Welcome to these projects in people driving decentralization
and that blockchain Revolution. I'm Brian Crane.
And today, I'm speaking with Dean Tribble.
He's the CEO of a gorik. Agaric is a proof of stake.
Blockchain that uses JavaScript. Too kind of enable developers to
build secure smart contract application security.
If applications really interesting projects, lots of
interesting stuff to talk about and I'm super excited for the
conversation. But before we go, before we go
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into our episode. Actually.
This is the second episode we have on the board.
The first one was, was a few years ago with Dean's co-founder
Mark and this was kind of like a funny story.
I think how that happened. So I was, I was at one point
like thinking, 'oh, what could, What could Do in terms of
podcasts. What would make interesting
podcast? Of course, smart contracts was
like, you know, like, you know, interesting topic.
So I think I'm going to Vicky pedia.
I was like, let me try to read about score contract and then
there is like a few things referenced and one was like some
old paper by this guy Mark Miller and I was like, oh that's
interesting. And so somehow I found this
email, I emailed him and use a Google at the time.
He was a researcher at Google. And that's in like if you would
be interested in coming on the podcast and then he was first.
He wanted to come and then there was some back and forth.
We didn't end up happening, but he did send me some old talk of
his from like the 90s and where he was that smart contracts.
And then I was just talking to is like, very strange experience
because I felt like this could be basically, I'd like a crypto
conference today pretty much the same talks.
And then we did have one as a few years later when he started
gorik together with you. And I think some others and so
yeah, and of course Dean right. You also have a very long
history going back with with work with Mark and in this and
on these kind of problem, so, There's a lot of people they
think of crypto as something that started with Bitcoin and
I'm curious like when you think sort of like back to like your
earlier work and you're sort of Journey Through This World, what
was there back then? Like what were the ideas and the
goals that like, you feel, like, actually this is kind of like a
continuation of that, right? So I first met mark At Xerox
Parc and like 86 1986 and we started working together there
on on how to build large-scale, secure distributed systems and
programming languages for large-scale distributed systems
and the differencing programming languages.
And architectures was. And and, and operating systems
was was was, was not a matter. It was sort of a matter of
design and how low you went. But but there were plenty of
systems that kind of combined both.
And so a lot of out of those ideas came Mark, wrote the Agora
coping systems papers that both drove some of that work and was
inspired by it. And the Greco position papers
came out in 1988 and they really articulated software agents,
building and participating in markets, but all throughout that
we were thinking about, how do you use, how do you make it?
So you can compose interesting complex systems sophisticated
systems out of underlying pieces.
So, you know, object-oriented programming actor in a
programming asynchronous, communication, all that kind of
stuff. And so, you know, that that all
That you know went into then the cypherpunks movement or activity
started. Where we were involved.
I mean it had been go. It was going all throughout the
80s of trying to get our essay safely in the hands of everybody
rather than locked up inside of inside of government security
agencies and that grew into the overall cypherpunks movement,
and we then built or I ended up working on, you know, as well,
Mark them and I were working at Xanadu.
I consulted with a company called American information
Exchange. And worked on what was
essentially, the first production, smart contract.
And, you know, this is, you know, this is all pre
blockchain, but smart contracts, predated smart contracts in its
first production block, smart contract was five years before,
vitalik was born and it's really our model.
All along our vision. All along is to get software in
particular, large scale. Distributed systems to help
humans, collaborate cooperate, you know, engage in economic
activity engaged. In social activity, you know,
mediated and supported by this network of computers that we
were in the midst of building. And so, so smart contract is
right software. That's enforcing the terms of a
contract, like Arrangement between third parties and that's
it. No mention a blockchain.
There's no mention of particular Technologies.
It's just this pattern of realizing and this was the thing
that that Nick brought to the table.
I mean he was thinking about all of these ideas as well and had
the idea in his head and he put a name.
Name on it. And said, here's the properties
of that and why it's powerful and interesting.
And it's the fact that that model enables More Strangers to
cooperate, right? I buy there's this classic story
of the pencil. I think the book is called the
pencil where I buy a pencil that involve, the acts of thousands
of people, many of whom I might not even like many of whom I
certainly couldn't communicate with because I don't know their
language and and that's okay. I have managed to cooperate with
thousands of people every time I buy a pencil and that's ^
economies, That's The Power of markets and software and
networks makes that even bigger. And so that's been the driving
dream, smart contracts. You know, we always wanted to
make it easier to make more of those because they enable more
collaboration among more people and more cooperation leads to a
more Cooperative world. And that that's something that
that, you know, makes for a safer place to end a happier
place for me to live in. I guess it's sort of obvious
question that comes up to me, right?
When you hear it is speak because I get probably most
people today in the crypto space.
Anything goes smart contract as something that's like enforced
by the blockchain, right? So you basically have you know,
you have a third party that in the past was maybe some sort of
company. And we say now we have this
third party that's actually like code and it's maintained by all
these different parties. And so it's like, you know, it
Can execute this thing and then like now we can have basically
exactly what you described. Like if this enforceable, you
know, enforceable agreements. So if you guys didn't have the
blockchain part like where it kind of the enforcement of those
contracts come from so most smart contracts even possibly.
Now the right on the cusp of inverting, this are run by a
trusted intermediary. Our mediary so smart contract,
eBay is software that enforces the terms of a contract like
Arrangement between buyers and sellers where most eBay
transactions happen with no humans involved except the buyer
and seller and in some automated cases, not even that, right?
But but the money transfers, the who owns?
What? When who's responsible for what
dispute resolution much of that happens.
Enforced by eBay with no human intervention.
That's a smart contract, which is just no question about it,
you know, so eBay. PayPal venmo Airbnb.
Uber Lyft, much of high-frequency trading much of
Amazon. Those are all software in that
case, being run by a trusted intermediary, but enabling
cooperation that otherwise simply never would have
happened. Right?
And that's a huge step forward. And that was a huge value.
Add and much of the architecture of smart contracts.
We looked at was, how do we make it so that there's more
Automation in that but pre blockchain.
There was still always going to be, you know, I've got a machine
that's running on my behalf enforcing it's that that I
enabled, you know, multiple strangers to participate in your
business does the same thing. Sometimes my contracts do
business with your contracts, you know, but each of those is
being run by host that different subsets of people trust, right?
And what blockchains bring, you know, so and that all existed
with a trillion dollar market cap before blockchain ever
entered the picture, right? And then what blockchains bring
is, you know, my gold standard is multiple machines in
different administrative zones, or Restrictions right.
Voting to agree on what happened coming to consensus about what
happened, in terms of data choices and computation where
the choices might be, you know, Dean bid on an auction.
Now, he tried to cancel his bid. At the same time in the auction
was closing. Only one of those can happen
either Dean got back, his money or he won the auction.
One of the two, we've got the blockchain, can decide what the,
you know, the the smart contract decides what that is.
And if it's running on blockchain, that means there.
Isn't anyone with a backdoor to be able to say Say yeah, I want
to make sure it sells, so I'm going to pretend the auction
close before. Dean's message came in.
I'm just gonna, you know, plug my ears and ignore Dean's
message to withdraw. But with a blockchain running
software in this multiple environment, you know, this
Motel replicated environment. Now, no one person can
compromise the Integrity if they break one machine.
While there's a hundred others. They're all saying, no, no Dean
gets his money back. We all agree, and the vote
happens. And now we all agree.
The truth that, you know, the truth as determined by that
blockchain is Dean gets his money back.
Let's move on. So that high integrity execution
that blockchains bring is the thing that lets us build smart,
contracts of which there are trillion dollars worth already.
