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This is epicenter episode 173 
with guest Olaf Carlson. 

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We 
this episode of epicenter is 

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brought to you by Jack. 
Jack's is the user-friendly 

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wallet that works across, all 
your devices and handles. 

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Bitcoin and either go to Jay, a 
double x dot IO, and embrace the

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future of cryptocurrency 
wallets. 

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I welcome to epicenter of the 
show which talks about the 

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Technologies, projects and 
startups, driving 

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decentralization, and the global
blockchain Revolution. 

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My name is Sebastian with you. 
And my name is Brian. 

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Five and Krang. 
We're here today with all of 

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Carlson. 
We, he is the founder of 

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politician and he was also the 
first employee at coinbase. 

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So he's been in this space for 
quite a long time in Poland 

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chain for those. 
You haven't seen the new state. 

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It has been covered quite a few 
times recently. 

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He's kind of a new hedge fund, 
or investment fund is investing 

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in different ico's, different 
tokens. 

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So, kind of this new Beast of 
venture capital hedge fund type 

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institution. 
So, thanks so much for coming 

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on, all of. 
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

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It's all of you've been in the 
blockchain named the Bitcoin 

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space for a very long time. 
Do you mind sharing with us? 

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Like, how do you originally hear
about it? 

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And how did you get started in 
this whole field? 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
So I heard about Bitcoin in 

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mid-2011 and pretty much was 
immediately sort of enamored 

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with the technology and kind of 
the prospects of a true 

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programmatic money source. 
That was Controlled basically, 

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by nodes on the internet, 
instead of a centralized entity,

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which I think was obviously a 
completely new type of 

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technology. 
So, I became pretty convinced 

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pretty quickly. 
That this was the most important

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technology that I might see in 
my lifetime. 

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And so, I started reading a lot 
about it and that was kind of. 

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Yeah, summer of 2011. 
And I kind of went down the 

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rabbit hole there. 
And, you know, wired most of my 

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meager life savings, being an 
indebted college student to 

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Japan, to purchase Bitcoin, 
buying Bitcoin, with cash and 

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all sorts of things like that. 
So, I decided that I liked the 

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concept so much and was so 
fascinated by it. 

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That I actually wanted to 
complete my undergraduate thesis

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on bitcoin. 
So I was going into my senior 

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year at University That that 
fall of 2011 and I decided to 

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complete my undergraduate thesis
on cryptocurrency at that time. 

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What were you majoring in 
sociology? 

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Okay interesting. 
And what was the reception by 

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your thesis supervisors that 
academics there on that topic? 

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So it took a bit of convincing 
to say the least I think at that

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time Bitcoin was incredibly 
nascent so writing a research 

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thesis right on something where 
there's clearly not a lot of 

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research from the traditional 
academic world at least. 

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Currently was a hard sell but 
that said I I do think that my 

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professors were able to wrap 
their heads around it and say, 

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you know, this is obviously very
interesting. 

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So given that we kind of grabbed
some Theory from other areas and

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from computer science and kind 
of Applied that to bitcoin. 

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So what was the approach thinks?
I mean, back back in 2011, this 

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very much sort of economic, few 
dozen economical experience or a

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computer science experiments 
through experiment. 

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What was your approach from the 
sociological point of view? 

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Yeah, I was thinking a lot about
what are the implications if a 

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kind of non-state non-bank based
internet values stored Which can

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communicate between machines 
were to grow in size by a 

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million times really? 
What would be the implications 

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there? 
And I think we've seen some of 

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this played out. 
I think I was probably mostly 

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wrong in 2011, I think it's the 
space has expanded a lot more 

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quickly than I anticipated. 
But yeah, it was it was mostly 

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kind of what are the 
implications for society. 

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And for individuals if that 
happens. 

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And then, so you went on to live
on bitcoin purely for for a 

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little while. 
Can you tell us a bit about that

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experience? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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So when I joined coinbase I 
opted into being paid 

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exclusively in Bitcoin and I was
paid in Bitcoin at coinbase for 

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three and a half years. 
So during that time, it really 

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changes your mentality because 
it actually cost money then to 

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exit Bitcoin and go. 
Two dollars. 

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So you're kind of default is is 
Bitcoin. 

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So during that time, as much as 
possible, I was trying to dog 

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food the coinbase product as 
well, and basically interact 

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with our own Merchant partners 
and like the shift debit card, 

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and use my mobile Bitcoin base 
wallet and things like that. 

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So during that time, I was 
paying my rent in Bitcoin, and I

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was purchasing a lot of my very 
large purchases, like planes 

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tickets or You know hotel rooms 
with Bitcoin then over time you 

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know it was paying my friends in
Bitcoin when they would you know

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we'd go out to some pizza or 
something. 

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I would have them by my slice 
and then I would pay them, it 

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kind of peer-to-peer in Bitcoin.
So I always try to do that as 

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much as possible. 
You know, I wasn't, you know, 

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100% on bitcoin as in, you know,
they were just pragmatic 

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expenses like, gasoline or 
Health care or something like 

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that, that you just got to pay 
in dollars. 

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So I was doing that as well. 
So you mentioned the coinbase, 

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you joined, you were the first 
employees that correct? 

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What was it like when you how do
you end up joining coinbase? 

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Great questions. 
So I was looking at the at the 

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Bitcoin space very closely 
throughout 2012 and the Bitcoin 

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price had sort of crashed so to 
speak. 

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I still felt like the technology
was going to change the world 

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and there were not that many 
companies. 

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He's at that time. 
There was not a lot of venture 

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investment in companies and a 
lot of the companies that did 

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exist, I didn't see a great 
future for having interacted 

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with a lot of them either. 
You know, by purchasing Bitcoin,

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I didn't feel like there was a 
sophisticated player in the 

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space yet. 
So coinbase came out and I was 

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actually the 30th user of 
coinbase. 

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So I was very early to their 
website and I liked the product.

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A lot. 
I basically thought that it was 

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sophisticated and it was easy, 
you know, I didn't have to do 

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anything complicated and at this
is going to sound silly to 

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listeners now, but I was able to
purchase Bitcoin online and that

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was something that coinbase sort
of uniquely enabled. 

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And at that time, the easiest 
way to buy Bitcoin was really to

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go to a physical location with 
cash and purchase it from 

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another person or deposit cash. 
Into someone's bank account. 

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Now, with coinbase, I was able 
to purchase using a bank account

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just over my internet connection
and that is actually really hard

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from coin basis perspective to 
accept those payments via the 

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internet, but they were able to 
do it. 

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I receive my Bitcoin was able to
transfer it off site and 

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basically, yeah was sold. 
So I cold email jobs at 

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coinbase.com in about February 
2013. 

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And I received a reply from 
Fred, the co-founder and about 

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15 minutes and the rest is 
history. 

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I guess I went in and met Brian 
and Fred at the time they were 

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working out of an apartment in 
Soma and had had maybe a seed 

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round of funding about five 
hundred thousand dollars or 

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something like that, spoke to 
them for a very long time and I 

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think there was a good fit. 
I really liked them quite a bit 

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and I thought they had a very 
long term vision. 

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You know, for building sort of 
an Empire, which is what I 

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wanted to be a part of. 
So join coinbase is the first 

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employee and we raised that 
series a round of five million 

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dollars from Union Square 
Ventures, probably two or three 

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months later. 
And with regards to that, that 

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vision and so the Enthusiast the
enthusiasm that you had back 

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then, but like many of us first 
coming into Bitcoin we're pretty

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enthusiastic. 
Do you think that they've 

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overtime stay true to that 
Vision? 

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Yeah, so not, you know, a ton of
people know Brian, from coinbase

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really well. 
He is more dedicated to Bringing

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cryptocurrency to everyone in 
the world then. 

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One I've ever met. 
So I think that Brian being the 

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CEO and founder. 
You know, and really being the 

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person who is driving the 
culture of the company driving, 

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the vision of the company, he is
extremely focused and dedicated 

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on bringing this 100% to the 
mainstream and getting Bitcoin 

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on every mobile phone in the 
world. 

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In everyone's pocket, whether 
they have a bank account or not.

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and really making sure that all 
of the tooling around 

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cryptocurrency exists, so that 
people can really gain more 

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freedom than they might have 
otherwise by being able to both 

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potentially control their own 
finances, as well as interact 

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with new types of products that 
maybe weren't possible before 

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cryptocurrency was created, So 
Congress has been going through 

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a lot of changes to. 
I mean, recently, they've become

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more interested in your theory. 
Mm, they just launched the 

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exchange. 
It seems like they are kind of 

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getting interested in the whole 
token sales Ico real mom. 

