1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,240 Welcome to the epicenter. I'm Sebastian Cuccio and I'm 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,440 here today with. Michael AKA Crypticito. 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,240 And Magnus, AKA Magmar, one of the things that I really want to 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:16,600 make sure happens is that Adam feels connected to the road map 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,640 that we have. It's challenging, right? 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,960 And I think what we have done is emotionally processed to some 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,680 degree the difficult position that we were put in and make 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,480 sure that we were building the bedrock of a new kind of 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,760 innovative cosmos that could expand beyond what we had been 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,480 holding on to for the past five years. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,960 All the people that have been in Cosmos for years, I've been 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,200 building on Cosmos and maybe don't feel included in this new 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,480 vision. Like why should they care? 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,360 The industry is evolving, Cosmos needs to evolve, which is 15 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,080 happening along the way. Maybe some people will leave, 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,520 some new people will join, but I think finally we have leadership 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,720 that is also adaptive to where the market is going. 18 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,840 technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization 20 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,720 and the global blockchain revolution. 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,160 I'm Sebastian Coutio and I'm here today with. 22 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,360 Michael AKA Crypticito. And Magnus AKA Magmar I guess. 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,840 I always call you Magmar and people find it funny that I call 24 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,600 you Magmar, like not in text form. 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,400 So yeah, I'll keep calling you Magmar. 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,040 Before you said the show, here's a little bit of our responses 27 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,080 this week. This episode is brought to you 28 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,240 by Nosis building the open Internet one block at a time. 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,280 Nosis was founded in 2015, and it's grown from 1 of Ethereum's 30 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,680 earliest projects into a powerful ecosystem for open user 31 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,520 owned finance. Nosis is also the team behind 32 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,200 products that had become core to my business and that of so many 33 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,360 others like Safe and Cow Swap. At the center is Nosis Chain. 34 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,240 It's a low fee layer one with 0 downtime in seven years and 35 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,240 secured by over 300,000 validators. 36 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,320 It's the foundation for real world financial applications 37 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,480 like Nosis Pay and Circles. All of this is governed by Nosis 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,400 Dow, a community run organization where anyone with a 39 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,919 GNO token can vote on updates, fund new projects, and even run 40 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,360 a validator from home. So if you're building a Web 3 or 41 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,720 you're just curious about what financial freedom can look like, 42 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:21,200 start exploring at nosis dot IO. All right, guys, so we're here 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,720 at Cosmoverse, Cosmoverse 5 in Split, Croatia. 44 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,480 How's it been for you guys in the last few days? 45 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,880 I mean, I feel after goods. For me it's always months of 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,080 stress and anxiety and getting into it. 47 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,240 But seeing all of you guys here, seeing the crowd, the turn out, 48 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,360 you know, it's always nice. So now I'm actually chill. 49 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,720 I'm enjoying it and yeah. It's like pressures come down, 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,160 but like first pressure. Yeah, yeah, I feel, I feel good. 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,400 Yeah, I'm good. I'm good now. 52 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,240 You have a right to feel good. I think that you really put on 53 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,000 great events here. As always, thank you SO. 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,960 It's a little hard to get to, I will say no, but it's been 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,080 really nice. I think it's definitely a 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,840 different vibe than previous Cosmo versus that I've been to. 57 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,320 It's a little bit more, I would say put together corporate, 58 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,720 institutional, which I really like and I think is also 59 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,120 reflecting sort of where Cosmos is going, where the ecosystem is 60 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,320 going. Yeah, I think that's one of the 61 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,800 things that's perhaps the most striking at this year's Cosmos 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,040 versus just how different it is from every other Cosmos reverse 63 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:23,400 that I've been do, which isn't all of them. 64 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,200 And, and just how many, like how much of the focus has been on 65 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,160 institutions, on bringing institutions and sort of 66 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,520 corporates on chain? And there's a, there's a real 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,480 kind of feels like a vibe shift in Cosmos and it's being 68 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,160 reflected here. It's reflected also in Cosmos 69 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Labs strategy for Cosmos and the hub moving forward, which we can 70 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,240 talk about. But I think like one of the 71 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,600 things I was thinking about is like Cosmo Verse to me feels 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,920 always like a way to come and check in on the ecosystem. 73 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,560 It's like an annual, like take the pulse. 74 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,280 And I wonder, like for you guys, what's this? 75 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,760 What's the main take away at this year's Cosmo Verse? 76 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,520 Like if you can plot the five cosmovers in your mind and you 77 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,200 know what what each of those events kind of represented as a 78 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,560 moment in time, what is this moment in time? 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,960 Yeah, I just want to shout out, you know, you've done an 80 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,280 incredible job putting this on year after year. 81 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,160 So very grateful also that this conference exists and that it's 82 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,880 a great way for the entire ecosystem to come together and, 83 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,560 you know, get a sense of what's going on. 84 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,640 I think so. My first Cosmoverse was 85 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,920 Medelline and then we went to Dubai. 86 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,880 I actually wasn't in Dubai. And then our team, some of our 87 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,560 team went to Turkey too. But comparing this to Medigene, 88 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,080 I think Cosmos has changed, right? 89 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,720 And I think whenever there's big change, there are good parts to 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,000 that and there are tough parts to that, right? 91 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,400 And I think one of the things that I really try to keep in 92 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,400 mind is, is the change that we're going through, the right 93 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,280 change, right, and the change that we need. 94 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,880 And I think what I really believe and I think this is 95 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,560 reflected to some degree by Cosmo versus an ecosystem is 96 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,160 that we have to grow up right as an ecosystem. 97 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,560 We need to become a lot more forward facing. 98 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,880 We need to become a lot more dressed up to attract people who 99 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,480 actually have businesses, right and have economies and bring 100 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,160 those into Cosmos because the original, you know, ecosystem 101 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,800 that was built up sort of organically around individual 102 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,640 projects that you know, where it was kind of a very self 103 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,760 referential ecosystem. I see that evolving as into 104 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,000 something that looks a lot more integrated into society, into 105 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,280 finance, into government, etcetera. 106 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,360 And I feel that a lot here. Yeah. 107 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,760 I think that's also been how we thought about this, right. 108 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,400 If you, I mean you have your five on five, you've been to 109 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,080 Lisbon, you know how. I almost, I almost didn't make 110 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,400 it, but I'm very cool. OK. 111 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,200 And how it started off as a very grassroots, you know, developer 112 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,320 conference, developer ecosystem event after the COVID time. 113 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,640 I just got into Cosmos. I learned about it from Jack 114 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,280 Sample and big shout out who on boarded me and you know, taught 115 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:09,200 me everything and connected me with people. 116 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:10,840 And then I got really hoped about it. 117 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:14,600 And I think back then it was definitely a different 118 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,920 ecosystem. It was definitely a different 119 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,160 vibe at the conference. Now, four years later, you see 120 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,520 revolutists here, the European National Bank is here or central 121 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,840 bank is here. I mean, it's it's a whole new 122 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:30,600 paradigm, I think for us as well. 123 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,080 And while I still want to maintain this community focused, 124 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,440 right? I've said this repeatedly, like 125 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,600 I want customers to always be the home for cosmonauts. 126 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720 Whether you're a validator, whether you are holding $10 127 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,960 worth of Atom, but you just want to meet Mag, you want to meet 128 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,000 Seb, you want to meet Ethan, or you want to meet Sunny, who 129 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,240 unfortunately are not here this time, but hopefully next year 130 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,120 they will be there. You just want to meet your 131 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,440 Cosmos heroes. I want Cosmos to be a place for 132 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,720 them because I'm one of them, right? 