1 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,900 I am the best at what you do and you're listening to epicenter. 2 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:18,800 The podcast will reading through crypto Founders. 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,600 Builders and thought, leaders. On this show, we dive deep. 4 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Learn how things work, at a technical level, and we fly high 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,000 to understand Visionary, Concepts, and long-term trends. 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,500 If you like epicenter, the best way to support us is to leave 7 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:31,200 your review. An apple pie cast, and if you're 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,800 on a Mac or iOS device, the easiest way to do that is to go 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,900 to epicenter rocks / apple. And if you're new to the show, 10 00:00:37,900 --> 00:00:41,500 be sure to subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you 11 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:44,100 listen. Today we have something special 12 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:46,900 for you. We have a host Roundtable 13 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:50,900 discussion where Brian Federica Sunny mayor? 14 00:00:50,900 --> 00:00:56,500 And I are going to reflect on what happened in the last year 15 00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:59,500 and also make some predictions about where we think things 16 00:00:59,500 --> 00:01:01,900 could go. From here, this is something 17 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:06,300 that you guys are listeners have asked us to do more frequently 18 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:10,100 and it's been hard to find the time to do these. 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,900 These hosts round tables, but I can promise you one thing we're 20 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:16,000 going to do them more often, we're going to try to do them 21 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,200 once a quarter and if not at least twice a year because we 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,700 really like doing it every time we do these, we have a great 23 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:26,700 time and this was no exception. So in case you haven't noticed 24 00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:29,800 there's a pretty significant Bull Run happening right now as 25 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,100 I record this Bitcoin is somewhere around forty thousand 26 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:37,100 dollars and ether. Is it about 1,200? 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,000 So that is going to color a lot of this conversation. 28 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,100 And so we're making some predictions which is not 29 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:45,700 something we typically do on the show, but we try to make some 30 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:51,500 informed price predictions, at least and speculate on where 31 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:54,700 things could go from here. But to counterbalance, that 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,800 we're also talking about what all of this fervor could bring. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,700 Terms of negative attention to crypto and how the system the 34 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:06,700 traditional Finance system and also governments and 35 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:12,400 nation-states, how they could react to this tremendous amount 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,200 of enthusiasm around crypto? One of the ways that governments 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,900 could react is by imposing stricter regulations. 38 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:25,100 We're already seeing this in Europe and also in some form in 39 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:29,400 the u.s. there is also the potential for stricter taxation. 40 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:33,200 On crypto assets. So we'll talk about that at 41 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,700 length before we go to the interview. 42 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:38,000 I want to tell you a little bit about one inch. 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,000 One inch is my go-to decks aggregator. 44 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:44,000 And I actually used one inch yesterday because I need to make 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 a little trade. And I was surprised to find out 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,400 that they had recently done an airdrop and that I was entitled 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,800 to receive some when inch tokens, which I claimed, and 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,400 they're worth a nice chunk of change. 49 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,900 So, if you've been using one, And you used it in the last 50 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:04,500 couple of months, you should definitely go to epicenter, 51 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:08,400 rocks /, 1 inch and have a look and see. 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,400 Maybe you've got some, maybe you've got a late Christmas gift 53 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,600 they're waiting for you. So with that, please enjoy this 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,500 conversation with all of the epicenter host. 55 00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:24,000 So the first area that we're going to be discussing today is 56 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,300 on the market cap, or the price of crypto. 57 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:32,000 Currently, unless you haven't noticed the crypto has been in a 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600 pretty significant bull run. These last couple weeks and we 59 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,300 have some predictions on. We're where we think things 60 00:03:39,300 --> 00:03:42,000 could go from here. Maybe we also be interesting to 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,300 have just anybody, everybody like share a little bit about 62 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:49,400 like how their last year were also like yeah. 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,800 Actually. I'd like to start with that. 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,900 Good. Alright, let's go ahead and run. 65 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Yeah. So you wanted to make an episode 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,600 today to like look back a little bit the last year and you kind 67 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,500 of catch up, you put on those few times in person around 68 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:06,200 conferences, of course. Now we've grown has been a long 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,400 time since we had a conference and so we kind of doing it 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,500 remotely and so we want to talk a bit about last year and like 71 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:15,800 all of the things that happened last year and I guess also 72 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,800 specially like our own the things we did. 73 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,300 Maybe that kind of impressed us the most and then talk about 74 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:26,700 this here. And you know, what's coming up 75 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:31,300 as we sort of, at the beginning of seems to be, I get another 76 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:35,100 pic. And probably crazy bull market. 77 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:38,100 Yes, I've had a bit of a crazy year. 78 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:41,700 I think, you know, I think someone was asking me about, 79 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:44,300 like, there's like something there was something that, like, 80 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:46,700 you know, a couple months ago, we were like some talk. 81 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:49,700 I was panel about like, you know what, it's been like working 82 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:52,800 through covid and how is like your work situation changed 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,200 during that and this was back when I was still a tender 84 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,000 moment. And you know, I was like well 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,800 honestly a lot of changes here but a lot of it wasn't from like 86 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,900 covid stuff is more just like other stuff that happened and so 87 00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:06,600 you know basically for me personally I Left. 88 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,600 This is probably one of the biggest changes for me because I 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,900 left my first full-time job that I've ever had. 90 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:17,900 I was at tender meant for three years and, you know, working on 91 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,500 launching the cosmos Hub and conscience SDK and all that. 92 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:28,700 And so I left about back in like June or July and then from that, 93 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:30,700 I needed like a temporary break from crypto. 94 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:34,800 So I just started doing a bunch of random stuff, you know, 95 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,300 working on some web of trust. Stuff. 96 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,700 Working on some education stuff. I made a Twitter bot of myself 97 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:45,000 and then but you know crypto will always drag you back in. 98 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,200 And so I got dragged back in, of course, and just started working 99 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,700 on. So me and my co-founder day, we 100 00:05:50,707 --> 00:05:54,500 started working on our validator company called sikka, still 101 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:56,600 running validators, but also just working on a bunch of more 102 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,800 development projects that we're pretty excited for for launching 103 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,100 in 2021. So, last year at Foster's, a lot 104 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,100 a lot. Work on on correspond was kind 105 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:11,700 of the main, the main focus and I think has been like it was 106 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:14,900 really great year. We started with your 70 but we 107 00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:21,300 grew it to 12 people and there's the whole staking ecosystems of 108 00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,500 course like Blossom. This well you know, so many 109 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:29,200 networks launching so much like Innovation happening around that 110 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,200 and let's be kind of like very cool to like help. 111 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,800 Many of these new networks, getting off the ground. 112 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:37,900 And then we've also done been doing some work around 113 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:42,200 interoperability. So, we did some work on Cosmos, 114 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,500 kind of a relative Cosmos substrate bridge. 115 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,200 And then we did some work on other kind of IEC. 116 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,400 We dated project. So we doing some work on a 117 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,600 sailor Cosmos bridge and kind of exploring like Solana 118 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,400 interoperability. So, of course, that's also still 119 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:05,500 very beginning where, you know, it's not yet really affecting 120 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:07,300 you. Not yet, been used but I think 121 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,500 in this next phase that's going to become a significant 122 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:16,200 significant as well. And yeah, this deal only thing. 123 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,300 Missing was, of course, like that in person team retreat was 124 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,400 work because we always say those, every three months you 125 00:07:21,407 --> 00:07:24,600 went somewhere and that was of course. 126 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,600 After January, 1 year ago we didn't do any but now next we 127 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,200 did them remotely. But now next week we're doing 128 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,500 the first one in person again. So we Going all to buy and well, 129 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:42,400 everyone's coming but about half the company's coming so that's 130 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,700 v. D excited that get on a plane 131 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:49,900 again and like travel somewhere because I haven't haven't been 132 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:51,700 on a plane for almost a year now. 133 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,600 So you know like my I'm working with Brian on chorus one and do 134 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,400 most of my year was, you know, knee-deep in onboarding some of 135 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:09,100 these networks and last year, was the first year where chorus 136 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:13,100 felt stable where I am like no, no longer worried about the 137 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:16,900 company surviving, it's going to survive for at least the next 138 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:21,800 few years and it took us three years to get to this 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,300 psychologically complex. Dual point. 140 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:27,700 So if you really happy, I also feel blessed that covid did not 141 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,700 impact our business. Like we grew a lot. 142 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:35,799 Like last year, we on-boarded to be 10 you networks on a personal 143 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,400 front like something really interesting happened on the 144 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,400 regarding my body and physical well-being. 145 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:47,900 So in the, in the Christmas of 2019, I read this book or 146 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:51,800 lifespan by David Sinclair. I really recommend all the 147 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:56,000 listeners to You read that book. So it's a it's a book is 148 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,600 essentially about you know like the signs of aging and how we 149 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,300 may be able to control the aging process itself. 