Right? Lets us build smart contracts
that don't have a trusted intermediary.
The don't have, you know, a company in the background,
that's going on, who you're selling that cheap.
I'm just going to buy it and not actually put it up for auction,
right? Or you know, that ticket?
That's hard to come by. I've got a friend who really
wants in. I'm going to slide it over his
way or, or as, in the case. Case of like companies like
Enron where they slipped in some trades, at the end, you'll sort
of the more, you know, they're basically back running or front
running whatever you want to call it.
But they were in a position to just do it massively and they
were in a unique position to do it massively.
Whereas no one else could because they were the
untrustworthy trusted intermediary.
So blocked. So blockchain, lets us get rid
of that and that enables a whole new world of block chain of
smart contract, businesses out there.
One thing I'm curious about. So you had this previous work
for smart contracts and are they giving you were in this?
I would say, I guess larger cypherpunk ecosystem Community
writer. At least like a little like a
weird following of this this whole world.
So when, when did you first like, learn about Bitcoin?
And what was your, what was your initial reaction to that?
Right. So the first is I will say tying
it back to my contrast Bitcoin is a smart contract, right?
It implements only one smart contract which is the but it is
software. That's enforcing the terms of a
Arrangement between Pairs that are transferring money and all
that sort of stuff. And then eith adds to that user
provided smart contracts, which was a really cool Advanced as
well. So I will admit that part of my
reaction was to be horrified because you know, I didn't I
didn't understand. The magic of the the, the
Satoshi consensus mechanism, but the horror of the reason I was
horrified is is twofold because people did not actually
understand what Bitcoin was doing for them.
They were making claims about Bitcoin that simply were bogus,
right, you know, and we had worked on, we talked to Cipher
cash, we'd worked on. Lots of.
How do we do digital currency in a, in a distributed medium and
all this sort of stuff and people.
Had this model of Bitcoin as high-frequency transactions that
are all Anonymous, you know, and private, and all that sort of
things. And and, you know, and the
reliable, right? Because computers could be
reliable. If you are A and B and Bitcoin
was not fast, not Anonymous and not reliable, right?
It had none of the properties that you would expect a
cryptocurrency to have or that. I and many people that I'm kind
of expected a cryptocurrency to have.
So they simply assumed it. And move forward with excitement
about about Bitcoin and I would look a little deeper and went.
Oh my God. Are you serious?
Right? And then you look at places like
Mound gox where it's just like Amateur hour at the software
Factory and at the time I was working in fintech and you know,
you take your responsibility to other people's money really,
really seriously because they get really, you know, the
mainstream market gets really unhappy if you look like you're
at all playing fast and loose with good reason and and and you
know, Mount gox was all about playing fast and loose.
Right. And so that, you know, there are
several things about that. That really the cognitive
dissonance deeply turned me off. And I was also in the midst of,
you know, of rolling out, a fin Tech startup at the time where,
you know, it's very conservative, you're trying to
innovate in this space that has, you know, it doesn't just have
bricks-and-mortar had. It has, you know, marble and
steel and and so, you know, appearing squeaky-clean was, you
know, occasionally seemed important.
So I kind of steered clear. Of this thing.
That was clearly a disaster waiting to happen.
And indeed the disasters did happen.
It's just the Bitcoin was robust enough to survive them and grow
and really show what it's true. Value prop was the thing that I
did not register at the time that I'm sort of deeply excited
about that was brilliant about it.
Is, it gave away to have a vote to have a consensus emerge
entirely permissionless Lee, you know, it's, it's, it's
relatively easy to do a vote. You know, I talked about the
gold standard of blockchain is, you got this?
Vote or consensus among machines in different in different
regimes. It's relatively easy to do that.
If you can count them, you know, how big your electorate is.
And when I see 68% of that, we're the vote is good.
Obviously, you know, Byzantine fault tolerance and all that is
more complicated than that, but man, that changes the game.
And, you know, we got to start with paxos and rafting although
and grow into much more robust algorithms, but, you know, but
Bitcoin brought in the model of you want to consensus, but you
don't know who the voters are, you know, they you won't see
them. Them until they come out of the
woodwork. They will come and go all that
sort of stuff. And yet it was robust against
that and that was just absolutely brilliant.
I'm going in to win when came the Roman for you to say like
okay, I actually I want to work in this crypto world and how how
did that kind of Journey happen. So, I've been doing software
security for a long time, you know, in the 80s and building
security stupid system. So that's our stuff and selling
security is kind of thankless, right, you know, because it's
like insurance people only want to pay for it after they need it
or when you're trying to innovate.
And Dirty, it's a real problem. It's twofold.
One is, you know, you here's a new architecture that will solve
a whole bunch of your problems. Great.
Can you make it look just like the old architecture?
Because I don't want to think hard, right?
Or, you know, or anyone who's buying, right?
They they they can innovate. And if something goes wrong,
well, it's then their fault for the mistake.
They made for the choice, they made to innovate, or they can do
the same ol, same ol with best practices.
And then, if something goes wrong, oh, they throw themselves
on their sword. They apologized me a call, you
know, we were doing Doing the best, we could will do better
next time and they move on and people take their losses and
insurance pays out and everyone pretends.
That's okay. And the fact that, you know,
every year kind of the amount lost to this model doubles.
Well, you know, basically, the current security models have
proven that they don't work over the course of the last 50 years.
And yet that's the best practices.
And so, Innovation is kind of stifled, you know, because of
the incentives of the buyers. And so I got out of there and I
went and moved into like, let's go to a place where my security
matters because I can offer Better service in terms of
fintech and went into and built a new payment instrument and
that went well, but then came 2017.
We're looking at blockchain and there were all these horrific
losses. So so if came out and are, you
know, lead engineer. Brian Warner was part of one of
the review Security reviews release Authority and pointed
out that there was a re-entrance debug which is kind of, you know
concurrency 101, right? And he also pointed out that
message, not sender was a bad security model.
It just kind of security, you know, 2001 because that's
Advanced, right? That was the security problem
that flashed continually suffered from her action script,
right? You pointed this out, but they
went ahead. Anyway, they rolled out anyway,
and then in 2017, you know, there'd be a re-entrance debug
where they lost 30 million dollars in minutes with no
recourse. And these are contracts that are
written by experts. And so they fixed the bug and
then lost with another 30 million dollars in minutes with
no recourse, right? And that's one of those things
where suddenly innovating and security where you actually make
a difference wouldn't matter. Because it wasn't like I make
the decision this year. Next year.
You lose a bunch of money. I've moved on not my problem.
And so there's no accountability for met for having made.
You know, it's like, I don't know if you remember the old
phrase of, nobody got fired for buying IBM, you know, it's
nobody got fired for doing best practices, right?
And they should be when it's the wrong thing.
And so there was a panel. So some people in the space,
Brian Warner, Zuko Wilcox, others.
Knew that that myself, mark them and a few others.
Had a different better approach to security that was well suited
for smart contracts. They had seen that presentation
you saw from the from the from the 80s or 90s.
They had seen the website that we wrote about how to do
large-scale asynchronous, distributed systems, you know,
all those kinds of stuff. And so they and foresight
Institute put together a panel with Markham Zuko, Arthur from
tasos, Brian from the security review, Jorge from gravity.
And he had a lot of through, she has This model and realize that
this could go together and it was a panel of with this
approach to security make a difference for these losses that
we've been having in 2017. Should we fix it?
