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This is epicenter episode 475, 
fifth guests, Gary Lieberman and

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Ted Blackman. 
Welcome to episode of the show 

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which talks about the 
Technologies projects and people

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driving decentralization, and 
two blocks and Revolution. 

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I'm Brian Crane. 
And today, I'm speaking with Ted

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Blackman, he's the CTO of the 
irbid foundation and also carry 

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Lieberman. 
He works at correspondent Elites

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are a team. 
So, once again, we're going to 

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speak about herb it and but just
be real. 

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Flee before we get into the 
podcast. 

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All right, so thanks so much 

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guys for coming on. 
It's a, it's great to do this 

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episode. 
Really looking forward to it. 

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Thanks for having me. 
Yeah, let's start with you. 

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Ted, tell us a little bit about 
yourself and sort of, like, how 

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you found your way to where you 
are at this point. 

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Sure. 
Yeah. 

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Well yes, as you mentioned I'm 
the CTO of the Urban Foundation.

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I took over in this role about 
two months ago and for the five 

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years before that I was working 
at too long as a core Dev honor,

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'but and so the first four years
just writing code and then the 

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last year year and a half or so 
is also a managing a number of 

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people working on the colonel. 
And yes, I started working on 

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Urban full-time in 2017. 
I'd first heard of the project 

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in 2014, but didn't understand 
it. 

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And then in 2016, the docks were
a lot better and I started 

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looking into them. 
And by that point I had had 

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enough varied experience, 
writing code at a lot of 

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different startups as a, as a 
founder and as a several and as 

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An employee at many others and 
I've been doing that for 10 

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years starting in 2006, my first
term in college and it's very 

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sort of lucked out that I 
actually graduated considering 

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that. 
But yeah, so I've been working 

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stars for a long time. 
Seen a lot of different things 

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robotics distributed systems, 
web programming. 

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And the. 
So I had enough breath of 

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background to understand, why 
herb, it is interesting. 

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Technically not very much depth 
of background in that and that 

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much actually, it's a lot of 
learning about networking and 

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operating systems programming 
languages. 

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I've had to learn a lot of that,
on the job working honor of it. 

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But but yeah, that was what 
interested me in the project 

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primarily was just I encountered
it I looked at and thought this 

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gets a lot of stuff right that 
I've never seen gotten right 

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before in program, in a way that
just just the basic ideas of 

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what it is, that you build a 
program out of how those 

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programs are situated, how they 
communicate with each other, 

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what they do, how the networking
Works, how identity works are 

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the operating system works, all.
This is so much cleaner than 

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anything else that I've ever 
seen. 

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And I still feel that way and 
it's why I'm still excited to 

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work on her butt. 
So, yeah. 

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So that's That's kind of my the 
recent part of my story and and 

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the and now at every foundation.
So we've just switched gears to 

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doing a lot of core development 
in-house. 

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And so we're hiring a number of 
guys to we'd like we have hired 

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a number of people and we will 
be hiring some more to work on 

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to do more Court of. 
And so expanding the size of the

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core Dev team that's to work on 
the urban OS itself, how the 

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different parts of it. 
And really to push it over the 

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hump to become a bulletproof 
consumer product. 

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Cool. 
Thanks so much for for that. 

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I want to start. 
I want to also kind of get into 

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something else briefly. 
So, you know, most of the 

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listeners of this podcast here 
in Champion talk about crypto. 

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We have done some orbit podcast 
before we did one in 2017 with 

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gaalan, which I listen to not 
long ago and it's still pretty 

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current. 
So we'll link to that in the 

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show. 
Show notes if people want to 

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check it out and then I think we
did another one this year with 

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Josh Lehman of the orbit 
Foundation is executive 

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director, of third foundation. 
So there's like a little bit but

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I still, I think most people 
writer but it's not easy to wrap

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your head around and I think 
most people kind of still 

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struggle with that. 
So it would be great if you 

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could sort of describe for let's
say for this kind of audience, 

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you know that kind of gets 
crypto that gets things around 

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that but maybe don't know about 
irbid. 

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Like what is orbit? 
It sure. 

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Yeah. 
Well I think for a crypto 

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audience, I would say, you know,
the one of the foundational part

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of the foundational ethos of 
crypto in general is not your 

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keys, not your coins, right? 
So you own your assets, 

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fundamentally through control of
the private key. and one way to 

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think about herb, it is that 
we're extending that, not just 

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to money, but to all of 
computing, So you own your 

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computer with a private key, you
own that computers identity on 

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the network with a private key. 
And and then you have full 

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control over that computer. 
So what data is stores with 

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programs, that runs how it 
communicates with whom it 

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communicates and and then I'll 
and then all those apps that you

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install into it, the programs 
that you actually run on. 

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There are designed to run in a 
decentralized manner so there's 

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no Central server. 
No central point of failure. 

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No Central choke point and That 
this is. 

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So it's sort of one way to think
about herb. 

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It is it's trying to build the 
same world that the rest of 

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crypto is trying to build and 
it's building all the pieces of 

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that world that aren't on chain 
because you don't actually want 

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to stick everything. 
All logic and all data onto a 

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bottom. 
It's not the right solution for 

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everything. 
It's the resolution for anything

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where you need Byzantine fault 
tolerance. 

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Right. 
So you need a global consensus 

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on. 
Who owns what? 

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Even Global consensus on which, 
which transactions have been 

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performed right? 
For, you know, if you're 

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sharing, if you're all sharing 
the same computer like in 

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etherium, right? 
You're all sharing the same 

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computer. 
You just need a way to guarantee

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that we all share that same 
computer State even if even if 

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it's adversarial. 
But that's only a subset of the 

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world of computing. 
And for everything else where 

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you don't want or need that kind
of Byzantine fault tolerance. 

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That's where it comes in. 
So that's really I want to store

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personal data. 
I want to use chat. 

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I want to do file sharing. 
I want to do video streaming for

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any of those things. 
Yeah, you want, you want the 

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world that crypto is promising, 
but blockchains can't do it 

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individual applications. 
Can't do it very well because 

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the current stack wasn't 
designed for decentralized 

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world, the modern internet Unix,
all these things, they were not 

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designed to be as or Multipolar 
decentralized system. 

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And so the, ER, B thesis the 
core of the urban thesis is that

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which is actually older than 
blockchains But that thesis is 

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that fundamentally. 
Getting to a decentralized world

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that same world that crypto 
promises is a technical problem 

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and it's a technical problem 
that needs to be solved by an 

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operating system that is 
designed from the ground up to 

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support peer-to-peer 
applications. 

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Thanks, I really appreciate how 
you explain that. 

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I think that's a, that's a very 
nice way of phrasing it and I do

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think that hopefully works 
pretty well for, you know, 

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people coming from from a crypto
go. 

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I hope. 
So, I've been trying for a 

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while, you know, Gary actually 
has his own way of describing it

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that I don't mean to put you on 
the spot, but I've heard you 

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describe it very well. 
I actually don't know if it I 

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mean it could be explained 
better. 

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Probably, I don't know if it 
really needs to be elaborated on

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necessarily. 
I mean, I think irbid kind of, 

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is designed as a unified system.
So, in the context of, like, if 

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you're trying to organize your 
Digital Life, a lot of people do

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this by, like only buying Apple 
products, for instance, or only 

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using, you know, Google Apps 
suite for all of their 

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productivity. 
And, you know, there's all these

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ways that you can try to unify 
the system that you use. 

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So that everything you use kind 
of makes sense. 

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As with each other and I think 
part of the herb, it's tsys is 

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that things actually make much 
more sense. 

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If you have a system that works 
for everybody for all purposes, 

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that is truly a universal 
language that people can come to

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consensus on without any 
compromises. 

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Yeah, that's so that's kind of 
like the idea of taste, you 

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know, Universal Computing, 
environment. 

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And I guess what ties in there 
is that whole bunch of stuff 

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that today, I guess don't happen
at the operating system level of

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do happen at the operating 
system level in orbit, right? 

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So like let's say something like
authentication where as you know

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today is okay, you want to sign 
into some application. 

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Then you can use like Google 
sign-in with Google, or you can 

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use signing of a poor and, but 
those are like separate separate

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kind of ecosystems and they're 
not kind, not quite compatible. 

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Whereas, in irbid you have like 
over the ID and then, that is a 

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universal thing that anyone can 
access. 

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Yeah, that's right. 
And I mean, I think it's 

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actually fairly obvious in a 
case of like, it, hypothetical 

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world where there was only 
Urban, and, you know, Irvin had 

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no incumbant that it was trying 
to You against it would be kind 

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of obvious. 
I think that identity is 

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something that you only have one
of, its kind of baked into the 

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word identity that you have one.
And so a lot of things that 

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don't work properly in like the 
web to ecosystem and even web 3 

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actually. 
The reason why they're not quite

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compatible is because the 
identities just aren't 

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compatible with each other. 
And so if you have a unified 

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identity system at a very early 
point in the stack, a lot of 

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problems just go away. 
They kind of, it's not even that

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they're solving. 
Solved. 

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It's that. 
The preconditions for the 

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problems never even come about. 
Yeah, that's right. 

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Like most people don't know, for
example, that IP and TCP, you 

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know, the protocols that the 
internet uses don't have any 

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concept of authentication or 
encryption. 

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Those have to be bolted on 
higher layers and because of 

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that, you get all kinds of 
issues. 

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You get a whole field of Ip, 
security, ipsec, DNS, security, 

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DNS SEC, right? 
Like these things basically 

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shouldn't exist, they should be 
in the network protocols. 

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But these numbers Protocols are 
50 years old before anybody even

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thought to use encryption. 
And before there were, when they

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were maybe 10 people on the 
internet instead of billions. 

