1 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Hi and welcome to episode of this is episode 391 with guest 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,200 Michael agar off. So I'm Brian Crane and I'm here 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,800 with my co-host CK. Now, before we going to talk 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,400 about Mike with Michael about curve Finance, which is one of 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,000 the automated The market maker, protocols has gotten the most 6 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,100 traction. We want to spend a minute to 7 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:39,000 mention a few sponsors. So there's pair Swap and /. 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,500 Swap is a great way to trade tokens on chain pairs up. 9 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:45,700 Just came out with a big update and it's even faster more 10 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:47,800 liquid. So it's cheaper than unit Swap 11 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:51,600 and comes with a new gas token and can cut your gas fees by up 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,800 to 50%. So Paris was also now multi 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,200 chain and has expanded polygon and by nine smart chain. 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,900 So start trading at Paris robbed IO / epicenter and second 15 00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:06,400 Solana, so Salon as the Next Generation, blockchain with 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,300 lightning-fast blocks and fees less than a cent per 17 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:11,900 transaction. Scalability is perhaps the 18 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:15,700 single biggest challenge preventing crypto from becoming 19 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:18,400 the backbone of the world's Financial system today. 20 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,800 And Solana May well be the best solution we have this point. 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,400 So, go to salon.com epicenter and learn more about how to get 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,200 involved in the Solana ecosystem. 23 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:32,700 And the final one Exodus so exit. 24 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:36,000 This is an easy-to-use wallet which suppose hundreds of assets 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,900 and has native apps for all platforms, including IOS and 26 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:42,700 Android. It's a fully non-custodial 27 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:44,900 wallet. They are firm Believers in that. 28 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:50,200 Not your keys, not your coins Mantra, so go to Exodus.com and 29 00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:54,200 give it a try. Now if that let's go into our 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,900 episode. So Michael, it's such a pleasure 31 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:59,300 to have you. Thanks for coming on. 32 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:01,900 Maybe just share a little bit background about yourself. 33 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:06,000 Like what's what's been your journey and especially kind of 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,000 like you journey to becoming involved in the crypto space. 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,800 So you're basically my crypto Journey started in late 2013 36 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,200 with by and little bit of Bitcoin. 37 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,500 At the time I was doing a postdoc and physics after 38 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:29,000 receiving PhD in physics and shortly. 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,300 After I actually went to the United States to work in, tech 40 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:38,300 industry at LinkedIn and the time and I've learned a lot of a 41 00:02:38,308 --> 00:02:41,900 lot about crypto at that time as well. 42 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,500 And and actually started the company which it was not doing 43 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:51,800 crypto called 0 DB which is now called new Cipher and its 44 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,400 operating in crypto. So anyway, that's kind of how it 45 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,600 started and but what I'm doing right now is quite different and 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,900 that is because I actually become quite a heavy, defy user 47 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:15,300 starting from late 2018, I guess with Makers are and I always had 48 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:19,700 this problem of swapping between stable coils all the time 49 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:23,400 because I was doing that on coinbase and that was not quite 50 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,100 effective. And at the same time, I was 51 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:31,900 doing some some trading bots in this kind of created, the idea 52 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:37,600 how to swap between stable coins effectively and that's that what 53 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:43,300 started started curve finance. And in the beginning 20/20. 54 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:50,400 I've finished implementation of my algorithm in in Viper and the 55 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,000 basic UI and the started curve dot Phi. 56 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,400 And basically, what we have today is a continuation of that. 57 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,300 Maybe let's start by diving into curve directly here. 58 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:08,700 So do mine for people who are not familiar with curve. 59 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:12,000 Can you explain how curve works? First of all, from the 60 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,400 perspective of somebody who wants to trade and, you know, 61 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,500 let's say with your example of like, you know, swapping 62 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:22,300 different, swapping different, maybe stable coins. 63 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Oh, right, right. Yeah. 64 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,000 So currently the primary purpose of of curve is exchanging 65 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,100 between two coins of the same denomination. 66 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,900 Most notably US dollar stable coins, like use DC and die, for 67 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:43,000 example, but also, there are BTC denominated coins. 68 00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:47,900 So you can swap between BTC and BTC and even if denominated 69 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:54,700 coins for example, for example, if well really And you know, 70 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:57,900 state to theorem staked with Lido. 71 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,500 For example, that's also a popular use case. 72 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:08,200 So and basically you could you could swap for a reason of 73 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,200 what's a, what's a, if it's if you want to interact with 74 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,900 makers, all you probably won't die and if you have USD see, 75 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:21,900 it's probably a coin which is easy to redeem to your bank 76 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:25,400 account and that That could be one reason to swap. 77 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:30,600 Or for example if you want to go from your aetherium to stick to 78 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,800 theorem, you could also do it that way or maybe the other way 79 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,400 around. That's kind of from the from 80 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,900 Trader perspective. And on the other hand, there are 81 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:45,700 users who deposit on into curve pools, and they earn trading 82 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:51,700 fees, and also CRV tokens and maybe some subsidies by the 83 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:57,000 protocols who sponsor the pool, And that's kind of the yield you 84 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,400 get as a depositor in the pools. That's how the liquidity gets 85 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:07,100 there in the first place. Yeah, I should actually also add 86 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,900 this disclaimer here, which I meant to wish is that I do use 87 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,500 that as I've been with my company, kind of very involved 88 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,600 in lighter. So I'm you I'm doing exactly 89 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,800 that at the moment, right? Where I put a lot of my effort 90 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,400 into like I do and then got the stake it out and then put that 91 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,300 into the curve, pool between Eastern State ether so and have 92 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:33,300 a having that process also earn some CRV. 93 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,100 So have also some of the Just opens at this point. 