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Hi, I'm Sebastian with you and 
you're listening to epicenter 

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the podcast will re-interview 
crypto Founders, Builders and 

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thought. 
Leaders. 

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On this show, we dive deep to 
learn how things work at a 

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technical level, and we fly high
to understand Visionary, 

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Concepts, and long-term trends. 
If you like epicenter, the best 

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And if you're new to the 

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podcast, be sure to subscribe on
Apple podcast Spotify or 

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wherever your listen. 
Today, our guest is wonbin a and

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this is part two of our two-part
interview with one. 

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So if you haven't heard part 
one, I would definitely 

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recommend you. 
Go back to last week's episode, 

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that's episode 367 to get the 
full conversation part one 

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focused on ipfs and part two is 
Saying on Fall coin and here, 

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Brian, and Federica went deep, 
with Juan into the intricacies 

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and complexities of that 
project. 

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So, of course, the discuss the 
high level and long-term vision 

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of the project. 
The technical underpinnings of 

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how fog horn works, the role and
influence of minors on the 

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protocol its proximity to the 
ethereum project and how its in 

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spin inspired by the ethereum 
project and its structure how it

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was designed and the 
complexities of Designing 

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systems that this scale. 
Falcone Foundation projects and 

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use cases being built on file 
coin and so much more. 

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I really enjoyed this 
conversation. 

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I think Juan is such a 
thoughtful finger in the space 

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and getting an update on this 
project which we had first 

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talked about five years ago, was
definitely do. 

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What's great is to learn about 
the ecosystem that is forming 

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around this technology stack. 
So on talks about an ecosystem 

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of investors that are interested
in projects that are built on 

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Fox. 
And, and I'm really looking 

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forward to the day where the 
file coin ipfs. 

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Stack is a viable alternative to
the Asher's and AWS has and 

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Google's of the world for 
building production apps and 

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given how things are evolving. 
I don't think that that future 

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is as far off as we think it 
might be anyway. 

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If you're building websites 
today, you're probably using one

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of the big cloud providers. 
And there's a good chance you're

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using Wordpress. 
I mean, it powers like 80% of 

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the websites on the internet. 
I've built a lot of Wordpress 

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websites and one of the most 
frustrating things. 

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Has always been devops. 
Well, thankfully the folks over 

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at cpanel have built the 
WordPress toolkit for C panel, 

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which is a tool that makes it 
easy for developers to manage 

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their WordPress infrastructure. 
I'll tell you a little bit more 

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about that during the interview,
but if you want to learn more 

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right now, you can go to 
epicenter dot, rocks, / cpanel, 

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and a couple of weeks ago, our 
friends over at Al Gore and 

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hosted a great webinar to help 
developers build sophisticated 

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defy apps. 
If you enjoyed that you'll love 

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their after-hours Series where 
blockchain developers can meet 

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with their team and community 
members for informal. 

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Asians about Al Gore. 
And if you want to learn more 

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about that you can go to Al Gore
and.com slash epicenter. 

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But I'll tell you more later on.
For now, here's our conversation

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with one minute. 
Now let's talk about five coin 

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by coin is the incentive layer, 
that kind of brings it all 

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together. 
What happens, another would say,

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I am someone who wants to 
retrieve some content that I 

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know, is somewhere out there. 
So basically, what would happen 

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whom would I pay who's 
incentivized by? 

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What what are the crypto 
economics going on here? 

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Yeah, I got it. 
Yeah. 

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So basically you're saying, hey 
like let's walk through kind of 

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like the the life cycle of data 
and kind of like follow it and 

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so on. 
Yeah. 

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So maybe they start with, I'll 
describe three. 

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So, first, let's think about 
adding capacity and I work then 

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adding storage. 
So, you know, a client hiring, 

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hiring a minor to add some data.
And then the third is a, another

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client kind of retrieving 
something that exists there. 

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So the first case of a minor 
that has soared to provide and a

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walks up to the network and 
Pledges certain amount of 

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sectors and a pledge is a 
commitment to the network that 

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you're going to store. 
A certain amount of you can add 

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a certain amount of capacity and
you're going to produce some 

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proofs for that capacity. 
And you also have to kind of 

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because this is really to 
consensus. 

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You have to have something at 
stake here, the answers, there's

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a certain conditions in which 
there might be certain kinds of 

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attack to. 
You could play suit, so that 

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includes kind of a deposit of 
Falcon. 

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And so a minor add storage to 
the Let's add some actual 

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capacity. 
Then gets a random seed from the

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network to store some data and 
kind of to produce a a, a to 

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kind of seal it. 
What is right now? 

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An empty sector sources just, 
you know, capacity and this is 

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a, you know, kind of a sector 
today is 32 gigabytes and then, 

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you know, there'll be kind of 
variables I sectors in the 

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future and what not. 
So, you know, a minor might walk

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in with say a terabyte or 
something like that. 

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Your divide that terabyte in to 
32 GB segments, and you now, 

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seal, all of these segments and 
the ceiling processing involves 

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doing a proof of replication 
that you're actually have that 

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capacity to provide to the 
network. 

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And as a minor you kind of have 
now signed up with a network to 

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for this. 
This capacity in addition to my 

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neck, kind of sets a and ask 
price which is how much their 

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storage is going to go for when 
clients kind of are going to 

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hire Less storage what, I'll go 
for right now if this Of a 

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global a spry. 
So a minor mostly use cases - 

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kind of have one price and 
that's it in the future we 

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anticipate we want to have a 
flexible and fluid ask model 

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where - can have can give you 
many different kind of prices 

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for different tiers of storage 
and all that kind of stuff. 

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But for now sort of like a very 
simple one price for Peralta 

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storage so that we kind of the 
minor has committed to network 

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to sort this, and now other 
parties can can view it. 

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So, now Along Comes a user 
client. 

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And since, okay, great like I 
want to store this data and so 

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the data, you know, they can 
just add it with various 

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different kinds of tools. 
So they can first that I profess

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and get a hash or they can add 
it with the following with like 

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the Lotus client which is kind 
of like the one of the main 

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pumping implementations or a 
bunch of other tools that that 

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speak these protocols, like 
textile power gate or slate, 

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which is a consumer-oriented 
application. 

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There's a bunch of other 
different kinds of things. 

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And that was the surgeon has 
been added. 

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You can now. 
Hire, you can kind of create a 

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deal to hire minor to back this 
back to back up this data. 

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And that deal is sort of a 
relationship between a client 

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and a single client and a single
Miner and a single piece of 

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data. 
It's kind of like the unit of of

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agreement. 
And as a client you probably 

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want to do this with multiple 
monitors because you want to 

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replicate your data with 
multiple different parties and, 

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and so you, now send your data 
over. 

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To you find these - in the 
network by there's a number of 

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ways, you can either enumerate 
them from the blockchain, you 

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can find them in a block 
Explorer. 

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There's a bunch of tools, I can 
show you what Miners and what 

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ask prices they have and so you 
select which minor you want and 

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you could be maybe price 
sensitive but you might also 

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take into account other 
important details about the 

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minor. 
So for example they're kind of 

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like reliability. 
There's a different kind of 

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cancer features about the minor 
that get tracked by the ball 

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chain and can sort of give you a
score. 

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Right now, there's no emergence 
for the, you know, everybody's 

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using yet but you could build 
these kind of like tried writing

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style, number some minor. 
So you become kind of like a 

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very simple way of selecting 
minors but he declined right now

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just as a minor and sensor data 
over to the source provider. 

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Once the source provider 
receives it they deal is 

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completed and the minor which is
the deal into the network. 

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There's a bunch of operations 
that happen underneath the hood 

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in order to like actually make 
that. 

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Make that work. 
There's kind of some preparation

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of the data that has to happen 
in order to make it easy to 

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prove and so on and definitely a
different sizes of the data 

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really matter, right? 
So, if you're sending a little 

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bit of theta, say a few MB, few 
kilobytes or megabytes. 

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That's going to be the kind of 
distribution is very different 

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than if you're sending gigabytes
or terabytes. 

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And so, for something the 
smaller scales that just, you 

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know, this is a very simple 
protocol where right away. 

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You can just send somebody over 
and make the deal and whatnot as

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a user. 
You this is completely hidden 

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from you. 
You, you know, the client in the

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minor are doing. 
This is how far he's doing this 

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on under the hood. 
But the users themselves on have

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to be exposed to all of this 
going on under the. 

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It's kind of like a like a 
Bitcoin transaction or any 

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theorem transaction. 
There's a lot going on happening

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under the hood for a transaction
to like move to certain plays 

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dead validated execute and 
whatnot. 

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But all of this kind of hidden 
from from the actual users. 

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But by default this is not 
encrypted, right? 

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The data. 
That it's up to the clients to 

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decide on the encryption 
structure. 

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So by default data sort of gets 
sued, encrypted is unencrypted 

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in a in a we don't call it 
encryption because that implies 

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a that it is hidden from the 
world. 

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There's a lot of data that's 
public and so you need to allow 

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people to to store data that is 
in the clear. 

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So that public data can be, can 
be used, but most, you know, our

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gate and other and other tools 
and so on. 

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Just encourage all of that ahead
of time. 

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So you know, if you are storing 
an application data and so on 

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the encrypted first and then you
you send it to the to the world,

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think of it as like the client 
software. 

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Gives the minor what they want 
the world to see. 

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And so if you want the world to 
see a public data set, then you 

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should give in the clear. 
If you want them to have a trip 

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to thing, you can do that. 
We've also thought about moving 

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to a world where the bit itself.
Anyways is stored in model and 

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analogous to encrypt. 
She's not exactly encryption but

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it's analogous to it and the 
data itself is dispersed and so 

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on and it's durable and whatnot 
but is considered kind of doing 

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public data sets by by using 
either convergent encryption or 

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or encryption where like the 
public key is like, you know, 

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side the encryption key is just 
zeros or something like that but

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it doesn't necessarily benefit. 
I think it becomes very useful 

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to be very clear about where 
when there's encryption when 

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there isn't and so far like 
that's that's been the the 

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structure that we've we 
followed. 

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Because there is this important 
utility of being able to have 

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these public publicly available 
data sets. 

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But yeah, the tooling itself, 
you know defaults to your adding

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data, you know, user-oriented 
tooling just default to 

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encrypting all of it but beyond 
that now that you've given the 

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data to the minor and like they 
publish a deal into the network 

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and the miners now schedules 
that deal in that data to be 

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sealed into a sector and and 
let's get this is scheduling 

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piece here because When you hire
a minor, you're hiring for them 

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for some amount of data and they
have to pack that into a sector 

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00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:05,100
a sector. 
It has a fixed size, right? 

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And so they kind of - collect a 
bunch of pieces from a lot of 

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parties and then they take all 
of that assemble it into a 

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sector and seal it all together.
So, you know, think of it, kind 

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of like the mental model is 
think of a large storage 

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container. 
So think of like a normal one of

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those shipping containers that 
you see on like ships and so on 

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and so your, your stuff could be
the whole container or it could 

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00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,600
be Smaller than that. 
And or if you have bigger stuff 

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than it gets like partitioned 
off and do multiple multiple 

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storage containers. 
And yeah, definitely if you if 

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you, for example, want to send 
larger amounts of data, if you 

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want to send terabytes or 
petabytes then sending it over 

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the Internet is probably a bad 
idea because it'll take you a 

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00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,000
very very long time. 
And instead of that point you 

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want to, if you are at that 
scale, what people end up doing 

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is, you know, contact the minor 
and you figure out which miners 

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00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:56,100
you want to go for and you 
contact them and you initiate a 

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deal. 
But But you now have to ship 

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them, the data physically. 
And that means like you send 

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out, send them a drive and they 
get the drive, they verify that 

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they actually got the data and 
they plug it in. 

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And this is a very important 
piece because you know vast 

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amounts of data in the world are
moved around this way and I 

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moved around over the Internet, 
it's moved entirely off the 

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internet through physical media 
medium. 

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So packaging is one of the main 
main Avenues but many large 

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Clouds also provide the support 
where they'll send, you know, I 

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think like Amazon does is where 
they can. 

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00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:36,900
You can schedule a truck to come
to your business and like get a 

242
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bunch of drives and send them to
Glacier, right? 

243
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It's like you have to fill that 
use case. 

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Once you, hit exabytes of 
storage in, like the large 

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amounts of data, you have to 
allow people to have this 

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offline first pointed way of 
moving around data, which is 

247
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really cool because it means 
that you can Not only move large

248
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amounts of data, but it means 
you can. 

