1 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,500 Welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the 2 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:19,300 Technologies project and people are driving decentralization and 3 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:22,100 the blockchain revolution, I'm Felix your host for this 4 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:24,400 episode's today. We're speaking with fig 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,900 co-founder of squid, router squid is a cross-shaped swap and 6 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:32,800 liquidity routing protocol. Welcome fake to epicenter likes. 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,000 Bill x-rays opinion. We generally start by like sort 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,000 of going into what God's our guests into crypto. 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,200 So would be interested to hear your background. 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,600 How you wound up in the space? Sure. 11 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:54,600 So I studied medicine in University which very sounds 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,700 very far from crypto is really interesting. 13 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:02,100 It's a combination of like really complex systems and you 14 00:01:02,108 --> 00:01:06,200 get to work with people but it wasn't creative enough. 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,400 I thought you don't want to be on the operating table and your 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,000 surgeon comes in. And he says, and this great idea 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,500 last night. I'm going to try out on you and 18 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:21,300 you really want your your doctor to be doing something 19 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:24,600 evidence-based, following, the protocol link word for word. 20 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:29,900 And so I wanted to try the things, I left Madison and I 21 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,100 went to New York and slept on captures to make it work. 22 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:37,600 And also started to learn to code and worked as a ux designer 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,100 as well. So I worked as a developer and 24 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:42,500 designer for different startups for a while. 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,500 And I was musician as well during that time. 26 00:01:46,500 --> 00:01:49,200 And one of the couches that I slept on was of this like Giga 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,700 genius, friend of mine, who works as an algorithmic Trader. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,600 And he Told me about markets and how he have all these Bots, like 29 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,200 fighting each other in the market and buy the microsecond. 30 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:06,200 I was just really fascinated by how similar that was the 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,600 medicine. It's this constantly changing 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,300 system that you can't really solve this a like it's always 33 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:16,300 moving and it's also you get these symptoms that are the 34 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:18,900 result of the like wider wider world. 35 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:21,200 In the case of markets been in the body. 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,200 It's what have you been exposed to in your in your environment, 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,700 your diet, whatever? So I got really interested in 38 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:32,000 finance and got a job in traditional Finance, but while I 39 00:02:32,008 --> 00:02:35,400 got while I started that job, I also was getting to crypto. 40 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:39,100 So I just started seeing these inefficiencies in my day job 41 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:41,900 which could be automated by Krypton. 42 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:44,900 I just thought I had to be the future or at least part of the 43 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:48,100 future and crypto is also Super Creative. 44 00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:52,500 It was really complex system so it's just perfect and quit my 45 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:55,500 job and traditional Finance to go. 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,100 Crypto full-time, and my first year out, I spent a lot of time 47 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:01,800 traveling and got really interested in interoperability. 48 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:06,400 I spent a lot of the traveling was particularly to go visit 49 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:10,000 leaders in the space people who had designed some form of 50 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:13,400 interoperability protocol consensus protocol and trying to 51 00:03:13,408 --> 00:03:15,000 build up an understanding of these things. 52 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,700 And after all of that traveling, I really found my axle has 53 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:25,500 vision and their Founders to be the most impressive and the most 54 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:29,300 compelling for me. So I decided at that point as 55 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:33,100 well, the squid we had met my co-founders and squid team has 56 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:37,600 started building. So we all decided to commit to 57 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,600 axler and start building on the protocol and here we are. 58 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:43,800 That's awesome. Yeah, that's a cool history. 59 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,200 I think glad that you didn't become the next Elizabeth Holmes 60 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,800 and made a Terran house, like Yeah, it's a quite interesting. 61 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,600 How the yeah, did I still like large systems? 62 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,300 I guess, generally the this coordination problems and how 63 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:00,300 you can end up in crypto from different angles. 64 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:03,600 This is quite interesting. So yeah, I guess you're 65 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,500 mentioned already. Axl are, and then a bunch of 66 00:04:06,508 --> 00:04:08,200 things that we definitely want to talk about. 67 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,600 But maybe I initially we can just focus on squid itself and 68 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,600 like maybe trying to approach it from the angle of, you know 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,300 what's what sort of the problem that you saw that that squid is 70 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:21,399 in the end solving? Yes. 71 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,800 Sure. So like squid came out of The 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,500 experience. We were all having Indie Fest 73 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,700 summer so Indie Fest. Summer back in 2020. 74 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,200 You had ethereum was starting to get product. 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,800 Would defy was getting product Market fit. 76 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,700 And the theory was getting a lot of use gas prices were spiking. 77 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:42,300 So and also these new L ones like Avalanche and polygons. 78 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,300 we're popping up, roll up, started popping up and every 79 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,000 time you needed to go and try a new application on one of these 80 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,300 ecosystems, you had to Do all these things to get there, so we 81 00:04:53,308 --> 00:04:57,800 needed to bridge your funs over. Maybe need to get U STC across. 82 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,200 You need to get gas because you couldn't use this new a new 83 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:02,800 application. If you didn't have gas in the 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:08,200 blockchain, And to do that, you had to visit a bunch of new 85 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,300 websites. You haven't had to click up to 86 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,800 20 30 times and in crypto every time you try something new, it's 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,200 really scary because you don't know if it's a scam website for 88 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,200 one, but you don't have the protocols safe and just the user 89 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,700 experience in general was, it was atrocious. 90 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:27,700 We thought, and also we're interested in, we're aware of 91 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:30,400 axler and just getting more and more bullish on interoperability 92 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,600 generally because just seemed like, there was no other option 93 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,600 that these. He's Roll-Ups of blockchains 94 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,500 would have to form some kind of internet. 95 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,200 And then Senator blockchains the same vision that because Mars 96 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,700 has had. And so we decided to build 97 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:51,400 something in interoperability and we started with the most 98 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,100 basic primitive you can have in in really any crypto 99 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:59,200 application, which is sending money somewhere and in order to 100 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:05,600 do that you actually need to swap and so squid is Primarily 101 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,300 like the, the core feature is a swap which you can say go from 102 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:11,400 native USD, see, on one chain to Native viewers to see on 103 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,900 another, or you can swap to the gas token, insult to anything. 