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So yeah. 
So whether it, those those 

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things are built in at every 
package, Is authenticated and 

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encrypted. 
One, one question, actually, 

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when Gary, and I were talking a 
little bit about the outlines, 

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and there's this question that I
think is is good question to ask

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right here. 
So, you know, herb it describes 

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itself as this clean slate. 
And, you know, you talked about 

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these, like, Global protocols 
like TCP and I IP, so can you 

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talk a little bit about, you 
know, how much of kind of the 

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existing internet? 
And Computing stack like, how 

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much does irbid like throw? 
Away and to what extent our 

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existing technology still being 
used in orbit. 

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Well, at a basic level with 
throws them all away. 

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And but it's not the that's not 
the whole story because despite 

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that, we know that orbit must 
exist in the present and be 

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useful for people in the 
present. 

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And so however it also has the 
capability of acting as a web 

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server to the old web and making
web requests HTTP requests. 

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So this allows you to access it 
from your browser access it from

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your phone. 
You know, have a serve Serve a 

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vlog for you racing. 
The studio app from Tyrell, lets

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you post a blog post a blog 
using your Urban and even 

227
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,500
they're working on. 
Adding a pay wall to that too. 

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So you can even take payments 
three orbit. 

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00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:03,300
So it herb. 
It is not basically Urban's 

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00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,800
Building A Whole New World unto 
itself, right? 

231
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,300
So everything from machine code,
programming language operating 

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system, kernel set of 
applications Network, Tikal 

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00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:19,200
identity system all the but that
new world can communicate to the

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00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,400
old world because that's can 
because that's very important in

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00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,000
practice. 
Cool, thanks for everything 

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00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,200
that. 
Well, maybe we can go to Gary 

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Ossipee flea and maybe you can 
tell us a little bit about you. 

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00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,600
And how did you get into urban 
what was the thing that captured

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00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,500
your attention when it came to 
irbid? 

240
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:46,300
I don't think my background is 
particularly interesting, but I 

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00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,600
was before, I mean I knew about 
her bit for a couple of years 

242
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,900
before I got really into it and 
I underestimated it for a very 

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00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:57,400
long time. 
I would say what got me really 

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00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,000
into it was struggling with two 
things that I didn't quite 

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understand were related one was 
that I was trying to organize my

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00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:08,700
digital life in a way that 
really made sense to me and 

247
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optimize my workflows kind of 
just running on the Option that 

248
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,400
I realized I'm much happier and 
much more productive in my 

249
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,200
physical life when I'm well 
organized. 

250
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,500
So, I should be able to apply 
that same logic digitally and 

251
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just coming up against multiple 
blockers everywhere, where it's 

252
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000
like, okay, to actually solve 
this problem. 

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It's like a full-time job for 10
people creating and maintaining 

254
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,100
a system that actually does what
I wanted to do. 

255
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:37,900
So that was one thing and also 
just noticing on the other hand,

256
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:43,100
I mean, it was right after 
covid, just how dystopian web to

257
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,900
was it wasn't surprising to me 
at all that. 

258
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:49,600
We had like this huge increase 
in like political violence and 

259
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,300
transgression with the same time
that everybody was stuck in 

260
00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:55,000
their houses with nothing but 
web to entertain them. 

261
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,000
Like it seemed very clear that 
that was like an insanity 

262
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,300
inducing situation and urban I 
think successfully made the case

263
00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:06,700
that that was also a downstream 
from the same technological 

264
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:10,600
problems that led to my my own 
inability to organize my digital

265
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,700
life in a way that was automated
and made sense. 

266
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000
And so I gave her bit the 
benefit of the doubt enough that

267
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,100
maybe if I learn something about
it and I spent quite a lot of 

268
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:24,400
time learning it but I could 
kind of test the assumptions and

269
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,900
at least make a case for why it 
was or was not a waste of time 

270
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,800
and by the time I was done and 
felt satisfied that I understood

271
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,700
it, I was totally Able to 
recreate the conditions that I 

272
00:16:36,708 --> 00:16:40,900
had before, where I was not 
complete orbit maximalist, I 

273
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,500
can't even remember what it's 
like to believe that there's any

274
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,500
other possibility for the future
computer. 

275
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:54,000
Fairly common story actually. 
You know, there's this question.

276
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,200
I kind of wanted to get to at 
the end, but I think we should 

277
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,100
get to it now. 
So, you know, we've talked 

278
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:04,300
about, you know, if you've 
touched on earlier the bit like 

279
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:08,200
what's different and, you know, 
you guys have both alluded a 

280
00:17:08,208 --> 00:17:12,700
little bit as to why you're 
excited about it, but if he, if 

281
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:18,599
he now kind of think forward and
imagine that irbid, you know, 

282
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:23,300
really accomplishes. 
The things it's trying to 

283
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:28,700
accomplish right like so it 
really I get so it's you know 

284
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,000
fully realizes its ultimate 
potential. 

285
00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:35,700
What does that look like? 
How long does it take and what 

286
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:39,600
does the world look like what's 
different for people in the way 

287
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,100
they use technology in the way? 
They live their lives in the way

288
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:46,300
political systems work you know 
like what is what are the kind 

289
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,200
of visions and ideas that you 
guys have around this? 

290
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,900
I can start with a few things. 
So one is that I think you'll 

291
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:59,900
end up with a lot more. 
Localism is one word and you end

292
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:05,100
up with a lot more subcultures 
that are sort of each of the 

293
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:10,000
subcultures will be autonomous 
in a way that they aren't really

294
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,500
digitally autonomous at the 
moment. 

295
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,200
If you're running a subreddit 
the subreddit might just get 

296
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,100
shut down. 
All right, the mobs could have a

297
00:18:17,108 --> 00:18:22,100
bad day and you know, And then 
you're not there anything and 

298
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,000
that culture can be gone, you 
can have it to you know, via 

299
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,100
Twitter poster and then big 
following and then put your foot

300
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:33,500
in your mouth one day and your 
account gets flagged by an AI. 

301
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,500
And band and then years of work 
that you put into developing 

302
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:42,600
that audience and, you know, 
sort of building a whole network

303
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,800
of personal connections based on
that can just be blown away in 

304
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,500
an instant by essentially 
mistake. 

305
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,000
Alright. 
And so this is actually kind of 

306
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:58,600
puts a damper on the ability for
through subcultures to form and 

307
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,600
so you end up with more of a 
monoculture, right? 

308
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,000
So I think Trent from oh, Liam 
said you Facebook is 3 billion 

309
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,400
users No culture and I really 
stuck with me. 

310
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,000
So I think the, your son 
entirely sure there's some 

311
00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:17,200
right, but I think it's what 
we'll see is a lot more of those

312
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,000
a lot more subcultures that, 
that are able to flower more, 

313
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:23,500
right there able to develop 
their own art, their own ways of

314
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,800
communicating. 
They may eventually physically 

315
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,600
co-locate, they may do a Balaji 
Style Network State. 

316
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,200
They may do something else, I 
think. 

317
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:38,300
That's sort of digital, like the
ability for people to 

318
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:44,400
coordinate, collaborate online 
has been hamstrung by a lack of 

319
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,800
ability to, for people to 
control their own software, 

320
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:51,400
right? 
So you know, you're probably in 

321
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:57,700
some signal group chats and not 
just signal scattered all over 

322
00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:00,100
the place, really, right? 
But for any one of those you 

323
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,700
can't, you can't say, oh well 
let's let's Fork signal the 

324
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,800
signal client, right? 
Like let's let's have it, 

325
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:12,000
integrated something. 
Integrate of the calendar even 

326
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,900
read something basic where 
there's just, no way to do that,

327
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,800
because that's its own world, 
right? 

328
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,800
It's siloed, right? 
And so, basically, that's sort 

329
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,100
of limitation where you kind of 
can't just arbitrarily extend 

330
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,800
things. 
You can't arbitrarily get your 

331
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,100
programs to work with each 
other. 

332
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:32,200
That's a big cause of what well,
Gary was saying he ran into, but

333
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,800
it also just prevents like, 
groups social groups and other 

334
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:42,300
kinds of organizations from From
being able to really make the 

335
00:20:42,308 --> 00:20:47,900
most out of network computers. 
So by so nervous for the flips, 

336
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:50,900
the whole situation on its head 
because right now, you have to, 

337
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,000
you have to go through some big 
Central server to do, almost 

338
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,500
anything on the internet. 
And instead, this is no, you can

339
00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:02,600
download an app into your irbid 
run at yourself, and you have 

340
00:21:02,608 --> 00:21:06,200
full control over that yourself.
And then you and people, you 

341
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,700
want to collaborate with have 
control over that, that small 

342
00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:13,700
Network. 
So it's much more bottom-up. 

343
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,500
And so I think like, we're 
really not used to seeing 

344
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,300
bottom-up organization 
digitally, but I think that what

345
00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,300
it's going to look like mostly 
is yeah, better art more art 

346
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,700
better. 
Like, I think more seamless 

347
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:29,300
economic activity, right? 
Like people a lot more people, 

348
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:31,900
starting small companies 
starting small, little 

349
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:38,500
investment, coops starting local
businesses, things like that. 

350
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:40,900
I think that and getting local 
investment, right? 

351
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:43,000
So, all sorts of things. 
Things that in all kinds of 

352
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,500
different modes of interactivity
that are very difficult to build

353
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:51,100
right now, right? 
So, you know, if there's an 

354
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:53,900
interesting example of this 
which is an app called radio on 

355
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:58,000
herba that was built a couple 
months ago and it's sort of like

356
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,500
a jukebox for video. 
So y'all get into this room. 

357
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:05,300
You can set which videos playing
and then Q another video and 

358
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:07,500
then people can talk about it as
it's going, right? 

359
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:13,600
And you know it's not a not an 
earth-shattering application but

360
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,900
it's it's something new. 
That's something that you can't 

361
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:21,400
build otherwise. 
And so it's just sort of one 

362
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,500
little hint as as to what sorts 
of you can just have this. 

363
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:29,300
Lots of different kinds of 
interactivity different. 