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What's your view of where the 
company is at and where it is 

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going. 
So first we actually had to tell

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it come to the office and sort 
I've tried to recruit him in 

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2013, turned out to be a great 
thing that he did not join us. 

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Because I'm very happy that he 
went on to create a theory of 

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instead but we read the white 
paper when that came out kind of

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the day it came out and I was 
kind of following the project 

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the whole time but it was really
once that the network launched 

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is that we started taking it 
more seriously. 

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And during that time, I was in a
role at coinbase where I was 

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doing work, that was a bit more 
experimental and I got very, 

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very interested in the etherium 
ecosystem. 

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And just what was possible with 
this turn complete scripting 

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language and I realized that it 
was really enabling a whole 

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Suite of applications that we're
much easier or to do with 

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aetherium or just straight 
impossible to do with it. 

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So you know, really one of my 
last pushes at coinbase was to 

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get them to adopt a theorem. 
This wasn't just me. 

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I think Fred the co-founder was 
was also very interested in this

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handful of other people on the 
team. 

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But I do think there were a 
handful of people to company 

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that we're really pushing it 
that once coinbase adopted 

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aetherium. 
That's when I really realized 

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that the timing and sort of just
as General market was ready for 

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something like Polly chain and 
that was a lot of the 

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inspiration for leaving coinbase
in order to start polishing. 

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But I think overall you know, is
he is serum, ecosystem is really

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active right now and there's a 
lot of experimentation 

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happening. 
There's a lot of interesting 

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work happening and smart 
contracts and kind of 

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experimental applications run 
through smart contracts. 

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So if you're in the crypto 
space, And you're not paying 

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attention to etherium. 
You're missing a lot of where 

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the activity is and so coinbase.
We've always been you know, 

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whether it's through our 
products. 

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Not usually through the products
but more the team looking at 

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that Cutting Edge and I think in
you know aetherium and ico's and

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just kind of tokenization and a 
theorem as a token platform 

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we've been thinking about that 
stuff a lot. 

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So yeah, I think it takes a 
while. 

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Oh sometimes for coin basis at a
very massive scale so to ship 

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products. 25 million users 
safely is difficult. 

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So internally a lot of the 
discussion is usually months and

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months ahead of actual product 
launches That you mentioned and 

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you know, we can probably come 
back to this later on the show. 

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But you mentioned that a lot of 
the action is in the etherium 

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space right now. 
On anyone not watching the 

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Ethereal space is missing out on
a lot. 

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I'm curious. 
I'm, you know, I definitely 

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agree with that. 
I mean, we were just that head 

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confit weeks ago here in Paris 
and a lot of the enthusiastic 

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00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,600
murmur the enthusiasm around 
aetherium sort of, you know, 

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Echoes the enthusiasm that we've
seen at a, you know, at the 

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Bitcoin. 
Foundation conference in 

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Amsterdam, or any of the other 
other conferences around that 

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time. 
What are your feelings about the

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Bitcoin space right now, where 
it's at? 

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As opposed to like where it may 
have been a few years ago, you 

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know. 
I think Bitcoin is really 

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different in that because it 
doesn't really enable Smart 

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contracts. 
There isn't an interesting 

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00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,100
application layer that is on the
protocol. 

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It's really more. 
About companies, you know 

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private companies building on 
top of Bitcoin. 

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I think historically Bitcoin 
companies have not been 

229
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:13,300
successful. 
If you take like a large swath, 

230
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:17,000
there's been one point four 
billion dollars from Venture 

231
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,800
investors invested in Bitcoin 
companies and I think I can 

232
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,600
count on one hand, the companies
that really have objectively 

233
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,600
sort of performed. 
Well, and maybe I can count them

234
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,700
on one finger. 
Even If we're talking about 

235
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:39,700
coinbase so I think you know 
there has been not as much 

236
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:42,100
adoption in a lot of the area's 
people originally. 

237
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,700
Thought there might be like say 
e-commerce you know, Merchants 

238
00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:50,500
payments even remittances 
peer-to-peer remittances for 

239
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,300
example, I don't think have 
moved very quickly. 

240
00:15:53,700 --> 00:16:00,000
So all that combined with, you 
know, a quick sort of toxic 

241
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,500
meltdown. 
Within the community around 

242
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:05,500
debates around the best way to 
scale. 

243
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:12,000
The protocol to me, has has 
created a vacuum for actually, 

244
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,700
something like aetherium to come
in and offer, what I view as a 

245
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:21,000
lot more Innovation, where it's 
not just competing with existing

246
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,800
business models. 
It's not a better remittance or 

247
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,500
a better bank transfer. 
It's actually enabling new 

248
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:29,500
behaviors that were not possible
before when I'm playing 

249
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:31,100
Blackjack against a smart 
contract. 

250
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,400
Tract, that's new to me. 
That's interesting. 

251
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,800
And to me that I see that as 
kind of the tip of the iceberg, 

252
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,600
right? 
And you know, this, this 

253
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,500
blackjack game might be a 
prototype, it's slow, its maybe 

254
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:49,500
a little buggy but it is 
enabling something that just 

255
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,800
simply was not possible before 
and that's why it's so 

256
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,500
interesting to me. 
So I think I think the Bitcoin 

257
00:16:55,500 --> 00:17:00,100
space is despite the price 
Rising I think is stagnating a 

258
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,000
little bit. 
And I think Bitcoin is 

259
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,500
increasingly becoming mostly 
sort of Annie gold or store 

260
00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:11,000
value and like you know, 
developments like the Bitcoin 

261
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:17,099
ETF if that were to be passed 
with sort of solidify that a bit

262
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:19,500
more. 
So I think Bitcoin is very 

263
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:23,800
interesting still as eagled and 
as a store of value because 

264
00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:26,400
they're, you know, I don't mean 
to belittle that that is a 

265
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,900
massive use case but you know, 
I'm increasingly becoming 

266
00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:34,600
Skeptical of of short or midterm
Bitcoin. 

267
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,100
Empowering a lot of the original
use cases that people imagined. 

268
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,500
Yeah, it totally agree. 
I mean it definitely has sort of

269
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:45,100
solidified its position as 
equal. 

270
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:47,700
Now it's unclear where that will
go. 

271
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,700
Now you know, with with all 
these debates around block size 

272
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,500
and what having just the 
inability for the community, I 

273
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:56,600
think just to come to consensus 
around like these massive 

274
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,800
issues, you know, and that on 
top of Bitcoins and ability to 

275
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:09,000
to to build these other these 
other interesting applications 

276
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,300
that we're now seeing with 
etherium or in other types of 

277
00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:16,900
protocols. 
So, I mean, I I'm still 

278
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:22,900
optimistic that, you know, the 
Bitcoin protocol will will last 

279
00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:28,700
and will hold this position as 
with a the leading 

280
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:35,400
cryptocurrency for For payments.
Now whether those will weather 

281
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,800
will enable micropayments or 
not? 

282
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,000
Is one question, you know, 
whether it'll be like 

283
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,600
micropayment enabling platform 
or simply doing settlements and 

284
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,900
as any gold. 
But, but yeah, I do also have 

285
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:54,200
reservations like yourself. 
And I think, I think Brian 

286
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,000
probably had similar views. 
What's been interesting is I've 

287
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,500
been recently was too Bunch of 
times is credit is like huge 

288
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,300
discussions. 
And one of the things that was 

289
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,000
what was interesting when, you 
know, when I got into Bitcoin 

290
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,200
where it was like me 2013 and 
then people were saying why go 

291
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,000
Bitcoin is you know you can do 
transfer right like for 

292
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,100
basically nothing to anybody in 
the world and it arrives 

293
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,000
instantly right? 
And then you people always say 

294
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,600
no they credit cards are so 
expensive in the ripping people 

295
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,700
off at session and now you 
having these discussions and 

296
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:33,100
people are like no It was never 
supposed to be cheap, that's 

297
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,900
what I find. 
So fascinating about this whole 

298
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:40,300
debate, I was watching that old 
Twitter storm and to see people 

299
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:47,200
totally dismiss the instant 
micropayment, you know, buying 

300
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,800
coffee with Bitcoin, use case, 
when those same people probably 

301
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,600
though, three years ago or were 
touting that as the Mage major 

302
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,500
functionality and feature is 
just, it's incredible to me. 

303
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,400
Well, I mean, I think there's a 
couple things there. 

304
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:10,500
One is, there's there's I think 
genuinely perhaps unforeseen 

305
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:14,300
concerns around the scaling of 
the technology. 

