1 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,760 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 2 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,640 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 3 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,320 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian Equity, and I'm 4 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,520 here with my cohost, Felika Ernst. 5 00:00:24,290 --> 00:00:26,810 Today we're speaking with Sandeep Nailball. 6 00:00:26,810 --> 00:00:31,570 He is the cofounder of Polygon, and he was last on the show in 7 00:00:32,170 --> 00:00:37,130 2020, almost three years ago. Back then, the project was still 8 00:00:37,130 --> 00:00:42,010 called Matic and was sort of an idea that had not really been 9 00:00:42,010 --> 00:00:44,810 built yet. Obviously, lots of time has 10 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:46,330 passed since then and lots has happened. 11 00:00:46,330 --> 00:00:49,970 And Polygon is now one of the largest ecosystems in crypto. 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,840 And recently they announced Polygon 2.0, a brand new vision 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,080 for the future of Polygon, which we'll get deep into here on this 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,720 podcast. But before we do that, Sundeep, 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,800 how are you? Well, thanks for coming on. 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,000 And how are you doing? Yeah, thanks. 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Thanks for having me. And here and you know, I'm. 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,480 I'm doing very well. Very excited to, very excited 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,680 for this chat. Well, so are we obviously, like 20 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,840 I said, you know, Polygon has become such a huge part of the 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,800 broader crypto ecosystem and certainly of the the sort of 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,680 crypto narratives take us, take us through the last three years, 23 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,480 right. When you had this idea which 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,000 was, you know, called Matic back then, which was so the one of 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,240 the very early ideas for a Layer 2 on Ethereum, what's you know, 26 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,400 how is your life change in the last three years? 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,720 So you know before. Going into the last three years 28 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,400 itself like you know but the starting of Poly Polygon or 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,360 starting of Matic network was basically you know I and my 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,640 other Co founder who founders also we were building apps, B 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,720 apps actually on our this thing like of course we had some 32 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,240 protocol level understanding but we were building B apps and we 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,840 realized that you know Ethereum is not ready for scale and. 34 00:02:15,820 --> 00:02:19,660 You know, I also personally like I am, you know, sometimes I call 35 00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:22,020 myself like Web 3 fanatic. Like you know, sometimes I 36 00:02:22,020 --> 00:02:26,620 question myself that you know, am I giving too much of or over 37 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:30,260 indexing on how much the world needs this trustless, 38 00:02:30,340 --> 00:02:31,740 decentralized world and all that. 39 00:02:32,140 --> 00:02:34,940 But generally, like I've been very, you know, kind of 40 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:37,980 passionate about that. You know this is the this is the 41 00:02:37,980 --> 00:02:43,140 world or this is how the the the the next phase of the evolution 42 00:02:43,140 --> 00:02:45,460 of humanity is going to. Happen, right. 43 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:48,980 Like, you know, we came from those empire states where the 44 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:52,980 king was the God, right? Like King can do anything that 45 00:02:53,060 --> 00:02:56,980 that he wanted to do. And then, you know, we had, we 46 00:02:56,980 --> 00:03:00,500 came into these nation state systems where everything became 47 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:03,700 an institution, government became an institution and people 48 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:06,980 were electing the governments. But then you know, those 49 00:03:06,980 --> 00:03:10,590 institutions also. In the last 40-50 years with 50 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:13,230 social media, we started realizing that, you know how 51 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:15,350 much corruption is there in these institutions. 52 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:18,350 And time and again they have proven these institutions have 53 00:03:18,350 --> 00:03:20,950 proven to be prone to corruption. 54 00:03:20,950 --> 00:03:25,350 And somebody who gets enough power, they start, you know, 55 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:28,830 misusing that power. And eventually I feel that this 56 00:03:28,830 --> 00:03:33,670 is the third, you know, stage of evolution of human systems 57 00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:37,020 wherein. You know these trustless 58 00:03:37,580 --> 00:03:41,020 applications would be there and then even the businesses will be 59 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:44,900 built in a community owned, you know as we say community owned 60 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:48,540 businesses and things like that. And and they will you know 61 00:03:48,580 --> 00:03:53,460 empower provide more freedom to individual human beings in all 62 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:55,900 the in more aspects of their lives basically. 63 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:59,620 And somebody actually Harvard actually did a case study on 64 00:03:59,620 --> 00:04:01,900 Polygon and I was there and somebody asked me what what 65 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:03,900 exactly Web 3 reduces the cost of. 66 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:07,010 Because every big technology reduces the cost of something 67 00:04:07,010 --> 00:04:10,890 like you know cars reduces the cost of transportation, Internet 68 00:04:10,890 --> 00:04:13,250 reduces the cost of, you know information. 69 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:15,650 Now that what does web three reduce the cost of And I said 70 00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:20,089 that Web 3 reduces or blockchain reduce the cost of freedom, the 71 00:04:20,089 --> 00:04:23,530 cost of providing freedom or cost of providing democracy into 72 00:04:23,530 --> 00:04:26,730 the system, which is we know that how costly it is to, you 73 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:29,530 know have democracy. So that's where we started 74 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:33,560 Amatic network. You know, we truly believed in 75 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,560 this and we realized that the infrastructure is not ready for 76 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:39,080 building those kind of applications and businesses. 77 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:42,480 So we went into that and at that point in time Plasma was a 78 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,800 solution which you know looked like the was the hottest 79 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,600 solution in that the space and we committed that we build a 80 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,200 Layer 2 using plasma but with an EVM on the layer two. 81 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,520 And in 2020 we launched the launch the chain. 82 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,440 At that time we launched a working Plasma version. 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,400 But then most of the people did not use the plasma chain. 84 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,920 People started using the EVM side of the chains even like 85 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,280 pure EVM part of the chain and then the chain actually even 86 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:16,440 though the chain had plasma built in layer 2 built into that 87 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,720 on that. But most of the people used only 88 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,400 POS chain, right. And then it kind of, you know, 89 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,960 was the was the kind of a, you know, this confusion in the 90 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,440 terminology whether it is a commit chain or it is a side 91 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,000 chain or whatever it is. But then the the, the usage kind 92 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,920 of exploded and it became one of the biggest, you know, block 93 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,880 chains even now I think by daily active users and you know by the 94 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,440 number of applications deployed, it's probably the biggest block 95 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,000 chain. But in the last, But as I said 96 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,920 that the vision was to provide this Web 3 scalable 97 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,960 infrastructure and that infrastructure can only come in 98 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,800 if you have single zones of security, right? 99 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,400 Like you know you do not have. Like right now as we have seen 100 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,520 in the past like we have so many block chains and we were just 101 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,760 discussing before recording also that we have too much 102 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,160 infrastructure, not many apps, right, But those infrastructure, 103 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:09,880 when we say too much infrastructure, that 104 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,600 infrastructure is there. But these are all DI separate 105 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,400 security zones and to connect them you have these bridges and 106 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,720 every other month we keep hearing that you know some of 107 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,000 the other bridge gets hacked and things like that. 108 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,440 So essentially what I am trying to say here is that even though 109 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,710 we have a lot of block space. That block space doesn't have 110 00:06:28,990 --> 00:06:33,830 one single unified security zone like each of the zones or each 111 00:06:33,830 --> 00:06:36,590 of the block space has a different security assumption 112 00:06:36,910 --> 00:06:39,710 and people need to use this third party tools and all that 113 00:06:39,830 --> 00:06:43,070 to do that. So in order to achieve that web 114 00:06:43,190 --> 00:06:48,430 scale for web three, we believed once we launched the chain, we 115 00:06:48,430 --> 00:06:50,830 also evaluated optimistic roll ups and we realized that 116 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:52,310 optimistic roll ups are kind of the. 117 00:06:53,340 --> 00:06:56,380 Maybe the next stage, but they are not the end stage because 118 00:06:56,540 --> 00:06:58,860 you know you are, you have to put all the data back on 119 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:00,900 Ethereum and then you have to have a fraud proofs. 120 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:04,420 It takes seven days to have those fraud proofs fully and it 121 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:06,780 is hard to build also those those fraud proofs. 122 00:07:06,780 --> 00:07:10,540 Like currently you know, I do not think any layer two has a 123 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,820 you know, fully permissioned fraud proofs only. 124 00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:17,340 I think arbitram people have, you know, permission fraud 125 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:19,060 proofs. But most of the other optimistic 126 00:07:19,060 --> 00:07:21,340 roles do not even have any kind of proofs whatsoever. 127 00:07:21,620 --> 00:07:23,630 So. That point itself, we had 128 00:07:23,630 --> 00:07:28,150 decided in 2021 that ZK is the end game and we wanted to go big 129 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:33,590 on ZK and then by that time like you know we in 2021 we merged or 130 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:37,910 on boarded some of the top most ZK talent in the space must one 131 00:07:37,910 --> 00:07:41,030 or two like Hermes, Polygon like the Hermes product project which 132 00:07:41,030 --> 00:07:43,750 was building AZK roll up they merged with Polygon network. 133 00:07:43,990 --> 00:07:46,990 Similarly the mean protocol must with Polygon network and today 134 00:07:47,310 --> 00:07:50,830 we have 2-3 dire separate teams who were building it. 135 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,760 And you know the benefit of these different different teams 136 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,160 was that in the last four years there's a multiple projects who 137 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,560 have been trying to build these ZK rollups. 138 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,040 But having those multiple teams, they were able to contribute to 139 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,720 each other from different different angles and you know 140 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,160 trying to were able to tell the teams that where can be some 141 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,280 gotchas that you will find 3 months down the line. 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,640 And the result of that was that in March of this year 2023, we 143 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,480 launched our first like first full blown. 144 00:08:19,850 --> 00:08:23,490 ZK VM which is audited fully mature source code and all that 145 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:28,250 and we launched it in March and that is actually the first full 146 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:33,010 blown layer to exist with the validity proofs. 147 00:08:33,370 --> 00:08:37,770 And since then we have done a lot of leaps in the ZK 148 00:08:37,770 --> 00:08:42,210 technology that we are building some of our ZK technology like 149 00:08:43,010 --> 00:08:47,350 Plonky to pill. This is being used by large 150 00:08:47,350 --> 00:08:51,030 scale amount of developers all the all all across the space. 151 00:08:51,030 --> 00:08:54,070 Whenever somebody is building on ZK, people are using this 152 00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:57,270 technology and you know like Geordie, I think you guys know 153 00:08:57,270 --> 00:08:59,830 Geordie Bellina who is one of the Co founders at Polygon. 