1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360 We identified the parts that a lot of protocols, a lot of 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,600 networks are starting centralized because 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,520 decentralization journey is so hard and it's so unoptimized or 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,640 start with the really software validator set and software for 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,400 that. If you have like a million 6 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,280 nodes, it's suboptimal. Decentralization is something 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,840 that really expensive for people to maintain. 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,240 It's really hard to operate. Our basic job was to create an 9 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,160 alignment of incentives for new protocols, so they when they 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,080 decide to launch centralized or with proof of authority or 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720 whitelisting of operators, they decide on full-fledged 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,600 decentralization immediately. Welcome to App Center, the show 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,600 which talks about the technologies, projects and 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,480 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 15 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,640 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Misha who is the 16 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:53,720 Co founder and CEO of Symbiotic. Symbiotic is a re staking 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:58,360 staking protocol and yeah, it's a very interesting new paradigm. 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,280 So I'm excited to speak with Misha about that. 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,239 But just before we get into that, really briefly like to 20 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:06,360 share a bit about our sponsors this week. 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,920 If you're looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no 22 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,760 further than course one. More than 150,000 delegators, 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,880 including institutions like Bit Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,400 Trust Course one with the assets. 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,200 They support over 50 block chains and are leaders in 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,400 governance or networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is 27 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,360 responsibly managed. Thanks to the advanced MEV 28 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,200 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 29 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,680 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,480 label note, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 31 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,720 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,360 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 33 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,240 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,720 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,440 Gnosis leads innovation with Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri, 36 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,720 reshaping open banking and money. 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,160 With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, they're building a more 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,640 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,479 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Gnosis 40 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,120 Chain offers the same development environment as 41 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,640 Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 42 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:17,920 It's supported by over 200,000 ballot errors, making Gnosis 43 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:20,840 Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,120 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 45 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,520 governance, where every voice matters. 46 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,160 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 47 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,800 Deploy on the EVM compatible Gnosis Chain or secure the 48 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,160 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 49 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,280 Start your decentralization journey today at gnosis dot IO. 50 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,360 Cool. Thanks so much for taking the 51 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,240 time, Misha. I'm really excited to speak with 52 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,480 you. I think re staking is, you know, 53 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,080 as someone who's been working staking for a long time, it's a 54 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,760 very interesting new concept. It's an interesting kind of, you 55 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,800 know, conceptual evolution of where staking may go same time. 56 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,400 It's like totally at the beginning you guys had a lot of 57 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,120 like very interesting ideas. So I'm, I'm excited to speak 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,120 with you about that, but maybe I'm curious, maybe we can just 59 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,120 like start with a little bit your background, your journey, 60 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,160 like how did you get into crypto and what was your journey been? 61 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,880 Yeah, I like, I was interested interested in crypto for a 62 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:31,080 while, I think since 2011 or something in and out. 63 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,760 I, I learned about this electronic money concept and was 64 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,120 really impressed because like what, what, what not to be 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,560 impressed with the decentralized and unstoppable money. 66 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,440 Everything else. I, I, I knew little about like 67 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,920 how the institutions and how regulations work because nobody 68 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,640 knew that back then. Like it, it wasn't for like the 69 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,240 average consumer to know how like how people are, like how 70 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,840 banks are going to be like included or excluded from the 71 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,360 SEPA where SWIFT networks, like nobody knew about those networks 72 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,800 before. Like you, you didn't, if you 73 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,240 didn't do like cross-border payments or something like that, 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,560 you were like basically going visa to visa payments. 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,600 So yeah, like it was a really interesting concept. 76 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:29,560 Then like I tried mining Bitcoin for for a few like weeks or 77 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,120 days, I think, but it's like you couldn't do anything with that 78 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:37,840 except like trade on mountain gogs or something like that. 79 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,160 There were not no actual exchanges. 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,240 This one, I think there there was no defy. 81 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,360 There was nothing to actually do by but speculate on one like 82 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:55,120 asset pair. So, yeah, like I, I, I turned 83 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,080 that off for a while and then returned when the, I like ICO 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,760 and Ethereum started to take off. 85 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,840 And that's where like the interesting part began because 86 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:06,400 you, you can actually do something. 87 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,840 You could, I don't know, invest into ICU, like IC OS, you could 88 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:16,760 support interesting protocols because like donations were like 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,680 really huge back back then before IC OS, people just wanted 90 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,160 something to be built and they had like a lot of mined bitcoins 91 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,920 or Ethereums. So you just like go to Bitcoin 92 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,840 talk forum and just donate to people without expecting them to 93 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,360 like do something for you just to see where it where it, where 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,200 it goes. Ethereum was back down like it 95 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,640 was like 7 or like 5-5 bucks a piece. 96 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,320 So people were like spreading it around and then it grew by like 97 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:53,200 100% and then like 10:10, I don't know, like 1000%. 98 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,760 And a lot of people, they're building protocols realize that 99 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,720 this is like an actual funding mechanism. 100 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,360 What's the origin story of Symbiotic? 101 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Well, we were working on State Minds with Algis. 102 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,120 We found it. It's my Co founder for for 103 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,440 symbiotic as well. We're working on state Mind with 104 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:21,680 the goal of making our part like our industry a bit bigger by 105 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:26,960 like make it safer, protecting people and trying to secure 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,240 protocols, networks. Like we, we helped block chains 107 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,880 as well as roll ups secure their networks and as well as like big 108 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:41,240 huge defy protocols. And yeah, we analysed a bunch of 109 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,920 stuff like how do we, we had a team of around like 25 people 110 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,800 with us working on securing every part of the industry. 111 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,200 So we analysed like can we help secure compilers more? 112 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:59,760 So we helped wiper like wrote like fuzzer for them and make 113 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,120 like security assessments of that found like several bugs. 114 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,360 Then we realized like OK, like there is an old code, right? 115 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,320 We have multi client for their differential fuzzing other 116 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,760 tooling. So like this is semi coloured. 117 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,880 OK, what can we do next? Or like we have our PC notes, 118 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,200 our PC notes like secured by this, this and this. 119 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,480 And like we went through every, every part of the industry, like 120 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,840 basically every interaction that user can have with blockchain. 121 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,760 So like PBS and everything like that and identified parts that, 122 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,080 that are needed to, to, to make our like development 123 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,520 sustainable. Because for industry sometimes 124 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,680 takes like, I don't know, like from 100 to $1000 to get a 125 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,040 really like quality participant. And then immediately like 126 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,720 hundreds of thousands of them are gone because like there is 127 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,360 some vulnerability or something wiped out from like the, the 128 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,480 productive part of our crowd. So at some point we realized 129 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,720 like to, to make it, to make it sustainable. 