306
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:18,000
So I think a lot of the people 
saying this is going to be 

307
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,700
better than Western Union. 
This is going to be micro 

308
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:24,600
payments. 
I think we, you know, some 

309
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,300
people weren't really thinking 
about how scaling would be 

310
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:31,900
addressed because, you know, 
even to To reach a global scale.

311
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:36,100
You need to move to these lower 
layer. 2 networks, like 

312
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:37,800
lightning like the lightning 
Network. 

313
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,400
So I think lightning network 
will work. 

314
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:46,400
Eventually the thing is that 
there's a huge amount of 

315
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,000
cognitive dissonance right. 
When, when you signed up for 

316
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,700
this project, you invested money
in this project, Etc. 

317
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:58,000
That says, oh we're building a 
Global electronic cash Network 

318
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:03,800
and suddenly it Dollar to send a
payment on that Network and it 

319
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,700
didn't used to. 
I think there's a lot of 

320
00:21:05,708 --> 00:21:09,200
cognitive dissonance where you 
want to kind of justify it or 

321
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,400
say that it's all going to as 
planned. 

322
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,400
When I think the reality is no 
one is happy, right? 

323
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,100
That it costs a dollar instead 
of a penny to, you know, 

324
00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,900
initiate a Bitcoin transaction. 
But, you know, I think it's just

325
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:28,500
something we need to deal with, 
and it kind of accept the 

326
00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:33,000
reality of, instead of trying to
Redefine the goalposts, right, 

327
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,300
and change in our heads, what 
the goal actually was. 

328
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,300
So, yeah, I definitely. 
Yeah, yeah. 

329
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:43,700
And another, another, another 
thing that some guy was arguing 

330
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,300
was that do usability, right? 
She was like, oh, it was never 

331
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,000
supposed to be more user 
friendly than Fiat currencies. 

332
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,700
Like this is no chance that 
cryptocurrency can ever be more 

333
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,000
useful if your current what. 
And I also remember, right? 

334
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,600
Like, 2013 people with always 
will show like, look, if you 

335
00:22:00,608 --> 00:22:04,300
want to Flight with a credit 
card, you have to give all this 

336
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:07,900
information address, Etc. 
How easy is it with Bitcoin to 

337
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,300
scan a QR code now? 
People say, no, no. 

338
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:14,600
It's not supposed to be 
user-friendly, moving the 

339
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,700
goalposts. 
Yeah. 

340
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,400
So yeah, you you said you you 
recently left Congress has 

341
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,000
started polishing, what is Paul 
chain and what's its structure 

342
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,300
like? 
Yeah, so Polly chain. 

343
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:33,700
Manages a hedge fund that 
invests exclusively in 

344
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:36,500
protocols. 
So we don't hold shares of any 

345
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,000
companies. 
We only invest in, you know, 

346
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,100
cryptocurrencies blockchain 
based assets and other kind of 

347
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:49,900
protocol tokens. 
And when you, when you say hedge

348
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:54,200
fund can for people who aren't 
familiar with this, that, how 

349
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,200
does the hedge fund work? 
Yeah. 

350
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,200
So basically a hedge fund has 
number of partners that all pool

351
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,600
money and then a manager, 
basically invest that money on 

352
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,700
behalf of all of the partners. 
And so, so that manager 

353
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:14,900
generally has very unique 
strategy that that's sort of 

354
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,900
uncorrelated With the market or 
you know is is a better. 

355
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,800
It's better at generating alpha 
or value than something like 

356
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:29,500
passively investing in the SNP 
or passively. 

357
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,000
In this case may be passively 
buying Bitcoin. 

358
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,900
And I mean, we're going to get a
little bit more into the 

359
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,800
nitty-gritty of the investment 
strategy, but I guess you can 

360
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,900
set contextualized this a little
bit, right? 

361
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,600
One of the challenges we've had 
conversations. 

362
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,100
I think also with investors 
about this long time ago is said

363
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:54,600
to be seized for example are and
allowed really or at least for 

364
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,900
the most part to invest in these
assets, right? 

365
00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,900
So it's kind of this space. 
Also where institutional 

366
00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:05,500
investors existing Institutional
investors can't really compete 

367
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,900
who I think institutional 
investors you know then there's 

368
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:15,000
a lot of different groups of 
institutional investors. 

369
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,000
So there's Venture investors, 
there's family offices. 

370
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,500
There's institutions and 
endowments and these are all 

371
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,900
really different groups of 
people that actually have very 

372
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:31,100
different needs and different 
legal obligations and things 

373
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:35,500
like that. 
So I think we focus a lot in the

374
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:39,400
crypto World on Venture Capital,
but venture capital is actually 

375
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,500
pretty small portion of just 
kind of the overall investment 

376
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:45,200
money that people are trying to 
deploy. 

377
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,200
I think if you have very high 
conviction as one of, as a 

378
00:24:50,208 --> 00:24:54,100
manager of one of these firms in
general, it is possible to go to

379
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:58,400
your partners and or your LPS, 
the limited partners. 

380
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,300
And convince them that this is 
such a big opportunity. 

381
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,400
Petit that we're actually going 
to participate here and I think 

382
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,400
it's perhaps somewhat unusual 
for Venture investors to become 

383
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,100
Partners in a fund but that's 
what has happened with Polly 

384
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:19,700
chain because there's High 
conviction here and it you know,

385
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:23,400
Polly chain, as you said, can be
sort of an Avenue for these 

386
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,000
investors to gain exposure to 
this asset class without having 

387
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000
to purchase them directly. 
So, when you say that the 

388
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,300
politician will invest in 
protocols, give us some examples

389
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:39,400
of types of protocols that you 
may invest in and types of 

390
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,800
technologies that you wouldn't 
invest in then. 

391
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:46,600
Yeah, absolutely. 
So I can only talk about 

392
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,300
Investments. 
We've made that are that are 

393
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:53,500
public but you know, in the 
portfolio we of course hold the 

394
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:58,200
much larger cap things like 
Bitcoin and aetherium. 

395
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:04,700
We also are invested in a lot of
smaller more emerging protocols.

396
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:14,100
So for example, mkr or maker is 
a CRC 20 token on top of the 

397
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,900
theorem that we made sort of a 
public investment in. 

398
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,600
We are also invested in things 
that aren't built on ethereum. 

399
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,400
So for example, tase owes, which
is a also a turing-complete 

400
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,900
Blockchain like etherium, but it
has some really interesting 

401
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,900
qualities that differentiate it 
and I think provide some 

402
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,500
usefulness outside of what 
etherium does. 

403
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,600
So it's really all over the 
place. 

404
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,500
Anything that is based on the 
blockchain, we can invest in 

405
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:46,800
anything. 
That's kind of an open source 

406
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,800
protocol. 
You'll invest in like, low 

407
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,100
level, protocols, like etherium,
but also applications built on 

408
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:57,200
top. 
Yes of those protocols. 

409
00:26:57,300 --> 00:26:59,600
Yeah. 
Well, and we Yeah, any anything 

410
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,700
that sort of is is because I, 
you know, even those 

411
00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:05,100
higher-level protocols. 
I guess I used the word protocol

412
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:07,600
a little Loosely here. 
But yeah, we'll invest in 

413
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,100
application-specific tokens as 
well as low level protocols, 

414
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:14,600
okay. 
So you mentioned before that, 

415
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:18,400
you were just a wee visit baby. 
If we were talking before that 

416
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,700
you were raising, some money was
coming from bzees that 

417
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,700
essentially use poaching as a 
sort of Avenue to invest in 

418
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,000
tokens. 
So how much, you know, The size 

419
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,400
of your font now, and where 
would you like to take that? 

420
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,500
And do you, you think much of it
is going to come from VCS who 

421
00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:39,900
are interested in this space or 
you more? 

422
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,800
What kind of investors are you 
looking for? 

423
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,900
Yeah, so we currently have 15 
million under management 15 

424
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:55,700
million u.s. dollars. 
I think this fund will be capped

425
00:27:56,300 --> 00:28:01,400
at some level. 
Some it's hard to say exactly 

426
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,200
because as the space expands it 
actually becomes possible to 

427
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,100
manage more and more money. 
But in this case, you know, a 

428
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:13,300
lot of funds hedge funds will 
grow to billions of dollars in 

429
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,200
the current with the current 
size of the space. 

430
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,300
This funds strategy would not 
scale to that. 

431
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,800
So this fund will be capped at 
some level. 

