1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,320 Like a scalability is an important until it suddenly is, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,600 the centralization isn't important until it suddenly is, 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,120 and privacy isn't important until it suddenly is. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,280 The solo sticker is a very particular animal. 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,640 It is somebody that understands the value of the centralization. 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,280 If you are a big pool that has thousands of validators and 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,760 you're constantly producing blocks, you are bound to get 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,320 some lot, some of these big payout big MEV blocks, which are 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,600 also known as lottery blocks. The inverse scenario is like a 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,200 solo sticker that has one validator and proposes around 11 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:46,240 two to three blocks per year. The chance of this validator 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,320 getting a lottery block is tiny, very small. 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,560 So if we agree that home stickers are more valuable in 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,000 terms of the centralization and resilience for the network, why 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:14,240 are we paying them less? If you're looking to stake your 16 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,320 crypto with confidence, look no further than Course one. 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,360 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bit 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Gold, Pantera Capital and Ledger. 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Trust. Course one with the assets. 20 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:27,320 They support over 50 block chains and are leaders in 21 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,520 governance or networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,760 responsibly managed. Thanks to the advanced MEB 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,320 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,800 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,560 label node, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,840 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 27 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:49,480 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 28 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,360 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,840 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,560 Gnosis leads innovation with Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,840 reshaping open banking and money. 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,280 With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, they're building a more 33 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,759 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 34 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,600 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Gnosis 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,240 Chain offers the same development environment as 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,760 Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 37 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,040 It's supported by over 200,000 ballot errors, making Gnosis 38 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,960 Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,280 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,640 governance, where every voice matters. 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,280 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 42 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,960 Deploy on the EVM compatible Gnosis Chain or secure the 43 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,280 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,400 Start your decentralization journey today at gnosis dot IO. 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,280 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 46 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,120 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,120 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Frederica Ads and today I'm 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,120 speaking with Edu Antonian Polanski, founder and project 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,080 lead of adapt note. And that note is a solo staking 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,760 hardware and software provider. Eduan, for it's a pleasure to 51 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,520 have you on. The pleasure is entirely mine. 52 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,800 To Lily. So we've we've known each other 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,560 for a very long time, but it's the first time we're actually 54 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,160 talking about Dapno on this show. 55 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,760 You've actually been on kind of on one of the on one of the 56 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,760 Dapcon episodes, I think. But I don't think we've actually 57 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,400 ever really covered DAP note, have we? 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Well, we talked some time ago when the merge happened, maybe 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,240 in the center and it was great. But yeah, I think it's important 60 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,560 to cover also DAP here, I guess. Absolutely. 61 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,720 Before we dive right in, tell me a bit about yourselves and your 62 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,600 backgrounds. Maybe we'll start with you ADO. 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,200 OK, great. Well, I've been around since 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,040 2017. It's has been a long trip to be 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,640 here today. A lot of things in the middle. 66 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,440 I started working with Geordie making some audits like Make it 67 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,320 Tall. And during this audit, the idea 68 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,079 of Dubnot comes to my mind and Europe is 1 and we started to 69 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:19,399 make this happen. And yeah, the product has 70 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:25,640 evolved a lot and we have tried to adapt to the market during 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,720 these years. So yeah, really interesting 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,200 travel to to be here today and a lot of things to share with you. 73 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,080 You cut out for just a little bit, but kind of you said that 74 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,720 kind of Jordy was was this was also Jordy's idea. 75 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. The founders of that are Jordy, 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,800 Valina Griffin and myself and the Mellie. 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:58,240 The idea that comes to my mind and George is 1 and leave it's 78 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,200 it's about decentralization. We realized that at that moment 79 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,120 we were creating the centralized technology with, but without 80 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,320 having decentralized hardware, and we started to make this 81 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,320 happen. Absolutely, and I mean both of 82 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,360 them are now involved with other projects primarily, but kind of 83 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,240 they've also been on the show before. 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,960 So Judy actually several times for for Ms. and Polygon and kind 85 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,360 of the ZK stack that he's building ZKEVM and so on. 86 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,440 And Griff has been on some of the community shows. 87 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,880 What about you could? Well, well, first of all, it's a 88 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,080 pleasure to be here. Thank you for thank you for 89 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,760 inviting us. And I think I, I started in 90 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:49,360 crypto mining Dogecoin in 2014. The reason why I decided to mine 91 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,680 Dogecoin is because I was late to Bitcoin, but I realized that 92 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,840 it, it was the same code. So if I learned how to mine 93 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:59,640 Dogecoin, I would just need to scale up my hardware and it 94 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,880 would, it would basically be very, a very similar experience. 95 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,080 Then like I sort of went on to the corporate route. 96 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:14,360 I did my MB A I, I worked in corporate for a while and in 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:22,520 2016 I met Griff Green, who with whom I collaborated in Gibbeth. 98 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,920 And then in 2019, when I was ready to quit corporate, he 99 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:33,000 introduced me to Edu and the first I think in the 1st 5 100 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,880 minutes of having a chat with Erdu, I knew that the next day I 101 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,960 was going to resign from my job. I think it was everything that 102 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,440 didn't exist in, in the corporate environment where I 103 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,160 was. So I, I since then, since under 104 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,120 19, I've been working with, with Dapnot. 105 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,920 And when all the founders took a step back and and went to other 106 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:02,640 projects, I decided to take over and and try to try to bring it 107 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,720 to where we are now. What were the things that you've 108 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,280 had Edwin Dabnote offered that were lacking in your in your 109 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,880 legacy job? Yeah. 110 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:26,000 So I think at that point it was like you could go straight to 111 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,160 the point, you could go straight to what we're discussing without 112 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,320 endless layers of politics of thinking. 113 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,600 Which department would that fall into? 114 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,040 Whose responsibility is the A was this? 115 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,800 It was just about doing something that was for a greater 116 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:47,280 cause. And Edu was just so patient with 117 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,680 me, like I, I pretended I was, I was in a job interview mode and 118 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,480 I pretended I knew a lot. And Edu was super down to earth 119 00:07:54,480 --> 00:08:00,480 and super didactic and tried to educate me a lot in a super 120 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,600 humble way as he is. So I was, I was humbled and I 121 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,400 was like, yeah, this, this straight to the point. 122 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,960 Smarts is with whom I want to to be working with. 123 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,040 I feel, yeah, I feel, yeah, I think that's generally a virtue 124 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,080 in the ecosystem. So it's also what I really 125 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,640 enjoy. Edu, tell us about the founding 126 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,560 story behind that note. So kind of like it was you, 127 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,960 Jordy and Griff and kind of there was the maker audit. 128 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:34,520 So what, what kind of, what kind of drove you to say, look, we 129 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,640 should make, we should make hardware for people who want a 130 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,880 soda stake? Yeah, well, it's, it's a really 131 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,400 good question. And yeah, it has been an 132 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,640 evolution to to be honest. So the the first idea was just 133 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,120 to create software, not hardware. 134 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,560 And our decision was to create a kind of project, not to make a 135 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,880 business with, but to make it so, so sustainable. 136 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Yes, we did yet to provide a public good to people, people 137 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,240 allow people to have decentralized technology. 138 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,960 It was not just sticking at that moment, because at the moment 139 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,680 sticking was kind of an ideal, but it was about to have privacy 140 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,280 to be able to connect to the centralised network in a really 141 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,720 decentralised manner. So yeah, we, we started the 142 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,040 projects just myself and, and later on we started to ask for 143 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,440 some grants to maintain the project. 144 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:37,200 We, we got grants from Nazis, we got grants from foundation 145 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,120 Aragon mainly. These three actors were the 146 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:47,640 first one to support us and it has been a small project from 147 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,360 the beginning, only four people at most during the first three 148 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,720 years, mainly because, yeah, the idea was she has to try to 149 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,880 evolve and maintain the project and survive. 150 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,360 I mean, we have survived I think 3 better markets. 151 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,560 I don't know the numbers now, but for that you need to be very 152 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:07,600 careful and, and and just continue building. 153 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,280 So yeah, we, we started this initial idea of having this open 154 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,640 source software for for anyone. But then we realised that we 155 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,080 need something more because people at the end of the day 156 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,120 wants to have a kind of out-of-the-box solution makes 157 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,480 their life simple. Because at the end I'm not the 158 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,480 idea behind that it's not make easy for anyone to run different 159 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,360 networks. That was the initial idea. 160 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,600 So that is why it was important us to combine the software with 161 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,320 the hardware solution. Really running a hardware 162 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,000 company is not easy at all. Is is a pay for us. 163 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,280 But but I mean, I think it's needed and I think it's 164 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,720 providing value to the users. That is the the full goal of the 165 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,080 of the project, to provide value to final users, to make them 166 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,040 access to this kind of technology that without this 167 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:04,320 facility will be possible. So, yeah, maybe some years 168 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,200 working on this, then something that changed everything. 