1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,560 The biggest thesis back then and even now is that Web 3 isn't 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,320 secure enough. Facebook wanted to build a 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,600 stable coin to power Facebook itself. 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,720 That was the DM leader project. They looked at the EVM, looked 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,800 at the SVM and decided that it wasn't good enough. 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,280 So the language itself it's a lot easier to write code. 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,920 There's actually some diagram that shows like to write account 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,440 checks for a full module. It takes SVM like 2 pages. 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,400 It takes EVM like 5 pages. It takes like the movie on like 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,760 10 lines. If we ever have more than like 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,520 1000 users on chain, the EDM chain simply can't handle load 12 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,240 because you're waiting for one thread, what parallelization 13 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,120 enables use at multiple threads. So if you have 10 transactions, 14 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,560 instead of waiting for E to B to C to D, you can do a transaction 15 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,160 transaction B. Transaction C transact D all the 16 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:47,720 same time because you have multiple threads within the VM. 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,920 This episode is brought to you by Gnosis. 18 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,600 Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,480 ecosystem. 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You can even offer high yield 45 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,160 staking to your own customers using their API. 46 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,280 Your assets always remain in your custody, so you can have 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,520 complete Peace of Mind. Start staking today at Corus .1. 48 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,480 Welcome to Epicenter of the show, which talks about the 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,200 technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization 50 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,720 in the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian Quitio and I'm 51 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,720 here with my Co host Felipe Ernst. 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,960 Today we're talking to Rushi Mancha. 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,640 He's the Co founder. At Movement Labs. 54 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,080 There are a network of move based modular block chains. 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,560 Before we talk to Rushi, just want to disclose that Movement 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,200 Labs is a portfolio company of Interop Ventures. 57 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:25,320 But with that out of the way, hey Rushi, thanks for joining 58 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,360 us. How's it going guys? 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,080 Pleasure to be on here. Yeah. 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,520 So we were just talking before the show about like East Denver 61 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,200 and I think this is the first episode to come out after the 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,160 conference, maybe the 2nd. But yeah, you you, we were both 63 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,600 there wearing the movement sweatshirt, which is very comfy. 64 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,440 Yeah. What were your impressions about 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,040 E Denver and, you know, compared to last year? 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,720 Like how do you think the space has evolved? 67 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,120 I mean the short answer is we're back. 68 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,640 Last year it was like kind of dreary cause like post FTX, it 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,360 was like 3 months after FTX and all the debacles and everyone 70 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,560 was like pretty damn bad. If you were there, you were like 71 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200 in it for the like actual long, long term. 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,400 There weren't that many side events, weren't that many 73 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,560 parties, weren't that many like fun things, which is a blessing 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,560 and a curse. I think last year we saw a lot 75 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,040 more like builders coming to the market and actually presenting 76 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:21,760 some of the cool novel ideas, and there's more signal than 77 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,760 noise. And then at Denver there's a lot 78 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,640 of signal, but even more so noise, especially with care if 79 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,760 the lot rises with crypto and AI narrative. 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,000 But seeing a lot of those decks flowing around, honestly have 81 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,800 had a difficult try to filter out what's real and what's not 82 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,800 real. But more importantly, I think 83 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,320 it's like great to see the public, like obviously the 84 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,160 market's back. Bitcoin's all time high, price 85 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,680 action is doing well, private markets are going crazy. 86 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,680 So the excitement's back. I think that was really great to 87 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,400 see. But I think it's important to 88 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,800 know like you have to be kind of wary because I think we're 89 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,120 heading way too fast an upwards direction, like even before 90 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,560 having bitcoin's all time high, which creates a lot of like 91 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,520 macroeconomic questions for how long this bull can last as a 92 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,600 supercycle, whatnot. So as like a builder, it's very 93 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,200 important to like a focus on distribution, keep like 94 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,320 capitalizing the market, but also remaining like conscious 95 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,240 that it's probably not going to be a long term thing and maybe 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,840 so economics is like suggesting it's a short term thing. 97 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,720 So that kind of adjusts timelines. 98 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,520 I think a lot of different infrastructure companies are 99 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,680 paying attention to the markets in terms of timelines for 100 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,680 product launches and whatnot. So that's one side of the story. 101 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,120 I think some key to finding narratives, you had AI, crypto, 102 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,040 AI obviously like intersection as a core narrative. 103 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,880 Obviously NVIDIA is getting crazy right now which trickles 104 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,200 out as their private markets and the like. 105 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,440 Modularity was still retaining from last year, I think 2023 we 106 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,040 still have ADA focused modularity. 107 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,080 So you had like Celestia, Eigen avail And then this year we put 108 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,040 out like modular day as kind of the flagship event and really 109 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,840 focus on the VM level experimentation. 110 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:58,120 So I moved VMSVM was in VM and a few different groups. 111 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,760 I really come to market and explain why alternative CVM 112 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,480 important. Let it be sticking out. 113 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,000 This is a big narrative that I used to push on, looking forward 114 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,440 to launch. Yeah, I I felt like East Denver 115 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,240 this year could have been just like modular week. 116 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,880 It felt like every event had a modular twist to it or was 117 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,440 either like about modular or had like people giving panels about 118 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,720 about the modular thesis and the modular stack and like avail had 119 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,240 an event. So I see an event you guys had 120 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,280 an event and and tons of other sort of like more theorem 121 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:36,120 aligned teams were were doing events on on modular like how? 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,160 How? Important do you think modular 123 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,600 is to to the current cycle and in terms of narratives you know 124 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,720 like what amount of developer mind share do you think it's 125 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,920 actually capturing versus what the markets are saying like 126 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,320 what, how, how markets are perceiving it? 127 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,120 I think modular is now used to look good in market term. 128 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,480 It's like modular alignment where you want to structure a 129 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,000 company to be in trouble with other networking systems, which 130 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,680 I think is a good thing. Like if you look at traditional 131 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,920 tech or even traditional like hardware, the the the companies 132 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,080 that won where the companies are able to build parts and hardware 133 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,560 that's in trouble with other E systems that wasn't tied into 134 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,680 one vendor lock in. I think that's what we're seeing 135 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,400 in the Web 3 where if you're building AI Oracles, rebuilding 136 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,760 infrastructure, you wanted to be able to tie to different 137 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,680 different chain, go across chain or multi chain and interoperate 138 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,320 because you have a bigger client base, have bigger marketing 139 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,360 exposure. So I think modular now is a 140 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,920 marketing term where if your infrastructure, if your app, you 141 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,360 want to be modular so you can align with different systems. 142 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Whereas if it's actually a modular that's yet to be 143 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,400 determined, probably not. Honestly modular in this case 144 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,480 probably refers to using all DA using experiential different 145 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,040 like BM levels. But I've seen like modular be 146 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,160 used for like RPCS be used for like even like APIs. 147 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,760 So I think Modular is like a bigger landscape which gives 148 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,520 credit Celestia. They've turned their narrative 149 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,760 into like a meta and it allows if like a bunch of different 150 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,080 companies to align under like 1 unified umbrella. 151 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,120 And we'll get into the entire modular stack in just a bit 152 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,600 Rushi. But it is your first time on 153 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,680 Epicenter, so maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and 154 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,000 your background and how you got into this and what what made you 155 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,240 start Movement Labs? Yes. 156 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,480 So my background's engineering started cutting. 157 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,200 I was 14. I was always interested in 158 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,799 distributed systems technology and whatnot, Started software 159 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:40,240 engineering. I worked at the United Health 160 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280 group LED on Prem databases and cloud immigration for a team 161 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,320 over there. Got into that pretty early on. 162 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,720 Then somewhere across crypto was really interested in all program 163 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,720 languages, especially Ross based program languages. 