249
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You can start moving things in 
ways that are like less expected

250
00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:05,000
by parties trying to predictive 
relatively figure out all the 

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parties that have whenever you 
don't rely on Crossing certain 

252
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borders on the Internet, it's 
kind of like a really useful 

253
00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:14,100
useful feature because it also 
means you can be for example, 

254
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,100
petition tolerant, right? 
So this is isn't the case today 

255
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,900
because Falcon has one 
blockchain and you can think of 

256
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:23,800
it as kind of like one single 
singular region, but in the 

257
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,300
future, As scalable chains 
arrived, and this kind of we're 

258
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:31,300
popping is headed being able to 
split into different and census 

259
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,100
regions that map to different 
regions of geographically, so 

260
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,000
that you can be partitioned. 
All right, so that you can 

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continue to make deals and serve
stuff and so on while while your

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petition from the rest of the 
world because petitioners in the

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00:13:43,108 --> 00:13:46,600
internet a pretty frequent today
already, you know if your data 

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00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,200
stored in a minor and you can 
still talk to them, doesn't 

265
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,100
matter that you can't talk to 
the rest of the network, you can

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00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:53,900
still get your data from the 
minor that's entirely off chain.

267
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:59,400
Planted transaction. yeah, so 
let's say I have a bunch of data

268
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,900
and I you know Frederick is the 
minor and I've now shipped her 

269
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:12,500
you know some big pile of data 
and that now basically we you 

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00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:16,300
know in some level the the 
finger describing right there is

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00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:19,700
actually this kind of you know, 
direct transaction like direct 

272
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:23,600
connection right between me who 
wants to store the data and you 

273
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:29,100
know her, who's the minor So 
file coin, what does it add in 

274
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,000
this scenario? 
Is it, is it basically that she 

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has to put up some collateral 
and then the Falcon Network and 

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00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,000
forces that she actually does 
store it in the long run. 

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00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,600
And then also, that there's this
kind of like guarantee that, you

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00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,600
know, other people can retrieve 
the data. 

279
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,900
And again, she has to kind of 
like guarantee that level of 

280
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service. 
Exactly. 

281
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,900
Yeah, so all when you described 
and those are really critical 

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components because you know, 
today people trust the big 

283
00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,500
clouds because of that 
reputation and because you can 

284
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:02,800
trust them to continue storing 
your data rate, your many 

285
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,400
smaller think of it. 
Kind of like the hotel and 

286
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,900
Airbnb world where before I 
became on you totally could go 

287
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,600
and stay in random people's 
houses. 

288
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000
Well, the idea that you could 
like how do you find them? 

289
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,200
How do you trust Ask them. 
What is the guarantee that there

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00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,100
you're actually going to be able
to you actually going to have a 

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place when you get there and 
people are going to receive you 

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00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:28,800
and you don't have a good 
pictures of places or you know, 

293
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,700
how do you guarantee good 
behavior. 

294
00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,300
They're like the aren't going to
Steel yourself in the middle of 

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00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,800
the night or something. 
All of that before we can be was

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really hard to establish. 
It definitely happened, right? 

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00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:42,300
Like there were a lot of people 
traveling around this way, but 

298
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:46,500
it was a way smaller amount of 
parties in there was a lot more 

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00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,500
risk. 
So, when everybody came in and 

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00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:51,800
create a Marketplace that 
standardize the entire flow and 

301
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,100
standardize, what it meant to be
on the supply side and sanitized

302
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:57,700
what I meant to be on the, on 
the demand side and build, a 

303
00:15:57,708 --> 00:16:01,700
bunch of tooling to add sort 
some amount of reputation 

304
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:04,200
systems to it. 
And so, on a verifiability 

305
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,400
around the pictures and whatnot,
it just sort of cleaned up the 

306
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,600
entire market and it can greatly
expanded its potential. 

307
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,900
Suddenly tons of places could be
online, right? 

308
00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:16,400
So if you have a bunch of 
storage and you want to kind of 

309
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,100
Sell it online. 
How do you go about doing that 

310
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,700
similar to if you have a spare 
room, how do you go about 

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selling a night in that room 
without a Marketplace? 

312
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:26,700
And so that's, you know, one of 
the really critical components 

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00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:29,700
is you need in marketplaces, 
standardizing create a protocol 

314
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:32,500
for how all of these 
interactions are supposed to 

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00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:36,800
happen and you solve a bunch of 
hard problems in the kind of 

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00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,400
really add a lot of value. 
Like the guaranteeing that the 

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00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,600
search is going to be there in 
the long term. 

318
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,200
Like that's a really critical 
component in any kind of storage

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00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,500
relationship having a Network 
that's large enough to 

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00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:52,300
accommodate a large use, right? 
So, if it was, if you were kind 

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00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:55,400
of browsing around individual 
websites and you hear about 

322
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,400
somebody having like 10 
terabytes or like one petabyte, 

323
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,300
like, well should I store my 
data with this, this group, or 

324
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:04,900
should I just got it on Amazon? 
If you have a very simple 

325
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:07,099
choice. 
But if you insert set ourselves 

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00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:11,300
dealing with one large Network 
and you can certainly expect the

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00:17:11,308 --> 00:17:14,099
same kind of quality of service 
across it or you know, some 

328
00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:16,599
amount of variability between a 
between it, but you have a 

329
00:17:16,608 --> 00:17:17,900
saint. 
That's protocol for it. 

330
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:21,200
Then you're totally able to 
trust a lot of service providers

331
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,099
that can come into that to that 
marketplace, right? 

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00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:28,900
So it's a, it's really about 
kind of providing a way for the 

333
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:32,300
vast amount of Supply out there 
to come together and aggregate 

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00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,700
into one Marketplace. 
That then clients can do 

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00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:38,300
business with. 
I've been building WordPress 

336
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:41,500
websites for over 10 years and 
the most frustrating thing has 

337
00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:44,700
always been devops. 
I'm talking about deployment 

338
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:47,400
maintenance backups and database
management. 

339
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,600
I've lost so many hours of sleep
doing WordPress infrastructure 

340
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,600
management. 
If you've been building websites

341
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,400
for as long as I have your 
definitely familiar with cpanel.

342
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,100
They've been providing web 
hosting management software for 

343
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:00,500
25 years. 
Well, they have a new product 

344
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,300
it's called the WordPress 
toolkit for cpanel and I've been

345
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:05,000
given an opportunity to try it 
out. 

346
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,800
It's really cool. 
It makes managing your 

347
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,700
WordPress. 
It's really easy. 

348
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:11,200
You can manage multiple 
WordPress sites from One 

349
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,800
dashboard and you can manage 
users and databases to and 

350
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,600
because all your websites are 
managed from a single interface,

351
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:19,700
you'll be more efficient. 
This is really useful. 

352
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:22,400
If you're running multiple 
environments like staging and 

353
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,100
production, the WordPress 
toolkit can also apply security 

354
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,500
settings and policies to all 
your size at once. 

355
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,100
So you can Harden and protect 
your company's website. 

356
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:35,000
There's a free light version and
a deluxe paid version that has 

357
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,000
added features like website 
cloning and smart updates. 

358
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,500
That's also great if you're 
running multiple environments. 

359
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,200
Anyway, if you're doing anything
with WordPress today, I would 

360
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,100
really encourage you to check 
this out because it will make 

361
00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,500
your life so much easier to 
learn more about the WordPress 

362
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:51,400
toolkit for cpanel and be 
informed when it comes out. 

363
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,900
Go to epicenter, dot rocks, /, C
panel that's CPA any L. 

364
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,900
We'd like to thank cpanel for 
their support of the podcast. 

365
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,900
So the a B&B system kind of 
evolved gradually right? 

366
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:08,600
So, basically they have a 
customer support hotline and if 

367
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,100
something goes wrong you call 
them and basically worst case 

368
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,100
they give you a money back and 
you go look for, you know, 

369
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,100
physical hotel where ever you're
stranded. 

370
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,700
So in a way designing a 
decentralized network is 

371
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:23,700
fundamentally different in that.
It's kind of important to get 

372
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,200
parameters right from the 
get-go. 

373
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:30,100
And there's a lot of parameters.
I mean pertaining to, you know, 

374
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:34,100
the Staking and the slashing and
you know liveness guarantees and

375
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,200
so on. 
How did you go about designing 

376
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,600
those economics? 
Great question. 

377
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,400
So one part is just figuring out
what mechanisms do you need? 

378
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,600
And a lot of that is thinking 
about the the interactions in 

379
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,000
the flows between parties and 
what are the value flows that 

380
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,500
are happening? 
What guarantees you need to 

381
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:58,700
establish thing through many, 
many kinds of layers of a 

382
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,200
potential attacks that might 
Might be possible. 

383
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,500
What are the assumptions all 
over the place? 

384
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:06,200
You want to minimize any kind of
trust and make the transactions 

385
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,300
themselves verifiable? 
And so that map to things like 

386
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,100
producing per cell replication 
so that you can, you can 

387
00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,500
guarantee that the storage is 
actually there. 

388
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,200
And in map to things like an 
ongoing proposed FaceTime that 

389
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,700
you where you can verify that 
this stuff is Not only was there

390
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:25,900
initially but continues to be 
there over time and in map to 

391
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:29,000
mechanisms like what of the fee 
structures and the punishments 

392
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,800
that need to be the fees. 
And punishments for bad behavior

393
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,500
in the network, right? 
So if a minor losses data or or 

394
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:40,800
things like that, and one part 
of this was designing, first, 

395
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:41,900
you think about all these value 
flows? 

396
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:44,500
You think about the mechanisms, 
then you start thinking about 

397
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:48,700
what are the possible Feast, not
only structures, but value flow.

398
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,700
Some things have to be 
proportional in certain ways. 

399
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,300
Some things have to be at least 
a certain amount. 

400
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:56,600
Some things have to be markets 
and kind of set by various 

401
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,500
different parties. 
Together certain things have to 

402
00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:00,900
be estimators on network. 
Activity. 

403
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,900
So there's a there's really a 
very large amount of space here 

404
00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:08,600
and a ton of parameters. 
The way we went about, this is a

405
00:21:08,608 --> 00:21:13,400
large combination of of analysis
on individual mechanisms 

406
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,400
themselves and then couplings of
mechanisms and, you know, and so

407
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,300
on further plus then a whole 
perfect Comics effort to build 

408
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:27,000
using both simulation and, and 
kind of like larger scale 

409
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,800
analysis Frameworks for figuring
out the Structures that would 

410
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,900
yield good results. 
Meaning one part of this is 

411
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,300
thinking deeply through the 
problems and coming up with 

412
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,600
actual analytical. 
Expressions. 

413
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:43,700
That tell you what, the fee 
structure space has to be. 

414
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,300
So you figure out all the 
constraints between these 

415
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:49,200
systems systems of components 
and mechanisms, and you kind of 

416
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,100
narrow down the space of 
possibility, so that gives you 

417
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:53,400
some kind of operating range, 
but that doesn't guarantee that 

418
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,000
is going to work. 
It just kind of gives you some 

419
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,800
sense of what the constraints 
have to be from there. 

420
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,900
Some amount is also putting it 
into a Engineering and and 

421
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:04,900
development and actually running
it live. 

422
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:09,200
So we did, we did a number of 
large-scale network tests with 

423
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,700
many miners to figure out what 
kind of operating parameters 

424
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:14,000
were workable in a number of 
these things. 

425
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,000
You know, theory is one thing, 
practice is something very 

426
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,400
different and and you know, you 
learn a lot by actually putting 

427
00:22:20,408 --> 00:22:24,000
things directly in use. 
But you know, one big area of 

428
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,200
this was a large simulation and 
ever that we that we undertook 

429
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,000
to figure out what a bunch of 
Different mechanism parameters 

430
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,600
have to be in order to yield 
yield, good results. 

431
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:39,000
And this is kind of a very large
effort with a lot of people both

432
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,900
within and outside of PL. 
So this is this includes various

433
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,700
different teams when PL but also
a number of external 

434
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:50,100
collaborators in academic 
environments and really awesome 

435
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,700
group called block science. 
We've been super super helpful 

436
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:54,900
in building. 
A lot of the doing some of the 

437
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:58,200
simulation and Analysis and you 
know, number of research groups 

438
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,000
that we collaborated with for 
many years on Different parts of

439
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,200
the protocol and so you end up 
with like a large mechanism 

440
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,000
design space, and a bunch of 
parameters that you then have to

441
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,400
make sure play nice. 
And this is probably one of the 

442
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,500
biggest hurdles for not, just 
for Falcon, but for the entire 

443
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,000
web, three space. 
It is extremely difficult to 

444
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,200
build these kinds of larger 
scale systems. 