150 00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:09,200 And so I read that book and it was a revelation and then I did 151 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:14,900 one of these tests which measure your biological age so how old 152 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:18,000 your body actually is as opposed to a calendar age which is the 153 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,900 number of years, you have lived on planet Earth And it turned 154 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:26,300 out that, you know, like, my biological age is 12 years older 155 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:30,300 than my calendar age. So, you know, I'm 32, but 156 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:36,000 biologically, I'm like, 44, and, and like this data is kind of 157 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,500 outside the norm, like, at the complete edge of the normal 158 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:42,500 distribution. So, if you gather like 10,000 159 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:46,100 people, the stelvio difference, I am probably like I have the 160 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:49,000 greatest difference between my calendar and biological age in a 161 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,700 sample of like 10,000 people. So, it was something really odd. 162 00:09:52,700 --> 00:09:58,200 I discovered and it, and this kind of observation sent me down 163 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,700 a path of exploring, a lot of different things. 164 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:04,400 And so, one of the things I've done is like, I have done some 165 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,800 supplements and I'm done a lot of fasting in the, in the 166 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,800 previous year. And what I also discovered on 167 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,100 body is like, the way just started dropping off my body. 168 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:19,000 So I lost 20 kilos last year without even trying, just having 169 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,700 made some changes. So, I feel much more energetic 170 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:25,500 as well. So, yeah, 2020. 171 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:30,300 Brought me some deeper realizations about about the 172 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:32,700 body I inhabit and how to run it better. 173 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,700 So yeah, I'm so thankful to Tucson 24x. 174 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:38,600 Have have you done the second test on your bio doubt? 175 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,200 You could H. Now has it changed. 176 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,000 So I had decided I would do like these regular fasting for a year 177 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,400 and the supplements for a year and then do the run the test. 178 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,700 So hopefully I'll run the test again. 179 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,200 In February of this year, I'm not expecting my clock to be 180 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,500 very different. Because as far as I can see, we 181 00:10:57,500 --> 00:10:59,500 don't know how to influence the clock. 182 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,800 The devel today and I am skeptical. 183 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,200 My changes would have done it, but let's see. 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,900 Brian you. Use you recently switched to 185 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,500 carnivore e. How is that going? 186 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,300 I was I just wanted to kind of like yeah, jumping because 187 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,700 absolutely. Yes. 188 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:20,100 I mean, I've I've always been interested in like diet and 189 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:23,600 passing for a long time and I've been on some sort of like paleo 190 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,800 Isha it for, maybe 10 years and, you know, probably like many 191 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,300 people. You've seen some of these like 192 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:33,100 carnivore. You know, on Twitter, right? 193 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:35,400 There's quite a quite a few sort of Bitcoin carnivores. 194 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,300 And so, yeah, I also saw those and it just seems like an absurd 195 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:42,400 idea. But then at some point I decided 196 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:50,700 to Actually like learn about it and watched a bunch of videos on 197 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:55,400 YouTube about everything books about it and yes II. 198 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,600 Then I tried it out for a while. 2019 and then actually felt 199 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,100 really good but been too kind of getting back to normal again. 200 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:09,700 But now I've been basically six months eating 90 is percent 201 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:15,700 carnivore probably but if you seek Anything? 202 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,900 So I highly recommend people and try it out. 203 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,000 It's I think the biggest difference is I notice is 204 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,600 there's no food cravings. This, you know, you see country 205 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,600 full and then you stopped like you can't video we eat and the 206 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,400 energy is much more stable. So you'd like kind of what does 207 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,400 it mean you don't eat actually vegetables and fruits or grains 208 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,400 or you literally just eat meat? Is that it So I eat eggs. 209 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:50,500 I do eat like so I do like some phases where I just eat meat 210 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:54,800 next. Some sometimes I eat some cheese 211 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,000 as well and I occasionally eat some fruit. 212 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:02,700 I don't eat any vegetables. I'm afraid to chase because it 213 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:07,100 like it tastes like I don't notice any it doesn't if I like 214 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:09,300 a little bit of like mango or something like that it does I 215 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:13,900 don't notice it - difference but it just it's such a different 216 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,800 flavor and taste that it's kind of you know you miss it. 217 00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:20,600 So Brian's officially a Bitcoin maximalist now. 218 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:25,600 Yeah so I had a third kit this year so I'm still on the fish 219 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,100 fingers diet in terms of you know, professional staff. 220 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,600 We did a lot of things that gnosis this year. 221 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,000 So we launched the gnosis Dow. The gnosis save launch. 222 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,400 Gnosis say, if apps there's two and a half billion dollars 223 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,800 student in noses faces safes. Now, we launched, the gnosis 224 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,800 protocol, which is a new way of separate swapping assets, that 225 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,700 kind of uses the blockiness of blockchain to its Advantage. 226 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,100 We launched the a product Market framework that a couple of 227 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,600 Projects have built upon namely Poli, market and Omen. 228 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:09,700 We took over open etherium. So basically the the client that 229 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:15,300 used to be the parity client, is now operated and run by noses. 230 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:17,600 It's called open etherium and sadly. 231 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,200 We didn't get to hold a conference this year. 232 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,400 So we are planning to do a def con this year as well. 233 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,200 I'm looking forward to getting back to that last year. 234 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,100 Other than that, I did a decent amount of years. 235 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,400 Arming and kind of knee-deep in the defy. 236 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,900 Yeah. So basically that's that was 237 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,700 more or less my year. There was a lot going on and I 238 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:44,100 don't really see a debating the moment so happy that like the 239 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,700 Notions prediction markets, finally launch because I used to 240 00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:50,000 joke that gnosis has built half the stuff on a theory, mm except 241 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,800 the prediction markets that they were supposed to. 242 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,700 And but it's like this year. They finally you guys finally 243 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,300 launched prediction Market which is really fun. 244 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,500 So basically prediction markets as most of you know is the 245 00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:01,900 regulatory relief wrought topic. So basically You don't want to 246 00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,200 operate a an unlicensed, friction market. 247 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,600 So basically, we tried to get a license for the longest time and 248 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,700 basically now that we have a license, it's kind of the ground 249 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:17,100 has changed so much that that a couple of fully decentralized 250 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:20,400 projects were actually able to build on the decentralized 251 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,500 framework that we had built. So, basically, we're not 252 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:26,400 operating license, friction Market at this point, but it 253 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,700 feels super good to actually have this framework out there 254 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,100 and have people build on it. And I mean, You can actually 255 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:34,700 launch your own prediction markets on ohm and and I think 256 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,200 the user experience is actually Way Beyond what anyone could 257 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,200 have imagined. You know, interacting with a 258 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,800 fully decentralized step would be like in the past. 259 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,700 Yeah, the guy pretty sure I saw, I like Polly Market mentioned in 260 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:52,000 like, mainstream news during like the election this year and 261 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,200 I like, wow, that's pretty cool that like funny the person. 262 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,800 If a dozen of people don't realize that it's built on noses 263 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,700 technology and people go like, oh, but you haven't launched any 264 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:01,500 prediction. A concise. 265 00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:02,900 Yeah. But really we have. 266 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,100 Yeah. I didn't realize that they're 267 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,000 also saw like the headlines about pulling market for the 268 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,300 achiever cassette. No idea. 269 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,800 This was built on on the gnosis. Yeah, it's another stack. 270 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,500 So we've built a lot of infrastructure. 271 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:18,900 Cool huh. I guess I'll go next. 272 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:24,400 Well this year it's been it's but I think it's been really 273 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,100 fascinating. Your lots of really positive 274 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,700 things happen. So, on the epicenter side, I 275 00:16:29,708 --> 00:16:34,000 think, for me, it was a year Of in some ways, provoked by covid 276 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,500 is to make epicenter, much more leaner as a company. 277 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:40,600 And I think in many ways we've been able to do that and just 278 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,300 have the company run on a much more leaner Pace. 279 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,000 But what has occupied a lot of my time this year has been 280 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,200 working with a then we had someone put a hoe the president 281 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,200 on a couple of months ago then as the association for the 282 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,500 development of digital assets here in France and that's been 283 00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:01,000 extremely positive on a personal level but also just, you know, 284 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:03,500 the accomplishments that we've been able to achieve their, I 285 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:05,900 think are like really, really great. 286 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:11,200 So we have like, over 50 members now and what's what's really 287 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,300 encouraging is to see this initiative. 288 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:20,099 Now, go to the EU level, as many of you are aware, I'm sure our 289 00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:23,300 listeners. I mean, there is crypto 290 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,700 regulation coming both in Europe and in the US and at least here 291 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:32,000 in Europe, there is there isn't or there wasn't Strong unified 292 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,900 voice representing the entire crypto space, the entirely 293 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:40,500 European crypto industry. And so this initiative aims to 294 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:46,500 fill that void and to have a more unified voice in you know 295 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,900 in the face of these regulations that could be quite damaging to 296 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:53,900 the innovation in the space so that's been really great. 