133 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,640 I'm also an independent community member who just saw 134 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,720 this opportunity and took it in 2021. 135 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,880 And I think here we are. At the same time, we also see 136 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,080 that cryptos maturing. We have had a lot of panel 137 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,160 discussions and topics on stage where what you just said also 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,680 is, is true, right? And we are also a crypto 139 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,920 business with customers. We also need to evolve, adapt 140 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:20,640 and, and see where's the market going, right? 141 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,320 What does the market care about. So, yeah, I think we're, we're 142 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:29,600 trying to evolve as well as an organization, as a brand, as a 143 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:36,000 company, but also as a platform to yeah, to, to, to be relevant 144 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,880 for both the institutional side and and banking sector, which 145 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,600 you saw so on, on the line up this year, but at the same time 146 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,840 also for, for the cosmonauts worldwide. 147 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,960 Yeah, I think what what you said Mag really struck me is like 148 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,640 Cosmos is going through a change and what that change represents. 149 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,320 I think, you know, I, I have been sort of, you know, 150 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,480 internally and also in conversations saying this for 151 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,800 years that like, hey, the IC, the ICF should have a more 152 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,040 structured business development arm. 153 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,320 There should be more work going out there talking with 154 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,160 consulting firms to try to get them to put Cosmos into, you 155 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,840 know, different kind of enterprise settings. 156 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,200 Cosmos is the Linux of block chains, which means that, you 157 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,560 know, you know, the anecdote here is that none of the people 158 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,800 who were building Slackware Linux in the 90s got rich 159 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,960 because we all have Linux in our pockets now, you know, and, and 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,720 now that it's actually like the rubber is hitting the road, like 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,520 it's a little bit, it's a bit scary, right, that that change 162 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,640 is happening. But I think that ultimately it's 163 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,880 like a right direction. The you know what, what I think 164 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:51,160 the, the reluctance or the fear is that Cosmos loses some of its 165 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,560 essence as this very grassroots, kind of like movement ecosystem. 166 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,640 One of the things I thought, you know, I wrote down here is like, 167 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,680 I think two or three years ago there was this mean that Cosmos 168 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,280 was respected by all the other ecosystems that like people in 169 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,320 Ethereum really kind of respected Cosmos builders and 170 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,840 the the app chain thesis. And that a lot of the innovation 171 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,440 in Cosmos made its way into Ethereum and it kind of like 172 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,760 built its respect around that. And, you know, I don't think 173 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,080 we've lost that. But you know, it's, it's 174 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,840 important to me. I think that Cosmos kind of 175 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,480 keeps that that space in the ecosystem as a place of 176 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,680 innovation, as a place where people can try new things, build 177 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:33,800 new ideas. And yeah, I wonder if that makes 178 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,360 sense to you. That's something that you feel 179 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,480 is important to maintain. Yeah, I mean it, it, it totally 180 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,360 does. I think, you know, we were I I 181 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,320 grew up in that Cosmos, right, graduating college. 182 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,840 I started a company skip almost directly afterwards, which was, 183 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,320 you know, very shortly like our first crypto conference ever was 184 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,880 Cosmos right. And I think, and that was at 185 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Medellin and we had a really strong sense of the time of what 186 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,160 Cosmos was. And throughout the next three 187 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,840 years, we were its biggest advocates, right, or or some of 188 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,440 its biggest advocates and we were loyal to the ecosystem. 189 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:14,160 I think what really has happened though is it's become very clear 190 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,120 to us that the former version of Cosmos was not headed in good 191 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,360 direction, right? There was not a really strong 192 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,680 through line in terms of how we got from, you know, basically 193 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:29,240 where we were into something that looked a lot more unified 194 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,600 and a lot more cohesive for people could feel like they had 195 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,760 a place. And I think, you know, there 196 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,920 were, there were, there were pros and cons to the fact that 197 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,400 Cosmos was really decentralized, right, at least on the community 198 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,280 side and on the on the contributor side. 199 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,080 And so I think what we felt coming into the acquisition was 200 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,800 there was a mandate for change, right? 201 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,840 That someone that, that the community needed some kind of 202 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,640 shift, that the ecosystem needed some kind of shift. 203 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,760 And so our, our vision for that. And you know, there was a reason 204 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,280 I think we were acquired, especially since we had a like a 205 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,840 strong background in B to B sales and, and things like that 206 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,200 is to find a new market for Cosmos that could bring in the 207 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,720 liquidity, the users, the capital, the direction and the 208 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,200 impact that I've always thought Cosmos could have, right. 209 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,440 And I think over the last nine months, we've, we've thought 210 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,560 about different places where that could happen. 211 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:29,520 But one thing that always felt really true was we could go 212 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,800 directly to institutions and get Cosmos to become something that 213 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,080 they used. And you know, I just came from 214 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,080 money 2020 before this, which if anyone here hasn't or anyone 215 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,480 watching hasn't been to, it's a it's a completely mind changing 216 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,200 conference about what we could be like, right? 217 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,360 Just in terms of it as an ecosystem, right? 218 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,360 There's all the Fortune 500 companies there. 219 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,920 There's, you know, parades, there's massive booths, there's 220 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,360 ball pits, there's it's it's like the best crypto conference 221 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,160 times 20. And of course, it's super high 222 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,480 budget, but the difference between that and Cosmos is just 223 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,360 the fact that we haven't really found a real business use case, 224 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,200 right? And so from my perspective, if 225 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,320 we can, you know, if we can change to actually go in that 226 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,040 direction, it may hurt for one to two years, but after that the 227 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,920 rewards would be a lot greater. Anything that yeah, I mean, I 228 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,920 think if you look at other crypto ecosystems, I think a lot 229 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,720 of them actually in a very similar boat, right. 230 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,360 Like everyone is trying to also compete for, for institutional 231 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,240 clients to, to get to get them on boarded to, to build on 232 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,760 their, on their network. So I think we as cosmonauts, 233 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,560 we're fundamentally committed and convinced that, you know, 234 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,240 the app chain thesis, sovereignty, interoperability, 235 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,320 those values that Cosmos pioneered dating back over a 236 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,880 decade ago. At this point, I think we're all 237 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,920 fundamentally aligned that those values are going to be the 238 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,800 standard for the web three economy from from here on over 239 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,400 the decades to come. So I think with that in mind, 240 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,320 what we try to do with cost movers, what I tried to do with 241 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,280 with media content, everything that I'm doing is to just build 242 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,520 the rails and platforms for those conversations to happen, 243 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:09,880 right. Same like you mentioned earlier, 244 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,240 you came to Medellin, which for me was the the goats customers 245 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,920 in a conference. So it will be hard to top in the 246 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,520 future. But I think there was an amazing 247 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,720 event that got a lot of people, you know, into the spotlight for 248 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,720 the first time, all sustained network had they're coming out 249 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,760 at customers Saga Babylon, right? 250 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,120 I remember we didn't they didn't have a logo at that time. 251 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,400 Like we we had to cook something up on the spot to put in their 252 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,720 booth because they hadn't didn't even have a proper logo. 253 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,280 That's where we had our coming out, too. 254 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,080 Yeah. And I think that's, you know, 255 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 that is very true. It is also, I want to state that 256 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,600 very, very capital intensive to to run events, to do events, 257 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,160 physical events to feeds a couple 100 people's for 3-4 days 258 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,280 in a row that costs a lot of money. 259 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:03,040 So yeah, and I think overall the sentiments right now after a lot 260 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,320 of the things that Cosmos went through that crypto went through 261 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,600 as an industry, right, which probably started somewhere in 262 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,200 like May 2022 with a with a terror collapse. 