445
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,800
That do something more complex, 
because the state space blows up

446
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,400
exponentially and kind of like 
what the what the parameters 

447
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,900
please, you have to search 
through really becomes very, 

448
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,700
very large and a lot of it is 
you can easily Up with 

449
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:34,400
mechanisms that are too fragile 
where maybe the operating range 

450
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,600
that you have is actually quite 
small, but some other mechanism 

451
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,000
couples with in a weird way in 
this kind of like causes this 

452
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,900
this space to oscillate in a 
weird way and maybe kind of like

453
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:45,700
actually breaks things here. 
So it's part of the part of the 

454
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:47,700
output is like once you do a 
bunch of this analysis 

455
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,200
simulation, you end up realizing
that some mechanisms actually 

456
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,500
have to change. 
So, not only do you, not only 

457
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,100
have a parameter settings. 
Sometimes you end up having to 

458
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:58,300
change mechanisms to arrive at a
much better. 

459
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,300
More stable Construction. 
Because simulation just showed 

460
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:05,900
you both both either. 
Sometimes just directly in 

461
00:24:05,908 --> 00:24:10,200
analysis or simulation shows you
that this is actually like a bad

462
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,400
system design because it is too 
likely to, you know, most of the

463
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,300
cases that you check out our 
failures or it is maybe it is 

464
00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,100
not. 
It may be its kind of fragile. 

465
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:22,900
And if you're familiar with kind
of like the fragility of our 

466
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:26,200
Center for agility way of 
analyzing systems, where some 

467
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,200
systems are fragile, once you 
kind of push them in certain 

468
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,100
ways, they Will tend to and push
them out of their considered 

469
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,400
normal comfort zone. 
And they'll, they'll they'll 

470
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,900
tend to break all their systems.
Kind of respond, more naturally,

471
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:41,100
to kind of those stresses and 
kind of recover from those 

472
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:43,400
dresses better. 
So that kind of lends it for 

473
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,500
agility versus antifragility. 
You can you can apply to this. 

474
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:50,800
And in your analysis simulation,
you'll be able to kind of 

475
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,800
distinguish what which mechanism
sent to be fragile. 

476
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,500
And it kind of remove them 
because fragile mechanisms will 

477
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:00,100
lead to attack vectors and will 
lie to you. 

478
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,000
Might work for now, but one 
somebody changes something, then

479
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,000
you might get into that state or
actually, you think it'll work 

480
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,200
but there's an embedded hidden, 
assumption somewhere that you 

481
00:25:10,208 --> 00:25:12,400
never expected them. 
Something like that actually 

482
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,300
doesn't work. 
So it's a highly complex 

483
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:18,200
Endeavor to build an economy 
like this. 

484
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,700
I mean, I think something like 
the like a theorem is similar in

485
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:24,600
that when you think about all of
the different mechanisms that 

486
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,400
are at play and the gas 
structure. 

487
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,500
And so on, in an appearance 
case, a lot of this kind of All 

488
00:25:30,508 --> 00:25:34,100
the overtime and parameters were
set and improved upon over many 

489
00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:37,600
months and that kind of scaled 
with usage and even kind of like

490
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,700
a gas model is kind of going 
into it into a major re working 

491
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:47,500
with you know the IP if it is 
1559 and that you know, if 

492
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:50,200
you're in this case it seems 
able to shipping out with a much

493
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,300
smaller amount of usage and then
over time scale we weren't we 

494
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:57,300
unfortunately did not have that 
luxury like right away because 

495
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:00,200
we're kind of now in 2020 is 
supposed to in 2015. 

496
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,400
There's a lot more attention in 
the space as a whole and in 

497
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,700
applications like popcorn. 
And so therefore, just from day 

498
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:09,400
one, we're going to get a much 
larger scale of usage. 

499
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,500
So we had to get a lot more 
right from the get-go which was 

500
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:18,300
definitely harder larger bar, 
but it made it, you know, we now

501
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,800
ended up with a much more robust
thing and one of the cool things

502
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,100
is like we're actually shipped 
chips yappy 1559 like, that's 

503
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:28,100
the gas model that we use and it
actually works really well. 

504
00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:34,300
It just leads to certain kind of
Fast base fee, spikes, that food

505
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,300
for thought, for anybody working
on this area of gas modeling and

506
00:26:37,308 --> 00:26:40,400
so on really, really good 
structure, but leads to kind of 

507
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,500
like some spikes that make some 
people really unhappy and it's 

508
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:43,800
easy to kind of run up the base 
B. 

509
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,500
So we are getting a lot of data,
think that will be helpful for 

510
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:49,400
the ethereum community as well. 
Anyway, there's no K. 

511
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,200
Large complex. 
Space. 

512
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,000
One of us are a poisson on this 
is that this is an area where a 

513
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,500
lot of tools need to be made. 
So we had to build a bunch of 

514
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:04,300
internal to NG to, you know, and
all kinds of tools to analyze 

515
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,700
things in parts or as a whole 
system and kind of like 

516
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:13,100
simulation Frameworks to be able
to model this kind of economic 

517
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:17,100
system. 
And this is an area where we 

518
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:18,700
definitely wouldn't want to go 
back to this. 

519
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,400
And and think about what kind of
tooling will be really broadly 

520
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,900
usable by a large number of 
groups to really kind of, you 

521
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:29,400
know, kind of analyze an 
in-depth. 

522
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:32,000
How much This economic 
mechanisms should work. 

523
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,700
But also, what's more important 
than analysis? 

524
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:36,700
I think, is helping generate 
them. 

525
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:40,600
So I think this is where this 
this whole web three world is at

526
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,900
a juncture similar to where I 
think chip manufacturing was 

527
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,200
when you transition from kind of
like human design, to computer 

528
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,100
designed chips where the 
constraints Mase. 

529
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:55,800
Got so big and and the and the 
difficulty problem kind of 

530
00:27:55,808 --> 00:27:58,800
scaled to the point where people
needed to write software to do 

531
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,200
all of the chip layout and and 
solve a bunch of problems. 

532
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,100
That previously, you know, they 
weren't expected humans to solve

533
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:07,200
but now computers have to solve 
just because of the magnitude. 

534
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:11,700
I think we're definitely well in
that space where now most 

535
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,900
perfect Autumn he's that are 
going to see major usage. 

536
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,300
Really should be should have 
mechanisms that are designed and

537
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:21,700
checked in great part by by 
programs. 

538
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:25,500
And the tooling is just not 
there and does not exist for any

539
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,600
of us. 
And that is a huge area of 

540
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:32,200
improvement that I think if we 
had really robust tooling, we 

541
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,800
could shave months, two years 
off of the development of every 

542
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,000
major project out there. 
And all of the scalability 

543
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,900
improvements that are going to 
come in into a lot of the 

544
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:45,200
projects that are out there now.
So it's a kind of a really open.

545
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,800
You know, if any listener out 
there is is interested in these 

546
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,100
kinds of topics and has been 
looking for a project or 

547
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:53,400
something like that, I think. 
Building really, really good. 

548
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,400
Tooling for vertical designers. 
Here is greatly needed. 

549
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,900
That's something that we are 
kind of exploring as well as to 

550
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,900
if we were kind of doing this 
from scratch. 

551
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,200
What are the kinds of tools that
we would have wanted to have? 

552
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,400
And what are the kinds of tools 
that we want for the future 

553
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,300
versions of how clean and and 
other protocols and whatnot? 

554
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200
And how my we build those. 
So either somebody else will go 

555
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,700
out there and build this or or 
we'll have to so ideally 

556
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:18,400
somebody else will do it and we 
won't have to do it because then

557
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,000
we can just use your thing and 
I'll be amazing. 

558
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,800
So please do that. 
Otherwise, We'll probably end up

559
00:29:22,808 --> 00:29:26,200
building something here at some 
point because there's a lot of 

560
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,200
utility to be had in. 
Making it way easier to build 

561
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,000
these systems, we're kind of 
hitting the limit of what teams 

562
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,300
of humans can do is just way too
complex. 

563
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,200
And I think today, you can 
probably probably the attacks 

564
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,300
space on contracts and ethereum 
is so big. 

565
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:46,200
That there are probably tons of 
exploits at the moment that are 

566
00:29:46,208 --> 00:29:48,700
possible because of the 
combinations of contracts, but 

567
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,600
are not explored because we just
don't have the tools to explore 

568
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,000
them. 
Getting the again, the comments 

569
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,800
are just pushing the so big, 
that humans can't be expected to

570
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:59,700
figure this out. 
And so now we really need an 

571
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,900
assistant to help us find those 
and close those vulnerabilities 

572
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:06,800
before somebody kind of builds 
this tooling for bad and then it

573
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,700
kind of explains it. 
But that would still mean that 

574
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,400
basically you would have to 
specify the intended Behavior, 

575
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,700
right? 
So basically you kind of like in

576
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,600
for my verification, are you 
kind of have to specify what you

577
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,900
expect, the business logic of 
the thing to be and building 

578
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:28,800
tooling for how we think about 
expected Behavior? 

579
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,500
I mean, basically, it's kind of 
like a recursive problem know, 

580
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:38,000
Yes, and no in that today, when 
people go on design protocols, 

581
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:41,300
they usually do it in their 
heads and on maybe paper and the

582
00:30:41,308 --> 00:30:45,500
kind of writer no notebook. 
And you know, then later they'll

583
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:49,900
go and transcribe that into a 
GitHub issue and will work in a 

584
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:54,300
some other markdown document and
and you'll get a bunch of kind 

585
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:58,900
of paper protocol stuff and that
at some point people will after 

586
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:01,800
many rounds of iteration and and
review people will then turn. 

587
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:06,500
Turn that and start writing it 
into some implementation, 

588
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:09,200
sometimes it's prototypes that 
test of validity of something. 

589
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,400
Before you do any kind of like 
hard engineering work for the 

590
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,600
real kind of production, use 
many times, it's just, you know,

591
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,100
go straight to the production 
use unlike start building it 

592
00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:20,400
into the main client, which, you
know, that's going to be way 

593
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200
slow, probably way slower. 
But because, you know, you're 

594
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,800
going to find protocol problems 
in and pay the big cost of 

595
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,900
putting it into the main thing. 
And then, after all of that, 

596
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:31,800
hopefully you've gone through 
enough rounds of analysis. 

597
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,100
That in the paper stages. 
And if you're dealing with 

598
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:36,700
economics and a friend, some 
kind of larger scale framework 

599
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,700
analysis and simulation to 
really know the mechanisms are, 

600
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:42,600
right, and they are going to 
like put into production and use

601
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,500
it and then hope for the best 
and like, you know, we're trying

602
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,700
to find problems and fix them. 
And that's kind of like the 

603
00:31:48,708 --> 00:31:51,800
state of the industry. 
And I think that most of these 

604
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,000
Protocols are big enough, that 
you have dozens to hundreds of 

605
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,300
people working on them. 
And maintaining the protocol 

606
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,400
space in one head is just not a 
thing. 

607
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,200
You can do. 
Anymore. 

608
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,100
So what I'm going to talk to you
about is you need people to 

609
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:07,800
start working in software from 
the get-go. 

610
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:13,100
You need people to when they're 
designing the protocol at the 

611
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:18,900
very beginning, you can greatly 
reduce the iteration cycle by 

612
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:22,100
doing very kind of 
straightforward modeling work, 

613
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:26,300
that will kind of show that some
mechanism is just not tractable 

614
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:31,300
or, and it won't fit with some 
other components or wood will 

615
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:34,100
not kind of Function. 
So it is something close to 

616
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,600
formal verification or kind of 
like the CLA plus style from a 

617
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,100
vacation or something like that 
but I think it's got to be just 

618
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:44,600
dramatically easier. 
I think most of them over 

619
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,400
vacation languages and systems 
are way too complex for this. 

620
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,500
Use case this has to be as 
simple as writing an expression 

621
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:53,300
in kind of observable or 
something like that. 