94 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:43,100 Now with, I guess, one of the essential things around curve 95 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:45,200 right? Is that, you know, if you 96 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,800 compare it. So you know, you have basically 97 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,900 this function know where you your trading, not with a 98 00:06:50,907 --> 00:06:55,600 counterparty, like so it is not like, did the counterparty is 99 00:06:55,608 --> 00:06:59,200 kind of like a smart contract and then, there is a function 100 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,700 that determines the price can you talk a bit about how that 101 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:06,800 works with curved and what's special? 102 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:12,000 so, in this regard for curve, Yes. 103 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,600 So basically, what is common for many for many of the automatic 104 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:21,300 market makers is that you have some liquidity in all the coins 105 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:23,800 involved. And let's say you, when you swap 106 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,000 from coin, a to coin b as you the user buys a little bit of 107 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,800 coin be from the pool and the pool gets also more, of course, 108 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,200 a the price shifts a little bit, so that coin B, which gets 109 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,800 bought becomes a little bit more. 110 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,800 That's it. And then the so called bounding 111 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,400 curves, they describe how this pricing changes different, 112 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,200 protocols have different bonding curves. 113 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,600 For example, unit swap, to has constant product bonding curve, 114 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:58,400 which is where the pool basically rebalances, the 115 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,000 Holdings. What we did? 116 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:07,000 We kind of concentrated, liquidity around the price 1.0. 117 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:09,700 That's where the liquidity is mostly. 118 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:16,200 Needed but then it's kind of smoothly going down to as you 119 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,400 get away from from the price 1.0. 120 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,800 So basically when you are close to 1.0, you get the highest 121 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,100 depth of liquidity, but let's say, if the price changes a 122 00:08:31,108 --> 00:08:34,000 little bit, let's say it becomes 1.01. 123 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,799 You have the depth being a little bit less and The Rock. 124 00:08:40,299 --> 00:08:44,900 Boo parameters, which Define how tightly are you concentrated 125 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:48,500 around this 1.0 price different assets? 126 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,400 May need kind of different concentration of this. 127 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,700 It depends on the asset volatility. 128 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:59,400 For example, stable coins, like use DC and USD TR very, very 129 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,600 stable. So you can be very, very dense 130 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,100 around one price 1.0 and something like steak teeth is 131 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,600 expected to be much more volatile. 132 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,900 So, so, you we need to be to have liquidity a little bit more 133 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:19,800 spread out, but still much much tighter than kind of a universal 134 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:27,200 relationship, which unislope to social swap or balancer has How 135 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,000 did you come up with this design in the early days? 136 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,700 The stable swap paper. It seems like a very elegant 137 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:40,100 solution to specifically, like, low volatility pairs. 138 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:42,700 What was like the process from like ideation? 139 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:46,500 How did you realize this was a problem in the beginning because 140 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,000 you were working on new Cipher at the time. 141 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,600 And how did you go towards the design? 142 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,000 You have now? Yeah, as I said, the problem 143 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,300 itself is was kind of easy for me to figure because I was a 144 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:04,300 heavy defy user, and I always had this problem or swapping 145 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:07,000 between die and use DC pretty much. 146 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:13,800 So, that's that was one thing. But the question, how, how to 147 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,200 come up with a with this mathematical relationship? 148 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,800 It was interesting as well, because firstly, it was it 149 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,800 started from a graph. Like wandering curves can be 150 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,500 represented by graphs. So, for the simple constant 151 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:33,100 product idea which was already out. 152 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:38,300 You are, the graph is basically a hyperbolic, and I first 153 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:42,100 thought, like we that the part which is close to price, 1.0 154 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:46,700 should be flat and but not necessarily like completely 155 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:51,500 flat, because if it's completely flat, and then you kind of, you 156 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:57,500 have kind of in finite, Depth, so, and basically, I first I 157 00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:01,100 started grabbing it on paper and then I started thinking what 158 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:04,800 would be the formula which corresponds to this graph. 159 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:09,200 And also this formula should be not very complex because if it's 160 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,300 too complex than I wouldn't be able to solve it in a smart 161 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:16,000 contract and not eat all the gas and yeah. 162 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,300 So that's basically how I came up with with the design and the 163 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:25,200 formula for this. So when you're looking for a 164 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,500 flight, you go to a flight aggregator to see all the 165 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:32,200 different places where you can buy the fly to get all the 166 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,200 options and make sure you get the best price for your travel 167 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,000 plans. And when you're making a defy 168 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,100 swap, just do the same and use para swap. 169 00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:45,500 It beats the market prices across all the major indexes, 170 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:48,400 because it Aggregates them and thanks to their network of 171 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,400 professional market makers. You get zero slippage on your 172 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,400 trades so they choose Pushed a huge update that's even faster. 173 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,100 More liquid. Thanks to a brand new. 174 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:02,300 Algorithm / swap is now multi chain and has expanded polygon 175 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:05,100 and bind and smart chain. So go and check it out. 176 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:09,300 Give Paris swap at try, at Paris op dot IO, / epicenter. 177 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:16,500 And from what I kind of understand of Unis, lot V3, is 178 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:20,800 that it allows you to recreate any graph in price space, 179 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:25,200 including, you know, the stable sort of graph Yeah, in principle 180 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,800 correct? Yes, it does allow you to create 181 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,100 such graphs. Piece-by-piece something like a 182 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:38,900 spline where you basically users can create the pieces of this 183 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:43,600 point and deposit liquidity into into those pieces and in 184 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,000 principle, that's, that's actually good. 185 00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:52,600 I actually had the same idea in early 2020 as well for volatile 186 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,000 pairs on. Till I had some other idea which 187 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,600 I'm currently implementing which I think is fully automated, so 188 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,100 it's better. But even like, if we talk about 189 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:11,100 stable coins, one key difference is that we are able to quickly 190 00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:15,600 change these parameters without users redeposit in anything. 