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Hi, welcome to epicenter of the 
podcast. 

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Where were you for crypto 
Founders? 

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Builders and thought leaders. 
I'm suggesting questio. 

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And today, I'm here with Brian, 
Fabian, crane fed, AKA Ernst and

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sunny Agarwal. 
Today. 

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We're, we're doing our yearly 
tradition of having a epicenter 

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host. 
Just Extravaganza episode where 

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we just get to Talk Amongst 
ourselves. 

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Talk about what happened in the 
last year and where we think 

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things are going and usually 
break apart our predictions from

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the previous year. 
Before we do that. 

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I'd like to tell you my 
responses today. 

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We pair of swap. 
You can beat the market price 

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every single block. 
It's fast as highly liquid and 

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they just launched 35, which has
a new contract and new apis. 

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It has a more modular 
infrastructure, which is more 

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gas friendly and now supports 
free approvals using If you're a

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permit messages, they also 
recently launched to support for

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Avalanche polygon and BSC. 
And you can always use a swap 

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with your Ledger device right in
let you live. 

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If you go to Paris w, .i o to 
get started. 

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If you have crypto assets, 
sitting idly in your wallet. 

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Well, you need to do something 
about that and you should start 

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earning rewards and contributed 
to network security by staking. 

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With course, one there is taking
providers, securing five billion

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in assets for over 25. 
Decentralized networks, 

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including Solana Cosmos in 
aetherium. 

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And if you're interested in 
running your own branded nodes, 

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well, of course one has a highly
available and robust 

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infrastructure, which allows you
to run your own, white label 

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node. 
Enabling you to participate 

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directly in decentralized 
networks. 

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So head over to chorus dot one. 
To start your staking Journey 

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today guys. 
Thanks for being here today and 

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taking part in this yearly 
tradition of yeah, talking about

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what happened this year and 
what's happening next year. 

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So well, So the best part of 
epicenter, I just grind through 

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the rest of it just to get to 
these yearly episodes. 

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Yeah, and like every year we 
say, we're going to do this more

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often, but we never end up doing
it more often so much. 

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You have to take what Sonny says
today with a grain of salt. 

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Because for him, it's really 
already. 

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He's a, he's over in Puerto Rico
and it's noonish for the rest of

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us and Sonny got up, especially 
Yeah, really appreciate it. 

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Sunny. 
So, yeah, I think like, there's 

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lots of different themes that we
want to talk about today. 

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And so I think we'll start with,
you know, what were the big 

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themes this year and how we 
perceive them into an ni, you 

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know, themes for the future. 
And how we think things are 

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going to evolve in the next year
or two. 

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I think the thing that everybody
had brought up and it's probably

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on everyone's mind is like and 
if T's ha like and if he's 

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absolutely blew up this year. 
So, you got, you were not 

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surprised, but somewhat 
surprised. 

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So basically, I mean, yeah, so 
basically the nft is thing, it 

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caught me, totally, by surprise.
The really I always thought that

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nft is were coming. 
But very much not in the way 

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that they've actually arrived. 
So, basically, to me the way 

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that they have manifested 
themselves is mostly in the 

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status as a Still Main. 
And I thought that basically nft

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is what manifest themselves in 
the in the realm of all things 

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Financial but non fungible, 
which is actually the majority 

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of assets. 
So yeah, totally surprised. 

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You think that this current form
and appease is what's going to 

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be like that, what's used 
long-term like I do, is it? 

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So, what I'm personally, really 
interested in is, like, figuring

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out how do you like, use at ftes
in, like, more defy, protocols? 

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I think most of defy, currently 
is like, it's like one 

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prediction I have, which I know 
may be true. 

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But I think that, like, defying 
and of teas are gonna become 

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more and more like combined with
each other, right? 

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Because I think that like, you 
know, what's Defy Kurdish really

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built around these fungible 
tokens. 

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And like you mentioned like, you
know, most Finance Financial 

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assets are like entities, if you
want to like bring like homes 

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and stuff onto a blockchain, 
like we need to have like those 

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BNF keys. 
And if I want to have a protocol

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that gets a mortgage on those 
homes, you need to have defy the

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interact with those entities. 
Now the thing is like, yes, I 

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agree with you that like, you 
know, third pfp and of T is 

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profile pic and and of tease, 
you know, they're not exactly 

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that. 
But I think like, you know, Oh, 

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they're just like s to 
groundwork and there you can 

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think of them as these are the 
easiest things to build. 

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And so that's why they got there
what got built first and you 

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know, there's all this stuff 
that's building this like 

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tooling around them and that 
will be usable for more things. 

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Well, it's I mean, it's 
interesting, right? 

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Because like anything eise. 
I mean, they've been around for 

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a while. 
But actually I think the first 

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use case of any tea that I 
remember clearly is like 

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centrifuge, right? 
And they've been working on this

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for like years and years. 
And that was actually exactly 

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that, right? 
Because they have basic enfps 

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for like non fungible Financial 
assets, where you would 

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basically have like an energy 
for some sort of loan, and then 

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they would get pulled. 
And then You'd have like a 

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fungible token that is them back
by using ft. 

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So like you've had you've had 
that it just hasn't taken off in

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the way that it did around all 
kinds of stuff. 

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No, no. 
No, it's not. 

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It's not just profile pictures, 
right? 

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It's like all kinds of like art.
The interesting thing about the 

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art thing is, I mean, I remember
very well. 

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The so, you know, this is team. 
Team that now works on Ocean 

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protocol, but they've had a 
bunch of freed assessors, right?

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So, they had this thing called 
Big Chain. 

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You be at one point and before 
that, they had a thing called, 

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The Scribe, and describe, was 
basically be basically doing 

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something like, and if he is 
rather like cracking art 

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ownership on the Bitcoin 
blockchain, and I remember 

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having a lot of discussions with
them back. 

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Then this was a 2015, 14, maybe 
14. 

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And because I was so positive. 
Also, like, how is this is 

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having value, right? 
Because, like, you have to 

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Define this like separate, you 
can still copy like there are 

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thing, but then you have to stay
still ownership, and this is 

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really how value. 
And I remember having these 

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discussions with him and like, 
yeah, 2014. 

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And then, of course that didn't 
take off, but now it is, but it 

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makes sense to me in a way, 
right? 

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Because I think you have 
something where you, you didn't 

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have a market before. 
For like, it was basically not 

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possible to kind of trade, a lot
of these intangible pictures, 

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images, ideas memes. 
And now you can have it. 

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And that's a pretty huge, I 
think. 

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I feel like, I mean, the thing 
that I'm most interested in it 

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with regards to nifty's at least
in the next couple of years. 

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Like, I don't know how this 
plays out, sort of like more. 

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I'm not sure. 
I have fully formed ideas about 

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the how this plays out with 
non-financial assets, like, 

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homes and loans, and things like
that. 

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But the whole pfp thing and sort
of the status of the service for

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me, I think can serve as a sort 
of a base layer for new forms of

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social networks where financial 
services and this kind of ties 

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in. 
Into like what you were saying 

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earlier, so I like fine, social 
networks and financial products,

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kind of like end up merging and 
it's like the the 

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financialization of status and 
the financialization of these 

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sort of like, in this sort of 
like intangible idea of status 

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and I can see where, you know, 
these things start getting 

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boostrap where infps are 
actually used as collateral. 

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So, like you kind of steak 
you're in a key in this, these 

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you're in a teasing this new in 
these new networks, and then, 

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From there, these sort of new 
social networks would issue 

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tokens that that users could use
to like using defy things like 

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that. 
Like, it's not fully formed by 

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like this is where I see like at
least of the pfp aspect of an 

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EFT. 
He's heading in the next couple 

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years. 
Yeah. 

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I think that's two overlapping 
things here. 

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Right? 
So, basically, the SNF teas and 

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then there are social tokens, 
right? 

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And I mean basically tokens, 
that kind of grant you access to

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The Network's to me, that's a 
different use case. 

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It's not because nft is to me. 
This is a very clearly 

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one-dimensional thing where 
basically you have an exact 

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price point for each n ft. 
And so on and for social tokens,

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it kind of allows for much more 
for much richer Dynamic, right? 

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What are some examples of social
tokens and talking about? 

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So for, I think the first ones 
were the Friends with Benefits 

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people at, but I think it's 
proliferated. 

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So actually, I am not 
particularly active because I 

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have two little time, but I know
there's tons of tons of social 

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networks out there that are gate
kept by tokens. 

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So, here's one like, option of 
what You know, I agree that I 

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think a lot of NF teas are 
currently being used effectively

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as like social gaming tokens 
Community tokens and maybe maybe

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what's going on is that these 
are it's a sort of proof of 

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work, right? 
Because you know, once you have 

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an EOC 20 standard kind of 
thing, it's very easy for anyone

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to just go mint a token and just
like release it. 

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And I say, oh this is a 
community token, right? 

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But it's like if everyone 
touching that then like, you 

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know, maybe it's the barrier to 
entry is just like so small. 

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Small. 
But it's gonna get flooded with 

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all these Community tokens, 
other lose their value. 

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I think by making them ftes and 
like having to put some artwork 

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into it. 
The community Creator had to 

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sort of look a bit of proof of 
work that they have to do. 

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They have to do this like 
minimum threshold of like 

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investing like finding an artist
and like creating at least like,

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you know, whether it's generally
like Auto generative or like 

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hand drawn or something, but you
have to like create like, you 

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know, okay, I got to go create 
10,000 artworks and then you can

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have this, like, Community 
token. 

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Yeah, I think I think one of the
things that's important to 

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recognize here is the importance
of first and you know, like on a

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theory in like the the sort of 
first big and ft projects like, 

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you know, the crypto pumps or 
whatever. 

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Like those are going to have. 
Those are going to remain 

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valuable like for a long time, 
like the first crypto bunker, 

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like the first generative art or
like the first like pixelated 

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art or whatever and then like, 
you know, on Solana, the 

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equivalent of that is like DJ. 
So I think that's the first kind

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of like pfp. 
And I'm like everything else 

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kind of like comes like Goes To 
Zero from the Army. 

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Like, you know, the prices are 
like, don't maintain the same 

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value. 
So I think like the kind of Blue

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Chip and ftes will remain 
valuable on every platform. 

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And then, like once in a while. 
There's going to be like, a 

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first of something, like, it is 
gonna be a first up, some new 

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kind of art, whether it's like 
visual art or film, or, or or 

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audio or music. 
And you know, that will happen 

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on a theorem. 
It will happen on salon. 

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And these kind of like new 
experiences will always remain 

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sort of like the Pinnacle of 
like what people expect and if 

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to use to deliver the value and 
the floor price will probably 

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likes a super high and then 
like, everything else is kind of

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copies. 
It kind of goes down from there.

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So two things I want to add, 
what's up. 

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So one is you know, about the 
status thing, you know, I mean, 

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I actually don't think it's that
surprise and I think that's 

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actually been this like missing 
piece in crypto. 

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We're so if you guys know Elaine
who she's like, you know, I 

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really like her blog and I think
I mentioned it in the past 

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couple times, but I remember 
like she had this post from like

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45 years ago where she says 
like, hey people often forget 

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this like other values. 
Like, you know, we talked about 

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the, you know, Reuses of money, 
right? 

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Like medium of Exchange store, 
value and unit of account. 

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00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,200
And say, there's actually this 
like very forth, very commonly 

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used one, which is display of 
wealth, right? 

224
00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:39,900
And she's like, gold is 
actually, you know, made for a 

225
00:12:39,908 --> 00:12:43,100
very good like money because it 
actually served as a good 

226
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:47,000
display of wealth where you 
could turn it into jewelry and 

227
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,700
use it to show off. 
Right? 

228
00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:51,500
And that was something that was 
missing from the digital, like 

229
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:54,400
what what what Bitcoin was and 
like, you know, in a few joke 

230
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,000
like, oh, maybe what we got to 
do is rather hit like, You know 

231
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,100
these like gold chains that have
them like some like trusted 

232
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:03,700
Hardware that like shows, you're
like, Bitcoin balance on your 

233
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:04,300
thing. 
Is it? 

234
00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:05,400
Clear? 
That's not what's happening and 

235
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,500
I think and if he's our sort of 
what came in and like field in 

236
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:13,000
that Gap, all the being the 
display of wealth digital 

237
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,900
Lambos. 
Yeah, they're digital Lambos, 

238
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,600
right? 
Okay. 

239
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,500
So question. 
How about we go around what is 

240
00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,900
everyone's favorite nft 
collection or nft here. 

241
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,100
I mean II. 
So I you know, I my interact 

242
00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:31,400
with any of these been fairly 
limited, you know, there's like 

243
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,100
some things like this centrifuge
or irbid. 

244
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,700
Some that. 
I actually like non-traditional 

245
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:39,700
use cases. 
I bought a few entities. 

246
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,800
When when we were preparing the 
rarer podcast, right? 

247
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,000
Good that because that was kind 
of but otherwise I have not been

248
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,300
very active. 
I have actually not bought any 

249
00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:52,500
kind of a Nifty swimming a 
collection. 

250
00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:56,300
I think I have you. 
Maybe three does this count 

251
00:13:56,300 --> 00:14:01,700
sunny. 
I think that was like so epic. 

252
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:05,000
What they did where like, you 
know, they mentioned that oh, 

253
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000
yes, these be three positions 
are nft is but like when they 

254
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,800
dropped it, they actually had 
like a cool artwork for each n 

255
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,200
ft. 
And I think that like surprise 

256
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,200
anyone and I think that was 
like, so cool. 

257
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:21,100
I also said, I also still have a
very extensive not-safe-for-work

258
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:23,600
collection of clovers. 
I don't know whether you guys 

259
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,600
remember this and I'm still 
waiting for this to come back so

260
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,800
I can dump my clovers bags here.
You have to tell people that 

261
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,000
like, you know, this was like an
OG and if he kills all the OG n 

262
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,200
of P projects are what's like 
become really popular. 