130 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Like we identified the parts that a lot of protocols, a lot 131 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,280 of networks are starting centralized because the 132 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,920 centralization journey is so hard. 133 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,920 Yeah. And it's own unoptimized or 134 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,040 start with the really software validator set and software for 135 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,320 that. And we decided, yeah, it's a 136 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,160 good time to start like the protocol that optimizes for 137 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,840 that. And that's how we started 138 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,360 working on Symbiotic. OK. 139 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,240 So you said the protocol that optimizes for that maybe, Yeah, 140 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,159 describe like what is the problem that Symbiotic is trying 141 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,799 to solve? OK. 142 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,080 Yeah, basically the symbiotic is trying to solve 143 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:53,280 decentralisation. Decentralisation is like it's 144 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,120 suboptimal. Everybody knows that redundancy 145 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,120 is like a step from outside of optimum. 146 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:03,000 You the, the optimal setup is you have is 1 server that's 147 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,760 controlled by you that's deployed, that's deployed in one 148 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,240 place or like with the like with few backups, if you have like a 149 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,240 million nodes. It's not, it's, it's suboptimal. 150 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,840 The centralization is something that that's really expensive for 151 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,240 people to maintain. It's really hard to operate. 152 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,440 And yeah, like our, our basic job was to create an alignment 153 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:34,280 and of incentives and UX as well like supporting tools and 154 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,520 general support system to make this journey easier, to make it 155 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:46,200 this journey way more easier, like way easier to digest for 156 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,960 new protocols. So they, when they decide to to 157 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,800 launch centralized or with proof of authority or like with 158 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:00,760 whitelisting of operators, they decide on full-fledged 159 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,440 decentralization immediately. Not a hard task because like 160 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,560 again, it's physics, decentralization is by 161 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:12,920 definition suboptimal. But I think we we are on the 162 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:19,320 right path to make it so that it's way easier and way more 163 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:25,400 way, well, we're way more efficient for networks to use 164 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,600 outside. OK, so you want to make 165 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,160 decentralization easier and more efficient. 166 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:36,160 I think most people think of symbiotic as like restaking 167 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,240 protocol. What's the common, what's the 168 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:44,440 connection between, you know, decentralization and making 169 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,720 decentralization easy and restaking? 170 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,000 Yeah, OK. Like again, the the 171 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,960 decentralization is suboptimal. You need to pay a lot of people 172 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,720 a lot of money to operate your network. 173 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,320 Otherwise you can just play yourself or not play at all. 174 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:05,440 Get one server and operate your network. 175 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,720 If it's fully centralized, it's not going to be a network, but 176 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,800 like pay one mode to, to, to, to operate your network. 177 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,720 So the journey of this centralization is quite 178 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,640 expensive and it's quite hard. So you need to have like with 179 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,640 the current, with the current proof of stake models, you need 180 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,960 to have something to stake first, right? 181 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,080 Like you, you need to launch your own token. 182 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,920 For this token you need to create like some legal basis, 183 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,120 because you, you need that for you not to get sued after that. 184 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,360 Now you need to have a legal basis. 185 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,000 You you need to spread it around with a lot of participants. 186 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,960 Then you need to, you need to, you need to create enough 187 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,360 liquidity for, for the token price to be semi stable. 188 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,520 You need to list it on multiple exchanges and then you can 189 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,840 decentralize. So you need to, you need to 190 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:11,200 create a lot of things and you need to like go through a long 191 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,360 journey before you even think about decentralization. 192 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:20,200 And then you need to find yourself an operator set when 193 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,640 you find yourself an operator said like it's, you need to talk 194 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,480 to like each company separately. And that's when you actually can 195 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,640 start testing traction. And if you say like you're 196 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:37,800 talking say like around 100 mil, it is general consensus, total 197 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,280 circulating supply in general consensus. 198 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:46,760 You can't onboard 10 billion USD in Tether immediately because 199 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,320 you don't have the security base to support the circulating 200 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,720 supply of tokens on on your ecos like in your ecosystem or you 201 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,400 can't secure if you're like Oracle Network, you can't secure 202 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,560 1010100 bill of TVL in other defy protocols with your price 203 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:03,760 fit. So what is taken does is that it 204 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,720 helps you like as a part of shared security which we are 205 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,480 like we are shared security protocol. 206 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,040 So one of the primitives that we use is this taking what it does, 207 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,280 it enables you to get avoid economic base from the from the 208 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,160 tokens that are actually stable, that have like a really good 209 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,400 liquidity that are listed everywhere. 210 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,600 And immediately start testing your traction before all of the 211 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,800 steps that I described like before this 6 to 16 months of 212 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,360 development and like trying to, to create enough of the stable 213 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,200 economic base, enough of the like the really good validator 214 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,240 set and like the, the mechanics of your tokenomics and 215 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,680 everything like that. You can start immediately and 216 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,760 you can onboard a lot of money and really good operators 217 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,880 immediately almost. This is the goal at least for, 218 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:01,160 for shared security protocols. And like again, it plays to the 219 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,040 same narrative. You can do better while being 220 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,320 suboptimal. So you can get enough enough 221 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,440 weeks improvement, enough go to market improvement and now 222 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,680 enough capital efficiency to counteract and even like we 223 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,480 receive a lot of, a lot of benefits while being redundant 224 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,440 and while being decentralized from the start. 225 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,560 One point you're making right is that basically if you're 226 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,640 launching a proof of state network, right, it's expensive. 227 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,200 There's a whole bunch of overhead coordination, finding 228 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,560 operator set, etcetera in the restaking case. 229 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,440 So if now a protocol goes to symbiotic and they say, OK, I 230 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,760 want to launch some chain and I want an operator set and I want 231 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,960 to have some economic security, then I mean, generally they'll 232 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,720 still use their native token, no, because they still need to 233 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,920 provide some kind of incentive for this. 234 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,360 Or they can use points or other mechanisms for that. 235 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Like they, they, it's not there. There might be like the, the 236 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,960 optimization here might be achieved through V mechanics. 237 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:19,480 So lock up period dual staking baskets, taking a lot of other 238 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,160 like straight up model for some networks that like would never 239 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,040 need their talking at all. We we're exploring these 240 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,240 mechanisms as well. This is like a really bullish 241 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,800 concept, but for, for most like for totality of networks. 242 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,600 But yeah, there are a lot of novel mechanisms that are not 243 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,480 going to be like they were not available at all before You can, 244 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,880 you can shorten your journey by a lot, just not like launching 245 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,320 your talking immediately or launching it in like some 246 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,720 limited capacity while already testing traction of your ID or 247 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,280 product market feed with like a huge economic base. 248 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,480 So one big benefit right, that I, I can totally see is that, 249 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,600 you know, you're making things a lot more flexible, right? 250 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,080 Because, because so far, let's say actually proof of stake has 251 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,880 been pretty, pretty uniform in a lot of ways, right? 