104 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:20,800 And then once we have that swap, we also build the architecture 105 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,300 so it's fully generalizable then you can do payments across chain 106 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:28,500 so you can do. So you have you SEC on Avalanche 107 00:06:28,500 --> 00:06:30,400 and you want to buy an fto on ethereum? 108 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,900 You're able to swap your USD, see on our be launched into 109 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:36,900 route. Teeth and ethereum and then 110 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:39,400 purchase then ft and send it to your account in the same 111 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,300 transaction. So we want one, click for 112 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:44,800 everything. You should be able to do any 113 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,200 action, the cross chain that you would have been able to do 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,500 single chain. And also, we've just brought in 115 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,600 everything is an under 20 seconds, as well. 116 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:57,500 Something with, maybe we talk about that later, but time is a, 117 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,700 is something in Christian, which really hinders you acts. 118 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:04,400 It's a often 20 minutes to do a swap. 119 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:08,900 And we we've done some amazing things to bring it down. 120 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,800 Really exciting about that. Yeah, awesome. 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:12,900 Yeah, that's definitely get into dead. 122 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:18,600 So I guess generally you is it fair to say that you are sort of 123 00:07:18,608 --> 00:07:22,200 focusing on the layer of like the user experience more like 124 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,400 actually and maybe the developer experience to versus like you 125 00:07:27,407 --> 00:07:31,300 know starting to build like an entire interoperability protocol 126 00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:35,500 which I guess or like a bridge system which It feels like a lot 127 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:39,300 of the other like systems that do bridging try to do and then 128 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:44,600 maybe that ends up being like too much work and you're sort of 129 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,800 ability to rely on XLR. For that part is is what enables 130 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,900 you to like, improve mostly on the ux. 131 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:53,200 Is that is that fair? Yeah, I think that that's really 132 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,800 fast. That's One of the luckiest 133 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,600 things that's happened to us. So the best decisions is to be, 134 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,300 we've been able to focus completely on the developer 135 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:07,300 experience and user experience layer and axilla can focus 136 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:13,100 purely on the infrastructure, security and openness at their 137 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:16,100 protocol. So we have this really symbiotic 138 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:19,600 relationship with them where we both have the same incentives. 139 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,200 Real out, we're both moving the same direction but have much 140 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,900 more focused. Product strategies than maybe 141 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:32,000 some of our competitors have and that allows us to, to reduce the 142 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,200 scope. And really, the whole thing in 143 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:40,100 question is about reducing complexity, when I feel a lot of 144 00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:42,700 cross chain models actually increasing complexity. 145 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,000 We're really lucky to be partnered with Axl are so that 146 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,900 we can. We can just focus on very simple 147 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,200 as little things as possible and make Mike really reliably and 148 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:58,000 quickly something. And is it like that Axl are that 149 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,600 in themselves? Like, I guess. 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,900 How is the difference between like, trying to like use Excel 151 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:06,200 are yourself? First is like using squid is, is 152 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,400 that just that extra, maybe doesn't have that focus on ux 153 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,800 or, or you just like, sort of you are more expert, you have 154 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,000 more expertise. They're essentially, is that 155 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,700 what it is or quickly axle are as blockchain. 156 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,900 It's Cosmos chain, which connects other blockchains. 157 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:27,800 So, Every message that you want to send between the Avalanche 158 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,600 and polygon or aetherium, and I will trim or the cosmos and 159 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,400 etherium. Now, Is validated and verified 160 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,700 by the validator set that is on the axle blockchain. 161 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:43,600 So it's a similar method to proof of steak. 162 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,500 You have 66 percent of the validated, his vote that 163 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:50,700 something is valid. And once they've done that, then 164 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:54,800 you can send a message across chains and what Axl, our ships 165 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,100 with is the ability to send any message across chain. 166 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:03,700 So you can call any contract. And you can also send Value 167 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:05,500 across chain. You can Bridge tokens. 168 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:11,400 But if you want to do something as a user, that's quite limited 169 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,100 you, you need to take a lot of steps. 170 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:18,400 So you might need to, I'll go into how Squid Works. 171 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,000 This is what we're doing behind the scenes. 172 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,100 So you have your CC on, polygon anyone, to get you SC, see an 173 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:27,300 avalanche in order to do it without squid, you'd need to 174 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:31,200 swap eur/usd, see on polygon into axilla u.s. 175 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,200 DC which is Abridged form of usec on ethereum. 176 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:40,100 Then you'd go to acts as website and Bridge, the axle, you FCC to 177 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:44,500 I think it was Avalanche were going to and then you'd go to a 178 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:47,500 swap protocol and you swap actually your CC for Native you 179 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:51,500 SC. See an avalanche and What squid 180 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:55,600 does is it has rapper contracts around the axilla Gateway. 181 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,800 It's called acts like a Gateway contracts, which allow you to 182 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,400 automate the whole process. So you can do the swap the 183 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,300 bridge in the Swap. All in one click and you can 184 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:08,400 also add on more functions that we certainly banging of teas and 185 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:11,100 getting into staking position, you might not. 186 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,000 So I think axilla that's a killer is focused on the core 187 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,500 security and the ability to maintain this fully 188 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:22,600 generalizable messaging and That connecting two more chains. 189 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,100 They're building really amazing in relay infrastructure. 190 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:29,800 But squid is more the application layer and the 191 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,300 developer experience layout. Where if you want to add cross 192 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,900 chains, your does a lot of things you need to do like 193 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:42,200 paying gas across chain. You need to coordinate contracts 194 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,400 on multiple chains, that once you need to be able to tell the 195 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,600 user, if this transaction is complete or not. 196 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,000 Because that's not actually quite not that simple. 