263
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:42,000
It was an OG n ft project. 
I mean this this I mean it's 

264
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,100
like this gent. 
It's this generative art thing. 

265
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:49,300
We're basically Am I on? 
I mean, it's a black and white 

266
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:58,300
thing and basically the the It's
The End state of a goal of a go 

267
00:14:58,300 --> 00:14:58,900
game. 
Right? 

268
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:02,400
So basically it's and so 
basically, it's genitive. 

269
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,800
It's actually super cool. 
But yeah, I feel like there's 

270
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:10,800
not a lot, not a lot of people 
pushing this my favorite and if 

271
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,700
he's that I bought, I bought 
them like way before. 

272
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:17,700
This was any like was The thing,
I mean, I don't know they're not

273
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,000
like worth anything, but I just 
think they're cool. 

274
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,900
And but like there are these 
sort of Ninja Turtle figures on 

275
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,700
you can't really see it here, 
but like with a background of 

276
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:33,800
like the US dollar, they're not 
worth anything, but I just 

277
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,500
thought it was cool to get that 
collection. 

278
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,100
And and of course, you know, my 
junk dick pics. 

279
00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:44,300
Got a and I'm holding onto them 
because I'm convinced I'll hear 

280
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:49,100
be worth something someday. 
I think for me, I think my 

281
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,300
favorite one is it's called 
stacked toads. 

282
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:56,900
And what happens is you get 
these little toads and then you 

283
00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,300
like steak them and what happens
you by staking them, you earn 

284
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,700
stack tokens and you use a stack
tokens, like take the toads and 

285
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:07,200
like, stack them on top of each 
other and you get like a tower 

286
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,500
of toads. 
It is the dumbest thing I've 

287
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:12,900
ever heard, but I think it's 
hilarious and funny and like, 

288
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,800
yeah, and I think what's cool is
it kind of what? 

289
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,900
It did was it started 
introducing a lot of like nft 

290
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:23,300
people to like Concepts from 
like elsewhere and crypto like 

291
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,600
ideas like staking and things 
like this. 

292
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,200
I think that was actually kind 
of pretty cool. 

293
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,300
Well, let's go to the let's go 
to the next topic. 

294
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:34,600
We just sort of I think Sonny 
brought it up. 

295
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,700
No, because he had the entity 
explosion. 

296
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:45,600
And at the same time, we've had 
35, I mean, in some ways, it's 

297
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,600
exploded, right? 
There's been like explosion of 

298
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,600
activity. 
But at the same time, like, defy

299
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,000
tokens that I think were like 
their age. 

300
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,000
It's on point, especially these 
kind of etherium, defy things 

301
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,900
like, you know, maker curve, 
compound urine, etcetera, Etc. 

302
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:10,700
They have not done so well, 
what's going on? 

303
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,000
Yeah. 
This is this an They should I 

304
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:17,300
made recently which was like 
Hey, like, you know, if you go 

305
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,800
to 2020 and you talk about like 
what were the D5 Blue Chips, 

306
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,099
right? 
You know what, we had like make 

307
00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:30,500
our Sushi uni wifey snx comp, 
like all these things. 

308
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:34,900
And like, I think out of all the
D5 Blue Chips, like none of them

309
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:38,100
are in the top 50 by like market
cap anymore other than uni, 

310
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,300
like, you know, Sushi and x n x 
star like Not even in the top 

311
00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:47,700
hundred compound is barely 
hanging on Ave is like, you 

312
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:51,800
know, I don't know number 70 or 
something and it's like, you 

313
00:17:51,808 --> 00:17:56,800
know, it's so, you know, I asked
a lot of people of, you know, I 

314
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,500
was asking if you people like 
more investor e friends. 

315
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:01,800
I'm like, hey, you know, what's 
going on with defy right now? 

316
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,400
Why is it like, just like, not 
know this this slipping in, 

317
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,800
like, valuations? 
And they're like, yeah, 

318
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,500
honestly, I call the in all the 
interest says, like not. 

319
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,800
It's kind of boring. 
Everyone's just more into like 

320
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,600
nft is in gaming now. 
And so I wonder if that's all it

321
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,300
is or if there's something 
deeper going on where like, you 

322
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,800
know, you know, we had these 
like Forks upon Forks upon 

323
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,300
forks, and I wonder if that's 
finally like, you know, starting

324
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,400
to be felt. 
We're like everyone's like 

325
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:31,800
right. 
And you know, we always like 

326
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,800
joked about oh, these are just 
valueless governance tokens, 

327
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,800
right? 
But I think you know, it might 

328
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,400
be coming a little bit true. 
Now where I think a lot of 

329
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,100
people are track starting to 
realize that like, hey do these 

330
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,700
If I tokens really have any 
actual value and it's in for a 

331
00:18:46,708 --> 00:18:49,700
lot of them, they don't even use
useful for governance either. 

332
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:53,900
So, but it's also it happened to
the one project that has had no 

333
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,100
notable, folks, right? 
So, if you look at maker, it's 

334
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:59,800
also slit down. 
It's at like 65 or something. 

335
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:05,300
Now, maybe even that isn't meme 
like the fork of effectively the

336
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:08,300
fork of maker right there. 
Like I think what I think in 

337
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:12,300
2020 everyone else started 
getting forked and like added a 

338
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:17,700
Added like yield farming to the 
forks, right? 

339
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,400
But maker never got forth until 
this year. 

340
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,700
And but now I think spell is 
like flipped maker and like I 

341
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:31,500
think ma'am is actually in the 
top is not in the top 50 by 

342
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:34,000
market cap as there like stable 
coins. 

343
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,500
I think maker actually did get 
out competed or is in the 

344
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:39,200
process of getting out competed 
right now. 

345
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,100
Yeah. 
I mean, I also Guess that 

346
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:47,500
different topic, we're going to 
get to but I also you know 

347
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:51,600
Wonder to what extent. 
There's a factor here that you 

348
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,000
know here in gas costs. 
Just gotten like so crazy 

349
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,200
expensive that actually means. 
Like the, you know, the amount 

350
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,200
of users has really shrunk a 
lot, right? 

351
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,000
Where it's only now, people have
like a huge amount and then, you

352
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,200
know, you have people going to 
lots of other things, whether 

353
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,300
it's, you know, it's Lana, 
Avalanche Cosmos chains. 

354
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,800
Polygon. 
I don't know where and then I 

355
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:24,300
mean that's obviously these defy
blue chips on aetherium. 

356
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:29,100
Have generally not been able to,
you know, like replicate the 

357
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:32,300
success only theorem elsewhere 
or like even that even how does 

358
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:33,100
that work? 
Right? 

359
00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:35,900
I guess always maybe the ones 
who seem to be, like, most 

360
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:38,800
aggressive in trying to do this 
and trying to, like, kind of 

361
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,400
launch of another chains. but 
yeah, I think that's also 

362
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,000
something where like It's not 
working in favor of these D 

363
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,500
fibers of chips. 
So you're saying that there's a 

364
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:57,400
sort of dilution of the user 
base relative to other chains 

365
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,500
and the defy activity happening 
on other chains. 

366
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:03,700
I mean like let's say someone 
now, right, someone new is like 

367
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:09,300
hey, I want to start using like 
crypto and like you're not even 

368
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:11,300
going to tell her. 
I mean, I wouldn't even say to 

369
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:13,600
me like hey, you know, do some 
hearing thing, right? 

370
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,600
Because it's like doesn't make 
sense. 

371
00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:18,200
But I like the gas calls to like
way too high. 

372
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,000
Yeah, they're gonna go to be a c
or something. 

373
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,900
I mean, most people I think via 
cease Lana, Avalanche, you know 

374
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:27,600
somewhere, right? 
Yeah, that's obviously bad for 

375
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:33,800
the serum defy projects. 
Yeah, also, I feel like I feel 

376
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,600
like the the D5 protocols that 
have, you know, tried to like 

377
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,600
obvious example, like having, 
you know, tried to deploy 

378
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,800
multiple chains. 
You know, there are tools like 

379
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,000
move your liquidity over but 
they haven't made it like super 

380
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,300
simple for their users to like, 
you know, move their positions 

381
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,100
on to other chains where you 
know, like these might be lower 

382
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:56,400
and and I finally kind of 
frustrating it kind of as a user

383
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,100
of of these protocols like being
able to just like a one-click 

384
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,100
movie liquidity over. 
I think that user experience 

385
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,600
aspects, like not there yet II 
do think that. 

386
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:10,000
So what I think that the multi 
chain approach of Ave and Sushi 

387
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,800
is like wrong, right? 
Because I think that like the 

388
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,700
Application specific approaches 
the right one, but we'll get 

389
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:18,100
into that later. 
But I think like with the Ave, 

390
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,300
so specifically. 
So I wonder what one thing. 

391
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:24,700
I need to understand a little 
bit better is like, how well are

392
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:27,900
these things competing on these 
other platforms? 

393
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,200
Right? 
Because I like, for example, I 

394
00:22:31,208 --> 00:22:35,500
think that like, I don't know 
how, I don't know how. 

395
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:38,300
Obviously anybody knows who she 
is, getting pretty out competed 

396
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:39,900
on the other platforms. 
Right? 

397
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,300
So if you go and Pauly, got like
so Sushi has redeployed 

398
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:45,800
themselves everywhere. 
Are but like, you know on 

399
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,100
polygon Creek swap is the 
biggest the biggest acts on 

400
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,600
Avalanche. 
Looks like Trader, Joe and like,

401
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,700
thanks. 
So I think what's happening is 

402
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:56,400
like, you know, these protocols 
that started on a theorem and 

403
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,300
then try to expand are not able 
to compete with the protocols 

404
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:04,300
that are, you know, maybe native
to the other ecosystems. 

405
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,600
Why do you think that is sunny? 
I think part of it is just like 

406
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,200
Community sentiment like or 
like, you know, the core team 

407
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,300
would rather promote the things 
that are like native to their 

408
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,500
ecosystem because they have a 
higher sense of loyalty and 

409
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:25,600
things like that. 
So I think that's a large part 

410
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,200
of it. 
And I think also the things that

411
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:29,900
are native to it, maybe started 
their first, right? 

412
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:36,800
Like, quick swap was on polygon 
first and then like, Sushi came 

413
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,800
over and stuff, right, but it's 
like by that time because 

414
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,200
because if you're expanding your
sort of like playing this like, 

415
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,700
you know, mercenary of the okay.
All right, fine, you know, the 

416
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:51,500
usage on your platform is good 
enough that I'm going to. 

417
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:55,200
It's worth it for me to start, 
like deploying there. 

418
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,800
But by that time like the the 
missionaries who really like 

419
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,800
that platform and a charge of 
building stuff earlier. 

420
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,700
They've already built up a user 
base. 

421
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,300
Yeah, I mean I think go so well 
on one thing is if you have like

422
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:15,000
an existing token, right? 
That's already distributed to 

423
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,400
like it constrains you a lot 
right versus okay, you can start

424
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,300
from scratch and in Hughes like 
the entire token Supply, you 

425
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:27,800
Tara Mae to that, try to 
incentivize the bootstrap to 

426
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,200
project on that chain, and then 
I think the other thing is also 

427
00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:37,200
If you don't have like some 
coordination, it's just it 

428
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,100
increases complexity in some 
way. 

429
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:42,000
So I think it will also tend to 
slow down this project. 

430
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,400
A little bit, make them a little
bit, less agile, and Nimble and 

431
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:50,400
maybe maybe customized through 
the particulars of that chain. 

432
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:56,900
So, if you think we'll see. 
You know, etherium defy 

433
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:01,700
applications Port over to 
Cosmos, when, when kind of 

434
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:07,400
Moses. 
Live, and well, I think, I think

435
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,900
we will see you through my 
applications poured over the 

436
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:11,100
cosmos. 
I'm not sure if it will be via 

437
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:15,400
Atmos because I don't think 
every most solves the problem, 

438
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,200
it just, you know, everyone's 
just another polygon or 

439
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:18,900
something. 
Right? 

440
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,800
It's like, you know, maybe a 
more IBC compatible polygon, but

441
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,500
at the end of the day, it shows 
us a not, you know, it's an evm 

442
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:26,700
running on tenement. 
I think what might happen if you

443
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,200
might start seeing so everyone 
has built on the software, 

444
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,700
called ether man to which is, 
you know, built a lot of it was 

445
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,700
built by the atmos team, but 
also, A lot of other teams as 

446
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:35,400
well. 
Look good. 

447
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,100
I'll calm and stuff. 
And so I think we're going to 

448
00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,200
see more through applications 
deploy, their own like, 

449
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,000
Sovereign chains with an evm, 
right? 

450
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,200
So they're going to take put an 
evm module and just have their 

451
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,100
contracts on it. 
And I think, you know, I like I 

452
00:25:52,108 --> 00:25:56,000
said, I had a bet. 
Two years ago, that within three

453
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,100
years maker will be on its own 
chain. 

454
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:00,300
So I only have a year left in my
background. 

455
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:02,900
I'm you know, now I am getting a
little bit more worried about 

456
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:04,200
that. 
I bet I was like pretty 

457
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:05,200
confident. 
All right. 

458
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,900
Well, you know, I made it back 
because we thought it was a 

459
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,100
50-50 over under, but like, it 
looks it looking like that might

460
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:12,800
not happen. 
But, you know, I think things 

461
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,000
like compound. 
Like, you know, they have for a 

462
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,500
long time, you know, they 
haven't been playing that like, 

463
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,900
multi-chain game of working 
deploy everywhere because they 

464
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,900
made this bet on compound chain.
And saying like, Hey, we're 

465
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:29,000
going to go build an application
specific chain to go and have 

466
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,700
that be the living market for 
everything. 

467
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,900
Do you think these chains will 
be IBC compatible or or the 

468
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:37,800
that's unlikely? 
Yeah, I think they will be. 

469
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:41,200
I think that like, so one, 
because I think, you know, for 

470
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,800
example, compound has been built
on substrate right now. 