252 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,880 There's some variation, right? Like for example, some protocol 253 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,080 say, oh, the validators have to hold some self bond in their 254 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,280 wallet and others can can be delegated, you know, so there's 255 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,160 some difference there, like let's say Tasers, a few others. 256 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,520 But you know, mostly it's really the kind of cosmos taking model 257 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,680 I think has been the most common where, you know, you have some 258 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,480 people running validators, then people delegate to the 259 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,640 validators. The validators charge some kind 260 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,840 of Commission and then the voting power on the chain of all 261 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,360 the validators is determined by the amount that's being staked. 262 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,360 And then, you know, the protocol basically inflates the supply 263 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,560 and it pays its to the people staking. 264 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,960 So that's like really like the standard model that I think it's 265 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,760 been copied over and over again. What do you think are the 266 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,000 problems with this? Like from an economic and 267 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,359 incentive perspective? Yeah. 268 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,280 Well, like you, you were mentioned or you were mainly 269 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,480 mentioned in chains. It's really important for people 270 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,000 to understand that like we have oracles as well. 271 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,280 We have threshold networks that are like operating on completely 272 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,480 different mechanisms. We have pre conformal network, 273 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,000 fast finality networks, other like networks that are not 274 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,800 chained, they're still secured by stake and economic security, 275 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,640 but they're not block chains. They don't operate. 276 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,640 And on the same principle every decentralized chain can use not 277 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,640 not the chain, every decentralized network. 278 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,480 That's what why why they call why we call them networks can 279 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,960 benefit from economic security if they have like some ability 280 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,160 for validators to misbehave or operators to misbehave. 281 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,840 So like slashing mechanism versus the reward mechanism in 282 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,600 terms of optimization, straight up optimization, yeah, like 283 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,360 where you can you can start immediately, like go to market 284 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,200 optimization of six months is going to be a huge value 285 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,520 proposition for a lot of people. And Cosmos SDK that you 286 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,360 mentioned the Cosmos, Cosmos change that you mentioned they 287 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,240 even with the like incentives how they are to develop for 288 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,440 Cosmos ecosystem, they reached a lot of they, they reached a lot 289 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,320 of actual use cases and like a lot of teams that are building 290 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,200 on this tech stack because they have a unique optimization that 291 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,480 we are trying to achieve as well. 292 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,200 Just imagine if you have like registry that's can be reused 293 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,920 multiple times, network middlewares, trust routes on 294 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,160 Ethereum that can be reused multiple times. 295 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,880 People launching with like with the same primitive or close 296 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,000 primitive networks that are operate with the same like 297 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,840 tokenomics or with the same reward or like slashing model, 298 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,240 they can reuse code each time that they they, they launch. 299 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,600 So it's not a like 1 to one journey. 300 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,240 And like that's what brought a lot of people to Cosmos because 301 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,880 their system can be reused. We are building that, but in 302 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,160 more generalized way. So it like will encompass every 303 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,280 decentralized network and bring optimization that that is 304 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,480 reached for it is taken. So you don't have to pay your 305 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,800 validator that much or your operator that much because 306 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,680 you're use like the you have less, less money to to pay APY 307 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,640 for less amount of money. Yeah. 308 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,280 And like while getting to go to market and like type pure timing 309 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,000 optimization. So I, I feel this is actually a 310 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,800 very interesting aspect of like the economics of re staking and 311 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,200 like one way I so if you take like a typical Cosmos network, 312 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,360 right, So let's say tip or typical proof of stake chain 313 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,320 doesn't really matter. So let's say it has a market cap 314 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:22,400 of 100 million and now it has. Inflation of 7%. 315 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,280 So let's say it pays 7 million a year to the stakers, But then of 316 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,560 course, most of this is just people who hold the native 317 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,560 token. They get more of the native 318 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,040 tokens. So they're like, oh, I'm happy I 319 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,720 have more tokens, right. I just, you know, accumulate 320 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,560 more tokens and then you have something that is going to the 321 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,920 validators who are actually doing the work of like running 322 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,600 the chain. So let's say that is like let's 323 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,320 say it's like 7% on average. So now in such a chain, right, 324 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,840 let's say in this example, you'd have like half a million per 325 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,280 year, which is actually paid to the validators running the 326 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,680 chain. The rest goes to back to the 327 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,360 token holders. I mean I see what one downside I 328 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,920 see in this is that maybe the payments to the valid is a very 329 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:18,280 uneven right. Some make a lot because they 330 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,360 have big stake. A lot of them might be running 331 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,920 at a loss. But if you compare it to re 332 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:28,320 staking, right, if now I'm have my native token and I pay to, 333 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,640 you know, Ethereum holders or Bitcoin holders or, you know, 334 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,280 somebody else who has some other asset and they just want to have 335 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,880 more yield on their other asset, then, you know, you have to 336 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,560 assume that in most cases they're just going to sell the 337 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,760 token, right? And this is like going to lead 338 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,600 to sale pressure for this asset. So I'm curious how you think 339 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,480 about that and like how you sort of deal with the, yeah, this 340 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,600 aspect of, you know, the more you pay in rewards, the more 341 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,680 cell pressure it creates in the restaking scenario. 342 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,560 Yep. In actuality, the highest amount 343 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,880 of pressure that you can experience is when you're paying 344 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,800 for the stake in your own tokens when you launch natively, 345 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,640 because just imagine you have first you're launching your own 346 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:32,120 token. So like you usually your annual 347 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,240 APR is a bit higher than like for the classical assets because 348 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480 you need to like that there is more risk involved. 349 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,160 So like if for Ethereum it's like 3.5%, new networks usually 350 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:49,200 pay up to like well, 1510% in some cases like so I would take 351 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:57,760 like 10% as a, as a metric. So you pay 10% for the the 352 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:04,440 amount of like that for the 100 mil that you you have, you can't 353 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,240 abort a lot of money. You can't get generate a lot of 354 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,320 fees. You can't bring B protocols 355 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,960 because you're limited by the amount of like your market cap. 356 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,560 So it's going to be a slow growth for you. 357 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,280 Like if you're not viral immediately, it will take you a 358 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,240 couple of years to get on board enough protocols, enough 359 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:28,200 networks like boost your market cap that like you can actually 360 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,240 on board them. So like at least for like one 361 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,400 bill or two bill and it's you're going to be paying 10% like on 362 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,440 your tokens each time. So you're going to be like 363 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,760 diluting your tokens. Let's take the case of like 364 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,000 using risk taking first. You can use mechanisms of V 365 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,560 tokens points or other mechanisms that to to postpone 366 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,640 the actual cell pressure on your tokens by months or like year if 367 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:02,080 if you have like really good user base that understands that. 368 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,200 So no pressure at all in in this optimization, you can use dual 369 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,760 staking for the optimization of like and motivate people to 370 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,200 stake your native tokens to get this proportional amount of 371 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,960 rewards to say Etherium stakers. You can use other like million 372 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,360 mechanism for that. But let's let's imagine you 373 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,160 don't like you don't you're not clever at all. 374 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,920 You're not going to be using any of those, OK, like for Etherium 375 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:41,400 stakers you can create like you, you can use same if token like 376 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,640 say around five times, right? This is like the the threshold 377 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,320 that we are looking at right now five times. 