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Welcome to Epicenter. 
To show which talks about the 

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technologies, projects and 
people driving decentralization 

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and the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Sebastian. 

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I'm here with Felix. 
Today we're speaking with 

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Nicholas Kunko. 
He's the founder of Chronicle. 

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Chronicle is an Oracle protocol 
providing data for blockchain 

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applications, and it's also a 
spin out of the maker protocol. 

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So Nicholas and his team were 
basically heading the Oracle 

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team at Maker and that team has 
now spun out to form Chronicle 

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as a standalone product. 
So we'll be diving into 

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Chronicle today, understanding 
how it works and also talking 

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about the Oracle market more 
broadly. 

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Nicholas, thanks for joining us 
today. 

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It's. 
A pleasure. 

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Thanks for having me. 
So you've been in the space for 

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for some time, obviously you 
were part of the maker team and 

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heading the the Oracle team 
there. 

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How did you get involved with 
Ethereum and how do you start 

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working with the maker team? 
Actually quite funny. 

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I was at, I was at IBM at the in
the research department and we 

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were actually working on hyper 
Ledger which was this 

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permissioned Ledger. 
And then the future blockchains,

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yeah, yeah, it was, it was the 
future. 

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Effectively IBM had missed the 
boat on cloud completely. 

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They were very upset and they 
said the next thing that comes 

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along like we're going big and 
we're going early. 

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And you know, to their credit, 
you know, they were very, very 

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early on blockchain. 
They just got the the public 

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private Ledger kind of equation 
wrong. 

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And and so the Ethereum white 
paper kind of came out and I 

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read this and I was like, oh 
wait, like. 

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You know, public general compute
layer, that's the thing. 

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You know, I go to my boss, I'm 
like, all right, you know, we 

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should, we should throw away 
everything we did, right? 

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We should just use this Ethereum
stuff. 

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And they're like, no, that's 
just vaporware. 

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I think somewhere like, I think 
like a year later like a main 

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net actually launches and we're 
like, like look, it's real like 

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let's go like and I was quickly 
told, you know, shut up, get in 

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line, right. 
So so I made my way over to the 

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Ethereum community and while 
like the community was great, 

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there were not actually that 
many like real let's let's say 

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like protocols to to to work and
contribute to. 

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There was a lot of kind of like 
hobbyist stuff going on, but and

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with with grand ideals, but not 
a lot of people just working 

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full time on on building 
something. 

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And I think back then there were
kind of like the three big teams

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were like I think Auger, DIGIC 
style and and maker. 

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And so out of those I I kind of 
chose maker because I just 

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seemed like a circle of like 
these individuals where I felt 

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like the the dumbest person in 
the room and that always seemed 

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like a very, very productive 
environment for for learning. 

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And yeah, that's super 
interesting. 

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I think also like interesting to
hear like these three teams 

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essentially all defy 
applications if you want to say 

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like that, right. 
Like Digic Star was about 

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tokenizing gold. 
So interesting that the the 

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early teams were already working
on like I guess what became the 

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the biggest use case. 
Sure. 

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I mean, if you think about what 
Digic style was, I think it was 

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just a matter of like, you know,
wrong, wrong timing, right 

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today. 
Like a Digic style would would 

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be an RWA, right? 
A token that is like a stable 

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coin backed by a gram of, you 
know, physical gold in the real 

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world. 
Like that's a real world asset. 

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You've brought gold onto the 
blockchain, right? 

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That would be that would be huge
in the the RWA narrative right 

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now, right? 
Right. 

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So also like of these three, I 
guess like you said the timing 

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was wrong there maybe and also 
like Augur sort of the 

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projection market thing didn't 
turn out? 

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Like that, well, let's say or 
it's still like sort of it's 

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kind of still around I guess 
more so than with with pulley 

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market maybe. 
But also, I guess, yeah, Maker 

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definitely is the most 
successful out of the stream, 

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maybe because of you also, but 
yeah. 

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Or maybe can you tell us a 
little bit about what about the 

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early days that Maker and sort 
of, yeah, what was so special 

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about it? 
Yeah. 

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I mean, in the early days of 
maker like, there was nothing. 

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Right, there were, there were no
dexes like this was way before 

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an Ether delta or anything. 
So we were like, well, we want 

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to make a dye, but in order to 
make dye we have to build all 

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this other stuff first, right? 
So we made the first decks. 

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There were no oracles. 
So, you know, conceptually they 

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existed, but no one had actually
made like a like an Oracle 

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protocol that anyone could use. 
No one was planning to make one.

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So we made the first Oracle, we 
deployed that in I want to say 

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June of 2017 in conjunction with
like the the prototype for 

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Forsy, I think it was called 
Protosy and you know that that 

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protocol I mean one was like the
first oracles on Ethereum, but 

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two if you think about how long 
that. 

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That was running. 
I mean it's it's been running 

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consistently since then, right. 
And like 6 years at this point 

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on Ethereum, I mean that makes 
it one of like the oldest kind 

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of almost like a grandfather 
like protocol, if you will. 

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So we're we're quite proud to 
have built something that that 

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really lasted and like withstood
the the test of time, what were 

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the early visions for Maker and 
what were they trying to achieve

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at the time and you know 
contrast that with what Maker 

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has become now, like how 
different has that vision played

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out. 
Sure. 

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So, so I think with any kind of 
startup with a with a grand 

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vision, you always have to make 
kind of adjustments over time. 

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I'd like it you, you have to 
imagine, right when the idea for

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Maker was conceived, when the 
Maker white paper came out, 

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there was no defy. 
The thing that I give like, you 

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know, Runa and and Nikolai, the,
the two cofounders of of maker 

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Dow, so much credit for is that 
to them it wasn't like a 

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possibility that this like 
vibrant Defy ecosystem would 

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exist, right. 
It was a certainty. 

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And they were building, you 
know, for this like puzzle piece

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in that certain future that they
envisioned, right. 

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And the. 
You know, I, I, I, I think 

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founders always have kind of 
visions of the future but like 

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you know Runa and and Nikolai 
were really acute and really 

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kind of got it right. 
But, but even you know within, 

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within that, right, you can say,
OK, well in the future there's 

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this vibrant defy ecosystem, 
there's going to need to be some

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way to transact value that is 
stable, right? 

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Because people don't want to 
transact in something that's 

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volatile. 
Right. 

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Like if you're a merchant, you 
don't want to accept something 

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that's volatile, right? 
You have thin margins. 

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If you don't have, if you don't 
get paid in something stable, 

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your margins blow up, right. 
And you don't have a sustainable

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business, right? 
As a customer, you don't want to

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hold anything volatile, right, 
because you don't want to see 

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your wallet, your wallet like a 
value like fluctuate, right? 

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You want to have like a stable 
purchasing power. 

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So I think the the need for a 
for a stable coin was. 

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Quite clear from a theoretical 
perspective, but it what you 

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know I think they were kind of 
this idea that the consumer side

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of using crypto right like in 
their everyday lives, right for 

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for spending and and for earning
that that would kind of keep in 

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pace with the more let's say 
financial infrastructure right 

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and. 
I think as we've seen that the 

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past couple of years while there
has been consumer adoption of 

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crypto, DEFY has just like 
outscaled that type of adoption 

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massively. 
Yeah certainly I mean the the I 

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think that the role of maker in 
early DEFY. 

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I think a lot of people who 
maybe were using Defy now it's 

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sort of like you know it I want 
to say it's forgotten but it's 

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like because state of cores are 
such an important part of Defy 

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and can obviously you at USDC 
has taken up the larger part of 

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the market it it's. 
So I think it's worth 

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remembering that in the 
beginning when we didn't have 

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USDC like we had died and I was 
the only real way to get 

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stability like so get get out of
risk assets in in in early Defy 

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and played like a tremendously 
important role. 

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So I think it's like a very 
important public good and and 

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also something that allowed Defy
to basically be spawned into 

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existence. 
I kind of think like the 

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inflection point. 
What really hit for me was that,

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you know in back in in 2017, 
right when we when we released 

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Psy, the moment after we 
released it, make her internally

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started paying everybody in Psy 
and it wasn't like. 

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Plan that way beforehand, it was
just kind of like, well, like, 

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you know, if if we, if we 
actually built what we said we 

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built, you know, if we actually 
like believe that, like it works

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like you wouldn't mind being 
being paid in it, right. 

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And I remember Andy Andy 
Millennia, who was the CTO at 

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the time, just being like, OK, 
we're going to start paying 

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everybody inside everyone was 
kind of like shrug, OK And 

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that's really cool, right. 
That's when you go from like. 

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Theoretical product you know 
with like oh it's going to be 

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used in the future for all of 
this stuff to like no you're 

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like using it yourself right. 
You you have so much confidence 

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in this thing you've built right
that you're willing to you know 

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kind of like stake your your 
livelihood on it and and and you

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know that continues today like 
even a chronicle like we we 

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still pay our team and die even 
at maker teams are still paid 

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and die like it's you know 
there's a lot of teams across 

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crypto. 
Right. 

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That get paid and die or are 
willing to accept payment and 

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die. 
You know, we work with auditors 

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more like can we pay you and 
die? 

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And they're like, yeah, no 
problem, right. 

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So it's a it's really beautiful 
that there's like really the 

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generalized, like economy builds
built around the whole thing. 

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I think, yeah, it's really cool.
It's also like something that 

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you see in the like maker 
community in general. 

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I guess we're we were noticing 
that. 

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It's often seen as like one of 
these most like decentralized or

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like pushing for 
decentralization in a lot of 

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ways and I guess die being like 
the most decentralized stable 

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coin arguably maybe to this day 
and and that being used there is

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also a sign of that but maybe 
you can also like expand you 

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know how how else this is like 
taking shape in in like sort of 

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the spirit of of people working 
on maker and and how it led you 

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essentially to I guess also like
now become chronicle in your 

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own. 
Spin out from maker. 

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Sure. 
I mean so from the beginning in 

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Maker there was always this 
focus on on quality, on doing 

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something right. 
You know, and you can I I think 

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there's like this this, this 
trade off right in the 

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development space where you know
you can do something fast, you 

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can do something cheap, or you 
can do something with very high 

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quality right and like choose 
to. 