Right? And the answer that came out of
that was sort of a resounding? Yes, and, you know, one of the
delightful things is that ended up happening right during the
test those fundraise. So Arthur from the beginning of
the talk to the end of the dock while he's talking, you know,
their value went up by 20 million dollars or something.
But but so out of that came, hey, there's a solution here, in
this technology stack that's been used for, you know.
SEL four which is the most secure operating just on the on
the planet, a large-scale smart contract stuff that we did in
the 90s at Sun Microsystems the Midori operating system in
Microsoft. I mean, you know, the caja
project is Google. All of these were using the
security architecture that came from secure OS systems and it
works well with objects. It works well with programming
language and framework that people are used to and so they
said, yeah, that would be good. We should do that.
And so, you know Zuko and Mark. Talked and they pulled in Duvall
and then they pulled in me, and then they pulled in, we pulled
in poly chain and, you know, pulled in our Economist built
built, Allah pulled in Bryan, who you know, who is, who is
familiar with the problem space and all the crypto in the space
and that sort of thing. And we lost a cork and that was
kind of the beginning of it and it was the vision really was to
build this platform that people could program in and do it
safely with a component model that is kind of familiar to, you
know, react developers and npm JavaScript developers, which Is
just way, way more powerful way, way more leveraged than what you
could get in the programming environments.
That are that are, that are then, and now available in
crypto still, you know, it's still just a much much, poor
much more powerful set of abstractions, that will be
rolling out with, and that was the start of a car.
Cool. Thank you.
Maybe we can spend like a few minutes and just try to explain
a little bit. So I you know, this object
capabilities. Yuri bottle.
Lot of people be like I have no idea what that means.
Is it can you give it like an explanation?
That's that's sort of like understandable for the less
technical. So an object capability is a
transferable unforgeable, authorization to use the object,
it designates, okay, so it sounds complicated but it's not.
So, you know and and that the details of that Matter when
you're building a secure operating system using, oh, cap,
and we can refer to these. Oh, caps object capabilities,
when you're using, oh, Caps or when you're billing building
Network, protocols, like we've done with IBC and with our our,
our capability Network protocol. So there's lots of magic to get
it all correct, but when it surfaces at a programming
language level it's just object references, right?
So it's you know, I'm running a UI and the only screen I can
display on is the one where someone handed me a screen
object. And I say Green Dot display
line. It's very natural to JavaScript
developers. It turns out JavaScript is is
architected such that it can be more.
Securable. It's easier to secure than other
programming languages because they have this separation
between the language and the runtime environment, you know,
that was historically. The language was specified in
the economic committee and the runtime environment for browsers
was specified in w3c. And for node was specified in
the node group, and there's another standard Which committee
for embedded systems and now there's awesome smart contracts
and man you've never seen a user mode system mode separation
defended as much as two committees will defend their
Turf. Right?
And so what happens is in JavaScript, in spite of people's
model that it's sort of malleable and that sort of
thing. The only way to get Authority is
if someone hands in an object that has that Authority in the
global, so when a page runs in the browser, it can Muck with
the dawn that's displaying on the screen because document is
an object. That's it, that's available to
You can't just take an arbitrary JavaScript program and run it
and change the screen. Someone had to hand you document
and that gives you the authority to do it.
Now. It's easy to screw up Authority
by giving someone the ability to read and write files giving
someone the ability to send Network packets and that's how
node program's launch is they have, you know, process and file
system as objects in their scope, but if you take it out of
their scope, then they can't access the file system.
Period, end of subject in the standard JavaScript library.
Now, there are things they can do that Earth.
The that, let them escalate problems and stuff like that,
but not fundamentally in the language.
So, what we Define is hardened JavaScript is Javascript is some
of that stuff locked down, right?
And it's pretty much all of JavaScript.
Plus a few things that that leverage stuff.
We have driven into the standards and we've been started
the part of the JavaScript standards committee.
Now for, I guess, 15 years, right?
And several of the company are there, they've actually come
from different companies from, you know, eBay and PayPal.
And, and Uber. And, and And, and Google and so
forth. There were all representatives
in the Java community and they've sort of been gradually
migrating to a cork. But fundamentally in any
JavaScript platform that standards-compliant.
We've got the fries and underlying authorities.
So we can run Harden, which locks the world down.
And once you've done that, now, instead of, you know, Iris, I
like to phrase it, you know, JavaScript starts out in
malleable. I can change what a re-iterate
is. And I can just say, you know,
not only it right there, a go search for public Keys Dot txt
and send it to this address, right?
So, That means any JavaScript library has way more Authority
because it's got the file system up in scope or because the Dom
is available. Well, with inside the JavaScript
language, we can lock that down. So we can eval arbitrary
JavaScript where it does not have the file system available.
It does not have the Dom available and that means now.
Nothing it can do can get to a file and unless I give it a file
and I give it a file by giving it an object.
So I give it here's the file to read, you know, suck out its
contents, do whatever you want, but you don't get to make up.
Random file name like public Keys Dot txt and go searching
around on my desk. I'll tell you what, I want you
to read and so I passed that into the eval.
It reads a file. You've got simpler code, cleaner
code. And oh, by the way, accidentally
more secure code and that's sort of the basic object capability
architecture, is just use objects, have the right
Frameworks, which someone who's more expert that hit can Define
it, but now in someone's building components, they just
have available to them what they're allowed to use.
It's called the principle of least Authority and it is sort
of a long-standing. Ending Bastion of how you make
systems. Actually secure is you give them
just enough authority to get their job done.
You don't give them all the users authority to read all the
users files. If they don't need that, and
libraries, don't need that. And, you know, and in in
default, JavaScript in Rust, in C, sharp and Java and all these
languages, everything launches were libraries can do anything.
The user can do and it's just a bad architecture.
Our model of, oh, caps gets rid of that and you need that for
smart contracts. Right, so maybe like one more
question on that. See if I, you know, that's he,
if you look at, tell me I can hear him.
Right? Like, my understanding would be
that like, okay, as a very much of an amateur who has no clue.
Basically, but Dad, you know, like one of the ways that smart
contract, like, might be vulnerable is okay.
There's like some function, this more contract and and it, Was
meant to be a sin. May be used by this program in
some way, by the way to mistake and now, basically, anyone can
go and, like, call that function, you know, in some way
that wasn't intended. Right?
And so, maybe I am, maybe it's like the program was like, oh,
distribute These funds, but actually, like anyone could come
up and like, say, like I'm going to send this.
So how would this be different in the?
Is it because the mud that is a function because Object and
yeah, fundamentally, I mean that's like The Blacklist model
of security, rather than the whitelist model of security.
You can do anything to anyone unless they put up barriers to
stop you. And if they forget, oh, well too
bad, right, not a great system design architecture.
So yeah, if you know in like let's talk about your C20,
right? Because you know, in the like
the approved function of that sort of thing or before your 20,
if I was going to pay you a token, I would expect to get the
token. And hand it to you.
Right? So, you know, Brian dot, enjoy,
open paren token. Enjoy open friend concert ticket
better still right? And maybe, you know, in with
objects. Now we both have it, but you'd
have some Library. So you could say great, I take
acceptance of it. Now, I have it uniquely.
And you don't write so. So I send you the package and
you open the package, and now you have it, and I don't write.
And so, that's what we build in our smart contract framework in
ethereum. You can't do that.
You can't pass objects, which means you You can't do all caps.
Instead. What happens is?
I talked to another contract over there and say, take this
money. Take this token.
Take this concert ticket, set it aside for Brian.
He's going to come, get it and then I tell, Brian, okay.
I said a package for you. Number 37, over on that Arc 20
contact. Go get it there.