169 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,160 It was the, the well, the proof of stake and, and the merch 170 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,200 obviously because it's when people start to using DAB not 171 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,360 for something more than than privacy. 172 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,880 And at the moment we start to solve, to solve more, more 173 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,440 hardware for people that want to run solar staking at home. 174 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,680 And yeah, really, really proud of the of the success that we 175 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:34,040 achieved with this. So who are your users because 176 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:39,880 kind of like the the privacy, I mean, I totally understand the 177 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,520 privacy point that you were making. 178 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,760 So kind of like whenever you kind of connect to say, and at 179 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,600 that time it was mostly Metamask. 180 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,480 So kind of like that would go to inferior. 181 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,400 So kind of inferior would kind of like have all your data. 182 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,720 And even if in principle kind of like you had been super careful 183 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,400 about kind of like where the funds on your address for gas 184 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,360 and so on came from inferior might be able to kind of infer 185 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,440 who you are and kind of and so on. 186 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:09,960 So I totally understand the, the value proposition then principle 187 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,480 in practice, kind of very few people are actually willing to 188 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:21,760 kind of pay for privacy a in funds and B in time and upkeep 189 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,080 and so on. So kind of who who were your 190 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,760 users then and has this changed? Yeah, sure. 191 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,320 I think at the at the beginning it was have a lot of 192 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,600 enthusiasts, a lot of people who really, really believed in 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,280 Ethereum, really believed in the centralized technologies, IPFS 194 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,360 and they wanted to contribute to the network. 195 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:53,080 It was more a contribution to the network than to than to like 196 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,840 take really use it. Of course, there's always been 197 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,360 like a fair share of developers who prefer to have their own 198 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,480 node because then you have like a limit, unlimited querying and 199 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,320 you don't, you don't need to pay an API or being rate limited, 200 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,680 etcetera. But at the beginning, it was 201 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,720 mostly people who who really believed in Etherium and the, 202 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:20,920 the shift really came with the first Test Nets for what was 203 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,240 then known as Etherium 2, the Medallia test Nets. 204 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,720 The all this test Nets that that came out, people started 205 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,200 realizing that proof of stake was going to become a reality. 206 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:39,600 And especially those who were not particularly technical, they 207 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,120 figured out that with that note, it could be an amazing solution 208 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,720 to just one click deploy and and be running those test Nets. 209 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:51,000 So I think like in the matter of like the three months from the 210 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:57,440 first Test net going out, like we like 6 or 6 or 10X our, the 211 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,000 people in our riot channel. We were using Matrix and, and 212 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,040 riots back then. So it was wild. 213 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,280 It was when we decided that, yeah, we that that was probably 214 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:12,760 a good pivot to focus on, on staking above anything else. 215 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,120 Yeah. And I mean, what, what maybe 216 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,000 just as background. So kind of before proof of 217 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,680 stake, obviously we had proof of work and now you kind of you 218 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,960 needed very specialized hardware, right. 219 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,520 So kind of it wasn't something that kind of you would run on 220 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,400 your on your regular machine at home. 221 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,840 So kind of like people build, people build and board 222 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,520 specialized hardware. So kind of offering that 223 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,760 out-of-the-box kind of for people to kind of just install 224 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,720 on kind of like the machines they never turn off in their 225 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,600 homes. That wasn't kind of an option. 226 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,320 Kind of it was literally just running a full node, kind of 227 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,400 getting the complete state and then kind of after the the 228 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,840 transition to proof of stake or kind of like even the lead up of 229 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,440 that transition kind of people were were actually validators on 230 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,680 the network property. So I hear that kind of you had a 231 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,640 lot of idealists. Staking is also can also be a 232 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,880 profitable business has has kind of this crowd shifted somewhat 233 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,440 from kind of like the people who just wanted to be part of the 234 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,920 network. Yeah, absolutely. 235 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,560 There's. So I think the solo sticker is a 236 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:32,400 very particular animal. It is somebody that understands 237 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,320 the value of the centralization. And of course, in general, it 238 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,560 searches for the yield that Etherium provides, but it's 239 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,120 looking for something more. It's looking for a higher level 240 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,840 of contribution and a higher level of exposure. 241 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,680 The to, to get access to the yield of Etherium. 242 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,040 It's very easy to just buy into any liquid staking protocol and 243 00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:59,680 and then you'll have access to that yield. 244 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,840 So definitely like if you need to invest in hardware or you 245 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,600 need to invest in something else is because you want a higher 246 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,520 degree of control. And here, like there's, there's 247 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,160 multiple, multiple personalities or multiple overlaps. 248 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,040 There's the, the developer that wants to run their own node and 249 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,960 again, queried and at the same time manages to use it for 250 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,960 validation. There's the OG the that, that 251 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,400 has massive amounts of ETH from the early days. 252 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,040 And maybe they were even stockpiling 1500 ETH. 253 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,040 That's it was supposed to be the first staking specs. 254 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,280 And and then all of a sudden they found out that they could 255 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,040 run a lot of validators with that. 256 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,400 So, so yeah, mostly it's somebody that that definitely 257 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,240 wants access to that yield and wants the economic interest, but 258 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:51,080 that also believes that their work on validating at home is 259 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,960 valuable for the ecosystem as well. 260 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,520 Is that also how you determine which networks to support 261 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,480 because kind of like you support networks beyond Ethereum, So I 262 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,480 know for a fact you support NOSES because I validate for 263 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,880 NOSES. I also know you support IPFS and 264 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,760 Hopper and a couple of others. So kind of like how do you how 265 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,839 do you determine which networks to support? 266 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,440 That, that's a really good question to be honest. 267 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,880 Obviously we we are trying. I mean as I mentioned at the 268 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,599 beginning, we are on a small team. 269 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,640 So there were health maintaining several networks around packages 270 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,280 is hard for us. So we need to be very careful 271 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,840 choosing them, especially we take a look to the value that 272 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,120 provide to the users and also if they are aligned with our values 273 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,560 that I think is more the most important thing at the end of 274 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,480 the day, this kind of a general purpose machine, right. 275 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,480 So we will like to have as much as possible. 276 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,480 But then obviously these are the metrics kind of right that they 277 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,200 are providing value to the final user that is decentralised that 278 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,320 it's offering. Yeah, several things. 279 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,200 And, and going back to the previous question or linking it 280 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:14,600 to it, is, is, is, but we'll see how people are not getting too 281 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,160 much about privacy, but also privacy is related to censorship 282 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,240 resistance. That was also one of the initial 283 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,760 values. And it's sad, but people only 284 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,680 realise about the importance of this when they are in trouble, 285 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,520 when government start to censorship you. 286 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,600 And that is when you realise, realize this, that you need this 287 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,640 technology. Otherwise it's like people 288 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,160 forget about it. And from day to time this happen 289 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,640 around the world and it's a big boost for us probably. 290 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,480 But it's important to keep in mind that we are building the 291 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,600 centralised networks. Nosis, I don't know the the 292 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,320 number right now. Paul maybe knows how many 293 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,480 validator solar stickers are in in Nosis, but I think it's 30% 294 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,240 or something like that. Yeah, just an excess of 30%. 295 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,680 Yeah, it's, it's amazing to see how this is this network 296 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,120 decentralised, right And how we are in our side helping to make 297 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,840 that happen. And, and, and at the other today 298 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,920 we are creating different network for this reason, not 299 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,800 because it's more efficient. I mean if you go to centralized 300 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,680 sequencers, you are going to get much better performance, right. 301 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,920 But then why we are building different tries technology just 302 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,360 to have these these properties? I think if I may add to this, 303 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,600 one very smart design choice that that Edo and Jordy did at 304 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,640 the very beginning was to really think about Dabnode as an 305 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,080 ecosystem and to, to create the SDK. 306 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:48,480 So actually anybody can create any sort of apps or any sort of 307 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,280 Dabnode packages or Dabnode this or dabs as we call the 308 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:56,760 centralized apps, right. So it's not so much who do we 309 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,200 try to support, but also who is able to, to be part of the 310 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,720 ecosystem. And the answer is anybody. 