1
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,500
Welcome to obscenity show, which
talks about the technology 

2
00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:20,900
projects and people driving 
decentralization and blockchain 

3
00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:22,400
Revolution. 
I'm Brian Crane. 

4
00:00:22,700 --> 00:00:25,600
And today I'm speaking with 
Sergei gorbunov. 

5
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,900
He's the co-founder axle. 
Our axler is one of the leading.

6
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,800
Interoperability protocols, like
aiming to kind of make, all of 

7
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,600
the blockchains interoperable or
lots of things. 

8
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,800
Lots of different diverse 
product, protocols, very cool 

9
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,600
project. 
So I'm really excited to dive 

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,500
into that with Sergei. 
Now, before we do that, let's 

11
00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:50,800
briefly go through our sponsors.
So we have first of all, a swap.

12
00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:54,200
So Periscope is a DEX aggregator
on ethereum. 

13
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,500
So that means to Paris off, you 
can access liquidity on various 

14
00:00:58,500 --> 00:00:59,900
different decentralized 
Exchange. 

15
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,600
Is so the protocol automatically
finds the cheapest source of 

16
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,600
language liquidity for you. 
And you know, you can get the 

17
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,600
best price. 
It's also very gas friendly. 

18
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,400
So keeps your transaction costs 
low. 

19
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,100
They also added support recently
for different. 

20
00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:15,800
Evm networks. 
Like Avalanche polygon BSC in 

21
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,400
Phantom. 
And you can also use it directly

22
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,200
from your Ledger life. 
And also, they've started a kind

23
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,200
of doll. 
So if you want to get involved 

24
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,100
in that, you can do that with 
their PSP token. 

25
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,200
Yeah, so, go check that out of 
that. 

26
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:29,800
Pair. 
Soft eyes. 

27
00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,100
Rio and then second sponsor 
course one. 

28
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,400
So proof Stakes becoming like a 
major way of securing 

29
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,100
decentralized networks. 
Lots of different ones including

30
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,400
the one. 
We're going to speak about 

31
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,900
today, axle are so of course, 
one is running, staking 

32
00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,900
infrastructure on lots of 
different networks, allowing you

33
00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:51,000
to earn rewards and contribute 
to network security and doing so

34
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,000
in a secure way. 
So it's with billions of people 

35
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,100
staked on, you know, around 30 
different networks and also 

36
00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:03,700
supporting Institutions in 
participating in this taking 

37
00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:05,900
economy through, you know, white
label nodes. 

38
00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:10,300
So yeah, if you're interested in
staking head over the course 

39
00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:14,200
start one and start u.s. 
Taking training there and then 

40
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,000
before we get started one more 
thing, so my wife has started 

41
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,700
the podcast, it's called 
non-conventional and it's a 

42
00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:27,300
really great. 
They have guests across like 

43
00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:29,400
lots of different domain. 
I was a guest on there. 

44
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,700
I think. 
There's some other crypt 

45
00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:32,900
episodes too, but it's like all 
kinds of things. 

46
00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,300
Also like entrepreneurship, art 
science, Etc. 

47
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,500
So, you can go and check it out 
and let me know what you think. 

48
00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:41,400
So you can find it on 
non-conventional dot show. 

49
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,500
And so with that, let's get 
started, say gay. 

50
00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,600
It's so great to have you 
finally on epicenter. 

51
00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:53,300
Hey Brian, good to be here. 
Pretty excited. 

52
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,500
This is like I have to question 
every voters like directly in 

53
00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:01,000
but maybe you can like take a 
step back a little bit. 

54
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,200
Like, how did you, how did he 
become interested in, you know, 

55
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,600
crypto and blockchain? 
Yeah, so, you know, I think my 

56
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,300
background I played with various
Technologies. 

57
00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:14,900
I think over the years 
originally, I worked in the kind

58
00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:18,200
of software-defined networking 
and just distributed systems. 

59
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,800
And then I wanted to go to grad 
school to study for my 

60
00:03:21,808 --> 00:03:22,900
cryptography. 
Right. 

61
00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:27,400
So I ended up going to MIT to 
work on theoretical cryptography

62
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,900
for a number of years, 
including, you know, lattice 

63
00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,600
based cryptography like function
encryption, like multi-party 

64
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,500
computation, protocols and 
things like that. 

65
00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,800
And then by the end of the grad 
school could have solved a few 

66
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,700
interesting problems. 
I knew that you know, I had 

67
00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:47,600
enough to defend my thesis but 
got a little bit bored, right? 

68
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,400
And was looking for a new space 
and then you set of problems to 

69
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,600
work on. 
And so that's how we started to 

70
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,700
look at the at the Block chains 
and crypto that was around 2014 

71
00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:00,500
2015, kind of pretty early days,
you know, etherium was still in 

72
00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:03,300
the early makings and they were 
figuring out some of the in 

73
00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:08,300
scalability issues and I started
to collaborate with silver 

74
00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:11,400
McAuliffe who was a faculty at 
MIT at the time and some of the 

75
00:04:11,408 --> 00:04:14,000
early designs behind the elgrand
protocol. 

76
00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:18,700
And you know, 2015. 
I finished grad school. 

77
00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:22,100
I went to the University of 
Waterloo for few years, continue

78
00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:26,200
doing research there in systems,
you know, crypto security and 

79
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,000
then after that been kind of 
joined the crypto space 

80
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,600
full-time, right? 
And help to build our grant. 

81
00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,400
We took that to the market, you 
know, two and a half years ago 

82
00:04:34,900 --> 00:04:38,100
and Since then, yeah, it's been 
kind of full time. 

83
00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:39,800
It's, it's an amazing space to 
be in. 

84
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,300
I'm pretty excited to build 
here. 

85
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,700
Yeah, absolutely. 
It is pretty pretty unique 

86
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,100
industry. 
I don't think there's anything 

87
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,100
like it. 
At least I've known heard of 

88
00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:53,900
anything like that. 
So one thing I'm curious about 

89
00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:58,300
it, with our grand Rite. 
You were part of, you know, like

90
00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:03,300
a big block chain project, I big
layer, one project now, then you

91
00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:06,000
went to start axle or like your 
own project. 

92
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,800
So curious, like what are the 
main lessons of learnings that 

93
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,200
you had from like your timing 
diagram that you are like? 

94
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,400
Okay, that's something. 
You know, definitely want to do 

95
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,700
differently or that's like 
something that's like really 

96
00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:21,500
important in terms of how you 
approach launching crypto 

97
00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:24,500
protocol. 
Yeah, great question. 

98
00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:27,800
I mean, I think a, you know, it 
is important to say that the 

99
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,000
time it was probably, you know, 
a little bit different at right 

100
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,500
now than when it was when we're 
launching our grant. 

101
00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:35,300
So, you know, some of the things
that I say, you know, should be 

102
00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:39,600
Revisited, right? 
But I think that being said, at 

103
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,700
least build in right now, with 
the last few years. 

104
00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:45,700
I kind of realized that building
alongside the community is 

105
00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:48,700
probably, you know, one of the 
most important things, right? 

106
00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:52,700
So that as you make in 
decisions, as you're building a 

107
00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:56,500
network, It's right where you 
have lots of actors, participate

108
00:05:56,500 --> 00:05:59,200
in it like validators, right? 
You have users, you have 

109
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,000
applications. 
That will be interacting with 

110
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,200
it. 
I think getting feedback early 

111
00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:08,100
get in, you know, reacting to 
the feedback iterating quickly, 

112
00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,100
allowing people to you know, 
contribute and participate and 

113
00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:15,000
build alongside with you hear 
their ideas is kind of quite 

114
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,500
fundamental, right? 
And I think this is right now 

115
00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:21,300
that to me, to me that's been 
one of the most rewarding things

116
00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,700
I think building in crypto space
and Building an open network is 

117
00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:28,400
that, you know, we have a core 
team that that does a lot of 

118
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,600
development. 
But I think without the external

119
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,100
support of folks, like, like, 
you guys course, one right and 

120
00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:38,500
other validators, and other 
community members building, like

121
00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:40,700
dashboards and tools and 
monitor, and Services. 

122
00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:43,600
I think it would be a lot harder
to get what we are. 

123
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,200
So and we're trying to leverage 
that, I guess to the fullest 

124
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,900
extent. 
What's your secret like 

125
00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:52,300
building? 
The axle our community. 

126
00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:55,200
What has worked best? 
I'm not sure if there's you 

127
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,700
know, it's specific one secret 
but I think being transparent 

128
00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:01,700
right being open and where we 
are, you know, listening to 

129
00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:05,200
feedback inviting people and I 
think, you know, it's important 

130
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:06,900
to help each other out, right? 
As we're building. 

