1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,800 Hello and welcome to episode of the show which talks about the 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,000 Technologies projects and people driving decentralization. 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000 And the blockchain revolution. My name is Brian Crane and I'm 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,200 totes. Dave, Amir Helene, and he's the 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,000 founder and CEO of helium. Helium is using kind of like Q 6 00:00:30,008 --> 00:00:35,500 crypto networks to build out the wireless network, like very cool 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,100 and really excited to dive into that with him before we go into 8 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:42,200 that, just a brief word from our sponsors. 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,900 The first of all, we have kenosis safe and always to save 10 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:48,100 is smart wallet, that allows you to control your digital asset in 11 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:50,000 a much more granular. 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With full browser extension 24 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:34,600 basically next week, so go check it out. 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,800 It's tell you that cash. And with that, let's get to our 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,800 episode about helium. So I feel like, listening a 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,400 little bit, like some podcast with you and like learning a 28 00:01:45,408 --> 00:01:48,200 little bit about helium. And I think there's like so 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,700 much. That's like, really fascinating 30 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:54,400 there to dive in. But also, one thing where I was 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,700 like, continuously, like I don't really like understand this. 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,900 And with, After Ike, maybe dive in, if you go like straight 33 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:07,600 there is like what's it like wireless network and like why is 34 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:09,900 why your wireless networks? Interesting? 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,700 Yeah, good question. I mean, helium definitely sort 36 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:17,100 of an odd one in the crypto space like compared to others 37 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:20,800 because we were doing the sort of physical world thing, and 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,900 that's when all the only one. But but certainly one of only 39 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:27,700 very few, you know, that the mission for helium really 40 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,300 started way before our crypto Adventure, like we started the 41 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:35,400 company to try and build basically, a big sensor Network, 42 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,600 right? Like we wanted people to be able 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,600 to connect sensors to the internet and do it really 44 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,200 cheaply and not have to For cell phone plan and be able to run on 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,800 batteries. And, you know, the kind of stuff 46 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,000 that people describe as the internet of things. 47 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:50,800 And that was sort of the mission objective of the company. 48 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:54,800 And it took us, you know, a few years of sort of trying 49 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,000 different approaches before we ended up realizing that sort of 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,100 decentralizing. The building of the network was 51 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,700 probably the best way to like, actually make that happen. 52 00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:04,600 Right? Like you want to build this sort 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:10,600 of global scale, very ubiquitous thing and this sort of like the 54 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:14,200 we'll approach has been many billions of dollars doing that. 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,700 Right? Which is what you see from, like 56 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:18,500 a traditional Telco. Whether it's AT&T, or Vodafone, 57 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,800 or orange, or whatever. And then the new approach, which 58 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,100 I think helium is sort of pioneered here is like, don't 59 00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:28,900 own the network, right? Like, let let the people build 60 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:31,400 the network and participate in the economics of it. 61 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,400 And that's sort of the approach that we started down in 2017 and 62 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,700 it's kind of where we are today. Now, I would love to maybe stay 63 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,100 a little bit on the even the prior question. 64 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:44,200 So you saying like, you know, an iot Network. 65 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,500 Why didn't it work for these sensors to connect with like why 66 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:54,400 are there particular I do use cases or, you know, is there a 67 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,100 particular scenario that you want to see established where 68 00:03:57,100 --> 00:04:00,200 like this is really crucial? Or did you just think it was 69 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,500 like a big underserved Market or like what's kind of that makes 70 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:07,500 that problem. So interesting, I think both You 71 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:12,700 know, at the time that we started the company we and I 72 00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:15,000 sort of mentioned this on another podcast like last week, 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,600 I think, but we actually happen to have a bunch of entrepreneur 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,300 friends that were building like connected Hardware products. 75 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:24,300 And that was a big part of like the Genesis of the company. 76 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:28,200 Was that you know, these guys had very specific problems that 77 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,600 they were looking to solve. Like one guy was building, you 78 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,400 know, connected baby monitors, kind of like a little baby 79 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,900 bracelet and one guy was building a people counter and 80 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,200 like You know. And so those are the kinds of 81 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,300 applications where you want to connect to the internet, but it 82 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:43,500 has to be really small and it has to be battery-powered and 83 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:47,200 has to be really cheap. And there's, you know, hundreds 84 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,200 or thousands, or Millions even applications that we've sort of 85 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,800 discovered over the years that are really, really interesting 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,800 that are impossible to serve. Some of them are like, obvious 87 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,900 like package. Tracking, at a granular level. 88 00:04:58,900 --> 00:04:59,900 Right? Like, if I wanted to know 89 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:02,300 specifically, like we're a package, is not just what truck. 90 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:06,500 It's on, you need kind of like a throwaway types. 91 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:08,500 Answer, right? It has to be like Ultra cheap 92 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:11,100 and Ultra small and run on like a coin cell battery or something 93 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:13,800 like that. And then, you know, it goes all 94 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,200 the way through to like, you know, Wildfire sensors, right? 95 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,200 Like, where I live up here in the North Bay Area. 96 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,400 Like, we have a lot of fires and, you know, the Department of 97 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,700 Forestry is someone that we've talked to about building 98 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:28,300 Wildfire sensors, for example, right? 99 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:30,900 Like, they want to know, when's when fires start, so they can 100 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:33,000 put them out more quickly before they become like a blazing 101 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,300 Inferno. And so, you know, the use cases 102 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,400 are Like extremely wide. And I expect to start to see 103 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,300 like consumer applications. Like so far iot is really been 104 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:46,000 focused on my business or Enterprise or commercial things 105 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 and usually related to like asset tracking or, you know, 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,300 environmental monitoring or something like that. 107 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:54,300 But now I think because helium exists in because as a sort of 108 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:56,800 broad scale, Network that people can use really, really cheaply. 109 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,800 We're starting to see other types of application like there. 110 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,500 Now pet trackers, you know, like dog and cat trackers on the 111 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:06,900 network like bike trackers, like portable GPS, trackers like, I 112 00:06:06,907 --> 00:06:09,000 think we're early and figuring out what the consumer 113 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,700 applications are. But I think there's going to be 114 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:13,700 plenty of them and it's going to be like even more on the 115 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:17,500 industrial and B2B side. Okay, cool. 116 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,000 And are there particular use cases that you're especially 117 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,600 excited about? I mean, the the the Wildfire one 118 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,100 is always been super interesting to me, just because it's 119 00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:29,800 frustrating that were in like 20 22. 120 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,200 And we still have this problem and like we literally can't do 121 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,300 anything about it, right? Like a fire starts and then it's 122 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:37,400 like a hundred acres and like people homes, get destroyed and 123 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,200 people die. And it's you know, just one of 124 00:06:40,207 --> 00:06:43,100 those things that if we had better like sensing of like, you 125 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:44,800 know, generally things will be better. 126 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,600 And as a result of fires. Get ready, bad air quality and 127 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,600 so like better air quality sensing is nice. 128 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,000 And, you know, there's just that I think the promise of iot was 129 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000 always supposed to be like, you know, if you had this universe 130 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,600 of sensors, like life would just be better in general like you 131 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,600 would you would know much more about literally everything you 132 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,800 came into contact with and I still find that to be a really 133 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,700 interesting sort of Universe of problems. 134 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,800 And then, you know, as you as you may know like helium is 135 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,500 also. Now venturing into other types 136 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:14,700 of wireless network, right? So even though it started as an 137 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:17,800 iot Network and still, Is, you know, predominantly and iot 138 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,800 network also, starting to move into things like cellular and 139 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,900 Wi-Fi, and I think really, the really, the discovery of helium 140 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:27,300 was that, like, you could actually incentivize building, 141 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:29,900 all kinds of wireless networks this way and iot just happened 142 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:32,100 to be the first one that we thought was the least. 143 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:35,000 Well, served or had the biggest sort of pain point. 144 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,700 And so when you say cellular because I was hearing, I think I 145 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:42,200 heard like an old podcast of yours where you were asked that 146 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,900 question and then you were like basically talking about my God. 147 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:49,300 That's really hard and like, I think you asked about five T. 148 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,800 So, how can you talk a little bit about, you know, how has the 149 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,800 network it will? When you say it's going to be on 150 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,900 the, it's starting to go beyond this iot sensors here. 151 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:03,800 I mean, if you think about what helium really is done. 152 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:09,400 It's really to to enable people to like become participants in 153 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,500 like Wireless infrastructure building, right? 