622
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:57,400
Where you have a kind of full 
system design somewhere and 

623
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,200
you're designing parts of the 
protocol and it's a very kind of

624
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,000
individual researcher or 
Oriented an individual developer

625
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,600
oriented tool that enables you 
to kind of add components to the

626
00:33:06,608 --> 00:33:08,800
protocol. 
But but it's not just one 

627
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,700
protocol. 
It's rather like you can think 

628
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:12,800
of a bunch of different 
versions, possible versions of 

629
00:33:12,808 --> 00:33:15,200
the protocol, with different 
kind of mechanisms and you can 

630
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,000
test against all of these 
different combinations. 

631
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,600
And you can think through which 
ones end up yielding better 

632
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,700
results and you can kind of 
couple that with simulation and 

633
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:26,900
kind of model checking across 
the whole thing. 

634
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,400
Then you can greatly increase 
the speed of of building 

635
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,700
something as complex as 
ethereum. 51 and so on. 

636
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,700
And I think right now you know 
kind of back in the day, the 

637
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,100
software industry faced a 
similar can transition between 

638
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:44,000
writing software and tests 
versus the entire continuous 

639
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,800
integration system that we have 
now. 

640
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,500
So today you write code and you 
can not only write tests and 

641
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:53,200
urine tests for your app, your 
part of the application and 

642
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,500
whatnot and kind of larger 
integration tests. 

643
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:59,100
But it is in Industry Norm that 
all of that is going to get 

644
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:04,100
tested through a very Wide 
Battery of tests across many 

645
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,200
different kind of 
infrastructures before he gets 

646
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,000
deployed. 
And, and once it passes all of 

647
00:34:08,007 --> 00:34:11,300
these performance requirements, 
then it will actually kind of 

648
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,400
ship, right? 
So if you've seen kind of the 

649
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,000
dashboard performance dashboards
for Chrome or Firefox, that will

650
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,400
give you a sense of every single
line of code gets tested across 

651
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:25,800
a, a really gargantuan amount of
tests that test all kinds of 

652
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:26,600
things. 
And if you introduced 

653
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,199
accidentally a performance hit 
somewhere, everyone will know. 

654
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:31,699
Like, you'll see like all kinds 
of charts. 

655
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,800
You know this is this is going 
bad and software has moved to 

656
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,600
this kind of design space and 
Engineering space because that 

657
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,500
was a way to make the 
development of these kinds of 

658
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:44,300
large infrastructure projects so
much faster, right? 

659
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:46,900
So something like Chrome or 
Firefox has hundreds of people 

660
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:50,699
developing on the, you can't do 
that in without that kind of 

661
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,199
tooling and that kind of testing
infrastructure in place. 

662
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:55,800
So that's what I think is 
necessary for these particles 

663
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,200
going forward, we need that kind
of the analogous version of that

664
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,400
kind of testing infrastructure, 
which is not Just the software 

665
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,000
yet. 
This point is really the 

666
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,800
mechanism design has to be 
included in it because there's 

667
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,700
just way too much for individual
researchers to be able to handle

668
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,500
the larger complexity. 
And if you think that, you know,

669
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:17,300
many different developers out 
there and saying they're in 

670
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:20,700
developers because I think this 
is kind of like the kind of like

671
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:23,700
largest smart kind of platform 
out there with whitest. 

672
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:28,100
Use this probably applies to 
most blockchains many of them. 

673
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:31,100
They overshot their kind of 
approach writing a contract, 

674
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:34,500
simply They just kind of you 
know if they're if they're right

675
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,600
there solidity contract and then
they think about how what 

676
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:38,700
explains there might be in that 
one. 

677
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:40,500
And there's a bunch of tooling 
that helps, you think about how 

678
00:35:40,508 --> 00:35:43,900
to improve it and so on and 
maybe check some important 

679
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:48,000
cases, you know, few groups 
actually think through what are 

680
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,900
all the other mechanisms 
available to any theorem 

681
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,100
contract, what other theorem 
contracts are out there and how 

682
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,500
is my contract going to get 
exploited by one of those out 

683
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,100
there, right? 
So am I accidentally creating a 

684
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:00,800
thing where somebody with flash 
alone capabilities is going to 

685
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,700
destroy the entire ER mechanism,
I just built or not. 

686
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:05,800
Right. 
And hey today is Flash loans 

687
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,500
tomorrow. 
It's like some other completely 

688
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:09,300
different thing and so you need 
it. 

689
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:13,900
You need a whole software, cic 
d-type version thing, but for 

690
00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:18,800
the entire mechanism design 
space, Our friends over at Al 

691
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,000
Gore and are starting an office 
hours Series. 

692
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:23,800
So every week or two, algren 
will bring together two, team 

693
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,200
partners, and Community together
for a live discussion intend to 

694
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,200
provide you with all the answers
and resources, you need towards 

695
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,500
building useful. 
Meaningful blockchain 

696
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:34,800
applications by joining office 
hours. 

697
00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:37,800
You'll learn how to get started 
with command line tools, and use

698
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,800
the SDK and rest, apis, to help 
you build applications for use 

699
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,100
cases, like, crowdfunding asset 
tokenization Supply Chain 

700
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:47,300
management, and gaming 
applications. 

701
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:50,200
Each office hour. 
We'll start with a theme for 

702
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,200
example, smart contracts or 
writing contracts in Python 

703
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,400
followed by an open Q&A and 
chat. 

704
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:58,300
So if you're building a 
blockchain protocol that has 

705
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,500
unfeasibly high or unpredictable
transaction fees and doesn't 

706
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:04,600
provide you the speed you need 
or if you work at a large 

707
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,100
Enterprise or financial 
institution and are interested 

708
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,300
in learning how to build 
applications that can integrate 

709
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:12,300
with your current technology 
stack or whether you have no 

710
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,800
blockchain experience at all. 
And just looking to take the 

711
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,300
first step into learning 
something new, I'll Grant could 

712
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:20,800
be the right solution for you to
learn more visit aljazeera.com, 

713
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,800
epicenter for developer 
resources and information about 

714
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,900
their next office hours. 
We'd like to thank Helga ran for

715
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:32,000
their support of the podcast. 
I mean, did you thing that like 

716
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:35,400
this topic, where it really 
struck me was that? 

717
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,600
Well, this is book called. 
I mean book it's kind of like a 

718
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,200
compilation of satoshi's 
writing. 

719
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,600
I think it's called The Book of 
Satoshi. 

720
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,400
So some guy went to, you know 
all of the old Bitcoin talk and 

721
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,300
like all of the kind of things. 
So she ate And then kind of like

722
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,400
organize it compile it and it's 
really cool to read. 

723
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,200
And one of the things that 
really struck me when I was 

724
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,300
reading, the thing was that, you
know, Satoshi is far as we know,

725
00:37:57,300 --> 00:37:59,800
right? 
He didn't anticipate like a six 

726
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,900
and he didn't participate mining
pools. 

727
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:06,700
And, you know, Bitcoin is such a
simple economic design. 

728
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:10,100
It, you can hardly make a simple
economic design for like a 

729
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:14,400
cryptocurrency and then even if 
such a simple design, it seems 

730
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,600
like there is easy, no major 
unintended Good consequences 

731
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,100
that have kind of worked out 
fine, but, you know, they seem 

732
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:26,300
to not have been predictable or,
you know, you know, in 

733
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,500
retrospect if we can see like 
out, of course, this was going 

734
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:31,000
to happen. 
But like so then, if you think 

735
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,900
of like more complex systems 
like, you know, pretty much most

736
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,400
cryptocurrency since then, and 
you know, especially things like

737
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,200
file calling. 
But, you know, even you theorem 

738
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600
right, where you have a 
different pricing for opcodes 

739
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,700
every previous take thing. 
I, yeah, I think you're totally 

740
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:48,800
right, right. 
This is Chair hard problem in 

741
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,600
such an important problem to 
get, right? 

742
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,800
And you'll probably also you're 
going to have to have some, you 

743
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,300
know, some level of ability to 
respond actually, that's the 

744
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:00,800
question. 
I want to bring up here before 

745
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,500
is or how does governance work 
in the file coin Network? 

746
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,800
Yeah Rick. 
Okay so maybe I'll address the 

747
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:10,900
kind of like a because of the 
flow of conversation all dress 

748
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,700
the smaller case of how do you 
respond to problems and then 

749
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:16,500
kind of remove the broader 
governance question. 

750
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,100
So how do your son's problems is
a really key thing for 

751
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:24,000
blockchains and blockchains that
don't address this directly and 

752
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:30,300
try to have a lot of value will 
not end well in our case, the 

753
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:33,400
Falcon community and sort of 
formed a set of first of all, 

754
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,000
there's the, the parties running
the network are There's a lot of

755
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,800
minors that are maintaining the 
blockchain and they have a 

756
00:39:40,808 --> 00:39:42,200
really good distribution of 
power. 

757
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,300
So many other block chains are 
super centralized and in our 

758
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:49,600
case, we have a much better kind
of distribution over all with 

759
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,600
the power then that many other 
networks out. 

760
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,800
There there's a lot more kind of
miners in the contribute to say 

761
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,300
have the power or some type of 
personal power than in a lot of,

762
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:00,500
a lot of other systems. 
There's one important thing too 

763
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,400
because it prevents many kinds 
of attacks being exploited very 

764
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,500
quickly. 
You know, there's a number of 

765
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:08,600
network operators that at our 
have a number of Communication 

766
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,200
channel set up and ready for for
problems. 

767
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,400
And the number of developers 
both across various different 

768
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:19,200
organizations and companies that
are pretty familiar with. 

769
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:22,800
There's for implementations, 
there's one main one, the most 

770
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,900
people run today, but there's a 
few others that are joining very

771
00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:28,100
soon and a lot of those 
developers are going to In The 

772
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:31,600
Weeds of a lot of this plus 
there's a few other miners that 

773
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,100
have development shops 
associated with them so there's 

774
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:37,400
a number of developers. 
Those miners have Well, it's 

775
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,400
kind of like this group of 
operate Network operators in 

776
00:40:39,408 --> 00:40:42,700
this group of developers and 
there's organizations that have 

777
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:48,000
set up on Call rotations for The
Operators and the developers to 

778
00:40:48,008 --> 00:40:50,600
be able to address problems. 
Should they emerge? 

779
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,300
So if there's kind of some 
problem and it requires 

780
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:59,300
addressing very quickly, then we
can figure out what the problem 

781
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:01,800
is. 
As a community describe what the

782
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,800
patch needs to be, discussed it 
on GitHub, whether it is fully 

783
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,500
publicly And if it's not kind of
an exploit that's gonna if it's 

784
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:13,100
animal, can natural problem or a
well-known thing or privately. 

785
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:16,800
If it's a thing where it's in 
this kind of an exploit, that's 

786
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,700
potentially, we're going to 
exploit where the or something 

787
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:22,300
like that. 
And then kind of arrived at what

788
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:23,600
a potential path might look 
like. 

789
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,100
And number of people look at it 
and think is a great upon and 

790
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:32,100
then shipped out in a release 
and then that's a release of the

791
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:33,900
code. 
And the that point kind of 

792
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,400
network operators in number of 
miners Get that release, 

793
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,000
download the code upgrade their 
own set of, you know, if they 

794
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,800
agree with that, they download 
the code upgrade and kind of go 

795
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,600
from there. 
And there are kind of upgrades 

796
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,200
that are just software only and 
then there are chain upgrade, 

797
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,200
such a upgrades require kind of 
a state transition and that 

798
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,100
sequences are slower. 
Unfortunately and harder we had 

799
00:41:56,100 --> 00:42:01,200
it as a requirement for for 
Space Race to go through a 

800
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,000
number of really hard State 
transitions in very short, term 

801
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,400
Cycles to kind of help boots. 
Strap the community activity 

802
00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:11,800
around this, this kind of work. 
So that the community kind of 

803
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,900
got used to making important 
changes, state upgrades quickly 

804
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,500
because of some major problem 
emerges. 

805
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:21,400
You need the community, be able 
to respond to that kind of 

806
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,800
stuff, fast and the normal 
setting of cloud infrastructure,

807
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,200
where there's one company 
running things, or maybe two or 

808
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,700
something like that 
coordination. 

809
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:33,200
There's can be could be faster, 
you know, in a world with many 

810
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,900
other stakeholders, it could be 
slower. 

