1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,840 If we truly had a free market, I don't think we would necessarily 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,240 need all this decentralized technology the market would take 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,480 care of. What we really needed is a new 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,080 kind of blockchain, where what happens on the blockchain can be 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,600 trustlessly observed by systems outside the blockchain. 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,520 Bitcoin isn't really made for supporting these off chain use 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,160 cases. So I tried a theorem too that 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,000 didn't turn out that well either. 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,600 Mel started as like this research project to build a 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,360 blockchain back and actually support a whole Internet that's 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,480 user sovereign that has like decentralization and security 12 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:40,800 and resilience in all the protocols. 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,400 You know, not just a blockchain, but if you actually start 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,280 building these massive networks that depend on correct knowledge 15 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,280 of what happens on the blockchain, then if somebody 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,680 hacks inferior for a day, that's like worse than hacking 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:12,000 Ethereum. This episode is proudly brought 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,880 to you by Nosis, a visionary collective committed to 19 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,840 fostering and expanding applications for a decentralized 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,240 future. Nosis is at the forefront of 21 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,160 innovation with Nosis Pay Circles and Metri 22 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,560 revolutionizing open banking and creating a superior form of 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,200 money. With Hashi and Nosis VPN, 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,080 they're building a more resilient and privacy focused 25 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,080 open Internet. Are you seeking a robust L1 to 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,960 launch your project? Well, look no further than the 27 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:40,200 Nosis chain. 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You can deploy your project on 36 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,480 the EVM compatible and highly decentralized Gnosis Chain, or 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,880 help secure the network by running a validator with just a 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,240 single GNO and low cost hardware. 39 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,880 Embark on your journey towards decentralization today at nosis 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,960 dot IO. Chorus One is one of the biggest 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,040 node operators globally and help you stake your tokens on 45 plus 42 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,720 networks like Ethereum, Cosmos, Celestia and DYDX. 43 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,360 More than 100,000 delegators stake with Chorus One, including 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,840 institutions like BIT, Go and Ledger. 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,640 Sticking with Chorus One not only gets you the highest years, 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,520 but also the most robust security practices and 47 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,800 infrastructure that are usually exclusive for institutions. 48 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:50,600 You can stake directly to Chorus One's public note from your 49 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,800 wallet, set up a white label note, or use the recently 50 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,520 launched product Opus to stake up to 8000 ETH in a single 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,640 transaction. You can even offer high yield 52 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:05,000 staking to your own customers using their API. 53 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,120 Your assets always remain in your custody, so you can have 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,720 complete Peace of Mind. Start staking today at Chorus 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,800 .1. Welcome to Epicenter, the show 56 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,680 which talks about the technologies, projects and 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,680 people driving decentralisation and the blockchain revolution. 58 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,600 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Eric Tong, who is 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,960 the founder and CEO and CTO of Mel Project and so really 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,800 excited to get into into that with him. 61 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,680 There's a lot to unpack. Thanks so much for joining us 62 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,080 today. It's I'm really excited that to 63 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,520 have you on. Yeah, I'm really excited too. 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,240 So yeah, we spoke a bit before and looked a bit, you know, sort 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,160 of been looking a bit into Mel or the thing you're working on. 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,360 There is a lot there, right? There's a lot of different 67 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,080 components for it. It's a very ambitious, it's a 68 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,000 very ambitious project, but I thought, I don't know where it 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,200 makes sense to start. I wonder if it makes sense to 70 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,040 start with your VPN. And we're like, tell us sort of 71 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:12,520 like your journey of like how you how we became interested in, 72 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,440 you know, decentralization and the topics around it. 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,720 Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I grew up both in 74 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,520 China and Canada. So, so back when I was small, my 75 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,520 family moved between the two countries a lot. 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,600 So I kind of got to experience both like a relatively well 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,280 functioning Western country, but also a country where, you know, 78 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:35,480 you had a lot of sense censorship, a lot of 79 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,320 surveillance and all of like technological control over 80 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,800 people. So like that actually played a 81 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,080 big role in how I got into computers as a whole because 82 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,280 when I was small, I was like 11 or so, I was, I was just 83 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,960 learning how to code. And it happened to be the same 84 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,280 year that China turned on its great firewall, you know, and 85 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,280 put it into production. So, you know, one day I just 86 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,120 wake, woke up and then all of my favorite websites were gone. 87 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,720 I couldn't go on YouTube. I couldn't go on like, you know, 88 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,800 Facebook and, and you know, that was a really big shock to me as 89 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,560 a like, I need to fix that. So I need to go to those 90 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,160 websites and I, that really got me into things like VPNs, 91 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,080 anonymous communication technology and really just like 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,560 there's this whole world that's dedicated to how do you hide 93 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,000 from your ISP? How do you transmit data on the 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,560 Internet in a way that your ISP doesn't know what's what's going 95 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,520 on? And so I really kind of dove 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,760 into that made my I back then with my like very limited coding 97 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,040 skills, I made like a very janky like browser actually that had 98 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,960 AVPN in it had like anti phishing and things like that 99 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,600 into it really got me into kind of like cybersecurity and 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,480 privacy and all of that. So later on, you know, I really 101 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,520 felt like my mission in life is really to use cryptography, use 102 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,000 these tools to build things that let people freely coordinate and 103 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,760 freely access information. I didn't know that much about 104 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,120 crypto or blockchains. I just went to went to like 105 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,320 university at Waterloo later when I was 17, I got into their 106 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,360 PhD program. I was like very much into like 107 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,080 superpunk things, right? Like I was like very much into 108 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,920 Tor, you know, Afrina, all of that. 109 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,520 How I really got into kind of like decentralization per 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,040 Southeast is really that I really saw two things. 111 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,760 So first of all, one thing I really felt like after I started 112 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,200 actually researching these things is that you need to build 113 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,760 like trustless systems. And this is especially, you 114 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,800 know, after like the whole Snowden thing, that leak 115 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,280 happened. I realized you couldn't just 116 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:48,200 host your server in the US and expect that to be good enough. 117 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,960 You can't, you, you can't just expect, OK, China's bad, you 118 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,120 know, Iran's Internet's bad. But as long as you encrypt your 119 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,720 traffic to outside of these countries, you're fine. 120 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,680 Well, that whole paradigm got shattered. 121 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,120 You, you can't trust anybody's infrastructure. 122 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,480 And the other thing is that, and then I discovered Bitcoin, which 123 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,440 showed that it's actually possible to build things that 124 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,560 where you don't trust any particular person through the 125 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,840 power of economics, you can actually build systems where 126 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,240 you're not assuming that somebody's trusted. 127 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,680 We're even assuming that a majority is trusted. 128 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,360 You're just assuming that a majority of people out there 129 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,600 want to make money, which is a much easier assumption to make. 130 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,560 And then you can build secure systems. 131 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,600 So I was super excited about Bitcoin, about block chains. 132 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,280 I kind of like pivoted my whole research into how can I build 133 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,200 these tools on top of Bitcoin. I even built like, you know, 134 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,880 public key infrastructures and things like that on Bitcoin. 135 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,840 And all this time on the side, I was developing my VPN that I 136 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,400 started when I was small. I rewrote it several times just. 137 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,680 To I I like before you were saying. 138 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,360 So you started your PhD program at 17? 139 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Yeah. That's pretty crazy. 140 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,880 So you do. I was a bachelor's world before 141 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,320 bachelor's but before I went to university. 142 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,640 So like I wasn't necessarily limited to a particular 143 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,160 schedule. So I went to my bachelor's when 144 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,080 I was 14 and I got into my PhD when I 7th both in the 145 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,160 University of Waterloo. So it was easy. 146 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,400 I just like stayed at that one school and went to whatever like 147 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,240 to me the most. I guess so. 148 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,320 And then in the PhD you focus on, you were working a lot on 149 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,320 EVPN or also. Other not really like so I was 150 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,320 really focusing on peer-to-peer networks and Tor and anonymity 151 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,520 and that kind of thing and that really led me down to 152 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,919 discovering Bitcoin and discovering that you can 153 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:42,840 actually build secure consensus in a decentralized setting. 154 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,160 And so so yeah, like I kind of pivoted more towards how can we 155 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,400 build things like these core peer-to-peer networks, these 156 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:57,880 naming systems on Bitcoin, but later on I really discovered you 157 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,560 kind of can't right? Like Bitcoin isn't really made 158 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:05,080 for supporting these off chain use cases. 159 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,640 So I tried Ethereum too. That didn't turn out that well 160 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,080 either. And I published a paper or so 161 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,240 like here and there, but I just felt like that was not going to 162 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,400 be power the next generation of the Internet. 163 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,160 So I, I really sad and I thought about it and I realized what we 164 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,840 really needed is a new kind of blockchain where what happens on 165 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,880 the blockchain, it can be trustlessly observed by systems 166 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,160 outside the blockchain. And that kind of started Mel Mel 167 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,640 started as like this research project to build a blockchain 168 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,640 back and actually support a whole Internet that's user 169 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,360 sovereign. That's, you know, that has like 170 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,520 decentralization, insecurity and resilience in all the protocols. 171 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:53,600 You know, not just the blockchain, but you need a 172 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,640 blockchain to support them. Just so you said you were kind 173 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,800 of like trying out Ethereum and then you felt like Ethereum 174 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,200 wasn't the answer. What was the what were the 175 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,560 things that you felt were the shortcomings of Ethereum? 176 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,080 There's only just one honestly, and it's not just Ethereum, it's 177 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,000 every other layer one, which is that we don't have really good 178 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,440 light clients. So here's an example. 