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And I think Maker was very much 
always maxing out on, you know, 

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doing something at a very high 
quality, right, regardless of of

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how much time it took, right. 
And I think we got a lot of 

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pushback at the time, right, 
for, for being very slow to 

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release things. 
But I think our vision was 

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always, you know, that D Phi 
would scale to the billions, the

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10s of billions to the hundreds 
of billions, so. 

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You know, when we were thinking 
about like the financial 

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mechanisms and and backing for 
dye, right, that was always the 

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standard to to what we were 
building to. 

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And then and I think that was 
that was very prescient. 

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So I think like that ethos, you 
know at this point we've kind of

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had like generations of of like 
core developers that maker, 

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right. 
There's just been like several, 

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several different different kind
of waves of of people, but I 

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think that. 
That attitude towards this like 

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like we kind of like to call it 
like maker Grade I I think that 

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attitude towards doing something
right, you know that kind of has

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really prevailed especially when
you see like all of the the ex 

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developers of Maker down right 
to branching off you know to 

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start their own their own 
projects, right. 

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You know you see it with the. 
With the Ashna guys you see it 

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with the the summer five guys, 
right. 

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You see it with with sense. 
You know I think that prevailing

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attitude of of kind of like 
Maker grade has really like 

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00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:08,590
pollinated to to those projects 
as well and Chronicle is 

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00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:12,270
definitely definitely among the 
counts that among like one of 

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our values internally as well. 
Let's talk about Chronicle more 

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00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,760
specifically. 
Why did you guys choose to spin 

229
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:28,440
out the the Oracle from from 
from maker as as a different 

230
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,920
product and we were we were 
talking about this before the 

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00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:37,360
show Felix and I and I I think 
this isn't the first like I feel

232
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,760
like Pithe also spin out of some
project. 

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00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:44,030
I know that in Cosmos like 
there's this UMI protocol which 

234
00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:46,150
is lending protocol they're 
spinning out their Oracle as 

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00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:50,110
well as a product. 
Is this a trend or is are we 

236
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:53,710
like is there like a Oracle spin
out trend happening here or? 

237
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:58,190
Well, so in terms of our journey
out of Maker, I think it was 

238
00:14:58,190 --> 00:15:03,270
like a very like natural and 
organic transition, right. 

239
00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:09,950
You know, maker really took this
path of, you know, gradual. 

240
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,640
Decentralization, right, it, it 
did have, you know, a foundation

241
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,440
at one point, right, that helped
bootstrap the protocol and then 

242
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,320
the foundation said and now our 
mission is done and they really 

243
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:26,840
handed over the entire protocol 
right to the Dow and and maker 

244
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,560
is actually like a true Dow now 
right like there's governance 

245
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,880
votes to on board teams to give 
teams budget. 

246
00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:36,610
Right. 
To approve or or reject like 

247
00:15:36,610 --> 00:15:40,250
different projects like it's 
truly decentralized in in every 

248
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:43,650
way. 
And so that that kind of 

249
00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:50,930
transition into the Dow I think 
was, was was very was was like a

250
00:15:50,930 --> 00:15:53,850
big milestone for for Defy in 
general, right. 

251
00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:57,290
You kind of saw people have 
dows, but they were always 

252
00:15:57,290 --> 00:16:01,610
backed by these foundations that
were kind of like kind of like 

253
00:16:01,770 --> 00:16:04,770
shepherding the. 
The the Dow in a certain 

254
00:16:04,770 --> 00:16:07,690
direction, right. 
And maker was the one to truly 

255
00:16:07,690 --> 00:16:11,010
like you know let go of the 
wheel and let the Dow kind of 

256
00:16:11,010 --> 00:16:15,370
lead itself and and and they 
should be commended for that. 

257
00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:19,890
But I think the the problem that
that we kind of ran into is that

258
00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:24,930
the Dow was trying to do too 
much and it kind of was pulled 

259
00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:26,690
in too many different 
directions. 

260
00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:32,370
And so that's kind of what the 
the end game was all about was 

261
00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:36,280
about. 
Simplifying the Dow right, 

262
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,320
narrowing its scope right and 
and targeting it more towards 

263
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,480
like a smaller set of objectives
and and this led to like a very 

264
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,120
natural kind of like spin out of
of protocols from Maker right. 

265
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,800
You see like Spark protocol 
developed by Phoenix Labs right 

266
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,080
and the Chronicle on the Oracle 
front. 

267
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,600
So there was a so there's 
there's still like a very, very 

268
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,760
close partnership with Maker, 
right, but these are. 

269
00:17:02,170 --> 00:17:03,730
These are independent entities, 
right. 

270
00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:07,450
And they they kind of just like 
count themselves like among like

271
00:17:07,450 --> 00:17:13,250
this this maker ecosystem. 
I'm also like a partner to to to

272
00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:15,849
maker, but they are independent,
right. 

273
00:17:15,849 --> 00:17:18,490
They have their own independent 
set of objectives. 

274
00:17:18,609 --> 00:17:21,089
And I think you know from an 
Oracle protocol perspective like

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00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:25,329
it's great that you can that you
can have a partner like maker 

276
00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:28,530
where you can prove you know 
this infrastructure, this Oracle

277
00:17:28,530 --> 00:17:30,450
infrastructure right is rock 
solid, right. 

278
00:17:30,450 --> 00:17:33,920
It's. 
It's secured, you know during 

279
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,480
the bull market like maker had I
think around 20 billion TVL. 

280
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,720
You know like this Oracle 
infrastructure is like really 

281
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,240
battle tested right. 
And then to use that right to 

282
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,960
bootstrap your credibility right
to go and bring this Oracle to 

283
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,960
to everyone right. 
I think, I think there's a very,

284
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,680
there's a very natural kind of 
like product market fit and and 

285
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,770
transition there. 
Yeah, we're definitely want to 

286
00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:04,050
talk a bit about that like you 
know your plans of expanding 

287
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:07,970
sort of from being the partner 
for Maker to like onboarding 

288
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:10,970
other protocols. 
But I think initially let's 

289
00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:14,610
maybe talk about technically 
Oracles in general. 

290
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:19,850
You know, and you maybe explain 
a little bit first what the role

291
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:22,810
of the Oracle actually is in 
Maker, maybe for listeners that 

292
00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:24,770
that because we're like now 
talking 20 minutes, we're just 

293
00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:27,410
assuming everyone knows, maybe a
lot of people know, but maybe 

294
00:18:27,410 --> 00:18:31,140
just to refresh the memory. 
We go like that and you explain 

295
00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:34,620
the role of the Oracle maker and
and yeah we we sort of dive a 

296
00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:37,540
bit into the tech. 
Sure. 

297
00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:43,100
So in Maker and you know in 
general in D5, right, Oracles 

298
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:47,500
are kind of used as the like 
canonical source of truth, 

299
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:50,300
right, for for any kind of data,
right. 

300
00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:54,380
And and that can be, you know 
that that's usually like 

301
00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:56,180
expressed in terms of like 
prices. 

302
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:04,310
So in maker right, if you lock 
up some ease to open up a die 

303
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:07,590
position against right, the 
protocol needs to know what the 

304
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:11,870
value of ETH is right? 
In order to you know decide how 

305
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:16,230
much die are you allowed to to 
to borrow right. 

306
00:19:17,150 --> 00:19:19,270
It needs to know what the price 
of ETH is right? 

307
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:22,390
In order to determine which 
loans are, you know, at risk of 

308
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:23,870
liquidation, right. 
So. 

309
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,840
Oracles are kind of like like 
this critical infrastructure. 

310
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,080
Like you can almost think of 
them as like the Achilles heel 

311
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,360
of a of a protocol. 
Because if an Oracle ever 

312
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,280
prints, you know, etha is 0 or 
if an Oracle ever prints like 

313
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,240
etha is $100 trillion right in 
in, you know, a second, the 

314
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,920
protocol pretty much blows up 
and goes and solve it right. 

315
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,160
So they're they're really like 
this. 

316
00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:58,580
Mission critical type of 
infrastructure like a like, like

317
00:19:58,580 --> 00:20:01,900
the way I tell it to my team is 
that building an Oracle is like 

318
00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:05,820
building a spaceship. 
There's no room for air, right? 

319
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:11,620
Like if you, you know, if you 
have a bug on on a spaceship, 

320
00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:13,100
right? 
You know, like people's lives 

321
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:15,940
could be lost, right? 
If you have a bug in an Oracle, 

322
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,460
right? 
You know, you could lead to 

323
00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:20,540
billions of dollars just 
evaporating, right? 

324
00:20:20,540 --> 00:20:22,720
So it's. 
It's one of those things where 

325
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,640
you really have to be very 
deliberate in how you design an 

326
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,120
Oracle right, and from a that 
perspective, you have to be very

327
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:34,200
deliberate in choosing the right
Oracle right. 

328
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,680
So yeah, maybe like you already 
mentioned, one challenge here in

329
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,440
running an Oracle, right? 
Like a lot is at stake. 

330
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,840
Can you maybe dive deeper into 
some other challenges of running

331
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,610
an Oracle and then we? 
You know go into like how 

332
00:20:52,610 --> 00:20:55,890
Chronicle solves them hopefully 
sure. 

333
00:20:56,690 --> 00:21:02,810
So I think the the big trade off
that every Oracle protocol has 

334
00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:08,850
is this trade off between kind 
of security and decentralization

335
00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:12,170
and cost. 
And traditionally the way this 

336
00:21:12,170 --> 00:21:18,890
plays out is that you can as an 
Oracle protocol right choose the

337
00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:21,710
number of validators that you 
have, right. 

338
00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:25,910
Do you have a lot of validators,
do you have very small number of

339
00:21:25,910 --> 00:21:31,190
validators And that will affect 
the cost of the Oracle and and 

340
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:34,670
the, the cost of the Oracle 
right is like a very important 

341
00:21:34,670 --> 00:21:39,630
part of creating a sustainable 
Oracle product, right, because 

342
00:21:39,630 --> 00:21:43,910
of gas prices multiply right. 
I think we've been very blessed 

343
00:21:43,910 --> 00:21:48,790
with you know a nine way, 10 
way, 15 way kind of average gas 

344
00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:52,010
prices. 
But if you think back to even 

345
00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:55,530
just a year and a half ago, 
right, two years ago during the 

346
00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:58,010
peaks of the bull market, right,
there was a day where we hit 

347
00:21:58,010 --> 00:22:02,370
7000 way right. 
And you know, Can you imagine 

348
00:22:02,370 --> 00:22:05,530
the costs like the cost to 
operate your product, right, 

349
00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:10,050
literally going up, you know the
500X, right. 