811
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,000
In our case. 
We think that we are Two things 

812
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,900
as fast, if not faster than, 
then other other kind of more 

813
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:45,100
traditional centralized systems 
because we've taken on the work 

814
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:49,400
of thinking about this as a goal
for the network and many Miners 

815
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,800
and developers are aligned 
against that problem, we have 

816
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,900
kind of Emergency Response 
protocol so we've set up put in 

817
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:58,200
place for for this you know, 
thankfully we haven't had to 

818
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:01,500
deal with anything in two major.
I mean not going one and all 

819
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:03,500
that kind of stuff, many many 
other networks. 

820
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,100
Even by our age, we had already 
Ready kind of encountered a 

821
00:43:07,107 --> 00:43:09,700
bunch of problems. 
We've had a number of important 

822
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,300
improvements and changes that 
need to happen quickly but 

823
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,900
nothing kind of super major we 
will eventually right? 

824
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,200
So every every block chain goes 
through, very large kind of 

825
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:23,000
stabilizing hard problems. 
You know, theorem had many. 

826
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,900
So many blockchains that kind of
these types of problems is just 

827
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:28,300
the nature of software and the 
nature of these systems. 

828
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,000
So, the best thing is like a lot
of preventative measures. 

829
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,300
Plus a lot of kind of fast 
response measures to be able to,

830
00:43:35,308 --> 00:43:38,900
kind of solve the The problem 
though is kind of like the how 

831
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:41,700
does the path when I work as a 
community to respond to these 

832
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:45,800
kinds of issues and and you know
it's been really awesome to see 

833
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,900
the response in general from 
many different groups like 

834
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:51,400
individual and thinking of like 
individual Miners and individual

835
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,000
developers in different 
communities that have helped 

836
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,500
signed bugs, or helped come up 
with patches or submitted things

837
00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:00,500
and it releases and so. 
On broader question of, how does

838
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,900
governance work? 
That's a, we hear we borrow the 

839
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,300
ton from a theorem because we 
reviewed a lot, Lot of different

840
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:10,400
systems in a lot of chains and 
and their approaches. 

841
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,800
I mean we're super close to in 
general, a lot of our 

842
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,500
communities shared with your 
community, we sort of feel very 

843
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,100
tightly knit and collaborate a 
lot. 

844
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,100
But we sort of saw a really 
pragmatic feel and and really 

845
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,900
kind of successful programmatic 
structure to the theorem 

846
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:30,400
governing structure where you 
kind of RFC inspired. 

847
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,700
So you have like the normal VIPs
and so on and you have kind of 

848
00:44:33,707 --> 00:44:36,200
like this you know strong idea 
of rough consensus and running 

849
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,900
code And you have a good 
principal set in with the 

850
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:40,800
community that you are going to 
improve things. 

851
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,400
And you are going to improve 
implementations pretty 

852
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,900
frequently in quickly. 
And you are going to come up 

853
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:46,800
with a bunch of standards and so
on. 

854
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,500
And so we kind of borrowed a lot
from that. 

855
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,200
And so we saw this as a really 
good place to mirror a lot of 

856
00:44:53,207 --> 00:44:57,500
like the really good good 
lessons and so we borrowed the a

857
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,600
grant proposal structure which 
again, comes from Bitcoin and 

858
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,500
they turn as well and and 
standard RFC style inspired 

859
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:05,900
thing. 
So there are five coin 

860
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:07,900
Improvement. 
Puzzles and their say, anybody 

861
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:11,200
can submit a claim proposal, and
then there's settlement 

862
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,800
limitations and implementers 
that review, those proposals and

863
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,700
kind of are in charge of 
deciding whether to implement 

864
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:22,000
them into their implementations.
But that isn't doesn't 

865
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,500
necessarily mean, I'm decision 
of like, they decided that an 

866
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:26,600
important change needs to land 
this more. 

867
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:29,400
That's more of a leaving it up 
to the community thing because 

868
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:31,900
you have the standard structure 
that happens. 

869
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:35,700
No, blockchains where developers
might say x but it might as own 

870
00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:37,600
agree, then. 
It doesn't matter if people are 

871
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,100
going to are going to run 
something else. 

872
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,400
And so you have that natural 
governance, structure, that 

873
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,200
emerges what you have like these
two groups of parties groups of 

874
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,800
developers and groups of miners 
that have to sort of, its kind 

875
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,200
of like a bicameral system. 
Where like, both parties have to

876
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,400
both groups have to agree with a
change before it lands. 

877
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:58,900
So if hips tend to be discussed 
a lot by Miners and developers, 

878
00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:02,400
and so on often this starts in 
slack, there's like a falcon 

879
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,500
Community slack and people end 
up discussing various different 

880
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:09,100
Avenues of Of a problem, and 
there's all kinds of discussion 

881
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:11,700
threads that happen there. 
And from there, it translates 

882
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:15,000
into a GitHub dip. 
And once it's in a hip people 

883
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,700
will then go and discuss it 
there. 

884
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:19,000
And then from there, we'll get 
discussed in. 

885
00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:23,100
We have kind of a weekly 
developer conversation that kind

886
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:26,300
of goes through those steps and 
talks about, which ones are 

887
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,100
slated for implementation or not
and what not. 

888
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,200
And then, from there, it gets 
scheduled into releases and then

889
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,300
from there, miners, kind of, you
know, voice by that. 

890
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,100
If anybody even a large group of
- and so on, don't want to 

891
00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:41,700
change. 
Will have already been voicing 

892
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,500
it likely isn't gonna get 
implemented because for medicine

893
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:46,300
not gonna start implementing 
something. 

894
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:49,500
If I can get accepted, as you 
have like this, very kind of 

895
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:51,000
like rough consensus and running
code. 

896
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,800
Feel to the whole thing. 
It is not very formalized 

897
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:56,600
intentionally and we thought 
that that was like a very good 

898
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,000
decision from aetherium relative
to a lot of other groups because

899
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:04,300
it made it very easy for 
emergent things happen. 

900
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:08,200
Quickly that a kind of like 
non-controversial oil and and it

901
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,100
gave the community a lot of 
voice for things that are 

902
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:13,400
important and should be taken 
slower. 

903
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:16,700
And so that's kind of an 
important kind of mapping that 

904
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:18,200
we thought was useful and 
valuable. 

905
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:22,400
Now in the long term, we do you 
think that on chain governance 

906
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,400
systems are really the only one 
really interesting and fought 

907
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,600
one may end up with some 
launching governance structures 

908
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,700
in the future. 
The community in general is 

909
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:35,100
pretty interested in these kinds
of things, but we haven't, we 

910
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:38,400
didn't want to kind of help. 
That all of that risk as well 

911
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,800
into an already kind of like 
highly complex system. 

912
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:45,100
And so, we'll once some of these
hunting governance systems and 

913
00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:49,900
more fleshed out and tested and 
work out then the community will

914
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,600
probably, you know, if it's 
valuable to it up one, it will. 

915
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:58,400
There's also a foundation, this 
is the foundation, which is 

916
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:04,000
taking on a lot of programs in 
the community and will help 

917
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,100
Steward the long term. 
There's a lot of things that you

918
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:12,900
need a kind of like entity in 
the kind of normal human world 

919
00:48:12,900 --> 00:48:17,000
to to do and to help Steward in 
a bunching environment and 

920
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,400
that's when the foundation is 
going to do long-term. 

921
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,000
And so Brooke, allows is 
transitioning a bunch of 

922
00:48:21,008 --> 00:48:24,900
programs over to the foundation 
to run there. 

923
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,500
And it definition is planning a 
bunch of other things and that 

924
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:31,300
are really interesting and 
really cool and really exciting 

925
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:36,200
and they as an entity have been 
given some talks lately and we 

926
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,800
But we have a much larger voice 
in the coming weeks, by the way,

927
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,800
highly recommend you. 
You meet those folks, really 

928
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,400
brilliant. 
People involved with the 

929
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,500
foundation and number number of 
avenues. 

930
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:52,400
Both, they have a really Stellar
amazing Advisory board that has 

931
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:57,000
a ton of amazing people in 
crypto and in Internet civil 

932
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,900
liberties space. 
Like a number of people from the

933
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:03,300
FF and also a highly recommend 
amount of Algeria is like one of

934
00:49:03,308 --> 00:49:06,800
the main people that and it kind
of took on building the The 

935
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,000
patent Foundation highly 
recommend checking with her. 

936
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,700
And then there's a number of 
operators that are kind of like 

937
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:16,000
running to the foundation. 
They'll kind of help build out a

938
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,400
number of important programs and
help steer some of that kind of 

939
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:21,800
development groups and 
committees and whatnot. 

940
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,700
But you know, kind of a lot of 
the principles go back to you 

941
00:49:24,707 --> 00:49:27,400
kind of rough consensus and 
running code and kind of like 

942
00:49:27,408 --> 00:49:29,400
the will of what he liked the 
will of the community. 

943
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,800
So you can probably expect a lot
of the standard tooling that 

944
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,400
emerges with systems like this 
like pulling tools and and one 

945
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,700
not like being able to pull - by
mining power, or by certainly 

946
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:43,000
took, the Holdings are useful 
developers. 

947
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,200
And like one of the things we 
want to do is be able to pull 

948
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,100
application developer. 
So if you have a bunch of 

949
00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:49,600
application developers and 
hearing what they have to say is

950
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,300
really, really key. 
So we've kind of sketched out 

951
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:54,200
some polling tools that have 
like these different 

952
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,200
constituencies and so you can 
kind of get a sense of what 

953
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,300
people think about certain kinds
of community decisions and 

954
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:01,700
whatnot. 
But, you know, it's kind of 

955
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:05,200
early days, a lot of this still 
happening in slack and GitHub 

956
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,500
and kind of like that. more 
channels over time as the 

957
00:50:08,500 --> 00:50:12,400
network gets bigger and a lot 
more happens with it will kind 

958
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,200
of bring in a lot of the tooling
and systems that that other 

959
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:20,300
other groups have So he were 
talking about the application 

960
00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:23,100
developers and I think this is 
one of the things that I would 

961
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:26,200
really still like to talk about.
So there's actually a number of 

962
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,700
projects building on top of a 
coin. 

963
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,600
Can you talk about those for a 
bit? 

964
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:35,300
Yeah, totally. 
And so there's a, a lot of 

965
00:50:35,308 --> 00:50:37,000
different groups and they're 
coming from. 

966
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:41,600
Some groups are kind of came to 
popcorn from ipfs and number of 

967
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,200
them are kind of newly newly 
jumping into buckle and I'll 

968
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,000
maybe mention. 
So they may be say there's a 

969
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,800
kind of like set of larger 
developers that have kind of 

970
00:50:51,808 --> 00:50:54,700
existing applications that are 
now starting to use file coin 

971
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,200
and then there's a whole wave of
new developers that are building

972
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,600
on auckland's like they're 
totally new. 

973
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,100
I think that's also really 
exciting time. 

974
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:05,200
They don't, I'll talk a little 
bit about both. 

975
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,800
So, in one another Spectrum 
there's kind of think of this 

976
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,700
one use case, which I think is 
super compelling. 

977
00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:17,800
And really important is one of 
our, my favorite application 

978
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:21,600
applications of PowerPoint. 
This is a function called 

979
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,000
Starling and Starling is a 
system and framework for 

980
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,200
preserving really important and 
valuable cultural heritage data.

981
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,900
So that means there are some 
extremely important data sets 

982
00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:38,600
out there for that have 
extremely important. 

983
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,400
Cultural value, two groups of 
people where you really want to 

984
00:51:42,408 --> 00:51:46,700
make sure that data stays around
and you want to make that 

985
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:49,800
verifiable anyone, you want to 
be able to verify. 

986
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,900
That that data is being kept 
around. 

987
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,100
You want to verify, how many, 
there are a lot of copies around

988
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:55,400
the world. 
That that is not going to get 

989
00:51:55,408 --> 00:51:57,900
lost. 
And you also want to verify that

990
00:51:57,900 --> 00:51:59,900
data has not been tampered with,
or time. 

991
00:52:00,100 --> 00:52:01,500
It's extremely critical of about
data. 

992
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:05,400
I mean happen over time and some
of the kind of did some of this 

993
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,400
kind of data is kind of 
important archives of documents 

994
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:15,200
and media, and testimonials of 
important conflicts in history. 