154 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:15,200 The fact that it was an iot Network, kind of irrelevant to 155 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,300 some extent, right? Like, it was really, it was 156 00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:20,300 really more that we sort of hit upon the right, like, economic 157 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:22,900 design. And I, you know, I think making 158 00:08:22,900 --> 00:08:25,100 it easy for people to participate in the network from 159 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:27,700 sort of a user experience. Standpoint was really important, 160 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,100 right? Like most crypto mining or most 161 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:33,500 like iot gateways. They're not consumer-friendly, 162 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:35,400 right? Like if you try using an A Minor 163 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,100 or you try using like an iot Gateway, like they suck. 164 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:41,900 And so one of the one of the things that I think we did 165 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,100 really well at the start was trying to make this really easy 166 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,400 to use for consumers. Just like random people 167 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,200 basically, right? And so I think that was 168 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,000 important. But if you think about that sort 169 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,600 of extrapolating it out you could you could sort of do that 170 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,400 with any kind of network. Or I like the fact that we 171 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,800 started with iot was was you know, because it was a problem 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,300 that we were keen on solving that we thought was needed. 173 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:04,600 But very quickly, we realized and started getting inbound 174 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,600 demand for like. Well, what about, you know, 175 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,100 building a cellular network this way? 176 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:10,700 Rightly. Could you could you have people 177 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:14,300 deploy, you know, equipped like our device called a hotspot. 178 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:17,000 It's like a box about that big. And the question was like, what 179 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,400 if there was a cellular version of that? 180 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,500 Right? Good people become like, 181 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,000 miniature cell tower hosts, basically. 182 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,000 And, you know, there's a lot of things that have happened over 183 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,500 the last few years that have now made that possible like this, 184 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,900 unlicensed Spectrum now that you can actually use this. 185 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:33,000 So, Spectrum access at least, in the United States. 186 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,700 And most of the, most of the world is the problem, right? 187 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:41,200 Like the spectrum is owned by Verizon and AT&T and T-Mobile 188 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,100 and like these massive like corporations and the multiple 189 00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:48,400 billions of dollars spent on Spectrum, but recently the FCC 190 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,400 here in the states unlicensed this block of spectrum that they 191 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,300 call the Citizens Band Radio Service and that's a really big 192 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:57,300 deal because it means that we can operate a cellular network 193 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,000 without needing to spend multiple billions of dollars 194 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,200 buying spectrum and that's so that's a huge deal. 195 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,500 And the other part that makes it also huge deal. 196 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:06,700 Is that a lot of cell phones already support this rights. 197 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:09,900 If you have an iPhone 11 12, 13, or if you have any like modern 198 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:14,100 Galaxy Device or any modern pixel, like they already support 199 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:17,100 cbers as a frequency. Band, which is the other part of 200 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:18,800 the big deal, right? Like you need to be able to have 201 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,900 devices that can take advantage of the network. 202 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,300 And then the last part of the big deal is that there's now 203 00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:27,800 like open-source software Stacks that allow you to run like 204 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,500 miniature cell towers basically, right? 205 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,500 So Facebook has this project called magma and that's a big 206 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:35,700 deal to because usually, you know, getting it to the cellular 207 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:39,200 like infrastructure business, even the cheapest smallest, you 208 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,900 know, cell tower is going to be tens of thousands of dollars in 209 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:42,500 cost. Right? 210 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,000 And so now all of a sudden you've got like all of these 211 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,400 things that make it Supposed to have a 500 dollar box, be a cell 212 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,500 tower, but basically right. And so that's that's sort of the 213 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,500 next step of helium is like, okay, we figured out how to like 214 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:58,800 incentivize the building of wireless networks in general, 215 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:01,800 and now we're going to start doing it for other stuff Beyond 216 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,200 iot. And the next thing that we're 217 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,700 really focused on is cellular. That's really interesting. 218 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:11,900 And if cellular do you think in the future? 219 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:16,100 Will it be okay? I can get, you know, mobile 220 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:20,100 phone number Mobile sort of, you know relationship. 221 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:27,400 If you know Vodafone AT&T, you know where T Mobile or helium. 222 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,400 Will it be like that kind of thing, or will it be more sort 223 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,200 of like a backbone to other cellular Networks? 224 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:39,500 I expect it to initially be more on the sort of backbone side. 225 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:42,800 Like, you know, most, it's going to getting nerdy on like cell 226 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,800 networks for a second, but, like most cell networks, particularly 227 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,600 in the states are, like, actually really, like, comprised 228 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,700 of, like, multiple different networks that, that work 229 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:52,400 together. Right? 230 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,400 So, like, even though you're using your phone and it says, 231 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,800 AT&T in the corner, like a lot of times you're actually hopping 232 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,000 around between lots of different networks that AT&T just has a 233 00:12:02,008 --> 00:12:03,200 business relationship with right. 234 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,600 Like, especially if you go into like a Sarina or if you go into 235 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,900 an airport, or you go, you know, usually another company is 236 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:12,000 actually operating the cellular network inside those venues. 237 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,400 And then they're sharing the data back with AT&T and it's all 238 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,100 very seamless for the consumer Ryan. 239 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:18,400 Like for you, you're just on AT&T and like nothing has really 240 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,100 changed. So if you think of it in those 241 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:23,000 terms and you imagine how big helium could get as a cellular 242 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,400 network, it becomes like this gigantic like infrastructure 243 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,700 layer that I expect other networks to start to take 244 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:30,600 advantage of. So like we announced this with 245 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,800 Dish Network's recently. So dish is going to start 246 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,500 roaming their Customers on to the network. 247 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:39,000 And so that's a really big deal. But I expect it to sort of 248 00:12:39,008 --> 00:12:42,100 spread to other carriers to like, there's no reason why 249 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,900 every carrier wouldn't want to take advantage of like, you 250 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:47,400 know, a multiple hundred thousand node Network. 251 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,800 That's just sitting there that you could use. 252 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,800 I also expect new carriers to form. 253 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,200 Right? Like, I know that there are lots 254 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,600 of companies that are looking to build, you know, carrier 2.0 or 255 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,200 Carrier 3.0 in the same way that, you know, lots of like 256 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,100 financial institutions. Now exist, that sort of the 257 00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:04,900 modern-day version of a bank. Like there's lots of I've been 258 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:07,700 trying to do that and like helium becomes kind of a perfect 259 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,400 like infrastructure layer for them to use. 260 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,700 So they don't have to like deal with someone like Verizon and 261 00:13:12,700 --> 00:13:15,300 it's obviously significantly cheaper and it's going to be 262 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,000 like located in places where it's just not feasible to like, 263 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,400 put a cell tower for the most part. 264 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:20,900 So, it's going to be super interesting. 265 00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:23,900 It's a very different way to very different way, to build a 266 00:13:23,908 --> 00:13:27,000 network, and I think that's just going to result in a network. 267 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,400 That's just very different, right. 268 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,500 It's going to be much cheaper and it's going to be in the 269 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,000 coverage, is going to be in places that you wouldn't usually 270 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,900 expect. And it's going to be I think 271 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,500 fascinating to watch that evolved. 272 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:39,900 Wow, that's amazing. And then he will also be of 273 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:45,400 course, Global right by default. I mean, it gets hard, like the 274 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,600 u.s. Is really the only modern 275 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,100 country that has unlicensed. So because of pain on these tdrs 276 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,600 for that. Exactly. 277 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,600 And so I'm hopeful that like everyone is going to do some 278 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,800 version of this because it's really a big deal to be able to 279 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,300 run like, you know, open source. Cellular network is like a huge 280 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:05,200 is a huge thing. And so I'm Full that other 281 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,000 countries are going to start to do the same thing. 282 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,400 But for now like we're sort of focused on the US just because 283 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,800 we've, you know, that problem is already solved, right? 284 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,600 Oh, I didn't realize. I guess the question could also 285 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,000 be if there's like some sort of, you know doll or treasury or 286 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,100 something that could be then basically by Spectrum in other 287 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:27,400 countries, and I love that. You said it's been something 288 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,400 that I've been thinking about for a while. 289 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,200 It's like, you know, you see Dao's form to by the 290 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,000 Constitution or like the Wu-Tang album or or Whatever. 291 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,600 And and you'll be awesome to think of it in a, in in sort of 292 00:14:39,608 --> 00:14:42,300 the context of buying Spectrum. It's like the best possible like 293 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:45,300 people owned asset, right? It shouldn't really be owned by 294 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,600 like a company. And so, yeah, I love that idea. 295 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,400 And it's also an asset of like tremendous value that just keeps 296 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,400 going up in value. Right? 297 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,200 And so could totally see it. Unfortunately. 298 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,300 The entry fee is really high like, you know, multiple 299 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,900 billions or tens of billions, but it's possible. 300 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:02,600 It's doable. You know, I think it could be, I 301 00:15:02,608 --> 00:15:04,800 think it could be done. And I think once he lie, In the 302 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,000 cellular world is rolling. Like, it'll be a pretty good 303 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,200 like, example of like, here's what you could do in, you know, 304 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,000 Europe if we just banded together and like, bought enough 305 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,100 Spectrum to go do it. Yeah, and I mean, I think the 306 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:19,000 thing is, Right, we've an idea like that. 307 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,900 And if you look at something like Tesla, then I think you 308 00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:27,800 have to sort of like crazy improbable idea and you know, 309 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,700 because people were like, okay, but I, you know, I think this 310 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:33,300 has a chance and they buy up the stock and he has this like, 311 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:37,400 gigantic valuation it Especially this almost, you know, unlimited 312 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:43,900 stream of capital writer and I think crypto networks generally 313 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:48,200 often have they have that kind of dynamic, right? 