Hi and welcome to episode of this is episode 391 with guest
Michael agar off. So I'm Brian Crane and I'm here
with my co-host CK. Now, before we going to talk
about Mike with Michael about curve Finance, which is one of
the automated The market maker, protocols has gotten the most
traction. We want to spend a minute to
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give it a try. Now if that let's go into our
episode. So Michael, it's such a pleasure
to have you. Thanks for coming on.
Maybe just share a little bit background about yourself.
Like what's what's been your journey and especially kind of
like you journey to becoming involved in the crypto space.
So you're basically my crypto Journey started in late 2013
with by and little bit of Bitcoin.
At the time I was doing a postdoc and physics after
receiving PhD in physics and shortly.
After I actually went to the United States to work in, tech
industry at LinkedIn and the time and I've learned a lot of a
lot about crypto at that time as well.
And and actually started the company which it was not doing
crypto called 0 DB which is now called new Cipher and its
operating in crypto. So anyway, that's kind of how it
started and but what I'm doing right now is quite different and
that is because I actually become quite a heavy, defy user
starting from late 2018, I guess with Makers are and I always had
this problem of swapping between stable coils all the time
because I was doing that on coinbase and that was not quite
effective. And at the same time, I was
doing some some trading bots in this kind of created, the idea
how to swap between stable coins effectively and that's that what
started started curve finance. And in the beginning 20/20.
I've finished implementation of my algorithm in in Viper and the
basic UI and the started curve dot Phi.
And basically, what we have today is a continuation of that.
Maybe let's start by diving into curve directly here.
So do mine for people who are not familiar with curve.
Can you explain how curve works? First of all, from the
perspective of somebody who wants to trade and, you know,
let's say with your example of like, you know, swapping
different, swapping different, maybe stable coins.
Oh, right, right. Yeah.
So currently the primary purpose of of curve is exchanging
between two coins of the same denomination.
Most notably US dollar stable coins, like use DC and die, for
example, but also, there are BTC denominated coins.
So you can swap between BTC and BTC and even if denominated
coins for example, for example, if well really And you know,
state to theorem staked with Lido.
For example, that's also a popular use case.
So and basically you could you could swap for a reason of
what's a, what's a, if it's if you want to interact with
makers, all you probably won't die and if you have USD see,
it's probably a coin which is easy to redeem to your bank
account and that That could be one reason to swap.
Or for example if you want to go from your aetherium to stick to
theorem, you could also do it that way or maybe the other way
around. That's kind of from the from
Trader perspective. And on the other hand, there are
users who deposit on into curve pools, and they earn trading
fees, and also CRV tokens and maybe some subsidies by the
protocols who sponsor the pool, And that's kind of the yield you
get as a depositor in the pools. That's how the liquidity gets
there in the first place. Yeah, I should actually also add
this disclaimer here, which I meant to wish is that I do use
that as I've been with my company, kind of very involved
in lighter. So I'm you I'm doing exactly
that at the moment, right? Where I put a lot of my effort
into like I do and then got the stake it out and then put that
into the curve, pool between Eastern State ether so and have
a having that process also earn some CRV.
So have also some of the Just opens at this point.
Now with, I guess, one of the essential things around curve
right? Is that, you know, if you
compare it. So you know, you have basically
this function know where you your trading, not with a
counterparty, like so it is not like, did the counterparty is
kind of like a smart contract and then, there is a function
that determines the price can you talk a bit about how that
works with curved and what's special?
so, in this regard for curve, Yes.
So basically, what is common for many for many of the automatic
market makers is that you have some liquidity in all the coins
involved. And let's say you, when you swap
from coin, a to coin b as you the user buys a little bit of
coin be from the pool and the pool gets also more, of course,
a the price shifts a little bit, so that coin B, which gets
bought becomes a little bit more.
That's it. And then the so called bounding
curves, they describe how this pricing changes different,
protocols have different bonding curves.