131
00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:09,700
This is there is a lot of folks 
that are kind of get into the 

132
00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:13,900
space trying to learn how to, 
you know, set up nodes or how to

133
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,200
perform simple transactions, 
across networks and things like 

134
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,600
that. 
And just listen to that, 

135
00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:22,500
providing feedback along the 
side. 

136
00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:24,900
I think that's, you know, that 
that worked quite well with us. 

137
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,400
I think the other things that we
have done well is we're running 

138
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,100
a lot of different Community 
programs work where we try to 

139
00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:33,200
structure how people engage with
axilor. 

140
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,000
Right? 
So the we've been running this 

141
00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:40,100
Quantum Community program over 
the last few months and kind of 

142
00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:42,500
Kate who is working on our 
community. 

143
00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:45,700
Development's been doing a lot 
of driving behind it. 

144
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,000
And there are we allowed How 
kind of non-technical people to 

145
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,700
participate, right? 
Which is something people have 

146
00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:54,700
asked for a lot, which like how 
do I create content? 

147
00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:56,600
Like what type of content you 
guys need? 

148
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,400
How do I create documentation, 
like technical right apps about 

149
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,000
axilor, like how to explain it 
better, and things like that. 

150
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,200
And so, you know, we try to put 
some structure and give them 

151
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,600
some ideas how to how to get 
engaged. 

152
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,700
And then I think that that 
worked quite well. 

153
00:08:11,900 --> 00:08:14,500
Let's think maybe step back 
around. 

154
00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,200
Axle are so, what was what was 
the original impetus? 

155
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,700
Like? 
Why did you want to start this 

156
00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:24,300
project? 
And what's your vision for Axl 

157
00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:26,900
are? 
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think 

158
00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:29,600
as we were building our brand 
and taking it to the market, I 

159
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,799
think a will quickly realize 
that a lot of other, you know, 

160
00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:36,500
platforms are been built in 
parallel that are going to have 

161
00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:38,600
traction that are going to have 
use cases. 

162
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,000
And, you know, may be optimized 
for different. 

163
00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:44,400
Current constraints that like 
Iran was optimized for, for 

164
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,100
instance, you know, some of them
build their own different 

165
00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:49,200
software stack. 
Some of them just Target 

166
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,900
different markets. 
And so definitely, we quickly 

167
00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:56,800
saw that many ecosystems would 
continue to evolve in the space 

168
00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,400
right now. 
When you take that as a, you 

169
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,600
know, as a given, then the first
question that asks, well, how do

170
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,300
you interact across those 
ecosystems right? 

171
00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,700
For us, the first ecosystems, we
wanted to interact with from our

172
00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:10,600
grand War Bitcoin aetherium, 
right? 

173
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,800
Then I think Every proof of 
stake blockchain that was built 

174
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,400
around the same time frame had a
similar questions. 

175
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,100
Like how do you connect to those
two networks? 

176
00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:21,400
But, you know, that on its own, 
you know, you can think about 

177
00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,700
like Bridges or some some, some 
type of one-off solution and 

178
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,000
serve that's fine. 
But if you take as an assumption

179
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,400
that many other ecosystems are 
going to continue being billed, 

180
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,900
continue being developed. 
Then you ask yourself a 

181
00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:35,600
question. 
Well, how do you make it easier 

182
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,800
to connect all of them together?
What are the universal metrics 

183
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,900
that you have to satisfy at the 
protocol? 

184
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,800
ER, at the infrastructure layer 
to connect them together. 

185
00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:45,900
And so that's what we started to
do. 

186
00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:51,500
And the end goal for actually 
has always been to allow users 

187
00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:53,900
and developers to interact with 
all of these ecosystems. 

188
00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:56,000
In an easy way. 
I see an application. 

189
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,400
I have an asset, I should be 
able to go and use that 

190
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400
application with my asset which 
is not really possible. 

191
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,100
If you have to hop across from 
one network to another, you 

192
00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:08,500
know, in some fashion. 
So if you see in the end, like 

193
00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:11,600
if he's sort of Acts lard or 
interoperability in the long 

194
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,100
run, you think we're going to 
have like lots of different 

195
00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,900
interoperability protocol. 
So do you think there is going 

196
00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:20,900
to be like a convergence on, you
know, one or two great 

197
00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:24,100
questions. 
So I think there's going to be 

198
00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:26,500
different protocols. 
But different Protocols are 

199
00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:28,700
going to be across different 
layers of the stack. 

200
00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:31,400
Okay. 
So if you take as an analogy, 

201
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:34,600
you know how, the internet works
right interoperability. 

202
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,500
Protocols are all about About 
how the internet is structured, 

203
00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:39,500
right? 
And it's not a single protocol, 

204
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:42,400
its kind of sets of protocols 
that were built. 

205
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,000
Everything from, you know, 
routing, protocols transmission,

206
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,000
protocols, application layer, 
protocols on some of the layers.

207
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,400
You have few protocols, you 
know, on the core routing 

208
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,600
infrastructure layer, you have 
protocols like IP bgp, right, 

209
00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:00,900
then you have TCP and UDP 
protocols on top of it. 

210
00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:03,700
But then you have many 
application layer, protocols, 

211
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:06,600
that are making it easy for the 
applications to Interact on 

212
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,500
going to talk to one another and
at least right now, I would 

213
00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:13,700
think that something similar 
will happen in the blockchain. 

214
00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:18,300
Ecosystem, were at the core, you
know, routing or infrastructure 

215
00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:20,300
layer will probably get end up 
with. 

216
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,800
I think a handful of solutions, 
right? 

217
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,200
Or maybe protocols. 
And then on top of it, I expect 

218
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,600
to see a lot more application 
layer, protocols, that, you 

219
00:11:30,608 --> 00:11:33,400
know, leverage all of the core 
infrastructure to communicate 

220
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,200
and go back and forth and that's
what, you know, Applications 

221
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,500
would be exposed with but on the
network and Route and layer, you

222
00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:42,900
know, I don't think we cannot 
scale if there is just too many 

223
00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:45,300
protocols, right? 
This the system can just going 

224
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,000
to continue to be fragmented. 
So I do think there is going to 

225
00:11:48,008 --> 00:11:51,600
be a, you know, a convergence 
towards a few approaches or a 

226
00:11:51,608 --> 00:11:56,400
few message formats, and some 
sense when you are pursuing 

227
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,000
that, all right, you know, kind 
of started work on this. 

228
00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:02,200
On this idea of like, having 
this interoperability solution. 

229
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,600
What did you feel like was? 
I mean, what would it mean? 

230
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:10,600
Kind of requirements that you 
have for, like the solutions 

231
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,400
that were produced. 
Like, what were you trying to 

232
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,400
optimize for? 
Yeah. 

233
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,800
So I think, first requirement 
that we had, was to be able to 

234
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,100
connect with the, with any 
ecosystem, in an easy way, 

235
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,100
right? 
So meaning that in the 

236
00:12:24,108 --> 00:12:27,100
blockchain space, we've seen 
lots of different consensus, 

237
00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:30,800
protocols, everything from proof
of work to proof of stake. 

238
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,100
They all have different finality
rules. 

239
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,800
They all have their way of 
doing. 

240
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,500
Only with, you know, safety and 
live in those thresholds and so 

241
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:40,900
on and so forth. 
And so we wanted to be able to 

242
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:45,400
plug in in an easy way with any 
of the ecosystems without having

243
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,200
to make complicated engineering 
projects and kind of spent years

244
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,000
integrate in one platform to 
another. 

245
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,100
So that was a, you know, first 
core requirement. 

246
00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:58,700
I think the second core 
requirement was to be able to 

247
00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:02,700
translate right and Route across
any of these ecosystems in an 

248
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:05,800
easy way. 
So I think the basic problem 

249
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:08,300
that comes up as you connect 
more and more of these 

250
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:10,700
ecosystems. 
Is that a, they all speak very 

251
00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:13,300
different formats and different 
languages, right? 

252
00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,000
So you need a mechanism to be 
able to, you know, take a 

253
00:13:16,008 --> 00:13:20,500
message from one chain, be able 
to translate it and put it as a 

254
00:13:20,508 --> 00:13:23,900
message on a different chain and
you need to be able to Route it 

255
00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:27,100
in an effective way. 
Like how do you make sure that 

256
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,600
as new ecosystems that been 
added, there is no additional 

257
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,400
like, Layton sees or hops that 
are introduces to to connect to 

258
00:13:34,408 --> 00:13:37,100
those ecosystems. 
So, Were some of the core 

259
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:39,700
requirements that we that we 
wanted to make sure we can 

260
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:44,600
satisfy and the final one was to
really think about it. 