297 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:57,500 It's been great to kind of focus my my time and attention on 298 00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:00,700 other things. I've been really enjoying the 299 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:05,000 work I'm doing there and you know start it started off as the 300 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,300 thing that I think I'm more comfortable in which is like 301 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:12,900 structuring you know all the all the things in the organization 302 00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:15,500 and everything, all the tools that were using but now is 303 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:18,200 moving more and towards a advising. 304 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,300 A lot of the, a lot of the papers that were writing 305 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:26,300 bringing my own sort of Technical and privacy minded 306 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,100 touch to the position position papers that the adult is 307 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,300 writing. And a lot of this work is Is 308 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:35,600 also being used for the, for the European initiative. 309 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,200 So that's been really great. And I think with covid, I when 310 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,000 things started, when things started going remote sometime in 311 00:18:46,008 --> 00:18:49,500 March, around that time, it was a really stressful time for me. 312 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:54,400 Like personally it was it was really like it was driving a lot 313 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,600 of anxiety, there was a time there. 314 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,600 I was like a bag of nerves and especially around the time that 315 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,700 we Has the reset everything. But then, you know, then when 316 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,400 things suddenly in the summertime kind of cooled off a 317 00:19:07,408 --> 00:19:09,500 bit and it was able to go on vacation and like, take a 318 00:19:09,508 --> 00:19:12,700 breather that was it helped kind of take some of that, some of 319 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,900 the pressure off. I've really enjoyed this year, 320 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:21,000 being able to spend more time on doing things that I like like 321 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,600 playing electronic music. For example, so you guys can see 322 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,800 this here but my desk is full of devices and things that light up 323 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,000 and instruments and things like that. 324 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,800 I've been spent a lot of time doing that. 325 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:38,800 And yeah, I'm hoping for 20 21. I want to what I'm hoping to do 326 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,600 is to be a little bit more because I've got, you know, my 327 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,800 eggs and different baskets is too little to be a little bit 328 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,000 more structured and organized and how I spend my time in these 329 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,000 different things and so it's like be a little more mindful 330 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,300 about about like time spent on different different Endeavors. 331 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:58,900 Oh, other thing to this year that that was really beneficial 332 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:00,900 and I hope to continue doing next. 333 00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,500 But also is challenging crypto, because that's where most of the 334 00:20:03,508 --> 00:20:07,100 information comes from is like, I really, I really turned down 335 00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:10,400 the Twitter. I try to go in Twitter as little 336 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000 as possible because that was also, I think for like it before 337 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,000 we were talking about, like, how much the phone brings anxiety 338 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,800 that? I think that was one of the 339 00:20:18,808 --> 00:20:22,900 things that helped a lot. I actually tried to decided to 340 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:26,200 start going on Twitter more again because I feel like I so I 341 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,300 started like I started this whole like geography thing 342 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,000 because I was like there's too much crypto stuff on my Twitter. 343 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,300 I need to think that's the thing that I appreciate the most about 344 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:36,600 my Twitter experience is reading your geography treats. 345 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,000 Yeah, yeah I know this is all your your Twitter fault is 346 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,800 amazing. No not to put her best to me so 347 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:53,000 it's something else. There's a lot of geography and, 348 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,500 and the Twitter bot is so good that sometimes I don't know 349 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,900 whether it's the real sunny, or the Twitter, but I was thinking 350 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,100 of like making the profile. The profile pictures are 351 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,500 different right now for the coup de robotics my like epicenter be 352 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,100 like, blocky picture, but I was thinking if I make them the say 353 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,800 that'll really confuse some people. 354 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,700 Yeah. So you're going more in Twitter. 355 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,000 Yeah, I was like, you know, I feel like, I feel like one 356 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,900 thing, I like toned down a little bit of, I've been a 357 00:21:18,908 --> 00:21:22,000 little bit less vocal and, like, I feel like I want to get back 358 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,800 to being more vocal like, you know, I like sharing my thoughts 359 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,800 and on stuff. Like so I have like, you know, 360 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,200 and also just like writing more. So, like at the beginning of the 361 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,300 year, I was trying to write more like blog posts and stuff and I 362 00:21:34,308 --> 00:21:38,000 kind of like paused from that up and then I'm trying to get back 363 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,800 into that. So I have like, you know, after 364 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,000 that, after the episode, we did with Martin on circles, I like, 365 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,400 have this, like blog post. I've been writing about circles 366 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,600 and like, and I have a couple more blog posts, like, in the 367 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,700 works that I want to like publish and I feel like using 368 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:55,700 Twitter as a good like, you know, drafting board because I 369 00:21:55,708 --> 00:21:58,600 think some of my like better blog post actually came from 370 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,300 being like Twitter, tweet storms, that then I turned into 371 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:05,700 blog posts. And so I don't think I've done 372 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,400 those kind of like tweak storms in a while. 373 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:11,000 I think I think what I need to do is just unfollow everybody 374 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,500 and then start again from fresh. I think I just I think I just 375 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:17,200 follow the wrong people. That's the problem. 376 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,800 You can also keep following them and press show me less of this. 377 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,300 Yeah that that also helps perhaps. 378 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,700 Maybe you guys need to train me? I coach me on my, on my Twitter 379 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:30,400 use. One inch is a decentralized 380 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,200 exchange, aggregator that sources liquidity from the top 381 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,600 dex's in the M&M's to save you money and time on swaps 1-inch 382 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,100 finds the best possible training. 383 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:43,000 Paths across over 20 supported liquidity, protocols and splits 384 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,400 them up across multiple Market depths. 385 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,000 I started using one inch last summer and since then, it's 386 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,600 become my Goji, aggregator, I use it every time. 387 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,100 I need to make a swap, they recently launched V2, which has 388 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,500 a brand new API, it greatly improves their routing algorithm 389 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,200 and my Part about the V2, is the new UI. 390 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,900 It's super clean and easy to use these improvements and sure that 391 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:06,700 you get the best rates on your swaps with the lowest possible 392 00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:08,800 response time. So the next time you need to 393 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,600 make a swap, forget about getting the best rate or 394 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,600 optimizing, your gas fees. Make it easy on yourself, just 395 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,500 use one inch and you can let them know that we sent you by 396 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:21,900 goto epicenter, rocks / 1 inch that's one Inc. 397 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,500 H would like to thank one inch for their support of the 398 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:28,700 podcast. Yeah, let's dive into to these 399 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,200 predictions. So we all agreed that the first 400 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,300 thing that was on, everybody's mind that we would want to talk 401 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:38,100 about is the current bull market. 402 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,300 And so we're going to talk. We're going to give our 403 00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:45,500 predictions about where we think the cycle could take us and I 404 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:49,500 think mayor and Brian, you guys had some pretty accurate 405 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:58,900 accurate price, predictions precise, precise number First 406 00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:03,000 like big number go up as a thing as I was like, kind of like read 407 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,300 them roughly but you know, my here claims that the total 408 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:11,400 aggregate crypto market cap will rise 15, XO approach fifteen 409 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:18,200 trillion with in 2021 followed by a 95% crash at some point in 410 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,300 the following years which is interesting. 411 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:24,900 And then Brian claims that he believes Bitcoin is becoming a 412 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:29,700 recognized asset class and will reach about TK by the end of the 413 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:32,700 year and then he added on. At the end the theater will 414 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:34,600 reach 15K by the end of the year. 415 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,200 So I do really want to like go ahead and like give the defense 416 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,400 of your prediction to start with This is an irrational Market, 417 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,400 it's a mad market and like prices. 418 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:50,700 I mean there are no fundamentals in crypto so prices cannot 419 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:56,400 really go beyond fundamentals but they have having lived 420 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,900 through like to to crypto bull markets. 421 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,000 One gets an appreciation of how crazy crypto bull markets get 422 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:08,600 and I think I personally think this is the 2021 is the big one. 423 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:12,500 We're like this bubble will become bigger than the The what 424 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:17,000 the.com bubble was in 1999. And why, I think this will be 425 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,200 bigger than the.com bubble, is that, this is the first post 426 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,300 internet technology bubble where the information transmission has 427 00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:28,600 been accelerated by the internet and in crypto, the Speculator 428 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,400 Trader Market is much much larger than, then the.com 429 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,000 market. So it will be a bigger than 430 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,800 the.com bubble if you think of the.com bubble. 431 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,900 That's around 10 trillion when adjusted for inflation. 432 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:44,600 Nation. And what I'm claiming here 433 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,900 really is that we are going to enter into a bubble. 434 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,800 That's larger than the.com bubble. 435 00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:56,900 And then once the bubble bursts the calm down is yeah, is going 436 00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,800 to be as as drastic as the.com bubble. 