For example, unit swap, to has constant product bonding curve,
which is where the pool basically rebalances, the
Holdings. What we did?
We kind of concentrated, liquidity around the price 1.0.
That's where the liquidity is mostly.
Needed but then it's kind of smoothly going down to as you
get away from from the price 1.0.
So basically when you are close to 1.0, you get the highest
depth of liquidity, but let's say, if the price changes a
little bit, let's say it becomes 1.01.
You have the depth being a little bit less and The Rock.
Boo parameters, which Define how tightly are you concentrated
around this 1.0 price different assets?
May need kind of different concentration of this.
It depends on the asset volatility.
For example, stable coins, like use DC and USD TR very, very
stable. So you can be very, very dense
around one price 1.0 and something like steak teeth is
expected to be much more volatile.
So, so, you we need to be to have liquidity a little bit more
spread out, but still much much tighter than kind of a universal
relationship, which unislope to social swap or balancer has How
did you come up with this design in the early days?
The stable swap paper. It seems like a very elegant
solution to specifically, like, low volatility pairs.
What was like the process from like ideation?
How did you realize this was a problem in the beginning because
you were working on new Cipher at the time.
And how did you go towards the design?
You have now? Yeah, as I said, the problem
itself is was kind of easy for me to figure because I was a
heavy defy user, and I always had this problem or swapping
between die and use DC pretty much.
So, that's that was one thing. But the question, how, how to
come up with a with this mathematical relationship?
It was interesting as well, because firstly, it was it
started from a graph. Like wandering curves can be
represented by graphs. So, for the simple constant
product idea which was already out.
You are, the graph is basically a hyperbolic, and I first
thought, like we that the part which is close to price, 1.0
should be flat and but not necessarily like completely
flat, because if it's completely flat, and then you kind of, you
have kind of in finite, Depth, so, and basically, I first I
started grabbing it on paper and then I started thinking what
would be the formula which corresponds to this graph.
And also this formula should be not very complex because if it's
too complex than I wouldn't be able to solve it in a smart
contract and not eat all the gas and yeah.
So that's basically how I came up with with the design and the
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And from what I kind of understand of Unis, lot V3, is
that it allows you to recreate any graph in price space,
including, you know, the stable sort of graph Yeah, in principle
correct? Yes, it does allow you to create
such graphs. Piece-by-piece something like a
spline where you basically users can create the pieces of this
point and deposit liquidity into into those pieces and in
principle, that's, that's actually good.
I actually had the same idea in early 2020 as well for volatile
pairs on. Till I had some other idea which
I'm currently implementing which I think is fully automated, so
it's better. But even like, if we talk about
stable coins, one key difference is that we are able to quickly
change these parameters without users redeposit in anything.
For example, imagine that you have one graph.
Well, just an example from from maybe a week ago.
Had liquidity A force take teeth with leader being let's say,
spread approximately within like plus minus 10% from the price
1.0. But it turns out that Ste if is
actually very very stable. So we are able to provide
liquidity, much better for it by concentrating it tighter and we
did didn't have to ask users to kind of do to redeposit
liquidity in To whatever ranges. We just made a doll.
Proposal, to increase this, this amplification coefficient how we
call it parameter by factor of five.
And over one week, this liquidity becomes Tighter by a
factor of 5. Basically, as we speak, it's it
does. So very great you lie in if I
remember correctly. 5,000 steps, that's absolutely kind of To the
user. So basically as we as we speak
in this episode, The liquidity in that pool becomes Tighter and
Tighter without transactions, becoming more expensive without
anyone redepositing anything anywhere.
So in principle of these analytical solutions, they
allowed to do that quite cheaply.
So they are superior in that. Regard to two units, what we
three approach, although I definitely can can see that.
That units will be three approaches allows for like, very
high levels of customers ability.
May be at the expense of being a bit less convenient for
liquidity providers, so they should be quite professional.
Sounds like Yeah, that is fallacious really good.