364
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:34,200
Kinds of bottom-up, social 
organization that are infeasible

365
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,000
in the modern Computing setup. 
Yeah, and just one thing to add 

366
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000
to that, I think I've key 
importance is the idea that 

367
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,100
within a unified system, a 
small-time app developer can 

368
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,600
actually have a big impact 
because they are working within 

369
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,800
the same language as the rest of
the world, meaning to things in 

370
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,400
terms of culture, there can be 
an application made between 

371
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,600
friends in a group and not have 
this. 

372
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,100
You know, this big hump to 
overcome to actually get it 

373
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:05,500
usable between everybody. 
If I develop an app for just the

374
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:09,900
people in my friend group, It 
would be very easy in irbid 

375
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:14,300
world to just have them download
it and try it and use it and it 

376
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:17,100
wouldn't necessarily have 
compatibility issues with the 

377
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,600
rest of their Digital Life. 
And that also makes a lot of 

378
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,400
sense in a business context. 
So if you're running a business 

379
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,200
and you realize that you have a 
very lucrative small business 

380
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,100
model and you're asking the 
question of what would it take 

381
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:34,100
to franchise this business? 
Probably the answer to your 

382
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:37,100
question, includes, you know, 
you need some kind of software. 

383
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,900
And that you know, that captures
the entire business logic of 

384
00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:45,700
your operation and this is in 
practice not possible for most 

385
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:49,000
small businesses you have to 
overcome a significant financial

386
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,500
barrier to do that kind of 
thing. 

387
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:54,400
But on a unified you know 
software ecosystem. 

388
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,600
It actually becomes quite quite 
a reasonable proposition, I 

389
00:23:58,608 --> 00:24:02,500
wouldn't call it easy but it's 
much more accessible to Simply 

390
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,600
capture the logic of the 
business within one program and 

391
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,000
that I think would lead to 
exponential productivity gains 

392
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,800
in pretty much any industry. 
Yeah, just to elaborate on that 

393
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,900
a little bit. 
So there's One of the big 

394
00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:25,300
differences between writing code
in turbot and writing code for 

395
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:30,500
the normal internet is the 
distance between writing a toy 

396
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,800
and writing a production 
application. 

397
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,400
So normally in the normal 
Internet and mobile Computing, a

398
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,300
programmer can take a weekend 
and write a toy, right? 

399
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,900
And that toy would be usable. 
It has the business logic, 

400
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600
right? 
This rib meat of the application

401
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,500
is there? 
But it's nowhere near something 

402
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:53,400
that people could use, right? 
So you can't just sort of have 

403
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,600
your friends use it. 
Have it work, have it be 

404
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,100
something that is actually part 
of your lives in order to get to

405
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:01,200
that stage. 
You have to do a lot of devops. 

406
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,300
You have to do you have to have 
some sort of authentication 

407
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:07,700
system maybe a few with backups 
what happens if somebody forgets

408
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:09,700
their email address or whatever,
right? 

409
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,900
I mean you have to administer a 
bunch of servers. 

410
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,500
So if the to have some sort of 
cloud infrastructure, you may 

411
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:21,500
find yourself researching 
kubernetes Docker, right? 

412
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:25,200
And there's this whole long list
of tools that the modern 

413
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,700
programmer has to be familiar 
with in order to actually deploy

414
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:30,200
an application to users, even if
it's just a web page. 

415
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:37,000
And so it's that that difference
between the the meat of the 

416
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,600
system and all the sort of 
rigmarole of a deployment that's

417
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,700
what brings in a ton of extra 
costs. 

418
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:47,300
That makes it prohibitive to 
just say hey and we've got a few

419
00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:49,300
friends here. 
Let's let's write a Slap that 

420
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:50,700
does this thing that we needed 
to do. 

421
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:56,200
And so this is this is true 
already, right? 

422
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,400
So a good example of this is 
Now, Justin Murphy commission 

423
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,500
somebody to write an app called 
page. 

424
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:11,100
And it lets you copy some HTML 
into your orbit and serve it as 

425
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:14,200
a web page because he just 
needed to serve some simple 

426
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,100
stuff. 
So, he asked somebody to build 

427
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:17,700
this forum. 
I think you paid him five 

428
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:21,200
hundred dollars took a weekend 
and now that happens is I 

429
00:26:21,208 --> 00:26:22,500
installed on my rib. 
It works fine. 

430
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:24,800
All right, so I was able to 
download this. 

431
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,700
Run it myself. 
On my own herb right from $500 

432
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:35,300
worth of work and that's that's 
a fairly unusual setup and we're

433
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:36,900
going to make that even better 
in the future. 

434
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,500
So it will reduce that cost even
further and that difference will

435
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:44,900
continue to increase. 
So that's I think one of the one

436
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:46,800
of the things that's most 
exciting from a developer 

437
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,800
standpoint, it's like a you can 
about her is that you can write 

438
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,100
something publish it literally 
in a weekend and it's real it's 

439
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:59,100
already real. 
Yeah, I mean this is one of the 

440
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:06,100
ways if I explain orbit that I 
also tend to emphasize is, you 

441
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:10,300
know, if you are developing a 
new web application or some kind

442
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:13,700
of application is normal web 
that because you have these 

443
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,800
additional things that, okay? 
Now I'm going to have to run 

444
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,100
some infrastructure for it and 
the cloud and well, what does it

445
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,300
mean? 
I mean, I have to make like an 

446
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:27,900
AWS account and now I have to 
pee Every month, and if there's 

447
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:31,800
more users have to pay more. 
So now all of a sudden, I have 

448
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,200
to run a business, right? 
And I have to have revenues to 

449
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,000
do that, and maybe that means I 
have to run raise investment or 

450
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
I have to charge people. 
And maybe I didn't want to do 

451
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,300
that. 
I just wanted to create 

452
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:49,600
something right that, like, 
people wanted to use and and in 

453
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,200
irbid, you can kind of do that, 
right? 

454
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,000
I could. 
Develop some simple application,

455
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,200
maybe people love it and it 
million people are going to run 

456
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,200
it on there, you know, on their 
orbits. 

457
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,700
And I don't have to do anything 
right after charge, anything and

458
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,600
the pay for any infrastructure. 
And I think that's just going to

459
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:16,600
be so attractive for developers.
And it's going to like unleash 

460
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,800
such a new class of 
applications. 

461
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,200
People will build and people 
play around. 

462
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:24,400
Round with and so much 
creativity, that becomes 

463
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,600
possible when you not everything
has to be connected. 

464
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,100
If some business that you have 
to build, Yeah, I would say 

465
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:36,400
generally there's a very large 
class of questions that begin 

466
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,100
with. 
Why can't I just that turbot 

467
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,900
allows you to adjust and, and 
shipping code to somebody's 

468
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:45,400
computer is definitely one of 
them. 

469
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,900
Why can't I just build an 
application? 

470
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:49,600
You download it from me and run 
it. 

471
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,000
Another one is why can't I just 
send you a file? 

472
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:54,700
Why do I need Dropbox, right? 
These are these are just 

473
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:57,000
questions that you only have to 
ask. 

474
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,400
Because if the kind of insanity 
and Computing and Herby I think 

475
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,500
Is kind of fundamentally trying 
to provide that sanity. 

476
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,500
So let's talk a little bit 
about, you know, what is Arabic 

477
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,200
today. 
You know what's the current 

478
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,000
state of technology and what are
the limitations of the system? 

479
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:25,400
Sure, yeah, so today, first of 
all, orbit does wrong, sometimes

480
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:32,000
we'd ask that still, but it's 
been running since 2013 and the 

481
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,200
so you can you can get an orbit,
you can buy one off of theorem 

482
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:41,000
and so you can buy an orbit ID. 
Once you have that Urban ID, you

483
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,900
can boot your ship which is a 
name for your node. 

484
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:47,600
So you can boot your orbit. 
You can run that yourself on 

485
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,200
your laptop. or pay one of a few
different hosting providers to 

486
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,600
run up for you or you can run it
yourself in the cloud if you're 

487
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,900
willing to do a little bit of 
system administration You can 

488
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:02,500
also move it from any of those 
three places to any of the 

489
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:06,200
others and Gary actually been 
working on standardizing the 

490
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,500
protocols for how that can be 
moved from place to place. 

491
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:13,400
But you can do it yourself 
already so Urban you can you can

492
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,300
get one, you can run it and you 
can install apps into it and the

493
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:20,300
bait, it comes with a suite of 
apps. 

494
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:27,300
The flagship apps are groups and
chat so you can chat and groups 

495
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:33,300
it looks Looks like Discord, 
it's our, you know, our slack, 

496
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:35,700
something like that, right? 
It's chat app. 

497
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,700
It's sort of asymptotically 
approaching feature. 

498
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:43,200
Parity with those, there was a 
recent update that made it a lot

499
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,300
closer actually, nowadays, 
threaded conversations and Emoji

500
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:51,000
reactions, and it's starting to 
feel very similar to any other 

501
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,800
chat app. 
So that's mostly what people use

502
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,800
our bit for right now. 
But you can also install any 

503
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,400
number of other apps And they're
about over 80 of them that have 

504
00:31:02,408 --> 00:31:05,500
been published publicly. 
It's hard to know how many of 

505
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,700
them exist total, but there, 
yeah, many dozens that you can 

506
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,900
try out and some of those are 
more important than others. 

507
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:13,300
I would say. 
So, for example, there's one 

508
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:18,300
called campfire that lets you do
video chat, That gets that's 

509
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:21,600
over webrtc but it's negotiated 
by orbit, so it's fully 

510
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,000
decentralized. 
Peer-to-peer video call. 

511
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,000
I'm so And they're all kinds of 
other things that people are 

512
00:31:29,008 --> 00:31:33,600
building. 
So that's where turbots Act and 

513
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,700
the tricep works pretty well. 
There's some rough edges, I 

514
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:42,600
would say that the the big 
limitations have to do with 

515
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:46,900
scaling and hardening. 
And some with developer 

516
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:51,800
experience. 
So as a user basically you know 

517
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,600
if you join a group that has 
more than a few thousand members

518
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,400
and there are few of these 
groups, then it might be kind of

519
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,100
slow, right? 
It works but it's a bit slow. 