432
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:27,700
I think most of the investors 
that are going to invest in 

433
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:31,600
apology and fund are not VCS. 
And like I said, you know, most 

434
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,000
startups are familiar 
exclusively with Venture 

435
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,200
investors but I'm actually I 
work a lot more closely with 

436
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,200
fund allocators. 
So these are in general, family 

437
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,600
offices. 
So family office is basically a 

438
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,300
very micro investment firm set 
up by a high, net worth 

439
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:51,300
individual to manage their 
assets. 

440
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,600
And family offices don't have 
the kind of resources in general

441
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,500
that a venture investor does. 
So family offices, don't take 

442
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:03,100
seats on boards, they generally 
don't want voting rights. 

443
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,300
They want to be passive 
investors. 

444
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,700
So family. 
Offices are some of the most 

445
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,700
common Partners in hedge funds. 
Those are some of the most 

446
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:14,500
common fund allocators, 
especially for emerging funds, 

447
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:20,400
you know, once once we have say,
two year track record at that 

448
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,300
point, we can start Talking to 
more large-scale allocators and 

449
00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:30,300
these are things like endowments
or foundations managing money. 

450
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:34,500
But generally speaking Venture, 
investors are actually not who 

451
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,600
we're talking to because Venture
investors aren't usually, who 

452
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,800
can allocate two phones. 
Yeah, I mean, of course is also 

453
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:46,100
a little bit of a bizarre 
situation with a venture 

454
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:48,800
investor because they're getting
money from somebody else. 

455
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,900
And then then they take their 
like tea, For making the right 

456
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:56,800
allocations but then they give 
it to you and yummy invested and

457
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,300
you take another fee, right? 
So it's hard to justify that 

458
00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:04,300
even yeah, exactly. 
Let's take a short break to talk

459
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:06,600
about Jax. 
Jax is your wallet, your 

460
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,700
complete user interface to 
cover, all your blocks your 

461
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:11,200
needs. 
I've been using it not been 

462
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000
loving and track supports a lot 
of different cryptocurrencies, 

463
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,100
suppose Bitcoin Easter like 
Colony. 

464
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:20,500
Theorem classic is in cash or 
grep and they're adding many 

465
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:23,900
more keep the responding to 
users needs that with Jackson. 

466
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:27,400
Nice thing is that you can 
manage all of those coins within

467
00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,800
a single wallet and you are in 
control of your own private 

468
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,600
Keys. 
They're not on their server. 

469
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,100
Is a single 12 word see that you
can use to back up your wallet, 

470
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,800
all your coins and sync them 
across different devices. 

471
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:44,200
Talk about devices, they're on 
pretty much any device that you 

472
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,900
can think of you can get it on 
PC Mac. 

473
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:50,500
Linux you can get on smartphones
like Android and Apple and 

474
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:52,600
iPhone. 
You can get it on tablets or 

475
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,600
even there. 
Even browser extensions for 

476
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,500
Chrome and Firefox. 
And on top of that in Jack's, 

477
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:00,700
you can actually change the 
different cryptocurrencies for 

478
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:04,400
each other, because they've 
integrated, As shape-shift and 

479
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,100
more Partnerships and 
Integrations, are coming down 

480
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:09,100
the line. 
If you have the 17 that are 

481
00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:12,300
going to make Jack's even 
better, so Jax is really making 

482
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,400
blockchain and cryptocurrencies 
accessible for the masses easy 

483
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,100
to use for the masses. 
Make sure you sure to get your 

484
00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:20,400
own Jack's wallet at Jack's at 
I/O. 

485
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,000
We can get it from any of the 
app stores. 

486
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,900
You are using would like to 
thank Jacks for their support of

487
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,100
epicenter. 
How would you summarize? 

488
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:32,500
The investment thesis of poly 
chain? 

489
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,100
So really broadly speaking and I
think many listeners might kind 

490
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:42,300
of agree with this assessment. 
So the market capitalization of 

491
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:46,400
all blockchain, based assets has
grown precipitously. 

492
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:52,100
So when I wrote my undergraduate
thesis and published at, I 

493
00:31:52,108 --> 00:31:57,300
think, you know, early 2012, the
market capitalization was 50 

494
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,900
million dollars of, basically, 
all blockchain based assets. 

495
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:06,800
And now it's closed. 
Zur to 25 billion dollars or, 

496
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,600
you know, a 500x increase in 
value. 

497
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,100
And that's been fantastic growth
over the last five and five 

498
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:18,100
years. 
But I think that we will 

499
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:22,700
continue to see you know, 
immense growth in this space. 

500
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:27,000
So someday I believe that there 
will be trillions of dollars 

501
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,900
stored in blockchain based 
assets and some of this will be 

502
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,900
sort of native or endogenous. 
To the blockchain. 

503
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:37,400
Some of this will be real world 
or more traditional types of 

504
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,400
assets, encoded, into the 
blockchain. 

505
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,800
So we're talking about a area 
that is extremely nascent and I 

506
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,800
believe will grow substantially 
over the next say five or ten 

507
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,200
years. 
That's pretty easy to see. 

508
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,700
I think a lot of people see that
more specifically though. 

509
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,000
You know, how do you invest once
you see that? 

510
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,500
So we're very much interested in
the what I would call sort of 

511
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,900
the decentralized or the web 
three internet stack. 

512
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,200
So when you think about Twitter,
the protocol competing with 

513
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,500
Twitter that company you know, 
that's really exciting to me. 

514
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,100
And kind of a peer-to-peer 
sensorless version of Twitter is

515
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:26,800
really exciting to me. 
That's totally Global and not 

516
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,500
run by specific company but 
rather is it just completely 

517
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:32,200
protocol. 
Now the issue there though is 

518
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,900
that Or the company. 
And the platform is built on a 

519
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,200
massive stack of web 
technologies that are often sort

520
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,400
of invisible to the end user. 
So this is like HTTP and and 

521
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,500
kind of being at the browser. 
This is SSL so that your traffic

522
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:52,500
is encrypted, this is just kind 
of your server stack. 

523
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,000
So you're interacting with like 
a Twitter data center. 

524
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,700
You also have a stable login and
and you know identity and 

525
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:04,800
reputation on Twitter. 
All of these are are components 

526
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,500
of this internet stack. 
That was built long before 

527
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,699
Twitter and that Twitter sort of
had to combine in modular pieces

528
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:14,500
in order to get the Twitter 
platform into place. 

529
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,600
So I think, I think it's a 
little early right now. 

530
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,000
For something like Twitter, the 
protocol, the reason being that 

531
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,400
we need things like ipfs and 
file coin. 

532
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,199
Things like Gollum you know 
which which is a computational 

533
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,800
Marketplace. 
Things like you port and kind of

534
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,500
identity and reputation systems 
we need, you know, projects like

535
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:41,100
meta, mask that enable you to 
interact with smart contracts in

536
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:43,300
the browser. 
You really need this. 

537
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:46,199
These kind of low-level 
infrastructure and kind of 

538
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,600
middleware layer to rebuild that
whole web. 

539
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,500
You know the decentralized stack
or the web three stack, which 

540
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,199
kind of mimics. 
A lot of the centralized web 

541
00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:00,200
stack and you need to be able to
combine all of that stack in in 

542
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:03,400
kind of modular Parts. 
In order to get It the more 

543
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,800
emergent Behavior like Twitter 
the protocol so to us you know 

544
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,800
projects that are enabling that 
distributed or decentralized 

545
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,400
web, stack are very very 
interesting. 

546
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,600
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I mean, one of the things that I

547
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,000
often say to people, when 
comparing so traditional web 

548
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,000
Stacks to decentralized 
technology stack is, if you can 

549
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,700
look at just about any type of 
application, that we built a web

550
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:36,200
Stacks say in e-commerce website
and, you know, you have a an 

551
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,900
array of stacks, right? 
So you can build e-commerce 

552
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:43,400
websites on like Magento PHP, 
MySQL, Apache, Apache Linux. 

553
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,600
You know, you can do, you can do
it, like, maybe on like an asp. 

554
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:48,900
Back in the other Stacks that 
are there and are valid and test

555
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:51,300
it and there they work and 
people use the massively. 

556
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:54,600
But in the blockchain space, you
know, there are applications 

557
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,800
that are use cases. 
There are types of things that 

558
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,600
people are doing but the stacks 
are not. 

559
00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:03,800
Well, defined interoperable like
the at the different layers, are

560
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,600
not always super interoperable 
together and a lot of the 

561
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,500
Technologies are still kind of 
beer in a very nascent state. 