154 00:08:59,830 --> 00:09:04,230 He is built Sercom which is kind of the first you know first 155 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:07,390 programming language you get into when you start to build ZK 156 00:09:07,390 --> 00:09:10,470 circuits and things like that. So a lot has happened and now 157 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:12,750 today Polygon is a ZK powerhouse. 158 00:09:13,210 --> 00:09:16,370 And as you as you said that one of the largest ecosystems in the 159 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:20,770 space but the goal from here of Polygon 2.0 is to is the goal is 160 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:23,530 same, the mission is same. How do we get web three to the 161 00:09:23,530 --> 00:09:25,810 mainstream. How do you how do we play this 162 00:09:25,810 --> 00:09:29,730 role to get in the next evolution of humanity. 163 00:09:29,730 --> 00:09:32,410 I call it Web 3.0 as Manatee 3.0. 164 00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:34,290 So how do we play a bigger role in that? 165 00:09:34,690 --> 00:09:37,850 And the goal is still the same that you know how to provide 166 00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:41,330 this infinitely scaling infrastructure for Web 3. 167 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,880 Which also has, you know, same security zones so that the value 168 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,480 can move into seamlessly from one place to another. 169 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,600 You know, meaning that the entire block space should look 170 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,160 like one single block chain, one single block space. 171 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,320 Instead of like, you know, you, you kind of, you know, moving 172 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,200 your value or bridging from one chain to another and things like 173 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,000 that. Kind of getting the similar kind 174 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,960 of qualities that the Web 2 today has for information. 175 00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:11,500 It's infinitely, practically infinitely scalable. 176 00:10:11,900 --> 00:10:17,380 But it is also seamless. Same case with Web 3. 177 00:10:17,860 --> 00:10:21,780 Infinitely scalable block space but seamless moment of value. 178 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:24,740 That is, what is Polygon 2.0? That's the whole journey. 179 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,500 Cool. So I think I understand the 180 00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:29,700 value proposition for Polygon 2.0. 181 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:33,420 In a nutshell. How will it? 182 00:10:33,770 --> 00:10:37,170 Look or how will it be designed just so we can kind of deep dive 183 00:10:37,170 --> 00:10:41,130 into the individual bits later, Absolutely great question. 184 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:43,210 So it's very simple, like, you know, so we. 185 00:10:43,210 --> 00:10:44,970 Believe that under the fundamental. 186 00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:49,250 Layer of. This trustless you know world 187 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:53,970 web three is Ethereum and that's where the most of the value will 188 00:10:53,970 --> 00:10:57,370 be created or more than created. I would say most of the value 189 00:10:57,370 --> 00:11:01,210 will be secured right And so that is the settlement layer we 190 00:11:01,210 --> 00:11:02,850 where where all the values being. 191 00:11:03,220 --> 00:11:05,220 Settle secured and and things like that. 192 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:08,540 But on top of that, you will have hundreds and hundreds or 193 00:11:08,540 --> 00:11:12,180 maybe thousands or millions of chains which will connect back 194 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:16,060 into Ethereum using some sort of a proving mechanism which we 195 00:11:16,060 --> 00:11:19,900 believe that ZK and most of the biggest researches in the space 196 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:21,660 believe that ZK is the end game for that. 197 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:24,700 So you know, you prove all of the execution on all of these 198 00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:28,700 chains back on Ethereum, and then because every chain is 199 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:31,940 proving the ZK their execution back on Ethereum. 200 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:36,170 The value can move to and fro between these chains just by 201 00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:40,770 relying on those zk, right? So that's the simplest idea 202 00:11:40,770 --> 00:11:43,330 about it. And between these chains and now 203 00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:46,010 how it will look is that you know you have Ethereum, you have 204 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:48,770 hundreds and hundreds of these chains, all of them are proving 205 00:11:48,770 --> 00:11:51,650 back to Ethereum and they can rely on each other and the value 206 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:53,530 can seamlessly move between each other. 207 00:11:53,530 --> 00:11:58,130 So all these chains connected to this common bridge or ZK proving 208 00:11:58,130 --> 00:12:00,220 layer which? Currently we call it LXLY 209 00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:02,420 bridge, but we are moving it to an aggregated layer. 210 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:05,700 So it will it will be aggregated together and with that 211 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:08,660 aggregated layer, all these chains connected to this 212 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:13,300 aggregated layer will feel like one single value network right? 213 00:12:13,340 --> 00:12:16,100 Instead of just like the way Internet feels today like you 214 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:19,060 are sitting in somewhere in Europe, I am sitting in UAE. 215 00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:22,660 We can create, exchange, share this information. 216 00:12:22,940 --> 00:12:26,660 Same way you know with Polygon to whatever we believe should be 217 00:12:26,660 --> 00:12:29,600 possible for the value. Infinite amount of scaling. 218 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,360 More block chains. More applications need more 219 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,000 block space they can spin up and dedicated block space. 220 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Also not publicly shared block space. 221 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,560 They can spin up their own chains. 222 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,880 But their value is still secured. 223 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,560 Anybody can trust their value because it is being zk proven on 224 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:47,960 Ethereum and then that value can move around. 225 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,240 Cool. So we'll deep dive into the 226 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,960 inter probability part of this later. 227 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,600 Let's kind of look at the ZK part first, right. 228 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,360 So we see there's two different chains that are in principle 229 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,720 possible and that you guys also operate, right, or are going to 230 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,240 operate. There's kind of the ZK EVM which 231 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,560 is kind of the full, full blown roll up with all costs 232 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:15,040 associated with it. And then there is the so-called 233 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,760 Validium, which you're transitioning Polygon POS into, 234 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,680 and maybe that's kind of back up for a second. 235 00:13:24,110 --> 00:13:25,990 What is a validium? So what's the distinction 236 00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:27,990 between a validium and ZK roll up? 237 00:13:29,710 --> 00:13:33,670 Essentially when you are doing these layer 2 scaling, what you 238 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:37,790 are doing is you are having some computation somewhere off chain. 239 00:13:38,270 --> 00:13:41,630 So and then you just prove back on Ethereum, so you don't have 240 00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:45,230 to do the execution or the computation on Ethereum and then 241 00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:49,070 it is happening somewhere else, but Ethereum is getting it and 242 00:13:49,470 --> 00:13:53,390 primarily to prove the computation fully. 243 00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:57,140 Like you have actually two things like let me take it with 244 00:13:57,140 --> 00:13:59,500 optimistic rollers. First in optimistic roll ups you 245 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,580 need to have both two things. The two things are the proof of 246 00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:08,260 the execution and then the second is the data like what 247 00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:10,500 were the individual transaction data was right. 248 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:14,380 And with optimistic roll up because it is by by nature it's 249 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:16,540 optimistic, it's assume everything is correct. 250 00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:20,500 So what you have to do is you have to take the whole data, put 251 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,340 it back data on the on the Ethereum. 252 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,160 And also put the state proofs and all that. 253 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,040 And then you assume that at optimistically everything is 254 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,720 correct. But if something is wrong, 255 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,440 somebody from the community can come and you know do this thing 256 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,920 called fraud proof, right, and run something about. 257 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,320 That's why you have to take, you have to, you have a withdrawal 258 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,720 delay of seven days from optimistic roll ups because you 259 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,240 need to give enough time for anybody in the public to come 260 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:50,160 and, you know, raise a contest or, you know, raise a fraud 261 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,880 proof on on on material. Whereas with ZK, with ZK what we 262 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,400 are doing is and this is the power of the magic. 263 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,720 Magical power of ZK is that you can have millions and millions 264 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,520 of computations on some off chain layer. 265 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,160 With ZK you can have a very concise proof of that 266 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,800 computation and justice prove it back on Ethereum. 267 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,600 It is called validity proof. It is not called fraud proof, is 268 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,040 called validity proof. The moment ethereal smart 269 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,920 contract validity, smart contract accept the validity 270 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,660 proof. You can, you know. 271 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:24,300 Everybody can be rest assured. That all the execution. 272 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:28,260 The the the computation that has been done on that layer two has 273 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:32,020 been done as per the rules of consensus right As immediately 274 00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:35,580 you are 100% sure. So you do not in case of ZK roll 275 00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:37,020 ups. You do not even need data on 276 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:39,140 Ethereum to prove everything right. 277 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,420 So you can keep the data off chain which is called validity. 278 00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:45,620 So in case of optimistic roll ups or even ZK roll up, when you 279 00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:48,220 want to keep the data also on Ethereum and the proof also on 280 00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:51,350 Ethereum, it is a roll up. When you keep proof on Ethereum 281 00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:55,230 and data somewhere off chain. That is called a validium and 282 00:15:55,550 --> 00:15:59,070 validium in case of ZK because whole computation is being 283 00:15:59,070 --> 00:16:02,670 proven on Ethereum, it is as secure as roll up. 284 00:16:02,830 --> 00:16:06,710 In terms of security. Only difference is like there is 285 00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:09,310 a one particular attack vector that they say which is a very 286 00:16:09,310 --> 00:16:13,270 corner case of an attack vector where a particular sequencer or 287 00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:17,550 a operator is running a validium and that validium. 288 00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:22,930 You know stops or kind of starts hiding the data that does not 289 00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:26,570 show the data to the users because users need data to exit 290 00:16:27,010 --> 00:16:29,530 the platform, right? So it is called ransom attack. 291 00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:32,490 So user the sequencer. In case of optimistic roll up, 292 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:37,090 they can steal the users fund but because of the fraud proof. 293 00:16:37,610 --> 00:16:39,450 That is only. Protected using the using the 294 00:16:39,450 --> 00:16:42,730 fraud proof. In case of ZK roll ups the the 295 00:16:42,730 --> 00:16:45,370 the sequences cannot steal the user fund, they cannot touch it. 296 00:16:45,690 --> 00:16:48,460 All they can do is if. The data is not on chain. 297 00:16:48,460 --> 00:16:52,740 They can hide the data or stop showing the data and try to do 298 00:16:52,740 --> 00:16:55,580 this ransom attack to the user where they say you will give me 299 00:16:55,580 --> 00:16:57,660 this much money. If you have $1 million give me 300 00:16:57,660 --> 00:17:00,580 200 K then I give you 800 K back or something like that. 301 00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:03,740 So this is a but then there are multiple mechanisms these days 302 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:06,940 where you have forced you know transactions and things like 303 00:17:06,940 --> 00:17:09,500 that and it can like you know people are building these 304 00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:12,579 solutions where if the sequencer is not giving you your money, 305 00:17:12,780 --> 00:17:15,700 you can sequence your transaction first on the chain 306 00:17:16,099 --> 00:17:18,569 and. Even if the ransom attack occurs 307 00:17:18,569 --> 00:17:21,210 like you know the the the sequence that has to process 308 00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:23,890 your transaction, So there are multiple ways but there is still 309 00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:27,569 a very small element of this small data availability but 310 00:17:27,569 --> 00:17:32,250 which can be extremely minimized if you have a decentralized set 311 00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:34,850 of sequences there. And with ZK that is possible 312 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:36,650 right. So we were even discussing like 313 00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:40,090 imagine Nosys chain starts proving back on ethereal, right? 