437 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,700 So there I think the app the market lost, 96 percent of the 438 00:26:04,708 --> 00:26:06,400 value. I think something similar will 439 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,800 happen to crypto. So it's going to be a crazy 440 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,800 ride. So what I have is like, you 441 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,000 know, do you think this will, you know, you very specifically 442 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,600 said the market cap of crypto rather than like any specific 443 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,200 coy. So do you think this will come 444 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,400 mostly from like new assets or will it come from a price 445 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,400 increase of existing assets or obviously will come from some 446 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,700 combination? But what where do you think most 447 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:34,700 of the value will come from? It has to come from a 448 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,000 combination, right? So, I mean, I'm saying it's 449 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,600 like, Rising 15 x, right? So Bitcoin will rise, but it 450 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,800 won't rise. 15 x. It's going to rise a little 451 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,700 less. So, you know, like 9x or 10x if 452 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,500 helium, probably will rise like 15 x but then there'll be other 453 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:56,000 coins that will rise 100 x, 150 x and of course, will be 454 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,400 completely new coins that will pop out of nowhere and have like 455 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,200 five billion dollar market caps. Yeah they'll be a coin that's 456 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,100 like 3 months old and has multi billion market cap. 457 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,200 All those things are going to happen and the aggregate Market 458 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,000 is going to be like 15 times higher so I don't know how much 459 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,900 like value Bitcoin captures versus the other things. 460 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,400 This is interesting actually listening to you because we kind 461 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,300 of makes me want to like almost like we think my prediction I 462 00:27:26,308 --> 00:27:30,100 mean so I think one of the things that is going on like 463 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:34,800 right now it's just that it's becoming like an asset class 464 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,400 right where you have to use like hedge funds that you know, 465 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,800 buying a buying trip, do banking coin at the moment and I was 466 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,100 listening to this podcast, a few day elected week ago, that I can 467 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:48,500 really brought this point home where this was some normal like 468 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:50,700 non-fruit. We do financial markets 469 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:54,700 investment podcast and you know, you listen to the conversation 470 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:58,100 and they were talking about the price of gold and about the 471 00:27:58,108 --> 00:28:00,600 price of Bitcoin. And you know they said I go-go 472 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,000 that Valley Less in the last while because Bitcoin are taking 473 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,500 market share from gold, you know. 474 00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:09,500 So this is like the first time that I've heard kind of Bitcoin 475 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:15,800 become actually something that's like has a role in kind of the 476 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,000 larger financial markets. And so I think It's like 477 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,300 happening, we have been and you see all these hedge fund 478 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:24,700 investors. That's kind of been like the 479 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:28,100 first way. So now I think and then everyone 480 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:30,400 has to follow, right? I think it would be in their 481 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,800 Pension funds, I don't just be an in kind of, I don't know, 482 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:41,100 your 1% 2% 3% or something of like assets and so, I think, I 483 00:28:41,108 --> 00:28:44,100 think you have that, and of course, we didn't have that with 484 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,600 with the.com bubble, right, where you had this, because this 485 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,400 was just Equity. Everyone is owning it Could be 486 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:50,500 anywhere, you know. Maybe it was. 487 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:53,800 So that's I think one thing that's going to drive just like 488 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,700 very high and it's going to be like a huge. 489 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:04,300 This almost Unstoppable shift and then I think if you compare 490 00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:06,800 it with the got comfortable, I mean the interesting thing of 491 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,400 course, is that when you said adjusted for inflation but like 492 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,400 is that inflation is probably not like their actual inflation 493 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,800 is the money supply, right? Because if you look at this 494 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,000 chart gigantic inflatable, Action or decreasing the total 495 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,300 money supply with, you know, covid and, you know, already 496 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,100 financial crisis. And I think that's just going to 497 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,500 keep going and crazy Pace, right? 498 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:32,300 If you kinda just for that, and actually, I would think that 499 00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:38,100 descriptor bubble should become much larger than the.com bubble 500 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,300 or, you know, at least maybe maybe relatively adjusted to the 501 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,200 money supply, the same level, but probably that would be a lot 502 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,700 more than 60 trillion. So it's kind of actually makes 503 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:49,700 me rethink this. Like, maybe this is going to be 504 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:56,200 even much more insane than like, yeah, I mean, II think you're 505 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,400 right. I agree that like, I feel 506 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,500 Bitcoin is actually found like a really solid product Market fit 507 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,600 at this point. Like, I think, I think it's 508 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,700 inevitable that Bitcoin like, because like, replaces digital 509 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,600 gold, and I don't know if told me my replaces goal. 510 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,000 I don't know if I'm like one year prediction. 511 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,900 I think it might take two more psych like, in this cycle, plus 512 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:16,600 one more, but I think Bitcoin will flip and gold within the 513 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,100 first within the next five years. 514 00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:20,600 For sure. Yeah, I think like in the 515 00:30:20,608 --> 00:30:23,100 current macro environment, I think that Bitcoin just really 516 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:24,800 has this like product Market fit. 517 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,500 It's like, you know, it's this is like thing going, the u.s. 518 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,500 well everyone's getting like airdrop money and there's just 519 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:35,000 like crazy inflation or like monetary expansion that's 520 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,200 happening. It's like, well. 521 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,400 Okay, now people have the means and the reason to just go buy 522 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,600 Bitcoin and I've noticed a lot of, like, a lot of normal people 523 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,300 just, like talking about Bitcoins now. 524 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,800 So, which is like, it's starting to happen again. 525 00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:52,900 On this product Market fit idea. One of the things that I found 526 00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:56,000 interesting and listening to, some of these kind of more 527 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,000 General macro. Finance podcasts is that exist. 528 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,100 It's really the only exposure that I have to, you know, people 529 00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:08,100 in that world and it's to see how Bitcoin always gets grouped 530 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,600 with gold. And the sort of institutional 531 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,800 financial markets have clearly put Bitcoin in the in the store 532 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,000 of value, use case, like no matter what the crypto space. 533 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:22,100 Like Bitcoins use case should be if we should be payments as 534 00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:25,300 should be, whatever for traditional Finance markets. 535 00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:31,400 It's, it's clearly, you know, a store of value and I wonder what 536 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:37,600 that means for Bitcoin Bitcoin future and like how the protocol 537 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,800 might evolve or like, how that will drive. 538 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,900 Maybe like some technical Evolution the protocol. 539 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,300 Yeah, I mean, I always hate this term store value. 540 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:46,800 I feel like it doesn't mean anything. 541 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:49,500 I feel like a better, like, more precise term would be something 542 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:53,400 like a like a macro hedge asset, but that's what I guess. 543 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,200 That's what we mean. When we say store value and 544 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,900 everything stores value. But I think what it is is, it's 545 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:02,900 like, you know, it's a selling point game, right, where it's 546 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:06,000 like, currently everyone just agrees on gold. 547 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,900 As this showing point where like, if you want to bet against 548 00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:11,700 the rest of the world economy, you buy gold. 549 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:16,200 And so that After showing point, which naturally, then like moves 550 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,800 counter to the rest of the economy. 551 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,900 And so I think that's like it just a selling point game that's 552 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:23,100 going to shift from gold to bitcoin. 553 00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,000 And I find these are Financial shelling point games really 554 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,600 interesting because like one of my friends, he was working at 555 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,600 Jane Street in like, during the 2016 election. 556 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:35,800 And he was telling me about how like, you know, during the 557 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,400 election night. You know, they had a poker there 558 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,000 were playing poker, but on the TV they have this like two 559 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,900 screens open. There was one was the predicted 560 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:51,200 prediction markets and the other was the peso US Dollar exchange 561 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,400 rate because essentially all of Wall Street agreed on that 562 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,100 market, as the shelling point to play there, like prediction game 563 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:00,400 on who's going to win the election. 564 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,600 And so it's like it's crazy how much of like Financial like 565 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,600 markets is just like taking it. Like, you know, acting as pseudo 566 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,400 prediction markets, given the lack of like, you know, actual 567 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,000 prediction markets available, So can we then make a prediction 568 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,000 about the Bitcoin price on gnosis built infrastructure? 569 00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:21,400 Absolutely. So I was going to do this 570 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,200 tonight, so I was actually going to make. 571 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:26,500 I was actually going to set up ready to Market on all of the 572 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:29,600 things we talked about. Right now, an omen, we can link 573 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,400 to it in the show notes. Speaking of the product Market 574 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,600 fit the next prediction I had there was that the flip earning 575 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,000 won't happen. I don't think that Ethan is 576 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,400 going to flip in Bitcoin, at least this cycle because I still 577 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,000 life painting. I stole that Bitcoin has this 578 00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:50,400 Good fit. And I still don't know the 579 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,800 product Market fit of eat as an asset. 580 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,300 I'm extremely bullish etherium as a platform and I like build 581 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:03,800 on ethereum, but I don't really quite fully, see the role of e 582 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,199 in the system over time. Yeah, the narrative isn't as 583 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,500 coherent. So basically I think there's 584 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,800 different narratives as to what if your room is. 585 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,000 And yeah, I think that that's easier for Bitcoin because it's 586 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,600 kind of it is a meme and itself like gold. 587 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,500 Yeah, I think for me, I just think the fundamentals of ether 588 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:30,400 just aren't the same, in the sense that like, I think Ron, 589 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,900 the premise of eith comes from like, you know, especially as we 590 00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,900 see IP 1559 Stuff and like you know, I switch to see proof of 591 00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:40,699 stake. It's basically like trying to 592 00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:45,300 tie the value of eat more directly to the product of a 593 00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:48,199 theorem which is like this like decentralized computer. 