197 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:54,400 In crust chain. You you have to realize that 198 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,600 it's click complete on the source chain complete on our 199 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,700 slide and then on the destination chain and report 200 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:03,800 that and user-friendly way. And so squid solving all of 201 00:12:03,808 --> 00:12:06,700 those issues around the developer experience and the 202 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,800 communication of of crust chain which axler isn't focusing on 203 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,200 its much. That's right, that's what we 204 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,900 call. So you are essentially building 205 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:22,600 a bunch of these rapper contracts around Different like 206 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,800 dex's on the different chains. For example, how do you I guess, 207 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:33,700 you know, choose Which which taxes to support or yeah. 208 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,500 What, what it, what to build in general? 209 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:37,000 I guess, because I guess there's a lot, right? 210 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,600 You also said like, nft buying do you already like ask you 211 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,300 users, do you see like I guess generally where the tibialis or 212 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:48,600 something like that? How do you how do you go about 213 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,000 that? Yeah. 214 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,800 It's been it's been really simple actually. 215 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,500 The deck says We have connected to Every Chain, which actually 216 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:02,700 supports, which is most of the evm chains, most of the major 217 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,100 ones. And then we've partnered with 218 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:08,300 really, as many taxes, we can on each chain. 219 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:11,300 So we have Partnerships with the main decks on every chain now 220 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:13,700 except aetherium. We got pancakes while, but I 221 00:13:13,708 --> 00:13:17,700 think is going public today so I can talk about it polygon. 222 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:21,400 We've got quick swap still as well from Moonbeam who baseball 223 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,400 conselho we've got so we just made Partnerships with the these 224 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,500 decks Has and the partnership. There is Will integrate your 225 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:35,500 contracts so that our Christian swept volume routes through your 226 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,600 protocol and you get volume from it. 227 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:43,800 And in return, you integrate our front front end widget so that 228 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,900 you can upgrade your swap interface to have Christian 229 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:51,600 swaps as well. So, we just gone on a 230 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,200 Integrations Bree getting training integrate as many taxes 231 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,900 as possible. And then in terms of The Wider 232 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:01,600 use cases, I kind of tease and stacking widgets. 233 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,800 I think for now it makes more sense for the partners to use 234 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,600 our SDK to build a specific application with squid. 235 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,600 And we've got a lot of cool developer tools for that but 236 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,300 because every, I think it's less feasible for us to build fully 237 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,700 generic tools for every single application out there. 238 00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:27,800 Like at some point, we have to make Decision to have a a tool 239 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,600 which the partner can go and customize themselves. 240 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,500 So yeah, that's why we're currently shipping. 241 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,200 We've got tools for buying and I've teased tools are staking 242 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,400 tools for depositing across chain and the plan with those is 243 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,500 to have more of a Shopify experience, where you go to the 244 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:47,500 squid website, and you've got this application on product, you 245 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:51,800 want to sell 1/2 people to be able to buy with crypto, and you 246 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,500 take a developer tools and plug in a little bit of your code, to 247 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:58,100 make a custom. And then you'll be able to buy 248 00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:03,300 by across change, using any token in your mother, Right at 249 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,000 the super cool. So you re mentioned right, 250 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,700 there's this widget, there is a bunch of these customization 251 00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:13,400 ability. There's SDK API is so these, 252 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,400 These are sort of the products you you have, can you let go a 253 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:17,800 bit into them and maybe? Yeah. 254 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,900 Who are you, sir? I guess these are essentially 255 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,800 the exes or the apps on the other chains, Right? 256 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,100 Said, correct. The main products we have the 257 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,300 API which is running, a is we've got a back-end behind it and 258 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:36,800 this The API is able to generate call data for. 259 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,800 So generate a transaction which the user can sign to do a 260 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,500 Christian swap to do a purchase. And it also allows you to track 261 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:49,900 the status of these transactions across chain. 262 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,100 So, that's the core core feature. 263 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,400 And then around that, we have an SDK, which makes it really easy 264 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,500 to build front-end apps and and then, these front-end widgets, 265 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:04,000 which are react components or iframes and Those are for 266 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,600 front-end Integrations if you want to just customize and put 267 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,300 into website as fast as possible. 268 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:16,400 That's your option and the users of phase, the API is mostly used 269 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,900 by wallets. So we have integrated into XD 270 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,200 files coming live soon and a few of the names. 271 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,300 I can't save it. Some really big wallets, we will 272 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:30,500 be powering crust chain transfers and swaps inside the 273 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:32,000 wallet. So you never have to leave. 274 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,100 You can This is a huge ux issue, right? 275 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:38,600 You you go into your wallet and someone who's not used to 276 00:16:38,608 --> 00:16:42,200 crypto. They says, they have a vax B&B 277 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,100 and mattock and then want to swap them, but they can't 278 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:49,200 because they're all on different block chains and to someone who 279 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,800 doesn't know about crypto that would make any sense. 280 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,500 So which it doesn't shouldn't doesn't have to make sense. 281 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:59,300 So now that they've integrated squid, so you be able to swap 282 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:02,400 between any token on in your wallet without even knowing that 283 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:03,800 That they're on different blockchains. 284 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,800 That's something we're really excited about. 285 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,800 Is it constructing this obstructing? 286 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,000 The chainsaw. Yeah, that's that's great. 287 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,300 And congrats on the Partnerships we said already right? 288 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,099 The district or contract is different Texas. 289 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:22,200 Now, I guess like squid is also sort of a decks aggregator in 290 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,700 that sense, where you're trying to find, basically the optimal 291 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:30,900 price between these routes. Can you talk a little bit about 292 00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,300 how how you approach that sort of problem is this? 293 00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:37,000 Something you're like, also like, how much are you focusing 294 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,200 on that? Like I guess optimizing the 295 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:44,200 price that you Surskit. So we have a routing back end, 296 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,300 which is for every request, comparing all the taxes that 297 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:52,800 were supported that we support across chains and finding the 298 00:17:52,808 --> 00:17:54,900 best route to route through them. 299 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,500 And we're also doing that across chain as well and we'll be 300 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,900 building out their capability. Especially as we support the 301 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:06,600 cosmos with dex's like osmosis into ality and present. 