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Welcome to Epicenter, the show 
which talks about the 

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technologies, projects, and 
people driving decentralization 

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and the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Felix Lutch and today I'm 

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speaking with Idia Simos, who is
the Co founder of Rated. 

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Network. 
Rated is providing node operator

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metrics and ratings for the 
Ethereum network. 

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Hi Alias and the welcome to 
epicenter. 

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Thank you, Felix. 
Thanks for having me. 

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Huge fan of the show since since
I joined the industry. 

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So very, very glad to be with 
you today. 

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Awesome. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
I'm also really excited to have 

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you. 
We have a long history of like 

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working together in in the 
staking space. 

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And yeah, I've been really 
interesting to follow your path 

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and now seeing you your own 
project with Rated. 

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So, which is why we're here to 
talk about today. 

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But yeah, let's start with the 
classic basics of you know, how 

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did you get into crypto and 
ended up where you are today. 

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Cool. 
So first touch with crypto 

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started in 2013. 
I used to live with a really 

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good friend of mine. 
He found out about Bitcoin and 

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he started talking about it. 
Nonstop started building stuff, 

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talked about it even more. 
Initially I thought he was kind 

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of nuts and didn't really get 
it. 

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But then the more we talked 
about it, the more I got it, but

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didn't really pay attention too 
much. 

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When it really clicked for me 
was in 2015. 

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I'm Greek originally and so in 
2015 was the worst part of the 

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the the decade long crisis 
effectively that that Greece was

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in. 
And in 2015 we had capital 

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controls come in huge 
referendum. 

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Should we stay in the European 
Union? 

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Should we break away? 
That means also like leaving the

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monetary union, issuing our own 
currency. 

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And so capital controls. 
Was this really gut wrenching 

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periods if you build for for 
Greek society at large it like 

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crippled the economy all the 
young people left. 

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But like there are there are 
really visceral images that I 

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still have sort of in my mind 
of. 

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Very long lines of pensioners 
around each ATM that you see 

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like on the on the street 
driving around talking about you

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know 50 people, 100 people 
blocks like whole blocks worth 

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of of of lines waiting to get 
their weekly ration of money and

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and so at that point like I had 
the sort of the light bulb 

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moment regarding Bitcoin. 
I was like, okay. 

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I get it now. 
Non state money. 

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You're not beholden to this idea
of you know, institutions and 

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and and the way institutions 
work in you know, the modern 

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financial system and and I 
really found that appealing. 

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So then started, you know, 
researching more but again not 

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not being like very involved. 
It all sort of came together in 

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2017 with with Ethereum. 
For me, and in this whole idea 

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of, you know, applications that 
you're you're able to build on, 

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on a platform that has like the 
properties of Bitcoin but then 

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can extend this logic sort of 
arbitrarily, right? 

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Like the vision of the the 
world, computer and so on. 

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So spent the whole year just 
researching stuff, trading, 

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trying to build things with with
friends. 

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But by the end of it, I look 
back and I was like, well, 

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you're having like so much fun 
and you. 

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Resonate with like the whole 
mission of of self sovereignty 

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and just building something 
better than kind of the the the 

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alternatives which is kind of 
what is the status quo. 

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And I decided to commit myself 
full time to the space. 

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So I got a job with a fund 
called the Central Park capital.

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They were just starting out back
then. 

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I was the the first hire that 
they made as an analyst. 

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I stayed with them for three 
years, made a bunch of 

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investments. 
Build a pretty expansive data 

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platform while at the fund when 
you know Dune did it exist, 

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Token Analyst was like one of 
the one of the earlier data 

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companies that were looking at 
blockchain analytics 

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specifically and help them raise
a $75 million fund too. 

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And then I left and I joined the
startup called Bison Trails, 

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which at the time that I joined.
Was I was think it was employee 

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number 20 or so I was a protocol
specialist there. 

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I think it was the second ever 
person to be called the protocol

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specialist in in the industry. 
Although I know you you you have

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been doing like very similar 
work in your in your history in 

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the in the space of the first 
was Victor is my colleague who 

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who hired me in basically and 
Bison Trills as he was 

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validators as a service right. 
That's what we were building we 

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ended up building a pretty. 
Large platform I think at the 

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top of the market it was you 
know north of $30 billion on on 

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platform. 
A year later we're acquired by 

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by Coinbase and then I stayed 
there for for another year 

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before I branched out on on my 
own to found found rated with my

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my cofounder ours. 
But you know, super happy to 

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talk to you about, you know the 
internals of of of the story 

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there. 
But I want to, I want to let you

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ask whatever questions. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you for that background. 
It's really interesting to see 

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you like witnessing and I guess 
first hand in Greece and how it 

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meander to where you are now, 
like seeing blocks of pensioners

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and now you're seeing blocks on 
the Ethereum chain being full. 

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Hopefully so, yeah. 
I guess you know what stands out

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to me is like your you've been 
always like in this sort of 

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space around data and obviously 
that's sort of what rated is 

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focused on. 
So maybe just to start, can you 

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explain to us you know what what
is rated and So what are the the

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products you are building and? 
Sure. 

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So the whole thing that we're 
building, we we fit it under A1 

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liner which is reputation for 
machines and this is like a 

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really charged term you can fit 
like a lot of. 

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A lot of scope in it, but really
like the the mission of of what 

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we're doing is providing 
transparency into the 

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infrastructure layer of 
blockchains, right. 

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And we we started with the 
theory now where this is coming 

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from like the why are we doing 
this ties actually in pretty 

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well with you know 2015 and 
those lines of of pensioners and

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so on. 
I'm here, I'm doing what I'm 

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doing. 
I got involved in the space 

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because I really do think that 
we have certain opportunity to 

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build something better, 
something more compelling, 

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something more transparent by 
default. 

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But also, transparency is not 
handed to you right. 

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It's like, sure, the the source 
material is open. 

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Anybody could theoretically just
go and access the data, but 

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without the interpretation layer
you're really not improving 

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much. 
Right. 

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And and and the beauty of of 
blockchains is that actually 

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they allow you to go and get the
data but obviously you know 

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interpretation doesn't come out 
of the of the box. 

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So on a long enough time frame, 
I think we're working on systems

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and we're building systems that 
are by default a lot better than

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what the financial system for 
example is, is, is running on. 

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And I also do think that it is a
matter of time until things. 

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Migrate to the systems that 
we're working on now, how much 

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time that is going to be, that's
another story. 

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It could be 10 years, it could 
be 20 years. 

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But I think the fundamental 
properties of the things that 

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we're working on are undeniably 
orders of magnitude better than 

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than than the alternatives. 
So if you didn't take that to be

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true, then I also don't want to 
imagine that world where we 

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don't have. 
Transparency and visibility into

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kind of the the layer that 
guarantees it all, The layer 

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that actually packages, 
transactions, intents, whatever 

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that is, and transitions it, you
know, from a want to be done 

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state to a done state. 
It there is a protocol, there 

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are rules to be followed, but 
also like rules can be broken 

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and actors that operate the 
protocol and the base layer 

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could act selfishly. 
And acting selfishly means that 

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you, you impose a negative 
externality on everybody else. 

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That is not only everybody else 
that's around you and that's 

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honest, that's acting as they're
supposed to be acting or 

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expected to be acting, but also 
everybody that transacts on the 

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the top layer, which are really 
like the most important part of 

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the the whole, the whole 
equation, so. 

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That's what we're largely here 
to do. 

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That's the that's the mission. 
This is why reputation for 

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machines, right? 
And how you get to reputation is

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by indexing and contextualizing 
and building and and dispelling 

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the subjectivity of what is 
necessarily good and what is 

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bad, but also what is right. 
Just just merely providing the 

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context of what is happening, 
what has happened, how what is 

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happening fits in the context 
in. 

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Of of of what has happened and 
is this behavior like expected 

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or or not or what even 
constitutes a behavior that's 

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that's all the work that we're 
doing with data. 

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So it's at the moment we're 
operating on on Ethereum. 

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We we started with the theorem 
because it is I think the most 

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consequential piece of 
infrastructure on blockchains 

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out there by users, by 
developers, by assets that are 

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powering the the infrastructure 
and so on. 

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And we currently host a network 
explorer where the index is not 

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the block, it's actually the 
operator. 

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So we're basically 
contextualizing how theorem 

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infrastructure works and then 
you can be as granular as the 

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validator index. 
But then we're providing sort of

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abstractions in terms of. 
You know node operators and in 

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different pools and how these 
pools are composed of node 

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operators and then all the way 
up to sort of the global network

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state with the ability to 
actually like zoom in down to 

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like the. 
The most granular unit of 

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accounts I suppose is the 
validator index. 

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At this stage we also have an 
API which basically serves the 

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data that you can sort of see on
on the explorer, but also way 

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way more. 
To build interfaces to power 

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financial products that serve 
the infrastructure layer. 

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And we also recently released an
Oracle which is a gateway for us

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to bring the contextualizations 
that we we curate on chain and 

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actually be able to like power a
suite of products on you know 

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the Ethereum main execution 
layer. 

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Yeah, that's that's super 
interesting. 

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I I guess most people the the 
Blog Explorer is essentially 

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like the portal into the the 
crypto space, right. 

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Like many people's interactions 
with like when they first used 

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crypto, I mean aside from the 
wallet is probably like looking 

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at ether scan and looking at 
their transaction and it's it's 

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quite powerful because like 
yeah, like you said, right. 

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And initially everything is 
open, theoretically accessible, 

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but like how do you actually do 
it in practice? 

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So I guess ether scan like was 
like kind of the first wave 

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there to like really do it on 
the transaction level and maybe 

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did the application layer. 
And from what I understand you 

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are very focused on this 
infrastructure layer for the 

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proof of stake like chain, how 
does it work on the very bottom 

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layer and is that going back on 
your like sort of experience and

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bison trails or yeah, could we 
say that, is that how you? 

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Totally. 
So like the origins of of of 

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rated go all the way back to, I 
guess October 2020. 

