1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,880 I'm not bullish on any of them because you need like a very 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:08,000 specific set of circumstances to be true for a liquid staking to 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,520 repeat the kind of success story that it has on here. 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,960 The first thing to understand about ETFs in general is like 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,840 they will basically all compete on price. 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,360 That's why staking ETFs are going to have a big advantage 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,440 over non staking ETS just because they can pay you right 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,800 from the rewards like your balance is still going to grow. 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,240 It is actually a very good and like attractive product from 10 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:28,520 talking about restaking and talking about institutional, you 11 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,560 know, demand. Like the problem from here was 12 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,080 like in both cases that the staking setup that Lido gave you 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,960 was not flexible enough, right? It was opinionated. 14 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,840 It was not putting your money in restaking. 15 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,600 You were getting the same returns as everybody else. 16 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,760 We're not able to choose. We are not or red eyes and like 17 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,120 what mainly we release they use and if they use DVT or not. 18 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,880 And so I think the idea of vaults is a very kind of organic 19 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,920 one. Create your own staking setup 20 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,080 with your own not a radars and then have the ability to mint 21 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,880 the liquid sticking token like an RK stake if against that with 22 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,600 a collateral ratio that that is based on on that vaults risk 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,360 profile. Hello and welcome to Epicenter 24 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,960 of the Show, which talks about technologies, projects and 25 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:14,160 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 26 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:19,200 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with HASU, who is a 27 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:24,360 crypto researcher and writer and strategic advisor to Lido. 28 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,120 Of course, Lido's need much of an introduction, although we 29 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,680 will introduce it, but Lido is the leading liquid staking 30 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,400 protocol and one of the leading staking projects. 31 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,120 So really exciting to talk about Lido and, and, and some of the 32 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,200 evolutions that Lido's gone through and that are upcoming 33 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,040 for Lido. So really excited for that. 34 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,280 Now, just before we go and talk with Hazu, we'd like to share a 35 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,120 few words from our sponsors this week. 36 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,720 If you're looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,560 further than Chorus One. More than 150,000 delegators, 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,680 including institutions like Bit Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger 39 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,200 Trust Chorus One with the assets. 40 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,000 They support over 50 block chains and are leaders in 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,200 governance on networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is 42 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,160 responsibly managed. Thanks to the advanced MEV 43 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 44 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,480 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,240 label note, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 46 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,520 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,160 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 48 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,040 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 49 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,520 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,200 Nosys leads innovation with Circles, Nosys Pay and Metri, 51 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,480 reshaping open banking and money. 52 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,920 With Hashi and Nosys VPN, they're building a more 53 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,400 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,600 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Nosys Chain 55 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,960 offers the same development environment as Ethereum with 56 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,040 lower transaction fees. It's supported by over 200,000 57 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,880 validators, making Nosys Chain a reliable and credibly neutral 58 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,400 foundation for your applications. 59 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:11,760 Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis governance, where every voice 60 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,440 matters. Join the Gnosis community in the 61 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,880 Gnosis Dow forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:24,000 Gnosis Chain or secure the network with just one GNO and 63 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,000 affordable hardware. Start your decentralization 64 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,720 journey today at gnosis dot IO. Cool. 65 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,920 How's you actually you've been on before. 66 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,600 It's been 4 year, almost 4 1/2 years, so a long time ago. 67 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,680 It's good to have you back on. Yeah, the episode was a long 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,880 time ago, I think with Kane from Synthetics or something like 69 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:54,800 that, if I remember correctly. Yeah, about liquidity mining. 70 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,400 Yeah, when like all of that started, right? 71 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,720 It's, it's crazy that like liquidity mining was this topic 72 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,200 that like there was a time when liquidity mining was like so new 73 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,600 that we had to discuss it on the podcast, right? 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,960 That's what it meant. Yeah, it was the stone ages of 75 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:16,959 defy back then when you were still using a, a manual, I don't 76 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:21,279 know, living in a cave, but starting to defy. 77 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:23,840 Right. So how? 78 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:25,640 How did you first get involved in crypto? 79 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,680 What's your crypto journey? Yeah, I think the the kind of 80 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,360 short version is I was a professional poker player for 10 81 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,000 years. During that time, you know, what 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,800 started as a hobby and like, you know, an activity where are you? 83 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,000 If you, you know, you were motivated and you were somewhat 84 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,360 intelligent, you could make a decent living. 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,080 Like it became much more, you know, a sport over time, or I 86 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,520 would say like a kind of became professionalized in many ways. 87 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,480 And if you wanted to to be a top player, you had to work with, 88 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,880 you know, what's now known as solvers like kind of type of 89 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,000 like chess computers. But for poker, you had to, you 90 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,040 know, build software. You had to study a lot using the 91 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,120 software, try to improve your game and I over time I became 92 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,160 more and more. You play poker, but then you'd 93 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,600 have software to help you decide what hands to play. 94 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,920 So no. So you weren't allowed to use 95 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,840 any of the software in, you know, in real time. 96 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:32,920 The same way if you go to likechess.com, you're not 97 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,960 allowed to use a chess computer on the side. 98 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,600 That would be considered cheating, right? 99 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:40,200 But with poker, how do you check that and is it sort of an honour 100 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,280 space? So at the time, basically, you 101 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:47,840 know, the kind of poker so of us weren't really commonplace yet, 102 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:50,360 I would say. And the ones that were out there 103 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,400 were like pretty crude. So it was actually not easy 104 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,520 technically I think, to even try to get that to work, to use it 105 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,600 in real time. Today it's a different story. 106 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,200 I like today you can get those things for like, great cheap. 107 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,760 They're very fast. And so, yeah, like today 108 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,720 actually, you know, pretty much anybody could cheat probably an 109 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,400 online poker if they want it. And that's why it's a big reason 110 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,440 why the game is kind of dying. And the the main games are like 111 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,080 the biggest games now are played exclusively between people who 112 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,320 know each other. And it's like reputation based. 113 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,280 And you know, a lot of cases also people just play offline 114 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:34,040 where you maybe you don't have the same challenges, right? 115 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,200 That's interesting, right? That's kind of like maybe 116 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,440 general, you know, it's interesting to think about that 117 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,000 because with AII guess that's going to happen for like all 118 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,480 kinds of stuff, right? They so far had like, humans 119 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,720 compete and then you're like, yeah, this is not really work 120 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,360 for you anymore. Yeah, I mean, did you see this? 121 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,640 I don't know. The other month there was a a 122 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,880 scandal about somebody had like invented a systematic way to 123 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,800 basically cheat in in job interviews online using AI. 124 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,000 So of course, one, we have this issue like all the time, right? 125 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,680 So we have it or first of all, you know, we ask like questions 126 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,760 when people apply, sort of like essay written questions. 127 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,880 And then I think, you know, I mean, our team is like, ah, this 128 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,440 is an AI generated answer. But you know, of course, I don't 129 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,920 know how what's the detection rate is here? 130 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,920 And but then I think we've also had various cases where, you 131 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,880 know, our team like suspected or, or where clearly people 132 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,160 either clearly people are using, you know, live in real time as 133 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,200 they're getting asked questions using like ChatGPT to get their 134 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,880 answers. But then I think in some cases 135 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,520 they're like, OK, that's definitely happening. 136 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,920 But then other cases they're like, not sure. 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,800 And it's very tricky. Yeah. 138 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,480 So I mean, chess had this problem before poker because 139 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,920 chess computers existed, you know, probably a decade or two 140 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,400 before poker like poker service did. 141 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:07,280 And they have, I mean, they have killed like poker chess that's 142 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,560 played for money, like to a big degree like that used to be 143 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,400 played for money, same as backgammon. 144 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,320 And those games got basically solved and like cheating became 145 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,040 too easy. And so, you know, the trust 146 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,120 problem was basically insurmountable. 147 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,040 But there is, there are also forms of chess. 148 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,520 It's called Centaur chess Centaur because you know, it's 149 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,040 like, you know, the Centaur is like half horse, half human, 150 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,600 right? And like a Centaur, a chess is 151 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,840 basically like half human, half AI. 152 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,600 And so it's the idea that, you know, you can have a IS compete 153 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,360 with each other. You can have humans compete with 154 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,679 each other. But if you throw like a human 155 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,920 and an AI together, it's still a challenge, right? 156 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,000 Like, you know, to beat another human and another AI in 157 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,400 combination. And so it's the idea in a lot of 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,360 ways that, you know, yes, like a IS will play a much bigger role, 159 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,280 but like an AI that's somehow bundled with a human or 160 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,720 controlled by a human will always be more effective than 161 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,000 just a human or just an AI. And so that's the case for chess 162 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,400 that like human plus AI beats AI. 163 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Yes, it actually did. Yeah. 164 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,480 Like because I mean, there are many cases where I don't know 165 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,160 how it works now, right? Like, but in in in poker, there 166 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:25,000 were many situations where the AI was actually completely 167 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,880 indifferent between choosing like one of two or one of three 168 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,200 options in a given situation. And whenever something is close, 169 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,960 I think human intuition come, you know, can play a pretty big 170 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,200 role. Also AI like depending on how 171 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,760 good the abstraction was that basically the game was solved on 172 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,400 because you you know poker is too big to solve like the full 173 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,600 game quote UN quote like you have to make a simpler game that 174 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,360 is kind of an abstraction of the bigger game. 175 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Then you can solve that, but then you have this abstraction 176 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,960 step also back right. So because they, you may in the 177 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,040 solution, you see like, oh, I'm supposed to play this situation 178 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,920 in this way. But like, if you're an expert 179 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,080 in, in, in solvers, then you know that the AI probably never 180 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,040 got to look at this exact situation. 