like it is complicated, isn't 469 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,480 it, to try and actually make that happen on anywhere 470 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,760 platform? Yeah, promotional engines are so 471 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,760 much more complicated than people realize. 472 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,000 And you know whether it's order level or product, what the 473 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,040 inclusions, exclusions are, what that looks like from a 474 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,640 customer's perspective, It is a fairly sophisticated multi 475 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,720 layered promotional engine. And you're right, it doesn't 476 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,960 come straight out-of-the-box actually with shop or most 477 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,040 commerce platforms. And so, you know, like so often 478 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,320 then I find that actually these are the nuts and bolts of what a 479 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,440 brand or a business needs from its commerce platform as well. 480 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,000 And there's lots of, it's easy to be distracted by new and 481 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,840 shiny AI and MLS actually, so often it's how do the operations 482 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,600 work? How do the swatches display? 483 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,760 What's the sort orders of the PLPS? 484 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,320 This is the stuff that really matters to merchants. 485 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,360 And it's interesting because when we re platformed, we 486 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,160 actually did a bit of work around this because previously 487 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,280 we were displaying or offering static bundles, so effectively 488 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,760 just like 5 white T-shirts. And then with the work where we 489 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,280 landed, we were able to actually mix and match across prints, 490 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,640 planes and stripes. And that's been really good for 491 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,040 us because we know that TML technology has got fast 492 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,800 capability around print on demand. 493 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,160 And by offering customer that choice, we found around 2/3 of 494 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,920 all orders into multi buy mix and match across planes, stripes 495 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,080 and prints. So if you get it right, it can 496 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,720 be a really great thing for the business and consumers. 497 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,800 But yeah, it's definitely more of a head scratcher than I think 498 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,520 a lot of people realise. Yeah. 499 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,440 And I think just the flip side of what you just said, if you 500 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,960 get it wrong, the amount of customers and like I, I, I even 501 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,880 before we we start recording this, I was flicking through 502 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,720 Microsoft Clarity for one of our clients And the amount of like 503 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,160 you just see their mouse move or the scrolling get frantic or 504 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,760 some rage clicks and you're like, they're asking the WTF 505 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,520 question right now. What the heck is this thing? 506 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,920 And we've we've seen it on so many sites where it gets so 507 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,320 complicated. I've seen some really good 508 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,520 instances actually of like where it's like shop the look and it 509 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,720 actually has an outline of a person or like on the left and 510 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,600 the right are all the items and even a mobile. 511 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,800 It can look really, really neat. Or you can actually just have 512 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,720 like a black and white mannequin on the screen and you're kind of 513 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,360 adding items to create a look and then you shop the whole 514 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,160 thing. But I think your, your bundling 515 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,280 teaser are good. And it's even the wording. 516 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,160 I know we've never spoken about it, but I see it changing 517 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,640 regularly. So I know you guys are testing 518 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,640 it and testing like actually, what is the right wording to go, 519 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,960 OK, you know, start this, this comes as a bundling pack of five 520 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,720 if you want it. And you can choose your pack 521 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,000 because even the way I've just described it, there is quite 522 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,080 wordy, quite complicated. And going back to what I said 523 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,840 earlier, like you want it to come across in a couple of 524 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,400 seconds. But I think that again, having 525 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,120 that capability in the back end to be able to print on demand is 526 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,000 so powerful. But I mean, what, what instance 527 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,120 are we on now of like the, the kind of bundling? 528 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,040 I mean, you've, you've been here what, a year now? 529 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,800 And you must be on like the 3rd or 4th instance of it since 530 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,880 since joining just testing testing testing. 531 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,120 Yeah, and it's, it's, it's 2.0 as well because I did a lot of 532 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,680 this stuff at Team Alourian where, you know, the four for 533 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,040 100 type shirts deal was a big part of that industry as well. 534 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,680 So yeah, it's, it's a proposition that I definitely 535 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,040 can't get away from at the moment. 536 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,240 It's but you know, it's just, it's classic experimentation 537 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,480 principles, right? Test to learn, you know, 538 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,680 ruthlessly. I always say the number one KPI 539 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,960 is how many tests you're getting out the door. 540 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,680 And you know, some will work, some won't work. 541 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,520 But you know, test, test aggressively and multiply is no 542 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,520 different to anything else really in in that sense. 