314 00:17:40,090 --> 00:17:43,130 And Nosys chain already has hundreds of like you know, I 315 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:46,610 think 45,000 or like you know some insane number Nossys chain. 316 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,120 As like in terms of Nosa's chain has 140 thousand validators, 140 317 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,680 thousand. So you know if these validators 318 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,440 are running this chain and they are proving back on Ethereum, 319 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,800 the data is also fairly decentralized. 320 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,440 You do not need to rely on so that that validium is almost as 321 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,680 secure as like not theoretically but practically as secure as a 322 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,280 full blown roller. So that is the only deposition. 323 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:15,220 May I kind of just back up and kind of try to explain the 324 00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:17,260 attack in slightly different words. 325 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:21,420 So basically what you kind of need to kind of exit the chain 326 00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:24,180 by forced inclusion is you need the exact state of the chain, 327 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:26,500 right? And kind of if you want to go 328 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:30,620 from checkpointed image to checkpointed image, you kind of 329 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:34,940 you need to know which transactions have happened in 330 00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:38,660 since the last state so you can reconstruct the exact state and 331 00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:42,900 if if basically at. You know, one transaction from 332 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:46,660 from that entire set is missing. You can't reconstruct the state 333 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:51,180 and you can't kind of force an exit, which is kind of the 334 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,500 attack factors, right. So basically it's kind of it's, 335 00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:55,980 it's. I agree that it's somewhat 10 336 00:18:55,980 --> 00:19:01,660 years and it kind of also requires the collusion of 2/3 of 337 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:05,620 the validators, which in your case would be 67. 338 00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:10,060 So yeah, so I I totally, I totally understand that and. 339 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,280 Also, if you kind of look at the costs associated with being in 340 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,120 there too, the majority of the costs actually come from the 341 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,160 data availability. So basically just posting 342 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,040 everything at its core data at the moment or basically posting 343 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,400 everything you know in a in a data BLOB. 344 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:33,240 As soon as we have tank sharding, it is the lion's share 345 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,040 of the cost. It's like 99.9% or so. 346 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,120 Of the cost only, like .1% of the cost or so is the actual. 347 00:19:40,510 --> 00:19:45,550 Proof of the state, As you said, basically what you can do is you 348 00:19:45,670 --> 00:19:48,430 can prove that the state is correct. 349 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:52,990 Malicious actors might still be able to kind of freeze the 350 00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:55,790 chain, but basically that's the best they can do. 351 00:19:56,030 --> 00:20:00,070 They can't steal anything, Okay. So I think now we kind of have 352 00:20:00,070 --> 00:20:04,670 established very clearly the the delineation between a validium 353 00:20:04,670 --> 00:20:08,650 and the ZK rollup. So there's this, there's this 354 00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:13,290 diagram that the Celestia team has put out and I think a lot of 355 00:20:13,290 --> 00:20:15,690 people have seen. It's like it's this chart where 356 00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:19,690 you have on one axis like Ethereum centric applications 357 00:20:19,690 --> 00:20:21,410 and Celestia centric applications. 358 00:20:21,810 --> 00:20:25,370 And on the other axis you have the different layers of the 359 00:20:25,370 --> 00:20:27,570 blockchain stack, so data availability, consensus, 360 00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:29,850 settlement and execution. And then there's like the 361 00:20:29,850 --> 00:20:31,970 monolithic chain you have roll ups Solidium. 362 00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:34,840 So I'm sure lots of people have seen this graph and short of it 363 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,480 sort of shows the different ways that one can construct A 364 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,120 blockchain with these different layers. 365 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:44,880 I just want to get a sense of where Polygon sits in this 366 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,600 mental model. So for the ZK roll up, execution 367 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,120 is happening on the Polygon ZK roll up, but consensus, 368 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,920 settlement and data availability are happening on Ethereum. 369 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,880 With Validium the data availability is on Ethereum and 370 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,400 then the consensus, settlement and execution are part of the 371 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,200 Polygon stack. Is that correct? 372 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:10,720 In case of Validium, the proving settlement is on Ethereum, but 373 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,040 then data availability. In case of like you know 374 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,160 Validium especially let us say, let us talk about Polygon POS 375 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,200 chain which is one of the examples, right. 376 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,040 In case of Polygon POS you have 100 validators and these hundred 377 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,360 validators can by you know can as well serve as data 378 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,560 availability. You know members of this chain 379 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,680 also, right? So these validators are only 380 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,120 proving on Ethereum. So settlement is on Ethereum. 381 00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:36,730 But the data is is on Polygon PSJ right? 382 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:40,490 But then if you see other Polygon you know chains. 383 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:43,650 For example let us take an example of ZK AVM, ZK AVM. 384 00:21:44,010 --> 00:21:46,450 Both the data and prove are going to theorem. 385 00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:51,010 It is a full blown roll up right Now the execution is single 386 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:56,250 sequencer but that we want and we will be decentralizing this 387 00:21:56,450 --> 00:21:58,330 the execution of the ZK AVM chain. 388 00:21:58,330 --> 00:22:01,130 So there will be multiple ZK, AVM executors, right? 389 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:03,730 So in this case, consensus will remain off chain. 390 00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:08,210 But the whole data. And the proof will remain on 391 00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:11,250 Ethereum. In case of Polygon POS chain, 392 00:22:11,530 --> 00:22:14,970 only settlement is on Ethereum, but the consensus and data 393 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:18,290 availability is off chain. Similarly, you can have some 394 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:20,570 other kind of. Let's say you talked about 395 00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:24,810 Celestia, a kind of chain which is which has single sequencer 396 00:22:25,370 --> 00:22:28,570 which puts the proof on Ethereum, the settlement layer, 397 00:22:28,970 --> 00:22:31,810 but puts the data on Celestia. Or any other. 398 00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:35,170 Data availability chain for that matter, its own data 399 00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:39,250 availability layer or its even Polygon ecosystem with that 400 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:42,770 staking hub and you know, and we will talk about that like in 401 00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:44,170 multiple. Roles in the theory. 402 00:22:44,170 --> 00:22:47,810 Of Polygon ecosystem. In Polygon ecosystem, the 403 00:22:47,810 --> 00:22:52,970 validators will also be offered able to offer this role of data 404 00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:55,250 availability. We call them tax like you know 405 00:22:55,250 --> 00:22:58,130 they can be L tax local data availability committees because 406 00:22:58,130 --> 00:22:59,690 if you are running lets a gaming. 407 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,440 App like you know your game is a small game. 408 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,440 You still want the value to be fully. 409 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,640 Secured by Ethereum. But you don't want all of your 410 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,720 data, you know, being put on to Ethereum, L1 or like you know, 411 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,880 some other global layer like even Celestia. 412 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,960 That will also become costly if it starts getting filled enough, 413 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,840 right? So essentially you might need 414 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,080 your own like 5 or 10 validators which are providing very low 415 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,720 cost data availability to you and when your scale is small you 416 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,200 are happy with that once you start becoming let's say from. 417 00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:32,750 10,000 users to 1,000,000 users to a 10 million users. 418 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:35,950 You might want to change your data availability assumptions 419 00:23:35,950 --> 00:23:39,830 and we want like just like on AWS you know when your startup 420 00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:43,150 is growing or your product is growing, you change the 421 00:23:43,150 --> 00:23:46,070 configuration of your servers and improve it. 422 00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:50,110 As per the you know the configuration of the the users 423 00:23:50,110 --> 00:23:52,270 need. Similarly, we also want that 424 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:55,870 Polygon for the developers to have a full blown stack where 425 00:23:55,870 --> 00:23:58,550 they can change these configurations as they go along. 426 00:23:58,870 --> 00:24:01,240 So. Yeah, these are the different 427 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,480 you know kind of configurations where we kind of want to play 428 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,720 role is obviously is on the execution layer where the 429 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,760 validators like you know, we believe that a lot of like app 430 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,360 chains, for example Immutable X which is one of the biggest 431 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,960 gaming players, they use all the Matic validators on their 432 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,920 chains. So they want their chains to be 433 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,480 Matic validated, but still the ZK proven on the theory. 434 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,640 So that's a double kind of benefits they want to be, well, 435 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,290 idioms, but. Decentralizable idioms with 436 00:24:30,770 --> 00:24:34,130 Ethereum as the final settlement layer you have. 437 00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:43,290 Polygon to settle back on Ethereum like Polygon ZK proofs. 438 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:37,290 You know many other chains where they have their own set of 439 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:44,410 validators, but they just. So these proofs. 440 00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:47,850 So for that let me introduce this concept of especially as a 441 00:24:47,850 --> 00:24:49,730 part of Polygon 2.0 aggregator layer. 442 00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:53,690 So the aggregator like in the in the current setting, let's say 443 00:24:53,690 --> 00:24:56,290 you have 100 chains, all of them are proving. 444 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,640 On Ethereum, some of them have matic validators, some of them 445 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,040 have single sequences, some of them have their own consensus 446 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,960 mechanism, own validators, All of them are proving on Ethereum 447 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,760 and everybody is proving let's say every half an hour. 448 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,840 So everybody has to pay Ethereum gas fees for half an hour. 449 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,240 Proof right, Which can be fairly costly, $5200 and then you know 450 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,040 they are able to prove only 30 minutes. 451 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,200 So any kind of interoperability, we call it LX and Vibridge needs 452 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,200 minimum 30 minutes because once you put the proof. 453 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,120 Then you can move your funds around the other chains. 454 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,600 So but with the aggregator layer, what we are introducing 455 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,360 is because we we have plonky 2 which is the fastest recursive 456 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:38,960 recursion library, right? You know you can combine ZK 457 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,560 proofs into one second. So with this aggregator layer, 458 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,960 what will happen is all these chains can submit their proofs 459 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,000 to this aggregator layer where it will be aggregated. 