1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,900 Welcome to these projects in people driving decentralization 2 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:21,600 and that blockchain Revolution. I'm Brian Crane. 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,800 And today, I'm speaking with Dean Tribble. 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,600 He's the CEO of a gorik. Agaric is a proof of stake. 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,100 Blockchain that uses JavaScript. Too kind of enable developers to 6 00:00:32,108 --> 00:00:35,700 build secure smart contract application security. 7 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:39,100 If applications really interesting projects, lots of 8 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:42,600 interesting stuff to talk about and I'm super excited for the 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,500 conversation. But before we go, before we go 10 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:50,100 into all the Gory stuff, so let's go to the sponsors this 11 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:52,700 week. So first of all, we have a swap. 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,600 So Periscope is a DEX, aggregator only theorem. 13 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,700 So basically repairs up. You can just get the best price 14 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:01,800 because they reroute you to. Wherever there is the chat, 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:07,100 fastest and cheapest liquidity, and they just launched 35, which 16 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:12,000 has new contracts, the API, and it's very gasps currently. 17 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:15,900 And they also recently added support for Avalanche polygon, 18 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:21,000 B, SC and Phantom. And yeah, you can also use 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,600 Periscope directly from The Ledger. 20 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:27,600 So, and and in addition to that also becoming a dull. 21 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,800 So if you have two tokens, the PSP. 22 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,600 It opens that's something you can participate in so go check 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,800 it out a swap, the I/O and S, sponsor course one. 24 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:42,900 So course one is running secure violators from lots of different 25 00:01:42,900 --> 00:01:45,500 blockchains. If you're going to participate 26 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:47,800 in the proof safe economy, right? 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,000 Go check out correspond. So you can start earning 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,000 rewards, contribute to network security Force, One securing 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,300 billions and over 25. Decentralized networks, 30 00:01:55,300 --> 00:01:58,700 including Solana Cosmos a theorem and most importantly 31 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:03,200 gork. You're so kind. 32 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:07,500 Yeah, they're also also running right label note. 33 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:10,699 So if you know Unison, tution the interested in having a stake 34 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:15,700 in partner again touch and finally some news there. 35 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:20,900 So, Cole is one. We did a big airdrop and if the 36 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:24,800 airdrop to all the Solana delegator, so if your salon 37 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,400 evaluator, make sure you check out your wallet is airdrop to 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,000 3600. Ders, and if you missed it, 39 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,300 don't worry. It's going to be more coming up 40 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:37,300 in the future. So go ahead over the course. 41 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:42,400 Dot1q check it out. And now we've got, let's get 42 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,000 into our episode. Actually. 43 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,200 This is the second episode we have on the board. 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,000 The first one was, was a few years ago with Dean's co-founder 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,400 Mark and this was kind of like a funny story. 46 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,000 I think how that happened. So I was, I was at one point 47 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,000 like thinking, 'oh, what could, What could Do in terms of 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,400 podcasts. What would make interesting 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,200 podcast? Of course, smart contracts was 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,700 like, you know, like, you know, interesting topic. 51 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:09,600 So I think I'm going to Vicky pedia. 52 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:12,900 I was like, let me try to read about score contract and then 53 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:17,300 there is like a few things referenced and one was like some 54 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:21,600 old paper by this guy Mark Miller and I was like, oh that's 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,600 interesting. And so somehow I found this 56 00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:27,400 email, I emailed him and use a Google at the time. 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,200 He was a researcher at Google. And that's in like if you would 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,200 be interested in coming on the podcast and then he was first. 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,300 He wanted to come and then there was some back and forth. 60 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:42,400 We didn't end up happening, but he did send me some old talk of 61 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:49,000 his from like the 90s and where he was that smart contracts. 62 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:52,800 And then I was just talking to is like, very strange experience 63 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,900 because I felt like this could be basically, I'd like a crypto 64 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:59,200 conference today pretty much the same talks. 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:06,600 And then we did have one as a few years later when he started 66 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:11,300 gorik together with you. And I think some others and so 67 00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:16,100 yeah, and of course Dean right. You also have a very long 68 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:21,600 history going back with with work with Mark and in this and 69 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:28,600 on these kind of problem, so, There's a lot of people they 70 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:34,000 think of crypto as something that started with Bitcoin and 71 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,100 I'm curious like when you think sort of like back to like your 72 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:43,900 earlier work and you're sort of Journey Through This World, what 73 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:47,000 was there back then? Like what were the ideas and the 74 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,700 goals that like, you feel, like, actually this is kind of like a 75 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,400 continuation of that, right? So I first met mark At Xerox 76 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,100 Parc and like 86 1986 and we started working together there 77 00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:05,500 on on how to build large-scale, secure distributed systems and 78 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,900 programming languages for large-scale distributed systems 79 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:09,600 and the differencing programming languages. 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,500 And architectures was. And and, and operating systems 81 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:16,200 was was was, was not a matter. It was sort of a matter of 82 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,900 design and how low you went. But but there were plenty of 83 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:20,300 systems that kind of combined both. 84 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,300 And so a lot of out of those ideas came Mark, wrote the Agora 85 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:28,900 coping systems papers that both drove some of that work and was 86 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:31,300 inspired by it. And the Greco position papers 87 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:35,000 came out in 1988 and they really articulated software agents, 88 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,000 building and participating in markets, but all throughout that 89 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,200 we were thinking about, how do you use, how do you make it? 90 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,600 So you can compose interesting complex systems sophisticated 91 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,700 systems out of underlying pieces. 92 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:50,200 So, you know, object-oriented programming actor in a 93 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,600 programming asynchronous, communication, all that kind of 94 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,600 stuff. And so, you know, that that all 95 00:05:55,700 --> 00:06:00,400 That you know went into then the cypherpunks movement or activity 96 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,400 started. Where we were involved. 97 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,200 I mean it had been go. It was going all throughout the 98 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,900 80s of trying to get our essay safely in the hands of everybody 99 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,200 rather than locked up inside of inside of government security 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,200 agencies and that grew into the overall cypherpunks movement, 101 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,100 and we then built or I ended up working on, you know, as well, 102 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:22,500 Mark them and I were working at Xanadu. 103 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:24,600 I consulted with a company called American information 104 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,400 Exchange. And worked on what was 105 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,700 essentially, the first production, smart contract. 106 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:32,300 And, you know, this is, you know, this is all pre 107 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:36,300 blockchain, but smart contracts, predated smart contracts in its 108 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,500 first production block, smart contract was five years before, 109 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:44,200 vitalik was born and it's really our model. 110 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,600 All along our vision. All along is to get software in 111 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,300 particular, large scale. Distributed systems to help 112 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:54,800 humans, collaborate cooperate, you know, engage in economic 113 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,400 activity engaged. In social activity, you know, 114 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,700 mediated and supported by this network of computers that we 115 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:05,700 were in the midst of building. And so, so smart contract is 116 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:08,600 right software. That's enforcing the terms of a 117 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,600 contract, like Arrangement between third parties and that's 118 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,200 it. No mention a blockchain. 119 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,500 There's no mention of particular Technologies. 120 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:18,400 It's just this pattern of realizing and this was the thing 121 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,300 that that Nick brought to the table. 122 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:23,100 I mean he was thinking about all of these ideas as well and had 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,500 the idea in his head and he put a name. 124 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Name on it. And said, here's the properties 125 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,500 of that and why it's powerful and interesting. 126 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:34,000 And it's the fact that that model enables More Strangers to 127 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,300 cooperate, right? I buy there's this classic story 128 00:07:37,300 --> 00:07:38,900 of the pencil. I think the book is called the 129 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:43,500 pencil where I buy a pencil that involve, the acts of thousands 130 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:46,800 of people, many of whom I might not even like many of whom I 131 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,600 certainly couldn't communicate with because I don't know their 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,600 language and and that's okay. I have managed to cooperate with 133 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,500 thousands of people every time I buy a pencil and that's ^ 134 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:59,100 economies, That's The Power of markets and software and 135 00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:01,500 networks makes that even bigger. And so that's been the driving 136 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,400 dream, smart contracts. You know, we always wanted to 137 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,500 make it easier to make more of those because they enable more 138 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,900 collaboration among more people and more cooperation leads to a 139 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:13,300 more Cooperative world. And that that's something that 140 00:08:13,300 --> 00:08:15,700 that, you know, makes for a safer place to end a happier 141 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:19,600 place for me to live in. I guess it's sort of obvious 142 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,100 question that comes up to me, right? 143 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:25,400 When you hear it is speak because I get probably most 144 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,300 people today in the crypto space. 145 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:32,100 Anything goes smart contract as something that's like enforced 146 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:34,799 by the blockchain, right? So you basically have you know, 147 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:38,100 you have a third party that in the past was maybe some sort of 148 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,000 company. And we say now we have this 149 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,100 third party that's actually like code and it's maintained by all 150 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,700 these different parties. And so it's like, you know, it 151 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:52,100 Can execute this thing and then like now we can have basically 152 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:56,000 exactly what you described. Like if this enforceable, you 153 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,500 know, enforceable agreements. So if you guys didn't have the 154 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:06,300 blockchain part like where it kind of the enforcement of those 155 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:12,000 contracts come from so most smart contracts even possibly. 156 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,200 Now the right on the cusp of inverting, this are run by a 157 00:09:17,208 --> 00:09:19,400 trusted intermediary. Our mediary so smart contract, 158 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,100 eBay is software that enforces the terms of a contract like 159 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:27,200 Arrangement between buyers and sellers where most eBay 160 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,700 transactions happen with no humans involved except the buyer 161 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:33,500 and seller and in some automated cases, not even that, right? 162 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:36,500 But but the money transfers, the who owns? 163 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:38,600 What? When who's responsible for what 164 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,700 dispute resolution much of that happens. 165 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,800 Enforced by eBay with no human intervention. 166 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000 That's a smart contract, which is just no question about it, 167 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,900 you know, so eBay. PayPal venmo Airbnb. 168 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:52,200 Uber Lyft, much of high-frequency trading much of 169 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,000 Amazon. Those are all software in that 170 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,500 case, being run by a trusted intermediary, but enabling 171 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:00,800 cooperation that otherwise simply never would have 172 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:01,700 happened. Right? 173 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:04,100 And that's a huge step forward. And that was a huge value. 174 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:06,700 Add and much of the architecture of smart contracts. 175 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:09,300 We looked at was, how do we make it so that there's more 176 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:12,000 Automation in that but pre blockchain. 177 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,100 There was still always going to be, you know, I've got a machine 178 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:18,900 that's running on my behalf enforcing it's that that I 179 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:22,000 enabled, you know, multiple strangers to participate in your 180 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,400 business does the same thing. Sometimes my contracts do 181 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,200 business with your contracts, you know, but each of those is 182 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,000 being run by host that different subsets of people trust, right? 183 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,700 And what blockchains bring, you know, so and that all existed 184 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:38,100 with a trillion dollar market cap before blockchain ever 185 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,100 entered the picture, right? And then what blockchains bring 186 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,300 is, you know, my gold standard is multiple machines in 187 00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:49,500 different administrative zones, or Restrictions right. 