520
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,100
And if you're publishing a group
that has many thousands of 

521
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:09,400
members, then you generally have
to do some maintenance work on 

522
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,100
your server, to make sure it 
doesn't run out of memory. 

523
00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:14,600
So, herb, it is supposed to not 
require any maintenance from the

524
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,500
user should maintain its Right? 
So it's not quite there yet and 

525
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:21,300
in particular with scale, right?
So if you're supporting a lot of

526
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:25,200
a lot of subscribers than the 
system doesn't scale as well as 

527
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,400
it should. 
And so you have to do some 

528
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,400
maintenance work and things get 
slow. 

529
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:34,300
And so that has to do with the 
reasons for that are basically 

530
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:38,800
to fold both. 
Well, three, there are three 

531
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,200
reasons. 
Essentially one is that there's 

532
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,100
a limitation to how much data 
you can store in your orbit 

533
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:46,300
right now. 
There's also Old, it just 

534
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,800
doubled, but it's still. 
It's still limited. 

535
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,400
That's, there's a limit to that.
There's a limit to the amount of

536
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,800
network bandwidth that you're a 
bit, can take advantage of. 

537
00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:59,800
So we're working on that as 
well. 

538
00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:02,300
And then finally herb is 
programming language. 

539
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:11,300
Knock machine code is, is slow. 
So the so the combination of 

540
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,400
those three things makes put 
some scaling limitations on the 

541
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,400
All three of those are under 
active development and I don't 

542
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,900
expect any of them to be 
showstoppers but but that's 

543
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:27,000
that's the status. 
So the other aspect is 

544
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,100
hardening. 
So basically there it's this 

545
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:31,800
refers mostly to security 
Sumter. 

546
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,800
Reliabilities, there's some 
reliability issues are still 

547
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,400
some bugs. 
Sometimes, I think crashes. 

548
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,700
Much, much less frequent than it
used to be, but it still 

549
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:44,600
happens. 
And so getting the system to be 

550
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,400
really Bulletproof. 
Reliable. 

551
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:52,000
That's one of the big things 
we've got to do and and a very 

552
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,600
closely related phenomenon, is 
making sure that it can't be 

553
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,400
hacked into. 
All right, so making sure that 

554
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,800
it's secure. 
So that people can't get into 

555
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,000
your orbit and download all your
chats and, you know, we want 

556
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,700
people to be able to store 
private key is for, you know, 

557
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,900
relatively small amounts of 
money. 

558
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:11,699
But but you should be able to 
store private keys in irbid and 

559
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:13,500
answer anything other than like,
your life savings. 

560
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:15,500
It should be relatively safe. 
You should feel secure about it.

561
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:21,800
We're definitely not there yet. 
So as a caveat like if you go 

562
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,199
play with her but keep in mind 
it has not been audited for 

563
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,199
security. 
There's a good chance that there

564
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,600
are vulnerabilities in there so 
treated accordingly but that's 

565
00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:33,699
also under active development. 
So there's a hardening process 

566
00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,800
that we're taking the system 
through and the other piece of 

567
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,600
that I would say is protection 
against denial of service 

568
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,300
attacks which is I think going 
to be a sort of long tail of 

569
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,400
hardening to make it sort of 
able to resist. 

570
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,300
Larger and larger and more and 
more. 

571
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:55,400
Well, resource groups of people 
who are attempting to just shut 

572
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,700
down the network, or at least 
shut down your ship on the 

573
00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:00,400
network, your node. 
So there's a lot of work to be 

574
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,600
done on that front as well. 
Also not I'm not particularly, 

575
00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:08,200
you know, worried about it but 
it's a fair amount of work in 

576
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,800
front of us to do that. 
The third remaining limitation. 

577
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,200
I would say is in developer 
experience. 

578
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,900
So basically there's when it's a
pretty new world, right? 

579
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:19,900
You got a whole new holding 
machine code. 

580
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:22,600
Whole new language woman, 
operating system, old, sort of 

581
00:35:22,607 --> 00:35:26,900
Paradigm, of programming, and 
all these things are 10 times 

582
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:33,500
newer than existing world. 
And so there's a lot of tooling 

583
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:34,900
that herb. 
It doesn't have that other 

584
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,600
systems have. 
So a lot of the so that this 

585
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,100
developer experience is very 
good already in some ways, but 

586
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,400
Other ways that needs a lot of 
work. 

587
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,500
And so, a lot of that has to do 
with building, tooling building 

588
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:48,200
debuggers and having a better, 
you know, printer pretty printer

589
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,600
for data and a lot of other 
technical stuff, but basically 

590
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,000
making it just a lot, bring 
building a lot of tools for 

591
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,900
developers, and there's a deeper
peace of that, which is making 

592
00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:02,900
sure that the apis that are 
presented to a user space 

593
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:06,300
program or somebody writing an 
app to make sure that the way 

594
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,500
that you interface with the 
operating system is clean and 

595
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:13,200
easy to use. 
Use and particular easy to it 

596
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,700
should make it easy to write a 
program. 

597
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:17,000
That's correct. 
And so there's a big problem 

598
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,600
with this right now without 
which has to do with 

599
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,200
subscriptions. 
And so there's a whole set of 

600
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,200
complex of projects that were 
working on over the next year or

601
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,400
two called subscription reform 
to redo orbits subscription 

602
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,200
system. 
So how you synchronize data from

603
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,000
Urban turbot actually get a lot 
simpler cleaner and and more 

604
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,900
scalable as well. 
So there's a roadmap, dr. 

605
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:42,400
B dot org, has That's a pretty 
new thing where we, where we 

606
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,000
laid out the technical roadmap 
for urban. 

607
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,100
So if you're interested in going
deeper on the technical details 

608
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,600
of exactly where the systems at 
and what needs to be done to 

609
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:55,700
improve it. 
That has some pretty detailed 

610
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:58,900
explanations and linked to 
ongoing work on, get up. 

611
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,000
Cool, thanks. 
Yeah, I mean I was with Gary 

612
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,500
were actually looking a little 
bit at the roadmap the other day

613
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,200
and it has to say it's like very
nicely presented and so will 

614
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,500
also link to that. 
So if people want to go deep and

615
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:16,400
check it out, what are the 
timelines in this? 

616
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,700
Like when Rainy's herb it. 
I don't know. 

617
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:25,100
Do you see? 
Do you see kind of different 

618
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:30,400
stages of Readiness of irbid 
coming up for different types 

619
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,800
of? 
I don't degrees of adoption. 

620
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,600
And what does that look like? 
And yeah, on what time frames? 

621
00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:41,800
I think this is a little bit of 
an aggressive timeframe, but I 

622
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:49,900
generally say around two years 
to get to having a To have it, 

623
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:55,200
be bulletproof and scalable 
enough and reliable enough 

624
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,700
basically. 
So there's the system will 

625
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:00,800
continue to improve basically 
forever. 

626
00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:05,700
The kernel itself will actually 
stop improving at some point, 

627
00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:07,100
the version numbers go down to 
zero. 

628
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:09,900
We call this K versioning and 
this is to standardize the 

629
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:13,800
system. 
So so all the different parts of

630
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,900
the kernel, each have a k 
version, those all go down to 

631
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:19,800
zero, knock the machine code is 
that k for and And I actually 

632
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,100
did a podcast, we talked about 
what might cause it to go to 

633
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,600
version 3. 
But at the moment we don't 

634
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,700
actually see that happening. 
We think that's probably done 

635
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,000
but the colonel different parts 
of the kernel or versions, you 

636
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,400
know, 144 the language up to 
about 400 for the standard 

637
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Library. 
So, there are a finite number of

638
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,100
versions of we have to play with
there, which will take somewhere

639
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,200
between 20 and 200 years to 
really congeal all the way down.

640
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,000
But the, but that's the colonel.
There's also the runtime, which 

641
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,500
is the program that runs your 
Urban and that is not K version 

642
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:56,100
it so that will continue to 
improve forever. 

643
00:38:56,100 --> 00:39:00,600
But that's basically just making
making it faster and faster over

644
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,400
time. 
So there's no sort of fixed 

645
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,900
Point. 
There's no, like, one point 

646
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,300
rule, say Urban has done 
exactly. 

647
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,700
But there's a point where we 
will be able to say this handles

648
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,100
all the kinds of applications 
that we want to handle and I 

649
00:39:17,107 --> 00:39:19,800
think we'll be able to handle 
most of those by two years from 

650
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,600
now. 
And so that includes having 

651
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400
being able to confidently, say 
this thing is secure. 

652
00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:28,100
Nobody's going to be able to 
steal your data out of an ex 

653
00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:31,700
will treat your data. 
It'll scale. 

654
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,100
Well, so if you want to have a 
million people in a trap Channel

655
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,200
2 years from now, you should be 
able to have a million people in

656
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,200
chat. 
Jim So basically, it should it 

657
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,500
should approach the level of 
scaling of web to. 

658
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:47,600
And that's an interesting set of
problems. 

659
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:50,700
Most people don't don't think of
decentralized systems as being 

660
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:56,100
capable of scaling up to the 
size of web to where you need 

661
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:57,600
your many data centers. 
Run it herb. 

662
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,300
It actually is designed to do 
that. 

663
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:01,200
So there's a very interesting 
set of discussions to be had 

664
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,700
about how it plans with doing 
that, but I do think it's 

665
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:05,900
possible. 
We're on our way. 

666
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,000
So, it'll scale some, it'll be 
quite right and it'll be quite 

667
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,100
secure. 
It should be quite reliable. 

668
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:17,000
Like the, the program should not
crash and it should be 

669
00:40:17,008 --> 00:40:20,400
relatively easy to write. 
It should at least be yet. 

