Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the
technologies, projects and people driving decentralization
and the blockchain revolution. I'm Fredrika ANZ, and today I'm
speaking with John Paller, who is the founder and Chief steward
of East Denver. We're not crypto Denver.
We're not blockchain Denver. We're not anything like that.
We're we're very much Ethereum first.
We were never propped up or supported by the Ethereum
Foundation and we just did our thing and they sort of just
said, hey, that's part of a permissionless world.
You know, anybody can do an ETH event somewhere.
I mean, as North America's largest event and probably the
world's largest aggregator of Etherium folks, you know, we've
done this for 9 years. I think that agentic AI in
coming on chain is probably the biggest innovation that we've
seen in the 12 years I've been in it.
But it actually looks like increasingly traditional finance
institutions are besting asset our own game, and they're
executing extremely well. So the only reason why crypto
didn't scale bigger than it is or didn't really make it in
mainstream is because we didn't have distribution.
Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the
technologies, projects and people driving decentralization
in the blockchain revolution. I'm Vedrika Anst and today I'm
speaking with John Pallor, who is the founder and Chief Steward
of East Denver. E Denver just concluded the week
before last and it is typically one of the biggest crypto
gatherings in the space. Before we talk with Don, let me
tell you about our sponsors this week.
This episode's brought to you by Lido.
As Ethereum staking continues to evolve, more teams building
staking products are running into a familiar challenge.
On one hand, pooled liquid staking gives you liquidity and
access to Defy but can limit customization.
And on the other, bespoke staking setups offer more
control over things like pricing, performance, and
operator selection. But they often come with added
complexity and less flexibility. Lido V3 is changing that with
St. Vaults.
St. Vaults is modular staking
infrastructure. It lets builders and
institutions deploy custom staking vaults tailored to their
specific needs. At the same time, they're
staying connected to SDE as a shared liquidity layer powering
Ethereum's broader Defy ecosystem.
If you're just looking for a place to generate yield on your
idle assets, Lido Earn makes it super simple.
It offers curated Defy strategies built around SD ETH.
You deposit once you choose a vault and manage everything from
a single interface. To learn more and start building
with SD Vaults, go to Lido dot fi slash SD Vaults and get in
touch with Lidar contributors today.
Done. Thank you so much for coming in.
Thank you for having me. Fantastic.
Tell us about yourself. So before E Denver, what were
you doing and what pulled you into Ethereum in the fast days?
I would say serendipity pulled me into the space, but the
actual story goes a little something like this.
So I was in the Uber of era in startups, right, where you know,
the Uber for laundry and the Uber for this and the Uber for
that, right? So everybody was trying to build
these marketplaces using apps to connect, you know, the bit in
the ask on things. And I was involved in that and I
was working on, I've been employment, I've been in the
employment in HR tech space for a very long time.
And so I was working on a project that was building, you
could say, like the MLS system for recruiting.
What's an MLS system? So the MLS system is like the
real estate system that we use here in the US where like the,
the buyer's agent finds the seller's agent and they get
together and then they sell a piece of property.
Well, we, we tried doing that with jobs, but some of the
issues that we ran into were very, very challenging to scale
it for lots of different reasons.
And I'm not going to get into that.
But I'd started talking about the democratization of
employment back in 2005 before I knew anything about block chains
or smart contracts or Web 3 or any of that stuff.
Before it was even a thing, before Bitcoin was even a thing.
I was thinking about these things and I started studying
economic models and social anthropology and incentive
design game theory. I started really digging into
like, well, what makes things actually work the way that they
work, right? Like I was curious to, you know,
really think about how can we create better systems that
actually create more sustainable outcomes?
But then in, in building this sort of like platform for
recruiters to, to like share information and share jobs or
candidates or whatever, we, I mean, we really learned a lot
about the game design of that industry.
And I, in January 2014, I was at a technology conference in San
Diego, CA, and I happened to meet a guy by the name of
Dimitri Buterin, who was also at the conference.
And he and I became friends and stayed in touch on social media.
And then later in 2014, I started seeing about the
Etherium white paper and I was curious about what all that was.
And I read it and I'm not sure that I understood it.
Actually, I know that I didn't understand it, but I had some
early ideas of how to use the technology and I was really
intrigued by some of the like after they did the the Etherium
presale. I was intrigued.
They like raised fifteen $16,000,000 in like a matter of
hours and I'm just like, what's like tokens?
What is all this like? So it started getting me curious
and you know, but I, I still hadn't had my sort of conversion
moment. I guess you could say my red
pill moment. I hadn't had that yet.
That came in early 2016 and I was talking with, well, my CTO
at the time for my my startup. And he was like, duh, blockchain
stuff, it's not going to be a thing and all this.
And I'm just like, yeah, but we're in the middle of all of
these issues as a company. Like, wouldn't it be better if
we just had code that that sort of ran everything and then we
could just not be in the middle? Like so behavior is organized
based on the property designed incentives and he just was not
having it. And I was speaking with another
colleague of mine and he was big into Bitcoin and a few other
things that were going on at the time.
And you know, he's, he got kind of he, I wouldn't say he got mad
at me, but he he kind of proverbially grabbed me by the
ears and said, John, you're not paying attention.
This isn't technology for corporations.
This is going to rewire the entire system in a way that
we're going to build all new things.
And like, you know, I'd always been thinking about blockchain
tech is like an efficiency capture.
I mean, technology has always been in terms of corporations,
like, you know, let's make it cheaper, let's make it better,
let's make it faster so we have a market edge, right?
We can build a Moat of some sort.
Well, it finally dawned on me. I was like, oh wait, this is
going to change everything and. To get a strong moment.
You had this like, whoa, it's kind of like Neo coming out of
the matrix playing it like, you know, you know, I what, what,
you know, my whole life changed and you know, I, up to this
point, I had a recruiting business that, you know, it was
very nice business. And I had a startup that, you
know, did pretty well. And, you know, all of a sudden I
just like, I just lost interest in all of that.
So, and I, I couldn't change it. It was just like, once you saw
it, you, you couldn't Unsee it. Well, then I was talking to Dima
Dimitri and I, I was asking him like, you know, about developers
and like all this, because I had all these ideas and I, I, you
know, at the time I didn't really understand how to code
anything. And you know, I was the
entrepreneur guy. So I needed AI need a few dabs
to like, but I didn't even know what I wanted to build yet.