311 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,640 All of the networks can. Like if you can dockerize your 312 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,920 node, it can be deployed on DAP Node through a, through a DAP 313 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,360 Node app, through the SDK and for. 314 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,240 And then then of course, like the ones that we have supported 315 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:19,720 since the beginning are the ones that, as Ava said, are 316 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,000 completely aligned with, with our values, right? 317 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,960 Those are the ones that that we've been pushing through and 318 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,000 maintaining ourselves. When the teams the the client 319 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,640 implementer teams were too busy or something, then we've been 320 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,080 putting our own efforts into making it available on DAP Node. 321 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,040 I want to come back to kind of like the seeking philosophy and 322 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,560 outlook later, but before that, can we maybe kind of quickly 323 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,640 cover the tech aspects of that node? 324 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,680 So kind of like if you look at the tech stack that powers that 325 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,840 node, what are the major components and how do they work 326 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,280 together? Oh, OK. 327 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:59,920 I can do this one probably. So, yeah, for the very beginning 328 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,680 we ambition display like a totally centralized platform. 329 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,760 So that is why the first thing that we did it was to create to 330 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,000 deploy the Arab smart contract the APM. 331 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,160 The APM has to be able to distribute versions of the 332 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,640 packets in a decentralised manner. 333 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:25,560 So we link, link this smart contract to IPFS plus ENS and 334 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,920 these allow us to make a kind of a package manager distribution 335 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,040 in a decentralised period, decentralised manner. 336 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,280 So that mean that if someone publish a package, no one can 337 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,000 block you, no one can remove that package from the network 338 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,320 because it's completely different from us. 339 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,800 And that was one of the core values of of that employee. 340 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,560 And then yes, the other part of this is what we want to 341 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,440 distribute. And then it's, it's Docker. 342 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,000 So we create a platform of dockers that are distributed in, 343 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,840 in this in the system. And that makes quite easy to to 344 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,280 develop an application for that, as Paul mentioned, because the 345 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,440 process is just to take the download SDK just to create a 346 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,440 docket image, upload it to IPFS and the link to the small 347 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,520 contract. And with that, anyone in the 348 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,840 world can they start it. And, and I think that that's 349 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,800 great. But also, I mean, we have been 350 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,720 talking a lot of about blockchain, but that is not just 351 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,480 that. At the end of the day, something 352 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,320 that we are trying to do is to bring home back the computers 353 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,200 because it's like people are just not having this kind of 354 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,320 computer at home. They are using laptops and other 355 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,680 things and we are trained to force them back to have this. 356 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,200 And at the moment that you have a computer at your home, you can 357 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:49,280 do more things like time machine, you can have your own 358 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,200 cloud for photos, You can have not just blockchain and and 359 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,240 mainly that is the the the idea and having a decentralized 360 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,400 distributor system for this. I think there's a, there's a 361 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,040 naval tweet that I that I really like. 362 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,840 I think it goes something like this like like a scalability 363 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,240 isn't important until it suddenly is. 364 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,520 The centralization isn't important until it suddenly is, 365 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,040 and privacy isn't important until it suddenly is. 366 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:24,480 So I think that note is ready to to make this happen at any 367 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,680 single point and for any platform to be to be ready for, 368 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,280 for either needs for scalability, the centralization, 369 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,400 privacy. So walk me through this. 370 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,400 So I'm a vanilla user, so kind of I, I say I want to use, I 371 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,280 want to say sake on noses and Ethereum. 372 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,120 I have a DAP node. I kind of plug it in. 373 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,320 I kind of connected to the Internet. 374 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,680 What do I need to do then? Once you connect your DAP nodes, 375 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,520 we we've tried to design the whole flow to be extremely easy 376 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,000 and to not have to use command line at any point. 377 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,160 So basically when you plug the machine to your router and you 378 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,800 turn it on, it will start emitting a Wi-Fi hotspot and you 379 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,360 will connect with this with your device. 380 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,360 We need your phone or your laptop or whatever you connect 381 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,480 to that hotspot and then you have to visit my dot dot note, 382 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,760 which is being served by the dab note itself. 383 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,560 So basically you use your dab note from your browser and from 384 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,400 this browser you can go through the configuration flow and then 385 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,920 you can change the password of that initial Wi-Fi. 386 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,760 You can configure access through VPN. 387 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,120 And this is important to have access to your dab note from 388 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,640 wherever you are in the world, not when you're next to it. 389 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,920 And, and in range of this initial Wi-Fi thing. 390 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,000 And then after this initial configuration and configuring 391 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,920 the way you want to access it, then you can start installing 392 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,920 packages, right and installing apps. 393 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,000 And for this, there are two modes. 394 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,480 There's the DAP store. And in the DAP store, you can 395 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,720 find all of the packages that people can create through the 396 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,640 SDK and that we have published as well. 397 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,200 And then there's the Stakers UI. And the Stakers UI is a very 398 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,880 specific flow for Ethereum based block chains. 399 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,040 Right now we have three of them. We have Etherium, Nosis chain 400 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:31,240 and Luxo and basically the in in the flow it, it gets you through 401 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,720 configuring your execution client, your consensus client, 402 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,920 then you are forced to install a Web 3 signer. 403 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,520 That's where the key stores and of your validators will live and 404 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,080 then you can choose whether you want MEVMEV boost or not. 405 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,360 So this is monkey proof basically like it's it's you 406 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:56,520 cannot go to the next step unless you have chosen one of 407 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,520 each and and then you click apply and that note then 408 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,640 installs all the clients and configures all the connection 409 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,080 among them, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 410 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,000 So yeah, that that's sort of like the flow that you would do 411 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,120 to start validating. Then you would need to create 412 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:14,840 these keys, this validation keys somewhere else and then upload 413 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,240 them onto onto your adapt note and you'll basically start 414 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,320 validating approve of stake chain. 415 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,360 This is always kind of like when you hear this from techie, it's 416 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:27,920 kind of like monkey proof. It's usually not monkey proof 417 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,240 and I don't think it's monkey proof, but I can, I can attest 418 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,520 to the fact. So I mean, I, I, I'm attacking 419 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,520 myself, but I know plenty of people who are not devs who 420 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,200 actually run dev nodes. So kind of like within noses, we 421 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,880 actually encourage everyone to kind of run nodes and a lot of 422 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,680 the large parts of the non dev team actually successfully run 423 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,480 nodes at home. So this is very much, this is 424 00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:00,280 very much attainable for interested non devs for sure. 425 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,840 So, so tell us about the DAP store. 426 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,320 So kind of is it, is it fully permissionless? 427 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,720 So could I could I? Could I kind of upload some sort 428 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,960 of malicious docker there? Yeah, this is a really good 429 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,400 question. We have two repositories in DAB, 430 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,800 not one is the DAB not repository that is the one that 431 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,480 we control is the one that we take care of and we are 100% 432 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,640 sure that everything is fine and nothing can be breaking because 433 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080 of the repositories that we are publishing then. 434 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,920 And then we have a completely permission repository that is 435 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,280 the public DAB not that is so yeah, there is anyone can 436 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,560 publish on the public. And then obviously this is the 437 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,600 jungle. You need to be really careful 438 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,000 what you are just telling. But I mean, there are really 439 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,160 interesting things also in the public like I don't know, 440 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,640 optimism package or or community Montana packages that are 441 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,840 trusted. So, yeah, at the end, we try to 442 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,640 combine these these little scenes, one more trustful and 443 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,680 one more trustless and with the other of, of creating an 444 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,360 ecosystem. Because at the end of the day is 445 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:23,360 like regular repositories, like the the App Store that you have 446 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,360 in your mobile phone Nandra, right? 447 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,360 So you can install an application that you found 448 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,360 everywhere around the Internet, or you can just use the official 449 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,920 1. So yeah, it's it's hard because 450 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,320 at the end of the day, people are restoring value on on this 451 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,120 hardware. So that is why we need to try to 452 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,400 balance and protect user of not installing the things that are 453 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,960 not correct. What's the process of updating 454 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 your notes like for user? Because kind of like, as we all 455 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,600 know, kind of like these updates happen regularly and they are 456 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,080 often somewhat manual. So how do you, how do you kind 457 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,360 of balance security and and usability in these scenarios? 458 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:16,160 The I think the key here is that once you install a package, 459 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,360 these these package is signed by the key of the developer. 460 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,560 So somebody trying to spoof a an update or something like this, 461 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:34,920 it wouldn't pass the validation checks for for like the DAPNO 462 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,840 does. And first of all, they couldn't 463 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,680 even publish into the same, into the same repository, into the 464 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,360 same smart contract because the permissions wouldn't allow it. 465 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,880 But there is this developed trusted developer key system 466 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,520 that sort of helps you manage which develops do you want to 467 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,240 trust. And these also works for the, 468 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,040 the public App Store as well, right? 