164 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,200 So Kazuwaza and Ross was really exciting to me from there Me and 165 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,840 my Co founder group we're both at Vanderbilt University which 166 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,680 is a university in the South of the United States. 167 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,280 He was a few years older than me but I was playing one of the 168 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,960 first dex in app does he both satay the first yield dragger in 169 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,000 app does. So we were early move builders, 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,520 this was August of 2022, so pre FTX back when like things were 171 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,840 better in that cycle. And then we wanted to bring 172 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,960 things like we love moving, which I think I stumbled across 173 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,480 it because I like, I read like a New York Times article or some 174 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,560 like block article where I was like Facebook's doing this 175 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,000 blockchain programming language and their new blockchain 176 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,280 initiative. And it got me excited because I 177 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,400 was always interested in blockchains, but I was always 178 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,880 concerned of security and it would ever scale to mainstream 179 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,800 consumers. And Facebook is the biggest 180 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,960 consumer app for the planet, and they took a bet on programming 181 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,200 and started Move language. So I built the first deck, 182 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,760 Synaptos, that ultimately led to movement because we wanted to 183 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,080 bring the moving beyond to Aetherium. 184 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,360 I get more to the move side, but that's kind of how I got here. 185 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,360 Yeah, super cool. Yeah, let's get into the Move 186 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,560 side. So basically Move is a language 187 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:10,760 as you said, created by Facebook to to be more dev friendly, more 188 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:17,640 more secure than Solidity and the likes of Solidity like Viper 189 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,200 it's been used for for Libra and DM obviously, but kind of SUI 190 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,960 and up to us are the main chains that kind of build on it today 191 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:32,360 to tell us what kind of sets Move apart from their solidity. 192 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Yes, I think going back to the root, Facebook wanted to build a 193 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,720 stable coin to power Facebook itself. 194 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,840 That was the DM leader project. They looked at the EVM, looked 195 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,920 at the SVM and decided that it wasn't good enough. 196 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,840 They needed their own infrastructure and needed VM and 197 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,680 language that could scale for billions of users as well as 198 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:52,640 provide security front chain. The biggest thesis back then and 199 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,280 even now is that Web 3 isn't secure enough. 200 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,800 If I ever want my mom or anyone in my family to use crypto, the 201 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,720 biggest thing they're saying is isn't going to get hacked, isn't 202 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,560 going to be rugs, and they're like a lot of scams going on and 203 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:06,280 Moo was kind of built to combat that from the smart contract 204 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,560 level. So it stops like 9095% of tax 205 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:11,320 factors we're seeing today in the EVM as well as provides 206 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,720 obviously for some of the tax we're seeing SVM as well, it's 207 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,240 like some so that's kind of the root and origin cost. 208 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,520 And then we kind of bring into like why move. 209 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,600 The thesis is a was built by the biggest consumer app bringing a 210 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,480 new web to developers over the next two or three years. 211 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,360 You'll see suite and app does use their big treasuries to 212 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,840 attract consumer apps and consumer builders to bring net 213 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,160 new developers to each system. As our language itself is 214 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,560 designed to be a blockchain first language the knowledge I 215 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:41,640 could say is like Move is to rust as reactors JavaScript. 216 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,760 If you follow Javascript's history web two it came to 217 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,800 market no one really liked writing JavaScript and then 218 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,000 React came to market made website generation much easier 219 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:53,800 like you can design custom components. 220 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,040 You're like object oriented. Same thing with move it's people 221 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,960 don't really like Wagon Rust they like the framework's the 222 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,600 top of it. So move the move and the move VM 223 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,440 is a framework. You can think of it on top of 224 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,120 Rust where you can design modules that are very custom. 225 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,440 You can have on chain events radio track protection, so the 226 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,080 language itself, it's a lot easier to write code. 227 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,720 There's actually some diagram that shows like to write account 228 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,240 checks for a full module. It takes like SVM like 2 pages, 229 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,400 it takes EVM like 5 pages, it takes like the movie on like 10 230 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,320 lines as well as you have embedded on chain protection. 231 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,240 So you have the move prover at the VM level, which stops risky, 232 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,280 stops injure, overflows, it stops all the attackers we're 233 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,600 seeing today in crypto. So it's the most important 234 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,040 innovation, security while also being paralyzed. 235 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,680 So it touches in the paralyzed narrative block. 236 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,160 STM was actually built by app Das Labs, as pioneered by Monad 237 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,480 and a few other groups. So think of like the best, the 238 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,880 fastest VM and your favorite auditor combined into one VM at 239 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,560 one time. The EVM and Solidity in 240 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:57,040 particular. I mean they are pretty low level 241 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,720 and they let you do a lot of things that other programming 242 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,320 languages like move don't let you do. 243 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,000 So for instance, things like inline assembly or something 244 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 like move would never let you do this, right? 245 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:14,960 But the reason why it was devised this way was to give 246 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:20,480 developers more freedom and kind of optimizing for things like 247 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:25,440 gas cost, right. So with kind of this more 248 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:31,000 prescriptive language that move is you are also somewhat tied 249 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,720 down in, in you know in in terms of what you can actually do 250 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,800 especially in kind of a distributed system such as kind 251 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,560 of a blockchain ecosystem. Does this concern you that you 252 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:48,480 can kind of optimize for things as well as you could in the more 253 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,080 permissive languages? I think going back to web to 254 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,200 example, like you don't have the flexibility with Reactor via or 255 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,440 Angular. It's simply the best framework 256 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,920 to build and design websites. If you really want 257 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,520 customizations, you can go at like C++ level. 258 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,960 You can like Cherry your own kind of Ruby on Rails frameworks 259 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,200 that's more designed for specific like mega use cases. 260 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:12,680 I think there's two sets of argument here. 261 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,080 A move increases the velocity of production. 262 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,600 So let's say for example I'm a 24 year old kid, I will want I 263 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,560 want to launch my own DFA app in two weeks. 264 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,920 Move is the best way to do that because you can get to mark 265 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,360 quickly, you can write code quickly, you don't have to worry 266 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,640 about account checks, you don't have to worry about keep 267 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,720 debugging. So it's the easiest way to 268 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,360 Sprint on product development if you do want low level 269 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,560 customizations. The movie system's actually 270 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,240 working on a lot in line assembly and integrating 271 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,960 assembly directly into the Move language. 272 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,360 Obviously it's a nascent language. 273 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,400 It was launched like a year ago. So there's a lot of fixes and 274 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,080 optimizations are happening. But over the next three or four 275 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,880 years, I'd imagine that Move also adopts a similar low level 276 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,040 support. I think the address team is 277 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,000 working this as well as we're looking into as well. 278 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,040 We actually look at it at the Bico level. 279 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,640 So you can actually directly write you'll which is like a 280 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,960 assembly language directly to our VM. 281 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,160 That's part of our text That kind of differentiates it from a 282 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,960 person sui. We've made it fully even 283 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,840 compatible. So you can take the silly code, 284 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,720 do the 145 AP codes and map it to the 54 move AP codes and 285 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,640 launch the VM. Between that process, it's we 286 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,640 have a abstract syntax tree which enables runtime and SDK to 287 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,840 understand Yule byte code. But also if you are a very 288 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,080 talented developer and you want to customizations as a smart 289 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,600 contract level and you want to use assembly, you can write Yule 290 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,360 directly to the interpreter. No, that's super interesting. 291 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,360 I had no idea that was happening. 