471
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,800
I have it on good authority, 
that they kind of hate substrate

472
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,300
right now. 
I haven't heard anyone who has 

473
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:51,000
had a good time building on 
substrate. 

474
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:55,800
But like, I think that You know,
there is an IBC palette being 

475
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,800
built for substrate, so that so 
those with IDC, so subject 

476
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,200
change will basically become IVC
compatible. 

477
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,600
Yeah, I think, you know, cost us
just already has this like, big 

478
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,500
Network effect on application 
specific change and being able 

479
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:11,600
to interoperate. 
And so, I think we're just going

480
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,200
to see more and more of that. 
Yeah, I'm super bolus on this 

481
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,700
Vision. 
Like, I think that I think that 

482
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:26,400
it's kind of interesting to see 
if your IAM starting any Theory 

483
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,400
and I like I sort of and, you 
know, evm application start 

484
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,500
going down this route. 
And like, when I hurt, you know,

485
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,400
when when when I heard about 
like, gnosis kind of merging off

486
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,000
into his own emerging with, with
exercise and it becomes its own 

487
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000
chain, if I like, it makes so 
much sense. 

488
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,500
And I mean like it's basically 
the cosmos Vision playing out on

489
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:48,400
aetherium only like without the 
bridging technology yet. 

490
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,800
But I would be so happy to see, 
you know, evm chains. 

491
00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:00,600
Well, like first of all IQ, 
theorem really adopting this eat

492
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,200
this. 
This this sort of interchain 

493
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,900
vision and it's like 
application-specific blockchain 

494
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:09,000
Vision, but also integrating 
IBC. 

495
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,800
So that just everything works 
together. 

496
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,500
Sorry. 
I have to clean up. 

497
00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:14,600
I think it's my misunderstanding
here. 

498
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:19,600
So basically gnosis chain is not
going to be a Application 

499
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,300
specific chain, it's going to be
very general evm base chain, 

500
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:29,000
that kind of that basically is 
any theorem Forerunner in terms 

501
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:36,900
of implementing eips and does it
very best to to scale in such a 

502
00:28:36,908 --> 00:28:41,500
manner as to retain reasonably 
cheap gas prices, which I think 

503
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:45,600
is currently. 
So I mean, obviously there's 

504
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,400
pros and cons for the EVAP, 
right? 

505
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,900
So basically if you were To sit 
down at the drawing board again.

506
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:56,200
What would you modify? 
The evm. 

507
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,900
Almost certainly, but I mean, 
there's such a huge Network 

508
00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:06,800
effect around EVMS that 
basically the bet we hired noses

509
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,200
chain. 
Is that EVMS are going to be 

510
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,400
there. 
And there are they are gonna 

511
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,900
stay kind of like, I mean 
various Internet Protocol is 

512
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,800
actually pretty. 
Eddie bad standards, but once 

513
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,200
they hit a certain level of 
adoption, you can't get rid of 

514
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,800
them anymore. 
You can't change the email 

515
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,900
standard or something. 
It's like I mean, yeah, maybe 

516
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:31,800
It's Tricky but it's there. 
And so basically. 

517
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,600
Yeah, I mean that's kind of the 
bad behind gnosis chain. 

518
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:38,300
That seems like give to be 
honest. 

519
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:39,800
He's kind of like a strange bed 
to me. 

520
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,100
Right? 
Because if you look at it today,

521
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:44,400
right? 
You have I don't know what some 

522
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,300
tens of millions of crypto 
users. 

523
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:47,700
Right? 
And we're so much at the 

524
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:51,800
beginning and if you say like, 
oh actually deviance bad, but 

525
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,800
like I mean, I don't believe 
she's never takes exist the same

526
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,400
way. 
Right? 

527
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,500
That you have. 
It's like whatever TCP IP or 

528
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,600
like. 
Yeah, I mean they they kind of 

529
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,900
do, don't they? 
Yeah, you know, I see both sides

530
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:08,300
of this a lot because like, you 
know what? 

531
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,400
So I will I will, I have this 
like tweets and he and my drafts

532
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,400
that I, which is like, but it 
goes something like, cause like 

533
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,000
the early Cosmos came, like 
Cosmos was right about 

534
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,700
everything except evm 
skepticism. 

535
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,600
I think that like, the early 
cause of seemed like, we had 

536
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,300
this entire vision of like 
multi-chain things, everything 

537
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:31,000
interconnecting. 
I think the one mistake we made 

538
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,300
was that we were way too, evm, 
skeptical. 

539
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,800
And we thought, Tweets been in 
your draft since last year 

540
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,500
because I think you mentioned 
the same thing online, really? 

541
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:38,700
Well. 
Okay. 

542
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:40,600
Well, yeah, it's been sitting 
there. 

543
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,200
Yeah, but I think like, you 
know, I think, you know, I did 

544
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,900
not expect that like the multi 
chain would play out in such, 

545
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:52,000
just a bunch of generalized UVM,
change that are talking to each 

546
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,100
other, right? 
I think that's. 

547
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,200
And that is kind of mostly what 
we have right now, right? 

548
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,400
Like Avalanche, Phantom polygon.
All of these are just evm change

549
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,000
and I'm still not sure that this
is like their Because I do, I 

550
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,000
still do think that like the evm
is the bottleneck on 

551
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,200
scalability, right? 
And like, I think so Lana has 

552
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,000
showed that we're like, you just
if you want achieve any sort of 

553
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,700
real scalability, you just have 
to throw out the evm because 

554
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,200
that like you like Avalanche, 
you know, they say they want, 

555
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,500
they do all these like cool 
things that the consensus 

556
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,300
protocol there, but end of the 
day, none of it matters because 

557
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,900
the evm is the bottleneck, but I
mean, what he could do is I mean

558
00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:33,900
you could reduce like the 
database or the state sighs. 

559
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:37,800
Bye. 
Taking a snapshot every year or 

560
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,400
something. 
I mean that's way is to actually

561
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,500
combat this and make it workable
right? 

562
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,900
Or you just build like a 
compiler from solidity to like 

563
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,400
llvm and like, you know, let 
people write their contract and 

564
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,900
solidity and you know running on
other state machines. 

565
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,200
You know, I guess it was another
sort of thing to talk about 

566
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,800
would be like I think so this 
kind of double head because this

567
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,500
is what I want. 
One of the things I wrote as 

568
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:03,700
like a prediction for the future
of. 

569
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:07,300
I think it's mix in where I do 
think that 2022 will be like the

570
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:11,000
year wrap change. 
Where like, I think that Tara 

571
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,500
has like set the precedent for 
this, right. 

572
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:18,000
Tara Tara was like the execution
of the cause of the cosmos 

573
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,700
division where what they did was
they start, they started with 

574
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:24,300
this like application-specific 
blockchain, which is a stable 

575
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:26,900
coin. 
And then they have like sort of 

576
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,700
built like a tiny ecosystem 
around me where they're like, 

577
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:33,500
okay, we have this like app this
application and then they're 

578
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:35,300
like, okay, we want to like 
Drive usage with its 

579
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:37,100
application. 
Let's start building more sub, 

580
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:40,200
protocols on top of it, and they
built up a little ecosystem on 

581
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,600
top of it. 
And then, you know, I think 

582
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,900
what's going to start to happen 
now with terrorism, going to see

583
00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:48,000
applications on Tara, start to 
break off onto their own chains 

584
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200
because, you know, I'm already 
talking to Applications that are

585
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,600
sort of in the Pro, you know, 
thinking about this right now. 

586
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,200
And I think that like, people 
and I think there's like, you 

587
00:32:58,208 --> 00:33:01,500
know, projects like the door 
chain and osmosis and stuff have

588
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:03,100
been like following in that 
vein. 

589
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:05,500
And I think we're I think we're 
going to start to see more and 

590
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,800
more applications start to do 
that being like, hey, you know, 

591
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,100
I why aren't we also taking this
like more application, specific 

592
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:15,000
route and I think 2022, we're 
just going to see a huge 

593
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,000
explosion of these. 
Yeah, I mean, I think that's 

594
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,300
another. 
Another thing. 

595
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:26,200
That was a big thing in in this 
year. 

596
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:33,000
I was, I think I BC launching 
and then it's act, every 

597
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,700
division, development forever. 
And then it's pretty. 

598
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:39,600
I think the amazing thing is 
been like, you know, just I 

599
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,000
don't know. 
It got to like 1 million 

600
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,700
transaction, ID transaction 
saying like, you know, very 

601
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,700
quickly, I don't know less than 
two months or something and then

602
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:51,200
Are they feeling that? 
Maybe surprised me the most, and

603
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,700
I think a big credit to like, 
sunny and osmosis teams, and 

604
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,600
that was just the user 
experience. 

605
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,000
I've always liked shockingly, 
good because I was all like, 

606
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,400
worry, it won't wondering, is 
that going to be okay, but I 

607
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,300
think that's actually. 
Yeah, it's good. 

608
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:16,300
So I think that's, that's 
clearly playing out well, and I 

609
00:34:16,308 --> 00:34:19,199
think that's just gonna Grow a 
lot. 

610
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,900
And of course, you can have all 
the chair other types of Rich 

611
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,300
technologies that will also have
great user experience. 

612
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:26,699
I think the ancient did anything
to you. 

613
00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:28,600
Same thing. 
It's interesting also. 

614
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,699
Yeah, they think about bridges 
and sort of CDs like two ways. 

615
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,000
I think it is is breaking out, 
right? 

616
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,800
I think there's like one thing, 
which is a bridge where you have

617
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,199
like some trust, you said two 
parties. 

618
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:46,600
And I think that maybe the two 
leading contenders there seemed 

619
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,900
to be like Wormhole and axel 
are. 

620
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,800
And that's pretty nice because 
they conveyed, the trustee 

621
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,800
parties can basically run like a
full node on like whatever chain

622
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:02,200
and they can make the footprint 
on the Chain, very easy, and it 

623
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,200
could make a great user 
experience and you can support 

624
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,600
like all kinds of chains and 
then but of course, the downside

625
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,000
is, these operators have to then
decide. 

626
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,500
Okay. 
We are going to run the full 

627
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:17,100
node on this chain, and, of 
course, the nice ring, right? 

628
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,500
You see that? 
Again, pretty amazing. 

629
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:20,900
It's just a permissionless 
nature. 

630
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:23,100
Right? 
Like you can just spin up 

631
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:26,900
connected chains. 
And and and and so I think 

632
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:30,900
that's that's having both of 
those technologies have a huge 

633
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:34,300
future. 
And then yeah, I think both of 

634
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:41,200
those have come a very long way.
This year may be trusted bridges

635
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,500
are like a little bit behind but
not much right? 

636
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:49,100
I think that it's also very soon
that I think they'll have You 

637
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:55,700
know, be basically like, very 
usable for like normal users. 

638
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,100
I want to ask you guys about 
like so IBC and Wormhole Bridges

639
00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:02,600
like type acknowledge. 
What, what do you what are the 

640
00:36:02,607 --> 00:36:07,600
cost structure is look like here
and where are like, is IB? 

641
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Am I right to assume here? 
Like, IBC is cheaper for for 

642
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,300
users? 
Then like the Wormhole kind of 

643
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:16,100
model. 
So what I would say here is how 

644
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:17,600
what I see the difference here 
is. 

645
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,100
IBC is much much higher 
integration costs. 

646
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:26,300
Where could I be see? 
Is this like, very trustless 

647
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:29,700
like client protocol and then 
you have these trusted Bridges, 

648
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:33,500
where you basically have people 
run note to get IBC integration.

649
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,600
You actually have to build 
something into the Block Chain 

650
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:43,100
itself and getting that IBC 
protocol into more Frameworks is

651
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:45,200
challenging, right? 
So, you know, we're working, you

652
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,800
know, the console's teams are 
working on like, you know, 

653
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,300
getting Needed to substrate. 
And you know, I know course, one

654
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,400
is working on getting into cell 
0 and this, you know, it's a 

655
00:36:53,408 --> 00:36:57,100
work in progress with something 
like Wormhole. 

656
00:36:57,100 --> 00:36:58,700
It's very easy. 
You just have to ask your 

657
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:01,200
validate. 
Mr. Set up to run nodes for the 

658
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,100
counterparty blockchain. 
And you know, there's no, 

659
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:04,200
there's no development work to 
be done. 

660
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,200
You know, she'll have to 
integrate multi saying after 

661
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,000
like, you know, there's work to 
be done, but it's not as much, 

662
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,500
but I think the key word there 
is, you have to ask your 

663
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:13,800
validators. 
I think that the difference will

664
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,000
come down to So something like 
Wormhole is really useful for 

665
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:22,500
connecting what I call Trust 
famous blockchains. 

666
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,800
It's like, you know, it's great 
for connecting things in the top

667
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,100
hundred to other top hundred 
chains, right? 

668
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:32,100
Where you have to have this. 
Like, you know, you have to get 

669
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:35,500
people to agree to make that 
connection and run nodes and 

670
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:40,200
houses like higher cost. 
The beauty of IBC is given how 

671
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,200
permissionless it is. 
Where literally to make a 

672
00:37:42,207 --> 00:37:46,000
connection between two chains. 
You just make a Action on each 

673
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,200
chain and you have a connection 
going, right? 

674
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,900
And I think what happened that. 
I think that's how you move from

675
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,700
the world of hundreds of 
blockchains to thousands and 

676
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:57,500
tens of thousands, right? 
There's like chains. 

677
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,300
I have never heard of that are 
like, enabling IBC on Cosmos 

678
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:05,900
right now and connecting to 
osmosis and like don't even have

679
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:07,400
to talk to us about it right 
there. 

680
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,600
Just like going ahead and doing 
it and I think that's like the 

681
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,300
permission. 
Listen. 

682
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:13,400
This is what's going to be like,
very different. 