543 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,320 Yeah. Yeah. 544 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,320 And if it's always talk about it, we did a big test on the 545 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,520 product pages recently, didn't we? 546 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,800 And I'd say we did it the opposite way to weigh most 547 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,360 brands do. But it's been really effective 548 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,440 where we basically tested everything in one go and now 549 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,000 we're going to go back and test like removing one or two of the 550 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,800 things to see which ones had the biggest impact by we're almost 551 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,440 testing to see what drops rather than what goes up now. 552 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,800 But it was it was kind of in a slightly just like new sites 553 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,200 out. Let's just go gung ho and put 554 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,400 everything in every ideas. On the table and let's create 555 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,760 one version with all of it. But it's been quite effective 556 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,040 actually doing it that way, hasn't it? 557 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,760 Yeah, it has. I mean, normally I would adopt 558 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,880 the classic kind of CRO principles, right, which just 559 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,360 holds as many variables as you can level and change one thing, 560 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:06,520 right? And that definitely is you know 561 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,800 from a pure perspective best practice, however, you know 562 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,520 scale up business moving quite fast. 563 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,280 We made a lot of changes with the PDP change because frankly 564 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,520 we were still in a migration mindset. 565 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,440 It was kind of part of the digital transformation that we 566 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,040 went through in that quarter. So when we re platformed the 567 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,000 launch of Shopify in July, there were frankly some things on the 568 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,560 PDP that because we moved so fast, we took an MVP approach 569 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,280 to. So when we come then to redesign 570 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,960 the PDP in August, we were prepared to make grander changes 571 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,440 and go more quickly than we might have done otherwise, just 572 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,280 because we were still going through such a big kind of 573 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,120 transformation project. But yeah, like for sure, it's 574 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:53,680 been, you know, it was primarily a design change and it's been 575 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,520 really successful for us, right. So we've got a lot of the 576 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,360 branding in. We started telling some of the 577 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,600 product USPS much better. And you know, we've got a lot of 578 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,200 key commercial kind of like buttons above the fold. 579 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,720 And it's made, yeah, it's made a big impact across all devices. 580 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,600 It's been really good for us. Yeah, yeah. 581 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,120 And I think it's one of the few times, and I say it's openly on 582 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,320 the podcast, one of the few times where we've almost worked 583 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,480 in a sort of like, you know, the phrase of like, if today was 584 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,040 your last day, what would you do? 585 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,640 We've been doing that kind of from the get go and it's been 586 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,560 really effective. It's been a lot lesser cut, the 587 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,360 kind of like the clean cut. Hello corporate client. 588 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,960 Let's have a conversation with your 50 marketing people about 589 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,800 what we stand for and we're going to change 6 pixels on the 590 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,800 entire screen in one go and see what happens. 591 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,200 And whereas with you guys, it's like actually, if we can see 592 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,240 data to support, let's RIP up the whole branding and 593 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,400 everything. Well, I'm not saying do it. 594 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,280 I'm saying test it. And, and I love that approach 595 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,600 from you of like, there's no such thing as a bad idea. 596 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,040 And especially if we've got data to go, people are trying to 597 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,480 click on this thing and they can't, it's not clickable. 598 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,160 Let's make it clickable and think about the journey of what 599 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,720 does the sizing guide look like? Or actually, should we have a, 600 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,240 you know, we've got 2 delivery pages. 601 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,320 Should we have one? Should we have one returns page? 602 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,960 And, and, and just for your benefit as well, James, anyone 603 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,240 listening like I, I know we've been working together long time. 604 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,040 I haven't written any of this stuff out. 605 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,600 It's just, I just, I do genuinely love that kind of like 606 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,240 like let's try something approach and we're just 607 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,400 constantly trying things. We've probably learnt more. 608 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,760 About your business in the first sort of three to six months than 609 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,200 we learnt with any client in the first three to six years just 610 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,000 purely by changing things but but keeping the core the same. 611 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,800 And I think that is a key component, isn't it? 612 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,480 Yeah, completely. You know, it's one of the things 613 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,880 that I love about this space, right. 