1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,100 This is epicenter episode 366 with guest Trent McConaughey. 2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,400 I am Sebastian culture and you're listening to epicenter 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,200 the podcast, worry interview, crypto, Founders, Builders and 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,400 thought leaders. On this show, we dive deep to 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,000 learn how things work at a technical level, and we fly high 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,600 to understand Visionary, Concepts, and long-term trends. 7 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:34,300 If you like epicenter, the best way to support us is to leave a 8 00:00:34,308 --> 00:00:37,100 review on Apple podcasts. And if you're on a Mac or iOS 9 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,000 device the easiest Way to do that is to go to epicenter dot 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,400 rocks /. Apple today my guest is Trent 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,000 McConaughy and longtime listeners of the podcast will 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,100 recognize Trent as a repeat guests. 13 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:51,200 In fact, this was his fourth time on the show and today he 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,000 comes to us to tell us all about ocean protocol which he and his 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,100 team have been working on for some time. 16 00:00:57,100 --> 00:01:00,700 Now, in fact, ocean protocol just released its P3 which 17 00:01:00,700 --> 00:01:05,900 builds and improves on previous versions of the platform and now 18 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:11,700 lives natively on Theorem main chain ocean protocol is a 19 00:01:11,708 --> 00:01:15,700 platform to create data marketplaces and if you haven't 20 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:20,800 noticed data is a big business. By some estimates, it is over 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,200 500 billion dollars in Europe alone. 22 00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:29,100 And what is obvious to everyone who is observing the space. 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,300 That there's a fundamental misalignment between those 24 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:37,900 creating the data and those consuming it, it's a very one. 25 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:44,000 Directional value flow, in terms of those who are providing the 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,000 value, which is the data itself and those who are extracting 27 00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:49,700 that value and those are big Tech platforms. 28 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:55,000 We typically use that data to sell signals and advertising to 29 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Brands and Merchants as Trent describes it, there is a shadow 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,100 data economy. Just as there is Shadow Banking 31 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:06,500 and we need to flip this model on its head and if you haven't 32 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:11,400 watched the Recent documentary by Tristana Harris. 33 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,200 The social dilemma I would encourage you to check it out 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,700 because it really kind of summarizes this problem in a 35 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:20,600 very concise way. And in a way that's easy to wrap 36 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,500 your head around. Anyway, the ocean protocol 37 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:27,300 provides an alternative to this model and alternative in which 38 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:31,100 data providers users typically can sell their data on the 39 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,700 platform to whomever is interested in it. 40 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:37,700 Remember wants to buy it and that data set is represented as 41 00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:40,500 a token. Ian and that tokens value is a 42 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,800 function of the usefulness of that data to whomever wants to 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,500 buy it. So it's a much more Equitable 44 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,300 Market where the value flow is more cyclical than one 45 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:52,400 directional. This was such a fun and 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,300 fascinating conversation, I always enjoy speaking with 47 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:58,300 Trent, gives you such a Visionary and just all around a 48 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:00,700 nice guy. And I hope to see this model 49 00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:04,600 develop and I hope to see it really take hold because there's 50 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,900 so much at stake here and the current model so many things 51 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:11,800 that are broken with it, we're only beginning to see the impact 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,000 that that has on our society. So I think that Lots is at stake 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,900 here and ocean protocol, provides an alternative if not a 54 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,200 solution to this problem. So with that, here's my 55 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,400 conversation with Trent McConaughey. 56 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:31,600 I'm here with fellow Canadian Trent McConaughey, who, who is 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,200 repeat guests on the show. In fact, I was looking just 58 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,300 before Trent, is actually has actually been on the show for X 59 00:03:39,300 --> 00:03:43,900 so he holds second place after Shawn Jones, who, of course, was 60 00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:46,900 our Regulatory Affairs because correspondent early in the day. 61 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:51,500 And so, welcome back for a fourth time on epicenter for and 62 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,200 great to be here. Going to be fun as usual. 63 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:57,100 Yeah, the actually the last time you Iran. 64 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,300 You surprised me with fredersen if you guys were at some 65 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:03,700 conference and you were supposed to come on to talk about IP DB 66 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:06,800 and and then lo and behold you like oh I got Fred here. 67 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,100 Let's talk about data and and machine learning and likes our 68 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,600 data rights on the blockchain. And that was really interesting 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,500 conversation and I was listening to a little bit of that in 70 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:22,400 preparation for this. But for those who perhaps a new 71 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,400 the show or haven't heard your previous episodes, remind our 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,300 listeners of Who You Are. Are and what you're doing and 73 00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:29,900 how you got here. Sure. 74 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:33,100 So grew up in rural Canada, train us and electrical 75 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:35,800 engineering computer scientist. And then I did a couple AI 76 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,500 companies towards computer chip design as well as a PhD on that 77 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:44,700 as well. In 2013 in 2010, I actually 78 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:48,300 bought some Bitcoin lost those private Keys long ago in 2013, I 79 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:51,300 discovered you know, really what blockchain meant hanging out of 80 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:56,100 room. 77 in Berlin, the eponymous room 77 and kind of 81 00:04:56,500 --> 00:04:58,400 You know, that was the beginning of really truly diving down the 82 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,800 rabbit hole and started hacking away at ideas and stuff and it 83 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,200 led to ascribe than between to be and IP to be then ocean. 84 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,600 Now, so a scribe, was basically a project about asking the 85 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,500 question, how do you collect digital art and how do artists 86 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,600 that create digital art, get paid and this was, you know back 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,800 in 2013 2014 one of my co-founders was a professional 88 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,400 curator had worked in the Louver all these things. 89 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,200 So we did this and We released a beta in 2014 and worked with a 90 00:05:29,207 --> 00:05:32,100 lot of leading digital artists and went live in 2015 in full 91 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:35,100 production. And, you know, it was really 92 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:38,900 fun, really enjoyed it. Great cause all that, but scale 93 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:40,300 was an issue. We had built on top of Bitcoin 94 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:42,700 blockchain if the room didn't even exist it first, right? 95 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:46,100 And, you know, it was clear that the scaling Solutions weren't 96 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:47,300 going to be coming any time soon. 97 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,400 So we said, okay we don't need full smart contract, platform, 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Etc. Anyway. 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,600 So let's instead take an existing distributed database 100 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:59,700 and And decentralize it. So at first we wrapped rethink 101 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:04,700 DB and then that pivoted to mongo and we basically put the 102 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:07,300 fft algorithm around it, tenement actually by the end. 103 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:10,300 So that was between you me. And that was in that sort of 104 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:15,500 2015, 2016, 2017 era. And that also you know, what was 105 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:18,500 a pretty useful tool. It was very appealing, 106 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:20,600 especially to Enterprises looking to dip your toes in 107 00:06:20,608 --> 00:06:23,300 blockchain who kind of understood databases and so on. 108 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,100 We worked with a lot of Enterprises in that era and It 109 00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:29,500 was pretty neat at the same time to we saw that. 110 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:33,100 We really wanted to have sort of this public blockchain database 111 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:40,100 utility if you will so because bikini be software was set up in 112 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:42,800 Federated way. Now we call that a POA type 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,000 approach then we needed to do a lot of governance work. 114 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:50,700 Sort of lining up. Many people to be nodes etc etc, 115 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:52,900 etc. And around that we created a 116 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:56,500 nonprofit organization germany-based one called IP. 117 00:06:56,700 --> 00:07:00,700 BB interplanetary database. And so that was basically the 118 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:03,600 nonprofit arm of between to be this was all tokens by the way 119 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,100 as well. We didn't see the need for a 120 00:07:05,108 --> 00:07:09,200 token, the really wasn't. So we didn't have one and so 121 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,600 basically that went along and it's still around to this day as 122 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,300 well. Finally in 2017, we saw late, 123 00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:20,900 well actually even 2016 but especially 2017 we were starting 124 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:24,300 to do projects and think about how do you reconcile a i with 125 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:27,300 blockchain. And at first just kind of But 126 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,000 then people were coming to us saying, hey, you know, like 127 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,300 Toyota said, we're doing autonomous driving, we really 128 00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:35,800 need to have way more data than Toyota itself has. 129 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:39,900 So we think that a decentralized data exchange could be really, 130 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:41,600 really useful. And you know what you wrote 131 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,400 about about decentralized exchange is Trent. 132 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:45,900 This is great. Let's you know, build a 133 00:07:45,907 --> 00:07:47,700 prototype. So we built that and ship that 134 00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:50,700 in Spring of 2017 and just in the last show, Sebastian that's 135 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:52,200 probably when I talk to you about that. 136 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,600 We had just announced it that same week in fact. 137 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,100 That's right. I think I think when I came on 138 00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:59,000 with Fred And I had just come off the stage of announcing in a 139 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,000 consensus. Exactly. 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,200 Yeah, I remember that. So, so basically from then 141 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,200 though, and also in that episode, we had talked about 142 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,900 data exchanges and within a month or two after that, you 143 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:09,900 know, the word ocean. We came up with the word ocean 144 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:12,700 for this project that had been brewing inside inside the 145 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:16,200 organization and it was really addressing. 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,900 We basically, when we were thinking, what a, I'm blockchain 147 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 and all the different problems that you could solve all roads, 148 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,900 led to data exchange, you know, there's problems related to 149 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:30,100 social media where If you are a Facebook or Google, you 150 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:33,299 basically have all this data of all the people, that's kind of 151 00:08:33,308 --> 00:08:35,299 signed it over giving you permission to do whatever you 152 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:37,799 want. And it's really, really harmful 153 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:41,000 to society in many ways you could go on and on or just watch 154 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,600 the social dilemma or whatever. But there's a lot of other 155 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,900 issues to write if you're an AI startup and you're trying to 156 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:49,300 build any, I model, you're going to be starved for data. 157 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,100 You just don't know where to get the data from. 158 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,600 And the thing is AI loves data with modern machine, learning 159 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,500 based AI, deep learning, and all this sort of thing. 160 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,200 Thing to get more accuracy, you need more data and, you know, 161 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,200 you want to go from, you know, 30 percent error to 10 percent 162 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,500 to one percent, two point, one percent two point, zero, one 163 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:05,800 percent, depending on the application. 164 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,800 And for that you need, you know, 10x more data, 10x more data 10x 165 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,100 more day to 10x more data and AI people don't have the tools for 166 00:09:12,108 --> 00:09:13,800 that. You know, how do they get more 167 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,500 data and the sort of been the state economy, but it's just 168 00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:20,600 like, there's been a traditional banking economy that's all 169 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,000 Shadow, right? You know, leading to the 2008 170 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,600 financial crisis, and many financial crisis before that 171 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,000 we've got kind of Same thing in the world of data, right? 172 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,100 There's a shadow data economy and we have a data crisis. 173 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:33,700 Now that has been sort of Brewing over the last 10 years. 174 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:36,200 20 years. And we haven't really noticed it 175 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,000 because it's sort of been like a frog boiling in a pot of water 176 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,800 right at first. It wasn't boiling, but bit by 177 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,500 bit, now it's clearly boiling and people are asking what to 178 00:09:45,508 --> 00:09:48,900 do. So and just as crypto said, 179 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:50,500 okay, there's the shadow banking economy. 180 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:56,100 Let's use crypto to try to create an open Money economy and 181 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,400 we have that not just with Bitcoin as a store of value and 182 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,900 ethereum as a foundation, but also defying top and all the 183 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:04,300 things there. So, what oceans goal is to say, 184 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:09,300 hey, there's also a shadow date economy and let's use crypto 185 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:13,900 tools to create an open data economy, where there's Shades of 186 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:17,800 Grey permissioning privacy. And so on, Yeah, thanks for that 187 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,000 recap, and all these things, you know, that you mentioned that 188 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,700 you worked on. So first described then Big 189 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:26,200 Chain DB then. Then eye PDD to me these things 190 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,600 were all these projects were also Visionary, like first 191 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,300 putting art on the blockchain. I mean, this was in like 2014. 192 00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:34,000 I think the first time you came on this was such an interesting 193 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,400 concept and interesting idea, I think it was really the one of 194 00:10:37,408 --> 00:10:40,200 the first times that, you know, people were confronted with the 195 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,000 idea of a non fungible good on the blockchain. 