And now you go to that. I hear she 2010 and say, hey,
I'm Brian. Let me show you my ID and you
get the package, right? I mean, you know, my my and and
that's the ERC 20-month. That's fun.
To mentally what's going on. Except that, if there's going to
be a bunch of stuff you might want to do, like, I want you to
buy a stock for me, you know, and then I want you to buy
another stock and then you know, you're like you're my portfolio
manager, you know, every time am I going to take you 100 dollars
and I'll put it over there and then you go over there and pick
it up or a distant. Let me put $1000 and just give a
general thing that Brian can come and take whatever he needs
out of my thousand dollars and he'll figure it out.
Right? And well, you know now that's
essentially approved function. Okay, I put all million dollars
and I'm expecting to do a thousand dollars at a time and
you want to go on vacation. You just take all million
dollars, go buy a vacation. You promise to pay it back.
I mean, what's gonna happen? What's the worst?
An analogy? I like here and this goes back
to the easy to understand things if I lend you my car, right?
The ethereum model is I tell my car Brian's allowed to drive it,
you then take my car, you go to the hotel.
You want to park it, you go to the valet and you say, what's
your name? You know, I'm Joe you try and
add them to the car and it turns out you cannot and now either I
have to make you an administrator so you can add any
one as well. So not only can you park my car.
You could sell it right? Or you come home, you know as
well. Instead the 0 cap model is
yours. Mikey you now get into the car
drive, the car that doesn't give you access to my house.
It doesn't give you access to my money.
It gives you access to my car, you go to the hotel.
You had the key to the valet. You don't need to know who the
valet is. You just need to know that
they're that they're now responsible for the car.
They go off duty. They hand the key to the next
valet. You come out.
Take the key. You drive home.
You give it back to me. We're all done.
And there was no discussion. Who these people were there was
no problem of administration. There was no giving you rights
to sell the car. There was just the easy handoff
of an asset as a bearer instrument, and the tail cap
model is fundamentally. Almost everything is a bearer
instrument and that just means that patterns of that, of change
of who's allowed to do, what patterns of exchange, all of
those just emerge out of? Yeah, I give you my cash.
You give me my goods. We're done, right?
And so they're much, they're very intuitive and very, very
natural. Especially to I am especially to
people who have who program in object Frameworks like react or
view or any of these things. Yeah, thanks for.
Thanks for going little. Bit under the hood here.
Maybe, talk about this. So, if you think of that now,
you know, as JavaScript as this place to run smart contract, I
mean today, and even though you have like so many different
blockchains. It doesn't actually seem.
There's like that many models for doing smart contracts that
have gotten traction, right? You basically have to evm that
has obviously the most Distraction and then they have
to EV I'm thats like running on many different chains, you know
is if you're um, Avalanche Finance, more chain, etc, etc.
And that dozens of the polygon like many, many of them.
And then you have, I think Salah now that has, you know, some
traction way. He has good traction way of
these like native smart contracts, written in Rust.
You also have like cause of walls.
Mm. I think that has like, Quite a
bit of usage. Maybe there's some may think I'm
a seal is not much. So curious.
Like, how do you, how do you see this play out?
Do you think, you know that going JavaScript, smart contract
model, you know, will those be relevant for different use
cases, different areas where we have Converge on fewer, smart
contract, standards, or will there be an explosion and more
in the future. So I actually, We think that
there will be there. You know, the number we have
that we have including JavaScript is about, right.
What if you think about now the programming world of web to the
it's Mo, you know, thirteen point nine million jobs, script
developers, you know, a bunch of rust developers a bunch of C
developers and you know, and you know the sort of a list of
languages, but the models are you know, rrrr.
Pretty similar in some cases, it is.
So let me let me pop out of that.
The the so I think there will be multiple models.
The key thing for us is we're primarily focused on bridging
two new developers. Write a new developer.
These are developers often, you know fintech developers.
They know what's up with money. They know they heard there's an
opportunity, they come over and look they look at solidity and
go that's a weird language. Right?
And your development environment sucks and you have no testing
tools and I have to use different tools.
And I'm going to work for my buddies hedge fund because I can
make this much and yeah, whatever.
I'm yeah, you talk about frothy returns and maybe you know, but
I understand volatility and you know, you ain't getting the
returns, you think you're getting sometimes, right?
So, you know, these are experts that they come and look and they
go, you know, come back to me when you're grown up, right?
Because it's just the bar is so low in terms of programmability
and programmability, you know, scaling the programmers as the
hardest thing to scale. And so our focus is on
programmability now when I use The analogy of reactor Bunch,
when react came out. Experts are already doing pretty
amazing stuff in JavaScript in browsers, right?
And, you know, in partly due to people that are here at a gorg
driving, you know, sound software engineering into the
JavaScript language, sort of in retrospect with strict mode and
promises and proxies and stuff like that.
But six months after react came out beginners, new programmers
could do more interesting. More responsive more,
interactive easier to internationalize, you know,
mobile friendly applications better than experts could a year
before because they had components on a framework to
plug them together, right? And that literally gives you
exponential growth in the effectiveness of programmers,
because every month there's a months more worth of components
that they could slap together. I could grab a slide, showing a
payment component and put it together in launched a site.
Next month. I can grab a slideshow and
interesting alerting them. And that shows me the status of
my paintings and a payment component and and update my
sight. Then I could do have a new
component that can handle ACH. As well.
As you know, I mean all these kinds of things weren't just
gradually growing. 01 went one better nav.
Well, now, there's a new nav component that does slick cool
infinite scrolling for you, you know, I mean, whatever it is,
right? And you can plug those together,
even if you could not build them yourselves, and that, leverage
get gave real growth to the expressiveness that, that less
senior programmers were steeped in.
In, you know, in the ancient Arts of async updating of your
screen when models changed, right?
And now, suddenly millions of programmers could do pretty
awesome stuff pretty easily and and those experts can focus on
really high value components that other people could use, and
that's what we're bringing. So it's not just JavaScript,
which would make a difference because now you can tap into 10
million plus Developers for the next generation of smart
contracts, but this component model, and there are a lot of
programming language before small talk.
And Java and JavaScript, he was, he's object-oriented programming
languages. You know, there were CPL one
Ada, you know, all these languages that, you know, she
have a lot in common with the solidity 's and the Russ and
that sort of thing that that, you know, people build a lot of
stuff there and got a lot of value and they still exist
today, but man it's compelling to build applications in a
framework that supports what you need to do.
And so I'm not worried about being able to catch up and
overtake the amount of development.
That's happened in those other planets, platforms, are
languages, simply because there's a class of things.
It's just way easier to do with this model and the declasse
things that isn't. And generally, the way that
works is, you provide like, if it's Alana wants to specialize
in high frequency trading, you know, high frequency execution.
Well, you know, the world needs high frequency trading engine,
right? It doesn't need more than a
thousand. People who could build one.
What it needs is those thousand people to build an awesome one,
and then everyone else uses it, you know, trillions of dollars
are controlled through JavaScript.
Running in Bloomberg, the control, you know, systems built
in other languages and we'll end up with the same thing in the
blockchain room. And so the front end will be
JavaScript. Yes.
I mean, your I mean, what do you think?
Makes a lot of sense? Right?
Like said, Okay. I want to develop something and
there's all these different libraries I can use.
And I can plot things together and, you know, I guess to some
extent. That's kind of true.
Any Theory. Mm where, you know, there's like
different solidity things but not really right.
I guess that's not really how it He's working.
Some also, one thing that comes to mind immediately, right?