181 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,600 This is only part of like a bucket of like 1,000,000 similar 182 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,920 situations that it, it's all grouping together. 183 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,080 And so you know, if you are, if you know these things, then you 184 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,960 can add a lot of kind of intuition and like nuance on top 185 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,000 of maybe what the AI is already disgusting. 186 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,240 I mean, that is, I guess the great hope we all have, No. 187 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:36,480 Is that like somehow, you know, we'll be able to like leverage 188 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:43,000 or merge and cooperate with AI in ways that, you know, we can 189 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,720 amplify what humans can do and and you're not just become made 190 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,080 redundant by the computers. Yeah, I think so. 191 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Right. And this goes back to what we 192 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,320 were talking about in job interviews and so on. 193 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,280 I like to the degree that we're still trying to test human 194 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,920 capability, I mean, we now need to test like human plus AI 195 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,920 capability, right? How good are you in working with 196 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,480 AI? And I mean, the, the most 197 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,560 obvious thing is like the things we test for can become much more 198 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:15,640 complex, right? Like much bigger in scope, 199 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,680 right? You where previously you would 200 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:20,960 send someone like 5 questions to answer, maybe you now give them 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,760 a much more expansive work test that that fully acknowledges 202 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,080 that. That is a great point, right? 203 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,880 Maybe one way to go would be, or maybe that is the inevitable 204 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,680 thing to go is that you say like, hey, we're going to do 205 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,720 this interview and you explicitly are allowed to use AI 206 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,440 and then we're going to see. But I don't know, it's tricky 207 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,480 one too. I guess you'll have to totally 208 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,320 redefine how the interviews work. 209 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,280 Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you can even 210 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,640 include, you know, let me what you use AI or like documents, 211 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,040 you know, give me, give me your, your prompt history, right? 212 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Because even the way that like somebody talks, I'm like, OK, so 213 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:09,080 I, I like a lot, a lot of people I know are saying, I mean, I'm, 214 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,520 I'm not a manager. I'm, I'm more of an IC, but I 215 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:14,920 used to be a manager in the past. 216 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:21,120 And I think the way that you manage people, especially more 217 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,800 junior people, is very similar to basically how you would 218 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,960 prompt an AI. Like I see a lot of parallels. 219 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,240 And I think a lot of my friends who are managers saying the 220 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,320 exact same thing, they really see very little difference 221 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,160 between like how you correctly prompt an AI and how you, you 222 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,480 know, you delegate a task, for example, right? 223 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,280 And you know, that is a thing that you, you know, first of 224 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,240 all, like humans are going to get much better at delegation, I 225 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,640 think, and, and management as a result of having an eye because 226 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,080 all of us have like, you know, 1000 junior employees if we want 227 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,040 like from now on. And you know, you, you can test 228 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,960 those things, right? Like in the past, it used to be 229 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 actually pretty hard to test someone's management skills in 230 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,120 an interview setting. But now you can, you know, you 231 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,880 can have a real kind of simulated management 232 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,720 relationship even just by looking at someone's prompt. 233 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,640 History is very interesting. Yeah. 234 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,520 OK. OK, very interesting. 235 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,400 But let's come back to the top. So the crypto question, so 236 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:28,280 you're playing poker and then. Yeah, so I was playing poker, 237 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,120 but I I realized over time I became, you know, fell more in 238 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,320 love with the studying aspect of the game. 239 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,360 You know, this way of like working with solvers, but like, 240 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,840 mostly like thinking about the game and talking about the game 241 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,840 with other people and kind of like unravelling it. 242 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,680 You know, it's mysteries and, you know, finding new ways to 243 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:53,880 think about it. And, you know, I was always part 244 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,480 of a group with other people and we were kind of coaching each 245 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,480 other and I was coaching and some people. 246 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,960 And, you know, I realized that this coaching, this like 247 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,600 studying and coaching aspect, like I was much more motivated 248 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,320 by learning and teaching other people than I was at some point 249 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,840 by competing. And I knew that, you know, when 250 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,680 I'm done with poker, I want to do that full time. 251 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480 I don't, I didn't know what topic, but I knew basically the 252 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,480 form factor that that activity would have to take. 253 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:28,120 And when I, you know, later found crypto, I like crypto was 254 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,920 always kind of maybe a little just like rights outside my, you 255 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,160 know, my orbit basically. So that I knew a bunch of my 256 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,600 friends were already like buying crypto since 2013, 2014, you 257 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,640 know, making money and dabbling with like trading. 258 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,560 And also we were using it to send funds back and forth 259 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:53,440 occasionally. When I then started to actually 260 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,840 look into it, I very quickly fell down the rabbit hole and 261 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,440 then decided that, you know, this would be the thing that I 262 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,600 want to spend probably the next at least decade of my life on. 263 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,120 And you know, I, I already knew what form factor I wanted that 264 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,200 activity to have. And so I for the first couple of 265 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,320 years, I only basically focused on studying crypto from many 266 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,000 different angles and write about it, tweet about it, make a 267 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,040 podcast about it. And luckily it turned out that 268 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,240 poker, I would say, sorry, crypto is actually uniquely well 269 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,480 suited to such an approach just because it's so complex and so 270 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,160 interdisciplinary. You know, you really need to 271 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,160 kind of understand a lot of different aspects ranging from 272 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,640 economics, politics, law, computer science, game theory, 273 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,880 like the you can look at this from so many different angles 274 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,640 and always find like new interesting ways and lot of good 275 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,280 insights come from putting those different perspectives together. 276 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,160 Yet crypto was still so new as an industry that somebody could 277 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:04,040 come in from like totally kind of the outside and you know, 278 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,880 just by being a generalist, you know, catch up to whatever is 279 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,880 the frontier of that industry or then maybe two years and then 280 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,440 start making net new contributions to the industry, 281 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,880 right? And I think when you come into, 282 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,960 I don't know like math or physics or real like certain 283 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,040 really many that you even AI probably like come into many 284 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,400 other industries, you won't be able to do that. 285 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:37,280 What were the things maybe before Lido that you know, the 286 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,880 the rabbit holes you've been down on that where you, I don't 287 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,320 know, like got you most excited or obsessed? 288 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,320 Yeah, in the beginning I was very focused on Bitcoin. 289 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,000 I thought this was the, you know, the main thing to 290 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,440 understand first, which is send me down, you know, the rabbit 291 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,160 hole of, well, what is money? You know, what is how does it 292 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,360 work? What is banking like? 293 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,280 I, I could tell that there was some truth to, I think what 294 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,160 Bitcoiners were saying about maybe money in the banking 295 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,800 system, but also there was so much stuff that they were saying 296 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,520 that was like simply wrong, right? 297 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,240 Like I think all of the ideas that Bitcoin people have about 298 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,400 fractional reserve banking and like all of that stuff and Fiat 299 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,160 money in a lot of ways is it's just like completely not true. 300 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,760 But there was the kind of interesting, like they were 301 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,520 right about some parts. I mean, the, the relationship 302 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,000 between like government and, and money, I think was, is like one 303 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,160 good example of the way that money can be weaponized and, you 304 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,960 know, or like used to control people and societies. 305 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,920 And so I thought that there's, you know, an interesting 306 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,160 connection here, But I think I, I mean, I quickly ended up 307 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,400 thinking that Bitcoin competes much more with gold than with 308 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,480 the dollar. Yet at the same time, there's 309 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,240 like a hierarchy of money in, in, in on which like both gold 310 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,240 and the dollar also exists, right. 311 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,440 And so it was kind of for me that was a very like formative, 312 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,400 I think couple of years like just like getting, building up 313 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,880 all of these mental models to make sense. 314 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,840 And you know, Bitcoin for me was very interesting. 315 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,000 Like I, I could see the value for sure. 316 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,360 And once I did, once I had that part kind of locked down, it was 317 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,640 more about like, OK, how does it actually work? 318 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,440 How is it, how does it evolve? Like how does it evolve? 319 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,400 How is it governed? What are like the social systems 320 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,480 kind of on top of maybe the technical system that is 321 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,000 Bitcoin? What if we what if we have, you 322 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,480 know, we have this model of like how Bitcoin works, but what if 323 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,040 we play it out 10 years into the future, 20 years into the 324 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,720 future, How does it change? And like for me, if for example, 325 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,120 the idea of Bitcoin security model and the the block subsidy 326 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:54,800 that that is going to run out. That was like a very clear, like 327 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,320 that wasn't even a long tail risk. 328 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:57,960 There was just a fat tail risk, right? 329 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,080 That for some reason was like illegal to talk about. 330 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,000 Yeah, that's still something that worries you a lot when it 331 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,160 comes to Bitcoin. I, I think it does, I mean, 332 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:15,240 it's, it now worries me a bit less than it has not be. 333 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:21,120 I mean, fees are still very low on Bitcoin, but I think now that 334 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,720 Bitcoin is starting to have a bit of a layer 2 road map. 335 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,520 And you know, we, there is actually, we're starting to see 336 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,560 some reasons why people need to use the layer 1, you know, maybe 337 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,600 for DA may, maybe for settlement between different layer 2. 