261
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,200
How do we make it easier for the
users to interact with all of 

262
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,100
this solutions? 
Right? 

263
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:53,500
I think we are still so early at
the interoperability space where

264
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:57,500
we talking about, you know, core
pipes and infrastructure, but we

265
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,800
do have to get to a level where 
you know applications integrate 

266
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,800
with this infrastructure so that
the users can go and just use 

267
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,000
the application that they They 
that they want across the 

268
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,300
ecosystem and so building a 
stack that would allow for that 

269
00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:12,900
user experience is actually 
quite fundamental and quite 

270
00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:14,900
important. 
And, you know, we spend a lot of

271
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:17,900
time thinking how to make those,
you know, those design decisions

272
00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:20,200
that would down the line 
optimized for this user 

273
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,100
experience and make it easier 
for the users to to talk to all 

274
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:28,200
of these chains. 
Cool, and so, can you describe 

275
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,100
the, you know, what's the 
architecture that you ended up 

276
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:35,100
arriving and like, what this Arc
slow look like on a high level. 

277
00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:37,000
Yeah. 
So on the high level, you know, 

278
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,100
excellor is a proof of stake 
Network. 

279
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:42,500
That's built around Cosmos has 
Decay, right? 

280
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:47,700
And what it runs is that it runs
a kind of cross chain consensus 

281
00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:52,700
protocol that we have built. 
And what happens under the hood.

282
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:56,500
Is that a set of valid? 
Odors or collectively monitor a 

283
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:59,400
different block chains, and 
they're monitoring the special 

284
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,200
exit points on those 
blockchains. 

285
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,000
Right? 
We'll call them X or gateways. 

286
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,300
So, think of a Gateway as a 
special account or a set of 

287
00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:10,100
accounts or a smart contract. 
If you talking about, you know, 

288
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,900
a smart contract, compatible 
chain, information can come into

289
00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:17,600
this, Gateway account, the 
validators collectively, reach a

290
00:15:17,608 --> 00:15:20,400
decision of what needs to happen
with that information, right? 

291
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,800
Where it needs to go, where it 
needs to be routed or translate 

292
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,600
along. 
Way, they perform those 

293
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,000
functions collectively, they 
vote on it and then they produce

294
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,300
a message that can be posted on 
the destination chain and that 

295
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:37,900
message then gets executed. 
And so, the basic idea is that 

296
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:41,500
you have this axilor consensus 
protocol and the validators that

297
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:43,800
are executing, all these cross 
chain functions. 

298
00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:47,200
You can on board more chains, 
you know, more validators can 

299
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,700
join. 
It's an open network. 

300
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,900
You can keep on adding more 
protocols and you get all the 

301
00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:56,000
benefits of having this. 
Universal overlay Network across

302
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,600
all of the, all of the 
blockchains that does all the 

303
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,200
core functions. 
Right. 

304
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,400
And in just to maybe, kind of 
contrast is a little like, like 

305
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,700
11 interoperability solution 
that people may be aware of is, 

306
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,200
you know, something called IDC, 
right, which exists in Cosmos 

307
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,600
and IBC basically have like, 
okay. 

308
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,900
Let's say Cosmos Harbor nose, 
Moses and you have a light kind 

309
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:23,700
of the cosmos shop running in a 
small system the like kind of a 

310
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:27,600
smooth running the cosmos Hub or
you know, they dislike kind 

311
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,500
proves the basically accepted 
and Then you can connect this 

312
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:32,400
way. 
Now. 

313
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,800
Of course, the problem is, that 
doesn't really like work easily 

314
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,800
across like, lots of different 
chains, right? 

315
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,800
For example. 
Like, how is it Bitcoin chain 

316
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,300
going to like verify it, like 
climb proof some some other 

317
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:50,200
chain. 
So then here you basically you 

318
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,000
have a set of operators know 
that I like running full knows 

319
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,200
that you didn't trust. 
Yeah, exactly, right. 

320
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,400
So, I guess, yeah, like, you 
know what you mentioned is quite

321
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,099
correct, right? 
Like, I think I'd be see is, you

322
00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:08,300
know, great protocol, and I 
think it works really well, but 

323
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,700
it wasn't a very heavy 
engineering undertaking, right? 

324
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,500
Even for ten german-based, 
change to integrate and 

325
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:18,000
Implement integrated it for some
other chains, even proof of 

326
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,599
stake chains. 
Like I'll Grant or Avalanche. 

327
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,300
I'm in a lot of the stack will 
have to be rebuilt to do that. 

328
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,599
Right? 
Which is you know, kind of Would

329
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,400
be years of work and 
engineering. 

330
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,200
And so, I think that's one 
thing. 

331
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,400
And to you are always going to 
be in the need of maintaining 

332
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,400
this, like, lines and these 
connections, right? 

333
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,400
If you create IBC connection, 
so, if I'm upgrading my proof of

334
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,200
stake blockchain and I modify 
and consensus, because I have a 

335
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,600
better algorithm or I want to 
change the way I'm, you know, 

336
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,300
creating blocks or headers. 
That means all of the 

337
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:52,700
connections that I need to 
manage as an operator of this 

338
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,400
network. 
I would have to go and write the

339
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,800
low-light clients for them. 
They may have to be produced in 

340
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,300
different languages like 
solidity, you know, rust 

341
00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:02,400
consensus, layer, whatever, that
is. 

342
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,100
I have to go and upgrade them, 
maintain them, and so on and so 

343
00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:09,900
forth. 
So I think we try to optimize a 

344
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,800
little bit more for engineering 
ease of use, and onboarding. 

345
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,300
In some sense. 
Then I would say, kind of a IBC 

346
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:22,000
is almost like, you know, the 
the ideal model, but it's, you 

347
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,200
know, but it's but it's very 
hard to scale and practice. 

348
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,100
And if you talking about diverse
ecosystems, Oh systems. 

349
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,400
Maybe you can talk a little bit 
about the security aspect of 

350
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:34,800
interoperability. 
Right? 

351
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:40,300
I mean, I think we have seen 
some of the biggest hacks and, 

352
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,800
and sort of misfortunes have 
happened around 

353
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,400
interoperability. 
I think there was something only

354
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,800
theorem as I remember was called
now, but that was like, a few 

355
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,900
months ago. 
That was like a really huge one.

356
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:54,700
And then, of course, we had 
Wormhole more recently, like why

357
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:58,700
is the Of interoperability in 
your view. 

358
00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,100
Why is this so hard? 
Yeah, great question. 

359
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,400
Because at the very core kind of
any interoperability protocol 

360
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,400
works as follows, right? 
You you need to you have let's 

361
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,300
say you have two to block 
chains, right? 

362
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:14,800
On the very high level. 
Any blockchain is a database 

363
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,900
plus a network, right? 
So let's think of it as a 

364
00:19:16,908 --> 00:19:20,100
database. 
So your goal is to get to 

365
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,000
synchronize to databases in some
sense, right? 

366
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,700
So what is the way of 
synchronizing estate across two 

367
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:28,000
databases? 
As well, the most standard 

368
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,300
approaches that, you know, you 
lock a state on a source chain 

369
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,900
you, replicate it on a 
destination chain, right? 

370
00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,600
So when are we talking about 
moving assets across different? 

371
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,600
Blockchains, most of them 
effectively lock the state on 

372
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,800
the source chain of an asset and
then you replicate the state on 

373
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,300
the destination chain. 
And then destination chain can 

374
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:49,300
work with that state. 
And then you go back and forth. 

375
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:51,500
Right? 
So it's a similar, how, you 

376
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:53,600
know, on the internet we're 
doing messages across different 

377
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,900
systems were, you know, I 
messages sent. 

378
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:58,700
You can put Databases, you know,
you can lock information, one, 

379
00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,500
database or another. 
You can manipulate it and so on 

380
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:05,600
and so forth. 
So, that effectively creates a 

381
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,400
big challenge. 
Is that how when you lock the 

382
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,100
state on the source chain, how 
to make sure the nobody can 

383
00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,900
unlock it, right without being 
authorized, without getting 

384
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:19,800
authorization to unlock? 
And, you know, in in IBC, for 

385
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,300
instance model, what allows you 
to serve lock or unlock or these

386
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:26,500
proofs? 
Right. 

387
00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:30,100
That you passed around from kind
of source chain to destination 

388
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:33,800
chain and that proves allows you
to verify that information on a 

389
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,400
different chain, has entered a 
certain format and therefore, it

390
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,000
can now be manipulated and on 
this destination chain right? 

391
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,900
With most interoperability 
protocol, that's similar way. 

392
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,800
The question is, what is this 
proof? 