460 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,760 Like let's say thousand chains, 100 chains, all of them put a 461 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,130 proof. Those 100 proofs get aggregated 462 00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:56,090 and just one proof gets goes back on it. 463 00:25:56,610 --> 00:26:00,890 So the cost of proving to the chains becomes extremely low now 464 00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:05,010 and what it enables is now the chains then can prove every 10 465 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:07,290 seconds 20 seconds. So the cross chain 466 00:26:07,290 --> 00:26:10,650 interoperability between the chains become much much faster 467 00:26:10,650 --> 00:26:13,090 because the moment you are on chain number, let's say you are 468 00:26:13,090 --> 00:26:15,570 on IMX game chain. And you? 469 00:26:15,570 --> 00:26:18,930 Are playing a game and you you made $1000 playing that game. 470 00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:21,930 On those tokens. And now you want to swap those 471 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:26,210 tokens on to let's say Gnosis pay chain for example, which is 472 00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:28,810 let's say assumingly it's connected or you want to swap it 473 00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:32,090 on ZKVM. So the moment your chain, the 474 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:36,530 game chain publishes the proof 10 minutes into this aggregated 475 00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:39,210 layer. Now you can take this ZK proof 476 00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:41,850 and go to the other chain which has the visibility of the 477 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:43,650 aggregated layer and the proof has come in. 478 00:26:43,930 --> 00:26:47,050 They can actually run your cross chain transaction quickly. 479 00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:49,290 And then you can take it back in 2030 seconds. 480 00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:52,970 And that is the ultimate goal of Polygon Tomato, wherein you are 481 00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:55,890 on your own chain wherever you are playing game and all. 482 00:26:55,930 --> 00:27:00,090 You don't even care where where your money is, you just do like 483 00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:03,810 OK, swap and then in 20 to 30 seconds, just like Ethereum 484 00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:06,210 blockchain main chain kind of finality. 485 00:27:06,810 --> 00:27:09,890 Somewhere else you use the liquidity, somewhere else it 486 00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:11,810 gets swap and you get the USD back. 487 00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:14,970 On your on your chain. So again, as I was saying that 488 00:27:15,010 --> 00:27:16,730 all these chains should feel like one single. 489 00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:19,870 And so that's where the Polygon wants to play the role, some on 490 00:27:19,870 --> 00:27:22,990 the execution layer, but mostly also on this aggregated layer 491 00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:25,710 where all the proofs are being aggregated. 492 00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:29,110 And the value as we say value layer of Internet like we want 493 00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:31,670 to play the value layer of Internet where all these chains 494 00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:34,790 are providing these execution layers And then Polygon is 495 00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:38,830 allowing that information or value to seamlessly flow across 496 00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:42,630 these execution environments, I think you kind of. 497 00:27:43,330 --> 00:27:46,290 Already touched on this, but spell it out for us. 498 00:27:46,290 --> 00:27:50,890 So basically if you kind of talk about like these two different 499 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:54,130 scenarios of kind of user sharding and application 500 00:27:54,130 --> 00:27:55,890 sharding. So basically the first being 501 00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:58,130 where the user kind of lives on one chain and kind of does 502 00:27:58,130 --> 00:28:01,210 everything on that chain. Whereas the 2nd is kind of 503 00:28:01,410 --> 00:28:04,370 different applications live on different chains and users kind 504 00:28:04,370 --> 00:28:07,170 of seamlessly switch between those two. 505 00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:09,210 You fall into the second camp I assume. 506 00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:13,730 Yes, yes. I mean I also see like one 507 00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:18,610 important part of Polygon 2.2 is we don't want to be we we try, 508 00:28:18,610 --> 00:28:21,690 we have tried to be as less opinionated as possible. 509 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:25,930 Like if you see in the current Internet 2.0 like which we call 510 00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:30,690 web two world, the protocol TCP IP which actually ended up 511 00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:33,650 becoming the backbone of this whole Internet is the least 512 00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:36,570 opinionated platform, you know protocol right. 513 00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:40,410 So what we believe is our job is to provide the seamless. 514 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:44,420 And secure movement of value across these chains, right. 515 00:28:44,940 --> 00:28:49,340 So our architecture doesn't put a very strong opinion on that 516 00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:53,220 whether all of the things should happen on one chain like all 517 00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:56,300 applications would exist on one chain or they exist on other 518 00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:58,060 different chain. What we believe, but I believe 519 00:28:58,420 --> 00:29:02,620 is more of a more practically what will happen, what will end 520 00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:05,860 up happening is that you will have some of these public chains 521 00:29:06,340 --> 00:29:09,860 which will have massive amount of liquidity people. 522 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:14,050 Swapping and doing some very high, high value stuff, but then 523 00:29:14,090 --> 00:29:16,930 apps each of the apps because apps want. 524 00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:18,970 Dedicated capacity like you guys are. 525 00:29:18,970 --> 00:29:23,410 Building this amazing like you know nosses pay you know system 526 00:29:23,410 --> 00:29:25,010 where you want users to be able to. 527 00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:29,370 Pay within a millisecond, right? So you do a kick and then OK pay 528 00:29:29,410 --> 00:29:31,530 and pay payment app, so. You would want. 529 00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:33,530 Dedicated capacity for your change. 530 00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:37,090 Like you would not be looking to have a you know scenario where 531 00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:39,780 there is a. You know some nft pigment is 532 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:43,420 happening and now my payments are taking you know 50 minutes 533 00:29:43,420 --> 00:29:47,060 50 seconds to go through right? So people need or application 534 00:29:47,060 --> 00:29:52,220 need dedicated capacity and. Their own scalability. 535 00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:53,740 Space to exist. Some of the. 536 00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:57,940 Chains will be like we believe like and this you know imx will 537 00:29:57,940 --> 00:30:02,140 be the first kind of we feel it will happen is that they will 538 00:30:02,140 --> 00:30:04,300 themselves be a cluster of. Chains. 539 00:30:05,170 --> 00:30:08,850 Because they have 150 triple-A games even of one of them 540 00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:14,090 explodes heavily that chain that game will acquire or kind of 541 00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:16,610 like you know will occupy the whole chain itself. 542 00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:21,290 So what I what we believe is public chains, lot of liquidity, 543 00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:25,170 some high value stuff going on, app chains, long tail, short 544 00:30:25,170 --> 00:30:27,530 tail, very. Very, very big kind of 545 00:30:27,570 --> 00:30:29,850 ecosystems. Plus then you have these 546 00:30:29,850 --> 00:30:32,890 ecosystem chains where some of the Ecosys like this is a gaming 547 00:30:32,890 --> 00:30:35,990 ecosystem, there is a. Social network ecosystem and all 548 00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:38,030 that. And it's like these will act 549 00:30:38,030 --> 00:30:41,470 like more like servers, like Twitter is not running on one 550 00:30:41,470 --> 00:30:45,110 single server somewhere, it's running on hundreds and hundreds 551 00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:47,110 of these coordinated. Servers and that's what. 552 00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:52,510 So we wanted to have that Internet the way Internet has 553 00:30:52,510 --> 00:30:55,030 grown today for information. We wanted to have that 554 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:57,830 architecture in mind and that's one of the reasons how Polygon 2 555 00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:58,670 part looks. Like this? 556 00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:02,330 So I don't fall in any camp. Like I believe that the world 557 00:31:02,330 --> 00:31:04,850 will look like a very mesh space. 558 00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:08,650 Some of them will be kind of dedicated chains, app chains. 559 00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:09,890 Some of them will. Be ecosystem there. 560 00:31:09,890 --> 00:31:12,450 Some will be high liquidity public chains. 561 00:31:14,290 --> 00:31:15,690 Let's talk about toeconomics a little bit. 562 00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:20,930 So how does Polygon 2 point O impact the economics of the 563 00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:26,240 network and I guess? Maybe a broader, more high level 564 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:31,840 question is here is how does Polygon make money and you know, 565 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,200 fund itself as a chain and as an ecosystem. 566 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,840 Polygon ecosystem basically when we started asthmatic network 567 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,160 that time the plan was to have one single chain even we had not 568 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,680 thought through like you know I mean of course we knew that it 569 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,760 will become a multi chain scenario eventually, but we at 570 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,600 that time the token economics and everything were designed for 571 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:58,910 a single chain. And you know now with this hyper 572 00:31:58,910 --> 00:32:01,190 block chainized world that we are looking at like you know in 573 00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:04,550 next 1 1/2, two years, I feel that there will be hundreds and 574 00:32:04,550 --> 00:32:06,910 hundreds of these chain. They are already hundreds and 575 00:32:06,910 --> 00:32:11,870 they will keep on growing like this and the token actually 576 00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:16,110 should reflect that ecosystem. So how we have you know like 577 00:32:16,110 --> 00:32:19,750 what we call pole token which is the you know, upgradation of 578 00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:21,110 magic token. It's not a new token. 579 00:32:21,410 --> 00:32:25,050 Magic token will simply upgrade into poll token and you know we 580 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:27,170 call it like this third generation hyper productive 581 00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:29,410 token. Why why we call it all that is 582 00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:32,850 that you know it started with BTC like for example BTC. 583 00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:37,250 As a BTC holder you cannot do anything with BTC, you can't 584 00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:39,970 stake it in the network. You can't provide the security 585 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:43,370 to the network With that this. This was chain with Ethereum 586 00:32:43,770 --> 00:32:47,170 where ethereum as a token like you know now you can stake in 587 00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:50,770 the network try to provide the the security into the network. 588 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,760 And you know you can earn the yield on that and the kind of 589 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,840 token Polygon is is becoming and we believe that you know many of 590 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,160 these infrastructure protocols will become like this is the 591 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,040 third generation token wherein you can not only validate on one 592 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,520 chain you can validate on hundreds and others chain, you 593 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,000 can stake once and validate on multiple multiple chains kind of 594 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,920 like the you know we call it multi staking mechanism not like 595 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,240 restaking but multi stake like one place your circuit stake 596 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,330 then you run multiple chain. So that's one part. 597 00:33:21,530 --> 00:33:24,450 So not only you can validate on multiple chains, you can also 598 00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:27,530 you can you can also provide different kind of roles. 599 00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:31,050 So you can provide definitely a validator or sequencer role, but 600 00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:33,130 you can also provide a prover role, right? 601 00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:35,330 Like you know, eventually we intend to have a prover layer, 602 00:33:35,570 --> 00:33:39,690 you can also provide a data availability layer wherein you, 603 00:33:39,890 --> 00:33:41,730 you know provide data availability to different 604 00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:44,330 different chains. And then finally you can also 605 00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:46,730 play a role in this aggregator layer where you become an 606 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:49,410 aggregator and you know because this layer also will have to be 607 00:33:49,410 --> 00:33:52,990 decent like. So you know these four different 608 00:33:52,990 --> 00:33:56,990 different roles on this one. How you know this becomes a 609 00:33:56,990 --> 00:33:59,390 sustainable effort like how Polygon makes money South. 