1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 It's interesting to to note is that app chains at least in the 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,840 in the broadest sense of sort of like an app specific execution 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,520 environment are winning. Like in the first cycle they 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,440 were sort of Ronin and flow and step in the cycle there was DYDX 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,840 hyperliquid. It's clear that there's product 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,040 market fit for large projects doing like app specific 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,600 environments. Most of them are going for L 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,400 twos nowadays rather than L ones, and I think that makes a 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,120 lot of sense, which is also why initial design makes so much 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,680 sense. Allowing teams to build entire 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:38,840 Cosmos SDK chains in whatever VM they want as roll ups on Initia 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,440 and have instant access to basically everything they need 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,200 from explorers. Liquidity integrations, rewards 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,720 kind of all the participants of a world that's so fragmented in 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,360 terms of, you know, L twos that care about themselves and their 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:59,840 growth, users on the L1 stakers. How do we align all these 17 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:01,400 people? And we've basically built a very 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,200 robust economic framework that lets us do that, which is called 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,160 Initiative VIP. Welcome to Epicenter of the show 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,160 which talks about the technologies, projects and 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,640 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 22 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,880 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Zon who is the Co 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:23,040 founder of Initiia and we are joined today by two very special 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,840 guests, guest hosts. So Jose Macedo, who's the Co 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,360 founder of Delphi and he runs at Delphi Labs part and then Anil 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,560 who is the CEO and founder of Delphi. 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,080 So Initia is a layer one blockchain that's designed 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:47,720 around deploying customized interconnected or interval, as 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,680 they call it, roll ups. They've just launched. 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,720 So really excited to dive into initial today. 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,600 So just before we get started, we'd like to share a few words 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,640 from our sponsors this week. If you're looking to stake your 33 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,720 crypto with confidence, look no further than course one. 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,800 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bit 35 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,440 Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger Trust Course One with their 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,600 assets, they support over 50 block chains and their leaders 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,920 in governance or networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is 38 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:20,880 responsibly managed. Thanks to the advanced MEV 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,720 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,200 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,960 label note, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,240 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,880 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,760 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, A collective 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,240 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 46 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,960 Nosys leads innovation with Circles, Nosys Pay and Metri, 47 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,240 reshaping open banking and money. 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,680 With Hashi and Nosys VPN, they're building a more 49 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,160 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,360 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Nosys Chain 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,720 offers the same development environment as Ethereum with 52 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,800 lower transaction fees. It's supported by over 200,000 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,240 ballot errors, making Nosys Chain a reliable and credibly 54 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,160 neutral foundation for your applications. 55 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,480 Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis governance, where every voice 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,200 matters. Join the Gnosis community in the 57 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,600 Gnosis Dow forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,720 Gnosis Chain or secure the network with just one GNO and 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,760 affordable hardware. Start your decentralization 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,000 journey today at gnosis dot IO. Cool. 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,080 Well, thanks so much for coming on guys. 62 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,200 This is this is going to be fun and it's kind of a different 63 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,560 format than we usually do, but I think it's a it'll be a good 64 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,760 one. So maybe we can just do some 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,480 introduction. Let's just go around, maybe Zon, 66 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,560 do you want to start? Sure. 67 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,920 Howdy fellas, I'm Zon. As Brian initially said, I'm one 68 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,720 of the Co founders of Initia. We just launched. 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,160 It was pretty awesome. I think we launched the initial 70 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,960 L1 plus around 10 layer twos all in different VMS all at the same 71 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,040 time. It might be the largest 72 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,000 orchestrated multi chain launch ever probably. 73 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,519 I don't think people usually launch multiple changes at the 74 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,520 same time. So this is probably the only one 75 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,920 that happened, but also I guess the largest. 76 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,520 Yeah, I'm sure we'll dive further into it, but pass it 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,320 over to Aniel. Yeah. 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,480 So I'm one of the Co founders of Delphi. 79 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,840 We've been early supporters of ZON and the initial team for a 80 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:40,960 while now. So it was super excited about 81 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,880 this launch and yeah, excited to be here to talk about Initia. 82 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,080 I'm sure Josie and I will talk about our whole like, you know, 83 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 app chain thesis, the failure with it and then how we kind of 84 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,240 it up, you know, diving down an initial rabbit hole. 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,280 Yeah, I'm, I'm Josie. I split my time between Delphi 86 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,000 Labs and Delphi Ventures. Adventures actually LED this 87 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,680 initial investment and known ZON for for a few years now. 88 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:13,640 And yeah, hoping ZON can make app chains finally work and 89 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,640 avenge our avenge. I think all of us on this call 90 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,000 have been bullish Cosmos, which isn't, which isn't ideal, hasn't 91 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,440 been ideal. So hoping hoping ZON can run it 92 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,640 back and make make app chains finally work. 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,000 Inshallah. Brother, Yeah. 94 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,120 Maybe zon you get so you were building on Terra before. 95 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,840 I'm curious, what were what was your experience building on 96 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:42,680 Terra and how did that led to you starting Initia? 97 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,800 Yeah, So I I wasn't just building on Terra. 98 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,520 Before that, I worked at Terra as a smart contract dev. 99 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,960 It was like my first time getting into smart contracting 100 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,760 and building in crypto. Before that, I was just a 101 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,280 regular software engineer. I played a lot with Ethereum but 102 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:04,880 never actually built contracts there. 103 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,120 And so Cosmosome and Terra were my first time, you know, 104 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,480 actually doing that. And it was a lot of fun. 105 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,240 I thought it was really interesting. 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,400 Cosmosome was cool. I got to learn Rust for the 107 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,800 first time. All these new principles when it 108 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,920 comes to building smart contracts. 109 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,440 And the craziest 1 is just that stuff doesn't execute 110 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,440 automatically and like something has to poke a smart contract to 111 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,000 move. And that was just like a crazy 112 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,400 paradigm shift in my mind. And as a opposed to building in 113 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,080 Web 2. And so that was a lot of fun. 114 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,120 I got to build some really cool applications. 115 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,640 And then I left Terraform to build my own project with my 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,240 current Co founder Stan. And it was an options project 117 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:57,040 that was basically hooked into Anchor along with we had a lot 118 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,160 of the ecosystem teams ready with integrations. 119 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,000 And it's really exciting because Terra as a chain was like one of 120 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,880 the most vibrant ecosystems out of any blockchain that existed 121 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,680 at the time. Obviously a lot of it was fueled 122 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,640 by Anchor, which we know was super unsustainable, but it was 123 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,320 like this crazy run that was happening in Cosmos, and Terra 124 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,200 really was all of Cosmos. And I think it was somewhat 125 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,120 propping up the app chain thesis to a big extent because we're 126 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,600 like, hey, look, this one app chain really succeeded, but none 127 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,000 of the others really also succeeded in their own merits. 128 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,720 And so once Terror collapsed, I think that with it, a lot of the 129 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,680 app chains and Cosmos just crumbled. 130 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,680 And obviously the project that I was building, that didn't make 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,640 any sense anymore. And so we scrapped that return 132 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,360 money back to our investors who funded us back then. 133 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,760 And then basically a few months later, we're thinking about what 134 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,480 to build next because me and Stan still want to do something. 