188 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:52,500 Voting to agree on what happened coming to consensus about what 189 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,900 happened, in terms of data choices and computation where 190 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:59,200 the choices might be, you know, Dean bid on an auction. 191 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,100 Now, he tried to cancel his bid. At the same time in the auction 192 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,400 was closing. Only one of those can happen 193 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,600 either Dean got back, his money or he won the auction. 194 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,400 One of the two, we've got the blockchain, can decide what the, 195 00:11:10,408 --> 00:11:13,800 you know, the the smart contract decides what that is. 196 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:15,600 And if it's running on blockchain, that means there. 197 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,400 Isn't anyone with a backdoor to be able to say Say yeah, I want 198 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,500 to make sure it sells, so I'm going to pretend the auction 199 00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:22,000 close before. Dean's message came in. 200 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,100 I'm just gonna, you know, plug my ears and ignore Dean's 201 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:27,300 message to withdraw. But with a blockchain running 202 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,800 software in this multiple environment, you know, this 203 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,900 Motel replicated environment. Now, no one person can 204 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:36,200 compromise the Integrity if they break one machine. 205 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,100 While there's a hundred others. They're all saying, no, no Dean 206 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:41,200 gets his money back. We all agree, and the vote 207 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:42,500 happens. And now we all agree. 208 00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:44,900 The truth that, you know, the truth as determined by that 209 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:46,300 blockchain is Dean gets his money back. 210 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:50,500 Let's move on. So that high integrity execution 211 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:54,600 that blockchains bring is the thing that lets us build smart, 212 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,400 contracts of which there are trillion dollars worth already. 213 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,700 Right? Lets us build smart contracts 214 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:01,500 that don't have a trusted intermediary. 215 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:06,700 The don't have, you know, a company in the background, 216 00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:08,300 that's going on, who you're selling that cheap. 217 00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:10,700 I'm just going to buy it and not actually put it up for auction, 218 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:12,300 right? Or you know, that ticket? 219 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:14,300 That's hard to come by. I've got a friend who really 220 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:15,800 wants in. I'm going to slide it over his 221 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,000 way or, or as, in the case. Case of like companies like 222 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,700 Enron where they slipped in some trades, at the end, you'll sort 223 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:25,300 of the more, you know, they're basically back running or front 224 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:26,400 running whatever you want to call it. 225 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,200 But they were in a position to just do it massively and they 226 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,000 were in a unique position to do it massively. 227 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,900 Whereas no one else could because they were the 228 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:35,000 untrustworthy trusted intermediary. 229 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,200 So blocked. So blockchain, lets us get rid 230 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,600 of that and that enables a whole new world of block chain of 231 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,900 smart contract, businesses out there. 232 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,400 One thing I'm curious about. So you had this previous work 233 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,600 for smart contracts and are they giving you were in this? 234 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:00,100 I would say, I guess larger cypherpunk ecosystem Community 235 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,100 writer. At least like a little like a 236 00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:05,100 weird following of this this whole world. 237 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,400 So when, when did you first like, learn about Bitcoin? 238 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,700 And what was your, what was your initial reaction to that? 239 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,700 Right. So the first is I will say tying 240 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:21,800 it back to my contrast Bitcoin is a smart contract, right? 241 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,100 It implements only one smart contract which is the but it is 242 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,200 software. That's enforcing the terms of a 243 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,700 Arrangement between Pairs that are transferring money and all 244 00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:33,000 that sort of stuff. And then eith adds to that user 245 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,300 provided smart contracts, which was a really cool Advanced as 246 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:38,800 well. So I will admit that part of my 247 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,800 reaction was to be horrified because you know, I didn't I 248 00:13:43,808 --> 00:13:47,700 didn't understand. The magic of the the, the 249 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,000 Satoshi consensus mechanism, but the horror of the reason I was 250 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:57,100 horrified is is twofold because people did not actually 251 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,800 understand what Bitcoin was doing for them. 252 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:04,700 They were making claims about Bitcoin that simply were bogus, 253 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,100 right, you know, and we had worked on, we talked to Cipher 254 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:08,600 cash, we'd worked on. Lots of. 255 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,000 How do we do digital currency in a, in a distributed medium and 256 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,100 all this sort of stuff and people. 257 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,100 Had this model of Bitcoin as high-frequency transactions that 258 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:21,800 are all Anonymous, you know, and private, and all that sort of 259 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,600 things. And and, you know, and the 260 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,300 reliable, right? Because computers could be 261 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,800 reliable. If you are A and B and Bitcoin 262 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,900 was not fast, not Anonymous and not reliable, right? 263 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:38,100 It had none of the properties that you would expect a 264 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:42,100 cryptocurrency to have or that. I and many people that I'm kind 265 00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:43,400 of expected a cryptocurrency to have. 266 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,500 So they simply assumed it. And move forward with excitement 267 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:50,000 about about Bitcoin and I would look a little deeper and went. 268 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,100 Oh my God. Are you serious? 269 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:53,300 Right? And then you look at places like 270 00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:55,600 Mound gox where it's just like Amateur hour at the software 271 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,900 Factory and at the time I was working in fintech and you know, 272 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,800 you take your responsibility to other people's money really, 273 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,500 really seriously because they get really, you know, the 274 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,700 mainstream market gets really unhappy if you look like you're 275 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:12,500 at all playing fast and loose with good reason and and and you 276 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:15,000 know, Mount gox was all about playing fast and loose. 277 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,100 Right. And so that, you know, there are 278 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:19,000 several things about that. That really the cognitive 279 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,900 dissonance deeply turned me off. And I was also in the midst of, 280 00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:26,300 you know, of rolling out, a fin Tech startup at the time where, 281 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,800 you know, it's very conservative, you're trying to 282 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,200 innovate in this space that has, you know, it doesn't just have 283 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,900 bricks-and-mortar had. It has, you know, marble and 284 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:42,000 steel and and so, you know, appearing squeaky-clean was, you 285 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,800 know, occasionally seemed important. 286 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,900 So I kind of steered clear. Of this thing. 287 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,300 That was clearly a disaster waiting to happen. 288 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,300 And indeed the disasters did happen. 289 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,500 It's just the Bitcoin was robust enough to survive them and grow 290 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:57,400 and really show what it's true. Value prop was the thing that I 291 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,400 did not register at the time that I'm sort of deeply excited 292 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,400 about that was brilliant about it. 293 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,200 Is, it gave away to have a vote to have a consensus emerge 294 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,700 entirely permissionless Lee, you know, it's, it's, it's 295 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:13,400 relatively easy to do a vote. You know, I talked about the 296 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,000 gold standard of blockchain is, you got this? 297 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:18,200 Vote or consensus among machines in different in different 298 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,000 regimes. It's relatively easy to do that. 299 00:16:20,008 --> 00:16:22,400 If you can count them, you know, how big your electorate is. 300 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,100 And when I see 68% of that, we're the vote is good. 301 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:27,700 Obviously, you know, Byzantine fault tolerance and all that is 302 00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:30,700 more complicated than that, but man, that changes the game. 303 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,800 And, you know, we got to start with paxos and rafting although 304 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,800 and grow into much more robust algorithms, but, you know, but 305 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,900 Bitcoin brought in the model of you want to consensus, but you 306 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,900 don't know who the voters are, you know, they you won't see 307 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:46,300 them. Them until they come out of the 308 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,500 woodwork. They will come and go all that 309 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,200 sort of stuff. And yet it was robust against 310 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,300 that and that was just absolutely brilliant. 311 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,000 I'm going in to win when came the Roman for you to say like 312 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,400 okay, I actually I want to work in this crypto world and how how 313 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,400 did that kind of Journey happen. So, I've been doing software 314 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,800 security for a long time, you know, in the 80s and building 315 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,800 security stupid system. So that's our stuff and selling 316 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,099 security is kind of thankless, right, you know, because it's 317 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:20,200 like insurance people only want to pay for it after they need it 318 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,000 or when you're trying to innovate. 319 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 And Dirty, it's a real problem. It's twofold. 320 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,500 One is, you know, you here's a new architecture that will solve 321 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,000 a whole bunch of your problems. Great. 322 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,800 Can you make it look just like the old architecture? 323 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,100 Because I don't want to think hard, right? 324 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,900 Or, you know, or anyone who's buying, right? 325 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:40,800 They they they can innovate. And if something goes wrong, 326 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,400 well, it's then their fault for the mistake. 327 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,600 They made for the choice, they made to innovate, or they can do 328 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,800 the same ol, same ol with best practices. 329 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,200 And then, if something goes wrong, oh, they throw themselves 330 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,500 on their sword. They apologized me a call, you 331 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,600 know, we were doing Doing the best, we could will do better 332 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,400 next time and they move on and people take their losses and 333 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,000 insurance pays out and everyone pretends. 334 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,100 That's okay. And the fact that, you know, 335 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,500 every year kind of the amount lost to this model doubles. 336 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,000 Well, you know, basically, the current security models have 337 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,400 proven that they don't work over the course of the last 50 years. 338 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,300 And yet that's the best practices. 339 00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:15,300 And so, Innovation is kind of stifled, you know, because of 340 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,200 the incentives of the buyers. And so I got out of there and I 341 00:18:18,208 --> 00:18:22,000 went and moved into like, let's go to a place where my security 342 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,400 matters because I can offer Better service in terms of 343 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,900 fintech and went into and built a new payment instrument and 344 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,100 that went well, but then came 2017. 345 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,000 We're looking at blockchain and there were all these horrific 346 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,400 losses. So so if came out and are, you 347 00:18:39,408 --> 00:18:42,100 know, lead engineer. Brian Warner was part of one of 348 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,900 the review Security reviews release Authority and pointed 349 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:48,000 out that there was a re-entrance debug which is kind of, you know 350 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,100 concurrency 101, right? And he also pointed out that 351 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:53,100 message, not sender was a bad security model. 352 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,000 It just kind of security, you know, 2001 because that's 353 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,500 Advanced, right? That was the security problem 354 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,900 that flashed continually suffered from her action script, 355 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:02,600 right? You pointed this out, but they 356 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,100 went ahead. Anyway, they rolled out anyway, 357 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:07,300 and then in 2017, you know, there'd be a re-entrance debug 358 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,400 where they lost 30 million dollars in minutes with no 359 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,700 recourse. And these are contracts that are 360 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:12,700 written by experts. And so they fixed the bug and 361 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,300 then lost with another 30 million dollars in minutes with 362 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,100 no recourse, right? And that's one of those things 363 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:21,400 where suddenly innovating and security where you actually make 364 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,700 a difference wouldn't matter. Because it wasn't like I make 365 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:26,100 the decision this year. Next year. 366 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,000 You lose a bunch of money. I've moved on not my problem. 367 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,100 And so there's no accountability for met for having made. 368 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,400 You know, it's like, I don't know if you remember the old 369 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,400 phrase of, nobody got fired for buying IBM, you know, it's 370 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,600 nobody got fired for doing best practices, right? 