683
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:19,300
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also 
if you think of like, okay, what

684
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:22,400
would these fridges? 
Well, I sort of did apology of 

685
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,600
these fridges. 
So I think if you look at 

686
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000
something like Axl are right, 
we'll ask her is a cosmesis 

687
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,200
Decay chain and I think yeah, I 
think we're almost going similar

688
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,400
Direction. 
I says cosmesis Decay chain, and

689
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,700
then you have basically any bre 
any calls most share any IBC 

690
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,400
chain can just like connect to 
that, right? 

691
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,600
And you don't have to ask 
anybody. 

692
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,800
You can just use the IBC and 
then acts like an basically have

693
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,800
their protocol the connect to 
all these other chains, right? 

694
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,800
So I think it makes sense to 
have like, you know Cosmos Pages

695
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,700
via IV. 
C connect to like, you know, the

696
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:03,800
bridge chain that then connects 
to like all these like non-ai 

697
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,500
you see ridges. 
And so you kind of see both 

698
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:12,100
their IQ can see the the 
advantage of both both 

699
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:15,100
approaches and then you can just
combine them by having Saying. 

700
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,000
Yeah, basically, like a chain 
that's run by a bunch of 

701
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,700
alligators that you're 
connecting to. 

702
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:22,900
All these doesn't change, that 
then connects to all the others 

703
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:29,200
like IBC. so I think one of the 
other topics we want to touch on

704
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,300
and you probably get to the to 
the the prediction soon because 

705
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,200
we're already at like 40 minutes
here, but really interesting is 

706
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:46,600
like the proliferation of Dow's 
doubt rulings and the Emergence 

707
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,100
of new organizational Paradigm 
Zach, I think like one of the 

708
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:55,400
areas where we've seen lots of 
dows come up this year is around

709
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,200
in a fees. 
So that I've been like lots of 

710
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,600
entity projects that I've 
created douse with varying, a 

711
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,200
say like like very utility. 
But what are some of the other 

712
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:11,100
kind of Dow projects that you 
guys have seen perhaps like 

713
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:16,200
outside of a set of n of T so I 
can defy or like, Community 

714
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,600
governance. 
I mean, I think what we saw was 

715
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:27,800
like the We've started taking 
Telegram and Discord groups and 

716
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,700
calling them Dallas, which I 
think is kind of funny, but like

717
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:35,900
kind of not wrong either, right?
We're like, you know, we I think

718
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,600
So what one of my, my friends, 
they built this project called 

719
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,100
Commonwealth, which is this like
governance forum for like and 

720
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:51,300
for they pitched this idea to me
called token curated communities

721
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,600
where like you launch a token 
and it builds Community around 

722
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,600
it and the community figures out
the use case and I was all I was

723
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,400
actually a little bit skeptical 
when they pitch it to me, but 

724
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,600
it's like interesting that like 
what they did. 

725
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:07,700
So if anyone's familiar with 
like the ion token ions are Like

726
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:12,600
secondary token in osmosis that,
like it started as like just two

727
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,500
days before launch were like, 
hey, let's just add in a token 

728
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:19,100
and airdrop it to a bunch of 
people and don't tell them why, 

729
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,900
or what it's for or why they got
it or anything, and let's just 

730
00:41:22,908 --> 00:41:26,700
see what happens and like it, 
drew this like, really big 

731
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:30,500
organic Community around it. 
And this like Community is like,

732
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,900
doing all sorts of like, you 
know, like, you know, they're 

733
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:36,800
they're building stuff and, 
like, designing protocols, and 

734
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,600
all this kind of Of cool stuff 
and it's like funny enough. 

735
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,800
I think the most powerful doubt 
tool that's been created so far 

736
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,400
as Telegram. 
Brian, what's going on with like

737
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,300
free time? 
Because I was just thinking 

738
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:52,000
about it the other day because 
I'm like man, imagine telegram 

739
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,000
figured out a way of monetizing 
like all the value that's being 

740
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,500
built off of there like platform
and like it's kind of sad that 

741
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:03,500
it kind of just like failed in 
such a spectacular way. 

742
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:05,100
Is there anything still going on
with that? 

743
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,700
Yeah, I mean, yeah, so probably 
most people don't know the 

744
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:15,400
history here, but like, I can 
spend like few minutes on it. 

745
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,300
But basically, I telegram was, 
was wanted to launch a 

746
00:42:19,308 --> 00:42:23,600
blockchain and they did this 
huge token tail is like race 

747
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,000
like 2 billion or something like
that and then the ACC and they 

748
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,000
had done a lot of development 
work. 

749
00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:33,200
And then the ACC basically like 
last-minute was like, you can't 

750
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,900
launch this thing and then 
Telegram, Kind of like we paid 

751
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:41,100
stare investors, but the code 
was kind of there and there was 

752
00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:44,700
some other company that was also
like working on this thing. 

753
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:47,100
And so then the other were like,
oh, let's go and launch this 

754
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:50,300
thing anyway. 
And put most of the tokens in 

755
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:53,600
the community pool, right? 
So and then we of course also we

756
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,600
were like one of the validators 
that kind of like, you know, 

757
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,300
helped launch this thing and 
it's still running. 

758
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:01,100
They actually rebranding to ever
scale now though because 

759
00:43:01,100 --> 00:43:06,700
apparently like the whole tall 
and thing has been like You 

760
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:09,300
know, a bit of a. 
So, it's still running. 

761
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:12,600
I think this is, it seems to be 
like a pretty active Community. 

762
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:18,700
I sort of, you know, there's not
too much intersection. 

763
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:20,700
Like, you don't really hear 
about it much because I think 

764
00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:23,900
it's like its own community. 
So let's see where it goes. 

765
00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:25,900
But it's pretty active. 
Of course. 

766
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:28,300
It's totally decoupled from 
telegram this point, right? 

767
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:33,300
It's just, it's basically just 
another like layer once more 

768
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:39,200
contract blockchain now, Of 
course, maybe at some point, you

769
00:43:39,207 --> 00:43:42,300
know, telegram like integrate 
that or maybe something else. 

770
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:46,900
Who knows? 
I think in the end it seems Very

771
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:52,500
likely to me that telegram will 
probably right turn the telegram

772
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:55,200
app into some kind of crypto 
wallet. 

773
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:02,700
I guess it seems like probably 
not launched her own blockchain 

774
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:08,400
at this point, but But I guess 
that's another thing that's 

775
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:09,400
starting to happen. 
Right? 

776
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,900
Is that you have just two more 
more crypto features being added

777
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:17,700
to like mainstream consumer 
apps. 

778
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:22,800
And I think if you see the, if 
you see the kind of monetization

779
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,100
and business models and economic
effects, like crypto, then I'm 

780
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:29,800
sure this is some also something
that's going to continue in a 

781
00:44:29,808 --> 00:44:33,400
big way. 
I mean, I think even just this 

782
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,100
year we did see it added to a 
lot of like traditional payments

783
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:37,800
apps and stuff. 
But like, I think we're gonna 

784
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,000
see crypto and more. 
You know, I'm hoping that we 

785
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,500
will see more like proliferation
of existing crypto, you know, I 

786
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:44,900
don't know. 
There's a lot of controversy 

787
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:48,500
this year around, like, signal 
and how they added mobile coin. 

788
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:51,800
And everyone is like, what is 
this thing? 

789
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,900
And like, you know, it's go out 
of Bitcoin wallet or something 

790
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:55,600
like that. 
Right? 

791
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,000
So I went, I wonder how that's 
gonna play out. 

792
00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:01,000
I remember there was a couple 
days ago where the Discord, you 

793
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,400
know, I don't know the CEO of 
Discord was like, oh, we're 

794
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,300
experimenting with some crypto 
stuff and then they got this 

795
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:10,900
like massive backlash from like 
their Community, which is 

796
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,400
obviously a lot of Gamers and 
it's funny Yankee. 

797
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:17,700
So basically that was also what 
what amazed me, how big the 

798
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:21,300
backlash. 
From the Discord Community, who 

799
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:25,400
for me would have been people 
who are so familiar with in-app 

800
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,700
purchases and so on, still was 
why do you think that was funny?

801
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,700
They're still mad at us for 
stealing all their gpus, but I 

802
00:45:33,707 --> 00:45:36,200
would generally think that's 
like you said, that's it. 

803
00:45:37,100 --> 00:45:38,500
Yeah. 
Okay. 

804
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:40,900
I think that the Gaming 
Community is still pissed about 

805
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:44,000
the gpus. 
Has anyone talked to them about 

806
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:50,000
proof proof of stake. 
Maybe probably, I don't know, 

807
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,600
maybe probably not to be honest.
I mean, I don't know how well 

808
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,400
they understand it. 
But, you know, we could tell 

809
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,400
them all we want about proof of 
space-time Sonny. 

810
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,000
You you sort that out you go 
sneak to The Gamers. 

811
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,500
We created a cohort. 
I think it should be. 

812
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:11,000
You is I mean, what's this doing
here? 

813
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,100
I'm not a gamer at all. 
But yeah, I mean, I don't know. 

814
00:46:16,100 --> 00:46:19,100
I mean well, even if we did tell
them, Every day they understand 

815
00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:20,600
purpose take. 
But we told them that, are we 

816
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,200
coming in? 
Like what 2017? 

817
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,200
And here, we are like four years
later and like we're still 

818
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,600
sucking up their gpus, right, 
you know, I wonder even once 

819
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:30,100
theorems which is away from her 
steak. 

820
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:31,800
I don't know if that's when I 
get solved right. 

821
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,900
Because you know, some other GPU
coin is going to pop up and 

822
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:39,200
still going to be the stock of 
like GPU compute. 

823
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,400
So I'm not sure that's really 
going to be a solved problem. 

824
00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:47,200
I think basically the I mean 
that the demand is going to go 

825
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,400
down though, right? 
I mean, so basically, I think, I

826
00:46:49,408 --> 00:46:57,900
mean if like large market cap 
chains shy away from from 

827
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:00,000
proof-of-work. 
It's bound to happen. 

828
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,800
Oh, I don't know if we're going 
to get to a world where I think 

829
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,200
that the I mean no matter what, 
the opportunity cost of using 

830
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,800
GPS or gaming vs. 
Mining is always going to lean 

831
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,700
towards the mining. 
And so the costs are so it's 

832
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:19,900
going to go up for gpus. 
I have a thesis that kind of 

833
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:23,100
brings together the last two 
points we talked about so I 

834
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:30,400
think a good Shane fordow 
tooling and is going to make a 

835
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,100
huge. 
It's going to be a huge asset in

836
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:37,600
the layer 1, horse, between 
between different chains. 

837
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:42,600
So, I think the chain that kind 
of draws other communities 

838
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,400
around hours. 
It's just it'll be difficult to 

839
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,500
beat. 
You know what another thing to 

840
00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:54,100
discuss about the, you know, 
kind of semi related to the ESG 

841
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:59,300
stuff like, you know, kind of 
stuff is, you know, or talk 

842
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:03,200
about like that Ilan stuff and 
like the return of Dogecoin and,

843
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,600
you know, so I think for me, I 
think that was actually one of 

844
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,600
the biggest things that happened
this year is, like, sort of 

845
00:48:08,607 --> 00:48:10,800
this, like, return of meme 
coins, right? 

846
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,700
Where it started at the 
beginning of the year, with the 

847
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:17,900
gme stuff that happened in, 
like, you know, don't boast like

848
00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:20,500
Wall Street bats and all that 
kind of stuff and I No, I wonder

849
00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:23,900
how much of it which direction 
this like cultural thing came 

850
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:25,600
from. 
Like was it a lot of like, you 

851
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,700
know, it felt very like this 
moment. 

852
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:32,900
We're like, oh crypto culture is
like or like Vibes are like 

853
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,100
proliferating into like the 
normal market and but I wonder 

854
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:38,300
if at the same time it was also 
like heavily influence in the 

855
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:42,300
other direction as well. 
Yeah. 

856
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,600
I know if anyone has any 
thoughts on like, you know, 

857
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,300
this, how much like, you know, 
just the meme culinary that's 

858
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:52,700
been happening. 
And like Sheba entering the top 

859
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:54,700
10 by market cap and things like
that. 

860
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,200
Yeah, I did not see that coming.
So basically I thought you know 

861
00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:03,500
II didn't even get to, I mean I 
kind of semi get Dogecoin but 

862
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:07,100
basically. 
Yeah, I mean cheaper, I just 

863
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,800
don't get it. 
I mean, yeah, I yeah, maybe I'm 

864
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,200
too much on the boom, aside 
here. 

865
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,400
Yeah, and I mean, in the end 
it's like a lot of non crypto 

866
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,400
people who are getting burned by
those things. 

867
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:25,700
I mean, all right, so I have two
interesting, sock, Tom Dogecoin,

868
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:29,500
right? 
One, is I, when I left tender 

869
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:34,800
moment, like last summer and I 
was freaking out, what do I want

870
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,700
to spend my time doing this once
before I start working on our 

871
00:49:37,707 --> 00:49:40,800
smokes as one of the things. 
I spent like a couple days 

872
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,400
actually like researching and 
looking into was hey, I want to 

873
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,600
bring do Coin onto proof of 
stake because I have this like 

874
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,300
whole idea of that like, you 
know, okay, we're going to show 

875
00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:52,800
Dogecoin moving to proof of 
stake. 

876
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,200
And this is going to be like set
the groundwork to move Bitcoin 

877
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,600
on to proof of stake and like 20
30 years from now. 

878
00:49:58,700 --> 00:50:00,900
And so and I you know, I don't 
know. 

879
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:04,300
I just feel really like Dogecoin
Dogecoin was actually my first 

880
00:50:04,300 --> 00:50:08,500
like exposure to crypto and it 
was like it has like the special

881
00:50:08,500 --> 00:50:11,300
place in my heart and I guess 
but then when I looked into it 

882
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:13,800
last summer, you know, I spent 
time like researching the 

883
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,800
community and going through 
their Reddit and stuff. 