469 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,840 Like if in the public App Store, you have decided to trust some 470 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,520 developer there because you, you trust them and you, you've met 471 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800 them and there are some people who, who have reputation in the 472 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,040 space and they have published packages, then you, you will not 473 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,080 be alerted or you will be able, you'll be allowed to download 474 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,000 these packages and update them, etcetera, etcetera. 475 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:23,600 If a package is updated by a, an address, a wallet or signed by a 476 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,880 wallet that you do not trust, you will be alerted. 477 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,800 So you can, you can make sure that this is a person that you 478 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,720 trust or like an update that you trust. 479 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:40,440 Now when it comes to the updates themselves, because DAP Node is 480 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,320 already online at 24/7 and it scans the this repository, the 481 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,760 smart contract, this Argon package manager we were talking 482 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,480 about, whenever the developer publishes a new version of it, 483 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,240 the user will be will be alerted. 484 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,240 So the DAP Node will read the smart contract will read the 485 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,080 event and will say, hey, there's a new, there's a new version 486 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,520 available. And you can even set up 487 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040 automatic updates. So it will automatically update 488 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,760 to the newest version, the newest version of the of the DAP 489 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,960 note package, which is really handy because basically it takes 490 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,760 the maintenance to, to only looking at your DAP note when 491 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,080 something goes wrong. You can of course opt in or opt 492 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,200 out of those outdoor updates and you can check and and manually 493 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,520 update the the packages yourself. 494 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,360 So so how often do things actually go wrong? 495 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,920 So say I set it to auto update, how how often would you expect? 496 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,200 I kind of have to check in and manually do something by the 497 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,120 people on the DAP note discord and so on. 498 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,080 That's a good question. It kind of like the the things 499 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,640 that go wrong are usually not related to DAP. 500 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,440 Note the things that go wrong are usually related to like the 501 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,280 the power failing at home and then disconnecting the machine 502 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,400 and then the database of the execution layer clients gets 503 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,200 corrupted and you have to re sync again. 504 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Or the Internet goes down or they change your IP and or 505 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,960 there's something with the router and then you lose access 506 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,920 through through VPN. So Dabner itself is so if 507 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,600 everything goes well, you rarely have to look at it. 508 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,480 And that's actually a bit of a problem because people are 509 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,080 missing out on on new cool features and and new things 510 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,360 because they just don't have to look at their dab notes ever 511 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,720 again after setting it up. But if like if you live in an 512 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,080 area where the light is constantly going on and off like 513 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,040 you, you can expect that at some point you will have to re sync 514 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,840 your execution client because the database will will be 515 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,080 corrupted. OK, fair. 516 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,360 What proportion of dab nodes run on DAB node hardware? 517 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,760 Oh, that's an excellent question, probably my favorite. 518 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,320 And the answer is we have no idea. 519 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,680 Really. The, the reason why we have no 520 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,000 idea is because we do not capture any telemetry by 521 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,760 default. And we know that DAB nodes that 522 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,360 we have sold of course, but we have no idea if you installed 523 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,080 the free open source software into your own machine. 524 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,240 So we, we can only tell you about the DAB notes that we have 525 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,800 sold, but not about the proportion that these represent 526 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960 over the total amount of DAB notes that we have. 527 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,160 So, and this is by design because like as as Ed was 528 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,720 saying, privacy was one of like the the core principle. 529 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,600 But but you know how many dab notes there are and told you, 530 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,120 right? No, no we don't. 531 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,200 I mean, we know the ones that we have sold. 532 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,640 But you don't know how many people actually run DAP node 533 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,680 packages for for kind of validations. 534 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,000 No, OK. The only things that we can 535 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,320 measure are proxy metrics, which basically is. 536 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,120 So by default if you're using DAP node to validate, the 537 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,840 default graffiti will say validating from DAP note. 538 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:27,639 So then we can go and look at the validators that have this 539 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,920 graffiti and safely assume that they're probably running DAP 540 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,639 Note. We still don't know in which 541 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,520 hardware, like if it's hardware that we have that we have sold 542 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,960 them or or not. So we can have an idea of how 543 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,040 many validators, but again, there's a decoupling of 544 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,840 validator two hardware and we don't know if two validators are 545 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,800 running on on the same hardware either. 546 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:56,840 So it's very, very, very hard for us to know or to to even 547 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,960 estimate the amount of that notes that are that exist out 548 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,320 there. This is what you think? 549 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,520 So kind of like the the graffiti there being a good indicator. 550 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,720 Do you remember like 15 years ago or so when people started 551 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:13,840 sending emails from their iPhones and kind of it would say 552 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,480 send from iPhone, but then kind of everyone would kind of copy 553 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,480 that kind of like on their Huawei's and kind of, you know, 554 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,160 put like send from my iPhone below because kind of just this, 555 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,000 this what you did, right? OK, Yeah, yeah. 556 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,040 Joking aside. So you don't know how many, how 557 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,760 many people are running that notes, but how many that notes 558 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,320 have you sold? We have sold around 2000 DAP 559 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,960 nodes. OK. 560 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,160 OK. If you could go back to the very 561 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,160 start of DAP node, say anything you would do different Diego. 562 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,600 Well, this a really good question. 563 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,920 Other things. So to be honest, I mean we build 564 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,800 this with very strong principles. 565 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,560 We keep that from the very beginning and I'm really proud 566 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,360 of being maintaining that. Maybe I don't know at some point 567 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,640 maybe try to find a small business model to sustain this 568 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,360 project could be interesting. Maybe because for this time as 569 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,560 we have been talking, we not don't know how many people are 570 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,640 running down for value technique or or not since we have this 571 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,520 child reported graffiti. But at some point we were 572 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,560 running around 1% of the CD network and this is a lot, a 573 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,200 lot. And we were not taking anything 574 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,680 from that, just surviving with brands and, and, and, and both 575 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,120 the selling of hardware. But yeah, probably probably just 576 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,040 to get a little more for, for making this bigger because 577 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:47,160 obviously when you don't have this bigness, this model, 578 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,880 business models for, for this kind of software, it's really, 579 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,480 really hard to maintain it, especially at the very 580 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,120 beginning. So maybe try to find something 581 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,640 in the middle, Although if I need to choose, but I prefer the 582 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,120 the the path that I took in the past. 583 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,080 But yeah, obviously make our lives easier to build this. 584 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,400 It will be. It will be great at some point. 585 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,080 You had a pretty large upgrade recently, Depth node smooth talk 586 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,000 about that and kind of how that fits into the broader depth node 587 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:23,840 ecosystem. So I think we realized the 588 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:33,520 importance of smooth when when we realized that we are paying 589 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:40,600 less to solo stakers overall than to big centralized players. 590 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,480 And, and, and you could you'll go like, what? 591 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,680 Wait, what, what do you mean we're paying less these people? 592 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,320 And the reason why, why I say this is because we have taken 593 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:59,640 this MEV path on on, on Ethereum and we have decided to, to, to 594 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:07,160 manage the, the block building on this like proto PBS that that 595 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:12,000 the MEVMEV boost enables. And what what these does is 596 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,160 basically MEV distribution is follows a power law, which means 597 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,880 that very, very few blocks will have huge MEV rewards and the 598 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,880 great majority of blocks will have, you know, not so great MV 599 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,000 rewards. What that makes is that if 600 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,200 you're a big pool that has thousands of validators and 601 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,640 you're constantly producing blocks, you are bound to get 602 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,200 some lot, some of these big payout big MEV blocks, which are 603 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,120 also known as lottery blocks. So if you get one of these 604 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,080 lottery blocks, what these big pools do is they do not keep 605 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,520 that to a particular validator, right? 606 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,520 Because the validators within a pool are fungible. 607 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,400 So basically they distribute this huge reward among all of 608 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,600 the validators of the same pool and that brings the execution 609 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,080 reward higher for all of the blogs in that pool. 610 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,800 The inverse scenario is like a solo sticker that has one 611 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,040 validator and proposes around two to three blocks per year. 612 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:25,280 The chance of this validator getting a lottery block is tiny, 613 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,800 very small. So most likely, the most likely 614 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,240 scenario is that in a year one validator that is a solo 615 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:39,760 validator will not have exposure to a lottery block and we'll 616 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,320 have a small reward. Whereas one validator that is 617 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,840 part of a big pool will have a higher return because they will 618 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,400 have exposure to the lottery blocks that have fallen into 619 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,040 into this pool. So if we agree that home stakers 620 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,200 are more valuable than one marginal validator in a data 621 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,360 center because they give more resilience, more geographical 622 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,120 decentralization, more geopolitical protection, more 623 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,520 censorship resistance. So if we agree that home stakers 624 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,760 are more valuable in terms of the centralization and 625 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,680 resilience for the network, why are we paying them less? 626 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,840 But is it really the expected value? 