196 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,200 And this was before etherium, this was before n ftes, And then 197 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,000 in a big chain, DB I mean, to me like I latched onto that idea. 198 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,700 And of course, I pdb afterwards, I thought that it was so 199 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:57,000 powerful, you know, as a developer like as a web 200 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,200 developer, I love the idea of having a permissionless publicly 201 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,500 available database available on the blockchain on a peer-to-peer 202 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:07,500 infrastructure. I guess is better way to put it 203 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,800 and you know, same for IPs fast like I have this sort of similar 204 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,100 you know attachment to that to that idea. 205 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:17,100 Was that concept too simplistic? No. 206 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:20,700 I think about some of the shortcuts that we sometimes take 207 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:24,400 when trying to innovate with like new technologies and I 208 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,800 wonder if the if the ipd be idea was perhaps simplistic like like 209 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,400 let's say let's put newspapers on the internet but we'll just 210 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,600 do that in PDF format right? Like not considering what the 211 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,800 technology affords and the types of innovations that the 212 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,800 technology provides. You think that that was perhaps 213 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,900 the case and that ocean sort of builds like a new model that 214 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:48,400 really leverages Three Technologies to the fullest. 215 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:52,500 So I think. Overall, first of all simple is 216 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:56,200 good in general, but it's, you know, you want to make things 217 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,300 simple but no simpler right to paraphrase, Einstein. 218 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:03,700 And it's it can be hard to arrive at simple, you know, Mark 219 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:05,900 Twain has this quote that I just love. 220 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:10,200 He said, I'm sorry, I had to write you a long letter because 221 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,800 I had no time to write a short one. 222 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,400 And I think this is really true. So you know, Simplicity is hard 223 00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:17,900 simple as hard. I think in the case of big chain 224 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:20,900 to be, it was a very simple conceptual idea, leveraging. 225 00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:23,800 You know all this great infrastructure developed for the 226 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,300 distributed systems world. Like how does Facebook actually 227 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:27,100 scale? Right? 228 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:29,700 So leveraging, those sorts of technologies that part was 229 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,000 found. I think the challenge that 230 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,300 bikini be and IPTV, had was the sheer underestimation of how 231 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:40,100 hard it is to roll out. Something that is permissioned. 232 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,800 The technology is easier but the politics and everything else 233 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,400 around it is much much harder. I've seen team after team after 234 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,200 team, you know, say, hey, let's go for something that's 235 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,800 permissioned thinking that, you know, they can use that as a 236 00:12:53,808 --> 00:12:56,800 stepping stone for permission has and it's just so much 237 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,600 effort. We even did that for the first 238 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,300 parts of ocean and stuff, right. We actually had spent a lot of 239 00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:03,800 effort put on doing that the pulpit, the politics. 240 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,200 If you will a talking to a lot of teams and organizations to 241 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,600 get them to be nodes for IPTV and so on. 242 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:12,300 I remember those conversations. Yeah, that's right. 243 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,200 I mean, stratum was was part of that. 244 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,700 Initial group of people we were, we were speaking. 245 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,800 King about exactly this, you know, how do we set this up? 246 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,600 And like exactly governance. And that was the challenging 247 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,000 part is like not technology. It's human interaction and 248 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,500 governance is the most complicated. 249 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:28,900 Exactly. So, you know, the government's 250 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:30,100 as well as how does this relate to the law? 251 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:33,100 Because once you have a POA or Federated Network, then you have 252 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:37,200 to, you know, it has typically much stronger ties to Identity, 253 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,800 and then these organizations that are running the nodes have 254 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,900 to they have higher degrees of liability. 255 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:48,200 And then if you start to put together, Simply an agreement 256 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,100 for sort of a note, operating agreement of, you know, what 257 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:55,900 rights and responsibilities they have the responsibilities in the 258 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:58,700 liability of start to away the rights quite a lot actually 259 00:13:58,700 --> 00:13:59,900 unless you're very careful, right? 260 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,700 And if they're if they start to get too much reward on the other 261 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:05,900 hand from just running a node, then it has the risk of becoming 262 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:10,600 a cabal as well. So it's really a tough thread to 263 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,600 to solve and frankly. It wasn't really like we always 264 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,400 had the plan with pitching to be to be permission this. 265 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:16,700 Anyway, it was just a stepping stone. 266 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:22,500 And so we saw that, okay? We could develop this more or we 267 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:25,600 could go towards where we saw. There was more you know more 268 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,600 opportunity in a sense with ocean and keep maintaining 269 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,200 bikini be, it's not like we just shut down one and one for the 270 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,500 other we actually you've evolved from wanted together. 271 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:37,000 Basically now you know, ocean is on a mission of substrate and 272 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,000 even as more contracts themselves or permissionless by 273 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,800 virtue of not having any built-in upgradability and it's 274 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,300 it's basically it's radically simpler from a governance 275 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:47,800 perspective. There is still government, 276 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,500 right? But, you know, on the substrate 277 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,200 side, you have to do a hard fork. 278 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:53,700 And one level above you have to convince your community to 279 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,400 switch over from one thing to the next. 280 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:58,300 And I view that as a really good thing, right? 281 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:03,200 It's a high friction for, for changing decisions, that should 282 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,800 take High friction. There are other cases where you 283 00:15:05,808 --> 00:15:09,000 want to have low friction, even at the substrate level and I'm 284 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,800 super thetic of all of those approaches as well, for on chain 285 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:12,900 upgrades. Great. 286 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000 But for oceans needs, you know, fully permissionless at the 287 00:15:16,008 --> 00:15:18,000 substrate level. And permissionless at the Smart 288 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,200 contract level is what makes sense. 289 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,500 And that's where right now. Cool, let's come back to this 290 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:24,700 idea of the, the shadow data economy. 291 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,700 Can you describe in your view? What that means, and what that 292 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:31,000 looks like and you know for for for people who perhaps are, I 293 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,200 mean I'm sure our listeners are all very aware of, you know, the 294 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,400 issues that exist with regards to people's data and you know 295 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,800 you talked about the social debt on my I watch that movie just 296 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,200 this week, describe what the problem is here and what lurks 297 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,500 in the shadows if you will. The big problem overall is that 298 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,800 our personal sovereignty is at risk and by that, I mean, our 299 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:03,400 ability to take action and make decisions without fear of 300 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,000 basically oppression or, you know, negative things happening 301 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800 to us. And that sounds very kind of 302 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,900 Broad and vague and it kind of is, but then you can kind of 303 00:16:11,908 --> 00:16:14,700 drill into what this means. There's a quote from the World 304 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,000 Bank at two or three years ago that says, you know, Digital 305 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:22,400 economy is the data economy and that reflects this idea that as 306 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,000 you know, with every passing your the world is becoming more 307 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,900 and more digital and what's powering the digital world is, 308 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:33,100 you know, data itself and so there's sort of this data 309 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:37,300 flowing everywhere but we haven't really given it its due. 310 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,500 In terms of this super important thing that we have to keep tabs 311 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,800 on and because of that, you know, the average citizen 312 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,100 doesn't want to think about it, you know. 313 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,500 They just want to share photos and stuff. 314 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,100 And I get that, that makes tons of sense, but the thing is 315 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,600 there's businesses that have emerged that real on that take 316 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,400 advantage of this. It's an Arbitrage. 317 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,400 So they understand that citizens don't know about this or 318 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,800 citizens kind of have given up on them, even if they do know 319 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,200 about it, they can't do anything about it. 320 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,000 So these companies say okay, well let's take, you know, group 321 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,300 these people into a thousand or a million or a billion people, 322 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,000 and then mine that data, and then, use that to sell stuff 323 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,599 back at them, or basically change their decision-making 324 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,300 Behavior somehow sometime, right? 325 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:14,200 And it's at the level of the company. 326 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,000 It's also at the level of the nation, right? 327 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,500 There's interplays as well. You know there's companies out 328 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,700 there and individuals and organizations that try to sway 329 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,700 election results, right by leveraging data and various 330 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,000 ways. So there you know there there 331 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,500 have been flows of data for a long time, going back to, you 332 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:32,700 know, even before the early days of the PC, you know, from the 333 00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,300 birth of the computer, but it hasn't mattered for a long time 334 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,700 because we simply hadn't. Haven't had the scale and even 335 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:39,500 on the internet, the early days, it was so small, it didn't 336 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:40,800 matter. People hadn't figured this out 337 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,000 yet. But you know, starting in the 338 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,500 sort of early 2000s, that's one sort of AI people realize that 339 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,900 Data was really really important. 340 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:50,100 And then, you know, Google themselves published this paper 341 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:52,400 in about 2007, called the unreasonable effectiveness of 342 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,600 data, realizing that okay. If they can actually get more 343 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,500 data than they can have more accurate am models, which 344 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:01,300 basically turns into money for them, right? 345 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,500 And the problem is that, there they are intent of misaligned 346 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,300 between the people and Google, there's an incentive 347 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:11,200 misalignment between the people and Facebook. 348 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,800 Why? Because of ads, right? 349 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,500 In their case, they're trying to sell more ads, which basically 350 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:16,500 means, you know, learning as much. 351 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,200 You, but you can so you can be as so that the ads can be as 352 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:24,300 targeted as possible and that, of course, so they're trying to 353 00:18:24,308 --> 00:18:26,800 gather as much data as they can. The state, of course, is also 354 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,600 flowing into prism excetera. You know, after the Snowden 355 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,300 Revelations, it's not like prison went away, the government 356 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,000 double down and there's a 10x 100x there. 357 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,500 So our decisions are getting shaped more and more and more by 358 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,900 companies with a profit motive that is against their interests 359 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,400 and you it's very very subtle, right? 360 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,300 Like Sure. Does it. 361 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:50,000 Facebook doesn't Google does it all this Instagram? 362 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,800 All these. It's unfortunate this way and it 363 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,200 affects, you know, our decision making ability, but like I said, 364 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,300 it doesn't stop there, right? It's not just, you know, okay? 365 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:00,700 You might see these things there and might change your thought, 366 00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:03,800 but it actually affect the outcomes of Elections, which 367 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:09,400 then leads to, you know, president's being hired who then 368 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,700 lead to basically ignoring pandemics, right? 369 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,500 And you have a quarter of a million, you know, you have more 370 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,000 people killed in depend, Emma. Can you know, It's in the 371 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,900 Vietnam War and this is one of the big levers that affected. 372 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:24,300 This is because of this interplay between data and 373 00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:26,100 profit motives and this misalignment of incentives. 374 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:30,900 So so that's kind of like the sort of the problem we're trying 375 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:34,000 to solve from the perspective of, you know, it's a 376 00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,400 misalignment of incentives and so on around data and you can 377 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:38,700 view it as sort of a tear it down thing. 378 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:41,600 But I also like to view things in sort of a Build It Up way. 379 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,300 And I really prefer that this is where I see. 380 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,600 Okay, what's the A way for people to think about this. 381 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,300 And it really comes down to not your keys, not your data, your 382 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,300 keys, your data. So riffing on andreea, Central 383 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:56,100 Antonopoulos on the Bitcoin, quote and this basically means 384 00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:58,700 sovereignty over your personal data, right? 385 00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:00,300 So you should be able to control your data. 386 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:04,400 You should be able to choose who sees what when, you know, this 387 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,300 also has the side effect of controlling privacy privacy, 388 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:08,500 really is just about the shape of information flows, right? 389 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:10,500 And that comes down to a question of access control. 390 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,500 So if you do that at an individual level, then you can 391 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,200 also group it into higher and higher level groups, families. 