884
00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:17,800
So and I came out with 
conclusion. 

885
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:21,200
Oh, no, one Dogecoin is dead. 
Like no one seems to care. 

886
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,200
But Dogecoin I'm just this, 
like, weird. 

887
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:24,800
Oh, that's still seems to care 
about it. 

888
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,100
But like otherwise, there's like
a dead project and then like you

889
00:50:28,100 --> 00:50:30,900
fast-forward, like six months 
and it's like, holy shit. 

890
00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:34,300
I was very wrong obviously, 
right? 

891
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:36,300
And so, I think that's like a 
very funny. 

892
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:41,800
You'd be a dose billionaire by. 
Now you have, maybe, I still 

893
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,400
think there's a good chance that
we can get those going on to 

894
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,600
pursue state, right? 
I think that you Stuff actually 

895
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,800
helped. 
We're like, you know because of 

896
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,200
this whole like energy usage 
stuff with Bitcoin if we can get

897
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,800
Dogecoin on to proof of stake 
and get like a tweet from Elan 

898
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,300
like supporting this. 
I think don't want to move on to

899
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:04,500
prove steak and I think this 
will be like actually hit. 

900
00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:07,700
Here's the other thing, right? 
I actually I am very bullish 

901
00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:11,100
Dogecoin and I just like, I 
think it's the second most 

902
00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:15,800
important crypto because the 
thing is I can go out. 

903
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:19,300
Out on the street today and ask 
someone if they know what 

904
00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:22,800
Bitcoin is and they will write 
they've heard of Bitcoin but I 

905
00:51:22,808 --> 00:51:24,900
can ask her if they know what 
the theorem is. 

906
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:26,700
That they actually probably 
don't know what it is. 

907
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,300
They don't like, you know, but 
like you can ask them if they've

908
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:33,100
heard of Dogecoin and they have 
heard what it is and I do think 

909
00:51:33,100 --> 00:51:35,500
that those who and is 
legitimately the thing with the 

910
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:41,300
second highest like cultural 
permeance and like I think that 

911
00:51:41,300 --> 00:51:43,500
is very important. 
I've okay. 

912
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:46,900
I think this year crypt the 
number of People involved with 

913
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:50,600
crypto has expanded massively 
and I generally think it's from 

914
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,900
two things which is 1 is to n 
FPS and the other is Dogecoin. 

915
00:51:55,300 --> 00:52:00,300
So when hyper dojin is ation 
once well, you know, we got we 

916
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:02,200
got we got to find some people 
to switch it onto proof of 

917
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:03,600
stake. 
I think this will, I think this 

918
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:08,000
is like a 11 year project and we
know if anyone is anyone. 

919
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,000
Listening is interested in 
taking this on like please reach

920
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,600
out to me. 
We will fund you to do this like

921
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:19,800
we have funding for this funding
secured an allocation of the 

922
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,900
osmosis community pool. 
That is and as was put aside for

923
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,800
Yes, there's a there's there's 
going to be a hundred fifty 

924
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,900
million dollars in the offices 
community pool by the end of the

925
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:31,900
week. 
And we will make sure there is a

926
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,300
solid allocation for anyone who 
wants to help move Dogecoin on 

927
00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:41,000
to prefer steak. 
Yeah, I mean I think that in a 

928
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:47,100
way is that those going thing? 
I go KY and I think the GameStop

929
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,400
analogy may like makes perfect 
sense, right? 

930
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,200
Because basically it's sort of 
like the power of the crowd. 

931
00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:58,100
I could people can be like, oh, 
let's just rally around this 

932
00:52:58,100 --> 00:53:00,500
thing. 
All like, you know, pop it up 

933
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:06,200
together and it's kind of fun 
and it can have an impact and it

934
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,200
can, you know, Pumping make 
money and then maybe crash but 

935
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:15,000
who knows. 
And I think that's Yeah, that's 

936
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,400
just a very powerful thing. 
Right? 

937
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,800
Like, I think we see again. 
And again, like this means and 

938
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,300
ideas are just very, very 
crucial. 

939
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:27,800
But you need, you need a common 
enemy. 

940
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,700
Right? 
So, I mean basically the entire 

941
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:34,100
Apes together, strong thing. 
This only works if you ready, 

942
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:38,100
can someone like, I mean the 
hedge funds or, you know, the 

943
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:40,800
people who say, oh, why are you 
poor? 

944
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,500
You're eating too much avocado 
toast. 

945
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:45,500
Just invest in stock and then 
you You do it and they go like 

946
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:49,100
no, not that way. 
So yeah, I mean it's like I mean

947
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:55,000
you kind of you need this, you 
need this image of what you're 

948
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,300
going up against, right? 
So question is that is that is 

949
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:01,700
the CEO of Citadel. 
The what like is he like a 

950
00:54:01,707 --> 00:54:05,000
literal Bond villain? 
Because like, you know, he must 

951
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,600
have heard of constitution. 
Now, trying to, by the 

952
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,700
Constitution and this like whole
Community organizing and I feel 

953
00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:13,100
like he like specifically 
wedding is like no, fuck this. 

954
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:16,300
I'm gonna like go. 
Ghost rug this like Constitution

955
00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:18,600
from like this like Community 
organized effort. 

956
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,600
Yeah, that is actually 
Constitution. 

957
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,000
Does I mean, in a way it makes 
sense to write because he's 

958
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,400
like, you know, I'm a 
front-runner. 

959
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:33,600
Yeah, right. 
It's like, well, this thing I 

960
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,600
can forward this pretty obvious.
Right? 

961
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,300
So in a way it's like, you know,
hanging a fish in front of his 

962
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:42,600
mouth whenever they like, yes, 
eat the fish. 

963
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:46,300
But actually the Constitution 
guy was like another weird thing

964
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:49,900
to me like crazy thing because I
was like This is a good idea. 

965
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:54,600
I would like support this, and 
I'm so I put some ether into it.

966
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,900
And I honestly thought of it as 
like, oh, it's just like, it's 

967
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:04,300
like a donation, right? 
And then, and then the thing 

968
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:08,600
failed. 
And the people said, oh, we're 

969
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,700
going to shut it down. 
Bob there is a token and is 

970
00:55:12,700 --> 00:55:15,900
hoping and so I ended up you 
know, like then selling these 

971
00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:21,500
people token and it was 
something like 20 times up in 

972
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:25,300
these terms right? 
In within like two weeks for a 

973
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:28,800
project that basically seems to 
fail. 

974
00:55:29,900 --> 00:55:34,200
That's that's also such a 
bizarre thing. 

975
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:37,900
And and the most amazing thing 
would be okay. 

976
00:55:37,900 --> 00:55:42,800
Like Now what if these people 
actually turn it into something 

977
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:44,600
because that's the real thing 
right? 

978
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,300
Like okay, they lost the 
auction. 

979
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:52,000
But actually this in a way that 
whatever 40 million that was 

980
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,900
like, put into that thing was at
some point. 

981
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:58,500
Then, you know, market cap of, I
don't know. 

982
00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:01,100
It was like a billion or 
something or definitely like 

983
00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:09,200
more than 10 times up from So 
yeah, these are clear but I 

984
00:56:09,207 --> 00:56:12,500
think goes to show the power of 
these, these memes. 

985
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:17,500
I like how in the mainstream 
press basically, the way that 

986
00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:22,000
the constitution doll was 
described was frequently as a 

987
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,600
group of internet friends, which
I think it's funny and it's 

988
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,900
totally not wrong, but it's so 
funny. 

989
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,600
So wholesome. 
So, to bring it back to, you 

990
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,100
know, just bring it back to the 
Dogecoin thing. 

991
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:37,200
One more last five years is. 
This one thing I wanted to 

992
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,200
mention as well, as you know, I 
think like every epicenter 

993
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,200
episode every end of your 
episode. 

994
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,600
I've always liked brought up 
this idea like sort of this bet 

995
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,700
with Brian that like a Litecoin 
is going to remain in the top 

996
00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:50,500
10. 
And I think this year is fine. 

997
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:53,900
I've been winning that that for 
the last three years, but I 

998
00:56:53,908 --> 00:56:57,200
think this year I finally lost 
that but I will say it is 

999
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,000
because of the Black Swan of do 
toys flipping like going. 

1000
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,100
I did not expect right? 
Because II my whole life pieces.

1001
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:08,500
Unlike coin was this like 
mimetic of like, hey, it is 

1002
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,900
number two after Bitcoin. 
And that is a funny meme and 

1003
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:14,800
that will keep it going. 
But once Dogecoin had flipped 

1004
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,500
like coin, I think that like 
meme stops working and I think 

1005
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:22,800
don't want has basically taken 
that, like, cultural place of 

1006
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:29,800
that Litecoin did even Sheba 
flipped Litecoin now, So I guess

1007
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,200
the last thing that we had on 
her like, on our like 

1008
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,700
interesting things for this year
was Bitcoin and El Salvador. 

1009
00:57:36,700 --> 00:57:39,300
So what are your guys thoughts 
on this? 

1010
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:42,300
Is it is it, is it a big deal or
not? 

1011
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,900
I think it's a big deal. 
I think in the end if you if you

1012
00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:52,200
look at the crypto thing, right?
Like what what are the potential

1013
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,800
response is? 
I think one big response is 

1014
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:01,100
going to be like this thing is 
threatening, you know or power 

1015
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,800
it's threatening, you know our 
control. 

1016
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,000
So we are going to like, I don't
know, try to ban it. 

1017
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,900
I don't know like in China or 
maybe. 

1018
00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:16,900
Restricted in some like very, 
very narrow control wave seems 

1019
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:21,300
to be like India now, right? 
Or like in some other ways try 

1020
00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:25,300
to control it. 
But there's obviously that 

1021
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:28,600
obviously means with the ability
to just like move somewhere else

1022
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,400
and all of this being basically 
open accessible anywhere. 

1023
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:36,000
Anyway, it means like actually 
the more some countries do that.

1024
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,800
The more there is to win by 
other countries, going the other

1025
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,000
way. 
And and then you also Half the 

1026
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,000
thing and then you get supplies,
you know, if you look at crypto,

1027
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,200
right? 
If you look at Bitcoin, you 

1028
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,800
always have to affect that. 
Like if you know, this thing's 

1029
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,300
going to happen. 
It has a good chance of 

1030
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:55,600
happening. 
If you go first, you have the 

1031
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,600
most to gain. 
And I think the same thing is 

1032
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,200
true of countries, right? 
So I think countries that, like,

1033
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:04,800
deviate from this control crypto
path and countries, that go 

1034
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,900
early, you know, have a huge 
amount of gain and then I think 

1035
00:59:07,900 --> 00:59:12,100
that El Salvador thing of 
basically now, Yeah, supporting 

1036
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:16,200
the coin issuing bonds to buy 
Bitcoin and stuff like it. 

1037
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,600
I think it is huge and I think 
it will end up being a huge 

1038
00:59:19,700 --> 00:59:21,900
amazing decision for them. 
I think you had like an 

1039
00:59:21,900 --> 00:59:24,000
interesting thing you mentioned 
earlier where it's like the 

1040
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,600
microstrategy like play applied 
to a country. 

1041
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:34,000
Yeah, totally. 
I mean, the opportunity cost for

1042
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,000
a country like El Salvador was 
also a lot lower than of 

1043
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:42,800
countries that actually have a 
financial Market policy for 

1044
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,200
their for their currency. 
Right? 

1045
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,900
So basically if you're for 
instance, the US you have a lot 

1046
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:51,700
a lot more to lose than the 
country that de facto uses a 

1047
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:57,000
foreign hand, foreign currency 
as its as its currency anyway. 

1048
00:59:58,300 --> 00:59:59,900
Totally. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1049
00:59:59,900 --> 01:00:02,300
Like who's going to do that? 
Yeah, make countries that don't 

1050
01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:04,400
have their own currency. 
I think it's like small 

1051
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,000
countries. 
Poor countries. 

1052
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:12,200
It's not and it's not going to 
be, you know, the US and Germany

1053
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,100
and China and India, you know, 
it's huge countries that have. 

1054
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:19,500
Yeah, and the end of course, 
let's see. 

1055
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,800
Okay, I would say, like, you 
know, for me, it was like, I 

1056
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,600
know a lot of people were like, 
oh, yeah, it's just like, you 

1057
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,900
know, it's out Salvador. 
It's like this tiny car. 

1058
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,700
But you know, for me when I took
me a while to like I was just 

1059
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:33,600
very busy with a cosmos has lots
of that time. 

1060
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,100
But then one day I was just like
sit in the shower just thinking 

1061
01:00:36,100 --> 01:00:40,300
and I was like, holy shit. 
Like can we like let's rewind 

1062
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:42,900
back five years ago. 
Like at least when I got into 

1063
01:00:42,900 --> 01:00:49,700
crypto like I would have never 
like imagine like we like eight 

1064
01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:53,300
real country, like not like a 
fake country, like Lieber land 

1065
01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:55,300
or something. 
I know this is like a un 

1066
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:59,900
recognized country just aired 
Bitcoin as legal tender, and 

1067
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:04,300
that the just be like, magnitude
of like, wow, how far have we 

1068
01:01:04,300 --> 01:01:10,900
come in this like, great, like, 
geopolitical game of the 21st 

1069
01:01:10,900 --> 01:01:15,100
century that like Bitcoin is 
like legal tender of a country 

1070
01:01:15,100 --> 01:01:19,800
from being this, like, Internet 
dark money from like five years.

1071
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:24,400
I think that's a big like big 
leap for one small step for coin

1072
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,700
one, great leap for coin kind. 
I don't know. 