627 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,440 So kind of like if I mean, if I kind of it in the infinite 628 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,800 margin, so kind of like I kind of I run a solo validator 629 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,600 forever kind of I will hit upon a lottery block and I won't have 630 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,280 to share with anyone. I will get to keep it all for 631 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,480 myself. So doesn't that kind of make up? 632 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,000 Yes, exactly. But it's like in an infinite 633 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,400 timeline, you are bound to get a lower block, but you might get 634 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,680 it in 200 years or in 80 years or who knows if Ethereum will 635 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,560 exist. So in a five years timeline, you 636 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,640 are much better off joining a smoothing pool because you in in 637 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,000 five years you would produce 10 blocks, for example, 10 to 15 638 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,280 blocks. And that's still very, very, 639 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,000 very little. And that is if we continue at at 640 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,360 our current level of validators, which it seems that it has a 641 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,800 stabilized a little bit lately. OK, so after we realized that 642 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,200 that the solo stickers were sort of like being short changed on 643 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,680 their execution rewards were decided to like build a pool for 644 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,280 their execution rewards. And that's literally what it is 645 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,760 like. The solution to this is 646 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,640 basically, we all pull together our execution rewards into the 647 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:47,040 same smart contract, which then distributes these rewards among 648 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,760 all of the participants of the pool. 649 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,040 Therefore, if one of us gets a lottery block, everybody else 650 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,320 gets their share of this lottery block. 651 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,200 So yes, if you get a lottery block when you're in the pool, 652 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,720 you will have to share this lottery block with everybody 653 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,680 else. But The thing is, you cannot 654 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,280 possibly know in advance that it is going to be you who will earn 655 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,160 this lottery block. So that's the trade off. 656 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:19,000 You either decide to have higher than expected execution rewards 657 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,520 by joining the pool or decide to play the lottery and have 658 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:26,800 overalls. Or most likely a scenario where 659 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,400 you have less rewards than if you had joined the pool, but you 660 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,760 get exposure to this huge lottery block that you might 661 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,480 get. So it's kind of like insurance, 662 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,880 inverse insurance. So I get a payout every month, 663 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:46,160 but kind of if I become very sick kind of to kind of I, I 664 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,560 also kind of the insurance pays that for me, right? 665 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,560 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 666 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:58,040 Tell me about kind of debt node smooth and the business model, 667 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,040 it also changes things on your end, right? 668 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,600 Yes, yes, certainly. I think so. 669 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,160 We've decided to charge a fee for smooth because it basically, 670 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,560 So what happens with the numbers, the actual numbers of 671 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,160 joining Smooth is that you will, you're expected to double your 672 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:21,920 execution rewards. So basically you, if you 673 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,680 consider execution and, and consensus rewards, you, you 674 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,800 basically maybe like you increase your total rewards of a 675 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,440 validator by 2025%, something like that. 676 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,040 If you were participating in these and you can double your 677 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,840 rewards, We've decided to take a 7% fee of all of the rewards 678 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,280 that go into the pool. And that's sort of like changes 679 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:46,720 what Ada was saying before, right? 680 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,480 Like up until now, we, we didn't have any business model built 681 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,800 into that note. And that's because DAP Node 682 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,960 makes it extremely easy to to run validators and stuff, but we 683 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,600 didn't quite develop any client implementations. 684 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,560 And basically what you're doing with DAP Node is you're 685 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,200 basically running other people's software, right? 686 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,880 So charging for this, I mean could have been an option, but 687 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,120 we decided not to go for it. But here it is something that we 688 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,800 have created and it's something that actually gives you value, 689 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,120 gives actual value to the user. It gives double the expected 690 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,560 execution rewards. So we decided to charge a fee 691 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,200 here and that brings in or starts bringing in this business 692 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:28,960 model that can make DAP not sustainable. 693 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:35,160 Are there technical challenges to kind of develop and implement 694 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,600 DAP notes smooth because it kind of from from the face of it, it 695 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,800 sounds like a pretty straightforward pulling 696 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,320 contract, no? Yeah, maybe maybe the most 697 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,480 challenging thing here is theoretical, because at the end 698 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,160 most of you know there is a disconnection between the things 699 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,000 that are happening on the situation layer and the things 700 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,760 that are happening on the consensus layer. 701 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,600 So it's not possible to to correlate this data. 702 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,440 So that is why we needed to build an article obviously. 703 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:11,960 Well, we have been talking here. We are not too much too much 704 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,920 alike with oracles, probably, but having we create a system of 705 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,560 different oracles providing the same value. 706 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,960 And obviously we envision a future in which we can replace 707 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,200 these Oracle for certain knowledge proof of the of the 708 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,320 result. But the most complex part of, of 709 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,440 this is smoothing pool has been the the article, because it's 710 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,200 the one that take cares of the, the, the results of the thing 711 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,480 they're having on the conscious layer and posting to this data 712 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,800 on chain. But yeah, following the, the 713 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,600 culture of Dubnut, we obviously did everything open source and 714 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,720 anyone can run it's own Oracle to double check that everything 715 00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:53,880 is fine. So just trying to, to be aligned 716 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,360 with, with our spirit. It's it's, I mean, we, we have a 717 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:02,160 mantra in Dubnut is decentralized until inherits it 718 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,920 works. And we try to follow that from 719 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,080 the very beginning. And because at some point there 720 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,400 are something that you can understand, realise I'm just 721 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,440 thinking about, for instance, you mentioned about automatic 722 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,600 updates. Well, we have a connection to 723 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,040 Telegram. So if you you're supporting 724 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,240 Telegram, you can get notifications in Telegram. 725 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,160 But obviously this is obtained and there is no way to send a 726 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,880 decentralised notification to a user. 727 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,360 So at some point you need to find this one. 728 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,720 I'm writing the yeah, a balance between decentralisation and 729 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:36,800 centralisation to make the things works. 730 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:40,440 So what's been the feedback like from the community for that note 731 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,000 smooth. Yeah, that's a that's a very 732 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,360 good one. People who have joint, they 733 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,520 absolutely love it. They some people were saying 734 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,200 like, Hey, I haven't even proposed a block, but I'm 735 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,000 already accumulating rewards and I don't know what the reward of 736 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,560 my next my first block is going to be, but I I know that I know 737 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,440 exactly it gives me this predictability on exactly how 738 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,680 much, how much am I going to get right? 739 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:15,800 I think most of the bad feedback has been like not really 740 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,600 understanding the difference between the expected rewards, 741 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:26,160 which are around the median and the rewards that you can put or 742 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,040 how the smooth gets your rewards closer to the average. 743 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,360 People have some some trouble understanding the difference in 744 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,280 I have a I've come up with a with a quite an easy way of 745 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:44,360 explaining it how how the median and the and the average are 746 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,240 different. So imagine that there's like 747 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:51,600 there's a company and we are all part of this company and the 748 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:58,360 owner is very fair. The owner pays €1000 to each 749 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,640 employee, including himself. So every month everybody gets 750 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,640 the same. So the the median salary, the 751 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,560 median is defined by if you put all of the the numbers or the 752 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,320 salaries in order from the biggest to the smaller, the one 753 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,000 that's right in the middle is the median, right? 754 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,360 And it's clear to say that if we're 10 employees that the 755 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,120 median will be like 1000. It's and the average, which is 756 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:28,920 defined as adding up all of the numbers and dividing by the 757 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,040 number of instances of salaries. So adding up the 1000, dividing 758 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:39,840 by 10, that's also 1000. OK, so that's these in Etherium 759 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,400 are the consensus rewards. They're equal for everyone. 760 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,720 Now imagine that the end of the year comes and me as the owner 761 00:48:51,160 --> 00:49:00,600 decide to pay myself dividends and I pay myself like I pay 762 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,200 myself like 90K off dividends. It's a huge payoff. 763 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:12,440 Not not 1000 but like like 90K. So basically at this point, on 764 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:17,160 that particular month, everybody will have their salary of 1000 765 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,360 including myself, but I will have a massive bonus of 90K. 766 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,200 So let's look at the median for that month. 767 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,160 The median for that month is going to be take all of the 768 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,280 salaries, put them one after the other and the median is still 769 00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:34,800 1000. But if you take the average, you 770 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,440 add up all of the rewards that you've been given, that's going 771 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,440 to be 10K or so, like 100K. So if you make the average, the 772 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,480 average of add the 100K divided by the number of employees 773 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,280 divided by 10, it's 10K. But this number is meaningless 774 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,520 to you as an employee. If you hear all the, the average 775 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,280 salary in or the average compensation in that in that 776 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,160 company is 10K. Well, for you that is not the 777 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,440 owner like that means nothing. And what you're interested or 778 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,640 what you're going to get is 1000, not 10K, right? 