392 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,200 Companies, larger companies Enterprises cities and even 393 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,300 nation's needs, right? And they're all grappling with 394 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:25,300 this. So if you can give them the 395 00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:29,600 tools to control and shape, the flow of information about them 396 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,200 and about the things around them, then it can lead us 397 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,000 towards where there is not incentive misalignment and in 398 00:20:35,008 --> 00:20:37,800 fact there's incentive alignment where, you know, if they share 399 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,800 more in a healthy way and so on, then they can actually you get 400 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,500 rewarded. And that's really the sort of 401 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:45,700 Build It Up. Vision of ocean is about, you 402 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:49,000 know. Tools for control of your data 403 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,300 at a personal level, all the way up to a national level in a way 404 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,900 that helps to serve data sovereignty. 405 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,200 I think that incentive misalignment is Sookie and I 406 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,800 think a good way to sum it up, right? 407 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,600 If you kind of go up, you go up the stack of this problem and is 408 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,100 kind of fresh in my memory. But like I think the social time 409 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,500 I'm a documentary that I watched earlier this week kind of sums 410 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:15,500 it up pretty well or at least it makes a good attempt at 411 00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,100 explaining it. In layman's terms, social 412 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:21,600 networks platforms who that control large amounts of data 413 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,000 are incentivized to use. While the model that was created 414 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,600 around that data is to sell advertising. 415 00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:30,700 The advertising is sold to companies that want access to 416 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,100 people's information in order to Target those customers more 417 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:37,700 effectively and at the same time the companies that hold the data 418 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:41,000 are incentivized to keep their users on the longest as 419 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,700 possible. Because that's how they maximize 420 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:45,100 profit on the advertising side of that Marketplace. 421 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,500 The way that they achieve that goal of keeping the people on 422 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,600 the platform's, the longest well that goal was somewhat 423 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,700 discovered by Machine learning algorithms. 424 00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:59,500 There's Get out that the best way to keep people on the 425 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:01,600 longest is the show them outrageous shit. 426 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,200 That sends them into, you know, that essentially divides people 427 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,300 that has an effect on, you know, you, we talk about sovereignty, 428 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:11,100 right? You talk about people's 429 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,100 sovereignty. Well, I mean that exists at a 430 00:22:14,108 --> 00:22:17,600 conceptual level the risks. There at a conceptual level is 431 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,200 sovereignty also in a general sense as in the sovereignty of 432 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,100 societies and countries Etc, because people who are divided, 433 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,900 Obviously, our are more vulnerable and at-risk and I 434 00:22:31,908 --> 00:22:35,300 think it's a huge problem that if you get really into the weeds 435 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:38,500 of, it's like, okay, well, incentive alignments are broken 436 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,000 here. Well, you know, is it platforms 437 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,200 or is it simply the model? Is it capitalism? 438 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,600 That's that's broken in this particular model. 439 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,400 It's kind of like a it's sort of a chicken or the egg problem 440 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,200 here, but I wonder if as long as there is sort of unfettered 441 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,000 capitalism and unregulated capitalism If this will ever 442 00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:01,300 change, and if there will be better models, that emerge, of 443 00:23:01,308 --> 00:23:02,800 course. I ocean protocol is one antidote 444 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,300 to that. Yeah, I have a couple answers to 445 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:08,200 that. So, I mean, one thing that 446 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,300 capitalism recognizes that is super unhealthy for any Market 447 00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:16,000 is monopolies, right? So that's why the Sherman 448 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,500 Antitrust law was brought out and then after a couple decades, 449 00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,900 they finally gave a teeth and that's what broke up, the all 450 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,800 the different pieces of Rockefellers Empire for example, 451 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,800 as well as led to the breakup of AT&T Int and so on, we have 452 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,600 companies that are now far larger and more dominant than 453 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,900 basically, you know, the u.s. deals of the world back in the 454 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:37,700 day, yet, the The Regulators have forgotten that they can 455 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,000 actually apply this tool to address this. 456 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,100 And that's, that's an issue. So, this is basically not a, 457 00:23:43,108 --> 00:23:44,500 that's not a problem of capitalism per se. 458 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,900 It's a problem with the enforcement of antitrust. 459 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,100 So that's one piece of the tool. I want to mention the other one, 460 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:55,100 which is to me the happier answer and it's coops. 461 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:58,400 So, I grew up in rural. Out of that, where the local 462 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,600 grocery store was a co-op. It's literally called The Coop. 463 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:03,800 We had those two. They're all closed down. 464 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,600 Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 465 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,300 Well, and the local bank was called the credit union and that 466 00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:11,800 was the main bank where I grew up and, and basically, there was 467 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,900 kind of cool apps for everything and these coops allowed, you 468 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:19,700 know, a thousand, ten thousand people in the area, to each 469 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:24,100 collectively owned, that grocery store for example, and then get 470 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:26,000 the dividends from the grocery store and it was acting in the 471 00:24:26,008 --> 00:24:27,500 best. Insurance to the people and 472 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:28,800 making a bit of profit on the side. 473 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,700 That's a very healthy thing. There's another thing in 474 00:24:30,708 --> 00:24:33,200 Saskatchewan, in fact, at the time, I think was to learn one 475 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,100 of the largest co-ops in the world, if not, the largest 476 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,800 called the Saskatchewan, we pool it. 477 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,300 Had I believe on the order of 100,000 Farmers as members, and 478 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,200 what it was, was collective bargaining performers. 479 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,000 So you sell your wheat and your Burly to the Saskatchewan. 480 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Cool. Then it goes as a large entity, 481 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,700 it ships, things by train to the port's it ships. 482 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:53,800 Things by ship to Asia and everywhere else through the 483 00:24:53,808 --> 00:24:55,900 ports. It does the marketing, etc, etc, 484 00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:57,800 etc. It was a win-win, right? 485 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,600 The farmers basically got some dividends from the Saskatchewan, 486 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,800 we pool, and they had a market for the green. 487 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,000 They had distribution all of this and it served everyone. 488 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,100 So this is actually a capitalist notion, but it's capitalist 489 00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,700 saying cooperation is a good thing, right? 490 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,900 And what I really love about the blockchain space is that it 491 00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,700 makes things like this much easier to implement as well as 492 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:22,900 experiment with right to have, you know, Collective 493 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:26,200 organization of people towards the betterment of that. 494 00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:28,100 Of people write in the form of dowsing. 495 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,600 Otherwise, right. That's my kind of two answers. 496 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,800 I don't think we need to rethink capitalism. 497 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,700 There's been a lot of calls for that, and even if we did need to 498 00:25:35,708 --> 00:25:37,800 rethink, I think it'd be very, very hard the way it is. 499 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,300 But instead we can say, okay on one side make sure that, you 500 00:25:42,308 --> 00:25:45,700 know, antitrust is a respected and you know, the privacy laws 501 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:48,200 of Europe Etc. And another hand double down and 502 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,000 co-ops, right? And I think they could actually 503 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,400 become much more common in this new age, given how much easier 504 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,200 it is to form them. The in the world of blockchain, 505 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,000 you know, like we're seeing for example, the first Venture 506 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,300 Capital firms that are Dows that are actually truly working, 507 00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:05,600 right? I'm a member of medical Ventures 508 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,300 and it's an amazing organism to observe. 509 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,500 So let's talk about ocean, protocols, switch gears a bit 510 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:18,200 and so describe what what is ocean protocol and what does it 511 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,400 try to achieve? Yeah, so I guess the goals are 512 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,600 like, mentioned address, some of the issues around data in 513 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,800 society, misalignment, of incentives, as well as give 514 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,300 tools for empowerment of people at the level of individuals, 515 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,000 families, all the way up to levels of cities and Nations, 516 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,600 right? Okay. 517 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:39,700 And perhaps in the in the context of what we're talking 518 00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:42,500 earlier, in the model, how does ocean sort of flipped the the 519 00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:44,000 model that we were describing earlier? 520 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,000 At the heart of it it's you know your keys your data, right. 521 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,600 And then you can choose how to share that where but also you 522 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,900 can turn this data into an asset if you like right. 523 00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:59,100 Because, you know, the way we view it data is IP just like, 524 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:03,400 you know, if you write a song and record it, then that is a 525 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,900 piece of Ip that you, then you can monetize via music 526 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:09,600 Publishers, Etc, or via Spotify, whatever you want, right? 527 00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:13,400 Same thing with books or podcasts or whatever, so data 528 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,300 falls into that same, Corey and of course, data is useful, in 529 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:21,900 the sense of, you know, people who build AI models need data, 530 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:24,800 in order to make those models accurate, they need more data. 531 00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,400 And once those models are accurate enough, then they can 532 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,200 monetize it. In various ways, you know more, 533 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,900 you know, safer, self-driving cars, more efficient traffic 534 00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:37,000 lights, a lot of kind of all most mundane things. 535 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,700 But the stuff matter is showing so ocean. 536 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,000 Basically, at the heart then is a set of tools to make this 537 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,900 easier to do at the heart. But it's access control. 538 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,300 So basically, it makes it easy for people to establish a data 539 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,700 set or data service, as an asset. 540 00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:57,400 And then to share share that asset or sell it transfer it. 541 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,900 Whatever, where there's permissioning around it and the 542 00:27:59,908 --> 00:28:03,900 way that we do that, as of the most recent release of ocean V3, 543 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,800 the way we do it is every single date of service is its own ear, 544 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,700 C20 data token, and by using that we leverage the full 545 00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:14,600 infrastructure of ethereum. There's a lot of really cool. 546 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,200 Applications and it also serves as you know at the heart, it's 547 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,400 Access Controller, right? So it's sort of like, you know, 548 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,000 socks, you know with you know socks you can buy point one unit 549 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,300 socks, you can buy 150 point three unit socks, but if you 550 00:28:27,308 --> 00:28:30,300 have 1.0 unit socks and send that those to the unit swap 551 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:34,100 team, then they will mail you back in the physical mail, your 552 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:38,400 pair of physical socks and so you are, you can redeem those 553 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,000 unit socks with that pair, same thing with data tokens, you can 554 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,200 send 1.0 data tokens to the publisher of That data asset and 555 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,600 in return, they will give you access to that data asset. 556 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,400 You know, you can still speculate, you can buy point one 557 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,700 data tokens, you can buy 100 of them whatever you want. 558 00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:55,500 But in terms of redeeming getting Access Control, it's 559 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,500 that magic number of 1.0. So that's maybe a good summary. 560 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:02,800 Ocean is a set of tools to enable the web three data 561 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,400 economy which is all about open while reconciling privacy. 562 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,200 You talked about that every data set is an ethereal nerc, 20 563 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,600 token. What is a data set help. 564 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,400 To understand what that means specifically. 565 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,300 So there's it's every day to survive so data services can be 566 00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:23,200 data sets or yeah. So also with a data set though, 567 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,200 it could be some via PDF, it could be a spreadsheet or, you 568 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,200 know, the machine learning version, which is a CSV file. 569 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:34,000 It could be a piece of music, it could be 10 gigabytes worth of 570 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,100 worth of files, but behind a directory. 571 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:40,100 So, in Ocean, we actually have, it's quite General. 572 00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:43,400 So you basically are simply selling a you. 573 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:46,600 Well, we have a A few different ways of defining a data service 574 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,400 and it's flexible and it's going to expand over time to start 575 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,500 with. There are two, one of them is a 576 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:54,700 static URL, where it could be basically say a CSV file that 577 00:29:54,700 --> 00:30:00,100 you have sitting on Google Drive and you then sell access to that 578 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:04,100 CSV file, as defined by that URL sitting on Google Drive and of 579 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:05,700 course you can be a decentralized network as well. 580 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:09,000 So that's one example. The second example of a data 581 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200 service that we support is this is in the Privacy preserving 582 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,400 angle is computer to data. So Rather than someone getting a 583 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,000 URL and then downloading that CSV or whatever, instead it's 584 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,900 saying I'm going, I'm a publisher, maybe I'm a big 585 00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:25,900 Enterprise. I'm going to sell my date my 586 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:27,700 data, but people aren't going to download it. 587 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,000 Rather, they can go and run an algorithm right next to my data. 588 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,200 And maybe just do computer simple average from a particular 589 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,100 column or a median or maybe something, fancier building a 590 00:30:37,108 --> 00:30:39,300 linear model or maybe a fancy deep learning model, whatever, 591 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:42,000 right? So those are the two Services 592 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,900 right now is types of data services that ocean supports And 593 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:48,300 with time, we will support more and more and more streaming data 594 00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:52,800 is coming down the pipe as one of the most important ones. 595 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,500 We see that this thing can get the can be dozens or even 596 00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:57,600 hundreds of these things. So that's what, that's what we 597 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,300 mean. And ocean itself is sufficiently 598 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,400 General. These data tokens their ear, she 599 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,900 20 with one extra field called blob where it's just a string. 