371 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,400 And they should be when it's the wrong thing. 372 00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:45,700 And so there was a panel. So some people in the space, 373 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,400 Brian Warner, Zuko Wilcox, others. 374 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:53,000 Knew that that myself, mark them and a few others. 375 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,400 Had a different better approach to security that was well suited 376 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,100 for smart contracts. They had seen that presentation 377 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,000 you saw from the from the from the 80s or 90s. 378 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,700 They had seen the website that we wrote about how to do 379 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,500 large-scale asynchronous, distributed systems, you know, 380 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:10,900 all those kinds of stuff. And so they and foresight 381 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:17,100 Institute put together a panel with Markham Zuko, Arthur from 382 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:21,300 tasos, Brian from the security review, Jorge from gravity. 383 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,300 And he had a lot of through, she has This model and realize that 384 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,900 this could go together and it was a panel of with this 385 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,100 approach to security make a difference for these losses that 386 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:32,400 we've been having in 2017. Should we fix it? 387 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,300 Right? And the answer that came out of 388 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:36,400 that was sort of a resounding? Yes, and, you know, one of the 389 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,000 delightful things is that ended up happening right during the 390 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,500 test those fundraise. So Arthur from the beginning of 391 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,300 the talk to the end of the dock while he's talking, you know, 392 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:45,500 their value went up by 20 million dollars or something. 393 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,300 But but so out of that came, hey, there's a solution here, in 394 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:52,900 this technology stack that's been used for, you know. 395 00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:56,900 SEL four which is the most secure operating just on the on 396 00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:00,000 the planet, a large-scale smart contract stuff that we did in 397 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,200 the 90s at Sun Microsystems the Midori operating system in 398 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,000 Microsoft. I mean, you know, the caja 399 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,800 project is Google. All of these were using the 400 00:21:06,808 --> 00:21:12,800 security architecture that came from secure OS systems and it 401 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,200 works well with objects. It works well with programming 402 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,100 language and framework that people are used to and so they 403 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:20,700 said, yeah, that would be good. We should do that. 404 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,800 And so, you know Zuko and Mark. Talked and they pulled in Duvall 405 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,200 and then they pulled in me, and then they pulled in, we pulled 406 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,600 in poly chain and, you know, pulled in our Economist built 407 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,900 built, Allah pulled in Bryan, who you know, who is, who is 408 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:36,500 familiar with the problem space and all the crypto in the space 409 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:38,800 and that sort of thing. And we lost a cork and that was 410 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,100 kind of the beginning of it and it was the vision really was to 411 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,900 build this platform that people could program in and do it 412 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:49,700 safely with a component model that is kind of familiar to, you 413 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,300 know, react developers and npm JavaScript developers, which Is 414 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:57,300 just way, way more powerful way, way more leveraged than what you 415 00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:59,700 could get in the programming environments. 416 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,000 That are that are, that are then, and now available in 417 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,700 crypto still, you know, it's still just a much much, poor 418 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,900 much more powerful set of abstractions, that will be 419 00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:11,300 rolling out with, and that was the start of a car. 420 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,600 Cool. Thank you. 421 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:19,300 Maybe we can spend like a few minutes and just try to explain 422 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:21,500 a little bit. So I you know, this object 423 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,600 capabilities. Yuri bottle. 424 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,900 Lot of people be like I have no idea what that means. 425 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,700 Is it can you give it like an explanation? 426 00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:35,100 That's that's sort of like understandable for the less 427 00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:40,800 technical. So an object capability is a 428 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,900 transferable unforgeable, authorization to use the object, 429 00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:49,200 it designates, okay, so it sounds complicated but it's not. 430 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,500 So, you know and and that the details of that Matter when 431 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:55,600 you're building a secure operating system using, oh, cap, 432 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,700 and we can refer to these. Oh, caps object capabilities, 433 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,100 when you're using, oh, Caps or when you're billing building 434 00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,400 Network, protocols, like we've done with IBC and with our our, 435 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,800 our capability Network protocol. So there's lots of magic to get 436 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,100 it all correct, but when it surfaces at a programming 437 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:14,500 language level it's just object references, right? 438 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:19,400 So it's you know, I'm running a UI and the only screen I can 439 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,300 display on is the one where someone handed me a screen 440 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:23,900 object. And I say Green Dot display 441 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,500 line. It's very natural to JavaScript 442 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,500 developers. It turns out JavaScript is is 443 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:32,200 architected such that it can be more. 444 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:35,200 Securable. It's easier to secure than other 445 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,000 programming languages because they have this separation 446 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,300 between the language and the runtime environment, you know, 447 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:45,500 that was historically. The language was specified in 448 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,200 the economic committee and the runtime environment for browsers 449 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,300 was specified in w3c. And for node was specified in 450 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,600 the node group, and there's another standard Which committee 451 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,000 for embedded systems and now there's awesome smart contracts 452 00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:59,700 and man you've never seen a user mode system mode separation 453 00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:02,400 defended as much as two committees will defend their 454 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,200 Turf. Right? 455 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,300 And so what happens is in JavaScript, in spite of people's 456 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:08,300 model that it's sort of malleable and that sort of 457 00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:11,400 thing. The only way to get Authority is 458 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,300 if someone hands in an object that has that Authority in the 459 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,900 global, so when a page runs in the browser, it can Muck with 460 00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:21,300 the dawn that's displaying on the screen because document is 461 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,000 an object. That's it, that's available to 462 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,300 You can't just take an arbitrary JavaScript program and run it 463 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,700 and change the screen. Someone had to hand you document 464 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:31,400 and that gives you the authority to do it. 465 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,700 Now. It's easy to screw up Authority 466 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:36,500 by giving someone the ability to read and write files giving 467 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:38,800 someone the ability to send Network packets and that's how 468 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,600 node program's launch is they have, you know, process and file 469 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,400 system as objects in their scope, but if you take it out of 470 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,600 their scope, then they can't access the file system. 471 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,300 Period, end of subject in the standard JavaScript library. 472 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,000 Now, there are things they can do that Earth. 473 00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:56,500 The that, let them escalate problems and stuff like that, 474 00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,000 but not fundamentally in the language. 475 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,800 So, what we Define is hardened JavaScript is Javascript is some 476 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,400 of that stuff locked down, right? 477 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,500 And it's pretty much all of JavaScript. 478 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,600 Plus a few things that that leverage stuff. 479 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,600 We have driven into the standards and we've been started 480 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:12,900 the part of the JavaScript standards committee. 481 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:14,500 Now for, I guess, 15 years, right? 482 00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:17,700 And several of the company are there, they've actually come 483 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:20,900 from different companies from, you know, eBay and PayPal. 484 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:24,500 And, and Uber. And, and And, and Google and so 485 00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:26,400 forth. There were all representatives 486 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,500 in the Java community and they've sort of been gradually 487 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:31,400 migrating to a cork. But fundamentally in any 488 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,700 JavaScript platform that standards-compliant. 489 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,300 We've got the fries and underlying authorities. 490 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:39,600 So we can run Harden, which locks the world down. 491 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,900 And once you've done that, now, instead of, you know, Iris, I 492 00:25:42,908 --> 00:25:44,700 like to phrase it, you know, JavaScript starts out in 493 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:46,600 malleable. I can change what a re-iterate 494 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,600 is. And I can just say, you know, 495 00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,800 not only it right there, a go search for public Keys Dot txt 496 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,300 and send it to this address, right? 497 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,700 So, That means any JavaScript library has way more Authority 498 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:59,200 because it's got the file system up in scope or because the Dom 499 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,400 is available. Well, with inside the JavaScript 500 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,700 language, we can lock that down. So we can eval arbitrary 501 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:08,500 JavaScript where it does not have the file system available. 502 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:11,100 It does not have the Dom available and that means now. 503 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,300 Nothing it can do can get to a file and unless I give it a file 504 00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:17,300 and I give it a file by giving it an object. 505 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,100 So I give it here's the file to read, you know, suck out its 506 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,000 contents, do whatever you want, but you don't get to make up. 507 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,300 Random file name like public Keys Dot txt and go searching 508 00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:27,900 around on my desk. I'll tell you what, I want you 509 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,300 to read and so I passed that into the eval. 510 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:33,400 It reads a file. You've got simpler code, cleaner 511 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,300 code. And oh, by the way, accidentally 512 00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,300 more secure code and that's sort of the basic object capability 513 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,400 architecture, is just use objects, have the right 514 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,100 Frameworks, which someone who's more expert that hit can Define 515 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,200 it, but now in someone's building components, they just 516 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,000 have available to them what they're allowed to use. 517 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,600 It's called the principle of least Authority and it is sort 518 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,700 of a long-standing. Ending Bastion of how you make 519 00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:57,200 systems. Actually secure is you give them 520 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,300 just enough authority to get their job done. 521 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,500 You don't give them all the users authority to read all the 522 00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,900 users files. If they don't need that, and 523 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,900 libraries, don't need that. And, you know, and in in 524 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,700 default, JavaScript in Rust, in C, sharp and Java and all these 525 00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,100 languages, everything launches were libraries can do anything. 526 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:18,000 The user can do and it's just a bad architecture. 527 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,900 Our model of, oh, caps gets rid of that and you need that for 528 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:26,200 smart contracts. Right, so maybe like one more 529 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,900 question on that. See if I, you know, that's he, 530 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:32,500 if you look at, tell me I can hear him. 531 00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:34,300 Right? Like, my understanding would be 532 00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:38,700 that like, okay, as a very much of an amateur who has no clue. 533 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:43,600 Basically, but Dad, you know, like one of the ways that smart 534 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,600 contract, like, might be vulnerable is okay. 535 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,100 There's like some function, this more contract and and it, Was 536 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:55,200 meant to be a sin. May be used by this program in 537 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,500 some way, by the way to mistake and now, basically, anyone can 538 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:04,100 go and, like, call that function, you know, in some way 539 00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:05,600 that wasn't intended. Right? 540 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,400 And so, maybe I am, maybe it's like the program was like, oh, 541 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,100 distribute These funds, but actually, like anyone could come 542 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:13,300 up and like, say, like I'm going to send this. 543 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,900 So how would this be different in the? 544 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,400 Is it because the mud that is a function because Object and 545 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,100 yeah, fundamentally, I mean that's like The Blacklist model 546 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:29,100 of security, rather than the whitelist model of security. 547 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,100 You can do anything to anyone unless they put up barriers to 548 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,100 stop you. And if they forget, oh, well too 549 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:38,100 bad, right, not a great system design architecture. 