350
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:13,530
That's that's incredibly 
difficult to deal with from a 

351
00:22:13,530 --> 00:22:17,740
service provider perspective, 
but also incredibly difficult to

352
00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:21,740
deal with, right, from a user's 
of oracles, right. 

353
00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:26,940
So typically what Oracle 
providers have kind of done is 

354
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:31,060
erred on the side of like okay 
smaller number of validators, 

355
00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:35,550
right? 
Kind of good enough security to 

356
00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:37,630
kind of keep those costs in 
check, right? 

357
00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:41,470
Not updating the Oracle as 
frequently, right. 

358
00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:44,830
If you do less updates of the 
Oracle right, you can save on 

359
00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:47,950
costs even more. 
And and this, these are not real

360
00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:49,990
fixes, right? 
These are kind of just like 

361
00:22:51,070 --> 00:22:56,590
Band-Aid fixes, right? 
What you really need to do is 

362
00:22:56,590 --> 00:23:00,390
kind of solve the underlying 
engineering problem of this 

363
00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:04,110
linear relationship between the 
number of validators, right, and

364
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:07,430
the cost of the transaction. 
And so I think that's that's 

365
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:09,790
kind of what Chronicle kind of 
has solved. 

366
00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:16,870
You know it's it's certainly not
the entire Oracle problem, but 

367
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:20,470
it's a very, very significant 
chunk of it that was kind of 

368
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:24,950
holding back the Oracle space. 
And and I think that's that's 

369
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:29,000
what makes Chronicle quite, 
quite unique in that you know we

370
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,000
have this constant time Oracle 
verification mechanism. 

371
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,480
So that means that you can have 
any number of validators, right.

372
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,440
And the cost stays exactly the 
same. 

373
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,880
And the the beautiful thing 
about this is like you know we 

374
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,080
have some some incredibly smart 
people on the team who who have 

375
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,000
some very good experience with 
with gas optimizing. 

376
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:57,610
And so we've actually gotten the
the gas cost of an Oracle 

377
00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:59,850
update. 
You know again with any number 

378
00:23:59,850 --> 00:24:03,130
of validators, right, could be 
one, could be 100, could be 

379
00:24:03,130 --> 00:24:10,490
1000, we've got it down to 
66,000 gas, which is to to put 

380
00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:14,490
that into perspective of of how 
incredible that is, that is less

381
00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:18,170
than an E RC20 transfer that the
cheapest transaction you can do 

382
00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:21,850
on Aetherium, right, is sending 
E to someone that's 21,000 gas, 

383
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,880
right. 
This is the equivalent of of 

384
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,200
three of those. 
You know when when you compare 

385
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,840
this to like like to put this in
reference to other Oracle 

386
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:38,280
protocols, chain link with like 
10 validators costs about 

387
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,240
280,000 to 300,000 gas for not 
only have we gotten this down, 

388
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,360
the cost of time to have you 
know a multiple of those number 

389
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,400
of validators, but we've even 
gotten the cost down like 80% 

390
00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:54,980
compared to some of these other,
some of these other Oracle 

391
00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:58,140
providers so. 
So when you when you say 

392
00:24:58,140 --> 00:25:02,260
validators, I mean I think a lot
of people think of validators as

393
00:25:02,860 --> 00:25:05,100
network participants that are 
securing a chain. 

394
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:08,780
And in the context of say a 
layer one like Ethereum or an or

395
00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:12,220
an app chain, what? 
What does a validator look like 

396
00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:16,100
in the context of Chronicle? 
Or like another like you 

397
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:18,060
mentioned, chain Link also has 
validators like what? 

398
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,400
How? 
How are these participants 

399
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,240
interacting with the chain? 
What kind of infrastructure are 

400
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,120
they running? 
What are they securing exactly? 

401
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,720
So So I think the the easiest 
way to think about oracles 

402
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,400
sometimes is like a good layer 
of abstraction is like a multi 

403
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,920
sick right? 
You have a certain number of of 

404
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,000
signers right? 
That's your validators and you 

405
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,160
need like a subset of those to 
reach consensus around 

406
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,220
something. 
So in terms of what that looks 

407
00:25:50,220 --> 00:25:54,900
like from the tech side, it's 
you get a bunch of, you know, 

408
00:25:55,620 --> 00:26:01,060
actors to, you know, hopefully 
that you know, have some kind of

409
00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:07,060
reputation attached to them to 
run a client and they 

410
00:26:07,060 --> 00:26:09,460
essentially right have their own
keys, right? 

411
00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:13,860
And what they're doing is 
essentially querying all of the 

412
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:18,790
data, processing the data 
themselves, right, Modeling it 

413
00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:22,350
and then spitting out like an 
answer of being like OK, ETH 

414
00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:26,470
USD, I think it's this, right? 
And they sign that with their 

415
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:31,830
key and then they push it to 
kind of a peer-to-peer layer. 

416
00:26:32,990 --> 00:26:38,230
And so now you kind of have like
all of these kind of gossips, 

417
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:42,110
price attestations kind of like 
floating around and like a big 

418
00:26:42,110 --> 00:26:47,060
like primordial soup of like of 
you know like attested to 

419
00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:49,220
information. 
And now you can start 

420
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:51,260
aggregating all of those 
together, right. 

421
00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:56,140
Then once you have enough 
aggregated information right 

422
00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:59,820
across enough participants to 
reach a quorum right now this 

423
00:27:00,260 --> 00:27:03,540
this information can be can be 
pushed on chain to the Oracle. 

424
00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:07,660
The Oracle will process all of 
the attested to data, right, and

425
00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:11,700
then publish that, publish that 
piece of data, either publish 

426
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:18,810
that that price. 
So typically it's very, very 

427
00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:22,410
important, right or or not, I 
shouldn't say typically no, it 

428
00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:28,130
is very, very important that the
validators you choose are very 

429
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:32,050
credible, right. 
And and this is something that 

430
00:27:32,410 --> 00:27:36,130
you know some protocols are very
open about, right? 

431
00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:40,330
Who is, who are the validators 
or in the cases of some Oracle 

432
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:44,110
protocols, who is the validator?
So in terms of Chronicle, right,

433
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:51,590
we we've kind of gone to this 
approach of saying, look there 

434
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:55,830
is a whole ecosystem of taps 
that people use every day, 

435
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:58,710
right? 
Maybe you have a Nosis safe, 

436
00:27:59,670 --> 00:28:03,830
maybe you use Matcha swap to to 
trade, right. 

437
00:28:04,390 --> 00:28:07,590
Maybe you have like Argent 
mobile wallet, right? 

438
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:12,420
Maybe you use DFI Saver right to
manage all of your DFI 

439
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:15,700
positions. 
And so people have built up like

440
00:28:15,980 --> 00:28:21,580
an implicit trust into these 
protocols And so who better to 

441
00:28:21,580 --> 00:28:27,020
run the validators for an Oracle
protocol powering DFI than all 

442
00:28:27,020 --> 00:28:29,980
of the, you know, actors in the 
ecosystem, all of these 

443
00:28:29,980 --> 00:28:34,020
protocols themselves. 
So we have like so Chronicles 

444
00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:37,860
validator set right consists of,
you know, people like 0X 

445
00:28:37,860 --> 00:28:46,140
protocol or DYDX or getcoin, 
ether scan, INFURA, Gnosis and a

446
00:28:46,140 --> 00:28:48,420
handful of others, right. 
And and we want to keep 

447
00:28:48,820 --> 00:28:52,460
expanding that that validator 
set and and kind of like what 

448
00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:56,180
we're going for is that is we 
want to be able to go to the 

449
00:28:56,180 --> 00:29:00,700
community and be able to say 
here's an Oracle and you can 

450
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:06,140
trust it because it's so like 
powered by the community right. 

451
00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:11,340
And even though you know in 
theory right you can always have

452
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:14,020
an Oracle attack right. 
You can always have the the 

453
00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:18,940
validators kind of try to do a 
malicious attestation right 

454
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:28,030
attesting to to incorrect data. 
It it kind of in, in practice if

455
00:29:28,030 --> 00:29:32,310
you have enough of the, if you 
have a big enough validator set 

456
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:37,390
of all of the biggest actors in 
crypto, you kind of just negate 

457
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:40,630
any anything like that ever 
happening, right, Because it 

458
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:43,150
would be like the industry kind 
of just like cannibalizing 

459
00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:45,510
itself and like swallowing its 
own tail. 

460
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:50,430
So our our kind of mission right
is just to kind of on board 

461
00:29:50,430 --> 00:29:53,270
everyone that you know feels 
very strongly that we need to 

462
00:29:53,270 --> 00:29:59,190
have like a truly decentralized 
Oracle that that we can that we 

463
00:29:59,190 --> 00:30:02,390
can we all don't have to worry 
about you know this this Oracle 

464
00:30:02,390 --> 00:30:06,030
attack vector anymore and that 
that want to be a part of that. 

465
00:30:06,030 --> 00:30:09,830
And I would say, you know, come 
talk to us, let's add you, let's

466
00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:14,550
you know have you become a 
chronicle validator And you know

467
00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:16,870
you can even use chronicle 
yourself in your own protocol 

468
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:20,870
right and and dogfood it. 
Yeah, that's actually very 

469
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:23,710
interesting, like speaking also 
from experience, like running. 

470
00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:27,850
Chaining operator with Coros and
like sort of this model of where

471
00:30:28,450 --> 00:30:30,970
more the infrastructure 
providers are more like 

472
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:34,970
professional validators or like 
staking companies that run like 

473
00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:39,410
infrastructure or on the daily 
basis versus like this model of 

474
00:30:39,570 --> 00:30:44,050
letting the devs run it. 
And I think in Pith, actually a 

475
00:30:44,050 --> 00:30:49,410
lot of their sort of validators 
I guess initially at least were 

476
00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:52,050
like actually the data feed, the
providers that actually. 

477
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,840
Generate let's say the price 
data, so literally the exchanges

478
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,200
and things like that. 
So I guess there's like 

479
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,040
different like participants you 
can choose. 