314 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,000 And so, I think I would be pretty bullish. 315 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,100 That, you know, I mean, even see that right? 316 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,400 With something like Constitution dial, which is kind of crazy, 317 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,800 right? How people kind of come together 318 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,200 raise so much money for like this thing. 319 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,500 So I think we've something I expect from this would be like, 320 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,900 Ba, I can most people also. I don't have a good experience. 321 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:10,800 I think, with their cell phone providers, right? 322 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,700 They like, I really dislike. I think pretty much all of the 323 00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,400 ones I've had. Like, yeah. 324 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,100 I'm, it's one of the most interesting things about the 325 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:20,200 space actually is that, like, everyone hates like, the 326 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,200 incumbent plate? Like, you can't find anyone that 327 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,500 likes like their cell provider or their ISP or their cable 328 00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:29,200 provider, or like, you know, whatever, like it's like 329 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,500 universally, like every country, just hates these people. 330 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:34,400 Like there's something just sort of built it. 331 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,900 Even if the service is really good, you just are sort of like 332 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,800 you're supposed to hate them. And that's sort of what's 333 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,000 happened so that it's sort of an interesting position because it 334 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,100 makes it easier to sort of get in, right? 335 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,400 Like you don't you're not trying to convince people to like 336 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,500 abandon something that they love like they hate what they have 337 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:52,200 and they wish they were simple diminutive. 338 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:55,400 And so, you know, it makes it, it makes it just, it's 339 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,400 interesting. It's not a huge part of like the 340 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,300 way that we've thought about things, but it's something that 341 00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:03,400 I've sort of observed over the years of doing this and it 342 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,400 doesn't matter what country you're Oh, do you like everyone 343 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,900 always has the same opinion? So before you were, you know, 344 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,400 you talking about decentralizing this backbone and then you know 345 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,400 you have or like right now you work with carriers and then 346 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,500 maybe you could have new carriers that emerge, you know, 347 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:22,300 I guess just based on the helium network is there but it is the 348 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:25,500 carrier itself something that you can also provide a new 349 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:28,600 decentralized way. It's a great question. 350 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,000 I think so. I mean the hard part of the 351 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,400 equation is that like you've got to sort of interact with this 352 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,000 blockchain and you got to interact with like tokens and 353 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,500 stuff like that. And and you know, the UI, I 354 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,100 think we did a pretty good job of like improving the UI for for 355 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,600 doing that, you know, like our experience is like pretty good. 356 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:51,100 But you know, I still think you have a hard time when it comes 357 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,600 to like things like the Fiat on and off ramps, right? 358 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,000 Like getting into the ecosystem to like pay for things in Tokens 359 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,000 and, you know, regulation makes that really hard for like, 360 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,400 especially us companies that want to participate in that 361 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,100 world, you know, like being a, being a money transmitter or 362 00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:08,600 money exchanger is, is really tricky. 363 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,800 And so there are there are things to like think about that. 364 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,200 I think make the experience difficulty of like a fully 365 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,200 decentralized way, but I think you can get pretty close where 366 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,100 you don't really need like a specific entity to be your 367 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:26,200 carrier and especially, you know, Technologies like ECM now 368 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,200 also is a big deal, right? Like where you don't need a 369 00:18:28,208 --> 00:18:30,600 physical light piece of plastic, any more that goes into your 370 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,400 phone. You just scan a QR code, on my 371 00:18:32,408 --> 00:18:34,800 calf, on a modern phone and like, you're off and running. 372 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,600 And so, lots of things happening like at the same time that 373 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,400 really make this all possible. Now, for the first time, whereas 374 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,900 otherwise, it would have been like a nightmare to like, try 375 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,600 and tackle it even even just two or three years ago would have 376 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,100 been a nightmare, right, but now it's feasible and doable and I 377 00:18:51,108 --> 00:18:54,200 think we've already sold something like 20,000 cellular 378 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,200 hotspots already. And so that's that's already 379 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,800 starting to That's already starting to spread around the US 380 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,000 and I think he's going to start accelerating for the remainder 381 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,500 of the year. Amazing. 382 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:12,600 And then while we're at it, what about you know, things like the 383 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,700 Broadband or can you do the physical wire networks? 384 00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:22,900 Also you my expectation is that like technology is getting bit 385 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:27,600 good enough that you can do away with the cable part completely, 386 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,400 right? So like they're there are now 387 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,800 like enough interesting projects. 388 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,300 Whether it's like Facebook's Tara graph or theirs. 389 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:38,000 A company called Toronto, for example, that, you know, are 390 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,200 sort of working on this part religiously, right? 391 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,100 Like, how do I deliver like GB Broadband to the home? 392 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:47,100 Wirelessly in like some cost-effective way, right? 393 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:50,600 Where I don't need, you know, a million transmitters in a city. 394 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,400 I need like 50 and, you know, so I think that's going to change 395 00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:58,500 that. Kind of technology is going to 396 00:19:58,508 --> 00:20:02,000 change the way we think about, delivering Internet to the, he 397 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,300 doesn't need to be a cable like dug under the street. 398 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,400 Anymore, right? Like or overhead, it can be done 399 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,200 wirelessly now and I'm pretty confident that the technology is 400 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,800 like that actually works for that. 401 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Right? And so I think if you sort of 402 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,300 add the helium model into it, it becomes pretty interesting, 403 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:19,400 right? Because you give like a really 404 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,500 interesting economic model for wisps, right? 405 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,200 Like wireless internet service providers and there are some of 406 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,900 those already. It's just a difficult Market to 407 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,500 be in right now. What's the difference between a 408 00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:34,300 wisp in the normalize p.i.? Wisp delivers the internet 409 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:36,400 connection completely wirelessly, right? 410 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,500 So, there's no, there's no cable involved. 411 00:20:38,500 --> 00:20:40,600 Residence. Similar to like so much like 412 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:41,900 starlink, right? Like, starlink. 413 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:44,100 You're getting it from a satellite, but from a whisper, 414 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,700 you're getting it from, like, a transmitter, that's in the same 415 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,600 city, right? Like, it's somewhere nearby and 416 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,200 it is connected to the internet with like fiber or something 417 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,900 like that. But it, but now the technology 418 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,300 is pretty good where it doesn't have to be like a direct line of 419 00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:59,600 sight like it. I used to have to be like it can 420 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,300 sort of like travel through things. 421 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,300 And so it starts to become feasible that you could cover a 422 00:21:04,308 --> 00:21:07,100 whole city would like 50 of those devices or 100 of those 423 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,500 devices. And then all of a sudden you 424 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,100 don't need to be digging trenches and having cables 425 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:12,800 anymore. You can deliver like GB 426 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,400 Broadband to the home with like 50 transmitters in a city, if 427 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,300 they're if they're sort of spread out well, and so that 428 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,200 kind of stuff is awesome to me because That's like the worst 429 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,000 part of the internet ride. Like is that you, you can 430 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,900 decentralize all you want at the, a player like at the web 3. 431 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,200 So 2 part, but if you, if you haven't figured out like how to 432 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,500 like open access to the internet in the first place. 433 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,700 Then you're always stuck with with old business model of like 434 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,600 meta data, collection and privacy violations and like 435 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,000 advertising, right? Like you can't get away from it 436 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,100 until you fix that part of connecting to the internet. 437 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:51,500 So for me personally, like, I'm I'm fascinated by by that part 438 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,900 and I think, in general the internet is very hostile towards 439 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,800 privacy stuff. You know, like if you try and 440 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,300 use a VPN, I'm like identifying like crosswalks and like, you 441 00:22:01,308 --> 00:22:05,200 know, bicycles every 10 seconds on the capture things. 442 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,800 And so, you know, just the internet is like not designed 443 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:12,400 for like vpns and like privacy. And so, I'm optimistic that 444 00:22:12,408 --> 00:22:13,700 that's going to change over time. 445 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:17,000 And I think decentralizing, like access to the internet itself is 446 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,200 a very big and important part of that equation. 447 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,300 Yeah, that's was exactly what. Came up in my mind, when you 448 00:22:24,308 --> 00:22:26,200 were speaking before I think, has you. 449 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,200 Yeah, that is always one thing, right? 450 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,800 Up bothers you sort of, as a Cryptid users are, okay, you can 451 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,300 use all those things. But, in some, in some way, it's 452 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:35,600 a feels you're going through is kind of tight, right? 453 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,500 Which is connected, which is controlled by, this is P. 454 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:40,700 That like, I don't know who they are. 455 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,200 I don't know like what they can do. 456 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,000 And so I think then you have right, you've had a guess, a 457 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,100 bunch of projects that You know, I mean things like tour or then 458 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:55,700 you have things like maybe some people working on a 459 00:22:55,708 --> 00:22:58,000 decentralized or versions, right? 460 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,300 This is named thing and I don't know what's going on with that 461 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:05,500 now but there was a project called Orchid at some point, but 462 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:09,200 actually, I mean that you're the name thing kind of makes sense 463 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,800 to me for that any crypto transaction, but really you want 464 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,500 to have the, you know, more fundamental decentralization. 