135 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,040 And we started basically thinking about Initia and 136 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,920 rebuilding the app chain thesis with a much heavier guiding 137 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,440 hand, one where you shape it's creation, the first few app 138 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,760 chains and how everything comes to play rather than leaving it 139 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:24,120 all up to an open source system. Yeah, that was kind of the the 140 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,760 beginnings of that. And when I was working on Terra 141 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,160 is when I first met Jose and Anil. 142 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,880 I think at the time they were on the labs team working on 143 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Astroport. And that's actually How I Met my 144 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,320 Co founder Stan. He was designing Building Uni V3 145 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,040 or concentrated liquidity pools press report and I was supposed 146 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,440 to help build it. So thanks, Jose. 147 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,800 You're welcome. So yeah, let's talk about the 148 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,840 app chain thesis more generally. I mean, I guess if you sort of 149 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:05,000 zoom out, right, then the thing that everyone competes for the 150 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,600 most in crypto, I would say is like application developers, 151 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:09,920 right? And application developers have 152 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,560 a lot of different options today. 153 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,720 You could build, maybe you need maintenance, but you know, fees 154 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,800 are high. So that's probably not the 155 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,640 preferred choice for most people. 156 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,320 But you have things like Solana and Bass, you know, that are at 157 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,920 the top, right, where you can just build your smart contract 158 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,760 on there. Or you could say you build your 159 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,800 own L1, right? So that has maybe struggled a 160 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,040 bit, but it's still happening quite a lot, right? 161 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,640 People still build their own L1, whether it's like, you know, a 162 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,800 kind of totally new L1 or whether it's maybe Cosmos chains 163 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,880 or you know, some other people competing trying to compete 164 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,280 there, maybe like Avalanche and and some others trying to go in 165 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,120 or there's roll ups, right? And then roll ups again. 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,160 There's many options where you could deploy on an existing roll 167 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,800 up or do your own roll up and you do your own roll up. 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:08,040 You can do it on Ethereum, you could do maybe some sovereign 169 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,640 roll up on Celestia, right? Or you could build on initial 170 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,920 rights like interval and roll up. 171 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,480 How maybe for any of you guys, how do you guys see the sort of 172 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,040 pros and cons here and the state of the app chain thesis? 173 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,360 So, yeah, I think that the the trade-offs and I think one thing 174 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,560 that's interesting to to note is that app chains at least in the, 175 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:36,600 in the broadest sense of of sort of like an app specific 176 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,880 execution environment are like winning. 177 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,480 You know, we've seen it and, and across all cycles, right. 178 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,720 Like in the first cycle, there was sort of Ronin and flow and 179 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,880 step in, in this cycle there was DYDX, Hyperliquid Blast abstract 180 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,640 converge. Now, like it's clear that 181 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,960 there's product market fit for large projects doing like app 182 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,880 specific environments. Most of them are going for L 183 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,600 twos nowadays rather than L ones. 184 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,120 And I think that makes a lot of sense, which is also why 185 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:07,800 initiative design makes so much sense. 186 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,360 And I think the the main reason that people do this is because 187 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,840 sovereignty and customizability matter, right? 188 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,960 Developers want to control the ground they build on. 189 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,120 They want to be able to build fully vertically integrated 190 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,600 experiences. They don't want to necessarily 191 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,520 compete for block space face like uncertain costs. 192 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,760 They might want to customize parts of their stack. 193 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,840 They might even want to be able to like rollback state if they 194 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,040 need to, right, without relying on an L1 having to do that if 195 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,320 there's a hack or something like that. 196 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,680 So I think there's a lot of reasons for going into an app 197 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:41,880 specific environment. And I think that thesis is 198 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,040 winning. The thing that didn't win was 199 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,800 like Cosmos, right? Or, or I guess like Cosmos SDK 200 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,000 has done, has done well, has done OK, but Cosmos, so like 201 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,440 Adam is a token and and sort of the tokens in that ecosystem 202 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,840 haven't really done well. And to me, Cosmos just sort of 203 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,320 misunderstood the role of an of, of like the hub that a hub needs 204 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,600 to provide to app chains, right. And I think part of it is 205 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,080 because it was conceived 10 years ago before anyone who was 206 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,560 even talking about L twos and most of the design decisions 207 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:15,320 were made optimizing for sovereign chains rather than 208 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,480 roll ups. But the second thing and most 209 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,720 important, I think, is that it's sort of misunderstood what 210 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,360 projects want from like their hub, right from, from, from, 211 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,600 from a hub, like the realities of what they want. 212 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,560 Like they thought, oh, well, all they need is like this optional 213 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:34,880 security. But actually that that's like 214 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,720 not at all the, the, the stuff that's most pressing, like the 215 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,000 the hardest things about doing in app chains and the biggest 216 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,280 trade-offs in launching one versus launching on an existing 217 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,400 chain is simple stuff like wallet integrations. 218 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,680 Like you have to do your own wallet integrations. 219 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,080 You have to do if you're, if you integrate with a centralized 220 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,720 exchange, they need to integrate with your chain. 221 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,520 It's way, way harder to get that done. 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,600 Block explorers, like there's no block explorer even some of the 223 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,000 like biggest change today. I mean, Solana block explorer is 224 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,880 notoriously crap, right? You don't have canonical bridged 225 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,440 assets with, with liquidity, right? 226 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,680 So you won't have stable coins. You're going to have like this, 227 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,680 this alphabet soup of stable coins with different, with 228 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,560 different prefixes. And then there's like the 229 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,320 intangibles, which is the, the business development and 230 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,840 ecosystem development, which is actually like one of the most 231 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,840 important parts, right? If you're a high project on 232 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,640 Solana, you get a lot of benefit from that. 233 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,200 Like there's a bunch of people that go farm your AirDrop people 234 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,400 are active on like Solana Foundation tweets. 235 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,600 You people will be active on your Discord just because you 236 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,960 have that ecosystem behind you of everyone that owns Seoul and 237 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,360 wants your project to succeed because it's good for Seoul. 238 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,680 And all of this was missing from from Cosmos. 239 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,680 Like there was no, there was no unified way to bet on Cosmos. 240 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:48,680 Like it never happened, right? And at the same time, every time 241 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,720 he launched a new chain, you faced all these issues. 242 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,320 And so there was just, it was just very costly to build an app 243 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,160 chain. And this doesn't even go for the 244 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,640 fact of like bootstrapping validators having to to payout 245 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,840 inflation, fragmenting UX. And so initially just sort of 246 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,440 from my perspective, really reinvented like rethought from 247 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,760 first principles. What does what what do you want 248 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,280 from a hub? Assuming we go into this sort of 249 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,800 roll up centric app specific world, what do these roll ups 250 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,560 actually want from a hub? And then they sort of rebuild it 251 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,320 from the ground up, thinking about all these things and like 252 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,080 solving kind of all the problems. 253 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,760 And I really I've just I've just rambled for a while. 254 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,920 So maybe he's on. You want to come in and say how 255 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,120 you guys did that or sure. Yeah, I think Jose is right, 256 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,800 right. Like there totally are two ways 257 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,760 that crypto scales right. We, we all know it's either the 258 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,960 fast chain or the app chains and everybody's working on the fast 259 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,520 chain Cam. I don't know what's actually 260 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,040 going to win in the long run, but I can, you know, put my 261 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,160 horse in the race for the app chain thesis because it seems 262 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,920 like it's the natural evolution, right? 263 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,560 It's an application's final destination is what we call 264 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,360 Anisha. And it's because apps will want 265 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,200 to capture their value and potentially make customizations 266 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,600 that lead them to winning one specific vertical because 267 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,600 they've altered something that lets them edge out competition 268 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,960 on that sector. And that's the way we've kind of 269 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,800 seen things play out over time. You know, you have perp Dexes on 270 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,640 every chain, then one actually takes it seriously, builds their 271 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,440 own chain, and they just fucking win, right? 