393
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:50,300
The question is, how compact is 
the proof, how easy it is to 

394
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:52,400
generate it and so on and so 
forth? 

395
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,500
And because a lot of these 
interoperability Protocols are 

396
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,800
built. 
Across many complicated software

397
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,600
Stacks is just non-trivial to do
this to do this the right way, 

398
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,400
but I would say that it's a kind
of a no different than well. 

399
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,000
It is different but it is very 
similar to how we were, just 

400
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,200
learning how to build. 
Let's say like different defy 

401
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,900
applications in a secure way. 
Three years ago, right? 

402
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,500
I mean, I think you remember, 
you know, 2017, 2018 2019. 

403
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:24,500
Lots of applications worshipped 
people just experiment and lock 

404
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:26,400
in, you know, millions or 
hundreds of millions of dollars.

405
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,500
Dollars of liquidity. 
There was some attacks. 

406
00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:32,600
Were well, some chains, even 
decided to Fork, right, to 

407
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:38,600
prevent to kind of resolve the 
incident, but it was the same 

408
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,800
problem that people just didn't 
know how to do is securely. 

409
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,100
People didn't pay attention to 
the audits, right? 

410
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:46,000
People still learning the kind 
of the edge cases of some of 

411
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,800
these software programming 
models. 

412
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,600
With, I'm interoperability. 
You talking about a much more 

413
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,200
complicated problem, or you 
talking about different, many 

414
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,100
different ecosystems, you have 
to, you know, create those 

415
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,600
proofs. 
An efficient way you have to 

416
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,000
relay them. 
But you know, I do think it's a 

417
00:22:00,008 --> 00:22:02,600
solvable problem. 
You just have to be much more 

418
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,400
thoughtful, how you think about 
security how you think about 

419
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,600
audits, you know emergency 
mechanisms and so on and so 

420
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:09,800
forth. 
It's a full stack that you 

421
00:22:09,808 --> 00:22:12,700
really have to serve Embrace if 
you actually try to solve this 

422
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,700
and do you think there is, you 
know, kind of like a fundamental

423
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,800
difference in sort of the level 
of security between, you know, 

424
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,200
like this kind of light client 
based approach versus approach 

425
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,500
where you know you have 
Basically a set of operators who

426
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:32,400
run full nodes on on each chain 
and to the observe the state. 

427
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:36,500
I mean, there are definitely you
know differences if you look at 

428
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,700
you know, kind of a one 
connection at a time, right, but

429
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:43,300
I think if you look at the 
ecosystem from a broader 

430
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:48,700
perspective, then you kind of 
realize the following a suppose 

431
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:51,700
we're going to be in a world 
with hundreds of thousands of 

432
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:53,700
chains. 
Okay, which not even an 

433
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:54,700
assumption anymore. 
Right? 

434
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:57,100
I think we'll definitely get a 
bit of world with Hundreds of 

435
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:01,400
useful chains, maybe thousands 
down the line in that model. 

436
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:04,800
You cannot have pairwise 
connections across every single 

437
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,500
chain period, right? 
Because then every chain will 

438
00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:09,900
have to manage, you know, a 
hundred other connections, you 

439
00:23:09,908 --> 00:23:12,300
know, you're going to need to 
have, you know, almost n Square 

440
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,600
connections across all of these 
chains who's going to manage 

441
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,100
them, who's going to figure, you
know, update all the whatever 

442
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:21,600
protocols like lines deal with 
emergencies and so on and so 

443
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,300
forth. 
So, no matter what, I think, if 

444
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:27,600
you in a world with many 
different chains, Then you can 

445
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,900
have to trust some intermediary,
you know, pubs along the way, 

446
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,400
that will route you information,
right? 

447
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,800
And whatever you trust in some 
intermediate Hub to Route some 

448
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,900
information through whatever 
protocol you're going to be 

449
00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:43,200
trusting, you know, the 
validator set of that Hub and on

450
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,600
the internet as an example. 
We are, you know, an average 

451
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,100
taken like six or seven paths 
across any different network 

452
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,400
when we send the packet, right? 
And so the, you know, if you 

453
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,600
were to replicate it through 
the, you know, To the blockchain

454
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,300
ecosystem. 
Imagine taken Six Paths, which I

455
00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:01,900
don't think we should. 
By the way, I think we should 

456
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:04,300
try to minimize the number of 
hops in. 

457
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:05,900
It will go from any to 
blockchains foot. 

458
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,800
This reasons. 
Is that every time you would 

459
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,000
take a hop, you're going to have
to trust that, you know, another

460
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,700
set of protocol or another sets 
of assumptions along the way. 

461
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,000
So it's inevitable that you're 
going to have to trust some 

462
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,200
intermediary, unless you're big 
enough to manage, you know, 

463
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,600
hundreds of thousands of 
connections yourself, right, 

464
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,900
which nobody wants to do. 
So, I think that's not really, 

465
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:28,600
you know, An issue, you would 
rather trust actual somebody who

466
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,600
can do a diligent job of being 
this sort of security to provide

467
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,000
a for you, right? 
And being this Hub that can you 

468
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,400
know, secure the connected with 
hundreds of different chains. 

469
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,600
And so that, you know, that if 
something goes wrong, this 

470
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,800
network provider knows how to 
deal with it, right? 

471
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,800
And have the operations in place
has the protocols in place to 

472
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,900
deal with emergencies, you know,
and react to it. 

473
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:54,600
I think that's one thing. 
I think the second thing this is

474
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,300
I think quite important to note 
Is that most blockchains today, 

475
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,900
run across the same validator 
set, right? 

476
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,500
You know, it's a kind of Cora's 
right figment the, you know, I 

477
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:11,000
can name, you know, a couple 
dozen validator sets and you 

478
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,400
know, a lot of them have the 
majority of the steak on most of

479
00:25:14,408 --> 00:25:16,800
these protocols. 
And so, whenever you talking 

480
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,600
about, you know, trust in this 
network of that Network, at the 

481
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,800
end of the day, you trust in the
validators, and most of the time

482
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,900
you trust him, you know, the 
same valid data. 

483
00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:31,100
So, you know, I hope will 
continue to centralize them for 

484
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,600
right now. 
It's not even a problem of how 

485
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,200
many nodes are protocol. 
Can support this more about how 

486
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,200
much you can decentralize the 
stake in some sense, right, 

487
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:41,900
while still while still making 
it economically. 

488
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:44,200
Attractive for the validators to
continue operating the 

489
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Network's. 
So I think that's actually a 

490
00:25:45,808 --> 00:25:49,000
bigger challenge than, you know,
how many nodes your protocol can

491
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,600
support at this point. 
Yeah, and then of course, one of

492
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,300
the interesting aspects of like,
you know, I remember in the 

493
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,300
past. 
I don't hear this argument so 

494
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:02,500
much anymore, but you know 
people often saying like Owen 

495
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,000
calls on us. 
Like how is it going to be safe 

496
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,900
and secure? 
Because like you have so many 

497
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:09,700
different chains and you know, 
isn't a market cap enough and 

498
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:14,100
things like that, but then like,
of course we haven't seen right?

499
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:18,100
Like in the theorem classic. 
We had this thing where like you

500
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:19,900
had a majority of the mining 
power. 

501
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,900
Basically, You do this 51% 
attack and like, go back the 

502
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:25,000
chain. 
Well, this is not happened in a 

503
00:26:25,008 --> 00:26:27,200
proof of stake chain. 
And I okay. 

504
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,000
Why not? 
I mean, I guess various reasons,

505
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,300
right? 
First of all, I think it's 

506
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:33,300
economically. 
It's just like so much more 

507
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:35,400
expensive. 
It just doesn't make any sense 

508
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,800
to basically ever do that. 
But then I think you also have 

509
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,200
the factor right now. 
Okay, you have all these 

510
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,200
different validators and if they
did something malicious on one 

511
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,800
chain, well, they would like 
totally ruined their whole 

512
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,900
business on, like all the That's
right. 

513
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:55,100
So I think it means that even 
smaller chains, right? 

514
00:26:55,100 --> 00:27:00,400
Can be pretty, you have this 
kind of like this channel, trust

515
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,800
through in the reputation and in
a way that the Aggregates take, 

516
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,800
that's with them. 
Yeah. 

517
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,900
I mean, I'm totally with you 
that right? 

518
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:12,600
Then I think the only thing that
we have worked to protect the 

519
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,900
ecosystem has been to try to 
maximize the centralization, 

520
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:20,000
right, you know, it's still, I 
would say not sufficiently, you 

521
00:27:20,008 --> 00:27:21,200
know. 
Centralized yet. 