So the only people I could get in touch with were people that
wanted like 4 or $500.00 an hour just to like, you know, build
you some little prototype thing. And like, if you don't know what
you want to build, they don't know what to build you.
So you know, it wasn't just like a hacking thing, like hey, let's
practice, let's try, let's just figure some stuff out.
So that didn't exist. You couldn't find anybody that
knew solidity. So I found my way to the
Etherium Denver meet up that was started by a guy by the name of
Kent Barton. And Kent, we just had a passion
for education and community. And you know, I started going
when it was pretty small and then, you know, it grew in the
spring of 2017 like exponentially.
And it was one of those things where it went from like, you
know, low double digits to like 4 or 500 people every month
wanting to come to this thing. And, you know, so I started
getting more involved and I, I was asking Kent and the guys
that were running and I was like, you know, what have you
guys thought about doing a hackathon?
I mean, there's like all these people here that like, don't
know anything about Web 3 or, you know, smart contracts or,
but they're curious, right? Everybody wants to know about
Ethereum. It's just like Cambrian
explosion of interest. And so we asked a question one
time at the meetups. It's like, you know, who would
be interested in attending a hackathon and like, you know,
half the room or more raise their hand.
And I was like, well, we should do that.
And they're all like, well, you know, we tried a hackathon one
time and didn't really go anywhere.
And Nah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, it's just, I don't know.
It was just, it was just not. They didn't want anything to do
with it really, because they had said they tried it and it didn't
work. So then I thought you swayed.
Them. But I didn't sway them.
I just went and did it. So I told them I was like, well,
I'm going to go do this. So, you know, and they're like,
well, you know, all the reasons why.
And I was like, look, we're going to make Colorado the
epicenter of blockchain and Whip 3 innovation.
And we're going to, you know, why don't we get 3 or 400 people
together? And like, what, you know, this
is like, I mean, we got like 30 people last time and it was sort
of weak. I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm talking about like, let's bring in the best educators, the
people that know this. Let's bring in Vitalik.
Let's bring in like all these people to do this.
Why not? And so they're like, well, if
you want to go for it. So I started reaching out to
guys like Joe Lubin and Vignesh from from Landroid and you know,
the guys from 0X and McClain from New Cipher.
And I mean, just a whole bunch of people, right, that were
early, you know, Joe, Joe Lubin from consensus, of course.
And I just, I said, look, I've so I put together like a deck
and I said, well, like, look, here's here's what you would
get. And you know, will you support
this hackathon? Like we want to, we want to
build some debts. And at the time, like there were
no debts. So like everyone's like, yeah,
we should build some devs. So what we thought was going to
be, you know, 3-4 hundred people ended up being 1500 people the
first year. And it just, you know, it kind
of hit hit the right sort of notes, you know, the location
was good because everybody could get to Denver from, you know,
either coast pretty easily. You know, the airports are very
easy to get to. Cost of living is low.
We used to do it over the Presidents Day weekend because,
you know, we wanted to give people an extra day to travel,
especially students. And we did it for free because
we didn't want to paywall learning how to do this.
Like you're not going to get people who are curious about
something to come spend $500 on an event.
So like we, we just didn't like any of that model.
So we, we said it's like, you know, community of communities
and like, let's, let's build some stuff, right?
We invented the Biddle meme at eat #2018.
So the whole huddle for Bitcoin, we built our version of it for
Ethereum, which was Biddle, which is now been mentioned on
acts like 90 million times or something like that.
So yeah, so that that's how it kind of got started.
I mean, it was it was out of the need for devs.
It's just nobody had any and I didn't have any.
And I wanted to build some and then, you know, it would just
sort of took off. And then we're like, well, we
should do it again. And then so we did it again in
2019 and then we did it again in 2020.
And there just was a lot of demand for it.
And so it got a lot of recognition internationally.
I mean, even the first year we had people from 35 countries
come in. And now, you know, I think this
year there was 140 countries or something represented over, you
know, 6000 people or something that came in.
So, you know, and this is significantly smaller than it
has been. It's been about 20,000 people or
more the last several years. So, you know, all the tourists
are gone, right? So it's mostly just the core
community people who really care about this and decentralization
and the kind of ethos and values of Web 3.
So that's how it got started. And, you know, nine years later,
here we are. So we just finished our ninth
season. Yeah.
Before we kind of get into how it's changed over over the
years, did did you find your defs for your project?
Oh yeah, I did. And then.
So, yeah, I can pretty much get anybody.
I can get anybody I need now. Yeah, I know a few people.
Good. Tell me how a kind of the format
of East Denver kind of developed over the years and kind of how
how that corresponds with kind of the sort of people who
attend? Yeah, well, there's, there's
narratives that form in the ecosystem and I've been pretty
good at seeing them before they happen.
Like we predicted Defy the, you know, 18 months before Defy
Summer happened. You know, we saw it, we saw it
early and we said, oh, you know, all this lent on chain lending
and derivatives and all that's going to be really big.
And then, you know, Defy Summer happened and it was just like,
whoa, you know, that was, you know, post ICO boom.
I was probably the biggest sort of driver of things.
But then it it, you know, the narratives start shifting right?
So then it got into NFTS and and then I got into Dows and then I
got it. And then it gets in all sorts of
stuff right now it's prediction markets and now it's, you know,
perps and whatever. But if you look at the
undercurrent of all of it, it's all financial use cases, right?
It's all about, well, you could even argue that a lot of this is
just neo casinos. Not that the stock market itself
isn't really a giant casino because it is.
But like, you know, we're kind of in the wild, Wild West.
And you know, the asymmetric gains that people can get by
playing the roulette of well, meme coins is another one,
right? You know, let's get in early and
pump and, and then pump and then dump, right.
So people don't really care about these projects.
They don't I mean there, there's a few that they do, but like for
the most part, these are vehicles for asymmetric upside.
So it's gambling. So what happened in the in terms
of the event was, you know, we, we were never propped up or
supported by the Etherium Foundation.
We just, we have a lot of friends there, but like, you
know, we just did our thing and they sort of just said, hey,
that's part of a permissionless world.
You know, anybody can do an ETH event somewhere and the market
physics are going to determine who wins and who loses.
And so we were just really good at sort of protecting the kind
of what's next, right? So every time one of these
cycles would come up, we would see it coming, right?
And now we're in the institutional phase with stable
coins and, you know, modernizing the the current financial
systems infrastructure and whatever.
And we saw that coming, you know, with the President Trump's
election, that was pretty much inevitable.