191 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,700 For example, imagine that you have one graph. 192 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,200 Well, just an example from from maybe a week ago. 193 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:28,400 Had liquidity A force take teeth with leader being let's say, 194 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:34,500 spread approximately within like plus minus 10% from the price 195 00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:38,600 1.0. But it turns out that Ste if is 196 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,800 actually very very stable. So we are able to provide 197 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,200 liquidity, much better for it by concentrating it tighter and we 198 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,800 did didn't have to ask users to kind of do to redeposit 199 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,900 liquidity in To whatever ranges. We just made a doll. 200 00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:01,400 Proposal, to increase this, this amplification coefficient how we 201 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800 call it parameter by factor of five. 202 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:11,600 And over one week, this liquidity becomes Tighter by a 203 00:14:11,608 --> 00:14:15,800 factor of 5. Basically, as we speak, it's it 204 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,100 does. So very great you lie in if I 205 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:24,000 remember correctly. 5,000 steps, that's absolutely kind of To the 206 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,400 user. So basically as we as we speak 207 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,900 in this episode, The liquidity in that pool becomes Tighter and 208 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:34,800 Tighter without transactions, becoming more expensive without 209 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,000 anyone redepositing anything anywhere. 210 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,500 So in principle of these analytical solutions, they 211 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,400 allowed to do that quite cheaply. 212 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,500 So they are superior in that. Regard to two units, what we 213 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:53,600 three approach, although I definitely can can see that. 214 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,500 That units will be three approaches allows for like, very 215 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,300 high levels of customers ability. 216 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,000 May be at the expense of being a bit less convenient for 217 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,100 liquidity providers, so they should be quite professional. 218 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,300 Sounds like Yeah, that is fallacious really good. 219 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,900 So I think it's not easy to wrap your head around you know this 220 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:20,200 entire like all the mating market makers and exactly how it 221 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,200 works right. But I think one one way that I 222 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,700 think it's interesting to conceptualize like why are 223 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:30,800 automated markets makers? Interesting is if you if you 224 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,500 take an exchange, traditional order Book Exchange like Finance 225 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:39,400 then they are of course, Mark market makers there and you know 226 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,200 these are like professional Firms right to the dodo, putting 227 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,900 maybe bit orders here and ask all this in and they're watching 228 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:49,200 other exchanges into updating them and they're providing 229 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,300 liquidity, that way and they're also earning money that way. 230 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,600 But you know I can't do that because I don't have to 231 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:02,600 knowledge infrastructure you know and so what you're what, 232 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,100 but then with curfew basically saying okay we have a program 233 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,900 that does it and anyone can give money to the program and now you 234 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:12,000 can be a market. Make sure anyone can be a market 235 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:18,100 maker and then actually with the unit swap thing you're almost 236 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:20,600 going into with the V3 thing, right? 237 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,300 It almost goes into a little bit of this hybrid thing where well, 238 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:29,200 anyone can provide money to the market makeup, but there's a lot 239 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,500 of parameters to choose and maybe to change and update so 240 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:35,700 that like you know you can do it better versus curvy still sort 241 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,400 of in the yeah. Yeah so if you explain units 242 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,300 what Three in these terms. It's almost like a traditional 243 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:50,300 like a traditional exchange but instead of having discrete 244 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,100 orders, you have a continuous or your book. 245 00:16:53,500 --> 00:17:00,800 So instead of orders, which probably date back to, to, like 246 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,200 ancient times, where you had to write orders in the in an actual 247 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,300 paper order book, you, you can actually have them continuous 248 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:14,500 and and that's how it should have been when computers 249 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:18,000 appeared but that wasn't the case until units for three. 250 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,900 I guess. But really I think this is an 251 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,300 improvement over traditional order books but still like the 252 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:29,300 level of skill required to provide liquidity in general for 253 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:32,500 volatile pairs over there is I think the same. 254 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,100 So you kind of In traditional order books, you just had to put 255 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:43,700 I don't know a ladder or folders right to Sometimes and on Eunice 256 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:48,200 War III, you just have to spread liquidity from Price a to price. 257 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,000 Be for that, that's certainly an improvement. 258 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:57,100 But to like to, to figure, where to put your liquidity like that, 259 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:59,900 there is a considerable skill required. 260 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,100 And like, just to give you an example, imagine that I am 261 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:07,200 providing liquidity for aetherium, right? 262 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,500 What's a theorem price is at that a 3,000. 263 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:15,600 So and I've provided liquidity from now, three thousand to 264 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,000 three thousand and one hundred and it works well while with 265 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,700 your room was there, but then when price went up, I'm left 266 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:28,700 with with dollars. So, okay, I take dollars and 267 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,500 provide liquidity in a new price, but if I do that, I'm 268 00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:37,700 kind of losing on only Theory. Mm going up and the same with 269 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,500 whether it going down. Let's say, imagine I provided 270 00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,500 Pretty 84,000. And then it dropped to three 271 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,300 thousand. I am left with ethers which were 272 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:54,100 at around 4,000 made a little bit less and then I was back 273 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:59,300 holding those while the price drops to 3000 so I'm losing 274 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,300 again. So that's kind of what he what 275 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:05,600 happens if you do everything naively so it's a powerful tool 276 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,000 but naive liquidity provision probably doesn't apply to you 277 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:12,600 Mike. Make money over there. 