1073
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,000
I think this kind of ties in 
well with one of the themes, you

1074
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,100
know, you had mentioned Brian, 
which is like government 

1075
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:40,800
legitimacy and You know if 
smaller countries that have like

1076
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,900
less opportunity that had like a
lower opportunity cost start, 

1077
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,900
you know using Bitcoin as legal 
tender issuing bonds as legal 

1078
01:01:49,900 --> 01:01:55,300
tender denominating, you know, 
perhaps government services in 

1079
01:01:55,300 --> 01:01:59,900
crypto. 
If a lot of a lot of these 

1080
01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:05,300
countries start using Bitcoin, 
do you guys think that there's 

1081
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:11,600
potential for that to become? 
A sort of dividing line between,

1082
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:18,200
you know, Western countries that
try to I'm talking like us and 

1083
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:23,200
Europe. 
That that try to keep like grasp

1084
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,100
on like their power of the world
and a finance versus like all of

1085
01:02:27,100 --> 01:02:31,300
these kind of other countries 
that Western countries and want 

1086
01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:36,300
to portray as being like 
anti-establishment, you know, 

1087
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:39,600
anti, whatever money. 
Laundry and commodity like anti 

1088
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,000
anti money laundering like anti 
anti terrorism. 

1089
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:47,100
Like do you think that will if 
this starts to play out and like

1090
01:02:47,100 --> 01:02:51,100
lot of African countries and 
like South, South South American

1091
01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:57,900
country start adopting Bitcoin 
that this new axis of Evil, you 

1092
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:01,600
know, we might want to put it 
like starts to emerge. 

1093
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:08,100
II. 
Let me maybe talk about but I'm 

1094
01:03:08,100 --> 01:03:10,400
not sure at this point, but let 
me talk about like this. 

1095
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:16,300
My idea of the around this 
golden legitimacy point because 

1096
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:18,000
I see the maybe little bit 
differently. 

1097
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:24,200
So if you know how do 
governments have legitimacy, 

1098
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:25,800
right? 
Like they make basically a bunch

1099
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:30,600
of rules and then they need to 
be able to like enforce those 

1100
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,200
rules most of the time. 
Of course, there's going to be 

1101
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,200
like, some people who like don't
follow the rules but in general,

1102
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,100
you have to be like, okay, if 
you're going with makes it 

1103
01:03:40,100 --> 01:03:41,800
rules. 
I better follow them because 

1104
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:46,500
otherwise like they're going to 
come after me and if they can, 

1105
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:50,800
if they could do that, then like
okay, you have to like respect 

1106
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,300
the power of the government. 
But already, I mean crypto is 

1107
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:56,900
it's kind of a problem for that,
right? 

1108
01:03:56,900 --> 01:04:01,300
Because even if you looked at 
now the SEC, right, the SEC at 

1109
01:04:01,300 --> 01:04:04,100
some point made the statement of
like, you know, all these tokens

1110
01:04:04,100 --> 01:04:07,500
sales of Securities and like, 
you know, that kind of function 

1111
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:10,200
that most people were maybe like
intimidated enough and they 

1112
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,800
didn't do it and they enforced 
if they went after a bunch of 

1113
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,500
projects, but they even there, 
they had the problem that, you 

1114
01:04:16,500 --> 01:04:18,900
know, the number of projects 
they could go after. 

1115
01:04:18,900 --> 01:04:21,500
It was like limited because the 
resources are limited and they 

1116
01:04:21,500 --> 01:04:24,600
have to do like this. 
Nations very doesn't scale at 

1117
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:29,000
all. 
And and then, of course, you had

1118
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,900
all kinds of stuff going on for 
a long time that, you know, I 

1119
01:04:32,908 --> 01:04:35,600
guess is against are the sort of
spirit. 

1120
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:40,600
And now if you look at, if you 
look at all of the things 

1121
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:44,400
happening now is like defy and 
dolls and entities, and 

1122
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,200
everywhere is like the SEC right
there, like years, behind 

1123
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,900
somewhere else. 
And I was recently speaking 

1124
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:53,500
with, you know, some German 
company that's like Regulated 

1125
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:55,500
speak of regulators and 
everything. 

1126
01:04:55,500 --> 01:04:58,100
Like, oh, you speak with 
regulators and like each time. 

1127
01:04:58,100 --> 01:05:00,300
They're like what's taking 
again? 

1128
01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:04,100
Like how and they're just like 
totally somewhere else like 

1129
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:09,000
years behind. 
And so I think that's already is

1130
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,500
a huge problem for like the 
regulators and the legitimacy 

1131
01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:16,600
and power Regulators. 
But I think where it's going to 

1132
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:22,600
get like much much worse is 
around taxes because Taxis is 

1133
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,700
not something that's just 
applies to like a bunch of 

1134
01:05:25,700 --> 01:05:28,800
companies and project, but it 
applies to like everybody. 

1135
01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:33,600
And I think that already, you 
have to chance that if you like 

1136
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,800
active in crypto, and if you 
make guy in a dnf TD5 stuff 

1137
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:42,400
about, you know, deal forming a 
bunch of transactions becomes 

1138
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,700
like really hard to file taxes, 
right? 

1139
01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:47,700
Because first of all, like what 
he even detachable said, apply 

1140
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,200
and second of all, even if you 
have some understanding of the 

1141
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:51,600
tax rules, how are you going to 
go? 

1142
01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:56,300
Like, get all together these 
transactions and mean it's, it's

1143
01:05:56,300 --> 01:06:00,700
like, get pretty quickly to sort
of the point where it's like an 

1144
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:04,900
impossible task and you know, 
it's long as it's a small group,

1145
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,000
you know, crypto people that do 
that. 

1146
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,500
Maybe it's not such a problem. 
But I think if you get to the 

1147
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:15,200
point where you have, you know, 
10 percent of the population, 

1148
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,600
20% of the population that are 
like using those things because 

1149
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,900
they're like, I don't know, 
games and artists and their just

1150
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:25,500
part of, like, the consumer 
application people, use. 

1151
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:32,600
And then they're also even 
without wanting to basically 

1152
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:36,600
violating the taxes, and not 
fighting it properly. 

1153
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,000
And like, I think that's going 
to be like a huge, huge problem.

1154
01:06:40,100 --> 01:06:43,900
And I extremely hard to address.
I agree. 

1155
01:06:43,900 --> 01:06:47,200
And I, so basically, there's a 
couple of governments that have 

1156
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:51,100
started addressing this, by just
texting. 

1157
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:54,100
Ramps, right. 
So for instance, Austria does 

1158
01:06:54,100 --> 01:06:56,900
this now? 
So, basically, there's you pay 

1159
01:06:56,900 --> 01:07:02,200
capital gains tax on earlier 
games at 27 and a half percent 

1160
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:06,400
or whatever, Austria's capital 
gains taxes, but it only applies

1161
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,200
to our to off ramps and even to 
a certain extent. 

1162
01:07:09,300 --> 01:07:13,900
That's a good rule because it 
you can forget all your crypto 

1163
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:16,000
to crypto. 
You just need to have like some 

1164
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,000
cost base that you construct 
somehow. 

1165
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:23,100
But basically all the crypto to 
crypto, Is actions, they kind of

1166
01:07:23,300 --> 01:07:28,600
you can forget about them. 
But on the other hand, I would 

1167
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:33,700
assume that we move into a 
direction where the where the 

1168
01:07:33,700 --> 01:07:39,900
line between crypto and non 
crypto acids will be will be 

1169
01:07:39,900 --> 01:07:42,500
increasingly erased and then 
basically what are you going to 

1170
01:07:42,508 --> 01:07:46,000
do then? 
So basically then your tax like 

1171
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:51,500
a certain class of assets said 
25%, you class didn't 

1172
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,600
Differently you class. 
I mean it's it's a total mess 

1173
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:56,000
and I don't know how to go about
it. 

1174
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,300
What do you guys think? 
Yeah, I mean like friends does 

1175
01:07:59,300 --> 01:08:02,200
the same thing right? 
It's like you you only get taxed

1176
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,600
on the off-ramp and already 
there. 

1177
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,000
It's complicated, right? 
Like even as a even as like a 

1178
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,300
crypto user because like you 
have to you have to kind of like

1179
01:08:12,700 --> 01:08:15,400
keep track of like every time 
you go in and every time you go 

1180
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,100
out and it's like is that like 
it's also not clear whether or 

1181
01:08:19,100 --> 01:08:22,700
not like off, ramping is just 
selling into Euros on like 

1182
01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:25,100
cracking or actually moving 
money to your bank account. 

1183
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:27,500
This kind of like it's kind of 
vague there. 

1184
01:08:28,100 --> 01:08:30,300
What if you buy it? 
What have you buy a house with 

1185
01:08:30,300 --> 01:08:33,200
you as DC? 
That's also unclear. 

1186
01:08:33,300 --> 01:08:35,100
That's it. 
So that's that's that's also 

1187
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:37,600
some Advanced area. 
What if you buy a token that 

1188
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:39,600
allows you to live in a house 
for you? 

1189
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:43,399
Yeah, or like what if you use 
u.s. 

1190
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,500
D.c. 
To like invest in equities, or 

1191
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:46,800
invest it. 
Like, I mean, there's all these 

1192
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,899
sort of edge cases that like, 
what if you take a loan against 

1193
01:08:49,899 --> 01:08:55,300
like, you know, like position 
Ave and use that us DC to like 

1194
01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:58,899
invest in a company like or you 
know, where you get shares 

1195
01:08:58,899 --> 01:09:00,200
essentially. 
Like, there's all these sort of 

1196
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,399
edge cases that laws. 
The lock currently doesn't 

1197
01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,100
account for at least in France. 
I think like a lot of places 

1198
01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:09,100
there are. 
All these things are gray, areas

1199
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:12,300
that probably will get figured 
out. next couple years, but then

1200
01:09:12,700 --> 01:09:15,000
then there's just the question 
of control, and I think it 

1201
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:20,100
touches on Brian's point is like
You know, we're like how easy is

1202
01:09:20,100 --> 01:09:23,000
it for governments to actually 
control these things? 

1203
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,200
And I think it does fall into 
the bigger problem. 

1204
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:27,700
The bigger issue of legitimacy 
that I was talking to about it. 

1205
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:30,700
I said a different facet, you 
know, it's like the legitimacy 

1206
01:09:30,700 --> 01:09:35,399
of crypto as the thing that 
people use to like, you know, 

1207
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:42,100
like by things in fast, excetera
versus the legitimacy of like 

1208
01:09:42,100 --> 01:09:45,500
existing institutions and 
whether that exists sort of at 

1209
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:48,200
an individual level where it's 
like, people You know, having to

1210
01:09:48,207 --> 01:09:52,300
pay their taxes or whatever or 
like a government issuing bonds 

1211
01:09:52,300 --> 01:09:56,500
and being like, fuck you to the,
to the, you know, to the dollar 

1212
01:09:56,500 --> 01:10:01,100
standard it touches on like the 
same, I think legitimacy issue 

1213
01:10:01,100 --> 01:10:04,300
of like well established 
economies and well-established 

1214
01:10:04,300 --> 01:10:09,800
countries, like trying to really
have a like the development of 

1215
01:10:09,808 --> 01:10:13,700
crypto. 
And that's your look to see what

1216
01:10:13,700 --> 01:10:16,400
the response is. 
I think the taxing off-ramp 

1217
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:20,000
things, just, that's clearly not
going to work, right? 

1218
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,800
Because I very quickly using a 
stable coins and all that kind 

1219
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:23,900
of stuff. 
You don't need and you don't 

1220
01:10:23,900 --> 01:10:26,000
have to offer. 
Am I ever, right? 

1221
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:29,700
Or like maybe only if you have 
some sort of consumption, but 

1222
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:33,300
then it may be like just equates
to like the 80 right? 

1223
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:35,600
Or something. 
I mean, so I don't think the off

1224
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,300
ramp thing is gonna is gonna 
fight. 

1225
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:43,700
I think, from a confirm, it 
comes Respective of like it 

1226
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:47,800
being easy for people to like 
pay their taxes. 

1227
01:10:48,100 --> 01:10:52,900
I think a wealth tax is actually
easiest to do, right? 

1228
01:10:52,900 --> 01:10:56,000
Because I let's say if it's at 
the end of the year is just have

1229
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,100
to see. 
Yo, what am I crypto assets? 

1230
01:10:58,300 --> 01:11:00,900
And then like self-report it and
you're like, oh you're paying 

1231
01:11:00,900 --> 01:11:04,100
like half a percent of that in 
taxes or something like that? 

1232
01:11:04,100 --> 01:11:07,000
Like that. 
At least I think that's going to

1233
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,400
be pretty, you know, you have to
think worry about your 

1234
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:13,100
transactions during the year and
like I think That that will, of 

1235
01:11:13,100 --> 01:11:14,800
course still be hot. 
Everything's not. 

1236
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,600
It would be hard for governments
to like, make sure people 

1237
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:21,200
reported honestly, but at least 
if people want to pay their 

1238
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,400
taxes, honestly, I think that's 
something that's, you know, 

1239
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,800
going to like work. 
Well, even in the future, but of

1240
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:33,600
course, that's completely 
different from the way taxes 

1241
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:35,500
work. 
But even where you have a wealth

1242
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:38,200
tax and in the Mean Streets and 
you have wealth tax, you don't 

1243
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,100
have capital gains tax. 
So like that it kind of like 

1244
01:11:41,100 --> 01:11:45,400
still Pretty well, I think there
I'm not sure, you know how like 

1245
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:49,600
staking and yield farming and 
stuff like that is treated. 

1246
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,600
So it's probably still going to 
be issues. 

1247
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,800
But I think that tax system 
works like much much better than

1248
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,600
a lot of others in this kind of 
environment. 

1249
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:02,200
Yeah, and I mean Germany and 
principle that has a wealth tax.

1250
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,300
Basically, it's just current 20 
percent. 

1251
01:12:04,500 --> 01:12:08,200
So I mean in principle this has 
been done before, right. 

1252
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,200
I just basically we just got a 
new government and there's a, 

1253
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:17,300
there's a one of the one of the 
parties that have come to Powers

1254
01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:19,900
the business-friendly, free 
Democrats. 