So I think it's not easy to wrap your head around you know this
entire like all the mating market makers and exactly how it
works right. But I think one one way that I
think it's interesting to conceptualize like why are
automated markets makers? Interesting is if you if you
take an exchange, traditional order Book Exchange like Finance
then they are of course, Mark market makers there and you know
these are like professional Firms right to the dodo, putting
maybe bit orders here and ask all this in and they're watching
other exchanges into updating them and they're providing
liquidity, that way and they're also earning money that way.
But you know I can't do that because I don't have to
knowledge infrastructure you know and so what you're what,
but then with curfew basically saying okay we have a program
that does it and anyone can give money to the program and now you
can be a market. Make sure anyone can be a market
maker and then actually with the unit swap thing you're almost
going into with the V3 thing, right?
It almost goes into a little bit of this hybrid thing where well,
anyone can provide money to the market makeup, but there's a lot
of parameters to choose and maybe to change and update so
that like you know you can do it better versus curvy still sort
of in the yeah. Yeah so if you explain units
what Three in these terms. It's almost like a traditional
like a traditional exchange but instead of having discrete
orders, you have a continuous or your book.
So instead of orders, which probably date back to, to, like
ancient times, where you had to write orders in the in an actual
paper order book, you, you can actually have them continuous
and and that's how it should have been when computers
appeared but that wasn't the case until units for three.
I guess. But really I think this is an
improvement over traditional order books but still like the
level of skill required to provide liquidity in general for
volatile pairs over there is I think the same.
So you kind of In traditional order books, you just had to put
I don't know a ladder or folders right to Sometimes and on Eunice
War III, you just have to spread liquidity from Price a to price.
Be for that, that's certainly an improvement.
But to like to, to figure, where to put your liquidity like that,
there is a considerable skill required.
And like, just to give you an example, imagine that I am
providing liquidity for aetherium, right?
What's a theorem price is at that a 3,000.
So and I've provided liquidity from now, three thousand to
three thousand and one hundred and it works well while with
your room was there, but then when price went up, I'm left
with with dollars. So, okay, I take dollars and
provide liquidity in a new price, but if I do that, I'm
kind of losing on only Theory. Mm going up and the same with
whether it going down. Let's say, imagine I provided
Pretty 84,000. And then it dropped to three
thousand. I am left with ethers which were
at around 4,000 made a little bit less and then I was back
holding those while the price drops to 3000 so I'm losing
again. So that's kind of what he what
happens if you do everything naively so it's a powerful tool
but naive liquidity provision probably doesn't apply to you
Mike. Make money over there.
So that's kind of that's a problem with the that but that's
also a problem with centralized exchanges and but yeah Market
making the firm's probably making money so they are
probably skillful skillful enough to to do that.
And I think they are the users that they would be the best
liquidity providers for Eunice. 4 3, Let's get to our sponsor
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Epicenter to learn more. I would love to expand a little
bit on this more. Generally, I listen to another
podcast with you where you said that you think, you know,
automated market makers. Are, you know, this kind of like
fundamental Improvement, fundamentally Superior to
traditional order book exchanges.
You kind of like, say, the similar thing here.
Can you explain why you think that's, because Basically, they
are pretty transparent in what's happening.
You pretty much know that they they will do the right thing
what they're programmed to do. But also from my observations
automated market makers can be, can be probably not worse than
what, traditional market makers called can do, while being not
custodial, so they can amass much The community and maybe it
may be traditional market. Makers.
Would argue that they are markets are more effective than
than Eunice walk to or balancer, which is true, but for cryptos.
But also, I think it's possible to do much, much better for
cryptos, at least. At least we will try to prove
it. In that vein, what do you see as
the long-term vision for curve? Where is curved and 5 years, 10
years. And what use cases is it is it
allowing, I think we're currently currently started with
stable players but I think if we go a little bit beyond that, we
probably would allow fully automatic creation of very
effective, crypto markets or foreign exchange markets.
And like who knows which like how much we can replace
traditional order book approaches.