278 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,500 So that's kind of that's a problem with the that but that's 279 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:22,500 also a problem with centralized exchanges and but yeah Market 280 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:25,400 making the firm's probably making money so they are 281 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,700 probably skillful skillful enough to to do that. 282 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:33,900 And I think they are the users that they would be the best 283 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:39,400 liquidity providers for Eunice. 4 3, Let's get to our sponsor 284 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,100 Solana now. This is specialized for me to 285 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,900 read because I've been in deep supporter of this project since 286 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:49,200 meeting this Lana team back in 2018, I invest personally in the 287 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,000 project and my company course, one is super deeply involved in 288 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,800 this Lana, you can System including running the biggest 289 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,500 validator. So, what's so cool about Solana? 290 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,700 Well, we all know that scalability is the single most 291 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,600 important issue facing the blockchain industry today. 292 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,000 And to Solana, blockchain is an amazing solution for it. 293 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,500 The network supports thousands of transactions per second with 294 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,800 With 400 Milli second block times and over, 500 validators. 295 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 The special thing about Solana is also that it's not a sharded 296 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,100 blockchain, it's a signal blockchain, hyper optimized for 297 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:25,000 performance. So that makes it really easy to 298 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,800 maintain composability between all of the apps on Solana. 299 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,300 So that they work together seamlessly now and forever. 300 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,200 There's a lot of ecosystem is growing at a rapid pace and it's 301 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,000 a great place to build your project or just get involved 302 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,300 with the community. So go to salon.com. 303 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:46,300 Epicenter to learn more. I would love to expand a little 304 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,100 bit on this more. Generally, I listen to another 305 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,600 podcast with you where you said that you think, you know, 306 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,700 automated market makers. Are, you know, this kind of like 307 00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:59,300 fundamental Improvement, fundamentally Superior to 308 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:00,700 traditional order book exchanges. 309 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:02,800 You kind of like, say, the similar thing here. 310 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:08,900 Can you explain why you think that's, because Basically, they 311 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:11,400 are pretty transparent in what's happening. 312 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:17,100 You pretty much know that they they will do the right thing 313 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:22,400 what they're programmed to do. But also from my observations 314 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:29,600 automated market makers can be, can be probably not worse than 315 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:34,300 what, traditional market makers called can do, while being not 316 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:39,700 custodial, so they can amass much The community and maybe it 317 00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:41,100 may be traditional market. Makers. 318 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:47,600 Would argue that they are markets are more effective than 319 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:54,900 than Eunice walk to or balancer, which is true, but for cryptos. 320 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:59,400 But also, I think it's possible to do much, much better for 321 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,300 cryptos, at least. At least we will try to prove 322 00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:06,000 it. In that vein, what do you see as 323 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:13,300 the long-term vision for curve? Where is curved and 5 years, 10 324 00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:17,300 years. And what use cases is it is it 325 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:22,300 allowing, I think we're currently currently started with 326 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:28,300 stable players but I think if we go a little bit beyond that, we 327 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:32,100 probably would allow fully automatic creation of very 328 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:36,700 effective, crypto markets or foreign exchange markets. 329 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:44,200 And like who knows which like how much we can replace 330 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,200 traditional order book approaches. 331 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,700 But I think that's not quite can happen to a certain degree. 332 00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:57,600 Got it. So do you see it? 333 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,300 Like kind of going into Unis Wolf's territory, little bit of 334 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:08,100 allowing any arbitrary exchange between any pair of tokens or 335 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:14,600 Yeah, I think that's that's of course a sensible thought, but 336 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,700 because you are talking about 5 and 10 years, we may talk about, 337 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:26,700 I don't know about stock markets about foreign exchanges about 338 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:31,000 like all sorts of exchanges which are known traditionally. 339 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:38,100 Because I think the story here is bigger than little one D5 340 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:41,100 Project work. Was the other, it's it's about 341 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:45,100 whole defy space, capturing the traditional Finance Market. 342 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,400 This is probably a good time to mention that. 343 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,600 I'm, you know, disclaimer also a curve user and and token holder 344 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200 as well, and have been participating and following 345 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,200 along with this journey. Cool. 346 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:06,500 This is this is one of the things that I've also like 347 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:10,400 wandered about because we've automated market makers, you 348 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,700 know, like curving units who are like getting these like enormous 349 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,500 volumes. And when you've seen how they 350 00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:19,800 have taken, you know really substantial market share at this 351 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,000 point from you. No centralized crypto exchanges 352 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:26,800 and no centralized crypto changes still like your good 353 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,500 products, right? That they work. 354 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,400 Well, like user-friendly can make an account easily. 355 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,300 Positive money easily like so much better than traditional 356 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:40,100 financial institutions, in many regards, but I still you seen on 357 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:42,900 chain. You have these automated market 358 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:46,200 makers, take substantial market share from that. 359 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:52,800 So I have also kind of wondered with like is is that at this 360 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,000 point this kind of like Breakthrough success of of 361 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000 crypto and a blockchain that it has you know better Market. 362 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:03,400 Isms. And you know, whether that is 363 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,400 going to be the thing that will really sort of Drive the orgy, 364 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,800 inroads towards taking more market, share you know, from 365 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,400 traditional Financial systems, like you think that's okay. 366 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,200 So do you think there are going to be other drivers that will be 367 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,100 critical for this kind of transition? 