378 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:59,440 So each network for you to get the same amount of APR can like 379 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,920 can provide APR, say like three times as low. 380 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,200 So you only need to pay 3% for the amount of stake that you 381 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,120 receive. But you can start with couple of 382 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,000 billions in ethereal if your your system requires that. 383 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,400 If it's an Oracle system that's going to be like you already 384 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,200 have like a good BG connections to say Ava or other protocols 385 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,560 for them to use your price feed and you immediately start with 386 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,080 like your system secured by two bill. 387 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,840 Yeah, you're going to be paying for like 3% for that in your 388 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,920 token. But again, there are a lot of 389 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,560 optimizations for that to counter the price pressure or 390 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,560 eliminate it all together. And you you test your product 391 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,400 market, if you don't scale immediately well-being safer 392 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,440 then you will never like be. So even without optimization, 393 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,920 yeah, like mistaken will just divide like by the order of like 394 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,960 by the mistaken ratio divide the amount of like cell pressure you 395 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,560 are going to be experienced, experienced. 396 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,680 I actually don't, I really don't agree with this. 397 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,080 Like let's take the example, right, You have a company and 398 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,320 the company has shares and now you do a stock split and now 399 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,680 instead of one share, everyone has 2 shares. 400 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,000 Like did you really change anything? 401 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,760 Not really, right? It's just everyone has twice as 402 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,520 many shares. They're worth half as much. 403 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,360 The market cap of the company is the same. 404 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,800 Like I think staking, like on a very simple level, if you have, 405 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,600 if you pay staking more, it's in your native token. 406 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,400 Two people already holding your native tokens is just kind of 407 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,840 like a stock split. It's sort of like, now there's a 408 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,760 little caveat there, right, which is that some people are 409 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,840 probably going to need to pay taxes on their stake rewards and 410 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,400 then they will have to sell some of it. 411 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:51,840 I think that's that is a factor. But still like you're, you know, 412 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280 for the most part, you're paying more rewards. 413 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,480 It doesn't mean you have. It's not an actual cost because 414 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840 you're paying it to your token holders anyway. 415 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,200 You're paying to a portion of your token holders. 416 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,160 That's like start, you're splitting the stocks for like 417 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000 less than half of your state, less than half of. 418 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,080 Yeah, you, you do. You do have some redistributive 419 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,600 effect. That's true, right, Where you 420 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,320 basically redistributing ownership from those not staking 421 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,840 to those staking, which you know, you can think about 422 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960 whether you want that or not. It may not be bad, right? 423 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,440 Because like, who are the people who are not going to be staking 424 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,240 and maybe short term holders, market makers, traders, things 425 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,480 like that. People that are using this in 426 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,960 Defy, say, people who are like actually using token to like and 427 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,440 you need all of those like I I wouldn't like value one more 428 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,880 than the other or you don't want to proportion of like more than 429 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,920 half of your tokens to be staked ever. 430 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,360 Like this is that we had the systems that that were designed 431 00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,200 specifically not to allow for that. 432 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,120 Ethereum was trying to counter that like at at all costs 433 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,280 because like that, that's that's how you get that, that 434 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:12,280 blockchains no, like the, the stake amount first. 435 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,640 Yeah, like let's let's let's like go argument by argument. 436 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,800 So it's not a stock split because like only a portion of 437 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,800 your shareholders are splitting their tokens. 438 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,240 OK, sure. It's different in this regard 439 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,640 like by a lot then like the actual mode of transport there 440 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,040 is like validators and stakers sell their tokens all the time, 441 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,120 not because of taxes, but because they want to hedge the 442 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,640 risks and they need capital. Like no, like we, we, we have 443 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,080 analytics for that. Like it's pretty like it's 444 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:51,160 pretty well well researched and yeah, here and it's like it, 445 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,240 it's really like once you launch and once you actually have 446 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:01,760 stakers, the mechanics of rewards is it's kind of hard to 447 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,720 update for networks. Like for networks launching with 448 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,960 restaking, it's a bit more flexible because they have like 449 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,720 they have they they have an economic security base that is 450 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,440 outside of their own token. Immediately they experiment 451 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,280 without people actually ever risking their money because they 452 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,440 have like Ethereum to to rely on for for at least for 453 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,760 bootstrapping face. And then they can stimulate the 454 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,800 the same behavior, but with local periods and like a lot of 455 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,040 other mechanisms that are going to be doing the same thing that 456 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,640 you you're just mentioned, but doing them on the algorithmic 457 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,320 level, not on like oh, believe in our like operators and 458 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,080 validators. They're not going to be selling 459 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,520 or stakers. They will like that. 460 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,160 That's all they do. No well, except for like polka 461 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,680 dot ones, because most of them were like non non existent at 462 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,040 the time. They're like that accounts that 463 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,480 accounts don't sell. Other than that, yeah, like you, 464 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,640 you, you can create systems that are way more sustainable that 465 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,280 what we have right now. Because like there, there 466 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,880 there's going to be like mechanisms that are will reward 467 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,920 the behaviour that you've talked about and this actually will 468 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,440 become like less of a payment. Yeah, I definitely agree that 469 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,560 like the flexibility here is very appealing, right where you 470 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,880 can like experiment with a lot of different. 471 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,760 Now I I think my other thing here where I also have a bit of 472 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,320 AII disagree to some extent with one of the key narratives around 473 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,360 re staking. And you also like mention it. 474 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,680 You're like, OK, some chain launches and you know, they only 475 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,840 have like 100 million market cap and you know that's somehow a 476 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,000 problem. And if you say like, oh, now you 477 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,360 have like 2 billion that's sort of securing this chain. 478 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,760 It makes like a material difference. 479 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,120 I think in like, you know, in the history of proof of stake, 480 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,080 right, we've had tons and tons of proof of stake network 481 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,920 launch. I'm not aware of a single proof 482 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:16,840 of stake network that, you know, failed because, you know, the 483 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,400 economic security wasn't high enough and then it got, you 484 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,440 know, attacked or something like that. 485 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,800 And you know, you made the example of oracles right now, 486 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,480 OK, you may have an Oracle that's now securing a lot of 487 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,800 value. But I mean, if you take the 488 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,440 biggest Oracle chain link, I mean chain link, for the longest 489 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,640 time, even though the chain link token had like huge market cap, 490 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,880 it didn't actually secure any of the Oracle feeds, right? 491 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,840 It was basically APOA system. Or you know, to give another 492 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,400 example, you know, there's like Noble chain in Cosmos issuing 493 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,440 USCC again, there's not even a token there. 494 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,640 It's there's actually 0 economic value. 