995
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,800
And so, there's a the starting 
group has been working with a 

996
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,900
number of other groups, 
including the Shoah foundation, 

997
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:25,100
and a number of other, you know,
Stanford University and a number

998
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:31,400
of other groups to build out a 
an application that uses falc0n.

999
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,700
To back up this incredibly 
culturally important cultural 

1000
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:38,900
testimonial data that's super 
important valuable and one of 

1001
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:43,000
the reasons that they really 
thought going and found it 

1002
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:45,300
really interesting. 
And really important for that 

1003
00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:48,500
use case, was that verifiability
being able to verify that the 

1004
00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:52,700
data is being kept around and 
who's keeping it around and 

1005
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:55,900
being able to verify that it 
hasn't been tampered with. 

1006
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,800
It's such a critical component 
in all this that that that that 

1007
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,500
became kind of like an important
kind of you sir. 

1008
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:03,600
He's casing. 
So that's been also extremely 

1009
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,700
humbling for for me and for a 
number of number of us working 

1010
00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:10,600
on fog, going to see such an 
important use case right away 

1011
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:14,200
for kind of having a significant
impact on the world. 

1012
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:15,800
So we'll see kind of where that 
has four. 

1013
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,000
That's a that's a Super Value 
application. 

1014
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,100
And use case other users are 
there's a number of app 

1015
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:23,900
developers that are moving 
around. 

1016
00:53:23,900 --> 00:53:28,000
Their front ends that are right 
now hosted on already kind of 

1017
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,400
address and IP fast, but backed 
up by either themselves or Or or

1018
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,700
or other or their structures and
are now starting to move it over

1019
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:38,200
to Pat. 
Quinn there's one range of 

1020
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,700
applications around video. 
That's super exciting where this

1021
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:45,500
is kind of coupling with. 
So it's a few experiments here 

1022
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:47,000
that I think are really really 
cool. 

1023
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:49,600
But I'll mention one in 
particular which is a 

1024
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,900
combination of Falcon and live 
pier where you can now and I 

1025
00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:58,100
like drag and drop any video to 
this web page and it will get 

1026
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:01,400
moved over to the life. 
Peer Network get trance coated. 

1027
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,000
Into all the right important 
formats for the web and then all

1028
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,600
of that will get put into file 
colon and then stored and 

1029
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,600
distributed through five coin. 
So you have kind of like an 

1030
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,700
end-to-end video distribution 
thing working with faculty and 

1031
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:18,600
life here today and I guess like
a super super cool. 

1032
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,900
Use case there's people working 
on live video. 

1033
00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:26,300
So on one part is doing video 
distribution using a 

1034
00:54:26,308 --> 00:54:31,000
professional P of live video 
think of streaming. 

1035
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,100
Trimming use case and then take 
the as the video is getting 

1036
00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:37,100
generated. 
Once once the kind of live 

1037
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:40,700
stream is over storing, the 
whole thing and unpacking for 

1038
00:54:40,707 --> 00:54:42,500
the long terms. 
So then you're able to kind of 

1039
00:54:42,508 --> 00:54:46,600
view the view, the log of the 
view that video stream later on,

1040
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,400
it's going to some of the 
video-oriented use case that I 

1041
00:54:49,408 --> 00:54:53,400
think are pretty cool. 
Then there's a bunch of defy 

1042
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:59,000
oriented things going on, where,
you know, kind of a lot of a lot

1043
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,900
of the applications that people 
are building right now and tools

1044
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,000
are For the whole mining 
community. 

1045
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,500
So there's not only do you have 
applications that are using 

1046
00:55:05,500 --> 00:55:08,900
Falcon for something else. 
But popcorn itself requires some

1047
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,200
tools and applications built for
yourself functioning, kind of 

1048
00:55:11,207 --> 00:55:14,200
like with if you're on, there's 
a number of applications there. 

1049
00:55:14,900 --> 00:55:20,200
So some of these include ways 
and structures for creating 

1050
00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:22,600
better organizational, 
structures and financial 

1051
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,400
structures for Mining. 
And so, one example is very 

1052
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,500
standard defying loan oriented 
stuff where you have a bridge 

1053
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:32,000
from 2008. 
Miriam. 

1054
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,600
And then, you can do a bunch of,
like loan oriented stuff and 

1055
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,300
then back, not to pop one soap -
can borrow Lachlan in order to 

1056
00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:43,900
use it for collaterals but then 
also structures where you can 

1057
00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:49,200
have contracts for financing the
development of mining 

1058
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:50,500
operations, right? 
So, it turns out of mining 

1059
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:53,700
operations in the larger scales 
are pretty involved in Nevers, 

1060
00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:56,200
you know, if you want to 
maintain a bunch of really high 

1061
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,300
quality storage in a facility 
and whatnot, then you're able to

1062
00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:02,600
kind of start creating some of 
Organizational structures and 

1063
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,300
race funding either by selling 
some of your cash flows or 

1064
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:08,700
things like that and this is 
happening in defy in a theorem, 

1065
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:10,600
right? 
So there's examples of this and 

1066
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,800
this is groups are exploring 
different Avenues of for doing 

1067
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,400
this and kind of in this in this
part another area that I don't 

1068
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,500
think this out yet. 
But is a pretty interesting 

1069
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:26,400
thing is starting to think about
cloud storage itself and and 

1070
00:56:26,500 --> 00:56:29,700
being able to sell capacity in 
the future as think of being 

1071
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:30,900
able to. 
So any kind of important 

1072
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:34,000
commodity in the The world. 
How's it going to put a National

1073
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,800
Industry around it? 
So think of like being able to 

1074
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,800
have oil and then have a bunch 
of different kinds of financial 

1075
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,700
instruments associated with oil 
around it. 

1076
00:56:43,100 --> 00:56:47,200
So because we're commoditizing 
because parking is commoditizing

1077
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,000
this digital storage on the 
cloud. 

1078
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:54,200
People are building kind of 
structures where you could 

1079
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,600
potentially start doing the same
kind of financial instruments 

1080
00:56:58,100 --> 00:57:02,500
for cloud storage on blockchain.
So that I think we'll take some 

1081
00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:06,100
time to get going and kick off 
because it requires a bunch of 

1082
00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:08,800
exploration around what 
structures are needed and 

1083
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,100
whatnot, but imagine having to 
kind of break ability that you 

1084
00:57:12,100 --> 00:57:15,100
get out of other Commodities, 
but you get that in kind of the 

1085
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:18,100
digital storage space. 
So that would be this whole kind

1086
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:20,300
of like, interesting world 
because, if that's what's 

1087
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:24,000
happening with file coin, then 
that'll push that kind of 

1088
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,600
activity about storage media to 
potentially happen as well. 

1089
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,900
And so that's a whole pack was 
starting to affect the The 

1090
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:35,200
storage media Market as you were
describing earlier in some kind 

1091
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,400
of important ways, building a 
bunch of different kinds of 

1092
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:41,400
systems around Mach 1. 
There's a set of use cases there

1093
00:57:41,900 --> 00:57:46,300
and then there's a whole 
category of new applications 

1094
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,400
that there's a number of 
hackathons already where people 

1095
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,300
are building a bunch of really 
cool things from games to Social

1096
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,700
Network. 
They're probably like 15 or 20 

1097
00:57:56,700 --> 00:58:00,100
different, social networks that 
I saw this hackathon built using

1098
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:04,200
5 coin like different, you know?
Things like Twitter things like 

1099
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,200
more Facebook news feed & 
Friends, style things, and 

1100
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,700
messaging things. 
And so on that again, kind of 

1101
00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:14,900
experimented with. 
I think those things will take 

1102
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:18,100
more time to really develop and 
flesh out and something that 

1103
00:58:18,500 --> 00:58:21,900
that a lot of people can use. 
But already I know a lot of 

1104
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:24,800
people are experimenting with 
and building these things kind 

1105
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,400
of from scratch on talking and 
that's, that's super cool. 

1106
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:31,200
And then there's a pi even in 
that class that where there are 

1107
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,700
a number Of people doing this 
kind of live streaming work and 

1108
00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:36,300
video-oriented work. 
This is another really cool one 

1109
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:40,400
which is this amazing use case 
around machine learning 

1110
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:45,400
computation around data. 
So people store data in the 

1111
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,400
clear and fine and then they get
they have this other tooling 

1112
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,500
that they can then shit 
competent. 

1113
00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:54,600
So if this Falcon minor is like 
equipped with this additional 

1114
00:58:54,900 --> 00:58:59,200
protocol, then you can shit 
computation to that minor and 

1115
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:00,800
they'll run it over the data 
that they have. 

1116
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,400
And Pretty, give you the results
and all of that is hooked up in 

1117
00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:07,100
the standard python tooling so 
you can have like you're normal 

1118
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:11,000
normal data science toolkit and 
then you just import a few 

1119
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,000
things. 
In your normal flow, you like 

1120
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,400
your notebook structure and now 
you can both store data to file 

1121
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,800
colon but also kind of like ship
computation to the nodes that 

1122
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:20,300
are storing it. 
And so that's kind of like a 

1123
00:59:20,308 --> 00:59:23,200
specific minors that are doing 
this because not all miners are 

1124
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,700
going to be able to you know 
automatically do this is kind of

1125
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:28,300
an additional protocol. 
They have to run but that's kind

1126
00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:30,600
of like a like a really cool 
example of what's going to 

1127
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,200
happen once. 
You start adding a lot of 

1128
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,300
important data that you can 
compute on and it has a kind of 

1129
00:59:36,300 --> 00:59:39,900
gravity element to it which 
where it's way easier to ship 

1130
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:42,100
the computation to the data, 
then the other way around like 

1131
00:59:42,100 --> 00:59:44,700
you want to move the competition
at data, do it there and then 

1132
00:59:44,700 --> 00:59:46,300
kind of take the results 
elsewhere. 

1133
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,300
So we think that this kind of 
compute Computing over data 

1134
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:51,600
stored on Falcone, is going to 
be a big thing in the long term.

1135
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,000
And so we're starting to see the
beginning versions of this and 

1136
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,000
beginning use cases of people 
experimenting and stuff. 

1137
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,900
I think those protocols brought 
take a while to 2%. 

1138
01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:04,600
Thing, super scalable but 
already like you can store large

1139
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,600
amounts of data and compute with
it really easily really cheaply.

1140
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,000
It does this have something cool
applications out there. 

1141
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,600
There's also just the idea of 
using this origin itself, right?

1142
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,500
So separate from application 
building, various different 

1143
01:00:17,500 --> 01:00:23,200
groups are looking at using open
data, the raw data storage and 

1144
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,400
so on. 
And that's pretty. 

1145
01:00:24,500 --> 01:00:27,400
If I can't talk about any of the
groups that I know about right 

1146
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,500
now that are considering in the 
larger scale spot. 

1147
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,000
And I think one of the important
things here Is any kind of major

1148
01:00:33,100 --> 01:00:35,300
groups are going to be 
experimenting and it was super 

1149
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:39,300
knew I could just launched the 
cycles for any kind of large 

1150
01:00:39,300 --> 01:00:40,300
petabyte. 
Scale. 

1151
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:44,600
Usage are in the many think of 
like Enterprise scale time 

1152
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,900
scales where they're going to be
experimenting with with stuff 

1153
01:00:46,900 --> 01:00:49,600
for quite a while and then 
they're going to come make a any

1154
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,600
kind of public service or 
whatever. 

1155
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,900
And so we those are going to be 
exciting and whatnot but this is

1156
01:00:55,900 --> 01:00:57,900
probably more a story for for 
the future. 

1157
01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:59,900
But there's already some 
interesting Pilots that are 

1158
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:06,700
forming and Some pretty cool 
public data uses that that it's 

1159
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:07,900
kind of like more where my heart
is. 

1160
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:09,600
Where a lot of the reason why I 
started. 

1161
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,400
I think that's in the first 
place where around making it way

1162
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,400
cheaper and easier to back up. 
Vast amounts of important 

1163
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,200
scientific data that's open 
access that anybody can use and 

1164
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,600
can compete with, you know, like
versioning data sets and all 

1165
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,500
that kind of stuff and all of 
that, isn't it? 

1166
01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:26,200
New finally then finally, I have
a can point to and that work for

1167
01:01:26,207 --> 01:01:28,100
has vast amount of capacity to 
back up. 

1168
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:31,800
You know, the world's most 
important scientific data And 

1169
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,900
kind of provided super cheaply 
to for people to use and 

1170
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:38,000
download and compete with. 
And that's really there now. 