292 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,160 How do you feel about the mindshare advantage for the EVM? 293 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,320 Obviously the EVM has been around a lot longer and there's 294 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,840 tooling and people know it and there's tutorials and so on. 295 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,200 Do you think this can be overcome by kind of like the the 296 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,440 sort of treasuries that Facebook and up to us and Sui and so on 297 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,600 put into it? I think it's our it's our PvP. 298 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,920 They both exist. If you want to use Lido today, 299 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,920 EVM is the best place to use it and will be the best place to 300 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,400 use it for the next five years. But the thing with the stance is 301 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,520 the EVM however approaches legacy code. 302 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,600 It is code that works really well for past use cases when we 303 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,440 have 1000 years on chain. MOV is designed for billions of 304 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,000 users on chain. It was designed for Facebook to 305 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,160 be on chain, which is why you have parallelization but also 306 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,080 you have Security benefits. So it's actually complementary 307 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,040 such that that you have the EDF legacy code and legacy software 308 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,040 for early kind of web applications. 309 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,960 You can think about Bitcoin script still supports, people 310 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,680 still use it for various use cases. 311 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,640 But if you ever want to do on chain consumer, on chain social, 312 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,480 any actual use case that requires high throughput 313 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,120 applications as well security, you need to use a framework like 314 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Move. How Move approaches is we 315 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,000 recognize the shortcomings of of Move itself in terms of a new 316 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,760 language as well as the network effects of EVM and we combine it 317 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,000 so we have a MEVM where you have Moves support as well as EVM 318 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,520 support. So if you're looking to deploy, 319 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,160 I don't want to chain or like Avi on chain or you just swap on 320 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,960 chain. Today you can use the EVM 321 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,400 runtime interpreter. If you want to build the next 322 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,280 biggest consumer app, you can use the Move STK as well. 323 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,319 I think that's the best way to approach next Gen. 324 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,119 VMS which is I think a lot of different groups messed up on a 325 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,040 lot of layer ones in next Gen. VMS were like this is our 326 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,079 program where it's just our framework, it's the best thing. 327 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,280 If you don't use it, you can screw off and then they lost a 328 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:22,839 lot of developers. It was difficult to track 329 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,560 liquidity for us. We are acknowledging that EVM 330 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,480 still has a liquidity we want to fully support and actually be as 331 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,680 ethereal as possible while supporting moving the long term 332 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,040 and supporting proliferating its growth. 333 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,040 You talked about parallelization a couple of times there. 334 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,360 Can you kind of go into what that means? 335 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,120 So in traditional EVM or any other stack, you have sequential 336 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,480 processing, which means you have if you have tentative 337 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,840 transaction, it's a transaction A to B to C to D So within a 338 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,600 given VM, you're waiting for a transaction to finish for one 339 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,640 single thread. Typically in today's crypto 340 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,520 environment, sometimes it's not a big deal. 341 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,000 If you're using Lido like you'll have $5 gas fees or whatnot, 342 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320 which for some of you just for like big whales, it's fine. 343 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,360 If you have $1,000,000 on chain you pay $5 gas fees, they don't 344 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:13,880 really care. But what parallelization enables 345 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,400 use at multiple threads. So if you have 10 transactions, 346 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,840 instead of waiting for E to B to C to D, you can do a transaction 347 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,160 transaction B transaction C transact D all the same time 348 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,640 because you have multiple threads within the VM there was 349 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,960 first started with like the block STM process which app has 350 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,240 pioneer which is a new form of parallel processing that enables 351 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,640 high throughput parallelized threads. 352 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,600 Y is really important is for two reasons, a you on low gas fees. 353 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,960 So if you look at near, if you look at Swiss say they had an 354 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,600 extra nothing gas fees which is from parallelization. 355 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,160 While it took the EVM, you still have a theory in which it's like 356 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,840 $50 gas fees. Even layer twos today are pretty 357 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,880 expensive and they require layer threes to scale. 358 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,400 My thesis is a layer threes don't make sense if you have a 359 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,320 paralyzed layer 2 because you can have multiple threads that 360 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,640 can handle and manage date. The second thing is on if you 361 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,360 look at descriptions of the best use case of parallelization, 362 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,040 every EVM chain went down like to get like seeking saying 363 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,960 arbitrary went down 120 GPS. If the if the chain didn't go 364 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,400 down like avalanche, it was at like $50 gas fees. 365 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,720 Which means that if if we ever have more than like 1000 users 366 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,840 on chain, the EDM chain simply can't handle load because you're 367 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,880 waiting for one thread. Think about logically right? 368 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,240 If you have a high impact event like inscriptions or game going 369 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,520 crazy on one thread and you just swap on the same thread, it's 370 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,520 going to cause the gas piece for you to swap to go up. 371 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,160 Or if there's a world where you can multiple threads and you 372 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,040 have gas fees, go crazy on one thread rather than effect you 373 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,000 just swap. Doesn't affect DYDX, doesn't 374 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,120 affect GMX other threads, so you can actually have modularity 375 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,680 within the threads itself instead of requiring constant 376 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,720 infrastructure upgrades that make no sense at scale. 377 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,960 So Long story short, parallelization enables 378 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,400 concurrent transaction processing which allows flow gas 379 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,320 fees as well as allows for a management of state during times 380 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,560 of high network activity. There's a lot to unpack here. 381 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,720 So I think some of these things in the Ethereum ecosystem are 382 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,440 being tackled by intense space transactions, right? 383 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,880 What's your take on those? I think Intense based tries 384 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,240 actions pretty early on. I know Shogun's trying to do 385 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,240 something for like the moding system and the one inches also 386 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,840 trying to push towards that. The general thesis was that it's 387 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,400 like very early stages yet to be proven because there's a lot of 388 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,080 interoperability problems. If you try to get intense 389 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,280 between like AEVM chain on one like layer two and another layer 390 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,400 two like across is probably the biggest one here. 391 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,960 It's very difficult to do like bridging standards and there's a 392 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,360 lot of secure assumptions they're making. 393 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,840 But I would say I guess in the EBM world intense is another way 394 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,480 to tackle that. But still the fees are generally 395 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,960 a high and there's still like just cause like just cause 396 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,280 across has intense built to the bridging doesn't mean it can 397 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,600 handle high load. If that was the case, like 398 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,160 inscriptions would not take another chance. 399 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,760 And so basically when you talk about parallelization, I mean 400 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,640 basically we used to have this this idea any here with that I 401 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,840 very much hope is going to return at some point with with 402 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,360 kind of like smart shards where basically you have where you 403 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,200 have individual execution environments with local states 404 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,760 that kind of can interact async with one another. 405 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,960 When you have stacks that natively do parallelization, how 406 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,600 do you handle the state? How do you make sure that you 407 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,000 kind of have one Ledger? How do you deal with security? 408 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,400 Well, the thing was that's one of the benefits of using 409 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,960 Ethereum's layer too. As you inherit the network 410 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,960 security and the valor set and the kind of decentralization, 411 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,400 that theorem is already built and you put the move VM on top 412 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,000 of that. I bring parallelization to 413 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,840 Ethereum, which is why I think it's very like the vision for 414 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,240 Ethereum is actually to bring parallelization to the VM level 415 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,920 because you can inherit the security, manage state bloat 416 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,880 through the settlement dealers. While you have VMS that can 417 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:01,880 provide performance parallelization, you have like 418 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,440 parallelize Evms. Coming now to Ethereum, you have 419 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,520 SVMS Move VMS. This is definitely the rise of 420 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,280 these virtual machines, but they're all saying that the AIM 421 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,360 is still the best place to manage state and store data. 422 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,600 I'll hand off to to Seb here. Sorry for the for the intense 423 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,880 inter interrogation here from the EVM camp. 424 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,600 No, these are, these are all great questions. 425 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,000 I I love it. I was just watching and and 426 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,640 really enjoying that whole exchange. 427 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,360 I mean, you know, to kind of bounce back on what you were 428 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,480 saying Rishi, you know, in terms of you know, the EVM being 429 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,600 legacy code. I sometimes equate DVM and I 430 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,360 know this, this analogy doesn't overlap exactly but look at the 431 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,920 EVM and salinity a little bit as I do. 432 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,320 You know, PHPPHP has been around for over 20 years. 