Hi, I'm Sebastian with you and you're listening to epicenter
the podcast will re-interview crypto Founders, Builders and
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podcast, be sure to subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify or
wherever your listen. Today, our guest is wonbin a and
this is part two of our two-part interview with one.
So if you haven't heard part one, I would definitely
recommend you. Go back to last week's episode,
that's episode 367 to get the full conversation part one
focused on ipfs and part two is Saying on Fall coin and here,
Brian, and Federica went deep, with Juan into the intricacies
and complexities of that project.
So, of course, the discuss the high level and long-term vision
of the project. The technical underpinnings of
how fog horn works, the role and influence of minors on the
protocol its proximity to the ethereum project and how its in
spin inspired by the ethereum project and its structure how it
was designed and the complexities of Designing
systems that this scale. Falcone Foundation projects and
use cases being built on file coin and so much more.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
I think Juan is such a thoughtful finger in the space
and getting an update on this project which we had first
talked about five years ago, was definitely do.
What's great is to learn about the ecosystem that is forming
around this technology stack. So on talks about an ecosystem
of investors that are interested in projects that are built on
Fox. And, and I'm really looking
forward to the day where the file coin ipfs.
Stack is a viable alternative to the Asher's and AWS has and
Google's of the world for building production apps and
given how things are evolving. I don't think that that future
is as far off as we think it might be anyway.
If you're building websites today, you're probably using one
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and a couple of weeks ago, our friends over at Al Gore and
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But I'll tell you more later on. For now, here's our conversation
with one minute. Now let's talk about five coin
by coin is the incentive layer, that kind of brings it all
together. What happens, another would say,
I am someone who wants to retrieve some content that I
know, is somewhere out there. So basically, what would happen
whom would I pay who's incentivized by?
What what are the crypto economics going on here?
Yeah, I got it. Yeah.
So basically you're saying, hey like let's walk through kind of
like the the life cycle of data and kind of like follow it and
so on. Yeah.
So maybe they start with, I'll describe three.
So, first, let's think about adding capacity and I work then
adding storage. So, you know, a client hiring,
hiring a minor to add some data. And then the third is a, another
client kind of retrieving something that exists there.
So the first case of a minor that has soared to provide and a
walks up to the network and Pledges certain amount of
sectors and a pledge is a commitment to the network that
you're going to store. A certain amount of you can add
a certain amount of capacity and you're going to produce some
proofs for that capacity. And you also have to kind of
because this is really to consensus.
You have to have something at stake here, the answers, there's
a certain conditions in which there might be certain kinds of
attack to. You could play suit, so that
includes kind of a deposit of Falcon.
And so a minor add storage to the Let's add some actual
capacity. Then gets a random seed from the
network to store some data and kind of to produce a a, a to
kind of seal it. What is right now?
An empty sector sources just, you know, capacity and this is
a, you know, kind of a sector today is 32 gigabytes and then,
you know, there'll be kind of variables I sectors in the
future and what not. So, you know, a minor might walk
in with say a terabyte or something like that.
Your divide that terabyte in to 32 GB segments, and you now,
seal, all of these segments and the ceiling processing involves
doing a proof of replication that you're actually have that
capacity to provide to the network.
And as a minor you kind of have now signed up with a network to
for this. This capacity in addition to my
neck, kind of sets a and ask price which is how much their
storage is going to go for when clients kind of are going to
hire Less storage what, I'll go for right now if this Of a
global a spry. So a minor mostly use cases -
kind of have one price and that's it in the future we
anticipate we want to have a flexible and fluid ask model
where - can have can give you many different kind of prices
for different tiers of storage and all that kind of stuff.
But for now sort of like a very simple one price for Peralta
storage so that we kind of the minor has committed to network
to sort this, and now other parties can can view it.
So, now Along Comes a user client.
And since, okay, great like I want to store this data and so
the data, you know, they can just add it with various
different kinds of tools. So they can first that I profess
and get a hash or they can add it with the following with like
the Lotus client which is kind of like the one of the main
pumping implementations or a bunch of other tools that that
speak these protocols, like textile power gate or slate,
which is a consumer-oriented application.
There's a bunch of other different kinds of things.
And that was the surgeon has been added.
You can now. Hire, you can kind of create a
deal to hire minor to back this back to back up this data.
And that deal is sort of a relationship between a client
and a single client and a single Miner and a single piece of
data. It's kind of like the unit of of
agreement. And as a client you probably
want to do this with multiple monitors because you want to
replicate your data with multiple different parties and,
and so you, now send your data over.
To you find these - in the network by there's a number of
ways, you can either enumerate them from the blockchain, you
can find them in a block Explorer.
There's a bunch of tools, I can show you what Miners and what
ask prices they have and so you select which minor you want and
you could be maybe price sensitive but you might also
take into account other important details about the
minor. So for example they're kind of
like reliability. There's a different kind of
cancer features about the minor that get tracked by the ball
chain and can sort of give you a score.
Right now, there's no emergence for the, you know, everybody's
using yet but you could build these kind of like tried writing
style, number some minor. So you become kind of like a
very simple way of selecting minors but he declined right now
just as a minor and sensor data over to the source provider.
Once the source provider receives it they deal is
completed and the minor which is the deal into the network.
There's a bunch of operations that happen underneath the hood
in order to like actually make that.
Make that work. There's kind of some preparation
of the data that has to happen in order to make it easy to
prove and so on and definitely a different sizes of the data
really matter, right? So, if you're sending a little
bit of theta, say a few MB, few kilobytes or megabytes.
That's going to be the kind of distribution is very different
than if you're sending gigabytes or terabytes.
And so, for something the smaller scales that just, you
know, this is a very simple protocol where right away.
You can just send somebody over and make the deal and whatnot as
a user. You this is completely hidden
from you. You, you know, the client in the
minor are doing. This is how far he's doing this
on under the hood. But the users themselves on have
to be exposed to all of this going on under the.
It's kind of like a like a Bitcoin transaction or any
theorem transaction. There's a lot going on happening
under the hood for a transaction to like move to certain plays
dead validated execute and whatnot.
But all of this kind of hidden from from the actual users.
But by default this is not encrypted, right?
The data. That it's up to the clients to
decide on the encryption structure.
So by default data sort of gets sued, encrypted is unencrypted
in a in a we don't call it encryption because that implies
a that it is hidden from the world.
There's a lot of data that's public and so you need to allow
people to to store data that is in the clear.
So that public data can be, can be used, but most, you know, our
gate and other and other tools and so on.
Just encourage all of that ahead of time.
So you know, if you are storing an application data and so on
the encrypted first and then you you send it to the to the world,
think of it as like the client software.
Gives the minor what they want the world to see.
And so if you want the world to see a public data set, then you
should give in the clear. If you want them to have a trip
to thing, you can do that. We've also thought about moving
to a world where the bit itself. Anyways is stored in model and
analogous to encrypt. She's not exactly encryption but
it's analogous to it and the data itself is dispersed and so
on and it's durable and whatnot but is considered kind of doing
public data sets by by using either convergent encryption or
or encryption where like the public key is like, you know,
side the encryption key is just zeros or something like that but
it doesn't necessarily benefit. I think it becomes very useful
to be very clear about where when there's encryption when
there isn't and so far like that's that's been the the
structure that we've we followed.