614 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,680 You know, being in a scale up business and frankly, there is 615 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,360 not another team sitting in love of building somewhere else 616 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,760 doing, you know, doing the work. If you're not doing it, it's not 617 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,760 happening. And you know, I love the, you 618 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,960 know, the sleeves rolled up and get on it. 619 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,240 And it's interesting because you kind of touch upon the data LED 620 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,880 approach and you know, I'm very much an advocate of that. 621 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,480 And having said that, however, you know, like whether it's data 622 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,960 or evidence based approach, you know, in this scale up, well, 623 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,840 you that doesn't always exist either. 624 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,520 And so, you know, if there's, if there's logic and reason behind 625 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,440 something and data evidence isn't available, then, you know, 626 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,800 we're prepared to get on with it and move fast as well. 627 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,440 So yeah, definitely one of the one of the traits of work and 628 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040 smaller businesses that I, you know, that I really enjoy. 629 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Absolutely, absolutely. And I guess with the first thing 630 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,360 I thought with the CRO test is if you haven't got data, use 631 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,080 logic and reason and create some data. 632 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,560 And that's what the CRO test tells you is what's actually 633 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,280 happened. And I love that. 634 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,440 I want to finish for the last sort of five to 10 minutes on a 635 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,760 bigger, bigger picture topic. We're talking about some really 636 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,440 minute things, but really powerful things for the 637 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,520 business. And you've obviously been in a 638 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,520 number of scale UPS before. You've been managing director, 639 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,440 marketing director, loads of other titles over the years and 640 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,800 a load of other responsibilities and you've grown. 641 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,720 I mean, the figures I've I do have on a piece of paper in 642 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,640 front of me is from 8 million to 20 million. 643 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,000 There was no context to this question as to which business 644 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,720 that's in or or whereabouts it was. 645 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,600 But what are some of the fundamental principles that 646 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,080 once, once people's businesses really do start, get to start to 647 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680 get going, how do you keep that momentum up? 648 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,040 How do you get from like 2 or 3 million up to 8? 649 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,400 How do you get from 8:00 to 20? How do you get from 20 to 50? 650 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880 And I appreciate there's, you know, the politicians answer of 651 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,360 depends, but what are some of the key principles that you've 652 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,280 stuck to over your career or learnt over the years doing 653 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,240 this? Yeah, it's a great question. 654 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,280 I guess to to keep it fairly prompt, I think less sexy. 655 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,080 But operations is key. If you haven't got the 656 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,080 operations backbone in place that can scale as you as your 657 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,680 business grows, you know, you're not going, it's not going to 658 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,720 work. So, you know, you're making sure 659 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,880 that you've got, you know, operations, whether it's supply 660 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,720 chain fulfillment, like warehousing, like the team, you 661 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,760 know, your operations is absolute key to your success. 662 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,960 And if you don't get it right, you're going to let customers 663 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,240 down and and you know, that's going to come back to bite you. 664 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,360 So I would say starting with operations is very, very 665 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,800 important. And then ultimately, we kind of 666 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,440 touched upon it earlier is marketing, you know, if you're 667 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,520 not going to get, you know, marketing right? 668 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,320 And I mean that end to end, you know, what's your strategy? 669 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,880 What do you look like? What do you feel like? 670 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,000 What's your visual identity? You know, I don't believe you 671 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,960 can win today unless you're able to scale creatively. 672 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,200 So, you know, getting the right quality diversity and scowling 673 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,320 your creatives across all the different kind of creative 674 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,080 approaches, some scrappy, some quality statics, videos, gifts, 675 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,040 animation, it really is D to C and social platforms are really 676 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,200 attention arbitration. And to do that well, you have to 677 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,080 have creative that works. And that's a really, really key 678 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,640 part of marketing. So yeah, I would say operations 679 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,760 needs to work, get your marketing right. 680 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,240 And then thinking through your people strategy alongside, 681 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,280 alongside your business or as part of your business. 682 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,280 Because ultimately, you know, it's a, it's a people and it's a 683 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,680 talent battlefield today. And you need good people who are 684 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,600 going to be there with you right away through the right. 685 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,880 Absolutely, absolutely. And I think with the operations 686 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,040 especially, the first thing I thought of there, and I'd use 687 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,080 this phrase, I've never used it with you guys, but I use it with 688 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,960 clients a lot, is if something's not working and you're telling 689 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,040 us to make you more sales and grow stuff, we don't want to 690 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,600 scale a problem. So like we will start to grow 691 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,400 stuff, but you go and fix that thing. 