495 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,040 It's like proof of authority chain as well. 496 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,080 So I think even even in those systems where you do have like, 497 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:15,760 you know, some very high amounts of value at risk, you know, if, 498 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,320 if Chain Lake now said, OK, it's 10 billions of dollars is 499 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,120 securing these oracles, does it really make a difference to 500 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,160 people who really care? So I, I, I feel like the, the 501 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:34,800 degree, the number of cases where having like more economic 502 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:40,840 security, that's like securing a system being like a major driver 503 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,320 of success. I think it's extremely small. 504 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,280 Yeah, it's not a driver of success. 505 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,160 It's a driver of like first it's a perception driver and then 506 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:57,680 like the the examples that you mentioned are, yeah, like chain 507 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,440 link where it was operating under pro authority for a long 508 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,680 time. It's a first mover advantage. 509 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,640 Now we have networks that are like actually fixing a lot of 510 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,840 those because pro authority requires being permissioned and 511 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,840 being permissioned requires decision making for every 512 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,160 network for every price feed because you're the one who who 513 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,200 who's making that decision. That's why like new newcomers 514 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,400 are like eating the cake of chain link in a lot of ways, 515 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,560 because on actual economic security, their permission 516 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,520 permissionless systems can be built. 517 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,960 So we have like other optimization. 518 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:41,000 Poor authority is not only bad because like it's unsafe, which 519 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,840 which that is, and proof of authority and small validator 520 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,680 sets that are controlled by networks. 521 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:54,120 They're not like they're not, they're not like they, they have 522 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,680 like examples where they stole people's money. 523 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,280 Like I remember a few of those. I, I need just need to remember 524 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,360 names. There were like a really small 525 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,440 networks that track their users with the small operator set that 526 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,960 was controlled by them. The biggest example of 527 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,800 centralization of operators is EOCR. 528 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,520 It was like a long, long time ago EOS. 529 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,800 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 530 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,960 So like they had like operator said that was really small and 531 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,760 they were attacked by it multiple times. 532 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,679 We had examples of that and industry learned their lesson 533 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:36,520 now like small cap low, like low footprint networks, they're not 534 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,080 getting traction not because like that they're not getting 535 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,440 hacked. They just get perception of not 536 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,440 being safe enough. And for Oracle networks, yeah, 537 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:53,000 that's why chain link were like the perception that it was safe 538 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,400 help them to be market leader for a really long time. 539 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,680 And now this perception can be counteracted by the actual 540 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,400 economic model. So newcomers were really having 541 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,600 a really hard time competing with changing because of the 542 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,080 perception and really good track record. 543 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,360 And this is like the the flexibility and optimization and 544 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:20,440 go to market. This really jumps is is like 545 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,400 innovation speed booster markets that were like gate capped by a 546 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,360 reputation for a long time, as well as like the operator 547 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,080 markets as a close, a semi close club. 548 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,880 They can be unlocked with risk taking because you can get the 549 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,280 same economic security and the same like you don't have to have 550 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,960 the same reputation, but you can have the same economic actual 551 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,960 economic security as the bigger networks immediately. 552 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,680 And I think like this is really, really powerful. 553 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,840 And yeah, like, but those are like the Oracle network and POS 554 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,160 chain. They are that they're not like 555 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,560 the flagship cases. They're really like I, I hope I 556 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:07,480 explained a bit like why does why, why does why, why is this 557 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,200 important not only from the like pure security perspective, but 558 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,320 from the traction testing and flexibility perspective. 559 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,760 But let's say like you have, say, pre confirmations or 560 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,960 anything that like works with the like hundreds or hundreds, 561 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,000 thousands or like millions of proposals, right? 562 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:31,440 Be it's pre confirmations, be it immediately, be it something 563 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,200 else. If you need a huge operator sets 564 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,720 to be secured by some like by by by some tokens, if you just have 565 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:43,240 staking, you need to like for them to be secured. 566 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,640 I don't know, like by hundreds of billions of dollars, like the 567 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,840 same as they use for their like part of the, the, the stake that 568 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,360 they're going to be using for their actual proof of stake 569 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,560 operations. And with this taken, you can be 570 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,000 like secured like 100,000 proposals can be secured by like 571 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,640 1 if you do more like 10 if you do. 572 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,120 And that's going to beat like we'll, we'll, we're still seeing 573 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,440 the, the risk taking cases emerging. 574 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,120 But even like the worst case scenario proof of stake network, 575 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,680 I like I explained how it can be like optimized a lot as well. 576 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,040 Yeah, yeah. Well, I would say let's talk a 577 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,640 little bit about the architecture of Symbiotic. 578 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,040 Like what does the system actually look like and what are 579 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,520 the different Yeah components and and actors in the system? 580 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,200 Yeah. Well, it has like basically 3 581 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,360 participants. First is takers, that's so that 582 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,000 give give their stake to to networks through operators, 583 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,880 operators, networks and stakers. Networks require economic 584 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,960 security to launch and decentralize their network. 585 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,840 They are receiving that from stakers through operators with 586 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,360 their operator set. And if network is OK, like 587 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,080 network is the arguably the most important participant, if it's 588 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,720 OK with the amount of stake that they receive and the amount of 589 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:28,320 like the the validator said that is attached to that, they opt in 590 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,640 and they start start to be operated by those operators 591 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,360 through this stake. If any of the operators violate 592 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,160 some rules of the network, network can slash them. 593 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,960 If they don't, network can reward them their their role of 594 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,720 restaking protocol or shared security protocol in our case is 595 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:52,080 to make sure that once the like the commitments are made that 596 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,000 this is the mode of work between those three that complete 597 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:03,120 commitment are commitments are like commitments are followed. 598 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,520 OK. So you have stakers, operators, 599 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,680 you have the networks. So let's talk through this from 600 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,640 to perspective maybe of the stakers and the operators. 601 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:24,440 So if I'm somebody who wants to now stake and I want to earn, 602 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,640 you know, additional rewards, maybe I have some other 603 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,640 interests like I don't know, maybe I find some of the 604 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,840 projects interesting, the building on Symbiotic or 605 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,000 something like that. Like what is the flow here? 606 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,040 The the staker will then choose some network to restake to and 607 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:46,040 then for example choose maybe some operator that they trust Or 608 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,280 how would the state? What does the Staker experience 609 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,720 look like? Yeah, well, most of this this 610 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:58,320 experience will go through LRTS, but if like say an example of 611 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,320 that like the the staker wants to to manage everything 612 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,480 themselves, they will create a vault, a vault, the vault will 613 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,080 have like. Lock up period that corresponds 614 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:17,080 to the networks that they want to wants to stake to it will 615 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:23,520 have its own or like separate resolver that's basically the 616 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,960 safeguard against the unlawful slashing. 617 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,920 And through this resolver like it's it will select the operator 618 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,520 said that it's wants to delegate to and the network it wants to 619 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,160 opt in and through this evaluator set and once this 620 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:42,760 request is made network can agree and select this stake to 621 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,960 be operated. OK. 622 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,600 So you mentioned a lot of it stake would go through LRTSLRTS, 623 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,680 meaning like liquid restaking tokens for those who follow the 624 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,960 eigen layer. You know, you've had that there, 625 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,400 like ether fry, Renzo and stuff getting a lot of traction. 