610 00:33:59,550 --> 00:34:02,510 This Polygon is a is supposed to be a open decentralized 611 00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:04,830 protocol. So this doesn't have a revenue 612 00:34:05,390 --> 00:34:09,630 per say, right? But with poll token what we have 613 00:34:09,630 --> 00:34:14,830 proposed is we have proposed 1% inflation per year which is like 614 00:34:14,830 --> 00:34:18,110 you know almost like Ethereum kind of inflation and less than 615 00:34:18,110 --> 00:34:20,350 bit condition. Which goes to the validators, 616 00:34:20,350 --> 00:34:23,270 like all the validators who are validating they will get this 617 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:25,750 particular part of the the inflation. 618 00:34:25,949 --> 00:34:30,830 But second part is that the the second part is the ecosystem 619 00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:33,110 growth tragedy or something like that. 620 00:34:33,110 --> 00:34:36,790 So for that we have proposed for next 10 years or community can 621 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:39,949 decide 2% for five years or 1% for 10 years or whatever. 622 00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:43,469 We have decided that, you know, there will be 1% token tragedy, 623 00:34:43,590 --> 00:34:48,590 token inflation which will be used to grow the ecosystem back. 624 00:34:49,150 --> 00:34:52,790 And eventually there can be mechanisms where validators 625 00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:55,670 actually donate some part of their transaction fees, or 626 00:34:55,670 --> 00:34:57,190 whoever is making any kind of revenue. 627 00:34:57,190 --> 00:35:00,470 Everybody donate, but there is no way to force. 628 00:35:00,830 --> 00:35:04,630 That fees as of now like at least we are not clear right now 629 00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:08,470 how we can force or like the net it can be built into the 630 00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:11,550 protocol where everybody has to do it and in future like you 631 00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:13,150 know. If it becomes exploitative, you 632 00:35:13,150 --> 00:35:15,790 are taking 10%. The validators can simply say we 633 00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:18,310 are hard forking and we don't want to pay this 10% transaction 634 00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:21,350 fees, right? So right now that's the only way 635 00:35:21,350 --> 00:35:24,270 that there is this inflation for the growth of the protocol. 636 00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:29,030 But in future there can be some donation mechanisms also where 637 00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:31,750 validators will donate all the revenue, makers will donate to 638 00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:34,430 the ecosystem. But we will, you know, for 10 639 00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:37,030 years, we believe that this infrastructure walls are going 640 00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:39,470 to stay for next three to five more years Max. 641 00:35:39,630 --> 00:35:42,070 It's almost kind of over. It's very hard for new 642 00:35:42,070 --> 00:35:44,790 infrastructure players to now come and, you know, start a 643 00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:47,650 chain ecosystem from day zero. You know, in three. 644 00:35:47,650 --> 00:35:50,610 To five years they are going to be settled and in those three to 645 00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:53,170 five years we are going to, you know, we believe that this 646 00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:56,130 ecosystem tragedy is good enough and post that it can become a 647 00:35:56,130 --> 00:36:03,010 fully community run non, you know, non single party or non 648 00:36:03,290 --> 00:36:07,730 you know kind of incentivized growth just like we see Ethereum 649 00:36:07,730 --> 00:36:10,490 is almost reaching that there's only one network Bitcoin, which 650 00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:12,650 is able to do this. Ethereum also like you know, 651 00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:15,690 Foundation has to spend like I think eighteen $100 million as 652 00:36:15,690 --> 00:36:18,850 per their last report. To grow the ecosystem. 653 00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:22,370 But eventually like in in 3-4 years, I think Ethereum will 654 00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:23,890 reach the place. Where they don't have to spend 655 00:36:23,890 --> 00:36:27,570 any money as foundation. Same we also believe that in 5-6 656 00:36:27,570 --> 00:36:30,610 years Polygon or 10 years it will reach that place. 657 00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:35,930 What will the staking ecosystem look like for Polygon in the 658 00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:38,050 future? So basically currently there's a 659 00:36:38,050 --> 00:36:41,120 set of 100 validators. And there's an application to 660 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,040 kind of become a validator and there's like some checks and 661 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,840 stuff, right. So is that gonna be 662 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,960 decentralized, Is that gonna be opened up? 663 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,880 Yes, absolutely. So currently all these 664 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,120 validators are not Polygon validators, they are Polygon POS 665 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,280 validator. They only validate Polygon PSTN. 666 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,360 But now we have multiple chains and what we are going to do is 667 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,800 we have, we have, we call it staking hub. 668 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,680 So the staking hub will be will live on Ethereum. 669 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,520 So you own magic tokens, you stake on Etherea and then once 670 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,750 you have stayed. Your tokens into the network. 671 00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:14,630 Now you can subscribe to different different kind of 672 00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:16,030 chains. So you can subscribe to Polygon 673 00:37:16,030 --> 00:37:20,030 POS, you can subscribe to when ZK EDM becomes decentralized or 674 00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:23,390 ion exchange at this and that. So all those kind of sticking 675 00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:28,550 logic and mechanism can happen on on Ethereum for you. 676 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:31,310 So that's how it will look like. It will be a permission less 677 00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:33,110 ecosystem. Anybody who has any magic they 678 00:37:33,110 --> 00:37:36,590 can stick, and then they can choose to validate on any chain 679 00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:40,070 where they can. On their transactions, it's very 680 00:37:40,070 --> 00:37:43,190 simple and very open and permission permissionless cool 681 00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:46,030 and this mighty staking. I mean, as you said, it sounds 682 00:37:46,030 --> 00:37:50,710 pretty similar to restaking, and restaking's been somewhat 683 00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:55,230 contentious in the Ethereum Twitterverse over the last year 684 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:59,390 or so, with people claiming that it kind of overloads the 685 00:37:59,390 --> 00:38:02,750 consensus. Are you worried at all for a 686 00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:05,310 Polygon that similar things might happen? 687 00:38:06,590 --> 00:38:09,990 I think like the the bigger problem with the current risk 688 00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:12,710 taking mechanism like Eigen layer and and things like that 689 00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:15,590 on a TDM is that it's extra protocol, it's not a part of the 690 00:38:15,590 --> 00:38:18,590 protocol itself, right. So it introduces a lot of 691 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:22,910 additional kind of risks into the system which where the 692 00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:25,590 system or the base system can lose control of. 693 00:38:25,590 --> 00:38:28,670 If the larger amount of economic value is coming from these 694 00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:32,390 networks, you know it can create very crazy scenarios where you 695 00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:35,350 know the protocol loses. It goes out of hand for the base 696 00:38:35,350 --> 00:38:37,730 protocol. In case of Polygon it is a part, 697 00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:40,250 it's an enshrined risk taking like you know you can think of 698 00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:43,690 it like that. So the protocol can enforce any 699 00:38:43,690 --> 00:38:46,850 kind of socio economic mechanisms like slashing and all 700 00:38:46,850 --> 00:38:50,930 that at 1:00 central place in the protocol itself. 701 00:38:50,930 --> 00:38:52,690 So it's that's why it's very different. 702 00:38:52,690 --> 00:38:55,770 It's like enshrined risk taking in a way if you have to say 703 00:38:55,770 --> 00:38:57,770 that. So where we believe is like you 704 00:38:57,770 --> 00:39:01,250 know it's fairly much more secure than than the extra 705 00:39:01,250 --> 00:39:05,010 protocol. These take, I like to talk about 706 00:39:05,770 --> 00:39:07,410 the protocol architecture a little bit. 707 00:39:07,690 --> 00:39:11,450 So in your documentation you have this staking layer, the 708 00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:13,610 interop layer, the execution and improving layer. 709 00:39:13,930 --> 00:39:16,370 We haven't really talked about interop so much yet. 710 00:39:16,370 --> 00:39:20,450 So can you tell us how interoperability will happen 711 00:39:21,050 --> 00:39:23,370 between applications in the Polygon ecosystem? 712 00:39:23,370 --> 00:39:25,050 Talk a little bit more about the protocols there. 713 00:39:25,410 --> 00:39:29,170 And I'd like to after that, talk a little bit more about 714 00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:32,610 interoperability in the broader sense in terms of connecting 715 00:39:32,610 --> 00:39:35,870 Polygon to other ecosystems. So yeah, maybe starting with the 716 00:39:36,270 --> 00:39:39,710 interop layer within Polygon and broadening it out a little bit 717 00:39:40,510 --> 00:39:42,790 outside the ecosystem. Absolutely. 718 00:39:42,830 --> 00:39:46,950 So I actually you know use this word aggregated layer before 719 00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:50,070 like interop layer is actually that aggregated layer only which 720 00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:53,270 I was explaining that you know all these chains currently and 721 00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:56,550 this is already built out today. So all the chains who are using 722 00:39:56,550 --> 00:40:00,030 Polygon provers, they can connect to Poly Ethereum and we 723 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:03,470 call it LXLY bridge. So you can move from any chain 724 00:40:03,470 --> 00:40:07,030 to any chain once you have submitted your ZK proof without 725 00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:09,670 coming back to Ethereum like you, you can directly jump from 726 00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:13,190 one chain to another because you know there is a master smart 727 00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:17,430 contract on Ethereum with master bridge contract where all the 728 00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:19,150 individual chain bridges are connected. 729 00:40:19,150 --> 00:40:22,230 So if you are moving something and you have put in a proof, you 730 00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:24,830 can actually directly move the value across the chains. 731 00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:29,350 But then this actually chain, this layer exists on Ethereum 732 00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:32,710 like currently LXL by bridge which is very costly because all 733 00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:34,990 the chains have to put their proofs back on Ethereum and 734 00:40:34,990 --> 00:40:38,630 which is you know which can't scale beyond let's say 10/20/50 735 00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:42,190 chains because it will become prohibitively expensive or very 736 00:40:42,190 --> 00:40:45,950 slow to move funds around. So that's why we are introducing 737 00:40:45,950 --> 00:40:49,470 this interop layer or aggregator layer we call it, where all the 738 00:40:49,470 --> 00:40:53,190 chains can submit their proofs back on this aggregator layer. 739 00:40:53,550 --> 00:40:56,230 And this aggregator layer combines all the proofs and just 740 00:40:56,230 --> 00:41:00,070 puts 1 recursively combines 1 ZK proof, puts that ZK proof on 741 00:41:00,070 --> 00:41:02,350 this one. So each of these chains are 742 00:41:02,350 --> 00:41:04,590 still like layer twos, they are directly connected. 743 00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:07,190 Once your proof has been included in Ethereum, you can 744 00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:12,110 move your value from your chain to Ethereum or your chain to any 745 00:41:12,110 --> 00:41:14,150 other chain in this aggregated layer, right? 746 00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:17,630 So the value can move freely without any need any of any 747 00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:20,910 external bridges. And as I was saying that because 748 00:41:21,110 --> 00:41:24,150 of this aggregated layer, you can now prove much faster 749 00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:28,030 because this layer will be much, you know, kind of cheaper. 750 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,120 So you can prove every 10 seconds to this layer, this 751 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,520 combines and puts up proof back on Ethereum. 752 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,880 But within those 10 seconds, all the chains have a kind of a 753 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,160 partial proof of your ZK, right. Even though your proof has not 754 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,120 been submitted to Ethereum right now in those 10 seconds, but you 755 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,200 know, you know that this proof is here and the chain has 756 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,520 provided A valid proof or whatever that chain is. 757 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:54,000 So you can have this interoperability, very fast, 758 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,240 Interoperability 10 to 22nd interoperability between these 759 00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,480 chains. So that's where we believe that 760 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,680 the value can move around and across chains. 761 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,160 And notably you can have this level of interoperability also 762 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,600 between lower and higher security chains, right, 763 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,800 depending on kind of where the, how the data availability is 764 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,480 handled for each of these chains because each of them is going to 765 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:22,920 host a ZK proof to this intermediate layer. 