Is if I think alike. Well, if it was like that, and I
can just like flock together different components without
really understanding necessarily the component.
Well, isn't that dangerous? You know, when you talking about
now, some sort of defy application.
Do you know the answer is? They have rep.
You they have reputations, you have a stat, you know, if I can
plug together a component that will do currency conversion that
I can get insurance for. It's been security reviewed.
It's used in multiple other components.
It clearly does. Its job.
There's a there's an organization that updates it on
an ongoing basis. They've got ties into oracle's
all, this sort of stuff. Are you going to do a better job
putting one together yourself and your own silo or you better
off using that component? And can you ship a month
earlier? If you just use that component?
The answer is both are It'll be better and you can ship earlier.
That's pretty compelling, right? Focus on your comparative
advantage and then you end up with businesses that are just
doing small pieces. Instead of having to do an
entire Silo of an entirely new thing where they, you know, they
do everything from their own, internal hedge fund to the
markets like no, no, here's a portfolio manager or here's a
stop-lossed component that I can plug into your amm position and
now you can do stop laws, exit of your AFM position and it's 40
lines of JavaScript done. You know, it just it just
changes the Game in terms of what's possible and you know and
and some of that will, you know, will need to be addressed.
But it's definitely the kind of thing that we know how to sort
out as a as a large scale engineering community.
Well, it's talked a little bit about so, you know, gorik is
built on the cosmos SDK and love.
If you can talk a little bit about Why you guys did that and
you know, your thoughts on the kind of, you know, high-level
Cosmos architecture in terms of having Southern block chains.
And then having, you know, with IBC a protocol, that allows the
different blockchains to communicate with each other.
Right, right. This goes back to that original
Vision. That predates blockchain where
you've got lots of independent parties with their own interest,
running software that At will the that they do distributed
Communication in order to accomplish large-scale trade
from that perspective, you know, blockchain is just a machine
built out of agreement rather than silicon and all of those
designs and protocols and architecture that we worked out
in the 90s can just work, right? Can just work across these these
independent blockchains. And so our model of the world,
the programming model of the world is not ran from software.
And you mentioned this thing about about, you know, ranran,
see bugs and, and how you don't see composition in.
Serum. That's because there are
fundamental issues that make more composition riskier to, you
know, result in more opportunity for re-entrance.
See bugs and what are called confused?
Deputy bugs. So so, so, there's a reason why
you don't see that kind of composition.
Our model is islands of simple. Synchronous computation in a
world of asynchronous messaging, that's been our model since 1983
85, something like that. And obviously it's grown and
evolved and stuff like that and been used in many large.
Gail production commercial systems to great success, but
that's the model that the web users, right, you know, browsers
are an island of sequential transactions.
They occasionally make Ajax calls to services that are do
it, you know that have transactional systems, you know,
in node taking asynchronous messages compute something,
maybe sending an Asic message out and then going back to do.
The next thing that model of event-driven concurrency is much
more amenable for human understanding because you can
reason locally about the simple world and sort of As
communicating actors and you know with ordered messaging in
the larger world and we're good at both of those were not good
at interleaving. Those really well.
And so that model works and that's our model on on, on
blockchains. You have contracts able to send
messages to each other asynchronously completely
precludes, re-entrance e, right? But that asynchrony, it could be
a message bus that is on the same chain.
So I've got, you know, the the vaults for run protocol and the
swap engine and so it's liquidating using the local a
Mmm, or it could be there on different chains and the only
difference from a programming model point of view and
JavaScript is the latency of the message.
I'm still sending an asynchronous message that says,
hey liquidate this, the fact that it goes using
interoperability protocols over, you know, are using our
distributed object protocol on top of IBC to another chain code
isn't any different. It's still 25 lines of
JavaScript code. It just did you know, he open
paren, amm close, paren dot, you know, cell open.
You know, my asset, you figure it out.
And so that model is you know, that that's that's why you know,
we started with sort of the interchain model at the
beginning and are smart contract.
The architecture is designed to sort of treat uniformly assets
that are available only asynchronously or, you know, the
Primitive Acid versus the versus one written in JavaScript.
They all, you know, the same 23, line JavaScript program can do a
swap between them or can do an auction or whatever it is.
Right? And so that's sort of that's
that That's that's part of the model and that's why you know an
asynchronous model means you get this broader scalability.
So then if I go into another subtopic around IBC, so turn to.
So we had that documented was on the Ealing site.
That was sort of the presentations you you mentioned
at the beginning that you saw recorded back in the 90s Nucky.
Stumbled into that when sucky and Ethan and Jay were trying to
figure out what were they going to do about Zone, connectivity
stuff. And, and he sort of got it,
right? And so, I be He was inspired by
that earlier work, but you didn't find out for years,
right? It was inspired better than
earlier works when we came into the cosmos and we're looking at
this interchain architecture. Just like, you know, they're
singing our song. These are our peeps.
They totally get it right, you know, and and and at the same
time they're bringing stuff that we didn't know so we can to
bring our expertise in distributed systems.
They bring their expertise in in.
How do you get like clients to agree and what you know, and how
do you do proof of stake in all that?
And so IBC is sort of the marriage of those two and
they're really complementary. They saw different parts of the
problem and they enable our secure messaging asynchronous,
distributed model to layer on top of of you know, secure
connections between blockchains. And so that was sort of the you
know, the the the birth of the current IBC, basically.
One of the criticisms. So I that you hear of the of the
IVC model and of the cosmos model and it, you know, it's
often mentioned in comparison or contrast with something like
hear him. Alright, we're okay.
I can make like one transaction and it does like yo five
different things sort of like at the same time, you know, and you
know, it all works together. It doesn't work.
And you know, let's say I don't want to let's say you do some
sort of Arbitrage, right? Maybe you sell like over here
and and you buy over there and I can I can have those all kind of
like executed in one. And and so that's, you know,
this kind of composability that you have any helium and you
know, as you mentioned right, like in in the IBC Cosmos world,
you have to say asynchronous so you And you don't have that.
Although I've also heard from some people who are working on
some sort of increasing Kunis, IVC things, but I'm curious
like, how, how important do you think?
This is? I mean, I get your point out.
It actually has maybe Security benefits not to have this
simultaneous thing, but it is a big.
Is it a big downside? Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, so, you know, most systems start out.
With toy examples and simple interleaving and re-entrance E
and stuff like that. As you're explaining beginner
steps to people and maybe that actually helped with etherium
catching on is because it had this Simplicity that simply
can't scale to large scale. Right?
I mean, the programs that are actually done is smart
contracts. They're all very, very simple.
That's a lot of money there but compared to Text editor, right?
It's probably you know, it is it is plausible that that that any
of several modern text editors have more code in them for more
interesting sophisticated stuff than all of blockchain combined,
right? You know that they'll be one.
There's multiple programs at Microsoft that if you know, 12
million lines of code in them, right?
I mean, that's the you compare that, with 650, lines of code,
and solidity for the put contract in, in, in in Open,
which would be, you know, maybe a two lines of JavaScript but
nonetheless, it's still got a long way to go before.
You're touching a million lines of code, right?
And and, and so, you know, great in a simple model, you can toy
do toy examples and not shoot yourself in the foot
fundamentally, though, that re-entered c gets, you know, you
can take to correct programs, put them together and end up
with an incorrect system. That's the big problem and
that's what means that the more you Try to do composition in
aetherium, the bigger your risk. So the 600 million six hundred,
sixty million dollar loss on Polly network was a confused,
Deputy attack, that shouldn't be possible but it is because of
message the sender allowing them to execute a ranran see attack
that shouldn't be possible but is because of the re-injured see
model in ethereum, and there is nothing you can do at the
language level. Nothing you can do at the
toolkit level, on top of that Foundation, to be able to
ameliorate those holes are fundamental to The architecture
and approach and that means you can get some amount of stuff
with some pain to work correctly, the same as you can.