522
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,200
I think we'll get they'll 
continue working on getting, you

523
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,300
know, more validators, kind of 
included in these sets and 

524
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,200
having them, you know, given 
them enough voting power and 

525
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,600
things like that. 
But but like you said, that's 

526
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,200
the only thing that has kind of 
proven to work right where you 

527
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,300
have dozens, or maybe hundreds 
of different actors and 

528
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,700
coordinating between them like 
an attack. 

529
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:44,600
I'j, we all know who they are. 
Right? 

530
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,400
Like they own food labels and 
you know, why websites? 

531
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:51,600
So, and I think just a few judge
credit. 

532
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,900
I think, you know, to all the 
validators communities on that 

533
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,400
because I think they have 
powered a lot of what we see in 

534
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,100
the blockchain ecosystem today. 
Let's dive into a bit more sun 

535
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:04,900
for so far. 
Right interoperability in crypto

536
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,600
has mostly been around talking 
transfer, right? 

537
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,200
Like you have, you know, Bitcoin
and you want to put it into D 

538
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,500
Phi. 
So now we're going to use like 

539
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:18,200
I'm W btc-e or you know you have
in Cosmos, you have like 

540
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,200
different tokens and you want to
put them. 

541
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,700
Nice, Moses, you know, you want 
to put atoms in like liquidity 

542
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:28,300
pool and osmosis or like, what 
do you think? 

543
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:32,800
Or do you use case is like 
Beyond token transfer that you 

544
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,500
think are most exciting. 
Yeah. 

545
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,200
So, you know, I think there's a 
lot, right? 

546
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,400
That like, I think token 
transfers in some senses, just 

547
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,200
kind of need and that's why 
we're seeing a lot of 

548
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,400
interoperability bin centers 
around it, but more generally, 

549
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,300
you can just ask, can I use? 
Zur, you know, directly interact

550
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,000
with an application with the 
tokens that they have on a 

551
00:28:55,008 --> 00:28:57,400
different chain, right? 
And interaction with an 

552
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,500
application may or may not 
involve the token transfer, but 

553
00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:04,100
it often involves like other 
information that makes to be 

554
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,200
passed along, right? 
So, let me give you an example, 

555
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,000
suppose you have, you know, a 
stable coin, like UST on a 

556
00:29:10,008 --> 00:29:12,400
cosmos chain right on terror, 
right? 

557
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:16,800
And then as a user, you want to 
get directly. 

558
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,400
Let's say Heath on the theorem 
chain, so The ideal user 

559
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,800
experience, from a user 
perspective, is them just going 

560
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,600
to their wallet, right, you 
know, making a one-click 

561
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,400
transaction where their tokens 
if needs to be routed across 

562
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,200
from, you know, Tara blockchain 
to etherium swap on the 

563
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,500
destination chain for eith and 
then the user receives eith 

564
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:42,000
right away in their wallet. 
So this is her one, click 

565
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,400
experience where a token 
transfer is augmented with some 

566
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,900
other information the user, the 
user may include like what is 

567
00:29:49,908 --> 00:29:52,600
the The nation address where 
they need to receive the token. 

568
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,800
What else? 
I don't know the slippage that 

569
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,000
they're willing to tolerate and 
tolerate during this exchange 

570
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,300
and so on and so forth, right? 
So I guess go and Beyond tokens.

571
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:05,000
What we're asking is that candy 
users and applications composed 

572
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,400
with one another across this 
ecosystems, right? 

573
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,500
And that often requires passing 
messages, like, you know, 

574
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:14,300
slippage information, whatever 
exchange rate that you like to 

575
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:18,000
take amount, you know you Source
destination addresses, you want 

576
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,900
to communicate across and so on 
and so forth. 

577
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,800
I think that's, you know, just 
at layer above, I would say, you

578
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,100
know, the token transfers, which
is still mostly Tok still 

579
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,300
centered around talking 
transfer, use case. 

580
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,600
I think, from there, serve the 
sky's the limit in some sense, 

581
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,800
right? 
Any acid has been created, like 

582
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,500
kind of T will effectively need 
interoperability because users 

583
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:41,300
want to interact with those 
assets across different 

584
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:44,100
ecosystems. 
And finally the applications 

585
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:47,100
want to interact with one 
another and compose write today.

586
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,200
If you're building on top of the
etherium, you were taken. 

587
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:52,100
Interoperability for granted 
right? 

588
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:56,400
But the reason that we're seeing
defy and you know, etherium or 

589
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,400
other proof of stake, 
blockchains emerge is because 

590
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,600
they allow developers to talk to
one another right on the same 

591
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,800
Block Chain. 
They can execute the function 

592
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,500
calls. 
They can perform swaps one 

593
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:11,200
another and so on and so forth. 
And so that's what we win. 

594
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,000
A want to enable across 
different blockchains right 

595
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,700
where applications can talk to 
one another send information 

596
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:23,400
pull, you know, Rewards. 
CV, liquidity, mining rewards 

597
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,100
and so on and so forth. 
And you know, I do think it's 

598
00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:29,100
important to understand that 
that model we're going to have 

599
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,300
to change the way. 
The development is done a little

600
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:33,300
bit, you know what can talk more
about that. 

601
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:36,900
But it is a new program in model
in some sense and and developers

602
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,600
will have to embrace it but I 
think it surf inevitable. 

603
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,600
That I think it is going to 
happen. 

604
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,700
Yeah, let's go get into that 
because that was one of the 

605
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:47,800
topic I wanted to discuss with 
you. 

606
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,600
So has often been brought up as 
You know, one of the core, you 

607
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,600
know, strength of the theory 
Emanuel, the advantage of e.t. 

608
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,000
Room over. 
Let's say something like the 

609
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,800
cosmos ecosystem, where okay, 
you have all the smart contracts

610
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,400
on like a single chain and then 
it's pretty easy for me to, you 

611
00:32:06,408 --> 00:32:09,700
know, create some other 
application that like uses two 

612
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:13,700
different chains. 
And another in other aspects of 

613
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:16,300
this, that has been often 
brought up as like, okay. 

614
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:20,700
This is like, you know, really 
core Advantage is that I can 

615
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:23,300
make, you know, a transaction 
that interacts with different 

616
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:28,200
block chains and different, 
smart contracts and, you know, 

617
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,400
either their whole transaction 
succeed or it fails. 

618
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:35,800
So this like Atomic transactions
and Flash loans, only term, 

619
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,900
write this like this. 
This Paradigm example, where 

620
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:44,300
flash groans, basically allow 
you to kind of borrow money like

621
00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:47,600
use the money in a bunch of 
transactions and like, repay the

622
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,000
money like in the same 
transaction. 

623
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,700
And in same block. 
So then I basically, you know, 

624
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,900
there's like no Capital risk 
where the money is basically 

625
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:03,300
almost like instantaneously 
taking and giving back and of 

626
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:07,500
course that's like pretty unique
and kind of strange use case. 

627
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,800
So yeah, how is that going to 
change? 

628
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,100
Like do you think these Atomic 
transactions? 

629
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,500
Is that is that something that's
like that important or how is 

630
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:20,200
that going to play out in the in
a sort of? 

631
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:25,800
Our cross chain context, I think
you know before maybe we just 

632
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,900
answer that. 
I think just taking a slight 

633
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:29,800
step back. 
I think it's kind of important 

634
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,400
to understand that it's serve 
inevitable that applications, 

635
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,700
you know, and serve cross chain,
will have to be a reality to 

636
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:39,700
just continue scaling the 
ecosystem, right? 

637
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:44,000
Because why aren't we built 
continue building all on on top 

638
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:44,900
of a theorem? 
Right? 

639
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,900
Well, because it's one network, 
it's one database and is 

640
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:52,300
congested period, right? 
And I think if you look at a lot

641
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,600
of other block change, no matter
how much research, you know 

642
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,800
throughput, they process however
fast they are. 

643
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,100
If it's a single database if 
it's a single Network at some 

644
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:02,300
point, it's going to be 
congested. 

645
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:05,200
Once you talk it about, you 
know, even a handful of major 

646
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,500
applications that need, you 
know, thousands of transactions 

647
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:09,300
of throughput running on top of 
it, right? 

648
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,600
So in some sense to continue 
scaling, the ecosystem and to 

649
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,800
continue in a surviving like 
we're going to have to have more

650
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,699
networks. 
So I think that's inevitable, 

651
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,600
but then that model, you know, 
Ask well, how do I talk to to 

652
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,500
one another right then? 
And I think like I mentioned the

653
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:31,500
model changes were instead of 
having a transaction that may be

654
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:34,500
you know, Atomic whenever you 
executed in a single program and

655
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:38,199
environment, you will be 
interacting in a more of a 

656
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:42,300
message passing way. 
This is similar to how a lot of 

657
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:45,699
the networks on the internet 
again, right? 