480
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,280
Can you maybe speak a bit about,
you know, are there issues maybe

481
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,280
with like availability, if it's 
like run by, you know, people 

482
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,920
that don't run infrastructure as
their core business or you know,

483
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,160
how how are you thinking about 
these things? 

484
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,040
Or should you have like maybe 
validators from all these 

485
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,760
different constituents? 
Or you know? 

486
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,640
I guess, yeah. 
Curious. 

487
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,640
Do you know what you think? 
So, so I think you, you really 

488
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200
want to just design A protocol 
that's resilient. 

489
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,200
So you know the protocol is 
designed that it's fine if like 

490
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,480
a handful of validators go 
offline, right? 

491
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:43,480
It's, it's, it's designed to 
expect that kind of scenario. 

492
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,680
Now in terms of like do we 
actually see that happening very

493
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,760
often? 
No, not really. 

494
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,040
These protocols run an enormous 
amount of infrastructure 

495
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,120
internally and they're they're 
very good at running infra and 

496
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,440
they have entire, you know 
DevOps teams to to monitor this 

497
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,200
infra and keep everything 
online. 

498
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,360
So in practice, right, we, we 
don't really see that happening 

499
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,840
very often they're they're very 
adept. 

500
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,400
But but I would caution is like 
why do people necessarily trust 

501
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
infrastructure companies as 
validators? 

502
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,960
Sure, they're good at running 
infra that stays online from a 

503
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,040
trust requirement. 
What like like the security of 

504
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,480
your Oracle is relying on these 
entities that are your 

505
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,880
validators to be, you know, good
honest actors that you know the 

506
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,960
user either the DAP or you know 
the end user that's using the 

507
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,200
Oracle or the end user of that 
DAP, right. 

508
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,960
That they have some kind of, you
know, trust relationship with. 

509
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,500
And I would argue that these 
infrastructure companies are 

510
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:51,700
relatively unknown and they 
don't really have like a 

511
00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:57,100
reputation for integrity. 
And it it kind of seems strange 

512
00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:01,620
to me that we would like you 
know, build these like 

513
00:33:01,620 --> 00:33:04,820
decentralized Oracle protocols 
and then outsource the security 

514
00:33:04,820 --> 00:33:09,020
to these like relatively unknown
validators, right, that don't 

515
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:11,260
really have any reputation to to
protect. 

516
00:33:12,780 --> 00:33:14,740
What kind of like are you 
talking about like? 

517
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:17,540
You know, there's a service 
company specifically or some 

518
00:33:17,540 --> 00:33:23,020
other sort of actor here. 
So what Felix was alluding to is

519
00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:28,100
that there's a ton of like 
entities in the space that just 

520
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,900
run infrastructure, right? 
Maybe it's staking 

521
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,140
infrastructure, or maybe it's 
RPC infrastructure. 

522
00:33:34,140 --> 00:33:37,260
Or maybe it's just like hosting 
in general. 

523
00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:41,930
Or they just run validators for 
a bunch of different chains, 

524
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:42,650
right? 
Yeah. 

525
00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:46,290
Like a, like a figment or a 
chorus or a, you know, kiln or 

526
00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:48,170
anyone of these companies. 
Yeah, sure. 

527
00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:51,370
And so you you think that these 
companies have have generally 

528
00:33:51,370 --> 00:33:53,490
low reputation and can't can't 
be trusted to run 

529
00:33:53,490 --> 00:33:56,770
infrastructure. 
I I think as a user you should 

530
00:33:56,770 --> 00:33:59,810
be always questioning like who 
are the validators, like that 

531
00:33:59,810 --> 00:34:04,290
should be your first question 
when trying to choose a 

532
00:34:04,570 --> 00:34:07,850
protocol, right? 
And I think it's quite clear 

533
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:11,199
that if you compare, you know, 
like the amount of implicit 

534
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:16,320
trust that a user has in, you 
know, top leaders in the space 

535
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,159
like someone like Gnosis or Dydx
or Bitcoin or Ether Scan, right.

536
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:27,719
That you know, that reputation 
and that need to protect that 

537
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,080
reputation by those by those 
different protocols is much 

538
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,560
higher than, you know, an 
infrastructure company that 

539
00:34:37,170 --> 00:34:39,370
seems like are just spinning up 
by the dozen. 

540
00:34:39,810 --> 00:34:42,929
Nobody really knows who they 
necessarily are. 

541
00:34:42,929 --> 00:34:47,130
They're not very public facing 
and they could just kind of like

542
00:34:47,850 --> 00:34:51,570
spin up if if they do, you know,
run into any reputational 

543
00:34:51,570 --> 00:34:54,250
problems, right. 
They just rebrand, spin up a new

544
00:34:54,250 --> 00:34:57,730
entity somewhere else, right. 
And you know, back to business 

545
00:34:57,730 --> 00:35:02,330
is normal, right? 
There's the the incentives, like

546
00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:05,860
us being a validator, right, and
being an honest validator right 

547
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:10,220
are really tied to do you have a
reputation to protect? 

548
00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:15,860
And in the case of many of these
validators, right, I don't think

549
00:35:15,860 --> 00:35:18,500
they do. 
I mean I don't know if I would 

550
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,180
fully agree with that. 
Maybe you feel like you have a 

551
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:23,780
different view on this, I mean 
or certainly you have a view on 

552
00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:25,140
this, this you work for first 
one. 

553
00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:29,260
But I feel I feel like validator
infrastructure companies do 

554
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:33,400
place a lot of it, at least in. 
Well from the perspective of 

555
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,800
like where I know infrastructure
validator companies, right. 

556
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,480
So like in Cosmos we we have a 
lot of infrastructure companies 

557
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,920
that run infrastructure that run
validators and and other sources

558
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,240
of infrastructure and they do 
place a whole lot of importance 

559
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,960
in their reputation certainly 
through their involvement in in 

560
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,640
governance, being good stewards 
of the ecosystem in terms of 

561
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,440
like contributing to open source
software etc. 

562
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,540
Like, sure, there are lots of. 
Maybe you know less reputable 

563
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:05,020
companies or individuals or like
semi professional validators 

564
00:36:05,020 --> 00:36:07,420
that are running infra. 
But by and large I feel like 

565
00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:10,660
infrastructure companies. 
I mean their business is right. 

566
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:14,100
So like their long term, their 
long term incentive is to build 

567
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:16,540
a company and so build 
reputation and maintain that 

568
00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:21,100
reputation. 
Yeah, so, so I think in the end 

569
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:24,940
the point that we can all agree 
on is that like the validator 

570
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:28,900
set matters, right. 
And that's absolutely or for any

571
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:32,380
Oracle protocol, right, From a 
technology perspective, right. 

572
00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:36,820
You can, you can always fork the
technology, but you can't fork 

573
00:36:36,820 --> 00:36:40,420
the network, right. 
And so the, the really 

574
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:45,060
differentiating factor that you 
will have as an Oracle protocol 

575
00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:49,300
is like you know what is the 
value of your validator set, 

576
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:53,280
right. 
How expansive is it, you know, 

577
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,640
what is the like, you know, both
the individual reputation and 

578
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,960
the aggregate reputation and 
the, the number of validators in

579
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,240
this set, right. 
And and that's really your 

580
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,880
remote, right. 
Then that's why, you know, at 

581
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,040
Chronicle we're kind of placing 
like a huge value on just, you 

582
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,520
know, onboarding more and more 
of these, of these highly 

583
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,120
credible validators. 
Yeah, I think it's really 

584
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,000
interesting this discussion for 
sure, I guess in in general. 

585
00:37:21,470 --> 00:37:24,230
The, the interesting thing I 
think for you guys in a way 

586
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:28,990
seems to be lying also in that 
the complexity of the protocol 

587
00:37:28,990 --> 00:37:32,590
or also like that it's possible 
to run potentially like 

588
00:37:32,590 --> 00:37:36,470
relatively easily for these 
other actors. 

589
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:40,870
Or like can you maybe describe a
bit because like I guess from 

590
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:43,990
experience running a bunch of 
different networks at some point

591
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:48,510
becomes like a big issue and you
have like you have to have to 

592
00:37:48,510 --> 00:37:50,150
focus on that and obviously all 
these companies you're 

593
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:52,160
mentioning. 
They have like products to build

594
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,600
and like other things to focus 
on. 

595
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,400
And I don't, I wonder, well, I 
guess maybe because they're like

596
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,520
building on this protocol, 
they're running it and the 

597
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,520
Oracle is important enough or 
maybe it's easy enough to run, I

598
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:03,840
guess. 
Yeah. 

599
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,120
Curious to hear how you're 
achieving that. 

600
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,240
So from the validator 
perspective is they're very, 

601
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,640
they're blockchain agnostic, 
right? 

602
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,320
Remember earlier I was saying 
like, what is a validator? 

603
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,200
Or in chronic lingo, what does 
the feed do? 

604
00:38:20,970 --> 00:38:24,090
They're just querying data and 
then they're signing it and 

605
00:38:24,090 --> 00:38:26,850
they're pushing it to this 
peer-to-peer pool, right? 

606
00:38:26,890 --> 00:38:29,570
That's all they do, right? 
So they're not even interacting 

607
00:38:29,570 --> 00:38:34,770
with a particular chain, right? 
So if Chronicle wants to expand 

608
00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:39,130
to, you know, 20-30 different 
blockchains, it doesn't mean 

609
00:38:39,130 --> 00:38:42,410
that the validator actually 
needs to run 20 or 30 different,

610
00:38:42,410 --> 00:38:43,890
you know, blockchain notes, 
right? 

611
00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:49,410
They're, they're they're they're
agnostic from from their point 

612
00:38:49,410 --> 00:38:53,750
of view And so that really 
limits the complexity of what 

613
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:59,750
they need to run, right. 
And so it really it's the relay 

614
00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:04,030
kind of side of Okay taking all 
of this data from this 

615
00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:07,670
peer-to-peer pool and pushing it
all chain right. 

616
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:11,990
And a relay only needs to 
support the chains that it wants

617
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:15,070
to support, right. 
So if it just wants to do 

618
00:39:16,070 --> 00:39:21,350
Polygon ZKVM, it can do that. 
If it wants to do Ethereum VM, 

619
00:39:21,350 --> 00:39:27,150
and I don't know something like 
Mantle or base chain, right, it 

620
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:30,590
can do that? 
Right. 