302 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,600 You'll be able to route your liquidity through a cross chain. 303 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:13,700 The Decks that has the best price. 304 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,900 So it's not just the best X is within a chain, but the best 305 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:23,100 chain to go to do your swap in this is like a big frame shift. 306 00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:26,200 They think we're the application, specific blockchain 307 00:18:27,500 --> 00:18:31,500 thesis. I guess, like, takes finally 308 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,400 starts to take effect where you have chains. 309 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,600 Like as most of us who have optimized entirely for swapping, 310 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:41,600 and they should be able to out-compete a lot of other 311 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,500 decks. And and so if they can, if they 312 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:50,200 have tools like squid to effectively compare compare them 313 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:55,400 to other dex's, then we can, you know, they can compete in the in 314 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,300 the way that you could system for for swap volume. 315 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,000 And we'll be doing that as well were close to matching costumes. 316 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,400 Now that's awesome. Yeah, that's also equal to 0. 317 00:19:06,408 --> 00:19:10,900 Basically, what you're saying is because like if you swap who 318 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:15,700 probably also paying gas fees and, you know, like these other 319 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:20,100 costs that essentially, maybe an AB chain can optimize more and 320 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:24,000 then in the end, your prize might be better than even if 321 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,100 there's like, let's say less liquidity on osmosis, for a 322 00:19:26,108 --> 00:19:29,700 certain period and only theorem, it might still be cheaper for 323 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,800 you to go through that and then squared is able to optimize from 324 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,700 that Dimension as well. Yeah, exactly. 325 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,100 You got gas phase, definitely been consideration like in 326 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:43,800 Christian generally. Yeah, but you've also got Mev. 327 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,300 So these are chains, like osmosis in Duality are able to 328 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:53,100 optimize their consensus layer specifically so that you can do 329 00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:54,500 an Arbitrage. After each swap. 330 00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:57,900 For example, as Moses has the predator of module and truly 331 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,800 have some really amazing things that building you're able to do 332 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:01,900 things that wouldn't be possible. 333 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:08,700 And in a general evm, Decks and we can hopefully we're hoping to 334 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:12,400 get some kind of revenue from sharing the the Mev from the 335 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,600 swaps that we're out through those taxes. 336 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,900 And it also means we can get better prices because the Mev, 337 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,600 which is captured goes back to the user at the end of the day 338 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,800 as well. Riser. 339 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,700 So you're thinking that like squid itself, would capture 340 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,300 some, some of the movie essentially. 341 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,600 And then you would receive Distributors that correct or, 342 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,300 yeah, I think that's an option for sure. 343 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,400 Also, got other other providers medium world. 344 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:48,300 We have back running Solutions, so you're able to be able to do 345 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:52,700 a background in Arbitrage behind a nice walk on the evm, almost 346 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:57,200 Ups and the user still gets as good execution as they can. 347 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,600 But the Arbitrage which is created Mev, which is created, 348 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,600 after that transaction can be returned back to them. 349 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,900 So it's one of the ways that we're looking at getting revenue 350 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:09,200 for squid, but also even just improving processes for the for 351 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,100 the users. Right there. 352 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:14,100 That's quite interesting. So I guess you had. 353 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:16,300 I was also something that I definitely wanted to get into. 354 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,300 Maybe we're given your like sort of this cross chain 355 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:21,100 infrastructure and like Crossing enemy V. 356 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,800 I guess also like a big topic, where a lot of people expect. 357 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:27,300 Yeah. They are to be a big Market 358 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,500 since I guess. You know, what many on the main 359 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:32,000 chains you have like a sort of flash boards and I guess 360 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,600 somewhat solved maybe a bit the, some of the issues that I'm ABS, 361 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,000 but it gets very complex in the Christian world. 362 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,300 So yeah, I guess I was wondering also is squid-like. 363 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Something wear. Yeah, people like Searchers 364 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:50,500 maybe go to like actually, you know, realize cross chain Mev, 365 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,800 but or also, I guess. Yeah. 366 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,400 You know your approach. So so yeah. 367 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,900 What is this state? I guess right now or like, how 368 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,200 do you expect it to be too user is quit more? 369 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,700 Just for, I don't know. The Traders. 370 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:05,700 Are the people that like, by the totals, like, literally the 371 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,900 users and versus like, you know, like some sophisticated market 372 00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:15,600 makers or something and, and they would I think so that me 373 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,100 being an evening with the crushing space is super early. 374 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:24,800 I think we're just working out how to transfer tokens across 375 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,200 chain effectively and reliably, let alone making that complex 376 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,500 like risky trades and across different Chains. 377 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:37,900 It's still super early, I think and not the front of mind right 378 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:40,000 now. I think, you know, I really 379 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,900 enjoy reading about Mev and understanding it and there was a 380 00:22:42,908 --> 00:22:46,900 lot of really Concerning things, that could happen to the crypto 381 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,000 gifts from generally. If you start getting cross 382 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,900 chain, Mev, you start getting centralization of validator 383 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:56,100 sets, and you get potentially a lot of the Cross chain systems 384 00:22:56,100 --> 00:23:00,800 could start breaking down, but I think that's a long way away. 385 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,700 Realistically something interesting. 386 00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:08,000 I've been thinking recently with quick squid and Mev is around 387 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,600 intense. And so there's no who's been who 388 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,100 of your listeners of, right? This but an intent is essential 389 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,200 to the idea that you can express what you want and you don't 390 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,600 express how it happens and then essentially the market just gets 391 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800 it done for you. It's almost like taskrabbit for 392 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,000 for General compute on blockchains and that's 393 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,300 essentially what squid is doing already. 