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So I had joined Bison. 
It was like six months in or 

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maybe a little bit less. 
And then the beacon chain was 

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launching at the end of the 
year, and the Ethereum 

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Foundation put together a 
hackathon and the brief was do 

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anything. 
With all the data that the 

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Medasha test net produced and 
that's the last Test net before 

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the beacon chain infamous for 
like a Prism bug with like an 

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update that they they push that 
had a cloud flare clock to run 

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side by side was like the 
validator zone like sense of of 

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time and then it just like wiped
out. 

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I think 1/3 of the of the 
network's validators at that 

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point. 
Great that it happened in the 

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test net. 
And I guess that's that's what 

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testings are for. 
So my myself and and and my 

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friend Sid Shaker, he was back 
then I think the CTO of of Token

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Analyst and they had, they had 
just been apart by Coinbase if I

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remember correctly. 
So we we sat down and we 

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basically went on a two week 
Sprint where we just really took

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all the data that the the 
network produced and we. 

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Did like a very expansive report
on anything that happened from 

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like you know clients syncing 
times like even off chain data 

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to storage to how kind of the 
the the clients and the nodes 

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behaved over over like a the 
span of like 2 weeks. 

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Which is basically like when we 
run the the research to slicing 

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and dicing and diving super 
super deep in all the Unchained 

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data that we got. 
So you can I think you can still

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00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:39,450
find it on E2 data dot GitHub 
dot I/O. 

230
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,640
It was still called E 2 back 
then. 

231
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:47,680
So we did this hackathon. 
We keep we won Silver prize I 

232
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,560
think and we learned a ton from 
that. 

233
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,280
We we learned that there's like 
so much wealth of of data about 

234
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,920
the network and there is so 
little definition of actually 

235
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,920
how you can make this data 
useful. 

236
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,590
We learned things like. 
You know, performance, 

237
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:13,270
externalities, risk, but like 
primarily performance and you 

238
00:15:13,270 --> 00:15:16,710
know the risk and externalities 
thing was a was sort of 

239
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:19,750
realization that came a little 
bit later, but it's very 

240
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:23,430
subjective, right? 
Like people were measuring no 

241
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:26,910
common language and what 
performance actually means or is

242
00:15:26,910 --> 00:15:30,750
it uptime rewards, is it 
something else? 

243
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:36,670
No, no clear answers and then 
kind of overtime as I kind of 

244
00:15:36,670 --> 00:15:40,530
went about. 
My, my, my work at at Bison 

245
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:43,850
Trails and you know we were 
operating on north of 30 

246
00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:48,210
networks, I think 404550 maybe 
more. 

247
00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:52,330
I kind of saw this issue 
everywhere around me like it was

248
00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:57,530
a very narrow slice of of of of 
value in the world that I was, I

249
00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:00,050
was looking at, but I was kind 
of someone operating in that 

250
00:16:00,050 --> 00:16:02,210
industry. 
I didn't know how well we're 

251
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:05,420
doing. 
Altogether, I didn't know how 

252
00:16:05,420 --> 00:16:08,740
well we're doing versus our 
network neighbors or competition

253
00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:09,820
or whatever you want to call 
that. 

254
00:16:10,180 --> 00:16:12,060
I didn't know how the network is
doing. 

255
00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:15,580
I didn't even know how to 
articulate or I mean at least I 

256
00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:18,060
had like some sense. 
But in general, it was like, 

257
00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:21,540
again, pretty hard to even 
articulate what it means to do 

258
00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:24,380
well and what it means to not do
well and compare it compared 

259
00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:26,980
against what. 
And then I started thinking, 

260
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:31,380
well, if this thing is going to 
be super successful and run 

261
00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:37,990
incredibly consequential things.
On top of it, 1% of the world's 

262
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:41,710
transactions and finance, 
commerce, media, I don't know 

263
00:16:41,710 --> 00:16:44,550
you name it. 
That cannot be the case, right. 

264
00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:49,510
It it, it cannot run on 
something that is amorphous and 

265
00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:52,110
not like very well articulated, 
right. 

266
00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:56,430
And then at the same time you 
know you know it as well as as 

267
00:16:56,430 --> 00:17:01,030
as anyone. 
Proof of state grew from what? 

268
00:17:01,030 --> 00:17:04,460
Some I don't know. 
Hundreds of millions of assets 

269
00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:08,700
staked to the, the height of the
market at some like over $300 

270
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:14,420
billion at stake, which is like 
a massive number in in the span 

271
00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:20,060
of like you know, 3 1/2 years or
so and a massive increase. 

272
00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:25,780
So you're like there is so much 
that at stake quite literally 

273
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:30,380
and so little data about what is
at stake. 

274
00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:34,780
And so, so little understanding 
and then also like extrapolating

275
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:38,820
forward then then you're like 
well you know that that stake 

276
00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:41,860
element and nodes in general are
important. 

277
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,260
They are important because they 
they help these networks run. 

278
00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:48,100
If these networks are going to 
be valuable and they are to 

279
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:52,300
different degrees then security 
at that layer is important. 

280
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,060
The will functioning of a 
network is important. 

281
00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:59,380
How do we but but also like the 
the assets themselves, the nodes

282
00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:03,350
are valuable. 
Because they do jobs and they 

283
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:05,870
produce future cash flows. 
They're like, you know, it's 

284
00:18:05,870 --> 00:18:08,950
inflationary rewards, it's 
transactions, it's like all 

285
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:13,030
kinds of things. 
So we can actually like then you

286
00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:14,990
think you can actually build 
products out of that. 

287
00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:20,510
And in order to like help the 
industry move forward, you need 

288
00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:22,790
credit for those things. 
You need insurance for those 

289
00:18:22,790 --> 00:18:25,070
things you need like, you know, 
potentially even derivatives, 

290
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:26,550
right? 
Like you can do like lots of 

291
00:18:27,030 --> 00:18:30,660
cool things. 
To hopefully not gamble, but 

292
00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:33,700
like provide levers for people 
to like operate businesses in 

293
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:37,020
that in that space and actually 
contribute to running 

294
00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:39,340
infrastructure for really, 
really, really important 

295
00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:44,660
constructions, right. 
So, and then and then I started 

296
00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:50,100
thinking, well, you need like a 
third party independent guardian

297
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:55,180
of all that data to actually 
help power all of these products

298
00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:56,900
that you foresee in the future 
because. 

299
00:18:57,370 --> 00:19:00,250
You know a credit underwriters 
for example job is not to 

300
00:19:01,050 --> 00:19:05,810
wrangle blockchain data. 
Their job is to underwrite 

301
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:09,330
credit and and do that that that
type of type of work right 

302
00:19:09,370 --> 00:19:12,050
equally with with insurance. 
So, so this is this was kind of 

303
00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:19,730
like the initial impetus for for
starting rated that was also 

304
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:23,930
like relatively good with with 
data historically like I built 

305
00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:25,890
this data platform at the at the
funds. 

306
00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:31,730
When not much existed out there 
through that thing, I ended up 

307
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:36,130
being like one of June's 
earliest users before starting 

308
00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:37,770
until until I started the 
company. 

309
00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:39,930
I think it was #3 on the you've 
been dropping the. 

310
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:46,690
But then I got like, I got eaten
alive, you know, it was like you

311
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:49,570
gotta, you gotta run just to 
stay still and. 

312
00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:53,260
You know go go to work closely 
with with with Frederick and 

313
00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:55,740
Matt's there as like one of 
their earliest users feedback 

314
00:19:55,740 --> 00:20:00,700
that allow all all that stuff. 
So it felt like a natural sort 

315
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:06,660
of extension of my work putting 
putting infrastructure and and 

316
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:09,820
and data together and and and 
seeing what we can we can build.

317
00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:15,460
So I guess, I guess here we are.
Yeah, it's super interesting 

318
00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:20,530
because yeah like from 
experience many operators like 

319
00:20:20,730 --> 00:20:23,210
sort of struggle maybe. 
So you have to take these 

320
00:20:23,210 --> 00:20:25,530
different users I guess, right. 
Like the operator itself wants 

321
00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:28,530
to understand better how they 
are doing, maybe serve their 

322
00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:33,050
clients data on their rewards 
and like might end up trying to 

323
00:20:33,050 --> 00:20:34,610
build some of these systems 
themselves. 

324
00:20:34,610 --> 00:20:37,610
But then you know you know all 
the other operators have that 

325
00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:42,770
same problem and you're not the 
best like project obviously like

326
00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:44,450
because you might not want to 
share that data, you just want 

327
00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:46,490
to do it for yourself. 
So like obviously there is also 

328
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:50,860
need or a third party and then I
think so you basically have the 

329
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:55,020
side of the so like if you think
about the users for rated right 

330
00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:59,740
one is like the stakers or the 
operators or can you like sort 

331
00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:03,580
of talk about it in those 
layers, you know who is the 

332
00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:08,460
consumer of rated data and what 
are they using it for? 

333
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:12,300
Definitely. 
I'm going to talk to you first 

334
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:15,220
about kind of what I see and 
like very, very. 

335
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,040
High level and then and then go 
down to like the nitty gritty 

336
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,400
presently who's using us, how 
they're using us and so on. 

337
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:28,440
So I sort of see us in the 
middle of a possible network, 

338
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:34,800
right, of networks themselves, 
node operators that run these 

339
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:40,320
networks, capital and 
applications and there are like 

340
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,240
if you think about things today 
without rated in the picture. 

341
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:48,310
These are all connected, right? 
These are all sort of nodes in a

342
00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:51,590
broader ecosystem that are 
connected with one another and 

343
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:56,390
and what they sort of exchange 
between one another is 

344
00:21:56,870 --> 00:22:00,070
distribution, legitimacy and 
data, right. 

345
00:22:00,070 --> 00:22:02,430
And we can sort of exist in the 
middle of that. 

