1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,600 From running a node on your computer, a solo staker to like 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,280 being a institutional grade operator, there's there's a 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,280 couple of things that differ. We tend to over perform the 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,240 network a little bit. We do MEV interest timing games, 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,680 you delay a little bit, block proposal so that you can get a 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,680 little bit more MEV and then like we are the largest 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,480 independent node operator. Welcome to Epicentre, the show 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,560 which talks about the technologies, projects and 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,320 people driving decentralisation and the blockchain revolution. 10 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,680 I'm Frederica ANZ and today I'm speaking with Lazo Sabo who is 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,840 the Co founder of Kin, an institutional great rewards 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,360 platform which offers staking and defy access. 13 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,440 Before I talk with Lazlo, I'd like to tell you about our. 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,400 Sponsors this week If you're looking to stake your crypto 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,040 with confidence, look no further than Course 1 more than 150,000 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,920 delegators, including institutions like bit go Pantera 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,320 capital and Ledger trust course one with their assets. 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,120 They support over 50 block chains and are leaders in 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,320 governance or networks like cosmos, ensuring your stake is 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,280 responsibly managed. Thanks to the advanced MEV 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,120 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 22 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,600 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,360 label note, re stake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 24 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,640 their SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 25 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,240 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,160 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 27 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,600 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,320 Gnosis leads innovation with Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri, 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,600 reshaping open banking and money. 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,040 With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, they're building a more 31 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,520 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 32 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,360 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Gnosis 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Chain offers the same development environment as 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,520 Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 35 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,800 It's supported by over 200,000 ballot errors, making Gnosis 36 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,760 Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 37 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,040 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 38 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,400 governance, where every voice matters. 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,040 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,720 Deploy on the EVM compatible Nosis chain or secure the 41 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,080 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 42 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,200 Start your decentralization journey today at nosis dot IO. 43 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,440 Last, though, it's a It's a pleasure to have you on. 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:28,680 Thanks for having me. So you've been in this space for 45 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,920 quite some time, but maybe let's focus on what happened before. 46 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:37,080 So tell us about your journey leading up to Founding Killing. 47 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,080 So I I'm I did an hospitality school, so nothing related to to 48 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,760 tech or or even crypto. Then I discovered Bitcoin in 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,040 2014. I had a in I had found this guy 50 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,440 very interesting in in Japan actually that was building BRG 51 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,600 wallet. I don't know if you remember it 52 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,040 was one of the largest Bitcoin wallet at the time. 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,880 And, and he explained me Bitcoin and and you know, digital gold 54 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,360 the the old story behind it. So I, I bought my first Bitcoin 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,080 back in Europe and and then in 2016, I had a childhood friend 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,880 that started to work at consensus. 57 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,160 So consensus in 2016 was working at the on variable, which is 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,720 basically trying to to do a decentralized stable coin, like 59 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,240 a type of maker at consensus. And yeah, I was just mind blown 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,960 by this idea of like world computer Etherium decentralized 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,400 applications. So I, I invested it in Etherium 62 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:37,920 in some ether in 2016, but I never, I never really came from 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,800 for, for the, the, the, the financial aspect of it. 64 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,360 I was, I've always, and I think still very bad at like managing 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,960 my own money. Maybe I shouldn't say this on 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,480 the podcast, but so now I came for the kind of the tech and 67 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,120 then like 2017 was the crazy ICO period. 68 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,400 And, and then I was just formal. I was already an an entrepreneur 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:04,120 since 2015 because I launched my tech recruitment company ten 70 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,080 years ago. So also when I started to to 71 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,200 look at at block chains and and crypto in general. 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,160 And in 2017, I was just two things. 73 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,600 First, frustrated to not work with the engineers I was 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,920 working. I was sorry recruiting for other 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,800 companies. I wanted to build products with 76 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,960 them and not recruit them for other companies building Co 77 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,520 products. I want it to be, you know, on 78 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,440 the other side of the of the river. 79 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,120 And then also I was just formal by the blockchain and crypto 80 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:43,320 echo system as a whole. I think I did a first meet up in 81 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,800 2017 in Paris. And when you do a meet up, like 82 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,360 you just find bunch of nerds builders all together. 83 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:57,480 And I was like, OK, a week after I was like, I'm done with 84 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,560 recruitments. I, I, I'm still sure of this, of 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,080 this company in the South of France, They're still, you know, 86 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,640 good friend partners. And I'm like, guys, I need to, I 87 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,320 need to, to try to, to build a company in blockchains. 88 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,680 And that's what I did. There's a lot to unpack here. 89 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:21,640 So how how kind of coming from a hospitality background, how did 90 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,360 you get a lack up in kind of tech recruiting? 91 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,240 Yeah, there was I think just my, my, my friends in Marseille, 92 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:37,760 Salsa friends at the time just went to be and said, Hey, we, we 93 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,240 want to build a company. We don't know what to build. 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,360 We just want to be entrepreneurs. 95 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,720 And because we don't think we, we any other companies will will 96 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,480 like to hire us. We we are not recruitable. 97 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,040 This is a great start start for tech recruitment company. 98 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,240 Kind of like trying to kind of help unrecruitable people. 99 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,720 That's right, exactly right. You're the best consultants 100 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,600 because at least you, you, you can, you can tell not to, to, 101 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,760 you know, candidates not to, to look like us at the time so that 102 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,040 they had they get more chance to, to get hired. 103 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,160 But yes, and, and it came to me and, and I was still finishing 104 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,560 my hospitality school. Say, Hey, you are from Paris and 105 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:35,160 tech is, is very centralized in France and you might know more 106 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,080 companies that want to recruit engineers. 107 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,400 So do you, do you want to be part of the journey? 108 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,000 Why we find the engineers You, you have this relationship with 109 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,760 the start-ups that want to recruit. 110 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,280 And I'm like, yeah, well, guys, OK, but you know, I need to 111 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:50,560 finish my schooling and everything. 112 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,120 So if it doesn't work after months because I don't have time 113 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,320 or I'm not just delivering, you know, we'll shake hands and, 114 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,520 and, and, and you'll move on. So that's we, we started and it 115 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:07,160 kind of worked and, and then I got just very, very excited 116 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,880 about the tech industry in general. 117 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,760 I like and and very excited about engineers. 118 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,600 For me was. Kind of the. 119 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,600 Good people, the artists of like the 21st century. 