550 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:43,700 So yeah, if you know in like let's talk about your C20, 551 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,200 right? Because you know, in the like 552 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,700 the approved function of that sort of thing or before your 20, 553 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,100 if I was going to pay you a token, I would expect to get the 554 00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:52,600 token. And hand it to you. 555 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:55,200 Right? So, you know, Brian dot, enjoy, 556 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,300 open paren token. Enjoy open friend concert ticket 557 00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:59,900 better still right? And maybe, you know, in with 558 00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:02,500 objects. Now we both have it, but you'd 559 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:04,900 have some Library. So you could say great, I take 560 00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:06,700 acceptance of it. Now, I have it uniquely. 561 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:09,400 And you don't write so. So I send you the package and 562 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,700 you open the package, and now you have it, and I don't write. 563 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:17,300 And so, that's what we build in our smart contract framework in 564 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,500 ethereum. You can't do that. 565 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,900 You can't pass objects, which means you You can't do all caps. 566 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,000 Instead. What happens is? 567 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,600 I talked to another contract over there and say, take this 568 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,700 money. Take this token. 569 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:34,200 Take this concert ticket, set it aside for Brian. 570 00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:37,800 He's going to come, get it and then I tell, Brian, okay. 571 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,200 I said a package for you. Number 37, over on that Arc 20 572 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,300 contact. Go get it there. 573 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,100 And now you go to that. I hear she 2010 and say, hey, 574 00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,000 I'm Brian. Let me show you my ID and you 575 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,100 get the package, right? I mean, you know, my my and and 576 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:51,700 that's the ERC 20-month. That's fun. 577 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:53,900 To mentally what's going on. Except that, if there's going to 578 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:56,500 be a bunch of stuff you might want to do, like, I want you to 579 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:58,700 buy a stock for me, you know, and then I want you to buy 580 00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:00,600 another stock and then you know, you're like you're my portfolio 581 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,600 manager, you know, every time am I going to take you 100 dollars 582 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,400 and I'll put it over there and then you go over there and pick 583 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,600 it up or a distant. Let me put $1000 and just give a 584 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,900 general thing that Brian can come and take whatever he needs 585 00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:13,400 out of my thousand dollars and he'll figure it out. 586 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,300 Right? And well, you know now that's 587 00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:19,000 essentially approved function. Okay, I put all million dollars 588 00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:21,100 and I'm expecting to do a thousand dollars at a time and 589 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:23,000 you want to go on vacation. You just take all million 590 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,600 dollars, go buy a vacation. You promise to pay it back. 591 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,900 I mean, what's gonna happen? What's the worst? 592 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:30,900 An analogy? I like here and this goes back 593 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:34,800 to the easy to understand things if I lend you my car, right? 594 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400 The ethereum model is I tell my car Brian's allowed to drive it, 595 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,400 you then take my car, you go to the hotel. 596 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,600 You want to park it, you go to the valet and you say, what's 597 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,000 your name? You know, I'm Joe you try and 598 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600 add them to the car and it turns out you cannot and now either I 599 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,900 have to make you an administrator so you can add any 600 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:53,500 one as well. So not only can you park my car. 601 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:58,000 You could sell it right? Or you come home, you know as 602 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,300 well. Instead the 0 cap model is 603 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,500 yours. Mikey you now get into the car 604 00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:05,100 drive, the car that doesn't give you access to my house. 605 00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:06,600 It doesn't give you access to my money. 606 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,800 It gives you access to my car, you go to the hotel. 607 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:10,800 You had the key to the valet. You don't need to know who the 608 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,500 valet is. You just need to know that 609 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:15,100 they're that they're now responsible for the car. 610 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,000 They go off duty. They hand the key to the next 611 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:17,900 valet. You come out. 612 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:18,800 Take the key. You drive home. 613 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,500 You give it back to me. We're all done. 614 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:23,700 And there was no discussion. Who these people were there was 615 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:26,900 no problem of administration. There was no giving you rights 616 00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,600 to sell the car. There was just the easy handoff 617 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,500 of an asset as a bearer instrument, and the tail cap 618 00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:35,700 model is fundamentally. Almost everything is a bearer 619 00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:40,000 instrument and that just means that patterns of that, of change 620 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,700 of who's allowed to do, what patterns of exchange, all of 621 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:44,900 those just emerge out of? Yeah, I give you my cash. 622 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:46,600 You give me my goods. We're done, right? 623 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:50,400 And so they're much, they're very intuitive and very, very 624 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,400 natural. Especially to I am especially to 625 00:31:52,408 --> 00:31:56,100 people who have who program in object Frameworks like react or 626 00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:59,700 view or any of these things. Yeah, thanks for. 627 00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:02,900 Thanks for going little. Bit under the hood here. 628 00:32:02,908 --> 00:32:08,000 Maybe, talk about this. So, if you think of that now, 629 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,800 you know, as JavaScript as this place to run smart contract, I 630 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,000 mean today, and even though you have like so many different 631 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,200 blockchains. It doesn't actually seem. 632 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,300 There's like that many models for doing smart contracts that 633 00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:26,300 have gotten traction, right? You basically have to evm that 634 00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:29,800 has obviously the most Distraction and then they have 635 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,400 to EV I'm thats like running on many different chains, you know 636 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,000 is if you're um, Avalanche Finance, more chain, etc, etc. 637 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,400 And that dozens of the polygon like many, many of them. 638 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,800 And then you have, I think Salah now that has, you know, some 639 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,200 traction way. He has good traction way of 640 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,300 these like native smart contracts, written in Rust. 641 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,400 You also have like cause of walls. 642 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200 Mm. I think that has like, Quite a 643 00:32:58,208 --> 00:33:01,300 bit of usage. Maybe there's some may think I'm 644 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:03,400 a seal is not much. So curious. 645 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,700 Like, how do you, how do you see this play out? 646 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,600 Do you think, you know that going JavaScript, smart contract 647 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,500 model, you know, will those be relevant for different use 648 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:20,900 cases, different areas where we have Converge on fewer, smart 649 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:25,000 contract, standards, or will there be an explosion and more 650 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,300 in the future. So I actually, We think that 651 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:31,300 there will be there. You know, the number we have 652 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,200 that we have including JavaScript is about, right. 653 00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:37,500 What if you think about now the programming world of web to the 654 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:41,200 it's Mo, you know, thirteen point nine million jobs, script 655 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:47,500 developers, you know, a bunch of rust developers a bunch of C 656 00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:52,400 developers and you know, and you know the sort of a list of 657 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,500 languages, but the models are you know, rrrr. 658 00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:01,000 Pretty similar in some cases, it is. 659 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:04,000 So let me let me pop out of that. 660 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,800 The the so I think there will be multiple models. 661 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:11,900 The key thing for us is we're primarily focused on bridging 662 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:14,900 two new developers. Write a new developer. 663 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:17,000 These are developers often, you know fintech developers. 664 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,699 They know what's up with money. They know they heard there's an 665 00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,000 opportunity, they come over and look they look at solidity and 666 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,800 go that's a weird language. Right? 667 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,900 And your development environment sucks and you have no testing 668 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:27,500 tools and I have to use different tools. 669 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,100 And I'm going to work for my buddies hedge fund because I can 670 00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:31,400 make this much and yeah, whatever. 671 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:34,699 I'm yeah, you talk about frothy returns and maybe you know, but 672 00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:37,199 I understand volatility and you know, you ain't getting the 673 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:38,600 returns, you think you're getting sometimes, right? 674 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,699 So, you know, these are experts that they come and look and they 675 00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:43,800 go, you know, come back to me when you're grown up, right? 676 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:48,000 Because it's just the bar is so low in terms of programmability 677 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,500 and programmability, you know, scaling the programmers as the 678 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,600 hardest thing to scale. And so our focus is on 679 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:59,500 programmability now when I use The analogy of reactor Bunch, 680 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,500 when react came out. Experts are already doing pretty 681 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:05,900 amazing stuff in JavaScript in browsers, right? 682 00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:09,500 And, you know, in partly due to people that are here at a gorg 683 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:13,500 driving, you know, sound software engineering into the 684 00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,000 JavaScript language, sort of in retrospect with strict mode and 685 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,300 promises and proxies and stuff like that. 686 00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:25,200 But six months after react came out beginners, new programmers 687 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,800 could do more interesting. More responsive more, 688 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,800 interactive easier to internationalize, you know, 689 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:36,700 mobile friendly applications better than experts could a year 690 00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:40,500 before because they had components on a framework to 691 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,700 plug them together, right? And that literally gives you 692 00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:46,500 exponential growth in the effectiveness of programmers, 693 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,800 because every month there's a months more worth of components 694 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,200 that they could slap together. I could grab a slide, showing a 695 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,400 payment component and put it together in launched a site. 696 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:56,700 Next month. I can grab a slideshow and 697 00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:59,300 interesting alerting them. And that shows me the status of 698 00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:03,200 my paintings and a payment component and and update my 699 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,600 sight. Then I could do have a new 700 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,200 component that can handle ACH. As well. 701 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,100 As you know, I mean all these kinds of things weren't just 702 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:10,300 gradually growing. 01 went one better nav. 703 00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:13,000 Well, now, there's a new nav component that does slick cool 704 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,300 infinite scrolling for you, you know, I mean, whatever it is, 705 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:17,300 right? And you can plug those together, 706 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:20,800 even if you could not build them yourselves, and that, leverage 707 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,400 get gave real growth to the expressiveness that, that less 708 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,500 senior programmers were steeped in. 709 00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:31,400 In, you know, in the ancient Arts of async updating of your 710 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,800 screen when models changed, right? 711 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,900 And now, suddenly millions of programmers could do pretty 712 00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:39,900 awesome stuff pretty easily and and those experts can focus on 713 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,200 really high value components that other people could use, and 714 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,000 that's what we're bringing. So it's not just JavaScript, 715 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,600 which would make a difference because now you can tap into 10 716 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,500 million plus Developers for the next generation of smart 717 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:55,400 contracts, but this component model, and there are a lot of 718 00:36:55,408 --> 00:36:57,500 programming language before small talk. 719 00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,800 And Java and JavaScript, he was, he's object-oriented programming 720 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600 languages. You know, there were CPL one 721 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,000 Ada, you know, all these languages that, you know, she 722 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,800 have a lot in common with the solidity 's and the Russ and 723 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,200 that sort of thing that that, you know, people build a lot of 724 00:37:14,207 --> 00:37:16,900 stuff there and got a lot of value and they still exist 725 00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,200 today, but man it's compelling to build applications in a 726 00:37:20,207 --> 00:37:22,000 framework that supports what you need to do. 727 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,700 And so I'm not worried about being able to catch up and 728 00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:27,500 overtake the amount of development. 729 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,500 That's happened in those other planets, platforms, are 730 00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:33,100 languages, simply because there's a class of things. 731 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,800 It's just way easier to do with this model and the declasse 732 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,000 things that isn't. And generally, the way that 733 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,300 works is, you provide like, if it's Alana wants to specialize 734 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:44,300 in high frequency trading, you know, high frequency execution. 