346
00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:06,990
We can basically help facilitate
a bunch of implicit value 

347
00:22:06,990 --> 00:22:11,470
transfers implicits like in the 
in the in the broader sense and 

348
00:22:11,470 --> 00:22:15,090
make them explicit. 
Help them actually materialize 

349
00:22:15,130 --> 00:22:19,970
easier more systematically and 
thereby hopefully just inviting 

350
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:23,530
more of that. 
Now all the way back to like 

351
00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:27,490
where we are today and the 
products that we have on on a 

352
00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:31,130
theorem we can can and we do 
serve node operators and the use

353
00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:33,610
cases. 
There are anything from, you 

354
00:22:33,610 --> 00:22:37,810
know, rewards accounting to 
performance monitoring or just 

355
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:41,200
being sort of a? 
A second source of truth to your

356
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,640
internal monitoring, for example
to performance benchmarking and 

357
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,920
understanding how well you're 
doing versus your your peers and

358
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,080
so on and I think increasingly 
more so, is like this idea that 

359
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,360
we have just becoming a data 
coop effectively, maybe 

360
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,720
explicit, maybe implicit, but 
you know, a shared cost center 

361
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,250
effectively. 
For node operators where your 

362
00:23:08,250 --> 00:23:11,930
job is not to wrangle data 
necessary but also like you know

363
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:15,130
there are node operators out 
there that have these 

364
00:23:15,130 --> 00:23:17,930
capabilities. 
But it's it's sort of awkward to

365
00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:21,970
think that you know now they're 
actually powering another node 

366
00:23:21,970 --> 00:23:25,570
operators reward accounting or 
or performance benchmarking or 

367
00:23:25,570 --> 00:23:28,690
even like the credit products 
and the accounting products and 

368
00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:33,170
the insurance products and so on
because there is like a large 

369
00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:38,920
surface for for moral hazards. 
There and if that sort of 

370
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,560
actually transpires then we're 
no better than sort of the 

371
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,880
mistakes that that have been 
made in in previous iterations 

372
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,640
of of the matrix, right. 
The other part of of of our our 

373
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,280
user base is pools and more 
broadly it's capital allocators,

374
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,120
right, because in you know in 
proof stake as you know stake is

375
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:03,720
one part of the equation. 
So how does capital get 

376
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,110
allocated into these? 
Into these node operators. 

377
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:10,510
So we're working with several 
pools like Lido, Liquid, 

378
00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:14,270
Collective, working with Stator 
and the things that we're 

379
00:24:14,270 --> 00:24:18,590
helping there is with the tools 
that we've built to better 

380
00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:24,230
manage the active set both in 
terms of deciding like who is on

381
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:27,390
boarded onto the active set and 
who might be off boarded one 

382
00:24:27,390 --> 00:24:29,110
day. 
I don't think we've seen off 

383
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:30,950
boarding from active sets yet, 
but it's. 

384
00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:33,940
Natural to think is that this 
industry matures, these things 

385
00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:35,140
are not going to stay static, 
right? 

386
00:24:35,140 --> 00:24:38,100
Like I mean specifically in 
Ethereum you couldn't even 

387
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:44,220
withdraw up until April 2023. 
So for the 1st 2 1/2 years of of

388
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:48,340
of the beacon chains existence. 
So even just evicting someone 

389
00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:50,660
from the set was really like not
possible. 

390
00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:54,100
But I'm sure that eventually 
we'll we'll see those things and

391
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,100
then you know compositions of 
active sets changing. 

392
00:24:57,830 --> 00:25:01,430
As a manager is like a 
custodian, as a steward, as a 

393
00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:03,590
whatever you want to call it as 
like you know this could be a 

394
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:07,430
douse, could be a company, could
be, it could be an interface, 

395
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:14,630
whatever that is you have to 
make decisions about the well 

396
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:20,590
functioning of your of your set 
and so understanding with it 

397
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:26,570
that will functioning is. 
And making decisions is all 

398
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:30,210
powered by data and this is what
we're what we're helping and 

399
00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:34,450
seek to do more of these these 
pools with. 

400
00:25:35,250 --> 00:25:39,330
Thirdly, you have applications 
and these are applications that 

401
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:44,490
basically reference the 
infrastructure layer to create 

402
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:47,970
new value, right. 
And that could be credit for 

403
00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:50,970
example like. 
So think, think in terms of we 

404
00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:53,470
haven't, we haven't really. 
Announced it yet, but we're 

405
00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:57,710
we're working in partnership 
with with, with the credit funds

406
00:25:57,710 --> 00:26:03,510
to actually trial out on 
collateralized credit for not 

407
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:06,350
operators based on their 
accounts receivable. 

408
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:12,070
So you think of it as pipe for 
for validators is a predictable 

409
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:16,790
stream of rewards and 
transaction fees that they earn 

410
00:26:17,470 --> 00:26:24,610
and thereby you could actually. 
Monetize that revenue, add a 

411
00:26:24,610 --> 00:26:27,650
premium to sort of the interest 
rate that you earn on the Beacon

412
00:26:27,650 --> 00:26:31,490
shape. 
There are interfaces that we're 

413
00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:36,570
powering with our API to help 
capital that sits on the other 

414
00:26:36,570 --> 00:26:41,130
end make better decisions along 
the lines of Okay, where am I 

415
00:26:42,370 --> 00:26:46,410
allocating my capital? 
To which operators am I putting 

416
00:26:46,410 --> 00:26:49,060
my capital to? 
Monitoring it on an ongoing 

417
00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:52,180
basis, revisiting that decision 
and so on And then you'd think 

418
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:56,940
that you know, Oh yeah, just 
like I just want some APR, give 

419
00:26:56,940 --> 00:27:01,260
me the maximum APR and and and 
then you know see you in a year 

420
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:06,620
or what, not sure that's how 
things really started I think. 

421
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:10,700
But then the more the industry 
grows, the more the industry 

422
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:15,860
matures, the more other factors 
are going to come into play, 

423
00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:16,940
right. 
It's like risk. 

424
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,480
Versus reward then you have 
things like eigen layer you have

425
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,080
more risk you have like you know
risk starting to sandwich on top

426
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,320
of like preexisting risk and so 
on. 

427
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:33,560
So without like well 
contextualized data world in in 

428
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,480
in that paradigm you can't even 
articulate those things. 

429
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,720
So and I like to think that 
we're playing like a like a like

430
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000
a virtuous role in in the 
ecosystem by helping people 

431
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,440
actually like articulate those 
things. 

432
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,920
So far it's been it's been a 
pretty. 

433
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,880
It's been a pretty, pretty 
exciting journey to get here. 

434
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,080
That's that's definitely the 
case for me. 

435
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,880
I think I also like, I mean in 
the end you see a lot of times 

436
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,120
the rated data, the aggregate 
data being used in like these 

437
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,000
sort of discussions around 
decentralization maybe right 

438
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,360
like now we talked a lot about 
contextualization maybe mostly 

439
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,440
on in terms of like performance 
and you know is the operator 

440
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,480
doing well, There's like these 
objective things. 

441
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,830
But there's also the wider goal 
of like I guess credibly 

442
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:23,070
neutrality, credible neutrality 
of the network and maybe 

443
00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:26,070
geographic diversification. 
Yes, which you are also looking 

444
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:30,510
at that like the end user being 
more the the wider network, 

445
00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:32,950
right, which I think is like a 
very nice outcome, right. 

446
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:36,430
You're kind of getting maybe 
money from the people that want 

447
00:28:36,430 --> 00:28:39,870
to like optimize performance but
also providing this this public 

448
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:43,790
good of you know what is the the
state of decentralization in the

449
00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:45,470
in the network. 
And I think you know there's 

450
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:47,950
like really really interesting 
things to see there. 

451
00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:50,510
If you visit rated dot network 
which will also make it a show 

452
00:28:50,510 --> 00:28:53,990
notes you'll be able to see that
for a theorem, you know like all

453
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:58,750
these things that is try to keep
Ethereum neutral or like 

454
00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:01,710
decentralized like you can like 
actually check is it actually 

455
00:29:01,710 --> 00:29:05,310
happening. 
So maybe thinking about that 

456
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:10,190
maybe can you like, yeah, talk a
little bit about how you think 

457
00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:12,510
about that and how you, how you 
see the current state of 

458
00:29:12,510 --> 00:29:17,410
Ethereum in terms of like its 
goal of becoming credibly 

459
00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:19,490
neutral is, is it actually 
happening like from from the 

460
00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:25,530
data you're seeing or where are 
maybe like things that need to 

461
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:28,810
like be worked on since I guess 
you were like probably one of 

462
00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:30,810
the people that has like the 
deepest inside there. 

463
00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:33,210
I think that would be nice to 
focus on that dimension. 

464
00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:38,890
I I think the theorem is on A is
on a really great path. 

465
00:29:38,890 --> 00:29:43,330
It's obviously messy and hard 
and. 

466
00:29:43,910 --> 00:29:47,830
Sometimes like undefined in 
terms of like where you're at 

467
00:29:48,910 --> 00:29:51,830
and how you're tracking in terms
of your of your goals, but I 

468
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:55,270
think undeniably it's like on 
the on that right path, right. 

469
00:29:56,150 --> 00:30:00,070
And I I'd like to also think 
that we're helping just push 

470
00:30:00,070 --> 00:30:04,070
that conversation forward, right
like I, I I still remember when 

471
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:06,110
we were starting out when we 
first launched. 

472
00:30:06,150 --> 00:30:09,470
So we, I think we first launched
the website in February 2022, 

473
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:13,350
then March, April around that 
like two months period. 

474
00:30:13,780 --> 00:30:15,820
It was like a big conversation 
about client divers. 

475
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:23,060
So I think Prism at the time had
80% dominance or or or something

476
00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:26,420
of that of that nature And we 
had just launched the the first 

477
00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:31,580
feature that we we we delivered 
on on the front end which is 

478
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:36,340
based off of Michael Sprouse 
work on on block print which is 

479
00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:39,100
basically an open source tool 
that fingerprints. 

480
00:30:39,550 --> 00:30:42,670
The proposal patterns of of 
validators and and works 

481
00:30:42,670 --> 00:30:46,870
backwards to identify which 
client they're wearing 

482
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:52,390
effectively And so we actually 
pushed that out on the on the 

483
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:56,230
front end and then we started 
getting shared all over Twitter.

484
00:30:56,510 --> 00:30:59,070
It's like client ever is the 
client diversity and now here's 

485
00:30:59,070 --> 00:31:01,430
like a way to actually measure 
client diversity. 

486
00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:04,990
Since then, client diversity has
massively improved. 

487
00:31:05,390 --> 00:31:08,990
We're now I'm just looking at 
the slash overview. 