That was going to happen. And in here we are, it's
happening. So we pretty much let the market
dictate what the kind of format was going to be.
So as people became more interested in booths, for
example, we figured out a way to cater to that.
Now, what was that really about? It was about the need for
engagement. They want to talk to people,
they want their brand to be seen.
So we just we, we appropriated space for that.
When Vitalik started talking about the scaling road map free
for Ethereum and the need for L twos.
And you know what that meant to the ecosystem.
What that was really saying to the market is, hey, we're kind
of admitting that Etherium by itself can't scale.
And so we're going to leave it to the market to figure out what
the solutions for that are. This is very on brand for
Etherium. They'll just kind of throw stuff
out, Botalk will just throw stuff out and and then people
will just build things, right? And so L twos became prominent
and then all L ones or EVML ones and like all this kind of stuff
happened. So the demand, but the demand
for the same stuff was always there, you know, boost
developers speaking opportunities to hackathon to
engaging developers, hiring developers, like all these
things were very, very hot topics.
And so we just happened to attract everybody that wanted to
be participating in that. I mean, as North America's
largest event and probably the world's largest aggregator of
Etherium folks, you know, we've done this for nine years and
like even, I think we've even had a higher attendance than
Devcon in aggregate. You know, so it's been a big
thing. But but we really kind of let
the market dictate it because again, open permission list
decentralization sort of we never really tried to fabricate
much. Now I would say today though,
some of those choices, Etherium doesn't have as strong as a
narrative I think is say Solana does.
No one can really tell you what Ethereum's narrative is because
it just is and just does right. And so those of us who are still
very passionate about Ethereum are passionate about Ethereum
because it's really the only credibly decentralized
blockchain in my opinion. There are some that are doing
great things, like our friends at Near are doing great things.
We, there's the guy's base are doing great things is an L2,
there's lots of interesting things happening around the
space, but that doesn't mean necessarily anything to us.
So we try to keep things as market based as possible.
But then, you know, as Aetherium sort of just kind of took, you
know, it's own intentionally sort of quieter voice, you know,
from especially the foundation's perspective, other voices have
tried to become more prominent, which, you know, has definitely
made it a challenge for us to manage that being ETH Denver,
right. So we're, we're not crypto
Denver, we're not blockchain Denver, We're not anything like
that. We're we're very much Ethereum
first, but managing that's been really interesting because the
narratives have been tried to push here and there based on
what other people's interests are, but we've tried to kind of
manage it based on market kinetics.
And then also just what we feel like is, you know, at least net
neutral to Ethereum or net positive for Ethereum this.
Episode is brought to you by Near AI Cloud.
Open Claw is one of the biggest stories in AI right now.
Rapidly, it gained over 200,000 GitHub stars with adoption from
Silicon Valley to Beijing. Why?
Because Openclaw makes it easy to create an AI agent that
actually does stuff like manage your emails, browse the web,
schedule appointments, and remember contacts across weeks
of interaction. But where do you securely store
and run an always on agent that needs persistent access to your
most sensitive data? Local deployment means you have
to manage expensive hardware at home, and traditional cloud
means surrendering full access to your data to some cloud
provider. Near AI Cloud solves this
problem by running open claw inside trusted execution
environments. These are hardware levels secure
on place where your agent operates in encrypted memory
that even Near AI can't inspect. It's not a promise that they
won't look, it's cryptographic guarantees that they can't.
With Open Claw on Near AI Cloud, you get cloud convenience
without data exposure. There's no hardware to manage
and no trust assumptions required.
You can learn more at Near dot AI.
What do you think the narrative should be, and what do you kind
of see as competition for that? What do I think that marriage
should be? Well, that's a good question.
I think that Ethereum, like the Foundation, should take a more
prominent role in discussing the road map of where the community
should go. I think they should.
That is not a position that they share, at least not up till this
point. I think, you know, I've worked a
lot with Tamash and he's done an excellent job.
He's still executive director for three more days, I guess,
but he's done an an amazing job at sort of creating more, I
guess you could say structural vision and just, you know, like
intentionality around moving to where the puck is and like
actually even guiding where the puck goes.
No more. The infinite garden.
Yeah, I, I mean, I look, I was never, I'm a 25 year
entrepreneur, OK? The infinite garden always came
off to me as a little naive and a little bit unrealistic.
I think it's not uncommon for people younger, especially in
their young 20s, to like have idealism as their sort of core
philosophy. Like let me look back in
history. This is not the first time that
youth have been idealistic about how things should be.
We're just now sort of taking a technological viewpoint to it
versus something that's a little bit more just, you know, analog.
But like, still, I think human behavior is a very complex
thing. And you can't assume that people
are just going to behave in ways that on paper makes sense.
Like humans don't always follow what you think are good
incentives, or they might not always do what you feel like is
the right thing. And because the right thing is
somewhat dependent on who you ask, right?
There's infinite amounts of like individual incentives and goals,
you know, and then whoever gets to define what's best for the
collective, who gets to decide that, right?
Like, I mean, there's so many variations of outcomes.
In other words, that like designing A technological system
for that is very hard where incentives are aligned at scale
sustainably. And so the infinite garden
thing, you know, I don't know, I mean, I just, I just I think
it's a little too simplistic and I think it's a little too
idealistic. Now do I, do I believe in
positive sum games? Yes.
Do I believe in moving from an scarcity based mindset or
economic model to one that's based in abundance design?
Yes. Do I believe that technology and
you know, crypto economics and the tokenization of all the
things and has the ability to drive those outcomes?
I believe that I'm still in the camp that I think Web 3 is going
to be a thing, especially with the advent of agentic AI on
chain. I think if you expect human
beings to use complex, you know, user interface to like sign a
transaction or manage a private key, if you think that's going
to happen at scale, you're high. It's not going to happen.
People aren't going to do it. But if I have, if age, if
agentic AI becomes a thing, does it matter what blockchain
they're working on? Does it matter what token they
move from here to there or whatever or how that money gets
to you? It doesn't.
So I think, I think that agentic AI and coming on chain is
probably the biggest innovation that we've seen in the 12 years
I've been in it. Yeah.
The, the, the infinite garden, you know, I just, I don't know
it, it just, it's very, it's very complex and, you know, the
notion of abundance at scale to where private property is not
necessary and all these other things.
I don't know, just I just, I don't, I don't see it in, in my
not infinite experience, but I've got enough to know a few
things and I've got a few Gray hairs to prove it.