338 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:39,080 So I think it is at least easier to envision that that 339 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,480 transaction fees at some point like there is enough kind of an 340 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,240 economy on top of Bitcoin that, you know, you don't have to 341 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,840 worry maybe so much about that. Yeah, yeah, it still bothers me 342 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,640 as well. I do think it's a big kind of 343 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,560 thing that people Bitcoin just, I, I think it's also the sort of 344 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,880 software. People talk about the risk for a 345 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,480 while, worry about it, but then they're like, is there anything 346 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,400 actionable you can do? I'm like very hard right to do 347 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,440 anything and then you just sort of forget about it. 348 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,400 And then you ignore it, right, Because it's like, well, the 349 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,920 risk was discussed, you know, it didn't go anywhere. 350 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,240 So then like no point to sort of like people aren't interested in 351 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,400 revisiting that discussion. So I, I feel like now it's 352 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,160 really, I feel the only time when this will become a big 353 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,760 topic is when it's actually when there's actually real security 354 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,600 issues. Yeah, I, I actually thought the 355 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,960 other day I was asking myself if I have become like more jaded 356 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,440 and like more, I don't know, less kind of willing to like 357 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,480 push for big things in crypto. Because when I, you know, when I 358 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,080 was new to crypto, it's very much like, Oh yeah, the security 359 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,520 budget in Bitcoin, that's clearly a problem. 360 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Let me write, you know, like let me tweet about that, like and 361 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,640 write articles about it and go on podcasts and discuss it with 362 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,720 everybody. Like seek out people to discuss 363 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,760 it with. Try to lobby for not even for 364 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,440 changing something in the beginning, but like for getting 365 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,840 people to agree that it's a problem. 366 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,920 So we can have a discussion about how to, how to address 367 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,440 that. And I was, you know, there was 368 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,920 like an uncomfortable time, right? 369 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,840 But also like in time of basically like extreme growth. 370 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,320 And now, I mean, I, there are still of course like things that 371 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,480 I would change in crypto, but I, I was wondering if I kind of 372 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,680 still have that, you know, same maybe energy and like this 373 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,440 confrontational energy is why, right? 374 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,680 To kind of go out and, and, and like just single handedly push 375 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,240 for like something to change. And yeah, it was, it was a kind 376 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,440 of interesting, maybe look in the mirror. 377 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,800 So, you know, maybe it's time to go, maybe go back more towards 378 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,960 that. Yeah, of course. 379 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,560 It's so hard to make changes right when it comes to some of 380 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,480 these things. How did you get involved in 381 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,840 Lidl? Yeah, I mean from Bitcoin, 382 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,120 Bitcoin at this very simple scripting language, you 383 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:21,160 couldn't, I mean, I, I'm not very technical, but it was clear 384 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,920 to see that you can't do very much with it, right? 385 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Like when you're in Bitcoin, you don't have much maybe have an 386 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,720 appreciation for what Ethereum is trying to do in the 387 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,080 beginning. But for me, the time when I 388 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,600 started to really pay attention was maybe about like 20-19 when 389 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,760 some of the first Defy apps started to launch. 390 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,640 And for me, that was a sign that wow, this is really interesting 391 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,760 because you know, this isn't just a, a kind of fork of, of 392 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,480 Bitcoin that's maybe doing like some things differently. 393 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,080 This is really adding a new dimension to what crypto can do, 394 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:00,400 right? The idea that you can build 395 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,600 smart contract platforms, you can have these decentralized 396 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,160 smart contracts. And this is in some ways it's 397 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,440 like it's super set of Bitcoin, right? 398 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,280 Because like you can like any token can exist. 399 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,200 Like a token is just a a smart contract, right? 400 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,880 It's just like a smart contract account where people have like, 401 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,920 you know, balances, like like, you know, signatures and and 402 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,480 balances, right? And so, yeah, that for me that 403 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,280 that was really eye opening. Kind of you see those defy apps. 404 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,480 And at this point, I think I gradually started to spend like 405 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,440 more and more of my time looking at the theorem and looking at 406 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,680 Defy in particular, because all the prior research and like 407 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,920 education that I'd already done on, on like how finance works 408 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,560 and money and those things for me, I think for me, Defy clicked 409 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,040 much earlier than for other people because of that then 410 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,400 because I had done that education in Bitcoin. 411 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,400 And I mean, you still have like just I locked on Twitter 412 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,960 yesterday and, you know, there was like a threat from like a 413 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:03,880 top tier VC who was like talking about how we can bring like algo 414 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,560 stables back and like, whether this or that hasn't been tried. 415 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,240 And it's like this just like extreme misunderstanding of like 416 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,440 how banking works and like how money works. 417 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,280 And, and I'm like, yeah, like, you know, sometimes you don't, 418 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,560 it's hard to appreciate. Like, you know, what do you what 419 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,640 do you know, or like how how that's not, you know, you 420 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,560 shouldn't take that for granted in that sense. 421 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,560 So I didn't. So there's like a lot of people 422 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,040 even in like Ethereum who don't know even like the first thing 423 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,240 about finance and and and so on. And like we are I think we are 424 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,960 still like early in in kind of understanding defy and 425 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,280 appreciating that. And yeah, so like more and more 426 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:47,960 defy happened on Ethereum. And then I think at this time I 427 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:53,760 was, you know, you had George us on the show probably a couple of 428 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,000 times as well. Like we were very close back 429 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,840 then. He was still, George was still 430 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,480 living in Europe at the time. And we were working very closely 431 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,600 together, writing like a lot of research articles and doing kind 432 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,960 of just like explorative stuff in the theorem ecosystem. 433 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:16,160 We were very, you know, when this was before IEIP 1559 434 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,920 happened and we were very focused on topics around MEV 435 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,880 and, you know, transaction fee mechanisms, which also like grew 436 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,000 out of my interest toward transacting fee mechanisms in 437 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,880 Bitcoin and how if we maybe change that, we can change the 438 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,280 way that like, like how much fee revenue can be raised from 439 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,880 people transacting, right? And so it was very natural for 440 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,680 me then to ask those questions in, in Ethereum. 441 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,200 And I gravitated a lot towards this EIP 1559 proposal, which 442 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,080 Vitalik had made I think already like 2 years before. 443 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,280 And it got, but it, it didn't, you know, he never really pushed 444 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:52,640 for it. It didn't really catch on. 445 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,400 And so it kind of laid dormant. And then there was a kind of 446 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,920 push to revive it and bring it back. 447 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:05,040 And we were like, we were doing, I think some data like 448 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:09,080 simulation based analysis about that and writing articles about 449 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,960 it. And, and you know, one of the 450 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,640 topics that we were interested in was basically staking push 451 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,760 because Ethereum at the time was, was about to switch to 452 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,240 proof of stake or like proof of stake had been in the works for 453 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,160 many years. But that was one of the things 454 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,840 we wrote about. We wrote an article about kind 455 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,680 of staking pools and like the difference between centralized 456 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,400 and decentralized staking pools and staking derivatives. 457 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,200 And we basically concluded that in Ethereum there was like a 458 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,360 really good set up to create a decentralized staking pool in 459 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,320 between and like for this staking pool also to have 460 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,520 advantages over over centralized staking that would kind of give 461 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,800 them a leg of an adoption. And between those staking pools, 462 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,400 you had a rear, or at least we thought you had a rear kind of 463 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,360 winner take most dynamic because you could introduce the staking 464 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,200 derivative that could itself become a building block for like 465 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,920 other things and like be used in other, in other Defy apps and so 466 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,040 on. Because, you know, like, even 467 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,240 like tokens themselves, I just like, you know, have liquidity 468 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,160 effects and network effects and like, and so on. 469 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,360 We thought that basically because taking derivatives are 470 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:20,720 going to be when I take most, that means that staking pools 471 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:26,320 would also be when I take most. And yeah, that article was very 472 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,640 influential at the time. And we why I mean, Paradigm was 473 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,320 already an investor in in, in Lido and I connected with the 474 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,240 Lido team over that article and we got to talking for a couple 475 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,640 of months and, you know, maybe like like half a year later, I 476 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,360 became an official advisor to the team. 477 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,800 Yeah. I mean we were also correspond. 478 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,200 I think we started talking about, you know, like liquid 479 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,880 staking idea in 2018, right, like right when you started it. 480 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,960 I mean, it's such an obvious idea, right. 481 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,720 And then we were, I think we did built the first like liquid 482 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,360 staking thing for Cosmos in like a hackathon in 2019, I guess. 483 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,320 Yeah, also a long time ago now. Then we wrote this big kind of 484 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,760 paper on, you know, the risks and how to do it. 485 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,480 And although it's kind a little bit focused on Cosmos, actually, 486 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,520 I remember we were also thinking about Ethereum a bit at the 487 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,520 time. But we were like, ah, withdrawal 488 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,960 thing, like how can you do it? Like, you know, that was one 489 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,520 thing, of course, then the having the kind of multi sig 490 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,800 initially or, you know, if the threshold signature was like and 491 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,640 and then the other thing was like, oh, but the LDO, it's just 492 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,640 like looks a lot like a security in some ways. 493 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:56,200 But I think in the end, in the end, I think the choices, right? 494 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,760 And but then of course, we were very involved like as well, 495 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,160 right, and like launching it from the very beginning. 496 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,480 But I think in the end it's also something where we kind of saw a 497 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,840 lot of people were much more conservative back then in terms 498 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,120 of regulatory risks, right? And I think we've kind of seen 499 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,400 that. Yeah, just the the winning path 500 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,800 of, I think I've also been just, you know, go ahead and do it 501 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,080 right. And you did an ethical way and 502 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,400 try to have decentralisation and be honest and stuff like that. 503 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,400 The the right level of risk in business is almost never no 504 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,520 risk, right? You know, there's almost like a 505 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,440 form of controlled risk that you want to take. 506 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,760 And I think what, what I mean, what matters at the end of the 507 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,840 day is that, you know, you, you do stuff that like, let's just 508 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,880 look in the mirror at the end of the day. 509 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,000 Yeah, there's like so many things you can do that are 510 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,800 risky, but that are also unethical. 