626 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,800 How, how do you imagine LO TS will work? 627 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:11,360 And, and does this mean basically as a as a staker, I 628 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,880 want to benefit from, you know, when we take some assets, I want 629 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,560 to use symbiotic. I would then just basically, for 630 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:25,000 example, take my EF and deposit it in an LOT and I get some sort 631 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:31,720 of, I don't know, Renzo, swell, Etherfy, something LOT token and 632 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,880 then on the back end what happens? 633 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,640 On the back end though, did this take through the vault of LRTS 634 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:45,240 is going to be deposited into vault on symbiotic side and it's 635 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,200 going to be delegated to network through the operator set by the 636 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,800 LRT management management team. Yeah. 637 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,040 And like we already have like around 1212 LR TS. 638 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,600 So like this is how it's like this is not an unvalidated 639 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,120 concept. We already received most of our 640 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,720 stake for LR TS because it's just like maybe more optimal 641 00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:13,400 that way for most users. So, and then the LR TS would 642 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,120 basically they would then decide, OK, which of these 643 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:24,520 networks do we want to secure? They would then say, and they 644 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,920 would have some existing operator set, let's say they 645 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,640 have like 10 operators or something. 646 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:36,000 And then they would say, OK, now we go to Network A and we say, 647 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:43,320 OK, we bring our 10 operators, we bring $500 million worth of 648 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,800 economic security and basically negotiate some kind of 649 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:54,760 compensation for that. And the network will receive 650 00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:01,000 several requests for that from different LRTS and we'll select 651 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:08,160 the basket of LRTS, their own users or like the, the yeah, the 652 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,800 sump proportion of it. So say like 5 LRTS 200 fifty 653 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:21,160 552,003 thousand users for outside of LRT and this is going 654 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,880 to be the set of stakers for from the beginning of the 655 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,600 network to be changed later. Right. 656 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,360 So I think what is interesting is that LO TS kind of become 657 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,960 this also collective like bargaining organization know 658 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,680 where they would like negotiate sort of on behalf of both the 659 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,160 stakers and the validators with operators. 660 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,080 Yeah, they their job is going to be to fight for for the most 661 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,440 optimal stake location. Yeah. 662 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,240 I expect a lot of optimizations to come from LRT fights once 663 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,880 they actually start. Yeah, 'cause they are obviously 664 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,440 also going to be in, yeah, very serious competition. 665 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:16,400 Yeah, of course like that there is limited amount of networks at 666 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,200 least from the beginning and there's going to be not a lot of 667 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,080 rewards for them probably from the beginning as well. 668 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,000 So like all artists will will have to fight and choose and try 669 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,080 to be on boarded into as many good networks as possible 670 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,560 because other other than that they're the only ones like 671 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,520 spreading their talking around and there is no like inherent 672 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,760 reward being like beneath them at the base layer. 673 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:48,520 And then you guys also have some plans, is my understanding too, 674 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,680 because right now basically Symbiotic is a set of smart 675 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:58,440 contracts on Ethereum. Of course, today's staking 676 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,120 happens all over the place in many different ecosystems and 677 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,920 networks. How do you imagine that in many 678 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:14,640 cases Ethereum remains as this kind of place where some of this 679 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,360 coordination happens of like stake and operators and LRTS? 680 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:24,040 Or do you imagine that you know, this will be kind of expanded to 681 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,760 different networks? Yeah, Symbiotic is in every 682 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:33,120 network already like the. This is by design the fact that 683 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,000 our trust route is based on Ethereum and we use like 684 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,680 Ethereum as like data availability and execution 685 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,880 layer. It doesn't mean that much like 686 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:49,160 we can, we symbiotic is designed in a way that we can use like 687 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:54,280 tokens or on like almost any chain and like we don't have to 688 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,720 transport them to Ethereum. Even the assets on like Cosmos, 689 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:04,800 the other chains that the assets on like on the Solana or any 690 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,360 like almost any place else can be used. 691 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,040 This is the unique feature of restaking kind of like shared 692 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,960 security, at least as how how we designed it. 693 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,600 The fact that you don't need immediate bridging or fast rapid 694 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,320 bridging. You just need to do to 695 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,480 asynchronously slash something and make sure that something is 696 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,720 still present in the escrow or some deposit contract on other 697 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:34,280 chains. It enables you to to use assets 698 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,560 that are like outside of Ethereum easily. 699 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960 And that's how we designed. We have this collateral 700 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,920 abstraction and dogs like it's like a bit of a technical 701 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:48,200 concept, but basically like a lot of a lot of other outside 702 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,440 ecosystems are building on us. Yeah, the registry is going to 703 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,560 be stored on Etherium. But like everything else in 704 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,040 terms of ecosystem, in terms of LRT, in terms of reward, reward 705 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,200 management and slashing can be done on their ecosystem without 706 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,120 like any vampire attack from Etherium or something like that. 707 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,720 So as like as current thinking goes, we'll see about like the 708 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,600 future, but there is no like actual need for Symbiotic to be 709 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,200 deployed anywhere, anywhere else. 710 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,640 We just lose like some networks of effect. 711 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,360 So like let's say if you say like, OK, some Solana related 712 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:31,240 thing would use symbiotic, you guys would not need to deploy 713 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,480 some kind of smart contracts on Solana. 714 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,960 Is yeah, is there will will the, the the supply side for the 715 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,200 liquidity will need to have some escrow contract or a deposit 716 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,360 contract. That's burner contract that 717 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,040 yeah, that needs to be like unwrap and burn if if the 718 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,680 message is received from the from the Ethereum side. 719 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,800 But no, like the core of Symbiotic can stay on Ethereum 720 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,920 and it's like it does need to be deployed as soon as you want to 721 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,440 use some like some collateral from other chains, you just 722 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,680 deploy the this the like the the simplest of messaging players 723 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,800 when contract and you're good to go. 724 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,280 If you want to get have rewards on Solana as well, you'll need 725 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,200 to deploy like Solana contract of rewards. 726 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,800 But the registry is going to be taken from Ethereum because like 727 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,400 actually you don't need like there. 728 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,560 There are there aren't a lot of requirements to their base layer 729 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,720 for there is taking. It doesn't have to be like fast 730 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,800 in terms of finality. It doesn't have to be cheap. 731 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,720 It's just needs to be like as have as much of network effect 732 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:51,160 as possible and to be like as efficient of orchestration layer 733 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,360 as possible. And if you do miss that, that's 734 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,480 why we designed Symbiotic to work on if you do L1, but in 735 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,480 actuality like especially if like you have canonical bridge 736 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,400 or something or IBC, you can use it anywhere else. 737 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,160 You you don't need to deploy Symbiotic to every ecosystem 738 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,600 like it's already there basically. 