621
00:39:30,590 --> 00:39:32,870
So there's like actually a 
second sort of row with the 

622
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:35,510
Relay more or less and then you 
have to, I guess that makes a 

623
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:39,910
lot of sense. 
And then in terms of the theme 

624
00:39:39,910 --> 00:39:42,670
model or like I guess visible, 
which is I think in the Oracle 

625
00:39:42,670 --> 00:39:47,590
space generally quite a 
interesting topic since a lot of

626
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:51,690
the protocols. 
Run on these oracles, a lot of 

627
00:39:51,690 --> 00:39:56,250
value rides on them, but kind of
no one wants to pay for it more 

628
00:39:56,250 --> 00:39:58,010
or less. 
So you sort of have to finance 

629
00:39:58,010 --> 00:40:01,690
it or like. 
And yeah, I would be curious to 

630
00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:05,090
hear your thoughts how it's kind
of thinking about this, how you 

631
00:40:06,450 --> 00:40:08,410
feel this play out in the 
future. 

632
00:40:08,410 --> 00:40:11,850
Also, is it ever always going to
stay as it is right now that it 

633
00:40:11,850 --> 00:40:15,290
needs to be like sort of 
subsidized or yeah, how do you, 

634
00:40:15,330 --> 00:40:19,540
where do you see this going? 
I I think that's an amazing 

635
00:40:19,540 --> 00:40:25,580
question because it's a it's so 
creative like what we what we do

636
00:40:25,580 --> 00:40:29,580
in the Oracle space. 
So after kind of going through 

637
00:40:29,580 --> 00:40:32,260
the right we talked earlier 
about right in the bull market 

638
00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:36,380
you had these these crazy high 
gas prices right and the Oracle 

639
00:40:36,380 --> 00:40:39,620
protocols who were not making 
any money right. 

640
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:44,660
We're just kind of like bleeding
VC cash, right, had we're 

641
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:47,780
spending millions of dollars a 
year just on the gas, right. 

642
00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:53,020
And so all everyone kind of 
collectively noticed Oh well 

643
00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:57,780
this is not sustainable, right. 
And and started introducing 

644
00:40:57,780 --> 00:40:59,740
those measures that we talked 
about earlier, right. 

645
00:40:59,740 --> 00:41:02,300
You know, reducing the number of
validators, right, to make the 

646
00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:05,660
transaction cost cheaper, 
reducing the frequency with 

647
00:41:05,660 --> 00:41:10,540
which the the Oracle updates all
to try to kind of keep the cost 

648
00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:13,870
down. 
And so in particular when it 

649
00:41:13,870 --> 00:41:17,390
comes to like monetizing 
Oracle's, I think there's a 

650
00:41:17,710 --> 00:41:23,350
pretty clear path to 
monetization, right, in terms of

651
00:41:23,350 --> 00:41:27,710
just a subscription, right. 
It's an Oracle as a service, 

652
00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:30,430
right. 
And you can pay on some cadence,

653
00:41:30,430 --> 00:41:33,990
right, Either on a monthly, you 
can have some kind of monthly 

654
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:38,870
deal, annual deal, I don't know,
per block, right, to have access

655
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:39,830
to this Oracle. 
So. 

656
00:41:39,830 --> 00:41:41,470
So that part's not very 
complicated. 

657
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,560
I think what is kind of 
complicated is like the meta 

658
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:53,320
game surrounding, like the 
constantly changing context of 

659
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,000
the the crypto macro 
environment, right? 

660
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,680
So, you know, you can imagine 
right during the bull market, 

661
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,160
right when VC's are funding a 
bunch of companies, right? 

662
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,440
All of these companies or 
protocols, right, have a lot of 

663
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,280
cash, right? 
They're very much willing to pay

664
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,200
the, you know, sometimes 
exorbitant costs of of these 

665
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,280
oracles. 
You look at kind of the current 

666
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,360
environment, right, where, you 
know, the VC funding market has 

667
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,080
has been rather tight and you're
seeing teams and protocols 

668
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,800
needing to, you know, tighten up
the belts, right. 

669
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,880
You're seeing them do things 
like layoffs, right, to extend 

670
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,400
their runway. 
And they really are looking for 

671
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,120
a way to like reduce costs, 
right. 

672
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,200
And the one of those areas that 
they look at is, is oracles, 

673
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,320
right. 
And so there's kind of two 

674
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,960
interesting effects I think 
we've seen in the the past year.

675
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,760
So one is Oracle protocols kind 
of recognizing that their 

676
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,600
potential customers don't 
necessarily have the money to 

677
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,600
pay for this stuff and the 
Oracle protocol may or may not 

678
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,560
have the the capital right to to
subsidize this like in the red 

679
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,470
for for some period of time. 
And So what you really saw was 

680
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:17,390
this proliferation of like pull 
oracles which were right. 

681
00:43:17,390 --> 00:43:21,310
So instead of the Oracle 
protocol pushing the data to 

682
00:43:21,310 --> 00:43:25,750
this Oracle and now someone can 
just use the Oracle, it becomes 

683
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:28,910
the protocol itself that is 
using the Oracle that is like 

684
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:32,870
doing the actual push updates to
the Oracle, right. 

685
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:36,490
So still using the same data 
from the validators, it's just 

686
00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:40,450
instead of the Oracle protocol 
pushing it right, it's the 

687
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:42,250
protocol that's using the 
Oracle. 

688
00:43:42,650 --> 00:43:46,330
But what's really happening is 
that what the protocol that's 

689
00:43:46,330 --> 00:43:50,290
using the Oracle protocol will 
do is offload that cost to their

690
00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:55,010
users, right? 
So like if you use a protocol, 

691
00:43:55,010 --> 00:43:59,830
right, it's almost like a hidden
tax, like you get Oracle update 

692
00:43:59,830 --> 00:44:02,310
like bundled into your 
transaction, right? 

693
00:44:02,310 --> 00:44:06,190
And as a user, you may or may 
not even know that you're paying

694
00:44:06,190 --> 00:44:09,870
for this, right? 
And so from an Oracle provider 

695
00:44:09,870 --> 00:44:14,310
perspective, this is attractive 
because now you don't have to 

696
00:44:14,310 --> 00:44:17,630
have this volatility in gas 
prices which is determining if 

697
00:44:17,630 --> 00:44:19,350
you're like in the green or in 
the red. 

698
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:25,030
From a DAP point of view, it's 
great because you're getting 

699
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:27,190
oracles, but you're not actually
paying for them. 

700
00:44:28,210 --> 00:44:30,090
And then from the user 
perspective, kind of you're 

701
00:44:30,090 --> 00:44:32,850
getting screwed, but you maybe 
don't even know it. 

702
00:44:34,490 --> 00:44:37,650
So, so I and then from a 
marketing perspective, this is 

703
00:44:37,650 --> 00:44:42,010
all kind of dressed up as like 
it's an ondemand Oracle, you 

704
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:43,970
know? 
There's no wasted update. 

705
00:44:44,330 --> 00:44:47,810
It only the Oracle only updates 
what exactly? 

706
00:44:47,810 --> 00:44:50,930
When a user wants to like, use 
your protocol, right? 

707
00:44:50,930 --> 00:44:56,210
Like it's seen as very like no 
waste or something, but it's 

708
00:44:56,210 --> 00:44:58,170
mostly just marketing spit, 
right. 

709
00:44:58,570 --> 00:45:01,410
It's really just a way for 
everyone to kind of like just be

710
00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:04,690
like pass the buck around in 
terms of I'm not paying for that

711
00:45:05,090 --> 00:45:09,010
right. 
And then the the second well and

712
00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:11,850
and I will say like a little 
personal remark, I think this is

713
00:45:11,850 --> 00:45:15,810
very shortsighted. 
I think in the startup world, 

714
00:45:15,930 --> 00:45:19,450
typically the business model is 
you want to subsidize the cost 

715
00:45:19,450 --> 00:45:26,530
that your users or your 
customers have to, to accelerate

716
00:45:26,530 --> 00:45:29,500
growth, right. 
If you look at, you know the 

717
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:33,020
early days of Uber, right, they 
were using VC cash to sell you 

718
00:45:33,260 --> 00:45:35,500
rides, right? 
For less than it cost them, 

719
00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:37,700
right? 
And that's how you bootstrap 

720
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:41,060
product market fit for a for a 
new product, right. 

721
00:45:41,620 --> 00:45:44,220
Same thing with all of these 
like food delivery apps, right? 

722
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:46,460
They got a lot of traction 
because at the beginning they 

723
00:45:46,460 --> 00:45:49,220
were really cheap and now that 
they're charging you for the 

724
00:45:49,220 --> 00:45:51,940
actual cost, right? 
Everyone's like why am I paying 

725
00:45:51,940 --> 00:45:56,420
$40.00 for like delivery of a 
pizza and like some some cheesy 

726
00:45:56,420 --> 00:46:00,740
bread or something right? 
And this is like the antithesis 

727
00:46:00,740 --> 00:46:03,180
of that, right? 
This is like these pull oracles 

728
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:07,220
are like you're adding like a 
tax to those users right? 

729
00:46:07,820 --> 00:46:11,380
And while maybe at the current 
gas prices it's not very 

730
00:46:11,380 --> 00:46:16,780
noticeable when gas prices start
to increase again and they will,

731
00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:23,820
when you start getting back to 
102 hundred 300 way, it's really

732
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:27,860
going to start to cannibalize 
the user base of these protocols

733
00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:30,980
because the users are just going
to be like this is too expensive

734
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:33,980
to use, right. 
It's the cost to use this 

735
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:37,220
protocol is more than the 
utility than that I'm getting 

736
00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:40,660
from it, right. 
And so, so I think these the 

737
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:44,100
polar Oracles are kind of like a
forbidden fruit in that sense 

738
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:47,820
and that it seems like a like a 
magical solution with no 

739
00:46:47,820 --> 00:46:53,480
downside, but it's it can be 
very dangerous kind of going 

740
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,000
forward. 
And and so the the second I, I 

741
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,760
did mention that there's two 
kind of things that we've seen 

742
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,760
change in the meta that the 
second one is that Oracle 

743
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,560
protocols have gone from you 
know after having this 

744
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,720
realization of saying well the 
daps themselves don't 

745
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:15,200
necessarily have the money to 
pay for Oracles who has money 

746
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,600
right now. 
And they look at like all of 

747
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,040
these new chains, right. 
They look at all of the L2 S, 

748
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,830
they look at all of the the ZK 
roll ups, the optimistic roll 

749
00:47:24,830 --> 00:47:28,430
ups, the maybe alternative layer
ones, right. 