263 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,720 I think we're still that is still in our bones, you know, 264 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,600 and now with this major shift that we're in from building this 265 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,040 vibrant on chain ecosystem to say, hey, we, we are, are 266 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,040 targeting institutional clients and there's actually appetite 267 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,560 because we all agree. Like for them, it makes the most 268 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,760 sense to build on Cosmos, right? Why would they depend on another 269 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,960 network? Why would they depend on another 270 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,560 ecosystem instead of building their own rails? 271 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,720 So, yeah, I think we're all fundamentally aligned. 272 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,920 But yeah, it's, it's been a a change transformative year or 273 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,240 transition year for Cosmos that I don't know how long we'll 274 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,720 still still take to, to kind of complete or where we see the 275 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,200 fruits of. But yeah, it's, it's been 276 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,720 interesting for the past six months particularly. 277 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,040 And yeah, we'll see where we stand a year from now. 278 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,760 Something that served me and both of your answers is that you 279 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,840 said that, you know, there would be some time until you start 280 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,320 seeing the rewards and the fruits of our labor. 281 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,120 And, and, and that brings me to Adam, because I think that's a 282 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,640 very important part of the story here. 283 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,800 And like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm, 284 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,680 I'm going to paraphrase here what I, I recall you saying to 285 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,320 me when, when we first talked after the acquisition. 286 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,440 And was that one of your kind of main focuses aside from getting 287 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,560 Cosmos and stuff like the SDK in institutions would be for Adam 288 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,760 to benefit from all of this value that was created? 289 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,840 And you know, I talked to some people here over the last two 290 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,480 days and you know, I talked to a lot of people in Cosmos kind of 291 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,880 generally. And I think one of the main 292 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:52,400 things that I'm hearing is that there's, there's like Cosmos 293 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,160 Labs is work that they're doing and it's kind of the things that 294 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,360 Cosmos Labs is putting out there in terms of the institutions 295 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,800 that bring on board, etcetera. And then it feels like some 296 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,560 black box, right, of like something's going to happen and 297 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,440 an Adam Price will go up. And people feel like my my sense 298 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,280 and myself as well as like, what is in this black box, Like 299 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,560 what's what's meant to happen for those two to kind of 300 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,280 correlate and for Adam to benefit from the work that 301 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,880 you're doing. And yeah, so I wonder if you can 302 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,240 share some thoughts there, like at least directionally, because 303 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,280 I know that there's still some things that need to be figured 304 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,640 out. But yeah, you're thinking about 305 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,040 that. No, I think it's a really good 306 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,120 question and I think it's important also for everyone, 307 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,840 especially a Cosmovers, to ask these questions and to help us 308 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,960 stay accountable and think through the solutions, because 309 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,760 then the day I'm not a token guru, right I, I, if I knew 310 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,720 exactly what would make Adam go up, you know, life might be a 311 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,600 little bit different. I think from my perspective, 312 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,880 this is how I think about it, right? 313 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,240 Adam is one of thousands and thousands and thousands of 314 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,240 crypto currencies. And that bar for something to be 315 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,079 valuable is a lot higher than it used to be when Adam was first 316 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,880 launched, when it was, you know, genuinely the only way to invest 317 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,119 in a multi chain thesis, right? Which is a very exciting thesis. 318 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,599 The Internet of blockchains. A lot of people who are here 319 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,359 today came from that time when they heard Jay or they heard 320 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,520 Ethan speak about, OK, this is what the world's going to look 321 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,560 like. And they believe that. 322 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,119 The truth is that is no longer only our vision, right? 323 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,680 That is the vision of Etherium with their L2 thesis. 324 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,600 That is the vision of, you know, optimism. 325 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,360 That is the vision of Arbitrum. That's the vision of Avalanche 326 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,080 with their L1 thesis. That's the vision of Corda 327 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,120 Hyperledger, right? That that has become not just a 328 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,200 way that Cosmos has become basically a bet on that future, 329 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,880 but it's no longer alone in there. 330 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,680 And so I think the question that we have to ask ourself is where 331 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,320 do we fit, right? What are we of bet on and how do 332 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,160 we be as innovative as we were six years ago today, right? 333 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,160 Because we need to be that innovative, we need to be that 334 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,720 ambitious. Otherwise, you know, there's 335 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,240 plenty of players out there that are, you know, innovative and 336 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,480 ambitious on different things. And we need to have our own 337 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,560 track. And so the way that I viewed it 338 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,440 is there's a lot of debt to pay off in Cosmos. 339 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,080 When we came in, there was a lot of debt. 340 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,040 That's how it felt. There's a lot of community debt. 341 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,760 There were people who were hurt by specific things in the past. 342 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,040 There was a lot of like, you know, missing goodwill there. 343 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,280 And you need to have that foundation to move forward, 344 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:37,880 right? You need to have the foundation 345 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,480 of people who are committed for the long term of good projects, 346 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,160 of good community members, of a cohesive community, of good 347 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,160 conferences, of developers. That is your bedrock that you 348 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,640 can build a new vision on top of. 349 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:58,040 And part of that is also letting what is not good go away, right? 350 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,840 Or accelerating the process of removing the dead weight on the 351 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,720 ecosystem. And dead weight is a real thing, 352 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,760 right? That weight is a real overhang 353 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,120 that can prevent you from innovating. 354 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,320 And so it's challenging, right? And I think what what we have 355 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,120 done is emotionally process to some degree the difficult 356 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,400 position that we were put in and make sure that we were building 357 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,600 the bedrock of a new kind of innovative Cosmos that could 358 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,560 expand beyond what we've been holding on to for the past five 359 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,480 years, right, as an ecosystem, which was this initial vision of 360 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,120 what this could be. And a lot of that, a lot of that 361 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,280 comes down to questioning assumptions, right? 362 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,680 So the assumption was that the Cosmos Hub would be the center 363 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,720 of Cosmos, right? And that it would have the sort 364 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,280 of. It's in the name. 365 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:47,960 What's that? It's in the name actually, 366 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,080 exactly. It was a very, it was, it was a 367 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,800 very commonly held assumption. And the truth is that assumption 368 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,200 never came to pass, right. And so when we we do care about 369 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,240 Adam and that is the token that we want to drive value to the 370 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,800 way that we think about it is, OK, maybe that actually wasn't 371 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,720 the right vision for Adam. Right. 372 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,280 Maybe the right vision for Adam is actually for it to be the 373 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,720 currency that underpins the world coming on chain in a much 374 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,400 more tangible way, right? In a, in a way where people are 375 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,400 actually paying an Adam or using Adam to get services for their 376 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,200 companies and they're using it as the connecting currency to 377 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,920 pay in Web 3, right? Dollar is the currency of Web 2. 378 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,040 What could we do to make Adam the currency of Web 3, right? 379 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,360 And have those interact together. 380 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,360 And so that's the exploration process that Nico chatted 381 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,160 through during his talk. I'd also like to add like 382 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,320 historically over the years, you know, thinking back from also 383 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,360 where we first met in 2021, those times, I think Cosmos has 384 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,600 always been a very open ecosystem that was very 385 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,920 welcoming to anybody, right? If you're a developer, if you're 386 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,640 just any, any, any type of person, right? 387 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,000 You, you could find your, your people, right? 