465 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:16,300 I think. So that sounds really amazing. 466 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,300 How yeah, it's um, it's one of the these things where like, you 467 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:23,300 know, as I was saying, like there's a bunch of like DV p n 468 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:24,700 projects. I think like Orchid is one of 469 00:23:24,708 --> 00:23:28,100 them and there's like a handful of others and but like I said, 470 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:30,800 like the user experience of using a VPN is just not very 471 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,500 good. Like I go to Google and I'm now 472 00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:34,300 in like some other country, all of a sudden, right? 473 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,100 And like a Google is not useful for me anymore because like 474 00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:38,600 Google showed up in Arabic, right? 475 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,000 And I'm not using an Arabic keyboard and like, you know what 476 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,900 I mean? And so, and Everywhere You Go, 477 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,400 you've got to capture to solve like literally everywhere. 478 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,600 And so it's it's just the Experience of using vpns is bad 479 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,200 because the internet is bad. Right? 480 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,000 Like it depends so much on knowing where you are, where you 481 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,000 are and who you are that? Like everything is designed 482 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,100 around that those two, those two things. 483 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,500 And so even when you've got stuff like the vpns and the D 484 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:09,000 vpns, it's still not great for consumers, which is why it's not 485 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,900 like a huge, not a huge business. 486 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:13,000 The VPN provider, right? Like it's not. 487 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:16,100 Not like, consumers aren't clamoring to like be more 488 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:18,400 private online. And I think part of it is just 489 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,000 because It sucks as an experience and part of it is. 490 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,200 I think, just because users, just don't care that much yet. 491 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,900 But hopefully they, hopefully, they will. 492 00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:29,100 Right. So if you, you know, if helium 493 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:33,100 gets, you know, widespread, you know kind of succeeds mean what 494 00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,600 one of the issues is also that, in many places. 495 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,400 You don't have, you know, kind of open access to the internet, 496 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,600 you know, because you have like no firewall or they, they shut 497 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,900 down certain, you know, like sometimes he had countries shut 498 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:50,200 down Facebook or social media. Governments, if there are local 499 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,500 people using that too much too. Is this something where you 500 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:59,500 could build a much more kind of censorship resistant Network 501 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:04,200 that, you know, governments can't censor easily. 502 00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:09,300 I think it makes it harder. It sort of depends on the, like, 503 00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:15,600 level of like censorship, right? I mean, if you know, building 504 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,100 internet access using something like helium, makes it much more 505 00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:20,900 difficult for someone to shut down, just because there's 506 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:23,400 multiple sort of providers of the internet, right? 507 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,100 Like literally everyone in can become an internet provider, the 508 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:28,600 part that's still easy to shut down. 509 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,200 If you're like, a government is, is the sort of main backbone to 510 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,400 the internet, right? Like, people still need to 511 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,700 connect to the Core internet, somehow. 512 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:41,200 So, you know that, I don't know, it'll be interesting to watch 513 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,900 how that evolves. That's still very much like 514 00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:46,400 cables under the ocean kind of, you know, infrastructure like 515 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,500 there isn't, there isn't a great way to like, get back to the 516 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,300 internet yet, but it's like truly censorship resistant. 517 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,000 So, yeah, I mean, I think it improves the situation, but I 518 00:25:55,008 --> 00:25:57,900 don't think it like, it's a perfect solution to like, I 519 00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,400 don't know, like Iran, like turning off, like all access to 520 00:26:00,408 --> 00:26:02,500 the internet or something. Like I don't know that you can 521 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:06,000 really get around that yet, but there's in Interesting stuff. 522 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,300 I mean like you could deliver it from the sky, you know, like 523 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:11,300 people like Google was doing this with balloons. 524 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:13,000 And, you know, starlink is obviously not doing it with 525 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000 satellites and it's, you know, there was become much, much 526 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,900 harder to like sensor, right? Like I don't like, how are you 527 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,200 going to like, stop access to a satellite? 528 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,400 And Riley could have to go around and find every satellite 529 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,100 dish and take it out. Right? 530 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,800 And so stuff is heading. I think in the right direction 531 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,200 where there are more and more options and like helium is one 532 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,100 of those tools. I think that will help in that 533 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,700 Fight. Pretty sad about this. 534 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:39,700 That is something that's very needed. 535 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,600 Yeah, I mean, helium is grown as grown like, like I think what 536 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,200 we've seen over the last like two and a half years of helium. 537 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,900 Existing is it's grown from like zero hotspots to like 600 538 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:53,800 thousand hot spots with another like three million on back 539 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,600 order, you know, something like 75% of the u.s. 540 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:01,700 Zip codes has access to helium now and like, you know, it's 541 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:04,000 grown at like an insane Pace, right? 542 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,800 And so I think I think what It's shown, is that people want 543 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,200 something like this? Like they want some way to like 544 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,300 stick it to the incumbent like telcos. 545 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,600 They want some way to earn like passive income. 546 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,000 They want some way to like get involved in crypto, you know, 547 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,900 like there's a lot of things that came together at the same 548 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:23,300 time to make this interesting for people. 549 00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:25,400 And I like I said, I think we did a pretty good job of like 550 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,700 making the user interface like easy for people, which was the 551 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:31,300 other part of crypto that I think has traditionally been not 552 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,600 very good outside of like centralized services like 553 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,200 coinbase and stuff. That's all. 554 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,500 Improving, you know, like the wallets are getting better. 555 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:39,100 Like the apps are getting better, you know, like 556 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:43,800 everything is sort of improving. But yeah, I think helium has 557 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,000 done a phenomenal job. It's in, you know, I can't even 558 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,200 remember how many countries but thousands of like tens of 559 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,400 thousands of cities hundreds of countries, and I expect there to 560 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,100 be three or four million hot spots on the network over the 561 00:27:56,100 --> 00:28:01,500 next 24 months. One another way that I was sort 562 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:03,400 of like, thinking about helium a little bit. 563 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,700 That seemed interesting to me is, you know, Bitcoin. 564 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,600 You can also think of as it's this sort of economic it is 565 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,200 incentive system that has bootstrap. 566 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,600 Also, you know, kind of deployment of days, you know, 567 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,700 physical Network. Whether you have all these 568 00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:23,500 miners running this specialized machines, you know, that tend to 569 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:27,000 be maybe more larger facilities, right? 570 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,400 Because they took need to get cheaper. 571 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,400 Christie and diseconomies of scale there, but you know, you 572 00:28:31,408 --> 00:28:34,800 still have to, you know, massive investment in this, pretty 573 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,600 decentralized physical Network. And then here, we actually have 574 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,100 sort of the same thing, but with a different characteristic, 575 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:45,300 right? And it seems to be much more 576 00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:51,500 geographically distributed and you don't have this kind of you 577 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,100 don't have these economies of scale. 578 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:56,500 I think in the same way that you have like, Bitcoin mining. 579 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,600 So Yeah, I'm curious. Like what what do you think is 580 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,300 this significance of that? Or like what are some of the 581 00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:08,000 possibilities that that opens? Yeah, I mean, one thing that's 582 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,800 hard about helium and anything, like it is that unlike Bitcoin, 583 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:20,200 where where, you know, just sheer quantity of minors is good 584 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,000 enough, right? Like they could all be in the 585 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,300 same place. Even you know, helium has like 586 00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:28,700 depends on like very specific like geographic distribution, 587 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,600 right? Like a network that's in one 588 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,900 city is useful, but it's not as useful as a network that's in 589 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,800 every city or in every country. And so, But there are some 590 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,100 economies there. I mean, like, we're all the, all 591 00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:43,200 the hot spots on the network are using the same physical. 592 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,700 At least components, like, parts of the hotspot are all the same. 593 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,100 So there's some economies of scale that are occurring there 594 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:53,200 because, you know, vendors are all Bonnie similar parts and 595 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,500 those parts are getting cheaper, as they get as the volume 596 00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,000 increases, the supply chain over the last couple of years has not 597 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,100 been great, you know, because we because of covid and Chip 598 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,600 shortages and like everything, which is affecting like multiple 599 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,500 different. Is. 600 00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:10,700 But in general, you know, a lot of the components are shared and 601 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,600 I think as we move into cellular like that's even more true. 602 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,900 Like a lot of the chips come from like Qualcomm, for example, 603 00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:17,400 right? So like every vendor is buying 604 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,800 stuff from Qualcomm. And so, you know, you get the 605 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,900 same sort of economies of scale that as you would in a more 606 00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:25,000 centralized approach because everyone is using like 607 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,800 approximately the same kind of hard work. 608 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,200 And I mean, all of these hot spots, right? 609 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:37,600 They also have private key and ncos implicitly wallet. 610 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:42,400 Do you think that wallet? You know, these how do you think 611 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,400 I will have like usage beyond the kind of narrow function? 