600 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,200 Basically, a bunch of information inside, and that 601 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,100 basically helps to support the various types of service 602 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:13,500 provisions. So you mentioned something that 603 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:17,400 I'd like to touch on, you said that the data can be stored on 604 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,500 Google Drive when one thinks of, you know, the decentralized data 605 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:24,100 Marketplace that we wish to have. 606 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,600 I don't think that storing data on like traditional Cloud 607 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,900 platforms is the first thing that comes to mind. 608 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,700 I mean in terms of availability, censorship resistance privacy, 609 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:36,400 Etc. You know, help us understand the 610 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,300 the choice. They're of storing data on these 611 00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:41,600 platforms and what kinds of things. 612 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,900 Is ocean do to prevent some of the excesses that we've been 613 00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:47,800 talking about it since a while ago or well? 614 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,600 I mean, I think of the day you have to be pragmatic about 615 00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:52,900 understanding. You know, what tools people are 616 00:31:52,908 --> 00:31:55,100 using right now and then providing a bridge to them to 617 00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:58,100 sort of you know what? Walk them bit by bit over this 618 00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:00,500 bridge. It's not like you know, you snap 619 00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,100 your fingers and suddenly you're in a full permission list, 620 00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:06,100 decentralized world with the whole planet behind you, right? 621 00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:07,900 I should mention the, as you mentioned open market. 622 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:10,900 So overall ocean is these tools, which is smart contracts as well 623 00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:13,000 as libraries python. In JavaScript libraries, and 624 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,500 then react on top. And then on top of that, we've 625 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,700 shipped something that's a consumer facing web app called 626 00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:21,500 Ocean Market. And it is a place where people 627 00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:23,900 can go market ocean protocol to calm. 628 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,900 It's a place where people can go to publish data assets and to 629 00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:30,700 consume them like, once you buy them and of course, you know 630 00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,300 swap back and forth trade on them and you can even stay clean 631 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:35,700 them and I can get into that a bit later. 632 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,500 So then towards your question, if you think, okay, how do we 633 00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,000 make Ocean Market? Easy to use? 634 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,100 Right for people. It's went through NATO. 635 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:45,700 You know, you sign in basically by connecting your wallet, 636 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:49,500 that's all all that. But for people that aren't 637 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,000 running their own, you know, hosted service with datasets. 638 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,200 How can they actually share their data? 639 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,100 You know, maybe they don't know about file coin or three rooms 640 00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:00,300 warm or anything just yet or don't know how to use it. 641 00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,700 But they do know that they have a bunch of data on Google Drive 642 00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:07,000 or Dropbox or something, right? So you make it easy for them to 643 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,800 publish their data. And you might say, well that's 644 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,800 not decentralized. The thing is, this is at the 645 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,100 very Leaf node. Right? 646 00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:15,000 So it's that one single person that has that data. 647 00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,700 So the the connecting platform is decentralized on that, you 648 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:20,600 know, permissionless of the room substrate as well as smart 649 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,400 contracts on top. But that one final person at the 650 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,300 edge node is is centralized by nature of it being supplied by 651 00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:29,600 that one person, right? So even if you say okay we're 652 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,700 going to organize this and stuff, it doesn't really help 653 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,700 because it's still one person supplying the data or one 654 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,900 entity, right? And that's okay, right? 655 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,300 If they are supplying the data and people don't want it, they 656 00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:40,300 won't buy it if they're supplying the data and they do a 657 00:33:40,308 --> 00:33:42,900 bad job where they have Availability people will stop 658 00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:44,900 buying, right? So they're incentivized to do a 659 00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,400 good job there. And I do see though that, of 660 00:33:47,408 --> 00:33:49,600 course, right? Like right now, people could 661 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:54,100 store something on Google Drive and Dropbox and a few other, you 662 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,300 know, decentralized Services wrap it all up, make those all 663 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,400 pins with ipfs and then just give the ipfs hero, right? 664 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,400 So and that's a nice Bridge ipfs serves as a great bridge because 665 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,600 you can have storage on centralized and decentralized 666 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,300 storage mediums while at the same time, providing that single 667 00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,000 URL. So it's all about a bridge to 668 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,199 get people across Words eventually, this sort of public 669 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:18,199 utility Network infrastructure, where everything is 670 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,400 permissionless, including you know, the cloud storage Etc for 671 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,500 sort of all of humanity, but we have to get there one step at a 672 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:25,699 time. Great. 673 00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:28,600 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good approach to allowing people 674 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,000 on board with more Simplicity, is to open it up to all the 675 00:34:33,007 --> 00:34:36,500 different types of storage providers, that that exists. 676 00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:39,900 And if within that, we also have decentralized stores providers, 677 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,300 like, ipfs or PSI or some of these other ones. 678 00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,699 And, you know, that at least provides Alternatives, so that 679 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,600 we can have that censorship resistance on option if we wish 680 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,199 to choose it. Exactly. 681 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,100 I'm just to add thereto. Like ocean doesn't care because 682 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:55,900 it's just about the URL, right? So people can provide Row, I can 683 00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:59,700 point to a surface oncea or and ipfs, which is wrapping some 684 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,000 other storage service, or a Google drive, or Dropbox 685 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,600 whatever. So ocean doesn't care. 686 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,300 So let's talk about the different stakeholders in Ocean. 687 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,300 So, obviously there's like the owners of the data, those who 688 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:14,100 provide that data point that URL you mentioned. 689 00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:16,700 Then there's also those who verify the data. 690 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,800 There are the curators. Can you describe all of these 691 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,700 different participants, these different stakeholders? 692 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:25,100 And how are, how do they are incentives? 693 00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:28,400 Aligned your to create this, this platform? 694 00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:31,200 Absolutely. So, at the heart of it, you 695 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,200 know, the heart of the value creation is a publisher 696 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,200 publishes. Is a dataset and someone else 697 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,100 comes along and buys a data consumer. 698 00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:41,400 So you want to connect those data, Publishers, 432 consumers, 699 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,800 that's the heart and the data consumer, when they consume it 700 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,700 they're adding value to their business or otherwise, right? 701 00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:50,800 So you want to make sure that that Loop is a solid connection. 702 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:54,900 So, Ocean Market and the other markets that can be created and 703 00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,700 in ideally that business is providing also value to the 704 00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:59,800 publisher, right? It's sort of this closed loop 705 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,300 exactly. Well, this is the thing, right? 706 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:05,300 If data, consumer doesn't, you know, find Data that they buy 707 00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:07,400 from the publisher is garbage. Then they'll just stop buying 708 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,200 from the publisher. So the publisher themself is 709 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,900 incentivized to create quality data, right? 710 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,600 The heart of capitalism frankly right in that way and that's 711 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,300 actually a good thing you know it aligns towards value 712 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:20,000 creation. That way in between is at the 713 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,600 lower level. Of course, the main actor is 714 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,500 simply the the connectivity of ocean at the, you know, 715 00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:29,100 substrate-level if you remain at right now, this more contract 716 00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:32,000 level and then the marketplace is on top. 717 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,600 And, you know, we've shipped the First Market Place ourselves As 718 00:36:34,607 --> 00:36:37,700 as ocean protocol Foundation, which is it's called Ocean 719 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:39,400 Market. I mentioned it, and that's 720 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,900 basically, you know this, you can view it as a multi-sided 721 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:47,200 platform, where the two most critical participants are the 722 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,900 Publishers and the consumers, however, you want to Market to 723 00:36:50,900 --> 00:36:52,900 form, you want price Discovery all of this, right? 724 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,700 And so forth. For Price Discovery, you need 725 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,100 the data services themselves to be sort of assets in a 726 00:37:00,107 --> 00:37:03,900 first-class assets and within within a theorem, of course, you 727 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:04,900 have kind of two. Choices. 728 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,500 You can make them. Non fungible are fungible. 729 00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:08,800 But if you think about data, right? 730 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,600 When I'm a publisher publishing a data set, it's not just like 731 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,100 one person is consumed. You're going to have 10 100 732 00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:17,400 1000, right? So it's clearly like I'm more 733 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,300 fungible thing. So so basically we have these 734 00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:24,500 data tokens that are then there as assets and it's those that 735 00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:26,500 flow from the publisher to Consumer. 736 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:30,000 Now you can say, okay well how does the let's say that the 737 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,100 consumer data consumer is looking at data sets but they 738 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,500 want to have a good feel for Like, what's a good data set? 739 00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:37,900 Force is not, right? This is where curation comes in. 740 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:42,700 So so how do you go about? You know, leveraging crypto 741 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:44,100 infrastructure for good curation. 742 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:47,100 Also, how do you go about leveraging crypto infrastructure 743 00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:48,700 for Price Discovery? Right? 744 00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:50,300 And this is a question, we would get again. 745 00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:54,100 And again, and again in Ocean from, you know, from the very 746 00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:58,800 earliest days 2016, 2017, to until basically shipping V3, 747 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,100 like, how do you set the price? And there's lots of lots of 748 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:02,400 theories about how to do this, right? 749 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,700 You know, you can have auctions, you can Of royalties. 750 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,100 You can have order books. You can have automated market, 751 00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:10,900 makers, etc. Etc. 752 00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:14,800 Right, so what do you do? And we decided with all this, 753 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:20,900 that sort of taking a page from the the D5 Playbook, let's put 754 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:24,400 in an automated Market maker. So when someone goes to publish 755 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,900 their data set, it becomes a data asset, its own token, and 756 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:32,700 then in the same right after that, they have the option to 757 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,100 publish a pool. And so we've got balancer 758 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:37,800 technology under the hood. So they publish a pool that is 759 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,100 the data token and ocean token and they put in an issue of 760 00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:44,600 liquidity of the ocean token and now you actually have an 761 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,600 authentic price signal between basically as a ratio of the 762 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,300 number of data tokens to the number of ocean tokens in there. 763 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,400 Other people can come in there and steak and also people can go 764 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,800 in and swap back and forth. Ocean tokens for data tokens, 765 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,900 people can sneak in and stick to the pool and you know the cool 766 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:04,000 thing about AMS automated market makers. 767 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,800 Adding liquidity being on the credit provider is the same 768 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,100 thing as taking. Right. 769 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,400 This is very different than sort of the previous idea. 770 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,800 I normally staking sort of locks up and slows down the velocity 771 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,800 of tokens. But in a M&M's, the sort of 772 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,800 magical. Beautiful thing happens were by 773 00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:21,700 providing liquidity. It's taking that actually 774 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:23,500 increases the velocity and the usefulness. 775 00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:26,700 So this is actually what ocean Market has another hood is these 776 00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:30,100 balancer pools. And that's providing this, it's 777 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:33,600 basically helping to form this market around this specific data 778 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,300 token, right? Write it in addition, if you 779 00:39:36,308 --> 00:39:40,700 think about it, you know you go to balancer website or the unit 780 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,300 swap website and by default if you want to look at all the 781 00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:47,700 pools, it will sort by which pools have the highest 782 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:51,100 liquidity. That's a really good proxy for 783 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:53,900 the quality of a given token, it's not perfect. 784 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,900 But for sure, you know, all the garbage spam stuff is at the 785 00:39:56,908 --> 00:39:59,000 very very bottom with like two dollars liquidity. 786 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,800 So it's already gone and it's a pretty good first cut, right? 787 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,300 So that's actually also what ocean Itself. 788 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,800 If you think about it, by default, you got Ocean Market. 