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,960 It's like, I think that it was the best part of my job is like, 121 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,880 sometimes it was a hard job. Recruiting is a hard job. 122 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,360 You have to, you know, scrap numbers on LinkedIn and then 123 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,080 call like 100 people. There's 70 people that won't be 124 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:38,200 interested or even not answering you with 27 people that are, you 125 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,200 know, answering you but say they're not interested. 126 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,480 Two people that literally insults you. 127 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,120 It's like, oh, where did you find my number? 128 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,280 And maybe one person saying like, Oh yeah, maybe this job 129 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,800 might be interesting for me. So it's a hard one, but 130 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,600 sometimes you have a discussion with 30 minutes an hour. 131 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,840 Was an engineer talking about like AIO at the time, you know, 132 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,240 blockchain and and you, you, you just like find this person so 133 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,560 passionate. It's like, wow, if I get to work 134 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,720 with this person every day, my life would be better. 135 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,320 That that that's, that's a super nice blockchain origin story. 136 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,000 Let's talk about how you honed in on kind of the staking space 137 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,720 because kind of kin kind of started off any theorem staking. 138 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,640 So how did you identify this as a target for your for your own 139 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,640 company? Yep. 140 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,360 So 2017 eighteen from the recruitment background, the only 141 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,320 thing I knew was like I try. I was trying to put C VS on 142 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:40,400 Shane wallets for candidates that would certify the fact that 143 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,960 he worked for this company and on this mission and and was the 144 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,720 next employee he would he would show certification there maybe 145 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,720 with zero knowledge. You would, you know, kind of 146 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,120 like a decentralized professional ID. 147 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,000 Then we of obviously people would try to expand this to the 148 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,520 French state in 2018. They were like, what the fuck 149 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,520 are you talking about? So, so then we pivoted and in 150 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,160 2019 we did our first blockchain as a service platform at the 151 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,200 time in France, consensus actually had a office in France 152 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,720 and and most of the proof of concept being done were on 153 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,880 private blockchain. So I kind of like we're 154 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,760 deploying like private theorem, Quran, Corda, these kind of 155 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,400 stuffs where it's like today sounds, sounds terrible. 156 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,000 And I think I think they were and in but I was looking at the 157 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,440 staking space from 2018. I had friends at Cosmos like 158 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,920 Gotima and, and others that launching or even like, you 159 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:41,000 know, the Ogs like Chorus one stick fish P2P. 160 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,800 They were launching validators or participating in the Cosmos 161 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,920 network. For me, it was just too, too 162 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,680 much of a retail market. I didn't understand it right. 163 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:56,320 Like I couldn't grasp the, the, the understanding of it and 164 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,840 seeing at the time buys and shells. 165 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:05,280 Joe Le Lewis explaining that the platforms exchanges at the time 166 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:10,600 in 2019 and 2020 will be able to offer staking to their users 167 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,160 while retaining making it as a business model. 168 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,800 I was like, OK, now I understand it like AB to B type of company 169 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,480 that you'd leverage to then have like indirect hundreds of 170 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,080 thousands of millions of users. So in 2020, the first staking 171 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,160 product we launched was for Pocket Network. 172 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,160 Is there a decentralized RPC network? 173 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,200 We were offering RPC ourselves. So like, wow, if you can 174 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,440 decentralize it, this is this is genius. 175 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,240 So like Michael the CEOI met him in Berlin, actually in Berlin 176 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,840 blockchain in 2019. And I was like, wow, this guy is 177 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,840 so smart, so bright. And if, if the future is 178 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,840 decentralized, the access of blockchains are decentralized, 179 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,680 that that could be, we could potentially be part of it. 180 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,880 And in 2020 it comes to ATHC in Paris. 181 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,520 We do in advance and together in office. 182 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,880 And and then he covet it. And he, he comes to me and say, 183 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,280 hey man, like I, I need the professional infrastructure 184 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:19,240 company to offer staking to my investors while deploying nodes. 185 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,560 And it's a pure proof of stake network. 186 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:24,000 So that's not a delegated proof of stake network, meaning that 187 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,600 every X number of tokens in that case was like 15,000 number of 188 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,560 token, you have to launch another validator. 189 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,280 So we're not running one validator on pockets. 190 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,760 We're running like thousands of tedators actually, right. 191 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,800 It was a, it was 4 of tenements at a time. 192 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,400 And anyway, we build this, we was like, OK, we didn't find a 193 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,520 market on, on our PC. So let's focus on staking in 194 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,720 summer 2020. We, we ready to launch the 195 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,400 product. We launch the product and you 196 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,200 know, it's defy summer, so bowl price goes up. 197 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,520 The demand for staking is just like insane. 198 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,960 And suddenly we from zero customers and, you know, 199 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,600 struggling with blockchain for for two, two years, two years 200 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,400 and a half. Like we had like 50 customers in 201 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,560 two months right from everywhere in the world, like US, New 202 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:18,840 Zealand, Europe. So, yeah, we, we, we, we, our 203 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,480 product was terrible, but we found, we found the market that 204 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,040 was the first staking product we launched. 205 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:31,320 And then Ethereum was a very natural evolution for us because 206 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,720 Ethereum was the first major pure proof of state network, 207 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,920 right? You would have to run a 208 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:42,680 validator every X number of token as on pockets every 33 you 209 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:46,840 have to run a validator. So we were, we were good at like 210 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,240 running validators at scale on neon pockets. 211 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,840 It's just, it was a much bigger protocol to secure a much bigger 212 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,480 playground. So we, we launched our Etherium 213 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,840 operations when the B country launched in December 2020. 214 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,680 And quickly we, we also had Lido as a customer. 215 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,480 So I have to shoot out to the Lido team for trusting us at the 216 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,200 time because we're, we're not known at all and we owe them 217 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:15,400 quite a lot. And then yeah. 218 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,920 And then, you know, guess can can give you more details about 219 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,760 the rest and rest is history. But that's that's how we 220 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,560 started. Give us some neons for what it 221 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:31,000 takes to kind of run a validator, kind of add an 222 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,680 institutional grade for clients. Because kind of, I think a lot 223 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,560 of people will have experience with kind of like running kind 224 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,600 of like an Ethereum or Gnosis chain or so validator. 225 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:47,720 But usually it's pretty, there are some challenges and these 226 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,360 are kind of the networks on which it is super easy to kind 227 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,480 of run nodes, right? Kind of like there's a lot of 228 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,720 networks where kind of running a node is extremely it, it kind of 229 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,960 it, it requires very close maintenance and the professional 230 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,960 expertise. So kind of give us some nuance 231 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,520 to kind of like what it takes to kind of operate this as a 232 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,440 business. No, that's a very good question. 233 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,280 Yeah, First off, you're right. There's some block chains, for 234 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,280 example a theorem or Cosmos where it's easier to run 235 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,480 validators than like on TON, for example. 236 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,920 For those who know Ton, we love TON. 237 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:22,640 It's a, it's a fantastic block chain. 238 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,360 It's just harder to to operate in. 239 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:33,120 And yeah, I mean the even on let's say a theorem from running 240 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,840 a node on your computer, a solo staker that you mentioned to 241 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,360 like being a institutional grade operator. 