766 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:29,190 So do you foresee a future where kind of depths will kind of 767 00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:33,990 separate out components that are high security and components 768 00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:37,990 that are low security and kind of build depths that live 769 00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:44,150 partially on a high security roll up and partially on 770 00:42:44,310 --> 00:42:47,310 ability. I think like you know that kind 771 00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:52,870 of complexity going on to the developers is very kind of seems 772 00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:58,260 like unlikely. Like I feel that eventually you 773 00:42:58,260 --> 00:43:01,980 will have fair enough data availability, you know, kind of 774 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,700 I would not say global chains, but kind of clusters where you 775 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:09,020 can have good enough data availability and everybody. 776 00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:11,740 Like that's why I was telling you that we don't believe in a 777 00:43:11,740 --> 00:43:14,980 single data availability layer. But you know essentially with 778 00:43:14,980 --> 00:43:18,220 the same sticking up, somebody can actually launch a shared 779 00:43:18,220 --> 00:43:21,940 data availability chain right? Which is basically 5 like 100 780 00:43:21,940 --> 00:43:25,970 people come in, you have a descent of data availability and 781 00:43:25,970 --> 00:43:30,090 then people are sharing. But also this will be this cross 782 00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:36,210 chain value transfer will also you know will also be governed 783 00:43:36,210 --> 00:43:41,050 by the individual sequencers of a particular chain like you know 784 00:43:41,090 --> 00:43:43,690 they like users do not need to know about it, apps do not need 785 00:43:43,690 --> 00:43:46,690 to know about it. If I am an app which has a off 786 00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:48,890 chain data availability with one single sequencer. 787 00:43:49,210 --> 00:43:54,350 I know that the ZK, EVM public chains validators are not going 788 00:43:54,350 --> 00:43:57,590 to trust my value and they are going to wait for my transaction 789 00:43:57,590 --> 00:44:01,590 to go on ethereum proof to go on ethereum and only then you know 790 00:44:01,590 --> 00:44:04,350 take my transactions which are coming in right? 791 00:44:04,350 --> 00:44:07,750 Or for data availability also there will be some other 792 00:44:07,870 --> 00:44:11,670 mechanism so but the base layer of security for everyone is that 793 00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:13,550 ZK proof. So you are not cheating on the 794 00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:16,710 ZK proof. All you can do is for some users 795 00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:19,430 you can try to you can hide the data and do all the kind of 796 00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:22,880 stuff right? But for that those users that 797 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,840 the freedom is with the user, right, Like the users who are 798 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,560 are willing to rely on the token, right. 799 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,480 Let's say there is a game chain and that chain has one single 800 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,440 data availability provider and you have $10 million on that 801 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,480 chain which you are now bridging and you sold to someone else. 802 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,280 So the other person who bought that token, right, that person 803 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,440 is relying on some level or relying on some level of trust 804 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,760 on your chain that because he's going to, when he's going to 805 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,460 claim he is going to come to this gain chain and ask for 806 00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:54,220 those $10 million. So I think the free markets 807 00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:56,780 will, you know, generally tend to take care of these things 808 00:44:56,780 --> 00:45:00,820 more because a particular chain, a particular app will not grow 809 00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:03,860 beyond a certain point unless they decentralize their data 810 00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:06,380 availability bit more. Their communities will put 811 00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:09,580 pressure on them that you know, this is this is like not a 812 00:45:09,580 --> 00:45:11,980 secure chain and all that. And they will fail to capture 813 00:45:11,980 --> 00:45:15,620 more and more value on that on that chain and they will have 814 00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:17,860 to, you know decentralize their data availability. 815 00:45:18,210 --> 00:45:19,850 But I think for data availability there will be 816 00:45:19,930 --> 00:45:22,210 multiple multiple avenues for people to put. 817 00:45:22,570 --> 00:45:27,010 And you know, L2 Beats and these kind of like, you know, catalogs 818 00:45:27,010 --> 00:45:31,090 will provide you decent enough, you know, a kind of security on 819 00:45:31,090 --> 00:45:32,690 the data availability side of things. 820 00:45:32,890 --> 00:45:35,370 Like I feel like for example once Ethereum has this 821 00:45:35,370 --> 00:45:40,050 availability like who's stopping Nas's chain also to add 4844 to 822 00:45:40,050 --> 00:45:44,700 that right that with 130,000 van liters for a lot of chains they 823 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,180 will use simply Nosys chain as data availability or people will 824 00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:49,820 launch layer tools or Nosys chain data ability and. 825 00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:53,300 You know it will be on the users to trust that particular how 826 00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:54,900 much to trust on that particular chain. 827 00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:58,420 So for us interoperability for us the base layer is that Zika 828 00:45:58,420 --> 00:46:01,900 proving and then beyond that its we leave it to the free market 829 00:46:02,260 --> 00:46:06,380 and you know other kind of social games to solve unless 830 00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:10,180 something in data availability, some big explosion happens where 831 00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:13,260 you have data availability layer tools and things like that then 832 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:19,440 then we can we can see. So you were in Paris during ACC 833 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,840 week and you attended All Smoke on and and also modular summit. 834 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,680 So you know my question is here. You know what? 835 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:29,880 Was the purpose. What was your purpose for 836 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,640 attending these summits? And you know what, What kind of 837 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,000 I didn't see your target osmocon unfortunately, and I was like 838 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,200 looking for it on YouTube, but I couldn't find it. 839 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,480 But yeah, curious like how you see Polygon. 840 00:46:42,050 --> 00:46:45,970 You know interacting with these other ecosystems and what is the 841 00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:49,810 role you know like you you know Polygon 2.0 build itself is 842 00:46:49,810 --> 00:46:52,850 wanted to be the value layer for the Internet that you know when 843 00:46:52,850 --> 00:46:55,850 you when you say anything that wants to be the something it 844 00:46:55,850 --> 00:46:58,890 kind of feels I mean to be I read it as like it is the 845 00:46:58,890 --> 00:47:01,570 definitive thing and all these other things are perhaps going 846 00:47:01,570 --> 00:47:03,570 to you know perish or or not be that important. 847 00:47:03,570 --> 00:47:07,170 So, you know, do you think that there is a role for multiple, 848 00:47:07,490 --> 00:47:10,250 you know, independent layer ones? 849 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:14,440 The remains of state application block chains and how do you see 850 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,440 polygons with interacting with these different ecosystems? 851 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,240 And particularly, I'm quite interested in polygons 852 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,240 interactions with the Cosmos ecosystem and the ecosystem, 853 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,400 yeah. So I think this is a very good 854 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,120 caller. We should not call it the value 855 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,360 layer actually value layer of Internet or we want to call it a 856 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,470 value network or like you know we have to come up with then a 857 00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:40,870 like slightly better name. This is the good color that you 858 00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:45,230 know somebody will think the our vision is that these chains that 859 00:47:45,230 --> 00:47:48,110 we are talking about like you know on top of Ethereum, 860 00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:49,630 Ethereum is the settlement layer. 861 00:47:49,950 --> 00:47:54,950 But then on on the on on this other layer let I'm saying other 862 00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:57,830 layers some of them will be layer twos but many of them 863 00:47:57,830 --> 00:48:02,110 would be sovereign layer ones also like right now in Cosmos 864 00:48:02,110 --> 00:48:05,570 let's say lot of cosmos chains and you know big shout out to 865 00:48:05,570 --> 00:48:09,530 Cosmos community like I I think after Ethereum like I always 866 00:48:09,530 --> 00:48:13,050 feel that if I could actually join some other community being 867 00:48:13,050 --> 00:48:17,890 in web three it will be Cosmos community no doubt And it's it's 868 00:48:17,970 --> 00:48:21,610 it's super decentralized super you know cool and intelligent 869 00:48:21,610 --> 00:48:24,330 people over there. But with Cosmos chains what ends 870 00:48:24,330 --> 00:48:26,610 up happening is that most of these Cosmos chains in 871 00:48:26,610 --> 00:48:29,890 themselves get a lot of traction, but they are still 872 00:48:30,210 --> 00:48:33,210 kind of islands, remote islands of liquidity. 873 00:48:33,250 --> 00:48:38,730 They are not, you know plugged in into the main liquidity layer 874 00:48:38,730 --> 00:48:41,690 of the of of Ethereum where the largest amount of liquidity is 875 00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:44,850 there. So how we see Polygon playing 876 00:48:44,850 --> 00:48:48,650 this rail is this aggregator layer is for example right now 877 00:48:48,650 --> 00:48:54,050 we have ZK proofs where any EVM chains, EVM ZK proof, any EVM 878 00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:56,890 chain can prove back on this aggregator layer. 879 00:48:57,130 --> 00:49:02,500 But we are already you know seeing and helping other teams 880 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:05,980 to build let's say Zika WASM kind of provers, right. 881 00:49:05,980 --> 00:49:09,860 So where you can prove a WASM chain back on the theory right. 882 00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,380 And all of these chains of this aggregative layer then kind of 883 00:49:13,380 --> 00:49:16,780 enables free flow of information, a free flow of 884 00:49:16,980 --> 00:49:19,340 value between these chains whether it's layer ones 885 00:49:19,540 --> 00:49:24,420 sovereign layer ones layer tools, single sequencer, multi 886 00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:28,770 sequencer, own tokens, take whatever it is Polygon just 887 00:49:28,770 --> 00:49:32,370 wants to provide that central layer of that that layer of 888 00:49:32,490 --> 00:49:36,970 value moving across these chains securely in a particular single 889 00:49:36,970 --> 00:49:40,610 standard value approval and a value movement across these 890 00:49:40,610 --> 00:49:44,130 chains. And you know beyond that leave 891 00:49:44,130 --> 00:49:46,730 it on to the free markets. As I said like instead of we 892 00:49:46,730 --> 00:49:49,250 putting in a lot of like this thing, now all the chains should 893 00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:51,690 have magic. Like we don't we don't mandate 894 00:49:51,690 --> 00:49:53,810 on that. We in fact we believe few like 895 00:49:53,810 --> 00:49:57,840 1020 chains will have magic stickers or you know few more 896 00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,880 than that or app chains will have it. 897 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:05,160 But then the larger ecosystem like osmosis, you know a lot of 898 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,600 other like you know cosmos ecosystem, other layer ones 899 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,960 which might be built on war zones and all that. 900 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,520 And right now there is a this thing everybody is trying you 901 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,120 know all the layer ones realize that they are in the remote 902 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,800 islands of liquidity. They need to be kind of layer 903 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,000 twos. We don't we believe that you 904 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,400 know they don't even need to be layer twos. 905 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,580 They just need to settle on to its idiom and and you know like 906 00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:28,260 that's good enough for their liquidity. 907 00:50:28,260 --> 00:50:30,980 Like basically this kind of bridging provides them a 908 00:50:30,980 --> 00:50:33,500 trustless bridge ZK bridge to ethereal right. 909 00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:37,460 And after that, they have their own sovereignty and they they 910 00:50:37,460 --> 00:50:39,820 can keep growing their ecosystem as they want to grow. 911 00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:43,900 But the value can move to and fro a very frequently around 912 00:50:44,620 --> 00:50:46,980 them. So this idea that everything 913 00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:50,300 should sell to Ethereum, I mean, it makes sense I think. 914 00:50:51,390 --> 00:50:55,270 On the face of it, but you know, I I think that there's there's 915 00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:58,310 also a case to be made that. You know if. 916 00:50:58,790 --> 00:51:04,310 If blockchains are going to secure most of the value in, you 917 00:51:04,310 --> 00:51:08,750 know, the economy, that resiliency means also having 918 00:51:08,830 --> 00:51:14,070 other other things to settle on, right? 919 00:51:14,070 --> 00:51:15,710 Like other blockchains to settle on. 920 00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:18,830 And obviously, like Bitcoin and Etherium have the most security 921 00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:22,880 and are. Are the the largest say like 922 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,240 points to which people can settle. 