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,680 So let's say I'm building a BitTorrent replacement, except 180 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,800 the nodes are incentivized. So you know, if I download a 181 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,760 file from you, I got a page something like that. 182 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,320 Let's say you want to build this on Ethereum. 183 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:30,960 Well, there's many ways you can do this. 184 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,640 You can just use on chain transfers. 185 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,920 You could use some cool state channel thing called layer two. 186 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:37,960 It doesn't matter. There's lots of ways you can do 187 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,080 this. But if you actually get down to 188 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,680 implementing this, so you have a BitTorrent client running on 189 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,920 your computer and it's downloading a file from a peer 190 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,000 and it needs to pay that peer and it also needs to verify 191 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,920 incoming payments. So all of these things go 192 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,120 through an RPC provider like Infira. 193 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Now this has 2 problems. First of all, they see 194 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:03,800 everything you do. They can censor it, but that's 195 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,120 not even the worst problem. The worst problem is that they 196 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,640 can lie to you, right? Like when you ask if you're a 197 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,440 did I get my payment? They can say yes when the actual 198 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,760 answer is no and there's no way for your client to know So 199 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,000 really the whole security, the whole economics of the system 200 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,640 completely depends on inferior telling you truthfully what's 201 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,360 happening on it. If you're even blotching and 202 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,520 then your system is no longer decentralized. 203 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,120 I thought BitTorrent was supposed to be decentralized. 204 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,920 Now you add a blocking in and now it's centralized. 205 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,840 This, that's the opposite of what you're trying to do, right? 206 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,680 Like so, so like I was trying to build these systems in with 207 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,760 every single launching it tried like this became a huge problem. 208 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,480 And I suspect that the reason why we currently don't feel like 209 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,880 this is a huge problem is not that's because we're not 210 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,560 building this kind of system that actually is off chain, but 211 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:55,840 uses on chain for security. Because if you're building 212 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,160 systems that are on chain, then this is fine, right? 213 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,480 If you're transferring entities on chain, if inferior lies to 214 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,480 you, they don't steal any money. If they don't do any damage, you 215 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,120 go switch to a different RPC provider. 216 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,480 If somebody hacks inferior for a day, it'll be of great 217 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,720 inconvenience. It wouldn't lead to massive 218 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,160 hacks of huge worldwide systems. But if you actually start 219 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,080 building these massive networks that depend on correct knowledge 220 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,080 of what happens on the blotching, then if somebody 221 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,520 hacks inferior for a day, that's like worse than hacking 222 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,240 Ethereum. Of course, I think a lot of 223 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,960 people are sort of like aware of this problem. 224 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,160 I mean, I remember a great article by we should probably 225 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,040 put the link on that in the show notes. 226 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,200 I think we mentioned it before, but there's this great article 227 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,960 by like Moxie Mullins Marlins. Yeah, exactly. 228 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,760 Right. But he kind of points exactly to 229 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,040 this issue. But yeah, you're right that, 230 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,720 like people don't tend to think of this as a problem because I 231 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,040 guess why would, I mean, if you're lying to you, it would 232 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,600 ruin their whole business. They, they don't have an 233 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,560 incentive to do that, right? But I guess I wonder if, if the 234 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,280 would the issue be more something like, OK, let's say 235 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,800 if, you know, I'll build this BitTorrent network that has 236 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,200 Ethereum incentives and you depending on a centralized RBC 237 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,360 provider. I mean, I imagine where the 238 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,080 challenge might come is that they're going to be like, oh, 239 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,120 but you know, we don't want to, you know, from a regular gym 240 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,520 perspective, we don't want to like support this kind of thing. 241 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,040 So we're going to have to like through all the days to shut it 242 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,120 down. Yeah. 243 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,840 I mean, honestly, this is the whole point of crypto, right? 244 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,840 I mean, if you think about it, it's not in the bank's incentive 245 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,160 to close your account. It's not in the New York Stock 246 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,040 Exchange. It's incentive to stop you from 247 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,280 selling Dogecoin. Like the whole idea is like if 248 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,200 we like, if we truly had a free market, I don't think we would 249 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,440 necessarily need all this decentralized technology. 250 00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:59,680 The market would take care of it. 251 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,600 The problem is that we don't right? 252 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,640 We have monopolies and oligopolies that are controlled 253 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,160 that that, you know, have a symbiotic relationship with 254 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320 regular regulators. And that's the whole problem 255 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,680 we're solving with crypto. So you know, so basically here's 256 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,080 the thing, like if you're building a app that depends on 257 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,680 inferior, you know, if you if that's fine for your use case, 258 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,080 then it's also fine not to use Ethereum. 259 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,720 It's also fine to have inferior run the whole app 260 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,440 infrastructure, right, like now, this is different. 261 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,080 So I think that the there's the biggest reason why people don't 262 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,560 feel like this is a problem is because we're not trying to 263 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,120 build this kind of app where the security bottleneck actually is 264 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,280 in fear of. So, for example, if we're 265 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,880 actually doing, you know, dehydrating or like the current 266 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,080 web 3 ecosystem, if you're isn't really the security bottleneck, 267 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,240 because, as I alluded to, if if you're a lies to you about how 268 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,400 many pudgy Penguins you have, how many ET you have, what's the 269 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,640 status of the pools on Guinea swap? 270 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,320 The damage they can do is very limited, right? 271 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Like why would they do so and ruin their own reputation? 272 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,480 The worst thing that could happen maybe is that they censor 273 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,040 your transaction. They're not because of 274 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,360 regulatory reasons. They're not going to lie to you 275 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,400 because it's not in their interest and not in the interest 276 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,400 of anybody who hacks inferior. Like there's no reason why I 277 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,720 would hack inferior to troll people to say everybody has a 278 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,960 pudging Penguin. Like maybe I would want to do 279 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,640 that for fun. It's not going to make me a ton 280 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,600 of money. Yeah. 281 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,520 And and I guess the other thing I could also imagine happening 282 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,920 here now in the example of like, OK, BitTorrent, like network is 283 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,440 that of course some people not going to like that, right? 284 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,880 Like let's say the whole copyright type stuff, right. 285 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,440 So I could imagine then then basically being like, hey, we're 286 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,280 going to try to force inferior to give the IP addresses right 287 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,280 of the people so that they can basically go and pursue them. 288 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,840 Yeah. And I think like, that's 289 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,960 definitely a big problem, but I actually think that that's not 290 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,960 the worst problem here because that's still like a censorship 291 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,600 problem of inferior stopping the network. 292 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,640 I think the bigger problem is lying. 293 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,840 So I think maybe BitTorrent payment verification is not 294 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,080 necessarily the best example. So there are other use cases 295 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,040 like for example, into an encryption. 296 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,920 So I need to look up Brian Crane like in like Moxie Marlinspike 297 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,680 talks about, right? I look up your public key on a 298 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,360 blockchain and I use that to do into an encryption. 299 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,200 Now if if you're a lies to me, they can steal every single 300 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,000 message I sent to you, right? Like maybe I'm doing some like 301 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,080 big business deal here with and transferring a bunch of money. 302 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,240 Like you can literally steal money this way by lying to the 303 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,280 users. And so, so and, and it really 304 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,920 boils down to when we're using these decentralized systems, we 305 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,960 expect that we're trusting the block chains economics. 306 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,440 We're not expecting that we're simply running, we're simply 307 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,880 using a system run by insurer. So like, and you know, because 308 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,960 of this, if you're trying to build this whole Internet where 309 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,880 where the security really comes in the blockchain and you're 310 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,680 building these off chain systems like, you know, payment networks 311 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,640 or you know, BitTorrent like networks and end to an encrypted 312 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,000 messengers, then knowing what happens on chain really matters. 313 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,040 And the whole thesis of Metal is that these use cases are way 314 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,000 bigger than the current web for ecosystem. 315 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,480 The current web 3 ecosystem is like, let's stuff things on 316 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,600 chain. Do the composability on chain 317 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,600 because that's the safe place, right? 318 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,600 That's where all the security and consensus happens. 319 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,120 Once you're outside of it, you're kind of kind of like out 320 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,680 of luck. But if you can't actually 321 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,600 transfer the security out of it, then this changes the whole 322 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,520 paradigm and makes building out web three and mass adoption 323 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,360 everything way easier because you just need to look at the 324 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,280 blockchain from outside when when you need to. 325 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:01,880 So I, I really like what you said before, like, you know, if 326 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,880 you had it truly free market, we wouldn't need all this 327 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,960 decentralization. And I, I think that's a very 328 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,160 true point. And I, I think on some level, 329 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,320 right, if you kind of zoom out right, like what is all this 330 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,000 crypto blockchain decentral decentralization about? 331 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:25,320 And to me, it's also about creating an economic system that 332 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,840 is actually a free market. Exactly. 333 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,760 And I think that like Mel is really about that as well. 334 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,600 I think what crypto has currently done is it has greatly 335 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,920 liberated finance, right? Anyone can create financial 336 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,600 instruments, create tokens, sell basically stock in projects, 337 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,600 right. But the but I think that the 338 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,520 rest of the Internet needs a similar change. 339 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,960 You want a whole Internet that's permissionless, that's 340 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,800 borderless, that people can transact and communicate on 341 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,160 freely. And what Mel does is that it 342 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,040 takes all the cool security and decentralization we've invented 343 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,120 for blockchains and uses like clients to let people build 344 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,200 other protocols like communication protocols, like 345 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,600 publishing protocols to have the same kind of properties and 346 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,120 really get get the web of revolution happening across the 347 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,960 Internet and create. And this is like making a truly 348 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,960 free market, right? Because you don't, you can't 349 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,800 just only have a freeway of sending money. 