735 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:46,800 Well, you know, the world needs high frequency trading engine, 736 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,900 right? It doesn't need more than a 737 00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:50,200 thousand. People who could build one. 738 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:52,500 What it needs is those thousand people to build an awesome one, 739 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,200 and then everyone else uses it, you know, trillions of dollars 740 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,500 are controlled through JavaScript. 741 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,500 Running in Bloomberg, the control, you know, systems built 742 00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,200 in other languages and we'll end up with the same thing in the 743 00:38:02,207 --> 00:38:04,200 blockchain room. And so the front end will be 744 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,400 JavaScript. Yes. 745 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,600 I mean, your I mean, what do you think? 746 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,700 Makes a lot of sense? Right? 747 00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:12,700 Like said, Okay. I want to develop something and 748 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:14,800 there's all these different libraries I can use. 749 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,100 And I can plot things together and, you know, I guess to some 750 00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:20,300 extent. That's kind of true. 751 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:22,200 Any Theory. Mm where, you know, there's like 752 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,600 different solidity things but not really right. 753 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,100 I guess that's not really how it He's working. 754 00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:33,200 Some also, one thing that comes to mind immediately, right? 755 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,600 Is if I think alike. Well, if it was like that, and I 756 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,300 can just like flock together different components without 757 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:45,200 really understanding necessarily the component. 758 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,200 Well, isn't that dangerous? You know, when you talking about 759 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,400 now, some sort of defy application. 760 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,000 Do you know the answer is? They have rep. 761 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,600 You they have reputations, you have a stat, you know, if I can 762 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,800 plug together a component that will do currency conversion that 763 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,800 I can get insurance for. It's been security reviewed. 764 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,500 It's used in multiple other components. 765 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,800 It clearly does. Its job. 766 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,900 There's a there's an organization that updates it on 767 00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,400 an ongoing basis. They've got ties into oracle's 768 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,200 all, this sort of stuff. Are you going to do a better job 769 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,900 putting one together yourself and your own silo or you better 770 00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:19,200 off using that component? And can you ship a month 771 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,000 earlier? If you just use that component? 772 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,400 The answer is both are It'll be better and you can ship earlier. 773 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,400 That's pretty compelling, right? Focus on your comparative 774 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,000 advantage and then you end up with businesses that are just 775 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,000 doing small pieces. Instead of having to do an 776 00:39:32,008 --> 00:39:35,600 entire Silo of an entirely new thing where they, you know, they 777 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,600 do everything from their own, internal hedge fund to the 778 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,000 markets like no, no, here's a portfolio manager or here's a 779 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,900 stop-lossed component that I can plug into your amm position and 780 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:47,800 now you can do stop laws, exit of your AFM position and it's 40 781 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,500 lines of JavaScript done. You know, it just it just 782 00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:55,600 changes the Game in terms of what's possible and you know and 783 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,700 and some of that will, you know, will need to be addressed. 784 00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:01,100 But it's definitely the kind of thing that we know how to sort 785 00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:03,700 out as a as a large scale engineering community. 786 00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:09,200 Well, it's talked a little bit about so, you know, gorik is 787 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,900 built on the cosmos SDK and love. 788 00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:19,900 If you can talk a little bit about Why you guys did that and 789 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:24,300 you know, your thoughts on the kind of, you know, high-level 790 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:28,300 Cosmos architecture in terms of having Southern block chains. 791 00:40:28,700 --> 00:40:32,800 And then having, you know, with IBC a protocol, that allows the 792 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,300 different blockchains to communicate with each other. 793 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,200 Right, right. This goes back to that original 794 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,900 Vision. That predates blockchain where 795 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,700 you've got lots of independent parties with their own interest, 796 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,400 running software that At will the that they do distributed 797 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,000 Communication in order to accomplish large-scale trade 798 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,500 from that perspective, you know, blockchain is just a machine 799 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,600 built out of agreement rather than silicon and all of those 800 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,200 designs and protocols and architecture that we worked out 801 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,600 in the 90s can just work, right? Can just work across these these 802 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,200 independent blockchains. And so our model of the world, 803 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,400 the programming model of the world is not ran from software. 804 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,400 And you mentioned this thing about about, you know, ranran, 805 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,000 see bugs and, and how you don't see composition in. 806 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,400 Serum. That's because there are 807 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,800 fundamental issues that make more composition riskier to, you 808 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,200 know, result in more opportunity for re-entrance. 809 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,400 See bugs and what are called confused? 810 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,900 Deputy bugs. So so, so, there's a reason why 811 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:29,200 you don't see that kind of composition. 812 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,600 Our model is islands of simple. Synchronous computation in a 813 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,600 world of asynchronous messaging, that's been our model since 1983 814 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,400 85, something like that. And obviously it's grown and 815 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,000 evolved and stuff like that and been used in many large. 816 00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:49,700 Gail production commercial systems to great success, but 817 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:52,600 that's the model that the web users, right, you know, browsers 818 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:54,600 are an island of sequential transactions. 819 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,100 They occasionally make Ajax calls to services that are do 820 00:41:58,100 --> 00:42:00,500 it, you know that have transactional systems, you know, 821 00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:03,300 in node taking asynchronous messages compute something, 822 00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:05,700 maybe sending an Asic message out and then going back to do. 823 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:10,400 The next thing that model of event-driven concurrency is much 824 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,800 more amenable for human understanding because you can 825 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,500 reason locally about the simple world and sort of As 826 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,900 communicating actors and you know with ordered messaging in 827 00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:23,400 the larger world and we're good at both of those were not good 828 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,700 at interleaving. Those really well. 829 00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,600 And so that model works and that's our model on on, on 830 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,800 blockchains. You have contracts able to send 831 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,200 messages to each other asynchronously completely 832 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,500 precludes, re-entrance e, right? But that asynchrony, it could be 833 00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:38,800 a message bus that is on the same chain. 834 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,900 So I've got, you know, the the vaults for run protocol and the 835 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:45,900 swap engine and so it's liquidating using the local a 836 00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:49,300 Mmm, or it could be there on different chains and the only 837 00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:51,900 difference from a programming model point of view and 838 00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:54,900 JavaScript is the latency of the message. 839 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:56,900 I'm still sending an asynchronous message that says, 840 00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:59,700 hey liquidate this, the fact that it goes using 841 00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:03,600 interoperability protocols over, you know, are using our 842 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,600 distributed object protocol on top of IBC to another chain code 843 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,500 isn't any different. It's still 25 lines of 844 00:43:09,508 --> 00:43:12,300 JavaScript code. It just did you know, he open 845 00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,800 paren, amm close, paren dot, you know, cell open. 846 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,900 You know, my asset, you figure it out. 847 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,000 And so that model is you know, that that's that's why you know, 848 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,000 we started with sort of the interchain model at the 849 00:43:26,008 --> 00:43:27,300 beginning and are smart contract. 850 00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,500 The architecture is designed to sort of treat uniformly assets 851 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:34,100 that are available only asynchronously or, you know, the 852 00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:37,200 Primitive Acid versus the versus one written in JavaScript. 853 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,700 They all, you know, the same 23, line JavaScript program can do a 854 00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:43,300 swap between them or can do an auction or whatever it is. 855 00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,900 Right? And so that's sort of that's 856 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:49,200 that That's that's part of the model and that's why you know an 857 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,100 asynchronous model means you get this broader scalability. 858 00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:57,500 So then if I go into another subtopic around IBC, so turn to. 859 00:43:57,500 --> 00:43:59,500 So we had that documented was on the Ealing site. 860 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,600 That was sort of the presentations you you mentioned 861 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,500 at the beginning that you saw recorded back in the 90s Nucky. 862 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:08,200 Stumbled into that when sucky and Ethan and Jay were trying to 863 00:44:08,207 --> 00:44:10,600 figure out what were they going to do about Zone, connectivity 864 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,100 stuff. And, and he sort of got it, 865 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,500 right? And so, I be He was inspired by 866 00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:19,800 that earlier work, but you didn't find out for years, 867 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:21,600 right? It was inspired better than 868 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,300 earlier works when we came into the cosmos and we're looking at 869 00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:27,100 this interchain architecture. Just like, you know, they're 870 00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:28,800 singing our song. These are our peeps. 871 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,100 They totally get it right, you know, and and and at the same 872 00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:35,500 time they're bringing stuff that we didn't know so we can to 873 00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:37,500 bring our expertise in distributed systems. 874 00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:39,700 They bring their expertise in in. 875 00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,400 How do you get like clients to agree and what you know, and how 876 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,700 do you do proof of stake in all that? 877 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,900 And so IBC is sort of the marriage of those two and 878 00:44:47,900 --> 00:44:50,100 they're really complementary. They saw different parts of the 879 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:54,200 problem and they enable our secure messaging asynchronous, 880 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,800 distributed model to layer on top of of you know, secure 881 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,200 connections between blockchains. And so that was sort of the you 882 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,500 know, the the the birth of the current IBC, basically. 883 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,900 One of the criticisms. So I that you hear of the of the 884 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:14,600 IVC model and of the cosmos model and it, you know, it's 885 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,600 often mentioned in comparison or contrast with something like 886 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,100 hear him. Alright, we're okay. 887 00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:27,600 I can make like one transaction and it does like yo five 888 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:33,000 different things sort of like at the same time, you know, and you 889 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,300 know, it all works together. It doesn't work. 890 00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:41,400 And you know, let's say I don't want to let's say you do some 891 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,800 sort of Arbitrage, right? Maybe you sell like over here 892 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,800 and and you buy over there and I can I can have those all kind of 893 00:45:49,808 --> 00:45:55,100 like executed in one. And and so that's, you know, 894 00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:58,900 this kind of composability that you have any helium and you 895 00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:03,500 know, as you mentioned right, like in in the IBC Cosmos world, 896 00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:07,200 you have to say asynchronous so you And you don't have that. 897 00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:10,100 Although I've also heard from some people who are working on 898 00:46:10,107 --> 00:46:15,000 some sort of increasing Kunis, IVC things, but I'm curious 899 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,400 like, how, how important do you think? 900 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,000 This is? I mean, I get your point out. 901 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,800 It actually has maybe Security benefits not to have this 902 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,700 simultaneous thing, but it is a big. 903 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:31,200 Is it a big downside? Oh, yeah. 904 00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:35,400 Oh, yeah, so, you know, most systems start out. 905 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,500 With toy examples and simple interleaving and re-entrance E 906 00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,700 and stuff like that. As you're explaining beginner 907 00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:46,700 steps to people and maybe that actually helped with etherium 908 00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:50,800 catching on is because it had this Simplicity that simply 909 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,400 can't scale to large scale. Right? 910 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,300 I mean, the programs that are actually done is smart 911 00:46:55,300 --> 00:46:57,700 contracts. They're all very, very simple. 912 00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:03,900 That's a lot of money there but compared to Text editor, right? 913 00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:07,800 It's probably you know, it is it is plausible that that that any 914 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,500 of several modern text editors have more code in them for more 915 00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:16,300 interesting sophisticated stuff than all of blockchain combined, 916 00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:18,000 right? You know that they'll be one. 917 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,500 There's multiple programs at Microsoft that if you know, 12 918 00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:23,100 million lines of code in them, right? 