But I think that's not quite can happen to a certain degree.
Got it. So do you see it?
Like kind of going into Unis Wolf's territory, little bit of
allowing any arbitrary exchange between any pair of tokens or
Yeah, I think that's that's of course a sensible thought, but
because you are talking about 5 and 10 years, we may talk about,
I don't know about stock markets about foreign exchanges about
like all sorts of exchanges which are known traditionally.
Because I think the story here is bigger than little one D5
Project work. Was the other, it's it's about
whole defy space, capturing the traditional Finance Market.
This is probably a good time to mention that.
I'm, you know, disclaimer also a curve user and and token holder
as well, and have been participating and following
along with this journey. Cool.
This is this is one of the things that I've also like
wandered about because we've automated market makers, you
know, like curving units who are like getting these like enormous
volumes. And when you've seen how they
have taken, you know really substantial market share at this
point from you. No centralized crypto exchanges
and no centralized crypto changes still like your good
products, right? That they work.
Well, like user-friendly can make an account easily.
Positive money easily like so much better than traditional
financial institutions, in many regards, but I still you seen on
chain. You have these automated market
makers, take substantial market share from that.
So I have also kind of wondered with like is is that at this
point this kind of like Breakthrough success of of
crypto and a blockchain that it has you know better Market.
Isms. And you know, whether that is
going to be the thing that will really sort of Drive the orgy,
inroads towards taking more market, share you know, from
traditional Financial systems, like you think that's okay.
So do you think there are going to be other drivers that will be
critical for this kind of transition?
One thing I would say that it's not necessarily indeed like that
blockchain activity kind of takes quite a bit of centralized
exchange market share. But also we've seen by Nance,
kind of successfully solving this problem with by Nan smart
chain, which is, which is, yes it is centralized But it is
centralized with the central Authority being financed and not
the services which are built over there.
So it's basically, if you do it on a centralized exchange, you
couldn't give some trading firm money to trade non-custodial,
and but on something like on a on an exchange chain, you
actually can do that. You can do like money to trade
to To some decentralized service and that makes a big difference
even if the chain is controlled by the exchange, and yep.
Still the theorem is better in like my view, but as we can see,
it's still quite successfully The Exchange chain can can get
some some bit of market share. So that's kind of the evolution
of that model. Awesome, wanted to shift, gears
a little bit to maybe a little bit of a different direction,
but seeing, you know, Swap and Sushi swap, how do you think
about your modes? What do you think about Fork
threat forks, and general or, you know, projects that are very
similar, like saddle? When you think about curves
long-term success? Yeah, there are, there are many
ways to establish this mode. One is, if you look at how
quickly Forks were created, it took some time to understand the
mechanism, how the market making works and on curve, it's, it was
a little bit harder to understand that than constant
product. And this gives a little bit of
time to Like before Forks starts appearing, I think probably
units of three because it's quite a bit less understood by
people who maybe who my Fork. So maybe it has some of this
mode as well at the moment. Another way is probably good
Takin economics. I think, I think our talking
economics is probably good for for kind of keeping the
competition away as much as possible.
And another thing is, it's probably, it's probably good to
allow the forks, but in such a way that they benefit the
protocol, I tried to do that with with a few Forks, we'll see
how it goes. But yeah, that's that's another
way. So yeah, but it's still kind of
experimentation phase. So we are looking at a different
ways to either, preserve the dominance of the protocol or to
get to get it done. So that if Forks appear, that
the same people pretty much owned part of the fork.
Ex stuff like that and we will see what works out.
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See, mention token economics, as, as in mode for curve, like,
what is it about? You know, the curve token
economics, that you think, gives that kind of mode.
Well, I think it's kind of probably quite easy to
understand in a naive way. You can have pools learning all
the fees for themselves. So let's say you deposit into
the pool and all the exchange fees go to your as a liquidity
provider. But, you know, Market is not
very stable. So sometimes these fees can go
up by a factor of 10, then drop down that we've seen that.
