1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,800 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,680 technologies, project and people are driving decentralisation and 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,960 the blockchain revolution. I'm Felix. 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,840 So today I'm speaking with Simon Harman with CEO and founder of 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,200 Chain Flip. Chain Flip is a cross chain, 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,200 decentralised exchange and messaging protocol. 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,680 Welcome to Epicentre, Simon. So glad to have you here. 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,400 Likewise, Felix, thanks very much for having me. 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,000 Right. So I introduced it a little bit 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,280 like what Chaflip is already. We're going to obviously talk 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,400 about that a lot. But as it's customary on 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,360 Epicentre, we like to start a little bit with the history of 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,160 the the guest, how they found their way into crypto. 14 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,960 I think for you it is quite an interesting journey with like 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,720 many contributions already to like cryptography and crypto 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,520 economics in general. So, like, yeah, why don't you 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,680 tell us a little bit how you fell into the crypto rabbit 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,560 hole? Yeah, sure. 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,960 You know, crypto has been a part of my entire adult life. 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,000 I just turned 27, but I bought Bitcoin in high school in my 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,120 last year. Wow, that's coming on for a 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,320 decade now. That's crazy. 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:24,080 And I can't believe that. Yeah, I guess me and my best 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,280 friend were very interested in politics and economics and 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,200 things at a very young age and. For some reason, you know, also 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,200 being very into video games and such and developed a lot of 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,840 stuff around Minecraft and other games as well, a lot of websites 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,600 and things like that. That was kind of my high school 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,480 job. So I don't know, Bitcoin just 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,800 kind of spoke to us when we were young and through all the money 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,560 I was making from website development into Bitcoin for 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,520 reasons which elude me even today. 33 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,840 So. But you know that obviously 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,000 kicked off a a massive journey you know started university and 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Etherium came out and this margin trading on poloniaks at 36 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,639 18 years old and you know this the crazy you know things for 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,040 young people to be doing I guess but we were kind of crazy so it 38 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,360 makes sense but I guess you know my journey as a crypto founder I 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,080 guess really started after university when I turned when I 40 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,520 was 21 and. Was very interested in the 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,760 privacy space, especially at the time. 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Obviously still am. But yeah, the idea of, you know, 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,560 deploying blockchain networks to do stuff off chain, so to speak, 44 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,800 was always something that I thought was quite appealing and 45 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,400 something that people weren't really doing, especially at that 46 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,840 time. And so founded a project called 47 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,560 Loki, now called Oxen, where we spent, we have spent the last 48 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:57,560 almost six years developing. The main product that we've been 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,120 developing on top of this network is called Session to 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,880 secure messaging. App uses similar encryption to 51 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,400 Signal, but it's all deployed on a fully decentralized network 52 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,480 backed up by about 1200 independently run service notes. 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,480 They're called black validators, basically. 54 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,200 And we have like this shotted distributed storage system and I 55 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,360 think we're coming up on like 5 million downloads now, I think 56 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,720 about 800,000 monthly active users. 57 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,040 So, you know, after many years of development and a lot of 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:35,360 pain, now finally starting to see this get adopted in all 59 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,200 sorts of crazy ways, there was, you know, the Iranian protest 60 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,200 movement last year. That really kicked off the the 61 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,560 adoption of of Session and you know getting random emails from 62 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,200 like the Swiss government saying oh hey guys, I just wanted to 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,800 say like we're all, we're all using this and enjoying it. 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,400 So thanks, keep up the good work, which yeah, after so many 65 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,920 years of developing in the bear market and you know having a lot 66 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,000 of struggles to go through as a result is you know really 67 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,920 awesome to see. I'm not involved on a day-to-day 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,000 basis anymore in in that project. 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,520 Still being run by my Co founders Chris Key and Josh down 70 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,320 in Melbourne, Australia, but a couple years ago I moved here to 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,520 Berlin to take on chain Flip. And you know, it's another good 72 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,400 example of a project which although is, you know, heavily 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,720 dependent on blockchain technology, you know, we're 74 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,280 doing a lot of stuff off chain, so to speak, to create a product 75 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:38,360 that so far has eluded the space for many, many years, you know, 76 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,240 ever since Ethereum became a thing. 77 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,600 And alternative block chains as well like even like wired stuff. 78 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,800 I remember these sorts of conversations happenings like 79 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,280 for you know for a space that's so oriented around 80 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,440 permissionless money. You know why are we using all 81 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,280 these exchanges to do all the value transfer within the space 82 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,080 And you know what what potential other solutions are out there. 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,320 You know Bitcoin, your theory and swaps is kind of you know, I 84 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,280 consider it to be the Holy Grail of of the space and. 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,720 Although there has been some good progress in the last couple 86 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,040 years, you know a lot of the time it's been some weird 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,040 wrapped token thing where you know you have this fragmented 88 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,120 liquidity and this bridging risk and stuff and pretty low 89 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,360 adoption. So yeah, I guess that's sort of 90 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,120 a hopefully a pretty succinct summary of how we got here and 91 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,600 what links it all. But yeah, as you say, it's been. 92 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,560 An incredible journey from start to boss office, not over yet, 93 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,200 far from it. But yeah, the cryptography side 94 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,520 of things has always been very interesting, particularly in the 95 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,640 privacy space. I was really really good 96 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,320 introduction into that, diving straight into the deep end, 97 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,680 building off the back of Manero based blockchain which has some 98 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,240 pretty crazy stuff in it. And now you know this sort of 99 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,600 core of this protocol relies on threshold signature schemes, In 100 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,200 particular a scheme called Frost, which is a. 101 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:13,200 Signature based system which allows us to create essentially 102 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,160 wallets on a bunch of different block chains and it's all 103 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,640 controlled by the validating network which we've capped at 104 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,680 150 could go higher but 150 validators, signing 105 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,720 transactions, doing key Gen., rotating the keys, rotating 106 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,720 funds through these vaults we call them and that allows us to 107 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,520 achieve a kind of architecture that. 108 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,640 The centralized exchange is kind of figured out by default. 109 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,080 I guess you have several block, several block chains out there. 110 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,200 You just create a wallet on each of those and then you sort of do 111 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,920 the accounting and the swapping and the trading separately from 112 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,440 that. So you settle using this 113 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,320 threshold signature scheme. But then you do all of the the 114 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,520 accounting separately and what they would call a matching 115 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,800 engine. In our case it takes the form of 116 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,400 something called the JOTAMM, which I guess we'll talk about 117 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,480 later probably, but. Yeah. 118 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:06,920 I don't know. Is that a good summary? 119 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,480 I'm. I'm on the right chat. 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,680 Yeah, very happy. You already delve into some 121 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,320 topics that we want to like go into some more I guess. 122 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,640 So you've been working on this since since around when you said 123 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,840 like quite a big ride like Che Flips been in? 124 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,760 We we started doing research into the topic at the start of 125 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,920 2020. I mean fair context, you know at 126 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,440 at the time oxen was. You know, doing OK, but Bitcoin 127 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,720 just dipped to $3000 at the beginning of the pandemic. 128 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,720 And you know, we were kind of concerned that we weren't really 129 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,400 going to be able to continue with the level of resources that 130 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,240 we'd had. We've been building throughout 131 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,400 the bear market on what we'd raised very early 2018. 132 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,680 But you know, at at that time, for those that were around, 133 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,640 you'd probably remember. How dire things seemed at at 134 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,280 that moment in time. So we were keen to expand what 135 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,720 we were doing and try and find an angle that could sustain 136 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,920 everything and luckily that wasn't necessary in the end, but 137 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,760 it did give rise to this idea of chain flip. 138 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,840 So yeah, we started researching. I think the first version of the 139 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,000 white paper for this came out in July of 2020, which was right 140 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,360 around the same time that Uni swap and the whole yield farming 141 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,520 thing in the D Fire summer. Kicked off. 142 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,400 So we were looking into this even before then, right. 