433 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,680 It it is still powering something like 60 to 70% of 434 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,240 websites on the Internet, you know, most of which are 435 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,200 WordPress websites and Facebook. However, you know ask a college 436 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,000 kid today or like a young engineer what language he's 437 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,600 building with, like he's probably using, you know like 438 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,920 Node JS and React and all these sort of new Web 2 frameworks and 439 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,080 and not PHP. So I, I sort of look at the EVM 440 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,080 and Solidity in the same from the same perspective where I 441 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,960 think the EVM will continue to power very important 442 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,960 applications and D5 will continue to power these, you 443 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,600 know, sort of legacy applications that are going to 444 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,200 be you know, very, very important to Ethereum and sort 445 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,880 of crypto infrastructure moving forward. 446 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,440 But you know as the space moves towards a more modular ecosystem 447 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:45,720 stack new VMS that are better suited for, for that, for that 448 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,960 infrastructure will probably prevail in those ecosystems. 449 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Is that a good way to look at it? 450 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,800 Or is that analogies missing? Missing some parts, no. 451 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,280 I think that makes perfect sense. 452 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,720 Like a guy could touched on like the EVM has done a great job of 453 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,760 boot shopping the initial crypto user base and use cases for D5 454 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,120 but there still is a lot of challenges. 455 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,320 So that's why these all BMS are coming out of our performance, 456 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,200 security and a bunch of the different trade-offs to kind of 457 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,080 scale existing Ethereum use cases. 458 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,400 But like Liquid with with web two is kind of different where 459 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,640 you have, if you have a novel new tech stack, if you have a 460 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,200 cool new website and you can essentially vampire attack to 461 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,000 use this thing like user base and bring it over pretty quickly 462 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,560 probably within a two to three month test span. 463 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,040 That's not really possible in crypto because you have 464 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,160 financial incentives. So if you have like building 465 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,280 locked up on one of each system, it's very difficult to migrate 466 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,840 and essentially take all the liquidity over to a new nasty 467 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,040 system which is why it's it's more of like a long term horizon 468 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,320 where you'll see liquidity slowly move to Exelana which is 469 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,680 why Exelana has been kind of crushing in, it's been steadily 470 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,840 growing TBLS was app since we. So we're slowly seeing that 471 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,320 liquidity and users can move over to the next 10 VMS but it's 472 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,400 still going to be like a 10 year process probably before the EDM 473 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,760 is at least completely challenged. 474 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,960 So in the current state of execution environments is you 475 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,160 acknowledge the EVM, acknowledge the liquidity benefits it has 476 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,680 while try to try to create different use cases for these 477 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,920 alt VMS, make sure those use cases actually reach fruition 478 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,520 and then slowly work on acquiring the even liquidity. 479 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,040 Once you prove that. I think the two main contenders 480 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,800 are this SVM and then move VMA which have a huge eastern 481 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,720 backing of from pre-existing level ones and B how specific 482 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,360 teams are carrying out on the alt VM2 VM each system. 483 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,560 So maybe just like playing devil's advocate here, like what 484 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,800 do you make of the fact that you know Barrett Chain is launching 485 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:43,120 an EVM chain, you know, say also is I, I think now dropping Kazum 486 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,840 wazum to to favor a paralyzed EVM in in order to, you know 487 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,760 attract more developers. I think they've found it 488 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,040 difficult to attract Cosm Wazum developers. 489 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,040 You know, if this is all true and if like move and and and so 490 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,600 lot of VM are better suited to this kind of new era of 491 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,440 blotching applications, why are you know these very large like 492 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,520 especially Barry Chain right? There's like large ecosystem 493 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,720 play putting the EVM first. I'll take you to the same. 494 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,480 Point of view where the paralyzed EVM, I would contend 495 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,720 is not the same as the EVM. It's completely redesigned 496 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,840 virtual machine, It just even compatible. 497 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,280 You can argue that our MEVM is a paralyzed EVM even though it's a 498 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,480 completely different virtual machine. 499 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,960 So I think the paralyzed EVM is I would consider also the next 500 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,800 Gen. VM because it's a complete 501 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,560 redesigned virtual machine. This has EVM compatibility from 502 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,680 the start. There are security issues with 503 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,000 Solidity but say isn't really prioritizing that because their 504 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760 go to market is being a trading first chain being a high 505 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,840 throughput chain so they don't really care for optimizing for 506 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,400 smart country security. So the the simple answer to say 507 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,080 example, the modern example is those are completely different 508 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,040 EVMS or VMSI would not say their current EVM, they're actually 509 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,360 like the Monet EBM. I want to say EBM which is 510 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,080 completely different. So still ties in the next Gen. 511 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,320 thesis. And then As for Bearish, I would 512 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,520 say that's like the main value prop. 513 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,360 There is a community they've done a great job assembling, 514 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,880 maybe the most valuable community crypted today. 515 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,080 And a lot of their activity is based on this proof of liquidity 516 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,520 consensus where it's actually doesn't make sense to use a next 517 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,560 Gen. VM because they don't really 518 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,640 care about speed, they don't really care about security as 519 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,040 much. They're more focused on using 520 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,160 governance and using the liquid staking every staking narrative. 521 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,280 But I know for example like talking to the teams and 522 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,280 different teams are throughput is a concern for them because 523 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,480 even like mempool went down recently, it probably won't be 524 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,680 able to do more than like 50 TPS at scale. 525 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,240 So it's we're actually going to be working with Birgi and 526 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,920 bringing the Movie VM to their system. 527 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,200 Probably more experimental on down the road map, but for any 528 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,080 game that wants to launch, a bear chain simply probably won't 529 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,600 work. You'll probably need to like get 530 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,840 an exclusion for that. Yeah, so therefore. 531 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,200 Like Bear chain will sort of act as a a security layer for L twos 532 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,360 and and and other app chains that want to leverage bear chain 533 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:06,080 security. Yep cool. 534 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,080 Let's let's talk about the stack. 535 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,360 So you know immediately there are there are different parts of 536 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,080 the stack here that yeah, I mean even for me sometimes like it 537 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,000 can still be a little bit confusing. 538 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,440 So you know there's M1, there's M2 and the idea here is for like 539 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,480 M1 to act as you know this sort of like layer one that that 540 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,120 enables M2 chains and roll ups to to launch on top of it. 541 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,320 Can you explain like broadly what the stack looks like and 542 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,840 where? And also there may be zooming 543 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,480 out like where these different components sit within the 544 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,320 modular stack. If we bring in like now Celestia 545 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,000 and Eigen layer maybe like union for interoperability, you know 546 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,040 if we're looking at a sort of infographic of this, like what 547 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,800 would that look like? Yeah, so we can. 548 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,720 Start with top down South execution layer. 549 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,160 You have the movement VM which is the DM salvage machine, 550 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,440 supports move smart contracts as well as supports EVM smart 551 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,800 contracts. So it's the EVM interpreter 552 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,880 that's eventually transition to transpire that exists on top 553 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,200 SDK. So any smart contracts whether 554 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,600 you're in MOVE or slowly Kansas other execution layer settlement 555 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,640 is Ethereum. We believe that's the best 556 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,160 security centralization also enables liquidity to easily flow 557 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,680 to layer two through a trust minimize bridge. 558 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,360 The kind of stack of framework we're using is a zero knowledge. 559 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,200 Rob, we're using versus right now for ZK fraud proofs, but 560 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,640 also looking at scope out our own ZK Move VM proving kit. 561 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,120 So you have MOVE VM execution, ZM settlement, ZK fraud proofs 562 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,720 as kind of the roll up framework and then right now using slash C 563 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,960 for DA, I'm giving us the one that's Live Today as well as 564 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,840 allows for cold data to be pushed directly DA and saves a 565 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,280 lot of gas fees. So it's kind of like this 566 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,640 Frankenstein of like different layers which is kind of the 567 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,560 direction I I think a lot of different roll up in tubers. 