So It's good to introduce some sort of inertia there and we
introduced that by doing basically talking emissions.
So some of the token emissions, go to the pool liquidity
providers, but some of the fees go to to the doll, which means
basically the talking holders or well talking lockers if to, to
be more exact. So we have this, this Loop Oop
where CRV gets fees. And those who would have, who
basically paid parts of those fees, they get CRV and if the
volume trading volume goes down, temporarily well users.
Still get CRV. But when it goes up and see
where we get small fees. So this kind of this allows the
protocol to operate with a higher long-term stability.
You know, we still would need to see how it goes over and over a
bear Market. We still haven't seen that.
Yeah cuz you basically you have to Feast at the like volatile
and then you have the curvy words and the curvy words are
based just on like the volume in the pool as opposed to the
trading volume. No, actually not that curve
rewards are split proportionally between liquidity providers.
And the amount of cover words is determined by the Dow with
so-called wait voting. But anyway, these the speed of
cover words coming in, doesn't depend on the volume which
happens in the pool but really, it's voting over the Dow which
indirectly is inspired by How much volume the pool is making.
So basically imagine that some pool is very popular and it gets
a lot of trading volume. And then, let's say down,
participants say, oh, looks like this pole is area.
This pool is airing, quite good money, for the Dow.
We probably should vote for this pool to get more CRV.
So if it gets more CRV, more users will put money into that
pool. And, you know, it will get even
more volume because there is a high demand and we get more
fees. So, that's kind of how it works.
It's not a very fast feedback but that's actually good.
Because this makes basically returns for liquidity.
Providers. A little bit more stable.
Kind of going back to a little bit of an early discussion that
we had earlier was about kind of the future of curve.
What's the next step? Like when do you think that
you'll have like kind of your response to yunusov V3 or curvy
to or do you have any plans currently can give us a sneak
peek of what might be in that as well?
Well, I guess it's not changing anything for stable coin pools.
They say stable coin, pools are probably good as they are.
But we probably would need to expand into different asset
classes. And actually, the work over
there is very close to to launch in that.
So so that's yeah. Basically expanding too,
volatile Pairs. And we want to do it in fully
automatic. Mated way.
So not requiring liquidity providers to do that much of the
manual work, and it's a challenging thing.
So we will see how it works. And it's challenging because you
probably make find a lot of research where people tried to
to do automatic market-making in like non defy world.
And it's it's hard. It's hard to do effectively and
we kind of what that research tells you is that it's almost
impossible to do to do it too much more effectively than what
we've seen with units for v2 or balancer, right.
That we want to kind of kind of defy this this common wisdom
which existed before and and show that it's actually possible
to do it much more effectively than before Essentially saying
you saying that. So I was under the impression
that actually automate market makers have only really been
used in crypto and in defy. But so have there been no
significant usage of research into a MM outside and in rural
areas, Of course, of course, I mean they are called trading
Bots and trading Bots are quite quite there, but you don't
really want those trading Bots who I don't know, who look at
some crocodile figure on the graph and decide that it's time
to buy. But you actually, you're more,
think about trading Bots, who create markets and there was,
I'm sure market-making firms use those That's just I guess that's
the way but also there was a lot of public research about that
and if you if you read that you probably may get an impression
that it's it's super hard to create anything useful.
And yeah we will we will see if we can do better than all of
that research. If what we created is better.
Another question that I had was, what is your thesis on good
governance? So, you know, the curve token is
both a way to incentivize good behavior in the protocol but
also like fundamentally governance token and different
projects have taken different kind of views of what good
governance is like. I think, you know, you know,
swap is kind of like trying to governance minimize and make
sure that any governance improvements are really Vital,
and key, and important, and other, protocols may be urine,
are much more kind of move fast and break things.
It seems what do you see for curve?
Specifically, as like ideal governance and the ideal Dow
structure in the long run? Well, I mean the current doll is
specifically designed to to be a good doll in the long run.