670
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,800
It should at least be relatively
straightforward to write an 

671
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,000
application that synchronizes 
data correctly, without having 

672
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,600
to worry about correctness. 
So like where it gets where it's

673
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,500
a correct application, without 
having to think too hard about 

674
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:35,300
it. 
Now, by two years from now, it 

675
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:36,500
may still have quite a bit of 
boilerplate. 

676
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,900
Play it, right? 
It might be kind of awkward 

677
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:43,100
clunky to write those programs, 
but when you write them, you 

678
00:40:43,107 --> 00:40:46,200
should be able to very quickly 
read them and say, yeah, okay, 

679
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,700
that's definitely right. 
We're not there yet, and mostly 

680
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:51,200
was missing. 
There is the interface to 

681
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,400
subscriptions the interface to 
synchronizing data. 

682
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:55,100
There are few other things that 
aren't great either. 

683
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,300
So I don't expect that that I 
think that that API, right? 

684
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:02,400
Like what it takes to write an 
application will be really, you 

685
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,900
know, smooth and just, you know,
really Polished by then I think 

686
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:10,300
that'll take another couple of 
years to really get to really 

687
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:15,000
get nice, but it should be 
possible to hook into scalable 

688
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,500
content distribution from an 
application so that you can 

689
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:21,600
support many people subscribing 
to you, like, in the millions 

690
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:28,800
and and to feel confident when 
you write it, that it's correct 

691
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,200
and that the colonel is 
handling. 

692
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:32,900
All of the sort of hard 
synchronization problems and 

693
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:34,100
other correctness issues for 
you. 

694
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,500
I was kind of wondering if there
are any applications that you 

695
00:41:39,508 --> 00:41:42,800
would like to see honor bit that
it's just not ready for it 

696
00:41:42,808 --> 00:41:46,200
because of, you know, the 
maturity of core development. 

697
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,200
And you know, when do you think 
it'll be possible and what it 

698
00:41:48,207 --> 00:41:51,500
will look like tons. 
Okay. 

699
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:52,900
I want to store all my files in 
there. 

700
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:59,000
I have hundreds of gigabytes of 
music recordings and photos. 

701
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:05,000
All kind, you know, hundreds of 
papers that have collected over 

702
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,600
the years, the corner. 
It's pure science, papers, 

703
00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:13,000
ebooks tons of stuff. 
And I actually I had them in 

704
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,500
Dropbox for a long time. 
Then I decide to stop paying for

705
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:16,600
Dropbox. 
They pulled him onto my 

706
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,500
computer's and I have 300 
gigabytes of just crap sitting 

707
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,700
there in my computer and we need
to upload it somewhere else and 

708
00:42:22,707 --> 00:42:27,000
I've gotten around to it, that 
should all be in my room. 

709
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,600
And not only should it be in my 
herb but yeah, I should be able 

710
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:31,900
to share that with you very 
easily. 

711
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:37,400
Alright, so in order to share 
media with you, Through orbit, 

712
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,900
you much higher. 
So, first of all, you'll be able

713
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:41,900
to store that data in orbit. 
It's too big right now. 

714
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,800
I need to be able to stream that
to you, or you need to be able 

715
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,600
to download it quickly. 
So we have to be able to max out

716
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,400
a network connection, right? 
For the for the bandwidth. 

717
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,900
So we need a better Network 
protocol and I need to be able 

718
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:54,900
to publish that to a lot of 
people to meet scalability, the 

719
00:42:54,908 --> 00:42:58,300
network protocol. 
So there's that right? 

720
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:02,400
Anything with file sharing 
podcasting, you know, live 

721
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,900
streaming. 
You should be able to do all 

722
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:06,200
that from your herb. 
Right. 

723
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,600
And like imagine doing a live 
stream from your urbis. 

724
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,800
It's fun to think of all the 
other stuff you could build in 

725
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:11,600
there. 
All different kinds of 

726
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,000
objectivity and Integrations 
with other other herb, adapts. 

727
00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:24,700
And then, the other thing is, I 
want to be able to store a lot 

728
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:29,400
of my private keys in orbit. 
So I think like, yeah, for for 

729
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,700
stuff that's like, where you 
really want to keep it cold, 

730
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,100
then okay. 
Yeah, keep it cold. 

731
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:36,400
Don't put in your orbit, but but
I want to have sort of What we 

732
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,000
aware? 
I'm paying my bills from right 

733
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:44,000
and where I'm, you know, sharing
expenses with friends, you want 

734
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,900
an urban version of what's the 
app called where you like y'all 

735
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:53,100
go to a restaurant and split 
wise, right? 

736
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:55,500
My friends and I use split wiser
for go to restroom. 

737
00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,300
So let's you settle up later. 
I think there's another one too.

738
00:43:58,300 --> 00:43:59,400
So I think there's more that 
there is. 

739
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Yeah yeah but anyway like that 
kind of a poor. 

740
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,900
It's like yeah here's how I 
handled my sort of day-to-day 

741
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:07,200
expenses. 
Has income Etc. 

742
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,200
Right? 
Like that. 

743
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,900
I should feel comfortable 
storing that my herb. 

744
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:13,000
Right? 
And then at not only that. 

745
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,100
But then from there, I can do 
things like have Urban integrate

746
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,500
with the lightning Network. 
Have it integrate with the Aztec

747
00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:23,900
protocol on ethereum? 
I would integrate with kenosis 

748
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:28,100
safe, safe. 
Now, I suppose, right? 

749
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,000
I have it integrate with all 
this different stuff, so but in 

750
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,200
order to do that, I have to be 
comfortable having some hot 

751
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,600
wallets inside my room. 
And so for that, it needs to be 

752
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,200
secured. 
Right. 

753
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,700
So there's this whole sort of 
big playground of all these 

754
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:43,800
things that could be built, 
right? 

755
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,700
It's like they're, those will be
toys until we make sure it's 

756
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:48,600
secure and then they can be done
for real. 

757
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,700
And so, I'm very much looking 
forward to those classes of 

758
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:55,800
applications. 
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the

759
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,800
podcasting thing because I think
this is actually like a very 

760
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,700
powerful example, right? 
So for those who like you don't 

761
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:06,100
know, basically if podcasts are 
podcasts are basically 

762
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:10,200
distributed via RSS feeds and 
says a podcaster. 

763
00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:15,100
You know, you putting up this 
podcast recording and then 

764
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:19,400
people download it and you 
don't. 

765
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,900
And there's a bunch of 
limitations that come with. 

766
00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:23,800
That one. 
Is that? 

767
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,200
You don't have any way of like 
messaging, those people. 

768
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,500
Like, if you want to build like 
a community of your podcast 

769
00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:33,600
listeners, then, you know, you'd
have to make this comment 

770
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,600
something of like, oh, you 
listening to this audio now go 

771
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,600
and clicking the link in the 
notes to go somewhere else and 

772
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,200
then we do this community or as 
it's so. 

773
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,800
But most, you know, 98% of 
people, they're just like, 

774
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,900
listen to it. 
And, and because it's so complex

775
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,300
and people don't even try. 
And of course, charging for 

776
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:56,600
podcast is also basically not. 
Civil or it's only possible 

777
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,300
through these again. 
Very, very terrible hacks that 

778
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:02,900
people do. 
So I think this is something 

779
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:08,900
where, you know, if you can just
distribute your content, message

780
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:12,100
everyone who's listening to it, 
maybe have better data about it 

781
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:15,500
too, because I think this is 
another thing that Paul said 

782
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,200
podcasting is very limited. 
If although I guess in irbid 

783
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,600
maybe this is also something 
orbit will be limited with no 

784
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,700
since people. 
What do you mean more? 

785
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:28,300
Better data. 
Well, I mean in podcasts like 

786
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:30,200
you don't know. 
For example, two people actually

787
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,200
listen to it or not. 
You only need to download 

788
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,000
analytics tracking that kind of 
stuff. 

789
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,200
Yeah. 
Well I think people could hide 

790
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,700
the fact that they've listened 
to your podcast relatively 

791
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:44,400
easily but most of your 
listeners probably wouldn't. 

792
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:48,200
So if you kind of requested that
information I think most of your

793
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,500
listeners would give it to you 
and you'd have a reasonable idea

794
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:52,100
of what your audience looks 
like. 

795
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,600
You can also track the 
networking requests coming into 

796
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,900
your orbit, right? 
So you can track just how many 

797
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:02,200
requests came in or I should say
you can build this sort of 

798
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,900
analytics to track that sort of 
thing on your irbid. 

799
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:08,600
There's a little bit of that in 
the runtime right now but it's 

800
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,000
not as granular as it could be. 
But yeah, you could, you could 

801
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,800
build a system like that. 
So that any time somebody tries 

802
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,400
to fetch this. 
We're fetching it for my herb, 

803
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,300
it, right? 
So I can tell you, may not know 

804
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:18,800
that. 
Exactly, if we end up building a

805
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,000
sort of distributed caching 
system, which is likely Yes. 

806
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,500
Um so yeah herb. 
It is re probably requires a 

807
00:47:25,500 --> 00:47:28,300
little bit more work to get 
really good analytics which just

808
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:29,700
has to do with sovereignty 
actually, right? 

809
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:31,700
Like there's act, there are some
places where you have 

810
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:35,700
fundamental trade-offs between 
privacy and sovereignty and 

811
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:38,500
being able to track what people 
do which is the opposite of 

812
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:40,800
that. 
But but I think there's quite a 

813
00:47:40,808 --> 00:47:43,300
bit of middle ground in there. 
What about you? 

814
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:46,700
Gary, you mean, you mentioned 
the example that I really liked 

815
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:50,200
and I hadn't actually fall off 
In this way before. 

816
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,000
You know having this business 
that like is in a code and you 

817
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,600
can kind of franchise it easily.
So I think that was a nice 

818
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,800
example but what else? 
What are some other use cases 

819
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,700
for her bit that you're most 
excited about? 