272 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,480 And this is going to happen along other verticals as well. 273 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,440 So I think the option thesis will play out. 274 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,840 Now. It's about how do we make this 275 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,440 very easy? What do teams need? 276 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,280 How do we get more of them to build? 277 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,840 And I think Initia is just designed in the right way to 278 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,600 provide these teams everything they need. 279 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,000 But if you look at some of the other options, they're just 280 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,000 still so infeasible, right? Like building a Cosmos layer 1, 281 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,000 you get the flexibility, but it's still God damn hard. 282 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,200 Building A roll up on Ethereum, very easy, right? 283 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,120 You have so many Ras solutions but you fragment all the 284 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,960 infrastructure because these Ras solutions give you like 10 DA 285 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,520 options and 15 interrupt solutions and all these oracles. 286 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,800 And you need shared standards across a multi chain world for 287 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,280 UX to properly work. And then you have no 288 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,480 customizability like OP Stack, arbitrum, orbit. 289 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,360 These things are great, but you can't like for example reorder 290 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,480 transactions. You can't use a different type 291 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,680 of virtual machine. The choices that do matter for 292 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,280 developers day in and day out are things that you can't edit, 293 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,960 but you get to change the DA layer. 294 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,240 Like those are not what's actually interesting. 295 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,000 So at Initiow, we've kind of combined the best models by 296 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,920 using some of the hindsight in history that we've been through 297 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,520 as builders in Cosmos, as well as big users on Etherium. 298 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,920 Allowing teams to build entire Cosmos SDK chains in whatever VM 299 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,520 they want as roll ups on Initia and have instant access to 300 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,240 basically everything they need from explorers, liquidity, 301 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,359 integrations, rewards. And then ensuring that we have a 302 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,160 very tight hand on what the product UX looks like. 303 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,760 So what does it actually look and feel like for end users 304 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,200 interacting with 15 different roll ups? 305 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,320 And do we control those touch points so that over time we can 306 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,320 get to a world where it feels like 1 and the initiate team can 307 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,120 envision that and build that ourselves? 308 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,400 And then lastly, like how do we ensure that value is retained? 309 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,760 And how do we align kind of all the participants of a world 310 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,400 that's so fragmented in terms of, you know, L twos that care 311 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,880 about themselves and their growth users on the L1 stakers, 312 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,640 like how do we align all these people? 313 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,200 And we've basically built a very robust economic framework that 314 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,440 lets us do that, which is called initial VIP. 315 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,160 And what that does is it essentially just distributes 316 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:13,080 rewards to users that are using applications, simple as that. 317 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,280 And as a layer 2, to get more rewards, you have to build use 318 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:22,080 cases for the native init token and basically care and have a 319 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,800 reason to care about it. And that's either you build a 320 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,800 demand sync or integrate the native token on your chain, or 321 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,280 you try and influence holders on the layer one to vote for you. 322 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,280 And so in this way, we kind of make sure that everybody still 323 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,560 cares about in it. I like to use an example that 324 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,360 initiatives like the federal government and roll up to like 325 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,640 states within the US where everyone has their own 326 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,400 sovereignty, but they still care about the ultimate growth of the 327 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,440 entire country as a whole. And I think having this 328 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,720 Federated stance will allow us to build this app chain future 329 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,800 correctly at 1st, and then in the future we can think about 330 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,280 how to properly decentralize the control of everything. 331 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,960 Yeah. I think, like one of my 332 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,720 favorite, you know, things that you guys have focused on your 333 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,000 approach is, you know, the target customer in the immediate 334 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,840 near term is has been like definitely deaths, right 335 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,920 building, especially with the flexibility that you have, you 336 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,280 know, supporting EVM move VM Wazmi VM desk, can, you know, 337 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,920 build using solidity move web assembly, right, like kind of 338 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,560 anything. But I think what's really cool 339 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,440 about it is I think at the end of the day, the end user is 340 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,280 going to also like reap all these benefits, right? 341 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,560 And kind of curious, like, you know, what loaded kind of get 342 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,480 more into, you know, how the launch went. 343 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,600 You guys just launched recently. What you know, how did it go? 344 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,960 I know you guys launch with, you know, like, I guess like 10, you 345 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,840 know, Manisha's like, you know, curious which ones are you maybe 346 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,600 not most excited about, but which ones are you like most 347 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,480 surprised about coming to market this fast? 348 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,760 And which ones do you think are necessary for like users who are 349 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,120 going to start bridging the initial like how's that 350 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,280 experience and what what can they do right now or in the near 351 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,880 term? You know, launch is never as 352 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,440 smooth as you see, as you think it's going to go. 353 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,080 Everything always has some problems, but I would say things 354 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,360 went relatively smoothly, at least on the L1 side. 355 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,400 I think one of the things we've seen in the past is just when an 356 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,560 air drop happens, chains always break because you have like 357 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,920 hundreds of thousands of users just trying to spam transactions 358 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,840 within the same like 2 seconds. And so we built a really nice 359 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,040 batching system that essentially just batches requests and then 360 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,520 we do 1 transaction that sends like 100 people their air drop 361 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,840 at one time instead of each of those being its own transaction. 362 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,480 And so that really helped make sure that the launch went 363 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,480 smooth. And then in terms of layer twos, 364 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,360 you know, we, we did our best to have all 10 and their front ends 365 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:09,120 live before the public launch. But I think it was actually 366 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,720 around all 10 chains were live, but maybe only around five of 367 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,800 them had their front ends up. But over the weeks since launch, 368 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,400 all of those have come online now. 369 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,120 So we're in a good place and we have, I think, 5 or 6 more roll 370 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,160 ups that will go live over the next month. 371 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,320 So that's pretty exciting. And there's quite a few things 372 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,400 that people have been doing on the chain. 373 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,760 The first and foremost is we have the system called intrine 374 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,040 liquidity. We use our inflation to 375 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,520 basically build a hub of liquidity on the L1 that's 376 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,320 accessible, but you also stake that with validators. 377 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,760 And so I think there is like a $15 million in it USDC pool on 378 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,840 the layer one that has a pretty good APY. 379 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,800 Obviously NFA don't ape into that pool if you don't want to, 380 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,400 but that has been pretty awesome to see just that growing and 381 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,880 people actually using the system. 382 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,800 And then the first VIP distributions happen within the 383 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,440 next three days. I think that is one of the most 384 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,200 exciting things to have been watching because there's a gauge 385 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,600 vote on the underlying layer, one where stakers vote which 386 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,920 roll ups they want to receive rewards through the VIP system. 387 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,440 And watching that evolve has been really interesting. 388 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,480 So right now you basically have people playing some games behind 389 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,200 the scenes with these whales stakers to try and incentivize 390 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,800 them to, you know, vote for their roll up to allocate them 391 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,360 more rewards. And you kind of see a little bit 392 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:47,240 of dominance moving towards like the Defy applications for these 393 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,200 because they obviously are trying to sustain larger amounts 394 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,160 of TDL. But what's interesting still is 395 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,120 that even if you are not a Defy application and you still get 396 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,880 some of the votes here, that is probably hugely advantageous for 397 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,520 you and your users because you're not trying to maintain 398 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,240 204050 million TDL in a lending market. 399 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,000 You're trying to give a little bit of boost for doing actions 400 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,360 in a game, and VIP basically just helps you bootstrap that. 401 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,400 I think one of the things about bribing behind the scenes is 402 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,360 that it's a little bit SUS. If you don't know the right 403 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,480 people, it's going to be hard to get the gauge vote up. 404 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,800 But that is why I'm excited about platforms like Cabal, 405 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,200 which kind of make this transparent. 