789 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,700 And it actually shows you a sort of list based on the amount of 790 00:40:10,707 --> 00:40:13,100 liquidity in there. So that's a signal for the 791 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:15,600 quality of a data set. It's really hard to arrive at a 792 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,000 perfect signal for quality of data set. 793 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,600 What you need to do is provide a bunch of Statistics authentic 794 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,500 signals that people can use to assess whether a data set is 795 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:27,100 useful or not useful to consume, but also useful to invest in, 796 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,400 right? And this is a key thing, you 797 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,300 know. So I'm going to mention those 798 00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,000 sort of theirs in terms of the, the stakeholders in the system. 799 00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:36,700 I've talked about About the the foundational ones which is the 800 00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:40,700 the publisher and the consumer data consumer, there is the 801 00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,100 liquidity providers which are the stickers which are the 802 00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:45,600 curators. It's the same thing in Ocean and 803 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,900 implicitly, they're also doing some soft speculation because 804 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,800 right now there's a 70/30. Wait. 805 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,600 So anytime someone steaks and one of these pools, it's 70%, 806 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,800 ocean 30% data token and that's simply because you know, to 807 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,200 avoid price fluctuations in to align incentives or bit better. 808 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,700 But besides that, you know, people can just purely 809 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:04,700 speculative things. Right? 810 00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:06,700 They can invest in a data to look at and hold. 811 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:08,500 If they think that the person who is published the stage 812 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,800 token, is a high-quality person, if they know them. 813 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,200 If they think that, you know, maybe they try out the dataset, 814 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,000 they see it as high quality great, they can buy it and they 815 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,600 can hold it. So, so basically, this is also a 816 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,900 key question in the overall ecosystem. 817 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:24,400 And so at the end, you have the Publishers, the consumers, the 818 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,300 the LPS / curator / takers and the speculators. 819 00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:31,700 And this is sort of the heart of it and then you've got this 820 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:33,400 across many, many, many different data. 821 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,700 Token, / pool. Owls. 822 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,900 And this is basically the, how the markets are forming and 823 00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:39,600 what's happened. You know, we released Ocean 824 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,400 Market with three weeks ago, and it looks like a microcosm of 825 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,800 crypto itself, right? You've got, you know, you've got 826 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,800 people that are doing the equivalent of an IC 0, which is 827 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,400 an ID 0, initial data. Offering the promoting on 828 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,900 Twitter, there are actually announcing the launch of the of 829 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:55,400 it, you know, 24 hours before or week before whatever. 830 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,000 Now and then people Pile in when the thing happens to just to 831 00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:03,300 invest in speculate and so on and at the same time and then 832 00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,200 you have data Schiller's. And you have rug pulls and you 833 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,100 have fraud and all of these things that you have in the 834 00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:11,800 broader crypto ecosystem. But you also then, you know, in 835 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,200 this all this messiness, you have a market for me. 836 00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:18,100 This is how markets are born and so, you know, 2017, yes, there 837 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:20,600 was an I co bubble but this is actually how the broader crypto 838 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,400 Market was born before. That is pretty quiet. 839 00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:24,800 Right? There was a Bitcoin. 840 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,500 There's a theorem there is maybe 10 of the coins, but 2017 after 841 00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:31,100 that happened, you know. Now, we have these indices and 842 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,200 coin market cap and coin gecko that point to something quite 843 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,100 healthy. You know, Plus coins that are 844 00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:38,400 really healthy. So this is what we're seeing in 845 00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:41,300 in the world of data. Now, with these initial data 846 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,600 offerings, IPOs and speculation, all this, you know, data is 847 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,500 truly becoming an asset for the first time ever and it's fully 848 00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:50,600 open just like defy, right? That's really interesting. 849 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,200 The data tokens, represent specific datasets. 850 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,100 So there's there's a data token for each data set. 851 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,600 Correct for a data service which is typically one dataset but it 852 00:43:01,607 --> 00:43:03,600 could be a local, right? But it's whatever granularity 853 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,100 the publisher decides. Yeah, okay, I see. 854 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,500 And so, that's how you arrived. So, there's a little quiddity 855 00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:11,100 pool. Essentially like an amm for for 856 00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,900 each of these data services. That's how you arrived at Price 857 00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:18,100 Discovery for that specific data service and the data set or data 858 00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:20,300 sets that exist within it. Exactly. 859 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:21,400 Exactly. And then, yeah. 860 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,800 And I mean, it's that's the primary market, right? 861 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,300 So when the publisher publishes, they deploy this pool, that's 862 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,600 the primary Market but then people, if they want, they can 863 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,000 set up secondary markets to. So we've seen people creating, 864 00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:34,600 you know, a pool side by side and selling, you know, OTC did 865 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,300 it tokens and stuff, right? Which is great. 866 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,500 So, and as time goes on, you know, there's going to be some 867 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,500 like large-cap data to data tokens. 868 00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:42,300 Right? Right now, you know, it's all 869 00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,900 relatively small. It may be traded on exchanges. 870 00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:45,800 Yeah, exactly. Right. 871 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,100 So we're in early days but already, you know, in the last 872 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:52,200 three weeks, we're at about 2 million ocean staked which 873 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,200 according to the price is right now it's about 1 million euros 874 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,000 worth of worth of data assets. Ticked. 875 00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:00,200 So you know it's early days but that's quite exciting. 876 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,600 And we're Ocean Market usage keeps growing growing growing. 877 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,600 So The most recent numbers are about 10,000 weekly, active 878 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,400 users. So I think that's that's the 879 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:12,800 number. Yeah, things are just growing 880 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,300 growing growing. And right now our challenge is 881 00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:17,400 to adjust simply the scale issues as well as make sure that 882 00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:20,600 the environment is as safe as possible to mitigate the effect 883 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,500 of rug bowls and, and fraud and so on. 884 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,300 Yeah, well, we'll get back to the scale in one second. 885 00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:29,600 So, this ocean Market that you mentioned is the first I presume 886 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,300 the only market for the moment. Do you anticipate other markets, 887 00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,800 forming, and what? What kinds of specificities 888 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,700 could those have? What are the types of things 889 00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:41,600 that would cause that to happen? Yeah absolutely. 890 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,100 So we want to see a lot of them right you can't have any 891 00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,300 economy. I data economy with just one 892 00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:49,900 marketplace, right? You need to have tens hundreds. 893 00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:51,400 Thousands of these things, right? 894 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,400 And so Ocean Market code itself is fully open, right? 895 00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:58,500 Apache 2 license. So basically very unrestrictive 896 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:04,100 very open to use and so we do encourage that and we even have 897 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:06,600 We pointed to people live, how they can do that, you know, 898 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,600 Forks of Ocean Market or create their own thing. 899 00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:11,500 And under the hood, of course, everything is on a to remain 900 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:13,700 net, including them edited at all of that, right? 901 00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:15,300 So, it's very easy. Anyone, spinning up another 902 00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:19,100 Marketplace, can basically get have all the data assets that 903 00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:20,800 are on Ocean Market on their Marketplace. 904 00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:24,300 So how is this happening? We view it as sort of a top-down 905 00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:27,400 and a bottom-up thing. So top-down we're working with a 906 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,100 few different organizations that are interested in building on 907 00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:33,300 things. So, for the better part of a 908 00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:36,300 year, we've been working with Euler and around their own 909 00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:39,700 Automotive data, Exchange Market Place, still had your old 910 00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:40,900 Enterprise clients. I see. 911 00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:43,700 Yeah, I mean, you know, these are long-term relationships and 912 00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:46,200 whatnot, and it's kind of exciting, right? 913 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,100 Things have changed a lot in the last few years, where 914 00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:50,700 Enterprises are much more open and comfortable this so. 915 00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,700 So we're pretty happy with that and there's some other basically 916 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,600 government organizations and went out that we're working with 917 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,400 two that we haven't publicly announced yet but it's some of 918 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,400 the information is already out there. 919 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,900 I guess in addition to that there's sort of Apps that have 920 00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,900 publicly announced that they wanted to have ocean power due 921 00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:12,500 to markets, such as molecule boson protocol deck straight and 922 00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:14,300 otherwise. And each of these has their own 923 00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:15,600 sort of specific vertical, right? 924 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,600 So decks rate for example, is in the logistics area where it's 925 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,700 about data that for example their customers, they have about 926 00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:28,200 10,000 trucking companies working with them and he's 927 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,300 trucking company has one or a few trucks and you know what is 928 00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:33,600 the specific location of each of these trucks over time? 929 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,100 What are the goods and Side each of these trucks and right now, 930 00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:38,900 all that data is private but it's that that information is 931 00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:42,300 super, super useful to in two ways, one of them is to Wall 932 00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:44,100 Street, right? So, rather than having to look 933 00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:45,900 at satellite images, you can get much more fine-grained 934 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:49,300 information, but secondly, to optimizing the scheduling of the 935 00:46:49,308 --> 00:46:53,000 trucking themselves, right? So you can do basically better 936 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,800 more optimized Logistics over time and right now the average 937 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,700 truck according to Stats, I think it's other one-third or 938 00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:01,800 two-thirds empty because just the optimization is so poor. 939 00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,800 So once it starts to be a market formed around the It on this 940 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,800 then you can actually optimize against it better better better. 941 00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,700 So those are a few there. But over time, we see that 942 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:12,000 there's going to be Market places that specialize along a 943 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,600 few Dimensions. One is verticals. 944 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,400 Like, I've mentioned Right Automotive like Daimler or 945 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,600 Logistics like Dex rate other dimensions are maybe you'll have 946 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,300 a Marketplace that's totally tuned to a I right training. 947 00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:28,200 AI models and and they can be variance of that like human 948 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,000 protocol who were working with as well. 949 00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,900 You know, they do sort of the H caption which is sort of a 950 00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:36,400 variant of recapture that is Basically much more incentive, 951 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,900 the line with the users basically. 952 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,600 So there's opportunities with the H captures of the world, the 953 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,100 human Protocols of the world and other AI plays to out there 954 00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:47,300 where it's just sort of a win-win and other things too, 955 00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:50,300 like privacy first marketplaces or a specific geographic 956 00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:52,500 regions. And remember like you with a 957 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:54,300 Marketplace, you have to have a terms of service. 958 00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:55,900 It's sort of a Last Mile face something. 959 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,800 So certain countries might have very specific regulations that 960 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,000 you want to serve. So maybe you focus on just that 961 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,100 country and maybe even Geo block everyone. 962 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:07,300 As you as that Marketplace. And that's okay, right? 963 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,400 You know, we can't control things at the level of the 964 00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,600 substrate, you know, permissionless, etherium all 965 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,000 that, or this more contract, but that last mile, of course, 966 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,100 things can be controlled by the the marketplace operator and 967 00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:20,900 that will actually help to serve specific niches. 968 00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:22,500 So, there's quite a lot of variety there. 969 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,500 Oh, I guess one more important one is besides, you know, the 970 00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,400 publishing and consuming of the data assets. 971 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:29,900 How do you price? Right? 972 00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:34,200 So by default we have these balance your pools but you can 973 00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:36,700 Also, you know, make it maybe some people want to have units 974 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:39,200 while pools or bank or otherwise. 975 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,200 Maybe people want to have order book based markets, or Dutch 976 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,900 auctions. Maybe you want to have a 977 00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:46,500 Marketplace, that does a better job of initial data offerings 978 00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:48,600 ideas, right? Just like, if you think about 979 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,800 ico's, that's all these variants that people had, you know. 980 00:48:50,900 --> 00:48:54,700 And in that case for even to write Dutch auctions, etc, etc. 981 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,600 We can see the same thing for data sets. 982 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,700 So there's a huge variety and we encourage people to play with 983 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,400 all of us. Yeah, the the captcha thing is, 984 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,000 I think is one of the things that people don't realize to 985 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,100 what, which point their incentives are misaligned there. 986 00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:14,200 Where there is an incentive misalignment there. 