658
00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:48,900
And the traditional web to 
Applications, have scaled, they 

659
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,400
all run behind. 
Find different networks or 

660
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,400
different database instances in 
the back end. 

661
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:54,900
Right? 
And they send messages to 

662
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,400
exchange to one another and we 
have protocols for reliably 

663
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,300
sending messages, unreliably 
sending messages, right? 

664
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:03,600
And then you build your 
application logic around those 

665
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,900
messages, that tells you what to
do when, you know, the message 

666
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:08,100
hasn't arrived. 
Right? 

667
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,400
Or it needs to be transmitted 
or, you know, in this case, it 

668
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,900
would be what to do. 
When a transaction doesn't go 

669
00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:15,900
through right? 
Or, you know, the asset is not 

670
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,000
delivered on the destination 
chain or whatever the swap that 

671
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,500
you want to do on the Can chain,
doesn't go through? 

672
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,400
What do you want to do with it? 
You're gonna have to put some 

673
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,700
code in around it, and you're 
gonna have to put some rules, 

674
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:28,500
right? 
And that's where I think this 

675
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:31,900
layer of pending application. 
Layer, protocols will have to be

676
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:34,800
billed to, you know, to almost 
think about like, what are some 

677
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,700
of the good examples and use 
cases that we want to have with 

678
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:41,800
stronger properties that, you 
know, just a message passing, 

679
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,100
right? 
Like you want to revert, 

680
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:46,100
transactions across different 
networks, as you want to allow 

681
00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:49,900
people to, you know, re transmit
and replay and what types of 

682
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:51,700
fall. 
Back mechanisms that you have 

683
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:54,100
you want to have? 
Those are all can application 

684
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:56,800
specific cases that you have to 
think through but you know, I 

685
00:35:56,808 --> 00:36:00,100
don't think it's that hard. 
Well, it's not trivial would 

686
00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:03,000
have to think that through it 
but it is a solvable problem and

687
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,900
we have solved it in the past 
and you know, in this case, I 

688
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:11,000
think yeah, it's inevitable that
we're going to need this. 

689
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:14,300
And you know, and I think in 
some sense it's never ruled that

690
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:17,400
developers will have to adjust 
to this programming environment 

691
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,100
along the way. 
Do you think it is there? 

692
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,900
Have you thought about the idea 
of where, like, whether acts 

693
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:27,800
like could provide some kind of 
like, Atomic transaction 

694
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,500
guarantees across chain, so that
like, you know, I can make a 

695
00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:35,600
transaction on chain a and I 
wanted transactional chain be 

696
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,400
and like, you know, I only want 
to change action chain a to 

697
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,000
execute. 
If I, if also the transaction 

698
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,700
chain be executes, what defaults
on them. 

699
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,300
I think it's a great question. 
So we have we have to either 

700
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,500
About it. 
And, you know, it is possible. 

701
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,700
And I think this is where I 
think one of the architecture 

702
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:56,600
decisions that we made for 
building actually becomes, you 

703
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,700
know, pretty fundamental and 
necessary in some sense is 

704
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:04,600
because axilor itself runs on 
top of, you know, consensus and 

705
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:05,800
a blockchain system. 
Right. 

706
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,500
Around Cosmos has UK. 
So that means that whatever 

707
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,700
cross chain transactions, you 
want to execute, you can 

708
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,000
sequence them right on the axle 
Network itself, right? 

709
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,500
And then you can build your 
protocols around it. 

710
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:20,400
And you can say, You know, 
because there is a sequence of 

711
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,200
events and because you can rely 
on the axle Network to give you 

712
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,800
the surf, ordering of the 
transactions that need to be 

713
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,500
executed across different 
chains. 

714
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,800
You can then execute them in a, 
you know, in a specific order 

715
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:35,500
and only trigger if some other 
conditions have been satisfied. 

716
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:38,900
If you were, you know, in 
contrast if you were to work and

717
00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:42,700
try to satisfy this without 
survey, it consensus layer in 

718
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,400
the middle right there, without 
an ordering service. 

719
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,600
This becomes a lot harder, 
right? 

720
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,100
You would have to you, you would
have to replicate a lot of this 

721
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:54,700
functionality at the application
layer, which, you know, is 

722
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:59,700
pretty painful to do. 
Yeah, it's very interesting 

723
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:02,900
topic and I was actually two 
podcasts. 

724
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:05,500
I did just in the last like 
weeks where we kind of talked 

725
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:12,000
about this and you know one was 
15 Tribble of a gorik and he 

726
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,300
made the interesting claim that 
I don't think I'd heard before 

727
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:20,000
but he kind of made the claim 
that like, okay, if you have 

728
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,000
actually these different chains 
and if you don't have these like

729
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,700
Atomic actions across chain that
that actually She leads to a 

730
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:33,900
much more kind of, you know, 
robust ecosystem because they do

731
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:37,000
the risks and the failure modes 
are more contained, you know, 

732
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,600
you'll have like, okay something
goes wrong and but to this sort 

733
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,500
of, you know a little bit of an 
isolation of that. 

734
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:49,300
Do you see that as well or like?
Yeah, I mean, it's an 

735
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:51,200
interesting point. 
I would have to think a little 

736
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,600
bit about it. 
It is definitely, I guess easier

737
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,900
to build systems in that way. 
Where, you know, you have like 

738
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:01,400
this asynchronous model and then
you know, if one system goes 

739
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,500
down, you know, you can continue
operating the other models, you 

740
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:07,600
know, is this sufficient for 
applications that? 

741
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,600
I'm not sure that I think will 
have to think but but again I 

742
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:11,800
think from a systems 
perspective. 

743
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,100
I do think that that's the way, 
you know, we're going to have to

744
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:17,400
build things in some sense. 
But I do think you can build, 

745
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:18,900
you know, application layer 
protocols. 

746
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:21,900
On top of it that solve, you 
know, some specific needs 

747
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,200
whenever you need to satisfy 
some of these, you know, Atomic 

748
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,500
operations. 
But on the network layer or 

749
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:30,900
interoperability layer in some 
sense, it needs to be a little 

750
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:33,400
bit more decoupled and loose 
footing for these reasons for 

751
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,700
right, where if one network, or 
want systems goes down, like you

752
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:38,800
can't take down everybody else, 
right? 

753
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,500
That you have to isolate it and 
you have to contain the damage 

754
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:43,300
in some sense. 
Yeah. 

755
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,000
And the other, let me just also 
mention it because I just did 

756
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,900
the episode yesterday with the 
near guys. 

757
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:51,200
And this was also something that
like we discussed a little bit 

758
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:54,200
and I was not aware of that 
before, but right near you have 

759
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,400
like different charts. 
And then even if you have like 

760
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,300
two smart contracts that are on 
the same chart, they actually 

761
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:06,000
still, don't they still function
is asynchronous way, right? 

762
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,800
Where you don't have this Atomic
transactions and they were like,

763
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,400
okay, that's sort of their 
design choice. 

764
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,000
So that the developed does not 
actually have to care about 

765
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,300
which charts, the thing is in, 
and then, the contract can be 

766
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:20,500
moved around and it doesn't 
really change anything. 

767
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:23,900
But then of course, it also has 
that implication that, you know,

768
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,900
functions in this different way.
So, I Oh, I thought this was 

769
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:30,000
very interesting because maybe 
in the past maybe this is also 

770
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,000
something that the Syrian 
Community has like emphasized so

771
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,800
much about like oh this is so 
crucial. 

772
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,400
This is so crucial because it 
was maybe that's not really the 

773
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,000
case. 
Like I think you know back to 

774
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,300
what I was saying earlier, I 
think, you know near right? 

775
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:49,100
And Dean and Agora guys. 
They thought about how to scale 

776
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:51,900
the ecosystem, you know, for 
years to come, right? 

777
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:54,900
And I think they quickly realize
that the only way to scale at 

778
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:57,200
this to continue. 
Chardon, right? 

779
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,200
Or scaling horizontally, and 
some sense. 

780
00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:02,400
And whenever you scale in 
horizontally through many shards

781
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,100
of many blockchains or whatever 
that, you know, architecture 

782
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,700
that you choose, you're going to
have to switch to this 

783
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,000
asynchronous communication 
model, right? 

784
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,000
So I think, you know, that's 
probably I would say one of the 

785
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,600
reasons those guys are embracing
this model because it's you 

786
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,400
know, it's sort of inevitable. 
Maybe talk us through a bait. 