406 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,200 I think you guys are investors in Cabal, but it basically 407 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:41,200 allows anyone to, you know, provide incentives to voters to 408 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,200 vote for them inside this Gage vote and that'll be good once it 409 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,520 becomes fully transparent. But the the economy has been 410 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,520 pretty exciting. I think like so one of the ones 411 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,280 that I point to is Kamagotchi. They're a fully on chain game, 412 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,160 just probably the most cracked game that I've ever seen get 413 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,200 built. That is all on chain and it 414 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,360 makes perfect sense for them to be their own roll up because 415 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,400 they capture the value from their sequencer. 416 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,000 I think in the past four days alone, their sequencer is minted 417 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,240 like 15K worth just off of transaction fees. 418 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,680 And like that's, that's already a very awesome sign, right? 419 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,320 There are paths to being profitable as a roll up because 420 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,880 you aren't distributing these fees back to a set of 421 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,120 validators. You're just keeping these 422 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,080 rewards and you know, 15K in four days is like probably 423 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,080 enough to sustain your runway for a small team of people. 424 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,160 And it only increases as your game becomes more exciting or 425 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,240 you get more users. So that's pretty cool to see. 426 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,800 And then they also held a public sale. 427 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,080 Their token is backed by baseline. 428 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,480 I think they raised over like 2 or 3 million in that public 429 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,440 sale, all on chain. That's pretty awesome for a 430 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,280 young healthy economy. And then a couple of other cool 431 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,320 projects that you might want to look at are Echelon and Inertia. 432 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,960 They're basically just lending markets, but Echelon has I think 433 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,400 maybe like 300 mil TBL across Aptos. 434 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,560 And now on Initia, they have an early lending market for in it 435 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,760 USDC, Tia, some of these other assets. 436 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,080 Yeah, it's, I mean, what have you guys been seeing? 437 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,520 Have you tried any of these roll ups yet? 438 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,360 Not yet, Maybe just liquidity providing on one O 1. 439 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,360 Thank you. Honest work. 440 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,600 Yes, Sir. I've seen some of these NFTS 441 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,840 going. Crazy too. 442 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,520 Yeah, the Stargaze team, they deployed A roll up called 443 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,160 Intergaze, which is basically just Stargaze but as a roll up, 444 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,720 which is pretty cool because they are definitely one of the 445 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:02,560 last remaining builder teams in Cosmos and they have just been 446 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,880 launching a few collections like Twosies, Raccoons, Enyas. 447 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,720 Those have been fun. Yeah. 448 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,760 I mean regarding the launch, right, maybe one thing briefly 449 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,600 to mention, since we have this group together, I mean we of 450 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,440 course one, right. We've been working with Inisha 451 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,160 for a while and and now worked also with Delphi, right to 452 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,040 launch the first Delphi validator. 453 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,520 So maybe a Neil like. What was the thinking for you 454 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,600 behind behind doing a validator for initia? 455 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,640 Yeah, to be honest, Brian's been annoying me for a while to do, 456 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,640 you know, to have Delph. I do it. 457 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,120 It's first validator on, you know, some chains, right? 458 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,240 And to be honest, one thing that we always discussed internally 459 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,480 was like, we wanted to make sure, you know, we, we feel like 460 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720 it's kind of like a, a big responsibility of us, like, you 461 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,400 know, tying our brand or kind of like using our brand to kind of 462 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,040 hike have this vote in confidence. 463 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,160 So we honestly didn't really think about it till, you know, 464 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,040 we really started getting excited about the initial 465 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,440 launch. And, you know, I think we kind 466 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,680 of chatted with Brian and said, Hey, is this possible? 467 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,840 And, you know, didn't even realize how closely you guys 468 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,080 were working together. I think it made a lot of sense. 469 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,600 I think our team's super excited about that. 470 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,520 It's, it's gone like, you know, really well since we first 471 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,240 started. It's like a whole different 472 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,720 validated business that we've launched. 473 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,920 So, you know, maybe we'll do more, but I think for now, we're 474 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,320 we're pretty excited to, you know, see how this one goes. 475 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,520 And to be honest, I think Delphi as a whole, the way that we kind 476 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,480 of have like operated and learned in the space is like, 477 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,840 you know, rolling our sleeves up and getting our hands dirty. 478 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,040 And I think the validator side of crypto has been some, you 479 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,800 know, side of business that, you know, obviously with people like 480 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,880 Brian and our network, we've been able to learn a lot from 481 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,200 that. I think like actually getting 482 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,360 our hands dirty and getting involved helps us just 483 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:48,440 understand it way better. And I think initial was a change 484 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,720 that we wanted to kind of support and kind of get like as 485 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:57,640 close to as possible. Yeah, let's talk about the the 486 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,920 whole economic model because that feels like one of the most 487 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,560 interesting parts. I mean, I think we on on a high 488 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,960 level, right, like proof of stake chains have basically so 489 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,520 far right used their native inflation to incentivize people 490 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,560 to stake and, you know, secure the chain. 491 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,360 And you know, that makes sense, right. 492 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,320 But of course, if you think of like the success of a chain, 493 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,160 people just staking and securing it like it's not enough. 494 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,520 And, and especially, you know, liquidity is such a crucial 495 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,360 thing and you know, we've seen Bear Chain do something very 496 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:39,560 interesting there with proof of liquidity, which is, you know, 497 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,760 we, we'll see how it works in the long run. 498 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,440 But it's definitely, I mean, for us as a, as a validator, it's 499 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,840 been, you know, very challenging, but very 500 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,400 interesting, right, To like really understand how to 501 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,000 optimize this and how to generate higher rewards. 502 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:59,160 Now you guys have done this like enshrined liquidity. 503 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,960 How how have you thought about designing this? 504 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,080 And maybe also in reference to the Bear Chain model like. 505 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,760 Where do you want to differ here in terms of how it works? 506 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,160 Yeah, I think the the justification here is, you know, 507 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,920 chains are interesting because of their apps. 508 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,960 That's why users come and use them. 509 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,360 So what can we do to ensure and help apps win? 510 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,560 And what else does an ecosystem need, right? 511 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,600 Where should inflation really be going in a network? 512 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,360 And it's not to staking. Why is that? 513 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,400 Well, if you're staking inflation and your security 514 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,440 budget is the vast majority of your inflation and like one of 515 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,840 the highest rewarding things to do, you're directly 516 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,680 cannibalizing your own ecosystem. 517 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:54,840 If I'm getting, you know, 1020% stake tokens with the L1, which 518 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,920 is probably like the most secure and safe thing I can do with my 519 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,920 tokens, and a lending market is paying 6%, I'm never going to go 520 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,560 lend my tokens there because I'm just going to stake them. 521 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:12,360 And so I think using that security budget and inflation in 522 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,200 a way that actually adds value is hugely advantageous and 523 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,000 probably the way that most new chains are going to move towards 524 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,320 in the future. You can get to a level of 525 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,400 security that is safe enough by using tokens that would 526 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,360 otherwise not be able to be used. 527 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,240 So for example, in our case, we allow investors to stake their 528 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680 tokens for around the base inflation rate, which is around 529 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,080 2 to 3% APY, so relatively low. The rewards are locked and 530 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,000 vested over the same four year vesting schedule, so you know 531 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,320 you're not going to be cheated on. 532 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:57,600 And now we have built up layer of security and economic stake 533 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,720 that is enough that we need. So instead of using 40% of the 534 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,360 supplier to pay the stakers, let's use it to do something 535 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,480 meaningful. And we basically do two things. 