Because there is this important utility of being able to have
these public publicly available data sets.
But yeah, the tooling itself, you know defaults to your adding
data, you know, user-oriented tooling just default to
encrypting all of it but beyond that now that you've given the
data to the minor and like they publish a deal into the network
and the miners now schedules that deal in that data to be
sealed into a sector and and let's get this is scheduling
piece here because When you hire a minor, you're hiring for them
for some amount of data and they have to pack that into a sector
a sector. It has a fixed size, right?
And so they kind of - collect a bunch of pieces from a lot of
parties and then they take all of that assemble it into a
sector and seal it all together. So, you know, think of it, kind
of like the mental model is think of a large storage
container. So think of like a normal one of
those shipping containers that you see on like ships and so on
and so your, your stuff could be the whole container or it could
be Smaller than that. And or if you have bigger stuff
than it gets like partitioned off and do multiple multiple
storage containers. And yeah, definitely if you if
you, for example, want to send larger amounts of data, if you
want to send terabytes or petabytes then sending it over
the Internet is probably a bad idea because it'll take you a
very very long time. And instead of that point you
want to, if you are at that scale, what people end up doing
is, you know, contact the minor and you figure out which miners
you want to go for and you contact them and you initiate a
deal. But But you now have to ship
them, the data physically. And that means like you send
out, send them a drive and they get the drive, they verify that
they actually got the data and they plug it in.
And this is a very important piece because you know vast
amounts of data in the world are moved around this way and I
moved around over the Internet, it's moved entirely off the
internet through physical media medium.
So packaging is one of the main main Avenues but many large
Clouds also provide the support where they'll send, you know, I
think like Amazon does is where they can.
You can schedule a truck to come to your business and like get a
bunch of drives and send them to Glacier, right?
It's like you have to fill that use case.
Once you, hit exabytes of storage in, like the large
amounts of data, you have to allow people to have this
offline first pointed way of moving around data, which is
really cool because it means that you can Not only move large
amounts of data, but it means you can.
You can start moving things in ways that are like less expected
by parties trying to predictive relatively figure out all the
parties that have whenever you don't rely on Crossing certain
borders on the Internet, it's kind of like a really useful
useful feature because it also means you can be for example,
petition tolerant, right? So this is isn't the case today
because Falcon has one blockchain and you can think of
it as kind of like one single singular region, but in the
future, As scalable chains arrived, and this kind of we're
popping is headed being able to split into different and census
regions that map to different regions of geographically, so
that you can be partitioned. All right, so that you can
continue to make deals and serve stuff and so on while while your
petition from the rest of the world because petitioners in the
internet a pretty frequent today already, you know if your data
stored in a minor and you can still talk to them, doesn't
matter that you can't talk to the rest of the network, you can
still get your data from the minor that's entirely off chain.
Planted transaction. yeah, so let's say I have a bunch of data
and I you know Frederick is the minor and I've now shipped her
you know some big pile of data and that now basically we you
know in some level the the finger describing right there is
actually this kind of you know, direct transaction like direct
connection right between me who wants to store the data and you
know her, who's the minor So file coin, what does it add in
this scenario? Is it, is it basically that she
has to put up some collateral and then the Falcon Network and
forces that she actually does store it in the long run.
And then also, that there's this kind of like guarantee that, you
know, other people can retrieve the data.
And again, she has to kind of like guarantee that level of
service. Exactly.
Yeah, so all when you described and those are really critical
components because you know, today people trust the big
clouds because of that reputation and because you can
trust them to continue storing your data rate, your many
smaller think of it. Kind of like the hotel and
Airbnb world where before I became on you totally could go
and stay in random people's houses.
Well, the idea that you could like how do you find them?
How do you trust Ask them. What is the guarantee that there
you're actually going to be able to you actually going to have a
place when you get there and people are going to receive you
and you don't have a good pictures of places or you know,
how do you guarantee good behavior.
They're like the aren't going to Steel yourself in the middle of
the night or something. All of that before we can be was
really hard to establish. It definitely happened, right?
Like there were a lot of people traveling around this way, but
it was a way smaller amount of parties in there was a lot more
risk. So, when everybody came in and
create a Marketplace that standardize the entire flow and
standardize, what it meant to be on the supply side and sanitized
what I meant to be on the, on the demand side and build, a
bunch of tooling to add sort some amount of reputation
systems to it. And so, on a verifiability
around the pictures and whatnot, it just sort of cleaned up the
entire market and it can greatly expanded its potential.
Suddenly tons of places could be online, right?
So if you have a bunch of storage and you want to kind of
Sell it online. How do you go about doing that
similar to if you have a spare room, how do you go about
selling a night in that room without a Marketplace?
And so that's, you know, one of the really critical components
is you need in marketplaces, standardizing create a protocol
for how all of these interactions are supposed to
happen and you solve a bunch of hard problems in the kind of
really add a lot of value. Like the guaranteeing that the
search is going to be there in the long term.
Like that's a really critical component in any kind of storage
relationship having a Network that's large enough to
accommodate a large use, right? So, if it was, if you were kind
of browsing around individual websites and you hear about
somebody having like 10 terabytes or like one petabyte,
like, well should I store my data with this, this group, or
should I just got it on Amazon? If you have a very simple
choice. But if you insert set ourselves
dealing with one large Network and you can certainly expect the
same kind of quality of service across it or you know, some
amount of variability between a between it, but you have a
saint. That's protocol for it.
Then you're totally able to trust a lot of service providers
that can come into that to that marketplace, right?
So it's a, it's really about kind of providing a way for the
vast amount of Supply out there to come together and aggregate
into one Marketplace. That then clients can do
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So the a B&B system kind of evolved gradually right?
So, basically they have a customer support hotline and if
something goes wrong you call them and basically worst case
they give you a money back and you go look for, you know,
physical hotel where ever you're stranded.
So in a way designing a decentralized network is
fundamentally different in that. It's kind of important to get
parameters right from the get-go.
And there's a lot of parameters. I mean pertaining to, you know,
the Staking and the slashing and you know liveness guarantees and
so on. How did you go about designing
those economics? Great question.
So one part is just figuring out what mechanisms do you need?
And a lot of that is thinking about the the interactions in
the flows between parties and what are the value flows that
are happening? What guarantees you need to
establish thing through many, many kinds of layers of a
potential attacks that might Might be possible.
What are the assumptions all over the place?
You want to minimize any kind of trust and make the transactions
themselves verifiable? And so that map to things like
producing per cell replication so that you can, you can
guarantee that the storage is actually there.
And in map to things like an ongoing proposed FaceTime that
you where you can verify that this stuff is Not only was there
initially but continues to be there over time and in map to
mechanisms like what of the fee structures and the punishments
that need to be the fees. And punishments for bad behavior
in the network, right? So if a minor losses data or or
things like that, and one part of this was designing, first,
you think about all these value flows?
You think about the mechanisms, then you start thinking about
what are the possible Feast, not only structures, but value flow.
Some things have to be proportional in certain ways.
Some things have to be at least a certain amount.