350 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,440 You also need free communication, you know, free 351 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,680 publishing, all of that so that people can coordinate and come 352 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,720 to consensus on this. I, I would love it actually, if 353 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,440 you can go a bit more into depth on, you know, the kind of like 354 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,960 use cases that you feel like, you know, because you're saying, 355 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,040 OK, this is the kind of thing that, you know, could really get 356 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,960 us to like mass adoption and too much broader use cases and the 357 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,640 current sort of, you know, defy type thing. 358 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,680 Like, what are the use cases that you feel, you know, those 359 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,560 are really the things that are most powerful that could be 360 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,040 enabled by such a technology and that would really, you know, be 361 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,320 things that a lot of people would start. 362 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,200 Using that, you know today not using blockchain or maybe not 363 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,880 using blockchain for these particular types of problems. 364 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,640 Yeah, definitely. So I think that it would be 365 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,680 helpful to start with the actual use case, right. 366 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:29,000 So imagine you had a Discord like app that's completely 367 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,680 censorship resistant and permissionless. 368 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,440 So, you know, it's the imagine the UX is the same. 369 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,440 It's just Discord, except, you know, you don't have to trust 370 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,240 the Discord company while using it. 371 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:42,960 You can say whatever you want on it, start your own communities 372 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,720 on it. And you know, like, you know, 373 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,840 and basically just like create this whole, create all these 374 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,840 communities on this system that are sovereign and are user 375 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,680 focused. So let's just imagine an app 376 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,880 like that. So the societal impact of this 377 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,360 would be really big on because if we think about currently, how 378 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,480 can you get people to work together, There are basically 379 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,400 two ways. One is the kind of like a in a 380 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,640 private, informal volunteer basis way. 381 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,360 So I, I'm a person living in the US, you're living in China, he's 382 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:19,920 living in Russia. Let's go on GitHub and try to 383 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,760 write some code together, try to build something. 384 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,240 And this, this is one model. The other model is that this 385 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,360 fully regulated, very bureaucratic multinational 386 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,480 corporation where, you know, I have to like, you know, make 387 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,720 this whole legal structure, hire people, do something, some big 388 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,920 thing together. And it's all very complex and it 389 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,560 all very like it's really easily damaged or shut down by like 390 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,360 random like political or like societal differences. 391 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,400 So that's the current world. But if you have a truly 392 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,480 permissionless communication and community building tool, what 393 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,040 you can actually build, as an example, would be a 394 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,080 multinational borderless permission list collective of 395 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,640 people working on things that's properly governed and properly 396 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,200 incentivized. So imagine you can do votes on 397 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,720 this. I mean, Discord can do votes. 398 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,840 You can do votes on this. You can use this to control the 399 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,440 treasury, talk about things completely permissionlessly. 400 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,520 And you can access this app anywhere in the world. 401 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,040 You know, China can't block it. Iran can't block it. 402 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,720 Nobody can stop your money from flowing. 403 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,360 Nobody can see what you're doing on it. 404 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,560 So this will do to community building and Dow creation and 405 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,880 like coordination what you know Bitcoin did to money transfer. 406 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,600 So you could imagine people working on things like let's 407 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,480 say, let's archive all the books or let's, you know, share 408 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,040 whistle blower information or or do journalism in these 409 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,040 communities and it'll be both public, but also permission less 410 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,560 and organic. While currently we have a 411 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,560 dichotomy between if you want secure and permissionless and 412 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,080 kind of like outside the, it cannot be shut down. 413 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,040 It has to be low profile and private. 414 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,360 If you want public, then that's like very like bureaucratic and 415 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,760 regulated. If you have a, it's just this 416 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,960 one application will let you build a world where people can 417 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,200 make public but also permissionless collectives that 418 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,200 work and. Yeah, so the problem with 419 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:30,440 something like Discord today is like, OK, if you, I, I mean, I 420 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:35,320 guess so I guess one problem would be have you link the 421 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:41,960 Discord to something now, you know, on chain, like, you know, 422 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,640 we control a bunch of funds together, things like that, 423 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,040 right? So, so that's not the biggest 424 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,440 problem. I think the biggest problem is 425 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,320 that Discord is a centralized platform, right? 426 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,480 Like Discord sees everything you do, they can shut down a 427 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,360 community they don't like. And you know, also like if your 428 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:00,840 ISP doesn't like you accessing Discord, then you don't get to 429 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,120 access Discord. Like in China, it's quite 430 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:07,960 difficult to access Discord. So like, I think like it's not 431 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,880 really about the on chain. It's really about the software 432 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,760 itself. You know, what can you do if in 433 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,240 a in web 2 versus a truly permissionless application? 434 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,840 And so, so if you think about this permissionless Discord, 435 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,200 just like the actual Discord parts, let's forget about crypto 436 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,840 or blockchain. I think that'll really create 437 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,640 this very vibrant marketplace of ideas of coordination that 438 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,360 currently doesn't exist on the Internet. 439 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,520 We can really let people from all around the world join and 440 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,520 participate and do things that we can't currently just can't 441 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,600 do. And I think that what and and 442 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,520 the thing about mail is that to realize this kind of vision, you 443 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,400 need two things. First of all, you need a way of 444 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,960 actually combining decentralization, but also like 445 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,840 a centralized user experience, right? 446 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,720 Like the problem with decentralized messengers now is 447 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,400 that you got to like manually set up your servers and things 448 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,440 like that and you need to manually connect to them and 449 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,280 you're still trusting that particular server. 450 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,040 But with a with like clients in a blockchain like mail, you can 451 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,480 actually have a whole free market of different providers 452 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,160 you can pick from move your group between these things. 453 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,680 And I wrote a whole blog post on on this called like confederal 454 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,880 protocols, where I explore this concept where it is that we 455 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,360 start with a model that we know how to build, which is, which is 456 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,400 Federated message passing, which was used in like e-mail, used in 457 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,200 Matrix, used in XMPP. And we simply had a very simple 458 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560 blocking layer to that. And we get like fully user 459 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:47,080 software and very decentralized and better user experience 460 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,720 because the whole thing becomes one namespace. 461 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,280 It's like Discord, you can search for servers, join them. 462 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,360 You have one username, you have like one identity. 463 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,640 Your identity is not bound to whatever server you pick. 464 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:03,120 And so you end up having the same user experience as a 465 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,560 centralized app, except it's permissionless. 466 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,920 All the incentives actually go to your community, not to 467 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,000 Discord. So imagine when you boost your 468 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,440 server, you're actually contributing to public goods for 469 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,800 your community. And it's censorship resistant 470 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,920 and like it, it's going to have better quality of service 471 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,680 because there's going to be a pure free market in the service 472 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,040 providers that provide hosting for these two communities. 473 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,760 So in because switching is basically 0 cost. 474 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,080 And so that's the kind of thing that Mel lets you build like 475 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,560 this kind of like much for your market for resources for 476 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,640 protocol infrastructure that let you build much better Internet 477 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,080 apps than with Web two or I guess with current Web 3 478 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,800 technology. So maybe you can go a bit into, 479 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,640 a little bit into the light client aspect here, because I 480 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,680 mean, light clients is something that, or is in crypto is always, 481 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,560 you know, everyone's always, you know, people understand like 482 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,600 kind of the, the importance of light clients, at least more or 483 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:09,400 less. I think. 484 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:16,800 What is, why is it so hard to have, for existing block chains 485 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,480 to have good live clients And like, what's the, you know, 486 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,000 what's the challenge around live clients? 487 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,640 And what do you, how do you do live clients and, and how come 488 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,840 they're so much more efficient? And, and maybe also kind of a 489 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,880 connected question. I mean, to me it seems like this 490 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,840 is something where actually there's a lot of innovation at 491 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,760 work at the moment that that goes into this kind of thing of 492 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,960 like, hey, have really efficient proofs of what happens on chain, 493 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,360 off chain, which is I guess like ZK proofs. 494 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,920 Do you feel like ZK proofs are kind of enable these properties 495 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,040 for like any block chain or is this? 496 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,560 Yeah, yeah. So maybe like talk a little bit 497 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,040 about like the kind of the role of like clients and how the 498 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520 technical challenges around efficient like clients. 499 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,040 Yeah. So I think that like the thing 500 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,600 about like clients is that it is true that let's say if you're 501 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,520 wanting to build a like client for Ethereum, there's a ton of 502 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,160 technical challenges you have to overcome because Ethereum is a 503 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,360 complex protocol. You know, you need to somehow 504 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:27,440 prove that somebody correctly executed all of that and show it 505 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,080 to your like client. That is actually very difficult. 506 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,280 So how Mel? So the thing about Mel is that 507 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,120 it's not really dealing with the same problems as like clients 508 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,920 for existing L ones are dealing with the the the thing about 509 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,840 metal is that because we're making a new layer one, we can 510 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,360 design everything in a way that it's easy to prove to buy 511 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920 clients. So, you know, there's a ton of 512 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,120 things that goes into that, like putting everything in Merkel 513 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,360 trees in a using a very simple UTXO model. 514 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,880 The upshot is that it's it actually turns out to be very 515 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,280 easy to prove to a lie client that we came to consensus on 516 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,640 this. This part of the state says this 517 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,720 without using ZK proofs. Now, of course teacher proofs 518 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,400 can compress this, but even without that, it's very 519 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,800 efficient. And I think that so, so this is 520 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,400 one part like how easy it is to actually prove the state. 