923 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,160 Do you think that this argument makes sense so that that we need 924 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,520 more kind of layer one layers of state in order to have a more 925 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:42,600 robust and and secure world and global financial system running 926 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:47,110 on blockchains. See conceptually obviously you 927 00:51:47,110 --> 00:51:50,270 know you need decentralization on decentralization itself 928 00:51:50,310 --> 00:51:52,030 right? Like your resiliency like 929 00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:55,950 actually the whole purpose of Ethereum blockchain or the 930 00:51:56,030 --> 00:51:59,190 Bitcoin blockchain to have be decentralizes that then you do 931 00:51:59,190 --> 00:52:01,070 not have to rely on one single party. 932 00:52:01,070 --> 00:52:04,350 So when you are even even though we are saying Ethereum as a 933 00:52:04,350 --> 00:52:08,470 collective one layer but it is actually a layer which is highly 934 00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:10,710 highly decentralized. Same case with with Bitcoin. 935 00:52:10,910 --> 00:52:15,930 But I feel that how the world or the in practicality how it plays 936 00:52:15,930 --> 00:52:19,450 out is they will be always in in today's financial world also 937 00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:24,250 like U.S. dollar is the base layer of value right largely but 938 00:52:24,250 --> 00:52:28,250 then let's say 7080% but then you there, there, there other 939 00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:33,210 value layers also like you know gold, other some of the other 940 00:52:33,210 --> 00:52:36,170 sovereign currencies and all that they also have value. 941 00:52:36,170 --> 00:52:38,890 People trust some of their value, but then if you see 942 00:52:39,170 --> 00:52:43,270 because finance has this great, like I know there's great saying 943 00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:46,470 that liquidity begets liquidity, especially in the larger and 944 00:52:46,470 --> 00:52:50,150 larger globalized world. You need free flowing liquidity, 945 00:52:51,230 --> 00:52:55,270 you know across these applications or you know across 946 00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:59,670 the world across the economies. And I think due to that, you 947 00:52:59,670 --> 00:53:03,510 know, the network effects of a single liquid layer become 948 00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:06,910 larger and larger. So even though I can say that 949 00:53:06,910 --> 00:53:10,030 yes, there will be like it's OK to have other layers where the 950 00:53:10,030 --> 00:53:11,990 value will be trusted and will exist. 951 00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:16,510 But I think the large percentage of that will still be governed 952 00:53:16,510 --> 00:53:19,830 by one single layer. And which seems to be like right 953 00:53:19,830 --> 00:53:23,390 now, like unless like, let's say Bitcoin tomorrow comes up with a 954 00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:27,430 mechanism where now you can have validity proofs on Bitcoin and 955 00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:30,310 now you can settle and. As of today, like Bitcoin is 956 00:53:30,310 --> 00:53:33,470 like still much bigger than Ethereum in terms of his global 957 00:53:33,470 --> 00:53:37,600 brand and all that, then that might be a formidable competitor 958 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,280 for Ethereum. But otherwise, like I find it 959 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,760 really, really hard for any other layer to become that 960 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,400 settlement layer. Fringe settlement layers, sure, 961 00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:50,240 but main settlement layer, I think it's like the Pareto rule. 962 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,600 One of them will have the largest share, which is 963 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,160 Ethereal. Cool. 964 00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,440 Seb, you don't like hearing this, right? 965 00:54:01,590 --> 00:54:02,910 No I think this makes total sense. 966 00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:06,750 I I think it's like a it's a perfectly you know sound like 967 00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:09,510 yeah I think I think do things do aggregate I think like 968 00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:12,470 aggregation theory you know exists also in watch chains and 969 00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:17,510 and certainly there's going to be aggregation you know to to 970 00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:19,950 the largest set of hilarious whether that's between 971 00:54:19,950 --> 00:54:24,470 Erythereum and that they're much like you know I do like this 972 00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:27,030 nation state idea and you know study talks about there's a lot 973 00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:29,830 to like you blushing in the context of something like NATO. 974 00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:34,100 I think one one thing I would love to see happen is this idea 975 00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:37,980 of shared security also expanding outside of like what's 976 00:54:37,980 --> 00:54:41,700 currently you know a very kind of small network of chains 977 00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:46,060 within Cosmos to to you know different ecosystems right. 978 00:54:46,060 --> 00:54:49,540 We're like different ecosystems are also layer ones are also 979 00:54:49,540 --> 00:54:51,900 securing each other in this NATO like fashion. 980 00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:55,340 And I know that we're very far away from that happening, but I 981 00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:58,500 think it's like a lot of goal to to want to move towards. 982 00:55:00,370 --> 00:55:02,970 I want to bring this kind of full circle. 983 00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:06,610 In the very beginning you kind of you talked about kind of the 984 00:55:06,610 --> 00:55:11,050 thing that blockchains kind of lower the price of and you said 985 00:55:11,050 --> 00:55:15,770 you think it's democracy. So tell us what kind of 986 00:55:15,770 --> 00:55:20,330 applications you foresee having actual, actual, you know, know, 987 00:55:20,330 --> 00:55:24,610 me users on blockchains in the, you know, coming years. 988 00:55:24,610 --> 00:55:28,250 So what kind of things in the future will settle on 989 00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:32,770 blockchains and why? I think like you know for the 990 00:55:32,770 --> 00:55:36,810 next three to five years you will. 991 00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:41,850 You will still see blockchain largely confined to the 992 00:55:41,850 --> 00:55:45,010 financial sector only. But I also definitely believe 993 00:55:45,010 --> 00:55:49,290 that this is the best financial rails that you know humanity has 994 00:55:49,290 --> 00:55:55,090 ever seen and eventually most of if not all of finance will move 995 00:55:55,090 --> 00:55:58,530 on to these rails. So I personally feel that 996 00:55:58,530 --> 00:56:04,730 initially the the the use cases where they require value to be 997 00:56:04,730 --> 00:56:08,850 transacted and value to be held, shared, exchanged. 998 00:56:09,130 --> 00:56:13,010 These cases you know will be more So obviously D5 is a is a 999 00:56:13,010 --> 00:56:16,210 segment which is automatically we understand but then for 1000 00:56:16,210 --> 00:56:20,010 example gaming also gaming also like these days gaming is like 1001 00:56:20,010 --> 00:56:25,320 one like what's the number like I think one $50 billion revenue 1002 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,720 or something like that in US itself. 1003 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:29,520 Like there's a Netflix documentary which talks about 1004 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,320 like you know the gaming in US is bigger than Hollywood 1005 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,560 basketball, NBA, NFL, NHL everything combined, right. 1006 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,120 So and these are like digital only things. 1007 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,680 So and value exists over there like people transact billions 1008 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,280 and billions of dollars in value over there. 1009 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,120 So they definitely it makes much more sense. 1010 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:56,600 Similarly, only one or few use cases that I feel you know for 1011 00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,400 blockchain right now have started emerging is maybe some 1012 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,080 form of this. You know your social network use 1013 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,200 cases, right, like where because people are as I said at the in 1014 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,600 the starting of the program that what blockchain reduces the 1015 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,680 reduce the cost of, they reduce the cost of freedom, they reduce 1016 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,520 the cost of democracy. And you know for these social 1017 00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:23,240 networks we definitely, you know these are kind of social network 1018 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,840 apps are kind of the peak of the applications which need this 1019 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,880 freedom and democracy, you know starting now actually. 1020 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,600 So I feel that that could be 1 segment also apart from D Phi 1021 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,640 and gaming and other value related use cases like Rwas like 1022 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,280 when we say D Phi is like kind of the niche finance but then? 1023 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,730 The RWA or traditional finance and you know some of the people 1024 00:57:48,170 --> 00:57:51,410 you know in the in the canto space like their leaders Scott 1025 00:57:51,410 --> 00:57:55,770 Lewis you know is coming up with more like you know nice nicer 1026 00:57:55,770 --> 00:57:58,370 names for this which attracts this traditional finance into 1027 00:57:58,370 --> 00:58:00,530 this. But basically that like you 1028 00:58:00,530 --> 00:58:04,570 know, defy gaming RWA or traditional finance use cases. 1029 00:58:05,090 --> 00:58:08,210 And you know, even stock markets, you know, moving over 1030 00:58:08,210 --> 00:58:10,370 to. This thing like right now we 1031 00:58:10,370 --> 00:58:12,730 have these stocks and all that. Like there is a large amount of 1032 00:58:12,730 --> 00:58:15,650 management goes in the background for clearing houses 1033 00:58:15,650 --> 00:58:19,530 and all that blockchain actually obliterate most of that you know 1034 00:58:19,530 --> 00:58:24,210 use cases because you you are actually settling real time to 1035 00:58:24,210 --> 00:58:28,690 the end user itself so so that plus like the only non financial 1036 00:58:28,690 --> 00:58:32,370 use cases I am seeing is is in the social side so those would. 1037 00:58:32,370 --> 00:58:34,890 Be the larger like kind of focused applications. 1038 00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:38,650 Currently one more thing is basically Nft's. 1039 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,880 But Nft's, you can argue that they also have value, but I feel 1040 00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,520 that Nft's have a huge, huge potential. 1041 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,760 I'm not talking about art, Nft's and other things. 1042 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,840 Nft's have a huge potential. Basic PFP or some other kind of 1043 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:56,800 Nfp's have huge potential to get to serve brands because I I talk 1044 00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:58,840 about this. Term or like, you know, I came 1045 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,960 up with this term called effective eat, like EAP, 1046 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,120 effective attention time, right. And for brand, it's super 1047 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,280 important right now. Brands are like, you know, 1048 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,170 fighting for this. Users attention span, right. 1049 00:59:11,170 --> 00:59:15,210 So you know active attention span for them for brands is 1050 00:59:15,210 --> 00:59:19,050 super important and that is where I feel that these Nft's 1051 00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:22,010 can play a very big role like Starbucks Nft's that you see 1052 00:59:22,370 --> 00:59:25,570 Reddit is doing very well in the FTS are many, many brands will 1053 00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:29,650 will utilize Nft's to. You know, kind of have brand 1054 00:59:29,650 --> 00:59:32,490 campaigns which brings them more attention. 1055 00:59:32,850 --> 00:59:34,690 So these are the only few use cases. 1056 00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:37,900 Accept finance I have, but in finance whatever you see in 1057 00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:42,420 finance that that's a huge huge. Market that sooner or later 1058 00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:46,460 should you know migrate toward block in based financial wins. 1059 00:59:46,780 --> 00:59:52,020 What needs to happen for the in order for for that to actually 1060 00:59:52,260 --> 00:59:54,660 take place? Because I totally agree that 1061 00:59:54,660 --> 00:59:59,580 kind of these are the use cases where blockchain rates 100% make 1062 00:59:59,900 --> 01:00:01,540 make sense. I mean we're all on Twitter. 1063 01:00:01,540 --> 01:00:03,940 We all know it's kind of not gotten better. 1064 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:09,240 So yeah, I mean, I totally agree that basically this would make 1065 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,960 sense, but why isn't it happening at scale, right? 1066 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,840 That means basically if you look at actual users in the 1067 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,920 ecosystem, it's very few, if any. 1068 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,840 So basically it's most of most of us, we're kind of dogfooding 1069 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,840 stuff, but no one's kind of you know in earnest move to lens or 1070 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,540 anything. What needs to happen for that is 1071 01:00:32,540 --> 01:00:36,460 basically like we keep saying and at the start of the the 1072 01:00:36,460 --> 01:00:39,020 recording also we are saying and this is becoming very popular 1073 01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:41,820 amongst the VC is that oh that three has a lot of 1074 01:00:41,820 --> 01:00:44,620 infrastructure but then not many apps. 1075 01:00:44,740 --> 01:00:47,780 But I would argue against that. I don't think that we have 1076 01:00:49,820 --> 01:00:54,460 actual deterministic scaling infrastructure for blockchains 1077 01:00:54,460 --> 01:00:57,020 as of yet. We have these separate separate 1078 01:00:57,020 --> 01:00:58,900 blockchains today. You can spin up hundred of 1079 01:00:58,900 --> 01:01:01,890 blocks, hundreds of blockchains. But then the fundamental point 1080 01:01:02,090 --> 01:01:05,610 is having that aggregated liquidity or aggregated like you 1081 01:01:05,610 --> 01:01:09,250 know value which then starts getting fragmented and each of 1082 01:01:09,250 --> 01:01:12,890 these chains or each of these block spaces are ineffective, 1083 01:01:14,250 --> 01:01:17,050 you know end up becoming ineffective databases where the 1084 01:01:17,050 --> 01:01:18,890 security assumptions are also separate. 