692 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,400 And we've certainly had, I mean, we've had clients over the years 693 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,400 where like we've reported back to the end of the month and 694 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,000 gone, guys, ROI is almost doubled. 695 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,760 Could you believe it? Like it's looking so good. 696 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,760 Year on year it's up, Month on month it's up. 697 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,120 And they're like, Oh yeah, but we're selling an item that costs 698 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,720 us more to ship than what our margin on the item is. 699 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:30,960 And you're like, for fuck's sake. 700 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,040 You know, like I don't normally swear on the podcast, but that 701 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,480 is one that will kick me off where it's like, that wasn't 702 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,720 communicated or exactly as you say about the operational bit. 703 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,920 We haven't, they didn't sort the Courier part of that item. 704 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,480 So the business wasn't bulletproof and a bullet's now 705 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,120 struck us. And we we do have a bit of an 706 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,160 issue here. Yeah. 707 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,080 And it's, it's created the amount of times I've seen 708 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,400 businesses, frankly ask for parties or agencies questions 709 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,000 that need to be answered internally is quite scary. 710 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,840 And you know, that stuff starts like that. 711 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,680 Control starts from within. You know, it really is the 712 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,200 business responsibility to know what products and channels are 713 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,120 priorities and that work. And frankly, you know, I would 714 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,200 say the number one KPI on a Monday morning for trade is on 715 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,600 time in full. You know, what does that 716 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,760 customer experience look like? You know, if your marketing 717 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,360 agency are doing a great job and you're, you know, you're selling 718 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,720 the product, but what does that last mile, you know, experience 719 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,800 look like for customers? If that's not working, then you 720 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,560 haven't got a sustainable business. 721 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,640 So yeah, that's really, really important. 722 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,680 Yeah, I think a good trick with that actually is if you've got 723 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,520 multiple review platforms and let's say, let's talk about the 724 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,920 elephant in the room and it's Trustpilot. 725 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,080 Everyone has Trustpilot but refuses to pay for it because 726 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,080 it's so flippant expensive. So if you're using another 727 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,360 platform, I suggest go on Trustpilot because people will 728 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,560 only go and leave you reviews on Trustpilot when they just want 729 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,840 to have a moan. And Trustpilot looks like a good 730 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,120 forum where everyone's moaning about you. 731 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,200 Obviously you can send some customers too on the free plan 732 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,040 and kind of, you know, mitigate that risk of that star rating 733 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,520 being too low, but have a look most importantly at what 734 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,240 customers are saying when they're not happy and see where 735 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,320 that lands. Is it the, Oh, I didn't get the 736 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,520 offer I saw in the advert in the end, so I didn't buy from these 737 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,159 guys or I was a bit disappointed only bought one item, but I was 738 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:12,080 told I would get 4 for the price of three and didn't. 739 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,600 So I just bought 1. You know, all the actually the 740 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,600 when my item arrived and a good friend of mine called Brett, who 741 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,440 he was very senior at Debenhams for years in customer service 742 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,280 and and marketing. And he said that they were 743 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,920 getting complaints, for example, that the products were arriving 744 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,960 smelling of smoke and he was like what they shouldn't be. 745 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,159 So he followed a product from the warehouse all the way to the 746 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:36,199 customer involved a flight from London to Edinburgh overnight 747 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,400 and like landed in Edinburgh, followed it and turned out he 748 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,080 got in the van with the Courier and he got in there and it's 749 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,600 stank of smoke. And he was like that last mile, 750 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,360 as we call it, the last mile smelt of smoke. 751 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,320 And I think it's, it's so important that a read the 752 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,440 reviews, but be like, like you guys do quite a bit. 753 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,159 Like you talk to customers, don't you? 754 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,120 And ask them like, just be frank with us. 755 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,440 Tell us what's rubbish because we want to fix it because we 756 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,760 want you to be a happy customer for life. 757 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,160 So like, tell us to fix that thing. 758 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,000 Yeah, completely. You know, when I joined that 759 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,200 rapid movie, first thing we did was customer survey and we do 760 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,840 that minimum twice a year now. You know, it's not rocket 761 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,600 science, right? Like listen to your customers. 762 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,000 You know how many businesses don't listen to customer 763 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,400 services? It's you know, in many ways it 764 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,920 is the most important function you have, you know, the rich 765 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,320 insight that comes from that team. 766 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,280 If you do it well, it's a listening vehicle. 