488
00:31:09,820 --> 00:31:13,100
Screen and on the explorer and 
we've we've gone from like 80% 

489
00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:17,860
Prism to like 40% Prism 
lighthouses at like 35% Texas at

490
00:31:17,860 --> 00:31:22,260
17% and then the smaller clients
nameless and load Star are 

491
00:31:22,260 --> 00:31:26,580
actually like improving. 
We I'm not claiming we were 

492
00:31:26,580 --> 00:31:31,540
responsible for it but I like to
think that you know we had we 

493
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:35,460
helped and and that's all we can
we can really hope hope to do 

494
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:37,140
right just give people the tools
to make. 

495
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,120
Make the right decisions 
whatever the right decision is 

496
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,800
for for their objective function
also like in terms of another 

497
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,480
stated goal of the theorem I 
guess is resilience right and 

498
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,920
and just surviving like a 
catastrophic event in terms of 

499
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,920
censorship, in terms of war, in 
terms of like nuclear Holocaust 

500
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
and and and so on. 
And since the beginning of 

501
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,760
theorem had like a very strong 
focus in solostaking. 

502
00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:07,230
Right. 
Staking from from home which is 

503
00:32:07,230 --> 00:32:11,510
kind of antithetical to like the
whole proof of stake thing from 

504
00:32:11,550 --> 00:32:13,750
when you look at things from 
bottom up, right, because proof 

505
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:19,270
of stake is part capital or like
1/2 capital capital is dominated

506
00:32:19,270 --> 00:32:22,470
by power laws. 
So like just crushing those 

507
00:32:22,510 --> 00:32:25,150
those power laws is very, very 
difficult. 

508
00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:29,230
But you know if you if you 
transfer yourself back in time 

509
00:32:29,230 --> 00:32:31,150
and you think. 
You know when the beacon chain 

510
00:32:31,150 --> 00:32:33,310
was launching or even before it 
was launching and what the 

511
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:35,510
conversation was shaped around 
is like, you know Val days are 

512
00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:37,470
going to run from fridges and 
everybody's going to run a 

513
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:40,310
validator at home. 
And so in turns out it's like 

514
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:42,710
it's actually not that easy, 
right? 

515
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:47,110
32 eighth is a lot of money 
these days for for the average 

516
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:51,510
Joe or Jane, it's the 
interfaces. 

517
00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:54,430
I mean with things like DAP, 
note and so on, like tremendous 

518
00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:56,870
progress in making the whole 
solace taking thing more 

519
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:59,790
accessible, but it still is 
pretty daunting. 

520
00:33:00,430 --> 00:33:02,630
Like what happens if I validate?
Am I going to get slashed and 

521
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:04,790
I'm not going to get slashed 
like education around this whole

522
00:33:04,790 --> 00:33:07,990
thing. 
It's not like I buy a pack of 

523
00:33:08,150 --> 00:33:13,550
candy, no pun intended, from you
know, the kiosk or or what not. 

524
00:33:13,550 --> 00:33:16,710
It's actually like it takes like
a pretty long learning curve and

525
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:20,710
you either have to be very 
committed to some higher order 

526
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:27,720
goal to to be part of it or. 
You're just incredibly 

527
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,360
interested in sort of the nuts 
and bolts of it for whatever 

528
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,840
idiosyncratic reason. 
Again, like these two things 

529
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,280
don't make for like a hugely 
available market sandwich on 

530
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,040
top, like the capital 
requirement and everything in 

531
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,440
actually like is the pretty 
small segment. 

532
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,840
But we have found that be that 
as it may, if theorem does have 

533
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,320
about 6.5% of all the validators
that are active on the beacon 

534
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,670
chain being solo stakers. 
Which is a the tremendous 

535
00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:57,670
outcome, right. 
That's like in the billions of 

536
00:33:57,710 --> 00:34:01,470
of dollars running on on on 
people's homes and so on. 

537
00:34:01,470 --> 00:34:05,630
And and more interestingly even 
like if you if you now change 

538
00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:10,110
the denominator from amount of 
stake that is running to beacon 

539
00:34:10,110 --> 00:34:13,830
nodes which are sort of think of
it as the box that is running 

540
00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:16,989
those validators and you can run
like many validators on A1 box. 

541
00:34:17,630 --> 00:34:22,870
It's probably like our our best 
estimate there is 25% of the 

542
00:34:22,870 --> 00:34:26,250
network. 
Which is tremendous for like a 

543
00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:29,770
proof of stake network where 
really important stuff runs on. 

544
00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:32,690
Sure, it might not be 50%, it 
might not be 70%. 

545
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:37,290
But I'm contend that even if it 
was 6% of the boxes, that's an 

546
00:34:37,290 --> 00:34:44,210
amazingly resilient long tail of
operators where if the large 

547
00:34:44,210 --> 00:34:47,409
operators that have a lot of 
capital and are visible 

548
00:34:47,409 --> 00:34:50,489
companies and so on are easier 
to shut down in an event of like

549
00:34:50,489 --> 00:34:56,580
extreme censorship. 
That last line of defense which 

550
00:34:56,580 --> 00:35:01,580
is running in like, you know 
random homes or basements or I 

551
00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:06,300
don't know where all across the 
world is, is an incredibly sort 

552
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:11,980
of resilient backbone that is 
demonstrably helping Ethereum 

553
00:35:11,980 --> 00:35:16,700
like achieve, achieve its goals.
I think the last thing, the last

554
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:21,460
stronghold that. 
That that remains is really you 

555
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:26,620
know geographic distribution and
increasing increasing that and 

556
00:35:27,940 --> 00:35:33,380
execution clients diversity. 
So GET is, is is you know still 

557
00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:35,860
the dominant client. 
Something goes wrong with GET, 

558
00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:40,900
then the network will will 
experience, you know, sour times

559
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:46,660
like I think it was just this 
week or maybe late last week 

560
00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:49,790
when. 
Guess had a an issue with block 

561
00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:54,230
production and then together 
with how Prism actually decides 

562
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:57,710
where to build the blocks when 
when the validators are are are 

563
00:35:57,710 --> 00:36:00,990
boosted. 
They actually kind of we we saw 

564
00:36:01,030 --> 00:36:05,470
the network experiences lowest 
effectiveness since Chapela, 

565
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:12,670
which is a book, not really a 
frequent phenomenon like a 

566
00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:17,770
theorem, is running really well.
For for all intents and purposes

567
00:36:17,770 --> 00:36:21,610
and again like it was you know 
A2 Sigma event that didn't like 

568
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:24,010
no one bat an eyelid on the 
execution layer. 

569
00:36:24,010 --> 00:36:25,770
If you were transacting on the 
theorem, you wouldn't know that 

570
00:36:25,770 --> 00:36:29,970
this thing was happening. 
So you know they're they're 

571
00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:32,850
still like work to do from like 
a network perspective. 

572
00:36:33,770 --> 00:36:36,770
You know we're we're seeing that
the network is actually like 

573
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:41,650
pretty heavily concentrated you 
know in North America and in 

574
00:36:41,650 --> 00:36:45,860
Europe particularly when it's. 
Relating to what we've sort of 

575
00:36:45,860 --> 00:36:49,260
contextualized as professional 
operators and looking only at 

576
00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:52,180
that slice of of the network, 
but then you know you have 

577
00:36:52,180 --> 00:37:00,620
things coming up like DVD, so 
you know Oval, SSV device 

578
00:37:00,620 --> 00:37:04,860
working on a DVD solution of of 
their own. 

579
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:08,180
I think there are a few more. 
So the idea there is that you 

580
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:11,220
can, you know now separate sort 
of operation keys. 

581
00:37:11,610 --> 00:37:14,490
And custody keys. 
And then you can have these like

582
00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:17,650
fractional sort of staking 
schemes effectively. 

583
00:37:17,690 --> 00:37:20,090
So you can, you know, you can 
AirDrop A DAP note to someone in

584
00:37:20,090 --> 00:37:23,570
Africa and they can get started 
with like a very small amount of

585
00:37:24,010 --> 00:37:26,450
of collateral, you know, one 
eighth, half, an eighth, 

586
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:28,930
whatever that might be. 
And then someone else basically 

587
00:37:28,930 --> 00:37:36,290
puts, puts up the rest. 
So I'm generally hopeful now, is

588
00:37:36,290 --> 00:37:41,090
that going to be enough? 
To quell, basically the the, the

589
00:37:41,090 --> 00:37:47,570
power law, maybe not so, but it 
doesn't matter, right? 

590
00:37:47,570 --> 00:37:50,970
What matters is how strong that 
backbone is. 

591
00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:54,410
Because you know, when when push
comes to shove this is going to 

592
00:37:54,410 --> 00:38:01,090
be the last line of defense and 
and and that's what I think 

593
00:38:01,210 --> 00:38:04,650
matters the most. 
Yes, super interesting. 

594
00:38:04,650 --> 00:38:08,450
Also like just to see here about
the the practical issues right 

595
00:38:08,450 --> 00:38:10,620
now. 
I think, yeah, there's so many 

596
00:38:10,620 --> 00:38:13,940
layers that you theoretically 
want to have decentralized, 

597
00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:16,060
right? 
And then everyone of them is 

598
00:38:16,060 --> 00:38:19,260
like on a different level on the
spectrum. 

599
00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:22,220
Sometimes it's even subjective, 
you know, is it centralized? 

600
00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:24,620
Many people been like 
criticizing for example also 

601
00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:28,060
like Lido to be like 
centralizing but then again 

602
00:38:28,060 --> 00:38:31,780
right layer below there is like 
30 different operators operating

603
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:37,180
in Lido which can be overlooked 
if you just see like the 30% on 

604
00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:39,060
even unrated. 
But you guys have like the drop 

605
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:41,620
down right and showing like the 
different operators that operate

606
00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:43,860
lighter for example. 
That's right. 

607
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:46,460
Or even even on client 
distribution, right? 

608
00:38:46,620 --> 00:38:53,220
So I think Chainsafe, that is 
the developer of Lodestar which 

609
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:57,980
is like the 5th client that's 
available to run, run a theorem 

610
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:01,420
on validators and also like the 
one with the least penetration. 