One of the ideas is that you probably want to the voice of
long-term chocolate holders, rather than rather than those
who can buy token, vote for something and then immediately
immediately exit. So that's why we have so called
volt lock mechanism, where you vote lock CRV And you get, you
know, the higher governance power, the longer you look for
and you can look for up to up to four years and that's what most
people actually do. And we kind of think that
participants in the governance. They actually aligned with the
future of that platform. The long-term another thing is
that our system is quite modular.
So you You can replace certain modules based on the governance
vote, but at the same time, you cannot change the code.
So you just in Governor's, even if governance wanted to, it
wouldn't be able to take a users users funds.
So, use our funds are sacred. You like even governance can
cannot even plausibly. Get to those, but governance can
make Visions about like what I do including future pools and
some some modular functionality, which we allow not everything we
even used. So, some things are kind of
programmed into be used in the future.
So it's a kind of a mix of immutability and flexibility
like up Altamont. Ultimate flexibility would be
replacing every any code, but we kind of I think it's unsafe to
do even for the governance. So we are taking the approach
where the code is immutable. And you just, you know,
governance votes for new things and users can think whether they
want to ape into into new things or not.
What about the curve like community and ecosystem today?
You know, what does it look like?
Is there a lot of participation or people?
You know, are the only two places to make like governance
proposals as well? And like, what's your vision for
how you want the curve ecosystem to evolve, human governance
wise? Yeah.
Governance wise or just sort of in, you know, in the the way you
want, the community to organize and to Evolved to protocol as
well. Well for evolving the product
call, it would be, of course, good to expand to other Chains.
It's a good question. If governance can expand their
but pieces but you know having different pools on other chains
and you know having all the money flows going across chains,
that's definitely possible and that's definitely something but
what governance can vote for and yes.
So I think that's one thing. Would you see what you see CRV
having the kind of same function even if curve was deployed on on
on several chains? Yes.
Yes, but I think there is there still should be one place where
all things concentrate currently, it's only theorem
right? But like let's say we can have
pools on but we actually do have already pulls on a pool on
polygon. And also couple of pulls on
Phantom, and we just got admin fees from polygon back to curve
down, and it worked, and we can get CRV, from, from etherium
two, polygons in. That can be, can be controlled
by the doll. Like how much that pool gets
dark and leave on a theorem, but the pool is still over there on
polygon. So that's an example.
Example, and this sort of scheme can work with multiple chains.
Multiple layer 2, s, or like whatever will be used for
scaling etherium. Shifting gears a little bit
wanted to talk to you about your thoughts on like the kind of
security of curve. You know, this is a long-term
project with billions of dollars I think like more than seven
billion dollars of tvl. So how do you think about
security and especially in like the decentralized context were
code is being written by many different people.
How do you think about security and ensuring that?
The code is always extremely high quality readable and and
secure. Yeah, that's that's a good
question. We took probably approach
different from what some projects have.
So from our observation, most of the errors in the code are
coming from the developer, right?
So it's really up to the developer to get the good cold
quality. Yes, you can say that Auditors
can help to get code quality. Better.
That's true to some degree but also Auditors, don't see
absolutely everything and they can miss things.
So how to prevent that, I think the best way is to have all the
code very, very well readable so that like it's, you know, the
focus should be on readability and for that, we use Viper
language because like wipers much much more readable than
solidity by Has at least and that ensures that we ourselves
can can see can see things and our code still sometimes.
We don't see them immediately but we cannot notice them much
faster than if everything was in solidity.
So that's one of the things. And of course, salinity is a
much more mature language which with more Also, in that regard,
one could argue that it's as a language, it could be safer.
But given that most pairs they don't actually come from the
compiler. Most errors come from humans,
the focus should be on readability and of course which
true for all projects there should be very good test
coverage. So automatic testing is is the
Mast for smart contracts. In fact, I think Smart contract
code takes, maybe 5% of all the lines of code, maybe less, and
everything else, is automated tests.