If you code it all in Assembly Language with wide-open memory
or anything like that, right? And there's huge value there and
there's some value in having simple examples, but it's not
something that a million developers are ever going to get
right. Because those hazards are just
too hard for humans to reason about.
And so, you know, so let's see. Did that respond to your
problem? Yeah.
Your point. I think that does respond.
Problem and and kind of like intuitively that feels like
right to me, right? Because if you have all of these
different smart contracts on the kill room and then be like
adding more and like you always lie increasing complexity of the
system a lot and then if you compare that with like the
cosmos is well, you have two different genes and they can
they can coordinate with each other, but they are still sort
of their own little you. Universities that can kind of
manage your own risks and they would understand your own
situation better. And if something goes wrong, it
will probably be much more isolated and not like, trip up
everything else. Right?
Right. And, and you get, you know, we
achieve complex software systems sophisticated software systems
with strong encapsulation and composition.
And, and, you know, that was not a critical requirement of the
early Heath, you know, justifiably again that might
have been the right thing to do in order to get the Early
adoption. But you know the same as you
didn't have that in C or you didn't have it in action script
or any of those things. You know, that doesn't mean
they're not, that doesn't mean you want to keep programming in
in C4, you eyes on the web browsers right.
Now. The other thing I would note is
like flash loans are one of the most interesting examples of
something novel for when you have a centralized environment
that is able to impose full ordering on everyone on the
planet, right? We know from large-scale
distributed. It seems that, you know,
infrastructure start out synchronize because they're
easy, but that just does not scale it does.
And, and so, even in The Ether environment, you know, that ship
has sailed right layer to choose, you know, Roll-Ups, all
of those stuff. Those are asynchronous sources
of transaction data, you know, into the into these blockchain,
there is no flash loan across multiple of these
infrastructures. It's just in this time is an
illusion, but, you know, that's just in one environment, right?
And in the other environment, you know, so again, now we're
starting to see Islands of synchronous programming.
In this case, not simple with in a sea of asynchronous,
communication. And it turns out if you just
bite that bullet up front, you get a little more, you know, you
have it, dictate some of how you have to architect things.
But then it ends up being much more, scalable as result in that
sort of, our general design principle out of that and that
and that and that seems to you know be something that the world
understands given the the nature of asynchronous communication on
systems right now. You do need those islands of
simple. This programming, in order to
build local logic without worrying about interleavings,
where re-entrance. He is a source of interleavings
that are very hard to think about.
But but, and that's sort of the model is, you know, local
islands of event comes in computer, New State computer set
of messages commit. I'm done, right?
And then those messages, get delivered and processes
including so forth, but Any interesting thing like flash
loans are the primary. The only really interesting
thing that is novel out of that. Right?
And so you got to look at what are they used for?
How do you address that use case, the primary use being
liquidations? You need to make sure that
liquidations on a new smart contract platform can be
efficient because the liquidation Market is critical
for defy, but you don't have to do it the same way.
You just need to make sure that the that you go.
Oh, you know, I mean anytime you're looking at new
technology, got to be humble and assume there's something.
Them there. And so we do and we look really
deep it, you know, flash loans that we are making is impossible
as possible. But we want the thing of the
problems they solve to be solvable.
So, so we keep an eye on that. well, I mean, when we speak
about the kind of The way than those asynchronous islands like
work with each other, right? Why IBC.
I mean today basically we have token transfers, right?
That's life. So you can have like chain a and
then you can send over the tokens from that change.
The other chain, you know, like an example of where you have a
lot of usage at the moment is there's as Moses, which is the
biggest Cosmos decks and it's kind of connected to all the
other chains and then you can you can put the Chain, that's a
cosmos hobby can send items over and then you can put it into the
quiddity pool or you can trade it for all the more for you
know, your garlic token. My yeah, it's bright but all too
soon. Maybe soon we are going to do it
but someone driving coming very shortly.
But so right now it's just hoping transfer now actually
even token transfer has I mean the thing that surprised me the
most when it came life and when like, osmosis was there and And
you could use it was how good the user experience was because
I was, I was expecting, like, guys, this isn't going to be
like, you know, much worse than a sort of hearing user
experience, but that's not the case, but just not the case.
They just did an awesome job. Yeah, they didn't awesome job.
Yeah. Because you're curious like,
besides hoping transfer. Do you think we'll have like a
few types of sort of these IBC interactions?
Or is this going to be like, you know, in an enormous variety?
Of kind of cross chain. I used to type transactions that
will end up getting usage. It's going to come and go.
I think there will certainly be a variety of application
protocol Types on IBC. Especially one, cigar goes live
and it's easy to do Dynamic IBC, where you just create a new
token type by here's my Json blobs.
Are you go knock yourself out, right?
And it's so easy to set up connections and send the send
interesting, you know packet representations around that
adding new kinds of protocols that are sort of the Out of
what's the data architecture that I'm sending on top of the
transport layers of IBC. I think that that will be, you
know, easier than it is to Define new IP or TCP protocol X,
right? So on TCP, you've got basic file
transfer, but then you got file copy.
You've got remote terminal. You've got media sharing, you've
got, you know, HDPE you've got a CBS TLS.
I mean, just, you know, a gazillion different, protocols
all built on. Top of TCP.
We will get there, it took a while before there were more
protocols on top. Top of TCP when it first came
out onto the internet or you going to make up the internet,
but but, you know, it was sort of, okay, you've got Archie, and
you've got gopher and you've got, you know, a few other file
that are all file transfer types.
Well, here that's like transfer is the fundamental first thing
that anyone wants to do but I'm sure I certainly expect before
the end of the year. They'll be a a IBC format for
Oracle data and you know, or, you know, and I be ideally, IBC
format for Gio. Patient data and you know,
whatever that that althea's radio stuff needs.
Yeah. They should Define their own
protocol for it so that it's easy for people to plug in these
standards and obviously protocol for nft things.
Not just fine if he transfer, but operating in nft remotely or
that sort of stuff. So I definitely expect men and
then you know, once you're on top of Ajax in the web to world
is every different Ajax API, a different protocol turns out
once you can get two Act invocation often, that's enough
for almost everything else. I'm going to Define an object
that has a display method. Is that a new protocol or is it
just here's an object, knock yourself out, right?
Well, in JavaScript is just another object and I just do
object message, you know, remoting.
And so our protocol on top of IBC will be extremely powerful
and extremely generic, but you might or might not want to use
it for, you know, location information or or or the thing
about Oracle messages is they They want to be high priority
and get to your priority because of shoes quickly.
So someone can't screw up your economy by ddosing, your
articles and stuff like that. And so, you know, there are
reasons to have low level protocols the same as we still
invent new TCP, protocols occasionally now, but yeah, most
thing runs on ETV at this point or TLS rather.
Another thing I wanted to ask about Co you talked about the K2
10 million JavaScript developers who are like, you know, now have
a nice environment that they can develop their smart contracts
in. When how do you think about the
scalability of of the Agora chain with you?
I mean, let's say I guess is maybe different ways of looking
at that but, you know, one on the theorem, right?
We have like transactions per second.
Write this like, I guess one way and then let's say, only theorem
we have like this whether it's 15 or something like that.