536 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,160 One is intra and liquidity and the other is VIP. 537 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,880 So intra and liquidity is built basically just to incentivize 538 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,040 the initial L1 to be a liquidity hub for all of the roll ups on 539 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,960 Initia. You know these, one of the 540 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,200 interesting things about Initia is that no team is building a 541 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,120 general purpose layer 2, right? We think that is like a losing 542 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,560 fight. Every layer 2 on Ethereum is a 543 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,040 general purpose layer 2. And the difference between them 544 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,280 is the color of their apps or their branding. 545 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,680 Really just not interesting. We won't be able to build app 546 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,000 chains. Focus on one thing, go try and 547 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,960 win on that vertical. And because of that, you're 548 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,480 probably not building a DEX on your chain, or you're probably 549 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,640 not trying to build liquidity on your chain or you don't want to 550 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,840 do that. And so the initial layer one 551 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,520 acts as the base hub of liquidity for everyone. 552 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,600 And so we repurpose a lot of the inflation for 25% of the entire 553 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,560 supply for staking basically LP tokens with validators. 554 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,160 This allows us to just build a hub of liquidity for major 555 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,760 assets. And because of how interwoven 556 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,440 roll ups work, it's all accessible from L twos. 557 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,920 So right now it's just in AUSDC. We might add other pairs soon, 558 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,520 probably in it SUSDE from Athena. 559 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,120 And then if there is enough demand for assets like ether 560 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240 BTC, we'll build like for that as well using the same 561 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,520 inflation. And the second part of 562 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,280 inflation, another 25% of the supply is basically to VIP and 563 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,480 this is allocated to users of Layer 2 applications. 564 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,600 As mentioned earlier, layer twos get rewards based on how much in 565 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,720 it they have plus a gauge vote on the layer one. 566 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,200 And then on each of these layer twos, the teams set metrics on 567 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,280 chain on what users should be doing to receive these rewards. 568 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:11,080 So if I'm Echelon, for example, I need to lend in IT and lend 569 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,600 USTC. And for that reasons, those on 570 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,240 chain metrics count for my VIP scoring and I'll get in it 571 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,520 rewards based on that. And these rewards aren't just 572 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,040 distributed upfront and they're vested as escrowed in it. 573 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,520 And basically the way to unlock these rewards is by maintaining 574 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,520 your engagement over time. So it's essentially A 575 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,520 programmatic air drop system where every two weeks users are 576 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,880 being air dropped rewards and they have to keep using these 577 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,760 chains to unlock these rewards. And this is a vested interest 578 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,640 program that's happening on the L1 or it's happening on the L 579 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,600 twos. So it's based on the L2 580 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,240 activity, but you get these rewards on the L1 directly to a 581 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,720 user. So, you know, it can't be a team 582 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,880 can't just give it all to themselves and then take some of 583 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,720 that. They can set an operator 584 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,400 Commission just like a validator. 585 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,239 Yeah, I think the the launch has been pretty cool. 586 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,520 You know, we have probably around these 10 roll ups around 587 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,159 30 to 40 million TBL and all of that is natural. 588 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,760 I think one of the things I've seen from a lot of chain 589 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,520 launches this past cycle is TBL deals before launch. 590 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,159 So that right when you launch the chain you basically have 591 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:38,400 like a few 100 million or even billions of dollars of TBL. 592 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,239 But this is an incredible waste of money almost always, right? 593 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,199 The vast majority of this TVL has no mandate. 594 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,360 So it's just sitting on the chain. 595 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,000 Or it's in a form that is entirely useless, right? 596 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,120 Like not to throw ether Fi under the bus. 597 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,080 Amazing team. We have weeth on the initial 598 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,480 one. But like a weeth ETH pair is 599 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,280 probably not going to do much for advancing your economy on 600 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,160 chain, but maybe a stable pair with a native token or, you 601 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,040 know, in an ETH USDC pair might. And so a lot of the liquidity is 602 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,600 basically just a way to show on Defy Llama that you have larger 603 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,520 numbers and you pay for that in tokens that were usually at some 604 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,680 sort of seed valuation rather than the currently trading 605 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,760 price. And these tokens are kind of 606 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,800 phantom tokens. Props to teams like Bear Chain 607 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,960 which did this at least publicly so everyone knew how much 608 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,120 rewards were being admitted for these pre TBL farms. 609 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,320 But there's other teams that essentially just promise 610 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,720 investors lock tokens at a discount to bring TBL on the 611 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:56,840 chain and these tokens just will suddenly appear in the 612 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,640 circulating supply because they actually came from something 613 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,960 like the foundation. And I think that's a pretty 614 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,120 unhealthy habit that the industry has gotten into, and 615 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,200 I'm hoping that we can do things a bit more cleanly going forward 616 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,400 with Initia. Yeah, that's a big thing you 617 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,040 guys have done. I think done things the clean 618 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,040 way at every turn, like whether going out to community round at 619 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,440 the same like lower round actually than the than the last 620 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,880 BBC round, the way you've launched the float, being 621 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,640 transparent about it and stuff launching at a lower valuation. 622 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,240 I think all these things, you guys have done things the right 623 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:38,480 way. Let's see if it pays off. 624 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,240 Hope it pays off. I think like one thing I, we 625 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,680 kind of spoke about this a lot leading up and we're when we're 626 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,400 advising teams on this is that like there's a reason everyone 627 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,560 does things the wrong way, right or like the the wrong way. 628 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,160 Like there are a lot of benefits to launch and get a higher 629 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,360 valuation with a scammy float. Like all, all the stuff that you 630 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,280 see, I think I guess most egregiously in like the movement 631 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,320 type situations, there are like benefits to doing that. 632 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,320 And I, I hope that like I think initials, probably the the 633 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,360 highest quality project that's done things the, the right way. 634 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,920 There are a few others, but you know, I'm and I'm hoping it can 635 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,720 like start a trend because yeah, it's, it's, it's cool to see. 636 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:23,840 Yeah. I mean, I think there's, this is 637 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,680 definitely sort of ties into what this a little bit of a 638 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,120 crisis in the industry. I would say at this point, 639 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,720 right, where we have all the seasoning tokens launching and 640 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:41,960 people trying to manipulate the price, the FTV, the TBL and you 641 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,880 know, it works until it doesn't work. 642 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,360 And, and then I think we have seen now the, the, that just 643 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,200 retail, I think it, it worked in the past, right? 644 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,840 Because, Oh, it looks great. And then retail users would buy 645 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,480 it and it will kind of sort of sustain. 646 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,680 And maybe you could sort of fake it till you make it type thing. 647 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,880 But then I think users have woken up to that, right? 648 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,800 And they're like, well, these, these things are like down only 649 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,680 and like, I'm not going to buy it, right? 650 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,760 And so we see basically almost all the new launches struggling, 651 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,840 right? And, and, and just going down 652 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,480 and, and not being able to sustain it and everyone worried 653 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,200 about the unlocks that are coming. 654 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,200 So I think different ways are needed. 655 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,120 So it's very cool that you guys are going that direction. 656 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,680 Yeah. I think what matters is just how 657 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,520 long do you expect to be working on this project and what is your 658 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,640 time horizon. The incentives are just totally 659 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:45,120 not set up for you to be a long termist in crypto and by no 660 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,640 means possible, right? And no, I just think that 661 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,520 initially can be huge. I love my team. 662 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,480 I love the people that we're working with, and I hope to be 663 00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,880 working on this for years to come. 664 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,920 And so if you have that mindset, I think, you know, starting some 665 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,120 are reasonable and growing with your ecosystem and with the 666 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,480 project only makes sense. But we'll see what happens, 667 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,720 yeah. Yeah, I I think like even even 668 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,600 the most long term teams and that we work with on the venture 669 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,120 side or even the consulting side of Delphi, like, you know, once 670 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,920 you have a token live because of the short attention span that, 671 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,520 you know, the community and like a lot of, you know, people just 672 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,760 within crypto has there's just so much pressure. 