568 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,560 And last bit on sequencer portion, I think today's 569 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,760 centralized sequencers cannot scale and do not scale. 570 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,520 I think most people agree. If you look inscriptions like it 571 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,400 like broke every sequence that exists and the simple reason 572 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,840 that arbitrary MZK sink and these teams aren't innovating is 573 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,680 because they're making a lot of money on sequencer fees. 574 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,160 Because we're a next Gen. roll up, our fees are basically 575 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,400 pennies. So we don't actually prioritize 576 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,560 sequencing fees. We have a fully decentralized 577 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,240 sequencer day one that enables Valors to take the move token to 578 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,040 participate in sequencing for layer 2. 579 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,000 So it's a fully decentralized layer to a network where the 580 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,040 transaction fees are distributed to stakeholders, stakeholders 581 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,680 take the token to participate in sequencing. 582 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,600 So actually is like a bridge between like a layer one and 583 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,800 layer 2IN that sense. How? 584 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,800 How? Do you deal with the 585 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,280 decentralized sequencing? Because if you kind of look at 586 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,040 the L2 stack on Ethereum right now, no one's really figured 587 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,160 this out yet, right? So basically, S Tech are the 588 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,480 people who are who are saying that we're not going to do this 589 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,000 without, but they're also saying they're probably launched 590 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,040 earliest in a year or so. Yeah, so. 591 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,920 I think a large in groups like Origin based setter, they've all 592 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800 announced like Optimism Super chain is a sequencer. 593 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,440 I think they've all announced that they want to do desensitize 594 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,200 sequencer. But like I touched on, there is 595 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,160 no economic incentive for them to prioritize it because they're 596 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,880 making a lot of money on sequencer fees. 597 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,040 So it's always like OK, we'll eventually do that or we'll work 598 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,920 with a third party, but the third party never really works 599 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,160 out. So it's always been pushed back. 600 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,480 For us it's a directly a priority a because we're a high 601 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800 throughput chain. So we each have a decentralized 602 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,720 sequencer to manage the load down to the network. 603 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,640 And B, that's our token business model. 604 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,000 We need a decentralized sequencer for the Ballers to 605 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,640 have taking privileges, which actually accrues value and buy 606 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,840 pressure for the token. So that means we're actually 607 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,760 prioritizing as a core part of our tech stack. 608 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,080 I think Metis is another one. Our mode, one of those has 609 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,480 started and launched with the decentralized sequencer and I 610 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:55,600 think we'll see a lot more of this come. 611 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,000 I think Astra is also launching the new layer, two of the 612 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,880 decentralized sequencers. So teams that prioritize these 613 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,400 centralized sequencers, we'll be able to Sprint to market, while 614 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,800 teams that don't prioritize it have no sense to do so. 615 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,720 Can you? Walk us through how it works. 616 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,320 So the only the only technical implementation that I'm aware of 617 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920 is the one that Sello is pushing kind of who who are moving from 618 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,000 like an L1 to an L2 network. So how how do you go about it? 619 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:22,880 Yeah. So I think we. 620 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,200 Have a very similar approach Sello. 621 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,080 Sello had a layer one. They now they're approaching 622 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,080 this like layer two. Honestly cable idiom. 623 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,200 All the valors from Sello were layer one to layer one, take the 624 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,880 cello token to participate in sequencing for the cello layer 625 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,280 two. So that kind of works how we 626 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,400 have it, right. So we have M1, which is booklet 627 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,640 stomach consensus. For those that are familiar, 628 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360 it's from the Avalanche system. That's essentially A 629 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,320 fastenality, extremely low hardware requirements and very 630 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,720 decentralized consensus mechanism. 631 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,400 That's our sequencer valor stick to move token to participate in 632 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,720 sequencing for the layer 2. The benefits of using them and 633 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,080 there is leaderless it when you water Q transactions, you can 634 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,120 have multiple different nodes. So if one node goes down, the 635 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,000 network doesn't go down, you'd have a centralized point of 636 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,360 failure and then B, anyone can run a node for the network. 637 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,080 So the issues like slana apps and squeeze the hardware 638 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,400 requirements are very high. The minimum stakes are very 639 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,720 high. So it's very centralized in that 640 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,760 sense. With our stomach consensus, 641 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,920 anyone can run a node. It's very low sticky 642 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,640 requirements, so we can have much more decentralization at a 643 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,480 network level. Cool. 644 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,400 I want to come back to. The to the stack a little bit. 645 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,000 So could you describe like what is the role of of M1? 646 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,120 So is M1 like the the sort of shared sequencer that all M2 647 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,120 chains? Are are going to? 648 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,760 Use. Yeah. 649 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,760 And and then how does M1 then connect into IBC and then all of 650 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,040 the other like move chains that are part of the broader, you 651 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,280 know, move ecosystem, so you'll have M2? 652 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,360 As the main like fraction, well think of like the optimism 653 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,840 chain, the main chain you have M1 as sequencer which is kind of 654 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,840 analogous to optimisms super chain sequencer. 655 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,520 And then we have other move rollups launching the network 656 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,080 and all sequenced by the same sequencer set which is M1 which 657 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,679 is like the OP stack rollups. So similar business model there 658 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:15,360 was focused on A launching our sequencer off the bat and B on 659 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,320 the next Gen. VM. 660 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,400 So our stack will actually complimentary to LP stack where 661 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,480 you can use LP stack, use the move stack to the VM and connect 662 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,840 to the sequencer. I think everyone's customizing 663 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,840 ADA layer, customizing role frameworks, customizing proven 664 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,320 marketplaces but then not touching the EVM at all. 665 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,920 Our stance is we don't believe that should be the case. 666 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,360 We should we want experimentation at the VM level. 667 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,679 If you're building a gaming role up which we see a lot of demand 668 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,280 for, you probably want to use the Move VM or SVM something 669 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,920 like that. And yeah, the M1 sequencer 670 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,520 connects all the different systems, allows for liquidity to 671 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,440 be routed seamlessly and then envision as you have these 672 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,040 hundreds of roll ups all connected to Ethereum with this 673 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,639 decentralized sequencer set. Fascinating. 674 00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,080 And yeah, let's maybe just zoom in a little bit to where 675 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,120 Celestia fits into all of this and how it supports the the roll 676 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,760 ups being built on on top of album 1. 677 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,960 Yeah. So the thesis last year was each 678 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,360 settlement and EDA is really expensive. 679 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,000 If it were like optimize an arbitrum, the fees are pretty 680 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,080 high there. So how can we free all DA to 681 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,600 really scale a theum roll ups so that you can still be on theum 682 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,800 settlement but post call data to a cheaper source. 683 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,880 That's when Celestia Eigen avail even near an hour kind of 684 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,840 position ourselves as leaders in the space from there kind of 685 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,880 like what roll ups like ourselves Eclipse Manta etcetera 686 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,720 have already been focusing on is OK we're bringing alt VMS and 687 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,840 next Gen. VMS and different VM stacks to 688 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,200 Ethereum. We need to use Celestia because 689 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,520 if you have a paralyzed VM on top of theorem and you're not 690 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,120 using alt TA it's still being really expensive. 691 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,000 You'll inherit security of theorem and obviously be a true 692 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,280 L2 but the user experience could be pre subpar at least until the 693 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,000 pool being shortings out which is appears out at this point. 694 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,360 So that's kind of thes of these alt DA that also ties into the 695 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,240 kind of IBC narrative which you touched on before. 696 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,760 We're working with the union on being fully IBC compatible. 697 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,720 They're building out so like kind of machines for us. 698 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:12,960 So essentially if you want to do cross chain swaps on top of M2, 699 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,960 you can do that with IBC itself. Kecked Osmosis. 