143 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,160 Yeah, I think that's that's actually very interesting 144 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,799 because now I guess that was actually before all the like 145 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,120 cross chain stuff really happened with all that ones. 146 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,039 And you know like I guess the concepts from Ethereum being 147 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,560 ported over to like other chains and then then like sort of these 148 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:51,120 systems interacting and how we do, we do have a bunch of of 149 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,360 bridges around, right. But I guess you know like your 150 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:59,800 network sort of expands on that and gets rid of some of the 151 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,240 problems that some of these early bridges have. 152 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,560 Maybe we can like yeah start there again. 153 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:06,480 I think you you already mentioned you you have this 154 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,440 threshold signature scheme. Can you talk a little bit about 155 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,200 how how it works and like what are the benefits over, you know, 156 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,280 maybe some alternatives of of bridges that are being deployed 157 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,120 right now, you know what's what's the, what's the core 158 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,840 issue that that dissolves? Yeah, sure. 159 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,600 I guess like. As a fundamental principle, we 160 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,040 came into this thinking about the entire vertical of native 161 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,800 cross chain swaps. You know what what what is the 162 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,920 user experience that we're targeting here. 163 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,360 And and you know that sort of informed all of the decisions 164 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,160 that we made in the protocol design and all of the updates 165 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,760 that we've made to it along the way as well. 166 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,160 But as you point out, you know there's been various forms of 167 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,920 bridges and and wrap tokens and things around for years now. 168 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,400 None of which have really proven to be, you know, 100% dominant 169 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,920 in any particular vertical. So you know, we've had a lot of 170 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,480 hacks because a lot of these were just pumped out by, you 171 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,920 know, random teams who either ran off with the money or built 172 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,920 them in a rush and you know, didn't do the necessary due 173 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,600 diligence. And I think to an extent that's 174 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,840 still very much happening today, although you know. 175 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,920 There has, there has been some consolidation thankfully, but 176 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,920 you know, wrapping a token in one place and and having it 177 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,920 being available and another is fine. 178 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,840 But the liquidity available on these alternative chains can be 179 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,560 very limited. You accept a lot of tail risk as 180 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,880 well and you know I don't think I need to explain how much 181 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,480 money's been lost doing this. It's extraordinary. 182 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,960 I think the closest equivalent protocol that you might compare 183 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,160 to Chain Flip, there's probably 2 that I would point out. 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,240 One would be Thor Chain who definitely paved the way for 185 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,480 this technology of of having this threshold signature scheme 186 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,040 based settlement system and then layering a trading system on top 187 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,240 of that. You know it's conceptually the 188 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,360 most similar to Chain Flip, although. 189 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,480 There are differences at every level between the two. 190 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,000 We don't share any any code or anything like that, but 191 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,640 conceptually that's pretty close. 192 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,360 And then the other one that I'd point out is probably Axola, 193 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,320 which allows you to breach U.S. dollars from one chain to 194 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,480 another. That's pretty much the only use 195 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,680 case for it at the moment and for cross chain messaging in 196 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:33,000 general. We haven't seen really anything 197 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,280 else pop up that people seem to be using in terms of the 198 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,560 interoperability category, which is a. 199 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,720 Word people love to throw around, but then in practice 200 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,120 falls short. Very often they too have a 201 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,960 decentralized validated network. They're sort of doing this, you 202 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,120 know, minting, burning Oracle thing. 203 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,440 They have Axel USD as a sort of middle step that allows the 204 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,520 minting and burning of USD balances from one place to 205 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,040 another. And then from there you can use 206 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,280 that to swap in and out of various assets through, you 207 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,960 know, the usual suspects you need, swap pancakes, swap so on 208 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,640 and so on. So you know there are now 209 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,720 solutions out there that are miles ahead of you know the more 210 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,560 traditional bridging technologies. 211 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,320 But still, there is definitely room for improvement in in 212 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,120 especially within the native swaps vertical itself, like for 213 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,160 example Bitcoin. You know you can do Bitcoin 214 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,520 swaps natively now through four chain, which is great. 215 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,360 The only downside is, you know, due to the market structure, you 216 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,560 do have to wait quite a long time for those to be processed. 217 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,000 You know, depending on the size of the swap, it can take hours 218 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,680 or sometimes even days depending on what you're trying to do. 219 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,840 And there's definitely improvements that can be made 220 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,520 there. And then anything outside the 221 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,080 EVM ecosystem is a bit of a black box. 222 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,880 You know, you have, you know, ICB within the Cosmos ecosystem 223 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,360 beginning in and out of. There's been a challenge until 224 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,920 recently. Bitcoin woefully undersupported. 225 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,080 It is a dinosaur protocol. I hate to say it, but you know, 226 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,520 working with a directly, you can clearly see how far we've come 227 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,320 from that original design and then the number of workarounds 228 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 you have to develop in order to be able to work with it in 229 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,040 something like this is not fun, but it is what it is. 230 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,760 Polka dot solana, you know, the list goes on. 231 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,720 File coin, you know, Telegram over network. 232 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,720 There's there's many, many examples of these sort of non 233 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,960 EVM or non less compatible EVM. It's not, it's not a one or the 234 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,280 other thing you know there really is a spectrum going on 235 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,840 here. But with such a diverse range of 236 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,640 blockchains out there and you know the size of some of the 237 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,280 assets in terms of the volume and the liquidity and and such 238 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,560 that you see in the centralized exchanges compared to the level 239 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:59,240 of support it has within D5 and within decentralized exchanges 240 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,360 generally. Is quite surprising and has 241 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,880 remained so ever since we started and long before that as 242 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,440 well. So yeah, I guess we can probably 243 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,040 dive a little bit into the architecture and talk more 244 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,720 rigorously about some of the components that enable this. 245 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,000 But I guess our end goal is that, you know, with one 246 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,600 transfer you can send funds from any wallet to any wallet and 247 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,920 receive the asset that you're looking for at. 248 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,240 Essentially A0 slippage price with you know a very minimal 249 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,000 bridging time as well. We've got some unannounced 250 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,680 features coming up around that which we're excited about. 251 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,960 I can't really talk too much about that, but you know the, I 252 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,400 guess the idea, the core idea is to repeat what Uniswap did for 253 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,960 Ethereum based assets. You know, before D5 Summer you 254 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,680 know all of the ERC 20 tokens were still pretty much 255 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,400 exclusively traded on centralised exchanges. 256 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,440 But you know this year even now even in this you know pretty 257 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,680 pretty bad market Eunice Wass been crashing Coinbase in terms 258 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,560 of volume. You know there's the, the 259 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,680 Etherium ecosystem has really stepped up and above beyond the 260 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,640 centralized exchanges in terms of convenience and speed and all 261 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,120 of that kind of stuff. As long as you can get that 262 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,120 pricing and that liquidity aspect right and you know make 263 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,440 it fairly straightforward, we believe we can also repeat a 264 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,080 similar. Level of adoption for assets 265 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,320 that are outside of the EVM ecosystem. 266 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:38,920 So, yeah, yeah, I think that the core here being sort of this 267 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,600 combination almost like native of the swap and the bridging and 268 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,920 like kind of thinking from that user perspective which which I 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,040 think will probably helps a lot like actually achieve that too. 270 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,240 And so that's also why I want to dive into, you also mentioned 271 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,320 already the first white paper was like kind of when UNISWAP 272 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,280 came out. Now the way I understand you 273 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,520 have this just in time liquidity protocol, right that's that's 274 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,840 sort of similar to to UNISWAP V3. 275 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,880 But I guess initially when you when you started Checkflip 276 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,800 UNISWAP V3 wasn't wasn't even the thing yet. 277 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,400 Did you already like sort of think in similar direction about 278 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,320 how like the liquidity provisioning should work or did 279 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,480 you later adopt the UNISWAP V3 kind of model? 280 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,000 And and maybe also like in general how how is do we have to 281 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,240 think about like chain flips, like decks, kind of as UNISWAP 282 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,920 V3 like native cross chain features or are there like other 283 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,600 differences? There are other differences. 