388 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,840 Yeah, I think over the years and I'm not sure what what the 389 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,560 reasons are for that, but I at least started to notice also 390 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,640 that there was no like you were saying, no cohesive, you know, 391 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,880 road map. There was no, I feel like a lot 392 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,880 of people were not swimming in the same direction, but they 393 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,760 were rather like swimming, you know, against each other. 394 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,080 And and that caused a lot of drama, a lot of things, a lot of 395 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,480 missed opportunities as well, a lot of timelines that were, you 396 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,440 know, that other ecosystems picked up and, and put into that 397 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,040 road maps and ecosystems. But yeah, I think there's many 398 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,560 ways on how there's a future in which atom could become what 399 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,840 you're describing. I think a lot of it is also 400 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,480 around just driving that awareness chase like chasing 401 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,760 that dialogue with relevant players and institutions, which 402 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,160 we're doing what you're doing, which I think we're we're 403 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:54,000 aligned on that because, yeah, I mean, if you if you look at the 404 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,080 ripples and extra piece of the world, right, they don't really 405 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,560 have a vibrant Unchained ecosystem in that sense. 406 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,160 But it's $200 billion token and they do something wrong. 407 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,120 And what do you what do you think of if you're here XRP, you 408 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,520 think it's the the banking corn of of the US, right. 409 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,520 Yeah. So a lot of it also has to do 410 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,640 with branding perception storyline, really bringing this 411 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,120 front and center over and over again. 412 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,880 And I think for Atom, like you're saying, there's probably 413 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,080 a lot of lot of depth there. But now also what we've been 414 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,560 talking over the years, there is finally a proactive vision from 415 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,800 the leadership from the foundation Cosmos Labs that is 416 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,480 now taking more accountability as you were describing, right? 417 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,760 And things were a bit shaky with certain things, but that's you 418 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,120 know, that's what it was. I think now it sounds like and 419 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:53,280 and feels like there's at least some game plan and like a lot of 420 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,640 very smart people that are actually thinking about the long 421 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,760 term vision here, right. So pretty to you to bury to the 422 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:06,200 skip team now Cosmos Labs team to really put brain juice into 423 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,920 this and to really evaluate and think and assess what could make 424 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,960 sense, right. And I guess we'll see. 425 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,120 I mean, crypto is also the thing Roger just said it on stage, 426 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:19,240 like if you're there for for a couple of years, it's basically 427 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,920 hundreds of years in in normal time. 428 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,920 So, yeah, it's very fast moving and but I think finally we have 429 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,120 leadership that is also adaptive to where the market is going. 430 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,840 Yeah, I think that's true. That feels to me like, I mean, 431 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,880 at least directionally, I think that Cosmos Lab is is taking 432 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,120 Cosmos in the right direction. And I think there's like still 433 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:51,200 lots of headwinds that yeah, that will be faced and that, you 434 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,880 know, assumptions that need to be validated. 435 00:23:52,880 --> 00:24:00,040 And I think, you know, the app chain thesis, while it has been 436 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,520 validated in, in many of the kind of like Cosmos circles. 437 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,080 And you know, maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the 438 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,960 partners that are launching Cosmos app chains, you know, in 439 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,320 the broader crypto ecosystem chase like Solana, like Ethereum 440 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,720 there there's still some there's definite sort of like evidence 441 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,920 that there's also other ways to build blockchain applications 442 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,320 like if you look at base or any of the other kind of successful 443 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,520 L twos. So, yeah, I want to give you 444 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,120 also an opportunity to talk about some of the announcements 445 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,040 you guys made here, some of the chains that are. 446 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,840 Yeah, what's the AA? Yeah, this is always the annual 447 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,360 Alpha podcast. Yeah, this so give. 448 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,120 It a name I will try to do and by. 449 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,360 The way I'm getting, I'm also expecting. 450 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,040 Some alpha from you because this will definitely come out after 451 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,680 any announcement you made here so. 452 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,960 So I, I think I mean, to your point, there are many ways to 453 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,760 build a successful blockchain ecosystem. 454 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,200 And the truth is actually, at at least in my opinion, there was 455 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,400 really only one way that basically everyone bought into. 456 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,720 And Cosmos try was the first to try something else, right? 457 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,760 And the one way was basically you build an L1, you get a bunch 458 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,560 of developers to build on the L1. 459 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,880 Everyone gets access to the same token with the same gas fees, 460 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,640 and all the incentives are aligned because everyone wants 461 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,400 that token to go up, right? This is the Etherium model. 462 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,640 This is the Solana model, right? Everyone says, OK, I'm on 463 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,520 Solana, right? I'm on Etherium. 464 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,000 So we're all building to make Etherium better. 465 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,840 If they go out and they show Etherium to their other 466 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,000 developer friends, right, and to investors. 467 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,600 And then you get investors who have a thesis on Etherium, 468 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,040 right? Or on Solana. 469 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,400 And Cosmos took a huge risk in saying, well, what if we didn't 470 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,800 do any of that? Yeah, you're still unsafe. 471 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,720 Cosmos is different. Cosmos is different. 472 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,400 Right, Cosmos. Cosmos is. 473 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,440 And we all find ourselves sort of explaining this to people all 474 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,000 the time, yeah. Exactly. 475 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,840 And and it's it's, but, but still a lot of people don't 476 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,760 understand that, right. A lot of people don't understand 477 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,480 that Cosmos was built to be a different kind of experiment 478 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,520 where it wasn't about, you know, everyone being on the same L1, 479 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,040 all pushing towards the same thing. 480 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,440 It wasn't even like the Avalanche model where they have 481 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,320 separate L ones, but they're all connected to the same core 482 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,400 blockchain. You have to pay an AVAX to to 483 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,840 actually be there. And I think the big question 484 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,640 that we had to ask ourselves this year, and honestly, you 485 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,280 know, this was a really hard decision, is do we still try to 486 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,280 make that model work, right? The model of where we have 487 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,720 different chains and we have complete sovereignty and 488 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,440 independence and interoperability? 489 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,720 Or do we try to revert to a Etherium or Solana type model, 490 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,360 right? And so when we were thinking 491 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,200 about launching the EVM on the hub, that was us thinking, OK, 492 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,680 maybe actually we have to go to the other kind of model, right? 493 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,240 We have to go to the unified. Everyone builds the one thing 494 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,680 it's all about, Adam, And you know, screw the rest of the 495 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,280 ecosystem or not screw them, but just, you know, it's not as 496 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,880 important. It's not aligned, that kind of 497 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,320 thing. I think what we realize is 498 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,560 actually the bigger fish that we can go after is making the 499 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,520 original model work right and making taking what I think 500 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,760 traditionally is viewed as a weakness of cosmos and trying to 501 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,480 turn into a strength. Leaning into the action exactly 502 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,000 leading into sovereignty. Leaning and even harder, yeah, 503 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,160 right. And so I do have a lot of pro 504 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,440 points that we can point to, one of which we try to announce on 505 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,080 stage. I hope, hopefully it came 506 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,120 across. But we have won the official 507 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,400 contracts to build the CBDC's for two major governments, both 508 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,480 in Latin America right now. Another one is right under is 509 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,880 underway and is at the ending stages in Spain. 510 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,480 Those two countries combined have a $600 million budget for 511 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,440 building their CBDC's with us. That's also partnership with 512 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,440 Piercest. I should point out separately, 513 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:53,480 we have also closed two major Fortune 500 companies on 514 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,280 building Cosmos Chase. I can't speak to their specific 515 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,040 names. They will come out. 516 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,760 I think hopefully in the next two to three months we'll we'll 517 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,520 see exactly sort of where their marketing teams are at that 518 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,120 time. But in my opinion, those two 519 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,160 chains combined represent a larger market opportunity for 520 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,120 Cosmos and everyone inside of it, the validators, the 521 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,920 infrastructure providers, the block explorers, the wallets, 522 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,880 the community members, the developers, bigger opportunities 523 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,760 than anything else we've seen so far, right? 