242 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,360 There's there's a couple of things that that differ. 243 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:50,920 First, we tend to sometimes other and I mean sometimes, but 244 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,320 on regular basis over perform the network a little bit. 245 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,480 I guess that's our the first type of advantage that we offer 246 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,440 our clients, meaning we, we do, we do MEV. 247 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,920 We introduced where the some of the ones that interest timing 248 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:14,160 games in I think September 2022, if I recall, because there was, 249 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,400 there was papers from the foundation, but not nobody 250 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,440 really like put it in production so that you, you delay a little 251 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,760 bit the block proposal so that you can get a little bit more 252 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,120 MEV. And then like we did a lot of 253 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,120 research was like how the network will be impacted by this 254 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,480 and with all the, definitely all the operators and the foundation 255 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,040 themselves so that we work hand in hand not to slow down or not 256 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,200 to impact Ethereum as a whole. And, and, and we found like kind 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,400 of a recipe. So that, so I mean, this, this 258 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,440 is the first advantage. The second is definitely so the 259 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,760 rewards, right? The rewards part. 260 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,800 And in, in on chain rewards, launching yields, there's always 261 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,000 this like risk and rewards components. 262 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,000 So rewards like you, we try to, to over perform the network a 263 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,840 little bit. This is the case on Ethereum. 264 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,880 There's also the case on Solana and other networks. 265 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,400 The risk cards is also very, very important when you try to 266 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,120 be institutional, right. So you what you're trying to 267 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,360 offer first insurance in case of slashing. 268 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,880 So this, you know, I think 3 to $4 million is the total amount 269 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,920 of that has ever been slashed on the beacon shade, which is quite 270 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,480 minimal if you, if you look at like you know, the number of 271 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:40,040 billions asset our states. But still we, we try to, to be 272 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,280 insured in case there's a slashing events for clients so 273 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,200 that they are sure their clients will be paid back. 274 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,880 Then we try to have like internal security measures. 275 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:56,680 We, you know, try to avoid double, double voting, double 276 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,080 proposing. And we, we double signing and we 277 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,960 have a couple of, and we published some blog posts with 278 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,640 the foundation on this. Actually, even our monitoring 279 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,599 validity monitoring tool is open source. 280 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:14,079 You can you, if you're a solo Stoker, you can use it, but the, 281 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,760 the you, you'd never want to be slashed, right? 282 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,040 And, and slashing measures are like a Swiss cheese. 283 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:28,280 It's couple of layers. It's, you know, double slashing, 284 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,680 double voting prevention. It's definitely insurance, it's 285 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,120 definitely monitoring at different level, external and 286 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,400 internal monitoring. It's the signing. 287 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:45,600 We, we use Web 3 signer, but we might use like more type of HSM 288 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,440 signers when, when we, we sign locks in in the future and you 289 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,840 decouple the signing from, from the validated infrastructure and 290 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,800 then you spread this validated infrastructure across the globe. 291 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,520 And, and lastly, you, we use different validated clients, 292 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,320 Prism, Lighthouse and Tekhu. We were one third, one third and 293 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,720 one third. So we'd like splits, but we 294 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,320 realized that if you run a majority clients, so for 295 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,400 example, Lighthouse and Tekhu, sorry, Lighthouse and Prism, 296 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,520 sorry that I have like more than 33% of the of the network. 297 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,880 You might in case of a large slashing events, a bug on the 298 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:32,080 clients, the you know it, it might be very damaging for all 299 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,240 infrastructures. We, we decided to actually 300 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,000 reduce drastically the Lighthouse and Prism exposure 301 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,120 that we have and run a majority of Teku by the clients. 302 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,280 Anyway, I hope I don't go too much into the weeds, but all of 303 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:50,160 that is how you differentiate of from being a solo staker. 304 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,640 Maybe we can just very quickly kind of give some colour to the 305 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,560 some background to the slashing discussion. 306 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,840 So kind of the background here is that kind of if you double 307 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,240 sign, you're always slashed, but kind of if you just if you're 308 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,720 validated, just goes down and stops kind of attesting and 309 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,320 proposing blocks, then you're slashed based on how much of the 310 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,480 network kind of goes down with you. 311 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,240 So kind of if you're just a Sodo staker and kind of you lose 312 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,280 power on your on your server or something that's that actually 313 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,080 doesn't get you slashed a lot. But kind of like if you and half 314 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,440 of the network go down, that is actually a very stashable event. 315 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,560 So kind of you want to prevent, you want to prevent kind of your 316 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,760 users to be penalized that way by kind of being caught in a 317 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,920 situation where they are a part, they are a large part of the 318 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,880 network or they are part of the large part of the network that 319 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,280 kind of goes down, right? Yeah, that's right. 320 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,400 But so so you, you you said it like being down will be always 321 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,360 less damage able a part of a larger part of the network goes 322 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,480 down at the same time than being slashed. 323 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,880 So we have a mantra eternities like better be down than slash, 324 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,520 right? And and there's there's a couple 325 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,040 of events that you you. It's OK to be down or you're, 326 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,480 you're fine to be down, right? Yeah. 327 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,840 Then like avoiding session events. 328 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,440 Tell us about the team that kind of that it that it takes to kind 329 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,440 of operate this. So kind of, I just know this 330 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,880 kind of from our side, kind of we operate a number of nodes and 331 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,800 kind of like archival nodes and so on. 332 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,080 And I know there's a that our dev OPS team, they do a lot of 333 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,760 monitoring and they have kind of like they have on call duties 334 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,520 and and so on. So, so, so how how is that set 335 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,440 up with within kiln and how many people do you have dedicated for 336 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,280 kind of just maintenance of infrastructure? 337 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,160 Right. So we have a team and 338 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,800 infrastructure for us is two sides is is like running the 339 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,480 nodes, but it's also sticking data, which is also like setting 340 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,560 you apart from like being a social, like a social staker 341 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,400 like for example. And I'm happy to come back to 342 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,440 it. But if you're an ETP or an ETF 343 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,720 and you offer a stick ETP, then you need the granularity of the 344 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,280 data to get taking reconciliation. 345 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:20,160 What's the NAV, what's the, the, the rewards on, you know, daily, 346 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,880 weekly, yearly basis. The the data needs to be. 347 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,080 And that's actually a very, very tricky part indexing. 348 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,960 I mean, you know this right? But, and in block shins, you 349 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,120 have two types of data. You have like the execution 350 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,440 later data, smart contracts and the consensus layer data and 351 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,920 consensus layer data. We very few in this in on the 352 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,920 planet to just like index it because it's usually means you 353 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,520 need staking data, right. So it's basically it's usually 354 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,400 like institutional staking providers that that does it. 355 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,680 So we have a team of 15 DevOps just to running, you know, all 356 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,680 the infrastructure running the nodes on 47 different chains. 