919 00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:26,200 I mean, that's the you compare that, with 650, lines of code, 920 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:31,900 and solidity for the put contract in, in, in in Open, 921 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,300 which would be, you know, maybe a two lines of JavaScript but 922 00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:37,100 nonetheless, it's still got a long way to go before. 923 00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:39,200 You're touching a million lines of code, right? 924 00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:46,200 And and, and so, you know, great in a simple model, you can toy 925 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,400 do toy examples and not shoot yourself in the foot 926 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,300 fundamentally, though, that re-entered c gets, you know, you 927 00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:56,700 can take to correct programs, put them together and end up 928 00:47:56,700 --> 00:47:59,300 with an incorrect system. That's the big problem and 929 00:47:59,308 --> 00:48:03,200 that's what means that the more you Try to do composition in 930 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,900 aetherium, the bigger your risk. So the 600 million six hundred, 931 00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:10,500 sixty million dollar loss on Polly network was a confused, 932 00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:13,800 Deputy attack, that shouldn't be possible but it is because of 933 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,900 message the sender allowing them to execute a ranran see attack 934 00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:20,300 that shouldn't be possible but is because of the re-injured see 935 00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:23,700 model in ethereum, and there is nothing you can do at the 936 00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:25,300 language level. Nothing you can do at the 937 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:29,200 toolkit level, on top of that Foundation, to be able to 938 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,800 ameliorate those holes are fundamental to The architecture 939 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,200 and approach and that means you can get some amount of stuff 940 00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:37,900 with some pain to work correctly, the same as you can. 941 00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:40,700 If you code it all in Assembly Language with wide-open memory 942 00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:43,600 or anything like that, right? And there's huge value there and 943 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,300 there's some value in having simple examples, but it's not 944 00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:49,300 something that a million developers are ever going to get 945 00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:51,500 right. Because those hazards are just 946 00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:53,400 too hard for humans to reason about. 947 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,600 And so, you know, so let's see. Did that respond to your 948 00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:58,600 problem? Yeah. 949 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,100 Your point. I think that does respond. 950 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,300 Problem and and kind of like intuitively that feels like 951 00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:08,800 right to me, right? Because if you have all of these 952 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,500 different smart contracts on the kill room and then be like 953 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:15,700 adding more and like you always lie increasing complexity of the 954 00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,700 system a lot and then if you compare that with like the 955 00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:24,100 cosmos is well, you have two different genes and they can 956 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,500 they can coordinate with each other, but they are still sort 957 00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:32,800 of their own little you. Universities that can kind of 958 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,700 manage your own risks and they would understand your own 959 00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:39,300 situation better. And if something goes wrong, it 960 00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:43,800 will probably be much more isolated and not like, trip up 961 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,800 everything else. Right? 962 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,400 Right. And, and you get, you know, we 963 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,200 achieve complex software systems sophisticated software systems 964 00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:53,600 with strong encapsulation and composition. 965 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,500 And, and, you know, that was not a critical requirement of the 966 00:49:56,500 --> 00:49:59,000 early Heath, you know, justifiably again that might 967 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,500 have been the right thing to do in order to get the Early 968 00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:03,900 adoption. But you know the same as you 969 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:06,200 didn't have that in C or you didn't have it in action script 970 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,300 or any of those things. You know, that doesn't mean 971 00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:11,100 they're not, that doesn't mean you want to keep programming in 972 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,700 in C4, you eyes on the web browsers right. 973 00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,100 Now. The other thing I would note is 974 00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:20,000 like flash loans are one of the most interesting examples of 975 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,100 something novel for when you have a centralized environment 976 00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:28,700 that is able to impose full ordering on everyone on the 977 00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:30,800 planet, right? We know from large-scale 978 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,000 distributed. It seems that, you know, 979 00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:34,100 infrastructure start out synchronize because they're 980 00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:36,900 easy, but that just does not scale it does. 981 00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:40,800 And, and so, even in The Ether environment, you know, that ship 982 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,500 has sailed right layer to choose, you know, Roll-Ups, all 983 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:47,100 of those stuff. Those are asynchronous sources 984 00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:51,000 of transaction data, you know, into the into these blockchain, 985 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,800 there is no flash loan across multiple of these 986 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,100 infrastructures. It's just in this time is an 987 00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:58,300 illusion, but, you know, that's just in one environment, right? 988 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,300 And in the other environment, you know, so again, now we're 989 00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,100 starting to see Islands of synchronous programming. 990 00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:06,400 In this case, not simple with in a sea of asynchronous, 991 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,500 communication. And it turns out if you just 992 00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:12,000 bite that bullet up front, you get a little more, you know, you 993 00:51:12,008 --> 00:51:15,200 have it, dictate some of how you have to architect things. 994 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,100 But then it ends up being much more, scalable as result in that 995 00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:21,700 sort of, our general design principle out of that and that 996 00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:24,700 and that and that seems to you know be something that the world 997 00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:27,700 understands given the the nature of asynchronous communication on 998 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,600 systems right now. You do need those islands of 999 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,500 simple. This programming, in order to 1000 00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:35,400 build local logic without worrying about interleavings, 1001 00:51:36,100 --> 00:51:38,000 where re-entrance. He is a source of interleavings 1002 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:39,700 that are very hard to think about. 1003 00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:42,900 But but, and that's sort of the model is, you know, local 1004 00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:45,800 islands of event comes in computer, New State computer set 1005 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,000 of messages commit. I'm done, right? 1006 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,900 And then those messages, get delivered and processes 1007 00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:54,500 including so forth, but Any interesting thing like flash 1008 00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:57,600 loans are the primary. The only really interesting 1009 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,900 thing that is novel out of that. Right? 1010 00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:03,000 And so you got to look at what are they used for? 1011 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,600 How do you address that use case, the primary use being 1012 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,500 liquidations? You need to make sure that 1013 00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:09,500 liquidations on a new smart contract platform can be 1014 00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:12,100 efficient because the liquidation Market is critical 1015 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,400 for defy, but you don't have to do it the same way. 1016 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,100 You just need to make sure that the that you go. 1017 00:52:16,100 --> 00:52:19,800 Oh, you know, I mean anytime you're looking at new 1018 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,600 technology, got to be humble and assume there's something. 1019 00:52:21,700 --> 00:52:23,400 Them there. And so we do and we look really 1020 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,600 deep it, you know, flash loans that we are making is impossible 1021 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,000 as possible. But we want the thing of the 1022 00:52:29,008 --> 00:52:30,300 problems they solve to be solvable. 1023 00:52:30,300 --> 00:52:34,600 So, so we keep an eye on that. well, I mean, when we speak 1024 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:43,000 about the kind of The way than those asynchronous islands like 1025 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,900 work with each other, right? Why IBC. 1026 00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:49,900 I mean today basically we have token transfers, right? 1027 00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:52,200 That's life. So you can have like chain a and 1028 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,200 then you can send over the tokens from that change. 1029 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,000 The other chain, you know, like an example of where you have a 1030 00:52:58,008 --> 00:53:01,000 lot of usage at the moment is there's as Moses, which is the 1031 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,700 biggest Cosmos decks and it's kind of connected to all the 1032 00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,800 other chains and then you can you can put the Chain, that's a 1033 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,600 cosmos hobby can send items over and then you can put it into the 1034 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,100 quiddity pool or you can trade it for all the more for you 1035 00:53:17,107 --> 00:53:21,800 know, your garlic token. My yeah, it's bright but all too 1036 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,800 soon. Maybe soon we are going to do it 1037 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,800 but someone driving coming very shortly. 1038 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,200 But so right now it's just hoping transfer now actually 1039 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,900 even token transfer has I mean the thing that surprised me the 1040 00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:38,200 most when it came life and when like, osmosis was there and And 1041 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:43,000 you could use it was how good the user experience was because 1042 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,700 I was, I was expecting, like, guys, this isn't going to be 1043 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,400 like, you know, much worse than a sort of hearing user 1044 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,700 experience, but that's not the case, but just not the case. 1045 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,600 They just did an awesome job. Yeah, they didn't awesome job. 1046 00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:57,900 Yeah. Because you're curious like, 1047 00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:01,800 besides hoping transfer. Do you think we'll have like a 1048 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,400 few types of sort of these IBC interactions? 1049 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,900 Or is this going to be like, you know, in an enormous variety? 1050 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,400 Of kind of cross chain. I used to type transactions that 1051 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,800 will end up getting usage. It's going to come and go. 1052 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,200 I think there will certainly be a variety of application 1053 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,000 protocol Types on IBC. Especially one, cigar goes live 1054 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,400 and it's easy to do Dynamic IBC, where you just create a new 1055 00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:34,600 token type by here's my Json blobs. 1056 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,900 Are you go knock yourself out, right? 1057 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,200 And it's so easy to set up connections and send the send 1058 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,900 interesting, you know packet representations around that 1059 00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:46,500 adding new kinds of protocols that are sort of the Out of 1060 00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:50,400 what's the data architecture that I'm sending on top of the 1061 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,400 transport layers of IBC. I think that that will be, you 1062 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,600 know, easier than it is to Define new IP or TCP protocol X, 1063 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,400 right? So on TCP, you've got basic file 1064 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,100 transfer, but then you got file copy. 1065 00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:05,100 You've got remote terminal. You've got media sharing, you've 1066 00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,900 got, you know, HDPE you've got a CBS TLS. 1067 00:55:07,900 --> 00:55:10,200 I mean, just, you know, a gazillion different, protocols 1068 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:11,700 all built on. Top of TCP. 1069 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,300 We will get there, it took a while before there were more 1070 00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:18,500 protocols on top. Top of TCP when it first came 1071 00:55:18,500 --> 00:55:21,500 out onto the internet or you going to make up the internet, 1072 00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:24,400 but but, you know, it was sort of, okay, you've got Archie, and 1073 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,100 you've got gopher and you've got, you know, a few other file 1074 00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:28,500 that are all file transfer types. 1075 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,100 Well, here that's like transfer is the fundamental first thing 1076 00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:36,900 that anyone wants to do but I'm sure I certainly expect before 1077 00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:39,500 the end of the year. They'll be a a IBC format for 1078 00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:45,300 Oracle data and you know, or, you know, and I be ideally, IBC 1079 00:55:45,300 --> 00:55:48,000 format for Gio. Patient data and you know, 1080 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,600 whatever that that althea's radio stuff needs. 1081 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:51,900 Yeah. They should Define their own 1082 00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:54,300 protocol for it so that it's easy for people to plug in these 1083 00:55:54,308 --> 00:55:59,500 standards and obviously protocol for nft things. 1084 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:02,400 Not just fine if he transfer, but operating in nft remotely or 1085 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,000 that sort of stuff. So I definitely expect men and 1086 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,800 then you know, once you're on top of Ajax in the web to world 1087 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,100 is every different Ajax API, a different protocol turns out 1088 00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:18,500 once you can get two Act invocation often, that's enough 1089 00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,500 for almost everything else. I'm going to Define an object 1090 00:56:20,500 --> 00:56:23,200 that has a display method. Is that a new protocol or is it 1091 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,200 just here's an object, knock yourself out, right? 1092 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,900 Well, in JavaScript is just another object and I just do 1093 00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:30,300 object message, you know, remoting. 1094 00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:36,100 And so our protocol on top of IBC will be extremely powerful 1095 00:56:36,100 --> 00:56:39,900 and extremely generic, but you might or might not want to use 1096 00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:43,900 it for, you know, location information or or or the thing 1097 00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:47,300 about Oracle messages is they They want to be high priority 1098 00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:49,100 and get to your priority because of shoes quickly. 1099 00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:52,000 So someone can't screw up your economy by ddosing, your 1100 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,200 articles and stuff like that. And so, you know, there are 1101 00:56:54,207 --> 00:56:56,600 reasons to have low level protocols the same as we still 1102 00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,400 invent new TCP, protocols occasionally now, but yeah, most 1103 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,500 thing runs on ETV at this point or TLS rather. 