521 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,040 The other part is actually like, I think that there's a lot of 522 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160 awareness in this space that like clients are good. 523 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,960 But I think that what Mel really sees is why like, what can you 524 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,680 do with like clients? And I think that we're currently 525 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,480 in this blockchain space, we tend to think of like clients as 526 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,240 a scaling technique for, you know, like doing things like 527 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,120 cross chain things. It's really about how do you 528 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,480 make the blockchain better? But Mel's insight is that if you 529 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,400 have really, really good like so you just, it's not just enough 530 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,800 to have like clients. You need the like clients to, 531 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,320 for example, be very, very light and you know, allow them to, for 532 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,080 example, go offline for long periods of time without losing 533 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,320 security. You combine a lot of these 534 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,000 features. You have this like super powered 535 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,000 like lines, then you can build categorically different and much 536 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,880 bigger and better applications than what the blocking ecosystem 537 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,080 is focused on right now. So if you think about kind of 538 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,800 like this sort of decentralized Discord, let's just think about 539 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,960 the architecture of this. It's actually very simple. 540 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,560 You simply start with a system like Matrix and you put a 541 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,560 mapping between your username and which server you're on onto 542 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,360 the blockchain. So you know, for example, 543 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,240 currently maybe Brian Crane is at matrix.org, tomorrow it might 544 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,480 be at briancrane.com. You know, this mapping on chain 545 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,560 and in your actual like chat client, you look up this mapping 546 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,760 to see where, which server to contact to talk to this guy. 547 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,400 So it's literally just this very simple little thing on the 548 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,880 blockchain and you, you have to be able to look at that securely 549 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,840 with like lines. But after that, it's a 550 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,840 completely conventional traditional Internet system. 551 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,160 It's just a Federated chat system, just like Matrix or 552 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,520 e-mail. And so Mel's insight is that if 553 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,600 you have good like clients, you can start building things like 554 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,160 this and you can easily build full stack decentralized user 555 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,000 sovereign software by putting a little bit of things on the 556 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,920 blockchain and having every single user look at it. 557 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,240 And I think like, I think that's something that's hard even if 558 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,440 you have, let's say, if you're like clients, because if you're 559 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,440 like clients, for example, they have to be online all the time, 560 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,920 they're not that light. You know, other block chains 561 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,000 have similar caveats. So if you're like client, they, 562 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,200 they tend, even when they do have like clients, they tend to 563 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,720 not be optimized for this kind of use case because that's not 564 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,640 what they're thinking about when they're designing the light. 565 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,960 So that that means you can't build a system like this 566 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,760 practically on these other watchings. 567 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,840 But you cannot know and I think this is the key in section. 568 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,720 So in this example of the the discord like thing, so the thing 569 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:16,000 that you would put on chain, so you said a mapping of usernames. 570 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,960 So let's say, you know, crane the air for some sort of thing 571 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,080 like that. You'd you said the mapping of 572 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,080 usernames and servers you put on. 573 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,560 Can you explain that a little bit more? 574 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,280 Yeah, definitely. So, so let's just use e-mail as 575 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,120 an example, right? So currently you might have 576 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,400 crane bf@example.com and that's your identity. 577 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,640 So your identity is owned by example.com and this means that 578 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360 you don't have a free market in providers. 579 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,640 If you switch to a different provider, then you don't keep 580 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,720 your identity. So this is the first problem. 581 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,560 So the first problem is that we you don't own your identity, 582 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,920 somebody else owns your identity. 583 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,920 The other problem is that end to end encryption is hard. 584 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,720 You might use PGP to encrypt your emails, but how are you? 585 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,040 How are people going to know your public key, right? 586 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,720 So, So what ends up happening is that you don't have good 587 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,200 encryption and you don't control your identity and basically the 588 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,040 the situations that the provider has sovereignty over. 589 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,880 They see everything they own. You don't own your own yourself 590 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,680 like example.com owns you. Now let's just add to this 591 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,720 e-mail system a very basic layer which is a mapping between crane 592 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,040 BF, like a global username, not crane bf@example.com. 593 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,880 So crane BF with an ENS like system map, map that to 594 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,800 example.com comma your public. So you put that on chain. 595 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,800 So, so, so here's here's what'll happen then. 596 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,560 Now when I want to talk to Crane BF, I just need to make send a 597 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,880 message to Crane BF and my chat client immediately knows which 598 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,600 server to contact and what public key to encrypt my message 599 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,920 with. So I meant send the message to 600 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,640 Crane BF and you get it. And you know, I don't have to 601 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,400 know your server or your public key and I don't have to trust 602 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,800 anybody else to tell it. It's trustlessly stored on the 603 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,400 blockchain. And I looked at it with my like 604 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,880 client. So I verified that information 605 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,880 myself. Now tomorrow, let's say 606 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,520 example.com becomes this draconian censorship machine. 607 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:23,760 They don't like you anymore, so you switch. 608 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,719 Great. I'm going to go to like foobar 609 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,719 dot XYZ. So all I need to do is register 610 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:34,239 an account at foobar crane DF at foobar dot XYZ, point my thing 611 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,280 to foobar dot XYZ and continue using the software. 612 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,600 I don't have to like my identity is not owned by example.com. 613 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,080 I'm just like they have to serve me. 614 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,920 I'm just their customer. I can go switch to anybody else. 615 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,239 So what this really means is that there's going to be like 616 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,600 free market in providers. You can switch with no cost and 617 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,240 the providers don't can't decrypt your messages. 618 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,680 All they're doing is offering storage and relaying services. 619 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,520 And if you don't like the server, you can switch to 620 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,120 somebody else. And so, so you have so 621 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,000 architecturally this is still e-mail. 622 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,920 It's literally just e-mail, but with this little on chain bit 623 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,160 that the clients look at. And but because of this, then 624 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,400 this whole system is user sovereign, end to end, encrypted 625 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:24,120 and honestly decentralized. And trust us, it's Web 3. 626 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,640 It's no longer Web 2 by the addition of this little piece of 627 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,880 piece on the block. So I think this is really what 628 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,920 Mel is all about. You can start building these 629 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,120 systems where you can sprinkle this like Web 3 Pixie dust on a 630 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,640 on a traditional Web one protocol and you get something 631 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,320 that's radically more secure, more user sovereign, more 632 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,920 decentralized. And this only works if the the 633 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,800 the kind of like off chain parts can compose with the on chain 634 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000 parts securely using white clouds. 635 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,520 So we talked a bit about this thing of like basically the 636 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,840 communication and to sort of community aspect. 637 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,240 What What are the other use cases that you're most excited 638 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:10,960 about this technology enabling? Well, I think that The thing is 639 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,880 that it's going to compose like layer by layer, right? 640 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,960 Like if you think about how do humans interact, there's really 641 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,800 two big things. One is transactions. 642 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,240 I need to be able to send you money. 643 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,760 The other is communication. I need to talk to you. 644 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,360 Now, if we can talk to each other and send each other money, 645 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,760 we can do business and create value and create things. 646 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,280 So what mail is really about is building the infrastructure to 647 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,720 allow this kind of value creation that unlocks these 648 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,080 opportunities of people interacting and building things 649 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,840 that previously don't exist. So, you know, you could imagine 650 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,800 some DAO on this discord like thing comes up with some really 651 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,560 cool idea of some public good funding system, let's say, and 652 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,480 they they're operating that. Well, that's a use case that's 653 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,280 only enabled by mail, but it's not directly. 654 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,840 It's more like we have we build the infrastructure to let people 655 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,080 interact. And that's just like the how the 656 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,120 Internet works, right? The Internet doesn't, it's not 657 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,800 really like Riverside FM is a IPV 4 use case. 658 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,320 Well, technically it is, but it's not like IPV 4 is designed 659 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,160 so that, OK, one use case would be Riverside dot FM. 660 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,920 It's more like, it's such a general purpose liberating tool 661 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,720 that allows people to innovate systems like Riverside dot FM. 662 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,560 And you know, of course you can think of specific things you can 663 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,760 build on other than the Discord thing, for example, I've also 664 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,120 written blog post sketching out how you can build decentralized 665 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:43,040 incentivized MMO games on in this paradigm, How you can, you 666 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,440 can also build things like, you know, much better file storage 667 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,600 networks that are truly free market and not based on 668 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,480 tokenomics, unlike, you know, file queen, etcetera, but truly 669 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,120 based on you just pay your provider. 670 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,560 These are all things you can easily build within this whole 671 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,960 paradigm. And I think that we already know 672 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,600 how to innovate like this because it's just the Internet. 673 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,280 It's the whole Internet paradigm. 674 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,280 The only difference is that now with like clients, you can get 675 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,680 decentralized consensus on secure security critical things 676 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,440 whenever you need it. But once you have that, you 677 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,760 don't need to reinvent the wheel. 678 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,880 We know how to build Federated protocols. 679 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,720 We know how to build peer-to-peer file transfer 680 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,200 protocols. We know how to build web hosting 681 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,120 protocols. We know how to host HTTP 682 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,880 servers. We just need to compose those 683 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,400 with pieces that let us incentivize and decentralize 684 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,320 all. You know, one of the main things 685 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,600 that people do on block chains is, you know, smart contracts 686 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,960 and you know, Turing complete smart contracts and then build 687 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,600 all kinds of stuff on that. Is that something that mail, the 688 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,160 mail chain is also able to do or like what's your view on like 689 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,320 smart contracts? Well, I think there are 690 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,760 excellent abstraction for what they're used for right now, 691 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,240 which is Defy and making financial instruments. 