Some things have to be markets and kind of set by various
different parties. Together certain things have to
be estimators on network. Activity.
So there's a there's really a very large amount of space here
and a ton of parameters. The way we went about, this is a
large combination of of analysis on individual mechanisms
themselves and then couplings of mechanisms and, you know, and so
on further plus then a whole perfect Comics effort to build
using both simulation and, and kind of like larger scale
analysis Frameworks for figuring out the Structures that would
yield good results. Meaning one part of this is
thinking deeply through the problems and coming up with
actual analytical. Expressions.
That tell you what, the fee structure space has to be.
So you figure out all the constraints between these
systems systems of components and mechanisms, and you kind of
narrow down the space of possibility, so that gives you
some kind of operating range, but that doesn't guarantee that
is going to work. It just kind of gives you some
sense of what the constraints have to be from there.
Some amount is also putting it into a Engineering and and
development and actually running it live.
So we did, we did a number of large-scale network tests with
many miners to figure out what kind of operating parameters
were workable in a number of these things.
You know, theory is one thing, practice is something very
different and and you know, you learn a lot by actually putting
things directly in use. But you know, one big area of
this was a large simulation and ever that we that we undertook
to figure out what a bunch of Different mechanism parameters
have to be in order to yield yield, good results.
And this is kind of a very large effort with a lot of people both
within and outside of PL. So this is this includes various
different teams when PL but also a number of external
collaborators in academic environments and really awesome
group called block science. We've been super super helpful
in building. A lot of the doing some of the
simulation and Analysis and you know, number of research groups
that we collaborated with for many years on Different parts of
the protocol and so you end up with like a large mechanism
design space, and a bunch of parameters that you then have to
make sure play nice. And this is probably one of the
biggest hurdles for not, just for Falcon, but for the entire
web, three space. It is extremely difficult to
build these kinds of larger scale systems.
That do something more complex, because the state space blows up
exponentially and kind of like what the what the parameters
please, you have to search through really becomes very,
very large and a lot of it is you can easily Up with
mechanisms that are too fragile where maybe the operating range
that you have is actually quite small, but some other mechanism
couples with in a weird way in this kind of like causes this
this space to oscillate in a weird way and maybe kind of like
actually breaks things here. So it's part of the part of the
output is like once you do a bunch of this analysis
simulation, you end up realizing that some mechanisms actually
have to change. So, not only do you, not only
have a parameter settings. Sometimes you end up having to
change mechanisms to arrive at a much better.
More stable Construction. Because simulation just showed
you both both either. Sometimes just directly in
analysis or simulation shows you that this is actually like a bad
system design because it is too likely to, you know, most of the
cases that you check out our failures or it is maybe it is
not. It may be its kind of fragile.
And if you're familiar with kind of like the fragility of our
Center for agility way of analyzing systems, where some
systems are fragile, once you kind of push them in certain
ways, they Will tend to and push them out of their considered
normal comfort zone. And they'll, they'll they'll
tend to break all their systems. Kind of respond, more naturally,
to kind of those stresses and kind of recover from those
dresses better. So that kind of lends it for
agility versus antifragility. You can you can apply to this.
And in your analysis simulation, you'll be able to kind of
distinguish what which mechanism sent to be fragile.
And it kind of remove them because fragile mechanisms will
lead to attack vectors and will lie to you.
Might work for now, but one somebody changes something, then
you might get into that state or actually, you think it'll work
but there's an embedded hidden, assumption somewhere that you
never expected them. Something like that actually
doesn't work. So it's a highly complex
Endeavor to build an economy like this.
I mean, I think something like the like a theorem is similar in
that when you think about all of the different mechanisms that
are at play and the gas structure.
And so on, in an appearance case, a lot of this kind of All
the overtime and parameters were set and improved upon over many
months and that kind of scaled with usage and even kind of like
a gas model is kind of going into it into a major re working
with you know the IP if it is 1559 and that you know, if
you're in this case it seems able to shipping out with a much
smaller amount of usage and then over time scale we weren't we
unfortunately did not have that luxury like right away because
we're kind of now in 2020 is supposed to in 2015.
There's a lot more attention in the space as a whole and in
applications like popcorn. And so therefore, just from day
one, we're going to get a much larger scale of usage.
So we had to get a lot more right from the get-go which was
definitely harder larger bar, but it made it, you know, we now
ended up with a much more robust thing and one of the cool things
is like we're actually shipped chips yappy 1559 like, that's
the gas model that we use and it actually works really well.
It just leads to certain kind of Fast base fee, spikes, that food
for thought, for anybody working on this area of gas modeling and
so on really, really good structure, but leads to kind of
like some spikes that make some people really unhappy and it's
easy to kind of run up the base B.
So we are getting a lot of data, think that will be helpful for
the ethereum community as well. Anyway, there's no K.
Large complex. Space.
One of us are a poisson on this is that this is an area where a
lot of tools need to be made. So we had to build a bunch of
internal to NG to, you know, and all kinds of tools to analyze
things in parts or as a whole system and kind of like
simulation Frameworks to be able to model this kind of economic
system. And this is an area where we
definitely wouldn't want to go back to this.
And and think about what kind of tooling will be really broadly
usable by a large number of groups to really kind of, you
know, kind of analyze an in-depth.
How much This economic mechanisms should work.
But also, what's more important than analysis?
I think, is helping generate them.
So I think this is where this this whole web three world is at
a juncture similar to where I think chip manufacturing was
when you transition from kind of like human design, to computer
designed chips where the constraints Mase.
Got so big and and the and the difficulty problem kind of
scaled to the point where people needed to write software to do
all of the chip layout and and solve a bunch of problems.
That previously, you know, they weren't expected humans to solve
but now computers have to solve just because of the magnitude.
I think we're definitely well in that space where now most
perfect Autumn he's that are going to see major usage.
Really should be should have mechanisms that are designed and
checked in great part by by programs.
And the tooling is just not there and does not exist for any
of us. And that is a huge area of
improvement that I think if we had really robust tooling, we
could shave months, two years off of the development of every
major project out there. And all of the scalability
improvements that are going to come in into a lot of the
projects that are out there now. So it's a kind of a really open.
You know, if any listener out there is is interested in these
kinds of topics and has been looking for a project or
something like that, I think. Building really, really good.
Tooling for vertical designers. Here is greatly needed.
That's something that we are kind of exploring as well as to
if we were kind of doing this from scratch.
What are the kinds of tools that we would have wanted to have?
And what are the kinds of tools that we want for the future
versions of how clean and and other protocols and whatnot?
And how my we build those. So either somebody else will go
out there and build this or or we'll have to so ideally
somebody else will do it and we won't have to do it because then
we can just use your thing and I'll be amazing.
So please do that. Otherwise, We'll probably end up
building something here at some point because there's a lot of
utility to be had in. Making it way easier to build
these systems, we're kind of hitting the limit of what teams
of humans can do is just way too complex.
And I think today, you can probably probably the attacks
space on contracts and ethereum is so big.