612 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,700 It hasn't any heating network and on how do you think that's 613 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:54,400 going to kind of integrate into, you know, people's digital 614 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,700 assets and how they manage them. Yeah. 615 00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:59,900 It's you know, Hot spots are kind of like nft. 616 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,500 He's really right. Like they are they have a 617 00:31:02,508 --> 00:31:07,900 private key and they are they are non fault fungible in a way. 618 00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:09,200 Right? Like they have sort of unique 619 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,800 locations and and unique characteristics that are 620 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,000 different. So I think it's interesting like 621 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,100 they're arguably like they're some of the first like physical 622 00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:20,600 world like nft s, right? And and that's kind of an 623 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,900 interesting idea. But the rest of the wallet 624 00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:27,200 management has all has all been done, you know, in the 625 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,100 traditional way, right? Like, there's a mobile app. 626 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,100 There's a, you know, you can use Ledger like, etc. 627 00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:32,300 Etc. So, I don't know. 628 00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:33,500 It's a good question. Actually. 629 00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:37,300 I haven't, I don't think we've thought about what you could do 630 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,100 at the edge there like that. Knowing that like, there are, 631 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,100 you know, three million sort of, private key wallet type things 632 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,200 out there that you could probably do something with. 633 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,000 I do think we're starting to have the conversation with lots 634 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,100 of different projects similar to what you're describing where 635 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:54,000 there's a bunch of like DVP and projects. 636 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,600 For example who are like, okay, we perfect if we could run our 637 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,700 VPN software on your Six hundred thousand hot spots because 638 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:03,200 that's, you know, a pretty massive like VPN network. 639 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,500 Although all of a sudden, right. So I think there are those kinds 640 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:09,000 of conversations that are sort of obvious where it's like, 641 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,200 okay, you've got this massive distributed network of nodes. 642 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,500 Like what else could you do with it? 643 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,400 Like it's good for a wireless network, but it might also be 644 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,900 good for a bunch of other stuff. And so I think we're going to 645 00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:19,900 start to see some like really interesting things come out. 646 00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:22,100 But the VPN one is like I said, always been interesting to me 647 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:27,300 because I'm always so interested in privacy and anonymity so that 648 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,500 one is always Something that's sort of close to my heart and I 649 00:32:29,508 --> 00:32:31,900 would love to figure out a way to like enable some sort of 650 00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:35,200 decentralized VPN running on on helium nodes because it's sort 651 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,800 of the perfect distribution of hardware for it. 652 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:41,000 I would love it. If you could, maybe dive a 653 00:32:41,008 --> 00:32:45,000 little bit more deeply into, you know, kind of like this idiom 654 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,800 Network. And like, how does the network 655 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,300 look like? So, you know, you've talked 656 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,600 about the wireless network, right? 657 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,600 And then you have to, you know, the cellular network right way. 658 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,600 She said, you know, different devices. 659 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,600 So can you talk a bit about, you know, what is the architecture 660 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,000 of the human Network? You know, what are the different 661 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,500 domain? Of participants in the system 662 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:14,800 and what are their roles? Yeah, so there's I mean I think 663 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,200 a few different ways to think about it. 664 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,000 So at its core, you know, helium is a layer 1 Block Chain. 665 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:25,000 So it's a completely sort of from scratch written blockchain 666 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,500 Network that doesn't build on top of anything else. 667 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,700 And most of that is because we started this in 2016 or 2017 and 668 00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:33,500 there really wasn't a lot to use back then. 669 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:37,000 Like you're either were building on top of a theorem which was 670 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,800 which we thought was going to be too expensive, even back then or 671 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,900 you were Forking Bitcoin or, you know, doing something like that. 672 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:45,800 And so we build something from scratch. 673 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,400 So at its core, it's sort of a layer one, like proof of stake. 674 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,600 Blockchain. There's 3,500 validators. 675 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400 Who are responsible for like, block, production, transaction, 676 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,900 verification and validation. They stake, 10,000 H and T, 677 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:03,100 which is the H. And T is the sort of native 678 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:07,900 token on on helium. So something like 35, 40 % of 679 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:11,000 the supply of H and T is staked in validators. 680 00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:14,300 Who run the network and then you've got the hot spot hosts 681 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:15,900 themselves. And I think the best way of 682 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:17,500 thinking about hotspots as they're kind of like a 683 00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:22,199 combination of a crypto Miner and a wireless access point. 684 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,600 Basically, like it's a it's a sort of Dual Purpose device and 685 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:29,699 the crypto mining part is done through an algorithm that we 686 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:33,199 call proof of coverage. And so it's, you know, we wanted 687 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,000 to try and really the problem that we're trying to solve was 688 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,600 like, how do you build the network at the star drive? 689 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,000 Because there are a lot of devices to use the network. 690 00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:43,300 Work yet when you're when you're building and if there are none. 691 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,000 So you've got to kind of build it first and figure out how to 692 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,699 build it and in the physical world application. 693 00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:52,199 Like the hard part is like, how do you prove that? 694 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,900 There's actually any hardware? And like, how do you prove that? 695 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,000 Any of it is real. Like, how does the blockchain 696 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,300 know that there's real, There's real access points out there. 697 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,300 So we built this algorithm called proof of coverage where 698 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:07,900 hotspots transmit these encrypted data packets, 699 00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,000 wirelessly and the range of a hotspot is extremely large. 700 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,300 Grates on the order of the worst case. 701 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:15,000 It's about a mile and in the best case. 702 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,400 It's like a hundred miles, you know, these hot spots transmit. 703 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,300 This is sort of encrypted data back and forth with each other, 704 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:25,500 like the sort of challenge protocol and the hotspots earn 705 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,300 hnt for this this work that they do, right? 706 00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:30,100 Like the sort of proof of coverage is the equivalent of 707 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:33,000 our of proof of work in Bitcoin, or something, in our, in our 708 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,700 world and the hot spots are rewarded differently, right? 709 00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,000 So if you're creating like a big coverage area, you know, for 710 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,800 hundreds of miles because you you're on top of A cell tower or 711 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,000 something. Then you earn more than someone 712 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,100 who just has it in their window home, you know, because you're 713 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:48,900 trying to build a build a network. 714 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,500 And so that's sort of the those are the two sort of host 715 00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:53,200 characteristics of the, of the network. 716 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,600 And then the other side is users, which are, which are 717 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,100 people actually using the network. 718 00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:00,000 And so, those those today are mostly companies and so their 719 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,000 companies like Salesforce and Volvo and Costco and Toyota and 720 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,200 like companies that actually run sensors on the helium network 721 00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:10,700 are the other sort of participant in the network and 722 00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:13,700 they They have to spend each and T in order to actually use the 723 00:36:13,707 --> 00:36:16,900 network or it and that, that money goes to the that agency 724 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,500 goes to the to the hotspot hosts for those are, you know, those 725 00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:22,300 are sort of the main three actors, you've got like 726 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,800 validators, hotspot, hosts and users are really like the three 727 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,900 characteristics in the system. And then when you start to think 728 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:32,100 about like other types of wireless network, it will work 729 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:33,300 this, the kind of the same way. Right? 730 00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:36,400 Like, you'll have cellular hotspots that participate in 731 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200 cellular proof of coverage. And then their cellular users, 732 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,000 which will be, you know, mobile phone. 733 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:44,400 On people mobile phone networks, you know, things like that. 734 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,100 So every type of wireless network will have it the same 735 00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:49,300 sort of characteristics where they're sort of someone on the 736 00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:51,300 supply side like the host. And then there's someone on the 737 00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:54,700 demand side, which will be two users and it sort of will depend 738 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:57,100 on the type of network as the like who those people are. 739 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:03,000 Proof of coverage, are there. You know, how secure is this? 740 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,000 Are they like attack scenarios that somebody can spoof things 741 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,700 and trick hotspots. Yeah. 742 00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,600 I mean, it's an ongoing amount of work, right? 743 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,200 I mean, as hnt is become valuable in the network has 744 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,400 become valuable, you know, like the attack surface is increased. 745 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:21,700 Right? Like people have figured out 746 00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:26,000 ways to sort of trick the system or take advantage of like 747 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,800 characteristics of the system that were Either like bugs in 748 00:37:29,808 --> 00:37:31,900 the first place or just things that we didn't think about at 749 00:37:31,908 --> 00:37:36,000 the time or just really sort of characteristics of the fact that 750 00:37:36,008 --> 00:37:38,800 the network has sort of evolved and gotten big and valuable. 751 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,000 So like one example, we, you know, we just are in the process 752 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,700 of like fixing this thing where if you happen to have like a lot 753 00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:50,100 of hot spots offline near your hot spot, then you get 754 00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:52,900 challenged in proof of coverage more than you should. 755 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:55,800 And so people have figured this out and you know, have started 756 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,100 to take advantage of the fact that like if they can find like 757 00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,300 a spot with Like a bunch of offline hot spots, they can put 758 00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,200 their hot spot there and like make a bunch more money. 759 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,300 And so, you know, you're constantly it's a very big and 760 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:08,900 complicated project. Like there's a lot of pieces, 761 00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:12,500 all of them are built from scratch For Better or For Worse. 