394 00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:36,200 We have an API which lets you do anything across chain you, tell 395 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,000 us that then we have this big backhand with massive routing 396 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,700 infrastructure which just works out the best route and combines 397 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,700 everything into one tiny package and you can get it done. 398 00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:50,200 So I think what we're building is actually really suited for 399 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,000 that future with ym, Evie's starts to become how things 400 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,400 happen across chain. We've said, we're essentially 401 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,900 building a solver for intense and currently it's exposed by an 402 00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:06,600 API and you go to the front end and use the API to communicate 403 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,800 what you want. But maybe in the future, they'll 404 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,400 be an intent Market where you communicate what you want there 405 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,200 and then squid can be one of these. 406 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,800 So Overs, that is fulfilling orders that requiring question 407 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,400 transactions. Yeah, that's quite interesting. 408 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,800 And I guess you were so right now, the way it works, like you 409 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,000 are essentially paying the axle are feasts for the passing like, 410 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,300 essentially to the XLR validators. 411 00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:36,600 And and then that is sort of taking into account for the 412 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,500 swaps and what not? And then on top you're thinking, 413 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,300 I guess, yeah, maybe going a bit into this business model idea. 414 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:46,100 What how the squid-like generate money? 415 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:50,000 Is it like I guess You know what sort of the options is it like 416 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,100 you know, Madam asked you add like some sort of fee on top and 417 00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:58,400 or this Mev ideas are is there anything else that you can think 418 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,500 of or is there also like some sort of additional thing you 419 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,600 have to pay taxes hours? It is essentially just these 420 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,900 these fees that XLR is charging or is there like some more 421 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:10,500 symbiotic thing between Excellence, quit the died. 422 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,200 So the squid doesn't actually pay any fees to accelerates the 423 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,200 always the user and Currently, everything is just gas phase. 424 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,200 So there's no no phase that actually taken out by either of 425 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,900 us, but I think we're really fortunate as a crypto project in 426 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:30,800 that. Our job is to route a lot of 427 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:36,100 volume and people trade virus will be trading a lot virus. 428 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:38,700 So there's a very simple business model. 429 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,700 You don't have to get into crazy token omics, just you just 430 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,900 charge some basis points and we don't have media plans to do 431 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:51,700 that but I think it's a pretty tried-and-true business model 432 00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:55,900 that we might take out something, which we've had a lot 433 00:25:55,900 --> 00:26:00,600 of demand for is a lot of our partners are in this crypto 434 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,400 black hole, where you don't know how to charge fees and they 435 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,900 integrate squid. And they're like, oh, this is a 436 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,600 way we can, finally charge fees because people are trading a lot 437 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,800 in going in and out of our platform by a squid. 438 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,700 So we have referral, we have not referral fees but essentially 439 00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:19,700 the partner will be able to charge a fee and then we'll take 440 00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:22,000 a portion of that that is going to happen. 441 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,400 That's being built right now. Mev, I think there's room for 442 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,500 that. That's how some of the 443 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:29,700 Architects. Aggregators business models work 444 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,600 with back running. And I think the last one is 445 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:39,300 Imagine gasps earlier and we don't charge anything on gas, 446 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:44,600 but there could be fees on being able to provide really 447 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:47,900 efficient, gas prices. So being able to predict what 448 00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:51,500 the gas price will be in the future or at least taking some 449 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,300 risk for that and being able to just guarantee a price for the 450 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:59,700 use and take a cut because of that it's currently it's the gas 451 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,400 experience and different blockchains is really variable 452 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,700 and Not know very good user experience. 453 00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:09,100 Right, right. Another extension day, a dad? 454 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,300 That's quite interesting. And I do agree like the business 455 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:14,500 model. Probably relatively simple. 456 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:18,000 If you have the volume then I guess you don't need to like 457 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,800 overcomplicated. Yeah. 458 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,800 I think that's that's quite cool and I guess maybe going back a 459 00:27:23,808 --> 00:27:30,800 little bit to the XLR choice so as you mentioned like is there 460 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,400 is there some chance of you guys like adopting multiple message 461 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,900 passing like protocol. All's I guess one could think 462 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:43,800 that maybe you know, some is cheaper or like it helps you to 463 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,100 like even get a better price or yeah. 464 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:49,600 How are you thinking about that? I guess currently. 465 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,000 It seems like quite, you know, you do it. 466 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,100 Axel are mostly. Yeah. 467 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,100 Maybe you can expand a little bit on your thinking there that 468 00:27:56,100 --> 00:28:00,100 would be interesting. I mentioned the benefits earlier 469 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:03,900 why I've having one vertical really gives us a lot of 470 00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:08,300 advantages, we get to focus entirely on what we're doing and 471 00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,100 it reduces the complexity in that system so we can ship 472 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:17,300 faster but we had always committed to integrating CCT P 473 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,500 which is circles transfer protocol and the axilla team 474 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,900 have also been working with circle and we'll be integrating 475 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,600 CTP so that whenever It's possible to do a do a cross 476 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,400 chain swap fire. See, CTP will use that if it's 477 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,600 cheaper, is the or potentially, if it's if it's fast enough as 478 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,500 well, because with access to everything we can, we can do 479 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:47,000 everything in under 20 seconds and CCP them may not be the 480 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,100 case. So we'll be integrating that 481 00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:53,000 whereas we're integrating ABC which is you know, we don't 482 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,800 necessarily see it as a competitor to our Cloud, but 483 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,300 it's part of Acts tires and is a cosmos chain and it's Connected 484 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:03,800 to the entire Cosmos via ABC so will be web be shipping this 485 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,100 very soon but you'll be able to swap any token between any 486 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,900 chains within the cosmos and also between the cosmos and evm 487 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:17,000 and so that has been technically a similar process. 