Like, you know, I just, I don't, I don't have the comprehension
of that in our lifetime. But I do still have lots of
hope. And there's a huge amount of
opportunity now with a Gintic AI combined with the primitives
that we've built already for a decade and building these now
into really usable systems that could very well disrupt most of
what we know in the financial system.
And whether that's going to be dystopian or a super positive
thing, I don't know yet, but I think it's worth a try.
But what does that mean in terms of kind of the the global vision
for Ethereum? Is it kind of is it the the
global financial settlement layer?
Is it the world computer? Is it the anti censorship layer?
Kind of like any of these narratives in principle kind of
work technically, right, But kind of putting 1 front and
center would would help the story because people in here and
they kind of they like stories, right?
Kind of if you say, OK, these are the docs, that's not a very
good story. And if you say, look, this is
this is credibly neutral and because it's very decentralized,
it is it's it's also extremely resilient.
That also doesn't doesn't move people, right?
So kind of like, why, why, why would you care?
So what? What?
What do you think the story should be here?
To the average person. Yeah.
Or to whom? I mean, so I think, yeah, I
think that's a fair question. So kind of both kind of to the
people whom we want to build on this infrastructure rather than
say Solana or base or near and to the people kind of who who
end up using. And so kind of if you if you had
to explain to your non crypto friends why Ethereum is better
than Solana, what do you say? Well, I mean, that's an easy
one. I mean, Solana isn't, isn't,
isn't just sufficiently decentralized in my opinion.
And that's just a function of how many nodes they have
validating their blocks. Their uptime is questionable,
their downtime is unacceptable. And quite frankly, the only use
case that they've demonstrated is meme coins at this point.
So if they've got other things up their sleeve, that's fine.
And I'm I'm rooting for everybody more so in the space
than I am for the banks. OK, so like, don't get me wrong,
I'm not like anti Solana, like I have my criticisms and I have,
but it's based on just objective understanding of, you know, how
these things work now, their design decisions.
You know, they are going to argue one set of things that
they made these these choices about scaling and and getting
product market fit and all that over pure decentralization, and
then we'll decentralize later. Well, it doesn't always work
that way, right? Like, you know, people in power
are very unlikely to give up power, right?
So I don't know, I have my criticisms about it.
I would say DUIOR, do your own research, figure out what you
care about and then align that with what you feel like.
The objective analysis is actually ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok.
These are all good tools nowadays to actually like.
Ask them like what are the features of a good blockchain?
Like theoretically, what should it be?
And do a comparison analysis against all the major chains and
it'll tell you it's not hard to figure out like which ones are
actually doing it. Etherium isn't impenetrable.
Etherium isn't the guaranteed winner.
I think that Etherium, what I said earlier about Etherium
needs to take a more prominent role in figuring itself out as
far as like what its actual stated goals are versus these
theoretical sort of pseudo religious narratives, right?
Whereas though the infinite garden, it's like, yeah, OK,
well that's not really actionable.
Like how are we actually getting there and what what should we be
doing as, you know, people in the ecosystem?
So what should the narrative be my point of view is I think the
global settlement layer is probably the most likely
everything gets built well, trustlessness is important,
right? It's you don't have to trust
somebody on the other end of a smart contract transaction if we
do this correctly, right, and I don't have to trust the people
running the blockchain either, because it just is and does
right. It just works.
So however we get there, I think largely.
Well, there was a piece that I saw somebody write that said,
well, the non financial use cases for blockchain.
No, they're all financial uses. They're all financial uses.
Dow's are all financial and if teaser financial, you know,
they're all financial in some way.
Like I think it's the World Economic layer, right.
So how do we actually engage in commerce to with each other
globally? I think it it happens on
Ethereum. Now, why the institutional
adoption makes a lot of sense is because, you know, quite
frankly, it's going to be much easier to get people to do
things when they're already on chain.
We were never able over 10 years to get people to come on chain
in droves unless it was for a particular thing like buying an
NFT. But they didn't want to do
everything else in there. They didn't want to do social
Unchained. They didn't want to do all these
other things because it's too complex.
It's not cheaper, better faster, which is kind of the rule of
thumb. So like if you're not going to
get to cheaper better faster, people aren't going to use it
long term unless you're incentivizing them by a lot.
But it's not enough. But it actually looks like
increasingly traditional finance institutions are besting asset,
our own game and they're executing extremely well, right?
So kind of if you look at kind of what Stripe is doing with
integrating staples and crypto rails directly onto global
payment infrastructure. And if you look at what kind of
brings people on chain or kind of what gets them tokens, it's
the revolutes and binances of the web, the Robin Hoods, then
Black Rock is tokenizing assets on Ethereum.
So kind of in many ways, kind of these players are shipping
faster user experience and reaching more users than native
crypto teams. Well, yeah.
They have natural distribution too.
I mean, Stripe already has a huge distribution network for
their analog products, right? So Web 2 is not an unfamiliar
thing to any of these guys. They already have what?
Does that say about us that kind of like we've been trying to do
this for 10 years and kind of failing?
Well, it says. That we were trying to tackle
too many things at once. I think we were trying to get,
we were trying to innovate technology, right, trying to
prove entirely new economic models.
And we're trying to get users to to opt in to using something
that's more difficult than just signing into your bank all the
same time and trying to get product market fit for
completely new things. I mean, we're trying to bowl the
ocean and for trying to bowl the ocean, we did pretty damn good.
But like what I'm saying, what I'm saying is when everybody
comes on chain and look, I'm just going to say it, but like,
it's kind of like when the Roman Catholic Church was formed, it
got, you know how it got formed. I mean, the Emperor Constantine
was basically faced with a situation in Rome where there
was all of these sects of Christianity that had popped up.
And they didn't even really call it Christianity back then.
But there's all these various sort of things happening in Rome
and it was a lot, OK. And they basically TLDR,
Constantine said, well, if you can't beat them, join them.
He couldn't stop it. He tried, he tried, or even his
predecessors tried like, but he claimed that he had this big
vision where the, you know, the Roman army would had this big
cross on their shield. So he felt compelled to convert
to Christianity and then like, oh, well, we're just going to
make it the state based religion and all this.
Well, what was that really? What that was a Co opting of
Christianity is what it was. So the principles of
Christianity were up for debate. We had dozens and dozens of
various types of sex believing different things.
And he wanted to consolidate it to one thing.