That there are probably tons of exploits at the moment that are
possible because of the combinations of contracts, but
are not explored because we just don't have the tools to explore
them. Getting the again, the comments
are just pushing the so big, that humans can't be expected to
figure this out. And so now we really need an
assistant to help us find those and close those vulnerabilities
before somebody kind of builds this tooling for bad and then it
kind of explains it. But that would still mean that
basically you would have to specify the intended Behavior,
right? So basically you kind of like in
for my verification, are you kind of have to specify what you
expect, the business logic of the thing to be and building
tooling for how we think about expected Behavior?
I mean, basically, it's kind of like a recursive problem know,
Yes, and no in that today, when people go on design protocols,
they usually do it in their heads and on maybe paper and the
kind of writer no notebook. And you know, then later they'll
go and transcribe that into a GitHub issue and will work in a
some other markdown document and and you'll get a bunch of kind
of paper protocol stuff and that at some point people will after
many rounds of iteration and and review people will then turn.
Turn that and start writing it into some implementation,
sometimes it's prototypes that test of validity of something.
Before you do any kind of like hard engineering work for the
real kind of production, use many times, it's just, you know,
go straight to the production use unlike start building it
into the main client, which, you know, that's going to be way
slow, probably way slower. But because, you know, you're
going to find protocol problems in and pay the big cost of
putting it into the main thing. And then, after all of that,
hopefully you've gone through enough rounds of analysis.
That in the paper stages. And if you're dealing with
economics and a friend, some kind of larger scale framework
analysis and simulation to really know the mechanisms are,
right, and they are going to like put into production and use
it and then hope for the best and like, you know, we're trying
to find problems and fix them. And that's kind of like the
state of the industry. And I think that most of these
Protocols are big enough, that you have dozens to hundreds of
people working on them. And maintaining the protocol
space in one head is just not a thing.
You can do. Anymore.
So what I'm going to talk to you about is you need people to
start working in software from the get-go.
You need people to when they're designing the protocol at the
very beginning, you can greatly reduce the iteration cycle by
doing very kind of straightforward modeling work,
that will kind of show that some mechanism is just not tractable
or, and it won't fit with some other components or wood will
not kind of Function. So it is something close to
formal verification or kind of like the CLA plus style from a
vacation or something like that but I think it's got to be just
dramatically easier. I think most of them over
vacation languages and systems are way too complex for this.
Use case this has to be as simple as writing an expression
in kind of observable or something like that.
Where you have a kind of full system design somewhere and
you're designing parts of the protocol and it's a very kind of
individual researcher or Oriented an individual developer
oriented tool that enables you to kind of add components to the
protocol. But but it's not just one
protocol. It's rather like you can think
of a bunch of different versions, possible versions of
the protocol, with different kind of mechanisms and you can
test against all of these different combinations.
And you can think through which ones end up yielding better
results and you can kind of couple that with simulation and
kind of model checking across the whole thing.
Then you can greatly increase the speed of of building
something as complex as ethereum. 51 and so on.
And I think right now you know kind of back in the day, the
software industry faced a similar can transition between
writing software and tests versus the entire continuous
integration system that we have now.
So today you write code and you can not only write tests and
urine tests for your app, your part of the application and
whatnot and kind of larger integration tests.
But it is in Industry Norm that all of that is going to get
tested through a very Wide Battery of tests across many
different kind of infrastructures before he gets
deployed. And, and once it passes all of
these performance requirements, then it will actually kind of
ship, right? So if you've seen kind of the
dashboard performance dashboards for Chrome or Firefox, that will
give you a sense of every single line of code gets tested across
a, a really gargantuan amount of tests that test all kinds of
things. And if you introduced
accidentally a performance hit somewhere, everyone will know.
Like, you'll see like all kinds of charts.
You know this is this is going bad and software has moved to
this kind of design space and Engineering space because that
was a way to make the development of these kinds of
large infrastructure projects so much faster, right?
So something like Chrome or Firefox has hundreds of people
developing on the, you can't do that in without that kind of
tooling and that kind of testing infrastructure in place.
So that's what I think is necessary for these particles
going forward, we need that kind of the analogous version of that
kind of testing infrastructure, which is not Just the software
yet. This point is really the
mechanism design has to be included in it because there's
just way too much for individual researchers to be able to handle
the larger complexity. And if you think that, you know,
many different developers out there and saying they're in
developers because I think this is kind of like the kind of like
largest smart kind of platform out there with whitest.
Use this probably applies to most blockchains many of them.
They overshot their kind of approach writing a contract,
simply They just kind of you know if they're if they're right
there solidity contract and then they think about how what
explains there might be in that one.
And there's a bunch of tooling that helps, you think about how
to improve it and so on and maybe check some important
cases, you know, few groups actually think through what are
all the other mechanisms available to any theorem
contract, what other theorem contracts are out there and how
is my contract going to get exploited by one of those out
there, right? So am I accidentally creating a
thing where somebody with flash alone capabilities is going to
destroy the entire ER mechanism, I just built or not.
Right. And hey today is Flash loans
tomorrow. It's like some other completely
different thing and so you need it.
You need a whole software, cic d-type version thing, but for
the entire mechanism design space, Our friends over at Al
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their next office hours. We'd like to thank Helga ran for
their support of the podcast. I mean, did you thing that like
this topic, where it really struck me was that?
Well, this is book called. I mean book it's kind of like a
compilation of satoshi's writing.
I think it's called The Book of Satoshi.
So some guy went to, you know all of the old Bitcoin talk and
like all of the kind of things. So she ate And then kind of like
organize it compile it and it's really cool to read.
And one of the things that really struck me when I was
reading, the thing was that, you know, Satoshi is far as we know,
right? He didn't anticipate like a six
and he didn't participate mining pools.
And, you know, Bitcoin is such a simple economic design.
It, you can hardly make a simple economic design for like a
cryptocurrency and then even if such a simple design, it seems
like there is easy, no major unintended Good consequences
that have kind of worked out fine, but, you know, they seem
to not have been predictable or, you know, you know, in
retrospect if we can see like out, of course, this was going
to happen. But like so then, if you think
of like more complex systems like, you know, pretty much most
cryptocurrency since then, and you know, especially things like
file calling. But, you know, even you theorem
right, where you have a different pricing for opcodes
every previous take thing. I, yeah, I think you're totally
right, right. This is Chair hard problem in
such an important problem to get, right?
And you'll probably also you're going to have to have some, you
know, some level of ability to respond actually, that's the
question. I want to bring up here before
is or how does governance work in the file coin Network?
Yeah Rick. Okay so maybe I'll address the
kind of like a because of the flow of conversation all dress
the smaller case of how do you respond to problems and then
kind of remove the broader governance question.
So how do your son's problems is a really key thing for
blockchains and blockchains that don't address this directly and
try to have a lot of value will not end well in our case, the
Falcon community and sort of formed a set of first of all,
there's the, the parties running the network are There's a lot of
minors that are maintaining the blockchain and they have a
really good distribution of power.
So many other block chains are super centralized and in our
case, we have a much better kind of distribution over all with
the power then that many other networks out.
There there's a lot more kind of miners in the contribute to say
have the power or some type of personal power than in a lot of,
a lot of other systems. There's one important thing too
because it prevents many kinds of attacks being exploited very
quickly. You know, there's a number of
network operators that at our have a number of Communication
channel set up and ready for for problems.