739 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,080 What about slashing? How do you imagine slashing to 740 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,760 work? Well, it's going to be different 741 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:25,720 for every asset at least like we we're just exploring this this 742 00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:29,280 part of the wood slashing. Yeah, like it's the the main 743 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,000 part about it is that it's going to be it's going to be 744 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,120 determined by networks first of all, like this is the important 745 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,480 part. You don't have to like there, 746 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,600 there is no one-size-fits-all. For some networks like we'll 747 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:47,920 there, there's going to be like algorithmic slashing for some 748 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,240 reason for some networks, they're going to be subjective 749 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:53,480 slashing because you can't verify like the the actual 750 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,680 active misbehaviour. For other there, there can be 751 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,960 consensus slashing. The the fact that we designed it 752 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,440 really flexible manner. So like network can can can 753 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,320 deploy that any in any way that they want. 754 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,800 The tricky part for that was like, how do we make it safer? 755 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,920 And that's why we designed the resolvers that are going to be 756 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:21,760 like really important at least for the beginning to be to, to 757 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,480 to help mitigate some bug related or like abuse related 758 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,640 slashings. Resolvers are going to be veto 759 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,640 committee that are going to be standing between the network 760 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,960 messaging of slashing and the actual stake. 761 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,280 They can be like again that really flexible algorithmic ones 762 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,040 prove based ones or so this. Also chosen by the network. 763 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:51,360 The resolvers are chosen by both like they they are chosen by the 764 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,960 pair of stakers and network. They both agree on that. 765 00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,840 The resolvers that are going to become connected through they 766 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,200 can be different. They can be like tiered in terms 767 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,440 of like how they they work. There are different 768 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:11,840 configurations from the start just to like safely innovate in 769 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,120 this category of of of protocols. 770 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,480 I think there's going to be a committee mistakes mostly. 771 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,960 And then most of them like will will go resolver resolver less 772 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,600 and like probably like or or go into route of like proof, you 773 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,360 know, Zeke proofs or fraud proofs, but that remains to be 774 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:33,800 seen. Yes. 775 00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:42,600 I'm actually also curious if you think slashing is important. 776 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:47,120 I mean, if we look at the, you know, the history of proof of 777 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,200 stake, right? The first of all, if you look at 778 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:55,200 in the amount of money that has been sort of slashed, it's very, 779 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,120 very, very tiny. You also had the case that 780 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,840 actually, for example, when Cosmos launched, Cosmos today 781 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:08,440 has like your ATOM, Cosmos Hub has 5% slashing, so 5% of the 782 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,960 state roads can be slashed. Actually, I remember when Cosmos 783 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,720 launched, the idea was, oh, we're going to launch like that 784 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,400 because it's, you know, beta, it's new. 785 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:23,360 But then later we will increase. But of course it never increased 786 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,040 and honestly nobody ever pushed for it to be increased. 787 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,960 When Solana launched, they were also, oh, it's beta, it's new. 788 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,520 So we are going to launch without slashing. 789 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,960 And then totally actually at the time was talking about, oh, 790 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,240 maybe we're going to have 100% slashing later. 791 00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:41,360 And if you double sign you get. But today, Solana many years 792 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,880 later, it's become very, very successful, very big proof of 793 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,280 state network and it doesn't have any slashing. 794 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,280 Avalanche doesn't have slashing, right. 795 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,080 So do you think slashing is important? 796 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,120 Do you imagine that like there would be regular slashing events 797 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:05,560 or do you imagine like do you think there also might be a lot 798 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,440 of chain set or chains or all these centralized systems that 799 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,560 symbiotic that are using symbiotic that don't use 800 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,720 slashing at all? Yeah, yeah. 801 00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:20,920 I expect, I expect some category of networks to to not have 802 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,360 slashing at all for them. Stake is going to be just 803 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,840 gatekeeping like mechanism and voting mechanisms. 804 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,080 You get enough reputation for people to vote for your network 805 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,640 because the money are still limited for their supply. 806 00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:42,080 And you get like to gatekeep the operator set like the basically 807 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,200 the delegation without slashing. For some networks. 808 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,960 It works like in case of Solana, by the way, like the it's the 809 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,000 only major blockchain that was not available for like days on 810 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,040 end. So I think that that like no 811 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,080 slashing gruel backfired for them like multiple times. 812 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,720 And I'm like, I'm sure that we'll see more fun news from 813 00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,640 them as well in the future. Well, I, I, I don't know if that 814 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,680 has a lot to do with the slashing though. 815 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,880 The Solana downtown, I think that's different. 816 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,800 Like if actual people were slashed I think they would take 817 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,640 this outage more seriously. Yeah. 818 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,840 Yeah. But yeah, for some networks 819 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,240 slashing is inevitable. Like if it's straight up, we, we 820 00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:29,480 have like multiple threshold networks, security and a lot of 821 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,000 stake and a lot of like like wallets that are really like 822 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,160 high, high volume for Oracle network slashing might be like 823 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,240 really essential if their oracles are like option based or 824 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:47,280 like calculation based. And for, for some networks, even 825 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,720 the eco processor networks, unique slashing is going to be 826 00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:54,360 really important because if they don't perform within this, 827 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,160 within this like some small window, they might deliver a lot 828 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:03,520 of like a lot of harm to users. For a tester network that this 829 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,960 might be really important because like what what's 830 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,600 stopping you from like issue and attestation that like you 831 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,960 receive transaction and transactions finalized when you 832 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,000 actually don't have that? And like they're like exchanges 833 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,640 are going to get hurt or some people that are going to get 834 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,520 hurt in process or like arbitrars. 835 00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:24,440 Arbitrars are going to be hurt. Yeah, for pre confirmation, it's 836 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,440 obviously a big deal because like people if they don't have 837 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,960 like the other like somewhere old, like included in the block, 838 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:36,360 they will lose a lot of money. So that they might be immediate 839 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,680 harm. For blockchains with like with 840 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,960 modern consensus mechanisms, yeah, the harm is like limited a 841 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,440 lot. So they might like skip their 842 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:55,960 leg day and disable or not enable yeah, not enable the the 843 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,560 slashing call together. I think the will the the the 844 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:04,040 shared security will help find this like sweet spot because 845 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,920 like the difference is going to be quite noticeable just because 846 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,960 like the the overall experience will be more streamlined and you 847 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,920 will you'll have like 2 networks launching at the same time, 1 be 848 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,080 slashing the other one is not without and see like how it goes 849 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:25,440 from both sides. So what about immutability of 850 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,240 the symbiotic contracts? Is that something where you 851 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:31,440 think they should be like fixed, immutable? 852 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,160 Is there a rule for governance there? 853 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,920 Yeah, well, like it was. This was the hard part, to 854 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,640 actually design the system to be as flexible as it is, but still 855 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,000 immutable at its at its core. Like it took us 8 months to do 856 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,760 that. Yeah, but we did. 857 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,600 As with everything else, the goal was for us to cater to as 858 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,640 much possible network types and like business type types and 859 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,440 token types and participant types as possible. 860 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,680 And we just wanted to eliminate the government's risk for now. 861 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:17,000 Yeah, there is no way to upgrade the contracts because like we, 862 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,480 we don't want people ever being concerned with that. 863 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,040 This is like within the same trope for us to, to reach 864 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,040 optimization as with the highest, the highest rate of 865 00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,000 like with the, with the highest success success rate possible. 