357 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,840 And as you mentioned, there's, there's on calls, so 24/7 they 358 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,840 have an application on their mobile and they can be waking up 359 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:12,280 at 4:00 AM on Saturday morning. And, and, and that rotates in to 360 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,600 today. It's mainly concentrated in 361 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Europe, but in the future we could, we could have teams 362 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,240 across the globe. So that's, you know, maybe like 363 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,520 you, you don't get waking up in that 4:00 AM in the on Saturday 364 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,400 morning. So and then on the data part, 365 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,360 it's, it's another 15 other people they're working indexing 366 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,840 20 different shades. So that's, and it's valid and 367 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,920 agnostic, right. So we don't, we don't only index 368 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,640 our validators. A lot of our clients actually 369 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,320 are using our data to index other providers because they're 370 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,080 using 123 or 4 providers, because they want to spread the 371 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,720 risk, because they, they want to have more coin coverage and so 372 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,320 forth. But they're still using our data 373 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,360 to, to, to index the, the network and then get the NAV, 374 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,320 get the, the, the, the rewards on all these validators and so 375 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,840 forth. This being said, you know, 376 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,560 coming back, that's a recruiters talking, It's not about like 377 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,880 number of, of engineers at the end, right? 378 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,040 This is never about the, the number of engineers. 379 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:17,000 It's always about like spending a lot of time to finding the, 380 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,520 the right engineer. So you might say, oh, 15 and 15, 381 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,240 oh, 30 people, a lot of it. It's a big team. 382 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,280 Well, I mean, but the number of things they're doing, it's quite 383 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,680 a small team, I can tell you right. 384 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,240 And, and we are we and I, I meet every one of them. 385 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,040 I know all, all of their names. Some of them I've been working 386 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,440 for, for for five years and and some the ones, for example, in 387 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,240 charge of Ethereum and our Ethereum infrastructure school 388 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,360 emixes or Sebastiano. He's doing a lot of research 389 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,960 himself. He's doing open source with our 390 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,960 Ethereum validator. Watch her being like, what are 391 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,440 you doing tool to to monitor Ethereum validators? 392 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,320 He's he's doing open source with comic boost. 393 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:08,400 So basically the preconf project past PECTRA that we'll, we'll, 394 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,160 we'll use working a lot with the foundation doing some research 395 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,520 about the impact on MEV, for example, the network and so 396 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,640 forth, like so on and so forth. So, so they're not, they're not 397 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,240 only dev OPS, right? They are protocol specialists in 398 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,840 a way, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 399 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,800 Can you give us an an idea how much of the stake ETH is stake 400 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,720 via KIN and kind of compare this to other networks you're also 401 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,360 operating on? Yes. 402 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:43,040 So in total we have 13 billion assets that are staked on the 403 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,000 platform. It's don't want to. 404 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:54,160 So we have 4.6% of the FM network, which means in I don't 405 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,360 want to wrong the numbers. I think I think would mean like 406 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,360 between 5 or 6 billion of assets or so dollars of ETH for the 407 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:07,080 states through validators running fourteen 9000 408 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,520 evaluators. And yeah, that's, that's, that's 409 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,440 I think kind of about it. We we say that we are the 410 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,720 largest independence like node operator, meaning you still have 411 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,480 like large platforms like Coinbase. 412 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,400 You can argue maybe Binance they're running modems than than 413 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,640 we do. But like as an independence 414 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,080 staking provider, yeah, we, we, we tend to say on a theorem, 415 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,680 we're the largest. What are your biggest clients? 416 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,240 Yeah. So we work with exchanges, 417 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,920 wallets, custodians, asset managers, so the, you know, the 418 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:51,560 ETFETP like and new banks and you know, maybe maybe the banks 419 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,600 and the like that are coming into the space and and we have a 420 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,360 couple of direct clients. It's, it's, it's a small portion 421 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,440 of a business, but when you go on Ledger for example, or you go 422 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,560 on Safe you, you you know Safe has a marketplace and you can 423 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,680 stake directly through DAP. So you will see kiln there most 424 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,000 that I would say that's five to five to 10% of our volume, 90% 425 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,480 of our volume. It's actually our white label 426 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,320 infrastructure that is used by, I don't know Bit Panda that is 427 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:35,240 used by Kunbi's wallets that is used by you know five blocks and 428 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,600 alike so that their customers either retail or institutional 429 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,440 customers can can stake. We shall probably stress that 430 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,120 kind of like all the staking that you guys do is non 431 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:48,800 custodial. So I mean, kind of like if you 432 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,800 kind of have funds on an exchange, on a centralised 433 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,360 exchange and kind of you let them stake for you, kind of they 434 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,320 are in custody of your funds, but you are never in custody of 435 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,080 someone's funds. So kind of how does this work on 436 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,160 a technical level? Yep. 437 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,720 So the exchanges and in exchange, for example, we use 438 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,800 our AP is that then like points to evaluators and our AP is 439 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,960 automates the flow, the sticking and then staking flow and also 440 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:21,680 give them the right data, right? Hey, today you have staked this 441 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,360 number of amounts and you have earned this number of rewards 442 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:30,200 for this number of customers. A wallet will use, for example, 443 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,920 safe will use a smart contracts and we have a smart contract 444 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,400 platform. So that on a theorem, for 445 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,360 example, you can stake 32 ETH a validator. 446 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,960 If you want to stake validator, that's how you know you are for 447 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:48,040 example, Co swap is on also the the it's the white label 448 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,320 solution that is used for the the swapping engine on on on the 449 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,680 safe interface. We are now the the the white 450 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,840 label solution for the the staking engine on, on, on on the 451 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,920 safe dashboard. For now, you can only stake 32 452 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,200 ETH, so a validator, but maybe in the future you will be able 453 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760 to stake any amount of ETH if you don't have 32 ETH to stake. 454 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,760 And in that case, we have a smart contract that pulls 455 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,480 customers funds and then redirect to a validated that's 456 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,840 validated agnostic. For example, some of this smart 457 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:28,760 contract on chain rewards management platform is used by 458 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,680 Condes Cloud, for example, in and they're running the nodes, 459 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,240 but the the for Coinbase wallets. 460 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,720 But they use our smart contract platform to offer pooling 461 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,920 staking so that their customers non custodial can stake any 462 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:50,120 amount or consensus is offering 32 ETH staking while using our 463 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,760 our smart contract on mini mask. So yeah, that's, that's the type 464 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,000 of non custodial staking that we we can also offer to our to our 465 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,000 customers. Custodial staking is the 466 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,360 exchanges, the asset managers and some of the the custodian 467 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,240 that are regulated custodian or non custodial staking for 468 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:15,400 wallets or technology custody. That's super interesting. 469 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,400 Kind of I want to come back to that in just a second, but maybe 470 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,960 kind of let's zoom out a little bit. 471 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:26,480 So kind of when we look at kind of the evolution of, of staking 472 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,640 on Ethereum or maybe even, you know, preceding the, the switch 473 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,520 to proof of stake on Ethereum, what do you see as kind of the 474 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,040 major milestones kind of in the history of proof of stake in 475 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:44,640 this ecosystem? Yeah, that's, that's a good 476 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:45,640 question. I think. 