987 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,200 And actually, so you mentioned H captcha and I I've seen H 988 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,900 captcha before and I'm just on the website and I had no idea 989 00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:24,700 that, you know, that sort of Brendan eich was behind this and 990 00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:29,400 that they're built on on a theorem apparently or like The 991 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,400 Leverage etherium. This is interesting. 992 00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:32,700 I'll have to look more into this. 993 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:34,600 Yeah. They're, they're probably like 994 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:39,000 the most used app that no one's heard of right and, you know, 995 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,700 the people behind it. Yeah, it's an amazing team. 996 00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:43,200 I believe Brendan eich isn't directly involved. 997 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,900 He's just an investor or something like that or but also 998 00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:47,900 helping to support it, but he's definitely a he's involved in 999 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:50,200 some way, I guess. Yeah, yeah. 1000 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,700 I was I was confronted with this recently where at least here in 1001 00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:58,200 France to in order to use certain Public Services you're 1002 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,300 obligated to to fill in a Google recaptcha. 1003 00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:05,200 And, you know, in French culture and probably also in Germany 1004 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,400 would probably be like similar sentiment to this. 1005 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,400 If people knew that in order to access Public Services, they 1006 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,100 were obligated to enrich a gaffa, like what we call in 1007 00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:17,800 French Agatha, you know, the Google Amazon Facebook, and 1008 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,100 apple Etc. I think there was there would be 1009 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,300 some outrage at least that idea and maybe we can unpack this 1010 00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:27,100 because it's a nice example. So, you know, when you fill in a 1011 00:50:27,107 --> 00:50:29,500 recaptcha, there's usually two in a row that you do. 1012 00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:32,600 The first one is to basically. By whether or not you're human. 1013 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,600 And the second one is basically Google hasn't yet classified 1014 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,300 weather, which picture has a truck and it or not which 1015 00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:41,800 precludes a car not, right? And you're basically providing 1016 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,200 labels for it basically, with to help train, the algorithms 1017 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,600 because the algorithm needs to make this mapping of right of 1018 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,300 image 2, yes or no, there's a truck in it, right? 1019 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,100 And so you're supplying data for training and that's, you know, 1020 00:50:54,100 --> 00:50:56,800 hugely useful to Google for its other applications. 1021 00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,300 So, you know, you think that, you know, you just need to get 1022 00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:02,200 into the site. But Google itself, I think 99% 1023 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,400 of people don't know this. Yeah I think 90% people are 1024 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,200 totally unaware and actually I was unaware of this until 1025 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,400 recently. In fact I was unaware that the 1026 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,700 previous captures that we had before which were just a feeling 1027 00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:16,500 these letters or write. This word was also operated by 1028 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,400 my, most of them were operated by Google and was to train their 1029 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,900 book scanning algorithms. So yeah. 1030 00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:25,400 So to summarize that right? So basically in doing that, 1031 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,700 second step you are giving value to Google by your human efforts, 1032 00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:31,400 right? But what if instead of that 1033 00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:34,400 Going to Google that value is going to the person running the 1034 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,500 website and to the holders of a token and even maybe back to you 1035 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,900 directly, right? And that's what human protocols 1036 00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:43,800 about, right? The website now can monetize. 1037 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,500 Actually from this, they don't even need to serve ads anymore. 1038 00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:49,500 They just monetize based on people filling out the, you 1039 00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:52,000 know, proving an Autobot right, which is pretty cool. 1040 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:54,500 And then also though, you know they're going towards having 1041 00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:56,900 their token and stuff. And so there can be a nice 1042 00:51:56,900 --> 00:51:59,600 alignment there for the people who believe in this and finally, 1043 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,500 you know, maybe at some point also Go back to the person that 1044 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:04,800 is proving the not about in the first place, right? 1045 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:08,700 So to me, it's a great use case. I don't know why, but this kind 1046 00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:13,400 of a tangent, but like I have been just bombarded with with 1047 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,100 recaptures recently, and I don't know if it's cause my IP address 1048 00:52:16,100 --> 00:52:18,800 is flagged or something, but I'll have to do 10 or 12 1049 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,900 attempts before. I can actually access a website 1050 00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:26,000 and it's, it's so painstaking, I think captures, there's part of 1051 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,900 a reason for it and that is basically the AEI models have 1052 00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:30,100 gotten better over the years, right? 1053 00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:31,900 So they're running out of See stuff. 1054 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,900 So, they're basically getting you to do the hard stuff because 1055 00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:37,100 the easy stuff is already been modeled, right? 1056 00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:39,500 I think it might have to do with the fact that I'm filling in so 1057 00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:41,900 many capsules that maybe they think I'm some kind of a captcha 1058 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:46,400 feel like bought or like you know someone in some Faraway 1059 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,800 country filling in capsules for pennies. 1060 00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:50,900 That could be it too. Yeah. 1061 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,800 So let's talk about, you know, privacy, which is so Central to 1062 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,800 this entire topic. Well, I guess my first question 1063 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,300 is, what types of Compatibility or compliance. 1064 00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:09,100 Does ocean have with regulations like gdpr or the the CCPA and 1065 00:53:09,100 --> 00:53:13,300 California ocean serves these regulations very well. 1066 00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:19,100 So in GDP are for example, there's this idea that certain 1067 00:53:19,100 --> 00:53:21,100 sensitive data can never leave European soil. 1068 00:53:21,100 --> 00:53:22,900 If it's generated on European soil, right? 1069 00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:28,200 Like Medical Data yet if I'm a medical researcher and say USA, 1070 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,000 the ideal is that I have data across You know, 10,000 1071 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,500 hospitals, across Germany, and France, and all of Europe as 1072 00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:38,000 well as China, and Australia, and so on, right? 1073 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,300 So how do I get access to this data with gdpr? 1074 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,400 It would be basically. Well, the traditional way was 1075 00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:48,000 where you basically try to make deals with hospital by hospital 1076 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,800 at a time and stir it all in one, big Central database and 1077 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,100 then build a model from that. And actually Google had 1078 00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:55,800 something called project Nightingale doing this. 1079 00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:58,700 And they had a huge pushback and rightly so right because like 1080 00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:02,000 Medical Data, super sensitive and actually There's other ones 1081 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,200 who like other big organizations that we're trying similar 1082 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,200 approaches and that's really like a big No-No. 1083 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,600 Fortunately, there are better ways to approach this. 1084 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,600 And so when I think about privacy the best way is it's not 1085 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,900 about like either. It's not a black-and-white of, I 1086 00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:20,800 see my data, anyone else can, that's not very useful, it's 1087 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,800 more like structuring the flow of data, you know, who can see 1088 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,500 what when right. And that comes down to 1089 00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:28,400 permission, right? Giving permissions to people 1090 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,700 over Volcom, permissions to people to see certain data. 1091 00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:34,100 Data services. So, so that's the heart of 1092 00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:36,000 privacy. Now going back to this example 1093 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,800 from Health. What you can do is if you're 1094 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,300 trying to build any a model, why not do something like Federated 1095 00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:46,000 learning, where in Federated learning you create an initial 1096 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,800 random AI model, neural, network, whatever. 1097 00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:50,900 And then it's just random at first is super stupid, but then 1098 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,200 it goes and it sort of as this bought, it kind of walks to the 1099 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,400 first hospital. Let's say a hospital here in 1100 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,200 Berlin, Germany, and it updates itself based on the data in the 1101 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,200 Germany. So now, instead of, you know, 1102 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,800 fifty percent error like, you know, basically random, it's got 1103 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,500 40 percent error, right. And then it goes to another 1104 00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:13,000 hospital, let's say in Paris and it updates itself and now it's 1105 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,000 got three percent error. And by the way, the whole model 1106 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,400 doesn't have to go to the hospital, it's just an update of 1107 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,700 the model so you don't have an attack Vector there and then you 1108 00:55:21,707 --> 00:55:26,700 go to another hospital in say Lyon France, you keep going 1109 00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:28,600 going going from hospital to hospital hospital. 1110 00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:30,900 And the error keeps going down down, down, down down. 1111 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:33,500 So once If you went across 10,000 different hospitals, 1112 00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:36,600 you've got a very accurate model, but what's cool is the 1113 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,200 data inside each Hospital, never ever left the hospital, right? 1114 00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:42,700 You know, people have been developing these techniques for 1115 00:55:42,700 --> 00:55:47,000 Federated learning, going back to 2015 2016 and Google started 1116 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,600 making it really popular and famous and sort of 2017 era. 1117 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,800 The thing is Google's version of it is. 1118 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,500 Yes, the data itself can stay at the leaf nodes at the edges, but 1119 00:55:56,500 --> 00:55:58,500 guess who gets to play the middleman Google? 1120 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:00,500 Right, so a problem. Once again, you've got leakage 1121 00:56:00,500 --> 00:56:01,100 there. So what? 1122 00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:04,400 Could actually have a middleman that is, you know, not incentive 1123 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,800 misaligned that can still help to coordinate all of the, this 1124 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,600 learning of this model. And that's really where ocean 1125 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,700 can really help. So, basically, what you're doing 1126 00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:16,900 is you can learn your basically, do the training weight updates, 1127 00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:20,000 Etc. At the last mile at the edge, as 1128 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,500 well as the orchestration in between can be done using 1129 00:56:24,500 --> 00:56:28,000 decentralized substrates, but and ocean basically can play a 1130 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,500 key role in this because it's hell, you know, these data 1131 00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:34,000 tokens are providing the access control of, you know, who can 1132 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,800 see what data sets one, right? And so, that's kind of the dream 1133 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,700 right now. No one has built this particular 1134 00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:43,600 application of ocean with Federated learning. 1135 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,300 But, you know, there's some really great efforts around this 1136 00:56:46,300 --> 00:56:47,800 in a fully open Way. Open mind. 1137 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,700 It's a project out of the UK led by Andrew Trask, an amazing 1138 00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:52,400 person. And, you know, this is kind of 1139 00:56:52,408 --> 00:56:56,600 where they're headed and we hope to see an integration of 1140 00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,400 open-minded ocean at some point. And this talks are on that stuff 1141 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,100 too. So I think, you know, that's 1142 00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:04,100 Example, and you can do this in a simpler way to you don't even 1143 00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:07,000 need to get fancy with building a model. 1144 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,900 It could be Simply Computing an average across 10, different are 1145 00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:12,300 10,000 different hospitals, right? 1146 00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:14,600 So and that's very, very useful, you know, if you're a 1147 00:57:14,607 --> 00:57:17,400 multinational Enterprise and the data can't leave any one of your 1148 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:20,500 offices, then you can compute an average across each or in 1149 00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:22,100 Canada, right? Can it actually has this problem 1150 00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:25,000 to the trying to get Health Data from the different provinces? 1151 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,800 But if you each province, has its own rules and so if you sort 1152 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,500 of take the intersection of the rules, From all the different 1153 00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:35,100 provinces of Canada. You end up with an empty set is 1154 00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:39,600 0 the rules, don't the rules Collide so a very nice solution 1155 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,100 to this is something like this you know Federated analytics for 1156 00:57:42,100 --> 00:57:44,400 just averages or Federated learning to get a bit fancier 1157 00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:46,800 and that plays well with GDP are basically right. 1158 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,500 Because then the data is never ever leaves the soil. 1159 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,600 So, how does ocean address permissioning of data as it's 1160 00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:58,000 utilized and transformed? And I don't know if this is the 1161 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,100 right way to think about this. But I imagine, you know, data 1162 00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:05,600 being used to train a model and and then, you know, then I kind 1163 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,100 of lose track of like how that data exists. 1164 00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:13,100 Like it went for man exists and in the context of GDP are or 1165 00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:17,300 other regulations like it if the you know the owners of that data 1166 00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:21,700 still have rights too The results of the computations that 1167 00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:25,000 were performed on that data. You know, essentially can one 1168 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,300 retrieve the data. Once it's baked in does that 1169 00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:30,600 even matter and is this something we should be concerned 1170 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,100 about I'd scale perhaps more than just an individual level. 1171 00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:36,900 Yeah, so I think there's two pieces here to unpack, this one 1172 00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:39,600 of them is, you know, what about where they're sort of this 1173 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,300 pipeline of, you know, data being transformed, being 1174 00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:45,700 transformed, being transformed and the other is, you know, what 1175 00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:47,500 are the rights that would attach to that. 1176 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,600 So, you know, in a way I can Pure pipeline. 1177 00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:53,400 You might have, you know, some initial raw training data, and 1178 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,100 then it might get cleaned. So then now you have clean raw 1179 00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:59,700 training data and then it might, you might train your am model 1180 00:58:59,900 --> 00:59:02,100 and then you'll have your trained, am model and that's a 1181 00:59:02,107 --> 00:59:05,000 piece of data as well. And then you might have some new 1182 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,100 data coming into that, you want to get it to predict on and it 1183 00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:10,400 makes predictions and those predictions that themselves are 1184 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,000 also data. So, we've got data at various 1185 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,900 steps along the flow. Each one of those is its own 1186 00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:19,400 data asset, right? It can be its own data token. 