611
00:39:02,170 --> 00:39:06,010
They are now running some like 
10,000 validators under Lido 

612
00:39:06,010 --> 00:39:10,490
with Lodestar, right. 
That's I believe something that 

613
00:39:10,570 --> 00:39:14,770
kind of Lido as the pool 
manager, the active set manager 

614
00:39:14,770 --> 00:39:18,010
in that sort of neighborhood of 
of of Ethereum and it's like one

615
00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:22,370
1/3 at the time we're we're 
recording. 

616
00:39:23,890 --> 00:39:26,730
I don't necessarily think that 
this would have happened like 

617
00:39:26,730 --> 00:39:28,050
this. 
You know, increase in 

618
00:39:28,050 --> 00:39:31,170
participation of Lodestar in the
mix of clients would have 

619
00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:34,200
happened. 
If a pool manager like Lido 

620
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,680
didn't actually design for it 
right. 

621
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,240
So there are like there are 
benefits and I it's it's it's a 

622
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:45,720
really hairy subjects. 
I generally don't have strong 

623
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,360
views. 
I tried I tried to be you know 

624
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,800
just the facts and like here's 
here's some data and you can 

625
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,600
make your own mind up. 
I don't necessarily have like a 

626
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,920
strong view on whether you know.
Having limits on pools and so on

627
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,960
is like the the right thing or 
the wrong thing. 

628
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,760
To some degree it is the market 
that will eventually decide, 

629
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,320
right. 
And I don't know that even 

630
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,040
having like at least you know 
for my own disposition that 

631
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,000
having like a certain opinion 
even matters. 

632
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,760
I see, I see positives, I see 
negatives, I see opportunities 

633
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,240
and I see, I see risks and I try
and I try to quantify them. 

634
00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:30,630
As best as they can. 
And then also, like you know, 

635
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:35,550
offer it to people to help them 
sort of make the best decision 

636
00:40:35,550 --> 00:40:39,990
possible for the network. 
Yeah, extremely valuable. 

637
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:44,990
I think we can building off the 
solo staker sort of discussion 

638
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:50,070
and I guess the wider sort of 
state where Ethereum is at right

639
00:40:50,070 --> 00:40:51,470
now. 
I think one very relevant 

640
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:55,190
discussion as we're recording 
this is around. 

641
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,640
VIP7514, right. 
So basically the amount of 

642
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,560
growth of staking that, that the
theory was experiencing and sort

643
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:10,480
of the design with 32 E per 
validator is like impacting a 

644
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,120
little bit the network 
performance as from what I 

645
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,040
understand. 
So I think it would be helpful 

646
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,640
maybe if you could explain a 
little bit the background of or 

647
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,400
what this change is about and 
and why it's happening and then 

648
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,340
maybe we can discuss a bit. 
Know what the implications are 

649
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:30,700
after that, but maybe we just 
give it like a bigger overview 

650
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:32,940
of what of what this is about. 
I think it's been like in the 

651
00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:37,980
news now and I think it is quite
relevant you know for many 

652
00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:41,740
network participants including 
like the operators of course and

653
00:41:42,580 --> 00:41:48,340
stakers themselves, right. 
Perhaps we should better set 

654
00:41:48,340 --> 00:41:51,020
some some context for for 
listeners that that don't have 

655
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:56,260
it right. 
So in Ethereum, validators are 

656
00:41:56,260 --> 00:41:59,580
basically the the unit of 
accounts in consensus. 

657
00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:05,380
It is kind of an instantiation 
of a water consensus participant

658
00:42:05,780 --> 00:42:08,020
that basically attests through 
the state of the network. 

659
00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:11,700
I see things around me in the 
flattest, most dumb sense 

660
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,500
possible. 
I see things around me and I 

661
00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:20,620
report what I saw basically. 
And then in order to have one of

662
00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:25,590
those virtual watchers or 
participants of consensus and so

663
00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:28,670
on, you need to have 32 E right?
32 E the neighbors one. 

664
00:42:28,830 --> 00:42:36,190
Now that doesn't mean that that 
one validator is also like a one

665
00:42:36,190 --> 00:42:38,670
machine. 
In fact you can run like many of

666
00:42:38,670 --> 00:42:44,110
these validators on A1 machine. 
Now I I think the design 

667
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:48,120
originally was was as such to 
like you know help solo staking 

668
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,280
happen make it a little bit more
difficult for concentration to 

669
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,840
happen. 
You know as we've seen in 

670
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,560
delegated proof of Stake these 
constraints don't necessarily 

671
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,920
exist and so it's it's much 
easier for power laws to 

672
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:06,520
actually instantiate right. 
So design decisions made the at 

673
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,320
a time in the past for reasons 
and arguably the right reasons 

674
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,920
right or at least the right 
reasons for for Ethereum. 

675
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,000
Now the the downside to that is 
that when you have a lot of 

676
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,200
interest in in staking, you have
people wanting to participate, 

677
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:30,400
you have increasingly more 
validators joining the network 

678
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,200
these these digital instances of
consensus participants, which 

679
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,760
means that you have a lot more 
data that the network needs to 

680
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,320
handle. 
There's, you know, data that's 

681
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,440
being exchanged in the P to P 
layer of the network, which is, 

682
00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:47,990
you know, all those validators 
talking to one another and 

683
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:50,190
saying, I saw this, I saw this, 
I saw this, I saw this, 

684
00:43:50,190 --> 00:43:52,390
everybody saw something. 
And then there's like another 

685
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:57,070
consensus actor that's not like 
really explicit on chain that 

686
00:43:57,070 --> 00:44:00,710
takes all of what did everybody 
see, OK, let's put it together. 

687
00:44:00,710 --> 00:44:01,750
Like what? 
What is, what is? 

688
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:05,190
Reality in reality tends to be 
what most people saw. 

689
00:44:05,870 --> 00:44:10,030
But now you have like so much 
more of these messages being 

690
00:44:10,030 --> 00:44:13,710
exchanged really like it. 
It it looks like the the people 

691
00:44:13,710 --> 00:44:19,050
that were on the you know the 
withdrawals are are are bullish 

692
00:44:20,290 --> 00:44:23,770
and sort of an enabler rather 
than a Oh my God like all the 

693
00:44:23,770 --> 00:44:27,050
steak is going to flee the 
Beacon chain people were we're 

694
00:44:27,050 --> 00:44:29,450
on the right side of history. 
So we we basically seen like a 

695
00:44:29,450 --> 00:44:35,490
50% increase in active stake in 
the last six months or maybe 

696
00:44:35,490 --> 00:44:38,290
less. 
It's April now it's recording at

697
00:44:38,290 --> 00:44:42,960
the end of of of September. 
So I think at when withdrawals 

698
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:49,280
came that that upgrade came to 
the fore, it was 500,000 active 

699
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,920
validators. 
Now we are at 800,000, right, 

700
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,160
and we're talking about 300,000 
extra validators. 

701
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,480
There's more than 50% of what 
were active back then that 

702
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,320
joined the network in the last 
six months. 

703
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,280
It took the network 2 1/2 years 
to get to 500. 

704
00:45:08,850 --> 00:45:12,130
So if you're like, I mean that's
a concerning kind of trend, 

705
00:45:12,130 --> 00:45:13,810
right? 
Like it could concerning from 

706
00:45:14,170 --> 00:45:18,130
like a network load perspective 
because then you see kind of 

707
00:45:18,130 --> 00:45:21,170
like a straight line, but then 
you see that line accelerate and

708
00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:25,610
the curvature change that sort 
of fits in an exponential curve.

709
00:45:26,250 --> 00:45:31,970
That's concerning because then 
there might be like an undo load

710
00:45:31,970 --> 00:45:36,290
for the network to process, 
which means that the network is 

711
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:40,770
going to underperform because 
it's not set up to actually 

712
00:45:40,770 --> 00:45:43,090
handle this type of load of 
messages. 

713
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:47,890
Then a bunch of like useless 
effectively, or let's not call 

714
00:45:47,890 --> 00:45:54,370
it useless, But the marginal 
value that this extra message I 

715
00:45:54,370 --> 00:46:00,050
saw this brings is tiny. 
The more of you know, the more 

716
00:46:00,050 --> 00:46:02,410
of these messages you actually 
have. 

717
00:46:03,490 --> 00:46:10,350
So in order to basically prevent
the network from experiencing 

718
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:15,190
hard times in terms of 
infrastructure and networking 

719
00:46:15,390 --> 00:46:19,150
and state bloat and and and all 
of these things, a decision was 

720
00:46:19,150 --> 00:46:27,150
made to actually cap the 
validator activation limit to 8 

721
00:46:27,150 --> 00:46:32,470
validators per ebook, which I 
think was the number that the 

722
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:37,190
network was at before 
withdrawals activated. 

723
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:39,710
It was seven or eight. 
I don't remember which one was 

724
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:44,790
it was exactly. 
I think right now that number 

725
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:49,110
has gone up to 11 and basically 
the theorem works in a way that 

726
00:46:50,110 --> 00:46:54,790
creates like a bottleneck on the
way in and on the way out. 

727
00:46:54,790 --> 00:46:59,070
The same rules that apply to the
activation queue roughly apply 

728
00:46:59,310 --> 00:47:01,510
one to one to the exit queue as 
well. 

729
00:47:01,830 --> 00:47:07,110
But basically the bandwidth 
scales together with with 

730
00:47:07,110 --> 00:47:10,150
demand. 
That bottleneck becomes wider 

731
00:47:11,110 --> 00:47:17,750
and and relaxes as more demand 
sort of comes to the the door 

732
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:23,270
effectively. 
And that bottleneck exists to 

733
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:28,230
also manage part of that whole 
data clutter and so on, but also

734
00:47:28,230 --> 00:47:34,550
to control stake in terms of it 
leaving as well, right. 

735
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:38,430
And suddenly the theory not only
losing like a bunch of useful 

736
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:41,230
information or maybe not so 
useful information in terms of 

737
00:47:41,230 --> 00:47:43,470
consensus in the will function 
of the chain, but also like a 

738
00:47:43,470 --> 00:47:45,430
lot of security in terms of 
stake. 