477 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,760 I mean, the first, I remember doing extension like these sort 478 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,800 of staking, right? Like the first staking protocol 479 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,760 were like 2013, 2014. We're, we're kind of the first 480 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,200 iteration of stake. And then like in 2014, 2030 for 481 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,880 2014, theorem already speaks about proof stake in the white 482 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,720 paper. And they say it's going to be 483 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,400 next year, right? Next year for, for the next 5 484 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,480 years. And and then in 20/17/18, you 485 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,640 start to have, I would say the, the first proof stake network 486 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,920 that launch at scale. So it's Cosmos, it's Tezos in 487 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,600 2020 and basically in 2027 to 2018 is like, hey, we we're just 488 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,400 going to do like a smart contract platform. 489 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,160 We're thinking it's not going to be scalable. 490 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,960 At the time, the scalability was not yet, I would say part of the 491 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:50,240 discussion or even like, you know, technically available or 492 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,600 in 2020, you start to have smart contract platform using staking 493 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,240 to say we're going to be a proof of stake network and we're going 494 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,800 to be scalable on L1. So that's Solana. 495 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,840 And then in, in in the end of 2020, a theorems 546 years after 496 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,560 saying that staking will be the end game, finally launched the 497 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,520 beacon chain. And, and two years after 498 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,040 launching the Beacon chain, they, they move, you know, 499 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,520 finally from proof of work to proof of stake in that's kind of 500 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,120 the history of proof of stake network. 501 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,240 The history of adoption of staking I would say would be 502 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:36,080 that we feel that until 2019-2020 it was and even even 503 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,160 ahead because Lido also was, was a wells to retail type of type 504 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,040 of adoption. I would say since 2019-2020. 505 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280 Then the adoption became very platform, right. 506 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,440 So you you would start staking from an exchange, you would 507 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,080 start staking from a wallet, you would start staking from a 508 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,880 custodian versus you invested in the IC O of Solana and you would 509 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,760 delegate directly to a validator, right? 510 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:06,600 Like nobody, none of the Ledger fire blocks safe or it turned 511 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,280 out Coinbase or buy bit at the time would tell you, Hey, by the 512 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,000 way, you have, you know, Solana on that platform. 513 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,040 So you can start to stake. This came a little bit after. 514 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,200 And so the IT was very platform adoption, I would say from 2020 515 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,680 to onward. And and now you really seeing 516 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,280 because they everybody say ho in the institutional adoption, what 517 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,520 institutions means, right. But you're really seeing like 518 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,880 traditional financial institutions that are and will 519 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,880 start to stake and, and it starts with the ETPSETF, right. 520 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,360 So for example, in Europe we have Vanek as a client. 521 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,800 Vanek is, is, you know, a traditional financial 522 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:54,680 institution in the US that has ET PS product in Europe and can 523 00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:01,640 start to say you have a ETH staked ETP so that you invest in 524 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,240 a theorem, but you also invest in a theorem that get rewards 525 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:13,960 annually mistaking and it's not yet available in the US, but you 526 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,320 know, you might argue that maybe this year or the next year now 527 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,720 that's the administration is changing and it's becoming pro 528 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,360 crypto stinking is going to come for these products. 529 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,640 So, and, and then you know from, from from now on, other 530 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,600 institutional type of players will, will start to offer 531 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,240 staking the banks, the new banks, the banks, the, the, the 532 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,440 other large pension funds and edge funds. 533 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,560 And, and we we have very meaningful discussions with 534 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:48,320 these players who were looking at us like crazy DJNS 3-4 years 535 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,120 ago. Yeah. 536 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,240 I, I, I totally hear that. One of the things that kind of 537 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,480 no one I think initially kind of foresaw was the emergence of 538 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,440 both kind of liquid staking and then re staking. 539 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,400 So kind of with liquid, liquid staking, the idea is that kind 540 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,840 of you, you stake and for instance via Lido and you kind 541 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,120 of get a representation of your stake choking back. 542 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,679 So you can use that as collateral and you can have 543 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:24,120 leverage up how, how do, how do you view that because kind of 544 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,679 you, you don't offer that to your institutional customers, 545 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,440 right. So there's some opportunity cost 546 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,000 for them there. So we do, we do offer liquid 547 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,920 staking to our customers. And, and there's, there's two 548 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,440 offering we have it's, it's one if you're a retail platform, an 549 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,280 exchange of wallet, you can offer liquid staking. 550 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,880 We do liquid staking as a service with pooling, right. 551 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,840 So let's say you're an exchange, you want to launch their your 552 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,520 own E ETH, the name of the exchange or the name of the 553 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,840 wallet ETH. And in that case it's, it's very 554 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,480 similar to white label Lido if you want. 555 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:03,000 And we do offer liquid staking for institutions, ETF and the 556 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,600 like with we tokenized the validator, right? 557 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,080 Because we think the ETF needs liquid staking because you, you, 558 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,760 they can't stake us more than a specific amount of the of the 559 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,000 ETF of the farm because you know, they still need to be 560 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,960 liquid on a daily basis. They have t + 1 and T + 2 561 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,280 redemption requirements. And the way for them to stake 562 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,840 more would be to use liquid staking solutions, but they 563 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,600 don't want to use pooling solutions, commingling solutions 564 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,680 because it would mix jurisdiction, right? 565 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,440 Like when you stick on Lido, for example, you have people from 566 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,200 all over the world sticking on, on in the Lido pool and we think 567 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,960 it, it doesn't fits them. So we, we, we did is we, we 568 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,880 tokenized the validator and we represent it with an NFT. 569 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,520 And this NFT can be can be traded from one ETF to the other 570 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,440 or from one ETF to a market maker. 571 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,320 Anyway, coming back to liquid staking, I think it's it's a 572 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,800 fantastic product and Lido really explain to the crypto 573 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,320 market with the the adoption of the product that it's a needed 574 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,480 product. And it the first staking is is 575 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,400 is the first it's the primary rewards, the risk free rate, if 576 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,000 you will, of crypto. But it's not D5, right? 577 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,040 It's, it's a, it's a protocol reward where liquid staking 578 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,680 became the 1st T5 product and start to flow this reward back 579 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:35,280 to lending boring protocols or liquidity, providing our, you 580 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,640 know, options and, and and risk free rate protocols and so 581 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,520 forth. So liquid staking is very 582 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,080 needed. First of all, 'cause you, you 583 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,040 need of you need liquidity, but you also you might need higher 584 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,920 source of rewards and you, you can't combine this this staking 585 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,560 rewards with, with other type of rewards if you don't have a 586 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:00,400 liquid staking token. So yeah, I think, I think your 587 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,080 liquid staking is great. Of course, it introduces a bit 588 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,600 more risk, right? What are these risks? 589 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:07,840 So of course there's more contract. 590 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,640 Bye. You know, staking is the, the 591 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,960 risk of staking is quite low. I told you it's, it's 33 to $4 592 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,160 million slashed on dozens of billions of dollars of, of 593 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,120 assets are staked on, on liquid staking. 594 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,000 You, you start to have a complex smart contract and we, we, we 595 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,120 build this smart contract ourselves. 