594 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,800 But the problem for me is that I mean this will get into a topic 595 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,400 we'll get into later in the in the show. 596 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,700 But II don't think decentralized compute is a scarce asset. 597 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,600 Like I think that like if we want scalability we need 598 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,700 decentralized compute to become more Widely available and we're 599 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,400 going to see like a massive increase in like layer 2 and 600 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,600 like all sorts of things. And so if the essentials compute 601 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,900 is not a scarce commodity then I don't see why Ethan is going to 602 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:21,400 accrue that much value. Yeah. 603 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,600 So that's kind of how I see it. The alternative for my view 604 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,800 though is I think that there's this narrative that can be 605 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,500 played where, you know, Bitcoin is a another way of thinking of 606 00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:33,400 it is, it's a fashion statement, right? 607 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,200 It's like if you want to hang out with a certain crowd and you 608 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,000 want to like show the certain message about yourself about the 609 00:35:39,008 --> 00:35:41,800 type of person, you are, you buy Bitcoin, and you show up, you 610 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,100 know, like if you're, if you're really love eating meat, you buy 611 00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:46,600 Bitcoin because it just like fixing with your persona, right? 612 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:50,900 I think like eith has the ability to find that sort of 613 00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:55,000 fashion statement, where I think A coin is this very like techno 614 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,000 pessimistic worldview, where? It's like, or like it's a techno 615 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,400 right-wing libertarian fashion statement. 616 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,300 While I think aetherium has the capacity to become a more techno 617 00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,100 Optimist like left-wing fashion statement. 618 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,200 And I think that I think that's like where it might end up 619 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,600 going. I love the misuse of the word 620 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,200 fashion statement here by the way. 621 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:23,000 So Sunny what do you think about the thesis that Bitcoin will 622 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,300 eventually moved etherium for security reasons? 623 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:31,100 I've had it happen. I the reason I joined Cosmos was 624 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,600 to build the application layer for Bitcoin. 625 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,900 Bitcoin is going to flow off the Bitcoin blockchain into many, 626 00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:38,400 many chains. They that was the original 627 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,000 reason I joined Cosmos like three years ago. 628 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,700 I mean I'm but I that time I also thought Bitcoin is going to 629 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:44,800 be money. I don't think it's going to be 630 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,400 money. I think it's going to be you 631 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,600 know, just going to be the financial asset that we already 632 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,500 talked about. So I don't II really think 633 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:54,300 stable coins are really going to also eats lunch and I think a 634 00:36:54,308 --> 00:36:56,700 lot of the premise of eith was like hey it's going to be the 635 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:59,000 money of aetherium but I think we're going to see that's not 636 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,700 going to be true. I think stable coins are going 637 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:03,400 to be the money of aetherium. I agree. 638 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:10,100 I also have my personal price prediction so it's somewhat in 639 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:15,100 the same vein but I think out of the top Crypto coins by market 640 00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:19,900 cap, I think half of those will no longer be in the top. 10 by 641 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:23,900 end of year and a half that I kind of see dropping out Ripple, 642 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,200 not even sure why it's still there, cardano, Stella chain 643 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,000 link and the most controversial tether which also has 644 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,800 potentially enormous implications for the entire defy 645 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,700 ecosystem, and also the use case of crypto as money, because it's 646 00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:46,900 the but by Market cap, it's by far the largest the largest 647 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,400 silver coin server room. But I think we all talk about 648 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,100 this later. Do you think u.s. 649 00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:55,800 DC will take its place? I'm not sure. 650 00:37:55,900 --> 00:38:00,900 Maybe I think something centralized will for sure for 651 00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:02,700 the moment. So I don't think it's going to 652 00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:04,500 be. I don't think it's going to be 653 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:06,800 die or something. Similarly decentralized. 654 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,500 But I think it's one of my, my later predictions about Facebook 655 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:17,200 and The dollar and so on. So I'd save it for later. 656 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:20,500 Well, it's a one of the predictions I have, which is not 657 00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:23,400 contradictory to yours is. I said that Litecoin will stay 658 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,300 in the top 10. And I brought this up 659 00:38:25,300 --> 00:38:28,000 specifically, because when we did our host episode 2 years 660 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,700 ago, Brian and I got into a mini debate about this weather. 661 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,700 Like when will be like in the same position as it like five 662 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,600 years from then, so it hasn't been five years since that's 663 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000 what it's been two years and like going to still number four 664 00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:44,400 on coin market cap. So, And I'm convinced a Litecoin 665 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,600 will knock a totally. You've been winning that one. 666 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,200 Like I said, it's all about shelling point and memes. 667 00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:59,100 And and Dogecoin is like a big rally up, so that means also 668 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:03,000 making some kind of combat. Yeah, I think this this whole 669 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,500 like Digital Silver meme is going to be very hard to kill 670 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:10,500 and I think it's gonna always like continue to be there. 671 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,400 Yeah. Okay. 672 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,500 So me and maybe I can go to the maybe we have those next thing 673 00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:18,300 something I wrote this is basically about that. 674 00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:20,400 Okay? Now you have this huge bubble 675 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,700 and then what happens. What's kind of like to be Ons 676 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:29,000 from the system. And I I see kind of a bunch of 677 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,700 different stuff. So first of all, now you can 678 00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:34,500 have descriptive businesses competing with like traditional 679 00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:37,400 businesses and the crypto businesses are going to have 680 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,900 like some weird advantages, but also the hitch is going to be 681 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:44,000 different and not really fit into the like, the way things 682 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,900 are done. And so I think one big thing 683 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:50,200 will be like trying to reduce regulation to like protect the 684 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,700 king company Industries and to make it like like harder for 685 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,000 decentralized, social needs to compete. 686 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,100 So I think that's going to be one thing. 687 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,300 I think we also of course going to see this huge wealth 688 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:04,900 transfer, right? If this happens, right? 689 00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:07,300 There's all these cryptic people going to get very rich and like 690 00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:09,700 people with other types of assets, they're going to like, 691 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:13,200 you know, loose and to some extent and it's going to be very 692 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,600 visible. But I think a lot of these 693 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,500 people like on Twitter and on Instagram and you know you're 694 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,900 going to have like the rapper's in there and in the Lambos 695 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,100 already. And so I think it you have all 696 00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:26,600 of That like in your face and then maybe traditional 697 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,700 businesses that are going like more under attack by crypto. 698 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,000 So I think this is going to be this backlash and one Avenue 699 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,200 where I could see this playing out will be with like taxes as 700 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,500 well, where you know, they did it. 701 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:46,400 So complicated. Love this cup, the stuff that 702 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,000 even if you wanted to like perfectly pay your taxes, it's 703 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,600 often not totally clear what to do. 704 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:59,200 So I can see going after I group the people for like tax evasion 705 00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:03,600 and like, you may be requiring people to that disclose their 706 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:09,600 addresses to the government and then they run like software to 707 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,900 look at like all your transactions and kind of so I 708 00:41:12,908 --> 00:41:15,300 can see stuff like that happened. 709 00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:19,900 But I just think there's going to be like you know real much 710 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:24,900 deeper kind of Ask to try to add. 711 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,400 Can you be a little bit more specific of look? 712 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,200 What the type of backlash will be, you will come mostly from 713 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,400 like a government backlash. Or are you saying they'll also 714 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,300 be like a social backlash as well? 715 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,900 I think there's going to be covenants, backlash, but kind of 716 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:44,000 driven by it will have some public support I think because 717 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,900 people will, a lot of people would be alienated by some stuff 718 00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:50,100 that's going to happen in equip the space by some people be 719 00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:51,400 inspired and love it. Right. 720 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,300 But I think this also Don't be big people who live all is of 721 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:58,200 what this is, an artist Insanity here. 722 00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:02,800 It is an, ER, his Casino. So we are already seeing some 723 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,900 stuff. I didn't, I think this was also 724 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:11,200 like that this treasury idea that you can't transfer or, you 725 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,700 know, you have to identify when you withdraw from her wallet if 726 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,400 you have to identify the counterparty and so like, how do 727 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,300 you deal with smart? Contracts are right that mean. 728 00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:22,200 Anyway, this is like a direct regulatory it. 729 00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,700 Act that makes it harder for a smart contract to compete with 730 00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,900 its additional business. So I think we could see a lot of 731 00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:31,300 that. And then, yeah, I mean, imagine 732 00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:34,600 if your tax abilities, asks you, hey, don't you have to give them 733 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,700 like, all you could do addresses and then you and then they could 734 00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:43,500 like I've always thought that taxes will be one of the ways 735 00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:46,100 that you know you can go mean. That's how they put out the 736 00:42:46,107 --> 00:42:48,100 phone in jail nose like the taxes. 737 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,400 But Brian. How do you feel about privacy 738 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,000 enhancing Technologies? Technology because basically in 739 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,000 the way you can actually you can build or, you know, you can 740 00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,900 engineer your way out of this, right? 