739
00:47:45,830 --> 00:47:54,230
So this EIP as I understand is a
sort of short term solution to 

740
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:59,310
actually give the network some 
breathing room so that a more 

741
00:47:59,310 --> 00:48:02,630
permanent decision can actually 
be made as to, OK, well we have 

742
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:06,400
this real issue, you know, too 
many attestations, too much load

743
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,480
on the P2P network, a bunch of 
like redundant information that 

744
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,480
just like bloats the the state 
of the chain, what do we do 

745
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,880
about it. 
And so there are again like as 

746
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,400
a, as a person that's trying to 
be neutral and like look at look

747
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,520
at just the facts like I don't 
necessarily have like as the 

748
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,960
strong view on whether this is 
good or or bad. 

749
00:48:28,740 --> 00:48:31,580
I can see like arguments on on 
both sides, right. 

750
00:48:31,580 --> 00:48:34,700
And then the argument on on the 
pro side is like, well, let's 

751
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:38,940
buy ourselves some time with 
his, you know, not so intrusive 

752
00:48:38,980 --> 00:48:42,100
change to the protocol, roll 
back to like a few months ago, 

753
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:44,740
the state of of the queue two 
months ago. 

754
00:48:44,740 --> 00:48:49,620
And and allow steak to trickle 
in more slowly so that we can 

755
00:48:50,020 --> 00:48:53,180
buy some time to figure out what
we're going to do eventually. 

756
00:48:53,660 --> 00:48:58,100
But then on the other end, this 
creates, at least when you're 

757
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:01,180
looking at the two states, 
right, like you know, 11 

758
00:49:01,940 --> 00:49:06,260
validators per epoch versus 8 
validators per epoch, 2 states 

759
00:49:06,260 --> 00:49:08,100
of the world moving from one to 
the other. 

760
00:49:08,620 --> 00:49:14,900
You are disproportionately with 
that move favoring the status 

761
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:21,100
quo such that if, for example, 
there was a strong needs or 

762
00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:27,380
willingness of existing stake to
be reallocated or new stake that

763
00:49:27,380 --> 00:49:33,460
on boards to go to places that 
are not dominant in terms of 

764
00:49:33,460 --> 00:49:37,940
their representation of stake in
in in the beacon chain. 

765
00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:42,780
Now they have like less of the 
window for them to actually kind

766
00:49:42,780 --> 00:49:48,780
of catch up, if you will is 
narrower, which effectively buys

767
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:53,790
time for whoever is in the lead.
I don't know if there is like 

768
00:49:54,790 --> 00:50:00,150
value in in in really kind of 
diving a lot deeper into that or

769
00:50:00,150 --> 00:50:03,990
really ruminating on it on it 
that much because it's it's all 

770
00:50:03,990 --> 00:50:06,750
very subjective. 
It's all in the eye of the the 

771
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:10,310
the beholder. 
But the the problem is, is is 

772
00:50:10,310 --> 00:50:13,870
still like existent right, like 
from a network perspective, from

773
00:50:14,070 --> 00:50:16,990
like a well functioning network 
health perspective, like that's 

774
00:50:16,990 --> 00:50:20,230
a problem that we're going to 
have to solve eventually, right.

775
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:23,150
And there's. 
It rhymes well with like another

776
00:50:23,150 --> 00:50:26,790
proposal, which is like, Okay, 
let's aggregate the state. 

777
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:32,950
Why do we need to have 32 E per 
validator when we can just 

778
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:37,590
collapse that, then do it, I 
don't know, 20 * 50 * 100 times 

779
00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:43,590
more and just allow validators 
and validator operators that 

780
00:50:43,590 --> 00:50:45,350
option. 
Don't make it mandatory, keep 

781
00:50:45,350 --> 00:50:49,190
the minimum at 32. 
But then you can add those 32 

782
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:52,730
increments instead of running 
various instances, having many 

783
00:50:52,730 --> 00:50:56,450
of these digital agents of 
consensus that send all these 

784
00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:59,050
messages, suddenly instead of 
100 messages you could just have

785
00:50:59,050 --> 00:51:01,810
1:00. 
But that also comes with like a 

786
00:51:01,810 --> 00:51:06,570
whole world of of trade-offs and
like largely like like all of 

787
00:51:06,570 --> 00:51:10,250
these things are ends up being 
like a a political thing among 

788
00:51:10,370 --> 00:51:13,210
among other things, right. 
Which is you know, people have 

789
00:51:13,210 --> 00:51:16,680
made design decisions. 
People have built technology and

790
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,800
infrastructure is actually 
matters the state of the network

791
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,920
as it is today, which might or 
might not be a competitive 

792
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,000
advantage. 
So I've made all of this effort 

793
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,080
and build that that advantage 
and build all these these 

794
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,280
capabilities and now maybe they 
will be deemed completely 

795
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,480
redundant, right. 
Or I will need to like retool a 

796
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,680
bunch of the things as I've as, 
as I've worked with them. 

797
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,840
There's also like very credible,
you know, arguments in terms 

798
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,800
okay you. 
How do we handle slashings? 

799
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,620
Does the penalty sort of 
increase proportionately which 

800
00:51:47,620 --> 00:51:52,180
means that well, I might fuck up
the same way, excuse my my 

801
00:51:52,180 --> 00:51:57,460
language, but I might fail in 
the same way that I do today. 

802
00:51:57,460 --> 00:52:01,900
But instead what is at stake and
the slashing penalty today is 

803
00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:04,740
1/8. 
What's at stake is much larger 

804
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:08,660
whereas now for example like a 
correlated failure will be 

805
00:52:08,660 --> 00:52:11,340
staggered and it will be 1 
validator after another after 

806
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:14,930
another which basically buys you
time to actually address the 

807
00:52:14,930 --> 00:52:18,090
issue before it kind of like 
causes contagion in like that 

808
00:52:18,090 --> 00:52:21,410
one box or that one cluster of 
boxes that is running like all 

809
00:52:21,410 --> 00:52:28,370
of these validators and so on. 
So you know real issues that 

810
00:52:28,370 --> 00:52:33,930
that don't really have clear cut
answers and that's both kind of 

811
00:52:34,050 --> 00:52:38,530
you know the the beauty of it 
and it it's also sometimes what 

812
00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:42,990
what you know slows progress 
down right. 

813
00:52:42,990 --> 00:52:45,790
And it's again, it's a world of 
It's a world of trade-offs. 

814
00:52:46,670 --> 00:52:48,310
Yeah, definitely. 
Like thanks so much for 

815
00:52:48,550 --> 00:52:51,750
elaborating like this on it. 
I do think it's very interesting

816
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:55,830
how you know these dynamics that
you mentioned are like sort of 

817
00:52:56,750 --> 00:53:00,710
like one-on-one hand like 
favoring in a way the power laws

818
00:53:00,710 --> 00:53:06,230
by like sort of limiting how 
many new can enter and that's 

819
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:08,870
like sort of a result of this 
design choice to. 

820
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:11,820
That actually tries to kind of 
achieve the opposite, right, by 

821
00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:13,780
like helping solar stakers to 
stay. 

822
00:53:13,780 --> 00:53:16,180
So it's a really interesting 
trade off space. 

823
00:53:16,180 --> 00:53:20,180
And I do think maybe the 
solution could also be right 

824
00:53:20,180 --> 00:53:22,500
like because of like we're 
saying it's a temporary 

825
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:24,300
solution. 
So like something needs to 

826
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:27,380
change and it seems like or from
my perspective, one of the only 

827
00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:31,860
things I guess that I have seen 
is that sort of increasing that 

828
00:53:31,860 --> 00:53:34,700
limits or aggregating the 
validators in some sense. 

829
00:53:35,460 --> 00:53:37,620
So I do think what's also 
interesting is that maybe. 

830
00:53:38,660 --> 00:53:41,340
You can do that. 
But then also you have like 

831
00:53:41,340 --> 00:53:46,500
solutions like DVT that maybe 
like can still maintain like the

832
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:51,140
ability for solar sakers to sort
of participate even if they 

833
00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:54,820
don't have because already 32 E 
like you said it's already maybe

834
00:53:54,820 --> 00:53:58,700
too much for many these days. 
And actually so if it's even 

835
00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:01,540
higher, I guess maybe DVT can be
the layer that like sort of 

836
00:54:01,540 --> 00:54:04,300
solves that and it wouldn't like
blow the Ethereum state so much.

837
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:07,420
But yeah, very interesting 
field. 

838
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:10,630
And yeah, I guess also cool to 
have like all these teams like 

839
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:14,990
working on different arts of it 
and you, you sort of, you know, 

840
00:54:15,070 --> 00:54:17,270
making it all transparent and 
like contextualizing it. 

841
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:19,470
I think that's like a very cool 
spot that you're in. 

842
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:26,510
We're trying our our hardest but
just to harp on what you where 

843
00:54:26,510 --> 00:54:29,150
you left off for for for a 
little while longer. 

844
00:54:29,150 --> 00:54:34,270
Like the the flip side of having
all of those teams work together

845
00:54:34,610 --> 00:54:37,970
in in like loosely or less 
loosely connected ways. 

846
00:54:37,970 --> 00:54:43,170
And no sort of central planner 
that just explicitly says like 

847
00:54:43,170 --> 00:54:45,690
you know, this is what should be
done and it all kind of like 

848
00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:51,010
basically gets done in, you know
a network of of of influence 

849
00:54:52,450 --> 00:54:58,210
effectively is that you have the
bloat situation, right or you 

850
00:54:58,210 --> 00:55:00,690
keep, you just keep adding 
features to something because 

851
00:55:00,890 --> 00:55:03,610
that's sort of the natural 
impulse to do. 

852
00:55:03,610 --> 00:55:07,010
But then you have like like a 
like a strong contingent of like

853
00:55:07,010 --> 00:55:10,650
client developers and so on 
actually advocating for a clean 

854
00:55:10,650 --> 00:55:13,290
up fork. 
Let's not do like all the sort 

855
00:55:13,290 --> 00:55:16,170
of improvement stuff and add 
this and then you know, DVT 

856
00:55:16,170 --> 00:55:19,090
comes into the picture and then 
other components come into the 

857
00:55:19,090 --> 00:55:22,410
picture and then complexity just
like piles up because again 

858
00:55:22,530 --> 00:55:25,650
that's the natural impulse of 
like humans to build features 

859
00:55:26,770 --> 00:55:29,090
and not not to like actually 
reduce features. 