And the number of developers both across various different
organizations and companies that are pretty familiar with.
There's for implementations, there's one main one, the most
people run today, but there's a few others that are joining very
soon and a lot of those developers are going to In The
Weeds of a lot of this plus there's a few other miners that
have development shops associated with them so there's
a number of developers. Those miners have Well, it's
kind of like this group of operate Network operators in
this group of developers and there's organizations that have
set up on Call rotations for The Operators and the developers to
be able to address problems. Should they emerge?
So if there's kind of some problem and it requires
addressing very quickly, then we can figure out what the problem
is. As a community describe what the
patch needs to be, discussed it on GitHub, whether it is fully
publicly And if it's not kind of an exploit that's gonna if it's
animal, can natural problem or a well-known thing or privately.
If it's a thing where it's in this kind of an exploit, that's
potentially, we're going to exploit where the or something
like that. And then kind of arrived at what
a potential path might look like.
And number of people look at it and think is a great upon and
then shipped out in a release and then that's a release of the
code. And the that point kind of
network operators in number of miners Get that release,
download the code upgrade their own set of, you know, if they
agree with that, they download the code upgrade and kind of go
from there. And there are kind of upgrades
that are just software only and then there are chain upgrade,
such a upgrades require kind of a state transition and that
sequences are slower. Unfortunately and harder we had
it as a requirement for for Space Race to go through a
number of really hard State transitions in very short, term
Cycles to kind of help boots. Strap the community activity
around this, this kind of work. So that the community kind of
got used to making important changes, state upgrades quickly
because of some major problem emerges.
You need the community, be able to respond to that kind of
stuff, fast and the normal setting of cloud infrastructure,
where there's one company running things, or maybe two or
something like that coordination.
There's can be could be faster, you know, in a world with many
other stakeholders, it could be slower.
In our case. We think that we are Two things
as fast, if not faster than, then other other kind of more
traditional centralized systems because we've taken on the work
of thinking about this as a goal for the network and many Miners
and developers are aligned against that problem, we have
kind of Emergency Response protocol so we've set up put in
place for for this you know, thankfully we haven't had to
deal with anything in two major. I mean not going one and all
that kind of stuff, many many other networks.
Even by our age, we had already Ready kind of encountered a
bunch of problems. We've had a number of important
improvements and changes that need to happen quickly but
nothing kind of super major we will eventually right?
So every every block chain goes through, very large kind of
stabilizing hard problems. You know, theorem had many.
So many blockchains that kind of these types of problems is just
the nature of software and the nature of these systems.
So, the best thing is like a lot of preventative measures.
Plus a lot of kind of fast response measures to be able to,
kind of solve the The problem though is kind of like the how
does the path when I work as a community to respond to these
kinds of issues and and you know it's been really awesome to see
the response in general from many different groups like
individual and thinking of like individual Miners and individual
developers in different communities that have helped
signed bugs, or helped come up with patches or submitted things
and it releases and so. On broader question of, how does
governance work? That's a, we hear we borrow the
ton from a theorem because we reviewed a lot, Lot of different
systems in a lot of chains and and their approaches.
I mean we're super close to in general, a lot of our
communities shared with your community, we sort of feel very
tightly knit and collaborate a lot.
But we sort of saw a really pragmatic feel and and really
kind of successful programmatic structure to the theorem
governing structure where you kind of RFC inspired.
So you have like the normal VIPs and so on and you have kind of
like this you know strong idea of rough consensus and running
code And you have a good principal set in with the
community that you are going to improve things.
And you are going to improve implementations pretty
frequently in quickly. And you are going to come up
with a bunch of standards and so on.
And so we kind of borrowed a lot from that.
And so we saw this as a really good place to mirror a lot of
like the really good good lessons and so we borrowed the a
grant proposal structure which again, comes from Bitcoin and
they turn as well and and standard RFC style inspired
thing. So there are five coin
Improvement. Puzzles and their say, anybody
can submit a claim proposal, and then there's settlement
limitations and implementers that review, those proposals and
kind of are in charge of deciding whether to implement
them into their implementations. But that isn't doesn't
necessarily mean, I'm decision of like, they decided that an
important change needs to land this more.
That's more of a leaving it up to the community thing because
you have the standard structure that happens.
No, blockchains where developers might say x but it might as own
agree, then. It doesn't matter if people are
going to are going to run something else.
And so you have that natural governance, structure, that
emerges what you have like these two groups of parties groups of
developers and groups of miners that have to sort of, its kind
of like a bicameral system. Where like, both parties have to
both groups have to agree with a change before it lands.
So if hips tend to be discussed a lot by Miners and developers,
and so on often this starts in slack, there's like a falcon
Community slack and people end up discussing various different
Avenues of Of a problem, and there's all kinds of discussion
threads that happen there. And from there, it translates
into a GitHub dip. And once it's in a hip people
will then go and discuss it there.
And then from there, we'll get discussed in.
We have kind of a weekly developer conversation that kind
of goes through those steps and talks about, which ones are
slated for implementation or not and what not.
And then, from there, it gets scheduled into releases and then
from there, miners, kind of, you know, voice by that.
If anybody even a large group of - and so on, don't want to
change. Will have already been voicing
it likely isn't gonna get implemented because for medicine
not gonna start implementing something.
If I can get accepted, as you have like this, very kind of
like rough consensus and running code.
Feel to the whole thing. It is not very formalized
intentionally and we thought that that was like a very good
decision from aetherium relative to a lot of other groups because
it made it very easy for emergent things happen.
Quickly that a kind of like non-controversial oil and and it
gave the community a lot of voice for things that are
important and should be taken slower.
And so that's kind of an important kind of mapping that
we thought was useful and valuable.
Now in the long term, we do you think that on chain governance
systems are really the only one really interesting and fought
one may end up with some launching governance structures
in the future. The community in general is
pretty interested in these kinds of things, but we haven't, we
didn't want to kind of help. That all of that risk as well
into an already kind of like highly complex system.
And so, we'll once some of these hunting governance systems and
more fleshed out and tested and work out then the community will
probably, you know, if it's valuable to it up one, it will.
There's also a foundation, this is the foundation, which is
taking on a lot of programs in the community and will help
Steward the long term. There's a lot of things that you
need a kind of like entity in the kind of normal human world
to to do and to help Steward in a bunching environment and
that's when the foundation is going to do long-term.
And so Brooke, allows is transitioning a bunch of
programs over to the foundation to run there.
And it definition is planning a bunch of other things and that
are really interesting and really cool and really exciting
and they as an entity have been given some talks lately and we
But we have a much larger voice in the coming weeks, by the way,
highly recommend you. You meet those folks, really
brilliant. People involved with the
foundation and number number of avenues.
Both, they have a really Stellar amazing Advisory board that has
a ton of amazing people in crypto and in Internet civil
liberties space. Like a number of people from the
FF and also a highly recommend amount of Algeria is like one of
the main people that and it kind of took on building the The
patent Foundation highly recommend checking with her.
And then there's a number of operators that are kind of like
running to the foundation. They'll kind of help build out a
number of important programs and help steer some of that kind of
development groups and committees and whatnot.