741 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,900 That's I don't know yet, but I think that's going to be kind of 742 00:43:02,908 --> 00:43:05,400 one of the battle lines, right? Well, of course people then I'm 743 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,700 going to get more privacy Centric stuff and like some 744 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:09,200 people will use it or just phone. 745 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,500 So I think that's going to just become one of these big 746 00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:14,300 Battlegrounds in that I could see. 747 00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:16,500 They're also being more of a segmentation where you're going 748 00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:21,000 to have like no regulated crypto and then I mean we saw that even 749 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:27,200 I think that Sneak a peek over fine for violating sanctions 750 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,900 law, even though it's sort of like a nun hosted wallet, it's 751 00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:34,600 multisig wallet. So if you are yours is non-host 752 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,700 about hosted wallet, but I think they got some fine because it 753 00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:42,100 was some people in Iran or some some sanction country using it. 754 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,100 And so now they're okay, they have to say oh we have to assert 755 00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:47,900 yourself more. Make sure nobody's touching that 756 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,600 And so I could see this sort of segmentation of the industry 757 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,400 into a more of a regulated and then more like offshore 758 00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:02,200 unregulated part. I totally agree with this 759 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,300 prediction and it really overlaps with some of my 760 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,500 predictions. I wanted to bring up later on 761 00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:10,400 and I think that the regulatory aspect. 762 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,000 So a couple things of Taxation aspect I think is is clear and 763 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,400 at least here in France, we're already seeing some version of 764 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:20,700 that. So when you file your taxes in 765 00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:22,600 France, you have to declare all Exchange accounts. 766 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,600 In fact, you have to declare All Foreign financial institutions 767 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,100 where you have an account and so crypto exchanges are usually 768 00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:34,100 Part of those and I could definitely see that the way that 769 00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:36,200 government has been forging policy here. 770 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,600 I definitely addresses being one of the things that's required to 771 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,100 disclose in the next couple of years and then just on the on 772 00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:46,800 this idea that you're part of crypto would be regulated in 773 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,400 part. May, you know, stay outside of 774 00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:52,900 the regulated space. I think the, the mica regulation 775 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,100 makes it pretty clear that, that is what could happen in, in the 776 00:44:58,107 --> 00:45:01,500 mica regulations, for example, privacy-preserving, Is our are 777 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:03,900 forbidden and so privacy-preserving, Koreans can 778 00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:05,900 exist. The, the simply can't exist in a 779 00:45:05,908 --> 00:45:09,300 regulated space. Now, with regard to other coin 780 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,600 other types of use cases, like, like, stable coins, Etc. 781 00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:16,200 There's also some question there about whether or not those could 782 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:23,200 exist in the regulated space and if indeed, there are some crypto 783 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,600 use cases that are regulated and some which are not. 784 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,400 There could be sort of this as you describe it, read like the 785 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,200 separation or what I call like a schism. 786 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:34,100 Were part of crypto exist in the traditional sort of linked or 787 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:37,400 somehow tied to the traditional Finance space is regulated there 788 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,200 on ramps Etc, but part of crypto exists outside of that. 789 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,500 And then there's you know, you can extrapolate from there. 790 00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,500 It does that mean that there are companies exist solely in that 791 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:51,200 market and does it create sort of like a sort of Shadow economy 792 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,100 where it is all kinds of other businesses and activities 793 00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:56,700 happening, but that never interfaces or rarely interfaces 794 00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:59,100 or where it's very difficult to interface with the with the 795 00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:03,700 traditional Finance space. The shadow side will probably 796 00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,100 exist in this case. But do you think it will be a 797 00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:11,800 big space or no, because like, the current premise of defies 798 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,300 that eventually, this stuff is supposed to interface back with 799 00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:18,600 like normal people in the real economy at least in my opinion. 800 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,400 But if that if that door is closed, and would you think that 801 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,300 like the shadow side will basically like you know, go back 802 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,300 to like twenty Thirteen Days like yeah you can use it for 803 00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:30,100 darknet stuff but like that's about it. 804 00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:33,200 It. So currently like the wild west 805 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,700 of defy has this like at least public State, like view of like 806 00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:41,000 a eventually. This stuff is going to be used 807 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,100 by normal people but if regulation comes in like clamps 808 00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:47,600 that down, will the wild west like disappear or will it 809 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,700 continue to like grow despite their? 810 00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:52,400 Let me throw the question that I got you. 811 00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,200 You know, let's let's let's assume that Mica goes through as 812 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,900 it is today without any without any modification. 813 00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:03,200 I'm not so familiar with the The with the u.s. crypto regulatory 814 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,600 proposal, I've heard that it's a lot more open to Innovation 815 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,100 etcetera, but let's let's just let's just presume that like, 816 00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:13,500 stable coins are illegal or the staple coins exist outside of 817 00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:17,200 the regulated space, then that means that exchanges won't be 818 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,900 able to list them. Then it's really up to 819 00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:23,900 interpretation whether or not exchanges can deal with coins 820 00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:27,700 that have also interacted on Smart contracts, you know, where 821 00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:32,600 the exchanges be able to, to You've liquidity from coins that 822 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,200 have went through like the maker smart contracts, for example, or 823 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,200 this sort of thing. When you say exchanges, you mean 824 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,900 centralized exchanges? Yes, Central exchange regulated 825 00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:45,300 exchanges. So basically in, in a way I 826 00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:48,600 think this cut actually comes down to being a philosophical 827 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,000 and historical problems. So basically what good are laws 828 00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:56,600 that you can't enforce where basically, you cannot make sure 829 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:02,500 that a law is abided by I think those Those are laws that kind 830 00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:06,800 of get overturned or repealed by history itself. 831 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,400 Well I mean I think the question though is yes. 832 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,300 So like with dex's and stuff you can skirt the law but I guess my 833 00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:19,400 question is what percent of the population do we think is going 834 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,200 to do that? Well, I think it's a very low 835 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,200 percent of the population. I think if like if these things 836 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,700 are meant to be, if the vision for defies that defy becomes the 837 00:48:28,700 --> 00:48:32,800 the underpinnings for Ensign where markets are able to 838 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,400 operate and like, things that we already know, and that already 839 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,000 exists, like, Commodities, markets, Etc. 840 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,400 Like just the stock market and all this can exist on defy. 841 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,000 At least the way that Mica is worded. 842 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,400 It definitely does seem as though they are trying to bring 843 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,500 the parts of defy that already resemble and mimic traditional 844 00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:53,400 financial markets. Things like you know Securities 845 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,300 things like electronic money. They want to bring that into the 846 00:48:56,300 --> 00:48:59,200 traditional Finance system and have that be regulated, but all 847 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,000 this other Innovative stuff. I call the all the the D gen 848 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,200 stuff, definitely exists outside of of the regulation and there's 849 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,700 no room for it in the regulation. 850 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,800 And so, I think that and I certainly hope so. 851 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,400 And that's the work that we're doing with our initiatives. 852 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,200 Is that the regulation leaves room for more Innovation? 853 00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:21,900 But as it's currently, drafted, it closes very many doors. 854 00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:27,800 So do you think will people be willing to I guess it's like a 855 00:49:27,808 --> 00:49:31,000 cultural thing as well, right? So don't it'll probably change 856 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,500 from like country to Country like what one obviously the 857 00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:36,600 regulation will change country country but also just the 858 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,200 willingness to break rules probably changes from country to 859 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,600 country as well. But also the acceptability of 860 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:44,900 breaking rules. Right? 861 00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,100 So basically I remember when I was a kid and basically content 862 00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:51,700 sharing started and you had Napster and, you know, all of 863 00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:55,600 these kind of services. I remember they ran these ad 864 00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,500 saying, you wouldn't download a car and I know that basically, 865 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,700 with my generation this that this didn't resonate because 866 00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:08,100 basically, it didn't feel like downloading a song was morally 867 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,300 wrong. I mean, look what happened? 868 00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:13,400 I mean, people don't Really by entire records anymore. 869 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,500 People now pay for streaming services and this is how this 870 00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:20,400 monetize and through you know, advertising ideas and so on and 871 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,200 arguably interacting with privacy-preserving crypto is way 872 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:28,700 less enforceable than punishing. Someone for downloading a song 873 00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:32,700 on Napster. So I think in a way the law 874 00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:36,600 doesn't stand on its own but it kind of mimics what people feel 875 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,800 is, right? And what is wrong. 876 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,100 And I think that understanding is just going to change over 877 00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:45,100 time. But anyway, isn't that actually 878 00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:47,800 the music piracy is basically dead now, right? 879 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,400 Like, I mean, no one, you like Billy? 