1171
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:41,000
So now I think like the next 
important Milestone on that 

1172
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,300
journey is is now starting to 
work with a number of groups to 

1173
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,700
start adding a ton of those 
important data sets or into dark

1174
01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:51,600
one. 
Well, I'll mention one more, 

1175
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,500
which I think is pretty cool. 
It's starting to see people 

1176
01:01:54,500 --> 01:01:58,900
doing pay per view videos and so
you can do like video 

1177
01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:01,300
distribution or the video and do
video distribution. 

1178
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,600
Entirely through Falco and you 
can do like a man channel 

1179
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,100
pay-per-view stuff and so that's
also pretty cool of any it's not

1180
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:12,100
super safe in that if you get 
the decryption key you can 

1181
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:14,000
probably share it out and and 
whatnot. 

1182
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,100
But a lot of the times is this 
is more about friction then then

1183
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:19,600
getting it super secure. 
So that's already kind of a kind

1184
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,900
of cool. 
Cool. 

1185
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,100
Yeah, I mean it's great to see 
just how much it is going on and

1186
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:26,600
how this ecosystem is 
blossoming. 

1187
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,300
So there's 11 of the topic we 
wanted to touch on because, you 

1188
01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:33,200
know, before the podcast we had,
we had briefly talked about it 

1189
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,300
with you and you mentioned 
already this kind of two angles 

1190
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:37,400
do. 
This is the blockchain 

1191
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,500
scalability topic, right? 
And, you know, the one hand, it 

1192
01:02:40,508 --> 01:02:42,400
would be interesting to hear 
kind of, like, your thoughts on,

1193
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,400
how Falcone's going to scale as 
a blockchain. 

1194
01:02:45,700 --> 01:02:49,300
But then also, you know, what 
are your thoughts on kind of 

1195
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,700
blockchain scalability topic? 
General. 

1196
01:02:51,700 --> 01:02:54,500
And specifically, you know what 
are your thoughts on like Eve to

1197
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,300
and you know I think as we are 
as we are recording this 

1198
01:02:57,300 --> 01:02:58,900
actually I think like today or 
something. 

1199
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:02,400
I thought the threshold the 
positive threshold for each to 

1200
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,800
whose has been crossed. 
So you know this is like finally

1201
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,900
now imminent that you know the 
first steps towards the you know

1202
01:03:08,900 --> 01:03:13,500
the fully through Yeah, so we go
back to this. 

1203
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:17,000
I just realized that I wanted to
add one important for the 

1204
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,800
community on an application. 
It's going to add that now. 

1205
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,700
And then and then go back to 
this one really important part 

1206
01:03:22,700 --> 01:03:26,000
of the ecosystem. 
That's that's growing right now.

1207
01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:28,700
Very strongly is this kind of 
whole life cycle of development 

1208
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:33,600
of the hackathons and then 
people taking those facts and 

1209
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,100
then going into accelerators and
then getting of those kind of 

1210
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,200
people are kind of continue on 
to build build businesses, end 

1211
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,700
up getting in. 
So, one of the really important 

1212
01:03:43,700 --> 01:03:46,700
signals in any kind of platform,
like, this is how many 

1213
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:50,000
developers really care about 
this or, or trying trying it out

1214
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,400
and experimenting with it. 
And then how many of those 

1215
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,900
actually build not just hacks, 
but then go on to build 

1216
01:03:56,100 --> 01:03:58,100
applications and then get 
investment. 

1217
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:00,900
And then coupled with that is 
like how many investors in the 

1218
01:04:00,900 --> 01:04:02,600
in the in the space are kind of 
investing. 

1219
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,000
So that's something. 
I think it's super cool about 

1220
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,800
puffiness is super early right 
now and already there's been a 

1221
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,300
bunch of hackathons. 
A bunch of Groups out of that 

1222
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,700
going into accelerators. 
And then from accelerators, 

1223
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,600
there's funds forming entirely 
to build and invest in the 

1224
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,700
popcorn ecosystem. 
And so, there are now not just 

1225
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,400
investors in general. 
But there are funds emerging 

1226
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:26,600
that are just investing in 
popping applications. 

1227
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:31,000
And so it's a really exciting 
and positive time for people to 

1228
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:32,800
get involved with people that 
are kind of like maybe in 

1229
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,500
between things or have an 
application that already use 

1230
01:04:35,500 --> 01:04:39,600
that profession was maybe maybe 
a good trajectory for five coin.

1231
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,500
It's a super vibrant. 
Ecosystem at the moment and it's

1232
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:45,700
kind of blossoming and growing a
lot and there's a lot of 

1233
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,300
interest from other developers 
and from the whole kind of 

1234
01:04:49,700 --> 01:04:52,500
development support cycle of 
Grants and Investments. 

1235
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:55,000
And so on happening at the 
moment, so there's probably a 

1236
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,000
bunch of projects that are 
getting built today and then the

1237
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,400
next few months that are going 
to be hitting, say three to nine

1238
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,900
months from now. 
So because usually kind of a lot

1239
01:05:04,900 --> 01:05:07,400
of these applications take out, 
take a while to going to get 

1240
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,300
built out, go out there, and 
then get users and so on. 

1241
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:13,400
So a Of the cool things that are
happening at the moment will 

1242
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:18,600
probably end up kind of being a 
whole wave of apps say six to 

1243
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,600
nine months from now. 
And yeah, so highly encourage 

1244
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,200
people to kind of get involved 
and one really great area for 

1245
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,600
where we hadn't really seen this
happening elsewhere. 

1246
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:32,500
But our slack turned out to be a
Super Active environment where I

1247
01:05:32,508 --> 01:05:36,300
think there's many, many 
thousands of different people 

1248
01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:38,200
are there in different groups 
and there's all kinds of 

1249
01:05:38,900 --> 01:05:43,400
activities around hackathons. 
And again, accelerators and what

1250
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,200
not all happening in the same 
space. 

1251
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,000
And so it's a pretty active 
environment, kind of similar to 

1252
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,800
the world of different Discord 
servers and any theorem 

1253
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:52,900
community. 
So highly recommend people come 

1254
01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:54,700
in and hang out and check it 
out. 

1255
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:58,600
So the scalability question is 
super critical and important for

1256
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,500
the entire space. 
This is something that I see as 

1257
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:06,600
the biggest hurdle to Broad 
scale adoption in in 13. 

1258
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:10,400
So I think I kind of didn't 
think about it as the consensus 

1259
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,100
bottleneck. 
So today there's just a ton of 

1260
01:06:13,100 --> 01:06:15,700
transactions. 
I want to go through a really 

1261
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,500
tiny amount of bandwidth and 
most applications that consider 

1262
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:23,300
using blockchains, just run into
this bottleneck and and have to 

1263
01:06:23,300 --> 01:06:27,300
start doing. 
All kinds of crazy off chain 

1264
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:32,100
protocols or side chains or all 
kinds of really contortions of 

1265
01:06:32,100 --> 01:06:35,500
their application to make it 
work in the blockchain model. 

1266
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,400
And so, of course, this is been 
a topic for discussion for a 

1267
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,200
long time. 
A lot of people are on it, 

1268
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,800
there's a lot of people trying 
to build much more scalable 

1269
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,500
blockchain systems and, you 
know, put at the head of the 

1270
01:06:46,500 --> 01:06:48,300
pack there. 
If you're a, have any theorem to

1271
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:53,400
the entire scalability, effort 
in theorem to is, you know, the 

1272
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,300
furthest along from From any 
that I've that I've seen, and I 

1273
01:06:57,300 --> 01:07:00,300
think the one, the state 
tackling larger questions, more 

1274
01:07:00,300 --> 01:07:02,400
seriously. 
So I think it's a really kind of

1275
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,700
a really critical project to to 
watch and help out and going to 

1276
01:07:06,700 --> 01:07:10,000
help succeed. 
And so yeah, it's awesome that, 

1277
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,300
you know, we kind of just cross 
the threshold and and you know 

1278
01:07:13,300 --> 01:07:17,900
the second anus is happening. 
And now we're going to get to to

1279
01:07:17,900 --> 01:07:20,400
go towards the all the sharding 
and and so on. 

1280
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:24,100
I think that in the long term 
though you kind of like zoom out

1281
01:07:24,100 --> 01:07:25,800
for a moment. 
Do you think about Computing 

1282
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,600
infrastructure in general? 
You think about the kind of how 

1283
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,600
much data gets generated again 
is in the order of zettabytes, 

1284
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,600
how much of that is useful to 
store, probably right now in the

1285
01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:37,600
tens to hundreds of exabytes 
that's again growing 

1286
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,800
exponentially of that. 
You know, some fraction of it is

1287
01:07:42,100 --> 01:07:44,300
application data, that requires 
really fast. 

1288
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:48,900
Come basically consistency times
where people are used to 

1289
01:07:49,100 --> 01:07:53,800
chatting on a Nap typing. 
Something pressing enter getting

1290
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:58,000
to the other person and getting 
persisted into long-term storage

1291
01:07:58,100 --> 01:08:01,300
and never losing that. 
And they're used to kind of 

1292
01:08:01,300 --> 01:08:04,200
operations on social network 
websites that they click a bunch

1293
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,300
of buttons and all of that gets 
persisted, some we're building 

1294
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:10,900
an application platform that can
support. 

1295
01:08:10,900 --> 01:08:16,399
That kind of a scale of use is 
not only non-trivial, but will 

1296
01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:19,700
require solving a bunch of 
challenges for for web 3. 

1297
01:08:19,700 --> 01:08:23,700
So, In some cases, you can 
segment some of the operations 

1298
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:26,399
to be client side only and if 
you can do that, that's that's 

1299
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,300
great. 
But there's a lot of operation 

1300
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:30,600
that has to be whole network 
oriented. 

1301
01:08:31,100 --> 01:08:33,500
And when you hit any kind of 
real usage, you're going to run 

1302
01:08:33,500 --> 01:08:37,500
against this limit, this kind of
consensus oriented limit and 

1303
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:38,500
sure. 
You can try to do a bunch of 

1304
01:08:38,508 --> 01:08:41,500
stuff off chain but you end up 
having a now to problems, 

1305
01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:44,899
because a whole part of your 
application has to live on a 

1306
01:08:44,907 --> 01:08:47,700
blockchain and then there's 
another part of the application 

1307
01:08:47,700 --> 01:08:50,600
that's on the client side and 
kind of a user interface. 

1308
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,399
And then another part of the 
application that has to live 

1309
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:54,700
somewhere in between some other 
off chain protocol, that's 

1310
01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:57,300
custom. 
And that I think is like not the

1311
01:08:57,308 --> 01:09:01,300
way to go at all. 
I think that for web three to 

1312
01:09:01,308 --> 01:09:07,300
succeed in a long term, in 
general, we have to hit a system

1313
01:09:07,300 --> 01:09:11,200
that can hit millions of 
transactions per second and can 

1314
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,100
get pretty good consistency. 
And by that, I mean, you know, 

1315
01:09:15,300 --> 01:09:19,000
sub s style commits where 
somebody can like type of thing,

1316
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:20,700
press enter and close the 
application. 

1317
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:25,800
Like nice and kind of human 
scale like within seconds and 

1318
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:30,700
know that all of that was stored
safely somewhere and someone's 

1319
01:09:30,700 --> 01:09:32,800
going to be the other users 
going to be able to get that and

1320
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:34,899
see that. 
And the applications going to 

1321
01:09:34,899 --> 01:09:36,600
remember, their settings and 
whatnot. 

1322
01:09:36,899 --> 01:09:41,300
And doing that for billions of 
users in a crypto native sort of

1323
01:09:41,300 --> 01:09:45,200
way is going to require that we 
have is like consistency 

1324
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:50,300
structure built in, right? 
So for applications where it's 

1325
01:09:50,300 --> 01:09:52,600
really just between us. 
Draw and a group of people, 

1326
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:55,500
that's where things like there's
these things called textile 

1327
01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:59,100
threads, which are part of the 
textile stock in the apis and 

1328
01:09:59,100 --> 01:10:03,000
Falcon ecosystems where you can 
sort of model a lot of your 

1329
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,200
updates into your application 
and you into kind of like a 

1330
01:10:07,208 --> 01:10:10,100
threat of operations. 
So think of us having a chat 

1331
01:10:10,100 --> 01:10:13,100
stream or us sharing some 
documents with each other having

1332
01:10:13,100 --> 01:10:16,700
kind of like Google Docs, I'll 
experience and modeling all of 

1333
01:10:16,700 --> 01:10:19,700
those changes in that kind of 
thread and shipping, always 

1334
01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:23,100
something to each other and to I
have some too far gone to sort 

1335
01:10:23,100 --> 01:10:25,700
and backup in the long term and 
also being able to kind of pull 

1336
01:10:25,700 --> 01:10:27,200
that out of there and kind of 
using. 