692 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,520 I mean, Mel technically has terrain complete smart 693 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,280 contracts, even though it has a UTXO model. 694 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,840 So you could do it on layer one. But I would imagine in the Mel 695 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,440 ecosystem, most people would not be doing this in layer one. 696 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,360 It would be let's say on AZK roll up on Mel that is EVM 697 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,560 compatible. So that kind of thing would work 698 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,280 much better. So that's how I think about it. 699 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,920 I think it's a great tool as its job. 700 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,480 I don't think it should be the World Computer, and it shouldn't 701 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,360 be what defines Web 3. It's simple, one kind of 702 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,920 decentralized app that makes sense in the ecosystem. 703 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,440 Yeah. And it shouldn't be the world 704 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:47,720 computer because of like one, is it like scalability issues if 705 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,120 you try to put all the smart contracts on the chain? 706 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,040 Or it's also because you feel like just by having like 707 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,200 clients, you can do a lot more things that are, you know, off 708 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,640 chain where today you do it on train. 709 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,560 Like the whole reason why we feel like scalability is a 710 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,360 problem is because we have to do everything on chain. 711 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,360 So all we got to do, we got to somehow fit it in, right? 712 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,520 Mel's whole thing. And that's hard, right? 713 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,720 Like even if you have a very, very, very fast blockchain, you 714 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:19,920 still need to convince the whole world to this new paradigm, 715 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,080 right? Don't run servers, don't run 716 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,160 peer-to-peer nodes. Stuff all your logic on chain 717 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,240 and trust that the nodes on whatever blockchain will run it 718 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,640 for you. I mean, that's like how ICP was 719 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,880 trying to do it, for example. That's difficult like that. 720 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,040 I don't think that's like even if it could work, it's very 721 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,240 difficult. It requires rewriting the whole 722 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:42,840 Internet. Mell's approach is actually 723 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,200 that, you know, given that we have good like lines, why do we 724 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,120 need to do that? We can build our Internet 725 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,040 protocols the way people have done for decades. 726 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,880 We know how to do that in a scalable and sustainable way, 727 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560 except that now we can make those things decentralized and 728 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,600 secure whenever we need to by reaching for the blockchain to 729 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,360 compose with Unchained logic whenever we need to, but not by 730 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,720 using the blotching as a world computer that the whole 731 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:13,680 ecosystem lives on. Now that's a paradigm that I 732 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,520 don't think generally works and has worked in the past. 733 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,760 One analogy I like to use is the Internet versus telecom before 734 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,320 the Internet. So telecom before the Internet 735 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,880 is basically this one world phone network approach. 736 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,840 The whole world was one integrated telecom system from 737 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,800 application to the infrastructure. 738 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,360 All the innovation happened on the base layer. 739 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,080 You know you'd want better quality phone calls. 740 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,240 Base layer, you want, you know, pagers so that you're a device 741 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:44,600 can buzz when you get a phone call. 742 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,720 That's the job for the base layer. 743 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:50,120 Everything requires infrastructure level base layer 744 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,200 improvements. Now what the Internet really 745 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,400 realized is that actually we can make the base layer composable, 746 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,600 simple and neutral. It's just a packet routing 747 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,720 layer. You know, it doesn't need to 748 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,320 have any features, it just needs to sit there and move stuff and, 749 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,080 you know, composed with other networks. 750 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,520 So it's actually decentralized in a way the Internet and then 751 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,880 we can leave as long we can allow anything to use it across 752 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,920 this telecom stock whenever they need to and then we're done, 753 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,760 right? Like market innovation takes 754 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,440 care of the rest. AT&T did not need to invent 755 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,600 every single website. And I think we need, we're going 756 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,680 to see something very similar in Web 3, which is that the early 757 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,920 paradigm of doing everything in the base layer, that's easy to 758 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,480 build out at first, but it really is inherently limiting 759 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,880 because it means that all sorts of key innovations require 760 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,720 improving the base layer, like you're adding CK stuff, 761 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,400 improving throughput, you know, improving storage capacity. 762 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,720 And it's actually worse with box chains because every time you 763 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,800 change the base layer, it's governance and you run into the 764 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,320 issue of if you change a base layer all the time, is it even 765 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,000 decentralized? Or is it, you know, actually 766 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,360 controlled by the deaf team? But even ignoring that, right, 767 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,840 this is just architecturally like very slow and very like 768 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,720 limiting. If we can have like a stable 769 00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:14,080 base layer that just sits there so that you can put things on it 770 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:18,200 that need global consensus and you innovate and build protocols 771 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,640 elsewhere, I think that's copying the success story of the 772 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,960 Internet that really took telecom to like unimaginable new 773 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,440 level by decoupling the base layer from the apps. 774 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,240 So I think like that's how I'm thinking about where mail is 775 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:37,280 going. And then so it's a, you know, 776 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,760 the thing mail that you're building here, it's a proof of 777 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:47,880 stake layer one. So let's talk about this a 778 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,120 little bit. So it's UTXO proof of sake base 779 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,760 layer one. So for example, for consensus, 780 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,400 how does the consensus work? Well, we use like a Byzantine 781 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,440 fault tolerant consensus protocol called Streamlet. 782 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,200 So I as far as I'm aware, we, we might be the only blockchain to 783 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,720 actually use that in a production system. 784 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,920 So Streamlet is a BFT algorithm invented in 2020 that's actually 785 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,040 designed for pedagogy like, you know, teaching people how BFT 786 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,400 works. So it's a BFT protocol designed 787 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,040 to be as simple and easy to explain as possible. 788 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,320 And we chose that because we wanted we want our base layer to 789 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,360 be as simple and easy to explain and easy to implement as 790 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,280 possible. So we picked this kind of BFT 791 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,720 algorithm. I really suggest everyone read 792 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,520 the paper like of Streamline. It's surprise, it's shocking how 793 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,520 simple you can make a BFT algorithm. 794 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,760 Like it's basically as simple as Bitcoins consensus, except it's 795 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,680 proof of stake and it achieves finality. 796 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:53,440 So we need finality for good like clients so we we pets 797 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,760 stream. Yeah. 798 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,640 And and then if you, I mean a lot of people will be familiar 799 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,800 with tenement, you know which is I think sort of like the 800 00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:09,440 generally also considered like you know a very simple BFT proof 801 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,520 stake system. So but stream that is even 802 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,160 simpler? Or like in what ways is it 803 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:15,760 simpler than something like tenement? 804 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,200 Well, I think it's kind of hard to explain. 805 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,640 It is just literally way simply like the paper is much shorter, 806 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,560 it's much more obvious after you read it how to implement it and 807 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,680 why it's correct. So it's actually built on top of 808 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,720 a lot of previous work, including Tendermint. 809 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,840 It's really the product of a lot of work done by the office of 810 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,320 that paper to really build the easiest to explain and implement 811 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,560 BFT algorithm. So yeah, like with Tendermint, 812 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,720 for example, there's the several rounds of voting and all of 813 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,200 that. You know, it's kind of tricky to 814 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,480 understand why that's that you need to do that and how to 815 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,640 implement it correctly. With Streamlet, it's much 816 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:59,280 easier. So it's also in Lineage. 817 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,840 I would say it's closer to like hot stuff and Casper BFT. 818 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,280 It's more like a kind of like a chain based BFT rather than a 819 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,640 voting based BFT. So like, but but that's like 820 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,280 more of a technical detail. But I like I think that it's by 821 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,120 far like the simplest BFT algorithm I've seen, and after I 822 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,200 implemented I realized its performance characteristics were 823 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,720 good enough for our use case, so we decided to use them. 824 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,800 OK. So yeah, so we have this simple 825 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,600 proof of stake BFT system. We also maybe we can talk about 826 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,080 the UTXO thing briefly. I mean UTXO of course you know, 827 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,920 everyone knows like Bitcoin uses UTXO, There are other chains, 828 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,320 right that have tried to do UTXO things for smart contracts. 829 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,680 But like what are the pros and cons between the sort of account 830 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,800 based model that Ethereum has and UTXO based model? 831 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,720 Well, how I'm thinking about it is that if you're trying to do 832 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,360 smart contracts, if you're trying to make an Ethereum 833 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,440 killer, don't use the Utxos. It's a bad idea. 834 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,960 Like that's, you know, like I don't think Utxos are the right 835 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,680 model If we're trying to do a basically an accounts based on 836 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,680 our contract model, we like it's trying to simulate that on your 837 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,520 UTXO is possible, but don't try that. 838 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,040 It's not a good idea. There are other blushes that 839 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,560 have tried that and I don't think it's a great idea. 840 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,800 Now, why did Malik use Utxos is precisely because it's trying to 841 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,960 do something very different from block chains like Imperium. 842 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,520 The the big advantage of the Utxel model that there's the 843 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:46,160 reason why Mel uses it is that it makes all the state and all 844 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,920 the data on chains structured rather than unstructured. 845 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,600 So if you think about, let's say on Ethereum, if you're building 846 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,280 a system like ENS, even if you have like clients, how do you 847 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,200 know what name you know creating the FS map to? 848 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:09,280 You have to call a contract and run EVM code, and that EVM code 849 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,200 accesses something in the state dynamically and tells you the 850 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,560 answer. That's just inherently very 851 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,640 complicated. If you have a like client, that 852 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,680 means many, many round trips to request a little pieces of data 853 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:26,560 your contract needs to execute. It means implementing a whole 854 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,640 EVM interpreter in your like client. 855 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,200 And all of this is because the on chain data in a smart 856 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,280 contract base model like account based model is legible to the on 857 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,080 chain code. It's not legible to somebody 858 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,040 just looking at the blockchain from the outside. 