820
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,900
Actually, I think what I would 
find most useful are things that

821
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,400
are currently possible and just 
need a little more developer 

822
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,400
effort. 
So I'm very excited about 

823
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,200
anagram wholly-owned product 
which should work towards kind 

824
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,800
of Allocating the feature set of
notion on orbit. 

825
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,600
I personally find that if I'm 
journaling, even if I pretty 

826
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,300
much trust that I'm not going to
get snooped on by whatever third

827
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:30,700
party, owns my data. 
I'm just going to be a little 

828
00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:33,900
more hesitant to really speak 
freely about what I'm thinking. 

829
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:36,300
If I know that it doesn't, it's 
not private. 

830
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:41,300
And so, and so, I would much 
rather have something like that 

831
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:43,600
on my herb. 
It and I personally prefer to 

832
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,100
journal on my local computer 
rather than a more powerful 

833
00:48:47,100 --> 00:48:50,600
platform like notion for that. 
And I think for a big can do it.

834
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,500
I think it's just a matter of 
developer effort and kind of 

835
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:56,200
getting the ux, right? 
And another thing is task 

836
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,600
management. 
I use tasks Warrior which is a 

837
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,200
Linux program and it works 
really well, but I would 

838
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,200
probably prefer for that to be 
honored as well, because I would

839
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,200
have better sharing 
functionality and I wouldn't 

840
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,500
have to work within two 
different systems you don't use 

841
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:14,000
the emacs know. 
I don't usually mix that task 

842
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,100
for you is good enough. 
I don't get exactly. but no, I 

843
00:49:19,107 --> 00:49:23,500
mean These are kinds of ways. 
We're having a personal server, 

844
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:26,700
makes a lot of sense, because 
you have a variety of devices. 

845
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,300
I'm not going to carry my 
laptop, necessarily do all the 

846
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,500
same places that I might carry a
phone or a tablet. 

847
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:34,400
But I still want access to these
basic things like my notes and 

848
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,200
the things that I want to do and
these are low amounts of data, 

849
00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:41,200
it's just important to me that I
can access them from anywhere. 

850
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,400
And the only way to do that in a
sovereign way right now is to 

851
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,500
deal with honestly, just a very 
terrible ux and, you know, do 

852
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,500
probably Lee you know more more 
Linux work than most people want

853
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:55,300
to do. 
And I think our bid is going to 

854
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,000
make that much more accessible 
and you no more free. 

855
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,600
Well let's talk a little bit 
about I mean we've touched on it

856
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:12,100
in endpoints but about it the 
kind of crypto orbit Synergy. 

857
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:15,700
So once orbit you know let's say
two years from now we have 

858
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:20,300
addressed some of those issues 
around security scalability. 

859
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,000
You know you can keep your keys 
in irbid. 

860
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:28,900
It's pretty safe. 
What what does this convergence 

861
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:31,500
of crypto and Herb? 
It look like and you know, 

862
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:35,100
whether the most important 
implications of that, Yeah, I 

863
00:50:35,107 --> 00:50:38,800
think they're this is there a 
lot of implications from it and 

864
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,100
the convergence happens in 
several different ways and so 

865
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,700
there's actually a lot to talk 
about here. 

866
00:50:44,700 --> 00:50:49,700
I think so one is that we'll 
start with some basic ones, 

867
00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:51,800
right? 
So it's basically like anytime I

868
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,700
that I as a user want to 
interact with the chain, I 

869
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:59,900
should use my Urban to do that. 
So even if that something simple

870
00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:02,100
like, I want to use unit swap, 
right? 

871
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:05,700
There's a there's an app I'm on.
Irbid that serves Eunice op, you

872
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:08,500
know, swap front end, right? 
But I should be serving that to 

873
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:11,700
myself and Herb, it has very 
good properties for code sign, 

874
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,200
right? 
So, the software supply chain, 

875
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:19,600
can be sipped can be secured 
much more effectively honorable 

876
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,800
than through almost anything 
else because we have a real pki,

877
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,300
very real public key 
infrastructure. 

878
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:27,600
Real identity system that 
actually lives on chain. 

879
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:36,800
Right, every herb, it ID is an 
FDA on a theorem and so what 

880
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,500
that implies is that if I, I can
have a lot more protection, that

881
00:51:41,500 --> 00:51:44,300
the front end that's being 
served to me, is not spoofed. 

882
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:48,500
There's no DNS spoofing, there's
no other stuff, right? 

883
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:51,900
Like it's it's something where I
can really get a lot of 

884
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:55,100
verification that I'm using the 
piece of software that I mean to

885
00:51:55,100 --> 00:51:58,200
use. 
They've been huge fax right. 

886
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:02,900
Where somebody's spoofed some 
front-end and there go hundreds 

887
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:07,700
of millions dollars so sir. 
But first of all you know, that 

888
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:10,700
should be the place that should 
be, what serves a client to you.

889
00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:13,800
Write some sort of any user 
interface you're using for 

890
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,900
interacting with change should 
be done through orbit. 

891
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,300
This also lets you do 
multi-party computation, right? 

892
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:26,700
So if you want to do a multi 
sick, then that should be there 

893
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:29,500
should be an actor that this 
would be a nice out to, right? 

894
00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:35,200
You could write it right now and
and then that, you know, then, 

895
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:36,700
okay. 
We want to, you know, the three 

896
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:40,900
of us have a multisig. 
Let's say, and we want to, we 

897
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:44,000
want to move some funds. 
Okay, well we can use the herb 

898
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,800
adapt to do that. 
We don't have to copy and paste 

899
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,100
addresses. 
We don't have to worry about 

900
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:50,700
backups for our keys. 
We're not to worry about backups

901
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:53,600
for the state, right? 
Like if you're tracking, you 

902
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,700
know, the non something theorem 
account, you can use Herbal to 

903
00:52:56,700 --> 00:52:59,700
store that and make sure that. 
And then, you know, that it's 

904
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:01,300
not going to get deleted. 
You're not going to forget it. 

905
00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:04,300
You're not going to have nots 
reuse, errors, that could cause 

906
00:53:04,300 --> 00:53:07,100
security problems, right? 
This whole long tail like things

907
00:53:07,100 --> 00:53:10,000
that can go wrong with crypto or
a lot of the stuff that people 

908
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,200
worry about with crypto, in 
practice, when using is like, 

909
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,300
well, what if I copy and paste 
the wrong address into the wrong

910
00:53:14,300 --> 00:53:15,900
thing? 
And there goes all my life 

911
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:18,800
savings. 
It Happens, right? 

912
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,700
So what you need is some 
abstraction layer there. 

913
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:22,300
So you look, I'm sending it to 
you. 

914
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:24,900
It's just my computer. 
Sending it to your computer and 

915
00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:27,200
yeah, I guess there are like 
public keys and address is 

916
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:28,600
involved, but I don't want to 
think about it. 

917
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,200
I don't see him. 
Right. 

918
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,100
Like I don't, I don't really 
think about that. 

919
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:35,500
Do you accept that? 
I have to think about that with 

920
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:37,300
normal banking. 
It's also a bit of a flaw, 

921
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:44,000
right? 
Like so, So there are those 

922
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,300
layers. 
All right, so you okay, I can do

923
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:48,000
my own stuff. 
I can have my wallet in there. 

924
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,300
I can I can do. 
I can use it for multi-party 

925
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,600
computation. 
And then yeah, I should also use

926
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,000
it for storing all the 
client-side state. 

927
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:58,300
So all off chains, state that I 
need. 

928
00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:03,200
So, if I'm using safe right to 
manage some assets, do other 

929
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,800
things like that, you my actual 
personal data has to be stored, 

930
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,500
somewhere special store that in 
my room. 

931
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,000
Another thing Yoruba can do for 
you is it can act as your 

932
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,900
Watchtower, right? 
So let's say you're doing 

933
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:18,300
something with lightning, right?
Or that's not the only thing 

934
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:20,000
that needs a Watchtower. 
But for some of these things 

935
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,400
where you have a like, a state 
Channel, You actually need some 

936
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,500
program running on your behalf. 
Monitoring the chain to see if 

937
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:28,500
something happens. 
So there's something happens 

938
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:32,600
that's against you. 
This thing can do an adversarial

939
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,800
close of the channel and make 
sure that your funds don't get, 

940
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,800
so, right. 
So you can rely on somebody else

941
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,800
do that or you can use urban 
food, then there are deeper 

942
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,800
Integrations, right? 
So something we're basically You

943
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,900
want to have an application, 
that's mostly off chain. 

944
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:53,600
But has a non chain component, 
right? 

945
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,100
So let's say you have a video 
game and their in-game assets 

946
00:54:56,100 --> 00:54:57,700
that you actually want an 
economy for. 

947
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,200
All right, I need to double spin
protection on those assets. 

948
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,400
So, for that, there's, you can 
do that, just sort of normally 

949
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,500
right, where you can write it or
B app, that's primarily, you 

950
00:55:08,508 --> 00:55:11,000
know, in irbid out but also 
talks to a chain. 

951
00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:13,600
You can do that by talking to 
existing chains and then there's

952
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:23,600
also the Akbar project which is 
aiming to They're building a ZK,

953
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,800
roll up as a layer to on a 
theorem that where you wear that

954
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:33,100
uses knock orbits machine code 
as it's to write smart 

955
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:37,700
contracts. 
So they do ZK proofs of anak KO.

956
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,000
All right. 
So this allows you to write a 

957
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:44,500
your application in herb, its 
programming language. 

958
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,200
And you also write some little 
piece of it that stays on chain 

959
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,300
and those share the same data 
types, they share the same 

960
00:55:49,300 --> 00:55:52,400
helper libraries They 
communicate very seamlessly with

961
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,000
one another. 
So you, there's also a lot less 

962
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,300
code involved in deploying that 
application, right? 