511 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,160 And that's like things you can do that, you know, maybe are 512 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040 risky, but not, you know, in a way that you hope is going to 513 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,920 become less risky over time. And also that, you know, you 514 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,600 have no problem justifying to yourself because there's no 515 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,480 other people getting hurt from that. 516 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,040 Right? Like it's like net good for the 517 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,160 word, I think so. Yeah, I think that's definitely 518 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,800 one of those examples, yeah. So of course in the beginning, 519 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,080 right, Lido, yeah. So there was basically kind of 520 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,120 like a multi sig in a way that was later removed right when 521 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,120 they started having withdrawals. So, you know, smart contract 522 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,280 controlled. Yeah, The the the the problem 523 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,200 was that like, you know, the, you had the separation between 524 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,520 the, you know, the beacon chain and the kind of the regulation 525 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,520 the chain, right. And so the beacon chain, you 526 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,800 were not able to own a beacon chain validator with a smart 527 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,520 contract yet because the beacon chain did not, I think, like 528 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,720 support, support smart contracts like the technology didn't exist 529 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:53,080 like you only EO as could own could control these like beacon 530 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,440 chain validators. And so the best you could 531 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,960 actually do here was a kind of like MPC is secured like multi 532 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,880 SEC, right? You can do a smart contract like 533 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,640 that was added only later. Yeah. 534 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,480 And then so in the beginning, right, so it was basically that. 535 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:16,360 And then you had five validators was the initial set and you 536 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,200 know, people could just deposit their EFF, get staked EFF and 537 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,320 you know, it had a huge amount of traction. 538 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,000 I think probably the, I, I mean, my views, there was like 2 big 539 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,200 reasons for it. Maybe maybe it was a third 540 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,720 little bit of a reason, but I think the biggest reason was the 541 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,240 withdrawals, right? So where you basically you had 542 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,480 to stake you if and then you wouldn't be able to unstake it 543 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,600 until actual the merge happened, which you know, you didn't know 544 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,440 how long it was going to take, could be 3 months, six months, a 545 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,840 year, who knows, right? So of course, huge amount of 546 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,360 uncertainty and then no native delegation, right? 547 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:03,480 So Ethereum, I think I mean, my view, Ethereum is a kind of an 548 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,560 example where the staking design, the system staking 549 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,120 design was a bit of a failure in some way from the perspective 550 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,440 that like it was designed around the idea that people will run 551 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,400 their own validators at home and no in protocol delegation. 552 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,360 And I was just completely ignoring what people actually 553 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360 want. And then Lido kind of built the 554 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,040 thing that people actually want, which is just a simple thing 555 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,120 where you can just take any amount. 556 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,480 So then I think Lido really right, We saw also even today, 557 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,680 right liquid taking on Ethereum, there's like way, way, way more 558 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,360 adoption than on any other chain I think for. 559 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:55,960 For these reasons, like, I mean, I've seen so many different 560 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,800 liquid staking protocols launched. 561 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,640 I mean, every chain has like 3 to five different liquid staking 562 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,760 protocols. Like even chains that have yet 563 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,840 to launch, right? Like this, there's like 3 564 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,080 different liquid staking protocols on Monad and that's 565 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,280 like 2 on mega eve and whatever, right? 566 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,440 Like every chain has them. And I'm not bullish on any of 567 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,120 them because you need like a very specific set of 568 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,640 circumstances to be true for liquid staking to repeat the 569 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,640 kind of success story that it has on here. 570 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,680 And you know, one big one was basically the fact that like if 571 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,400 you staked it was taken was like a one way door, right? 572 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,320 Like the merge ended up taking, you know, how long did it end up 573 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,680 taking? Two years, right. 574 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,600 Like I think it was like locked up for two years. 575 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,080 Yeah. Yeah, I think so. 576 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,080 Or maybe like maybe it was 18 months, right. 577 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,120 But like, I think the, the like most optimistic estimates were 578 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,840 like around 12 to 15 months, right? 579 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,640 So, you know, and like the conservative ones was OK, you 580 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,960 know, maybe it's like 2-3 years or even never, right. 581 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,400 So like you were taking, you were taking a risk. 582 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,920 And I mean, the risk wasn't was less of the problem was like the 583 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,880 discomfort from basically locking up your money for a long 584 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,760 time. And so the two solutions to that 585 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,600 were exchange staking. They offered you a derivative, 586 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,080 then you, you at least you could sell the stake position inside 587 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,880 the exchange, right. So maybe they could also issue 588 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,280 like the derivative on chain and you can also trade it etcetera. 589 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,239 But like exchange taking like we were very anti that because we 590 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,080 didn't want like exchanges to play like exchanges are already 591 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,639 the most valuable players in the crypto ecosystem at the time. 592 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,840 And we thought if they also control, you know, the the chain 593 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,320 itself, like, wow, that's really bad, right? 594 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,159 And so, and the other was staking in multiples of 32 EVE 595 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,600 by like, you know, maybe Eve was like one or two K or whatever at 596 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,920 the time. Maybe it was even higher, but 597 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,719 like it was like 50K plus to stake and you couldn't stake in 598 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,680 like lower increments. That was very bad also, right? 599 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,360 And so I mean, those two things were basically those were like 600 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,240 the golden ticket, right? In the sense like why a liquid 601 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,200 sticking fuel would do so well on Ethereum? 602 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,200 But like, like all liquid sticking ratios are super low on 603 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,200 like virtually every other chain other than EVE. 604 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,640 Like even Solana it has like 1% or 2% like liquid sticking 605 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,480 penetration. I think it's a bit higher now, 606 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,480 but. Yeah, it might have increased 607 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120 like since I last checked. Yeah, but it's very small, like 608 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,120 it's not really comparable. I think that was like a good, I 609 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,920 mean like both are necessary because like otherwise 610 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,560 everything would be captured by exchanges and like and like a 611 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,080 good environment for Lido to launch into. 612 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,920 I would say yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 613 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,240 So when you think of Lido and the history of Lido, what are 614 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:54,920 the main, the main evolutions in the protocol and the main, the 615 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,760 main changes that have been enacted since the launch? 616 00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,520 Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean the 617 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,160 launch itself is interesting. I would in in some sense I would 618 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,080 call it like the progmatic age, right. 619 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,600 Like the V1 is like all about pragmatism because as you were 620 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,080 saying, like yes, like there was a small number of not a radars 621 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,600 and the tokens were controlled by Moody sick. 622 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,720 And like it was all basically for technical reasons, right. 623 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:20,640 Like you couldn't do, you couldn't actually control like 624 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:22,600 we can change that as with a smart contract yet. 625 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,120 And like the baseline also at the time it was people that's 626 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,040 taking on exchanges like because people didn't want to lock up 627 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,760 their funds for two plus years, right? 628 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,200 They, you know, they wanted some liquidity at least, like all of 629 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,640 the big capital debt, right? And so I was like, is this 630 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,400 better? Is this better? 631 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,720 A, is this better than like staking on on an exchange? 632 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,720 And B, does it have a path to decentralization, right? 633 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,720 Like those were the two questions that that Lido was 634 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:54,680 asking itself. And like it made all of the the 635 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,000 right choices that that that were like very pragmatic choices 636 00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,360 as well. That kind of you needed to 637 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,440 balance, you know, growth and, and like hell for Ethereum 638 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,720 because you don't, you didn't want the funds to end up on an 639 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:12,200 exchange and, and, and like path to decentralization. 640 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,400 I would say. So then when I think 2 years 641 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,880 later, like the merge happened and this allowed, you know, 642 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,520 lighter then also to that withdrawals to the protocol I 643 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,560 think took took maybe like a couple more months for that than 644 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,240 to happen. And I would say Lido has always 645 00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:38,480 been on kind of 2 tracks. You know, 1 is basically, you 646 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,080 know, serving users and like making the best possible 647 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,280 product. And the other is about 648 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,080 decentralization. And it was always about 649 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,440 balancing these two things. And so the the first track thing 650 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,640 in a lot of ways is what about simplicity? 651 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,200 You know, like let just like click 1 button and like have me, 652 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,960 you know, stake my E for you, like give me give you the most 653 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,600 rewards, right? And the other is I think, you 654 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,200 know, also like integrations liquidity. 655 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,680 So you can actually with a token that you get in return, you can 656 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,240 actually go and and use it, right? 657 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,280 Like you can borrow against it in lending markets. 658 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,440 I think that really was the biggest thing like unlock 659 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,560 unlocking, making making like state state E on the beaten 660 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,240 chain, turning that into like a collateral asset like unlocking 661 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,000 the collateral value of that just made made it so much more 662 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,040 valuable. And this would later. 663 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,040 I think this this like track like of just like making the 664 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,760 best possible product for as many users as possible. 665 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,240 That would then I think motivate like V3 as well as we're going 666 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:42,200 to talk about in a minute. The other track was always about 667 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,000 decentralization. And so having like a really good 668 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,520 note operator sets, having like we always like growing the 669 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,120 number of node operators that stake is distributed across, 670 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,080 making sure it's Geo distributed, it's client 671 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,040 distributed. All of the node operators are 672 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,720 falling following like best practices around how to run 673 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,720 their staking setups and like, you know, make sure that 674 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:08,360 nobody's ever getting slashed. So it was a a big deal. 675 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,360 And then the other two are kind of making withdrawals 676 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,640 permissioners. So the idea that if you if you 677 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,200 actually hold any stake Eve, you can always go to the protocol 678 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,360 and you can redeem it for Eve and nobody can stop you, right. 