But you know, kind of a lot of the principles go back to you
kind of rough consensus and running code and kind of like
the will of what he liked the will of the community.
So you can probably expect a lot of the standard tooling that
emerges with systems like this like pulling tools and and one
not like being able to pull - by mining power, or by certainly
took, the Holdings are useful developers.
And like one of the things we want to do is be able to pull
application developer. So if you have a bunch of
application developers and hearing what they have to say is
really, really key. So we've kind of sketched out
some polling tools that have like these different
constituencies and so you can kind of get a sense of what
people think about certain kinds of community decisions and
whatnot. But, you know, it's kind of
early days, a lot of this still happening in slack and GitHub
and kind of like that. more channels over time as the
network gets bigger and a lot more happens with it will kind
of bring in a lot of the tooling and systems that that other
other groups have So he were talking about the application
developers and I think this is one of the things that I would
really still like to talk about. So there's actually a number of
projects building on top of a coin.
Can you talk about those for a bit?
Yeah, totally. And so there's a, a lot of
different groups and they're coming from.
Some groups are kind of came to popcorn from ipfs and number of
them are kind of newly newly jumping into buckle and I'll
maybe mention. So they may be say there's a
kind of like set of larger developers that have kind of
existing applications that are now starting to use file coin
and then there's a whole wave of new developers that are building
on auckland's like they're totally new.
I think that's also really exciting time.
They don't, I'll talk a little bit about both.
So, in one another Spectrum there's kind of think of this
one use case, which I think is super compelling.
And really important is one of our, my favorite application
applications of PowerPoint. This is a function called
Starling and Starling is a system and framework for
preserving really important and valuable cultural heritage data.
So that means there are some extremely important data sets
out there for that have extremely important.
Cultural value, two groups of people where you really want to
make sure that data stays around and you want to make that
verifiable anyone, you want to be able to verify.
That that data is being kept around.
You want to verify, how many, there are a lot of copies around
the world. That that is not going to get
lost. And you also want to verify that
data has not been tampered with, or time.
It's extremely critical of about data.
I mean happen over time and some of the kind of did some of this
kind of data is kind of important archives of documents
and media, and testimonials of important conflicts in history.
And so, there's a the starting group has been working with a
number of other groups, including the Shoah foundation,
and a number of other, you know, Stanford University and a number
of other groups to build out a an application that uses falc0n.
To back up this incredibly culturally important cultural
testimonial data that's super important valuable and one of
the reasons that they really thought going and found it
really interesting. And really important for that
use case, was that verifiability being able to verify that the
data is being kept around and who's keeping it around and
being able to verify that it hasn't been tampered with.
It's such a critical component in all this that that that that
became kind of like an important kind of you sir.
He's casing. So that's been also extremely
humbling for for me and for a number of number of us working
on fog, going to see such an important use case right away
for kind of having a significant impact on the world.
So we'll see kind of where that has four.
That's a that's a Super Value application.
And use case other users are there's a number of app
developers that are moving around.
Their front ends that are right now hosted on already kind of
address and IP fast, but backed up by either themselves or Or or
or other or their structures and are now starting to move it over
to Pat. Quinn there's one range of
applications around video. That's super exciting where this
is kind of coupling with. So it's a few experiments here
that I think are really really cool.
But I'll mention one in particular which is a
combination of Falcon and live pier where you can now and I
like drag and drop any video to this web page and it will get
moved over to the life. Peer Network get trance coated.
Into all the right important formats for the web and then all
of that will get put into file colon and then stored and
distributed through five coin. So you have kind of like an
end-to-end video distribution thing working with faculty and
life here today and I guess like a super super cool.
Use case there's people working on live video.
So on one part is doing video distribution using a
professional P of live video think of streaming.
Trimming use case and then take the as the video is getting
generated. Once once the kind of live
stream is over storing, the whole thing and unpacking for
the long terms. So then you're able to kind of
view the view, the log of the view that video stream later on,
it's going to some of the video-oriented use case that I
think are pretty cool. Then there's a bunch of defy
oriented things going on, where, you know, kind of a lot of a lot
of the applications that people are building right now and tools
are For the whole mining community.
So there's not only do you have applications that are using
Falcon for something else. But popcorn itself requires some
tools and applications built for yourself functioning, kind of
like with if you're on, there's a number of applications there.
So some of these include ways and structures for creating
better organizational, structures and financial
structures for Mining. And so, one example is very
standard defying loan oriented stuff where you have a bridge
from 2008. Miriam.
And then, you can do a bunch of, like loan oriented stuff and
then back, not to pop one soap - can borrow Lachlan in order to
use it for collaterals but then also structures where you can
have contracts for financing the development of mining
operations, right? So, it turns out of mining
operations in the larger scales are pretty involved in Nevers,
you know, if you want to maintain a bunch of really high
quality storage in a facility and whatnot, then you're able to
kind of start creating some of Organizational structures and
race funding either by selling some of your cash flows or
things like that and this is happening in defy in a theorem,
right? So there's examples of this and
this is groups are exploring different Avenues of for doing
this and kind of in this in this part another area that I don't
think this out yet. But is a pretty interesting
thing is starting to think about cloud storage itself and and
being able to sell capacity in the future as think of being
able to. So any kind of important
commodity in the The world. How's it going to put a National
Industry around it? So think of like being able to
have oil and then have a bunch of different kinds of financial
instruments associated with oil around it.
So because we're commoditizing because parking is commoditizing
this digital storage on the cloud.
People are building kind of structures where you could
potentially start doing the same kind of financial instruments
for cloud storage on blockchain. So that I think we'll take some
time to get going and kick off because it requires a bunch of
exploration around what structures are needed and
whatnot, but imagine having to kind of break ability that you
get out of other Commodities, but you get that in kind of the
digital storage space. So that would be this whole kind
of like, interesting world because, if that's what's
happening with file coin, then that'll push that kind of
activity about storage media to potentially happen as well.
And so that's a whole pack was starting to affect the The
storage media Market as you were describing earlier in some kind
of important ways, building a bunch of different kinds of
systems around Mach 1. There's a set of use cases there
and then there's a whole category of new applications
that there's a number of hackathons already where people
are building a bunch of really cool things from games to Social
Network. They're probably like 15 or 20
different, social networks that I saw this hackathon built using
5 coin like different, you know? Things like Twitter things like
more Facebook news feed & Friends, style things, and
messaging things. And so on that again, kind of
experimented with. I think those things will take
more time to really develop and flesh out and something that
that a lot of people can use. But already I know a lot of
people are experimenting with and building these things kind
of from scratch on talking and that's, that's super cool.
And then there's a pi even in that class that where there are
a number Of people doing this kind of live streaming work and
video-oriented work. This is another really cool one
which is this amazing use case around machine learning
computation around data. So people store data in the
clear and fine and then they get they have this other tooling
that they can then shit competent.
So if this Falcon minor is like equipped with this additional
protocol, then you can shit computation to that minor and
they'll run it over the data that they have.