762 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,600 And so, you know, it's a constantly sort of evolving 763 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,400 process to sort of find these problems and improve them and 764 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,700 fix them and sort of think about the future of it all. 765 00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:25,000 And I think one of the great thing that's happened is that 766 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,100 the helium Community has gotten bigger and more active, right? 767 00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:31,000 So a lot of this Comes from the community itself rather than 768 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,900 from the core development team and I think ultimately what you 769 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:34,300 want. Right? 770 00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:36,500 Like with the project at this scale like you want a very 771 00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,000 active and involved community and that's, you know, that's 772 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,000 kind of what we've ended up with. 773 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,100 So, so, yeah, it's certainly not perfect but by any means, but 774 00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:45,900 it's heading in the right direction. 775 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,100 And then you see this as kind of like 16. 776 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:54,600 So for example, AT&T you would use that same token for the 777 00:38:54,607 --> 00:38:58,400 wireless network and for the cellular network, and it's 778 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,200 basically like a single token. Yeah. 779 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,200 I mean, we're right now this there's sort of two tokens 780 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,400 really in the system, right? There's there's hnt which is the 781 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,100 main token that you earn for being a hotspot host. 782 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:14,500 It's the thing that you see, you know, being being exchanged. 783 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,500 But if you want to use the network, there's Second token 784 00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:21,400 called the data credit and that's kind of like a stable 785 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,400 coin of some kind, right? Like it. 786 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,200 It is fixed in value relative to the dollar. 787 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,800 Right? So it's always point zero, zero, 788 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,900 zero, zero one dollars and the nice thing about that system is 789 00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:34,800 that it's very predictable and cost. 790 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,200 In terms of how you use the network. 791 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,000 Like it's always going to cost you the same amount of like US 792 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,900 Dollars. And the way that you acquire 793 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:44,600 data credits is by destroying hnt, right. 794 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,400 So, if you want H, if you want data, The credits, you have to 795 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,200 take H and T and like burn it and the ratio of that changes, 796 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,600 right? Because ancient he's value is 797 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,700 fluctuating. And so, you know, depending on 798 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,900 how much AT&T is worth, when you burn one hnt, you end up with a 799 00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:59,600 different amount of data credits, depending on what the 800 00:39:59,607 --> 00:40:02,700 value of H and T is at the time, but it's a neat system because 801 00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:04,700 it solves, one of the biggest problems for like utility 802 00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:08,100 networks, which is how do you make it predictable for users? 803 00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:09,900 Right? Like if you, if you use the 804 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:12,600 actual like native token, and the value of the Native token is 805 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,200 like fluctuating wildly. You know, one day it might cost 806 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,200 you like a dollar to use the network and the next day it 807 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,800 might cost you like a hundred dollars, right? 808 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,100 And so we had to figure out a way to like make it stable and 809 00:40:23,107 --> 00:40:26,500 predictable and and having data credits kind of act as a stable 810 00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:30,100 coin was was the way to do that. So it's a really neat system and 811 00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:33,900 it's worked well because it reminds people of like cell 812 00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:36,600 phone minutes or airline miles or like something that they're 813 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,800 something that they're really used to. 814 00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:41,800 I think we have this system right in the end. 815 00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:44,800 The interesting amazing thing, right? 816 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,800 Is also that you have this, you know, the essentially owned 817 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,200 Network. So, of course, at that point, 818 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,600 you know, governance also becomes interesting. 819 00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:59,200 So how do you how this agent T. How does the network governance 820 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:02,700 work today? And how do you see that evolving 821 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:07,300 in the future? So there is a sort of 822 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:11,500 improvement proposal process that we borrowed from Bitcoin 823 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:15,400 called the hip. And today, pretty much anyone 824 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,600 can create a hip, right? Like, you can sort of propose, 825 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,400 whatever, whatever it is that you want. 826 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:23,800 And there's a voting process that is weighted using H and T. 827 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,100 So people vote on whether they like these proposals or not. 828 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,100 There's a lot, there's heat, there's many, proposals for 829 00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,700 like, how to improve the proposal process or like the 830 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:35,200 proposal process should be. The governance process should be 831 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,000 different. The voting process should be 832 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,100 different. Like everyone has their own 833 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:39,500 opinion about how this should work. 834 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:42,000 And I think, you know, helium is somewhat unique in that. 835 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,300 It has sort of a different set of constituents than traditional 836 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,000 Block Chain networks. And so that poses like a 837 00:41:49,008 --> 00:41:52,800 different kind of challenge. But yeah, I mean again, I don't, 838 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:55,400 I'm not, I don't think any Block Chain network has figured out 839 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,600 governance. It's at all, like, in any 840 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:58,500 reasonable way. Right? 841 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,700 Like, if you look at Bitcoin core, it's kind of like gate 842 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:03,900 kept by. Whoever the Bitcoin core like 843 00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,300 me. Tributaries are and GitHub and 844 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:08,400 the serum Foundation kind of decides what to do with the 845 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,100 theory. Mm, and you know, the coins that 846 00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:16,600 use like weighted Stakes, like are dominated by whales who own 847 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,500 all the currency, you know, so none of it is like perfect but 848 00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:23,000 there's the again a lot of like really good suggestions and on a 849 00:42:23,008 --> 00:42:25,300 lot of good proposals on like how to improve the governance. 850 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:30,100 But but today it's sort of the steak waited process and we've 851 00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:32,700 actually had a lot of like, great Improvement. 852 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:34,000 Proposals come through the community. 853 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,400 That have been implemented. I think we're starting to go 854 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,300 hard now. Is that the complexity of like 855 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:40,300 actually writing the code is quite high. 856 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,000 So to implement any of these changes like takes a lot of like 857 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,200 engineering work and so the sort of Engineering Group or the 858 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,800 engineering side of the community needs to grow as well. 859 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,600 Otherwise, you just sort of passing proposals that can't 860 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,900 believe can be implemented because there's no one, you 861 00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:57,800 know, there's no one who has the bandwidth to implement them. 862 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,500 And so that's sort of the next evolution of helium. 863 00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:03,600 I think is that the engineering side of the community will need 864 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:04,900 to grow. And actually, start 865 00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:08,100 participating, in, in writing code against the project. 866 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,400 Yeah, that is also I think a hard thing to do in this kind of 867 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,500 decentralized, right? Where even today I'm in most 868 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:22,400 blockchains, you tend to have you know, and Main development 869 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,600 team that kind of toss the work. Yeah, definitely can be a 870 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,300 challenge, right. When there's a disconnect 871 00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:30,400 between proposals people make and then you know, the team that 872 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,500 actually builds stuff. Yeah, and I think it's, you 873 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:38,200 know, it's an interesting problem, right? 874 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,600 Because you The team can only do so much, right? 875 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,200 And so, we have like a core development team already has 876 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,300 like a very massive backlog of like major issues and problems 877 00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:50,900 and improvements that it's working on. 878 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:54,700 And so while it's great for people to make proposals on 879 00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:58,200 improvements that they want to see, you know, it's always, it's 880 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,500 not always reasonable to expect that. 881 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,200 The core development team is just going to shift their 882 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,900 priorities to like work on that proposal, right? 883 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,200 And again, I think every every project has this problem until 884 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,400 the engineering community. Leti for that project gets big 885 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,300 enough, right? And then and then, the problem 886 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:13,900 starts to get solved because there's enough, like, 887 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:16,200 engineering resources to, like, actually work on this stuff. 888 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,900 But, yeah, I mean, not sure what to really say about it or do 889 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:24,000 about it other than to continue to like try and Foster more of 890 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,500 that, like that the helium Foundation, or the actually has 891 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,700 a bunch of Grant sort of open for this kind of stuff. 892 00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:33,400 So there's, you know, incentive for people to start doing some 893 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,100 of this work. But, yeah, I mean, Engineers 894 00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:38,700 always hard to come by and, you know, the best ones are usually 895 00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:39,600 busy. Something. 896 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,400 So trying to sort of attract them to new projects is always a 897 00:44:43,408 --> 00:44:44,700 challenge. I mean, to be honest. 898 00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,000 I don't think there's any Block Chain that has sort of figured 899 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,300 that out right because in the end you have that Bitcoin each 900 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,100 area where this actually isn't that kind of proposal process 901 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,100 and then so I don't think there's any blockchain where 902 00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:01,500 you're at the stage. I mean, it's also coordination 903 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,800 problem of like, you know, how can you get potentially a 904 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,400 decentralized governance like, you know, manage software 905 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,300 development. Yeah, and it's hard. 906 00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:15,000 I mean I think Bitcoin has this problem like in a severe way, 907 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,500 right? Like there's no there's no like 908 00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:22,300 if you're a distributed system / blockchain engineer your highly 909 00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:27,100 incentivized to go work on like Solano or Avalanche or polka dot 910 00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:29,200 or you know, because those guys have like, massive treasuries 911 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,900 are going to pay a lot of money to go to go do it. 912 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:34,700 Whereas Bitcoin doesn't really have that built-in right? 