524 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,560 But it is on Cosmos. And you didn't pay any of these 525 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,920 people? No, in fact, I hope they are. 526 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:32,080 I know it's, it's a crazy, it's a crazy shift, right? 527 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,240 And I do think it is on the people in Cosmos to be open to 528 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,480 that, right, to say, OK, what do I need to do to appeal to 529 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,520 institutions, right? Because we can only do so much. 530 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,400 We're trying our best for ourself, but we can't change 531 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,640 everyone else, right. And so, for example, for 532 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,680 validators, getting their SoC 2 compliance, basic things you 533 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,680 have to do to work with in enterprise, right? 534 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,080 If you're a block explorer, making sure you have, you know, 535 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,240 private, private dashboards that you can offer a white label 536 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,160 dashboards, right? If you're, if you're in media, 537 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,600 making sure that you have the right relationships and you 538 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,960 know, you know how to present properly to look professional, 539 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,800 right? I'm not saying this is you guys. 540 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,720 Hey, we got a like proper backdrop. 541 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,680 You know, what I'm saying is you got you guys were doing really 542 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,880 good at this. Bloomberg, Adrian, Andrew 543 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,280 Bloomberg's back here. Exactly. 544 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,640 But I think these are the kinds of things that people really 545 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,760 need to consider if they want to come for this ride. 546 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Yeah. Now my, you know, I did the my 547 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,080 intro and my videos. Buenos Dias, buenas Dias not 548 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,280 make sense. Latin American central banks, 549 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,000 we're coming full circle. I like that. 550 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,120 Excellent. We'll be back to media next 551 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,000 year. Maybe I mean, there there will 552 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,240 definitely be a Part 2 of a chapter 2 of customers median 553 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,000 guaranteed at some point have to do it. 554 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,960 But yeah, I think to your point also, I think I'm personally 555 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,560 like very aligned with that with that focus on, you know, 556 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,320 starting to also think how can how can you make money as an 557 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,720 organization? I think for many, many years 558 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,960 Cosmos has especially ATOM right has always given his paid a lot 559 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,080 and given a lot. But I think, yeah, this is 560 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,160 definitely the right direction and and something of sub of 561 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,680 substance, right, not just like, hey, this is what we want to do 562 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,760 about it, but actually something that is that is happening. 563 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:33,560 I think also to your question on alpha from our side, we are also 564 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,120 looking at, you know, always interesting regions for where we 565 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,880 can do customers. You mentioned really was a bit 566 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,600 hard to get to split, I agree for, you know, people from 567 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,040 outside Europe, but actually for, you know, people from 568 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Vienna, from Germany, like it's super easy to get to. 569 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,800 So this year was really the theme around Mika, around 570 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,280 policy. There was also the theme of this 571 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,800 year's conference policy, its protocol regulators from the 572 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,560 Serbian Securities Commission, Bosnia, right. 573 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,320 For them it's just a quick hop or a quick drive. 574 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,320 That said, for next year, very proud to announce. 575 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,400 Hope this is coming out only after the announcement. 576 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,960 Very proud to announce that Customers 2026 is coming to Hong 577 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,880 Kong. That will be the first time 578 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,720 we're properly in Asia, I should say. 579 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,960 I mean, we've been to Dubai, but yeah, we're very excited for 580 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,600 that. I just spent a week there 581 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,800 scouting venues, scouting places, meeting people, very 582 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,480 vibrant ecosystem, especially also in the fintech space, which 583 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,040 I think fits very well also into what you're doing and also what 584 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,160 entire crypto space is headed right. 585 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,000 We also have very, very interesting talks with the likes 586 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 of Hash Key and Tether, right, and other organizations that 587 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,960 are, you know, long term, kind of, you know, enthusiasts and 588 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,720 and organizations that are actually cosmonauts underneath 589 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,240 many of them, right? They have other investments in 590 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,680 the ecosystem and atom or run infrastructure or those kind of 591 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,520 things. So very excited for that. 592 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,000 And I mean, like, yeah, there's like a huge Cosmos community in 593 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,320 Korea that's just, you know, a few hours away. 594 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,560 And I think this is great. Very. 595 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,040 I think it's great. Taking. 596 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,080 It's also a direct flight from New York, which is. 597 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,320 But it will be hard for people from splits to come to Hong 598 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,560 Kong. OK, so they had their chance. 599 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,080 You know they had a chance of investor. 600 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,880 I want to bring it back to the, the community a little bit 601 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,600 because like it, I think it's, it's great for Cosmos, the stack 602 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,560 and it's great for Cosmos. The thesis that institutions 603 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,040 that major Fortune 500 companies that governments are using the 604 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,480 Cosmos stack. But the, all the people that 605 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,280 I've been in Cosmos for years, I've been building on Cosmos and 606 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,800 that maybe don't feel included in this new vision. 607 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,560 Like why should they care like Adam holders? 608 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,520 Why should they care people who have been bullish on Cosmos, the 609 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,880 ecosystem for years, why should they care? 610 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,600 And and I think the bigger question is what can they do to 611 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,360 participate in this new direction? 612 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,920 Like what's the what's the action point that Colin kind of 613 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,440 call to action for for people. Yeah. 614 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,520 And I align. I think this immediately gets 615 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,480 back to the question of who is the community, right? 616 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,200 So for example, you know, I don't want to name specific 617 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,920 names, but if a chain adopted the open source Cosmos stack and 618 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800 then attracted a bunch of retail investors who bought the token, 619 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,520 are they the community that we feel accountable to, right? 620 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,680 So, so it under that model, every, you know, member of the 621 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,600 200 ish chains or more chains that is launched would be a 622 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,080 member of the community that we would feel responsible for, 623 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,800 right? And I think from our 624 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,560 perspective, it is really hard to do something that will 625 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,360 appease all of those individuals, right? 626 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,360 Because a lot of these chains are fully sovereign, right? 627 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,280 It would be like if we were the UN and we tried to appeal the 628 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,560 citizens of every single country, right? 629 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,560 Well, the truth is, they're all totally different. 630 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:02,720 They all want totally different things. 631 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,560 And so the UN often times gets caught up doing nothing, right, 632 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,760 because they can't agree on anything. 633 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,880 And so I think what our job is to do is to present a future, to 634 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,159 go after that future, to help that future succeed and then 635 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:19,360 bring along whoever wants to come with, right? 636 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:23,239 And so I think the, the core thing that I'm looking at right 637 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,760 now is, OK, who are the people who are positively engaging with 638 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,360 this vision, right? If they're, you know, if they're 639 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,880 sort of caught up in the past or they want they, they were super 640 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,400 excited about, you know, some other version of Cosmos that 641 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,320 they got excited about previously. 642 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,639 There's not much I can do for them, right? 643 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,400 Or there's not much that the, the Cosmos can do for them. 644 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,040 I think it's, it's really important to me right now to 645 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,480 know sort of who is interested in this and who's not, right? 646 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:52,880 I, there's, there's a number of ways to get involved. 