562
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:16,000
So I'm really interested in 
seeing those Stacks starting to 

563
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,200
Starting to form. 
And, you know, these, you know, 

564
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,900
like Technologies coming 
together, around specific use 

565
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:30,200
cases of people pointing to 
those, as as sort of references 

566
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,600
and how you build a certain type
of app blockchain. 

567
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,600
Do you see some of that starting
to emerge? 

568
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,400
You know, do your other 
applications where you can see 

569
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:44,200
sort of stacks emerging. 
Yeah, and I, you know, I almost 

570
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,500
wouldn't call them applications 
because I think Applications 

571
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:52,100
sort of assumes a what I would 
call like it an average or 

572
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:55,200
normal and user. 
I think we're looking at right 

573
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,700
now more like middleware. 
So for example, something like 

574
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:04,400
Gollum which is a peer-to-peer 
Marketplace for computation 

575
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:08,800
powered by an arc 20 token on 
etherium called GNT or Golem 

576
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:14,400
Network token. 
I think that Golem to me won't 

577
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,300
really be used by sort of 
People. 

578
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:21,100
I've you Golem as being a 
developer tool so that a 

579
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:25,700
developer can build, you know, 
an emergent kind of end-user 

580
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:31,000
application and I think, you 
know, file coin, which powers 

581
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,200
ipfs, or the interplanetary file
system, which is a distributed 

582
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,700
server architecture. 
I think similarly, you know, I 

583
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:42,600
see ipfs really being a tool for
developers to build more 

584
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,700
complicated emergent 
applications. 

585
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,000
So I think we're seeing that. 
Kind of middleware layer, you 

586
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,400
know, and you're seeing that on 
the not just on the kind of web 

587
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,300
3 side but also on the on the 
financial side. 

588
00:37:53,300 --> 00:38:01,000
So I think maker maker Dow or 
mkr, you know, the ultimate goal

589
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,700
of that project is to build a 
stable cryptocurrency. 

590
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:10,000
That's fully decentralized and 
that to me, is sort of the 

591
00:38:10,008 --> 00:38:13,700
equivalent of the kind of 
financial middleware, right? 

592
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:19,300
So the stable coin, In itself 
isn't necessarily the end 

593
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:22,100
application. 
It's really that the stable coin

594
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:25,100
stays stable, while you're in, 
escrow waiting for an 

595
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:29,400
e-commerce, purchase to complete
or while you're giving out a 

596
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,600
loan, right? 
That that the actual asset you 

597
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,700
loaned isn't changing in value 
for the duration of that loan. 

598
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,100
So to me, I view a stable coin, 
also sort of as, as that kind of

599
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:46,500
lower level or middleware layer 
that enables more advanced and 

600
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,200
Use your applications like 
peer-to-peer loans, Peter Port 

601
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,400
Credit things like that. 
Yeah okay that makes sense. 

602
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,800
So then you know the stack could
be composed of you know 

603
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,900
different front-end applications
friends, tools some storage you 

604
00:39:00,908 --> 00:39:03,600
know a coin you know smart 
Contracting language. 

605
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,000
And with that you can build 
perhaps some sort of application

606
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,900
like on a Fidelity point system 
or like a e-commerce payment 

607
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:13,700
system or something like that. 
You wrote Somewhere, I right 

608
00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:16,600
that you that you wrote that 
we're moving towards a system. 

609
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:18,600
Are smart contracts for like, 
Lego pieces. 

610
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,100
And in this, you know, if we, if
you sort of take this idea of, 

611
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:28,700
you know, Stacks, what type of 
pieces than could we see 

612
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,300
emerging within those different 
application type. 

613
00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:36,700
Yeah. 
So and and the context there 

614
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:41,200
was, we were talking about the 
Dow and kind of, you know, what 

615
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,500
went wrong there and I think 
part of it was and like, the 

616
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:49,400
first person that really Talk to
me about this eloquently was 

617
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:52,600
Nicolae. 
Who's the lead developer behind 

618
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,400
maker? 
I think you know, thinking about

619
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:01,100
the architecture of smart 
contracts is really important 

620
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:05,000
and so when you're building a 
traditional web application, you

621
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,400
generally want to architect 
these days, they kind of most 

622
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,300
premier way to do this is a 
service-oriented architecture or

623
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,300
SOA. 
And this is where you know 

624
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,100
you're Architecture of your 
application isn't on one 

625
00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:23,400
monolithic code base, but is 
rather on different modular 

626
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,500
parts that each serve a very 
precise function, but that can 

627
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:30,700
all interact. 
This means that if one modular 

628
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:35,900
piece fails like maybe only your
site's API goes down but the web

629
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:38,000
interface stays out for all your
users. 

630
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,400
So this is the the benefit of a 
service-oriented architecture. 

631
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,700
Is that you don't get 
catastrophic, system-wide 

632
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:47,900
failure. 
You know, an individual piece 

633
00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:50,500
can be upgraded or fail or 
things like that without 

634
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,700
bringing down the whole system. 
So when we're thinking about how

635
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:58,200
to build really complex smart 
contract bill, based 

636
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:04,900
applications, like for example a
user, you know, controlled and 

637
00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:07,800
owned Venture firm, which is 
what the Dow was trying to do. 

638
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:13,700
I don't think on principle, you 
know, that that is an untenable 

639
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:15,400
idea. 
I think it's technically 

640
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,500
possible. it's just a question 
of how to architect that, so 

641
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:24,600
that it's kind of the safest and
I think the Lego pieces metaphor

642
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,600
resonates with me because each 
smart contract can perform a 

643
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,200
very specific function can be 
extremely battle-tested, you 

644
00:41:34,207 --> 00:41:38,000
know, both in the field as well 
as by security researchers, it 

645
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,100
can be very carefully audited 
and just used widely such that 

646
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:47,500
we can feel confident that that 
very specific small All modular 

647
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:52,600
smart contract works, and from 
their smart contracts can be 

648
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,500
combined to build more 
complicated. 

649
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:57,200
Emergent Behavior, sort of like,
Lego pieces. 

650
00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:01,100
Each individual piece is very 
simple, but when you combine 

651
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:03,900
them, of course, you get sort of
very quickly and exponentially 

652
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:05,800
Rising number of possible 
combinations. 

653
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:11,700
So I think that's probably where
smart contract. 

654
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,000
You know, smart contracts will 
go in the future. 

655
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,300
Is it kind of more modular set 
of very well battle? 

656
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,300
Contracts. 
But we'll see. 

657
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:21,800
I think these things are so 
emergent. 

658
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,900
It's hard to know. 
Sometimes there's been a lot of 

659
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,200
this kind of fundamental 
technology built in the past 

660
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,500
right that powers the internet 
HTTP SMTP Etc. 

661
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,000
And it seems like the pattern in
the past was that those 

662
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:40,200
protocols weren't monetized but 
that then on top of it, you 

663
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,700
know, people will build Gmail 
and Google and Twitter and all 

664
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:47,800
of those things and those would 
turn Out to be big businesses. 

665
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:53,200
So here right when we're looking
at what you were talking about, 

666
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,700
now, those would be projects 
that are kind of more building 

667
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:02,900
replacing these fundamental 
protocol layers and then you 

668
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,300
know, you pointed out that okay,
once those pieces are in place 

669
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,900
it would be possible to build 
you know, decentralized Gmail 

670
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:14,500
decentralize Twitter, Etc. 
Do you think that in the end we 

671
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:18,800
will do see a kind of issue. 
We're in the money is made into 

672
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,100
value is created towards the 
protocol. 

673
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:26,300
Or do you also feel like that 
the biggest Returns the end will

674
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:30,100
be on the level of these 
applications that will be on top

675
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:32,300
but it's just, you know, it's 
too early right now. 

676
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,400
So I have pretty strong opinion 
on this. 

677
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:40,600
I really do think that, in this 
case, the value will be created 

678
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,400
at the protocol level and not at
the application layer. 

679
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,400
I don't think this is an 
entirely new idea. 

680
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:51,600
If you look historically, the 
best bet in the entire Bitcoin 

681
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,900
space was Bitcoin, the protocol,
not any of these specific 

682
00:43:56,900 --> 00:44:00,800
companies built on top even 
coinbase which saved for the 

683
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,600
seed round investors in 
coinbase. 

684
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,500
That has been absolutely 
fabulous return but when they 

685
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:10,700
did that seed round Bitcoin was 
about five dollars and if they 

686
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:13,400
would have purchased Bitcoin I 
think they would see you pretty 

687
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,400
similar fabulous return. 
So too. 