750
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:32,950
And they they, you know, they 
acknowledge that like this is 

751
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:35,870
what money has been shoveled 
into in the past few years. 

752
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:44,110
You know, these chains are very 
cash and token rich and need but

753
00:47:44,110 --> 00:47:47,030
don't have necessarily have an 
ecosystem and they need to spend

754
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:49,190
money to bootstrap that 
ecosystem. 

755
00:47:49,790 --> 00:47:52,630
And so it's actually much 
easier, right, to go to chains 

756
00:47:52,990 --> 00:47:56,030
and to sell them on the Oracle 
services and being and being, 

757
00:47:56,070 --> 00:48:00,390
you know, rightfully so saying 
that look you want to start up 

758
00:48:00,390 --> 00:48:06,070
an ecosystem, but all of these 
Daps on your chain are going to 

759
00:48:06,070 --> 00:48:10,150
need Oracles and they're going 
to have to bear those costs, 

760
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:14,230
right. 
And so if you want to be like a 

761
00:48:14,350 --> 00:48:19,830
catalyst for, for teams being 
able to build on your chain, 

762
00:48:20,110 --> 00:48:25,550
right, you should pay for the 
oracles yourselves, right. 

763
00:48:25,550 --> 00:48:29,270
And so essentially the chains 
become the customers and the 

764
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:31,950
Daps that are using the Oracle 
become the users, right. 

765
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:34,470
So it's interesting that you 
have like this user customer 

766
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:39,750
kind of kind of split ultimately
I don't think the chains want to

767
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:43,710
be in this position where they 
are permanently kind of paying 

768
00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:47,020
for Oracle infrastructure. 
So, so I don't think it long 

769
00:48:47,020 --> 00:48:52,020
term it makes sense anyway, but 
but in the end, right, someone 

770
00:48:52,020 --> 00:48:56,180
is always deriving value from 
the Oracle and so someone will 

771
00:48:56,180 --> 00:48:59,740
be willing to pay for it, right.
Ultimately, I do think that will

772
00:48:59,740 --> 00:49:04,620
be the daps once they do find 
find traction. 

773
00:49:06,660 --> 00:49:11,700
Now I want to ask you about the 
the use of oracles in in app 

774
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:13,620
chains. 
I don't know what I think you 

775
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:17,680
follow this but. 
In say like in a Cosmos ICK 

776
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:24,480
chain there there's been some, 
there have been some changes to 

777
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,400
essentially the the the protocol
where the the consensus talks to

778
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,800
the applications. 
This protocol called a BCI and 

779
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:37,960
and so validators are now able 
to. 

780
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,640
Effectively add Oracle data 
price feed data in their blocks 

781
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,520
and the other validators in the 
in consensus also vote on this 

782
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,520
data along with the block 
information. 

783
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,960
And so effectively what this 
means is that app chains can now

784
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,560
kind of run their own oracles. 
They can sort of like ask their 

785
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,480
validators to provide price feed
data and and not have to rely on

786
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,180
an external third party service.
Is this something you guys are 

787
00:50:06,180 --> 00:50:07,860
thinking about? 
And how do you see the use of 

788
00:50:07,860 --> 00:50:12,220
oracles and you know here's our 
contracts versus roll ups versus

789
00:50:12,220 --> 00:50:18,020
you know, app chains, Sure. 
So, so I think what's important 

790
00:50:18,020 --> 00:50:24,180
like to to convey, right is that
as an Oracle provider you don't 

791
00:50:24,420 --> 00:50:27,580
like I have my own personal 
views of like you know what 

792
00:50:27,860 --> 00:50:33,660
chains or you know or kind of 
chain types, I'm bullish on or 

793
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:36,680
bearish on. 
But as an Oracle provider, 

794
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,680
right, we don't really make 
those kind of bets, right, in 

795
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,640
terms of who will succeed or who
will lose. 

796
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,640
You kind of just try to support 
everybody, right. 

797
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,520
So it doesn't matter, right, who
who wins and loses, right. 

798
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:56,560
So from that perspective, right,
you always want to think of 

799
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,400
Oracle protocols from like a 
general mechanism point of view,

800
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,420
like what is an implementation 
that basically is general 

801
00:51:05,420 --> 00:51:08,940
purpose that scales across every
chain, right, every user base, 

802
00:51:09,340 --> 00:51:12,060
every ecosystem of daps that is 
out there. 

803
00:51:12,220 --> 00:51:15,860
And so I definitely do think 
that there are interesting 

804
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:21,060
synergies like within certain 
chain ecosystems, right, Like in

805
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:23,660
terms of like what you 
mentioned, right, with Cosmos, 

806
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:28,470
IBC, right, validators being 
able to to send in the test 

807
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:31,990
data, right in the EDM world, 
right. 

808
00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:35,830
You can you have like these 
native message bridges and 

809
00:51:35,830 --> 00:51:41,110
there's interesting applications
that you can do on those like 

810
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:43,870
specific chains or on those 
specific chain types. 

811
00:51:44,830 --> 00:51:48,510
But as an Oracle provider like 
you really want to stay as as 

812
00:51:48,510 --> 00:51:52,990
general as possible and just 
kind of support one 

813
00:51:53,390 --> 00:51:55,830
implementation. 
Because the the moment you start

814
00:51:55,830 --> 00:51:59,150
to try to support multiple 
different implementations, 

815
00:52:00,670 --> 00:52:02,190
things start to get really 
dangerous. 

816
00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:09,590
The context of different chains 
in terms of how their 

817
00:52:09,590 --> 00:52:13,910
environments work and what like 
the the gotchas are in terms of,

818
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:17,550
you know, even simple things 
like overflows and and 

819
00:52:17,550 --> 00:52:20,590
underflows. 
Or the implementation. 

820
00:52:20,590 --> 00:52:27,060
Like you can have, for example, 
multiple EVM chains, right, that

821
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:31,700
say that they're all EVM, but 
under the hood the 

822
00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:33,740
implementation is different, 
right? 

823
00:52:33,740 --> 00:52:37,740
And if you're not aware of these
minute differences, you can 

824
00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:39,100
really get yourself into 
trouble. 

825
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:44,660
And so you really want to have 
one implementation that you're 

826
00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:47,620
extremely confident in, right? 
That you can devote kind of your

827
00:52:47,620 --> 00:52:51,930
entire security budget to to 
auditing, to doing right 

828
00:52:51,930 --> 00:52:59,090
bounties, pen testing rather 
than this dangerous game of like

829
00:52:59,090 --> 00:53:02,210
Oh well we have this Oracle 
that's specific for Cosmos and 

830
00:53:02,210 --> 00:53:05,250
we have this one that's specific
for Solana and we have this one 

831
00:53:05,250 --> 00:53:08,970
that's specific for EVM and we 
have this one that's specific 

832
00:53:08,970 --> 00:53:13,410
for like the move based 
ecosystem of chains and and 

833
00:53:13,810 --> 00:53:18,400
right starting to like port 
features right and implementing 

834
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,120
them like multiple times across 
all of these implementations. 

835
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:22,880
It's a it's a recipe for 
disaster. 

836
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,120
And so while while we would love
to take advantage of some of 

837
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,000
these like really unique and 
really powerful primitives of 

838
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,400
these chains, the the game 
theory calculus just doesn't 

839
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,160
really play out that way and we 
have to think much more. 

840
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,440
Much more general, so let's talk
about the the technical aspects 

841
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,480
of Chronicle a little bit. 
So. 

842
00:53:44,290 --> 00:53:46,090
You, you leverage Schnorr 
signatures. 

843
00:53:46,090 --> 00:53:49,250
So maybe it we wanted to talk a 
little bit about how you're 

844
00:53:49,250 --> 00:53:54,050
using Schnorr. 
But maybe first we could start 

845
00:53:54,050 --> 00:53:57,170
by just reminding getting a 
reminder of like what are 

846
00:53:57,170 --> 00:54:01,210
Schnorr signatures, how 
different they are from ECSA and

847
00:54:01,730 --> 00:54:05,370
maybe you could lead use that to
lead into how you're you're 

848
00:54:05,370 --> 00:54:07,810
leveraging Schnorr in the 
signing scheme. 

849
00:54:09,410 --> 00:54:14,570
Sure, so sure signatures are a 
signature aggregation scheme. 

850
00:54:15,450 --> 00:54:21,050
So that is to say, you can have 
one signature that is 

851
00:54:21,050 --> 00:54:23,890
representative of multiple 
signatures. 

852
00:54:25,250 --> 00:54:32,770
And so you know, in contrast to 
ECDSA where you have like it's 

853
00:54:32,770 --> 00:54:37,220
like a one to one relationship, 
right, one validator signed, you

854
00:54:37,220 --> 00:54:39,420
know a test and it generates one
signature. 

855
00:54:39,420 --> 00:54:42,860
And so if you have N validators,
you have N signatures. 

856
00:54:43,780 --> 00:54:47,500
With short signatures you can 
have N validators and is always 

857
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:51,700
ends up as one signature. 
And what's like incredibly 

858
00:54:51,780 --> 00:54:57,180
powerful about this property, 
right, is that it leads to an 

859
00:54:57,180 --> 00:54:58,660
enormous amount of data 
compression. 

860
00:54:59,620 --> 00:55:06,690
And when you look at some of the
constraints of of blockchains, 

861
00:55:07,130 --> 00:55:12,970
right, the amount of data is is 
one of the primary drivers of of

862
00:55:12,970 --> 00:55:15,930
cost, right. 
If you look at the composition 

863
00:55:15,930 --> 00:55:20,770
of what a transaction on layer 
two costs, the innovation of 

864
00:55:20,770 --> 00:55:25,210
layer two is, is that compute is
incredibly cheap but data like 

865
00:55:25,370 --> 00:55:29,970
the the data that you pass to a 
smart contract is incredibly 

866
00:55:29,970 --> 00:55:32,090
expensive. 
And the reason for that is 

867
00:55:32,090 --> 00:55:36,050
because all of that data needs 
to be essentially push to a data

868
00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:39,090
availability layer like Ethereum
layer one. 