963
00:55:58,300 --> 00:56:01,400
So, one of the big problems with
deploying daps as they're 

964
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,200
currently conceived of is that 
you write a little bit of 

965
00:56:06,207 --> 00:56:10,000
solidity, but most of what you 
write is Javascript because 

966
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,200
there's actually a lot more code
that runs off chain. 

967
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,800
Then runs on Shane. 
And so you have to still deal 

968
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,000
with all this web to stuff all 
the difficulties of deploying 

969
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,600
web to application. 
Along with the difficulty to 

970
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:22,900
deploying web three 
applications. 

971
00:56:22,900 --> 00:56:24,400
Can't Screw Up the solidity 
either, right? 

972
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:30,600
So it's actually just a pretty 
scary thing to try to do so 

973
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,300
herb. 
It doesn't doesn't necessarily 

974
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:35,600
make the smart contract part of 
it that much easier but 

975
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,000
everything else around that. 
It's a lot easier to integrate 

976
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,200
that into an application and 
then there's an even deeper 

977
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,800
layer. 
I would say of integration 

978
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,600
between urban and blockchains 
and this is more speculative, 

979
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,300
more sort of philosophical, but 
basically Lee, I've been 

980
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:56,600
thinking about this lately that 
blockchains have Oracle problem.

981
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,400
Just in general, if any data is 
going to be put onto the chain 

982
00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:05,400
as a transaction input, the data
has to come from somewhere 

983
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,300
often. 
It can't be verified just by 

984
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,100
you, by being on Jane. 
The way that through derived 

985
00:57:12,100 --> 00:57:20,500
data can be Right. 
So a general You know, so it's 

986
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:24,300
like a let's say you want to pay
me for doing some work. 

987
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,800
Well how do you, how do you know
that I actually did the work and

988
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:36,300
so something, somebody has to 
put that data on chain, right? 

989
00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:38,600
And that's an oracle problem 
because when they put that data 

990
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:39,700
on chain, you have to try to 
figure out. 

991
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:42,200
Well, how does that? 
How does how do we know that 

992
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,400
that's true? 
That that's accurate 

993
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,300
information, right? 
So chain link is a whole system 

994
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:46,900
for those. 
Right. 

995
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:49,700
I think there are a bunch of 
others, their chains. 

996
00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:53,700
For Oracle for Price data. 
And so that has particular 

997
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:56,900
characteristics, where you can, 
you know, you can sort of 

998
00:57:56,900 --> 00:57:59,600
average them out and throughout 
the outliers and have some 

999
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,800
economic incentives to get the 
good answer there, right? 

1000
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:05,800
But that only applies for 
certain kinds of data. 

1001
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,300
And for a lot of those sort of a
lot of what people were 

1002
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:13,400
interested in blockchain solving
back in 2017. 2018, that never 

1003
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,500
are, that have not yet panned 
out, I should say, things like 

1004
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,400
using it for, you know, the Love
your house, right? 

1005
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,200
Or like these sort of more 
real-world tokenizing physical 

1006
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,500
assets. 
Some of that's probably just 

1007
00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:30,400
about idea generally but they're
probably my guess is that there 

1008
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,200
are several of those that 
actually are good ideas but 

1009
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,300
they're not feasible yet. 
And what's needed to make them 

1010
00:58:37,300 --> 00:58:43,400
feasible is includes a more 
generic and more like a more 

1011
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:48,600
general purpose, Oracle system. 
And so irbid, I'll tie will 

1012
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,000
actually get to the point here. 
The one of the ways I see her it

1013
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,600
is as a general-purpose Oracle 
system like a low. 

1014
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,300
The lowest layer of an oracle 
system. 

1015
00:58:58,300 --> 00:59:00,700
Where basically, you want to 
put, you want to put some data 

1016
00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:01,600
on chain. 
Okay. 

1017
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,700
Well, it comes on chain signed 
by the ER but that produced it 

1018
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:08,200
and located within turbots scry 
namespace. 

1019
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,400
So this is very technical 
concept but basically herb, it 

1020
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:15,600
has a way of assigning a 
permanent immutable name to a 

1021
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,200
piece of data. 
And attesting to that by signing

1022
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,000
it with using the urban Public 
Service private Key verifiable 

1023
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,600
by anybody. 
And so it's a way of laying out 

1024
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,400
all the data that gets produced 
by any Urban on the network and 

1025
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:31,700
having that herb attest to that 
date. 

1026
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,400
So at the moment, there's no 
double spend protection, or 

1027
00:59:34,408 --> 00:59:36,800
there's no, there's no Byzantine
fall protection of the. 

1028
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,600
So, there's nothing to say that 
I can't run a malicious, turbot 

1029
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,600
kernel. 
That signs two different 

1030
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,200
versions of the same data at the
same path. 

1031
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,900
But and most of it doesn't but 
most of the data that orbit 

1032
00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:50,200
deals with doesn't need that 
protection and so shouldn't have

1033
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,500
it because you actually again, 
you only want blockchains for 

1034
00:59:52,500 --> 00:59:57,200
certain things but You can take 
that data. 

1035
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:02,300
You could write a contract that 
that doesn't Force Byzantine 

1036
01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:04,300
fault Tolerance on those on 
those bindings. 

1037
01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:08,100
And then basically, you could 
use that as a way of just 

1038
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:12,600
ingesting arbitrary data from 
anyone's personal computer and 

1039
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,500
it comes a test of to buy them, 
you know who they are. 

1040
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:18,300
Not even you don't other social 
security number. 

1041
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:22,500
But but you can tie that 
identity to other other actions 

1042
01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:24,600
at that River has taken it. 
Does develop reputation. 

1043
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,200
And so, because it develops 
reputation that's where you can 

1044
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,700
build systems of trust. 
You can build reputation systems

1045
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,900
on chain reputation systems that
deal with this that you could 

1046
01:00:34,900 --> 01:00:38,100
use programmatically to filter 
all this data. 

1047
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,900
So this is a whole line of 
thinking. 

1048
01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:43,800
None of this has been built yet,
it's just sort of something 

1049
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,000
that's been rolling around in my
head, but I think there's 

1050
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,200
something fundamental there, 
right? 

1051
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,900
We're basically blockchains 
ordeal are specific specifically

1052
01:00:51,900 --> 01:00:54,600
for dealing with object of data.
All right. 

1053
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,600
Like, what is objectively? 
The sort of consensus truth 

1054
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,800
about something herb has are 
designed for dealing with 

1055
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,000
subjective data. 
What is my version of this is 

1056
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:10,400
your version of this And so I 
think they use these two things 

1057
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,800
complement each other very well.
And you need both of them to 

1058
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,400
really build a sort of 
cryptographically sound world. 

1059
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,100
But you need a world that has 
hardness as Josh Stark described

1060
01:01:22,100 --> 01:01:25,700
in his essay of atoms 
institutions and blockchains 

1061
01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:30,100
right now block desert as as 
civilization progresses the 

1062
01:01:30,100 --> 01:01:32,200
hardness of our institutions 
increases. 

1063
01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:35,800
Bachchan's. 
Do a great job of hardening. 

1064
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:44,800
Currency contracts potentially 
law but not anything subjective 

1065
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,200
really. 
And so for so Urban is really 

1066
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,600
where you harden the sort of 
subjective reality. 

1067
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,200
I don't know what you think 
about that. 

1068
01:01:55,200 --> 01:02:00,500
But yeah, I want to ask about 
one thing that I've been, you 

1069
01:02:00,500 --> 01:02:04,900
know, pondering a little bit and
I'm kind of like Unsure how it's

1070
01:02:04,900 --> 01:02:09,100
going to play out, right? 
So today, In Viv to obviously 

1071
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:13,000
privacy is pretty bad at error. 
May be terrible, right? 

1072
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,000
And Herb. 
It has this, you know, 

1073
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,900
fundamentally different Paradigm
that, you know. 

1074
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:22,500
It gives you more privacy in 
some ways, right? 

1075
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:24,600
Because like your program runs 
on your herb. 

1076
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:30,800
It and you data is there but at 
the same time because everything

1077
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,600
you do on the network is like 
associated with your planet ID. 

1078
01:02:37,900 --> 01:02:40,200
It all. 
They also seems to be the kind 

1079
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:47,400
of this aspect where maybe 
there's less privacy to or like,

1080
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,800
you know, at least in the 
current system, you know, you 

1081
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,700
can make like different 
usernames, use different emails,

1082
01:02:53,700 --> 01:02:58,600
make different accounts. 
And so I'm curious like how you 

1083
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:03,000
think this is going to play out.
I would say there's more 

1084
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,200
accountability and that does cut
both ways because yeah, if you 

1085
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,400
get because so basically in 
urban you have this ID and it's 

1086
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,200
typically a very permanent ID, 
like people get really attached 

1087
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,300
to them, I'm very attached to 
Robin's brick for Gary. 

1088
01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:20,200
If somebody took teller told us 
away from you, I imagine he 

1089
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,500
would not be very happy with 
this. 

1090
01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:24,600
You get attached to it. 
The way you get attached to your

1091
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,900
normal human name. 
It's a little odd. 

1092
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,100
Honestly, it's like it. 
That's part of the system works 

1093
01:03:30,100 --> 01:03:34,500
a lot better than I would expect
it to but there's quite a bit of

1094
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:36,500
empirical evidence for this 
people getting very attached to 

1095
01:03:36,508 --> 01:03:38,600
their name so you can test your 
name because they were that's 

1096
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:40,200
really who you are on the 
network. 

1097
01:03:40,300 --> 01:03:43,800
It's how people know you. 
And I think that will only 

1098
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,500
increase as people start doing 
things like Financial 

1099
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:50,600
transactions through or other 
sort of more serious, more 

1100
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,600
serious uses. 
And so yeah, there is a 

1101
01:03:54,607 --> 01:03:58,600
trade-off there somewhere, 
abstractly right between you 

1102
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,200
know, can you Accountable for 
your actions. 

1103
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,600
On the one hand, which also 
means you have a reputation. 