And then he outlawed everything else, right.
So the council of Isaiah and all that, the kind of canonization
of the Bible and all of that became a thing.
So that was that was kind of like the institution's taking
over crypto. Now Fast forward, you know, 1800
years, 1700 years and where are we now?
Well, Christianity is all over the globe.
And it's not just the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is very small component of overall
Christianity, although there are a ton of Catholics.
But generally Christianity is a a worldview now more than it is
just a religion, OK. It is kind of how a lot of
people operate from a principles perspective.
And it all started, you know, you can trace it all the way
back, you know, and the real scaling of it happened with
Rome. What's different?
It's really not that different. It's just going to accelerate a
lot faster because it's technology.
And it's not just, you know, I don't have to get on a horse and
go travel somewhere. I get on a boat and go travel
somewhere to spread the good word.
I can literally type it into a Reddit chat and I can do
whatever I want. But if the banks are on chain
and all the payment companies are on chain and everyone's on
chain and everyone you learns how to use these things, and
agent AI is kind of running around doing things for you on
chain. Like what's to stop
decentralized applications from then already having access to
distribution? So kind of let, let me push back
a little bit. So kind of if, if you kind of
look at Jesus's kind of kind of the statements that he actually
made kind of they are not very commensurate with kind of what
Christian doctrine is today, right.
And I did not see the podcast going this way.
So kind of I'm a little I'm a little rusty on on my I'm only.
Using it as an example is not to be precise.
Yeah, I know. But yeah, but in the same way
kind of that kind of Constantine kind of Co opted Christianity as
a tool, kind of banks and financial institutions are doing
the same, right. Kind of like they're not using
it as a paradigm shift, like kind of we thought should happen
in the sense that kind of like this enables coordination at
unprecedented scale and kind of it, it allows collective
ownership of what whatever and the end kind of distributed
reward systems and kind of just making everything fairer and
better with a little man. Kind of, I mean, even kind of
the, the, the platformification argument that kind of you
alluded to in the very beginning with kind of like the Uber of
this and the Uber of that. Kind of like if, if everyone
kind of came onto the same platform, we wouldn't have this,
we wouldn't have the problem. And kind of like your HR, your
HR problems would have gone away and so on.
So kind of the the idea that kind of this would be a paradigm
shift in kind of how societies work that is done away with by
banks just using it as a back end upgrade, right?
By kind of saying, OK, in principle, kind of we're we're
now we're kind of we're we're, we're.
But what's the ban? What's the banks?
What's the banks mode though? So I agree with you that that if
that's where it ends, then we've completely and totally failed.
Yeah, if that's where it ends. And I think for some people, the
Co opting of crypto by the banks, by the financial
institutions is failure. I think some people actually
believe this. What I'm saying though, is once
the cat's out of the bag or the genies out of the bottle when it
comes to, you know, the the tools, the crypto tools and
making it easier for people to just function on chain, How do
you stop any of these other things from researching again,
what's the bank's mode like? What's if I if I can, if I can
cut out? So let's put it this way.
The bank's coming on chain isn't going to save me any money as a
consumer. It's not going to save me a
dime. They're not going to charge me
less for my meet my visa transactions that I swipe.
Because they sell it on Arbitrum or whatever, OK, They're not
going to charge me less. It's a way for them to automate
and abstract complexities away on their end so they can charge
me more probably. OK, when when PayPal charges
you, you know, or even anybody charges you just to move crypto
around, well, we're charging you 2 1/2%.
It's like, why are you charging Me 2 1/2%?
It's the same thing that we're already doing.
Why do I, why do I care about crypto?
Because supposedly it's peer-to-peer cashless
transactions. I pay a small fee, I send money
to you, you receive it on chain. I can verify that you received
it on chain because the blockchain said it happened.
And all we're doing is moving the Ledger numbers around, you
know, at the end of the day, and cool, it's great.
But it's not fundable. It doesn't compose right, kind
of like say you're, you're on Revolute, kind of like your,
your, your ETH on Revolute. You can't do anything with that
with with it that they're not explicitly permitting you to do.
I kind of right What? What, what I'm saying though, is
like once, so the only reason why crypto didn't scale bigger
than it is or didn't really make it in mainstream because we
didn't have distribution. So if you look at the adoption
curve of things, you know, like there's a the, the typical
adoption curve, we were down here in the early adopters,
right? So those people are willing to
do things that other people aren't to adopt things based on
philosophy is based on an ethos. And we got all those guys.
OK, so we start, we started building things for those guys
because they're willing to do all the things and sign all the
transactions and degen all the things and whatever.
But we could never get up into the deep, the steeper kind of
pieces of the mid adoption and the later adoption and all that.
We could never get there. And it's because again, we're
trying to do too many things at once and we just didn't have
distribution because it's not easy to use.
So we never solved UX, we never solved UI and we basically are
now looking to solve it through institutional adoption.
But I don't think it's start stops there.
In the end, what are the banks going to be able to do to
protect their, you know, their, their Moat?
Like is it going to be possible that regulated collectively
owned digital cooperatives, for example, exist on chain?
Yeah, it's going to happen. So credit unions at scale, high
frequency ethereal network, state based credit unions are
going to eat the banks. OK, so but that's once
everybody's on chain. We weren't able to do it because
no one's on chain and nobody knows what it is.
Nobody trusts it. It's like, oh, it's too Sperry,
oh Terra Luna, oh SPF. Oh, I see OS oh meme coins.
Oh, Trump, you know, it's like, OK, let him go on chain and then
we're going to build around it and we're going to basically
build better products than what the banks have.
And we'll just once the distribution networks are on
chain, now we can actually do the things that we want to do.
It's it was just, it was too ambitious to completely without
simplicity and users. And like for users, you can't
get everybody to do it, even if it's the best thing ever.
Now I'll just use my own experience, OK, If I have a
choice to take out an Ave. loan against my assets or to deal
with a bank forever and over and over and over and over again
with my KYC and this and that and all this.
I would even rather KYC with Ave. just, you know, have my
portable. I was talking to the SEC about
this last week. You know, let's let's have
portable KYC and there's companies working on this,
right? That that actually, like, for
example, if I had a company that I went to and and got my
identity verified, I could go get my KYC.
It's on my wallet, It's a soul bound token.
I could go to Hove. I can automatically log in, it's
verified that I'm good. And then I can take put put put
up my assets and I can take out a loan.