869
00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:47,810
So that right in in the event of
you know like fraud that all of 

870
00:55:47,810 --> 00:55:49,930
those transactions can be 
replayed, right. 

871
00:55:49,930 --> 00:55:53,130
And and provably, you know you 
can prove that whether fraud or 

872
00:55:53,130 --> 00:55:55,930
or not existed, right in the 
case of in the case of these 

873
00:55:55,930 --> 00:56:00,930
roll ups. 
So if you can compress the data 

874
00:56:01,710 --> 00:56:06,710
in the way that short signatures
do, right, you get enormous, 

875
00:56:06,790 --> 00:56:11,750
enormous cost productions on on 
layer 2 for for for using short 

876
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:13,830
signatures. 
And so that was that's kind of 

877
00:56:13,830 --> 00:56:18,710
like the primary driver of the 
of the gas savings that we did, 

878
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:20,270
right. 
That allows us to have like 

879
00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:24,390
these 80 to 90% gas savings 
compared to some of these other 

880
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:27,070
Oracle protocols. 
Awesome. 

881
00:56:27,070 --> 00:56:31,070
I think we also could still go 
into I guess the the optimistic.

882
00:56:31,730 --> 00:56:36,090
Sort of verification and how 
this challenge protocol works at

883
00:56:36,090 --> 00:56:40,210
another time potentially since 
we're already quite, quite deep 

884
00:56:40,210 --> 00:56:44,530
in the episode by maybe like 
more interestingly for the 

885
00:56:44,530 --> 00:56:49,730
listeners that you know are 
potentially working on projects 

886
00:56:49,730 --> 00:56:51,650
and want to integrate Oracles 
themselves. 

887
00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:57,410
Can you maybe expand, you know 
where Chronicle like sort of is 

888
00:56:57,410 --> 00:57:00,130
deployed right now or like where
can people use Chronicle? 

889
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,400
Data and you know, what sort of 
data do you have available at 

890
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,800
this point and kind of what are 
you working towards? 

891
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,960
Is it, you know, is it just Eve,
is it going to like other 

892
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,280
directions? 
I think that would be a good 

893
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,480
place to sort of start wrapping 
it up. 

894
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:23,160
So in terms of change that we 
support today, we launched this 

895
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,960
new kind of Oracle architecture 
with this short signature 

896
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,690
innovation. 
We just recently launched this 

897
00:57:31,690 --> 00:57:36,050
on Ethereum main net and on 
Polygon CK VM. 

898
00:57:36,530 --> 00:57:41,290
But we're effectively doing like
a layer 2 strategy or we're just

899
00:57:41,290 --> 00:57:45,210
going to be onboarding like all 
of the layer twos, right. 

900
00:57:45,210 --> 00:57:50,530
So when it comes to you know 
anything really that, that that 

901
00:57:50,530 --> 00:57:54,050
you've you've heard of, right, 
in terms of what like Arbitram, 

902
00:57:54,530 --> 00:58:00,720
Optimism Mantle Base chain, 
right, even even something like 

903
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,080
Noses chain, we're going to be 
onboarding these types of layer 

904
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,400
twos incredibly quickly, right. 
So I would expect by the end of 

905
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,000
the year, right, we'll we'll 
basically be supporting all of 

906
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,280
the, all of the main ones. 
So you know I would encourage 

907
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,840
you to to reach out to us right.
Go to our website 

908
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:25,180
chroniclelabs.org and from there
right you can you can find our 

909
00:58:25,180 --> 00:58:27,180
discord you can find our Twitter
right. 

910
00:58:27,860 --> 00:58:32,420
Get in touch with us you know 
let us know what what you need 

911
00:58:33,020 --> 00:58:37,700
and we can we can get you set up
in terms of you know what we 

912
00:58:37,700 --> 00:58:41,780
what we offer right. 
I think there's an enormous 

913
00:58:41,780 --> 00:58:45,100
amount of product market fit 
right in D5 for price oracles, 

914
00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:47,660
right. 
So we we definitely offer this 

915
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,560
but really like our oracles are 
built to be generalized, right. 

916
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:55,640
So we can do any kind of data. 
And so we're even delving into 

917
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:01,080
like the RWA space and doing 
like real world attestations off

918
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,520
like you know even assets that 
are held by custodians right in 

919
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,400
a in a bank, right. 
So we can, we can get really 

920
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,840
crazy with it and it's all 
backed by by the same underlying

921
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,480
you know, secure Oracle 
architecture, right. 

922
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,510
That is securing like the 
billions of dollars to maker. 

923
00:59:20,070 --> 00:59:23,230
Let's maybe just spend, if you 
don't want a few minutes talking

924
00:59:23,230 --> 00:59:25,510
about the real world asset stuff
because I think that's probably 

925
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:28,550
one of the things that a lot of 
people interested in it. 

926
00:59:28,550 --> 00:59:33,870
Certainly it's one of the areas 
that is highly anticipated in 

927
00:59:33,870 --> 00:59:37,510
terms of bringing more liquidity
and more value onto blockchains.

928
00:59:37,950 --> 00:59:39,710
Can you, can you talk a little 
bit more about some of the work 

929
00:59:39,710 --> 00:59:42,870
you're doing there, why you're 
so bullish on, on real world 

930
00:59:42,870 --> 00:59:45,230
assets? 
Sure. 

931
00:59:45,790 --> 00:59:48,590
And I should probably preface 
this by saying I'm I'm bullish 

932
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:54,150
on real world assets in a in a 
very narrow context like I'm I'm

933
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:59,350
going to a lot of conferences at
the moment on panels about RWA 

934
00:59:59,430 --> 01:00:03,510
and there's a lot of people 
pretending or saying talking 

935
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:07,270
about some far-flung future. 
When I'm when I'm talking about 

936
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:11,750
real world assets, I'm talking 
about what they look like right 

937
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:14,770
now. 
In terms of the product market 

938
01:00:14,770 --> 01:00:16,850
fit that they have achieved 
right now. 

939
01:00:18,130 --> 01:00:23,130
So the the context here is right
that you have this divergence of

940
01:00:23,130 --> 01:00:27,050
rates between the real world and
between D5 because in 

941
01:00:27,250 --> 01:00:31,090
traditional finance right rates 
are driven by monetary policy 

942
01:00:31,650 --> 01:00:34,010
right and and to an extent 
liquidity. 

943
01:00:34,650 --> 01:00:40,290
And in D5 rates are driven by 
speculative demand for number go

944
01:00:40,290 --> 01:00:43,370
up. 
And so number has not gone up 

945
01:00:43,410 --> 01:00:47,770
for quite some time, people are 
relatively bearish and so yields

946
01:00:47,770 --> 01:00:53,210
in D Phi are very low. 
And so this prompted a lot of 

947
01:00:54,730 --> 01:00:57,970
protocols in D Phi with very 
large treasuries, right, or you 

948
01:00:57,970 --> 01:01:03,770
know credit protocols like maker
now to look elsewhere, right, to

949
01:01:03,810 --> 01:01:08,210
effectively say, look at the 
calculus of saying like, well, 

950
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:16,920
if we loan die on chain, we can 
get 1.75%, we can get 2% or we 

951
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,640
can loan die off chain, right 
and get like 5-6, seven, 8%. 

952
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,960
And so I think Maker Dow was 
very early in recognizing this 

953
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,680
and and making moves. 
And so at this point, I think 

954
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:33,400
cumulatively maker Dow has 
allocated something like between

955
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:38,460
2:00 and I think almost like 3 
at this point $3 billion into 

956
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:43,140
different real world assets, 
predominantly treasury bills, 

957
01:01:43,620 --> 01:01:45,740
right. 
Because treasury bills are a 

958
01:01:45,740 --> 01:01:49,700
very safe asset, right that if 
as long as you don't have 

959
01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:52,420
liquidity problems, you can just
kind of hold to maturity and 

960
01:01:52,420 --> 01:01:56,500
earn like a very, very high 
yield right on the order of five

961
01:01:56,500 --> 01:02:00,500
plus percent. 
And so you know from the 

962
01:02:00,500 --> 01:02:02,660
perspective of Chronicle right 
when we look at real world 

963
01:02:02,660 --> 01:02:06,700
assets, we're really look we're 
really building for what we see 

964
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:10,510
where we see like the pain 
points today, right. 

965
01:02:10,830 --> 01:02:14,310
Maker is kind of not just 
talking about real world assets 

966
01:02:14,310 --> 01:02:16,150
or planning to do them in the 
future, right. 

967
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:19,430
Maker is doing them right now at
scale like. 

968
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:22,190
And if you think about what is 
the entire real world asset 

969
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:27,390
market in terms of like capital 
delegated, I I think maker 

970
01:02:27,390 --> 01:02:32,270
probably has somewhere between 
like 80 to 90% market share at 

971
01:02:32,270 --> 01:02:35,270
the moment, right. 
And so we're we, we obviously 

972
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:37,640
work, we're the Oracle for 
maker, right. 

973
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,040
We work very closely with maker 
to to solving the problems. 

974
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,560
And so you know we, we think 
we're going to have like a very 

975
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:48,400
big piece of the actual 
practical side of Fairworld 

976
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,360
assets and then use our 
practical experience right, to 

977
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,320
expand that right and offer 
those services to everyone 

978
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:55,880
trying to get into real world 
assets. 

979
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:01,480
Because I I think very few 
people understand like the boots

980
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,600
on the ground problems 
associated with real world 

981
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,290
assets. 
And it fundamentally boils down 

982
01:03:07,290 --> 01:03:11,650
to that protocols, right on 
blockchains, right, don't really

983
01:03:11,650 --> 01:03:15,130
have any insight to what's 
happening off chain and they 

984
01:03:15,130 --> 01:03:20,130
have very few kind of recourse 
mechanisms off chain, right. 

985
01:03:20,610 --> 01:03:24,290
Maybe you have like a foundation
that can serve as a legal entity

986
01:03:24,290 --> 01:03:26,850
as the face, but they are not 
the protocol, right. 

987
01:03:26,850 --> 01:03:30,930
So it's very difficult for a 
protocol to act like 

988
01:03:31,170 --> 01:03:33,130
autonomously in in the real 
world. 