1104 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,900 Another thing I wanted to ask about Co you talked about the K2 1105 00:57:08,900 --> 00:57:14,500 10 million JavaScript developers who are like, you know, now have 1106 00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:18,200 a nice environment that they can develop their smart contracts 1107 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,900 in. When how do you think about the 1108 00:57:20,900 --> 00:57:26,900 scalability of of the Agora chain with you? 1109 00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:32,500 I mean, let's say I guess is maybe different ways of looking 1110 00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:35,500 at that but, you know, one on the theorem, right? 1111 00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:37,600 We have like transactions per second. 1112 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,800 Write this like, I guess one way and then let's say, only theorem 1113 00:57:41,900 --> 00:57:44,800 we have like this whether it's 15 or something like that. 1114 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,000 I think Bitcoin is maybe like three or four or something like 1115 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,000 that. I think Cosmos is a couple 1116 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,600 thousand Max. Yeah. 1117 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,100 I mean, yeah, so, how are ya ready? 1118 00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:56,900 See? So you think it's going to be 1119 00:57:56,900 --> 00:57:58,800 like? Like a few thousand that sort of 1120 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,900 a Greek can get up to. So something like I guess. 1121 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,900 I mean they of course few thousands of still like pretty 1122 00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:05,500 great. Right? 1123 00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,800 It's like a hundred times. If it's 100 times you cerium 1124 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,800 scale. That's I mean, it gets you 1125 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,500 somewhere, right? Yeah. 1126 00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:16,400 Yeah, there are multiple answers and and you know, the first 1127 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,300 thing is we really need to measure that we have a load Jen 1128 00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:22,500 tool that is up and running. Mostly they were focusing on 1129 00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:25,100 measuring, you know, does the time get longer per transaction 1130 00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:27,100 because that means we've got storage growing and stuff. 1131 00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:30,000 Like, But will also measure transaction throughput rate. 1132 00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:34,200 Fundamentally. We get, you know, Cosmos 1133 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,600 underneath but we have a bunch of elements that mean we're not 1134 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,700 worried about scaling, right. The hardest thing to scale is 1135 00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:43,800 the number of programmers. That's our main priority and 1136 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,400 even if it was only the speed of ethereum and we could only 1137 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,200 succeed at the scale of a theorem in terms of transactions 1138 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,300 that be a win. If we can get a million more 1139 00:58:52,300 --> 00:58:53,800 programs to be able to program this stuff. 1140 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,400 Right, but but obviously, We want to go way beyond that. 1141 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,800 So the first thing is we're largely agnostic, and the same 1142 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,200 way that if I build a react you I I'm not putting bits on the 1143 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:06,900 screen. I'm just saying here's what the 1144 00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:09,200 HTML should look like knock yourself out, right? 1145 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,000 And now you can have different renderers and different engines. 1146 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:13,900 Rendering that differently with different performance, 1147 00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:17,100 trade-offs, and they all can move forward and improve 1148 00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:20,200 performance straightforwardly. So, you know, there's IBC 1149 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,600 underneath but the jobs we could invoke an invocation is, you 1150 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:27,100 know, he open brand, amm close paren dot deposit, or dot cell. 1151 00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:29,200 An acid close print, you know where? 1152 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,500 And there was, I betting on a particular consensus algorithm 1153 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,300 nowhere, right? I just run that 1154 00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:36,600 deterministically on a bunch of machines. 1155 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,900 They agree on what happened and we go forward so we can migrate 1156 00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:44,300 to hot stuff. We can migrate to to to to you 1157 00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:47,200 know, a lazy Ledger style thing. If you know, there's a couple of 1158 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,000 interesting ideas in Solana that would give the same acceleration 1159 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,600 to Tender moment. And so, you know, we can stay 1160 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,800 with you. No, get up there with the best 1161 00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,200 of speeds on the platforms and and scale just fine in that 1162 01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:05,800 regard, more importantly because the model is intrinsically, 1163 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,200 async we will be able to and this would end up using the 1164 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,200 shared security and a few other things from Cosmos, right? 1165 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,200 Stand up an entirely new set of validators for an Agora to 1166 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,300 that's running the same model staked with the same build 1167 01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:25,900 token, using the same run out of the same mint, but it's got 1168 01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:28,000 different contracts and now you've got Twice the performance 1169 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,700 Rachel. A big question for any 1170 01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:34,200 blockchain is if I add a machine do I add scaling, do I add 1171 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,900 capacity and you know in Cosmos as it currently is? 1172 01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:41,100 No, you don't you add Assurance, you add to the voting set but 1173 01:00:41,100 --> 01:00:42,900 you don't add capacity. Right? 1174 01:00:42,900 --> 01:00:45,500 There are a few architects who will lead to add capacity 1175 01:00:45,700 --> 01:00:47,600 fundamentally. We all need to get to one of 1176 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,900 those agaric. Has a low-hanging fruit version. 1177 01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:54,200 Of one of those will be able to scale horizontally with some, 1178 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,000 you know, cost of having multiple validator. 1179 01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,300 SATs but that's fine. I mean it'll it'll be shared 1180 01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:01,500 validators. It just means that that chorus 1181 01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:06,600 one will have to deploy another machine to run a gorg to, but it 1182 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,000 looks uniform from a programming computational point of view. 1183 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,200 So there's no change to the contracts, right? 1184 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,200 The the bid here that you know, the auction here that's running 1185 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,700 with a with a contract that is that is making a bid on 1186 01:01:18,700 --> 01:01:20,200 something on behalf of their user. 1187 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,900 You know, there's a link to the issue is whether you're closer 1188 01:01:22,900 --> 01:01:26,200 whether you're far but it's a you know to block latency issue 1189 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,200 rather than 20 minutes, waiting for proof, or proof of work to 1190 01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,200 finish or rather than 0. This simple model that had, you 1191 01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,000 know, simple, you know, Global locks across the entire 1192 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:38,700 universe. Now, I've broken it and I'm 1193 01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:42,300 doing sharding but I'm trying to keep the simple model and oh my 1194 01:01:42,300 --> 01:01:46,100 God, never mind, right? Yeah, that's sort of the the the 1195 01:01:46,500 --> 01:01:52,500 Jeep atomicity but have sharding model is is not how large scale 1196 01:01:52,500 --> 01:01:54,000 distributed systems have succeeded. 1197 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,000 Previously doesn't mean there isn't cool research there. 1198 01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:58,500 And it will certainly be interesting to see what they 1199 01:01:58,500 --> 01:02:00,400 come up with. But we already know how to do 1200 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,600 how to scale systems. Let's use that knowledge first, 1201 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,800 you know, and and and and and we can get real scalability out of 1202 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,000 that. Yeah. 1203 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:08,400 Yeah. I know. 1204 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,200 I agree. I think that's definitely want 1205 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:14,500 to stay, like, amazing Transit. He's had so many calls. 1206 01:02:14,500 --> 01:02:16,800 Mostly. It's just, it's just so simple 1207 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,600 that you have, like one chain and okay, gets full and you just 1208 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,500 like, add another chain. And it's like, I mean, that's a 1209 01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:27,000 days like, you know, you know, for sure that's gonna work. 1210 01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,300 Crank and you know, for sure that like, yeah, I mean you 1211 01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:37,700 could do it go with 100, right? And then you are like at you do 1212 01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:41,600 you have like a chief tries a huge scale Improvement. 1213 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:47,000 Whereas if you can cerium well the amount of complexity and 1214 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,400 research and work that goes into scaling that sister is just 1215 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:56,900 insane and and you know, so far with no success. 1216 01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:03,400 I mean if you if you if you don't count lay your to stuff 1217 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,900 right that I guess which I do. I mean that's a scaling 1218 01:03:05,900 --> 01:03:08,200 technique that we'd be able to use particularly. 1219 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,600 If you could do zero knowledge, stuff, love that and zero 1220 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:16,100 knowledge is one of the magical ways to get much higher scaling. 1221 01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,300 So I talked about the low-hanging fruit scaling that, 1222 01:03:18,300 --> 01:03:20,700 you know, we probably won't do this here, but we could do these 1223 01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:22,400 here, right? We know how to do that. 1224 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,200 That's straightforward. Engineering, all that sort of 1225 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:25,900 stuff, and it gets you Cloud level scaling. 1226 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,800 So, if I have Thousand machines while it's 100 per Block Chain. 1227 01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:33,700 So, that means I've got 100 x. The current 10,000, is that 100 1228 01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:34,800 times 100? I don't know, something like 1229 01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,100 that, right? You know, that that means I've 1230 01:03:36,100 --> 01:03:40,500 got 100 x ^ of any current, you know, scaling of the transaction 1231 01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:42,100 rate on the blockchain. That's pretty cool. 1232 01:03:42,100 --> 01:03:44,500 Well, I'm does law means maybe it's 90 x rather than 100 1233 01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:47,100 actually, but with zero knowledge stuff. 1234 01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,900 If I can run a machine that's going to produce a proof that it 1235 01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:54,300 correctly executed things. And now that proof can be can be 1236 01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:57,000 can be verified in in order one time. 1237 01:03:57,100 --> 01:03:59,000 I'm now if I add one more machine. 1238 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,600 I've got one more machine out there proving a different 1239 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,100 computation. So I've got exactly horizontal 1240 01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:06,100 scaling. The more machines. 1241 01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:09,600 I add, the more compute I can do and I'm rolling them all up into 1242 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,600 one chain, that's validating the, the snarks that those 1243 01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,200 things acted correctly. We're not, that's a research 1244 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,000 problem still and you know and you know Z cast was one of our 1245 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,300 first Founders or first funders and we're certainly interested 1246 01:04:21,300 --> 01:04:24,100 in that line of research. It's being driven partly by you 1247 01:04:24,100 --> 01:04:27,400 know, do the same thing for the evm, but it turns out the Shoot 1248 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,400 engine may actually be easier to do than the evm, so we'll see. 1249 01:04:31,500 --> 01:04:33,300 But that's not this year. That's future. 1250 01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:40,300 Yeah, maybe maybe sort of, you know, final topic that we could 1251 01:04:40,300 --> 01:04:43,000 like touch on a little bit. I mean, we talked a lot about 1252 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:48,400 like, you know, gorik as is environment to develop smart 1253 01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,900 contract in and they go work as this Block Chain, you know, 1254 01:04:51,900 --> 01:04:56,300 there will be like, a way to like deliver applications built 1255 01:04:56,300 --> 01:04:57,900 on that. Platform. 1256 01:04:58,900 --> 01:05:04,700 But do gory also has, you know, build a bunch of other kind of 1257 01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:08,600 components know, and, and sort of these economic. 1258 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,100 It's like it's also an economic system. 1259 01:05:11,500 --> 01:05:14,000 Like, first of all, like, why did you choose to do that? 1260 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,800 Right now? Just say, like, oh, it's smart 1261 01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:19,300 contract chain and, you know, people can build whatever they 1262 01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:25,400 want on there. Because well, a couple of 1263 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,100 different reasons, but but the big part is we want to enable an 1264 01:05:29,100 --> 01:05:31,700 economy of cooperating business. We want to enable, you know, the 1265 01:05:31,700 --> 01:05:35,800 explosion of D Phi. And and here we have a bunch of 1266 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,300 Economics economists that are near the project or working at 1267 01:05:39,300 --> 01:05:40,600 the project or advisor, whatever. 1268 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:47,400 And one of the observations is is, you know, economies having a 1269 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,100 stable token, having a stable currency is Greece. 1270 01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,800 To the wheels of an economy, right? 1271 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,400 It removes a big bunch of friction. 1272 01:05:55,900 --> 01:05:59,200 And in particular, for example, let's talk about gas prices, 1273 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,200 right? In etherium, you're paying eith 1274 01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,700 for execution. But execution is really like 1275 01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:07,800 your postage bill or your rent. And so it's the equivalent of 1276 01:06:07,808 --> 01:06:09,700 you're paying Apple shares for your rent. 1277 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,200 Now you can do that, right? But it's not great from an 1278 01:06:14,207 --> 01:06:17,800 economic efficiency point of view because now you can't 1279 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,900 compare his your rent. Next month, more than your This 1280 01:06:20,900 --> 01:06:23,000 month because the same number of Apple shares her name to check 1281 01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:23,800 it out. We'll go up. 1282 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:25,100 Right? Or is there a hedge? 1283 01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:26,800 Did it maybe do a distribution in the middle? 1284 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,300 So it's even though it's more Apple shares. 1285 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:31,200 Its kind of even you know, it's like hey, you know, why are you 1286 01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,000 thinking about that? If you just paid your rent and 1287 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,600 dollars, you can tell you're paying the same rent next month 1288 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:37,400 or they raised the rent by five percent, right? 1289 01:06:38,300 --> 01:06:42,900 And so, so businesses shouldn't need to deal with that crap. 1290 01:06:42,900 --> 01:06:46,100 And it prevents certain kinds of innovation and eliminates 1291 01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:52,000 certain kinds of very useful. Comic activities and services 1292 01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,400 that people can provide. And so if we want, you know, 1293 01:06:54,400 --> 01:07:00,100 when when node.js come out or npm when react came out, people 1294 01:07:00,100 --> 01:07:03,200 could innovate quickly with these components produce 1295 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:04,400 something that solve their problem. 