673 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,120 I I think like we really loved how long term you and Stan have 674 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,440 been thinking about initial and like, you know, just the amount 675 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,000 of time you put into even the launch. 676 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,640 Like I'm curious, you know, one year after main that like what's 677 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,920 like a single stat that will tell you and this just like 678 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,120 working or not like what like for you guys, like what are you 679 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,920 guys thinking about, you know, long term, obviously not, you 680 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,720 know, price or anything like that, but I'm curious what you 681 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:58,680 think about. Yeah, I think number of roll ups 682 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,800 is a great thing, but I think it's very easy to be number of 683 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,040 roll ups doesn't actually matter. 684 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,080 What matters is probably more so like. 685 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,080 There's a well known ecosystem with over 100 roll ups. 686 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,920 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think all that really matters 687 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,240 is a few applications. So rather it should be metrics 688 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,120 like revenue generated by roll ups, right? 689 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,920 Stuff like the fees that are actually generated. 690 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,720 Are these teams making money? Like how profitable are these 691 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:34,960 roll ups users that are cross pollinating? 692 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,960 That'll really show if you know this interwoven thesis is 693 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,240 working out where you have all these app chains that users can 694 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:47,720 move between very easily. And then probably TBL is just a 695 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,440 standard metric to to look at across the roll ups. 696 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:54,880 But I think the biggest 1 is really just revenue. 697 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,560 One question I have it, it feels like Initia and the app chain 698 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,920 thesis generally is like a bet on crypto innovation, right? 699 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,560 That that hasn't happened yet because I don't know if you 700 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,200 agree with this, but to some extent, like if sort of Anatoly 701 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,400 and some of the Solana people are right that the only use 702 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,920 cases are minting and trading tokens, then then I think Solana 703 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,160 or something like it is is probably the right design, 704 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,400 right? Like a a monolith with with 705 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,840 shared state, like all the deep applications, shared state and 706 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,600 stuff is probably the right design. 707 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,160 So I think to to to believe in the app chain thesis and an 708 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,280 initiate you, you sort of have to be bullish long term like 709 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,000 crypto innovation. And I'm curious how yeah, how 710 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,920 you feel about that. And also also the other two like 711 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:43,640 yeah, how do you guys feel about that? 712 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,200 Are there are you bullish at this point or and are like what 713 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,080 applications like pockets are you most interested in and 714 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,920 especially for you and Anisha Zun? 715 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,880 Yeah, I think you're right. It really just depends on like, 716 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,920 how hard are people going to start tinkering? 717 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,080 Are we going to start getting some interesting experiments? 718 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,960 I've been thinking about it like when a new PlayStation comes 719 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,880 out, you know, you get some of the same games that you had 720 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,680 before, but then a few years down the line, people start 721 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,960 taking advantage of all the specs of the PS5 and you get the 722 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,440 fucking most awesome games possible like Elden Ring. 723 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,440 And so I'm thinking that's, you know, it's a similar bet here 724 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,720 with the app chain thesis, right? 725 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,400 That now that it's actually easy to do this, teams will spend a 726 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,080 bit more time and want to control their stack and we'll 727 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,640 build something super interesting. 728 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,280 The problem is what is going to be built and the spectrum is so 729 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,040 huge in the the design space. And I think the Initiate team 730 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,440 itself has a range of ideas that we want to experiment with, but 731 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,760 it's hard to say exactly what will be done. 732 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,880 And what I think is also interesting is these new virtual 733 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,760 machines that are opening up the design space too. 734 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,280 Like Move has only been around for so long, but it is a 735 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,680 phenomenal language to work with. 736 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,520 But I think the viewpoint that new virtual machines will unlock 737 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:20,440 net new applications is totally wrong because based on examples, 738 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,440 we haven't seen any net new applications on after Sir Sui. 739 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,160 We just see the same things written in Move. 740 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000 And I think that's just about express expressivity as a 741 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,040 developer. And so I am bullish on 742 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,120 experimentation, but I totally think that it takes time for 743 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,000 those experiments to play out. What about you? 744 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,760 You guys curious? Yeah. 745 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:52,160 I mean, I do think there's strong evidence that, you know, 746 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,440 defy or financial use cases is, is just is the thing that like 747 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,560 block chains are incredibly powerful for. 748 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,120 And I think that's also where sort of the the blockchain 749 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,640 advantage really comes in, right? 750 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,880 Because the composability in Difi is just amazing, right? 751 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,600 You can like do something and then it leverages this protocol 752 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,480 and then use a token, some other protocol and maybe borrow 753 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,080 against it and do something again. 754 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,000 So I think if you compare like the traditional financial system 755 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,920 and the on chain system, then I think that kind of composability 756 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,160 and and define innovation there does feel like really the unique 757 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,640 superpower. Now, of course, I think what it 758 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,560 does open up is now you can maybe financialize and 759 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,560 incentivize like a much wider range of stuff than you can in 760 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,520 the traditional world. Like you can start having maybe, 761 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,360 you know, social networks that have some kind of incentive 762 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,600 component or games or now. Yeah. 763 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,480 I, I mean, I think social networks to me has been one of 764 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,440 the things where, you know, even from the very beginning, I felt 765 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,160 like if you look at something like Facebook, right, Facebook 766 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,840 managed to get this enormous scale, but you know, the users 767 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,640 who, you know, the power users who really like helped make it a 768 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,560 success. They didn't benefit from the 769 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,640 success. So I, I've always felt that like 770 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,880 if you could build something like a social network type thing 771 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,640 where you have much more of an incentive alignment and the 772 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,800 people actually driving it forward can benefit and you have 773 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,200 sort of markets that actually work. 774 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,160 You know, that could be like extremely powerful. 775 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,320 I don't think we've seen that yet, right? 776 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,800 I mean, you had some, some brief spikes with like friends tech 777 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,640 and, but like, you know, it didn't really make sense. 778 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,800 They weren't well designed. So I think that is one one 779 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,560 example where as a category I feel, you know, very bullish on 780 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,400 in the longer term gaming, I don't know as much about. 781 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,720 So I but I I could see see that also being 10. 782 00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:57,880 Yeah. What do you think, Anil? 783 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,080 Yeah, I think, you know, obviously within Delphi, we 784 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,480 talked about this question a lot. 785 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,520 And I think like when it comes to app chains, we've, you know, 786 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,800 to to your guys point, I think we've really seen specifically 787 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,920 not just D5 but like perp Dex's kind of be like the biggest 788 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,960 winners and it's like option pieces, whether it's DYDX, hyper 789 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,200 liquid, etcetera. I think more broadly though, you 790 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,240 know, the way that I see crypto, I've I've said this a bunch, 791 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,160 it's just like like humans, like most powerful human coordination 792 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,000 tool, right. And I think that actually 793 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,400 becomes more and more useful with kind of like all this 794 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,400 abundance that's created with things like AI going forward. 