284 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,840 I would probably most closely related to Uniswap XS proposed 285 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,120 intense feature which isn't even out yet. 286 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,320 Rather than UNISWAP V3, yeah, but you're right at the 287 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:55,240 beginning, you know UNISWAP V2 was out and you know it was it 288 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,680 it it'd been running for a couple of years, but it didn't 289 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,640 really have the liquidity necessary to, you know, have it 290 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,560 be widely adopted. But then D5 summer game and that 291 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,400 changed the game. Then UNISWAP V3 came out and 292 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,760 then after that we decided you know, rather than just do V3 293 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,640 which would have was an improvement. 294 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,839 But in this particular context, we thought we could go further 295 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:20,720 and so we developed this thing called the JITAMM. 296 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,839 So we were seeing with UNISWAP V3 this new type of MEV attack. 297 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,680 Quote UN quote, it's not really an attack because you know the 298 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:36,200 user wins, which is always nice, but essentially if you had a big 299 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,920 enough swap coming in on UNISWAP V3. 300 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,600 You could submit a Flashbots bundle where you could 301 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,880 essentially create an incredibly tight liquidity position around 302 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,160 the the market price of the asset. 303 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,440 So say it's like $1,000,000 swap, right. 304 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:58,000 You could set up a Flashbots bundle where you add a bunch of 305 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,920 liquidity at whatever price you like, basically whatever you can 306 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,680 get on finance and the prime brokers, OTC desk, everything 307 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,720 else. So you know you're basically 308 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,760 sourcing liquidity externally. Deploying that liquidity, then 309 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,320 you execute the swap and then you remove that liquidity. 310 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,960 So what you've essentially done is you've just front run all of 311 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,640 the other LP's and given the user a better price to win the 312 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,640 liquidity fee. And so that became very popular 313 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,840 very quickly for larger swaps. But because of the gas costs 314 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,040 involved, because of the bribery that you have to do to execute 315 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,360 that, you know the size of the swap has to be massive for that 316 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,440 to make sense. We realised, well you know, in 317 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,080 our context, because this is like a bridge and an Oracle and 318 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:50,440 an AMM all in one, because of the the delay in bridging, 319 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,280 everyone can know what swaps are coming. 320 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,760 So if you send one Bitcoin to be swapped into Chain Flip, you 321 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,880 know there it will take an hour for that deposit to confirm when 322 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,280 we're going to We'll. That won't be the case soon, but 323 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,680 we will ignore that for now. You don't need an hour to to do 324 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,280 this. You'd need, you know, a minute 325 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,200 at the top. You don't even need a minute for 326 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,040 the active LP's. You know, this is all done 327 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520 automatically, programmatically, but because you know it's 328 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,400 coming, you can essentially go, OK, well, you know, I'm willing 329 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,800 to offer X price on on Bitcoin, save 25K and there's another 330 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,480 liquidity provider who is also doing the same thing. 331 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,440 And then, well, I'm going to offer 25K and $2.00, you know 332 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,000 I'm going to beat. I'm going to beat you so. 333 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,480 You have this system where liquidity providers can submit 334 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,280 maker only limit orders on top of the the standard uni V3 335 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,760 pools. If you want to provide passive 336 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,160 liquidity you can and you know the the execution will move 337 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,720 through that liquidity where it can. 338 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,400 But these limit orders on top really supercharge the the 339 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,160 marketplace because it means that rather than depending on. 340 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:08,920 What is usually quite an inefficient pool structure, you 341 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,120 can have liquidity providers quoting in real time based on 342 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,440 global index liquidity. So effectively it means you get 343 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,000 0 slippage swaps. You wouldn't be able to get a 344 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,000 better price on any particular centralized exchange because 345 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,600 they that doesn't aggregate all the order books. 346 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,440 So at least it's a market order. So you know that's that's a 347 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,880 really cool feature and it's all nicely mathematically 348 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,760 integrated. We've we've forked Uni swap V3, 349 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,440 converted it into Python then ran some experiments and then 350 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,560 once we were happy with the design we then converted it into 351 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,480 Rust and deployed it in the in the state chain within the chain 352 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,600 flip ecosystem. So yeah you kind of have LP's 353 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,720 front running each other to offer you the best price. 354 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,320 It's kind of like an open OTC market for native cross chain 355 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,280 swaps which is pretty unique. I don't know of anyone else 356 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,760 doing it this particular way. COW swap kind of has a similar 357 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,800 thing going on, but again that's only single chain swaps and uni 358 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,920 swap. X intents will also have a 359 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,760 similar thing, but again single chain kind of auctions for 360 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,200 incoming flow. So yeah, hopefully that means 361 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,200 for users, you know, you can swap 200K worth of Bitcoin and 362 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,120 get the same if not better price than you would on Binance. 363 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,440 But it's all done completely decentralized. 364 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,720 You don't even, there's no accounts, you don't even sign up 365 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,120 for anything. There's no withdrawal delay or 366 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:34,920 anything like that. As soon as the swap is done, 367 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,880 that's it. Your tail risk is over, which 368 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,640 is, yeah, I think hopefully going to be very appealing to to 369 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,440 people. Yeah, super interesting. 370 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,960 Like I think I read somewhere in in your dogs that's this sort of 371 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,760 liquidity provision that just in time liquidity versus like as 372 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,920 reasoning has. Sort of been like 3% of the 373 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,480 volume in in 2022. Do you know if that number 374 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,080 actually went up in the meantime and and maybe I guess you 375 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,440 already sort of mentioned, is that mostly because so it's it's 376 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,320 like relatively low I guess still is that because of the the 377 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,360 cost on Ethereum like the gas fees and and sort of just not 378 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,120 enough people doing it and and or where do you expect it to go? 379 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,640 Do you think this will like go to 100% at some point or like? 380 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,920 Much larger like maybe, yeah. Well I think with UNISWAP X like 381 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,960 the intense infrastructure that they're building now does 382 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,120 exactly this. It allows, it creates a bit of 383 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,120 time and a bit of space and this sort of off chain system whereby 384 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,080 you know, market makers, liquidity providers, whatever 385 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,920 you want to call them can put forward a bid for incoming flow. 386 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,480 So this is not a radical idea, right. 387 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,280 This is this is something pretty widely understood in even in the 388 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,520 traditional finance world. The V3 AMM or just AM Ms. in 389 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,040 general are the strange thing that's occurring in the 390 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,800 industry, right That this is that's been the deviation from 391 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,840 the norm. But yeah, the reason why it's 392 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,840 not like 100% is because when you're doing a $50 swap, you 393 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,960 know to submit a Flash bots bundle in the 1st place to be 394 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,040 able to execute this kind of action costs. 395 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,960 I I don't actually know off the top of my head, but you know 396 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,800 it's it's significant, it's hundreds of dollars potentially 397 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,760 and you know you have to be able to clear enough in profit to 398 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,640 make that worthwhile. So the size of the swap has got 399 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,320 to be, you know, several $100,000 before it even makes 400 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,160 sense to even think about doing this kind of just in time 401 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,040 liquidity provision on Uni swap V3 again because of the gas 402 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,600 costs. But on chain flip, because we're 403 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,120 running in this app chain environment, the cost is 404 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:47,400 essentially 0. So you can, you can bid for this 405 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,560 flow with no downside risk and you know locally source in real 406 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,200 time from whatever market making software you happen to be 407 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,000 running. So for users, this is really 408 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,320 good because it means that even if I am doing a $50 swap, I'm 409 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,800 still going to get, you know, access to those same sort of 410 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:08,120 rates, which is exciting. Right, and and so just. 411 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,920 To clarify, I guess the, the liquidity providers or the 412 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,360 market makers or whatever we want to call them, they interact 413 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:19,200 with the chain, flip chain, state chain to like submit their 414 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,840 orders and how. How does that work in practice? 415 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,400 Like some API or yeah, it's called the LPAPI, very creative, 416 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,960 I know, but it's essentially just a blockchain client really. 417 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,200 And you can subscribe to it and you know you connect an account 418 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,760 to it. So you have some local keys, so 419 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,520 you you deposit funds into your LP account, so you send some 420 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,640 Bitcoin, you send some Etherium, you send some U.S. dollars, 421 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,000 whatever we used to say rather to the chamber protocol through 422 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,800 deposit channels, and then you have a free balance inside your 423 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,520 LP account. So really it's pretty much like 424 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,240 a centralized exchange in many ways, many of the same exact 425 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,240 same API calls. It's just you're dealing with it 426 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,800 through this wrapper that talks to a blockchain rather than 427 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,480 through an API that talks to some matching engine somewhere 428 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,440 on someone's server, right. So yeah, it's you can think of 429 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440 it like an exchange account, you know, if I want to provide the 430 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,640 quiddity, I, you know, send some money into the exchange and then 431 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,840 I can, you know, place orders against any particular pair, 432 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,000 then they'll the trades will take place and then I can settle 433 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,880 that later and and withdraw any of the assets that I have there. 