779 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,680 So something, something like this happens, except that we 780 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,640 don't have owners in, in Ethereum or like not in not in 781 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,920 the traditional sense, not in the same sense. 782 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,440 But the like we, what we have is people who are lucky enough to 783 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,160 have one of these lottery blocks. 784 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,560 And this, if somebody gets a lottery block, it pushes the 785 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,200 average up, but that doesn't mean that it means anything to 786 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,400 you who most likely are never going to get one of his lottery 787 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,360 blocks. So if you sort of like trust the 788 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,080 your probability or like look at the probability of you having 789 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,280 one of these lottery blocks. And on it, as you very well said 790 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,280 before, in a time span of five years, how many blocks am I 791 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,200 going to propose? How many of those have a chance 792 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,680 of being at a lottery block? What you're going to end up is 793 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,920 that your reward is going to be closer to the median. 794 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,120 What you can expect is closer to the median. 795 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,320 Now, what Smooth does is really pulling this 90K of bonus that I 796 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,800 gave, pulling it and making it and giving it to everybody. 797 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,560 It's like instead of being a a company, it's a cooperative. 798 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,880 And we all divide all of the all of the benefits amongst 799 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:17,480 everybody, which really does bring the total compensation to 800 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,360 10K instead of for everybody. Yeah. 801 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,000 So. So what proportion of that node 802 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,160 users have opted into smooth? Well, that would be an amazing 803 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,120 question to answer if we knew how many dabnet users we have. 804 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,760 I think it's important to mention that dabnet is simple. 805 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,200 Is not only for dabnet users, is for. 806 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,640 That's right for everyone, OK. And, and right now we have 807 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:53,880 almost 2000 validators on it. And yeah, we're, we're getting 808 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,960 considerably considerable smoothing effects already like 809 00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,120 we, we are hitting some lottery blocks. 810 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:05,160 I think the biggest one that that we got was around 1314 ETH, 811 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:10,080 something like. That, wow, let's talk about kind 812 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,840 of like staking kind of from a bird's eye perspective, right? 813 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:21,920 So kind of solo staking as admirable and virtuous as it is, 814 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,160 it's kind of economically, it's often not the best way of kind 815 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,440 of like using your ETH, right? So kind of like if I use a 816 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:38,120 liquid staking protocol, I can kind of earn rewards on my ETH 817 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,600 and at the same time kind of use it as cholesterol somewhere else 818 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,720 because kind of it becomes fungible, right? 819 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:49,640 So I don't, I don't have the, the, the, the opportunity cost 820 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,120 that I kind of have when I stake. 821 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,320 How do you see that? Yeah, I mean this is a really 822 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,160 good question. So the the that we are seeing or 823 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,720 at least from my Pandas view is that is at some point we are 824 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,440 putting incentives in the ground place. 825 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,360 I mean, as Paul mentioned before, we should need to divide 826 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,440 more the the solar staking. But I think that is happening 827 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,120 is, is the percent is I mean the people that are not doing solar 828 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:26,680 staking are having more benefits, are having less, less 829 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,760 or more facilities to make this happen. 830 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,360 And especially with the leakage sticking as you mentioned. 831 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,360 Now what I expect in the future is to have this look at this 832 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,320 tickets on the shows combined with DBT. 833 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,640 Because now right now one of the big issues for for Dubnot and 834 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,240 for solar staking is that 32 is it is a lot of money and not all 835 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:47,800 the people can afford that obviously. 836 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,080 So if we are able to combine these DVD solutions and 837 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,320 liquidity staking and make anyone to be part of this 838 00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:03,040 decentralized network validation in, in a way that make easy 839 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,160 makes easy for them and also provide this value of, of 840 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,360 liquidate shaking. I think it's the the future that 841 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,720 we need to spend or, or the thing that we are trying to 842 00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:14,720 achieve. Because otherwise we are going 843 00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:17,720 to end up in the same situation in the past, like in Bitcoin, 844 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,960 where most of the the minor are controlled by the same people. 845 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,840 And, and from the very beginning of the city and the centralized 846 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,680 channel was always one was there. 847 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,600 And, and that is why today we are able to run by theaters from 848 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,080 now consumer hardware, because it was always one of the 849 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,640 principles of the season. So I hope that in the future we 850 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:42,640 can start to go this direction of, of being able to to take the 851 00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:46,400 seminar fees or even more for solar sticker and and not 852 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,040 benefit to the one that are going in the centralized 853 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,960 direction or centralized path. You just mentioned DVT, can you 854 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,720 maybe explain that? Yeah, sure. 855 00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:03,080 I mean, The thing is currently the keys to make a senator of 856 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,400 validator has they, they have a lot of power and and they can 857 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,000 sign a message, they can slot you. 858 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,440 So you have an issue. You cannot decentralize this key 859 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,680 or give this key of validation to anyone because they can 860 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,400 search you, they can do bad things with this key. 861 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,040 So the the very kind of DVD of the DVD technology is to create 862 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,680 a way in which no one has the control of this key. 863 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:35,120 And with the senator of three or five or end of N members of this 864 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,200 committee, they can make this senatorial of the valuation. 865 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,160 This allow us to give this power of valuation without exposing 866 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,040 and and to be exposed to the risk of of exposing the key. 867 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:52,320 So the other hand of this DVD is just to create small groups of 868 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,840 people sharing a key but not having the control of this key 869 00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,080 allowing to anyone to to trash on this decentralized manner of 870 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,400 signing things. And if you put this together 871 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,600 with like staking, you can take ether from people if a leakage 872 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,240 derivative of this ether and put this ether to validate on a 873 00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:14,000 decentralized system of people running this mutantly. 874 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,160 So that's distributed validation, right? 875 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,120 So kind of like you need less than 30 to eat and you can kind 876 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,040 of pour those together and kind of you can do it in a trustless 877 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:25,640 manner. Is that more or less it? 878 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,800 Yeah, yeah, much better than my inspiration for sure. 879 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,680 No, no, I, yeah. And yeah. 880 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,840 So kind of why, why would that kind of eliminate the 881 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,320 opportunity cost that people currently face when they solo 882 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,720 stick? Yeah, The thing is that 883 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:49,880 currently you will can run 32. I mean one validator 62 is I 884 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,960 mean, obviously we we cannot see you. 885 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,360 It's, it's, it's just one video. So it's much, much easier 886 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,800 talking about the difficulties that mainly that is why we have 887 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,280 more validators in industries rather than the city probably 888 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,600 because it's more affordable, it's more accessible for for 889 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,160 users to be bought into the network. 890 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,240 But in the case you can only run 3364. 891 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:15,800 So it's a lot of money probably if you have a hardware you were 892 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,240 willing to run, I don't know 101,000 validators in the same 893 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,560 hardware, right. But you are not having access to 894 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,360 this speak about of either or maybe some people, but not the 895 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,080 regular people. So The thing is to find, I mean 896 00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,240 it's like we have a pool of people having and maintaining 897 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,120 hardware willing to run validators for other ones. 898 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,720 And in the other side, we have people with ease willing to 899 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,400 decentralize this. So at the moment that you are 900 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,760 able to trash on this decentralized Hardwell let you 901 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,640 know people validating. Maybe you're at home and going 902 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,320 to run only a solar staker. I mean, you can run your 903 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,600 validator this 32, eight plus validators from other people 904 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,240 from this poll allowing you to get more benefits and and reduce 905 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,280 your operational cost because you are just running your 906 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,760 validator plus the valid those other ones and get into the work 907 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,600 of of doing this this job for them. 908 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:17,280 So yeah, maybe this is the idea. But you can't use the stake eat 909 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,440 as collateral as you can kind of do when you have liquid staking, 910 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:22,960 right? Kind of like when, when, when a 911 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,320 liquid stake, I get a liquid token back that I can use as 912 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,080 collateral elsewhere to kind of take out more ether or whatever, 913 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,440 right? And kind of and yield on that as 914 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,320 well. So kind of I can leverage up. 915 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,600 Yeah, as a user, I think I would say it's even better what you 916 00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:42,160 can do, which is you can you, you can put, you can be running 917 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,800 and operating a validator without a bond. 918 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,440 And so as Zelda was saying, there's there's this people who 919 00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:53,480 have the ETH and they need to be running like the pools or 920 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,480 centralized exchanges or, or liquid staking pools. 921 00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,080 They have the ETH and there's no reason why before DVD they 922 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,760 would, they would untrust random users on the Internet to, to run 923 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,760 their validators, to run validators for them, because 924 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,840 they owe it to the people who have surrendered their 925 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,280 liquidity, their actual ETH for staking. 