647 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,920 The first thing is there are going to be new trains coming, 648 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,760 right? And so when we talk about people 649 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,720 are bullish on the Cosmos ecosystem, I would invite them 650 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,800 to have a slightly more expanded viewpoint of what that means, 651 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,360 right? It doesn't have to mean exactly 652 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,880 what you thought it meant two years ago. 653 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,400 It could mean enterprise is coming on chain, right? 654 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,560 It could mean major gaming companies or IP companies coming 655 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,480 and launching, you know, their anime anime, their anime IP on 656 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,320 chain, engaging with that, right? 657 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,160 There's going to be many options for individual community members 658 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,880 to get involved, whether it's on the fintech side and they're 659 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,160 interested in making money, whether it's on the, you know, 660 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,240 entertainment side. And we're going to make that 661 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,640 very open and available to these people. 662 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,960 But I think it is on them to sort of say, hey, I'm willing to 663 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,560 expand my viewpoint of the new things that are coming and I 664 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,720 want to be engaged in those versus, OK, I remember these 10 665 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,360 chains from three years ago, they're not doing so well. 666 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,040 So I'm upset. Yeah, I think there's definitely 667 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,680 no black and whites on that's answering that. 668 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,600 I, I think, you know, the institutions that are coming in 669 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,360 are, are probably as much valuable as, you know, to the 670 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,880 regular atom holder that has $100.00 of atom. 671 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,040 But it's just very passionate about it. 672 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,880 It's coming to all the events. It's active on telegrams, active 673 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,240 on Twitter and socials. And I think a lot of the times, 674 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:21,000 and I'm noticing that as well and getting some of that 675 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,920 feedback is, you know, those retail community people feel 676 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,280 that now that the institutions are coming, they're a little bit 677 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,600 scared that like, OK, that means we're cut off from everything, 678 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,960 right? And this is, I mean, they feel, 679 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,320 I, I believe that the feeling is that, you know, they're not as 680 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,560 valuable or not as respected or important. 681 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,240 And I think there's maybe something to that as well. 682 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,000 But generally speaking, I personally at least feel that's 683 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,040 why I said in the beginning to make it very clear, I want 684 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,240 customers to always be a home for every customer. 685 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,600 Not whereas a solo validator that is, you know, running an 686 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,280 utter node since couple years or whether it's, you know, I don't 687 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,840 know, revolutes or, or some large institution that is just 688 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,440 interested in in joining and and being here. 689 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,520 So, yeah, for me, that's why I said like it's, it's not a black 690 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,160 and white. I think the the industry is 691 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,440 evolving. Cosmos needs to evolve, which is 692 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,480 happening. And yeah, I think along the way, 693 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,720 maybe some people will leave, some new people will join. 694 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:25,920 But yeah, I think in the end of the day, it's, it's really 695 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,440 important to also still make sure that those that have been 696 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,000 around, which still is the case, right? 697 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,720 There's many automotive that probably bought the top at $40. 698 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,920 But they truly believe in, in the vision. 699 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,880 They like the, the, the sense of belonging to this community that 700 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,640 they also feel that there is space for them in the future. 701 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,280 And I think that is very important and also challenging 702 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,640 for you, I guess to figure out how can we, how can we solve 703 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,200 that? How can we make that clear? 704 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,240 And I, I guess maybe there's also where we can come in as 705 00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:57,920 customers, right? Because the way I always see it, 706 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,200 and I said this to a couple months or around a year ago, I 707 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,160 think when we had a call, I said like the way I see how Cosmos is 708 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,360 structured organizationally is like like a network of L ones, 709 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,000 right? So you have Cosmovers, which is 710 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,800 an independent server, an organization. 711 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,680 You have Cosmos Labs and there's other organizations, some of 712 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,440 them are more active or less than they were a couple years 713 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,960 ago. But I feel like there's 714 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,720 definitely a lot of like independent contributors that 715 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,080 are still there, They're still passionate, and they are trying 716 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,560 to also adapt to these new environments in the same way how 717 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,320 you are adapting to the broader environment, right? 718 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,360 And I think that's going to be interesting to see how that will 719 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,080 play out. Yeah. 720 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,560 Yeah, I, I mean, on your point about making sure that the 721 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,880 people who have been in Cosmos stay involved, I do think that's 722 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,640 important. I think one of the ways that 723 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:51,320 I've tried to do this, you know, and I think Cosmos has tried to 724 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,840 do this is, is just be very active, right. 725 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,920 So I'm a participant in the, in the that's called the atom 726 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,280 trenches, you know, in a, in a sort of ridiculous way. 727 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,560 I mean, I've done things sort of as crazy as give out $40,000 728 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,320 during the most recent flash crash to like individuals who 729 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,800 were suffering. I think one of the things that I 730 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,920 really want to make sure happens is that Adam feels connected to 731 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,320 the road map that we have, right? 732 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,440 Because when it's disconnected or Atom is, is something that's 733 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,920 just like a side project or that's how it's viewed. 734 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,080 It's very hard for all those people, including myself as 735 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,160 someone who's a huge atom holder that, you know, I purchased at 736 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,800 much higher than today's prices to feel connected to our 737 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,240 enterprise side. And I don't think that has to be 738 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:44,080 the case, right? And so a lot of what Nico 739 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,480 chatted about on stage was, you know, three things that we're 740 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,120 doing. The first one is a massively 741 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,360 expanded delegation program. You know, it's a 2X ING in size 742 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,920 to $40 million where we're going to be giving out a lot more 743 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,240 delegations to individual validators that do things like 744 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,040 media, do things like outreach, do things like, you know, 745 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,840 building dashboards, building communities, all those different 746 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,080 things. The second thing that we're 747 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,160 doing is we're commissioning a huge tokenomics revamp. 748 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,840 So basically what that looks like is participating in a 749 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,520 research process where we have a bunch of experts talking to 750 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,640 professors at Columbia, etcetera, to think about how 751 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,800 does Adam tokenomics best fit our updated road map. 752 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,360 Because the truth is all of this doesn't matter if Adam goes down 753 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,880 just consistently, right? And so we feel like there's a 754 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,160 lot of pressure right now to make Adam look like something 755 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,640 that's investable. And I think right now it's if we 756 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,480 struggle to sell it as an investable asset to 757 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,840 institutions, but that can change, right? 758 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,240 That can change, and that's what we're hoping to change. 759 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,880 Right. And and Adam, Adam has a lot of 760 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,560 foundations that I think work in its favor. 761 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,960 The fact that it's broadly distributed that just like a 762 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,760 broad distribution set of holders that it's integrated on 763 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,040 the centralized exchanges. It has like wallets, it has, you 764 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,920 know, like a good RPC infrastructure and all those 765 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,160 things. So like that we need we need to 766 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,800 kind of capitalize I think on that as we make it more 767 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,840 investable. I think also it started to, but 768 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,520 like that's actually the biggest strength of ATOM is that it's 769 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,680 been around for five years on the market like and it's listed 770 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,800 everywhere and you know, every year there's a new ATOM killer. 771 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,120 Like we're going to be the new, we're the new customers now. 772 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,000 I mean, most of these tokens are either not live yet or they're 773 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,440 just, you know, they just launched and they all go through 774 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,960 their little honeymoon phase and then they come down to earth. 775 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,680 And then you'll see, you know, after three, six, nine months, 776 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,600 is the leadership still aligned after they did their TGE, many 777 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,200 of them usually like cash out and just say bye bye. 778 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,720 That's it. So that's the biggest strength 779 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:46,800 in Cosmos or Atoms specifically that it already went through 780 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,640 that multiple times, multiple leadership. 