1104
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,900
So developing the development of
Social Capital requires 

1105
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,100
attribute ability of actions, 
right? 

1106
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:12,800
Like you have to know that it 
was me in order for developed in

1107
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,200
order to for me to develop that 
app, that reputation. 

1108
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,800
But then conversely you know, if
I do something wrong then you 

1109
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,100
know, my then everyone will spit
and ever, they hear my name for 

1110
01:04:23,100 --> 01:04:27,200
generations to come the sins of 
the father shall be Revisited 

1111
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:28,800
upon the child or whatever, 
right? 

1112
01:04:29,500 --> 01:04:31,600
Interestingly, I think 
blockchains have a Very similar 

1113
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:33,300
problem, right? 
We're like the provenance of 

1114
01:04:33,300 --> 01:04:35,100
Turin, provenance of 
transactions, actually 

1115
01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:37,500
completely visible. 
I'm John a chain the way. 

1116
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:41,100
It's maybe not with in a more 
traditional banking system and 

1117
01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:43,100
so a nerve, it actually takes 
the same approach. 

1118
01:04:43,100 --> 01:04:45,700
The blockchain is do which is 
you have a layer of 

1119
01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:49,900
pseudonymity, right? 
So any particular Urban idea, 

1120
01:04:49,900 --> 01:04:52,700
yeah, that took that accrues 
reputation, but that idea is not

1121
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:56,000
tied back to your real world 
identity unless you want it to 

1122
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:00,200
be. 
Yeah, I should mention that that

1123
01:05:00,700 --> 01:05:02,900
anonymity is possible. 
Honorable people will know 

1124
01:05:02,900 --> 01:05:06,500
you're anonymous and in most 
contexts you may want to be 

1125
01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:08,400
unaccountable and a given 
situation. 

1126
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,200
But the other people in that 
situation probably what 

1127
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,700
everybody else around them to be
accountable and he would 

1128
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:15,800
probably like everybody else to 
be accountable to. 

1129
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,700
So while an annuity is possible,
actually makes it more difficult

1130
01:05:19,700 --> 01:05:23,700
to socialize in many ways. 
So I think I think just like in 

1131
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:28,300
web to honor between will see 
some anonymous Social happenings

1132
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,100
but the majority of interaction 
will be accountable with this 

1133
01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:34,800
kind of skin in the game based 
system. 

1134
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,200
Yeah, so specifically, there's a
type of urban idea that's called

1135
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,200
a comet. 
You don't have to buy it, you 

1136
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,800
can create an infinite number of
them effectively and yeah, you 

1137
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:47,600
can throw them away their 
ephemeral and so, they're in 

1138
01:05:47,700 --> 01:05:51,200
there Anonymous IDs. 
And interestingly, yeah, we find

1139
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,200
that most substantial groups ban
them, because they tend to be 

1140
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:00,300
Trolls but there are places 
where they're not banded because

1141
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:02,300
people really want to have 
Anonymous conversations. 

1142
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:05,100
So it's different use case, 
different use cases, imply 

1143
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:08,500
different things, and so you Can
you can do both with her? 

1144
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:13,600
So I guess there's there's herb 
it.org developers, dr. 

1145
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,800
B dot org is the best place for 
engineers. 

1146
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,200
Who want to learn more. 
If you want to get started using

1147
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:24,000
orbit as a user, there's getting
started Link at AB dot org as 

1148
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,000
well. 
So that's all very polished and 

1149
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:31,200
and user-friendly nowadays. 
Yeah, we're still working on it 

1150
01:06:31,207 --> 01:06:32,100
too. 
Is getting better. 

1151
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:37,300
Yeah, I mean I'm just very 
excited mean today and also just

1152
01:06:37,300 --> 01:06:39,700
for like you know, what is it 
look like today, right? 

1153
01:06:39,700 --> 01:06:43,700
I mean there are some of these 
applications but I think right 

1154
01:06:43,700 --> 01:06:46,000
now what really works is just 
this group's, right? 

1155
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,600
So you have some community and 
you can message each other in 

1156
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,900
chat and it's like, it's pretty 
nice. 

1157
01:06:52,500 --> 01:06:56,100
And I think that's already 
something that, you know, at 

1158
01:06:56,100 --> 01:07:01,500
least for a lot of people it's 
enough to To kind of trigger a 

1159
01:07:01,508 --> 01:07:04,400
lot of thinking and a lot of 
seeing of possibilities. 

1160
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,600
But I think what I'm super 
excited about is you know, the 

1161
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,400
point where we really have 
compelling applications, you 

1162
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,500
know they're like actually cool 
and I think we're pretty close. 

1163
01:07:14,500 --> 01:07:16,300
I don't think we're there yet, 
right? 

1164
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,100
I mean, at least personally, I 
haven't used anything where it's

1165
01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:23,800
like, you know, this is really 
cool Beyond just illustrating 

1166
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,800
some possibility of what could 
be in the future but I, you 

1167
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,600
know, I would guess that this is
Is something that will get to if

1168
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:38,300
in the next six to 12 months. 
And I think at that point, it's 

1169
01:07:38,300 --> 01:07:39,600
just going to be very exciting, 
right? 

1170
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,300
Especially have people from 
crypto like come over and 

1171
01:07:43,300 --> 01:07:45,500
Explorer bit. 
And I think there's going to be 

1172
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:50,000
an avalanche of innovation and 
adoption. 

1173
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,000
That's going to happen after 
that, I agree. 

1174
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,600
Yeah, I would say if you're if 
you want to play with her but 

1175
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,100
it's fun to play with and 
there's some interesting groups,

1176
01:07:59,100 --> 01:08:00,900
you know. 
Through actually quite a few 

1177
01:08:00,900 --> 01:08:04,400
different social groups on our 
about that are very different 

1178
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,000
from one another. 
So the the idea that we're going

1179
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,900
to Foster the development so 
subcultures has been empirically

1180
01:08:09,900 --> 01:08:15,100
true so far. 
And but then I think the thing 

1181
01:08:15,100 --> 01:08:17,000
that's really exciting about 
herb it right now is if you're a

1182
01:08:17,008 --> 01:08:21,000
developer because this is a 
really good time to get involved

1183
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,800
and play with it, right? 
Build something, take a weekend,

1184
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:26,800
maybe it takes a week. 
If you got to learn the 

1185
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,600
programming language first, 
maybe it takes a little longer. 

1186
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,899
But it's not that bad and then 
learn your way around the 

1187
01:08:34,907 --> 01:08:39,000
system, build an app and you can
build and publish it and it's 

1188
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,200
really easy and then and then 
talk to people about it and you 

1189
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:44,800
might get some nice positive 
feedback and make it actually 

1190
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,200
users very quickly. 
And there are all kinds of apps 

1191
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,100
that should be written for a 
crypto integration. 

1192
01:08:51,100 --> 01:08:53,800
So, if you're coming from crypto
especially and that 

1193
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:58,100
strategically, it strategically 
interesting for us, a tour of it

1194
01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:01,899
and you may be able to To get a 
grant from The herbal Foundation

1195
01:09:01,899 --> 01:09:05,500
to work on, something like that.
We have a grant program you 

1196
01:09:05,500 --> 01:09:09,399
should check out bounties. 
So there are a lot of different 

1197
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:13,100
ways of getting involved and 
also you can get on the network 

1198
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:15,700
and talk to people about what 
they know, what they want to 

1199
01:09:15,707 --> 01:09:17,200
build work with some other 
people. 

1200
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:19,899
So, yeah, I think this is it's a
really fun time to get involved 

1201
01:09:19,899 --> 01:09:24,300
with her bit because it's at the
point where the app development 

1202
01:09:24,300 --> 01:09:28,000
and app distribution is somewhat
mature, it's a mature enough 

1203
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:33,000
that it's not a huge pain. 
And then also, but despite that 

1204
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,700
it's still very young and so 
there's still a lot of 

1205
01:09:35,700 --> 01:09:37,500
low-hanging fruit that needs to 
be written. 

1206
01:09:37,899 --> 01:09:39,899
That's not too not too hard to 
do. 

1207
01:09:41,700 --> 01:09:43,500
Cool. 
Well thanks so much Ted and 

1208
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:45,600
thanks so much. 
Gary was really pleasure to have

1209
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,800
you guys on and there was a 
pleasure. 

1210
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:52,300
I think this is a nice, a nice 
other introduction about her 

1211
01:09:52,300 --> 01:09:55,500
weight because I think often you
need quite a few introductions 

1212
01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:58,100
of whether it's a completely, 
sure, people will enjoy this. 

1213
01:09:58,100 --> 01:10:00,700
And I'm also sure this is not 
going to be the last time we're 

1214
01:10:00,708 --> 01:10:03,500
going to talk about her weight, 
but there's going to be a lot 

1215
01:10:03,500 --> 01:10:06,100
more to come. 
And I think the next year the 

1216
01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:08,500
next two years and what's ahead 
is going to be incredibly 

1217
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:10,800
exciting. 
So I'm, you know, I can't wait 

1218
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,200
to see. 
See how it all unfolds and yeah.

1219
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,800
Also so grateful for you, Ted 
like for doing all this work in 

1220
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,000
trying to get this platform to 
maturity. 

1221
01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:23,300
Thank you. 
Really enjoyed this. 

1222
01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:26,900
All right, and thanks to our 
listeners for tuning in. 

1223
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:30,700
Let us know how you like to show
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1224
01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:32,600
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And then we look forward to 

1225
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:37,000
being back next week. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1226
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,400
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1227
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:41,400
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1228
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,200
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1229
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:47,600
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1230
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,400
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1231
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:54,100
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1232
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:56,200
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1233
01:10:56,700 --> 01:10:59,000
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1234
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,500
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1235
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,600
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1236
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,400
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1237
01:11:07,407 --> 01:11:09,500
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1238
01:11:09,700 --> 01:11:12,900
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1239
01:11:12,900 --> 01:11:14,300
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