679 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:27,920 That is that is a that is a big kind of North Star goal and one 680 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,720 step towards that is like going to be triggerable withdrawals. 681 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,960 So that's, you know, I think that was added in the last half 682 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,520 Rock. I think a theorem. 683 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,960 And the other one is dual governance, right? 684 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,880 So the idea, I mean, so first of all, you need you need a way for 685 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,440 like someone to programmatically trigger withdrawals from the 686 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,280 beacon chain in the sense that like the Notre Braider with the 687 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,680 fans are delegated to, you know, it's just getting ejected. 688 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,000 So they have no way to like stall it out or something. 689 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,640 So that was important. And the other was for people to 690 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,480 be able to withdraw without governance having any way to 691 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,000 stop that. And so that is the idea of dual 692 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,240 governance and the dual governance is an upcoming 693 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:17,520 upgrade to Lido where, you know, anywhere basically staked E4 694 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,960 does have a way to escalate and like freeze the the governance 695 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,360 system when they think like a contentious proposal is 696 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,560 happening. And that gives enough time for 697 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,800 everybody to withdraw. And so, you know, it's the, you 698 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,360 know, it's what this really gives you as a state guys, you 699 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,960 can always withdraw like that. Nothing can happen in governance 700 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,120 really like as long as you assume that like a small number 701 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,080 of parties is paying attention to act in time and then the 702 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,640 protocol can be frozen and like everybody can withdraw their 703 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,320 money. And so that that would then 704 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,800 basically make withdrawals entirely permissionless, which 705 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:59,320 which is a huge deal. Yeah, because probably not all 706 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,880 listeners remember this or followed this back then, But for 707 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,480 a while, Lido was very controversial. 708 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,960 So I think there was different reasons for it, right? 709 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,800 One was that Lido ended up getting very big, getting up to 710 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,760 about a third of all the EVE stake was in Lido. 711 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,360 And so of course people are like, oh, if there's more than 712 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,120 1/3 then. And then I think the other big 713 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,280 concern right here was that you had the LDO token, which the 714 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,240 governance token of Lido protocol. 715 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,160 And so you of course had like, oh, well, if now we have all 716 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,000 this eve that's kind of, you know, controlled by the LDO 717 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,200 token. And then, you know, maybe the 718 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,680 LDO token or they could like do something to, I don't know, 719 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,760 control the protocol extract value. 720 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:49,720 So of course that was never really never a risk I would say 721 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:57,680 in the sense that it wasn't the Lido philosophy or values or 722 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,160 goals. And I think Lido is very 723 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,560 conscious, right of these concerns, right. 724 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,960 So I think then the dual governance kind of. 725 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,640 Yeah, I mean it, I wouldn't say that it it wasn't a risk like I 726 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,360 think the risk never materialized like it's not, it's 727 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:13,360 not. So I mean. 728 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,040 It's not 0 risk. Yeah, these two things are 729 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,680 related, right? Like, I mean like the fact that 730 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,440 Lido control, it's 1/3 of ETH. I mean, what does control mean, 731 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,840 right? That's that's the big question. 732 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:28,240 And so the, the reality was that ADO could really exert some 733 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,800 amount of control like over the, over the stake, right? 734 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,920 Like it couldn't really control like the hundreds of node 735 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,800 operators that the stake is distributed to. 736 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,920 But it could with some reason, like it could, for example, 737 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,080 prevent people from withdrawing at the time. 738 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,480 Like if that's if that's a proposal that like you want to 739 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,480 make and that passes like the vote on chain. 740 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,040 And so it's really like the question is, how do you fix 741 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,120 those holes, right? And like a very big part is like 742 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,040 kind of neutering the ability for IDO to make any decisions 743 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,440 that would actually be bad for users and bad for Ethereum. 744 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,960 And so I think then, you know, there's that that that like a 745 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,960 tech factor becomes closed. You know, that said, like even 746 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,440 people like on the lighter side, or I mean, there were many 747 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:17,920 people. This was a thing that the 748 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,400 community was very divided watch right, like because even like 749 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:27,560 many people who weren't working online or were in favor of like 750 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,280 not self limiting the growth. And the reason was that the 751 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,160 other, you know, the alternative, like self capping 752 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,280 was also seen as risky. Like it had its own risks, 753 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,400 right? And that was the idea that if 754 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,680 the market really is like, if the market for staking 755 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,240 derivatives really is we're not take oil or we're not take most. 756 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,200 And if like the good guys basically like save cap and like 757 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,200 the bad guys don't, then you just end up losing, you know, 758 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,960 the entire market, right? And so that was I think a big 759 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,840 kind of rationale at the time. And I think we're like fortunate 760 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,960 that it didn't play out this way, but I don't think it was a 761 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,120 given, right? I think we we ended up seeing 762 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,080 that like the demand side of the market ended up fragmenting more 763 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,040 than than we thought. And then that led to like a 764 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,680 basically like a fragmentation on the supply side as well which 765 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,400 we will we can get into. I know. 766 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,480 Do you want to talk about institutional staking or Lido 767 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,880 V3? Maybe we go to Lido V3 first? 768 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,600 Yeah, we go to V3 first. There's one more thing on like I 769 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,200 have on decentralization, which is the other big North star. 770 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,080 There's like, you know, having a good node aware set, having 771 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,360 permission of withdrawals and the the 3rd and like final one 772 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,680 is having permissionless node operation. 773 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,440 So not just the ability for people like for stakers to join 774 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,080 and leave like permissionlessly, but also for note operators to 775 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,160 do the same thing. And you know that that is 776 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,120 basically like happening also in major ways as to community 777 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,680 staking module that made, you know, sticking permissionless 778 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,880 and it's slow. It's it's like slowly being 779 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,440 scaled up. There's also like DVT 780 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:05,400 distributed technology module. Just the idea that you have, if 781 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,840 you have, you know, let's say like you know, you have like a 782 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,600 multi sig of five and you have like 3 notabators in that set 783 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,120 who are either curated IE like secured by reputation or like 784 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,400 CSM validators, IE secured by a bond. 785 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:21,600 Then you can just add two more, right? 786 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,560 And they, you know, they can't control the validator, right? 787 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,600 Like they can, you know, it's like another way to like make it 788 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,040 so that people can join permissionlessly, maybe with 789 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,400 like an even lower bond or secured by like a smaller amount 790 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,600 of reputation. But yeah, so just the idea that 791 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,200 like you can make the protocol more permissionless over time. 792 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,560 And also the way that like stake is routed across these modules 793 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,760 becomes basically like more and more automated over time. 794 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,160 Yeah. So I was saying before 1 staking 795 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,840 derivative didn't end up winning, you know, didn't end up 796 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,200 growing, you know, to to like the majority of the market. 797 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,960 And that was because it turned out that, you know, there were, 798 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,280 you know, at the time staking was seen as like, well, one 799 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,040 staking set up is like the same as every other staking set up, 800 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,040 you know, So then liquidity became a real differentiator 801 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,320 and, and integrations and, and, and, and that kind of stuff. 802 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,040 But as it turned out, you basically saw two big trends. 803 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,560 And one was the rise of re staking. 804 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,760 So the idea that like people were were staking like they 805 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,000 wanted to like stake the eve on the beating chain, but also then 806 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,400 they kind of stake that very that again and some set up where 807 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,600 they were maybe earning extra rewards and Lado did not 808 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,280 participate in that. It was like seen as not in, you 809 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,880 know, in the values of the protocol to do that to kind of 810 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,200 take, you know, to rehypothecate people's stake. 811 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,960 And you know, it basically gave rise to this new to new 812 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,720 protocols that that did that, that ended up like taking more 813 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,240 risk, but also paying more rewards. 814 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:03,320 And I mean mostly or like not mostly, but like it was entirely 815 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,240 fueled by kind of inorganic growth incentives. 816 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,240 So we were, we're talking about liquidity mining in the 817 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:10,960 beginning, right? It's just like all liquidity 818 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,120 mining in the sense that there's nobody actually using, you know, 819 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,600 actually using that like that stake and is actually paying any 820 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,000 like organic rewards. And there's also no slashing or 821 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,200 anything. So, you know, it's just purely 822 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,120 like building the supply side, paying people points and 823 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,000 ultimately like Aglaya tokens, for example. 824 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,320 And you know, that ended up soaking up a lot of ETH and a 825 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,800 lot that this was like a big use case that that lighter didn't 826 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,840 serve. And the other was like more 827 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,680 institutional forms of staking. So I think as, as like more and 828 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,480 more like institutional players decided to come and do crypto, 829 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,080 What he ended up seeing was they had different often times, you 830 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,680 know, either like risk management, like more internal 831 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,720 based or like more regulatory, IE like external based kind of 832 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:08,400 constraints and desires about what they wanted to do. 833 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,320 So for example, if you if you have a, if you have a constraint 834 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,360 like you need to know the Noto writer you're delegating to and 835 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,320 you actually need to have like a pen on paper, like actual legal 836 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,080 contract with them, then that was a thing that like Lido did 837 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,800 not surf you at the time, right? Aside from of course running, 838 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,680 you know, Lida validators and we started using N as a few or so 839 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:37,800 while ago now, but I think there was one very elegant design was 840 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,440 to stake wise design and to stake wise design basically 841 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,720 allowed you to have different vaults. 842 00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:47,120 So you know, we can have, we could have a public vault that 843 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,160 people Safeway for. We could have a vault just for a 844 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,840 particular customer where like no other assets would be. 845 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160 And then of course, you can have whatever fee agreement you 846 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,880 wanted, you know, you could decide or different maybe DVT 847 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,120 for one or not like you could have one validate or different 848 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,920 sets. It was extremely flexible. 