787
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,400
Like what's the, what's the 
status of Axl are today like 

788
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,200
what has been developed and 
yeah, like what? 

789
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:34,500
Yeah, so, you know, we spent a 
little over a year. 

790
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,000
I think today, it's kind of a 
building the core networking 

791
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,000
technology. 
We've run been running, you 

792
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,300
know, test nets for over eight 
months with our community. 

793
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:47,300
And last month. 
We just announced that we're 

794
00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:49,500
starting a phased rollout of the
main Network. 

795
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:52,900
So that means You know, in the 
first phase we already started 

796
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,100
to on board early validators, 
getting them connected with 

797
00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:59,000
different ecosystems. 
I think we're already connected.

798
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,100
I think six or seven different 
ecosystems through axilor. 

799
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:05,900
And we slowly going to be 
opening up different 

800
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:07,600
functionalities on top of the 
network. 

801
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,500
We already opened up 
functionality to transfer some 

802
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:14,400
assets. 
So you can move the things like 

803
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,400
Luna or USD across many evm. 
Different ecosystems through a 

804
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,700
kind of front-end. 
In that would build on top of 

805
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:23,900
it. 
And you know, the coming year is

806
00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:26,500
going to be pretty exciting as 
we're going to continue to open 

807
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:27,800
up. 
This functionality is working 

808
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,100
with developers and working with
the community to start scaling 

809
00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,700
this right? 
And you know along the way we'll

810
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:37,100
have to build better 
documentation better, apis. 

811
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,400
And sdks think about those 
application layer protocols that

812
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,500
will want to that will want to 
work with with our partners. 

813
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:47,000
And you know, what ecosystems 
will continue integrating down 

814
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,800
the line. 
So super excited. 

815
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,300
I think for the for the coming 
year. 

816
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:55,700
So one, one interesting 
question. 

817
00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:57,900
I have. 
So, you know, like let's say now

818
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:01,500
we have like chain day and it's 
like you made the example, 

819
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:04,300
right? 
So you have UST, right? 

820
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:07,000
Which is the stable coin that 
originates on terror. 

821
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:08,900
And then you have some evm 
chain. 

822
00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:11,600
Let's say, Avalanche and you 
know, like use it on there and 

823
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,200
then, you know, Axl are is like 
a solution that so that somebody

824
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,100
can move it over. 
But of course, tax law is also 

825
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:24,000
its own Block Chain. 
So do you do you think what kind

826
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,800
of things do you see like 
running on the axle? 

827
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,400
Our chain itself? 
Did you ever see for example, 

828
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,100
people developing? 
Like, I don't know. 

829
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:35,300
Let's say, putting something 
like a permissionless, cosm was 

830
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,700
a main there or general smart 
Contracting environment or like 

831
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,900
are like what? 
What kind of functionality can 

832
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,100
the axler chain? 
You can be put in there in the 

833
00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:48,100
future. 
Yeah, great question. 

834
00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:53,000
So, you know, I think the core 
problem that we're trying to 

835
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,900
solve is interoperability, 
right? 

836
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:59,400
So, and the way we want to see 
the future is that developers, 

837
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,400
get to decide where they want to
build, how they want to build 

838
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,000
but underneath it. 
They have a set of protocols, 

839
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,100
you know, and infrastructure. 
They can rely on to go cross 

840
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:10,100
chain, right? 
So this is our ultimate goal. 

841
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:14,400
So in that model, right? 
We want to build the 

842
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,700
infrastructure and stack. 
We're Uppers are empowered to go

843
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:19,900
and build, you know, on evm 
chains, right? 

844
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,200
Own Cosmos. 
Based chains on whatever they 

845
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,200
really want. 
And then, you know, and axilla, 

846
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,400
just helps them to communicate 
and go cross chain and be, you 

847
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,500
know, a service provider Network
in some sense that they can, 

848
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:34,300
they can do those things. 
On top of the axle Network 

849
00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:37,900
itself with developers, be able 
to build, you can certainly 

850
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:42,300
build some things and, you know,
I think we may open up kind of 

851
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:45,500
Cosmopolitan for the purposes 
that will want to customize some

852
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:49,000
of the Finley interoperability 
protocols and things like that 

853
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,200
down the line and allow people 
to unboard new chains easier 

854
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,600
right now. 
If you want to unboard the new 

855
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,500
chain, if it's an evm chain, 
like we build it so like you can

856
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:58,600
on board in 10 minutes, so it's 
pretty straightforward for 

857
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,000
Bitcoin. 
We have a module that we're 

858
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,400
working on or Cosmos, you know, 
it's IBC compatible, so it's 

859
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,300
going to integrate it at the 
protocol layer for other chains.

860
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:09,200
You may need to push another 
module, but, you know, we want 

861
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,500
to make it easier so that maybe 
as a developer, you can just 

862
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,300
write another smart contract 
that allows you to translate 

863
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:17,500
this message. 
Message from a particular 

864
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:21,700
ecosystem to be routed by the 
axle network with all the other 

865
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:24,500
networks that are connected with
right without having to write, 

866
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:26,900
like a fool Cosmos module in 
past the governor's, proposal 

867
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:30,100
down the line, and things like 
that, but on its own kind of 

868
00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:31,800
solvent interoperability across 
chain. 

869
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,600
Messages is just such a 
demanding requirement. 

870
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,500
And, you know, you need a lot of
throughput, you need to optimize

871
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,900
for this use case and you know, 
we're designing Axel Network to 

872
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:46,300
kind of optimize for this use 
case as opposed to as a As 

873
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:49,300
another developer environment. 
I think there's a lot of 

874
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:53,200
projects where optimized for, 
you know, JavaScript development

875
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,100
or solidity development or rust 
development. 

876
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,500
And I think they're a lot of the
doing a fantastic job. 

877
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:03,500
So we want to, you know, connect
those ecosystems on the actual 

878
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:06,500
Network itself already process 
and tens of thousands of 

879
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:09,400
transactions per day just for 
cross chain message passing. 

880
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,200
I wouldn't necessarily, you 
know, start building the 

881
00:46:12,207 --> 00:46:15,400
application on that and I think 
will want to remain as a service

882
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,600
provider. 
In some sense. 

883
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,300
Yeah, that makes sense. 
I mean, one application is that,

884
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:22,700
you know, we've had a bunch of 
conversations on, it's kind of 

885
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:27,500
like an interesting. 
I think sort of product on 

886
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:29,900
etherium. 
You have something like gnosis 

887
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:33,600
safe, which is the Smart 
contract wallet and, you know, 

888
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,800
that's pretty nice because you 
can have, you know, multisig you

889
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,100
can have, you know, maybe some 
sort of programmability, you can

890
00:46:40,107 --> 00:46:42,900
have different types of things. 
But, you know, it's in the 

891
00:46:42,908 --> 00:46:45,900
etherium thing. 
It doesn't function cross. 

892
00:46:46,100 --> 00:46:51,000
Chain, and in general, like, you
know, cross chain wallets, don't

893
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:52,800
I mean, there's no great 
solution. 

894
00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:55,900
There's not like one wallet. 
You can use across like 

895
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,400
different ecosystems. 
You have, you know, on Cosmos, 

896
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,200
you have something I kept below.
Okay, functions, great on Cosmos

897
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,700
change, but like doesn't 
function anywhere else, Solana 

898
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:07,900
your Phantom, great over there, 
but like doesn't we do much 

899
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:11,000
else, you know, etherium you 
have a metal mask. 

900
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,100
And so this this idea of like, 
okay. 

901
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:15,900
Can you have like some kind of 
universal programming? 

902
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,600
Will wallet. 
And of course, I guess one way 

903
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:26,700
of doing that might be that you 
have actually like a chain or 

904
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,500
some place that custody is 
assets and all these different 

905
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:34,200
chains and then, you know, I 
could just have one private key 

906
00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:37,900
on that chain, and I send a 
message to that chain and then 

907
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:42,800
that emits, like, transactions 
on another chain to like, you 

908
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,800
know, for example, stay key 
theorem or like, Swap. 

909
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,500
You came on Eunice while but 
like there's like an 

910
00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:51,900
interesting. 
I think an interesting kind of 

911
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:55,500
product a year. 
Have you thought about this? 

912
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:59,200
And how do you see that sort of 
playing without the axle or 

913
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,400
stack? 
You know, I think kind of a 

914
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,700
building Universal crushing 
walls, you know, is one of the 

915
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:08,800
top, I think use cases of 
interoperability, right? 

916
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,700
And it kind of goes back to the 
things. 

917
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:13,500
We talked about earlier is that,
you know, allowing users to 

918
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,800
interact with all of these 
ecosystems and apps. 