434 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,400 So the LPAPI has many of the same things, you know, like 435 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,000 place order, cancel order, modify order, that sort of 436 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,760 thing, range orders as well as limit orders. 437 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,600 You know, deposit, withdraw, you know all the same sort of API 438 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,920 calls that you would make as a normal LP are available to you 439 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:50,720 as well as you know lots of data feeds like you know you can 440 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,560 also. The unique thing though is that 441 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,680 you you can subscribe to a list of incoming swaps, so you know 442 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,720 it'll actually pull information off the stage and to say OK, 443 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,240 there is a Bitcoin swap coming in this block which is estimated 444 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,160 to be around this sort of time at this size so that you know. 445 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,800 And then you can essentially automatically trigger a bid 446 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,480 against that using, you know whatever market making software 447 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,800 you happen to be using. So API basically in a Rust 448 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,520 ridden wrapper, which is fun. Right. 449 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,960 Yeah, that's awesome. And I think, I guess one. 450 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,080 Sort of complication I guess in this approach at least like from 451 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,520 what I understood is that you don't really know in advance as 452 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,600 the user how much slippage you're actually going to 453 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,280 experience in the end of your price. 454 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Can you talk a little bit about again why that is I guess and 455 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,800 how you're like sort of dealing with that or how how should, how 456 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,240 does the user interaction look, is it like? 457 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Basically like you give it some range of a price that can be 458 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,920 expected or or. How do you treat that for a 459 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,560 user? Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a 460 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,440 good question, right? Like you can't just read the 461 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,600 state of a pool and then, you know, pull a price from it, but 462 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,320 you can. These exact same thing is true 463 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,400 for you to swap, you know, by the time your swap is included 464 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,680 in a block and all of these transactions. 465 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,400 So adding, removing the query, the other swaps have taken place 466 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,160 before yours gets executed. The state of the pool has 467 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,560 changed the prices that people quote or not people but these 468 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,880 front ends quote that you see across defy actually have no 469 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,600 bearing on the final price you get. 470 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,160 And they don't factor in things like MEV and you know price risk 471 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 over a period of time or or whatever the case may be. 472 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,800 You know there there is no such thing as a guaranteed price with 473 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,760 on chain trades. It's just a reality. 474 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,360 Unless you place strict slippage limits, which people don't do 475 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,280 because they want their swap to go through. 476 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,720 So they set a 0.5% slippage limit or something like that, 477 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,400 and then you are you're essentially at risk of losing up 478 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,680 to 0.5% of the money. But people don't seem to care 479 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600 about that as long as there is some sort of slippage limit. 480 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,840 Which is why, although I don't think this is really going to 481 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,920 make any practical difference in 99.9% of cases we are actually 482 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,640 adding a feature now called fill or kill which allows you to set 483 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,240 a minimum price that. So we'll sit. 484 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,200 We'll actually simulate the swap on the chain at the moment of 485 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:33,200 execution so that we can make sure that if we are going to do 486 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,040 a swap for you that it is at a certain minimum price that 487 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,480 you're willing to accept. If not, we will revert it and 488 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,360 send it back to wherever it came from. 489 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,600 It does require a little bit more effort on the user side and 490 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,640 we can't do it in all cases, particularly where it's like a 491 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,680 we'll get into the cross chain messaging and things like that. 492 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,480 But if if it's one hop along a string of swaps that's coming to 493 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,840 or going coming from or going to some other bridge, some of the 494 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,640 chains, some of the, some of the decks, it's very composable in 495 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,400 that way. But if it is one step in a long 496 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120 string of steps, you know we can't always guarantee that we 497 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,720 can go backwards, right? We can't always send back the 498 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,120 money because we don't necessarily know where it came 499 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,160 from. We have an address, but it might 500 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,800 be Binance or it might be a smart contract that you don't 501 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,480 have control over or something like that. 502 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,120 So you know, there's a lot of edge cases that we have to 503 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,120 handle here, which is why we didn't set slippage limits 504 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,920 originally because that means you have to provide a refund 505 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,840 address and you have to provide an origin asset and things might 506 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,640 get stuck. So we didn't do that, but we are 507 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,080 adding that as a feature so end users can have the confidence 508 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,160 that they send money into this thing. 509 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,760 They are going to get a minimum price if they're willing to do 510 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,600 the configuration step. Right. 511 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,360 You mentioned there like it can go through some other bridges. 512 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,320 Do you mean like are you also aggregating like other bridges 513 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,840 or meaning like other like because everything is sort of 514 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,080 within the cross chain chain flip protocol is all like 515 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,480 bridging happening within that sort of validator set or you 516 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,480 also like using No, no, I mean I mean like what you like. 517 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,520 Reality is when we launch, we're going to support like 5 pairs 518 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,880 and people want to swap more than just five different assets, 519 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,320 right. So as an integral part of our 520 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,120 product where we partnered with Squid it came out of exile 521 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,560 originally but that so chamber will be included in in in a 522 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,600 route. But you know if I if I'm 523 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,600 swapping from I don't know name, name, name something on Uniswap 524 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,680 die, right. We don't support die but UNISWAP 525 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,120 does right? So we can like we can configure 526 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,520 the entire route such that if we do a dice swap, then we ingress 527 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,240 the USDC, then we swap it to Bitcoin, right? 528 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,040 But we don't, we don't control uni swap, we can't revert back 529 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,120 and we're not going to send it just back to uni swap. 530 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,040 So yeah, we expect that the majority of routes that we are 531 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,800 involved in are not chain flip end to end, right? 532 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,080 There'll be some, well, unless it's like USDBTC, which actually 533 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,160 could be the majority of the, I don't know. 534 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,800 But there'll be a lot of cases where you know it either starts 535 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,640 on some axle supported chain that we don't support or it 536 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,560 starts or ends in a decks that are not us, right. 537 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,480 So we don't have full control over the whole route and as such 538 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,120 we have to build in all these different things to handle 539 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,800 different edge cases depending on the situation. 540 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,400 So it is quite complex. Luckily for you as a user, this 541 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,720 is all abstracted away and you don't have to think about this 542 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,440 at all. We've done the hard work for 543 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,920 you. Great. 544 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,800 So so you mentioned like it's 5 pairs. 545 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,120 I guess, can you tell us like which which ones it are? 546 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,800 It feels like BTC use this one, right? 547 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,640 And then is the plan to basically expand that and I 548 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,880 guess for more, is that like a permission less process of how 549 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,320 pairs are added in that can't be permissionless, unfortunately, 550 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,480 just on the basis that if we're going to support a new chain, 551 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,200 all of the validators have to connect to some node on, you 552 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,920 know that whatever that chain happens to be and also adding 553 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,560 new pairs, everything is denominated in USD, which right 554 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,920 now is only collateralized in USDC, although as an end user 555 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,120 you don't have to care about that. 556 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,760 Again, we'll swap it to or from whatever you want, but all the 557 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,680 LP positions are collateralized in USDC to start with. 558 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,240 So yeah, that that. That's for liquidity reasons 559 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,680 though by constraining the possibilities we make it much 560 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,480 much more efficient, right? If by having only BTCUSD and 561 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,480 then ETH USD it means that we we we've seen this play out in uni 562 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,040 swap so much like the only pairs that are really there now are 563 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,440 all backed in USD in some way. Because it just means no matter 564 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,040 where you start and where you end up, you're combining all of 565 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,240 the liquidity for each of those assets in such a way where the 566 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,680 in price always is always better. 