849 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,200 But then the thing that stake was also allowed you to do was 850 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,960 that all of these different vaults and there was no fee from 851 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,040 the protocol on any of these vaults, but it it would allow. 852 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,840 People to then still mint a liquid second token. 853 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,400 Or as if that was shared across all the vaults and then, you 854 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,600 know, for example, Eigen layer added OSC, right? 855 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,440 So then you could say, OK, I can participate in Eigen layer, 856 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,680 right? Or I could do you know, we we 857 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,520 have to small now where you can do leverage staking, right? 858 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,080 Where you can basically take the OSC, put it in all they bore 859 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,520 against it and loop it. So like that I think was a very, 860 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,120 very elegant design and that I am, I think, also inspired. 861 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,320 Yes, absolutely. I saw the same way that liquid 862 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,640 staking had been around like 2-3 years at least before Lido 863 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,320 launched. Like the idea of vaults I think 864 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,000 is like is, is similar. I think a lot of people in, in 865 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,320 the like liquid staking space or staking space in general, you 866 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,800 know, have been having like the same idea or like, you know, 867 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,920 roughly the same idea, but it wasn't the same priority or like 868 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,720 timing. I think for everyone. 869 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,280 I think that stake wise, you know, I think they definitely 870 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,920 have, you know, great products and you know, it's it's a very 871 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:38,480 strong, I would say inspiration for for lighter V3 because so if 872 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,960 you, if the, you know, if we kind of from talking about 873 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,640 restaking and talking about institutional, you know, demand, 874 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,880 like the problem here was like in both cases that the staking 875 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,840 set up that Lydo gave you was not flexible enough, right? 876 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,080 It was opinionated, right? So it was not putting your money 877 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,080 in re staking. You were getting the same 878 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,560 returns as everybody else. You did not were not able to 879 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,880 choose who we are not the red eyes and like what mainly the 880 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,600 release they use and if they use DVT or not, right. 881 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,640 So it was all like one big pool. And so I think the idea of what 882 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,400 then to kind of put that like on top of what lighter already has 883 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:23,080 is a very kind of organic one in in the sense that you when you 884 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,520 have that, you've already explained it perfectly, right. 885 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,480 Like a word is just, you know, it's the idea to like create 886 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,560 your own staking setup with your own valid with your own not 887 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:37,440 abraders and and then have the ability to mint the liquid 888 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,560 sticking token, like in our case, stake Eve against that 889 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:46,160 with a like with a collateral ratio that that is based on, on 890 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,880 that vaults risk profile. And I mean, I would say that 891 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:56,680 there's a big difference still between like vaults and Lido and 892 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:01,680 vaults in stake wise. And it's just like staked EVE is 893 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,080 like just like 1000 times or whatever, like more liquid, 894 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,160 right? Like that is that is like a big 895 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,240 difference, right? And so the ability to to be able 896 00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:15,360 to min the most liquid and most integrated steak and derivative 897 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,880 that that is that does make it like a much better product. 898 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,160 Yeah, absolutely. Of course. 899 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:28,320 I think where Steak EEF is absolutely no doubt by far 900 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:33,680 number one right, is in terms of liquidity for Steak EEF and 901 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,720 integrations in, you know, all kinds of places, but you know, I 902 00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,480 guess especially default protocols and yeah, for sure. 903 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,680 So that that is something where it's a very compelling offering. 904 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,880 So now basically what that means is anyone or like, can you 905 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,880 explain to us how it works? Can, can now anyone go and 906 00:52:54,880 --> 00:53:00,960 create a vault or is there some kind of like commissioning or, 907 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,120 you know, only certain parties or how, how does that thing 908 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,600 work? And, and then also how does it 909 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,080 work with the, the collateral ratio, right? 910 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,520 Because in the end, in the end, right, one of the challenges is 911 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,400 that in Lido, you say like, OK, we kind of managed to risk by, 912 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,840 you know, through all these ways, right, through the 913 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:26,720 distribution, through vetting node operators at at least for 914 00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:29,840 the curated set. And now if people do their own 915 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,600 vault, you don't really have control anymore about what they 916 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,520 do. Yeah. 917 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,200 So anybody can create a vault. Like a vault is just a kind of 918 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,600 immutable primitive. A vault has, you know, someone 919 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,320 who can put like the stake into it. 920 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,000 It has a note operator that the stake is then going out to and 921 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,000 being staked with. And you can also have a curator. 922 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,160 So very similar to like how it works maybe on like more four 923 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,000 and like, you know, the new like generation of landing markets, 924 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,880 you know, a void kind of a kind of a curator that's like setting 925 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,680 like the parameters of the void and like you. 926 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,200 Can have one or or or or multiple. 927 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,160 Node operators I think, I think 1. 928 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,200 So did you ask about node operators or curators? 929 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,800 Node Node operators. OK, yeah, I think you can have 930 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,080 several. I think it's like, you know, up 931 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,720 to you. So what? 932 00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:26,240 What a void doesn't have by default is the ability to mint 933 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,880 state DEF right? So that that is you need you're 934 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,360 basically starting with like 0% collateral ratio like you're, 935 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,280 you know, you are. Your void is like able to mean 936 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,680 like 0% worth like stake if against your the collateral 937 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,000 that's that's in the void. Or maybe it's starting from some 938 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,960 low ratio. I don't know like the exact 939 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,080 details, but you know you can. You basically need like 940 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,400 permission from the ladder dial in order to be able to mint the 941 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,240 stake Eve. I think it's working the same 942 00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:03,320 way in in in stake wise as well. I think all everyone can mint OS 943 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:10,000 even stake wise now, but I think by default it has. 944 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,840 It doesn't allow you to mint the entire amount, but yeah. 945 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,760 That's exactly what I mean. They said like a very, yeah, 946 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,760 they said like a very conservative ratio. 947 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,720 And I think that's that's how it would work as well, probably in 948 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:24,640 in Lido. Yeah. 949 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,880 So by default and say what I think every vault can mean, I 950 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:32,200 think 95% and then some vaults, I think it's actually just of 951 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,160 course one vault. And the Genesis vault, they have 952 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,040 some special like, OK, it has to get to a certain size, it has to 953 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,520 have some survives token collateral, has to go through 954 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,680 governance and then they can do 100%. 955 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:47,880 Yeah. And I'm the the way that I would 956 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,920 like encourage people to think about that is like modulus in 957 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,320 Lido, like right now stake is coming in and then there's a 958 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,320 thing that called a stakey router and it's like giving 959 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,480 basically, you know, the right to like mint stake eve against 960 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,000 that Eve two different modulus, right. 961 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,280 And like that distribution function today is, is permission 962 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,640 because it's necessary for risk management like that. 963 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,040 They are, we have ideas for like automating that in the future, 964 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,400 kind of like moving to kind of a policy based type of governance. 965 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,280 Like governance only sets the policy, but the policy isn't 966 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,480 like implemented automatically. And you know, this is another, 967 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,200 this isn't technically a module, but it's like, it's like a 968 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:28,360 module in the sense that like the, the Dow sets, you know, 969 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,640 risk limits basically for, for vaults, like vaults as a whole. 970 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:38,200 And then can set like, you know what, what types of vaults like 971 00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:41,600 you can get, like what type of collateral ratio, like what is 972 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,080 their, their minting abilities? So that's very important. 973 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,760 So that basically will mean like someone creates a vault. 974 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,200 I don't know. Let's say of course 1 creates a 975 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,120 vault or someone else gets a vault and then you want to allow 976 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,720 this vault to mint OSF against it. 977 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:03,520 You will go through the Light of Governance process to get vaults 978 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,240 whitelisted for this. Or approved. 979 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:11,120 I mean, in in later Dow, we're not fans of like making these 980 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:12,720 like very like low level decisions. 981 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,280 So I think it more likely there's like a governance vote 982 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:20,880 to unlock a certain amount of like overall wall liquidity to 983 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:22,840 min stake. If maybe like, let's say like 984 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,880 initially like 2% and then 5% and then 10% right of all stake 985 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,840 outstanding. And there's like a committee, 986 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,120 like a risk management committee that is basically then charged 987 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,000 with like allocating that that capacity to different wards. 988 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:43,080 So I mean, you know, if you, you know, if that would be your 989 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,480 touch point then as well. Like if you're a correspondent, 990 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,440 you're launching a ward. And what's the timeline on the 991 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,520 Lido V3 roll out and are there different phases to it? 992 00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,320 So yeah, we are in a in a pre launch phase right now. 993 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,440 So I mean, right now there's like a kind of simulated way to 994 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,240 do vaults. It's like not technically the 995 00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,960 vault, but it's like kind of like a trying to simulate that 996 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,000 through like off chain refunds and like giving you some ability 997 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,520 to do custom setups for like the actual V3. 998 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,760 And like we're like also working with like many different parties 999 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,640 right now, basically like and getting them ready to to kind of 1000 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,040 adopt it when it goes live. And like the actual V3 launch is 1001 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,520 going to be in summer 2025. S in in in maybe like 1/4. 1002 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,880 Cool. That's very exciting. 1003 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,360 Yeah. And I guess maybe that ties in a 1004 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,360 little bit with the institutional stake inside, 1005 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,040 right. I mean, I think that ties 1006 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,360 certainly the whole thing about, hey, I want to have a contract 1007 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,560 with my node operator, I want to have an SLA like all of that 1008 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,440 stuff of course becomes possible. 1009 00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:04,720 Then I guess the other big thing is ETFs or kind of sort of 1010 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,800 products that are traded in their traditional financial 1011 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:17,880 world, but that represent underlying safety theorem where 1012 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,080 I think redemption is a big issue, right? 1013 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,840 So they're basically they generally have to serve 1014 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,400 redemptions like you know, T + 1. 