795 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,320 So yeah, I I'm still very bullish on a lot of these use 796 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,360 cases that we have been investing over the years, even 797 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,800 though, you know, something like gaming, obviously we were, you 798 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,720 know, big investors and big proponents of like AXI and, you 799 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:45,840 know, Alluvium and stuff way back in the day. 800 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,080 I do think games have like this big potential of being this 801 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,040 like, you know, every, I think year in crypto, you always, you 802 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,680 know, are hoping for, you know, 1-2 or three like big, you know, 803 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,400 mainstream applications that kind of like not just, you know, 804 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,440 show off the power of this technology, but also on board a 805 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,120 lot of the masses that maybe aren't in crypto yet. 806 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,920 And I think games are still like a bet that our team still it, 807 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,040 it's very hard to make that bet 'cause I think a lot of them 808 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,360 won't work out right. But I think we've invested in a 809 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,240 lot of like really strong teams that are to think about this and 810 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,800 like the right way. And you know, we're all 811 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,800 obviously hopeful that like one of those works out. 812 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,920 I think when it comes to like, you know, D5 and it's place in 813 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,800 crypto, like I think I go back and forth on this honestly, I 814 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,200 think like when I first got into crypto, I was super excited 815 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,960 about D5 for sure. But I still thought that like 816 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,120 there was this huge potential for, you know, a majority of 817 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,400 like long tail use cases. I mean, D5 would not be like the 818 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,160 biggest portion of this. And I think over time, I've kind 819 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,240 of come to realize that D5 is kind of like the backbone of all 820 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,440 these other use cases anyway. And what percent is that? 821 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,840 Is that like 5060% of what crypto will actually like enable 822 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,000 is like 8090% is the thing I kind of go back and forth on. 823 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,120 And I think like is like the question of like, you know, us 824 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,800 doing research, us building, us investing to, you know, figure 825 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,240 that out. I think the next big boom for 826 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:18,200 applications will be once ZKTLS is like here and ready, right? 827 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,680 That's you can just bring anything from anywhere on chain 828 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,160 and create primitives for it. And that just widens the scope 829 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,120 of what we can bring on chain by like, you know, trillions, 830 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,680 right? Right now, it's actually still 831 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,000 pretty hard to bring new assets on chain, whether those are like 832 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,840 RW as and no one cares about like a wine bottle. 833 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,800 But once you have like the ability to bring someone's 834 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,440 gaming data on chain or like their scores and stuff or their 835 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,560 medical records, these are all things that ZKTLS just like 836 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,480 enables a lot quicker. And I think that's when you have 837 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:03,000 the next boom of crypto and I'm pretty excited for that. 838 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,120 So, so just CKTLS basically means, right, like you, you have 839 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,440 some sort of VEP session and then you can verify the results 840 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,040 from that, write it back on chain. 841 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,800 So let's say if I the medical record thing, I log into my I 842 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:24,120 don't know, medical website and then you can verify some data 843 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:29,480 that it shows there leveraging SSL, right? 844 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,800 And then and then you can verify it on chain. 845 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,160 Yeah. So I think like, you know, ideas 846 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,680 like medical records on chain have been always one of the 847 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,160 things that people have said block chain is great for. 848 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,520 And it theoretically it makes sense. 849 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,760 We've just never gotten that, which is kind of crazy and like 850 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,440 no one has done it. Well, yeah. 851 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,440 And so maybe ZKTLS will make that easier, but you know, I'm 852 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,040 just looking for more fun things to do on chain. 853 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,480 And I think, you know, like allowing people to bring their, 854 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,200 you know, World of Warcraft or their league data on chain and 855 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,560 start trading stuff for the ways that we can start to stack 856 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,560 financial primitives here. And maybe I'm lending against 857 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:17,960 some of my skins or who knows what can be created, but the the 858 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,360 design space just becomes so much bigger. 859 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,760 My kind of take although is, is that basically crypto is in the 860 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,800 through of disillusionment stage. 861 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,400 And like, I don't know, I've been speaking to a lot of teams 862 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,480 recently that have sort of like been building for a few years 863 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,200 and are now seeing like big optics. 864 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:43,040 And, and this is everywhere from like sort of world coin to like 865 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,960 stuff in the energy space, like the decentralizing grid stuff 866 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,360 that we've talked about for years. 867 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,160 Like all these things have been building in the background for 868 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,840 like sometimes 7-8 years and are really starting to see like 869 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,080 optics. And I, I think eventually almost 870 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,800 all the things that people imagined in 2017 will end up 871 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,840 happening. It'll just take much longer than 872 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,720 everyone expected. Kind of like how it happened 873 00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:08,320 with the Internet, right? Like all the most ridiculous, 874 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,880 like laughed at ideas that people had in the in the late 875 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,560 90s ended up happening. They just happened like way 876 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,440 later. So yeah, I don't know, I think 877 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,240 the same thing is going to probably end up happening in 878 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:24,280 crypto. It's just tough because at the 879 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:29,040 same time there's a lot of very overvalued like vaporware 880 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,440 because of just the nature of public mark, like giving public 881 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,160 market liquidity to early stage things. 882 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,360 And so you have like these these like 2 forces happening at the 883 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,440 same time. Yeah, but but I'm, I'm pretty 884 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,400 bullish on a lot of these different applications like 885 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,800 coming to market. And I do think it's kind of a no 886 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,040 brainer to me that like every, pretty much every asset will, 887 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,840 will end up on chain. Like you're already seeing it. 888 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,920 And like stablecoins, anyone who's ever owned a stablecoin 889 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,800 for, for a sufficient amount of time just knows it's like you'd 890 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,160 rather have that than a Fiat dollar in a bank account. 891 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,960 It's, it's just better in, in every way, right? 892 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,360 You don't have like a bunk bank like cucking you every time you 893 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,920 want to make a transaction or asking you to go into the asking 894 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:17,320 you to go into branch. Like, yeah, it's, it's seamless, 895 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,680 like interoperability with any, anything you want to do with it. 896 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,960 So I just think that's going to be the case for like every asset 897 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:24,320 and you're seeing it with stocks. 898 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,000 I think Super State just announced today they're like 899 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,000 bringing stocks on chain, you know, a few people working on 900 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,520 that too. Yeah, I, I, I'm pretty like, 901 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,480 yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure on that one. 902 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:37,960 And that's just like the defy use case. 903 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,640 Like I'm, I, I sort of think there's no way to, to put the 904 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,480 cat back in the in the cat back in the bottle. 905 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,520 Doesn't sound right. Genie back in the bottle. 906 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,000 Yeah. Don't know why you'd put a cat 907 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,040 in a bottle, really. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's 908 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,560 going to. I think it's going to happen. 909 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,600 I, I, I think this goes back to like what we were saying earlier 910 00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,080 about like patients, like, I think the crypto industry has 911 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,760 this kind of like mental illness of just like wanting everything 912 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,760 to be done like ASAP And now. And I think like one thing I 913 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,200 always think about is taking a step back and thinking about how 914 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,680 far we've come even since like when we've got into crypto. 915 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,640 I think, you know, a lot of like the successes and headlines that 916 00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,080 you're seeing week by week right now or would be things that like 917 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,840 you'd be in disbelief in that, that we would even have the 918 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,520 opportunity to see even like 6-7, eight years ago. 919 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,080 So, yeah, I think like to your point and and to Zon's point, as 920 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,040 you bring all these assets on chain, I think another cool part 921 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,640 is like all this, you know, experimentation, all these maybe 922 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,840 dumb games that people view as like not value productive at all 923 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,120 have actually been, you know, making the end for more robust, 924 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,640 have made like a lot of these mechanisms, design decisions 925 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,360 like way clearer. So when these assets do get on 926 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,160 chain, we have like we're not starting from zero and have to 927 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,720 go and work through all those things while we've, you know, 928 00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:58,840 bring these assets on chain. So yeah, I mean, I'm super 929 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:00,680 excited about that. I think like, you know, one 930 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,240 thing I've learned, you know, building Delphi at at large is 931 00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:05,000 just that like, you just got to be patient. 932 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,440 This stuff doesn't happen overnight. 933 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,000 But you know, if you take a step back, like progress is being 934 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,000 made. I wanted to ask about one thing 935 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,520 that maybe goes a little bit more technical regarding 936 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,520 initial. So if you think of the app 937 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,800 chain, I mean, one of the big struggles with if if you look at 938 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,520 Cosmos, but if you look at app chains more generally has been, 939 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,240 you know, the the fragmentation of user experience and the 940 00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,480 challenge with liquidity as well, right? 