596 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,200 So I can, I can tell you there's a rest there. 597 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,680 It's not risk free. Then of course you can mitigate 598 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,760 it using great auditors and, and, and using continuous smart 599 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,360 contract monitoring tools. And of course the, the security 600 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,400 standards from like 3 years ago to now completely changed. 601 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,440 I think the industry is, is is is much more, much more mature 602 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,000 in that regard. And then re staking, yeah, I can 603 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,320 talk about re staking as well. But I, I see maybe just this, I 604 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,640 see staking as the the use of the staking position 605 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,400 horizontally and I, I see restaking as the use of the 606 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,840 staking position vertically, right. 607 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,400 Like you, you think you oh, sorry, the other way around 608 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,080 anyway, But basically, yeah, restaking embedded by Agnaire 609 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,520 was explaining to the market, as Lydo explained, you know, to the 610 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,320 market that, you know, liquid staking was, was a thing and was 611 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,560 the primary D5 source primary D5 protocol. 612 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,440 That's, you know, re staking could be used to secure other 613 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,720 networks or other applications that needs decentralization. 614 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,920 It's quite complex. And I'm sure you've launched 615 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,680 Federica your your chain. So you know, it's complex to 616 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,600 launch a chain and to manage a network, right? 617 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,840 You have to manage, go to markets or you have to manage, 618 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:02,240 you know, a lot of validators and do these two things at the 619 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,160 same time is, you know, actually very, very time consuming. 620 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,040 It's it's often not at all the same thing. 621 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,240 And what's your chain and your token is getting worse if you, 622 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,440 if you don't focus on go to market. 623 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,960 So I can hear your calm and say, hey, if you are a start up, if 624 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,040 you're a project and you want to use the decentralization, this 625 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,440 validation marketplace, we already have a set of validators 626 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,720 that you can use and you can use a platform or marketplace to 627 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,720 bootstrap your decentralized application and project. 628 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,680 Yeah, that's that's that's very compelling. 629 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,480 Let's see you know how it and where it enhance with the 630 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,200 maturity of all these AVSS and startup that is launched with 631 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,560 with Aguilera. Not symbiotic is the kind of the 632 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:54,120 second mover on the theorem and Babylon on on Bitcoin, But but 633 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,560 that's interesting from a a a startup project digitization 634 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,440 application point of view. That's also interesting from the 635 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,640 other side of the marketplace. It's like, hey, I have Heath, I 636 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,200 have Bitcoin and suddenly you introducing this new type of 637 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:15,600 rewards on the market. This is not staking plus defy, 638 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,720 it's staking plus staking. It's two type. 639 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,720 I get it rewarded two or two, two times or three times to 640 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,320 secure one. Two or three network was the 641 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,480 same security pool coming from Ethereum or Bitcoin. 642 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,560 Yeah, the you know, that's, that's a very interesting 643 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,760 concept. And and that's something that 644 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:43,600 our clients, even if they are taking the time to use or 645 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,680 integrate these products, they're still they're looking at 646 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,760 on on regular basis. And, and I'm I'm confident this 647 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:54,400 ecosystem will grow. Do you think it potentially 648 00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:02,440 messes up the security of the underlying protocol, in this 649 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,160 case Ethereum? Yes, it could for sure. 650 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:12,480 Leveraging the security of Ethereum with five or ten 651 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,200 different networks with the same security pool that could mess up 652 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,840 Ethereum. That's that's a, that's a very 653 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,320 good point. And I think it's hard to tell 654 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,240 where the guardrails should be. Is it at the protocol level? 655 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,360 But then it's not really permission less is it at the, 656 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:36,360 you know, the, the Dow level, the community level, maybe 657 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,760 combination of all of that. But you know, leveraging on 658 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,680 Ethereum should be prevented somehow because you, you're not 659 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,160 yeah, you, you, you are playing with the security of the 660 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,680 network. So that's the risk for sure. 661 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:59,640 But you know, does like an Oracle protocol or a stable coin 662 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,360 or anyone building around Ethereum or even Bitcoin now 663 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,960 won't want to leverage the security of the underlying 664 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,080 protocol. I think they, they, they should, 665 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,080 right? I think, I think it's a, it's a 666 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,960 interesting mechanism that they they should leverage. 667 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,280 How do you see the staking ecosystem kind of evolve over 668 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,160 the next, Let's talk about long time scales in terms of 669 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,760 blockchain, let's let's say over the next 5 to 10 years, how how 670 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:33,880 do you think it's going to evolve? 671 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,240 Is it going to be all kind of institutional grade staking 672 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,520 providers or do you think we'll still have some solo stakers? 673 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,320 Or do you think the pendulum will actually swing the other 674 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:50,480 way and kind of we will have a majority of smaller stake, 675 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,840 smaller solo stakers or staking providers? 676 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,440 Yeah, that's, that's, that's a very good question. 677 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,760 And I'm still hopeful in the like decentralization aspect of 678 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,000 it, even if you know, there will be consolidation. 679 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,400 And I mean, I'm, I'm not, you know, playing on for, for, for 680 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,400 the kiln flag and out because of course, you know, having, having 681 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,000 more part of the, of the market is, is one of our objective. 682 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,560 But, but, but as well as like keeping the network 683 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,960 decentralized. I think the difference between 684 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,720 Bitcoin, because if you look at Bitcoin today, mining, like 685 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,960 mining, is a clear consensus mechanism that push the small 686 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,720 players out of the network, right? 687 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:43,640 It's like if you don't have like 3, if you don't pay your kilo 688 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,360 water three to four cents, while, you know, having like 689 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,720 great ASIC infrastructure to run it to validate the, the Bitcoin 690 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,480 network, then you're just out. And today, you know, they, they 691 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:02,120 like Frank, Frankly, Bitcoin might be validated by 4050 main 692 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,120 companies, if, if not less like, you know, there's, there's a lot 693 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,600 I, I, I can lease to at least three companies that have more 694 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,160 than 10% of the, the, you know, validation power on Bitcoin. 695 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,320 I can list you only one company that has this on, on, on 696 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,200 Ethereum. So I think proof of stake in 697 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,920 that sense is, is a better consensus mechanism to keep the 698 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,400 network decentralized because even in five years or 10 years, 699 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,080 it will be easier and easier for a solo staker to run a validator 700 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,200 on his computer, right? Which is the, the main 701 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,680 difference from proof of stake, though all had happened. 702 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,240 That's, that's the question she asked in the 1st place. 703 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,840 I think there will be definitely a combination of it. 704 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,680 I think that there will definitely be consolidation 705 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,920 because you know, these ETF example, they will, they will, 706 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,760 they will start to, to use one, two or three or four providers 707 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,440 and they will need, you know, performance insurance. 708 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,600 I mean, everything in social grader that mentioned to you 709 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,400 earlier, which a solo staker cannot provide, but maybe, maybe 710 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,880 there's a, there's a solo staker type of aggregator that helps 711 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,720 them to decentralize also their staking sets because they, they, 712 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,400 they have the incentives to keep Ethereum decentralized. 