926 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,560 They owe it to offer them a proper yield. 927 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,360 And if like they, they need to ensure that the operations of 928 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,560 these validators are OK. Now with DVT, what they can do 929 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,240 is they could, they can give it to groups of random people on 930 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,200 the Internet that they've gathered together. 931 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:29,040 They've created a DVT cluster and and now they can present 932 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:34,200 themselves as credible node operators because if one of them 933 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,640 goes down as it's as it would be perfectly normal on a home set 934 00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,440 up, the rest of the cluster picks up the slack and what they 935 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,280 can do. So as an operator now let's 936 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,440 let's look at it like as an operator, you don't even need to 937 00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:55,440 actually be a staker to benefit from the like the the rewards of 938 00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,320 operating. So you will get paid as an 939 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,560 infrastructure provider, not as a staker anymore. 940 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,520 So you're basically, you don't even have to put up any capital. 941 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,440 So right now there's only one program that that does this or I 942 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,920 think maybe two programs that do this, that they require. 943 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,960 No, no bond. There's Ether Fi with the 944 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:21,880 Operation Solo Staker and they manage their DVT clusters and 945 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,960 they, they give ether from the Ether Fi protocol for them to, 946 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,040 to, to run validators on. And then there's the simple DVT 947 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:33,000 module of Lido. So in order to participate in 948 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,800 either of those, you don't really need to put up any bond. 949 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,400 So there's literally no cost of opportunity, you just need to 950 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,880 run the hardware. OK. 951 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,560 And I, I understand that kind of if you're the person kind of 952 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,520 running the hardware. But if you, you're the person 953 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,600 with the ETH and you're still better off kind of doing this in 954 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,280 a way where kind of you get a fungible token back that you can 955 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,080 use in things. Because kind of like when you 956 01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:01,880 kind of stake kind of in a DVT set up, you get no fungible 957 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:06,440 token back that you can, you can still utilize, right? 958 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,120 Yeah, that is correct. You, you don't either give you 959 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:17,840 want if you have the ETH and you want to have a liquid 960 01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,080 representation for it, you're obviously better off like DVD is 961 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,880 not useful for that. Then you have like other things 962 01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:30,720 like you can create like a, a vault on stake wise and that 963 01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,360 will create a liquid presentation of the ETH staked 964 01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:34,760 in that Volt. And then you're, what you're 965 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,000 introducing is you're introducing a layer of smart 966 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,520 contract complexity in here. But if you're OK with this, then 967 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:44,800 you can transform the ETH of your Volt into OS ETH, which is 968 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,960 which then you can use on D5. So you you can totally do that 969 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,840 as well by not necessarily by using DVT, but by using other 970 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,520 solutions like Stakewise Volts. OK, Yeah, I, I, I understand the 971 01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,600 other, the other thing that kind of gets discussed very 972 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,120 critically is re staking. What's your take? 973 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,280 I knew that. Yeah, maybe just very quickly in 974 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,160 a nutshell, kind of re stakings the idea that you can use the 975 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,720 same collateral twice to kind of stake for different things. 976 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,480 So kind of like if you already have EAT staked on Etherium, you 977 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,240 could also use it to validate on 7 other protocols and kind of be 978 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,600 slashed on the same ETH, which kind of allows you to kind of 979 01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,480 multiply the yield you can generate on that ETH. 980 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,120 It also possibly overloads the security consensus. 981 01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,320 So yeah, what? What's your take? 982 01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,240 Yeah. So I think it is a great idea in 983 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:48,640 practice, having all of these ETH sitting there is and and not 984 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,400 being slashed is could be like could be seen by some people as 985 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,280 like a, a waste, right? Like all of this ether that only 986 01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,400 serves to validate Etherium and it could be reused for for other 987 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,480 protocols. So, but mostly I think it's 988 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:11,120 given way to greet and the ability to or the the 989 01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,880 willingness to get more rewards out of the same ETH. 990 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:22,160 And this basically endangers endangers Ethereum as a whole. 991 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:27,160 Like in the case of a mass a slashing event on the restaking 992 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:34,240 protocol like ETH could see like like this. 993 01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,600 Let's let's bear in mind that this is actually not ETH that 994 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:42,440 it's not staked at the same level as the as the consensus 995 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,680 layer. So it's not burnt, but it it 996 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,160 will be sold and it will basically dump the price. 997 01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:55,400 So a massive re slashing event, re staking slashing event would 998 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,520 would be very, very negative for Etherium. 999 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,040 And I think it's something that has to be like it. 1000 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:11,920 It is OK to be tried slowly, but I think it's been overblown and 1001 01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,600 sort of incentivized with all these points protocols. 1002 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,320 And it increases risk and complexity in a way that we stop 1003 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,880 being in, in control of the financial products that are 1004 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:30,200 built on top of stakes of, of the security of the consensus 1005 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,000 of, of Ethereum. And it exposes the consensus of 1006 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,880 a theorem to a lot of complexity in the same way as the 1007 01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:46,520 repackaged mortgages exposed the financial system to to a lot of 1008 01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:51,000 risk in a way that we could not possibly understand what was 1009 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,600 what was going on behind the financial products that that 1010 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,480 were that were created in 2008, for example. 1011 01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:59,680 Do you agree? Yeah. 1012 01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:04,040 I mean, I totally agree with Paul is, I mean is this feeling 1013 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,520 that we are putting leverage limited on, on the ether. 1014 01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,840 And I mean when the thing in the right direction, everything 1015 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,880 looks good. But the moment that you are 1016 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:19,240 increasing this leverage and if something goes wrong, it can be 1017 01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,760 completely structured. So at the end of the day, I 1018 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,880 think it's also important how how much I mean how this growth 1019 01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,960 this this risk taking. I mean, at the low level, I 1020 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:32,920 think we can be more or less safe. 1021 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,800 But if this become as if I think the the risk that we are taking 1022 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,000 is like putting leverage on Ethereum itself. 1023 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:44,800 So I think we need to take this into account because yeah, I am 1024 01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,360 in this chain effects that can happen. 1025 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,480 You have link everything. So if something happened in one 1026 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,560 chain, it can be a massive situation for the other two ones 1027 01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:01,000 and and and be a wave that destroy everything. 1028 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,760 So yeah, this is feeling that in principle, it's a really great 1029 01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,440 idea. I mean, but when you start to 1030 01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:09,600 think about all the consequences that is compared to the 1031 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,040 ecosystem, well, it's the feeling is that it's, it's 1032 01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:15,920 really risky or that's my, my point. 1033 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:22,200 The other larger topic that's currently very much under debate 1034 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:26,840 is issuance. So kind of the idea that kind of 1035 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,680 if you already have a million validators, having another 1036 01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,080 validators are very limited marginal value, whereas kind of 1037 01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:38,920 if you only have say 10 validators, having an 11th is of 1038 01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:43,680 much bigger value. So why, where do you stand on on 1039 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,800 that debate? So kind of how do you measure 1040 01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,160 the value added by each additional validator? 1041 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:57,680 Yeah, the issue is, is probably also a hard topic. 1042 01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,960 I have heard boys in different directions about this. 1043 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,280 How, how how to measure the success. 1044 01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,240 Success of a network from my point of view is how much you 1045 01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:11,760 are able to make it decentralized. 1046 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,040 Other people is missing other things for me. 1047 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,600 If you are increasing the issuance of the network, you are 1048 01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,720 getting probably more rewards. So that means that more people 1049 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:27,480 are going to get into the ecosystem. 1050 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,720 But The thing is since the current it's in your network is, 1051 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:35,160 is situation more decentralized way to do the things because 1052 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,640 it's not real flows to centralized providers. 1053 01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:42,320 Probably the thing that you are going to see is just more people 1054 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:44,920 with more money or doesn't feel it. 1055 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:50,280 So at the end, even I, I, I prefer the opposite just to have 1056 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,840 people that really believe on the, on, on the core values and, 1057 01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,720 and not being healed only for the rewards. 1058 01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:02,680 So probably in the direction of, of, of reducing the issues, not 1059 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:07,200 increasing the issue at all. And but yeah, I mean the enough 1060 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:11,680 depends also, I mean, if you are able to to create a more 1061 01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,720 decentralized network, that's my point and and that's my feeling. 1062 01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:22,240 I think it all stems from the impossibility to know what, what 1063 01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:25,040 is a decentralized validator that actually adds more value. 1064 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:32,200 Like if we had a a proper way of measuring this, then it would be 1065 01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,080 very easy. Like, OK, we, we keep the 1066 01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:38,880 centralized or we have some sort of like asymptotic rewards curve 1067 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,960 on, on how many validators you, you can have. 1068 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:48,560 So the first validators increase your reward quite a bit and the 1069 01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:52,600 like after like you reach a certain plateau of validators, 1070 01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,760 then your issuance or your like the ETH that you mint on your 1071 01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:00,600 validators, your consensus rewards lowers or tapers down 1072 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,399 the like. Of course, this is an extremely 1073 01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,359 naive approach and it would being at the completely 1074 01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:10,560 decentralized platform. What this would what this would 1075 01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,160 do is like it would give raise to like a lot of civil attacks 1076 01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,359 and and people would pretend to have low validators. 