Yeah. Why would I want to deal with
the bank? Why would I ever go to a bank if
I can just do that? OK, the answer.
I wouldn't, but we didn't do it because nobody knows about any
of this and it's like they don't trust it.
But once it becomes normal, people are going to do it, and
they're going to leave banks in droves because they don't really
want to deal with banks, but they're necessary evils.
I financed my house with a maker CDP years ago, so kind of there
you. Go.
But to be to be fair, I, I would have gotten a better rate with
my local bank, but it doesn't matter.
Well, actually I got a fantastic rate because I borrowed, because
I borrowed USD. So kind of and paid for my house
in euros. So it's.
Yeah. Anyways, I want to share your
enthusiasm, but I don't, I don't for various reasons.
So kind of this idea that kind of we just need to get people
here and then we can get them to care about this.
I think this is something they don't.
Care about it. So kind of exactly.
No, no, they don't care about it because.
I've I've actually, I've actually had my people, Paul
kind of pretty regular people about ownership.
So kind of we, we, we kind of so kind of my company knows this.
So kind of we we were going to start an on chain neo bank
that's kind of like the modern version of a cooperative bank,
right, where basically everyone kind of Co owns the bank and
kind of that means and I mean cooperative banking it it used
it used to be huge. It's still huge in some parts.
It's still. Used in, I mean used in the US
regionally, it's not a national scale thing, but regionally it's
very big here. It's actually this, this is
funny because kind of it's, it's, it's kind of, it shows you
that Germans are kind of the, the sort of people who kind of
bring spreadsheets to the party. So kind of we, we, we have, we
are on the UNESCO wide heritage, untangible wide heritage,
intangible wide heritage list for cooperative banking.
So kind of, and I mean other other countries have like Italy
has pizza culture and Belgium has beer and Spain has flamenco
and kind of we have cooperative banking.
That's how cool we are. So, so yeah, so kind of and kind
of so we know a lot of people very German of us.
Yeah. So kind of, so we part a lot of
people about ownership and kind of show them pictures of OK,
this is this is Revolute. It's a billion dollar company
who helped build it. You own 0%, the investors own
70%, the founders own 30%. How does that make you feel?
And people don't care. So The thing is the the, the the
sad thing is people don't care because they but.
But but people don't. Care.
Well, I think it's more what am I going to do about it?
Yeah, I don't know, because kind of for other problems that kind
of have a similar to have kind of a similar output matrix kind
of we also don't care. So kind of if you for instance,
look at privacy, so kind of everyone knows that kind of
having a Proton e-mail is probably better than having a
Gmail. It's also free kind of it's it's
feature. It kind of it offers feature
parity, but for some reason still everyone has a Gmail
address because people are lazy and they don't don't like to
move right as all kind of increments.
Well, and I think I think the reality is the worst that people
have used our data for us to try to sell us more stuff.
You know, if they started using it politically or to put you in
jail, I think you'd care a lot more.
We are. Using it politically, kind of.
They are. They're.
Starting to more they are definitely.
Look, I agree with you that there is a possibility that
regardless of how much good intention and good economic
modeling and incentive structure that we build, that humans,
because of human frailty and laziness, are just going to
default to what's easiest. Now, if we can make it easiest
to do the things that are, you know, better for them, that's
how you win. You've got to make it cheaper,
better, faster. If you can't make crypto
cheaper, better, faster. That's how market physics work.
Cheaper, better, faster. The reason why Google wins is
because it's it's fully integrated into everything.
It's Oauth into everything. Like I can manage it.
I can do it from my phone. They've made a user experience
so easy that like I'm literally willing to trade my privacy for
it. You know it's sharp, isn't it?
It is, and I can't say that I'm completely innocent on that.
Like I, I probably am on a scale of 1 to 100 in terms of like
living all of the Web 3 principles and probably 5050,
you know, like I'm 6040 maybe if I'm generous to myself.
So I don't know, I I think that big organizations are not going
to go down without a fight. I think they're going to try to
protect or Co opt anything that gets in their way, even quietly
if they can. Like the whole stablecoin thing,
the maker CDP, we don't even really do make or die anymore,
you know, like it, it's still there.
You can still do it. But like the collateral that we
use was largely USDC. So it's like you're
collateralizing with a counterparty asset, you know,
like it's. A few word assets now it's
T-bills and so on because kind of yeah, yeah, it's going.
More that direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, exactly. So I mean, and some of that's
not all bad, but like, I mean, at least the the permission to
use it is permissionless, right. So whether or not you've got
counterparty risk, I mean, the US financial system has a ton of
counterparty risk. So I mean, the whole global
economic system has a ton of counterparty risk.
So like to say that Oh, well, Dye is not officially
decentralized. It's not like USDC doesn't have
counterparty risk. Of course it does.
So like, yeah, the volatility is probably the more the the weapon
or the the the enemy of decentralized stable coins
because even 1% volatility seems like a lot when you're moving
around a lot of USDC, right? So people don't like it.
So they like the solid peg of $1.00 is $1.00.
They like that and that's how USDC got its market dominance in
the US And that's how, I mean, that's how USDT got it
internationally. You know, just parody.
It's always a dollar anyways. I, I don't, I don't disagree
with you. I'm being, I'm saying best case
scenario, the way I see it and the thing I'm working toward is,
you know, look, the, I think the financial system coming on chain
is inevitable. I think it makes sense for them.
I think if if I'm them, there's huge Greenfield opportunities
and market share and and all sorts of revenue streams that
can come from this. I mean, stable coins are
probably the most profitable use cases would come out of crypto.
So it's all it's, it's, it's inevitable and natural that they
would do that. It's very rational thinking on
their behalf, on their on their behalf.
So I'm not going to get in the way of that, but I almost think
like to an extent, it's like bringing the Trojan horse
inside, you know, Because once everyone's using these things
more commonly, and if we legitimately figure out scaling
issues where we're not paying 2 and 3% for where I can literally
send you a wire transfer peer-to-peer with, you know,
cost me $0.25. People are going to use it.
If it's easy to use, for example, easy to use to me would
be imagine a future state where I have a self sovereign AI agent
bot. OK, and let's call him Buffy.
OK, so Buffy is my bot and I just, you know, one day he's on
my phone, he's in my telegram. I was like, oh man, you know, I
forgot to send Frederick that 50 bucks that I owe her.
Can you send that to her right now?
Done. I don't need to sign anything.