767 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,080 And you know, when we were when we re platformed that, you know, 768 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,320 every day was a, you know, a 1015 minute stand up. 769 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,800 You know what, what insights are coming from customer services. 770 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,040 That was really what drove our backlog and our prioritization 771 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,840 in terms of what to fix, what do we move on to. 772 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,520 And it's interesting you touched on returns as well. 773 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:44,800 There is returns is the Achilles heel of Modern Apparel DTC and 774 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,480 much of it 80% of it probably there's not an awful lot you can 775 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,720 do, but a 1% reduction in return rate often is a lot better to 776 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,320 the bottom line than a 1% increase in sales. 777 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,040 And so even if you can and make 20% improvements to your 778 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,600 returns, then that's a massive opportunity to get after it. 779 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,720 And one project I did in the past was triangulating product 780 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:11,920 returns data with online reviews and from a natural language 781 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,200 processing perspective, finding out actually where do you have 782 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,200 color issues, for example, on site. 783 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,480 So if you've got one color option that's over indexed and 784 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,640 the return rate versus the style, well, actually see if you 785 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,480 can find that information in terms of what customers are 786 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,360 saying about the color of the product on site versus what 787 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,520 arrived. And so there are ways. 788 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:34,080 To navigate this, but yeah, at, at the core for sure listen to 789 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,320 customers in every way that you can. 790 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,240 Yeah, absolutely. And we, we do a lot with SEO as 791 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,400 well. It's like the SEO copy we want 792 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,760 on a product page or on your returns policy or on the home 793 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,680 page. We want it to be breaking down 794 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,760 all the barriers to purchase. So it's great when we get 795 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,960 someone who does eventually go over the, you know, over the 796 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,960 threshold, pays some money, orders a product. 797 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,880 But equally, I think trying to understand what people are 798 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,320 asking, like pre purchase is just as important. 799 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,680 But I remember some of the feedback we're getting from 800 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,680 those stand ups and you calling me saying like, does this make 801 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,280 sense? Like I'm getting this from Cus 802 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,360 yeah, yeah, I don't know. But let's change it anyway and 803 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,360 see what happens. And the conversion rate, like it 804 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,640 dropped when the new site launched. 805 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,520 It always happens. Everything kind of falls off a 806 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:12,840 Cliff. But we've been recovering, 807 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,360 recovering, recovering and the recovery is still going on, 808 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,320 which is fantastic as in it's still growing, but it's growing 809 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,440 now. I think because, and one of the 810 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,640 big reasons we obviously move was to get, you know, everybody 811 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,120 listening is obviously an advocate of Shopify. 812 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,080 It's the name of the podcast, but we moved to Shopify so we 813 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,360 could change some of these things. 814 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,640 But the point I want to make, and it'd be good to get your 815 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,200 thoughts on this as well as just because a customer says like, 816 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,840 oh, the Swatch doesn't match, doesn't mean you have to change 817 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,240 it. I think the point which you made 818 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:39,760 is like, you just got to go and check it, try and work out 819 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,360 what's going on here and you might add something to it, but 820 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,680 not actually change the colour of the T-shirt and go looks 821 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,600 pretty accurate to me. Like, you know, do they maybe 822 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,040 wash it with some bleach or something? 823 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,360 I don't know like, but it looks pretty accurate to me. 824 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,080 So let's see, let's ask some other customers or maybe even 825 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,520 pay for some research for some people do it, you know, blind 826 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,600 testing to to have a go. Yeah, completely. 827 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,120 And it's the same with customer services. 828 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,040 You know, I I really value like their input, but the truth is I 829 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,480 don't execute 100% of what comes out of that team after there 830 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,280 are, you know, there's a balance to be strucked around 831 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,760 commerciality and customer centricity. 832 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,040 And you know, and that's just the reality of running a 833 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,320 business. You know, most things reaction 834 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,960 for the right reasons, but it's not a hard and fast rule. 835 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,960 So yeah, for sure, you know, that's why you need hopefully a 836 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,640 wise head to make some of these judgement calls. 837 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,760 Yeah, yeah, one, one of our clients did put on a customer 838 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,760 survey while ago. Would you buy the product more 839 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,520 often or more products if they were cheaper? 