781 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,440 Changes were survivors. Multiple insane events that went 782 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,720 down in in Cosmos history and it's still there and it's still 783 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,040 in the top 100. I wish it was in the top 20, of 784 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,280 course, but it's still there even though it has crazy 785 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,600 inflation, even though, you know, Terra went down all these 786 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,320 things and liquidity drained entirely in in Cosmos 2 1/2 two 787 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,520 years ago. So in spite all of that, it's 788 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,600 still there. And I think that alone is a big 789 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,720 achievement. I think surviving in crypto is 790 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:19,320 the single most underrated achievement as an organization, 791 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,880 as an investor, as a token, right? 792 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,600 So, and it's not just the token like when we go to companies and 793 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,960 we tell them we started in 2019, they're like, wait a second, 794 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,840 you've been around for six years. 795 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,480 You know, most of our competitors have not, you know, 796 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,520 they were they were in in in diapers. 797 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,800 So sort of as a project when we started. 798 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,920 And I think that is made it a lot easier for us to execute 799 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,800 this new road map too, right, because we have the battle 800 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,160 sparks, we have the trust, we've had major chains launch on our 801 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,480 platform and that gives us the the opportunity to sort of 802 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,640 expand on that. Can you talk about the technical 803 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,600 and what's what, what should people be excited about in terms 804 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,000 of customers of CK evolving from here? 805 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,400 Yeah. So I think when you talk about 806 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,680 the technical road map, there's the parks that are perhaps 807 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,160 exciting to devs and the parks that are exciting to like a more 808 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,080 retail audience for developers. I think they can look forward to 809 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,000 a lot when it comes to us trying to production Alize, the Cosmos 810 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,320 SDK and Comet BFT and IBC for institutions. 811 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,640 So on the one hand, we are building out a lot more tooling 812 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,080 to make it easier to launch Cosmos chains. 813 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,160 We're making it easier to manage validator sets. 814 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,440 We're making it easier to connect your chain to other 815 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,760 block chains over IBC Eureka and, and we're also making it 816 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,440 way faster. And what I mean by that is it's 817 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,120 easier to set up a chain, but then also the chain itself is 818 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,400 going to be a lot more performance. 819 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,160 So we've done a lot of research recently into expanding the TPS 820 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,920 of Cosmos chains at a base level. 821 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,360 And the way that we've done that is, you know, definitely watch 822 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,280 Barry's talk if you want more detail on this. 823 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,720 But we've been implementing some new innovations that have come 824 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:57,320 out of consensus research like Block STM and Block STM, Block 825 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,720 SDM is essentially A paralyzation framework. 826 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,960 It makes it a lot easier for Cosmos chains to paralyze 827 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,240 actions that were normally serial. 828 00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:10,640 So in particular, block production versus voting on a 829 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,120 block. These things can now happen at 830 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,720 the same time versus having to be step one, then Step 2, then 831 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,320 Step 3. So they can do a lot more at 832 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,600 once basically. And what we're hoping to get to 833 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:24,080 our TPS numbers that take advantage of the fact that you 834 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,040 can just get a lot more out of a specific app chain then you can 835 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,720 a massive shared L1, right? So we're hoping to overtake the 836 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,600 TPS Solana within like a 12 month time frame. 837 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,040 So that means getting above, you know, basically 50,000 TPS at 838 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,080 least at least in terms of our measurements. 839 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,760 And then also being able to implement a lot of the new 840 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,960 modules and features that a lot of these institutions are asking 841 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,160 for that make it easier for them to adopt Cosmos into their 842 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,360 existing stack. I was talking to Barry this 843 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,800 morning about privacy and that's been one of the privacy is big 844 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,640 main things that, you know, institutional clients want. 845 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:03,520 What's your vision for bringing privacy into with Cosmos Stack? 846 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,920 I'd say there's a couple things we're exploring. 847 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,240 So the, the, so right now one of the biggest block chain success 848 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:12,800 stories is Canton, which maybe you're familiar with, you're 849 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,680 not. But it's a private 850 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,200 institutionally focused block chain that a bunch of 851 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,720 institutions are investing in and deploying on, right. 852 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,880 And the only thing that I think makes it special is that it has 853 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,720 some degree of privacy or confidentiality. 854 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,080 From our perspective. There are, you know, obviously 855 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,400 there's always multiple approaches to go about privacy, 856 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,680 that the most traditional approach is actually very 857 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,000 simple, which is just to have a private chain, right? 858 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,600 Don't expose your chain to anyone who you don't want to 859 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,960 see, right? So you just have sort of inside 860 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,840 the company, no one else can see it. 861 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,240 You know, it runs in the background. 862 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,400 That's the most common way. And that actually works a lot 863 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,680 for specific use cases. The second question is, well, 864 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,680 what if you want some kind of public presence, but also to 865 00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:58,160 keep some of that privacy. So what we call this is more 866 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,880 like differential privacy or basically maybe you have a 867 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,400 private chain for some transactions and a public chain 868 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,360 for others and maybe they connect over. 869 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,760 Ibci think that the place where it gets really tricky is if you 870 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,120 want full privacy like like full ZK or threshold encrypted 871 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,920 environments or trusted encryption environments with 872 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,480 threshold encryption. All of those are much bigger 873 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,720 technical lifts that honestly even and the most privacy 874 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,560 forward chains haven't fully figured out. 875 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,360 Is there anything you can take away from some of the open 876 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,800 source things like Penumbra, Ferguson, or any of the kind of 877 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,240 attempts and cosmos to build private chains? 878 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,720 Are there any kind of interesting technical takeaways 879 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:41,760 that we can utilize from these? Yes, DEX, I mean, Penumbra is 880 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,160 incredible technology, truly groundbreaking in terms of how 881 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,280 they how they brought out such a degree of anonymization around 882 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,720 sort of their wallet creation process and other things. 883 00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:53,760 I think all of that tech is very interesting. 884 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,840 It's just very heavy, right? Very heavy tech, meaning it's 885 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,000 expensive, it's slow, it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of 886 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,320 specific kind of knowledge to operate. 887 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,600 And so institutions are generally a little bit afraid of 888 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,120 signing up for that kind of commitment from our experience. 889 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,000 I also want to add like I think if you look at any vertical 890 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,960 within crypto tokenization, privacy defy, whatever, you 891 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,720 always end up seeing one of the top contenders being actually 892 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:25,000 built on Cosmos technology. So I think a lot of the 893 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,520 innovation has already happened within Cosmos customized for 894 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,760 those fields, right, which is also why we established this 895 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,560 track system while underneath we are a Cosmos conference, but we 896 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,480 are also tailoring it to those verticals, right to appeal also 897 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,560 to those other institutions and and participants in those areas. 898 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,360 And if you take as a tokenization alone or 899 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,480 tokenization, I think there's a lot of innovation that happened. 900 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,200 I think if the Cosmos Hub or Cosmos Labs and the general 901 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,240 stack road map I have to re listen to to various talks. 902 00:47:58,240 --> 00:47:59,880 I was just like running along back and forth. 903 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:01,640 About conference organizer. Yeah, listen. 