1296 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:05,900 And then they had a place to deploy it. 1297 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,700 Well, we needed a place, and aetherium is a place to deploy 1298 01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:11,600 smart contracts. It just has these intrinsic 1299 01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,800 problems that are one of the things that we are building a 1300 01:07:14,808 --> 01:07:17,000 different place for. And so we needed something to be 1301 01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,100 a place. The question is, how is gas paid 1302 01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:23,300 for well. Again, if we were paying with 1303 01:07:23,300 --> 01:07:26,800 build, then we've got this problem of the token that you're 1304 01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,300 trying to spend for your your gas. 1305 01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:32,300 And your postage is speculative. So people will hoard it. 1306 01:07:32,300 --> 01:07:35,100 You'll have it be very volatile to be incentives to increase, 1307 01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:38,300 you know, the, the, how much I can charge all these kinds of 1308 01:07:38,308 --> 01:07:41,400 things. And if we just had a stable 1309 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,200 tokens, don't have to be 100%. Stable, doesn't have to be fed 1310 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:45,700 to any particular thing. It just has to be low 1311 01:07:45,700 --> 01:07:48,300 volatility. Now, suddenly, I could compare 1312 01:07:48,300 --> 01:07:51,700 today's cost with tomorrow's costs and so Actually charged 1313 01:07:51,700 --> 01:07:56,200 our gas in terms of that stable token, which means it had to 1314 01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,300 exist in order to launch the platform, but we believe that 1315 01:07:59,300 --> 01:08:03,600 the, that the positive impact of the smooth integration and plug 1316 01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,300 ability of components as a result. 1317 01:08:05,300 --> 01:08:08,300 By removing that, friction will be worth that effort. 1318 01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:12,400 Additionally. We wanted there to not be that 1319 01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,700 that, you know, they're sort of these intrinsic misalignments in 1320 01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:18,600 the model of paying a speculative token both that now, 1321 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,600 some people want to play games with the price or they want to 1322 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,700 bid it up or the markets changing their bidding it down 1323 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,500 and that impacts the ability to actually get anything which we 1324 01:08:26,500 --> 01:08:29,500 know from aetherium. We know from from other chains 1325 01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:31,700 that aren't as expensive, but you can start to see these bad, 1326 01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:36,700 these band Dynamics and the architecture of ethereum. 1327 01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:40,899 And other chains that the drive from, it are such that the only 1328 01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:43,200 way that people actually operating the network, get 1329 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,300 rewarded or increase their reward is, if they raised the 1330 01:08:46,300 --> 01:08:48,899 rent, you know, they're the slumlord and you're trying to 1331 01:08:48,899 --> 01:08:50,700 start a startup business inside of your 10. 1332 01:08:50,899 --> 01:08:52,800 And right? And they're raising the rent. 1333 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:54,399 The only way they can extract value. 1334 01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,500 And so if they see someone making a bunch of money, they 1335 01:08:56,500 --> 01:09:00,800 raised the rent and we've seen that Dynamic and ethereum where, 1336 01:09:00,899 --> 01:09:04,100 you know, the landlord's, the miners resist things, that would 1337 01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:08,500 improve the environment, improve the economy, but that would 1338 01:09:08,500 --> 01:09:10,200 result in them getting less rents. 1339 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,200 And so their incentive is, you know, raise the rent. 1340 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:14,800 It's like it's like, you know the way you're going to grow the 1341 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,600 economy is by giving rewards for more traffic on the freeway, 1342 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:19,700 right. More traffic on the freeway is 1343 01:09:19,700 --> 01:09:21,300 not a goal. It's a Side effect. 1344 01:09:21,300 --> 01:09:23,600 And you'd like, people incentivize to not have that 1345 01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,399 happen, you know, you'd like more business with less traffic. 1346 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,899 Okay. So we hate we take a the stable 1347 01:09:29,899 --> 01:09:32,800 token as what we pay for gas. And that does not go to the 1348 01:09:32,808 --> 01:09:34,600 validators. It goes into a pool that help 1349 01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,899 stabilize the currency that helps ensure the security of the 1350 01:09:37,907 --> 01:09:40,000 system. It's not the reward validator. 1351 01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:43,700 So the validators don't have a reason to drive up the prices 1352 01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:45,700 indeed. They have reasons to lower the 1353 01:09:45,700 --> 01:09:49,000 prices to enable their be more economic activity because all 1354 01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:50,700 the rewards to stagers and validators. 1355 01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:55,200 Come from the economic activity come from the fees for trading 1356 01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,300 in the mmm, the fees for borrowing run. 1357 01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,200 That's what drives the economy and its scales with the amount 1358 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,300 of economic activity on the system. 1359 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,100 And so now validators have incentive to grow the economic 1360 01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:09,900 activity on the system. And so those things mean it you 1361 01:10:09,900 --> 01:10:13,100 really want defy intrinsic to the entire stack and that was a 1362 01:10:13,108 --> 01:10:16,400 reason to do a separate chain basically and we look very 1363 01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,400 closely at and eventually we will enable the computational 1364 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,300 model on other chains. Getting it so that it can ramp 1365 01:10:22,300 --> 01:10:25,700 economically efficiently is, is going to be a big useful value. 1366 01:10:26,700 --> 01:10:30,600 So, the key thing, you know, so are staking token is build BLD. 1367 01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,300 The stable token is run. Are you in? 1368 01:10:34,700 --> 01:10:37,100 And the interesting observation is given that. 1369 01:10:37,100 --> 01:10:40,200 We launched connected with IBC, which is always the intention. 1370 01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:44,600 We launched in this in this, you know, interchain ecosystem that 1371 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:48,400 75 billion dollars worth of assets that cannot currently be 1372 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:52,700 used as collateral for a stable. And and what that means, you 1373 01:10:52,700 --> 01:10:55,800 know, and and so. So I'm really excited about the 1374 01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:00,600 first launch where our first use case for the platform is exactly 1375 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,800 those contracts. You just mentioned where that 1376 01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,200 stable token. We need for our execution is 1377 01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:09,200 also something that's valuable to people that want a stable 1378 01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:14,000 token to trade on osmosis or as part of some injective smart 1379 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,500 contract or you know or through axle or whatever. 1380 01:11:16,500 --> 01:11:20,800 It is all of these, you know, all of these sir. 1381 01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,700 Says can get value by having something with a more 1382 01:11:24,700 --> 01:11:29,800 predictable value. But, you know, in the design of 1383 01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,000 the Run architecture is envisioned, they can do. 1384 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,600 So we're their asset that they are producing, could be used as 1385 01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,500 collateral, assuming the community agrees could be used 1386 01:11:38,500 --> 01:11:41,500 as collateral for their loan. So it's not you got to buy in to 1387 01:11:41,500 --> 01:11:44,600 build use build, get run used run as a stable coin, so that 1388 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,200 your chain is boosting our chain. 1389 01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:49,100 It's, you know, you got a bunch of atoms already. 1390 01:11:49,300 --> 01:11:50,800 You know that you you and you want. 1391 01:11:50,900 --> 01:11:53,900 Be able to leverage them into D Phi on some other platform. 1392 01:11:54,100 --> 01:11:56,700 Bring them over to the Run protocol on a cork borrows from 1393 01:11:56,700 --> 01:11:58,600 run against it. Take it over IBC to that other 1394 01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,600 chain, do your thing. And so, we're really excited 1395 01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,800 about the Run protocol coming out and the extent to, which it 1396 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:08,100 ends up being a community back. Community-run stable token for 1397 01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:09,700 the broader interchain community. 1398 01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:13,600 So that's kind of the the the first use case and it just you 1399 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,700 know, it burgeon from the interest and input and feedback 1400 01:12:17,700 --> 01:12:19,900 that we got from. In this particular case the 1401 01:12:19,900 --> 01:12:22,500 Lisbon Cosmo first. For instance, and and other 1402 01:12:22,700 --> 01:12:25,400 other activity since then. So so we're very excited about 1403 01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:27,000 that. So I wanted to make sure we hit 1404 01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,500 on that because that will be coming out in you know, the next 1405 01:12:29,500 --> 01:12:31,100 quarter or so. Okay. 1406 01:12:31,100 --> 01:12:33,000 Yeah, so it's speaking about timelines. 1407 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,900 I mean, the maintenance life now, but like what are what are 1408 01:12:36,900 --> 01:12:41,700 the major milestones and you're welcome know? 1409 01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,500 What can people look forward to? Okay. 1410 01:12:44,500 --> 01:12:46,500 So yes mean, that 0 went out in November. 1411 01:12:47,700 --> 01:12:51,500 We had a public sale at the very end of December, which people 1412 01:12:51,500 --> 01:12:54,600 may not have noticed. We're very excited about that. 1413 01:12:55,100 --> 01:12:59,200 And so now, we are starting to put together. 1414 01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:03,700 You know, we're working on. We've been doing a bunch of 1415 01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:06,600 security Audits, and Security reviews, and purple, team 1416 01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,300 attacks, and various things to harden, various parts of the 1417 01:13:09,300 --> 01:13:11,200 system. And we're finishing up all of 1418 01:13:11,208 --> 01:13:14,300 those smart contracts. So the, you know, the One 1419 01:13:14,300 --> 01:13:17,500 protocol has a vault system. It has a name m, it has 1420 01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:23,600 something where you can, you can get run versus your steak build 1421 01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,400 and you know, I be seeing a gration. 1422 01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:26,900 All those pieces. So we're working on finishing 1423 01:13:26,900 --> 01:13:28,800 those up. The goal is to ship that in the 1424 01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,500 next quarter or so, you know, March would be great. 1425 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,400 You know, we just were really excited. 1426 01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:35,900 We just hired a head of engineering. 1427 01:13:36,100 --> 01:13:38,800 And so, you know, in the next couple of days, I'll get a much 1428 01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,500 firmer schedule from him and we'll be able to talk more dates 1429 01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:45,100 but soon, you know, so, so, Sooner now than ever before. 1430 01:13:45,100 --> 01:13:47,200 So in the next couple of months, we will roll out the Run 1431 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,800 protocol for IBC and for the energy and community, and then 1432 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,100 we will go into phase two of Maintenance Phase 2 of Maine. 1433 01:13:54,100 --> 01:13:58,000 Net is where some set of people that were working with and we 1434 01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,800 are working with some other teams that are not focused 1435 01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,500 around the Run protocol, you know, we'll be building on top 1436 01:14:03,500 --> 01:14:06,600 of our smart contract API. They already are, and it's 1437 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:08,500 programmable on our definite now. 1438 01:14:09,100 --> 01:14:11,600 So people can get involved now and we have bounties for them to 1439 01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:14,500 be able to build stuff, but they will, you know that Hackathon 1440 01:14:14,500 --> 01:14:16,400 winners and so forth. We will work with to get 1441 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,500 permission vote to deploy these things. 1442 01:14:18,500 --> 01:14:21,700 So we have a 10 ft contract at some point permission, vote to 1443 01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:24,300 roll out, this nft contract. So, lots of people can easily 1444 01:14:24,300 --> 01:14:26,800 mint and if T's in JavaScript, where they get to write some 1445 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:30,400 JavaScript that customizes, their, you know, their minting 1446 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:31,900 process or rendering or what have you. 1447 01:14:32,100 --> 01:14:35,000 That would be pretty cool, right, you know, so will the 1448 01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:38,100 phase 2 will be permission roll out where it's a chain vote to 1449 01:14:38,100 --> 01:14:41,400 approve deployment or instantiation of smart contracts 1450 01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:46,200 and then phase 3 and And so, so Phase 2 will be, you know, 1451 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:50,600 summer time frame phase three will be, hopefully Q4 and that 1452 01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,300 will be the permissionless and the primary difference are. 1453 01:14:53,300 --> 01:14:55,700 Well, we know some improvements will be making it all the 1454 01:14:55,700 --> 01:15:00,500 various apis. But but but the primary 1455 01:15:00,500 --> 01:15:02,500 difference areas, anyone can publish anything, we can run 1456 01:15:02,500 --> 01:15:05,400 arbitrary code. So we've got more and more 1457 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,300 security audits where one of the things that you get from. 1458 01:15:07,300 --> 01:15:09,400 The security audits are things that need to be fixed. 1459 01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:12,000 Now, for the Run protocol, things that need to be addressed 1460 01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:15,500 before we have arbitrary. Old running on chain, and so 1461 01:15:15,500 --> 01:15:17,600 there's just a lot of, you know, security and Engineering work 1462 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:21,700 that goes towards releasing to unlocking the door and letting 1463 01:15:21,700 --> 01:15:24,200 anybody in. So lots of things we're doing 1464 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:27,700 this year. Yeah, thanks so much for coming 1465 01:15:27,700 --> 01:15:29,700 on. It's been a pleasure to speak 1466 01:15:29,700 --> 01:15:33,600 with you soon, pleasure to like sort of follow along and get 1467 01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:40,000 gorked Ernie and to support it. And, you know, the participating 1468 01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,100 that those are from, the course, one side. 1469 01:15:42,100 --> 01:15:46,200 So yeah, I'm really excited to see, you know, see this play out 1470 01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,300 and see the kind of a great ecosystem and all this work 1471 01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,100 finally coming to life this year. 1472 01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:54,000 Thank you. Thank you. 1473 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,600 Thank you guys for your support, over the years and, and your 1474 01:15:57,700 --> 01:15:59,900 investment in IBC and all that kind of stuff. 1475 01:15:59,900 --> 01:16:03,800 So, so I'm glad you guys are one of our validators and, and I 1476 01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,800 look forward to lots of stuff that we do on Jane together in 1477 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,100 the future. Absolutely cool. 1478 01:16:09,900 --> 01:16:12,300 Right? Then if that thanks so much, 1479 01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:16,100 everyone. Thank you for joining us on this 1480 01:16:16,100 --> 01:16:18,500 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1481 01:16:18,500 --> 01:16:20,500 week. You can find And subscribe to 1482 01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:24,300 the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 1483 01:16:24,300 --> 01:16:26,700 you listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or 1484 01:16:26,700 --> 01:16:29,500 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 1485 01:16:29,500 --> 01:16:32,600 the epicenter podcast. Go to epicenter, .t V /, 1486 01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:34,900 subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and 1487 01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:36,800 listen. And while you're there, be sure 1488 01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,200 to sign up for the newsletter. You get new episodes in your 1489 01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:42,400 inbox as they're released. If you want to interact with us 1490 01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:45,000 guests or other podcast listeners, you can Us on 1491 01:16:45,008 --> 01:16:48,000 Twitter, and please leave us a review on iTunes helps people 1492 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,900 find the show, and we're always happy to read them. 1493 01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,400 But thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.