700 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,560 Kecked to Juno. Kecked to your favorite Cosmos 701 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,040 sones or World chains or whatever you want to call it, 702 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,000 Yeah. So we're. 703 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,240 Recording this on March the 12th and the dengue wouldn't upgrade 704 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:32,320 is going to be tomorrow, so kind of this will give us Proto Deng 705 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,760 sharding. I think it's pretty obvious that 706 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,000 it's not going to be enough, but how much do you think it'll help 707 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,800 the entire call data situation? Yeah, so it's an. 708 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,200 Exciting day tomorrow, so looking forward to that. 709 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,480 But to be frank, Frank, I don't think it's going to be that 710 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,000 noticeable. I've seen like some recent 711 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,640 measurements and like I think I'm going to be a few cents 712 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,520 difference the full day and starting as we know it is like 713 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,440 three or four years out which at that case that we can reassess 714 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,600 the needs for all DA. But I think like slust taking 715 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:09,800 cut fees down at 99% today while per day and charting is like .1% 716 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,280 something like that. So I don't think it really it 717 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,520 really is a factor I think user experience I mean F theorem will 718 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,760 be a little bit better it's it's why I stepped in the right 719 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,840 direction. But the fact of the fact, the 720 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,560 truth of the matter is like Ethereum Foundation and like 721 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,080 Ethereum itself can't move as rapidly as like Celestia Eigen 722 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:27,600 third party infrastructure groups. 723 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,760 So in the short term and midterm, honestly, all DS sells 724 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,720 the market. And what's the? 725 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,640 Role of like restaking within the sort of movement story. 726 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,880 And how does eigen layer fit into all of this? 727 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,280 Yeah, so rethinking. Has always been an interesting 728 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,240 area that I think it's definitely, probably the hottest 729 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,040 thing right now, one of the hottest things people want to 730 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,360 use Ethereum security. There's groups bringing you to 731 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,400 Cosmos, there's groups bringing you to like Bitcoin and it's 732 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,440 just like kind of using more capital efficient markets. 733 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,400 We're seeing a lot of layer twos work with resignal providers at 734 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,960 the bridge contract level. So imagine you have like 735 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,360 arbitrary deposit each to Barber trump, it can be able to 736 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,160 restrict you with a Rio Renzo one of these players and have 737 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,120 extra yield. So I think these are much like 738 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,440 yield bearing strategies that layer two is adopting. 739 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,440 I think the way we're approaching is like all similar 740 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,320 to that like having LRT at the bridge contract. 741 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,600 If you're a family office liquid follow you a lot of ETH. 742 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,440 You want to deposit on a chain. You can you can stake it on on 743 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,760 an LST and then restick it with LRT on the British cadre level 744 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,840 have fully automated so you don't need to worry about it. 745 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,560 Have like extra yield that you wouldn't be able to get usually. 746 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,200 And the benefit of loss is that because it's fully formally 747 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,600 verified, it's actually the most secure way to restick ETH. 748 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,920 So we topped a lot of liquid funds. 749 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,200 The concern they have is OK, I want to earn yield, but security 750 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,600 is very important to me. I'm not. 751 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,840 I'm family office. I don't like to take a lot of 752 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,000 risk. I just like hold ETH and sell at 753 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,280 certain times. So for them the pitch is OK. 754 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,560 This is the best place to deploy ETH restate kit, earn the yield 755 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,440 that you want, and have it fully, fully verified. 756 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,040 So it's not the security concerns that you're actually 757 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,800 worrying about. It actually creates a bigger 758 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,560 narrative around insurance, which gets me excited because in 759 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,840 the past insurance has been really pretty much useless 760 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,320 because it's more contract risk. There's actually a world where 761 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,960 you can, because you have ETH, you can use that as collateral 762 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,920 for investment. So if you're like using Ave. or 763 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,240 USWAP on chain, you want to use Restake as collateral. 764 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,040 You can use IGA insurance, which in the park protocol they're 765 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,840 working on as collateral for the investment. 766 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,320 So that's another ABS that's actually really exciting 767 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,080 especially for the move because the security gaps enable it to 768 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,720 be much more risk adverse or much more risk better, which 769 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,240 enables interest rates to be lower, which enables retail 770 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:49,200 capital come in more easily. Any thoughts on the rise of 771 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,680 Bitcoin L twos because kind of we've in the in the past months 772 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,040 or so those have been all the rate right? 773 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,160 Yeah, I. Think like personally, I don't 774 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,600 really understand that well. I'm not that deep in Bitcoin 775 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,080 space. So like the Bitcoin programming 776 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,920 space, I'm sure there's other people that can see better to 777 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,200 it. For my standing, it's like a way 778 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,160 for people to you take existing Bitcoin reserves, put it on 779 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,200 chain or put it into we're now like custody multi sigs or side 780 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,880 chains and are on yield for that. 781 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,480 So in the short term makes sense. 782 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,240 It's a way to generate yield and it's a way for layer twos or 783 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,560 whatever you want to call it to boost up TBL ability, rolling 784 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,920 chain like 2 billion three billion TBL in a week or 785 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,320 something crazy. And I think a lot of geek 786 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,760 systems are now looking at that. How can we acquire Bitcoin 787 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,240 liquidity. In the past rapid TC was always 788 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,520 available but family offices, liquid funds don't really want 789 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,960 to wrap BTC because the whole process gas fees are really 790 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,040 high. It's a risk. 791 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,840 So BTCL, twos enabled needed Bitcoin to exist and be 792 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,240 repurposed for yield. So I think what a lot of 793 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,240 different groups are looking at is how can we integrate 794 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:57,280 something in Babylon, integrate like the BTC accrued from there 795 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,120 and earn the yield for our system. 796 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,760 So something that we're looking into is, is there a world where 797 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,200 we can be native BDC, be it Babylon or other infrastructure 798 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,800 providers and have that used in D5. 799 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,360 But obviously we're experimental and probably more down the road 800 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,880 map. But I think like Bitcoin itself 801 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,040 is here to stay. I think that each EF proved that 802 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,440 it's going to be like currency of gold. 803 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,080 It's not going to be very programmable. 804 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,360 I don't imagine the next social or gaming app being built on 805 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,400 these BTCL twos. I don't think that's possible at 806 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,120 my current knowledge. I think it's just a way to 807 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,440 repurpose BTC, which is cool. So I think short term play makes 808 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:32,960 sense. Long term, I'm Kevin Schurr. 809 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,840 But teams like us are looking to kind of leverage that for 810 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,800 existing TDL Security benefits. Yeah, I I personally think that 811 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,920 Bitcoin is going to play a a bigger and bigger role in the 812 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,120 Layer 2 narrative in the coming year. 813 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,440 And you know a lot of that I think is fueled by you know the 814 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,240 ETF bringing like lots more liquidity into the space but 815 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,760 also a lot of the kind of technical developments that are 816 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,680 happening there. So I've you know there was this 817 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,640 Bitcoin renaissance event at Denver and I think like half of 818 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,920 the teams that were that were that had boost there were were 819 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,320 building some kind of restate Bitcoin product or liquid steak 820 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,880 Bitcoin product And and I think that you know given bitcoins 821 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,600 position as like the largest and more secure blockchain it makes 822 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:26,320 a ton of sense for that capital to be utilized well one in D5 823 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,720 through liquid state assets with now whether like that's 824 00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:32,720 technically possible that you know you can do sort of trust 825 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,480 minimize versions of Bitcoin on other chains. 826 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,520 It's going to be very important like yeah, we don't want this 827 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,720 just to be a multi sig, but then yeah, the security aspect I 828 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:42,720 think is also huge. So like whoever figures that out 829 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,760 and brings it to market, I think we'll we'll do very well. 830 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,200 Want to move on now to, yeah, you you guys announced a couple 831 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:57,840 of months ago a partnership with Yeah Union and Noble and I was 832 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,240 really excited about this 'cause we're we're all also very 833 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,280 bullish on, on those two teams. Yeah. 834 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,640 How does this help bring USCC to movement? 835 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,040 And can you describe maybe like the role of Union in bringing 836 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,560 IBC to, you know, the movement ecosystem, but also Cosmos and 837 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,680 Ethereum and sort of tying it all together so that we can have 838 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,520 fungible USC across all these platforms? 