1015 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,240 So someone says I want to get my EF out, they have to send it the 1016 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,440 next day. But then that's a problem, 1017 00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:37,160 right, because the E form bonding period is much longer 1018 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,120 than that. So then depending. 1019 00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,400 On the size of the exit queue. Yeah, exactly. 1020 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,280 Yeah, I mean, as you're saying, right, Like so first of all, 1021 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,720 between like ET, like non staking ETFs and staking ETFs 1022 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,240 first, like the first thing to understand about ETFs in general 1023 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,440 is like they will basically all compete on price. 1024 00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,520 Like ETFs is like a, you know, an ETF is like a commodity and 1025 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,080 like commodities compete on price. 1026 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:07,160 Like Brent plays some role, but you know, not that much and so. 1027 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,760 That's why a staking ETFs are going to have a big advantage 1028 01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,200 over non staking ETS just because they can, you know, like 1029 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:18,680 a, a, a non staking ETF like actually needs to charge you 1030 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,280 like a fee, whereas a staking ETF they can actually pay you 1031 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,600 right from the rewards, like your balance is still going to 1032 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,840 grow and they can just like charge a much more like 1033 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:34,320 invisible kind of fee from that. And so I think it's like it is 1034 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,000 actually a very good and like attractive product. 1035 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:44,080 And within the set of staking ETFs, you're basically competing 1036 01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,840 on how much you can stake. Like you, you want you, you're 1037 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,520 going to maximize like your returns by staking as much as 1038 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,640 possible. And that in turn is controlled 1039 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,920 by the size of the door or like how many doors there are, right? 1040 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,040 And so if you're if because you need to be able to, as you were 1041 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,080 saying, exactly right, like you need to be able to serve the 1042 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,080 redemption requests when they come in. 1043 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,560 And when you, when you use like native staking, right, just like 1044 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,120 go through, you know, just put your money directly on the TM 1045 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,360 beacon chain. You basically have like one 1046 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,280 door, right? Like the door is the exit queue 1047 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,360 from the beacon chain back to the execution layer. 1048 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:27,520 And so that door, you know, you don't really know how big it is. 1049 01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,600 Like it, it's, it's like, it's sometimes it's like, you know, 1050 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,960 can move a lot of money through, but then other times it's 1051 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,440 clocked. And very often it will clock at 1052 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,440 the exact time when you like, don't you, you, you need it to 1053 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:40,920 like not clock, right? Because everybody wants out at 1054 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:42,320 the same time for the same reasons. 1055 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:48,000 And So what staking the derivatives give you is a second 1056 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,640 door next to the smaller like official door. 1057 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,960 That's like a back door, right? And so that's the idea of, you 1058 01:01:54,960 --> 01:02:01,120 know, you can't just, you can't just unstake your EF to the 1059 01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,760 beacon chain. You can also sell your stake the 1060 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,680 EF to willing buy us in the secondary market. 1061 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:13,640 And those buyers, especially if the stake EF is trading at a 1062 01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,960 discount, they have all the reason to wait to hold it on the 1063 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:22,240 balance sheet and then maybe redeem it like a week later or 1064 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,480 like 2 weeks later. Like that's like as a near risk 1065 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:31,400 free arbitrage trade for them. And so you can expect that the 1066 01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,760 like size of the kind of second door, the like secondary market 1067 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:41,040 is a is going to be a really good way to kind of exit your 1068 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,320 like expand the total amount of exit liquidity that these ETFs 1069 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,720 have available and just allow them to stake more and thus 1070 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,240 charge like much lower fees. And so that's why using the 1071 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:58,160 exact riot staking setup is that is that is, I think you know, 1072 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,320 that probably is going to be like deciding between winning 1073 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:06,320 and losing for these ETFs. Yeah, absolutely. 1074 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,080 Absolutely Anything else you want to talk about with regards 1075 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,440 to institutional staking? I mean, we are, we are in 1076 01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:19,880 advanced stages of discussion, I would say with all of the major 1077 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,800 ETF issuers. And yeah, I think it's, you 1078 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,520 know, it's going to happen like at some point, I think Lido is 1079 01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:32,360 in a really good position because nobody else can offer 1080 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,400 like the size of the door that that stake Leaf can. 1081 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:41,960 Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we can do a final topic 1082 01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:47,360 a little bit and talk a bit about Ethereum more generally. 1083 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:54,720 I think there has been perception over, well, I would 1084 01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,360 say state of crisis, right, a bit in Ethereum. 1085 01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:02,560 I mean, for one, you've had Ethereum actually perform pretty 1086 01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,880 badly as a asset for a while, right? 1087 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:10,040 So it's out massively underperformed Bitcoin massively 1088 01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:16,800 underperformed Solana for a few years now you've had the sort of 1089 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:23,240 crisis big questions around all the L twos and is this value 1090 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,080 really go to Ethereum and what makes Ethereum valuable? 1091 01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:27,920 And what is Ethereum in the 1st place? 1092 01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,040 Is it the world computer or is it this kind of some sort of 1093 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,920 digital gold like money, a bit like Bitcoin and like? 1094 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,080 And then how should the Ethereum Foundation work? 1095 01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,520 And. And now you had the leadership 1096 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,480 changes at the Ethereum Foundation with your executive 1097 01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:52,440 directors. And so actually speaking with a 1098 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:58,320 lot of VCs in the last months, I felt there was a really 1099 01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:00,880 widespread bearishness on Ethereum. 1100 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:07,640 How do you feel about things? Yeah, I think I tend to like not 1101 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,680 get so overhyped and things are going well and like mostly focus 1102 01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:15,880 always on like the negatives and when when everybody is like 1103 01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,000 dunking on a thing, I try to see more of it's positive. 1104 01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,040 So I think I think I'm more from my character. 1105 01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:26,560 I'm more of a like flatline, you know, in that sense, like 1106 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,160 emotionally. And I mean, I think in this, in 1107 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,080 this particular case, it's like a positive because I, I think 1108 01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:38,600 the theorem has never been like, like that downbeat. 1109 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,640 Like, I think it's like people were, were saying a very often, 1110 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,520 I think like price performance comes first and then people are 1111 01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,080 trying to backfill like a narrative for why has it, has it 1112 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,640 done poorly? I think this is there's probably 1113 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,440 some some effect here like that, well, that's like some something 1114 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,040 is performing poorly and then people are making up a narrative 1115 01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:58,880 for why that's the case. And that narrative is very 1116 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,520 convincing to other people. But then also seller who 1117 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,120 reinforced the narrative. When you just look purely at the 1118 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:11,240 fundamentals, then like yes, like Solano has caught up to 1119 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:18,160 Ethereum in some of the metrics that matter, but it was also 1120 01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,160 leading in like many metrics that matter. 1121 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,600 In your view, what is? I don't know if you have like I 1122 01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:31,480 know one or two or maybe Max 3 metrics that you think are most 1123 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:32,680 important to look at. What? 1124 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,240 What are they? Well, I think it's like number 1125 01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,720 of like number of VC backed protocols launched like on 1126 01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,320 Solana versus like Ethereum plus layer 2. 1127 01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,680 So I think would be my this, this is a very big one. 1128 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:50,800 I think TBL is another big one. That one's hard to fake. 1129 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:56,720 Like those two, those two would be pretty big. 1130 01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,840 And then maybe deck something like decks trading volume maybe 1131 01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,520 because I most care about like finance financial. 1132 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:05,840 Activities. Cases, yeah. 1133 01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:11,280 The thing is like when you, I think people are like looking 1134 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,840 for, I mean, I'm coming from the MUV space of course. 1135 01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:21,360 And so and like, I mean, so I know that like in Ethereum we 1136 01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:27,960 see actually like MEV, like MEV becomes basically protocol 1137 01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,320 revenue as like proposers option of the right to order 1138 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,600 transactions in the block. We, we see that as like a, 1139 01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,600 that's almost like a negative indicator for like how well the 1140 01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,360 chain is doing. Like if that number is very 1141 01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,880 high, it means there's a lot of MEV, it means a lot of users and 1142 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,720 like market makers and stuff are like are basically getting the 1143 01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,320 their money extracted from them. And it's, it's, it's a super bad 1144 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,880 UX and it's, you know, going to make people like not come back, 1145 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,000 etcetera. And so we have worked very hard 1146 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:03,240 for like many years to build an MVV supply chain where people 1147 01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,480 don't get front run, they don't suffer like there were. 1148 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,480 They don't want sandwich, they don't get like they don't pay 1149 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:13,280 like this, their Max slippage tolerances and for apps to 1150 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:17,000 build, if we have the tools and the knowledge etcetera to build, 1151 01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:20,720 you know, MEV resistant applications and stuff. 1152 01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,880 And then you're like in Solana in a lot of ways. 1153 01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,760 It's like totally like the wide W like Ethereum, like four or 1154 01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,120 five years ago, where like every user is getting sandwiched in 1155 01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,840 like almost every trade. Everybody's paying their Max 1156 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,840 slippage. And you combine that with these 1157 01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,920 like coins and like use cases that are extremely speculative, 1158 01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,840 right? Like meme coins where, you know, 1159 01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:46,240 if I have a very short time horizon, I know I'm buying this 1160 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,359 thing to sell it like today or tomorrow. 1161 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,800 I don't care about as much about my execution, right? 1162 01:08:52,279 --> 01:08:56,640 So in this case, I'm fine paying like a 5% transaction fee or 1163 01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,439 like a 10% transaction fee, even in some cases because it's so 1164 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,160 volatile, you know, and my time horizon is so short. 1165 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,399 And so, and I think when you look at that, it's it's just 1166 01:09:06,399 --> 01:09:10,160 like like extremely, you know, first it's bad because it's 1167 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,040 literally like money taken from users, but it's also extremely 1168 01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:16,840 unsustainable because a chain that has this level of MEV 1169 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:21,120 extraction is, you know, never going to be able to scale to 1170 01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,319 like use cases beyond the ultra like short term. 1171 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,040 So I'm not saying like the problem won't get solved because 1172 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,240 I think it will like the, we know the Jito team pretty well. 1173 01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:35,399 Like they are very like they are aware of all of the problems and 1174 01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:37,439 they're like very sensible and smart. 1175 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:44,560 But I mean, also like the revenue numbers that like Solana 1176 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,760 stickers and like Gee do I'm making are like they're not good 1177 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:50,560 and and they're also not sustainable. 