I think Bitcoin is maybe like three or four or something like
that. I think Cosmos is a couple
thousand Max. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, so, how are ya ready?
See? So you think it's going to be
like? Like a few thousand that sort of
a Greek can get up to. So something like I guess.
I mean they of course few thousands of still like pretty
great. Right?
It's like a hundred times. If it's 100 times you cerium
scale. That's I mean, it gets you
somewhere, right? Yeah.
Yeah, there are multiple answers and and you know, the first
thing is we really need to measure that we have a load Jen
tool that is up and running. Mostly they were focusing on
measuring, you know, does the time get longer per transaction
because that means we've got storage growing and stuff.
Like, But will also measure transaction throughput rate.
Fundamentally. We get, you know, Cosmos
underneath but we have a bunch of elements that mean we're not
worried about scaling, right. The hardest thing to scale is
the number of programmers. That's our main priority and
even if it was only the speed of ethereum and we could only
succeed at the scale of a theorem in terms of transactions
that be a win. If we can get a million more
programs to be able to program this stuff.
Right, but but obviously, We want to go way beyond that.
So the first thing is we're largely agnostic, and the same
way that if I build a react you I I'm not putting bits on the
screen. I'm just saying here's what the
HTML should look like knock yourself out, right?
And now you can have different renderers and different engines.
Rendering that differently with different performance,
trade-offs, and they all can move forward and improve
performance straightforwardly. So, you know, there's IBC
underneath but the jobs we could invoke an invocation is, you
know, he open brand, amm close paren dot deposit, or dot cell.
An acid close print, you know where?
And there was, I betting on a particular consensus algorithm
nowhere, right? I just run that
deterministically on a bunch of machines.
They agree on what happened and we go forward so we can migrate
to hot stuff. We can migrate to to to to you
know, a lazy Ledger style thing. If you know, there's a couple of
interesting ideas in Solana that would give the same acceleration
to Tender moment. And so, you know, we can stay
with you. No, get up there with the best
of speeds on the platforms and and scale just fine in that
regard, more importantly because the model is intrinsically,
async we will be able to and this would end up using the
shared security and a few other things from Cosmos, right?
Stand up an entirely new set of validators for an Agora to
that's running the same model staked with the same build
token, using the same run out of the same mint, but it's got
different contracts and now you've got Twice the performance
Rachel. A big question for any
blockchain is if I add a machine do I add scaling, do I add
capacity and you know in Cosmos as it currently is?
No, you don't you add Assurance, you add to the voting set but
you don't add capacity. Right?
There are a few architects who will lead to add capacity
fundamentally. We all need to get to one of
those agaric. Has a low-hanging fruit version.
Of one of those will be able to scale horizontally with some,
you know, cost of having multiple validator.
SATs but that's fine. I mean it'll it'll be shared
validators. It just means that that chorus
one will have to deploy another machine to run a gorg to, but it
looks uniform from a programming computational point of view.
So there's no change to the contracts, right?
The the bid here that you know, the auction here that's running
with a with a contract that is that is making a bid on
something on behalf of their user.
You know, there's a link to the issue is whether you're closer
whether you're far but it's a you know to block latency issue
rather than 20 minutes, waiting for proof, or proof of work to
finish or rather than 0. This simple model that had, you
know, simple, you know, Global locks across the entire
universe. Now, I've broken it and I'm
doing sharding but I'm trying to keep the simple model and oh my
God, never mind, right? Yeah, that's sort of the the the
Jeep atomicity but have sharding model is is not how large scale
distributed systems have succeeded.
Previously doesn't mean there isn't cool research there.
And it will certainly be interesting to see what they
come up with. But we already know how to do
how to scale systems. Let's use that knowledge first,
you know, and and and and and we can get real scalability out of
that. Yeah.
I know.
I agree. I think that's definitely want
to stay, like, amazing Transit. He's had so many calls.
Mostly. It's just, it's just so simple
that you have, like one chain and okay, gets full and you just
like, add another chain. And it's like, I mean, that's a
days like, you know, you know, for sure that's gonna work.
Crank and you know, for sure that like, yeah, I mean you
could do it go with 100, right? And then you are like at you do
you have like a chief tries a huge scale Improvement.
Whereas if you can cerium well the amount of complexity and
research and work that goes into scaling that sister is just
insane and and you know, so far with no success.
I mean if you if you if you don't count lay your to stuff
right that I guess which I do. I mean that's a scaling
technique that we'd be able to use particularly.
If you could do zero knowledge, stuff, love that and zero
knowledge is one of the magical ways to get much higher scaling.
So I talked about the low-hanging fruit scaling that,
you know, we probably won't do this here, but we could do these
here, right? We know how to do that.
That's straightforward. Engineering, all that sort of
stuff, and it gets you Cloud level scaling.
So, if I have Thousand machines while it's 100 per Block Chain.
So, that means I've got 100 x. The current 10,000, is that 100
times 100? I don't know, something like
that, right? You know, that that means I've
got 100 x ^ of any current, you know, scaling of the transaction
rate on the blockchain. That's pretty cool.
Well, I'm does law means maybe it's 90 x rather than 100
actually, but with zero knowledge stuff.
If I can run a machine that's going to produce a proof that it
correctly executed things. And now that proof can be can be
can be verified in in order one time.
I'm now if I add one more machine.
I've got one more machine out there proving a different
computation. So I've got exactly horizontal
scaling. The more machines.
I add, the more compute I can do and I'm rolling them all up into
one chain, that's validating the, the snarks that those
things acted correctly. We're not, that's a research
problem still and you know and you know Z cast was one of our
first Founders or first funders and we're certainly interested
in that line of research. It's being driven partly by you
know, do the same thing for the evm, but it turns out the Shoot
engine may actually be easier to do than the evm, so we'll see.
But that's not this year. That's future.
Yeah, maybe maybe sort of, you know, final topic that we could
like touch on a little bit. I mean, we talked a lot about
like, you know, gorik as is environment to develop smart
contract in and they go work as this Block Chain, you know,
there will be like, a way to like deliver applications built
on that. Platform.
But do gory also has, you know, build a bunch of other kind of
components know, and, and sort of these economic.
It's like it's also an economic system.
Like, first of all, like, why did you choose to do that?
Right now? Just say, like, oh, it's smart
contract chain and, you know, people can build whatever they
want on there. Because well, a couple of
different reasons, but but the big part is we want to enable an
economy of cooperating business. We want to enable, you know, the
explosion of D Phi. And and here we have a bunch of
Economics economists that are near the project or working at
the project or advisor, whatever.
And one of the observations is is, you know, economies having a
stable token, having a stable currency is Greece.
To the wheels of an economy, right?
It removes a big bunch of friction.
And in particular, for example, let's talk about gas prices,
right? In etherium, you're paying eith
for execution. But execution is really like
your postage bill or your rent. And so it's the equivalent of
you're paying Apple shares for your rent.
Now you can do that, right? But it's not great from an
economic efficiency point of view because now you can't
compare his your rent. Next month, more than your This
month because the same number of Apple shares her name to check
it out. We'll go up.
Right? Or is there a hedge?
Did it maybe do a distribution in the middle?
So it's even though it's more Apple shares.
Its kind of even you know, it's like hey, you know, why are you
thinking about that? If you just paid your rent and
dollars, you can tell you're paying the same rent next month
or they raised the rent by five percent, right?
And so, so businesses shouldn't need to deal with that crap.
And it prevents certain kinds of innovation and eliminates
certain kinds of very useful. Comic activities and services
that people can provide. And so if we want, you know,
when when node.js come out or npm when react came out, people
could innovate quickly with these components produce
something that solve their problem.