880 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,000 Anyone Pirates was it's all Spotify and you can think of 881 00:50:52,008 --> 00:50:54,900 that is sort of like the, you know, you have the traditional 882 00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:57,800 music industry with their like selling CDs and you have this 883 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,500 like this radical thing of like piracy and then you found some 884 00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:05,300 synthesis in like Spotify and so like maybe the everyone that be 885 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:08,100 what happens here as well. You have the traditional Finance 886 00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:10,900 industry than you have this like crazy defy thing and then we're 887 00:51:10,908 --> 00:51:13,400 going to find like some synthesis in Like regulated 888 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,000 defy. Yeah, I think that's reasonable 889 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:22,400 and very 95 will kill piracy just like Spotify killed the 890 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,700 music but but only if regulated defy Isn't So heavily sechrist 891 00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:30,700 rated that, you know, it doesn't really qualify as the real 892 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:32,500 thing. Yeah. 893 00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:37,600 Just as with with dismantling of the the music industry but also 894 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,600 like the movie industry to some extent like I think that we will 895 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,600 come to some Some kind of middle. 896 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:50,400 And but you know where where the cursor stands in terms of what 897 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,100 that middle looks like, I think is, is really an unanswered 898 00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:58,000 question at the moment. I think like one of the most 899 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,600 compelling things for me about defy over traditional Finance is 900 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,200 the ux of it. I think the ux of it is like 901 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,600 what's really nice? And I think you could say the 902 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,000 same thing about the piracy, like I think the ux of like 903 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,200 Digital streaming, it's just way better than going to buy CDs. 904 00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:19,400 And so regulated, defy can like provide the ux benefits over 905 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,400 traditional Finance, but I think it's an actually follow, you 906 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,300 know, through the course of this conversation. 907 00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:27,600 I think I've actually been like I'm Now, does need to the music 908 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:28,900 industry. I really think that like, 909 00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:33,700 regulated Defy is gonna probably like wipe like wild west ephi, 910 00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:35,900 once it provides aux features too. 911 00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:39,600 Like normal people. But only if you have things like 912 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,700 stable coins, for instance, I mean basically and privacy 913 00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:46,300 preserving coins and so on. So I feel like if the thing that 914 00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:49,000 is then called regular times, I don't think normal people care 915 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,100 about privacy. I think normal people probably 916 00:52:51,100 --> 00:52:53,500 don't care about privacy preserving coins and stable 917 00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:55,400 coins will exist. I mean, it depends on how they 918 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,900 exist of all, we'd be more regulated like, you know, maybe 919 00:52:57,900 --> 00:52:59,500 it has to be issued by a bank and stuff. 920 00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,600 But I think that my claim is that normal people don't care 921 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,200 whether it's issued by a bank or, by like Circle, you know, 922 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,500 they just care. That is Under ux is as nice as 923 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,200 like it currently is. I think that's all they care 924 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:14,700 about. I don't think they care about 925 00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,100 privacy. But I mean, the user experience 926 00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:20,400 is pretty okay right now on defying. 927 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,100 It's only going to get better, right? 928 00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:26,300 So why would people kind of leave the wild west to start 929 00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:30,000 with? Because the regulation will 930 00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:35,800 decrease, the ux of wild west defy and make the ux of 931 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,900 regulated D5 better because with the pirating, music, you always 932 00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:41,600 get those, like, dmca complaint. Every time you pirate, then 933 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,400 that's like, that's sort of a, you can think of that as a 934 00:53:43,408 --> 00:53:47,600 negative u x component, right? And so, I'd rather just pay the 935 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,500 eight bucks a month to Spotify, get as good of a street of ux, 936 00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:55,000 as probably better than pirating music. 937 00:53:56,100 --> 00:54:00,400 Yeah, I'm just questioning how good the ux under Micah would be 938 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,500 Yeah. I mean on the topic of stable 939 00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:07,800 coins, I think it's worth noting that at least in Europe, the 940 00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:12,500 European commission is considering crypto euros and I 941 00:54:12,508 --> 00:54:14,700 don't really have well-founded but on this but maybe this is 942 00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:17,300 something that we can launch into into some some debate at 943 00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:20,300 some point. But I think that generally 944 00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:24,900 there's going to be an opening up of currencies are in the 945 00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:31,000 future are no longer monopolized by countries and by like Central 946 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,200 That's right. So I think here in this rundown, 947 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,400 we're talking about the, the Facebook, Libra and initiatives 948 00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,300 Etc. And so I think things like Libra 949 00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:43,100 are going to exist and they're going to exist alongside things 950 00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:45,100 like a digital Euro or crypto Euro. 951 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:51,700 And that is a power shift that resembles the power shift that 952 00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:56,500 we saw with the music industry and the movie industry, you 953 00:54:56,500 --> 00:55:00,900 know, 20 years ago where highly centralized power in those. 954 00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:06,400 Industries was broken apart and now exists in all these digital 955 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,800 startups like Spotify, Etc. We may see a similar, sort of 956 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,600 disruption, of the of the power Monopoly around. 957 00:55:14,700 --> 00:55:19,400 Currencies to favor, private currencies, like the Libra and 958 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,100 others. I don't know if this is 959 00:55:21,100 --> 00:55:22,900 something you, you guys have thought about too. 960 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,400 I think government's going to fight tooth and nail to protect 961 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,000 their power here and I think will be very hard. 962 00:55:30,100 --> 00:55:33,500 I'm not saying that I'm going to fight but yeah, the record 963 00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:36,900 labels didn't have power of taxation and a military 964 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,000 governments do. And the one thing that they care 965 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,000 about above all else, is to maintain their like monetary 966 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,600 dominance. And I think that like, they will 967 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,000 fight very hard to prevent someone from trying to disrupt 968 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,800 that I agree with you sonny and I think in the end, they will 969 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,900 fail. And I think that's in 970 00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:02,400 retrospect, that's going to be the pervasive Paradigm Shift of 971 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,300 our times. Basically Powers diverted away 972 00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:11,400 from nation states and two companies or other collectives. 973 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:13,900 Why do we think this is the case? 974 00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:17,100 Like, what, what are the triggers? 975 00:56:17,100 --> 00:56:18,100 That's going to make that the case. 976 00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:21,100 Like, you know, historically we've seen a continuous increase 977 00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:24,200 in like state power. What's gonna be the cause of 978 00:56:24,207 --> 00:56:27,900 this reversal? I mean, it depends on which 979 00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:29,600 skate of History you're looking, right? 980 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,200 I mean basically the Roman Empire collapsed and very Vino 981 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,300 State pie up our very much request. 982 00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:38,600 So I don't think that's not possible. 983 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,900 Anymore laws are only good if you can enforce them. 984 00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:47,500 And this is kind of segueing into our regulation part of the 985 00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:50,000 conversation. But so basically, this was, this 986 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,500 was my one prediction on regulation that I actually 987 00:56:53,500 --> 00:56:58,900 alluded to earlier, namely that If you look at the way that the 988 00:56:58,900 --> 00:57:02,100 Facebook proposal for Libre has moved. 989 00:57:02,100 --> 00:57:07,300 So in the beginning it was a basket pegged to babies. 990 00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:11,000 Basically it was a coin paektu, a basket of different acids and 991 00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:15,000 under us regulatory pressure that has kind of switch to a 992 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,500 u.s. he backed stable coin, right? 993 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:22,100 So I still think that despite the fact that that is probably 994 00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:25,400 the best deal that the u.s. can actually get right now. 995 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:30,300 I Think they would still clamp down on this and I think 996 00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:34,000 Facebook will lose in this instance and I think Facebook is 997 00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,600 very much on a path to demise anyways, but in its wake. 998 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:43,000 I think we will see a stable coin that is global and basket 999 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,100 packed and that will merge into the mainstream. 1000 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,100 And that will be said set up such that it will not have the 1001 00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:55,000 same regulatory exposure as Facebook and I think this will 1002 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,100 Herald a couple of This one being the end of the global 1003 00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:01,900 dominance of the United States because that is in essence, 1004 00:58:01,900 --> 00:58:05,900 based on controlling the supply of, you know, the world's 1005 00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:09,000 Reserve currency. But I think this is also in the 1006 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,300 widest sense. It's also going to mean that 1007 00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:16,300 nation-states will become less powerful and I would actually 1008 00:58:16,300 --> 00:58:20,200 argue that nation-states at Peak power right now. 1009 00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:24,400 And I think that corporations and possibly later dowels and 1010 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:29,300 other sort of of schemes will kind of take that place. 1011 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,900 I very much agree with that. I think this is like missing 1012 00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:37,300 parsley, like the cyclical Network effect of the US dollar. 1013 00:58:37,300 --> 00:58:40,300 Like it seems like your claim here is that the u.s. power 1014 00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:45,200 comes from the dominance of the US dollar, which is true. 1015 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,900 But that also is a feat. The other direction as well. 1016 00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:50,900 The power of the US dollar comes from the power of the US 1017 00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:52,900 government. Like the entire petrodollar 1018 00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:55,900 system is built on that like I do. 1019 00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,800 Of like, you know, the US military will enforce it. 1020 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,500 And so, you know, the reason, the u.s. dollar is the, like, 1021 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,300 Global Reserve currencies that you needed to pay for oil. 1022 00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:09,100 And when you stop someone from try to, if you try to pay for 1023 00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:11,500 oil or something else, the US military will come and invade 1024 00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:13,900 you. And so, it's like, we need to 1025 00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:18,100 see like, what is the? And you can see what the path is 1026 00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:20,800 to an alternative. Well, what One path is the 1027 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,300 decline of the decline. In the demand for oil, let me 1028 00:59:24,300 --> 00:59:26,600 that's one path. I mean, I do Have a specific 1029 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,700 information, we have countries like you're wrong, right? 1030 00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:33,800 That are basically locked out anyway you know there are good 1031 00:59:34,500 --> 00:59:37,000 you know they can use some help it coin right wing sauce on use 1032 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,400 there and then I think you have other countries you know like 1033 00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:44,100 China like we should be a big oil buyer. 1034 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,300 Like do they care about like protecting US dollar? 