368 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,400 One thing I would say that it's not necessarily indeed like that 369 00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:34,000 blockchain activity kind of takes quite a bit of centralized 370 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,300 exchange market share. But also we've seen by Nance, 371 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:42,500 kind of successfully solving this problem with by Nan smart 372 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:49,600 chain, which is, which is, yes it is centralized But it is 373 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,600 centralized with the central Authority being financed and not 374 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,000 the services which are built over there. 375 00:25:56,300 --> 00:26:01,900 So it's basically, if you do it on a centralized exchange, you 376 00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:07,600 couldn't give some trading firm money to trade non-custodial, 377 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,900 and but on something like on a on an exchange chain, you 378 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:17,500 actually can do that. You can do like money to trade 379 00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:23,700 to To some decentralized service and that makes a big difference 380 00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:28,000 even if the chain is controlled by the exchange, and yep. 381 00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:34,600 Still the theorem is better in like my view, but as we can see, 382 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:41,300 it's still quite successfully The Exchange chain can can get 383 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:46,100 some some bit of market share. So that's kind of the evolution 384 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,800 of that model. Awesome, wanted to shift, gears 385 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,000 a little bit to maybe a little bit of a different direction, 386 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:58,800 but seeing, you know, Swap and Sushi swap, how do you think 387 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,200 about your modes? What do you think about Fork 388 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,200 threat forks, and general or, you know, projects that are very 389 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,500 similar, like saddle? When you think about curves 390 00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:16,900 long-term success? Yeah, there are, there are many 391 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:24,300 ways to establish this mode. One is, if you look at how 392 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:30,800 quickly Forks were created, it took some time to understand the 393 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,700 mechanism, how the market making works and on curve, it's, it was 394 00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:39,200 a little bit harder to understand that than constant 395 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,400 product. And this gives a little bit of 396 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,900 time to Like before Forks starts appearing, I think probably 397 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:53,500 units of three because it's quite a bit less understood by 398 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:59,200 people who maybe who my Fork. So maybe it has some of this 399 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,800 mode as well at the moment. Another way is probably good 400 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:10,000 Takin economics. I think, I think our talking 401 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,300 economics is probably good for for kind of keeping the 402 00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:18,400 competition away as much as possible. 403 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,900 And another thing is, it's probably, it's probably good to 404 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:30,000 allow the forks, but in such a way that they benefit the 405 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,200 protocol, I tried to do that with with a few Forks, we'll see 406 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,500 how it goes. But yeah, that's that's another 407 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,100 way. So yeah, but it's still kind of 408 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:45,800 experimentation phase. So we are looking at a different 409 00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:51,700 ways to either, preserve the dominance of the protocol or to 410 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,600 get to get it done. So that if Forks appear, that 411 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,200 the same people pretty much owned part of the fork. 412 00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:04,900 Ex stuff like that and we will see what works out. 413 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:10,900 Let's get to our sponsor, Exodus Exodus is a fantastic crypto 414 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,500 currency wallet, that strikes the right balance between 415 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,200 ease-of-use security and great features. 416 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,800 You can get Exodus on the iPhone desktop app. 417 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,900 Web app, Android whatever platform you use. 418 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,000 It's an En custodia wallet. That is so critical. 419 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,800 Because what's the point of crypto? 420 00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:31,700 If you don't control your own assets with Exodus, you always 421 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:34,300 do the old school. And they've been around since 422 00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:39,100 2015 over 1.2 Million users rely on Exodus. 423 00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,600 So you know that they've stood the test of time, they have 424 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,000 support for over 100 different crypto acids and remove in 425 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,100 Exodus. You can easily change one 426 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:52,600 different asset to the other. They also allow you to buy 427 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,700 crypto with Fiat and they even have a great offer where you can 428 00:29:55,700 --> 00:30:00,700 buy up to $500 worth of crypto through the IOS app and Pages $1 429 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:04,000 in fee. So go to Exodus.com epicenter 430 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,700 and check out their wallet. We want to thank Exodus. 431 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,500 As for their amazing support of epicenter. 432 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,500 See, mention token economics, as, as in mode for curve, like, 433 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:18,000 what is it about? You know, the curve token 434 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,700 economics, that you think, gives that kind of mode. 435 00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:27,300 Well, I think it's kind of probably quite easy to 436 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:33,000 understand in a naive way. You can have pools learning all 437 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,500 the fees for themselves. So let's say you deposit into 438 00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:41,000 the pool and all the exchange fees go to your as a liquidity 439 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,700 provider. But, you know, Market is not 440 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,700 very stable. So sometimes these fees can go 441 00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:52,900 up by a factor of 10, then drop down that we've seen that. 442 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:59,000 So It's good to introduce some sort of inertia there and we 443 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,400 introduced that by doing basically talking emissions. 444 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,500 So some of the token emissions, go to the pool liquidity 445 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:13,100 providers, but some of the fees go to to the doll, which means 446 00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:19,000 basically the talking holders or well talking lockers if to, to 447 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,900 be more exact. So we have this, this Loop Oop 448 00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:29,100 where CRV gets fees. And those who would have, who 449 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:34,700 basically paid parts of those fees, they get CRV and if the 450 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,900 volume trading volume goes down, temporarily well users. 451 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:42,000 Still get CRV. But when it goes up and see 452 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:48,500 where we get small fees. So this kind of this allows the 453 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,300 protocol to operate with a higher long-term stability. 454 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,400 You know, we still would need to see how it goes over and over a 455 00:31:58,408 --> 00:32:00,600 bear Market. We still haven't seen that. 456 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,700 Yeah cuz you basically you have to Feast at the like volatile 457 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,600 and then you have the curvy words and the curvy words are 458 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,000 based just on like the volume in the pool as opposed to the 459 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,800 trading volume. No, actually not that curve 460 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,600 rewards are split proportionally between liquidity providers. 