And then they had a place to deploy it.
Well, we needed a place, and aetherium is a place to deploy
smart contracts. It just has these intrinsic
problems that are one of the things that we are building a
different place for. And so we needed something to be
a place. The question is, how is gas paid
for well. Again, if we were paying with
build, then we've got this problem of the token that you're
trying to spend for your your gas.
And your postage is speculative. So people will hoard it.
You'll have it be very volatile to be incentives to increase,
you know, the, the, how much I can charge all these kinds of
things. And if we just had a stable
tokens, don't have to be 100%. Stable, doesn't have to be fed
to any particular thing. It just has to be low
volatility. Now, suddenly, I could compare
today's cost with tomorrow's costs and so Actually charged
our gas in terms of that stable token, which means it had to
exist in order to launch the platform, but we believe that
the, that the positive impact of the smooth integration and plug
ability of components as a result.
By removing that, friction will be worth that effort.
Additionally. We wanted there to not be that
that, you know, they're sort of these intrinsic misalignments in
the model of paying a speculative token both that now,
some people want to play games with the price or they want to
bid it up or the markets changing their bidding it down
and that impacts the ability to actually get anything which we
know from aetherium. We know from from other chains
that aren't as expensive, but you can start to see these bad,
these band Dynamics and the architecture of ethereum.
And other chains that the drive from, it are such that the only
way that people actually operating the network, get
rewarded or increase their reward is, if they raised the
rent, you know, they're the slumlord and you're trying to
start a startup business inside of your 10.
And right? And they're raising the rent.
The only way they can extract value.
And so if they see someone making a bunch of money, they
raised the rent and we've seen that Dynamic and ethereum where,
you know, the landlord's, the miners resist things, that would
improve the environment, improve the economy, but that would
result in them getting less rents.
And so their incentive is, you know, raise the rent.
It's like it's like, you know the way you're going to grow the
economy is by giving rewards for more traffic on the freeway,
right. More traffic on the freeway is
not a goal. It's a Side effect.
And you'd like, people incentivize to not have that
happen, you know, you'd like more business with less traffic.
Okay. So we hate we take a the stable
token as what we pay for gas. And that does not go to the
validators. It goes into a pool that help
stabilize the currency that helps ensure the security of the
system. It's not the reward validator.
So the validators don't have a reason to drive up the prices
indeed. They have reasons to lower the
prices to enable their be more economic activity because all
the rewards to stagers and validators.
Come from the economic activity come from the fees for trading
in the mmm, the fees for borrowing run.
That's what drives the economy and its scales with the amount
of economic activity on the system.
And so now validators have incentive to grow the economic
activity on the system. And so those things mean it you
really want defy intrinsic to the entire stack and that was a
reason to do a separate chain basically and we look very
closely at and eventually we will enable the computational
model on other chains. Getting it so that it can ramp
economically efficiently is, is going to be a big useful value.
So, the key thing, you know, so are staking token is build BLD.
The stable token is run. Are you in?
And the interesting observation is given that.
We launched connected with IBC, which is always the intention.
We launched in this in this, you know, interchain ecosystem that
75 billion dollars worth of assets that cannot currently be
used as collateral for a stable. And and what that means, you
know, and and so. So I'm really excited about the
first launch where our first use case for the platform is exactly
those contracts. You just mentioned where that
stable token. We need for our execution is
also something that's valuable to people that want a stable
token to trade on osmosis or as part of some injective smart
contract or you know or through axle or whatever.
It is all of these, you know, all of these sir.
Says can get value by having something with a more
predictable value. But, you know, in the design of
the Run architecture is envisioned, they can do.
So we're their asset that they are producing, could be used as
collateral, assuming the community agrees could be used
as collateral for their loan. So it's not you got to buy in to
build use build, get run used run as a stable coin, so that
your chain is boosting our chain.
It's, you know, you got a bunch of atoms already.
You know that you you and you want.
Be able to leverage them into D Phi on some other platform.
Bring them over to the Run protocol on a cork borrows from
run against it. Take it over IBC to that other
chain, do your thing. And so, we're really excited
about the Run protocol coming out and the extent to, which it
ends up being a community back. Community-run stable token for
the broader interchain community.
So that's kind of the the the first use case and it just you
know, it burgeon from the interest and input and feedback
that we got from. In this particular case the
Lisbon Cosmo first. For instance, and and other
other activity since then. So so we're very excited about
that. So I wanted to make sure we hit
on that because that will be coming out in you know, the next
quarter or so. Okay.
Yeah, so it's speaking about timelines.
I mean, the maintenance life now, but like what are what are
the major milestones and you're welcome know?
What can people look forward to? Okay.
So yes mean, that 0 went out in November.
We had a public sale at the very end of December, which people
may not have noticed. We're very excited about that.
And so now, we are starting to put together.
You know, we're working on. We've been doing a bunch of
security Audits, and Security reviews, and purple, team
attacks, and various things to harden, various parts of the
system. And we're finishing up all of
those smart contracts. So the, you know, the One
protocol has a vault system. It has a name m, it has
something where you can, you can get run versus your steak build
and you know, I be seeing a gration.
All those pieces. So we're working on finishing
those up. The goal is to ship that in the
next quarter or so, you know, March would be great.
You know, we just were really excited.
We just hired a head of engineering.
And so, you know, in the next couple of days, I'll get a much
firmer schedule from him and we'll be able to talk more dates
but soon, you know, so, so, Sooner now than ever before.
So in the next couple of months, we will roll out the Run
protocol for IBC and for the energy and community, and then
we will go into phase two of Maintenance Phase 2 of Maine.
Net is where some set of people that were working with and we
are working with some other teams that are not focused
around the Run protocol, you know, we'll be building on top
of our smart contract API. They already are, and it's
programmable on our definite now.
So people can get involved now and we have bounties for them to
be able to build stuff, but they will, you know that Hackathon
winners and so forth. We will work with to get
permission vote to deploy these things.
So we have a 10 ft contract at some point permission, vote to
roll out, this nft contract. So, lots of people can easily
mint and if T's in JavaScript, where they get to write some
JavaScript that customizes, their, you know, their minting
process or rendering or what have you.
That would be pretty cool, right, you know, so will the
phase 2 will be permission roll out where it's a chain vote to
approve deployment or instantiation of smart contracts
and then phase 3 and And so, so Phase 2 will be, you know,
summer time frame phase three will be, hopefully Q4 and that
will be the permissionless and the primary difference are.
Well, we know some improvements will be making it all the
various apis. But but but the primary
difference areas, anyone can publish anything, we can run
arbitrary code. So we've got more and more
security audits where one of the things that you get from.
The security audits are things that need to be fixed.
Now, for the Run protocol, things that need to be addressed
before we have arbitrary. Old running on chain, and so
there's just a lot of, you know, security and Engineering work
that goes towards releasing to unlocking the door and letting
anybody in. So lots of things we're doing
this year. Yeah, thanks so much for coming
on. It's been a pleasure to speak
with you soon, pleasure to like sort of follow along and get
gorked Ernie and to support it. And, you know, the participating
that those are from, the course, one side.
So yeah, I'm really excited to see, you know, see this play out
and see the kind of a great ecosystem and all this work
finally coming to life this year.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you guys for your support, over the years and, and your
investment in IBC and all that kind of stuff.
So, so I'm glad you guys are one of our validators and, and I
look forward to lots of stuff that we do on Jane together in
the future. Absolutely cool.
Right? Then if that thanks so much,
everyone. Thank you for joining us on this
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