913 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:39,200 Like there's no real Financial incentive to work on bitcoin and 914 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,900 Makes it hard if people have bills to pay and like lives to 915 00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:43,800 live. And, you know, you can't just 916 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,000 work on on, on Good Vibes, you know, it's like, these people 917 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,400 happen to, like, make money. And that that's, that's a 918 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,300 challenge. I think in all of these systems, 919 00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:56,500 and mostly I've seen it solved through like grants, you know, 920 00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,500 so like, they'll be specific problems that a project is 921 00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:01,800 looking to solve and like, will offer a sort of a grant, in 922 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,900 order to solve that problem and that hopefully, that sort of 923 00:46:03,908 --> 00:46:07,800 Spurs the ecosystem. But yeah, I agree with you. 924 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,100 I think it's generally like an Solved problem. 925 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:12,800 And like the core engineering team is sort of always the core 926 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,500 engineering team. But yeah, I hope I'm hoping that 927 00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:18,500 will change over time because it's the only way that these 928 00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,700 things really will scale. Like you can't depend on a 929 00:46:21,100 --> 00:46:23,300 single team. It's just, it's too much work 930 00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:27,500 and too fragmented. And is there also a kind of 931 00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:30,900 community pool or, you know, mechanism where the community 932 00:46:30,900 --> 00:46:34,400 uses governance to directly from work? 933 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,000 We don't really have that today, but it's something that I would 934 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,500 definitely like to see. And I think there are some good 935 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:45,300 examples of other other projects that have done a good job of 936 00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:46,900 that. And so, yeah, I would love to 937 00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:48,500 see see more of that going forward. 938 00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:51,000 But today, the, the sort of Grants are managed by the 939 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,900 foundation team, and they sort of decide how that goes and take 940 00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:57,600 input from the community on, on how to do it. 941 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,400 And how do you think about the interoperability? 942 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,600 So, do you see helium? Yeah, how do you see it? 943 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,900 Interoperating with all the blockchain. 944 00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:08,800 So the smart contract ecosystems. 945 00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:13,500 Yeah, it's a thing that I wish was it's one of the downsides of 946 00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:16,000 building your own own thing, you know, like in. 947 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,700 And at the time, I don't think there was a lot of alternative, 948 00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:20,100 like we sort of, have to do it that way. 949 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,600 But I would love for hnt to be sort of a participant in like 950 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,900 the defy ecosystem, for example, and that's not really happening 951 00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:31,100 today. And so there are a few groups 952 00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:34,400 working on Bridges and wormholes to other chains. 953 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,200 So, there's there's a group working on an Al Gore and one as 954 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,800 a group, working in a Salon 01. I'd love to see something on 955 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,000 ethereum. So I liked it bridging approach. 956 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,100 I mean there's obviously been a few hacks and and attacks on the 957 00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:50,200 bridges over the years, which makes sense. 958 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,900 They're like high-profile with a lot of money and we'll see it, 959 00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:56,300 you know, over time, you know, maybe the sort of LED your part 960 00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:59,200 of helium moves to some existing layer one. 961 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,000 And, you know, the delete the layer to sort of remain on 962 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,400 helium as their own sort of miniature blockchains, like, 963 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,600 there's a proposal like that in the community right now, so 964 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,700 we'll see. But I think it's highly valuable 965 00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:14,700 for H and D to be to be part of that greater ecosystem and part 966 00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:16,300 of that broader ecosystem. For sure. 967 00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:21,000 Yeah, and I think that will fix a, you think of something like 968 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,000 this buying buying Spectrum idea, right? 969 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,200 I mean in essence that's like a huge financial transaction and 970 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,800 then, I think if you can do that, so as part of this crypto 971 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,500 Financial system that will, you know, unlock a lot of probably 972 00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:38,900 possibilities that, you know, you can't have if you're if you 973 00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:40,500 you don't have those connections. 974 00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:45,200 It's a challenge for sure. I mean, it's it again. 975 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,800 It's one of those like problems, right? 976 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,800 Like where everyone is sort of building their own blockchain 977 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,400 with their own community. And you know, the sort of 978 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,700 bridging is supposed to be the solution to that. 979 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,200 I think, you know, what's hard still, is that none of the smart 980 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,900 contract. Block teams are really capable 981 00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:04,300 of doing something quite as complicated, as helium as a 982 00:49:04,308 --> 00:49:07,500 layer 2 or sort of on top of the, of those networks. 983 00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:10,400 I could just too much State and like, too much, too much stuff, 984 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:11,700 too. To try and manage. 985 00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:14,800 So I think that's part of what makes it difficult is that, you 986 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,400 know, you'd have to figure out some sort of combination where, 987 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,200 like, you know, you still have validators like running the 988 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,700 network, but The Ledger is on a different is on the different 989 00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:25,600 chain or something like that, you know, we're looking into 990 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,900 that kind of stuff and like I said, there's a few proposals in 991 00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,200 the community about how how we might want to do that. 992 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,700 So, yeah, it's something I'm personally quite excited to 993 00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:37,300 like, figure out how to do, but I think for now, like, it would 994 00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:39,900 probably be a bridge or a wormhole or like some, you know, 995 00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:42,200 some equivalent like I would be the best way to like make it 996 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,200 happen quickly. Yeah, I mean, I think that would 997 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,500 be a fine solution. Oh, yeah, you have things like 998 00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:52,700 ax law and Wormhole and I think they were fairly easily connect 999 00:49:52,900 --> 00:49:57,700 helium to, you know, all the all the block chains and I think it 1000 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,000 will be the best solution probably or you have things like 1001 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,800 iidc but that's more work to implement think. 1002 00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:10,600 Yeah for sure. I'm in India also see like 1003 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,000 enabling the deployment of smart contracts. 1004 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:20,000 Cleon helium as a Direction. It's possible. 1005 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,600 I mean there's a proposal in the community right now to sort of 1006 00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:25,700 basically have helium be sort of a network of networks right? 1007 00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:28,600 Where there's lots of different types of wireless network that 1008 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,200 live outside of the second layer. 1009 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:34,300 And so how that's implemented. I think remains to be seen but I 1010 00:50:34,308 --> 00:50:36,100 could see it. I could see it being possible. 1011 00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,700 But I think the purpose of the smart contracts would have to be 1012 00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:41,700 like quite precise. Like, I don't think there's a 1013 00:50:41,707 --> 00:50:45,100 whole lot of value and helium trying to be like another smart. 1014 00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:47,900 Contract blockchain is already like so many of them that that 1015 00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:50,700 are focused just on doing that. Then we'll certainly do it 1016 00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:54,000 better than we could. So I think if they were smart 1017 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,000 contracts would have to be like specific to a purpose, like 1018 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,700 deploying wireless networks, or deploying networks or deploying 1019 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:03,300 like distributed applications, like that that are networking 1020 00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:05,600 related or something very specific to like this sort of 1021 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,600 purpose of what helium is. Otherwise, I think you're in 1022 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,600 danger of just being another like Just like it. 1023 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,800 Like I oh too. Kind of reminds me of that. 1024 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,300 Right? Like now it's sort of like 1025 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,600 another is the back. It's like an avalanche clone now 1026 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,300 and they don't really know what distinguishes, something like IO 1027 00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:23,000 different Avalanche. And so I think you got to be a 1028 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,400 little bit careful about trying to just do it all because 1029 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,200 there's already, you know, there's already people that are 1030 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,300 already doing that. I'm going to do a better job 1031 00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:33,500 than we could. Yeah, that's that's a tricky. 1032 00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:35,000 I think that's a sort of tricky balance. 1033 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,000 I mean II can, I've worked a lot in the cosmos ecosystem and 1034 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,200 there. I think there's also a lot. 1035 00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:42,600 Of this that kind of balance, right? 1036 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,700 We have like you launch a chain and then he has certain 1037 00:51:45,700 --> 00:51:47,800 functionality and then, you know, maybe some people want to 1038 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,400 add things to the chain and then there's a question of case. 1039 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,600 This is like a governance process, which makes it very 1040 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,400 hard to innovate. Or if it becomes like a general, 1041 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,900 smart contract thing, then it again, has it comes away. 1042 00:51:59,900 --> 00:52:05,700 Maybe a bit from this being very purpose, specific and maybe also 1043 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:08,100 will have, you know, issues in terms of performance, right? 1044 00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:10,100 If there's too much other stuff running on there. 1045 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,100 Yeah, it's just you know, it's just it's not a problem that 1046 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:18,300 like helium is focused on like we're here to like help build 1047 00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,500 Network infrastructure in the decentralized way and not for 1048 00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:24,900 like minting and ftes or like building some sort of defy 1049 00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:26,000 platform or something. Right? 1050 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,000 Like there's already so many places to do that. 1051 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,300 And so I think to me, that would be, you know, if we went down 1052 00:52:31,300 --> 00:52:33,900 the smart contract path, like that, would, that would sort of, 1053 00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:37,300 we need to be its focus. What are the biggest challenges 1054 00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:40,600 that you see in the future? Yeah, it's good question. 1055 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,400 I mean, I think the thing that I probably worried about the most 1056 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,300 in the short term is is you know, as we add more wireless 1057 00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:49,900 network. So things like cellular and 1058 00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:52,600 Wi-Fi and stuff. Like making sure that the 1059 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,700 incentive model is like good enough, you know, because you're 1060 00:52:55,707 --> 00:52:58,400 going to start like Distributing hnt across like multiple 1061 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,200 different types of network. And so it's going to start 1062 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,200 getting more diluted than it is today where it's, you know, sort 1063 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,200 of whole going to a single type of network. 