1077 01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:22,000 So that's not something that's on the cards right now. 1078 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:29,200 And like, if we like I, I honestly don't think reducing 1079 01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:37,680 issuance is a good idea because there is a, like we see it in 1080 01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,840 our community. A lot of people in Dabnode, even 1081 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,040 though they are, like we, we said that they are ideologically 1082 01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,399 motivated, at least in part, they do also want rewards. 1083 01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,160 And it's not that they hate money, you know, like they, they 1084 01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,720 do like, they do like their rewards and they want to 1085 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:58,040 maximize them. And if the rewards go down above 1086 01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:01,040 like below a a certain threshold, they will stop 1087 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,480 validating. But other big institutions or 1088 01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:07,640 people who are less hands on or people that have less cost of 1089 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:13,680 opportunity for for running their own validators, those they 1090 01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,680 they might be OK unless the issuance is negative. 1091 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:22,440 So with a non, with a non negative or non 0 issuance or 1092 01:10:22,440 --> 01:10:24,800 reward, they, they would be OK on keeping this. 1093 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,560 So I see reducing issuance in a naive way just reducing it. 1094 01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:35,080 I see it also as a negative for the decentralization of the of 1095 01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:39,800 the network. Now there are some things that 1096 01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,880 that I think could be done. So right now we have correlation 1097 01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:49,760 penalties for slashing events and it is suggested that we 1098 01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:53,000 could have correlation penalties for missed attestations as well 1099 01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:57,040 for being offline. But I think it would be really 1100 01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:04,680 funny if there would be a way of reward. 1101 01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:06,960 So there's, there's this thing, there's the Unicorn Unicorn 1102 01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:08,600 Chaos day. I think it's the status theme 1103 01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,600 that that implemented it. Unicorn Chaos day is a day where 1104 01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,840 people try to hack their own, the, the things that they are 1105 01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:16,920 building themselves. They, they, it's just a day for 1106 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,880 testing security. I think it would be amazing to 1107 01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,040 implement something like this in Ethereum, something where if you 1108 01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:26,240 can prove that you are making the an entire group of 1109 01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,240 validators go down at the same time and miss at the stations, 1110 01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:32,960 if you can prove that it was you, you get part of these 1111 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:34,960 correlated attestation penalties. 1112 01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:39,200 You get them for yourself. So you're still like only 1113 01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:40,800 playing. It's it's a safe game because 1114 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,240 you're still only playing with like missed attestations. 1115 01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:46,280 You're not, you're not slashing the principles or so to speak. 1116 01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,760 And it could be targeted at like players that have or like, yeah, 1117 01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,720 like more having more than 1000 validators, for example. 1118 01:11:55,000 --> 01:12:00,520 So if you manage and you can prove that it's you who like 1119 01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,800 destroyed a data center, not destroyed, sorry, like a went a 1120 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:08,000 like effectively attacked a group of validators that that 1121 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,240 are an easy target because they're all together, then you 1122 01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:12,440 get part of the reward. And that would be an interesting 1123 01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:16,720 case where people would be like actively watchtowering the 1124 01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,720 bewatts hours for, for these centralized actors, right? 1125 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:24,680 And that would mean that it's less profitable to run 1126 01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:28,600 validators in a centralized spot because you're risking yourself 1127 01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:31,040 to being attacked. And if you have to decentralize 1128 01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,680 them in different in different spots, that will also increase 1129 01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:37,440 your costs. So it will be less that you'll 1130 01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:41,160 be able to give less profit to the liquid staking 1131 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,120 representation. So at the same time, solo 1132 01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,120 stakers do not are not affected because they usually run less 1133 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,280 than 1000 validators. So they would, they wouldn't be 1134 01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,200 a target for for these sort of people. 1135 01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:56,480 So effectively what this does is it increases the costs of 1136 01:12:56,480 --> 01:12:58,720 securing their own infrastructure operations for 1137 01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:02,800 big players and it has no impact on solo stickers. 1138 01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:06,760 I'd like to see something like that implemented. 1139 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:13,280 So what do you guys have in store over the next, you know, 1140 01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:23,080 months or years with that node? Yeah, I think the so we've been 1141 01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:26,960 talking a lot about staking and the issuance right now is quite 1142 01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,520 low and we're not seeing that much influx on on staking, 1143 01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,320 right. So a lot of what's happening 1144 01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,800 internally in that note is looking at ways to leverage 1145 01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:40,680 these hardware already existing in people's homes to give them 1146 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,960 access to privacy preserving technologies or self sovereign 1147 01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:49,520 technologies in a way that they that that they're using that 1148 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,720 hardware that's giving them some some sort of return in order to 1149 01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,200 provide more value out of it. And here what we're talking 1150 01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,360 about is we're talking about running local models. 1151 01:13:58,440 --> 01:14:02,560 For example, we have a proof of concept where we have local 1152 01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,200 models running on a dab note and you can communicate with them 1153 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:10,440 through a Telegram bot the same way as you speak on a chat 1154 01:14:10,440 --> 01:14:14,320 interface with ChatGPT. But instead of ChatGPT and 1155 01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:18,480 giving your away all of your data to open AI, you're talking 1156 01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:23,880 to your own local model, right? I think the, the future of open 1157 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:30,560 source and local AI is, is really brilliant because we, 1158 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,280 there are certain things that we are not going to we, we are not. 1159 01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:39,240 So basically AIS are, are just sort of like exocortex is like 1160 01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:43,520 this third party brains that, that we pay to access, right. 1161 01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:50,680 And for some things like work, we're, we're going to be using 1162 01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,400 stuff that is, that is the maximum, the foundational model, 1163 01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,200 that's the maximum performance. But at some point we will want 1164 01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:00,680 something that is ours, some agent that is not tamperable, 1165 01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:04,360 some agent that really works for us and it's controlled by us and 1166 01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:09,720 maybe decides whether we can ask a foundational model or we can, 1167 01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:14,200 we can have our own or we will use our own data to do to do 1168 01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,160 something like this. So that that note, I think it's 1169 01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:19,600 perfectly positioned to to provide those services. 1170 01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,680 And that's sort of like what we're looking into right now. 1171 01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:28,560 Super interesting. Yeah, my partner is just to 1172 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,840 think about a lot of applications that in which 1173 01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:38,480 privacy and EA like for instance, I mean that you can 1174 01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:42,720 connect your local model to your Google Drive and you can make 1175 01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:46,160 index queries on the data. And that's for, I don't know 1176 01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,800 anything in your documents or in your photos or in your back 1177 01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:54,840 accounts or you might need to connect AI to your emails and 1178 01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,880 make summaries of all your emails or you're still got a 1179 01:15:57,880 --> 01:15:59,400 conversation or you have to remind that. 1180 01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:04,040 I mean, I see a lot of applications in which I mean, I 1181 01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,080 can help you a lot, but it's so sensible. 1182 01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,560 The information that you want to take a look is so sensible that 1183 01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,320 you have no, not you are not going to never connect to a 1184 01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,440 centralized provider. You are not the absolutely 1185 01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:19,000 partner contest and this point and also because it's also part 1186 01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,760 of our core values mixing the privacy with this technology 1187 01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,280 that provides a lot of value. I see a lot of potential 1188 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,720 application that makes totally sense and and can bring a new 1189 01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:31,080 party on this on this new applications. 1190 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:36,400 Cool, fantastic guys. Where can people learn more 1191 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,320 about that node? Download the software by 1192 01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:44,520 hardware even and how can they be in touch with you guys? 1193 01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:54,520 Right, so dabnode.com is our website, the APP node and OD 1194 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,200 edabnode.com that's that's our website and all of our socials 1195 01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:04,440 are also listed there. And we have a super great 1196 01:17:04,440 --> 01:17:08,040 Discord community that really helps both with the 1197 01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:12,000 installations of the open source software and also with support 1198 01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:16,600 and also like providing feedback for the hardware, etcetera, and 1199 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,760 with guides on to on how to do things on that note. 1200 01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:24,240 So we have an amazing community. Our Discord is probably the best 1201 01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,560 way of interacting with this community and see if that note 1202 01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:29,840 is for you from the website as well. 1203 01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:31,880 You can. You can download the software to 1204 01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,680 your own machine, or you can access the shop and buy a plug 1205 01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:39,520 and play hardware that will bring that note to your home 1206 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,320 without any technical knowledge. Perfect. 1207 01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:47,520 Thank you both for coming on. Thank you for having us. 1208 01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,600 Thanks again for inviting us here. 1209 01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:54,840 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1210 01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:56,840 We release new episodes every week. 1211 01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,200 You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, 1212 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,240 YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 1213 01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,520 And if you have a Google Home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1214 01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:08,560 listen to the latest episode of the Epicenter podcast. 1215 01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,640 Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a full list of places where you 1216 01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:14,840 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 1217 01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,320 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 1218 01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:20,480 inbox as they're released. If you want to interact with us 1219 01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:23,160 guests or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on 1220 01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,160 Twitter and please leave us. A review on iTunes helps people 1221 01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:28,000 find the show and we're always happy to read them. 1222 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,360 But thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.