1085 01:01:18,890 --> 01:01:22,690 So what needs to happen according to me is all these 1086 01:01:22,690 --> 01:01:26,450 value should have a place to aggregate with each other like 1087 01:01:26,450 --> 01:01:27,650 you know. All the value should be 1088 01:01:27,650 --> 01:01:31,320 aggregated with each other across the chains and the 1089 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,400 security assumptions need to go down like security assumption 1090 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,920 you should be have, you should be having one single security 1091 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:41,160 assumption across all the chains that you know the value cannot 1092 01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,480 be stolen from me and execution cannot be done in a wrong way. 1093 01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,520 And I think and then I think slightly more slight more thing 1094 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,600 is basically smart contract security. 1095 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,960 Like you know, we know we cannot afford these many hacks that we 1096 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,280 go through, but I think that is a kind of a learning cycle that 1097 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,640 you know this whole space is going, right. 1098 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:06,680 That's why Ethereums, you know ZK, EDM or Solidity, you know 1099 01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,440 network effects are also very strong because those smart 1100 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,000 contracts have gone through years and years and years of 1101 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,200 these hacks and battle testing. Any new blockchain you will 1102 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,120 bring in, any new blockchain programming language you will 1103 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,880 bring in, they also have to go through this and these network 1104 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,960 effects compound overtime. So I believe that you know, more 1105 01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,680 security or smart contracts, but yeah, like aggregated liquidity, 1106 01:02:28,110 --> 01:02:29,870 single security zones for everything. 1107 01:02:29,870 --> 01:02:35,350 It should feel like one single block space and more robust 1108 01:02:35,350 --> 01:02:40,590 smart metrics. So Polygon is probably one of 1109 01:02:40,590 --> 01:02:44,630 the ecosystems in blockchain that has really strong business 1110 01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:49,670 development and that has been a really big advantage in terms of 1111 01:02:50,110 --> 01:02:56,400 getting contracts and sort of. Getting institutional and larger 1112 01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,120 brands to come and use the platform, that's not the case in 1113 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:00,440 every ecosystem. And I think there's like a 1114 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,520 gradient of week of you know, kind of centralized coordinated 1115 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,720 business development and really very decentralized uncoordinated 1116 01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,800 business development. And I would put Polygon on one 1117 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,320 end of that and Cosmos and the Interchain on the other. 1118 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,360 And you know Avalanche falls in there somewhere. 1119 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,640 You know, like Solana and and Etherium also do to some extent 1120 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:25,350 in terms of. Pushing technology forward and 1121 01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:30,830 having the ability to like build tech that is robust over the 1122 01:03:30,830 --> 01:03:34,350 long term, you know which approach do you think Will will 1123 01:03:34,750 --> 01:03:37,310 is likely to win out. And you know one example, I 1124 01:03:37,310 --> 01:03:41,390 think like one example for the decentralized, more 1125 01:03:41,390 --> 01:03:45,910 decentralized decision making paradigm is Linux right. 1126 01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:49,070 And like Linux has always been a very decentralized government, 1127 01:03:49,070 --> 01:03:51,620 decentralizing is. And the people who are building 1128 01:03:51,620 --> 01:03:54,580 on it and also its governance and and also like the business 1129 01:03:54,580 --> 01:03:57,700 development and it took a really long time. 1130 01:03:57,700 --> 01:04:01,100 But you know, in the end, now after 30 years, like Linux is 1131 01:04:01,100 --> 01:04:03,500 powering most of the world server infrastructure, most of 1132 01:04:03,500 --> 01:04:05,140 the devices we use on a daily basis. 1133 01:04:05,140 --> 01:04:08,140 And I think that wasn't obvious that that would be the case like 1134 01:04:08,140 --> 01:04:10,980 20 years ago. So yeah, in that context, like, 1135 01:04:10,980 --> 01:04:14,620 how do you see that playing out? Yes, I think like you know, 1136 01:04:15,010 --> 01:04:19,730 there are two parts that I can discuss on the Linux thing. 1137 01:04:19,730 --> 01:04:23,290 Like first of all I think Linux technology was always 1138 01:04:24,250 --> 01:04:30,690 decentralized and always like open source which actually you 1139 01:04:30,690 --> 01:04:34,370 know encouraged a lot of smart or the smartest people in the 1140 01:04:34,370 --> 01:04:37,330 world to contribute to the operating system levels whereas 1141 01:04:37,610 --> 01:04:40,170 like some of the other operating systems were very closed source 1142 01:04:40,170 --> 01:04:41,610 so they could never attract the talent. 1143 01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:46,110 In case of blockchain ecosystem the technology that level is 1144 01:04:46,110 --> 01:04:49,390 actually at par because you know even for Polygon though the 1145 01:04:49,390 --> 01:04:51,990 technology is open source and it is becoming more and more open 1146 01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:54,350 source like you know with ZK and all that we are also attracting 1147 01:04:54,350 --> 01:04:56,830 a lot of ZK talent. So I believe that that gets 1148 01:04:56,830 --> 01:05:00,870 compensated over there. But with with, with blockchains 1149 01:05:00,870 --> 01:05:05,750 also if you see that blockchains which had early mover advantage 1150 01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:11,180 like VTC and Ethereum, they kind of survived and you know build 1151 01:05:11,180 --> 01:05:15,020 those network effects, you know in those days because there were 1152 01:05:15,020 --> 01:05:18,020 very few you know, kind of players in the space. 1153 01:05:18,420 --> 01:05:23,740 But then you know now if you see for any blockchain protocol to 1154 01:05:23,740 --> 01:05:28,980 get any meaningful, you know traction on it, right they will, 1155 01:05:29,180 --> 01:05:31,980 they need to have some level of distribution because there's 1156 01:05:31,980 --> 01:05:35,180 just too much noise in the in the ecosystem. 1157 01:05:35,180 --> 01:05:38,010 So you need some level of distribution, but I also keep 1158 01:05:38,010 --> 01:05:41,250 saying to to our team like for example Polygon Labs like which 1159 01:05:41,250 --> 01:05:44,610 is you know one of the largest contributors into this Polygon 1160 01:05:44,610 --> 01:05:47,130 ecosystem now. Although there is a very large 1161 01:05:47,130 --> 01:05:50,130 part like for example. All of these brand, you know 1162 01:05:50,130 --> 01:05:53,170 brands that keep launching on Polygon, not many people realize 1163 01:05:53,170 --> 01:05:57,770 that more than 50% or even 60% of them, we don't even know that 1164 01:05:57,770 --> 01:06:00,090 they were they are going to launch on Polygon, right. 1165 01:06:00,090 --> 01:06:02,210 So is now. It has become like a kind of a 1166 01:06:02,850 --> 01:06:09,080 self propagating machine, but I feel that I keep telling to our 1167 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:13,160 Polygon Labs team also that our eventual goal is to kill 1168 01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:14,440 ourselves. Right. 1169 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,640 Like we have to take it to a place, but we also keep growing 1170 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,800 our, you know, community and organic stuff and all that 1171 01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:22,920 where. Polygon Labs at one point in 1172 01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,200 time cease to exist or remains a very small contributor. 1173 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,480 Maybe. Maybe it still remains a small 1174 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:33,720 contributor 1020% at that and all these models of, you know, 1175 01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,630 these community owned businesses, these are being done 1176 01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:37,910 for the first time in this world. 1177 01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:40,430 Like we don't really know how these community owned businesses 1178 01:06:40,710 --> 01:06:43,070 right now we're talking about infra, but what will happen to 1179 01:06:43,070 --> 01:06:46,070 let's say a social media application right, which comes 1180 01:06:46,070 --> 01:06:47,790 which is a decent as social media application? 1181 01:06:48,110 --> 01:06:53,150 I think they will always have a nucleus like or set of like one 1182 01:06:53,150 --> 01:06:57,030 or two teams which are actually contributing to their core 1183 01:06:57,190 --> 01:06:59,870 development. Like even for Bitcoin you can 1184 01:06:59,870 --> 01:07:02,990 argue that there is a core developer, Bitcoin core dev 1185 01:07:03,630 --> 01:07:05,470 ecosystem. Same case with Ethereum. 1186 01:07:05,810 --> 01:07:08,410 For development and then even for the you, I think your 1187 01:07:08,410 --> 01:07:10,530 question is more directed towards the the business 1188 01:07:10,530 --> 01:07:12,850 development. I think for the application 1189 01:07:12,850 --> 01:07:17,450 layer, you will see that these community owned businesses kind 1190 01:07:17,450 --> 01:07:20,090 of business models will evolve where they will be one or two 1191 01:07:20,090 --> 01:07:24,450 entities in that ecosystem which will contribute to the to the. 1192 01:07:24,450 --> 01:07:29,250 Nucleus of that you know continuous growth and then you 1193 01:07:29,250 --> 01:07:31,570 know the community will be contributing from outside. 1194 01:07:31,610 --> 01:07:34,770 But at least twenty 3040% you will see these teams. 1195 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,400 So that's where like we also don't really know we are also 1196 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,360 playing this that as this ecosystem involves it will be 1197 01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,960 very wrong to say that we have a exact you know playbook that how 1198 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,240 they are going to do. But if you see most of the 1199 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,280 current infrastructure protocols, they are all adopting 1200 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,760 polygons playbook like they all are trying to play something 1201 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,640 similar to what Polygon did while we because slightly being 1202 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,960 ahead of the curve like we are now you know kind of as we say 1203 01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,200 progressive decentralization. So we are kind of. 1204 01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:07,100 Continuously reducing the footprint and increasing the 1205 01:08:07,820 --> 01:08:10,060 organic footprint. But yeah, like, you know, I 1206 01:08:10,060 --> 01:08:14,620 mean, obviously Ethereum and Cosmos and Bitcoin communities 1207 01:08:14,620 --> 01:08:17,740 are super, super. Like organic communities and you 1208 01:08:17,740 --> 01:08:21,779 know for it's a dream come true for any protocol founder to have 1209 01:08:21,779 --> 01:08:25,779 that kind of community and we have to also change a lot like 1210 01:08:25,779 --> 01:08:29,180 see when people say you might have heard also a lot of people 1211 01:08:29,180 --> 01:08:33,060 saying like you know polygons business development ecosystem 1212 01:08:33,060 --> 01:08:35,920 has been very. You know, kind of aggressive or 1213 01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,600 kind of very concerted concentrated and everything. 1214 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:43,080 But then if you see that where Polygon came from like Polygon 1215 01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:47,160 didn't come from this Silicon Valley background like it had no 1216 01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,560 like credibility like people most of for the first 2-3 years 1217 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,120 people considered polygonic scam like because it did an IEO on 1218 01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:55,520 finance and things like that, right. 1219 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:59,319 So, so it had to fight hard. But now you know, we also 1220 01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:01,319 realize that we have to make it more and more. 1221 01:09:01,359 --> 01:09:04,700 Organic and. Community growth and everything. 1222 01:09:17,180 --> 01:09:06,020 Great. And then I think ecosystem as a 1223 01:09:06,020 --> 01:09:11,460 whole is making those changes to become like great communities 1224 01:09:11,460 --> 01:09:15,180 like Cosmos or the. So it's a work in. 1225 01:09:17,460 --> 01:09:18,979 Well, I think that's a great note to end on. 1226 01:09:19,740 --> 01:09:23,540 Sadif, thanks so much for coming back on the show and sharing the 1227 01:09:23,540 --> 01:09:25,340 vision for Polygon. I think it's really, really 1228 01:09:25,340 --> 01:09:26,580 fascinating. And also. 1229 01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:30,870 So impressive, you know the the growth of that ecosystem and 1230 01:09:30,870 --> 01:09:32,470 what you guys have accomplished in the last three years. 1231 01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:36,310 And so I wish you and obviously the Polygon ecosystem lots of 1232 01:09:36,310 --> 01:09:40,310 success and in building out this vision. 1233 01:09:40,390 --> 01:09:43,350 So hopefully we could do this again in the next two or three 1234 01:09:43,350 --> 01:09:44,710 years and Polygon will be even bigger. 1235 01:09:45,550 --> 01:09:47,590 Hopefully yes. Thanks EV. 1236 01:09:48,189 --> 01:09:49,470 Thanks. Thank you. 1237 01:09:52,029 --> 01:09:53,750 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1238 01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:55,710 We release new episodes every week. 1239 01:09:56,440 --> 01:09:59,120 You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, 1240 01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,200 YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 1241 01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,280 And if you have a Google Home or Alexa device, you can tell it. 1242 01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:08,360 To listen to the latest episode of the Epicenter podcast, go to 1243 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,520 epicenter.tv, Subscribe for a full list of places where you 1244 01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:13,760 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 1245 01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,240 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 1246 01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:19,320 inbox as they're released. 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