713 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,200 If you, if you think about it as well, right? 714 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:28,440 And I think a part, a part of the, the validation poet will, 715 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,120 will be run by solo stakers and the ones that are 716 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,400 decentralization maxi. And we need them, right? 717 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,480 We need them to keep Ethereum decentralized. 718 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,960 So by the way, the one of the reason we are doing, we're 719 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,560 offering liquid staking products and, and D5 products to our 720 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,560 customers. We can talk about it later is 721 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,440 because of course they are asked it, but also because like we 722 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,680 don't want to be in a world where we, we have to keep 723 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,280 growing on the staking business. And it it actually could 724 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,480 potentially hurt the decentralization of the network 725 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,080 itself that we we are trying to sink her in the first place. 726 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,320 There's efforts under way kind of in the Ethereum ecosystem to 727 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,560 kind of make staking easier in terms of capital requirements. 728 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,880 So currently you need 32 ETH, which is $100,000, and kind of 729 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,280 the idea is to kind of reduce this markedly. 730 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,760 What are your thoughts on this? I think it's great. 731 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:32,040 I think it's great. I think it also advantage us in 732 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,040 a way because it concentrates the, I mean, we, we won't have 733 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,320 to run that many validators anymore. 734 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,520 We, we will be able to merge validators 1 to another and run 735 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:49,840 as much as 64 validators 2048 ETH. 736 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,960 I don't know, please, I'm not, I'm not sure about the 737 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,760 calculation, but I think that it, that's it. 738 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,360 And, and, and these 64 validators, this 2048 ETH versus 739 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,720 32 will kind of auto compound, right? 740 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:09,320 So you will have kind of like validated pools in a way at the 741 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,680 protocol level, which is pretty compelling also for the large 742 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,840 players, but it's also compelling for a solo staker 743 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,120 because now the the requirement will be much lower. 744 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,760 So I think it's great. I think it's going the the right 745 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,200 way. A little while ago, you kind of 746 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,480 ventured outside of kind of your core staking business and you 747 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,400 kind of launch killing Kifi, which kind of lets your same 748 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,800 clients kind of tap into defy yields. 749 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,160 Tell us about that. Yep. 750 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,320 And actually you remember we, we had a discussion, I think we 751 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,120 were in Prague together conferencing and that was the, 752 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:51,840 the beginning of our discussion. I mean, we, we think like, and 753 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:58,400 we think it's, it's evident that stable coins will push the 754 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,600 payment markets and the value market in general to a non chain 755 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,160 future. At least that's what's that's 756 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,680 what we think, right? Like I like this quote from 757 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:10,720 Safe. Let's put the GDP on chain. 758 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,800 Yes, let's put the GDP on chain. If we need to put the, the GDP 759 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,440 on chain, stability in these transactions need to happen. 760 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,120 And that's why it's stable coins are there and the stable coin 761 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,280 market already found problem. Like I think there's 170 billion 762 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,440 stable coins in circulation right now, USDTUSDC and and 763 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,840 others. And we've, we realized that most 764 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,320 of our clients had, and most of their users, most of their 765 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,280 clients had a lot of step one on the platform, but wouldn't 766 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,400 access rewards, wouldn't access yields. 767 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,720 And there are some fantastic yields, you know, on, on, in, 768 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:55,280 in, on chain. The first ones are provided by 769 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,280 lending and boring protocols such as more for I'm saying them 770 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,920 first because I love them. I it's not only because they're 771 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,440 French, because I think it's a fantastic protocol and maybe 772 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,440 maybe one of the best, if not the best one out there. 773 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,280 And, and there's Ave. and there's compound, of course, 774 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,640 and, and there's, there's many others. 775 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,080 And on the other side, there was only 4% at the time when we 776 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:19,880 start. I think now it's, it went up to 777 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,080 six, six, 7% of stable coins that are were getting interest, 778 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,360 right, which if you compare it to a theorem, sorry a theorem, 779 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,480 it's 30% of of assets that are staked. 780 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,360 And if you compare it to stakeable assets, all POS 781 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,880 assets, I think it's 45% of all POS assets that are staked. 782 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:43,200 So this this stablecoin rewards market is very immature at least 783 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,840 10X when we started 10X less mature than than the staking 784 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,560 markets. So we thought, OK, we'll as we 785 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,760 did for staking, we'll provide the infrastructure for these 786 00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:01,120 exchanges wallet custodians, new banks, banks to offer table con 787 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,480 rewards. So that's how we, we start Cal 788 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:08,240 D5 was we, we, we aggregated was our own smart contract bolt 789 00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:13,400 infrastructure, the main lending and boring platforms so that 790 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:19,120 the, you know, these exchanges, wallets, custodians can start to 791 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:25,600 monetize this while offering 10 or 15 different protocols on 10 792 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,880 or 15 different assets, stable coin assets. 793 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,880 And now we're expending this to, to other, other type of, of 794 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,680 rewards on chain. For example, if you want to lend 795 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:39,880 if and get close to 8 or or 10% type of, of rewards and not 796 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,880 you're not happy of the 3% staking, you want higher type of 797 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,600 yields. We, we also offer that and, and 798 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,880 maybe just lastly is like, you know, retail customers, they, 799 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,280 they need usually one click experience. 800 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,680 And if you want to keep them on chain, which is all of our 801 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,440 product do is like keeping them on chain. 802 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,280 You, you need to simplify this experience on chain. 803 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,040 So if, if you want to end up what that's one of the reason 804 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,240 why a lot of customers were sitting on exchanges not moving 805 00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:11,040 on chain because the UX is it's not as good as, you know, I was 806 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,120 like the exchanges that can just build a front end and use of 807 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:16,640 omnibus set up in the background. 808 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,000 Whereas now you can start to build with pass key, you can 809 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,040 abstraction. The onboarding is getting much 810 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,800 better. And also the on chain 811 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,040 experience, The one click, you can rebalance from any yield 812 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,800 position to, to the other on chain in one click, whatever 813 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,560 the, the asset, whatever the D5 protocol, whatever the chain is. 814 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,000 And that's, that's something we, we, we heavily working on. 815 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,520 And and that's something that will that will increase the 816 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,680 adoption of of these products, Andre. 817 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,120 How do you evaluate which products to include in this? 818 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,240 Because kind of like you're in a way this is a huge endorsement, 819 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:55,120 right? Because kind of like if, if I 820 00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:59,400 I'm your client, I kind of expect you to kind of do the due 821 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,600 diligence on these protocols. Yeah, that's a, that's a very 822 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,840 good question. And you would be disappointed of 823 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,600 the answer because frankly, we started to to take the ones that 824 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,840 our clients wanted and also the largest one, right? 825 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:21,880 Like you, you, you know, we assume that's Ave. and Morpho 826 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,680 great protocols. When we start to, to, to offer 827 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:29,400 them to our users, then it, it starts to get tricky when 828 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,160 specifically, I guess of Marfa, for example, when you have like 829 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,160 different volts, different risk profile that are managed by 830 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:40,040 strategists and curators that are a third party that that is 831 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,840 managing the risk. So the risk is not even managed 832 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,240 by the protocol itself. It's managed by a third party. 