1064 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,400 And so that's going to be an interesting type of challenge, 1065 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,000 right? Like as, as the 5G Network 1066 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:17,000 grows, you know, it's going to be taking away rewards from the 1067 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,700 iot network, right? And so there's going to be a 1068 00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:22,700 little bit of competition like among networks, which may be 1069 00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,700 good. But may also be bad and so not 1070 00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:27,200 exactly sure how that's going to go. 1071 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,900 But that's that's definitely a concern that I have is a lot of 1072 00:53:30,908 --> 00:53:32,800 technical challenges that will face. 1073 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,000 I mean, I think helium is already the largest peer-to-peer 1074 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,600 Network that has ever been built and it's like 600,000 nodes on a 1075 00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:42,900 On a peer-to-peer Network. Like all the time is, I think 1076 00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:46,000 the largest ever and so there are all sorts of engineering 1077 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,200 challenges that come with that, that really only have been 1078 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,500 solved in theory. You know, like there's a lot of 1079 00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:53,900 theoretical writing about peer-to-peer networks at this 1080 00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:56,100 size. Not that many have actually done 1081 00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:58,100 it. And so there's that kind of 1082 00:53:58,100 --> 00:53:59,900 stuff. I think we have the right road 1083 00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:02,100 map already to sort of mitigate a lot of that. 1084 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:07,000 But you know just dealing with something at this scale is is a 1085 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,600 huge undertaking. I think we've started something. 1086 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,500 Five billion requests to the, to the API server over the last 1087 00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:16,500 month or something like that. And so, you know, it's had a 1088 00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:20,400 large scale where like scaling problem has become real, 1089 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,200 especially, especially, scaling problems, that don't have like, 1090 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,900 well known solutions that I think scaling web applications 1091 00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:29,500 is quite well. Understood scaling like 1092 00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:32,100 peer-to-peer networks is not really well understood. 1093 00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:35,600 And so there are you know, there just are challenges there that 1094 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,300 we're facing and working through. 1095 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,400 But overall. I think I worry about them less 1096 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,600 than Economic challenges. Yeah, I think I can see that as 1097 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:45,700 being a hard problem. Right? 1098 00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:50,500 Because in the end you're sort of using the expectation of the 1099 00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:53,700 future returns, maybe of the different networks to pay now, 1100 00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:57,300 but, you know, you don't know what those are like, can you 1101 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:02,500 like, what's the usage today? You know, are how much sort of 1102 00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:08,000 Cabo, you know how much business those the network do in terms 1103 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,100 of, you know, packages. It's selling to sensors or other 1104 00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:16,400 users. Yeah, I mean II think, you know, 1105 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,200 on the sensor side, one of the challenges, I think, with iot in 1106 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,700 general, is that like the market for you hasn't really existed 1107 00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:26,700 properly, because there really hasn't been any network for iot 1108 00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:28,900 stuff to really use like, on a broad scale. 1109 00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:33,800 Like most people who have sort of operated in iot have done it 1110 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,500 like in the confines of like they're building or in the 1111 00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:38,200 warehouse or like, you know what I mean? 1112 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,000 And so that they haven't really been many applications where you 1113 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,400 assume that there was a network that was kind of like, Like a 1114 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,000 cell network or a mobile network. 1115 00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:48,200 And so, you kind of like the hard part about helium in the 1116 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,800 iot space is that you're sort of bootstrapping both sides of the 1117 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,100 network at the same time. Like you're trying to build like 1118 00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:57,100 a big coverage Network and then you're also trying to like, get 1119 00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:00,300 people who are interested in iot or have problems or have like 1120 00:56:00,300 --> 00:56:04,800 applications to start building them and everything. 1121 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,800 When when Hardware is involved, is slow, right, liked it for 1122 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,100 someone to build a sensor application to build a hundred 1123 00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:13,600 thousand sensors. For example, is Always going to 1124 00:56:13,607 --> 00:56:16,200 be like, an 18 month job. Right? 1125 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,700 Like there's really not, at least, not from what I've seen. 1126 00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:21,600 Like, there's not a way to like shortcut that that length of 1127 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,400 time because you've got to like, you know, test the thing and 1128 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,500 certify it and you know, there's just so many steps required to 1129 00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:29,800 like actually make something work and then manufacture it. 1130 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:33,500 So that part is tricky. And so with the cellular 1131 00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:35,300 network, you don't have the same problem. 1132 00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:37,400 We have a slightly different problem, but there's a lot of 1133 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,700 end users and there's a lot of known applications like, you 1134 00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:42,800 know, there's multiple billion cell phones out there, right? 1135 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:44,800 And So, you kind of know who your users are. 1136 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,600 You don't have the same problem? You have a customer acquisition 1137 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,500 problem, but it's a different, you know, different type of 1138 00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:51,600 problem than you have in the OT universe. 1139 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:56,000 And so, yeah, so so it's, you know, it's definitely. 1140 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,200 It's definitely a challenge that requires a lot of patience 1141 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,400 because you've got to sort of everyone involved in helium has 1142 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,000 to sort of understand that the iot side of the network is going 1143 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:11,600 to take years in order for real usage to come because real usage 1144 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:12,900 is going to require Manufacturing. 1145 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,200 Lots and lots of sensors and just that process alone is 1146 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,200 always going to be like a couple of years long. 1147 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,000 Even once the problem is identified and solution tested 1148 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,200 and everything else. So yeah, it's slow and I you 1149 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,700 know, I think that's a part that I wish we knew how to make it go 1150 00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:32,000 faster, but I'm not convinced that there is not convinced that 1151 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,900 there is actually a way. So you talked a little bit about 1152 00:57:34,900 --> 00:57:38,700 privacy, but I would be curious about privacy specifically with 1153 00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:44,600 regards to like iot, I mean, and some level that You know, seems 1154 00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,400 a little bit scary to, right? Because if I serve already not 1155 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,200 so good. And then you also have like, you 1156 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,700 know, a lot more devices that are giving away, lots more data 1157 00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:58,200 continuously. Do you think it will be possible 1158 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,800 to have, you know, iot widely adopted, while you know 1159 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,700 maintaining or maybe even improving people's privacy. 1160 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,200 Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think the Privacy 1161 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:16,500 concern is different than sort of the big internet privacy 1162 00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:17,500 concern. Liked it to me. 1163 00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:21,700 The big internet privacy concern is more like, you know, an ISP 1164 00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:26,300 knows my browsing history and you know, no sort of everything 1165 00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:28,800 that I do on the internet at least at some level. 1166 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,300 There's definitely potential for a concern in the iot space or 1167 00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,400 like you have a lot of sensors all over the place. 1168 00:58:34,900 --> 00:58:37,000 They could, for sure could be used maliciously. 1169 00:58:37,100 --> 00:58:39,200 But that the sort of approach is a little bit different, right? 1170 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,800 Like it's not you're not really connected to the internet in the 1171 00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,600 same way. But yeah, I mean, I think, I 1172 00:58:44,607 --> 00:58:46,500 think we always have to be calling some of the fact that 1173 00:58:46,500 --> 00:58:49,400 like there's danger there, like people could track people 1174 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,300 without without their consent. So I think people have really 1175 00:58:52,300 --> 00:58:54,800 started to do that with like are tags, for example, rightly. 1176 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,800 They drop them in people's purses or in their car or 1177 00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:58,900 whatever. And all of a sudden you have 1178 00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:01,800 like a tracking device on someone that they don't know is 1179 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,600 there. And so I think you've always got 1180 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,600 to be worried about that kind of stuff, but it's probably not 1181 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,900 necessarily unique to iot. Look, thanks for watching 1182 00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:10,400 mirror. It's been really, really great 1183 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,900 to hear about UV mapping and he's like, just an amazing 1184 00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:16,700 accomplishment. I think to build this like, you 1185 00:59:16,707 --> 00:59:21,900 know, physical crypto controlled Network out and and I'm I'm 1186 00:59:21,900 --> 00:59:23,700 really excited about it. Like all the things that would 1187 00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:25,500 become possible with it. I think also that the 1188 00:59:25,500 --> 00:59:29,400 intersection between crypto applications and, you know, 1189 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,000 having a dis physical Network. I think will be very powerful. 1190 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,100 So yeah. Thanks so much for coming on to 1191 00:59:34,107 --> 00:59:35,600 me. Yeah. 1192 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:36,700 Thanks. Thanks for having me. 1193 00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,400 I'm glad you're interested and excited about what helium is 1194 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,400 doing and super excited to see to see what comes next. 1195 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:46,600 Cool. And thanks so much for your, 1196 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:50,900 thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1197 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:52,800 We release new episodes every week. 1198 00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:56,100 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1199 00:59:56,100 --> 00:59:59,200 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1200 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,400 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1201 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,400 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1202 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,400 epicenter dot TV, / subscribe. For a full list of places where 1203 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,000 you can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1204 01:00:11,008 --> 01:00:13,200 for the newsletter. So you get new episodes in your 1205 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,400 inbox as they're released. If you want to interact with us 1206 01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,000 guests or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on 1207 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,000 Twitter, and please leave us a review on iTunes helps people 1208 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,900 find the show, and we're always happy to read them. 1209 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,400 But thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.