688
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,600
This isn't a totally new idea 
you know and the best investment

689
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,500
in the theorem ecosystem 
obviously is ether has or has 

690
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:30,900
been either historically more so
than it was any investment in 

691
00:44:30,900 --> 00:44:32,800
any private company built on 
ethereum. 

692
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,700
So I think this is starting to 
be empirically true. 

693
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:42,200
I think looking forward when you
can bet on the protocol because 

694
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,100
all applications built on top of
the protocol require you, To 

695
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:50,900
actually utilize that protocol. 
I think this means that really 

696
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:56,100
disproportionate value goes to 
that protocol layer more so than

697
00:44:56,100 --> 00:45:00,500
the applications built on top of
it and Union Square Ventures, 

698
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:04,800
who's want to poly. 
Chains investors, they have a 

699
00:45:04,808 --> 00:45:09,700
strong thesis around this, as 
well, and Joel, man Eggroll who 

700
00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:11,800
works at us, V, and is a great 
thinker. 

701
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,900
In this space, wrote a post 
about this called fat, Al's in 

702
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:21,300
this is about how value in this 
space is created more. 

703
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:23,100
So at the protocol layer than 
the application layer. 

704
00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:29,100
And what I would suggest is, if 
you look back in time at sort of

705
00:45:29,107 --> 00:45:31,700
the emergence of just, the 
normal web, the normal internet.

706
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:36,400
We might think of the best 
investments as Google Facebook 

707
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,400
Amazon. 
Things like that. 

708
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,600
I would challenge that if it 
were possible to own say 1% of 

709
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,400
the TCP IP protocol that that 
actually Lee would have been the

710
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,100
best investment you could have 
made because the TCP IP protocol

711
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:58,500
or the SMTP protocol or whatever
it is grows in use for each 

712
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:02,700
application built on top. 
So you know that protocol it 

713
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,100
basically becomes more and more 
valuable with each individual 

714
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:07,800
application that's built on top 
of it. 

715
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:13,400
So to me, being able to buy 
ether and invest in the protocol

716
00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:16,700
of aetherium and basically 
being, you know, what is Really 

717
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:21,400
an equity owner in etherium, is 
extremely powerful. 

718
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,600
If any of these networks are 
protocols becomes ubiquitous on 

719
00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:31,600
the internet, like, I believe, 
say, ethereum could be the 

720
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,600
upside of that investment is 
astronomical. 

721
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,300
So even if that probability is 
viewed, as very low, I think 

722
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,100
things like etherium are a 
fabulous bed, even if you're 

723
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:45,000
extremely skeptical, because the
upside is so great. 

724
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:46,900
Cool. 
Excellent. 

725
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:52,300
I think that was a well, well, 
put now let's move to one of the

726
00:46:52,300 --> 00:46:55,000
topics that's probably on many 
people's mind, which is the 

727
00:46:55,300 --> 00:47:00,400
topic of crowd sales and, and 
what's often called ico's. 

728
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:03,000
So those have been really taking
off. 

729
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,000
I think I saw some stats that in
the last was it six months or 

730
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,000
something? 
There was as much money invested

731
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,000
in the whole block chain space 
through icos as well as through 

732
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,600
traditional way. 
See, and that that, you know, 

733
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,300
probably or maybe this is the 
last year and that this year, 

734
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,900
you know, it's a good chance is 
even going to overtake that. 

735
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:30,300
What's your view of the current 
state of this Ico and crowd sale

736
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,600
wave. 
So, on a very high level, I 

737
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,500
think it's incredibly 
interesting that we are seeing 

738
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,900
what I would call a handful of 
unprecedented effects and I'll 

739
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:46,100
say what I think those are. 
So One. 

740
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:52,700
Is that broadly speaking, we are
seeing open source Founders. 

741
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,100
So founders of peer-to-peer open
source. 

742
00:47:55,100 --> 00:48:00,400
Protocols are able to raise 
money just to develop their 

743
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,500
protocol. 
I think this is absolutely 

744
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:07,600
amazing because open source has 
always been built. 

745
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,300
Usually for ideological reasons 
and it never really has been 

746
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:15,600
monetized in this way where you 
have a great idea. 

747
00:48:16,300 --> 00:48:17,800
You have an excellent white 
paper. 

748
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,900
You assemble an excellent team 
and now you can actually, you 

749
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:25,800
know, be monetized to actually, 
you know, build that protocol 

750
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,400
build a network that's a never 
really happened before. 

751
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:32,900
Additionally, the fact that 
these teams can take an equity 

752
00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:38,300
stake in their networks and 
actually you know, hold some of 

753
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:43,100
the tokens for themselves and 
gain the upside that looks sort 

754
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:45,600
of like a start-up founder when 
you start a company. 

755
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:49,400
Any, you know, you're usually 
the largest Equity owner in that

756
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,300
company and if that, if you can 
make that company 100 times 

757
00:48:53,300 --> 00:48:55,700
larger, you know, the value of 
that Equity goes up by a hundred

758
00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:59,800
times, and I think that we're 
seeing that affect, that kind of

759
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:05,300
economic incentive mechanism, 
from startups, be mimicked by 

760
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,100
open-source Founders. 
And I think that's also a sort 

761
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,100
of unprecedented affect one that
these projects can get money 

762
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:15,600
into that. 
The creators are really 

763
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:20,100
Financially to build a 
successful project on the 

764
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:24,900
flipside of that, and these kind
of crowd sales is that the users

765
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:27,800
of the network are the equity 
owners of the network. 

766
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:33,500
So, you know, when you're on 
Twitter or on Facebook or on 

767
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:38,400
Uber or Airbnb, Etsy Tumblr, 
whatever you're contributing to 

768
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,100
that platform, but you do not 
own that platform. 

769
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,400
Somebody else owns it and 
ultimately is extracting value 

770
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,600
from all of the interactions 
between the people on that 

771
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,000
platform. 
In the case of these 

772
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:56,000
peer-to-peer models, the users 
are the equity owners and when 

773
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:01,100
you contribute value in a sense,
Also gained a very a piece of 

774
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:04,200
that value based on your Equity 
ownership. 

775
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,800
So this idea of founders of 
open-source and peer-to-peer 

776
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,400
protocols, being able to 
monetize their networks to have 

777
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,200
an equity stake in their Network
and also for that Network to be 

778
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,000
owned by the users. 
All of these in my mind are 

779
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,800
pretty much unprecedented 
effects. 

780
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:27,100
And the fact that aetherium has 
been become really a platform 

781
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,600
for the launch of Total assets 
through the ERC 20 standard so 

782
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,700
that, you know, developers can 
focus just on their, you know, 

783
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,900
specific application that this 
token is powering instead of 

784
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:43,300
having to rebuild mining 
algorithms, consensus mechanisms

785
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:46,900
and the whole kind of blockchain
stack and getting to scale. 

786
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:50,600
So that your blockchain is 
secure, the fact that all that 

787
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,500
is abstracted Away by etherium 
and that developers can just 

788
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:56,200
focus on the actual digital 
asset in the mechanics of that 

789
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:01,400
digital asset is Amazing. 
So to me, you know, on a really 

790
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,100
high level, I think we're seeing
a lot of Trends here with crowd 

791
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:12,100
sales that are very big and very
important to look at carefully. 

792
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,600
Now all of that said, I think 
the specific mechanisms were 

793
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,400
seeing often play out in the 
space right now. 

794
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:28,200
Are pretty basic as in, there's 
a reason Venture Capital works 

795
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:29,700
the way. 
It does and it has kind of 

796
00:51:29,707 --> 00:51:32,200
emerged the way it does. 
So, for example, when you raise 

797
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,200
money for a company you don't 
take one big lump sum and then 

798
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:39,000
you know use that money forever,
you raised a seed round a series

799
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,700
a round Series be round and you 
kind of take Capital at 

800
00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:46,700
different different amounts of 
capital at different stages of 

801
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:48,600
your company. 
That makes sense. 

802
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,500
And you get diluted in different
amounts based on those kinds of 

803
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,800
round of funding and everything.
So right now, I think with icos 

804
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,100
we're not quite there were 
mostly in like a Hey I'm 

805
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:03,200
launching, I'm raising money and
it's a done deal and so I think 

806
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,500
we're actually going to see the 
ecosystem move more towards a 

807
00:52:08,500 --> 00:52:12,600
the structure is that 
traditional Venture financing 

808
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,100
created because I think I think 
they were created for a pretty 

809
00:52:16,100 --> 00:52:20,000
good reason. 
But yeah I am as you can 

810
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,900
probably tell I'm obviously very
excited about the prospects of 

811
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:28,000
monetizing peer-to-peer networks
and really rewarding the 

812
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,700
creators of of those 
peer-to-peer Networks. 