860
00:55:29,090 --> 00:55:32,750
Reducing features is is painful.
It means that you have to like 

861
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:35,470
roll back your decision that you
made earlier. 

862
00:55:35,470 --> 00:55:37,790
It means that you have to like 
accept the mistake, admit 

863
00:55:37,790 --> 00:55:40,270
defeat. 
And also it's it's it's 

864
00:55:40,550 --> 00:55:43,790
generally more more painful do 
that but very necessary. 

865
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:47,390
So it's just so fascinating, 
right? 

866
00:55:47,390 --> 00:55:51,350
Just seeing, seeing humans just 
work together and like implicit 

867
00:55:51,350 --> 00:55:56,550
ways at this level of of of 
scale, it's just really 

868
00:55:56,550 --> 00:55:59,550
fascinating. 
Yeah, and I guess like one spicy

869
00:56:00,150 --> 00:56:04,470
topic we had there. 
Before we started recording, I 

870
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:07,110
guess he's also like, yeah, how 
are these decisions then made in

871
00:56:07,110 --> 00:56:11,150
the end, you know, like Ethereum
is known to be like sort of a 

872
00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:15,350
advocate against or like I guess
the Ethereum community at large 

873
00:56:15,350 --> 00:56:17,510
and maybe who even is that 
right? 

874
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:19,990
But like I guess also be tall 
against some of the core early 

875
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:23,870
people sort of against this sort
of notion of Unchained 

876
00:56:23,870 --> 00:56:25,510
governance like making the 
tokens decide. 

877
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:28,990
But then we can definitely see 
in this case, for example, that.

878
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:32,390
These choices are made by some 
of the core developers or in 

879
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:34,310
some way right. 
The decisions are made but 

880
00:56:34,310 --> 00:56:39,070
they're potentially not like 
taking into account the people 

881
00:56:39,470 --> 00:56:43,790
that this change is impacting 
right in a way that maybe other 

882
00:56:43,790 --> 00:56:47,230
systems would and I think that's
that's also very interesting now

883
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:50,390
to see how these things play 
out. 

884
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:53,190
As you know many have critiqued 
the on chain governance, but 

885
00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:57,670
actually like here, I feel like 
it's a very good example of. 

886
00:56:58,550 --> 00:57:03,870
Why Maybe this other path isn't 
like working as well either 

887
00:57:03,870 --> 00:57:04,710
right. 
So you. 

888
00:57:05,070 --> 00:57:07,270
Yeah. 
I I guess if you want to comment

889
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:10,670
on that like what how how are 
you thinking about this when 

890
00:57:10,670 --> 00:57:13,990
that chief comment there are no 
good options we're we're we live

891
00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:17,510
in a world of like bad options 
when it comes to this. 

892
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:19,230
Right. 
Like it's look at governance 

893
00:57:19,230 --> 00:57:21,670
like outside of of chains or 
whatnot. 

894
00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:24,830
It's not like things are rosy 
there or that like we've solved 

895
00:57:24,830 --> 00:57:27,830
that problem as like a the human
civilization. 

896
00:57:27,830 --> 00:57:30,630
So we we just have to live with 
like bad options And it's also 

897
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:33,710
like there's precedent of 1. 
Chain governance actually like 

898
00:57:34,310 --> 00:57:38,830
not being a solution like there 
was a a Tasos upgrade I think 

899
00:57:38,830 --> 00:57:42,110
was there 6th or 7th upgrade 
maybe like already two years 

900
00:57:42,110 --> 00:57:46,190
back there was like a big debate
about an escape hatch feature 

901
00:57:46,190 --> 00:57:49,390
and then the upgrade wouldn't 
like actually go through the 

902
00:57:49,390 --> 00:57:54,200
very political process with 
Ethereum as as as you mentioned 

903
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,040
earlier there is no like 
explicit on chain governance and

904
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,920
I don't even know that like 
explicit on chain governance is 

905
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,960
is the answer. 
So governance happens in a in a 

906
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:05,240
rough way. 
Right. 

907
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,640
The term community calls that 
rough consensus where you know 

908
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,360
ecosystem participants call it 
the client teams the theorem 

909
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,320
foundation the operators and so 
on. 

910
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,080
They're all in like you know, 
three or four different forms, 

911
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,760
not including sort of all the 
all the private chats and and 

912
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,200
and IRL places and so on. 
But it's, you know, I guess it's

913
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,600
ETH research, it's like a couple
other forums, it's like a couple

914
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:33,000
discords and so on. 
They discuss those issues at 

915
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,520
large, right, like upgrade 
issues, what are we doing, how 

916
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,280
are we moving forward and so on.
What ultimately happens is that 

917
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,760
if the operators don't decide to
upgrade the software, even if 

918
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,440
like all the client developers 
for example agree and like the 

919
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,760
protocol researchers and 
protocol developers agree to 

920
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,920
like push the change forward. 
If the operators don't upgrade 

921
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,600
their nodes to the new version, 
then the network doesn't 

922
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:02,520
upgrade, right? 
What is like a little bit under 

923
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:07,120
talked about perhaps and also 
maybe a little bit spicy is that

924
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,640
these operators have a lot of 
stake on the line, right? 

925
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,720
Like they have their actual 
stake. 

926
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:16,040
They have businesses that 
they've built on top of that. 

927
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,910
They're they're effectively like
not not custodians, but they're 

928
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:23,430
agents of the stake of others, 
right. 

929
00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:27,110
So there is like really like a 
lot on the line for them. 

930
00:59:27,390 --> 00:59:31,470
And so ultimately if they're if 
they, if they did have like even

931
00:59:31,470 --> 00:59:33,910
as a solo staker, if you did 
have like a deeply rooted belief

932
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:38,150
about the specific feature which
you know, even saying it that 

933
00:59:38,150 --> 00:59:40,790
way, it sounds like a little bit
ridiculous, but you know, so be 

934
00:59:40,790 --> 00:59:42,190
it. 
It's like if if this, if this 

935
00:59:42,190 --> 00:59:44,870
infrastructure is as important 
as we all think it is and as 

936
00:59:44,870 --> 00:59:49,010
important as as it will be like 
being sort of religiously 

937
00:59:49,010 --> 00:59:53,330
militant about features actually
make some sense. 

938
00:59:54,450 --> 00:59:58,610
So the point is that even if you
were like vehemently against 

939
00:59:59,970 --> 01:00:06,970
your your, your stake is at risk
if you're in the, you know, if 

940
01:00:06,970 --> 01:00:09,250
you're in the less 
representative side. 

941
01:00:09,250 --> 01:00:12,650
So you know what happens like if
you follow right, right, right, 

942
01:00:12,650 --> 01:00:14,130
right. 
You know the other chain, the 

943
01:00:14,130 --> 01:00:17,940
theorem classic or what? 
For state classic like you know 

944
01:00:17,940 --> 01:00:21,980
what happens to like your your 
your your value at risk. 

945
01:00:22,220 --> 01:00:29,100
So you know again really dense 
not only technical like in fact 

946
01:00:29,100 --> 01:00:36,340
far far from technical issues 
that have no no clear answers. 

947
01:00:36,340 --> 01:00:41,460
But I I will say that you know 
if theorem has gone pretty far 

948
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:48,770
further than most if not all 
with that model of of governance

949
01:00:49,970 --> 01:00:53,810
that it's that it's got. 
So you you have to acknowledge 

950
01:00:54,090 --> 01:00:56,730
you know success. 
When, when, when you see it. 

951
01:00:58,130 --> 01:00:59,410
Right, right, right. 
Yeah, definitely. 

952
01:00:59,410 --> 01:01:01,770
I yeah, that's it's a super 
interesting discussion. 

953
01:01:01,770 --> 01:01:04,690
Like you said, it's far from 
technical and it's something 

954
01:01:04,690 --> 01:01:08,490
that we haven't solved as as 
civilizations anywhere really. 

955
01:01:08,690 --> 01:01:11,970
I do think, you know, yeah, you 
have that extreme option like 

956
01:01:11,970 --> 01:01:14,690
you mentioned before King, but 
obviously that's. 

957
01:01:15,460 --> 01:01:21,460
Yeah, like not really a tool for
like daytoday operating like 

958
01:01:21,460 --> 01:01:24,100
this sort of network, right. 
It's like in a very rare 

959
01:01:24,100 --> 01:01:26,900
situation maybe that will you 
will like sort of play that 

960
01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:30,900
card. 
But I guess you know some sort 

961
01:01:30,900 --> 01:01:33,620
of formalization of this 
governance to me at least feels 

962
01:01:33,620 --> 01:01:38,420
like is potentially like a 
direction that is maybe other 

963
01:01:38,420 --> 01:01:41,700
explored in Ethereum also I I do
think yeah, in other places 

964
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:44,620
maybe it was formalized too 
early and like not well enough 

965
01:01:44,620 --> 01:01:48,150
but. 
I guess being some more effort 

966
01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:50,830
there. 
I feel like this is a big area 

967
01:01:52,430 --> 01:01:57,950
that yeah, one needs to like 
talk about more or like build or

968
01:01:57,950 --> 01:01:59,790
like. 
Discuss what, what, what could 

969
01:01:59,790 --> 01:02:02,670
be done. 
But yeah, so thanks for this 

970
01:02:02,670 --> 01:02:04,830
like sort of expedition into 
that direction. 

971
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:06,790
I guess we're already talking 
quite a bit. 

972
01:02:06,790 --> 01:02:10,030
So wanted to end it on the notes
about rated again. 

973
01:02:10,070 --> 01:02:11,870
So we've been talking a lot 
about Ethereum. 

974
01:02:11,870 --> 01:02:14,870
Obviously you guys are very 
focused on on Ethereum. 

975
01:02:15,390 --> 01:02:18,870
But the broader vision right, is
very reputation for machines. 

976
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:22,070
So there's like obviously other 
machines aside from Ethereum 

977
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:27,270
validators. 
What's your yeah sort of what's 

978
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:30,950
the future for rated? 
How are you thinking about what 

979
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:33,230
you're building and how you're 
expanding maybe from Ethereum or

980
01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:36,230
are you even doing that? 
Layer two is who knows if you 

981
01:02:37,110 --> 01:02:40,390
have agreed to just yeah. 
Talk to us a little bit about 

982
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:43,990
that and then we can wrap up 
also. 