1255
01:12:19,900 --> 01:12:22,900
And yeah, so basically in 
Germany, there's no chance of 

1256
01:12:22,900 --> 01:12:24,500
that happening in the next four 
years. 

1257
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:26,700
Do you guys want to talk about, 
Mev? 

1258
01:12:27,500 --> 01:12:30,500
I know it's one of the things 
that kind of, we Talked about in

1259
01:12:30,500 --> 01:12:34,900
advance and speculate about what
would happen in 2022. 

1260
01:12:35,100 --> 01:12:40,100
And there were, there were 
pretty desperate opinions here. 

1261
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,100
It's a solvable problem. 
Anyone who tells you otherwise 

1262
01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:47,700
is lying. 
Yeah, I'm 100% with Sonya on 

1263
01:12:47,700 --> 01:12:50,700
this one. 
Great on to the next point. 

1264
01:12:53,300 --> 01:12:56,800
Katie. 
Yeah, so you can gets how is it 

1265
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,400
so low or like you think it's a 
solvable problem for like a 

1266
01:13:00,407 --> 01:13:03,900
particular application or like 
let's be more specific. 

1267
01:13:03,900 --> 01:13:07,400
I guess what I'm talking about 
is like yeah, what I care about 

1268
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:09,600
more about than Mev is 
front-running, which is like a, 

1269
01:13:09,608 --> 01:13:13,600
very specific type of Meb. 
But, you know, I think there's 

1270
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:18,700
just like, harmful meme that's 
in the community right now, that

1271
01:13:18,700 --> 01:13:23,900
Mev is like an inevitable. 
Like evil that Have to like deal

1272
01:13:23,900 --> 01:13:28,300
with and like, okay, we should 
just like, you know, instead of 

1273
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:30,800
instead of a trying to solve the
problems. 

1274
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,900
We should instead, you know, it 
is build these tools to like 

1275
01:13:32,900 --> 01:13:36,900
extract them and like, you know,
have this be a profit source and

1276
01:13:36,900 --> 01:13:39,900
like all this stuff where it's 
like no this is like literally 

1277
01:13:39,900 --> 01:13:43,900
harming users and like, you 
know, I think one of the were 

1278
01:13:43,900 --> 01:13:48,100
talking about were the our team 
like, okay, why is why our decks

1279
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:50,000
is better than centralized 
exchanges. 

1280
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:53,000
And I think the biggest reason 
we could come up with was 

1281
01:13:53,100 --> 01:13:55,700
Because they can provide 
immediate assistance in a like 

1282
01:13:55,700 --> 01:13:58,100
front-running resistance in a 
way that centralized exchange 

1283
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:02,200
just can't I think that is you 
know, that is the reason why you

1284
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,400
should use a decks over a 
centralized exchange. 

1285
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:12,600
And yeah, so, you know I think 
that certain times, you know, is

1286
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:17,600
Mev going to be eliminated, 20 
know there will always be some 

1287
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:22,400
Mev and some front running but 
it's like I just think that the 

1288
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:28,500
community is like settling on a 
very harmful like spot where 

1289
01:14:28,500 --> 01:14:30,500
it's like oh, this is actually 
okay. 

1290
01:14:31,900 --> 01:14:37,600
So if he can quite a lot about 
this and also thinking a bit 

1291
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,800
about, you know, like that 
ethical thing, but yeah, like 

1292
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,000
one. 
So, you know, sandwiching, 

1293
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,200
right? 
People are like, okay, that's 

1294
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:46,900
clearly bad, right? 
People using, and like, okay, 

1295
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:49,600
that seems to be bad and but 
then I was like, looking at this

1296
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:51,600
other things. 
So, this is like liquidity 

1297
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,900
sandwiching. 
It was called my basically. 

1298
01:14:54,900 --> 01:14:57,700
It's like, okay, someone's 
making like a trade on like Yuna

1299
01:14:57,700 --> 01:15:00,800
swap, right? 
And on units will be three, 

1300
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,200
right? 
You can say, Where you provide 

1301
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,300
your liquidity, right? 
So you can provide it in that 

1302
01:15:06,300 --> 01:15:08,800
very and, you know, normally 
somebody might say, oh, I 

1303
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,900
provided in this larger range 
where most of the trading is. 

1304
01:15:11,900 --> 01:15:15,400
And then, but if you can 
concentrated very narrowly, 

1305
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:16,900
right? 
It means like with little 

1306
01:15:16,900 --> 01:15:18,400
Capital. 
You can provide a lot more 

1307
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,400
liquidity. 
And so basically just because 

1308
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,300
he's tarnishing was like, okay, 
someone seeing all some Traders 

1309
01:15:23,300 --> 01:15:26,800
coming in there and they putting
in basically the quiddity in 

1310
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,500
this pool before the trade 
happens to take it straight out,

1311
01:15:29,500 --> 01:15:31,800
right? 
So basically they have like Like

1312
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,100
provided liquidity for like, an 
infinitesimally, small 

1313
01:15:37,100 --> 01:15:41,300
infinitesimally, small moment. 
And now, is this like good or 

1314
01:15:41,300 --> 01:15:42,200
bad? 
Right? 

1315
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:46,000
Well for the Trader, it's good, 
right? 

1316
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:49,900
Because they're getting less 
slippage for the liquidity, 

1317
01:15:49,900 --> 01:15:52,400
provide the other liquidity 
providers in the pool. 

1318
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,000
It's bad, right? 
Because they get less 50 fees. 

1319
01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:00,900
And this other guy just comes up
with, like, little There was 

1320
01:16:00,900 --> 01:16:04,200
some guy from unit swap right to
like comment and adults thing 

1321
01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:06,700
and it was like this is amazing.
Like what? 

1322
01:16:06,700 --> 01:16:09,200
An amazing use of the power of 
units. 

1323
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:13,200
What we see right now, if you 
think of this know that called 

1324
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,400
that's called that's called an 
order book. 

1325
01:16:17,500 --> 01:16:20,100
Yeah, well, but I think if you 
think I'm like, okay, what are 

1326
01:16:20,100 --> 01:16:21,800
they like second? 
I mean, first of all, what a 

1327
01:16:21,808 --> 01:16:25,300
second-order, consequence of 
that like, I don't know, maybe 

1328
01:16:25,300 --> 01:16:27,900
you can start with three as to 
change their design, right? 

1329
01:16:28,100 --> 01:16:32,000
Maybe you could make a maybe it 
just is the reality of how it 

1330
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:32,700
works. 
Right? 

1331
01:16:32,700 --> 01:16:37,500
And maybe liquidity providers 
have to just like, but it makes 

1332
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:42,800
it very much of a thing. 
Like, good bad heart. 

1333
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:45,700
Like, how do you even know how 
to even look at it? 

1334
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:51,400
And so I think if she looked at,
he, I kind of like feel that. 

1335
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,800
So, Phil died in, you're the guy
who they loved his work and is 

1336
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,600
one of the flash co-founder, yet
an article where you use, 

1337
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,800
basically, sort of saying, okay,
if you look at that, maybe 

1338
01:17:03,100 --> 01:17:07,300
there's like, if you like a 
minor about later, you should 

1339
01:17:07,300 --> 01:17:10,700
like extracted if you're not 
application developer. 

1340
01:17:10,900 --> 01:17:13,900
Well, you have to design your 
application, right? 

1341
01:17:13,900 --> 01:17:17,200
So for example, Eunice, well 33 
has to Think about. 

1342
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:21,400
Well, it's possible for somebody
to show up right liquidity for a

1343
01:17:21,407 --> 01:17:23,300
single block. 
We move it straight again. 

1344
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:25,400
And like what does that mean for
their Design? 

1345
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:28,300
This is designed to work or not.
I'm not sure right, but maybe 

1346
01:17:28,300 --> 01:17:32,000
they have to change it and then 
by of course, right? 

1347
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:35,600
Like if you like, let's say it 
was, Moses is something maybe 

1348
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:37,900
probably makes a lot of 
definitely will make a lot of 

1349
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:41,100
sense to think like, okay, what 
are the types of things that 

1350
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,200
validated could do, right? 
That would be bad for the user 

1351
01:17:45,500 --> 01:17:47,500
and And then prevent those 
right? 

1352
01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:51,200
That always say make sense. 
Yeah, I think that what I mean, 

1353
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,800
two things one, I think I so 
about the u.s. 

1354
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:58,200
Rb3 liquidity example cheering. 
I think this is going to have 

1355
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,800
like second batt - second order 
effects that like, you know, 

1356
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:04,400
like I said, you know, your 
devolving back into an order 

1357
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,400
book and I think the a M&M's 
work because they have these 

1358
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,200
like, really cool second order 
effects where it became very 

1359
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:12,400
easy. 
It's okay. 

1360
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,400
When you have this angle 
quiddity sniping charging, the 

1361
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,500
more prevalent, No One's Gonna 
Be Price of LP anymore because 

1362
01:18:17,500 --> 01:18:19,100
you're basically going to get 
screwed. 

1363
01:18:19,100 --> 01:18:21,800
You're only going to take that 
IL and basically get none of 

1364
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:23,900
these. 
So what's going to happen is, 

1365
01:18:23,900 --> 01:18:26,700
people are going to stop being 
passive, LPS. 

1366
01:18:26,900 --> 01:18:30,000
You can evolve into an order 
book and part of the beauty of a

1367
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:37,300
M&M's was like you're like, hey,
if you have a new token, it 

1368
01:18:37,300 --> 01:18:41,200
decreased the barrier to like 
entry for new projects right 

1369
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:44,900
where you know currently without
an mmu, have to go higher 

1370
01:18:44,900 --> 01:18:47,700
basically professional. 
Get makers to go, like 

1371
01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:51,200
market-maker token and like do 
all the stuff but like without 

1372
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,500
that M&M's you could just have 
your community be the market 

1373
01:18:55,500 --> 01:18:59,200
makers for the thing and this 
decreases the barrier to entry 

1374
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:02,000
to launch new projects. 
And like, that's how we got this

1375
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:07,100
proliferation of like, New Tail 
End assets of which some of them

1376
01:19:07,100 --> 01:19:09,900
go on to become these 
multibillion-dollar things, 

1377
01:19:09,900 --> 01:19:12,500
right? 
But like, if you get rid of that

1378
01:19:12,500 --> 01:19:14,600
and like basically make it so no
one can be passive. 

1379
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:16,900
LPS anymore. 
You're gonna Basically just 

1380
01:19:16,900 --> 01:19:19,100
increased the barrier to entry 
and that's going to have like 

1381
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:21,400
harmful effect on the ecosystem 
as a whole. 

1382
01:19:22,100 --> 01:19:25,300
But don't you think that there 
are ways to actually design 

1383
01:19:25,300 --> 01:19:31,200
Market mechanisms that also work
for basically for a for for 

1384
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:37,800
discrete time as you have on 
blockchains and be for long for 

1385
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:39,400
a large number of long tail 
tokens. 

1386
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:44,600
So basically my position would 
be that of course Phil day and 

1387
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:49,000
says what he says because Cuz I 
mean, I mean, I mean, of course 

1388
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,800
he would say it's a morally 
upstanding thing to extract Mev 

1389
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,400
to kind of keep the system 
secure. 

1390
01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:03,900
I also find that I mean to me 
it's it's it's not just 

1391
01:20:03,900 --> 01:20:08,500
questionable. 
It's its outright morally wrong 

1392
01:20:08,500 --> 01:20:11,800
and whoever come see that is is 
I don't know what they're 

1393
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,800
looking at. 
But yeah, I think there's lots 

1394
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:21,200
of ways to actually design Apps 
to eliminate Mev to a large 

1395
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,000
extent. 
I think privacy is going to do 

1396
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,800
the rest. 
So I think that's going to be 

1397
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,600
the solution. 
I think, I think, I think the 

1398
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,000
burden falls on a combination of
the app and the protocols, 

1399
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:35,500
right? 
Because I think the blockchains 

1400
01:20:35,500 --> 01:20:39,100
can actually do a lot of the 
heavy lifting here, right? 

1401
01:20:39,100 --> 01:20:44,500
Where I think you can do, you 
know, threshold encryption, you 

1402
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:47,200
know, order randomization. 
We have this thing called Joint 

1403
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:50,000
proposals where, instead of 
having one person proposal 

1404
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,000
block. 
You have multiple actors be 

1405
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:55,000
allowed to contribute 
transactions to a block and like

1406
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:57,300
you can buy a lot of these 
techniques together at the 

1407
01:20:57,300 --> 01:21:00,700
protocol layer. 
You can get rid of like 90% of 

1408
01:21:00,700 --> 01:21:03,000
the heart. 
So let me be and then you know, 

1409
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:06,700
I think you tack on additional 
application layer things like 

1410
01:21:06,700 --> 01:21:08,500
batching and like they like 
this. 

1411
01:21:08,500 --> 01:21:11,700
I think you can you can solve 
this quite a bit. 

1412
01:21:13,300 --> 01:21:17,600
I want to hear Brian's taking 
honor bit because you've been 

1413
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:21,300
talking about it recently and 
again today. 

1414
01:21:21,300 --> 01:21:25,400
And this is a project that I've 
not followed very much as we 

1415
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,100
like that one side them on, but 
that usually, to be pretty 

1416
01:21:28,100 --> 01:21:30,800
bullish on. 
So, what's going on with Urban. 

1417
01:21:31,900 --> 01:21:34,200
Yeah. 
I mean, I was, so I guess I've 

1418
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,500
known to orbit. 
Oh, Kailyn. 

1419
01:21:37,500 --> 01:21:40,500
And like some of their with Team
since like three and a half 

1420
01:21:40,500 --> 01:21:46,000
years, I also Bought some some, 
some Intergalactic real estate 

1421
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:52,200
back then. 
And I always liked enormously, 

1422
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,700
like, strong to the division of 
irbid. 

1423
01:21:56,900 --> 01:22:00,900
But basically, having, I mean, 
it was the vision over be. 