1187 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,100 If you It's you don't have to it. 1188 00:59:21,100 --> 00:59:23,700 Depends on, you know what works for you want, but with ocean 1189 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,400 ocean, doesn't care, right? If it's the super rod Training 1190 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,500 Day at the very beginning or whether it's some predictions at 1191 00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:32,300 the very tail end or something in between, right, it really 1192 00:59:32,300 --> 00:59:34,500 doesn't care if you do want to have it. 1193 00:59:34,500 --> 00:59:37,800 Every step along the at every step along, the way that 1194 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,000 actually probably helps towards Providence of the data, right? 1195 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,100 So with GDP are and all that. You actually, one of the 1196 00:59:44,100 --> 00:59:46,600 requirements is, you need to know where the data came from, 1197 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:47,900 right? So that it wasn't. 1198 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,800 So this actually ocean really Oops, that way because then you 1199 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,000 can have data that is trained in a way where, you know, where the 1200 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,500 raw data came from and you can kind of vote for and stuff, 1201 00:59:58,500 --> 00:59:59,700 right? And that's a big problem even 1202 00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:02,800 pre gdpr days and stuff, right? But this will actually help you 1203 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,200 address that but now you actually have the provenance of 1204 01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:08,000 of each temple on the way to the tail. 1205 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,700 End of you know the you know you probably don't have the initial 1206 01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:15,100 run clean data provenance of a clean training data provenance 1207 01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:18,600 of the trained model and Providence of the the final 1208 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:19,600 predictions and those predictions. 1209 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,300 Probably have many sets of those over time. 1210 01:00:21,700 --> 01:00:26,700 So that's, you know, helpful for gdpr and just as an asset in 1211 01:00:26,707 --> 01:00:28,100 general, right? It helps to drive the value of 1212 01:00:28,107 --> 01:00:30,500 the asset just like, like a scribe days, right? 1213 01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:34,800 It described, you know, we were doing digital art and the value 1214 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,500 of an artwork is only as good as its provenance, right? 1215 01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:40,200 If I had a painting that and I claimed it to be by Leonardo da 1216 01:00:40,207 --> 01:00:42,000 Vinci. Well, people will say, well 1217 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,000 prove it right, like show me the lineage of ownership, right? 1218 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,700 And if I was able to show that then you know I could have a 1219 01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:51,700 fortune in my hands. But if I can't show that then 1220 01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:54,500 it's probably worth zero. Although there can be some Arts 1221 01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:58,500 experts to come along and try to verify it and it's often kind of 1222 01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:00,900 fuzzy there's you know even a fraud market around just that 1223 01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:02,900 right. But the point is profit 1224 01:01:02,900 --> 01:01:04,000 Providence really really matters. 1225 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,300 And you know what a scribe had done was established Providence 1226 01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:10,000 for for digital art and that helps to establish the value of 1227 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,400 the piece in a big way. And for data it's also super 1228 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,300 helpful, right? Because we'll have you know, 1229 01:01:15,308 --> 01:01:18,700 much better sort of culture around provenance of data and 1230 01:01:18,700 --> 01:01:20,800 models that are trained. And so That will actually lead 1231 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,800 make it a lot easier to comply with gdpr and so on. 1232 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,100 So that's on the sort of the one part. 1233 01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:29,600 The second part, I'll be quick on this is the right. 1234 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:36,000 So basically, we view data as IP and and specifically as 1235 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,500 copyright, if you have sweat off the brow to generate this data, 1236 01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:42,100 then this is actually your copyrighted data as an 1237 01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:44,500 individual, or as an organization. 1238 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,400 And so with that, then you can do whatever you want with it. 1239 01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,900 But the way that In sets it up is Ocean Market specifically 1240 01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:54,200 because you know, the lower levels, don't care. 1241 01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,900 But Ocean Market it has a terms of service that we thought 1242 01:01:56,900 --> 01:01:59,100 through and even Drew on from our scribe days and so on of 1243 01:01:59,107 --> 01:02:01,900 course which in turn draws on things from like second life and 1244 01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:06,100 otherwise we in that terms of and conditions, it basically 1245 01:02:06,100 --> 01:02:09,800 says you are claiming that you have copyright or at least the 1246 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,900 rights to this data initially and then when the next person 1247 01:02:14,100 --> 01:02:17,500 buys it from you, they are getting rights to basically it's 1248 01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:20,400 sort of like a license, right? His relations. 1249 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,000 And then you have some place in some place installations are 1250 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,900 going along. But it could be where, you know, 1251 01:02:24,908 --> 01:02:28,500 if you want you can have those of the ocean Mark distance work. 1252 01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:31,300 That's right now. But what we envision is that you 1253 01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:35,300 can have licenses that are more restrictive and towards re using 1254 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,400 data in various ways. And this kind of goes in the 1255 01:02:38,408 --> 01:02:43,600 realm of remix rights, right? Like you know when an artist say 1256 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:48,500 a DJ does a remix of a song created by Sarah requisition 1257 01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:50,700 then they they have to get a license from their 1258 01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:53,600 recommendation to get to do the remix and probably the 1259 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,400 requisition will get a cut of the royalties at the end as 1260 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,600 well, right? So it's similar thing here, 1261 01:02:57,700 --> 01:03:00,300 where there needs to be some sort of legal agreement, between 1262 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,600 the original creator of that work or the exclusive owner of 1263 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,200 that, that piece of Ip and the sub licensure for the remix 1264 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,600 rights. And we'll see how this forms. 1265 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,300 We see that, you know, cryptos a funny thing. 1266 01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:14,200 There are sort of the fall of the law to the letter of the 1267 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:15,300 law. Eccentric Setter etcetera, 1268 01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:17,000 approach. And there's also the sort of 1269 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,600 more wild Westy approach that some people prefer to follow. 1270 01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:22,600 Given that you already have a lot more protection built into 1271 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,700 the blocking itself. So how much do you need to 1272 01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:27,600 leverage existing IP laws and we don't have a good answer to 1273 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:28,400 this. We don't know how it's going to 1274 01:03:28,408 --> 01:03:29,900 play out. So we kind of support both. 1275 01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:33,200 Yeah, I know, I know you guys have spent a lot of time 1276 01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,400 thinking about this and these conversations were happening in, 1277 01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:41,900 even in the days of ipd be and how I pdb could be compliant 1278 01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:45,500 with gdpr and there's been a lot of thought and so I'm like, I 1279 01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:48,900 trust that that you guys have found suitable solutions to 1280 01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:51,500 these problems. One of the things we haven't 1281 01:03:51,500 --> 01:03:56,400 really talked about very much is the fact that, so, the previous 1282 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,500 version we're now, of course, in V3 of ocean, the previous 1283 01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:03,300 version was It as an etherium side chain and you mentioned 1284 01:04:03,300 --> 01:04:07,200 before the show that you're now on the ethereum main net. 1285 01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,300 Can you describe how that works? So we haven't really talked 1286 01:04:10,300 --> 01:04:11,900 about the smart contract and when it does. 1287 01:04:11,900 --> 01:04:14,700 Exactly. And then look what actually does 1288 01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:18,200 exist on the main chain explain for our listeners. 1289 01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:19,700 What that looks like sure happy to. 1290 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,800 And you know the reason we initially did the POA sidechain 1291 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:28,400 was we saw that we would run into scale issues and the V 1 V 1292 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,100 2 versions of ocean. We're pretty. 1293 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,900 Located. So we actually had even run 1294 01:04:32,900 --> 01:04:34,600 tests to deploy to a theorem a net. 1295 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:39,100 And it was super painful. Frankly, it took you know, days 1296 01:04:39,100 --> 01:04:40,400 for the first successful deployment. 1297 01:04:40,700 --> 01:04:42,700 And this is just simply because of the sheer complexity of the 1298 01:04:42,707 --> 01:04:46,100 contract with her V3. We said, let's change the mental 1299 01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:50,000 model where, instead of having our sort of own custom access 1300 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,600 control for contracts, that's put that into the context of 1301 01:04:54,900 --> 01:04:58,200 your C20 and then we can leverage all the infrastructure 1302 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,100 of your C20 directly, right? Just like I mentioned before 1303 01:05:01,100 --> 01:05:02,400 with an allergy to unisex etcetera. 1304 01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:07,500 So that's what the heart of the mental model for ocean is is you 1305 01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:10,600 know, you have access to a given data asset. 1306 01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:14,200 You have custody of this access if you have 1.0 data tokens and 1307 01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,800 then you can redeem that if you send the data 1.0 ninja tokens 1308 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,700 to the publisher. And so that's the heart of it 1309 01:05:20,700 --> 01:05:22,700 and that allowed us to simplify ocean a lot. 1310 01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:26,000 So it's, you know, radically simpler than before and also 1311 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,200 simpler conceptually to deal with much more interoperable and 1312 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,300 so on, right metal mask Traditionally a crypto wallet is 1313 01:05:31,300 --> 01:05:34,100 now a data wallet. Right treasure is now a hardware 1314 01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:37,400 data wallet, right? Balancer and Yuna swap are not 1315 01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,400 only dex's they are now data exchanges. 1316 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:44,700 Right Aragon and Dallas Jack are now data data douse, right? 1317 01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:48,100 So this is all possible and we can have, you know, stable coins 1318 01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:50,000 Based on data assets. This is all possible simply 1319 01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:52,900 because of the ear T20 root. So that's kind of the heart of 1320 01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:55,000 it. The mental model of data tokens 1321 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,900 as access control, and so what it looks like in the theorem, 1322 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,500 there's Basically three main groups of contracts and they're 1323 01:06:02,500 --> 01:06:05,100 quite simple. One of them is a factory to 1324 01:06:05,500 --> 01:06:09,500 publish your T20 data to them. And so we have a template for a 1325 01:06:09,508 --> 01:06:12,500 new C20 data token. And I guess I mentioned before. 1326 01:06:12,500 --> 01:06:15,500 It's, it's actually simply the open Zeppelin you, she 20 1327 01:06:15,500 --> 01:06:19,900 template, plus this extra field called blob, and that allows a 1328 01:06:19,900 --> 01:06:23,500 lot of flexibility in terms of new source of data services, and 1329 01:06:23,500 --> 01:06:27,100 to save gas costs. Rather than like be the reason 1330 01:06:27,100 --> 01:06:29,000 we have the template rather than just doing it from a librarian 1331 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,700 stuff, is to make Simpler to deploy and also to save gas 1332 01:06:31,700 --> 01:06:38,100 costs were using ESP 1167 proxy contract approach such that it's 1333 01:06:38,100 --> 01:06:39,300 just much much cheaper to deploy. 1334 01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:42,600 So that's the first part. The second part is the balancer 1335 01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,600 pools and once again, you know, we're close with a balancer 1336 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,700 guys. I've been an advisor to them for 1337 01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:53,400 a couple years now and we at the same time we did not use the 1338 01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,500 balancer contracts that are deployed to a three-minute 1339 01:06:56,500 --> 01:06:58,500 directly and the reason is gas costs as well. 1340 01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:02,000 It's okay for someone Who, you know, wants to create a pool of 1341 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,000 beef and say ocean with you know millions in the quiddity OR eith 1342 01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,700 and die with tens of billions in the quiddity, whatever, right. 1343 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:11,800 But if you just got a data token where it's much more long tail, 1344 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,200 asset of, you know, a hundred bucks, 1,000 bucks liquidity. 1345 01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:19,100 Then are you willing to spend the gas phase of $50, $55, 1346 01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:23,100 whatever, the the gas prices are just to deploy that and it's 1347 01:07:23,100 --> 01:07:25,200 much more of a stretch. So we said you know what? 1348 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,700 Let's also do a friendly Fork of the balancer contract. 1349 01:07:29,700 --> 01:07:31,800 So Pull and so on and the factory. 1350 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,800 So they've got a factory with plus a template and have it also 1351 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,900 follow this EIP, 1167 proxy contract pattern. 1352 01:07:39,100 --> 01:07:40,900 So we have that as well. So that's the second part. 1353 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,100 So we've basically got a factory in template for data tokens, a 1354 01:07:44,107 --> 01:07:45,900 factory in template for balance or pools. 1355 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:48,300 And the third thing is simply just for metadata. 1356 01:07:48,300 --> 01:07:51,200 It's a very simple thing. It's a simple contract DDO dots 1357 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,400 all. And with it you have basically, 1358 01:07:55,400 --> 01:08:00,700 if you are the publisher of a given data token then, You have 1359 01:08:00,700 --> 01:08:04,100 a slot in that particular smart contract where you can write the 1360 01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:07,600 metadata and, and update it. And the metadata is things like, 1361 01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,500 you know, name of the publisher description which can be pretty 1362 01:08:10,500 --> 01:08:14,300 long and a few other fields. So so those are the basically, 1363 01:08:14,300 --> 01:08:17,200 the three main things and they're all simple on purpose. 1364 01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:20,000 And from that, right? It's sort of in the stack, we 1365 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,200 have a piece of software called provider which does the 1366 01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,300 handshaking for the publisher to to receive the tokens. 1367 01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:28,899 And to give access, we also have another piece of software called 1368 01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:32,000 Aquarius. Us, which is basically a 1369 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:35,200 metadata cash to make it easy for the ocean Market to sort of 1370 01:08:35,207 --> 01:08:37,200 the data without having to retrieve it, directly from lunch 1371 01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,600 and all the time. So that's the components, simple 1372 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,300 on purpose and even as time goes on hopefully will Templar 1373 01:08:44,700 --> 01:08:47,300 Obviously, you've been working on Ocean for some time. 1374 01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:52,100 And since you began this, this project like other blockchains 1375 01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:56,200 have come along the way that perhaps offer more scalability 1376 01:08:56,399 --> 01:09:00,800 than, you know, like the V1 etherium, have you considered 1377 01:09:01,100 --> 01:09:04,600 building ocean like separate, instance, of ocean on other 1378 01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,899 block, chains, or perhaps, at some point, porting it to like 1379 01:09:07,899 --> 01:09:10,000 something like Solana for example, where there's like very 1380 01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,300 high throughput? What that additional scalability 1381 01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,800 Provide ocean that it does perhaps doesn't have today. 1382 01:09:17,100 --> 01:09:18,800 Yeah, absolutely. We thought about it, right? 1383 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,500 I mean I give a talk on between scalability issues in 2014 and 1384 01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:26,000 we had such scalability issues with a scribe that we you know, 1385 01:09:26,008 --> 01:09:28,000 we built our own blockchain just for scalability, right? 1386 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,600 Watching database. We can you be so we thought 1387 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,899 about it a long time, even theories around it right? 1388 01:09:32,899 --> 01:09:35,300 That those sort of, this fundamental trade-off between 1389 01:09:35,300 --> 01:09:38,100 decentralization consistency and scale, right? 