488 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,700 We have to integrate it a different messaging protocol to 489 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:25,700 be able to implement these swaps and transfers, but I think with 490 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:29,100 interoperability protocols that there's less of of a reason to 491 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,000 have multiple supported between the same two chains. 492 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,000 Like, it's not really like the decks aggregation one old, where 493 00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:43,100 you, every new Chain could just having a couple of dads could 494 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,300 for CUNY swapping to play at there and suddenly you've got 495 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:49,500 the 20 different dex's. So you have to have to aggregate 496 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,300 them to be able to provide any tangible experience like any 497 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:58,300 competitive experience but with messaging protocols, the core 498 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:00,100 thing is actually just getting it done and getting it done 499 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:04,400 really securely so we yeah we didn't want to compromise on 500 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,300 that. I'm not I wouldn't be 501 00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:08,800 comfortable integrating the other urgent generalized 502 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,600 messaging protocols When we named them just because of the 503 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,200 security and centralization that they introduced. 504 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,700 And yeah we don't want to have the ground risk of potentially 505 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:23,200 getting it being kind of a hack or even just yeah exposing how 506 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,900 users to that. Ride ride ride. 507 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:27,300 It makes a lot of sense. Cool. 508 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:31,700 And maybe we can ya get a bit into like how this yeah we 509 00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:34,100 mentioned a bit of time Riders, quite important. 510 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:38,000 And in swabs, obviously you guys are very focused on the user 511 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,100 experience and that's probably like I mean after the prize or 512 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:46,000 maybe even on top of the prize, like the most important thing to 513 00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:48,100 like, you know, don't take so much time. 514 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,900 How do you like optimize it how you were able to like do it in 515 00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:54,500 less than 20 seconds and I guess in general? 516 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:57,300 How You improve that even further. 517 00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:00,200 Is that something that you working on with Axl are itself, 518 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,300 or are you doing something there? 519 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:02,900 Or is it? Yeah. 520 00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:06,800 What is like the approach there now to just introduce the 521 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,900 problem a little bit. So the cross chain experience a 522 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:14,000 bridging and, and swapping is can be really slow. 523 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,600 So that you go to the website. You'll say I want to swap from 524 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,800 say oh Bertram Heath to two, polygons mattock and you click 525 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,400 Swap and then an animation appears we've On our website, we 526 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,300 go this beautiful animate cute animations which we made but 527 00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:31,200 you'll sit there and you'll watch the animation of the 22 528 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,000 minutes and then the swap will go through and if you're a new 529 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,100 user you don't you really don't know if it's worked or not or if 530 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:42,000 you've got your money until that 22 minutes is over the user 531 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,900 experiences like is awful. And the reason for that is the 532 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:49,600 is because of finality. So different blockchains of 533 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,900 different finality times in the cosmos, everything is running on 534 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:56,400 tender men. And so that it has Finality but 535 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,000 in the theorem world theory mm main that has finality in about 536 00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:04,300 16 minutes. I'll betray him has Works its 537 00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,600 adds up to about 22 minutes overall in polygon six minutes. 538 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:10,000 So all of these times that they're just far too long to 539 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,900 have any Competitive Edge over by a web to if we want to have a 540 00:32:13,908 --> 00:32:16,800 system which is going to be used a lot like normal people. 541 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,700 And the reason finality is important in crust chain is that 542 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,500 if the bridge is going to give you money on the destination 543 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:28,100 chain, the bridge needs to be sure that it's received money on 544 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,800 this was chain. So it's only ones that the 545 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,500 payment that's received on the source chain is finalized that 546 00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:37,500 it can credit you money on the on the destination chain. 547 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:41,600 And so that's why we have these 20-minute legs with swaps and 548 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,000 squared. And we worked on this with 549 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,700 axilla. They've built a lot of the tech 550 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:50,400 but we the the The architecture is, you have another rapper 551 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,800 contract between squid and axilla, which essentially allows 552 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,200 a service provider to witness your Source chain transaction. 553 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,300 As soon as it's been included on the Chain before it's reached 554 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:06,700 finality and then they can provide the bridged funds out of 555 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:10,500 their own wallet and the destination chain and they can 556 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,800 execute the exact payload which you've requested so, and they 557 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,900 can prove that they've done exactly what the bridge would 558 00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:19,500 have done. In 15 minutes time and they 559 00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:21,100 register that against the contract. 560 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:26,300 So you get you get your Bridge funds, you get them executed 561 00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:30,500 however you want, maybe it's a swap and then 15 minutes later 562 00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:33,900 when the bridge funds come through, they get diverted over 563 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:36,100 to the service providers to pay them back. 564 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:40,000 So it's it's a bit like a loan which has been collateralized by 565 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,800 a cross chain transaction. And if you can prove that you've 566 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,400 loaned for this specific transaction then when that 567 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,600 transaction comes through, get paid back and you can take a 568 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,100 premium over that. Right, that's that's quite cool. 569 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,600 And that these service providers as a. 570 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,700 This is like, you know, I don't know market makers. 571 00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:04,100 Or like, who are these users, like utilizing that. 572 00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:05,400 Is that like something like that. 573 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,300 Yeah, right now, we're running late now. 574 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,600 It's Laura. And it design has a lot of 575 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,100 similarities to do this in 10 system that I told you. 576 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,400 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 577 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,699 So it's, it's very much like the user to It's on a chain 578 00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:24,600 somewhere that they want something that and then it just 579 00:34:24,607 --> 00:34:28,300 happens immediately. And then assert the service 580 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:30,199 provider takes this. Yeah. 581 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:35,600 So it is currently in about takes about 10 seconds on 582 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,300 average up to 20 seconds down to like four seconds, which is 583 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:45,000 totally insane, but we can get it down to basically 584 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,800 instantaneous. Because if you, if you sign the 585 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,600 transaction and send it off to a Different to the relay Earth and 586 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,800 the Relay can send both transactions on the source and 587 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,600 destination of the same time. There's Definitely 588 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,800 technicalities that come in when you start to do things like 589 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,100 that, that's like really aggressive but I think we can in 590 00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,200 the future. Get the the transactions out 591 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,500 times down to essentially, instantly across chain. 