He's already got access to a wallet that has some
discretionary money. You know he can go do it right
now. He can even send me back if I
want the Etherscan transaction receipt and it's done.
Can already do that and it it doesn't and that's what I'm.
Saying it's like but imagine it being so easy the average guy
down the streets doing it OK but open I'm just.
Saying easy to use have have you I.
Know but I'm of course I've tried it like we just had a huge
component of east Denver that was all claws out AI open claw
agents. We built literally Buffy bot the
thing I'm talking about to be the Co host of the opening
ceremonies. We built an AI agent to do that.
So like, it doesn't even have to be 5 years from now.
But what I'm saying is it might take five years for your next
door neighbor down the street who knows nothing about crypto
to be doing this that. But it will inevitably happen
though, because it's like, oh, well, crypto's not scary because
it's now everyone uses it, right?
Right now, nobody wants to touch it.
It's just, it's an evolutionary thinking.
It's it's partially generational thinking and it's part just
evolutionary thinking around what's acceptable, what's scary,
what's risky. And once things are not seen as
risky, people are just going to do it.
So kind of when we zoom out by what, what metric do you think
we should monitor to see whether blockchain is actually making
the world a better, fairer place?
So kind of is it since things like, I don't know, self custody
adoption or new cooperative modules or censorship resistance
or capital formation without intermediaries, I mean, there's,
there's an endlessness, right? Oh my goodness, what are the
metrics? Sorry, it's.
Just a little bit of kind of like it's, it's kind of like
like putting my finger on it because I, I, I feel like it's,
it's something sometimes where we idealists kind of we blank,
right? You say, oh, but clearly this is
better infrastructure. Clearly this is fair for people.
Clearly this is but kind of like how?
How will people's lives actually improve?
Well, I think a common metric is GDP per capita.
I think right now, for example, cooperatives contribute to about
$600 billion in GDP for the USI think it'll be really
interesting to see like how are we going to measure the network
state GDP, not the USGDP, not the German GDP, not the EUGDP,
but like the GDP of the network state, meaning on chain.
I think that's really interesting metric to follow.
I think that you're going to see active daily users balloon, but
then we got to know like, what does that mean?
Like how much you know, what does that equate to in terms of
transactions? So I think average transaction
might be an interesting metric to see.
And like geographically, what geographically where are people
using it? Like if the network state really
takes hold, you're going to see people globally doing business
with each other. And that's going to be pretty
hard to get away from seeing it. And I don't think it's going to
be easy to measure like India's GDP versus the USGDPI think
you're going to have to start measuring network state GDP.
So and then what is that? How, how do we actually analyze
that in the context of what we know is, is, is existing kind of
metrics and fundamentals? I don't know the exact metric
that's going to nail it, nail it like the North Star metric that
you might say and like a business pitch like, well,
here's our North Star metric. Here's how we measure
everything. I'd have to think on that for a
little while. But like, I think it's probably
something around on chain activity.
Like we look at ghost chains, right?
They have all this activities, but then you look at it and
there's no one really moving anything around.
It's just nonsense. Etherium is probably the best
one because you can see the total active users or the
monthly active users. You can see the transaction
volume and that's sort of a correlation to to ecosystem
health. Now, how do we see the
difference between whether somebody at at BlackRock is
using Etherium versus somebody who really needs it in Mexico or
somewhere like that's a good question because anonymity or
pseudonymity is going to be a thing in the future even more
the more so than it is today. I don't know how you're going to
measure that, but does it? Matter that it's by people who
really need it. Well, does it matter?
I think it matters because if all we're doing is creating a
better system for the banks to move stuff around between each
other, than it's just vanity project that.
That, that, that's totally, I mean, that's, that's, that's
totally fair. And I, I, I, I conquer.
But kind of if, if you kind of say the, the the average
transaction size is kind of like what you're looking for.
We'd have to have some way to delineate enterprise Oregon
institutional movement versus just average movement.
I don't know that we're going to have that.
So I'll tell you what I'm going to punt on this particular
question because I think it's a good one.
And the next time we talk, I'm going to have a better answer
for this. But I think there's there's some
economic measurement here that that is going to, but we can't
get away from the fundamentals that GDP is what drives the
world. We can't we'd be foolish to say
that we're going to get away from GDP in general.
I just don't think that's going to happen.
I don't see how you. I mean, GDP is also somewhat
misrepresentative, right? So kind of for instance, Germany
has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia, West Virginia,
which is the, the poorest state in the US and kind of quality of
living is, is much higher than it is in West.
So kind of it's, it's kind of it's an, it's an imperfect
measure, right? But kind of if you look at
things like economic agency, for instance, kind of like how, how
much, how much choice do I have in what I can do?
How do you? Measure that.
If I if I want a loan, how how hard pressed for choice am I
kind of do I have one payday lender or kind of do I have the.
Right, infinite opportunities on on Chan or whatever, Yeah.
And then I think what, what also might be kind of, I, I know this
is somewhat dystopian, but I feel that kind of censorship
resistance might become much more important in the future.
And I mean, you kind of, you can see how kind of large tech
companies kind of kind of lose their principles faster than
you'd like. Well.
You know, it's I there was some censoring that happened recently
with Tether. Did you see that?
No where they they froze the accounts of certain, they froze
the assets of certain people in their USDT.
OK. I mean, it happens all the time.
I mean, basically it's it's fully, it's fully permission to
adjust as, as as USDC and so on. So kind of, I mean, basically
it's yeah, it's it's, yeah, it's.
You're on a blacklist. And.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, You know, the, the libertarian to me doesn't
like any of that stuff because it's like, you know, a lot of
that's just subjective political warfare.
And, you know, I don't know, not all of it, but a lot of it is.
And, you know, you could say we're doing the good work and
all of this, but, you know, we all know that political pressure
and political censoring is the oldest tool in the kit when it
comes to like, you know, you know, tamping down the
opposition or whatever from, you know, removing you from power or
whatever. So I don't know, it's a hard
problem. I think privacy is going to be,
you know, the censorship resistance is really correlated
to privacy. And if you've got privacy, then
you don't have to worry about censorship resistance as much
because I can do things privately.
But then you've got all the worries about I would.
I was just meeting with the SEC last week.
And, you know, there is a deep belief by Commissioner Purse
that who's the crypto task force leader that, you know, privacy
is a fundamental human right. That's her personal view and.
And I mean, that's, that's, that's admirable.