567 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,320 So having a direct ETH BTC pair would just detract liquidity 568 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,560 from all users. So yeah, this fragmented 569 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,720 liquidity piece is a is a big problem and permissionless pools 570 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,120 are part of the problem. You know, there are some assets 571 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,480 which have like, you know, 6 or 7 copies of exactly the same 572 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,520 market structure where it's just not necessary, right? 573 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,160 I don't know how many ETH USD pools there are out there in the 574 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,960 world, but there are too many, I can tell you that. 575 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,680 And it makes things worse for users because what capital is 576 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,240 out there is split across more pairs than is necessary. 577 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,600 So yeah. Right. 578 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,280 And I guess. These sort of like wrapped 579 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,520 assets don't help much there either, because they make things 580 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,520 infinitely worse, yeah. Right, OK, yeah, that that makes 581 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,080 no sense. And then, so yeah, let's dive 582 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,720 back a bit into the whole like validator thing where I guess we 583 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,680 mentioned the threshold signature scheme. 584 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,840 But yeah, maybe you can expand how what do the validators on 585 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,520 chain flip do exactly And maybe also like you know how you know 586 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,840 our new chains edit. In in this world, well what do 587 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,760 the validators do? They do everything. 588 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,040 It's it's AI guess you'd say it's an Oracle bridge decks, 589 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,280 it's not really an L1 but there is a blockchain that they also 590 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,239 validate decentralized custody thing all rolled into one. 591 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,080 So everything that I say that chain flip does the validators 592 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,800 do it. So witnessing incoming deposits, 593 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,480 so someone wants to make a swap, they create a deposit channel, 594 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,080 the validators organise that, the that they then make that 595 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,880 deposit and then and then it appears on the Etherium 596 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,719 blockchain or whatever. The validators observe that and 597 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,600 then they have this consensus system where they agree that 598 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,040 this has taken place. So kind of like an Oracle and 599 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,640 then that triggers a follow on action which is usually a swap 600 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,840 which is then executed in the following block and we have 601 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,240 specific execution rules. So it's not a, it's not an L1. 602 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,440 You can't do whatever you want on this chain. 603 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,800 There are you can own at swaps are only triggered through 604 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:26,040 deposits, so you know you can't sit there and submit a swap 605 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,240 transaction. This is all automatically 606 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,480 executed by the validator network. 607 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,520 So this app chain environment that we've built is works quite 608 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,280 differently to what people are used to. 609 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,920 None. There's very few agent initiated 610 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,920 actions. So on uni swap to do a swap you 611 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,960 actually do the swap, you pay for the execution then do you 612 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,920 you actually do the smart contract interaction, that's 613 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,720 what you're signing and then you know whether or not it follows 614 00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:00,400 the rules this house determine in this case the validators 615 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,600 doing that execution automatically which is very cool 616 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,360 because it means we can automate a lot of stuff. 617 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,160 We can add a lot more bespoke rules around it, but it's all 618 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,920 part of the consensus driven process. 619 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,240 And then once you end up with the asset on the other side, 620 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,600 then the validators are going OK, we now need to send this 621 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,640 money somewhere so they'll agree on what the transaction looks 622 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,520 like. So how much gas we're going to 623 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,920 pay, where it's going to be sent to, how much we're sending, all 624 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,240 this kind of stuff. And then they'll get together 625 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,200 and they'll do a threshold signing ceremony. 626 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,080 So they'll use this massive Schnorr signature scheme, 100 of 627 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,320 them at any time, 100 of 150 is the threshold, and then they'll 628 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,160 do a joint signing ceremony. It's the largest decentralized 629 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,280 custody network system, I think in crypto. 630 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,520 I could be wrong, but I can't find any other examples of this, 631 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,440 especially at this scale. And that's pretty cool because 632 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,080 then, you know you have now produced a valid Bitcoin 633 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,600 transaction or a valid Ethereum transaction, which one of the 634 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,600 validators is they're nominated to broadcast. 635 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,080 If that fails, everyone has a copy of it, so they can deploy 636 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,640 it again, and so on and so on and so on. 637 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,240 So they're doing everything. They're doing everything that a 638 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,760 centralized exchange does, all in one and all together. 639 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,320 You know, this is consensus driven, which is why it's taken 640 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,200 us three years to develop. Because the the number of edge 641 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,600 cases that you have to deal with and even even simple things for 642 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,880 seemingly simple things like tracking gas and determining, 643 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,320 you know what the price is, you know, there's no human on the 644 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,120 other end that can go shit that was too low. 645 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,360 I'm going to have to like you know, boost it now like that. 646 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,160 That's not a thing. We can't really. 647 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,560 I mean we could do that, but this all has to be done 648 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,080 completely automatically all through a blockchain. 649 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,640 So you know it. It really is like pretty cutting 650 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,160 edge stuff and we're not the only ones that have pulled it 651 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,920 off. You know, Axel R has done parts 652 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,320 of this, store chains done a lot of this as well. 653 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,320 But yeah, it is, yeah, difficult to say the least. 654 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,960 But you know, we've been running test stats now for over 2 years. 655 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,720 And you, you. Mentioned like a hundreds of 656 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,480 150. That's that's because of like 657 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,320 consensus. Thresholds like 2/3 need to sign 658 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,960 off on something exactly. So there's no point doing 150 of 659 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,760 150 because you only need 100, right? 660 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,120 So to make it scalable, yeah you you pick the minimum size, you 661 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,760 randomly select from the group and then if that fails you retry 662 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,680 with the second group within the 150 set. 663 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,000 And that means like each of the validators needs to have like 664 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,480 the same amount of stake or the same say I guess in a network. 665 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,080 Is that correct? Yeah. 666 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,640 And I guess we'll talk about the auction soon and how that works. 667 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,120 But yeah, essentially, you could describe it as proof of 668 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,600 authority, but it's not really. There's a sort of bond level 669 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,680 that everyone's bonded to in any given epoch, But yeah, exactly 670 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,480 right. They they have an equal share, 671 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,560 they have an equal weight, I guess just because of the nature 672 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,160 of the threshold signature schemes. 673 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,920 Right. So so yeah, let's, let's start 674 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,880 actually with the auction. So you right, like again, we 675 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,240 have 150 validators, they run all the networks actually that's 676 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:09,440 maybe also the question, is it like? 677 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,480 All the validators have to run all the networks or can 678 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,000 validators choose which ones? Yeah, they they've all got to 679 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,760 have, they've all got to have the same endpoint connections. 680 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,600 I mean we could we could Shard this out in some ways, there are 681 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,320 ways we could re architect it, but you know, for now, you know, 682 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,560 Axel is able to have all their validators run 20 endpoints. 683 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,120 So it doesn't really seem to be a huge limiting factor. 684 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,080 So yeah, in order to be a validator, you need to have an 685 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,400 endpoint available for all of these different chains. 686 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,920 Often times the best way to do that is to run your own node. 687 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,320 But there are some networks where that's just completely 688 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,080 impractical. Like running a Solana validator 689 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,000 for example, is yeah, very, very expensive. 690 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,680 So yeah, we leave it up to the providers, you know, thought 691 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,560 chain. We're pretty big on forcing 692 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,840 everyone to have their own light client or something of that 693 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,160 nature. But that didn't really work. 694 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,080 So then everyone ended at home to run a full node. 695 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,720 But that's very expensive and very cumbersome and very 696 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,760 painful. So then you know. 697 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,080 Of course, validator operators, being validator operas, 698 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,720 developed workarounds and then just ended up using, you know, 699 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:13,800 inferior or whatever for the the equivalent thereof. 700 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,160 Which is fine, you know, as long as there's diversity. 701 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,680 It's it's really down. At the end of the day, the 702 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,240 validator operators themselves are on the hook if, if they if 703 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:26,400 they end up using a malicious endpoint, you know, they're 704 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,600 probably they're going to be in the minority and as a result 705 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,160 they're going to get penalized for that if it fails. 706 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,480 So yeah. Right. 