859 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,800 With the UTXO model that's very different because the actual 860 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,840 UTXO graph is structured, you can traverse it objectively 861 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,480 without running on chain code. So you can design your contract 862 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,840 to simply encode, let's say your mapping in the structure of the 863 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,800 UTXO graph. And then you can just look up 864 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,720 that structure, traverse it with a like client without running on 865 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,920 chain code, without diving into little pieces on chain. 866 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,160 So that's the number one reason why we use the QTXL model. 867 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,120 I think it's the best model if your main use case is to expose 868 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,440 data in a way legible to off chain like clients. 869 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:28,000 Because you can basically, I, I guess if I paraphrase it, if I 870 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,600 get it correctly, I can in Ethereum, basically because you, 871 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,920 you don't really, you know, you have different transactions and 872 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,240 you don't know what they like. You know, you sort of have to 873 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:41,480 know the state of the chain to know how that transaction 874 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,640 effects like other parts of the chain. 875 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,080 Yeah, exactly. It's not explicitly spelled out. 876 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,560 Yeah. Whereas here you could just 877 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,880 basically take the UTXOS that you know relate to a particular 878 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,480 username and then as long as you see those UTXOS then like you 879 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,000 can kind. Of yeah, and you can also trace 880 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,320 your history back, you see, see where they came from. 881 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,560 And you can use like on chain contracts to encode a shape in 882 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,080 it. Like for example, I actually 883 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,920 once wrote a paper there a long time ago of encoding a naming 884 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,480 system in the UTXO graph of Bitcoin. 885 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,480 So you literally can use the UTXO graph as like a binary 886 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,680 search tree and like build a tree and then you can, you know, 887 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:26,600 you can sell like what 01010 is one that means Brian, whatever. 888 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,080 And then that's where you're binding. 889 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,600 So you can do tricks like this because the UTML graph is 890 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,400 structured data, not unstructured data. 891 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,680 I mean, I guess one thing that it could be interesting to go 892 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,080 into, but I don't know if if that's where we should go now. 893 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,320 I know you also have this sort of low volatility assets, but I 894 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,600 don't know if you should go there or if if there's some 895 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,880 other parts of the system that you think are more important to 896 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,240 explain now. Well, I think that like, I mean 897 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,160 that, that that might be interesting, but I feel like, I 898 00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,800 feel like the most interesting thing about mail is not actually 899 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,480 kind of its individual technical parts, right? 900 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,840 Because the thing about mail is that I think it's really easy to 901 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,880 like misunderstand it a little bit as, OK, it has all these 902 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,120 cool parts, there is a lot of cool parts, It has a different 903 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,560 consensus, a different currency, etcetera. 904 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,040 But I think what's really cool about Mel is what it lets you 905 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,440 build, right? So that's why, for example, 906 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,880 right now we're actually focusing mostly on building a 907 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,640 rental, which is this off chain data and money transfer layer 908 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,680 that is built on Mel. And that'll really be the like 909 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,840 protocols like a Rendell are actually where the ecosystem is 910 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,840 going to be built around, not like apps building on layer one 911 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,520 where like people running nodes on layer one. 912 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,160 So I think like that's an interesting thing about Mallory. 913 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,440 It has a lot of cool parts, but I think like what explains the 914 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,480 design decisions I make with all these parts? 915 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,640 Is this overall idea that how do you make a blocking that you can 916 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,840 use to build systems like, you know, a Rendell, like you know 917 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,160 the discord thing I mentioned so. 918 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,840 Yeah, so let's talk about air Rendall. 919 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,480 What's Air Rendall? Well, how so Air Rendall is 920 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,080 like, if you think about, OK, so the I think air Rendall can be 921 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,680 explained as like this way, which is like, it's a network 922 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,080 that you can use to transfer money and data both quickly and 923 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,400 privately. So you can think of it as kind 924 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,400 of like Tor plus Lightning Network. 925 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,560 So you know, you can plug your app back into it and send data 926 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,600 across or send money across and it's all off chain and fast 927 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,200 there there. But then there's two big 928 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,880 differences between Air Brendel and Tor plus Lightning Network. 929 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,800 The first one is that the nodes are incentivized and the nodes 930 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,160 are incentivized not through like a deep end like token 931 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,680 system. It's actually very simple, which 932 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,000 is that whenever you use resources on a node, you pay 933 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,040 them. You pay them with this same 934 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,680 payment channel system. So for example, I send a set of 935 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:04,200 packet of data through you, your node, and I have to pay a price 936 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,920 to user nodes resources. And we actually negotiate this 937 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,280 price with each other. So it's a free market. 938 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,520 There's no like protocol that coordinates all these prices. 939 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,520 People find peers that they're willing to peer with app prices 940 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,480 they're willing to accept. And the second pillar is that 941 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,680 Air Brindle is the first peer-to-peer network designed to 942 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,040 be censorship resistant against ISPs. 943 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:34,280 And this is actually really unprecedent because we think 944 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,280 about censorship resistance a lot in Web 3. 945 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,200 But we typically mean the other nodes on the network cannot 946 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,000 censor, right? Like Monero nodes can't pick and 947 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,840 choose who gets through. We don't mean the ISP can't stop 948 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,120 you from using the protocol. They can't ban the whole 949 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,440 protocol. And this, this kind of 950 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,640 censorship resistant, I call band resistance, which is like 951 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,480 it's resistant to ISP banning the protocol. 952 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,600 And it's very difficult to do that in a decentralized setting. 953 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,920 But I think it's very important because, you know, we're, we're 954 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:09,880 trying to build permissionless assistance here, right? 955 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,440 We're not, we're not saying, OK, we just don't, we, we don't test 956 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,120 our bank, but we trust our ISP. That's not what we're trying to 957 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,080 do. We're trying to build permission 958 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,400 lists that and that means we need to be censorship persistent 959 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,080 against our ISP as well. And so Arundel uses a lot of 960 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,760 technology I've developed for GEF, you know, my VPN project, a 961 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,640 lot of the research I've done in traffic obfuscation, in 962 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,280 censorship persistence to build the world's first decentralized 963 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,040 ISP, censorship persistent on transportation network. 964 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,880 So that's really what air rental is, is at a high level. 965 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,600 And that's only possible because we can build on top of smell 966 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,000 like, you know, the micro payments go on payment channels, 967 00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:56,320 kind of like Lightning network, but settling on Mel. 968 00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,360 And because Mel has much better light clients, we can do so 969 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,680 without forcing people to run heavyweight infrastructure. 970 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,120 You know, with Lightning networks, if you run the 971 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,120 Lightning node, it's basically a Bitcoin full node. 972 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,520 It's very difficult to do so on your phone, for example. 973 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,040 But with mail, you can use build, build payment channel 974 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,040 networks where the clients are very lightweight and can really 975 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,920 fit in every single endpoint. So that's just like one example 976 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,920 of how we use mail, but basically the incentive system 977 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,160 and the kind of like security systems, they're all built on 978 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,360 top of mail likewise. What's the state of the project 979 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,280 now? Like what, what have you built 980 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,200 and like where are you sort of in in the road map to making 981 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:45,000 this happen? Well, like currently for AR 982 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,120 rental, we're currently in an alphabet kind of situation. 983 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,600 We have like a few dozen nodes running, a lot of them run by 984 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,880 community members and overall like we're that's the current 985 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,760 focus of our development. So we're quickly iterating upon 986 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,160 of it upon it. We plan to launch the air rental 987 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,240 network into production later this year. 988 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,600 And then launching a rendall into production. 989 00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,520 That means. But that's that comes before 990 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,720 because the male proof of state chain is not in production yet. 991 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,360 Well, the male proof of state has a def net right? 992 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,760 That has been public for several years. 993 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,480 So the initial version of a Rendall would run on the male 994 00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,280 def net, but eventually we're going to upgrade that dev net 995 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,680 into a main net. So like a dev net, what wouldn't 996 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,960 be shut down, it would just be relabeled as the main net once 997 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,640 it's ready? And what's the what's the sort 998 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,600 of difference between the dev net and the point when it 999 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,360 becomes a main net? Well, I think the biggest 1000 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,960 difference is that right now we run all the validators, we 1001 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,560 nobody else has any tokens like. So that's the main difference. 1002 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,480 Once we actually decentralize the token ownership and allow 1003 00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,120 other people to learn validators and decentralize that, then it 1004 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,320 becomes the main. Yeah. 1005 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:08,560 OK, OK. And then what about like other 1006 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,400 parties building applications on mail? 1007 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,040 Like what's the state of that? Are there people building things 1008 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:21,880 and like is it sort of is there a developer ecosystem already? 1009 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,920 So we have a whole SDK for building things on mail, but 1010 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,520 kind of in the overall road map of the project right now, is it 1011 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,240 we're not we're not quite there yet with like getting people to 1012 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,840 build an ecosystem. And the reason for this is 1013 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,040 because, you know, if you think about a typical crypto layer, 1014 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,600 what launching the dev net is like closer to the last step, 1015 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,400 right? It's ready to develop. 1016 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,800 With mail, that's not the case because the ecosystem is not 1017 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:54,000 going to be built by people just running things on layer one. 1018 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,160 It's really about people composing with low level 1019 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,760 protocols within the ecosystem like AR rental. 1020 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,960 So I think like the how we're going to do it is that we're 1021 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,800 going to first launch AR rental with a big use case for AR 1022 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,640 rental, which is actually GEF by VPN project will turn into a 1023 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,680 front end for AR rental. So I actually move all of my 1024 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,040 users from GET into the AR rental ecosystem by just 1025 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,040 upgrading their software because the user experience is not going 1026 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,000 to change. They're just going to be using a 1027 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,080 Rendall. And that's like about, you know, 1028 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,400 half a million or more daily active users. 1029 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,280 They're going to be using this first big use case of a Rendall. 