1337
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,500
So there's a bunch of 
applications for that will work 

1338
01:10:29,900 --> 01:10:33,700
but that kind of consistency is 
does not require super hard 

1339
01:10:33,700 --> 01:10:36,600
rigorous kind of network 
intermediation, right? 

1340
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,800
So we can do it like we will dr.
Style thing if we if we have a 

1341
01:10:40,808 --> 01:10:43,700
protocol that kind of in see the
updates and I can see my 

1342
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:45,900
updates, you can see your 
updates, we can both sign them 

1343
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,200
and all we need is a lot of 
operations to reconstruct the 

1344
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,700
whole thing, that's easy and 
that's kind of you don't have to

1345
01:10:50,708 --> 01:10:53,800
build a Some of chain thing for 
that you can use Excel threads 

1346
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:57,200
and be done. 
So that you can now model in 

1347
01:10:57,500 --> 01:11:01,000
think of a kind of like a normal
web developer experience without

1348
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:05,300
kind of thinking of any complex 
where three crypto stuff and 

1349
01:11:05,300 --> 01:11:08,600
have some very simple Primitives
and very simple data model, it 

1350
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:10,200
just works for developers and 
they don't have to think about 

1351
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:13,100
it a lot and like that's kind of
working now. 

1352
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,700
But as soon as you have 
something where you need some 

1353
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:20,800
kind of important business, 
logic that users can't change. 

1354
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:22,700
And it requires some kind of 
like Network operation. 

1355
01:11:22,700 --> 01:11:24,500
That's where, where you have to 
know someone? 

1356
01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:27,900
They put this into a blockchain 
or into a network of other off 

1357
01:11:27,900 --> 01:11:31,200
blockchain, but important 
validator type roles. 

1358
01:11:31,700 --> 01:11:33,900
And I think that's that's what I
think in the future is going to 

1359
01:11:33,900 --> 01:11:37,100
be entirely blessings. 
It just has to be scalable 

1360
01:11:37,100 --> 01:11:41,800
systems and and again I really 
think that that kind of there is

1361
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:47,100
so much need for that kind of a 
transactional model that we're 

1362
01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:49,100
going to need to build systems 
that can scale to millions of 

1363
01:11:49,108 --> 01:11:51,500
transactions per second and 
clear very Quickly. 

1364
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:53,600
And a few of the way that we're 
going to get, there is by 

1365
01:11:53,900 --> 01:11:59,800
building consensus systems that 
can Shard over time as they get 

1366
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,700
used in certain regions of the 
world, but where they're really 

1367
01:12:03,700 --> 01:12:05,400
mapped. 
They're not kind of just generic

1368
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,300
shards across right now. 
I think like the theorem two 

1369
01:12:08,300 --> 01:12:11,100
shots are going to be thinking, 
1024, charts, or something like 

1370
01:12:11,100 --> 01:12:12,900
that and maybe 2000 something. 
I do remember what the last 

1371
01:12:12,900 --> 01:12:15,100
number is, but they're all kind 
of the same and they're all 

1372
01:12:15,100 --> 01:12:17,800
going to be global. 
And I really think that if 

1373
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,500
people start modeling these 
charts as being related to 

1374
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:23,500
Regions, you can do a couple 
things. 

1375
01:12:23,500 --> 01:12:27,400
One is you can speed up the the 
consensus sign because it means 

1376
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:30,500
you can you can go way faster in
one region. 

1377
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,400
So doing consensus in one 
continent is way faster than 

1378
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,700
around. 
The whole planet is speed of 

1379
01:12:36,708 --> 01:12:37,800
light. 
If you rather Good Earth is 

1380
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,600
pretty big so like, you gotta 
wait a certain amount of time 

1381
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,000
for propagation of an out of 
information. 

1382
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,700
If you reduce the size and say 
you create a region in a part of

1383
01:12:45,700 --> 01:12:48,200
the world, That looks pretty 
different and you can keep 

1384
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,600
subdividing this, right? 
So if there's a lot of usage in 

1385
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:54,000
one region, you can keep going 
down into a city scale. 

1386
01:12:54,300 --> 01:12:57,200
We can go all the way down into 
kind of a data center scale and 

1387
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,200
Fortune security maps to that, 
right? 

1388
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,800
So definitely in the smaller 
scales you're going to be at 

1389
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:06,100
higher risk but your, your 
stamping, your way up and into 

1390
01:13:06,100 --> 01:13:08,500
kind of the consensus hierarchy.
I think that's one important 

1391
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:12,900
component and this geographical 
split also gives you partition 

1392
01:13:12,900 --> 01:13:15,600
tolerance, right? 
So, you can imagine one country 

1393
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,100
or one class. 
And losing access to rest of the

1394
01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:21,200
internet. 
And so may be found on the 

1395
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,200
alternate, they can't see or 
observe all transactions, 

1396
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,200
outside of there's here, but you
can still get consistent 

1397
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,100
transactions within that 
Continental that country or that

1398
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:32,700
City. 
So I think that watching systems

1399
01:13:32,700 --> 01:13:34,400
have to move into that into that
realm. 

1400
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:37,800
The other component I think is, 
is really key here. 

1401
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:41,400
It's hard shouting in an 
application oriented way. 

1402
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:44,700
So, one of the really key things
about Computing, in history has 

1403
01:13:44,700 --> 01:13:48,800
been being able to recognize 
That a lot of the access matters

1404
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,200
to data and computation use case
oriented or a specific kind of 

1405
01:13:52,700 --> 01:13:55,300
where, a lot of the kind of the 
reason rights for an application

1406
01:13:55,300 --> 01:13:57,200
or important transactions 
happen. 

1407
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,700
If you start modeling your 
system to match the application 

1408
01:13:59,700 --> 01:14:01,800
to use, you get a bunch of 
performance gains. 

1409
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:05,100
So, I sort of expected that will
end up having 

1410
01:14:05,500 --> 01:14:08,300
application-specific shards or 
application domain, and 

1411
01:14:08,300 --> 01:14:10,600
industry-specific charts, that 
have different parameters weeks 

1412
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,900
for those use cases. 
So, certain use cases, don't 

1413
01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:15,800
require super hard consistency, 
right away. 

1414
01:14:16,100 --> 01:14:18,900
They are Are fine with eventual,
consistency and there are other 

1415
01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:21,900
uses where consistency 
supercritical they don't have to

1416
01:14:21,907 --> 01:14:26,300
move as fast as it being able to
tune your selection there and 

1417
01:14:26,300 --> 01:14:29,800
being able to be on a show that 
operates one way versus another.

1418
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,200
It's gonna look really really 
key piece here. 

1419
01:14:34,100 --> 01:14:35,000
I think. 
I like the way that this is 

1420
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,900
gonna end up playing out. 
Is that eventually we're going 

1421
01:14:37,900 --> 01:14:42,600
to split up the consensus 
protocol part like linearized 

1422
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,000
stability from all of the smart 
contract. 

1423
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:49,500
And we're going to build one 
layer. 

1424
01:14:49,500 --> 01:14:52,500
That's just around getting 
linearize ability in this, very 

1425
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:55,600
kind of hierarchical generic 
way, that's super scalable. 

1426
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:59,100
And then we're going to build 
systems that can do the 

1427
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,800
interpretation of what the 
linearized and the computation 

1428
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,100
of web that output is at the 
second layer. 

1429
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:07,300
And so, I think like, that's 
already found it happened with 

1430
01:15:07,300 --> 01:15:11,100
him so that we can chain is one 
important step in that 

1431
01:15:11,100 --> 01:15:12,900
direction. 
You have, you know, one 

1432
01:15:12,900 --> 01:15:17,100
important hierarchy split there,
where one of the the main the 

1433
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:20,900
beacon chain is just around, 
maintaining like the global 

1434
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,900
consensus security and not 
necessarily doing the 

1435
01:15:23,900 --> 01:15:26,700
competition, the shards. 
But I think it has to go, like, 

1436
01:15:27,100 --> 01:15:29,900
I think this is gonna end up 
getting separated outward, many 

1437
01:15:29,900 --> 01:15:32,800
different particles are going to
be honed in one consensus layer,

1438
01:15:33,100 --> 01:15:34,500
which is having figure out with 
a has to be. 

1439
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,300
Nobody really knows the 
parameter space yet. 

1440
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:40,300
That is going to succeed there, 
but I just think right now, 

1441
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:43,400
watching assistants are 
dramatically way too complicated

1442
01:15:43,500 --> 01:15:45,400
and they're not going to stand 
the test of time this way. 

1443
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,200
I think they're going to Split. 
I think they're going to have 

1444
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,400
layers of them ripped up in the 
same way. 

1445
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:56,100
That when you think about the 
TCP IP stack, these are VIP. 

1446
01:15:56,100 --> 01:15:58,200
Our first of all, two different 
protocols that together are 

1447
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,200
helped by a whole protocol soup,
you know, alphabet soup. 

1448
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,900
Type set of other protocols, 
many of whom like have changed a

1449
01:16:04,907 --> 01:16:06,700
lot over over time and in 
history. 

1450
01:16:06,700 --> 01:16:11,400
And a lot of this a lot of flows
that don't even use the CP 

1451
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,600
anymore use Quick and other 
kinds of systems. 

1452
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:17,500
And even when you look at IP 
itself, it has Change a lot and 

1453
01:16:17,500 --> 01:16:20,300
has all kinds of like in between
layer layer things. 

1454
01:16:20,900 --> 01:16:23,900
So, I think taking another path 
of the entire Block Chain system

1455
01:16:23,900 --> 01:16:29,100
with an ietf style view of 
decomposition of protocols, and 

1456
01:16:29,300 --> 01:16:31,700
really getting at the core 
problem and building one 

1457
01:16:31,700 --> 01:16:33,300
protocol that solves one 
problem. 

1458
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,000
Extremely well, and that's it. 
It was going to lead to the 

1459
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,900
things that are going to stand 
many decades and that are going 

1460
01:16:40,900 --> 01:16:42,100
to give us the scalability we 
need. 

1461
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,700
It's like that doesn't like a, 
my thoughts on where the 

1462
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:48,200
excavator can go but uh, yeah, 
everyday like dig into any of 

1463
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,800
those pieces for there. 
Yeah. 

1464
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:52,500
I mean, then thanks so much for 
joining us. 

1465
01:16:52,900 --> 01:16:55,900
Courtney was like, you know, so 
awesome till I catch up and 

1466
01:16:55,900 --> 01:16:59,600
like, have this, you know, just 
a complexity and the richness of

1467
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,200
everything happening around file
coin and put a collapse is 

1468
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,000
amazing. 
And yeah I think you know we 

1469
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,500
just had beginning right now if 
the blockchain being live for a 

1470
01:17:08,508 --> 01:17:12,700
few months and you know, people 
building your applications. 

1471
01:17:12,700 --> 01:17:16,100
So yeah we're super excited to 
see how this is gonna play out 

1472
01:17:16,100 --> 01:17:18,700
and kind of the impact is going 
to have in the coming years. 

1473
01:17:19,100 --> 01:17:20,600
So thanks so much for joining 
us. 

1474
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:22,800
Yeah, thank you so much for 
having me. 

1475
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,300
It's been a really awesome to 
get to chat about all these 

1476
01:17:27,300 --> 01:17:30,600
topics with you really enjoy 
talking about all these 

1477
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,100
different area. 
So it's a really appreciate the 

1478
01:17:32,100 --> 01:17:35,400
chance to do it and yeah really,
really fun conversation. 

1479
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:39,600
Thank you. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1480
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,000
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1481
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,000
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1482
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,800
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1483
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:50,200
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1484
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:53,000
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1485
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:57,000
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1486
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,600
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1487
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,900
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1488
01:18:01,900 --> 01:18:05,200
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1489
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:08,600
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1490
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:11,500
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1491
01:18:11,500 --> 01:18:14,600
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1492
01:18:14,608 --> 01:18:16,900
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