1390 01:09:38,100 --> 01:09:40,100 Like you want, ideally, you're fully permissionless, 1391 01:09:40,100 --> 01:09:43,100 decentralized and you are consistent as in. 1392 01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:46,800 You solved it Friend and you are scalable. 1393 01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:50,200 As in can handle, sort of planetary needs, right? 1394 01:09:50,500 --> 01:09:54,000 And when I wrote that post in 2016, I think it was, it was, 1395 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,300 you know, that was kind of a revelation and it was very 1396 01:09:56,300 --> 01:10:00,000 useful as a model, right? And so I profess, for example, 1397 01:10:00,100 --> 01:10:04,100 is decentralized, permissionless, and scalable, 1398 01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:06,400 but it doesn't solve the double spending problem, right? 1399 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,600 So, it's not really a blockchain per se, but it actually has a 1400 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,400 really cool data management with your duties and stuff. 1401 01:10:10,700 --> 01:10:16,300 If the room in Bitcoin they are Alice and decentralized as well 1402 01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:17,800 as consistent. You know, they self double 1403 01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,500 spend, but they haven't been scalable traditionally and then 1404 01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:23,400 big Cheney be went. The other route where it said, 1405 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:27,400 okay we need scale and we need consistency. 1406 01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,000 So I'll double spend. So we're going to loosen off a 1407 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:33,300 little bit on the decentralized by starting out being Federated, 1408 01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:36,300 when a p08 poh, right? And that was the decision at the 1409 01:10:36,300 --> 01:10:38,700 time and others have discovered that since right now, you know, 1410 01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,000 about a year later vitalik, discovered it are. 1411 01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,400 So it may be happier and now it's more, commonly known as the 1412 01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:44,900 Ability. Trilemma, right? 1413 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,300 I called it. The DC has triangle. 1414 01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:47,700 It's quite quite a well-known thing. 1415 01:10:47,700 --> 01:10:50,600 And the cool thing is, from the time that I wrote it, I was 1416 01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:51,600 hopeful. I said this is just an 1417 01:10:51,608 --> 01:10:53,700 engineering problem, it's going to get solved. 1418 01:10:53,700 --> 01:10:56,400 People are going to find ways and lo and behold they have 1419 01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,700 right, which is great, right? And the usual trick of a lot of 1420 01:11:00,708 --> 01:11:04,500 these is to leverage random numbers, you know, Monte Carlo, 1421 01:11:04,500 --> 01:11:07,200 algorithms are an amazing trick for scalability across the 1422 01:11:07,208 --> 01:11:08,400 board. You know, use them a lot of 1423 01:11:08,407 --> 01:11:12,600 places and you know how III to does it help polka dot. 1424 01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,500 Does it. How Elgar on does it add more is 1425 01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:19,300 where you, you know, have this list of 1,000 or 10,000 Canada, 1426 01:11:19,300 --> 01:11:21,100 validators. And then you randomly select 100 1427 01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:22,900 of them are so, right? And then those become your 1428 01:11:22,900 --> 01:11:26,200 validators for the next, you know, hour or 24 hours or 1429 01:11:26,208 --> 01:11:28,700 whatever. And that's a very nice approach 1430 01:11:28,700 --> 01:11:31,500 because it kind of addresses issues and there's other 1431 01:11:31,500 --> 01:11:33,600 approaches as well, right Solana for example. 1432 01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:35,000 Yeah. They focused on solving the 1433 01:11:35,008 --> 01:11:37,800 bandwidth issue drawing on their days of Qualcomm Engineers right 1434 01:11:38,100 --> 01:11:39,700 and I have great respect for Cole come Engineers that worked 1435 01:11:39,700 --> 01:11:41,900 with them a lot in the past. So I think there's a lot of 1436 01:11:41,900 --> 01:11:44,300 great approaches out there that, you know, Essentially DCS 1437 01:11:44,300 --> 01:11:46,300 triangles / scalability. Trilemma. 1438 01:11:46,900 --> 01:11:49,600 You know at first there was just theoretical Solutions and then 1439 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,100 people started building the real solutions and you know, they're 1440 01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:54,200 coming live, which is great for ocean. 1441 01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,100 We've been, you know, tracking all of these and we said you 1442 01:11:58,108 --> 01:11:59,700 know to start with we're going to deploy in aetherium. 1443 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:04,100 But after that you know we envision that ocean to be truly 1444 01:12:04,100 --> 01:12:06,500 ubiquitous and that is part of the goal of ocean you know to 1445 01:12:06,500 --> 01:12:09,500 have a true dat economy for the globe, we need to be on all the 1446 01:12:09,500 --> 01:12:11,400 substrates. Basically any substrate that has 1447 01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,100 any usage at all. We should be on it. 1448 01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:16,300 And so it's a journal write to get their bit by bit by bit. 1449 01:12:16,300 --> 01:12:19,500 So start with a theorem and then search deploying to others 1450 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,300 either ourselves as the court, ocean team or encouraging other 1451 01:12:23,300 --> 01:12:25,800 people out there in the ecosystem to deploy, but it's 1452 01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:27,100 not just deploying the ocean contracts. 1453 01:12:27,100 --> 01:12:30,100 You need to have Bridges to connect to the ocean Community, 1454 01:12:30,100 --> 01:12:32,800 because we need long-term sustainability and we can get 1455 01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:34,800 into that as well. So that's actually sort of the 1456 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,700 constraint that holds us back from, you know, deploying a 1457 01:12:36,700 --> 01:12:38,500 bunch of them right now. And you know, there's other 1458 01:12:38,500 --> 01:12:39,800 examples of the South are already, right? 1459 01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,700 Like u.s. DT is on many chains, more 1460 01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,700 recently chain link. Sort of done, sort of a 1461 01:12:44,708 --> 01:12:46,700 blitzscale to lots and lots of chains as well. 1462 01:12:46,700 --> 01:12:49,400 And I think that's great, right? So we envision the same, we 1463 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:51,200 think there's a lot of great teams with great technology out 1464 01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:56,000 there and Cosmos and polkadot have done some extra cool stuff 1465 01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:57,600 to make this easier for a lot of things too. 1466 01:12:57,600 --> 01:12:59,600 So you know, we have relationships with a lot of 1467 01:12:59,608 --> 01:13:03,500 these teams and we're hopeful and it's definitely a part of 1468 01:13:03,500 --> 01:13:07,200 oceans future towards ubiquity cool, it's good to hear. 1469 01:13:07,300 --> 01:13:09,600 So, as we wrap up, I I wanted to talk a little bit about the 1470 01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:15,100 future, and, and the ways in which you Envision ocean will 1471 01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:18,100 evolve and what are the things that came to mind is this idea 1472 01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:22,600 of data markets as a data stream and currently in the ocean 1473 01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:26,800 market, like, as I understand it, one uploads, the data a data 1474 01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,800 set and that's sort of like a fixed asset and one can purchase 1475 01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,400 it. And you know, that data set 1476 01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,900 might have different versions or it might evolve over time, but 1477 01:13:35,100 --> 01:13:40,200 it's very much like a sort of fixed type of asset. 1478 01:13:40,500 --> 01:13:46,500 But, of course, you know, data Flows In Permanence and and one, 1479 01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:50,400 you know might have used for like a constant stream of data 1480 01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,600 and I think this would be useful for building applications like 1481 01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,100 social networks Etc. How do you see ocean? 1482 01:13:57,100 --> 01:14:01,400 Evolving towards a more fluid marketplace where data flows can 1483 01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,800 be supported. Yep, so this is yet another type 1484 01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,000 of data service. So just like right now ocean has 1485 01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,800 static URLs and computer to data as two types of services, 1486 01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:14,600 definitely. Streaming data is a type of 1487 01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,400 service that is a priority for us to support. 1488 01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,400 There's actually many variants of that, right? 1489 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:22,400 Like, graphql actually has built-in streaming support, and 1490 01:14:22,700 --> 01:14:26,300 there's other, you know, sort of web two-ish technologies that 1491 01:14:26,300 --> 01:14:29,000 also help to support streaming. You do so. 1492 01:14:29,100 --> 01:14:31,400 So we look forward to having support for that. 1493 01:14:31,700 --> 01:14:34,000 And then, as time goes on, you know, we see that these are 1494 01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,600 going to get become more and more refined in terms of the 1495 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,700 support, so more specialized. So maybe there's going to be ten 1496 01:14:39,700 --> 01:14:42,000 different variants, assuming Dina, you know there's some 1497 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:43,400 great projects out there that do streaming. 1498 01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:45,900 Probably streamer comes to mind as one of them and you know 1499 01:14:45,900 --> 01:14:48,800 we're collaborating them great team and that will be a very 1500 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,600 nice feed of data into ocean ecosystem and Ocean Market 1501 01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,300 itself, right? So so that's I think a good 1502 01:14:55,300 --> 01:14:58,400 example, there's a nice stepping stone piece and that is because 1503 01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,500 the the URLs themselves are static under the hood. 1504 01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:03,100 People can keep updating the data set. 1505 01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:07,200 So we see people in Ocean Market where they post a data set for 1506 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,400 sale but then they promised you updated every four hours or 1507 01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:11,400 every 24 hours and that's happening, right? 1508 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:15,000 So that's sort of a way to kind of get They're a good example of 1509 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:19,100 that is swash where it's this data, Union of thousands of 1510 01:15:19,100 --> 01:15:21,500 members where they're selling collectively bargaining, 1511 01:15:21,500 --> 01:15:25,900 collectively selling their browser data their browser 1512 01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:29,600 history data as this data Union and then they're selling that 1513 01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:33,200 actually on Ocean. So and that's also related to 1514 01:15:33,208 --> 01:15:36,000 the human project to. So we're quite excited for many, 1515 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,500 many data services over time and there's other, you know, 1516 01:15:38,500 --> 01:15:40,900 decentralized data services that we think are going to be very, 1517 01:15:40,900 --> 01:15:42,400 very useful feeding into ocean as well. 1518 01:15:42,700 --> 01:15:45,800 You know, the ones that are More pure data ish such as numerous 1519 01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,200 signals chain-link, feeds and more. 1520 01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,900 And then also the storage Services themselves, right? 1521 01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:55,100 They're starting to accumulate more and more data to the file 1522 01:15:55,100 --> 01:15:58,900 coins and see us and the theorem swarms of the world and so on, 1523 01:15:58,900 --> 01:16:00,400 right? So all these things I think are 1524 01:16:00,407 --> 01:16:03,500 going to be you know better and better supported over time in 1525 01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:07,500 more direct, less friction. Anyways, The note to end on, I'd 1526 01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:11,100 like to ask you what types of things do you hope people will 1527 01:16:11,100 --> 01:16:14,200 build on Ocean, what would be for you? 1528 01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:18,500 Likes of a sign that ocean has achieved its gold overall. 1529 01:16:18,500 --> 01:16:22,800 I mean, generally, right. This isn't really it's a vague 1530 01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,100 go post but ubiquity right, like where it's kind of just part of 1531 01:16:27,100 --> 01:16:30,500 Internet infrastructure in a way that everyone kind of, accepts 1532 01:16:30,500 --> 01:16:33,400 it, right? Just the way that TCP IP is that 1533 01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:35,400 like that, and the wet with the web on top. 1534 01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,000 And so on. And to me, that would be great 1535 01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,200 to get to that point, but it's going to take, you know, 1536 01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,600 probably decades, right? That's okay, right? 1537 01:16:45,300 --> 01:16:47,700 What does that look like in specific measurements? 1538 01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:53,100 Maybe just, you know, knowing that ocean tools are used by 1539 01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:55,600 these higher level. But by different, like all the 1540 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,000 different organizations as just part of their overall toolbox 1541 01:16:58,700 --> 01:17:01,800 but also critical to that, you know, because this is not just a 1542 01:17:01,808 --> 01:17:05,200 one or two-year Journey but you know, decades-long sort of thing 1543 01:17:05,500 --> 01:17:07,500 and also it shouldn't Dependent on just myself and the 1544 01:17:07,508 --> 01:17:10,900 correlation team. We need to actually have a plan 1545 01:17:10,900 --> 01:17:12,600 for long-term sustainability to help. 1546 01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:14,000 Make sure this is well funded. Right? 1547 01:17:14,300 --> 01:17:17,500 And on that, you know, I won't go into too much detail but we 1548 01:17:17,500 --> 01:17:20,500 did design System Dynamics around ocean for exactly that 1549 01:17:20,500 --> 01:17:24,000 where there can be funding over time 51% of the token Supply 1550 01:17:24,500 --> 01:17:28,000 follows Bitcoin style emission curve and this goes into 1551 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,700 basically funding for the community to keep building and 1552 01:17:30,700 --> 01:17:33,700 developing projects on top. Whether it's well if you things 1553 01:17:33,900 --> 01:17:39,600 core infrastructure apps and in regressions on top Outreach and 1554 01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:41,400 unlocking specific data assets and so on. 1555 01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,700 So those four things are things that can get funded over time by 1556 01:17:44,700 --> 01:17:47,500 this year marks, apply lotion, the majority of ocean supplies 1557 01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:50,100 earmarked for this. And and then how do you curate 1558 01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:53,800 that? And the answer to that is via 1559 01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,800 Dow technology, right? That's basically technology for 1560 01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:58,500 collective decision making over time. 1561 01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,600 So we are in the process of rolling out ocean Dow which is 1562 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:03,500 sort of the final piece of the puzzle of the overall ocean 1563 01:18:03,500 --> 01:18:05,900 system. And it's going to be a humble 1564 01:18:05,900 --> 01:18:09,000 sort of We're going to start slowly start with small budget 1565 01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,800 but then over time Bit by Bit by Bit grow, the amount that is 1566 01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,200 finding and then at some point flip the switch and it'll be 1567 01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,100 funding from this 51% Supply as well. 1568 01:18:17,500 --> 01:18:22,100 So that's kind of, you know, critical towards oceans goal of 1569 01:18:22,100 --> 01:18:24,200 ubiquity. And from there, you know, 1570 01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:26,300 there's going to be other goal posts and stuff that are really 1571 01:18:26,300 --> 01:18:27,200 going to be interesting on the way. 1572 01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:31,300 But I guess another one is where, you know, when you stop 1573 01:18:31,300 --> 01:18:34,900 hearing about people complaining about how bad Facebook is and so 1574 01:18:34,900 --> 01:18:36,300 on, right? Like when that's no longer Were 1575 01:18:36,300 --> 01:18:38,500 part of the conversation, that'll be a pretty good goal 1576 01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:41,000 post, right? Or when people talk about how, 1577 01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:43,800 you know, they're making half of their income from data that 1578 01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:45,500 they're selling from the personal data or from other 1579 01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:47,600 things on the side. That's a good goal post. 1580 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,100 So so things like that, right? Towards this overall goal of 1581 01:18:51,100 --> 01:18:53,500 ubiquity as sort of infrastructure for civilization. 1582 01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,000 That's a great note to end on Trent. 1583 01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,700 Thanks so much for coming on once again and hopefully we'll 1584 01:18:59,700 --> 01:19:04,200 have you on a fifth time maybe in some in some time and 1585 01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,400 hopefully we'll get to see each other in person very soon. 1586 01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:07,800 For sure. Thank you very much. 1587 01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,400 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1588 01:19:11,700 --> 01:19:13,300 We release new episodes every week. 1589 01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:16,600 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1590 01:19:16,700 --> 01:19:19,800 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1591 01:19:20,100 --> 01:19:22,900 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1592 01:19:22,900 --> 01:19:25,900 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1593 01:19:25,900 --> 01:19:29,000 epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for a full list of places where you 1594 01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,600 can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1595 01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:34,400 for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 1596 01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,800 they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other 1597 01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:40,400 podcast listeners. You can follow us on Twitter and 1598 01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:41,700 please leave us a review on iTunes. 1599 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,300 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 1600 01:19:44,300 --> 01:19:47,600 them but thanks so much and we look forward to being back next 1601 01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:40,400 week. You can follow us on Twitter and 1602 01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:41,700 please leave us a review on iTunes. 1603 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,300 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 1604 01:19:44,300 --> 01:19:47,600 them but thanks so much and we look forward to being back next 1605 01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:47,900 week.