461 00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:31,700 And the amount of cover words is determined by the Dow with 462 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:36,200 so-called wait voting. But anyway, these the speed of 463 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,300 cover words coming in, doesn't depend on the volume which 464 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:44,800 happens in the pool but really, it's voting over the Dow which 465 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,700 indirectly is inspired by How much volume the pool is making. 466 00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:56,100 So basically imagine that some pool is very popular and it gets 467 00:32:56,100 --> 00:33:00,100 a lot of trading volume. And then, let's say down, 468 00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:03,500 participants say, oh, looks like this pole is area. 469 00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:06,600 This pool is airing, quite good money, for the Dow. 470 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,100 We probably should vote for this pool to get more CRV. 471 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:16,500 So if it gets more CRV, more users will put money into that 472 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:20,400 pool. And, you know, it will get even 473 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,400 more volume because there is a high demand and we get more 474 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,400 fees. So, that's kind of how it works. 475 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:31,700 It's not a very fast feedback but that's actually good. 476 00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:35,200 Because this makes basically returns for liquidity. 477 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,800 Providers. A little bit more stable. 478 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,100 Kind of going back to a little bit of an early discussion that 479 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:48,400 we had earlier was about kind of the future of curve. 480 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,900 What's the next step? Like when do you think that 481 00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:57,000 you'll have like kind of your response to yunusov V3 or curvy 482 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,700 to or do you have any plans currently can give us a sneak 483 00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:02,900 peek of what might be in that as well? 484 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,100 Well, I guess it's not changing anything for stable coin pools. 485 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:13,300 They say stable coin, pools are probably good as they are. 486 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:18,300 But we probably would need to expand into different asset 487 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,400 classes. And actually, the work over 488 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,000 there is very close to to launch in that. 489 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,500 So so that's yeah. Basically expanding too, 490 00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:34,500 volatile Pairs. And we want to do it in fully 491 00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:35,400 automatic. Mated way. 492 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:42,000 So not requiring liquidity providers to do that much of the 493 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,000 manual work, and it's a challenging thing. 494 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:51,199 So we will see how it works. And it's challenging because you 495 00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:56,300 probably make find a lot of research where people tried to 496 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,000 to do automatic market-making in like non defy world. 497 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,500 And it's it's hard. It's hard to do effectively and 498 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,100 we kind of what that research tells you is that it's almost 499 00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,800 impossible to do to do it too much more effectively than what 500 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,300 we've seen with units for v2 or balancer, right. 501 00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:23,200 That we want to kind of kind of defy this this common wisdom 502 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,400 which existed before and and show that it's actually possible 503 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:33,700 to do it much more effectively than before Essentially saying 504 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,600 you saying that. So I was under the impression 505 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,500 that actually automate market makers have only really been 506 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:46,100 used in crypto and in defy. But so have there been no 507 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:52,100 significant usage of research into a MM outside and in rural 508 00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:58,000 areas, Of course, of course, I mean they are called trading 509 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,100 Bots and trading Bots are quite quite there, but you don't 510 00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:08,000 really want those trading Bots who I don't know, who look at 511 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,700 some crocodile figure on the graph and decide that it's time 512 00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:16,100 to buy. But you actually, you're more, 513 00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:20,300 think about trading Bots, who create markets and there was, 514 00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:26,800 I'm sure market-making firms use those That's just I guess that's 515 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,000 the way but also there was a lot of public research about that 516 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,500 and if you if you read that you probably may get an impression 517 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,100 that it's it's super hard to create anything useful. 518 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:46,900 And yeah we will we will see if we can do better than all of 519 00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:49,900 that research. If what we created is better. 520 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,200 Another question that I had was, what is your thesis on good 521 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,700 governance? So, you know, the curve token is 522 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:04,100 both a way to incentivize good behavior in the protocol but 523 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,100 also like fundamentally governance token and different 524 00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:12,500 projects have taken different kind of views of what good 525 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:14,900 governance is like. I think, you know, you know, 526 00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:18,400 swap is kind of like trying to governance minimize and make 527 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,300 sure that any governance improvements are really Vital, 528 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:26,800 and key, and important, and other, protocols may be urine, 529 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,100 are much more kind of move fast and break things. 530 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:36,900 It seems what do you see for curve? 531 00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:41,400 Specifically, as like ideal governance and the ideal Dow 532 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,800 structure in the long run? Well, I mean the current doll is 533 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:51,600 specifically designed to to be a good doll in the long run. 534 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:56,700 One of the ideas is that you probably want to the voice of 535 00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:02,500 long-term chocolate holders, rather than rather than those 536 00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:06,100 who can buy token, vote for something and then immediately 537 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:09,800 immediately exit. So that's why we have so called 538 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,700 volt lock mechanism, where you vote lock CRV And you get, you 539 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:19,700 know, the higher governance power, the longer you look for 540 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:25,600 and you can look for up to up to four years and that's what most 541 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,300 people actually do. And we kind of think that 542 00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:34,400 participants in the governance. They actually aligned with the 543 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,100 future of that platform. The long-term another thing is 544 00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,800 that our system is quite modular. 545 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,600 So you You can replace certain modules based on the governance 546 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,100 vote, but at the same time, you cannot change the code. 547 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,400 So you just in Governor's, even if governance wanted to, it 548 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,300 wouldn't be able to take a users users funds. 549 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,500 So, use our funds are sacred. You like even governance can 550 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,400 cannot even plausibly. Get to those, but governance can 551 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,800 make Visions about like what I do including future pools and 552 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,300 some some modular functionality, which we allow not everything we 553 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,500 even used. So, some things are kind of 554 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:31,800 programmed into be used in the future. 