904 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,200 But I'll take the the week a week to to go through all the 905 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,640 talks. But I think if, if there's a 906 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,320 very cohesive going back to the point earlier, cohesive attempt 907 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,680 to unify a lot of these innovations that happened, which 908 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,640 I'm sure in a lot of these projects secret, like if you 909 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,240 take privacy alone, secret network, Penumbra and Armada, 910 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,640 right, all Cosmos build. There's so much innovation for 911 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,720 many, many years that Cosmos people, Cosmos developers have 912 00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:31,720 pioneered. And I think now is the time to 913 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,920 to unify that and to turn it into a product offering and, and 914 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,160 sell it to institutions. And I think that's the plan, 915 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:37,880 right? Yeah. 916 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,520 I mean, that's what we did with Eva and we purchased the 917 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,600 underlying technology from Atmos. 918 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,520 We took that, you know, it wasn't fully formed and we spent 919 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,520 six months completely rebuilding it, but building on top of the 920 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,200 core ideas. And now we have it as a full 921 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,320 feature as part of the stack. And it's the most widely 922 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,040 requested feature of the stack that we've seen over the past, 923 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,240 you know, three to four years. So I think there's definitely 924 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:03,560 opportunity for us to do that again. 925 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:04,520 Great. Yeah. 926 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,960 One thing I was thinking about while talking about privacy is 927 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:15,320 recently there's been sort of increased awareness of through 928 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,960 the oncoming threat of quantum. We recently did a podcast with 929 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,880 John Lewick of Etherium fame and a quantum physicist who is 930 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,560 building a quantum resistant blockchain. 931 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,520 And I think the episode probably came out before this one. 932 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:37,840 But you know, John's thesis is that like, we're very close to 933 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,560 most block chains just being completely vulnerable to 934 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:46,920 quantum, quantum computers and not many block chains. 935 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,520 At least you know, of the majors they like, top 20 are taking 936 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:51,960 this very seriously in his opinion. 937 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,480 I tend to agree. As I've done more research on 938 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,640 this. Is this something you guys have 939 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,920 thought about and like our enterprise clients worried about 940 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,360 this at all? I don't. 941 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,960 Think I've ever heard an enterprise client ask me about 942 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,520 quantum computing? I mean, the truth is when people 943 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,240 say that block chains are at risk of sort of a quantum 944 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,960 innovation that could make them unsafe, what they're saying is 945 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,840 that basically RSA is going to be hacked, right? 946 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:23,160 You can essentially like a reverse engineer the prime 947 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,200 number creation that happens during this RSA encryption 948 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,880 process. And the truth is, if that 949 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,600 happens, the whole world is fucked, right? 950 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,000 Everything is encrypted via, you know, those different methods 951 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,560 and only recently have people started to move things to like 952 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,640 electrical curve encryption that, you know, is much more 953 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,880 quantum resistant. And so I think the question is 954 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,640 like, what is society going to look like after quantum 955 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,560 computing look comes out? Yeah. 956 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,600 I do think though, that most of the things that rely on 957 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,160 encryption from that are more of the same institution are, are 958 00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,240 centralized to update encryption schemes and say, you know, you 959 00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:05,120 know, banking bank database encryptions is a lot easier than 960 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,760 doing a hard like doing a hard fork on Bitcoin and having 961 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,440 everyone have to sign a transaction that moves their 962 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,320 tokens into a new address that's quantum resistant. 963 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:19,680 And so I think, I think block chains are is like a particular 964 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,440 problem that's not the same as, you know, military technology or 965 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,760 banking technology or financial markets technology. 966 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,360 There's a particular challenge with blockchain. 967 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,560 It's a coordination that's hard. And then you need to have in. 968 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,960 In most cases, at least as I understand it, you need to have 969 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,560 individual users perform an action to be shielded from any 970 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,040 attack. I mean, I think like, you know, 971 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,600 even I use like bit warden for my password protection, right? 972 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:47,520 They can't take my hopefully they can't actually see what's 973 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,080 in there, right, because it is encrypted by my my password. 974 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,440 I will have to take action. I think when it comes to Cosmos, 975 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,000 you know, this is one of the greatest things about Cosmos is 976 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:01,120 that individual chains can collapse and the overall is not 977 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:02,960 affected. This is not true for Ethereum, 978 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:04,880 right? Then if the chain collapses, 979 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,120 everything under Ethereum just completely implodes. 980 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,560 And so I think the risk factor that we have around this is a 981 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,480 lot lower because we can individually update these 982 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,920 chains, right? And because there is a history 983 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,120 and a practice of validators updating these chains 984 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,440 frequently, right? That's not true on Bitcoin, 985 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,440 right? That thing never updates pretty 986 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,080 much. And like Ethereum only really 987 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,360 updates every so often. And there's a big, there's a 988 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,560 huge marketing campaign around it every time it does. 989 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,280 And so for us, I think it's going to be a lot easier for us 990 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,200 to build whatever kind of security solution is necessary 991 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,920 to keep these block chains safe. Right. 992 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,120 Yeah. I think another thing to hear is 993 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:46,160 like that having quantum resistant block chains will 994 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,360 greatly affect their performance and that's assumed that I think 995 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,320 a lot of chains will have to deal with and find solutions 996 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,520 too. But also maybe the quantum 997 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,240 computers are running the chains in the first but. 998 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,960 I don't remember speech. Can I quantum computer run a 999 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:01,680 blockchain? I don't know. 1000 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,480 Hey, cool. I want to take an opportunity 1001 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,560 just to kind of plug our, our event in Argentina. 1002 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,560 So we're we've partnered to organize a new event series 1003 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,040 called Sovereign Sovereign Day. We did Sovereign AVM Day in in 1004 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,480 Cannes a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago, and now we're 1005 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,000 doing Sovereign Day in Argentina. 1006 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,240 So yeah, the vision here is that like everything we talked about 1007 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:29,640 right here, like we want to bring this vision of 1008 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,200 sovereignty, this kind of app chain vision to the next 1009 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,640 frontier. And Sovereign Day is kind of the 1010 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,120 place where we do that. So really excited to be doing 1011 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,960 this. And yeah, maybe talk a little 1012 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,160 bit about like what you expect, what people can expect there. 1013 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,040 Yeah, sure. I mean, also extremely excited. 1014 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,120 I think first of all, you know, the reason we wanted to do 1015 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,760 Sovereign Day and sort of the Sovereign series is because 1016 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,800 sovereignty is a concept, is something that really nicely 1017 00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,720 connects what cosmos is and always has been with what the 1018 00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,360 world wants, right? And what institutions want and 1019 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,800 what governments want, which is sovereignty, right? 1020 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,640 They want their independence. They want the freedom to grow. 1021 00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,120 They don't want to be interfered with by others. 1022 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,000 And I think this is going to be especially a good one because it 1023 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,240 is also only the second one and the last one was great. 1024 00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:20,760 So, so hopefully another good one where basically we can 1025 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,960 invite a number of the CBDC and central banks and, you know, 1026 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,840 governmental leaders of the area of Latin America to come there 1027 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,240 and talk about sovereignty, right? 1028 00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,760 Talk about their country sovereignty and talk about how 1029 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,400 that is so close to what we can offer in Cosmos in terms of 1030 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,880 technological sovereignty and where those things collide. 1031 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,640 Super excited about that. Yeah, hopefully, yeah, the 1032 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,160 second one will be as good or better than the first one. 1033 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,600 Guys, thanks so much for taking the time. 1034 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,440 Congratulate funds on yet another incredible Cosmo verse. 1035 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,520 And thanks Mag for taking part. Thank you, Sir. 1036 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:56,080 Thank you.