And Pretty, give you the results and all of that is hooked up in
the standard python tooling so you can have like you're normal
normal data science toolkit and then you just import a few
things. In your normal flow, you like
your notebook structure and now you can both store data to file
colon but also kind of like ship computation to the nodes that
are storing it. And so that's kind of like a
specific minors that are doing this because not all miners are
going to be able to you know automatically do this is kind of
an additional protocol. They have to run but that's kind
of like a like a really cool example of what's going to
happen once. You start adding a lot of
important data that you can compute on and it has a kind of
gravity element to it which where it's way easier to ship
the computation to the data, then the other way around like
you want to move the competition at data, do it there and then
kind of take the results elsewhere.
So we think that this kind of compute Computing over data
stored on Falcone, is going to be a big thing in the long term.
And so we're starting to see the beginning versions of this and
beginning use cases of people experimenting and stuff.
I think those protocols brought take a while to 2%.
Thing, super scalable but already like you can store large
amounts of data and compute with it really easily really cheaply.
It does this have something cool applications out there.
There's also just the idea of using this origin itself, right?
So separate from application building, various different
groups are looking at using open data, the raw data storage and
so on. And that's pretty.
If I can't talk about any of the groups that I know about right
now that are considering in the larger scale spot.
And I think one of the important things here Is any kind of major
groups are going to be experimenting and it was super
knew I could just launched the cycles for any kind of large
petabyte. Scale.
Usage are in the many think of like Enterprise scale time
scales where they're going to be experimenting with with stuff
for quite a while and then they're going to come make a any
kind of public service or whatever.
And so we those are going to be exciting and whatnot but this is
probably more a story for for the future.
But there's already some interesting Pilots that are
forming and Some pretty cool public data uses that that it's
kind of like more where my heart is.
Where a lot of the reason why I started.
I think that's in the first place where around making it way
cheaper and easier to back up. Vast amounts of important
scientific data that's open access that anybody can use and
can compete with, you know, like versioning data sets and all
that kind of stuff and all of that, isn't it?
New finally then finally, I have a can point to and that work for
has vast amount of capacity to back up.
You know, the world's most important scientific data And
kind of provided super cheaply to for people to use and
download and compete with. And that's really there now.
So now I think like the next important Milestone on that
journey is is now starting to work with a number of groups to
start adding a ton of those important data sets or into dark
one. Well, I'll mention one more,
which I think is pretty cool. It's starting to see people
doing pay per view videos and so you can do like video
distribution or the video and do video distribution.
Entirely through Falco and you can do like a man channel
pay-per-view stuff and so that's also pretty cool of any it's not
super safe in that if you get the decryption key you can
probably share it out and and whatnot.
But a lot of the times is this is more about friction then then
getting it super secure. So that's already kind of a kind
of cool. Cool.
Yeah, I mean it's great to see just how much it is going on and
how this ecosystem is blossoming.
So there's 11 of the topic we wanted to touch on because, you
know, before the podcast we had, we had briefly talked about it
with you and you mentioned already this kind of two angles
do. This is the blockchain
scalability topic, right? And, you know, the one hand, it
would be interesting to hear kind of, like, your thoughts on,
how Falcone's going to scale as a blockchain.
But then also, you know, what are your thoughts on kind of
blockchain scalability topic? General.
And specifically, you know what are your thoughts on like Eve to
and you know I think as we are as we are recording this
actually I think like today or something.
I thought the threshold the positive threshold for each to
whose has been crossed. So you know this is like finally
now imminent that you know the first steps towards the you know
the fully through Yeah, so we go back to this.
I just realized that I wanted to add one important for the
community on an application. It's going to add that now.
And then and then go back to this one really important part
of the ecosystem. That's that's growing right now.
Very strongly is this kind of whole life cycle of development
of the hackathons and then people taking those facts and
then going into accelerators and then getting of those kind of
people are kind of continue on to build build businesses, end
up getting in. So, one of the really important
signals in any kind of platform, like, this is how many
developers really care about this or, or trying trying it out
and experimenting with it. And then how many of those
actually build not just hacks, but then go on to build
applications and then get investment.
And then coupled with that is like how many investors in the
in the in the space are kind of investing.
So that's something. I think it's super cool about
puffiness is super early right now and already there's been a
bunch of hackathons. A bunch of Groups out of that
going into accelerators. And then from accelerators,
there's funds forming entirely to build and invest in the
popcorn ecosystem. And so, there are now not just
investors in general. But there are funds emerging
that are just investing in popping applications.
And so it's a really exciting and positive time for people to
get involved with people that are kind of like maybe in
between things or have an application that already use
that profession was maybe maybe a good trajectory for five coin.
It's a super vibrant. Ecosystem at the moment and it's
kind of blossoming and growing a lot and there's a lot of
interest from other developers and from the whole kind of
development support cycle of Grants and Investments.
And so on happening at the moment, so there's probably a
bunch of projects that are getting built today and then the
next few months that are going to be hitting, say three to nine
months from now. So because usually kind of a lot
of these applications take out, take a while to going to get
built out, go out there, and then get users and so on.
So a Of the cool things that are happening at the moment will
probably end up kind of being a whole wave of apps say six to
nine months from now. And yeah, so highly encourage
people to kind of get involved and one really great area for
where we hadn't really seen this happening elsewhere.
But our slack turned out to be a Super Active environment where I
think there's many, many thousands of different people
are there in different groups and there's all kinds of
activities around hackathons. And again, accelerators and what
not all happening in the same space.
And so it's a pretty active environment, kind of similar to
the world of different Discord servers and any theorem
community. So highly recommend people come
in and hang out and check it out.
So the scalability question is super critical and important for
the entire space. This is something that I see as
the biggest hurdle to Broad scale adoption in in 13.
So I think I kind of didn't think about it as the consensus
bottleneck. So today there's just a ton of
transactions. I want to go through a really
tiny amount of bandwidth and most applications that consider
using blockchains, just run into this bottleneck and and have to
start doing. All kinds of crazy off chain
protocols or side chains or all kinds of really contortions of
their application to make it work in the blockchain model.
And so, of course, this is been a topic for discussion for a
long time. A lot of people are on it,
there's a lot of people trying to build much more scalable
blockchain systems and, you know, put at the head of the
pack there. If you're a, have any theorem to
the entire scalability, effort in theorem to is, you know, the
furthest along from From any that I've that I've seen, and I
think the one, the state tackling larger questions, more
seriously. So I think it's a really kind of
a really critical project to to watch and help out and going to
help succeed. And so yeah, it's awesome that,
you know, we kind of just cross the threshold and and you know
the second anus is happening. And now we're going to get to to
go towards the all the sharding and and so on.
I think that in the long term though you kind of like zoom out
for a moment. Do you think about Computing
infrastructure in general? You think about the kind of how
much data gets generated again is in the order of zettabytes,
how much of that is useful to store, probably right now in the
tens to hundreds of exabytes that's again growing
exponentially of that. You know, some fraction of it is
application data, that requires really fast.
Come basically consistency times where people are used to
chatting on a Nap typing. Something pressing enter getting
to the other person and getting persisted into long-term storage
and never losing that. And they're used to kind of
operations on social network websites that they click a bunch
of buttons and all of that gets persisted, some we're building
an application platform that can support.
That kind of a scale of use is not only non-trivial, but will
require solving a bunch of challenges for for web 3.