1035 00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:49,900 I'm not sure. But so try those not going to 1036 00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:51,800 push China going to push the you on, right? 1037 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,800 Like you know what China is doing right now is they're 1038 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,900 building like they have a viable strategy. 1039 00:59:56,100 --> 00:59:58,200 G2 building a reserve currency. What they're doing is they're 1040 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,600 going to have a country and like, saying, hey, Will fund 1041 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,600 your ports as long as all imports and exports from here 1042 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,900 are denominated in RMB. That's like a viable path. 1043 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,000 Yes. But I mean that, that actually, 1044 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,000 that puts pressure on the dollar, right? 1045 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,000 I mean so basically that that fragments the system even more. 1046 01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,000 Yeah, exactly. You're going to have a day so 1047 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,000 you can base it. They say oh, you know get yarn 1048 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,800 from China or like you can get like maybe do something with 1049 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,900 Bitcoin with Iran and then definitely will. 1050 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,900 Be others that are also like like Russia. 1051 01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:32,200 I'm sure is going to be happy to do deals like outside of the 1052 01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,000 dollar system. So I don't think that they're 1053 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,800 going to the military is going to be able to sort of like 1054 01:00:38,900 --> 01:00:42,700 maintained its dominance of the dollar. 1055 01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:45,800 I think there is a big selling point around the dollar, right? 1056 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,000 Where everyone keeps their accounts and Dad and they slowly 1057 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,100 quiddity in that. And I think that's, of course, 1058 01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:55,000 going to be more sticky, but in the ain't, I don't know about 1059 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:00,000 the dollar I would, Still some ways away until we are going to 1060 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,500 see two dollar kind of lose its status. 1061 01:01:03,500 --> 01:01:06,300 I would guess that's not going to happen in like this bull run. 1062 01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:13,800 But you know maybe 5-10 years. Maybe I can, I can step in like 1063 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,600 when I hear all of you talking, I think I would like to actually 1064 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,500 someday categorize your predictions into, like a 1065 01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:22,700 framework. So you think of state power, 1066 01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:25,700 like the, what does the state want State doesn't want. 1067 01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:28,200 One thing, it wants multiple things, right? 1068 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,400 So maybe it wants to preserve, its monetary sovereignty over 1069 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,100 their own population. Meaning US Government wants a 1070 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,400 optional transaction US dollars, so that's one thing they want. 1071 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,400 The second thing they want is tax collection, which is making 1072 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,200 tax evasion, really hard. We have tiptoe. 1073 01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:50,600 The third thing they want is which is like preserving the 1074 01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:54,800 market structure, right? Which which is like the SEC 1075 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:56,900 wants that. If there's a crypto coin, 1076 01:01:56,900 --> 01:01:59,500 there's no information. Asymmetry vis-à-vis, the crypto 1077 01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:01,700 coin. So they want to preserve Market 1078 01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:05,600 structure. And then the ID for thing is 1079 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,200 they want surveillance. So we'll is comes in move from a 1080 01:02:10,207 --> 01:02:14,600 law enforcement so it could be that the government wants four. 1081 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,500 Things four major things. We can identify a different 1082 01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:21,400 number maybe in the future, they will get some of these things 1083 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,000 from crypto, but on the others, they will fail to get what they 1084 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,500 want. So, you know, the you could 1085 01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:30,100 imagine different Futures. There's one future in which the 1086 01:02:30,100 --> 01:02:33,500 government gets their surveillance capability. 1087 01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,500 So they're able to surveil everything way. 1088 01:02:35,500 --> 01:02:39,000 Better than area, I will today we are crypto, but Lose their 1089 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,000 monetary power. I mean, the coins being 1090 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,600 transacted and not US dollars, but they are servile really 1091 01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:46,400 well. That's one kind of future but 1092 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,100 the different kind of future is they preserve. 1093 01:02:48,100 --> 01:02:51,300 The monetary sovereignty would lose their surveillance power. 1094 01:02:51,900 --> 01:02:56,200 So, you know, like the future has like different outcomes 1095 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,200 based on which of these Powers is accentuated for the 1096 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,200 government and which of the powers is weakened for the state 1097 01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:07,300 and all of you are like on like different spectrums of some of 1098 01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:10,300 your advocating for Or a particular thing will be 1099 01:03:10,300 --> 01:03:12,300 strengthened and another particular thing will be 1100 01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:14,600 weakened and like that's these are of difference in your 1101 01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,700 predictions. So maybe we can actually like 1102 01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:21,900 classify your predictions. Using some model like that right 1103 01:03:21,900 --> 01:03:23,900 here that I think that's actually really good way of 1104 01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:27,600 putting it. I think personally that for me, 1105 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,100 I think the surveillance is something that will be harder 1106 01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:34,700 for them to enforce, and I think they know that and I think which 1107 01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:39,500 is why maintaining the monetary dominance is Something that they 1108 01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:45,200 can do more easily. It's like surveillance is like 1109 01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,700 this hard problem, where you have to have, like, monitor 1110 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:52,200 literally everything but like with monetary dominance, it's 1111 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,500 not like it's something. You can like kind of enforce 1112 01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:58,400 Knock by like needing visibility into the entire thing. 1113 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,300 But just this like larger thing where you like, I don't know how 1114 01:04:02,308 --> 01:04:03,600 to describe it. Exactly. 1115 01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,000 But yeah, I don't know maybe someone else can bring it. 1116 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,700 In a way you actually have that now, right? 1117 01:04:08,700 --> 01:04:12,300 I mean, so we basically Cassius to a large extent not traceable 1118 01:04:12,500 --> 01:04:16,800 and you still have monetary dominance as a nation state. 1119 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:22,800 So in summary I think what we can say is that with some with 1120 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:27,900 some amount of certainty is that crypto markets are going to see 1121 01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:31,500 a pretty significant increase in prices this year and I think we 1122 01:04:31,500 --> 01:04:36,400 all welcome that. And, but at the same time, the 1123 01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:41,100 attention that will that will bring two crypto, May in fact, 1124 01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:44,500 cause the space to regress, in terms of its ability to 1125 01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:48,300 innovate, as freely as it has, you know, The last, like, three 1126 01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:51,900 years since the last Bull Run. Would you say that that's, would 1127 01:04:51,900 --> 01:04:56,700 you guys agree that that is sort of the overlying trend that we 1128 01:04:56,700 --> 01:05:01,400 should expect in the next year? I do think we will see a large 1129 01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:05,300 amount of regulatory push back, but I do think, I mean, this is 1130 01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:08,100 kind of where we disagreed on the episode, right? 1131 01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:11,700 So, whether whether this will actually mean that a large 1132 01:05:11,700 --> 01:05:17,700 portion of the ecosystem will become regulatory compliant or 1133 01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:23,200 whether there will still be a large unregulated part and I 1134 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:28,500 think the ecosystem will very much rarely to avoid being. 1135 01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:32,100 Being regulated in an overly dramatic, transgressive way. 1136 01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,700 I mean, if you if we bring it back to the just kind of brief 1137 01:05:35,700 --> 01:05:37,700 just want to briefly bring it back to this analogy, if we 1138 01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:41,000 bring it back to the, to the, to the piracy and like music, 1139 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,500 download example, I mean, that's exist. 1140 01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:46,100 It still exists in massive scale. 1141 01:05:46,100 --> 01:05:48,700 There are still, you know, Terror like a hundreds of 1142 01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:51,000 terabytes of day. Probably even thousands of 1143 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:56,800 terabytes per day of music and movies being downloaded and 1144 01:05:57,100 --> 01:06:00,700 that's despite government's trying to stop it. 1145 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,100 It just doesn't interface. With any regulated with any 1146 01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:10,100 regulated entities, I don't know what that, how that overlaps to 1147 01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:14,600 in the crypto space, but it might be one indication that 1148 01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:18,700 there are can still be a sort of wild west of crypto. 1149 01:06:18,700 --> 01:06:22,200 While a lot of the Innovation that's coming the last few years 1150 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:26,000 and that will continue to come will be sucked into a regulated 1151 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,900 space. I mean it really meant it 1152 01:06:28,900 --> 01:06:32,300 depends on what the regulated alternative looks like, right? 1153 01:06:32,300 --> 01:06:35,200 So basically if you think back to iTunes where base you could 1154 01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:39,700 buy any song for 99 cents, I mean, I don't even know whether 1155 01:06:39,700 --> 01:06:42,700 that still exists. I haven't seen iTunes in years. 1156 01:06:42,900 --> 01:06:46,500 So, I assumed that it kind of was probably discontinued 1157 01:06:46,500 --> 01:06:49,400 because the people didn't like it in our people. 1158 01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,700 It wasn't appealing enough for people to stop pirating, right? 1159 01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:56,700 Well better Alternatives came around exactly because better 1160 01:06:56,700 --> 01:07:00,100 transitive Came around. And so I think unless the 1161 01:07:00,100 --> 01:07:05,500 regulated open Financial defy space is as attractive as the 1162 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,600 unregulated one. I think it's not going to happen 1163 01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:12,000 and people are going to find an engineer ways around it. 1164 01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,500 All right cool. Thanks to all of you and I think 1165 01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:18,000 we can. All agree that this is you guys 1166 01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:22,700 have our audience has really I think over the years like asked 1167 01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:26,600 for us to do more of these and what we've all agreed on here, I 1168 01:07:26,607 --> 01:07:29,600 think, is that That will try to do these at least once a quarter 1169 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,400 because you guys like them and also like we think they're 1170 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,600 really fun. And we're good guests. 1171 01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:40,200 So yes, also. So with that happy New Year to 1172 01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,700 everybody and we'll see you on the internet. 1173 01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:46,700 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1174 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,600 We release new episodes every week. 1175 01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:52,000 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1176 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:55,100 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1177 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,200 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1178 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:01,200 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1179 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,200 epicenter dot TV /, subscribe for a full list of places where 1180 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:06,900 you can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1181 01:08:06,900 --> 01:08:09,700 for the newsletter, you get new episodes in your inbox as 1182 01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:13,000 they're released if you want to interact with us, guests or 1183 01:08:13,100 --> 01:08:16,000 Other podcast listeners you can follow us on Twitter and please 1184 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,399 leave us a review on iTunes. It helps people find the show 1185 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,800 and we're always happy to read them but thanks so much and we 1186 01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,200 look forward to being back next week.