833 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:50,840 So in that case, you also need to, to assess the risk of the 834 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,360 third party. So what are we doing now 835 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,120 naturally is like as we did for smart contract in the beginning, 836 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:03,440 we, we had only security team outside of our company, right. 837 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:08,640 We're using auditors like the spare bits and the likes and and 838 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,680 continuous monitoring tool where vendors like exergate. 839 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,000 But, but now we have a security team in house and we, we still 840 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,960 use these external providers, but we we definitely need an 841 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,960 expertise in house. It's going to be the same for 842 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,920 risk in D5. We, we assess external vendors 843 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,560 and we are building a risk team and in house. 844 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:40,160 So to say, hey, why are we pushing this type of vault on 845 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:47,120 Mofo managed by this creator? Was this risk rewards approach 846 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,720 versus the other? Because, because, because the 847 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:54,000 it's not the only creator that managed volts on Morpho. 848 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,160 So, so that's, that's where we, we building at the moment and, 849 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,640 and, and I guess that's what our clients as well will require in 850 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,760 the future. Yeah. 851 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,720 That, that, that makes a lot of sense when you look at your 852 00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:09,320 client and I mean you kind of you have your ear to the ground 853 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,280 here, right. So kind of when it comes to 854 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,800 institutional investors and so on, are they in it just for the 855 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:21,000 yield or do they also kind of believe in the underlying asset? 856 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,680 Do you think kind of in, in in US, how much do you think this 857 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,600 capital is mercenary? It's hard to tell. 858 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,720 It's hard to tell. They definitely have to run a 859 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:35,800 business right and and they see the revenue opportunity. 860 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,400 So in that sense, but it's I don't think mercenary is the is 861 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,640 the is the right word? Because if it's if it's a short 862 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:50,000 term, like a a platform that is thinking 1020, thirty years 863 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,880 ahead and say, Hey, actually the the world is going to or the 864 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,720 transaction on this planet will be on chain. 865 00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:01,200 So I, I still want to be there in 20 years, cannot offer a 866 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,720 yield that is short term, right? If they don't believe, for 867 00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:05,920 example, I'll give you an example. 868 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,840 If they don't believe in Bitcoin staking, I can tell you I'm not 869 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,200 going to cite some platforms, but they won't offer it 870 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,360 regardless of the revenue they can make, regardless of the 871 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,680 amount of Bitcoin they have on the platform, which is much 872 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,000 higher than any other assets because they, they, they're 873 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,120 thinking long term, right? They're thinking, well, I mean, 874 00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:25,400 I don't really understand the risk yet. 875 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,520 So I don't want to offer it to my users, even if I know the day 876 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,680 they will launch it, it will be a success because, you know, 877 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,480 suddenly people can start to have heels on on Bitcoin. 878 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:42,120 Same for stable coins. So we, we tend to think that 879 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,040 most of our largest clients, largest platform, they think 880 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,200 long term. So they they really still assess 881 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,760 the risk and I don't think master is the the word here. 882 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,320 They're you're thinking, OK, is this source of yields 883 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:59,960 sustainable is basically for more clients lending makes sense 884 00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,200 because there's Boris on the other side of the spectrum and 885 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:08,240 it it will essentially make this economy better. 886 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:14,120 OK, I'm I'm I'm able to to support it and same for us. 887 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,200 Like we we're thinking long term, we would we definitely 888 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,960 need to to grow our roughly and and the yield we offer on the 889 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,160 platform. But if we have one fuck up, 890 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:28,200 let's say like it's the end of our business and if we treat our 891 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,680 customers or their customers badly, it's the end, right? 892 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:36,560 So so that's a good point. I think like, I, I think because 893 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,040 we're starting to, for example, on Avid Morph, we're starting to 894 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:43,200 see fintechs actually using, integrating the, this 895 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,000 infrastructure to the credit lines, right? 896 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:51,000 And, and, and you, you working in a way on this infrastructure 897 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,880 as well, where basically, you know, you have a wallet, you 898 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,360 have a card, you might have EF on the wallet, but you still 899 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,040 want to pay on USDC or Tedder or basically stablecoin so that you 900 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,600 can pay real life. We're starting to see proper use 901 00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,880 cases of that in the background. You need to land your ETH 902 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,920 against USDCUSDT and then you, you have a credit that where you 903 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,960 spend your money in real life. So I think, and by the way, I 904 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,280 think moving forward, the biggest part of the adoption is 905 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,600 going to come from these use cases because we think all the 906 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:30,000 Fentex, the new banks, the Stripe and the like, and we 907 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,840 have, we, we're seeing that they did do, of course, a big push on 908 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,280 stablecoin. We'll offer these type of rails. 909 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,800 And in that case, it's like a saving account, right? 910 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,160 You will need your saving account close to your, to your 911 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,120 payment accounts. And that's what we, we trying 912 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,680 to, to provide. We, we call it the saving 913 00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:54,200 account for the world. I hope, yeah, I, I hope we'll, 914 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:55,920 we'll make it happen. I think this future is is 915 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,240 exciting to to us. Yeah, super cool. 916 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,600 So what? What's on the road map for Kin 917 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,840 in the coming year or so? Yeah, definitely. 918 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,680 And I haven't think any type of rewards on the platform on chain 919 00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,000 and then seeing on chain movement, right. 920 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,040 I think like for example, exchanges, the first stack of an 921 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,640 exchange that will move on chains the earn section because 922 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,480 they don't need low latency of trading and the earn section can 923 00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,280 move on chain before the others. So we'll definitely push the, 924 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,760 the, the exchanges to, to move on chain, at least the earn 925 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,080 section at first, because that's our topic. 926 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:39,320 And we will also look at institutional adoption 927 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:46,200 worldwide. the US is now opening up post election with the 928 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,960 administration changing, though we were still waiting for, for 929 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,560 more clarity. But the, the hope and excitement 930 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:58,880 is there and we'll, we'll try to build this saving account for 931 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,640 the world while, you know, still we, our mission is to 932 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,120 demonstrate value creation in digital assets. 933 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,320 We think once you're on chain, of course we have a business, of 934 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,440 course we'll make revenue, but at least everyone will see how 935 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,200 much we're making our commissions and if, if we're 936 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,720 really driving value to our clients. 937 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,440 So that's what we'll we'll try to do. 938 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,960 Cool. Those are super nice parting 939 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,520 words. Tell us, where can we send 940 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,040 listeners to kind of find out more about killing? 941 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:33,360 Yes, please go on our website kill dot fi stake on our dabs 942 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,840 directly on the website or PRR partners marketplace say for 943 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:42,960 Ledger, we have a Twitter accounts, LinkedIn for the 944 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,800 movers and you know in conferences if you go on 945 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,840 conferences and you see a county shirt, please come and say hi. 946 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,120 Cool. Thank you so much for coming on 947 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:56,600 Last Look. Thanks for the echo.