839 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,200 Yeah, things like IBC has always been like regarded as like the 840 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,840 most secure, one of the best bridging centers on the market 841 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,160 and there's a bunch of transport layers on top of that which like 842 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,440 layer 0 wormhole, hyperlane. Recently Wormhole was a nice 843 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,040 warm chain which is like gateway now which is their cosmos 844 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,120 adaption layer. Zero and Hyperlane both have 845 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,840 also obviously adaptions. You have Xlore as well. 846 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,360 So all the biggest bridging protocols all use IBC under the 847 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,320 hood, but they use it probably non-native way is really 848 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,080 difficult. I mean point of view to use them 849 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,720 like for warmly you have to bridge to the gateway and the 850 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:00,560 bridge gateway to respective chains. 851 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,920 There's lack of native IBC connections. 852 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,720 So there's a few groups that have emerged to kind of solve 853 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:07,520 this problem. You have like Palmer Labs, you 854 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,520 have like proposal finance, you have Union Labs. 855 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,400 Now they're now looking at different ways to bring IBC 856 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,400 natively T systems. So part of our partnership with 857 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,520 the union is they're working on building direct Lifeli machines 858 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,320 for a layer or two. So if you're a DAP on top of 859 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,600 movement, you can do transactions directly. 860 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,960 Does Moses do it to other chains? 861 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,800 It starts off through the Union chain I believe, but eventually 862 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,960 they'll be native IBC compatibility, which really 863 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,920 exciting because now you can have any of USCC, you have Adam, 864 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,440 Tia, you can get the benefits of all the Cosmos and assets that 865 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,280 people want on chain without relying on the third party and 866 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,960 secure bridge provider. But I think my general thesis is 867 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,040 that IBC is the COSMOS standard. I know we touched on this as 868 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,360 convergence where Cosmos accomplishes the vision, the 869 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,840 Internet of blockchains where every roll up, every L1L2L3 or 870 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,680 whatever you want to call it, we'll use IBC as a main bridging 871 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,280 provider bridging standard of the hood. 872 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,760 It's just depending on like where the wrappers on top of it 873 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,520 and transfer layers on top of it that facilitate that. 874 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:11,280 So you have like Wormhole doing it from like their point of view 875 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,120 which is more third party and more trust reliant and you have 876 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,040 like Union and Palmer which are looking to kind of address the 877 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,080 security assumptions and increase speeding times. 878 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,480 Union specifically is looking at ZKIBC. 879 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,720 They built Comet BLS, which is a new standard for messaging, some 880 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,680 pretty exciting and bullish on them, which is how we're working 881 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,040 with them. Yeah, I'm I'm glad you mentioned 882 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,440 conversions because there's a couple of topics that we we 883 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,520 touched on at the event that I'd like to bring up here. 884 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,760 So you know one of the topics that we talked about was USD 885 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,200 denominated asset dominance in crypto. 886 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,320 It's obviously like USDC and and Tether are you know by a large 887 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,680 margin leading in stable coin issuance you know over things 888 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,360 like like die and and other decentralized stable coins you 889 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,840 do do you think this like you know Corel from Union was on the 890 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,200 panel also And so I I encourage those who haven't seen that to 891 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,560 go check it out. It's on the Nebula Summit 892 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:10,120 YouTube channel. We'll link to it in this show 893 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,680 notes. But you know he was saying that 894 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,920 you know he felt that there was a risk to crypto to having these 895 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,360 well one like centralized centrally issued stable coins. 896 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,160 But also I think another topic that another sort of point that 897 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,360 I haven't heard brought up very often is yeah, you know this 898 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,360 USDC denominated stablecoins. So it's kind of like US 899 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,600 alignment, U.S. dollar alignment risk. 900 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,200 Do you do you see that as a risk and you know how? 901 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,080 How can one mitigate that considering the fact that like 902 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,080 these stablecoins already have like such dominance over the 903 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,840 space? So yeah, we discussed like USCC 904 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,000 dominance and my thing is like I have actually pro Circle 905 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,240 dominance in the short term because if we already have very 906 00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,960 few users on chain and like if you ever want like consumer 907 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,400 safety, right now we need like a third party like big provider 908 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,680 Circle Coin Base to really issue these assets and provide 909 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,800 confidence to retail users. Like going back to my example of 910 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,360 like family using crypto, if I told them to use like die or a 911 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,520 maker or like some of these other stable phone providers, 912 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,200 they're probably free down big. What is this? 913 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560 If I said it was like, OK, it's a stable coin issued by Circle, 914 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,200 like now probably going to be a public IPO company. 915 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,640 The very US regulated, has a lot of rules, regulations, they feel 916 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,360 all more comfortable. So there's like two kind of 917 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,440 markets here, right? You have like retail, which is 918 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,800 like people who don't really know crypto at all. 919 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,280 They want to explore with it. You need Circle, you need a 920 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,720 Coinbase, You need centralized authority for them to feel 921 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:41,720 comfortable. And then you have the experience 922 00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:43,840 on chain degens. People have been trading for 923 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,560 years. They recognize that in the world 924 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,400 that Circle kind of goes rogue or Coinbase goes rogue. 925 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,880 They want the ability to safeguard their holdings. 926 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,360 That's why Dye is really interesting, that's why UCT is 927 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,280 like is interesting is that was like Athena, which is not a 928 00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,280 stable coin, but they're providing different in 929 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,320 investment kind of issuances. So I think there's different 930 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,880 groups for those categories where you can provide solutions 931 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,320 and stable coins and assets for more roughly native people. 932 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,880 But to bring in people's base, you do need centralized 933 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,000 authorities. So actually Pro Circle Pro 934 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,200 Coinbase issued assets. Yeah, I think that makes sense 935 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,240 to me. I think in the short term it 936 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,360 makes sense. You know, looming in the back of 937 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:27,600 my mind is always this censorship risk with USDCI think 938 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,160 that's really the main risk that I see. 939 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,040 But as the space becomes more regulated, that is going to be 940 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,640 the case. Also most likely like, I mean 941 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,040 all applications and and dash will be subject to potentially 942 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,240 like having to central transactions that don't fall in 943 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,280 line with like compliance. Yeah. 944 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:51,600 In terms of, yeah, like this Cosmos and Ethereum convergence 945 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,120 idea, which was the main main topic of the the panel in 946 00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,480 Denver, Yeah, what's the end game here for you like in terms? 947 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,280 Of cosmos. And Ethereum coming closer 948 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,000 together and benefiting from each other as sort of strong 949 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,560 points, Where do you see that heading towards? 950 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,600 I think Ethereum. Is used for liquidity, is used 951 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,200 for settlement security. What Cosmos is used for 952 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,360 communication. The Cosmos has a lot of 953 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:20,720 different features. They had tournament, they had 954 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:24,960 SDK at IBC, they're called BFT, gone BFT. 955 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,280 There's a whole zone thesis with like custom app chains. 956 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,080 I think a lot of the times the zones had a lot of struggle with 957 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,520 Isotoponomics and blue shopping values. 958 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,920 That's a pretty difficult. But the one thing that was 959 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,960 always prominent and like beautiful was if you had 960 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,560 multiple zones, you could use a Cosmos CK and you connected to 961 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,120 Osmosis, you connected to your favorite chains and it's 962 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,200 permissionless interoperability which is kind of like 963 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,920 Hyperland's motto. But I really see that kind of 964 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,880 mantra spreading towards the theme of the modular stack. 965 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,560 Where in this world where you have all these roll ups and all 966 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,560 aspects of chains, you don't want to wait for a third party 967 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,000 bridge provider to always deploy. 968 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,800 If I'm building a new gaming chain I want to watch 3 weeks, I 969 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,400 sure have to wait for layer zero or any other kind of third party 970 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,280 bridge provider to deploy on top of me. 971 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,520 I should be able to use IBC or some third party pretty standard 972 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,720 to get connected to my favorite chains so I can Sprint on my 973 00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:17,960 product. So I think that's where IBC has 974 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,720 a unique market where enables for permissionless interop, a 975 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,920 few different groups building wrappers on top of it. 976 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,160 But IBC is the standard that's going to be adopted for this 977 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,320 mass welcoming of change that's coming. 