I mean too often, I know. Elected, I know well, and she's
not elected. She's an appointed official and
she is. But she's very well respected
inside her community and ours for these points of view.
But what's sad is the US Congress, there are people on
both sides of the aisle that actually, you know, want the
government to be able to see everything.
And it's just like, yeah, it is. I mean, it really is.
And and you know, I was AI was a victim of the operation choke .2
point OI got debanked after 26 years of relationship with Wells
Fargo and no explanation, no nothing, just a letter in the
mail saying you're done and the decisions final.
And there you, we, we can't tell you anything about it.
And it's happened, it's it's, it's happened happening
systematically. So kind of the the judges at The
Hague were recently put on the economic sanctions by the US
because of judgement they had reached in relation to Benjamin
Netanyahu. And so basically which meant
that kind of other banks debanked them.
They kind of were de platformed from tech platforms.
They, their Google accounts were closed and they're not even able
to kind of book a flight anymore because kind of they can't have
a Visa or MasterCard because those are US entities.
And kind of like it. It's kind of the the guy who
gave the interview, he said it's basically like being in the 90s
again. If I want to go to a hotel, I
have to call them and say, look, I want to come day, day after
tomorrow. Do we have do you have a
vacancy? Yeah.
And it's crazy. And I think kind of just the
fact that, and I mean, this is not a terrorist, right?
Kind of like these are the judges at the at the
International. And it depends on who you ask,
right? I mean, it sounds like, it
sounds like the US is treating them kind of kind of like
terrorists. Yeah, exactly.
Today, yeah. So, yeah.
So maybe you find the question. So kind of when you kind of
think about the next couple of years and kind of you say that
you are very good at kind of predicting trends.
So what, what, what do we absolutely need to get right for
kind of this kind of in higher ownership narrative agency kind
of paradigm shift to matter structurally?
Do you think it's kind of like it's things like user experience
or interop or governance or economic sustainability or
where, where, where do you think kind of we should?
What do you think we should pay most attention to?
Well, I have a personal belief that we don't, especially in the
US, we don't have currently a legal framework that would
actually support the network state appropriately at the
federal level. So if you look at the
contortionist act that we've put together in terms of launching
tokens and doing TG, ES and things, we've done it basically
around a very murky regulatory environment.
And we've done it, you could say with creative lawyering and
using offshore entities to skirt the system, right?
So we've launched what would be in the US essentially A
securities, but we do it offshore or we do it to cutesy
ways like governance. What do you?
Mean this is a governance token. Right.
It's. It's, it's a governance token
for, for Ave. And like, yeah, but I mean, this
goes against the entire principle of the the number one
coordination mechanism in the history of mankind is profit.
Profit is a wonderful coordination mechanism because
we can profit, we can coordinate around profits much better than
we can probably coordinate around decision making much
better. But we don't have a way in the
US, for example, to share profits.
So with with non accredited investors without a lot of
complexities and without a bunch of crap that it just doesn't
work. So we've created things like Dow
LLC's and Doonas and all these things to like do that.
Well, I've been working on a project that I think is probably
one of the most. And of course I think my baby's
cute. But like, I think it's important
to get the legal stuff right. So what we did was we built a
proposal for Congress to include in clarity in the clarity Act,
which is currently in Congress to basically give a federal
exemption for cooperatives from securities registration.
So it's like The Reg D for co-ops.
So we call it regulation membership.
So anybody who's curious about that can go to
regulationmembership.com and you can see see what we're working
on. So I think the legal framework
has to be right. So if we're not going to get to
the, if we can't get the legal framework right, I don't think
any amount of, you know, acutely lawyering or engineering around,
you know, trying to work around stuff is going to actually get
us where we want to go. I understand the reason why we
don't want to be securities tokens.
And I don't think that that network state tokens should be
securities. I think that if you're actively
participating in a business or protocol, then that should be
exempt because it's my work, not somebody else's.
That's the, IT doesn't pass the Howie test, in other words.
So that's why regulation membership is so important.
OK. Now other than that, I think the
single most important proliferation in Web 3 is
agentic AI by a landslide. So what do we need to get right
with that? I think user usability, yes,
it's very easy to set up open claw, I know.
But I would say there are going to be optimizations and
methodologies and security and making sure that you don't let
your you know, Austin Griffith was telling a story at East
Denver the other day about how his open claw agent tried to
export his private key. And you know the you know.
So This is why you do it on. A virtual machine.
Right. No, I know and and it's but, but
there's that. You think that's going to be the
beginning and the end of it? No, we're going to have a whole
bunch of problems with this. So I think the smart maturation
of self sovereign agents where my agent isn't controlled by
Google, my agent is running locally on my hardware, whether
it's my phone or or it's my machine or whatever, it works
only for me. And that combining with the
primitives that we've already built, call it the sort of
agentic Legos, you know, how do we build, you know, the crypto
economy with the primitives, the money Legos that we talked
about, but building around it with a gentecag Legos to
interact with other agents that abstracts complexities from
humans in a legitimate way, making it cheaper, better,
faster, because I don't have to spend time.
It's just easier to do. I think those two things,
getting the legalities right and getting the agentic AI right are
the most important things. But then not too far behind is
we really got to get privacy right.
We've got to get privacy right. And I think it has something to
do with 0 knowledge identity. So like how do I prove who I am
without me having to tell every person that I interact with who
I am? How can I, with a 0 knowledge
proof, prove who I am on chain so that even if I've got some
weird pseudonym like original buffer corn right, nobody needs
to know who I am and I can transact freely on the Internet
because there's a zero knowledge proof that I've been verified.
But how do you do that safely without being censored in an
inappropriate way? That's the question.
Exactly. Fantastic John, it's been a
pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
And where can people find out more about your baby and
Ethanville? Well, ethanville.com is the the
most common place. If you're looking for content,
go to our YouTube channel. So just look up Ethan Denver or
an Etherium Denver on YouTube. We also have presence on X.
You know, it's quieting, quieting down quite a bit now
because you know, most of that's kind of over for a season.
If you're interested in the legality side of things, go to
regulationmembership.com. That's my personal project and
then my day jobisopolis.co OPOLI s.co.
That's the US based employment platform that we built for
independent workers and you know, digital nomads and you
know, solopreneurs and things that or Dow workers that don't
have an employer to give them legitimacy, payroll and
benefits, including health insurance in the US.
So that's where you go. Thank you.
Thank you so much. You're.
Welcome. Thank you.