707 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,680 And I guess you know a bunch of the. 708 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,160 Validators, depending on what sort of entities they are, 709 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,360 probably already may be running or Solana Validator and might be 710 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,360 able to use that architecture exactly exactly right, yeah. 711 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,440 OK. So again I guess the the 712 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,680 difference here wait with this wait from people that maybe know 713 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,760 like proof stake in other ways is like there's generally maybe 714 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,120 like delegation and like different stake amounts. 715 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,960 Now you guys have a bit of a different system because of I 716 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,760 guess the limitations or the TSS what what that requires. 717 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,520 And that's this auction, right? You need, you need to 718 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,880 essentially have or can you explain actually how how are are 719 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:17,600 the 150 validators that end up running the stuff chosen and 720 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,600 like, you know, yeah, I guess the entire system, that's Vanda. 721 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,240 Yeah. So this was a real challenge to 722 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,840 come up with crypto economically. 723 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,760 How? Like, there's some very specific 724 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,440 constraints in place in this system that mean that, you know, 725 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,480 it's just not going to work like other networks. 726 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,000 There is a finite number of authorities or validators that 727 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,920 can hold the keys because of scalability constraints. 728 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,960 You can't wait those different shares either. 729 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,480 They're all worth the same thing. 730 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,400 So the question is, you know, how do you, how do you make sure 731 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,920 that the stake is distributed as evenly as possible across the 732 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,800 set. And what we developed in 733 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,640 response to that is a system called simultaneous single round 734 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,880 open Dutch auctions, which is a horrendous mouthful. 735 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,640 But basically the idea is we have a rolling auction and the 736 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,560 start it's going to be every day, every 24 hours, but just 737 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,640 we're going to reduce that every 72 hours. 738 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:22,040 And essentially what happens is the top 150 bidding validators 739 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,880 are then selected and the lowest value, the lowest staked value 740 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,560 of that becomes the bond or the minimum active bid is sometimes, 741 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,480 we sometimes refer to it. So everyone is is committed to 742 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,560 the same level of stake every auction and it's all determined 743 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,200 based on the lowest bidder. So even the the stake, the 744 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,640 required stake is evenly spread, anything on top of that can be 745 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,600 withdrawn and that's so we can enable, you know, dynamic 746 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,000 rebalancing. So if I'm a validator operating, 747 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,920 let's say I have 3 validators and the minimum stake is like 748 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,520 100,000 flip, let's say all the bond ends up being 100,000 flip 749 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,600 through this round of auctions. But you know, two of my 750 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,960 validators have like 150,000 and one of them has 100,000. 751 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,240 I can now, you know, split off that excess stake, take, take 752 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:18,000 that off the top and deploy it into a new validator, thereby 753 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,560 increasing the amount of validators I have to four. 754 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,600 And you know, now I have 400,000 flip stakes where I'm earning 755 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,320 more rewards. So it's trying to encourage this 756 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,480 natural redistribution across auction cycles and it's trying 757 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,640 to make sure that the level of stakes provided within each 758 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,400 validator is equal. So as the dynamics shift, you 759 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,520 know this will change to. There are also rewards for 760 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,960 backup validators for those that are not successful in the 761 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,200 auction just to keep them around and there's a whole thing around 762 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,880 that. But I think this is a really 763 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,560 exciting component of of the protocol actually and 764 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,040 particularly around the the flip staking dynamics as well. 765 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,480 We also have a liquid staking product that's been developed on 766 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,960 top by a company called Thunderhead St. 767 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,040 Flip. So you know if you're not a 768 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,280 validator operator directly, you know you you can you can just go 769 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,120 to them and they'll do this rebalancing for you across their 770 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,200 providers. So you know from an end user 771 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,040 perspective for a flip holders perspective this may not be that 772 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,960 crazy relevant but you know we've had to develop it in this 773 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,560 particular way in order to yeah, overcome some of the 774 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,080 requirements that arise as a result of having this 775 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,000 decentralized custody system with this equal weighted shares 776 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:38,200 across each of the validators. Like you know the people ask me 777 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,920 sometimes like oh why aren't you a para chain, you know you're 778 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,200 you, you have the substrate thing like why? 779 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,160 Well like yeah we could be a para chain but then we'd be 780 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,440 paying for security. That doesn't really help us 781 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,080 because you know securing our block chain and securing the the 782 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,400 extrinsics in that a one thing. But these guys are holding key 783 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,400 shares to vault with millions of dollars in them that you know 784 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,200 are not held on on our block chain. 785 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:03,560 They're actually held externally. 786 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:08,040 So yeah, adding a dish like that's the most vulnerable part 787 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,040 economically of the system. And so everything has to be 788 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,920 oriented around that. But I think the auction dynamics 789 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,640 be quite exciting because the stake will probably start out 790 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,400 low, like they won't probably won't be 150 bidding validators 791 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,000 in the first rounds of auctions. So it'll be really easy to get 792 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,800 in and like earn rewards and stuff, but then it'll like 793 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,440 slowly scale up as more rounds are conducted. 794 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,280 So I'm really excited to see that play out, with the main net 795 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,720 launch coming up very soon. Right. 796 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:36,160 Yeah. Yeah, it's on super interesting 797 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,520 like novel sort of mechanism, I think. 798 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,240 Yeah. What I'm wondering, I think 799 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,480 there's a similar thing a little bit on Sweet that I'm aware of 800 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,360 where the validator sort of bid on the minimum gas price for the 801 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,440 epoch. Which also like kind of means 802 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,480 the validator has to like do this extra step that they 803 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,040 generally maybe don't do like in in on top of like just running 804 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,640 the software and and validating transactions like actually 805 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,040 actively. Sort of submitting some sort of 806 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,200 mid for something that is I guess in the SUI case for the 807 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,920 gas based on their hardware cost which is also already like you 808 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,760 know how do you actually measure that? 809 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,440 I feel like the space maybe not at that point yet, but can you 810 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,600 maybe explain in the chain flip case how like what are the like 811 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:26,800 parameters that the validators take to kind of make a bit or 812 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,960 like how much, how do they determine how much stake they 813 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,320 they should bid? Is that based on like? 814 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,240 The competition or the expected rewards that come from flip 815 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,480 staking? Or, you know, how do you 816 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,440 actually set this value? As a as a validator, yeah, I 817 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,880 mean it's it's it's purely down to market dynamics. 818 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,640 So it's purely down to the appetite of other validator 819 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,800 operators, right. So if there's, you know, 150 820 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,480 validators but they're all only staking 1000 flip, then they 821 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,880 have no reason to stake more than 1000 flip. 822 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,440 But because of the rewards, you know, there's obviously an 823 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,560 economic equation that comes into this which is OK, you know, 824 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,640 at if I stake 1000 flip, my APY is going to be like 1000%. 825 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,560 And so you can imagine that you know, a lot of people are going 826 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,200 to then go like, well, I'll be crazy not to stake. 827 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,840 So you know you have this market dynamics system whereby at some 828 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,880 point there'll be some equilibrium that's reached where 829 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:31,480 the level of reward is reaches the level of essentially the 830 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,160 level of stake. So you know, if my APY is, you 831 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,760 know, effectively 10% and that equates to for argument's sake 832 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,920 like $1000 a year, it won't be that. 833 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,960 I don't know what it's going to be, but let's say it is right. 834 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,480 But I'm spending $1000 a year and running this thing anyway 835 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,640 while I mean I'm not making any money, so I'm not going to bid 836 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,880 anymore and if I get dropped, I don't really care. 837 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,080 So then the stake comes down to account for that like just in 838 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,120 through natural auction dynamics, people will leave the 839 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,200 network and then the stake will come down. 840 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,560 The API will go up and say you know this is constant 841 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,440 rebalancing that's taking place which trades off operational 842 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,960 costs versus the revenue that's coming in versus the value of 843 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,680 the collateral, it's perceived future value and all these all 844 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,120 these kind of equations that each individual validator 845 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,160 operator is going to make. But from an auction dynamic 846 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,240 perspective, you know that means that we're always going to be at 847 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:31,960 a level of collateralization that across the validator set 848 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,080 trades off all of these different factors. 