1030 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,160 And then I think like developer communities and people building 1031 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,960 on the system, they would naturally look to compose with 1032 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,120 this ecosystem, all the revenue generation happening on a 1033 00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,000 Rendall, building new applications on a Rendall, 1034 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,640 building other protocols like a Rendall, using it as a example. 1035 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,040 So I think by that's the phase in which it makes sense to start 1036 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,040 having applications build on this ecosystem, not when there's 1037 00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,360 only the layer one. This is kind of like the 1038 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,040 Internet, right? Like if you only have IPV 4, 1039 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,080 it's not really ready to build things on. 1040 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,400 But once we had e-mail, once we had TCP IP, yeah, that's when 1041 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,440 the developer ecosystem started for. 1042 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,000 So I mean you mentioned the the VPN, right? 1043 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:23,480 It's called GIF, so Arundel basically would would be able to 1044 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,960 perform all of the the kind of functions that people currently 1045 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,560 use the VPN for. Yes, and actually a lot more 1046 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,160 than that, because with VPNs you can only access websites, right? 1047 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:39,640 With Arundel, you're also able to host websites anonymously and 1048 00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,320 also browse other websites that people host on the Arundel 1049 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,440 network and also send money to each other. 1050 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,480 So it's like a general purpose communication and payment 1051 00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,880 network and then yeah, it's like a super set of what VPNs are 1052 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:55,040 able to do. OK, so so you can host website 1053 00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:00,200 anonymously of course you know we were like aware of the 1054 01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,120 example of that is like Tor today, right where you can. 1055 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,600 Yes, it's quite similar to the interface of Tor. 1056 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,280 Yeah. And then is it also like, you 1057 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,960 know, I think in your Tor website, you know, like a URL 1058 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,080 like the hosting websites anonymously, they also wouldn't 1059 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,240 have, you know, normal, it's not going to be like WW dot, like 1060 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,360 whatever, but it's going to have its own domain names. 1061 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,560 Yes, so in Torah for example, you have this long string of 1062 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,400 characters dot and that encodes your public cheap. 1063 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,120 And now the cool thing is that because we have male like 1064 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:34,800 clients, we don't need to do that. 1065 01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,240 We can just be a short human readable name dot haven, which 1066 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:42,960 is what everyone uses because, you know, we can store a naming 1067 01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,640 system then like as I, as I mentioned, that binds your name 1068 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,960 to your public key. So we can actually have really 1069 01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,800 human readable domain names and website names in this ecosystem. 1070 01:00:55,080 --> 01:01:00,680 I mean, I guess this is is also a potential use case or 1071 01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,920 interesting use case will be kind of, you know, replacing or 1072 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,280 competing with Tor. Yeah, absolutely. 1073 01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:12,360 I think that like ambitiously, I feel like air rental is going to 1074 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,640 kill Tor, right. And the reason is because like 1075 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,640 it's more decentralized because there's no like central 1076 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,120 directory server. It's also way better 1077 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,400 incentivized because if you actually serve the network, you 1078 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,320 get the market rate of like what people are willing to pay you. 1079 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,600 The problem with Tor is that it's all volunteer run, which 1080 01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,840 means that the only people running it are basically people 1081 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,840 with way too much money, which are basically spy agencies. 1082 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,240 And like, because why would anybody else actually do this 1083 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,160 for free? It's a lot of bandwidth, a lot 1084 01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,600 of risk. So like the, I think it'll, 1085 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,560 it'll definitely have better performance than Tor because 1086 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,120 it's also not going to be always overloaded because of this 1087 01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,240 incentive system. It also the the application 1088 01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,280 scope is much bigger than Tor because Tor is really just 1089 01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:05,280 focused on one particular kind of anonymity, while Arundel is 1090 01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,320 actually designed so that the user can select how much 1091 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,240 anonymity they want. They can get Tor like anonymity, 1092 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,440 they can get much better. Like Nim for example. 1093 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,840 They can use mixed that delays to get much better anonymity. 1094 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,120 They can also get very low anonymity for high performance. 1095 01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,840 They can just use this as a general purpose Internet and 1096 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,720 only for ISP censorship resistance, not for anonymity. 1097 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,480 And you can build like very high performance systems on it as 1098 01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,240 fast as like, you know, any other system. 1099 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:39,120 So I think like it's really what air vendor is, is that it's 1100 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,440 going to be this universal Internet layer that has the same 1101 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,680 interface as the Internet. It's like a virtual network that 1102 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,280 you can run any application you want. 1103 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,520 So yeah, I think like that's I guess what Arundel is, it's 1104 01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:54,600 really doing. It's kind of like combining what 1105 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,760 people already do with Tor with Nim with their regular Internet, 1106 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,160 with other peer lip P2P. All of these protocols in this 1107 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,960 one general purpose elegant abstraction. 1108 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,680 Cool, cool. Well, let's maybe let's talk a 1109 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:16,760 little bit about your low volatility kind of sable coin. 1110 01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:23,440 Why create something like that? Well, because I want 1111 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,600 cryptocurrency. That's the short answer. 1112 01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,320 I mean, if you think about it, right, like why did people 1113 01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,680 invent Bitcoin? They wanted a non Fiat currency 1114 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:38,840 like a unit of value, a like medium of exchange, a store like 1115 01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,400 and all of that, right? So The thing is that we tried 1116 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,960 with Bitcoin, we tried with other crypto, it didn't work. 1117 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:51,080 Every single one of them turned into a speculation token. 1118 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,840 It's essentially a mean coin in disguise. 1119 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,920 Nobody uses Bitcoin as the way they use dollars. 1120 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,040 And so like, and the reason for that is because they all have 1121 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:05,120 fixed supply and they, and you know, people's demand is 1122 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,160 volatile, so the price has to be volatile. 1123 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:13,280 And So what Mel is trying to build is I want to build an 1124 01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,840 actual cryptocurrency. I want to build something that's 1125 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:21,320 trustless, that's decentralized, but also feels like a currency. 1126 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,080 It's price shouldn't be too crazy, go up and down. 1127 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,920 People should be mostly using it to pay for things, not speculate 1128 01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,720 on like it's going to go to the moon, right? 1129 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,240 And that's the reason why it laid melt the currency. 1130 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:37,360 And the objective here is that I, I don't want to I don't need 1131 01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,960 to make a stable point. I just need to make a coin 1132 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:45,760 that's stable enough that it has a relatively state, but you can 1133 01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,840 do accounting in it, You can price tags it reasonably. 1134 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,440 So you want the price to look something like U.S. dollar to 1135 01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,640 euro rather than U.S. dollar to Bitcoin. 1136 01:04:54,520 --> 01:05:00,120 And you also can't use oracles because that'll make it non 1137 01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,560 decentralized. And I realized there's nothing 1138 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:06,240 else in the ecosystem like this. So I sat down and made made my 1139 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:09,880 own design. And what's that design like? 1140 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,400 Yeah. So the high level objective is 1141 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:18,000 that I want to peg one Mel to this unit called the Dusk, the 1142 01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,440 day of sequential computation. So a day of sequential 1143 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:26,680 computation is the cost of renting the fastest processor 1144 01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,000 core you can find and occupying it for a day. 1145 01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:34,360 So that's what a dusk is. So the interesting thing about 1146 01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:38,840 this metric is that it's one of the only metrics that have these 1147 01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,040 two properties. First of all, it's actually 1148 01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,440 stable in purchasing power over time. 1149 01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:49,600 So 20 years ago, renting the fastest computer back then for a 1150 01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:54,160 day cost about the same amount of money as right now renting 1151 01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,000 the fastest computer right now for a day. 1152 01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,440 In short, the fastest processor out there is about the same 1153 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,400 price to rent at any given point in time. 1154 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,320 So it's stable. The second thing is that it's 1155 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,280 trustlessly measurable. And that's the really cool part, 1156 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,040 which is that we do not need an Oracle to tell us how much money 1157 01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,360 this is. And this is because what we can 1158 01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:18,560 do is that we can design an auction on chain where we give 1159 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:24,760 away some tokens and we say, give me proofs of sequential 1160 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,920 work. So you can actually compute like 1161 01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,360 essentially A0 knowledge proof that you did a bunch of nested 1162 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:32,440 hashes, which has to be done sequentially. 1163 01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,640 And then you can prove, OK, I did this many hashes in this 1164 01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:41,840 many hours, give me the reward. So what this really gives you is 1165 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:43,840 two things. First of all, you get an 1166 01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,200 exchange rate between that token and how many hashes people are 1167 01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:49,920 willing to give up to get that token. 1168 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,960 This is market based, right? You don't need the Oracle for 1169 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,680 this. You can basically you can get an 1170 01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:00,200 exchange rate between token and hashes and then by how fast 1171 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:04,080 people are doing these proofs you can get an exchange rate 1172 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,840 between hashes and time. So finally if you combine this, 1173 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:13,080 you could get an exchange rate between your token and time and 1174 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,960 then you can use this to drive a stable clean mechanism so that 1175 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:21,480 roughly 1 token equals 24 hours. Does that make sense? 1176 01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,480 Yeah. But does that mean is it, does 1177 01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,640 it mean it's basically kind of like a proof of work as it's 1178 01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,360 still because like to get it, you, you do the, you do the 1179 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,800 sequential computation and then you get a token. 1180 01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,360 So if I want to get a lot of tokens, I'm going to run a lot 1181 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:43,800 of these CPUs each for a day. It's a, it's a little like it's 1182 01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,080 proof of work in that sense, right? 1183 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:49,400 Like you use proof of work to mint these tokens, but it it's 1184 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:50,960 not where the consensus comes from. 1185 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,120 And I also don't expect there to be lots of people doing this. 1186 01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,440 The reason is because in in typical proof of work, the way 1187 01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:01,240 it works is that you're printing these tokens and people kind of 1188 01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,920 like divide up a thick supply by how much like proof of work they 1189 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:07,680 do. And you know, if the token goes 1190 01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,880 up, then like people waste eat more and more power like 1191 01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,360 competing over this same pole of tokens with metals approaches 1192 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,760 more like if you do this much computation, you're guaranteed 1193 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,319 this much token. So what will happen is that this 1194 01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:25,160 will increase the supply of the tokens until it's no longer 1195 01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,319 profitable to mint, and then people will stop. 1196 01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:31,760 And so the minting is only used as an arbitrage mechanism to 1197 01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:36,240 keep the peg in check. It's not going to be profitable 1198 01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,160 most of the time. It's only profitable when the 1199 01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:42,479 protocol needs you to mint so that you push down the price. 