1424
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:06,400
The one explanation that has to 
me, always felt like 

1425
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:09,500
understandable and kind of makes
sense to me is okay, like back 

1426
01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:12,900
in the day you have like your 
own computer and You went to the

1427
01:22:12,900 --> 01:22:16,400
store to buy a CD with the 
software and like you put this 

1428
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,500
to talk through it, like CD in 
your computer, and your data was

1429
01:22:19,500 --> 01:22:22,500
in your computer, and then you 
run the software on your data. 

1430
01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:25,100
And like, that's kind of how 
Computing work, right? 

1431
01:22:25,100 --> 01:22:27,500
And then you'd the cloud and 
then the program is in the cloud

1432
01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:32,000
and you dated was in the cloud. 
And it sort of my understanding 

1433
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,500
were B is crazy. 
Okay, let's create something. 

1434
01:22:35,700 --> 01:22:38,600
Like a basic Computing 
framework. 

1435
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:40,500
Again. 
That kind of works out back in 

1436
01:22:40,508 --> 01:22:46,000
the day, were I have my own kind
of virtual computer and my 

1437
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:51,500
software runs my computer and my
data is in my computer and I can

1438
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,400
and and then you can yeah 
distribute software and you can 

1439
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,300
communicate with other peers. 
And so I was always very drawn 

1440
01:23:00,300 --> 01:23:02,900
to this. 
Now, of course Urban is gone 

1441
01:23:02,900 --> 01:23:08,500
like ultimate hardcore in terms 
of we don't use any existing 

1442
01:23:08,500 --> 01:23:11,700
technology and we do everything 
from scratch, right. 

1443
01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:14,700
And And if the Project's 20 
years old at this point, right? 

1444
01:23:14,700 --> 01:23:19,000
This is the first 12 years. 
The guy, this is just one guy 

1445
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:23,200
who did it on his own and then I
think Kailyn and so, it's a very

1446
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,700
old project, right. 
A huge amount of work went into 

1447
01:23:26,700 --> 01:23:29,700
this. 
But now I think earlier this 

1448
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:33,100
year, you know, there was like 
now you I honor bit like 

1449
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:38,900
landscape and I've been yeah, 
like using it a little bit and, 

1450
01:23:40,300 --> 01:23:43,800
and it's nice, you know, you can
You can see actually I think you

1451
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,600
can see the potential already. 
There's some people who built a 

1452
01:23:46,608 --> 01:23:49,600
Bitcoin wallet in Arabic. 
All right, so you can have like,

1453
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,200
you know, so your Bitcoin in 
orbit make transactions from 

1454
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:59,000
there and And it's cool. 
We've had we had some people at 

1455
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:03,600
course, one who like pretty in 
like rainforest innervate to and

1456
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:08,700
so we've been actually been 
wanting to like on board 

1457
01:24:08,700 --> 01:24:10,400
everyone in the company on to 
Urban. 

1458
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:12,800
So like maybe you can start 
using it a little bit. 

1459
01:24:14,100 --> 01:24:17,200
So I I'm definitely bullish in 
urban and I think it could 

1460
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:21,600
become a sort of a bunch of 
different stuff. 

1461
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:22,700
I didn't know. 
It could definitely be a 

1462
01:24:22,708 --> 01:24:27,000
replacement for this court may 
be right at. 

1463
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:29,200
You can have communities on 
there and chat and stuff like 

1464
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,700
that. 
I mean you have an addressable 

1465
01:24:32,700 --> 01:24:35,700
name, right? 
So like you can easily like 

1466
01:24:35,700 --> 01:24:39,300
message others on Irv it. 
You could have it as a sort of. 

1467
01:24:41,300 --> 01:24:43,500
Yeah, you can still keys in 
there. 

1468
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:48,300
There's also one thing there's 
something called herb advisor 

1469
01:24:48,300 --> 01:24:52,000
where they basically built some 
kind of Minimus like thing. 

1470
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:55,300
So it's like a browser extension
and then, you know, you could 

1471
01:24:55,300 --> 01:24:57,800
like go and something and then 
you can basically like, you 

1472
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:01,900
know, sign something from 
proving your of it. 

1473
01:25:01,900 --> 01:25:03,400
Right? 
Like you asked exactly. 

1474
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,400
This is your herbal planet and 
like that. 

1475
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,000
So you could use like, I know 
sign in Reverb it right? 

1476
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:10,300
Then you are like, I think that 
would be would make a lot of 

1477
01:25:10,300 --> 01:25:10,900
sense. 
Right? 

1478
01:25:10,900 --> 01:25:14,300
Because you also have your yeah 
you username. 

1479
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:20,100
That is human readable and they 
have great design. 

1480
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:24,300
I think we always had like just 
amazing aesthetic. 

1481
01:25:25,100 --> 01:25:29,900
So, yeah, I'm excited. 
I'd like to read a little while 

1482
01:25:29,900 --> 01:25:31,400
ago. 
Asking people what project do 

1483
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:34,200
they think has the best 
Aesthetics and I think like herb

1484
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:37,800
it was like buying far like the 
number-one like response. 

1485
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,200
Yeah. 
I totally agree for sure, for 

1486
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:41,700
sure. 
Okay. 

1487
01:25:41,700 --> 01:25:45,700
So let me get, let me take a 
stab at trying to explain irbid 

1488
01:25:45,700 --> 01:25:48,800
because I think that like, no 
one understands it at because 

1489
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:51,300
part of the problem is every 
time you You ask them, they like

1490
01:25:51,300 --> 01:25:54,700
go on through this like deep 
weird tangents about like 

1491
01:25:54,700 --> 01:25:58,200
division, which is cool. 
But like no one had no one 

1492
01:25:58,200 --> 01:25:59,700
explained to me correctly, how 
it works. 

1493
01:25:59,700 --> 01:26:03,400
And so this is my understanding.
Can you confirm whether I'm 

1494
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:07,800
correct or not on this? 
From what I can do. 

1495
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,600
You guys remember secure 
scuttlebutt? 

1496
01:26:09,700 --> 01:26:12,700
We did an episode with them a 
little while ago, you know, 

1497
01:26:12,700 --> 01:26:15,400
while ago. 
And it was basically this like 

1498
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:21,300
social network that used like 
Hash a dag like hash linking 

1499
01:26:21,300 --> 01:26:23,400
structure to build like a 
network. 

1500
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,500
So basically it will use a 
gossip Network and you know that

1501
01:26:26,500 --> 01:26:28,500
Sebastian will send a message to
me. 

1502
01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:30,300
I'll add it to my little hash 
chain. 

1503
01:26:30,500 --> 01:26:33,300
And then next time I send a 
message to Brian. 

1504
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:36,300
I'll also pass. 
Along all the messages that 

1505
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:39,500
Sebastian had said to me and 
basically we get some sort of 

1506
01:26:39,500 --> 01:26:43,500
eventual consistency on the 
Topography of the social 

1507
01:26:43,500 --> 01:26:45,300
network. 
And like, you know, if people 

1508
01:26:45,300 --> 01:26:48,300
like you and it's okay for an 
eventual consistency because 

1509
01:26:48,300 --> 01:26:51,300
like a double sign problem is 
less of an issue when we're 

1510
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:53,800
talking about social networks 
than it is when we're dealing 

1511
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,400
with like payments and money. 
So here's my theory of what 

1512
01:26:57,700 --> 01:26:59,700
Urban is. 
Okay. 

1513
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:05,600
So Bitcoin invented this cool 
new data structure called a 

1514
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:10,400
blockchain and it was just like 
very fast and system see all the

1515
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,900
stuff cool things and they 
invented it for payments and 

1516
01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:19,100
then etherium came along and 
said, hey cool data structure. 

1517
01:27:19,500 --> 01:27:22,100
What if we slap a 
turing-complete VM on top of 

1518
01:27:22,100 --> 01:27:25,400
this? 
Now, my theory is what herb it 

1519
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:30,300
does, is it looks at Sakura 
scuttlebutt and says, hey, cool 

1520
01:27:30,300 --> 01:27:32,800
data structure. 
What if we slap a 

1521
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,700
turing-complete VM on top of 
this? 

1522
01:27:34,900 --> 01:27:37,500
And so, basically, what's 
happening is, I have my little 

1523
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:42,400
VM that's like doing all this 
computation and it's like it's 

1524
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:44,700
hash linking the result of all 
the computation. 

1525
01:27:44,900 --> 01:27:49,800
But every time, your VM sends a 
message to my VM, let's say it's

1526
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,300
a your scent, you know, anything
that you would send over the 

1527
01:27:52,300 --> 01:27:54,400
internet, but Message you sent 
me. 

1528
01:27:54,700 --> 01:28:00,000
I include that into my sort of 
hash linked tree and then when I

1529
01:28:00,008 --> 01:28:05,200
talk to Sebastian, I tell him, 
hey, by the way, Brian's VM sent

1530
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,900
a message to my VM. 
That's what I understand Urban 

1531
01:28:08,900 --> 01:28:11,600
to be. 
Is that am I on the Mark here? 

1532
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:19,000
I'm not sure. 
But that so here's another like 

1533
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:22,800
when we had this internal talk 
and then we had escaped from the

1534
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:26,400
team Irvin who gave talking one 
of the ways he explained 

1535
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:30,500
additional support was nice. 
Was that if you, if you look at 

1536
01:28:30,500 --> 01:28:33,400
crypto right in crypto, we have 
that transactions, right? 

1537
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:35,100
When you focus, you have all 
these chains where you have 

1538
01:28:35,100 --> 01:28:37,900
different accounts, any 
different transactions, and then

1539
01:28:37,900 --> 01:28:41,200
identity, and data, often 
something as kind of, like, 

1540
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:46,900
layered on top of it, or on the 
I and then Weaver bead, right? 

1541
01:28:46,900 --> 01:28:50,700
You really have. 
It's like identity and data 

1542
01:28:50,900 --> 01:28:54,100
that's like the the foundation 
and there's actually no 

1543
01:28:54,100 --> 01:28:56,800
blockchain, right? 
And there's no transactions, but

1544
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:02,200
then you can put those on top. 
And, and so it's kind of inverts

1545
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:05,800
a little bit normal approach. 
We are having in blockchain, and

1546
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:11,100
I think that Makes sense, right?
And also sort of like what or 

1547
01:29:11,100 --> 01:29:14,100
maybe another way to think about
is like, what's your like you 

1548
01:29:14,100 --> 01:29:18,000
digital home? 
Like, where is where is your 

1549
01:29:18,500 --> 01:29:22,400
like you base in a way? 
Like maybe it's like your 

1550
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:24,300
computer. 
I don't know like that your 

1551
01:29:24,300 --> 01:29:27,500
heart is going to computer or is
it something like LastPass like 

1552
01:29:27,500 --> 01:29:30,100
a poor? 
A password manager, maybe or 

1553
01:29:30,100 --> 01:29:34,000
like I get I get that. 
My question is I want to 

1554
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,000
understand is how does it work? 
And that's what I'm like, you 

1555
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:39,400
know. 
Go, I haven't fully understood 

1556
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:43,000
like, okay, they say like, okay.
Yes, you can transfer your like 

1557
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:45,600
state of your computer. 
So, you know, instead of being 

1558
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:48,000
linked or physical server. 
It's just like transferable 

1559
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:49,600
thing. 
But my question is like, yes, 

1560
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,800
how am I assumption? 
What's happening here. 

1561
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:55,500
Once again is like, you know, 
let's say I have this entire 

1562
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:58,100
hash think of all the 
computation I've done, I sent 

1563
01:29:58,100 --> 01:30:02,100
that over to Sebastian and then 
I destroy this computer move to 

1564
01:30:02,100 --> 01:30:04,400
a new computer when I'm thinking
up. 

1565
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,400
Again. 
I find out from Sebastian. 

1566
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:09,600
Oh, here's the current. 
State of or at least Sebastian's

1567
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:11,800
knowledge of the current state 
of my VM. 

1568
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:14,900
This is all the computation I 
had done up until then. 

1569
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,700
Yeah, actually I so that is 
something. 

1570
01:30:19,700 --> 01:30:24,400
I don't know that you have to 
ask somebody more technically 

1571
01:30:25,300 --> 01:30:28,600
competent of a sudden. 
I'm not sure. 

1572
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,300
I'm trying to boot up a ship 
right now and it's telling me 

1573
01:30:31,300 --> 01:30:32,600
it's going to take an hour or 
so. 

1574
01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:37,800
No, I mean this sounds really 
interesting II. 

1575
01:30:37,800 --> 01:30:41,500
I think I mean I was like secure
Scott about was a project that I

1576
01:30:41,500 --> 01:30:44,100
thought was really cool like 
technically and like I like this

1577
01:30:44,100 --> 01:30:45,800
idea. 
Of. 

1578
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:51,300
Yeah, being able to create a 
sort of hash chain without a 

1579
01:30:51,300 --> 01:30:54,500
blockchain. 
And like I said, chily, you, you

1580
01:30:55,100 --> 01:30:58,300
you sort of like sink State like
whenever whenever you want, 

1581
01:30:58,300 --> 01:30:59,500
right? 
Like you send a message and you 

1582
01:30:59,508 --> 01:31:04,600
can sink that state over, you 
know, even a like over over when

1583
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:08,000
like, if you're in the same in 
the same place or over like a 

1584
01:31:08,700 --> 01:31:12,700
USB stick or some like that. 
And so yeah, it seems cool that 

1585
01:31:12,700 --> 01:31:15,400
you could also do that sort of 
like with computation. 

1586
01:31:15,700 --> 01:31:17,200
Yeah. 
If my understanding of describe,

1587
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:19,000
that's really cool. 
I think there's a lot of cool 

1588
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:23,000
use cases of that. 
That this was super fun and I 

1589
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:28,800
will look into a bit now. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1590
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,200
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1591
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:33,100
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01:31:33,108 --> 01:31:36,900
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01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:49,400
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