1178 01:09:52,279 --> 01:09:54,800 Yeah, for sure. I think that's definitely one 1179 01:09:54,800 --> 01:10:00,040 place where here is far ahead of Solana and where I think they're 1180 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:05,520 still a ton of work to do to make the whole transaction 1181 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:14,680 supply chain and MEV more kind of, I don't know, reasonably 1182 01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,680 managed. Yeah, I agree with that. 1183 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:23,120 And I think the the maturity of the D5 ecosystems also something 1184 01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:25,120 where I think Ethereum is still far ahead. 1185 01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,720 Yeah, I mean, that's not even. I mean, it's just like by, I 1186 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:33,520 don't know, buying something on Solana the other week and like 1187 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,400 the I mean, the exchanges are on like a different level of 1188 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:37,960 quality, but like not in a good way. 1189 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:42,600 I mean, there's like, you know, I'm, I'm very used to like 1190 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,960 Salat, like using Kalstroke, for example, like only here. 1191 01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,000 I'm like disclosure. I'm I'm an investor, but just 1192 01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,720 like I'm also like a user and like the idea that, you know, I 1193 01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,040 can have multiple solvers compete to give me the best 1194 01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,720 execution. My trade siamed protected, I can 1195 01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:02,520 pay my gas fees and like the output like all of that stuff 1196 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:07,120 right, like it just doesn't exist right on Solana and it's 1197 01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,760 like not a good experience. Like I know people that say they 1198 01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,960 love the UX and I think the wallets are, you know, the like 1199 01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:18,640 Phantom wallet is a, is a, is a good UX, but it's just like in 1200 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,880 terms of just the basic, just like getting the basics of Defy 1201 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,320 right beyond new crunch trading, I think they still have like 1202 01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:29,080 some ways to catch up and, and framed a different way, like I 1203 01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:31,720 think the maturity of the Defy ecosystem, like All in all, 1204 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,360 Ethiom is still pretty far ahead. 1205 01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:40,800 Yeah, I agree with that. But to come sort of to this 1206 01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:46,280 point about, you know, the sentiment about Ethereum and the 1207 01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:51,480 performance as an asset, what do you think it will take for this 1208 01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:56,600 to turn around and for Ethereum to again be something that, you 1209 01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,840 know, grows up and creates excitement and you feel there's 1210 01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:03,920 momentum and people like bullish about it and they want to buy 1211 01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,080 more of it. And like, whoa, whoa, what does 1212 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,680 it take? What does? 1213 01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,440 It take, I mean, so I think the same way that like narratives to 1214 01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:14,120 reinforce like snowball and reinforce themselves on the 1215 01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:16,240 downward, they do so on the upward as well. 1216 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,680 So I mean, the way that you would expect us to turn around 1217 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:24,840 is like people are really, you know, they're really just like 1218 01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,440 fed up with Ethereum and you know, that's like bad news can't 1219 01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:31,080 really face them anymore because all they expect is like bad 1220 01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,760 news, right? And so it takes like very little 1221 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:38,840 good news to like make people slightly more positive at some 1222 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:42,440 point and then like, you know, you can have a kind of snowball 1223 01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:44,960 in the other direction. I think that's very often like 1224 01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:47,720 how these things work. So you can try to make up like, 1225 01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,000 OK, we need like fundamental changes, but very often days are 1226 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,120 like a cyclicality to these things that shouldn't be 1227 01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:56,560 ignored. I think fundamentally like the 1228 01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:00,360 leadership changes at the EF, I think that that was good. 1229 01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:07,080 Like hands down, I think that Ethereum has been a like, I 1230 01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,840 mean, if you have this research LED in the sense that like it 1231 01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,480 has very long road maps and like things are in discussion for a 1232 01:13:14,480 --> 01:13:17,040 very long time and it's trying to have a very decentralized 1233 01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,720 development process. It's also research LED in the 1234 01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,240 sense that like the court apps and like the EF researchers are, 1235 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:24,320 they are the ones driving the road map. 1236 01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,360 And for a very long time, like industry involvement in that 1237 01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:31,880 road map was seen as not desired, right? 1238 01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,920 And like, you know, you can have this at a time when you're the 1239 01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:42,040 only chain, but when you're competing with other chain 1240 01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,120 ecosystems for the same developers, at some point you 1241 01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:49,400 need to start paying more attention to the ecosystem. 1242 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:53,000 And like, I mean the D Phi people can tell you like 1243 01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:56,120 everybody building in D Phi can tell you like at least one very 1244 01:13:56,120 --> 01:14:00,160 bad experience about like working with AEF in the sense 1245 01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,800 that like they have been there. Either they are like very 1246 01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,280 dismissive of like the thing you're building in the sense 1247 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:10,440 that like I love italic, but also like his word carries a lot 1248 01:14:10,440 --> 01:14:12,800 of weight. And so when he's like maybe 1249 01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:17,000 writing that he doesn't like defy or he thinks that like, you 1250 01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,720 know, crypto shouldn't be used for that and he hopes that there 1251 01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:21,280 would be other use cases, etcetera. 1252 01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:24,600 Like it, you know, it feels very dismissive for like the people 1253 01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,440 working on that, for example, right or another is like when 1254 01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:31,520 they have ideas for all the protocols should be improved 1255 01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:33,480 because they, you know, it's their users, right? 1256 01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:35,840 They know, you know what they get like a million support 1257 01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,640 tickets for every year and like they know what they suffer with. 1258 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:45,160 I mean, then and that you try to turn that like into an EIP and 1259 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,640 you're already meeting a little resistance in the sense that 1260 01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:50,240 like, are you trying to like Co-op the protocol? 1261 01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:51,800 You're trying to take over the protocol. 1262 01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:55,600 Like, I mean that those are like very bad experiences. 1263 01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,080 And I think those are things where I think you have now the 1264 01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:03,000 full like recognition that like, hey, that hasn't been maybe so 1265 01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,200 good. And like, what can we do to 1266 01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,280 change that? Like there's a new energy, I 1267 01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,560 would say, and like people getting like the right people 1268 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,920 getting promoted into the right positions, like including the 1269 01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:20,480 two new EDS and like especially Tomas from Nethermind, he has 1270 01:15:20,480 --> 01:15:24,080 built and like a very like large and successful organization in 1271 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:27,000 in nether mine. And they are very commercially 1272 01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,520 minded, right? Like it's amazing how they have 1273 01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:35,160 built a successful, very big, successful company on the back 1274 01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:39,520 of creating an Ethereum client, right, Which really you 1275 01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:42,280 shouldn't be able to like commercialize that, right? 1276 01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,200 But they have managed to like they're not making money through 1277 01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,080 the client, but like they have built everything around that. 1278 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,960 And to me that's like an extremely good sign. 1279 01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,280 Like he has extremely deep roots in industry and knows all of the 1280 01:15:56,280 --> 01:16:00,000 builders. And so I think you, you're 1281 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,880 seeing a new kind of energy around making Ethereum more 1282 01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:06,920 commercially open and commercially minded. 1283 01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,600 And I think that is if there was one thing that I would change, 1284 01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:12,200 then it would have been that for sure. 1285 01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:16,240 And so and we're seeing that. So that's very positive for me. 1286 01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:18,240 I agree. I agree. 1287 01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:21,360 No, I think I think that's, that's probably one of the big 1288 01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:26,440 thing is also just a sense of like, you know, core development 1289 01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:31,320 moves a bit faster, more programmatic, you know, tries to 1290 01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,800 I think I think some degree of faster scaling. 1291 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,480 I think it's an important one too. 1292 01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,440 That is the other thing, yeah. I mean, if you listen to to 1293 01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:43,680 apps, then yeah, you would have scaled the layer one, right? 1294 01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,560 Like so there's a kind of related, but maybe it's still 1295 01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,960 worth talking about separately. But I think in terms of road 1296 01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,600 map, like I think there must be an that there is now an 1297 01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:57,560 understanding that like you shouldn't give up on the layer 1298 01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,200 one. Like I mean, a lot of what makes 1299 01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:04,280 greatest incentive for roll ups to build on Ethereum is the 1300 01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,000 quality of the layer one. It's it's speed, it's finality, 1301 01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:10,200 you know, it's DA costs and transaction costs. 1302 01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:14,280 So we need OP codes for Zika verification like stuff like 1303 01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:19,280 that, right. And so like there's a bit more 1304 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:21,680 of the understanding where yes, we want to have a roll up 1305 01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:25,280 central broad map. That means roll ups are a big 1306 01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,600 group of customers. So let's think about what they 1307 01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:31,080 need holistically and a lot of what they need, we can only give 1308 01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,120 them by making the layer one better. 1309 01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:39,280 And so I think you're seeing a real revitalization also of that 1310 01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,960 conversation. And, and so I think anybody 1311 01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:49,200 who's like buying Ethereum is also underwriting the, they are 1312 01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:53,840 underwriting the thesis that like these two, like the people 1313 01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:59,560 who, who, who want to push for those two things can basically, 1314 01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,240 you know, breakthrough, like the resistance and like, you know, a 1315 01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:06,080 lot of the entrenched like interests, like inside these 1316 01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:09,760 processes and like this bureaucracy that has build up, 1317 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:10,960 right. Because I hear I'm in a very 1318 01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:16,640 like procedural kind of community where and, and like 1319 01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,480 decision making in a lot of places has historically grown to 1320 01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:21,600 be very decentralized, for better or worse. 1321 01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:26,800 And you know, in, in some areas you have like, there's the 1322 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,200 understanding that like, well, this, like this group of people 1323 01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,320 maybe, or like, you know what I mean, the core core developers 1324 01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:33,480 are like the main example, right? 1325 01:18:33,480 --> 01:18:35,720 Like you have the client teams and like client teams decide 1326 01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,800 what goes into into the fork. And that's, you know, maybe that 1327 01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:41,960 is like one of the very big assumption that like needs to be 1328 01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:45,920 challenged in the sense that like often, you know, you know, 1329 01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,760 quite a lot of us do the implementing, but maybe they 1330 01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:50,240 shouldn't, you know, they shouldn't be the decision makers 1331 01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:54,200 for what actually goes into it. Because like Ethereum is not the 1332 01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,240 type of protocol where you can have, you can be like an 1333 01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:00,200 extremely talented engineer, but you can also still have that 1334 01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:05,000 kind of like strategic vision and like keep the old protocol 1335 01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,920 in your head and like know what it needs like at what time. 1336 01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,480 Like that at least like the set of stakeholders who get to make 1337 01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:14,400 decision needs to be like expanded. 1338 01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:18,600 Cool. I think that's a great note to 1339 01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:21,440 end on. And I'm also excited to see sort 1340 01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:24,560 of what this new energy will bring to Ethereum. 1341 01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:26,200 So thanks so much for coming on House. 1342 01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:27,680 We really enjoyed this conversation. 1343 01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:29,960 Thanks, Brian. It was really fun. 1344 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:30,720 Thank you.