555 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,200 So it's a kind of a mix of immutability and flexibility 556 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,900 like up Altamont. Ultimate flexibility would be 557 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,900 replacing every any code, but we kind of I think it's unsafe to 558 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:48,600 do even for the governance. So we are taking the approach 559 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,400 where the code is immutable. And you just, you know, 560 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,500 governance votes for new things and users can think whether they 561 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,800 want to ape into into new things or not. 562 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:07,200 What about the curve like community and ecosystem today? 563 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,800 You know, what does it look like? 564 00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:14,200 Is there a lot of participation or people? 565 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,400 You know, are the only two places to make like governance 566 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,400 proposals as well? And like, what's your vision for 567 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,800 how you want the curve ecosystem to evolve, human governance 568 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,300 wise? Yeah. 569 00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:29,600 Governance wise or just sort of in, you know, in the the way you 570 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,500 want, the community to organize and to Evolved to protocol as 571 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,400 well. Well for evolving the product 572 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,800 call, it would be, of course, good to expand to other Chains. 573 00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:45,700 It's a good question. If governance can expand their 574 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:50,300 but pieces but you know having different pools on other chains 575 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:54,900 and you know having all the money flows going across chains, 576 00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:58,700 that's definitely possible and that's definitely something but 577 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,000 what governance can vote for and yes. 578 00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:09,300 So I think that's one thing. Would you see what you see CRV 579 00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:15,800 having the kind of same function even if curve was deployed on on 580 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,000 on several chains? Yes. 581 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,500 Yes, but I think there is there still should be one place where 582 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:27,300 all things concentrate currently, it's only theorem 583 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,000 right? But like let's say we can have 584 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,500 pools on but we actually do have already pulls on a pool on 585 00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:37,400 polygon. And also couple of pulls on 586 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:44,600 Phantom, and we just got admin fees from polygon back to curve 587 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:50,800 down, and it worked, and we can get CRV, from, from etherium 588 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,900 two, polygons in. That can be, can be controlled 589 00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:57,800 by the doll. Like how much that pool gets 590 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,700 dark and leave on a theorem, but the pool is still over there on 591 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:04,000 polygon. So that's an example. 592 00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:10,100 Example, and this sort of scheme can work with multiple chains. 593 00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:14,700 Multiple layer 2, s, or like whatever will be used for 594 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:19,800 scaling etherium. Shifting gears a little bit 595 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,500 wanted to talk to you about your thoughts on like the kind of 596 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,500 security of curve. You know, this is a long-term 597 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,800 project with billions of dollars I think like more than seven 598 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,300 billion dollars of tvl. So how do you think about 599 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:41,600 security and especially in like the decentralized context were 600 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:44,300 code is being written by many different people. 601 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,700 How do you think about security and ensuring that? 602 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,100 The code is always extremely high quality readable and and 603 00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:56,200 secure. Yeah, that's that's a good 604 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,400 question. We took probably approach 605 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,900 different from what some projects have. 606 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:10,700 So from our observation, most of the errors in the code are 607 00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:12,800 coming from the developer, right? 608 00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:17,700 So it's really up to the developer to get the good cold 609 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:20,600 quality. Yes, you can say that Auditors 610 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,000 can help to get code quality. Better. 611 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,000 That's true to some degree but also Auditors, don't see 612 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,800 absolutely everything and they can miss things. 613 00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:39,000 So how to prevent that, I think the best way is to have all the 614 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:44,200 code very, very well readable so that like it's, you know, the 615 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,600 focus should be on readability and for that, we use Viper 616 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,500 language because like wipers much much more readable than 617 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:58,600 solidity by Has at least and that ensures that we ourselves 618 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:04,400 can can see can see things and our code still sometimes. 619 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:10,300 We don't see them immediately but we cannot notice them much 620 00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:14,500 faster than if everything was in solidity. 621 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,400 So that's one of the things. And of course, salinity is a 622 00:44:19,408 --> 00:44:25,600 much more mature language which with more Also, in that regard, 623 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,900 one could argue that it's as a language, it could be safer. 624 00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:34,900 But given that most pairs they don't actually come from the 625 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:38,500 compiler. Most errors come from humans, 626 00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:42,700 the focus should be on readability and of course which 627 00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:46,100 true for all projects there should be very good test 628 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:50,200 coverage. So automatic testing is is the 629 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,300 Mast for smart contracts. In fact, I think Smart contract 630 00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:59,300 code takes, maybe 5% of all the lines of code, maybe less, and 631 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:01,300 everything else, is automated tests. 632 00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:06,000 So for those we actually do quite Advanced things with 633 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,600 brownie. For example, you could you could 634 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,500 basically and, you know, it all the all the actions Which smart 635 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:17,100 contract or maybe external contracts can do. 636 00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:23,500 And then you can let this tool to select different actions. 637 00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:28,200 At random with random parameters and explore this parameter space 638 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:33,600 trying to find some violations or basically some errors. 639 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,000 Something, which you don't want in your behavior. 640 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,200 And if that happens, it's kind of raises a flag and you say, 641 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,300 oh, there is something in the code which we need to fix, 642 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,600 right? And I think this way actually is 643 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,800 able to come up with flash loan attacks for For example, like 644 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,100 this sandwich attacks you can they actually simple. 