941 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,280 So you'd have basically the nice thing in Solana or here you 942 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,600 might, you have all of this liquidity, everything is there. 943 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,680 Now you have different chains, it gets fragmented out. 944 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:52,360 You know you guys are addressing that, but like how exactly are 945 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:57,160 you guys solving that problem? So assets are all issued on the 946 00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,600 initial layer one or the vast majority of them. 947 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,560 And then to and from roll ups. There's essentially two ways to 948 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,400 bridge, but to simplify things, let's just say they they all use 949 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:13,120 IBC. And so if you have USDC on one 950 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:18,000 roll up and you want to send it to another roll up, those tokens 951 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,320 transfer through the layer one because IBC has pairwise 952 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,080 dependencies. If I went from roll up A to roll 953 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:29,640 up B directly, I'd get USDC 1. And if I went through the layer 954 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,560 one from roll up A to initial layer one to roll up BI, get 955 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,120 USDC 2. And So what we do is we 956 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,440 essentially route all transfers through the initial layer one 957 00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:45,320 and access this hub because that's where all the liquidity 958 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,360 is. And because of that, you can 959 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:52,720 have fungibility of these assets where if I'm sending USDC from 960 00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:55,240 one roll up to another, I'm going to get the same version 961 00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:00,120 and we're not going to get any new token standards essentially. 962 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,960 That's just the key way that we avoid liquidity fragmentation. 963 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:07,640 Cosmos was created as as kind of a web design, but really it 964 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,240 should have been more of a hub and spoke. 965 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,880 And so we just said let's hub and spoke this thing. 966 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,920 That that was kind of like the original actually even design an 967 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,400 idea around the Cosmos Hub was that you would have this kind of 968 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:25,320 hub and spoke IBC routing thing. And then I think it was just a 969 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,960 sort of to some extent it was a, you know, failure of execution, 970 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,520 right? That that didn't happen and that 971 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,920 you ended up having more of these like pairwise IBC thing 972 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,920 and then that you know, didn't end up. 973 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,840 Everything was a bit too permissionless. 974 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,200 Yeah, you got to start off a little bit permissioned, you 975 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,320 know, bring the thing into the world the way you want it to be 976 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,840 brought in, grow it a bit, and then you can start to give it 977 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,640 the reins. It's like having a child. 978 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,160 So it's kind of it's kind of a theorem probably is maybe trying 979 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,080 to go towards as well ways in in their way slow methodical 980 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,760 research you way. The nice thing is you have 981 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,120 everyone using the same standard, right, Whether that's 982 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,120 to get into Initia, you use layer zero and then around 983 00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,880 Initia use IBC. All the standards are the same. 984 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,080 And that means we're going to have consistency of assets, but 985 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,600 we're also going to have consistency when it comes to 986 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,000 trust assumptions. So as an asset issuer, if you 987 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,400 trust one roll up, you're going to be able to trust the other 988 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,840 roll up in the same way. You're not going to have to look 989 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,600 into the details and see like, how is this roll up run? 990 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,760 What's its sequencer set up? Do I trust this bridging or not? 991 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,960 Because they're all going to be the same. 992 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,680 And those are going to be enshrined at the L1 level. 993 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,360 And once you have this consistency of shared standards, 994 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,280 we can start to build a lot of better UX experiences over all 995 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,640 of this. I think the UX that we have 996 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,280 right now is not bad, but there's definitely a lot of work 997 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,600 to be done. We're currently going to do a 998 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,440 full redesign of the initial app. 999 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,760 The initial bridge page is going through a change. 1000 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,400 We're going to change a bit of the way that you connect to 1001 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,760 wallets. It's already nice that you can 1002 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,160 use EVM wallets on any virtual machine chain. 1003 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,600 I think that's just the biggest blocker for getting anyone into 1004 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,520 Cosmos is they have to download a Cosmos wallet. 1005 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,120 So I'm never going to switch from my Rabi wallet. 1006 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,160 And so I need to ensure that would work on Initia as well. 1007 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,000 And so slowly we'll, we'll make this user experience better. 1008 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:38,280 We have the assets all nice and unfragmented and the economy is 1009 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,560 just getting started and I'm excited for where it goes so. 1010 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:48,240 Maybe final topic with Delphi, you guys are investors in Asia 1011 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:49,640 right now. You guys were on the validate 1012 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,040 initial, you invested in a bunch of initial projects. 1013 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,120 I think you guys have, you know, you guys have done some research 1014 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,920 reports right on initial, so a lot of involvement already. 1015 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,440 I don't know is there anything on the lab side you guys are 1016 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:12,840 also doing with initial? Not right now, probably a bit 1017 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,400 early for that. We could maybe, maybe, maybe do 1018 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,040 something in the future. But yeah, not right now on the 1019 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:18,800 lab side. But yeah, as you said, pretty 1020 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,120 active on the ventures and and research side. 1021 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:23,920 Yeah. So people should definitely 1022 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,640 check out that research report. I think if people want to go 1023 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,960 deep on initial and that's probably the best place to go. 1024 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,400 Yeah, I think we'll make it public actually for this pod. 1025 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,960 So we'll drop it, jump in the show notes and everything like 1026 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,800 that. Cool. 1027 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,960 So Zon maybe to to end off what's what does the road map 1028 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,160 look like? So if you think of like the next 1029 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,280 two years, what are the most? Important. 1030 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,960 I can tell you the next two years, but I can probably tell 1031 00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:52,720 you the next six months at least. 1032 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,200 OK, let's see the next 6. Months, next six months is 1033 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,400 getting more roll ups that we are already working with live 1034 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:04,320 and out to mainnet adding more assets to intran liquidity. 1035 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,400 Revamping the initial app bridge and wallet widget to have a 1036 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,960 better UX and then probably tweaking initial VIP. 1037 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,800 So VIP is great in the way it is right now, but it only allocates 1038 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,360 rewards based on the gauge vote and the balance pool. 1039 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,960 And I think more interesting ways to allocate these rewards 1040 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,240 will show up over time. And so we want to make sure that 1041 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,640 we're consistently evaluating and adjusting our economic 1042 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,040 models. I think people usually don't 1043 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,560 change the parameters of their chain after it's live, but these 1044 01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,160 are totally things that you should tweak. 1045 01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,120 It's basically like changing, you know, the Fed rates, whether 1046 01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,360 you want savings or people spending. 1047 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,600 And so we're going to continue to adjust these things and 1048 01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,560 that's probably what the next six months looks like. 1049 01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,360 Awesome. And then like what about, you 1050 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,560 know, devs and users, like what actions should they they be 1051 01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,400 taking if devs want to build on Initia, like what's the process 1052 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,520 of that? And then, you know, if users 1053 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,120 want to get set up and everything like that, what's the 1054 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,480 process for that? If you are a user looking to get 1055 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,720 in, go to initia dot XYZ slash on boarding. 1056 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,560 There's a whole flow there for connecting your wallet, bridging 1057 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:24,000 in funds, seeing what apps you can play with, just getting in 1058 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:28,240 there. If you are a developer, docs dot 1059 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,200 initial dot XYZ that's your place to go or my DMS. 1060 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,440 If you want to yap. You can hit me up at at It's 1061 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,600 always on E on Telegram or Twitter if you have an 1062 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,680 interesting idea. Always love to chat. 1063 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:44,520 Cool. Well, thanks so much Sam for 1064 01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,360 coming on and thanks so much Aneem and Jose for, you know, 1065 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,080 doing this episode together. It was really fun and I'm super 1066 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:54,320 excited how this initial is going to play out and what 1067 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,480 what's the impact going to be for, you know, sort of the 1068 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,160 larger weight of how people build in crypto. 1069 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:01,960 Definitely, yeah. I appreciate you guys. 1070 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,880 There's nice to be on. Yeah, yeah. 1071 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,440 Thanks very much. Thank you Amigos.