849 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,800 So hopefully this is a set and forget thing for us as protocol 850 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,640 developers. You know this is a system that 851 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,920 we've developed that we think will mean that we'd never have 852 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,880 to touch it. We know we need we there would 853 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,680 that won't have to be a discussion about raising or 854 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,160 lowering things unless it's sort of a central government, central 855 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,560 bank kind of situation right like where you control interest 856 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,080 rates and then that has not gone effects which effects people's 857 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,200 economic behaviour. So we could increase or decrease 858 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,080 the level of emissions that have been paid to validate is that's 859 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:10,320 the one lever that we can sort of adjust to influence the 860 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,040 auction dynamics there. So if we increase it, APY is 861 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,760 going to jump up and then people might want to stake more and 862 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,440 then you know that will lead to a higher level of staking into 863 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,160 at least in terms of flip. Vice versa, if we reduce the 864 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,040 level of emission, then there won't be as much rewards which 865 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,760 may cause people to drop off, which then may in turn lead to a 866 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,480 decreasing stake. So yeah, token economically, I 867 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,760 think it's pretty interesting. But you know, I'm A I'm a nerd, 868 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,560 so I don't know. No, no, it's great. 869 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,520 Yeah. And and this sort of governance. 870 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,800 Decisions like any. Maybe I should talk a bit about 871 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,480 how these are made. It's just like token voting from 872 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,840 flip holders or you know, what's what's the system? 873 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,720 Yeah, that could, that could be a thing. 874 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,600 At the moment the way we've got it set up is we kind of have a 875 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,560 governance council which right now is Chain Flip Labs and I 876 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,480 hope it will continue to be in that way for some time. 877 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:13,760 But we have token weighted voting in a in place to change 878 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,520 the governance council. If it's elect a new government 879 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,320 basically you could you could think of it as, but you know 880 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,320 obviously you know like any blockchain developer we do all 881 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,760 this in consultation with the community, in the stakeholders 882 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,160 and the validators and the LP's and everyone who's using the 883 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,880 system. Because ultimately you know that 884 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,320 that's that that's where the value is being driven, that's 885 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,440 where you all the stakeholders are. 886 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,280 So we're not going to do anything that we think will be, 887 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,800 you know, existentially bad hopefully. 888 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,920 But there is there are options the nuclear option for the 889 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,160 community to get rid of us if that's what's needed. 890 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,080 But yeah, when you're running your own blockchain network, 891 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:58,720 like, it's not that There's really no, it's not worth 892 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:02,640 pretending that there is another way of doing it at the because 893 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,640 like this is all connected to the validator software and 894 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,920 someone's going to publish that, someone's going to sign that. 895 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,480 You know, at the end of the day, you know the whoever is running 896 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,160 the development process, someone has authority at the ultimate 897 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,480 authority, including Bitcoin. You know, there are there are no 898 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,000 networks where this doesn't apply. 899 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,880 If you're running on a smart contract on someone else's 900 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,320 network, OK, that's a different story, but that's not the 901 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,840 situation here. I'm So any independent network, 902 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,000 any network for that matter has, has a similar dynamic. 903 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,560 So yeah, in the future we, you know, we could develop, 904 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,920 certainly develop like a a token weighted governance. 905 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,000 I mean the governance palette that ships with Substrate has a 906 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,680 lot of this in place already, but it would have to then be 907 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,080 linked back to all of the specific functionality that 908 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,960 we're voting on. So to even do a vote, the 909 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,120 developer would have to create the hooks in order to decide 910 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,560 between different outcomes for the token weighted voting to 911 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,520 even make sense. So yeah, it's governance is an 912 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,400 interesting one. But yeah, I think overall, you 913 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,960 know, the reality is, is that chain Flip Labs is going to be 914 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,760 leading the way, especially early on. 915 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,440 But yeah, we don't exercise any unilateral control over the 916 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,080 network or the people that run it or anything like that. 917 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,880 So you know we don't, we don't hold anyone's money which is 918 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,240 very important. But yeah from a governance 919 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,720 perspective you know we're we're really going to be trying our 920 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,040 best to iterate quickly especially in the opening first 921 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,560 few years because you know, we don't no one really knows how 922 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,400 this is going to play out whether or not the settings that 923 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:39,880 we said at the start were right or not. 924 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:45,360 And you know, so we have to, yeah, adapt based on what we 925 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,080 see, I guess. Yeah, yeah. 926 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:48,600 You know, that makes makes perfect sense to me. 927 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,200 I guess you can also like signaling. 928 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,480 Proposals or something I guess because also flip as I 929 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,840 understand is AESC 20 on Ethereum also, right. 930 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,320 So you could even use snapshot or what not, right. 931 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,440 So I guess there's a lot of ways to at least somehow involve, I 932 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,160 mean yeah, governance the whole topic that is quite complex. 933 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,320 So we we don't need to like dive much but yeah that's that's 934 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,440 helpful for understanding. So maybe also like one more 935 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:17,360 thing there is we were talking a bit about how new networks are 936 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,040 added and that's that basically like chain flip or like the. 937 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:27,200 Labs team in discussion with the validators Or this is decides 938 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,960 like a new network that should be added and then it will be 939 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,560 added to the software and from then on all the validators need 940 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,880 to run that additional clients. Yeah. 941 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,640 From a certain point, yeah, there'll be a release like a, 942 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,920 you know the consultation period then there'll be a a release 943 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,520 which enables them to add it and then at some point there'll be a 944 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,080 switch over which is triggered with an on chain governance 945 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,000 extrinsic. But you know if if we were to 946 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,760 just decide oh we're we're listing like coin tomorrow and 947 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,840 then no one's actually added it and then we don't run the 948 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,680 runtime upgrade and nothing's happened, then the whole thing 949 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,840 just stops. So you know we we can't we can't 950 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,000 just do whatever we want it doesn't work that way. 951 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,840 We we have to work in concert with the whole validator 952 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,280 network. So we talked a lot about like 953 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,480 the system of of chain flare, but obviously you've been 954 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,120 working on it for the last three years maybe. 955 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,440 To to slowly wrap things up, can we we can talk a little bit 956 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,600 about you know where you are at right now the road map maybe 957 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,320 also did you know what future use cases you could imagine like 958 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,520 chain flip network being being used for I guess yeah let's 959 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,320 let's let's get to that. So maybe we start with you know 960 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:44,160 when when mainnet and you know well just between you and me and 961 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,000 I guess everyone this thing which is not very secret I 962 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,280 suppose, but we have already conducted A stealthy main net 963 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,840 sort of soft launch. We're not going to use the 964 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:55,240 network that we we did that with. 965 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:58,720 But we you know just wanted a sanity check all of our work and 966 00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:01,800 make sure that what is working on test net right now which you 967 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,760 can go check out live at any time is you know makes sense on 968 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,120 main net and you know things like gas estimations and all 969 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,520 that work out and it worked. So we did find a couple things 970 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,160 but you know we are we are very much there now after three 971 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,360 goddamn yes, we're it's fine finally putting it out. 972 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,080 We have a a loose tge date so the main net is going to be live 973 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,640 in the next two weeks, but it won't really be live because it 974 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,840 won't be public because no one we had a stake to it or do 975 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,040 anything like that because they haven't got the tokens to do it. 976 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,760 So the actual token distribution, go live, date 977 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,040 everything, auctions, beginning, all that kind of stuff. 978 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,640 So far it's been slated for November 8th. 979 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,960 I hope that date holds and by the time this goes out that may 980 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,480 have changed, maybe not. We'll see. 981 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,880 Launches like this are always a moving target. 982 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,960 You know, there's a lot of things to consider, you know, 983 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,960 both with main net operational concerns, but then also 984 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,640 commercial concerns as well with exchanges, custody and so on and 985 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,440 so on and so on, which we've been working very hard on as 986 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,960 well. But yeah, finally that item on 987 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,920 the road map ticked off. Boom, Hopefully by the time you 988 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,800 listen to this, it'll already be live. 989 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,520 Then that's straight after that we have a period where we need 990 00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,680 to allow the validators to collateralize the network. 