1200 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:45,600 But you're still going to have the case that like, I don't 1201 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,399 know. So even if it's like roughly 1202 01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:51,840 stable, right, like it's someone else, it maybe it cost them, you 1203 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,160 know, $1.00 to produce like one token, someone else. 1204 01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,319 It cost them like, you know, 90 cents or eighty cents or 1205 01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:00,920 something like that. So 80 cents guy's going to mint. 1206 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:02,560 The $1.00 guy's not going to mint. 1207 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,040 Right, right, right. And then the $0.80 guy is going 1208 01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,439 to mint, mint, mint, mint, mint until there's so many tokens 1209 01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,720 that the tokens worth $0.80 and then she's going to stop. 1210 01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,800 I mean, I guess you still have kind of the downside here that, 1211 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,600 you know, if now male gets a lot of adoption, a lot of usage, 1212 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:23,319 then it still means that a lot of basically it's similar 1213 01:09:23,319 --> 01:09:26,640 amount. Or I mean, let's say now the 1214 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:32,359 male tone supply needs to get to like, you know, 5 billion 1215 01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:34,600 because of how much usage there is of the thing. 1216 01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,399 Then it still means that there's basically roughly $5 billion 1217 01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:44,560 worth of money will be spent, or you know, 4 1/2 or whatever to 1218 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,160 get those, to get all those tokens in supply. 1219 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,080 But that's the case with any system because if, if, if your 1220 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:56,520 EMS market cap goes up by 5 billion, you got $5 billion of 1221 01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:00,280 USD going to like Kraken or other exchanges and it's the 1222 01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,400 same thing it. Was not quite the same thing, 1223 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,000 you know, because if your price goes up like then, you know, 1224 01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,040 everyone's richer and like you didn't, you didn't have, if the 1225 01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:12,480 Ethereum price goes up and now it's 5 billion higher, OK, 1226 01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:15,320 there's looks a marginal buyer that will like bought at a 1227 01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,400 higher price, but you don't have to, you know, expend all of the 1228 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,840 money to kind of account for the increase in the market count. 1229 01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:25,640 Yeah, that's true. That's true. 1230 01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,360 But like I think the thing about Mel is that anyway, like if you 1231 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,200 actually read the paper where I describe it, it's not exactly 1232 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,960 that you have to mint out every single mill. 1233 01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:41,000 It's more like this minting process establishes a price feed 1234 01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,040 for how much does a market value mill. 1235 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:49,160 And if we need to print more mills, the protocol actually 1236 01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,680 prints more mills and you don't need like the amount of minting 1237 01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,520 doesn't increase substantial in that situation. 1238 01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,840 Like the minting people only indicate to the protocol that 1239 01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,400 hey, mail currently is overpriced, print more mails 1240 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,920 where mail is currently underpriced, stop printing 1241 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,240 mails. So that's really the only thing 1242 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:10,280 that it indicates. And then the protocol prints 1243 01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,120 more mail and it sells the mail. Yes. 1244 01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,640 And it sells the mail in exchange for the other token or 1245 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,280 say token. Yeah, right. 1246 01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:26,560 So basically in the case of how the mail supply increasing a 1247 01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:32,960 lot, does it mean let's say now it goes from zero to 5 billion, 1248 01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:41,480 then some of it will be I guess spent by people doing the 1249 01:11:41,480 --> 01:11:44,880 sequential computation and getting the mail, but some of it 1250 01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:51,320 will be people basically buying mail or like buying the same 1251 01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,320 token and exchanging it for mail? 1252 01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:57,880 Exactly, Yeah. So then it sort of also means 1253 01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:05,320 that a lot of the value of the growth of the sable coin or you 1254 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:09,720 know the the mail market cap would be sort of absorbed by the 1255 01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:11,840 same token. Yeah, exactly. 1256 01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,560 So the SIM token is overall designed as the value accrual 1257 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:16,680 token. So it also is where all the fees 1258 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,000 go to. When you stake SIM and read 1259 01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,880 validators, you got fees that are all denominated in mail as 1260 01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:25,080 people use mail. So the more people use mail 1261 01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,920 like, the more value accrual accrues to SIM. 1262 01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:33,320 Tell us a bit more about SIM. What are the sort of properties 1263 01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:36,320 of the same token? Oh, that's a much less 1264 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:39,400 interesting token. It's just a standard fixed 1265 01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:44,760 supply proof of state token or like there's nothing cool going 1266 01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:46,680 on there. And the reason why I separated 1267 01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,160 from Mal is really just because what's good for a proof of state 1268 01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,080 token is different from what's good from the currents. 1269 01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,400 Because for a proof of state token, you want it to be like 1270 01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:58,840 Accrue Valley, you want it to be fixed supply. 1271 01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,880 You want it to be like, if I own 1/3 of the network, I always own 1272 01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,600 1/3 of the network with money. You don't want them. 1273 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:10,440 So it's kind of like, you know, shares in the bank versus 1274 01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:12,840 dollars, right? That's kind of the idea. 1275 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,720 So I mean, a lot of proof of state tokens are inflationary, 1276 01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:18,160 right? For basically you're paying 1277 01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:22,040 block rewards to the to the validators, right? 1278 01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:23,960 For, you know, running infrastructure. 1279 01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:28,640 So if it's a fixed supply token, you don't do that here or like. 1280 01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,240 Yeah, I don't do that here because if you think about it, 1281 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,560 right, like inflation's not free money, inflation's you're really 1282 01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:40,320 imposing a tax on everybody else who's holding the token, and you 1283 01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:43,400 can just express that as a fee or you don't need to like 1284 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,360 inflate the token. So of course you need to design 1285 01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:52,040 the fee economy differently. But Mel's whole design ensures 1286 01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:57,680 that like this, the work that the, you know, validators put in 1287 01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,080 can be fairly compensated purely by transaction fees. 1288 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:03,960 And I think that's a more transparent design. 1289 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,960 It's also like more clear where the money is coming from. 1290 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,560 And, you know, it's also like just like more free market, 1291 01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,480 right? Because with inflation, that's a 1292 01:14:13,480 --> 01:14:15,800 variable that, you know, you need to centrally tweak. 1293 01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:17,840 It might be too high, it might be too low. 1294 01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,880 The market can't correct that because it's baked into the 1295 01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,840 protocol. With fees, it's different, 1296 01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:24,600 right? Like if the demand goes up, the 1297 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,560 fees goes up. If demand goes down, the fee 1298 01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,920 goes down. And it all scales as with the 1299 01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,360 actual social value of the Met Mel protocol. 1300 01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,680 You just have to design the right mechanism so that the 1301 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,080 validators capture that. And I think I have successfully 1302 01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:40,200 done so. It's quite a different way we 1303 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,240 charge fees from other block chains, but yeah. 1304 01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,280 Cool. Maybe else you want to talk 1305 01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,120 about? I don't know, there's, there's a 1306 01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:52,840 lot of other things, right, Like, for example, how like air 1307 01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,640 Brendal really ties into Mel's overall go to market and how 1308 01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,240 that'll work, right? Because I guess I touched on to 1309 01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,040 that, right, like gaff will turn into an air rental front end. 1310 01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:06,480 But I think like the bigger thing there is that once you 1311 01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:11,000 have a lot of users on air rental, then you have a ton of 1312 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,920 demand for anonymous traffic relay on the air rental network. 1313 01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:17,280 That means that you had the listener. 1314 01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:22,080 If you write a node, you can actually get a lot of those, a 1315 01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:25,880 lot of that demand as revenue. And this is also really cool 1316 01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:30,000 because what this means is that Arundel gives you a free market 1317 01:15:30,440 --> 01:15:33,480 for satisfying people's demand for the free Internet. 1318 01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:37,600 And I also envision a world where this means that Internet 1319 01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:41,480 shutdowns and Internet censorship becomes impossible. 1320 01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:45,080 Because if, if let's say you're some country and you shut down 1321 01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:51,040 the like international Internet, then the price for transferring 1322 01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:54,480 air rental traffic in and out of the country would go up like 1323 01:15:54,480 --> 01:15:57,000 crazy. And if you have like a Starlink 1324 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,440 or like a little cable across the, across the border, you're 1325 01:16:00,440 --> 01:16:03,400 going to make a ton of money by serving the air rental network. 1326 01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:07,120 So we're really, what air rental really does is that it uses the 1327 01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,320 invisible hand of the market to solve Internet censorship. 1328 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:12,680 And I think that's the thing I find the coolest about air 1329 01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,280 rental. Cool. 1330 01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,080 Well, thank you so much Eric for coming on and and thanks for 1331 01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:21,920 walking us through it. I think that was really great 1332 01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:23,520 and I think gave a really great overview. 1333 01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,280 I do think this is one of the most yeah, just like regional 1334 01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:29,080 projects, right. So they're really trying to 1335 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:34,080 think through things from from a sort of, you know, fundamental 1336 01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:38,320 design perspective of like what we actually want to do with 1337 01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:40,880 this. And then, yeah, so it's like so 1338 01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,480 many original things you came up with here. 1339 01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:46,040 So it's very exciting to see where this is going to go. 1340 01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:51,600 Yeah, definitely cool. If people want to get involved, 1341 01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,080 what's the best way to do so? Well, join at Discord, go to our 1342 01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:58,040 website mailproject.org. You can find all the links to 1343 01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,840 the right things there. So if you join at Discord, we 1344 01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,440 have a lot of live, lively discussions about research in 1345 01:17:04,440 --> 01:17:07,320 our protocol development. Just join the conversation. 1346 01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:09,440 Cool. Well, thanks so much, Eric. 1347 01:17:09,440 --> 01:17:10,520 It's really great to have you on. 1348 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:14,800 You too. Thank you for joining us on this 1349 01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:17,160 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1350 01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,160 week. You can find and subscribe to 1351 01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,920 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 1352 01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:25,360 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 1353 01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:28,160 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 1354 01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:32,120 the Epicenter podcast. Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for 1355 01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:33,840 a full list of places where you can watch and listen. 1356 01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:36,760 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 1357 01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,080 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 1358 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,320 If you want to interact with us guest or other podcast 1359 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,000 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter. 1360 01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:45,880 And please leave us a review on iTunes. 1361 01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,360 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 1362 01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:50,720 them. So thanks so much and we look 1363 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:51,880 forward to being back next week.