989
01:03:34,220 --> 01:03:37,940
And so especially when it comes 
to credit delegation, right, you

990
01:03:37,940 --> 01:03:41,180
know what recourse do you have 
when someone runs off with your 

991
01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:43,100
money. 
That is like the big question 

992
01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:44,660
when it comes to credit 
delegation. 

993
01:03:44,860 --> 01:03:49,420
And so the, the pain point here 
for a real world asset is how do

994
01:03:49,420 --> 01:03:52,380
you, how does a protocol 
delegate, you know, something on

995
01:03:52,380 --> 01:03:58,100
the scale of billions of dollars
into a real world type of 

996
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,220
infrastructure where it doesn't 
necessarily have the same 

997
01:04:01,220 --> 01:04:05,470
capacity, right, for 
liquidating, you know, in the 

998
01:04:05,470 --> 01:04:07,150
next block like it does on 
chain. 

999
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:12,230
And so really what you have to 
do is like deconstruct like what

1000
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:17,310
does this web of entities look 
like in the real world to create

1001
01:04:17,350 --> 01:04:19,950
a real world asset. 
And typically you'd have 

1002
01:04:20,310 --> 01:04:25,110
something like a trust, which is
kind of like the representative 

1003
01:04:25,150 --> 01:04:27,390
of the the protocol in the real 
world. 

1004
01:04:27,390 --> 01:04:31,630
So you can kind of have the 
trust be subservient to messages

1005
01:04:31,630 --> 01:04:36,160
from that have been ratified by 
a Dow right by by governance. 

1006
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,840
So the the protocol would extend
you know the the money to this 

1007
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,280
trust right. 
The trust then interacts with 

1008
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:47,000
the broker right. 
What securities or structured 

1009
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,120
products are you trying to buy 
right? 

1010
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,320
So you could have a broker, 
right, like someone like block 

1011
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:58,360
tower or I think in the past 
someone like Genesis before they

1012
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,980
before they blew up. 
So the broker, right, will buy 

1013
01:05:01,980 --> 01:05:05,540
and sell, you know whatever, 
whatever kind of structured 

1014
01:05:05,540 --> 01:05:08,700
products or securities you you 
want to purchase, right. 

1015
01:05:08,780 --> 01:05:11,100
And then you have a custodian, 
right. 

1016
01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:14,500
And the custodian is frequently 
someone like like a bank, right.

1017
01:05:14,540 --> 01:05:17,260
And then you may have like an 
auditor, right, who is like 

1018
01:05:17,740 --> 01:05:22,740
auditing the, the activities of 
what, what the bank has in 

1019
01:05:22,740 --> 01:05:25,860
custody or maybe auditing the 
activities of the broker, right.

1020
01:05:26,540 --> 01:05:30,210
And so individually, you don't 
want any, you don't want to 

1021
01:05:30,210 --> 01:05:35,010
trust any of the data that any 
of these different actors kind 

1022
01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:38,450
of report because they kind of 
all have moral hazard, right? 

1023
01:05:38,810 --> 01:05:43,970
If you know maker turns off the 
tap in terms of credit 

1024
01:05:43,970 --> 01:05:48,170
delegation, right, all of them 
will not make any more money, 

1025
01:05:48,170 --> 01:05:50,050
right? 
And the party's over, right. 

1026
01:05:51,170 --> 01:05:54,930
So you don't want to trust any 
of them individually, but as a 

1027
01:05:55,010 --> 01:05:59,150
as a set you can kind of overlap
and like phase shift all of 

1028
01:05:59,150 --> 01:06:02,230
their individual reporting on 
top of each other in a real time

1029
01:06:02,230 --> 01:06:05,630
kind of automated fashion. 
And then you can actually derive

1030
01:06:05,950 --> 01:06:10,350
a like a high confidence in the 
consensus of what actually is in

1031
01:06:10,350 --> 01:06:14,390
the real world and and give that
representation on chain in the 

1032
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:18,750
form of an Oracle, right. 
So in terms of the messages like

1033
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:22,110
of instructions that make our 
governance gave to the trust 

1034
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,480
right, those should be those 
should be symmetrical with the 

1035
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,560
orders that the trust gives to 
the Broker, right. 

1036
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,040
Those instructions that were 
given to the broker right should

1037
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:36,040
be symmetrical with the actual 
purchase and sell orders that 

1038
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:40,960
the broker executed, right. 
With respect to what the bank 

1039
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,400
holds in custody. 
Those should be symmetric to 

1040
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,760
what the the broker, you know 
confirmed right, that they 

1041
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,000
purchased and sold right. 
Same thing with the data that 

1042
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,580
the auditor is reporting, right.
And so as you collectively 

1043
01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:58,060
aggregate all of this 
information, you can come find, 

1044
01:06:58,140 --> 01:07:01,980
you can determine what the kind 
of consensus view is in the in a

1045
01:07:01,980 --> 01:07:05,020
decentralized fashion. 
And so now you can have this 

1046
01:07:05,020 --> 01:07:08,020
data on chain. 
But what's interesting here is 

1047
01:07:08,020 --> 01:07:12,220
it's not necessarily price. 
That is that is the most 

1048
01:07:12,220 --> 01:07:15,820
interesting right you may be 
interested in. 

1049
01:07:15,820 --> 01:07:21,520
You know, what is the yield of 
this RWA bucket you may be 

1050
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:26,840
interested in, you know, what is
the, what is the like the term 

1051
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,480
of a lot of these securities, 
right, especially if you're 

1052
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:33,720
holding like treasury bills, 
right, Treasury bills mature, 

1053
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,080
right. 
And then what do you do? 

1054
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,320
Do you like roll those back into
new treasury bills or do you 

1055
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:43,360
say, hey, you know we want to 
have some more liquidity in the 

1056
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,240
maker protocol, right, let's 
recall some of that, some of 

1057
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:48,190
that money? 
And blocks and we kind of take 

1058
01:07:48,190 --> 01:07:50,150
those sort of credit because 
that data is usually available 

1059
01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:52,230
on chain or right, right in the 
contract. 

1060
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:57,510
You may be interested in the 
composition of the portfolio 

1061
01:07:57,510 --> 01:08:01,030
with respect to exposure to 
certain sectors or certain types

1062
01:08:01,070 --> 01:08:04,030
of securities, right. 
And so now once you have all of 

1063
01:08:04,030 --> 01:08:08,670
this data on chain, the protocol
can react in like an automated 

1064
01:08:08,670 --> 01:08:11,670
fashion, right? 
It can like extend more credit 

1065
01:08:11,710 --> 01:08:13,590
or it can you know, cut off 
credit. 

1066
01:08:14,270 --> 01:08:18,140
It can determine, Oh well this 
bucket that we have over here in

1067
01:08:18,140 --> 01:08:21,180
real world assets is generating 
significantly more yield than 

1068
01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:23,140
this one. 
Let's reallocate some of that 

1069
01:08:23,140 --> 01:08:27,100
capital to here, right. 
And so it enables this enormous 

1070
01:08:27,100 --> 01:08:31,060
amount of like automation that 
that crypto protocols are kind 

1071
01:08:31,060 --> 01:08:33,779
of known for, but now in a real 
world context. 

1072
01:08:33,819 --> 01:08:38,279
And I think that's extremely 
powerful and that's can be 

1073
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:42,720
applied you know in a general 
case at scale to weigh more 

1074
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,720
things and what we see today, 
right, which is just treasury 

1075
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:47,680
bills, right. 
And it can be expanded to weigh 

1076
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:53,840
more context than right just D5 
protocols extending credit right

1077
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,520
in in this case a real world 
asset Oracle is really this 

1078
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:02,600
bridge from piping and data from
the outside world onto a 

1079
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,160
blockchain. 
So now we can kind of achieve 

1080
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:09,560
this cross automation and that's
where the real, the real value 

1081
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:11,760
is going to be. 
It's not going to be that D5 

1082
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:15,399
replaces traditional finance or 
traditional finance like you 

1083
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:17,960
know kills D5. 
It's going to be this hybrid 

1084
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:23,720
system where they both both of 
those realms are able to 

1085
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,920
interact and leverage the the 
strengths of the other. 

1086
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,000
I think that's a great note to 
end on. 

1087
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,600
Thanks. 
Thanks for for expanding on on 

1088
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,210
real world assets I think. 
It's it's one of the things that

1089
01:09:37,210 --> 01:09:42,930
I'm really hopeful that will 
will start coming into you know 

1090
01:09:42,930 --> 01:09:47,490
D5 protocols right where you can
open up say something like a 

1091
01:09:47,529 --> 01:09:53,689
like an Ave. or or or unit swap 
and and be able to to swap like 

1092
01:09:53,689 --> 01:09:57,130
your USDC or your ease for like 
treasury bills for instance. 

1093
01:09:57,130 --> 01:10:02,210
I think that that will be a 
huge, a huge accomplishment for 

1094
01:10:02,210 --> 01:10:03,770
the space if that were to 
happen. 

1095
01:10:05,030 --> 01:10:08,550
Nicholas, thanks so much for 
coming on and and extending our 

1096
01:10:08,550 --> 01:10:11,310
minds about Oracles and 
Chronicle and all the important 

1097
01:10:11,310 --> 01:10:14,150
work you guys are doing and 
hopefully we can get you back on

1098
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:17,630
some more in the future. 
Yeah, it's been, it's been 

1099
01:10:17,630 --> 01:10:18,990
really great guys. 
Thank you. 

1100
01:10:21,190 --> 01:10:22,910
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1101
01:10:23,310 --> 01:10:24,910
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1102
01:10:25,510 --> 01:10:28,270
You can find and subscribe to 
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1103
01:10:28,350 --> 01:10:31,990
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1104
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:33,550
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1105
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:36,110
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1106
01:10:36,110 --> 01:10:40,150
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1107
01:10:40,150 --> 01:10:41,350
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1108
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:44,270
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1109
01:10:44,270 --> 01:10:46,590
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1110
01:10:46,590 --> 01:10:49,910
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1111
01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:51,550
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1112
01:10:51,950 --> 01:10:53,390
And please leave us a review on 
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1113
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:55,910
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1114
01:10:55,910 --> 01:10:58,270
them. 
So thanks so much and we look 

1115
01:10:58,270 --> 01:11:06,190
forward to being back next week.
I want to read. 

1116
01:11:06,590 --> 01:11:09,510
I want to read it.