813
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:34,100
Yeah no I think you're putting 
out very well and I think you're

814
00:52:34,107 --> 00:52:39,300
totally right to raising in 
different stages and you know 

815
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:42,400
not selling all the tokens kind 
of in one go. 

816
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:47,100
It's going to be quite important
for projects and and I wouldn't 

817
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,700
be surprised if you're going to 
see some some challenges for 

818
00:52:49,700 --> 00:52:54,000
project sound line that you know
that waste all that money at 

819
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,100
once. 
I mean I think even a theory. 

820
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:59,700
Mm they got kind of Lucky with 
the Aether price. 

821
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:04,600
Just taking off at the right 
time, but otherwise the human 

822
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,900
Foundation would run out of 
money at this point. 

823
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:11,400
So, so given that what is your 
feet? 

824
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,900
Because, you know, looking at 
this from, you could look at 

825
00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:17,900
these projects and you see the 
amount of money they're raising 

826
00:53:17,900 --> 00:53:21,700
and the kind of stage, they're 
at, and often, you know, if they

827
00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:28,200
went to a VC, they probably 
wouldn't be fine off and they 

828
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,900
probably wouldn't be able to 
raise Significant amounts of 

829
00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:32,300
money often they might say. 
Okay. 

830
00:53:32,300 --> 00:53:35,900
We're going to maybe invest in 
the seeds seed round kinds 

831
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,000
company but now they're raising 
maybe 10 million or something. 

832
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,400
Do you think that there is a 
problem of just too much money 

833
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,500
going into projects and them 
being overvalued? 

834
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,000
So I have a couple thoughts 
there. 

835
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,200
So one is that, I think it's 
great. 

836
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,600
That these projects are being 
opened up to people outside of 

837
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,200
venture capital. 
And I think that it's fantastic.

838
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:07,000
That startup style returns have 
been given to regular people 

839
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,000
like purchasers of Bitcoin from 
the early days purchases of 

840
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,600
ether, in say the crowd sale of 
aetherium have seen fantastic 

841
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,600
returns. 
They were not Venture investors.

842
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:23,500
So right now just in a macro 
environment, we're in a place 

843
00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:29,400
where you know Venture is 
limited to a kind of elite group

844
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,300
of people that all have to be 
accredited investors or 

845
00:54:33,300 --> 00:54:37,800
qualified clients and basically 
have stringent net worth 

846
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,800
requirements. 
Most of these requirements are 

847
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:45,300
put in place after the Great 
Depression in like the 30s. 

848
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:51,300
So to me that limits all the 
best investment opportunities or

849
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,600
or rather the highest potential 
upside investment opportunities 

850
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:57,900
to a very exclusive and Elite 
group of people. 

851
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:02,900
Instead with these token sales 
that kind of democratizes that 

852
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:05,600
access and gives anyone access 
to these very early stage 

853
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,700
projects. 
So maybe what we're seeing is 

854
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:12,300
that there's more market demand 
for these early stage projects 

855
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:15,100
than people thought. 
And when you open that up to the

856
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:19,800
to anyone, Actually it's sort of
like a Kickstarter style 

857
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:23,200
fundraise where you can raise a 
little bit from a lot of 

858
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,300
different people instead of, you
know, a couple huge checks from 

859
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:31,900
one or two Venture investors. 
So maybe there's just more money

860
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:35,300
on the sidelines for early-stage
projects than people realized. 

861
00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:39,900
The second thing though is I do 
think specifically for some of 

862
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:45,200
the projects in the space, there
is in my view a bit of 

863
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,400
irrational exuberance Since I 
would call it around some of 

864
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,900
these token launches. 
Now that said, I think 

865
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,400
individuals can disagree with 
the market, but I do trust that 

866
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:01,500
the market is efficient in some 
way. 

867
00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:08,500
So the amount of money being put
in here, you know, who knows? 

868
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,900
Basically, maybe some of these 
projects end up being 1000x 

869
00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:18,400
returns. 
And in that case, Um the maybe 

870
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,100
seemingly High valuation at this
early stage. 

871
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,600
For a lot of these projects may 
be was justified because there 

872
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,000
was sort of a unicorn so to 
speak among them. 

873
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,100
Yes, those around, you know, 
this idea of irrational, 

874
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:34,500
exuberance around some of these 
projects and I do agree that 

875
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:39,600
some projects, can we see all 
this money flowing in and, and 

876
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,100
there's nothing really behind it
or perhaps, you know, 

877
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:44,500
technically, it's not install. 
The projects aren't being built 

878
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:46,000
on Solid ground or that kind of 
thing. 

879
00:56:46,700 --> 00:56:50,000
Do you think that, you know, at 
some point we may see some sort 

880
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,800
of a crowd sale bubble that 
could affect negatively the 

881
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,100
price of the underlying assets 
like Bitcoin and ether. if 

882
00:56:58,100 --> 00:57:01,000
there's a crowd sale bubble, I 
think we're maybe already past 

883
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:06,900
the peak, you know, with with 
the Dow and a lot of projects 

884
00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:14,500
late last year or so You know, I
think it's possible at the same 

885
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,200
time, though. 
I think this kind of crowd 

886
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:21,800
funding mechanism is here to 
stay and even if there are kind 

887
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:28,900
of waxes and wanes or swings in 
the activity, I think net that 

888
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:33,000
irrational. 
Exuberance is maybe it's often 

889
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,200
the the signal of a larger 
Trend. 

890
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:40,400
So with Bit You could argue say 
that in Bitcoin in 2013 When the

891
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,900
price went to 1,000 that, that 
was really irrational. 

892
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:46,500
Exuberance. 
But now I think we see in 

893
00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:50,400
hindsight that a lot of those 
people maybe were right. 

894
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,700
It's just the timing was maybe 
off a little bit and people were

895
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:57,100
seeing something really big. 
That just wasn't quite 

896
00:57:57,100 --> 00:58:00,900
production-ready that year, but 
was maybe production-ready two 

897
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:04,400
or three years out. 
So, yeah, I think we could see 

898
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,300
swings but I think that, this 
this idea of token launching and

899
00:58:08,300 --> 00:58:09,900
raising money through tokens is 
here to stay. 

900
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,200
Jay. 
You mentioned the Dao, from an 

901
00:58:14,500 --> 00:58:17,800
investor perspective. 
What effect, you think that may 

902
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:24,700
have on their desire to invest 
in, you know, in these tokens 

903
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:30,400
and future crowd sales So, the 
Dow was extraordinarily 

904
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,900
intellectually interesting in 
that. 

905
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:40,500
I do think that future doubts 
will work and will be a very 

906
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:43,000
important part of this 
ecosystem. 

907
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:47,100
So, I think the unfortunate part
of that effect is that it made 

908
00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:50,800
people skeptical of the concept 
of a dow. 

909
00:58:52,700 --> 00:58:55,600
When I actually think that, 
that's a very important concept,

910
00:58:57,700 --> 00:59:01,400
and, and I doubt just quickly 
being a decentralized autonomous

911
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,300
organization. 
So, I think this idea of 

912
00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:07,300
conferring voting rights and 
fund allocation based on the 

913
00:59:07,300 --> 00:59:12,400
community for a very specific 
purpose actually, you know, has 

914
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,600
its use cases, potentially, and 
is a very big idea. 

915
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,400
I think it's a classic example 
of something that's uniquely 

916
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,400
enabled by this technology. 
And and really wasn't possible 

917
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:29,500
before. 
Now that said I think there was 

918
00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:33,700
obviously way too much money 
dumped into the Dow for where it

919
00:59:33,700 --> 00:59:39,700
was as project, and I think that
that should have been like a 

920
00:59:39,700 --> 00:59:42,400
tiny experiment that got little 
bit out of hand. 

921
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:51,500
So to me, Yeah, it may be 
correctly, tempered investors 

922
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:54,600
interests and showed them. 
You can't just dump money into 

923
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,500
anything. 
You have to actually, you know, 

924
00:59:56,500 --> 01:00:00,300
still have a very critical lens 
when you're examining these 

925
01:00:00,300 --> 01:00:03,300
projects. 
But at the same time you know I 

926
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:05,100
get partially. 
Why that happened? 

927
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:09,200
It's just because the Dow was so
intellectually interesting that 

928
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,300
it was hard not to participate 
for some people because they 

929
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:15,500
felt like oh I you know, I want 
to be part of the future 

930
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,100
essentially, even From an 
investor perspective. 