So for those we actually do quite Advanced things with
brownie. For example, you could you could
basically and, you know, it all the all the actions Which smart
contract or maybe external contracts can do.
And then you can let this tool to select different actions.
At random with random parameters and explore this parameter space
trying to find some violations or basically some errors.
Something, which you don't want in your behavior.
And if that happens, it's kind of raises a flag and you say,
oh, there is something in the code which we need to fix,
right? And I think this way actually is
able to come up with flash loan attacks for For example, like
this sandwich attacks you can they actually simple.
So I think I think proper automated tooling can find them
automatically One last question, I wanted to ask was kind of
legal and Regulatory, you know, how do you think about the legal
and Regulatory questions around curve?
Whether it comes to, like, Securities laws for like, curved
token itself. I'll, you know, allowing people
from different jurisdictions to use the protocol and also just
like, how do you think? Like what are the biggest risk?
You see to like General, defy regulatory landscape as well.
Rod rod. Yeah, so that's that's a very
good question as well. The rod different themes, which
are going in regulatory space in the past.
It was mostly activity by a sec and security tokens.
And I think with CRV about at least in my opinion, is quite
simple useless. Are we talking itself is not
doing any function, which is looking like a security, but if
you lock it, You get some something called ve C RV, which
is, which allows you to vote in the Dow it receives profits from
the Dow. So it's kind of well feels like
a security but we CRV is not movable.
You cannot move it. You cannot trade it.
It's like only sitting in your wallet and when it's unlocks
when it becomes CRV, again, then it doesn't have that
functionality. So Some in my opinion we ecrv is
a security but because it's not movable it's automatically it
automatically. Satisfies all the security laws
and CRV itself is just I think utility talking, but yeah, but
sec, I think is quite friendly to crypto projects these days.
There is also a question about into it, like International
money, transmission initiatives. Like five that that could be
tricky for defy because they're trying to regulate what what is
not very much possible to regulate.
Probably some common ground will be found that over time.
But yeah, so like for example, if they say that all projects,
should should filter users or whatever, it's just not possible
to do with everything deployed. So everything deployed just In
use to exist and nothing can change that they could as well
called italic and ask him to do that and he couldn't do
anything, right? So if we think from from the
basics of what are the goals of that, the goals are to protect
users and to prevent criminal activity when it comes to
protecting users. I think the biggest threat in
Defy is very different from traditional Financial World in
traditional Financial world. The biggest risk is Counterparty
risk. So let's say, basically, if you
put money in a bank, how can you make sure that this bank doesn't
run away with your money? Of course, very heavy, final
Financial regulations are there to ensure that with defy if well
it's of course, a risk, if it's a custodial protocol, if if the
team has admin Keys which allowed to take the money, but
if it's not the case, the biggest risk is actually Really
the code quality. So I and I think eventually we
will see a lot of regulations around the code quality and how
the projects can ensure that users are safe in that on that
front and with criminal activity.
That's actually also interesting because actually block chains
are very transparent and it's fairly easy to see where
everything goes and that Probably doesn't make
cryptocurrencies the best, the best tool of criminals, they do
try to use that and they many of them fail at that and I think at
the moment at the moment, cryptocurrency is involve less
of a fraction of criminal related transactions than
traditional Financial system or at least I've seen that kind of
information published. Anything else that you kind of
want to adhere you want users to know about curve, or before we
we sort of wrap up. I think, I think we're quite
covered everything. And yeah, I think it will be
pretty exciting time. Now, we have a bunch of new
stuff to publish and yeah. If if the listeners can follow
that, they probably will hear quite a lot of interesting
things. So cool.
How do I potential listeners and users?
How do people get started and learn more?
Of course, they can go to Curves of fun.
Just starts using it. We have also resources that
curve that Phi with, with all the guides call to use curve
with for one other purpose that I think those those would be the
best places to start. Cool.
Thanks so much, Michael. Thank you for joining us on this
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