866 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,160 And for that, yeah, like there there's no way for us to 867 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,480 introduce Peace 1st and there is no way for us to upgrade the 868 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,640 contracts. So yeah, like there is no, there 869 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,920 is no like governance inside, at least for the core part of the 870 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:52,120 contracts. And then do you imagine, I mean 871 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,200 with Uniswap, it was kind of like that too, right? 872 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,920 It was V2 and then V3. So do you also imagine there 873 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:04,960 will be sort of later versions of symbiotic like similar to 874 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:10,400 like how Uniswap upgraded? Yeah, that might be one of the 875 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,440 trope for US, one of the possible pathing. 876 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,320 There might be others like the core that depends on like how 877 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:25,840 the actual market starts. If we were like amazingly 878 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,240 diligent during this like 8 months that we were like 879 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,440 developing the architecture and if we were so great that we 880 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,280 designed the system to work for V1 forever and account for every 881 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,080 possible use case, then yeah, sure. 882 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,200 Like V1 is going to be it for a while. 883 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,720 But we, we have like that they're 100% going to be 884 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,920 optimization in auxiliary systems and like well, 885 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,000 upgradable parts. Then the core is going to be 886 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,400 just widely reused by everyone forever. 887 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,280 And the like, the actual value add is going to be reached 888 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,600 through auxiliary systems. If like we identified like, and 889 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,440 this is like probably closer to what will happen if we 890 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,520 identified we haven't yet. Like Full disclosure, we for 891 00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,520 now, the core works ideally like it works great, but like the, 892 00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,600 the when the industry starts and then matures, if we identify 893 00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,480 something, there is of course going to be like we, we, if we 894 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,760 identify value at that will warrant people migrating from V1 895 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,840 to V2, same as Uniswap. Of course there's going to be an 896 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,960 upgrade path for us. It just designed to be like 897 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,080 migrated as like secure as possible. 898 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,880 So people would would actually need to opt in into every 899 00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:45,400 version. So currently, what are some of 900 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,680 the things that people are building on Symbiotic that you 901 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,360 know you're most excited about and you feel like they're the 902 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,360 best examples of how you want the system to be used? 903 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,800 I I don't pick and choose. This is the neutrality part. 904 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,120 Like I love all of my children, but equally. 905 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:11,080 But yeah, we have like almost everything we were like out for. 906 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,720 In the wild for around like 3 1/2 months I guess. 907 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:21,760 And since then we go to around 40 networks, 30 something like 908 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:26,080 closer to 40 or already I think like couple of pre 909 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,240 confirmations, couple of data availability, 3 or 4 fast 910 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:39,280 finality or two Oracle networks, one or two agent based network 911 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:46,080 for inference, ZK ecoprocessors, the couple of thresholds, couple 912 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:51,000 of no one I think fully homomorphic encryption network. 913 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,440 Yeah, like basically everything a role kit for roll ups on even 914 01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:03,640 on Celestia like several TASI for, for substrate based like 915 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,960 roll up dual deployment and network deployment, like several 916 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,560 SDKS. Yeah, we have basically every 917 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,720 every primitive in terms of the centralized networks like 918 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,680 already on us, they were like building on us Excited for all 919 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,680 of them, but more excited for the ones that launched before 920 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,840 2025. Like this is the the the only 921 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,000 metric that I can score people over. 922 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,960 Like are you going to be actually launching before before 923 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,440 the end of the year or like or after? 924 01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,600 Because that each, each network that launches helps the others 925 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,320 to to see the light and to get the optimization. 926 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,560 Because if you consider currently like the 0 AV s s or 927 01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,400 networks are actually launched. So if you're considering being 928 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,040 launched centralized, being going through the centralization 929 01:01:55,040 --> 01:02:01,640 journey alone with like your team only or launching with 930 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,920 shared security, it's not an like easy decision. 931 01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,920 But the more networks actually launch, even the Avs is the 932 01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,600 more, the more of like the when they start launching, the more 933 01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,840 of them launch into full production, the more you'll have 934 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,920 the menu that you can select from and get inspiration from 935 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:25,080 and to actually like to sway you in the direction of shared 936 01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,200 security. And that's what we want. 937 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,800 So you just mentioned timeline. So what are what are the main 938 01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,000 milestones that are coming up with Symbiotic? 939 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,360 Yeah, We're going to launch Mainnet soon, getting toward 940 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:44,320 that, towards that for a while. We just wait for networks to be 941 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,840 ready because we don't want anyone to rush in and it's going 942 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,800 to be full production. So like every functionality 943 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,520 available from our side, yeah, like this is going to be a big 944 01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,160 one. And then, yeah, to scale up, 945 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:04,760 Orient teams better Orient help validators to and operators to 946 01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,840 be as efficient as possible with this new paradigm. 947 01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:13,080 And yeah, like overall coordination work, we have 948 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:18,520 multiple teams building resolvers, teams building SDKS, 949 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,920 teams building frameworks for networks to reuse. 950 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:27,840 So yeah, after mainland. And like we're currently getting 951 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,080 to a point where the actual good questions are starting to be 952 01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,440 started to be asked. Not the conceptual ones, but 953 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,360 like actual UX questions like what's the local period that I 954 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,840 need to use like to get the most alerties? 955 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,520 What's there? I don't know like how do I 956 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,360 approach validator? Like validators? 957 01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,520 I don't want to talk to like each one of them, other 958 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,760 consortiums of them are the groups of them I can reach out 959 01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,000 to. Like I, I don't want to, to have 960 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:56,760 like 12 chats. I want to have one. 961 01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,920 Is it possible for me get the best like validator set 962 01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:01,680 available for with just one chat? 963 01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,600 And like we are getting to optimization part of it because 964 01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:10,240 like there are a lot of like concept work, but in terms of 965 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,280 like, do we need that at all? Like the, the, the a lot of 966 01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,680 questions that people ask when they don't have an actual 967 01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,320 problem to be solved immediately for networks, it's like it's 968 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,240 applied, like really applied. They, they want, they just want 969 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,240 them like a, OK, how do I get the best operator said that, 970 01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,040 that investors are getting off my back immediately. 971 01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,480 How do I get to the the stake amount so I can like launch 972 01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,240 protocols without and tell them that they have enough support? 973 01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:42,160 How do I get the the the best like the the the text tag that I 974 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:46,400 can immediately use and like develop as little as possible to 975 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,840 get to the product market feed that I can actually like start 976 01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,880 testing. Cool, Excellent. 977 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:55,240 Well, thank you so much, Michelle. 978 01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:57,200 It's been it's been really great to have you on. 979 01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,280 I'm excited. I think it's, I think it's, I 980 01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,040 think Semioli is going to give rise to a tremendous amount of 981 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:09,240 like interesting experiments around staking around how to 982 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,520 operate, how to launch, how to operate, how to secure 983 01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,720 decentralized systems. And yeah, I'm, I'm super 984 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,960 thrilled to see like what, what's going to come out of 985 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,880 that. So thanks so much for coming on 986 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,880 and thanks so much for, yeah, giving us this update. 987 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:27,600 Thank you. Yeah, interesting, interesting 988 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,480 questions. Thank you for that. 989 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,560 I am super happy to be here and super happy to spread the 990 01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:34,720 mission and ideas.