592 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,500 There's no reason why you can't provide that service June. 593 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,000 Super excited about it's like we can acknowledge that that's 594 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,300 quite big, right? I think that's You know, 595 00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:25,800 essentially also if you think of across the enemy V, I guess 596 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,200 often the idea is that okay? How do I guarantee I guess the 597 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:36,200 execution on both sides in like an atomic way. 598 00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:40,100 So I guess this infrastructure could sort of help you do that 599 00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,300 as well which might be quite a big use case. 600 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,800 Cool yeah that's very cool that you guys are focusing. 601 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,600 And-and-and that I guess these are the risks they're taking is 602 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:52,600 essentially just okay you get a pass. 603 00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:57,000 Paid a bit later when it actually arrives on your 604 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,300 destination chain. But and you take like a small 605 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:01,900 like I guess premium on that, right? 606 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:02,900 That's what you said. Okay. 607 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,400 Yeah. There's no there's no change in 608 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,500 the security. So you never at risk of losing 609 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:15,700 funds, but there's they can be that the service provider can 610 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:18,600 decide not to fulfill that. So, maybe you have to wait the 611 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,300 full 20 minutes. If, if they break something up 612 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,000 to Cat can service providers compete. 613 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,700 Amongst each other with three in Decorah. 614 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,900 Do we have to, like, choose one that like, will like execute 615 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:33,700 this? Yeah, you can. 616 00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:37,700 Yeah, third, I think that's how we built this in minimum viable 617 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:39,800 product of whom is this intense system, right? 618 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,300 You, it's you declare an advanced, you pay one provider. 619 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,800 You say, yeah. You pay them in advance. 620 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,700 So we've got, we've got the designs for opening it up and 621 00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,300 making it. So that any service provider can 622 00:36:55,500 --> 00:37:00,100 fulfill these transactions, but right now we're just, you know, 623 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,300 it's it works really well. So, I'm doing that for now. 624 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:07,700 Ride ride ride, a very pragmatic here and you're already working 625 00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,100 on a lot. So like, that's that's awesome. 626 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,300 That's quite cool deck. Thanks that's, that's very 627 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:16,500 interesting. Okay, and then, yeah, I think we 628 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,600 probably got her a lot about like the basics. 629 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,300 I think, you know, maybe some anecdotes, you know? 630 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:25,600 I the read your tweets or like I guess there were some issues 631 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,100 with like some of the assets of like other of the bridges 632 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:34,600 protocols and you know, squid was sort of like excellent squid 633 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:37,800 were the ones still active? Can you sort of expand what what 634 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,800 the issues were with this other rigid, protocols and why sort of 635 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,400 the axle? Our design wasn't affected by 636 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,000 that. Maybe yeah. 637 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,900 Yeah, it was. So what happened was multi 638 00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:57,300 chain, which is a name of a another bridging protocol. 639 00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:03,500 Had some issues where users wind able to transfer across chains? 640 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,100 Now, I go into why that happened? 641 00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:09,200 And I don't know if anyone knows yet, maybe they do, but any, 642 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,800 essentially, the assets on a bunch of chains were frozen. 643 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,700 You couldn't move them around, you can exit as it were like. 644 00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:24,300 And so what happened was uses, the the multi chain price, fell 645 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:27,300 and usable trying to get up and get to safety to a theorem or 646 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:31,600 something like and some really interesting thing that happened 647 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,200 was a lot of our competitors people who run other routing 648 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,500 protocols but using different systems other than Axl I had to 649 00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:46,600 stop and the reason for it was that they run point-to-point 650 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,600 systems which so the the underlying network not squid, 651 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,900 not the squid level but the Exile level is running in a 652 00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:57,300 point-to-point system rather than a hub-and-spoke system and 653 00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,500 If you have a point-to-point system, then every, every 654 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,000 connection is unaware of the all the other connections. 655 00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:08,000 So say you're on Phantom, which all the u.s. 656 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000 DC on Phantom was collateralized by multi chain. 657 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:16,600 So it was like usually risk and same multi chain has like the 658 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,400 hack essentially makes multi-chain USD, see really 659 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,200 cheap. So, it's as if you can get 660 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,400 infinite multi-chain, you Assisi, this is the attack 661 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,300 vector, and in a point point system you could tell all Points 662 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:32,200 that you have the full supply of usec on fats. 663 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,300 I'm like you I not and you are going to reach it out to this 664 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,900 real chain and and then swap it for real USD, see, on the other 665 00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:42,100 side, and then in a point-to-point system, you'll be 666 00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:45,600 able to get drain all of the liquidity on all of the points, 667 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,800 but in the hub and spoke model like axilla since you limit the 668 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,600 liquidity that you can drain to the particular spoke because 669 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,200 you're swapping out in the squid model you Could only Swap all 670 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,100 the multi chain you Assisi for axler USD, see on Phantom and 671 00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:07,200 then Redbridge the axle usually see over so that axle are USD. 672 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,400 See still like a pair gives still secure and so the only 673 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,600 thing you could still was this the amount of X values DC, we 674 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,600 have in the liquidity problem on curve of that so-and-so squid 675 00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:24,000 had a really good few days where most of the other protocols had 676 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,600 to actually shut down every chain. 677 00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:29,000 Just so, just to stop this. Attack from happening happening 678 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,700 and we got a lot of volume through. 679 00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:33,300 Yeah, through Phantom, we actually just stayed running 680 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,600 through the whole thing. Even though multi-chain u.s. 681 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,200 DC was at really high risk. We had Traders and Arbitrage, 682 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,200 people who were were keeping, keeping the polls fairly 683 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,900 balanced. So, we got a lot of low volume 684 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:49,300 that a, and it was called coldest. 