919
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,900
It's in an easy way from a 
single wallet. 

920
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,800
And I think the way that this, 
you know, will play out is that 

921
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:27,100
you do need a combination of, I 
guess asset transfer and message

922
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,300
passing to make those Universal 
wallets, right? 

923
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:32,600
And I think, you know, it seems 
like you already have some great

924
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,800
design ideas Brian, right? 
But you know, I think you know, 

925
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,200
if I were to invest adjusted 
serve similar right, where you 

926
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,100
have potentially some smart 
contracts that are living on 

927
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,700
different chains or as a user, 
you know, you authorized to 

928
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:45,500
interact with those smart 
contracts, right. 

929
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,600
And those Tracks. 
Allow you to have your balances 

930
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:53,200
on different ecosystems. 
Maybe even the way people send 

931
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,200
money to is through Universal 
like handle that, you know, can 

932
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,900
be used to uniquely identify 
you, write or universe or 

933
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:03,100
identifier QR codes, whatever 
you want. 

934
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:08,400
And then underneath it the 
wallet providers or the daps and

935
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,800
the user, they get to interact 
with those contracts Shuffle. 

936
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,000
The quiddity back and forth. 
If they needs to be shuffled 

937
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,800
messages, if they need to be. 
And you know, all of that 

938
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,100
experience is a lot smoother. 
So I I think it's a great 

939
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,300
example and I do think we're 
going to see something like 

940
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:24,900
this. 
Start appearing over the coming 

941
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:29,200
years. 
Yeah, I mean, I guess 11. 

942
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,600
I don't know if that was one 
way. 

943
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,100
One could build. 
It may be right. 

944
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,600
Might be as a cosmos chain and 
then you could you could maybe 

945
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,900
use IVC to connect with other 
Cosmic chains and you something 

946
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:43,600
I get asked a lot to connect 
with like the rest of the 

947
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,900
blockchain universe, but who 
knows? 

948
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:51,100
I mean, yeah, definitely I mean 
and in that case, I think you 

949
00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:53,400
know, you can build it like on 
the cosmos, right? 

950
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,600
And then kind of use the IBC 
axle. 

951
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,500
Stack to talk to other networks.
Similarly. 

952
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:01,800
You can build your logic 
wherever you want. 

953
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,500
Right? 
Like, you can, you can build it 

954
00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:05,600
like an avalanche or Solana if 
you want. 

955
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:10,300
And then again, you know, use 
like the axilla protocol to send

956
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:12,000
messages to other ecosystems, 
right? 

957
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,100
So so in that sense, as a 
developer of that wall, this is 

958
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:19,700
really allows you to pick 
wherever wherever you want to 

959
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:22,300
host your logic, right? 
Which application layer logic 

960
00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:25,900
were your core functionality is 
going to live and then you The 

961
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:30,300
interoperability protocols to 
communicate and interact with 

962
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,500
other ecosystems. 
See, when you look to the future

963
00:50:33,500 --> 00:50:37,200
of axle are, what are the 
hardest problems that are head? 

964
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:40,000
Yeah. 
I mean, you know, I think it's a

965
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:43,600
combination of will continue to 
build technology, right? 

966
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,700
In a, in an efficient way, 
continue to integrate more 

967
00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:52,300
chains, more assets improving 
security along the way, you 

968
00:50:52,300 --> 00:50:55,600
know, reducing the gas costs 
reducing latency. 

969
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,600
And you know, working with a lot
of the developers to teach them 

970
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,400
and to educate them. 
How do you write applications in

971
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:04,900
a cross chain environment? 
Right. 

972
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:08,900
How do you, how do you think in 
this new different Paradigm 

973
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,200
programming model? 
Yeah, so I think all of those 

974
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,700
things are, you know, challenges
but also that's where, you know,

975
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:19,900
the rewards and opportunities 
are right and you know to us 

976
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,700
that's what served exciting. 
The exciting aspect of it is 

977
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:25,100
that we would get to change the 
way. 

978
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:29,800
The ecosystem can scale, and I 
think it is quite quite needed 

979
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:33,800
to continue growing. 
Can you talk also a little bit 

980
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,600
about, you know, kind of like 
the road map or, you know, 

981
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,900
exactly to roll outside are 
coming. 

982
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:43,100
You mentioned. 
Evm chains, right? 

983
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:46,700
So I think there's like, any one
of the initial focus on the TVM 

984
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:49,000
chains. 
Like, yeah, so talk a little bit

985
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,400
about like, you know, where's 
that that and like what comes 

986
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,700
afterwards and what would be, 
you know, it kind of did the 

987
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:58,900
ways people can actually 
interact with Axl are in the 

988
00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:02,500
coming year. 
Yeah, so, you know the initial 

989
00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:06,700
rollout that we started doing 
focus it on connection between 

990
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:10,400
cause machines and AVM change it
so, you know columns change we 

991
00:52:10,408 --> 00:52:13,600
can easily on board through. 
IBC got a pretty straightforward

992
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,500
for evm change. 
We also program that on the 

993
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:20,500
network layer so you can on 
board any DM chain, you know in 

994
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:23,000
10 or 15 minutes assume in the 
validator supported, right? 

995
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:28,700
So it's incredibly easy and very
straightforward to do and you 

996
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:30,000
know, we're continuing to work 
on. 

997
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,700
Going module, that would allow 
to unboard, you know, Bitcoin 

998
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:36,800
and similar types of 
proof-of-work Cannon, Legacy 

999
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:43,200
ecosystems and we're, you know, 
opening up the SDK and a set of 

1000
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,900
apis that would allow developers
to interact and talk across all 

1001
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,000
these different chains, right? 
So this is something I'm pretty 

1002
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,300
excited about right now. 
If you want to integrate and 

1003
00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:58,000
move assets back and forth. 
There is a simple JavaScript SDK

1004
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,200
that we're going to be releasing
that allows. 

1005
00:53:00,300 --> 00:53:03,700
As you to do those, those calls 
in a niche in an easy way, you 

1006
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:06,200
know, you can integrate bridge 
and functionalities in your 

1007
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,900
decks or your defy application. 
But then from there, we're going

1008
00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:13,600
to enable this SDK that will 
allow you to talk directly to 

1009
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,800
the Gateway contract, right? 
Or directly from your dap front 

1010
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,400
end and talk with other 
ecosystems. 

1011
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,200
So, that's something. 
We'll be certain to roll out 

1012
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,300
soon. 
And that's how we envisage. 

1013
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:28,000
Most of the developers will 
interact with axilor and other 

1014
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,600
ecosystems. 
Well, thanks so much Sega. 

1015
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,000
It's been really a pleasure to 
like happy on to like learn 

1016
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,000
about actual art and kind of 
share this with our audience and

1017
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,200
I think it's been it's been 
exciting to, like, follow along.

1018
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,900
And I'm super, yeah, excited to 
see see how it evolved. 

1019
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:48,400
So, I mean, I think for me with 
wood has actually been 

1020
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,600
interesting about 
interoperability was that when, 

1021
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:56,400
like, IBC launched, I was really
surprised how good the user 

1022
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,800
experience was. 
And, and of That's still pretty 

1023
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,400
limited, right? 
Because it's just it's just 

1024
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,800
called most, right? 
Doesn't really work well. 

1025
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,900
And then he gets much worse when
you have like, let's say 

1026
00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:09,900
interoperability between 
different. 

1027
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:12,900
I don't know, because often you 
have different Wallets on each 

1028
00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:16,900
side and stuff like that. 
So I'm I'm excited about, you 

1029
00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:20,300
know, what things like axler 
will enable by having this like 

1030
00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:23,400
Smooth seamless interoperability
across chains because I think 

1031
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,100
it's just going to be enormous 
like what that enables. 

1032
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:29,100
Yeah, for sure. 
Well, it was great chatting, 

1033
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:31,200
Brian, and thanks for all the 
questions. 

1034
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:32,700
Always a pleasure chatting with 
you. 

1035
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:37,100
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1036
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,100
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1037
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,400
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1038
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,500
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1039
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,700
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1040
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:50,800
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast. 

1041
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,200
Go to epicenter, .t V /, 
subscribe for a full list of 

1042
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,900
places where you can watch and 
listen, while you're there, be 

1043
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:58,000
sure to sign up for the 
newsletter. 

1044
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,700
So you get new episodes in your 
inbox as they're released if you

1045
00:55:01,707 --> 00:55:04,700
want to interact with us guests 
or other podcast listeners, you 

1046
00:55:04,700 --> 00:55:07,500
can On Twitter, and please leave
us a review on iTunes. 

1047
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:10,200
It helps me find the show and 
we're always happy to read them.

1048
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,600
But thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.