991 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,760 So as I alluded to before, you know starting at a stake OF0 992 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,200 with we have like just three boot nodes basically that don't 993 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,080 really have much of a stake. You know that needs to grow to 994 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,760 150 validators with a fairly significant stake in order for 995 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,600 us to be able to safely deposit liquidity into the system for it 996 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,240 to be secured. So we're leaving it running for 997 00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:41,000 a few weeks. We don't know exactly when 998 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,480 that's going to be yet. We probably need to see what 999 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,840 happens in the first couple weeks to be able to lock in a 1000 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,720 date for swapping to go live because, you know, we don't want 1001 00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:52,960 to ask LP's to be throwing millions of dollars into the 1002 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,880 liquidity pools if there's like, you know, only 10 Valinators or 1003 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,640 something crazy like that. So I don't think that's going to 1004 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,560 happen. But, you know, we have to, we 1005 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,280 don't want to ask people to do anything crazy like that. 1006 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,960 So yeah, the the idea is hopefully by the end of 1007 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,680 November, which is rapidly approaching as winter sets in, 1008 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,800 time is accelerating. Thank God I'll get through this, 1009 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,120 this cold spell. But yeah, the swapping itself 1010 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,960 will go live. LP's will be able to make 1011 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,600 deposits, users will be able to make swaps will be live and 1012 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,040 squid router from day one. So you know a complete end to 1013 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,480 end user experience will be there. 1014 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,080 Also got several other wallet and aggregator integrations as 1015 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,480 well in various stages of development. 1016 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,480 And so yeah, hopefully we'll be able to generate you know some 1017 00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,640 of that early volume and and and hopefully the whole thing will 1018 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,440 make sense economically from end to end. 1019 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,560 It might not, but you know that's that's the nature of the 1020 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,040 business. You know you got to going to be 1021 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,120 in it to win it. So yeah, in terms of follow on 1022 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,720 road map stuff, we've got a bunch of new features that we're 1023 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,640 going to bring out before Christmas and then into the new 1024 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,760 year as well including new block chains, new features to make 1025 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,720 swapping faster, make it cheaper, make it better, make it 1026 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,680 more competitive in the aggregator market. 1027 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,320 You know and you know things like this fill or kill feature 1028 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,160 that I talked about before as well. 1029 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,080 Yeah, we've got something in the works with, in regards with the 1030 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,160 USDC and cross chain transfer protocol by circle themselves 1031 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,480 which allow for seamless liquidity rebalancing across a 1032 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,080 lot of different block chains, which will be very, very cool. 1033 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,640 Again, a part of that efficiency piece making sure we're not 1034 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,520 fragment, we don't have like a USDCUSDC pool on like two 1035 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,760 different chains because like why? 1036 00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,280 Why would you do that if you don't have to? 1037 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,600 You're just wasting U.S. dollars that could be deployed to fill 1038 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,920 actuals like swap swaps, you know. 1039 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,960 So yeah, the road map is endless, You know, there is, 1040 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,240 there is so many things that can be done in this vertical to 1041 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:03,480 improve it for users, be that more chains, more assets, making 1042 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,360 the swaps faster, making them cheaper and so on. 1043 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,920 But you know, you asked before what else could the chain flip 1044 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,400 network be used for? And the answer is nothing. 1045 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:18,920 We we do this. You know, a lot of projects like 1046 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,560 try to sell you the world. You know this is the 1047 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,320 interoperability solution. It can do all of the things. 1048 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,040 And yes, we have cross chain messaging, but only so we can 1049 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,080 make the swaps compatible with aggregation. 1050 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,080 We only do swaps. We only do native cross chain 1051 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,120 swaps. We spent three years on it and 1052 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,480 we have a feature list of mile long to make that better. 1053 00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,600 So you know you won't see us doing a lending product, you 1054 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,360 won't see us doing some sort of yield farming thing, although we 1055 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,440 can do like liquidity programs and stuff, but it's all in 1056 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,160 service of cross chain native swaps that is our vertical and 1057 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,920 we're staying well within that. You could use this architecture 1058 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,520 if you were to like go away and re engineer it. 1059 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,160 You could maybe use it for other things as well, Some sort of 1060 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,360 cross chain lending protocol. You could build a derivatives 1061 01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,080 platform that settles all these different chains and stuff. 1062 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,200 But there's already a bunch of protocols that do that. 1063 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,120 You know, this has been specifically engineered so you 1064 01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,640 can go swap half $1,000,000 in Bitcoin in a completely 1065 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,200 decentralized fashion in under a minute with 0 slippage. 1066 01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,960 I mean, if that's not cool enough for you, I don't know 1067 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:28,960 what is. Felix, I'm really sorry but I 1068 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:33,440 can't help you. Liza, let's That's a great pitch 1069 01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,760 and I'm I'm very excited to see your work of the last three 1070 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,320 years go live soon. So we're regarding this October 1071 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,240 12. I think we're actually going to 1072 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,360 release this like quite soon. So might be that it's live 1073 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,240 before the RX live maybe we'll can we can like hold out a bit 1074 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,720 and release it with the actual launch would be great. 1075 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,840 But yeah thanks so much for expanding and I I do think right 1076 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,240 that focus is key. I think that one thing that I 1077 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,040 also learned over the last five years in crypto is that, you 1078 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,480 know, yeah, sometimes projects maybe that haven't received that 1079 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,160 got the traction with their. Like core thing try to sell you 1080 01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,920 everything else in in a like attempt to like sort of stay 1081 01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,600 relevant or sort of find something that has PMF. 1082 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,000 But maybe it's maybe it's better to like stay focused on on the 1083 01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,880 one thing and and especially if that has traction double down on 1084 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,720 it. I mean yeah UNISWAP being maybe 1085 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,240 one example for that or also DYDX which like sort of like 1086 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:27,760 with their, I mean I've experienced personally as well 1087 01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,840 with session. I mean you know in the first two 1088 01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,400 years it was it was not good you know the the adoption was not 1089 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,400 good but the app was also not very good. 1090 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,640 But we didn't give up. You know we kept working at it 1091 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,600 and now you know we're experiencing month on month 1092 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,040 downloads growth consistently without spending any money on 1093 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,320 marketing you know so finding product market fit, I think 1094 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,360 people have very short term expectations in this industry. 1095 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,160 You know it's either pops off now or it's it's dead. 1096 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,640 But if you that is true for a lot of things which are sort of 1097 01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,800 don't really have strong fundamentals. 1098 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,520 But for something like this where you know people are 1099 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:12,080 swapping billions of dollars of Bitcoin every day and we're 1100 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:13,720 developing a unique venue for it. 1101 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,400 It may take time it may take you know several months, several 1102 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,480 years before you know this achieves some of product market 1103 01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:22,520 fit. I don't think so. 1104 01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,200 I think I'm going to market strategy is good but you know 1105 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,920 I've I've experienced personally that if you if you believe in 1106 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,600 the fundamentals of the product vertical that you're operating 1107 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,160 within and you're willing to be able to adapt your thesis and 1108 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,400 and and adapt to the market as you go live. 1109 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,520 I. I think that, yeah, sticking to 1110 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,600 a vertical is absolutely the way forward for for many teams at 1111 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,400 this point in this level of maturity that we've achieved in 1112 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,160 the crypto space over the last decade. 1113 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,800 Awesome, Simon, thanks so much for coming on today. 1114 01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:56,000 And yeah, we'll link a bunch of the documentation and stuff in 1115 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,960 the show notes. And yeah, glad to see champs of 1116 01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:01,560 life soon. And thanks so much again. 1117 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,080 Let's have you guys. Well, thanks so much, Felix. 1118 01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,240 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1119 01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,200 We release new episodes every week. 1120 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,600 You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, 1121 01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,640 YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 1122 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,920 And if you have a Google Home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1123 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:21,920 listen to the latest episode of the Epicenter podcast. 1124 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,000 Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a full list of places where you 1125 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,240 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 1126 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,720 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 1127 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,800 inbox as they're released. 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