840 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,360 100% yes. And it was like what a terrible 841 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,640 question. Plus the customers that have now 842 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,640 answered that are going, oh, this brand might lower their 843 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,520 prices because they asked me the other day about would you buy 844 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,520 more if the price was cheaper? And of course I said yes, bad 845 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,200 question. What you really want to find out 846 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,600 is like is the perceived value of this product what we're 847 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,000 charging in the customer's eyes. So when you ask about price, 848 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,560 it's not we're changing price, you might, but actually it's the 849 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,320 perceived value. And I think some of the things 850 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,760 you mentioned earlier about actually organic cotton costs 851 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,600 more and bringing that to the forefront of the the marketing 852 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,040 and going right. Do we now get a better 853 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,600 conversion rate? And could we actually increase 854 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,240 our prices slightly now that we've told people what the value 855 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,360 of this product is compared to somebody else? 856 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,880 I think not so much for you guys, but it's, it's even more 857 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,400 classic in some retailers where you're selling the same brand as 858 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,360 lots of other retail businesses. And I know you've worked in, in 859 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,760 businesses like this before. There's a whole different 860 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,000 dynamic, isn't there then of like, OK, we've all got the same 861 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120 products that some customers are just going to buy on price and 862 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,840 we know we're not the cheapest, so we've got to fight on 863 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,680 something else. Yeah, completely. 864 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,440 You know, the old maxim or formula is quantity equals 865 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,200 sorry, value equals quality times times price, right? 866 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,240 And I think that's true. And and you know that quality or 867 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:52,760 quality perception really is in the eye of the beholder, right? 868 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,160 And how the how the retailer communicates that value, whether 869 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,880 it starts and pre purchase to then what their purchase 870 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,360 experience looks like and how that out of box experience lands 871 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,640 and how that product washes and every interaction that the 872 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,720 customer has with the brand thereafter. 873 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,920 You know, that's all part of the quality, kind of. 874 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,880 Part of the equation and then you know, obviously you have to 875 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,840 be competitive on price. I'm a big believer that you most 876 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,880 businesses, not all businesses because it's dependent on your 877 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,480 customer and operating model, but most businesses you need to 878 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,680 have a mix across the good, better, best spectrum. 879 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,960 So like for Rapinoe, I you know, I think it's important that we 880 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,320 have a competitive, competitive front end and we also have great 881 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,040 high quality products as an exit. 882 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,120 But the bulk for our business would then be in the middle for 883 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,320 better because that as a spread works for the business and 884 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,720 allows us to attract the right amount of customers that the 885 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,320 business needs as well. Yeah, yeah, and it's a classic 886 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,440 model, isn't it? If you buy any tool online, it's 887 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,920 like, here's the cheapest bit of software, here's the medium, the 888 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,200 Goldilocks, the recommended one, they often say they recommend 889 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:58,440 and it's always bigger on the screen. 890 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,800 And then here's the expensive 1. So like you don't need, you 891 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,960 don't need to pay that much. Don't worry. 892 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,040 You're going to get way more value than the cheap one. 893 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:06,120 And actually the price difference is like 80 dollars, 894 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,840 $90.00 or $100. And you want the 90, The 90 is 895 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,480 great, but all the hundreds actually 700, like you want the 896 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,760 91. The 91 is great. 897 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,360 It's $10 more, you get twice as many features, but it's nothing 898 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,600 like the $700.00 one and almost calling it something that 899 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,480 doesn't even exist. So like sometimes it's like the 900 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,360 agency license or something, which even the agencies don't 901 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,080 use, which I can vouch for. But yeah, it works really well. 902 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,120 And well, look, James, absolutely amazing. 903 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,360 I've, I might have written more notes than normal on my on my 904 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,840 sheet, but so much value. So yeah, I want to say a massive 905 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,920 thank you on behalf all our listeners and myself for joining 906 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,120 us today and for sharing so much. 907 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:38,920 Thank you. Brilliant. 908 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,800 Thanks Nick. Enjoy catching up with you. 909 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,640 Good, good. And for everybody listening, 910 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,800 back again next Friday, thanks for tuning in. 911 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,720 Hit subscribe if you haven't. Leave us a review and we'll see 912 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:47,880 you hopefully next week.