931
01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:23,600
As in was, the DOW going to make
spectacular Venture returns. 

932
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,700
Probably not. 
And I think a lot of people 

933
01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:29,300
probably need that. 
Yeah, I mean, I see where you're

934
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:34,200
coming from, on the other hand, 
I think to an investor to 

935
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,000
properly evaluate and assess 
whether or not a project is 

936
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,500
technically viable which you 
know, for all intensive 

937
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:45,400
purposes, the the Dow crash or 
hack was it was a technical 

938
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,000
issue. 
I think for most people. 

939
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,100
Invested in it or even observers
of the space there was really no

940
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:53,400
way of knowing that that would 
happen. 

941
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:57,200
Do you think that perhaps this 
is installed some sort of 

942
01:00:57,207 --> 01:01:01,800
Skeptics perhaps instill some 
skepticism for investors to you 

943
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:07,300
know maybe invest in some really
interesting projects but because

944
01:01:08,100 --> 01:01:12,100
they don't have the ability or 
the experience to examine them 

945
01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:17,100
technically May hinder the space
with regards. 

946
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:23,500
Raising Venture money and like 
money from not from within the 

947
01:01:23,500 --> 01:01:25,000
space, but yeah, like investor 
money. 

948
01:01:26,300 --> 01:01:31,200
Yeah, I think if it created any 
skepticism, it's healthy 

949
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,000
skepticism. 
I think it's really important 

950
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,100
that people understand what 
they're investing in which I 

951
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:42,400
think in the case of dialogue 
people really didn't and and 

952
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,500
maybe didn't understand the 
risk, right? 

953
01:01:45,500 --> 01:01:48,900
Any investment and anything in. 
This ecosystem is 

954
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:52,700
extraordinarily risky and you 
know, including ethereum, 

955
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:56,200
including Bitcoin. 
So I think that a lot of Or 

956
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:01,700
maybe forget that, do you think 
that investors really get how 

957
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:03,600
risky it is? 
I mean, because there's there's 

958
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:07,400
obviously sort of the through 
speculative riskmaster stuff but

959
01:02:07,500 --> 01:02:10,600
do people when you, when you 
really start looking into these 

960
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,300
Technologies to be even as 
observers of the space of you, 

961
01:02:13,300 --> 01:02:18,200
like we can we can say that 
these are not Battleground 

962
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,200
tested Technologies. 
Like, you know, we're not really

963
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,600
sure what's going to happen when
the theory of moves to proof of 

964
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:25,900
stake. 
Like these, do you there? 

965
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:31,600
Enormous risk around all these 
projects that we sort of take 

966
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,500
for granted. 
But do you think people really 

967
01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:36,600
comprehend the amount of risk? 
I think so. 

968
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,200
I mean, I don't know, I think 
some people do others. 

969
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:44,900
Maybe not. 
You know, I think that the 

970
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:50,100
upside is so large and that's 
one thing that everyone gets 

971
01:02:50,100 --> 01:02:58,100
that on some level, the risk 
assessment is like it still 

972
01:02:58,100 --> 01:02:59,900
makes sense to invest in some of
these things. 

973
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:03,100
Even if you think there's a one 
percent chance of success 

974
01:03:03,100 --> 01:03:07,500
because the upside is more than 
100 X, in which case, if, as an 

975
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,200
investment, you know, that's a 
good investment. 

976
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:14,700
So II, think, you know, and you 
could even say that about ether 

977
01:03:14,700 --> 01:03:17,800
itself that, you know, I 
consider if you're in very 

978
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,000
risky. 
Obviously, I'm very excited 

979
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,900
about etherium. 
I think if you're in the upside 

980
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:26,700
on the market cap is massive and
I think the probability of 

981
01:03:26,700 --> 01:03:32,400
failure is pretty high too. 
So, you know, knowing there's a 

982
01:03:32,408 --> 01:03:36,200
lot of risk doesn't mean you 
shouldn't invest, but Yeah, I 

983
01:03:36,207 --> 01:03:38,900
think it's across the board 
people's different assessment 

984
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:41,700
there. 
So before we wrap up here, I 

985
01:03:42,100 --> 01:03:45,500
wanted to ask you about. 
Yeah, so about Bitcoin in ether,

986
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:48,900
these underlying assets 
recently, you know, we've seen 

987
01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:52,900
the price of Bitcoin come up to 
the levels that it was back in 

988
01:03:52,900 --> 01:03:56,900
the early 2014 and even higher. 
And the also we've seen the 

989
01:03:56,900 --> 01:04:01,700
price of aetherium of ether come
up to, you know, sort of like 

990
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:07,400
$20 right now. 
There's there's a lot of there's

991
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:11,600
a lot of speculation around You 
know, the these underlying 

992
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,200
Technologies and that's what's 
driving the price up. 

993
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,500
When we see more and more apps 
being developed on the core. 

994
01:04:19,500 --> 01:04:24,300
Protocols, what do you think 
will drive the price of these 

995
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:31,600
core core tokens in the future? 
I mean just more use cases for a

996
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,900
real consumers like real people.
That aren't kind of weird crypto

997
01:04:36,900 --> 01:04:39,400
Geeks. 
I think that's going to be the 

998
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,700
key driver is if we can see 
something like Twitter, the 

999
01:04:43,700 --> 01:04:47,900
protocol get really big, you 
know, because users are 

1000
01:04:47,900 --> 01:04:52,400
remunerated, in an in creative 
way and suddenly you get money 

1001
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,800
for retweets and some 14 year 
old makes million dollars, like 

1002
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,200
that's big right? 
I think it's going to need to, 

1003
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,800
at the end of the day, of 
course, be kind of scale oil 

1004
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,200
scaled, end-user applications in
the meantime though, it's mostly

1005
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,800
people betting on the future and
betting on that future sort of 

1006
01:05:11,808 --> 01:05:16,700
speculative lie based on 
progress in the ecosystem and 

1007
01:05:16,700 --> 01:05:19,700
increasing that probability of 
those end-user applications 

1008
01:05:19,700 --> 01:05:22,700
emerging. 
I think it's hard to know 

1009
01:05:22,700 --> 01:05:27,000
exactly what drives all these 
prices but I think it's it's 

1010
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,500
often just people realizing how 
big the potential is here. 

1011
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,900
But Olaf thanks so much for 
coming on and sharing a bit 

1012
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:38,000
about Paulie chain. 
And your vision today was super 

1013
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,600
interesting, talk with you and I
am excited to see where the font

1014
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,600
goes and where this whole Space 
goes as well. 

1015
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:50,100
I mean I think you are also at 
the very very beginning of 

1016
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:53,800
what's probably going to be a 
whole wave of investment funds 

1017
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,500
that are going to pursue similar
strategies like you. 

1018
01:05:56,500 --> 01:06:00,200
So that's extremely exciting to 
to learn about, yeah. 

1019
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,400
And thanks for having me. 
And yeah I do think that the 

1020
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:07,100
space is seeing unprecedented 
growth right now, so I'm sure 

1021
01:06:07,100 --> 01:06:10,000
there will be many other funds 
doing what I'm doing. 

1022
01:06:10,700 --> 01:06:12,500
Cool. 
So is there there are quite a 

1023
01:06:12,508 --> 01:06:15,400
few resources, I mean, Olaf's 
articles, and some other 

1024
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,600
articles and some of the 
concepts we've talked about. 

1025
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,700
So we'll link to those in the 
show notes. 

1026
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:24,200
Now, just one piece of 
information for our listeners as

1027
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,100
well, so we have you probably 
noticed we have often been 

1028
01:06:27,100 --> 01:06:30,300
releasing episodes on Tuesday 
instead of Monday, like we used 

1029
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:35,000
to So we are moving to releasing
them on Tuesday, basically, 

1030
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,700
always and we think we should be
able to release them on time 

1031
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:42,100
that way almost always. 
I'm sure sometimes it will be 

1032
01:06:42,100 --> 01:06:46,600
Wednesday still but but so yeah.
So keep a lookout for the 

1033
01:06:46,607 --> 01:06:48,800
episode since used a. 
And yeah, with that. 

1034
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,700
We are at the end of our show. 
Thanks so much for tuning in. 

1035
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:55,100
Once again, we are part of their
lesser pick on networks. 

1036
01:06:55,100 --> 01:06:57,700
You can find this show and other
shows on their list of we kind 

1037
01:06:57,700 --> 01:07:00,400
of calm. 
And yeah, thanks so much if you 

1038
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,800
want to Support you showed in 
please, leave us an iTunes 

1039
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,600
review and we look forward to 
being back next week.