So, In some cases, you can segment some of the operations
to be client side only and if you can do that, that's that's
great. But there's a lot of operation
that has to be whole network oriented.
And when you hit any kind of real usage, you're going to run
against this limit, this kind of consensus oriented limit and
sure. You can try to do a bunch of
stuff off chain but you end up having a now to problems,
because a whole part of your application has to live on a
blockchain and then there's another part of the application
that's on the client side and kind of a user interface.
And then another part of the application that has to live
somewhere in between some other off chain protocol, that's
custom. And that I think is like not the
way to go at all. I think that for web three to
succeed in a long term, in general, we have to hit a system
that can hit millions of transactions per second and can
get pretty good consistency. And by that, I mean, you know,
sub s style commits where somebody can like type of thing,
press enter and close the application.
Like nice and kind of human scale like within seconds and
know that all of that was stored safely somewhere and someone's
going to be the other users going to be able to get that and
see that. And the applications going to
remember, their settings and whatnot.
And doing that for billions of users in a crypto native sort of
way is going to require that we have is like consistency
structure built in, right? So for applications where it's
really just between us. Draw and a group of people,
that's where things like there's these things called textile
threads, which are part of the textile stock in the apis and
Falcon ecosystems where you can sort of model a lot of your
updates into your application and you into kind of like a
threat of operations. So think of us having a chat
stream or us sharing some documents with each other having
kind of like Google Docs, I'll experience and modeling all of
those changes in that kind of thread and shipping, always
something to each other and to I have some too far gone to sort
and backup in the long term and also being able to kind of pull
that out of there and kind of using.
So there's a bunch of applications for that will work
but that kind of consistency is does not require super hard
rigorous kind of network intermediation, right?
So we can do it like we will dr. Style thing if we if we have a
protocol that kind of in see the updates and I can see my
updates, you can see your updates, we can both sign them
and all we need is a lot of operations to reconstruct the
whole thing, that's easy and that's kind of you don't have to
build a Some of chain thing for that you can use Excel threads
and be done. So that you can now model in
think of a kind of like a normal web developer experience without
kind of thinking of any complex where three crypto stuff and
have some very simple Primitives and very simple data model, it
just works for developers and they don't have to think about
it a lot and like that's kind of working now.
But as soon as you have something where you need some
kind of important business, logic that users can't change.
And it requires some kind of like Network operation.
That's where, where you have to know someone?
They put this into a blockchain or into a network of other off
blockchain, but important validator type roles.
And I think that's that's what I think in the future is going to
be entirely blessings. It just has to be scalable
systems and and again I really think that that kind of there is
so much need for that kind of a transactional model that we're
going to need to build systems that can scale to millions of
transactions per second and clear very Quickly.
And a few of the way that we're going to get, there is by
building consensus systems that can Shard over time as they get
used in certain regions of the world, but where they're really
mapped. They're not kind of just generic
shards across right now. I think like the theorem two
shots are going to be thinking, 1024, charts, or something like
that and maybe 2000 something. I do remember what the last
number is, but they're all kind of the same and they're all
going to be global. And I really think that if
people start modeling these charts as being related to
Regions, you can do a couple things.
One is you can speed up the the consensus sign because it means
you can you can go way faster in one region.
So doing consensus in one continent is way faster than
around. The whole planet is speed of
light. If you rather Good Earth is
pretty big so like, you gotta wait a certain amount of time
for propagation of an out of information.
If you reduce the size and say you create a region in a part of
the world, That looks pretty different and you can keep
subdividing this, right? So if there's a lot of usage in
one region, you can keep going down into a city scale.
We can go all the way down into kind of a data center scale and
Fortune security maps to that, right?
So definitely in the smaller scales you're going to be at
higher risk but your, your stamping, your way up and into
kind of the consensus hierarchy. I think that's one important
component and this geographical split also gives you partition
tolerance, right? So, you can imagine one country
or one class. And losing access to rest of the
internet. And so may be found on the
alternate, they can't see or observe all transactions,
outside of there's here, but you can still get consistent
transactions within that Continental that country or that
City. So I think that watching systems
have to move into that into that realm.
The other component I think is, is really key here.
It's hard shouting in an application oriented way.
So, one of the really key things about Computing, in history has
been being able to recognize That a lot of the access matters
to data and computation use case oriented or a specific kind of
where, a lot of the kind of the reason rights for an application
or important transactions happen.
If you start modeling your system to match the application
to use, you get a bunch of performance gains.
So, I sort of expected that will end up having
application-specific shards or application domain, and
industry-specific charts, that have different parameters weeks
for those use cases. So, certain use cases, don't
require super hard consistency, right away.
They are Are fine with eventual, consistency and there are other
uses where consistency supercritical they don't have to
move as fast as it being able to tune your selection there and
being able to be on a show that operates one way versus another.
It's gonna look really really key piece here.
I think. I like the way that this is
gonna end up playing out. Is that eventually we're going
to split up the consensus protocol part like linearized
stability from all of the smart contract.
And we're going to build one layer.
That's just around getting linearize ability in this, very
kind of hierarchical generic way, that's super scalable.
And then we're going to build systems that can do the
interpretation of what the linearized and the computation
of web that output is at the second layer.
And so, I think like, that's already found it happened with
him so that we can chain is one important step in that
direction. You have, you know, one
important hierarchy split there, where one of the the main the
beacon chain is just around, maintaining like the global
consensus security and not necessarily doing the
competition, the shards. But I think it has to go, like,
I think this is gonna end up getting separated outward, many
different particles are going to be honed in one consensus layer,
which is having figure out with a has to be.
Nobody really knows the parameter space yet.
That is going to succeed there, but I just think right now,
watching assistants are dramatically way too complicated
and they're not going to stand the test of time this way.
I think they're going to Split. I think they're going to have
layers of them ripped up in the same way.
That when you think about the TCP IP stack, these are VIP.
Our first of all, two different protocols that together are
helped by a whole protocol soup, you know, alphabet soup.
Type set of other protocols, many of whom like have changed a
lot over over time and in history.
And a lot of this a lot of flows that don't even use the CP
anymore use Quick and other kinds of systems.
And even when you look at IP itself, it has Change a lot and
has all kinds of like in between layer layer things.
So, I think taking another path of the entire Block Chain system
with an ietf style view of decomposition of protocols, and
really getting at the core problem and building one
protocol that solves one problem.
Extremely well, and that's it. It was going to lead to the
things that are going to stand many decades and that are going
to give us the scalability we need.
It's like that doesn't like a, my thoughts on where the
excavator can go but uh, yeah, everyday like dig into any of
those pieces for there. Yeah.
I mean, then thanks so much for joining us.
Courtney was like, you know, so awesome till I catch up and
like, have this, you know, just a complexity and the richness of
everything happening around file coin and put a collapse is
amazing. And yeah I think you know we
just had beginning right now if the blockchain being live for a
few months and you know, people building your applications.
So yeah we're super excited to see how this is gonna play out
and kind of the impact is going to have in the coming years.
So thanks so much for joining us.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's been a really awesome to get to chat about all these
topics with you really enjoy talking about all these
different area. So it's a really appreciate the
chance to do it and yeah really, really fun conversation.
Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this
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