645 00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:02,800 So I think I think proper automated tooling can find them 646 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,100 automatically One last question, I wanted to ask was kind of 647 00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:12,000 legal and Regulatory, you know, how do you think about the legal 648 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,300 and Regulatory questions around curve? 649 00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:16,900 Whether it comes to, like, Securities laws for like, curved 650 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,600 token itself. I'll, you know, allowing people 651 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:25,600 from different jurisdictions to use the protocol and also just 652 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,700 like, how do you think? Like what are the biggest risk? 653 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,600 You see to like General, defy regulatory landscape as well. 654 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,500 Rod rod. Yeah, so that's that's a very 655 00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:40,500 good question as well. The rod different themes, which 656 00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:44,900 are going in regulatory space in the past. 657 00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,800 It was mostly activity by a sec and security tokens. 658 00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:53,000 And I think with CRV about at least in my opinion, is quite 659 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,800 simple useless. Are we talking itself is not 660 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,700 doing any function, which is looking like a security, but if 661 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:07,900 you lock it, You get some something called ve C RV, which 662 00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:13,100 is, which allows you to vote in the Dow it receives profits from 663 00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:16,800 the Dow. So it's kind of well feels like 664 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,400 a security but we CRV is not movable. 665 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,300 You cannot move it. You cannot trade it. 666 00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:27,200 It's like only sitting in your wallet and when it's unlocks 667 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,400 when it becomes CRV, again, then it doesn't have that 668 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,500 functionality. So Some in my opinion we ecrv is 669 00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:42,600 a security but because it's not movable it's automatically it 670 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,700 automatically. Satisfies all the security laws 671 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:52,500 and CRV itself is just I think utility talking, but yeah, but 672 00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:56,500 sec, I think is quite friendly to crypto projects these days. 673 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,600 There is also a question about into it, like International 674 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:06,500 money, transmission initiatives. Like five that that could be 675 00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:11,600 tricky for defy because they're trying to regulate what what is 676 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,000 not very much possible to regulate. 677 00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:18,000 Probably some common ground will be found that over time. 678 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:24,700 But yeah, so like for example, if they say that all projects, 679 00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:29,000 should should filter users or whatever, it's just not possible 680 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,300 to do with everything deployed. So everything deployed just In 681 00:48:33,308 --> 00:48:38,000 use to exist and nothing can change that they could as well 682 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,000 called italic and ask him to do that and he couldn't do 683 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,100 anything, right? So if we think from from the 684 00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:49,500 basics of what are the goals of that, the goals are to protect 685 00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:54,200 users and to prevent criminal activity when it comes to 686 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,800 protecting users. I think the biggest threat in 687 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,400 Defy is very different from traditional Financial World in 688 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,900 traditional Financial world. The biggest risk is Counterparty 689 00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:06,100 risk. So let's say, basically, if you 690 00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:10,100 put money in a bank, how can you make sure that this bank doesn't 691 00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,600 run away with your money? Of course, very heavy, final 692 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:19,300 Financial regulations are there to ensure that with defy if well 693 00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:24,600 it's of course, a risk, if it's a custodial protocol, if if the 694 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:30,400 team has admin Keys which allowed to take the money, but 695 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,400 if it's not the case, the biggest risk is actually Really 696 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:38,200 the code quality. So I and I think eventually we 697 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:43,400 will see a lot of regulations around the code quality and how 698 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,500 the projects can ensure that users are safe in that on that 699 00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:49,400 front and with criminal activity. 700 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,200 That's actually also interesting because actually block chains 701 00:49:53,200 --> 00:50:00,700 are very transparent and it's fairly easy to see where 702 00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:04,700 everything goes and that Probably doesn't make 703 00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:10,000 cryptocurrencies the best, the best tool of criminals, they do 704 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,500 try to use that and they many of them fail at that and I think at 705 00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:21,400 the moment at the moment, cryptocurrency is involve less 706 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,500 of a fraction of criminal related transactions than 707 00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:29,200 traditional Financial system or at least I've seen that kind of 708 00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:34,200 information published. Anything else that you kind of 709 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:39,800 want to adhere you want users to know about curve, or before we 710 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,100 we sort of wrap up. I think, I think we're quite 711 00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:48,300 covered everything. And yeah, I think it will be 712 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,500 pretty exciting time. Now, we have a bunch of new 713 00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:58,500 stuff to publish and yeah. If if the listeners can follow 714 00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:02,100 that, they probably will hear quite a lot of interesting 715 00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:04,100 things. So cool. 716 00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:08,100 How do I potential listeners and users? 717 00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:11,000 How do people get started and learn more? 718 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,300 Of course, they can go to Curves of fun. 719 00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:18,000 Just starts using it. We have also resources that 720 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:25,500 curve that Phi with, with all the guides call to use curve 721 00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:30,700 with for one other purpose that I think those those would be the 722 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:34,400 best places to start. Cool. 723 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,500 Thanks so much, Michael. Thank you for joining us on this 724 00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:40,900 week's episode. We release new episodes every 725 00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:43,000 week. You can find a subscribe to the 726 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,700 show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you 727 00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:49,000 listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or 728 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,800 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 729 00:51:51,808 --> 00:51:55,600 the epicenter podcast, go to epicenter dot TV /, subscribe 730 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,700 for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. 731 00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,400 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 732 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,000 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 733 00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:06,100 If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast 734 00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:09,300 listeners, you can On Twitter and please leave us a review on 735 00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:12,000 iTunes helps people find the show and we're always happy to 736 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,600 read them. Well thanks so much and we look 737 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:15,700 forward to being back next week.