983
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,400
So we are as we've discussed 
present on a theorem today. 

984
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,200
This is where we we started 
from. 

985
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,400
But the vision is, is is much 
larger than that. 

986
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,240
It's potentially like as large 
as the theorem can and will get 

987
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,520
and and and even bigger. 
So it just coming from from the 

988
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,440
background that I did and then 
having worked with people across

989
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,920
many different networks and 
having kind of like interface 

990
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:13,160
with these these networks. 
I I see value in like plurality 

991
01:03:13,740 --> 01:03:16,020
right. 
And I I do see a future of of 

992
01:03:16,020 --> 01:03:18,900
multiple different networks that
have different core value 

993
01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:20,980
propositions of different layer 
twos. 

994
01:03:20,980 --> 01:03:27,180
And I'm you know multi chain, 
multi network Maxi. 

995
01:03:27,180 --> 01:03:31,020
I suppose although this might be
like a somewhat contrarian of 

996
01:03:31,020 --> 01:03:34,700
you to have at the time that 
we're we're recording because 

997
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:38,300
it's like the the deep of the 
deep in in the bear market and 

998
01:03:38,340 --> 01:03:41,900
and you know it's it's hard 
sometimes to see kind of like 

999
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:43,460
the the light at the end of the 
tunnel. 

1000
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,960
So what what we're planning to 
do in in the coming quarters is 

1001
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,520
actually expand to multiple 
proof of stake networks, the 

1002
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,760
Solanas of the world, the cosmos
of the world, the polygons of 

1003
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,960
the world and thereafter to 
expand to actually covering 

1004
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,680
multiple agent sets. 
So not only validators, but 

1005
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:11,290
there are many node types that 
actually have very similar 

1006
01:04:11,290 --> 01:04:13,410
properties. 
They participate in networks. 

1007
01:04:13,410 --> 01:04:17,690
They produce useful work. 
They earn rewards or a fee 

1008
01:04:17,690 --> 01:04:19,570
stream. 
They participate in the fishing 

1009
01:04:19,570 --> 01:04:22,650
for the useful work that they 
produce. 

1010
01:04:23,010 --> 01:04:27,890
They are agents in networks, and
they're entrusted with sort of 

1011
01:04:27,890 --> 01:04:31,250
missions. 
And they might be fulfilling 

1012
01:04:31,250 --> 01:04:35,050
their missions successfully. 
Not so successfully, not at all.

1013
01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:39,210
They might be inflicting 
positive externalities in the 

1014
01:04:39,210 --> 01:04:42,410
context of their networks or 
negative externalities by taking

1015
01:04:42,410 --> 01:04:47,970
and do risk and and and so on. 
So you know I think by just 

1016
01:04:48,170 --> 01:04:52,050
doing what we're doing in 
multiple networks and and and 

1017
01:04:52,050 --> 01:04:55,250
going into all these different 
environments, not only can we 

1018
01:04:55,250 --> 01:04:59,210
help these networks just be 
better achieve their their goals

1019
01:04:59,210 --> 01:05:01,730
better. 
I like one more like little 

1020
01:05:01,730 --> 01:05:05,510
little anecdotes. 
I ran the numbers at some point 

1021
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:08,350
and I looked at the historical 
effectiveness of the Ethereum 

1022
01:05:08,350 --> 01:05:11,230
network on the whole and it 
turns out that apart from the 

1023
01:05:11,230 --> 01:05:16,750
merge which was a very volatile 
month, effectively the network 

1024
01:05:16,750 --> 01:05:22,270
hasn't had a lower effectiveness
month than the month that we 

1025
01:05:22,270 --> 01:05:25,330
launched. 
Now again I'm not like the 

1026
01:05:25,570 --> 01:05:30,090
saying we are wholeheartedly and
and and and uniquely responsible

1027
01:05:30,090 --> 01:05:32,850
for that outcome. 
But I do think that we've had a 

1028
01:05:32,850 --> 01:05:37,450
small part to play right in by 
contextualizing by surfacing 

1029
01:05:37,450 --> 01:05:41,250
like information about 
performance transparently and 

1030
01:05:41,290 --> 01:05:45,170
and and in an easy to access and
and and understand way. 

1031
01:05:45,170 --> 01:05:47,770
So I I do think that we, you 
know, there's benefits in 

1032
01:05:48,210 --> 01:05:51,850
actually having that unified 
view, common abstractions in 

1033
01:05:51,850 --> 01:05:53,890
terms of you know what is 
performance, what is rewards, 

1034
01:05:53,890 --> 01:05:56,090
what is risk. 
That are virtues for for these 

1035
01:05:56,090 --> 01:05:58,850
networks there's a lot of work 
to do. 

1036
01:06:00,090 --> 01:06:03,290
There's a lot of scope. 
There's a lot of complexity. 

1037
01:06:03,370 --> 01:06:08,690
It's a big infrastructure build.
And then you know while your 

1038
01:06:08,690 --> 01:06:13,210
ability of adding the marginal 
network might improve over time 

1039
01:06:13,210 --> 01:06:14,890
and the cost of doing that 
drops. 

1040
01:06:15,170 --> 01:06:17,970
Then there's there's another 
like more insidious curve that 

1041
01:06:17,970 --> 01:06:22,150
you don't get to actually 
realize until after some time 

1042
01:06:22,150 --> 01:06:25,910
which is like maintenance and 
and and cost and in scope right.

1043
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:29,430
So these are all very 
challenging things and also 

1044
01:06:29,710 --> 01:06:33,150
there's there's another 
challenge in that there might be

1045
01:06:33,150 --> 01:06:36,510
and I think there are more 
networks and more agent sets 

1046
01:06:36,510 --> 01:06:41,710
than 01 company might be able to
cover, right. 

1047
01:06:41,710 --> 01:06:44,790
And then you end up being in a 
in a situation where you know 

1048
01:06:44,790 --> 01:06:47,910
you're you as the as the company
or the organization or whatever 

1049
01:06:47,910 --> 01:06:51,410
you're in in that boat. 
And then you know there's three 

1050
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:55,130
holes and then there's a 4th 
hole and there's a 5th hole. 

1051
01:06:55,530 --> 01:06:57,930
And then you have like to cover 
the 5th hole, you have to just. 

1052
01:06:58,490 --> 01:07:00,250
Open a twister, open another 
one, right. 

1053
01:07:00,250 --> 01:07:03,930
Just move your hand from like 1 
to the other and then exactly 

1054
01:07:05,570 --> 01:07:09,330
it's the it's it's the whack A 
mole analogy that we, we we 

1055
01:07:09,330 --> 01:07:11,370
talked about before before the 
recording. 

1056
01:07:11,370 --> 01:07:13,970
So that's going to be a 
challenge. 

1057
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,320
Figuring out how to solve for 
that is going to be a challenge,

1058
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,760
but it's a challenge on super, 
super excited to be to be taking

1059
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,640
on because because you know we 
see the positive impact of of of

1060
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,400
the work that we're doing and 
and that is sort of the the 

1061
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:35,560
biggest rewards of of of all if 
you will. 

1062
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:40,040
So just be able to have like a 
like a small contribution to 

1063
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:44,000
things moving forward to things 
improving to arming people with 

1064
01:07:44,430 --> 01:07:47,190
the right of an arming might be 
like the the wrong word. 

1065
01:07:47,190 --> 01:07:50,990
But but giving people the 
ability to access information 

1066
01:07:50,990 --> 01:07:54,950
and empower them to make good 
decisions for whatever their 

1067
01:07:54,950 --> 01:08:01,590
objective function is is 
something I can, you know get 

1068
01:08:01,590 --> 01:08:05,910
behind and continue doing for a 
very long time. 

1069
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:09,070
So I'm excited. 
I'm excited to to be on the path

1070
01:08:09,350 --> 01:08:12,310
that that we're on and I'm 
excited to to explore where it 

1071
01:08:12,310 --> 01:08:13,950
takes us. 
Awesome. 

1072
01:08:13,950 --> 01:08:15,190
Yeah. 
Thank you so much that I asked 

1073
01:08:15,190 --> 01:08:18,910
for the inspiring conversation. 
You'll die on this hill. 

1074
01:08:19,069 --> 01:08:23,350
We we get that after this you 
will die on this. 

1075
01:08:23,350 --> 01:08:26,149
I will die on this hill. 
Right. 

1076
01:08:27,109 --> 01:08:28,910
Yeah, I mean, appreciate it, 
Felix. 

1077
01:08:28,990 --> 01:08:30,710
Again, yeah, thanks so much for 
coming on Epicenter. 

1078
01:08:30,710 --> 01:08:34,270
I hope this yeah, very very 
interesting episode about the 

1079
01:08:34,270 --> 01:08:38,069
theory about infrastructure and 
these will add to the show notes

1080
01:08:38,069 --> 01:08:40,830
like a bunch of the things that 
were mentioned. 

1081
01:08:41,380 --> 01:08:43,779
In this episode. 
So yeah, our listeners can find 

1082
01:08:43,779 --> 01:08:46,899
out more there. 
And yeah, hope to see you soon. 

1083
01:08:48,420 --> 01:08:50,740
Greatly appreciated. 
Thank you so much for having me.

1084
01:08:50,899 --> 01:08:55,859
Huge, huge fan. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1085
01:08:55,859 --> 01:08:58,260
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1086
01:08:58,260 --> 01:09:00,260
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1087
01:09:00,260 --> 01:09:04,020
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1088
01:09:04,020 --> 01:09:06,700
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1089
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:08,590
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1090
01:09:08,590 --> 01:09:12,069
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1091
01:09:12,069 --> 01:09:14,670
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1092
01:09:14,670 --> 01:09:16,510
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1093
01:09:16,510 --> 01:09:18,950
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1094
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:22,069
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1095
01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:24,790
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1096
01:09:24,790 --> 01:09:26,670
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1097
01:09:26,670 --> 01:09:28,350
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1098
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:31,830
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So thanks so much and we look 

1099
01:09:31,830 --> 01:09:38,270
forward to being back next week.
I want to do it. 

1100
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:40,790
I want to do it. 
I want to.