978 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,520 Whereas the theorem is still like the programmable computer 979 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,480 where people building on top of it, using it for liquidity, 980 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,080 using it as like a supercomputer and then IBC is connecting on 981 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,880 it. So I think the Cosmo theorem 982 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,840 narrative and the Cosmo theorem vision is coming to fruition 983 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,680 today where maybe Cosmos zones don't win but IBC wins which 984 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,760 means that Cosmos wins and maybe that Ethereum layer like 985 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,360 Ethereum Layer 2 and Ethereum DA as don't really make sense. 986 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,720 There's also a question about what is a roll up is a if you're 987 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:01,840 really does that mean that you're a roll up or is that mean 988 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,560 L2? I think that's a frivolous 989 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,000 debate. I think as long as you can get 990 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,600 Ethereum some give some some capacity doesn't really matter. 991 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,400 I think that if. IBC wins everybody. 992 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,840 Wins. I think it's not so much. 993 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,360 About like I think the End Game is just you know and and Ethan 994 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,960 Buckman and and Sam Hart were talking about this on a on an 995 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,280 episode of I think it was like one of the Block Works podcast 996 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:24,720 recently and they were talking about the end game. 997 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:29,960 And like the end game is all chains using IBC and benefiting 998 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,200 from this amazing intro ability technology. 999 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,960 And then you know if I take it even a step further and this is 1000 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,480 sort of Corel's point of view, is that we we have this swarm of 1001 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,320 validators that is validating the state of all these chains. 1002 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,840 And as an application, you know, like there's just, you don't 1003 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,600 know who's validating your your your transaction, but it's it's 1004 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:53,800 being added to this massive sort of swarm of state, this massive 1005 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,440 state that is secured by the swarm of of validators. 1006 00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,000 I kind of see that as the as the end game where Aetherium sort of 1007 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,720 sits at the bottom layer provides liquidity provides a 1008 00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:06,000 major part of the security. But Cosmos, you know through its 1009 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,560 construction, through the construction of the the Cosmos 1010 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,560 stack and been at the forefront of of modular with the app chain 1011 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,480 thesis brings the technology and the technical philosophy to 1012 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,560 build that applications in a way that makes sense. 1013 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,320 I'm 100. Percent with you both that kind 1014 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,360 of IBC is kind of like the absolutely golden part of 1015 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,200 Cosmos. So I think this is something 1016 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,200 that kind of the theorem ecosystem is lacking and and bad 1017 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,560 kids we see it. And bad, I think. 1018 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,040 Bad kids always win. There was a. 1019 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,120 Podcast, probably already here a year and a half ago. 1020 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:48,600 Also with Ethan on Bankless. Interestingly, where kind of he 1021 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,440 argued his thesis that Ethereum is kind of like this empire 1022 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,880 where kind of everything ultimately settles back to 1023 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,800 Ethereum, where whereas kind of cosmos is like this network of 1024 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,920 cities, states with kind of like pockets of value. 1025 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,280 So now in this Cosmos and Ethereum convergence picture, 1026 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:12,320 how would that kind of translate into this metaphor in terms? 1027 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,840 Of cities and states like where? Yeah, in terms. 1028 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,560 Of like having like a giant empire where basically 1029 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,880 everything's kind of like inverted pyramid shaped and 1030 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,400 everything ultimately said it's back on main net where so like 1031 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,360 that's. I would say like the United, I 1032 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,480 would say clearly the US for example the United States would 1033 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,760 be Ethereum. You have a bunch of different 1034 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,160 states which is like you have like movement is 1 state you 1035 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,160 have like another roll up is another state you have all these 1036 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,000 different states are all over for roll ups and the highways 1037 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,320 that connect all the different states are is obviously where 1038 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,520 you need like connectivity between the different states. 1039 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,880 Otherwise if you're from California you can't get to New 1040 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,280 Jersey. If you're from like Oregon you 1041 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,840 can't get to Florida. So that's like the main problem 1042 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,520 actually between crypto is like if you look like earlier settle 1043 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,480 stage when America was first developed, this is probably just 1044 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,200 might inherit American coming out. 1045 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,240 But like there was like really it's really hard to like travel 1046 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,080 between different States and different regions. 1047 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,680 Back in old America when they built roads out and 1048 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,960 transportation properly, it was really easy to get between four 1049 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,440 states which enable people to network easily and meet their 1050 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,720 family and friends. Same thing in today's crypto 1051 00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:20,760 where you have a theorem which is like kind of the barren land. 1052 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,240 It's like it's like the 1700s out if you would say where you 1053 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,000 all of different states kind of forming but still kind of 1054 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,520 figuring out what their markets are like like California was a 1055 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,560 gold state at one point in New York was a financial hub. 1056 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,480 People were still trying to figure out their hubs in that 1057 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,600 case. And then the main thing that's 1058 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,600 missing is kind of the roads between different chains or in 1059 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,120 this case states which the Ibcs position to be a best candidate. 1060 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,600 I was like IBC would be the asphalt in this case or the 1061 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,600 concrete and then like different groups this is getting really in 1062 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,080 depth to it, but like you have like Looney and Polymer in 1063 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,440 different groups that are actually building the specific 1064 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,440 roads if it makes sense. We talked about. 1065 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,240 Adoption kind of depths that with of, you know hundreds of 1066 00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:07,920 millions if not billions of people in the very beginning 1067 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,600 kind of when we talked about Facebook's motivation to create 1068 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,400 MOVE. So what does the future look 1069 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:19,160 like for for Move and Ethereum and kind of when do you think 1070 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,480 we'll see the first steps that actually have that sort of 1071 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,800 mainstream appear? To plug myself, I was like our 1072 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,680 main net, but the the real answer would be like like it 1073 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,120 depends on what your real apps are like. 1074 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:34,000 I don't. I don't. 1075 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,640 I think there's no apps in crypto yet. 1076 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,480 We don't have any real apps yet. I'm talking about like we don't 1077 00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,000 have like an on street social app. 1078 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,880 We don't have anyone that my parents are talking, my friends 1079 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,800 are talking about. So we're still very early on 1080 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,760 that too. Like I can we can say like oh 1081 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,080 we'll have X amount of D fabs, X amount of TBL, but who really 1082 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:50,800 cares. There's just another like copy 1083 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,280 pasta of another layer or two. We're trying to build 1084 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,640 infrastructure and apps that means people can use send 1085 00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,720 payments at the speed of light across the world. 1086 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,880 So I would say like the movie system is poised to carry that 1087 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,000 through the best, A, because you have backing from two of the 1088 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,600 biggest consumer chains on the planet and then B, like the 1089 00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,960 language itself is designed for consumer development. 1090 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:15,880 So I I would say that within like three years we could see 1091 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,080 like a really prominent consumer social app that gets a lot of 1092 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,440 traction. But in the short term you will 1093 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,280 see like much much more Pro France Security 5 strategies 1094 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,880 compared to like traditional era twos than traditional methadium 1095 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,080 solutions. Great. 1096 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,000 Do you want to? Share a little bit about, yeah, 1097 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:38,480 sort of short term, I mean road map for movement, when can we 1098 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,600 expect mainnet and how can people start building on 1099 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,480 movement or perhaps getting involved? 1100 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,000 To get involved like. Go to Disco, check out like a 1101 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,360 Builders community Moving Labs XYZ website, follow me on 1102 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,440 Twitter at Ushimonchi and then we're rolling out a lot of stuff 1103 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,440 endless month and setting some announcements coming on 1104 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,000 fundraising as well as like test set aspect coming out next 1105 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,080 month. So Dev Nets fully live as well 1106 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:04,680 as it's a device test set shortly. 1107 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,600 Awesome. Rishi, thanks so much for coming 1108 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,320 on Epicenter and expanding our minds on the on the Alt VM 1109 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,800 thesis and why movement is going to the mood pressure. 1110 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:17,800 On it. Thanks so much for having me. 1111 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,760 Really appreciate the time. 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