685 00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:53,100 The axle has design, and like foresight actually play out in a 686 00:40:53,107 --> 00:40:55,700 real situation. Right? 687 00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:58,500 That they are a super interesting to see that. 688 00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:02,000 I guess they were also like other hacks where this sort of 689 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:05,200 drain system. Like I guess one whole egg was 690 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,800 sort of like that too. If I remember correctly that you 691 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,600 know, you basically couldn't infinite and then sort of drain 692 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,300 the liquidity from other chains. So yeah, very, very, very 693 00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:20,000 interesting to see the practice, I guess, because the I Theory 694 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:24,400 Many people can claim many things and maybe gets too 695 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,400 confusing for many or like, people don't even look into it. 696 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,600 So, if you see the it in practice, then obviously, 697 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:35,700 that's, that's great. And And yeah, that's a, that's a 698 00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:39,200 cool, cool episode. Cool, like proof of the, the XLR 699 00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:42,100 architecture. So yeah. 700 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:45,500 I guess we recovered a lot about like the architecture 701 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:49,100 infrastructure. I think maybe we were can slowly 702 00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,900 likes get to wrapping up. I think what would be really 703 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:55,800 interesting is sort of, you know, the use cases? 704 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,300 You guys see. I think you're like already 705 00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:02,300 talking about the obviously the swapping but also you know, 706 00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,700 purchasing and if T is cross chain, is there anything else 707 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:09,700 you want to highlight on sort of the the use case from that you 708 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,700 guys are thinking about or that people in the squid ecosystem 709 00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:18,000 are working on Yeah, the other use cases, I mean, it's anything 710 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,500 you can do single chain, you can now do cross chain, you can pay 711 00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:26,400 with them into, okay. So we're trying to limit it to 712 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,100 certain things just so that we can focus and I think's takings 713 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:32,300 really interesting one. So the liquid staking providers 714 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,900 lending, protocols, and whatever. 715 00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:37,600 All this staking product that is out there. 716 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:41,000 You can. We've got a bunch of Partners 717 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,500 doing this. But you can essentially With 718 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,800 whatever token and you have in your wallet, you can get this 719 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,200 taking product. So it shifts a little bit. 720 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,700 This mental model from the say you have Ethan, your wallet and 721 00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:58,500 you want to land it. You have money in your wallet 722 00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:04,000 and you want to buy this lending product, you want to get a loan 723 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,900 which is denominated in Eve and you can get this apy on that. 724 00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:14,100 If those like I like this integral we Shifting the The 725 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:16,800 focus on that onto the product instead of onto the token. 726 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,600 So you have all these different use cases and you just have 727 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,700 money in your wallet and you want to use the use case use the 728 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,800 product. This is taken as one derivatives 729 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,900 exchanges or another so worked with valet exchange. 730 00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:32,300 And arbitrament, I can with bunch of other exchanges where 731 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,300 in the derivatives exchange, you essentially need to stay qsd. 732 00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,600 See, as collateral to be able to trade derivatives and we're 733 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,300 doing that across chain. So you can move between markets 734 00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:46,000 in a single click and Cosmos. Is something I'm really excited 735 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,000 for because you have all these different app chains which I 736 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,100 really specific use cases. But the onboarding experience 737 00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:54,400 has been like if you thought it was bad in the evm world, like 738 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,200 it's think again, like the cosmos, well is insane so hard 739 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,300 to get assets into a chain to try, something and get gas. 740 00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:07,600 So, I think every Cosmos chain but benefit from and probably 741 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,800 with some speaking with all them, they'll be able to onboard 742 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,800 users from the EDM world and single click and And then, 743 00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:17,800 hopefully the slab chain technology starts to get use 744 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:21,100 your awesome mad sounds, super cool. 745 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:25,200 I'm very excited for the future of squid and you know what you 746 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,400 already achieved and in such a short time. 747 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,700 So yeah, really cool to see like this whole like idea of I guess 748 00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:35,800 the modular architecture is in a way where many people have 749 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,300 talked about and sort of you guys. 750 00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:43,000 I feel like our Like one of the earlier adopters or something 751 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,200 like that where you really like use utilize like the XLR species 752 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,200 and you can sort of expand on a lot of other things. 753 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:54,800 So that's I think a grade, a choice you made there and seems 754 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,400 to like pay off. So we are very excited for you 755 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,200 guys and thanks for coming on and then diving deeper into into 756 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,800 how it all works. And yeah, hope to hope to have 757 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,300 you back on epicenter, maybe in a few Years, when when it's all 758 00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:15,700 like, even further cross-trained, everything and 759 00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,800 see, see where you guys are at. So yeah, thanks Vic for for 760 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,600 being here. Yes, it's good like stuff. 761 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,500 He likes is fun to chat. Thank you for joining us on this 762 00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:28,900 week's episode. We release new episodes every 763 00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:30,900 week. You can find And subscribe to 764 00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:34,700 the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 765 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:37,100 you listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or 766 00:45:37,100 --> 00:45:39,900 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 767 00:45:39,900 --> 00:45:43,600 the epicenter podcast, go to epicenter dot TV /, subscribe 768 00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:46,400 for a full list of places where you can watch and listen, while 769 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,800 you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get 770 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,000 new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 771 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:54,100 If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast 772 00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:56,900 listeners, you can follow Oh us on Twitter and please leave us a 773 00:45:56,908 --> 00:45:59,700 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 774 00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:02,900 happy to read them with thanks so much and we look forward to 775 00:46:02,900 --> 00:45:56,600 being back next week. Oh us on Twitter and please 776 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,300 leave us a review on iTunes helps people find the show and 777 00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,600 we're always happy to read them with thanks so much and we look 778 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:03,800 forward to being back next week.