1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,920 Really it's only now I would say that we've had proper scalable 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:10,120 infrastructure like ready to take stable coins to the masses. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,720 Noble is neutral purpose built infrastructure for the 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,640 transmission and proliferation of these stable coins. 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,080 I do believe and can anticipate that the launch of the app 6 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:25,480 layer, it will be like a new era for for Noble because again, 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,960 we've never actually had defy on Noble itself, which is kind of 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,240 crazy. And yet there's all of this 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,800 traction. Is Cosmos finally dead, Yelena? 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,280 But I guess that's the question I want to ask you. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:43,480 Like, do you think this episode has brought you by Gnosis? 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,000 Building the open Internet one block at a time. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,080 Nosis was founded in 2015 and it's grown from 1 of Ethereum's 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,480 earliest projects into a powerful ecosystem for open user 15 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:56,360 owned finance. Nosis is also the team behind 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,000 products that had become core to my business and that are so many 17 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,160 others like Safe and Cow Swap. At the center is Nosis Chain. 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,040 It's a low fee layer one with 0 downtime in seven years and 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,040 secured by over 300,000 validators. 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,120 It's the foundation for real world financial applications 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,280 like Nosis Pay and Circles. All of this is governed by Nosis 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,240 Dow, a community run organization where anyone with a 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,720 GNO token can vote on updates, fund new projects, and even run 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,640 a validator from home. So if you're building in Web 3 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,240 or you're just curious about what financial freedom can look 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,160 like, start exploring at Nosis dot IO. 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,480 Welcome to the epicenter of the show, which talks about the 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,160 technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,160 and the blockchain revolution. I'm so I think with you and I'm 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,320 here with Yelena Jurek, who is the CEO at Noble. 31 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:49,680 Noble is a Cosmos chain that's purpose built for native 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,720 issuance of stable coins and RW as they are one of the key 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,360 players in the USDC ecosystem. I believe they're probably 5th 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,240 or 6th in issuance. Now you'll correct me on Yelena, 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,240 but if, if I think I'd check USDC dot cool. 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,320 And you guys are sitting at somewhere around $350 million if 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,680 USDC issued on Noble. You also have your own USD 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,440 stablecoin USD and which we'll talk about. 39 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:15,360 But yeah, how, how you doing? How's how's everything going for 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,920 you? Yeah, No, thanks so much for 41 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:20,320 having me on Seb. It's been great. 42 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,360 Obviously it's stablecoin summer that is going into the fall. 43 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,960 I guess now that it's October 1st, it's been great. 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,640 There's a lot of things going on, obviously the stablecoin 45 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:33,000 space and I'm excited to talk about that and also some 46 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,400 exciting updates on the Noble front. 47 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,720 So thanks for having. Me so like stablecoin you, you 48 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,160 mentioned stablecoin summer and and actually I think you're it's 49 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,640 a very apartment way to talk about it because the stable mark 50 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,360 the stablecoin market is now surpassed 250 billion. 51 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,440 It's up, I think something like 45% this year alone. 52 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,200 There's much clearer USUS rules now. 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,960 We have lots of announcements. Also, if you hear Paxos just 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,920 announced their privacy focus stablecoin. 55 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,520 I also read that Circle is going to enable things like reversible 56 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,840 transactions. Obviously we have like plasma 57 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,520 that's just launched their neobank. 58 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,960 It seems like everyone is trying to get a, a piece of the stable 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,160 pie coin coin pie. And you know, a little, a little 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,400 bit reminds me of other hype cycles we have in the space like 61 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,680 NFTS and and defy summer and meme coins. 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,080 And you know, if we look at those, a lot of that innovation 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,640 and certainly the valuations have dropped off a lot. 64 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,760 Why is stable coins different? Why? 65 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Why should we treat stable coins differently? 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,480 Should we treat stable coins differently? 67 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,200 Will we still be at this level of hype and excitement in a year 68 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,760 from now? Yeah, it's a, it's a really good 69 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,040 question. So I think it's important to 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,680 distinguish to your question like what is different about 71 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,400 about this, about this time around. 72 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,240 I think inevitably, you know, there will be overhyped projects 73 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,400 that maybe don't sustain themselves and don't last into 74 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,040 functioning products and businesses. 75 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,560 But Despite that potentiality, there is something concrete kind 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,240 of happening now, which is maybe different than previous hype 77 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,040 cycles that we've had in crypto. You know, to your point, whether 78 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,840 that's NFTS or mean coins or the like. 79 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,120 And that reason is, is pretty simple. 80 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,680 That's legislation, right? So we had obviously the passing 81 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,640 of genius a couple of months ago where it was signed into law by 82 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,880 President Trump. We've had a very concerted 83 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:43,400 effort by multiple interest groups, right, that actually 84 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,240 want to see Genius operational and in full force. 85 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,000 One part of that interest group, of course is the crypto lobby, 86 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,280 but it's also actually bigger than that, right? 87 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,600 Basically what Genius is simply a revolution in payments, right? 88 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,400 And so if you think about like the payments industry and you 89 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,560 think about kind of what payments are and how payments 90 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,480 kind of work today, it's pretty antiquated, right? 91 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,200 And a lot of this payments infrastructure is running on 92 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,040 legacy infrastructure that is pretty old, antiquated. 93 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,360 And So what is genius? Genius basically set the 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:27,320 standard, a legal framework to issue stable coins as payment 95 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,040 instruments, right? And obviously, you know, for 96 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,400 crypto native people such as ourselves, we've been very 97 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,920 familiar with stablecoins for quite some time. 98 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,320 You know, some of us maybe you know, do payroll in stablecoins, 99 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,240 get paid in stablecoins ourselves as employees myself, 100 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:43,960 I've paid rent in stablecoins in the past. 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,400 You know, we're very familiar with these products, not to 102 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,760 mention the trading defy use cases. 103 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,560 But if you think about what Genius is and the framework it 104 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,960 establishes kind of on more mainstream legacy level, it 105 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:04,520 actually allows first of all, like legacy payments businesses 106 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,840 to like legally, let's say, innovate and, you know, offer 107 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:13,720 really interesting, you know, kind of innovative products that 108 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,080 maybe are cheaper, more seamless excetera. 109 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,400 But then it also allows crypto projects like Noble to kind of 110 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,160 play a role within that. So yeah, as you said, right now 111 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,200 it's about a $275 billion market. 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,400 Citibank just, you know, they had a report that said that by 113 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,200 20-30 will be at 1.6 trillion. They then actually upped that 114 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,840 prediction to 1.9 trillion by by 20-30. 115 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,400 And I'm like, let's remember, like five years ago or 5 1/2 116 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,040 years ago, we were at half a billion. 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,120 So yeah, I mean, today, you know, today in the last year, 118 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,320 we're up 50%. But basically, we have a much, 119 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,200 much longer way to go. And that is in a large part due 120 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,040 to genius and the appetite from the legacy mainstream world to 121 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,720 basically bring payment into the 21st century. 122 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:06,400 Yeah. I think one of the key insights 123 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,720 in what you just said is that it enables or what I take away from 124 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,840 it is that it enables a new form of infrastructure for payment, 125 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,480 for payment issuance issuers, for payment systems issuers. 126 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,280 And in many ways that's I think what we've kind of wanted block 127 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,520 chains to be. You know, there's this idea that 128 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,560 sort of been circulating for a long time now. 129 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,840 It's like that we want block chains and D5 to be the rails of 130 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:38,320 the financial system. And I, I feel like stable coins 131 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,560 may be the catalyst that actually makes that finally the 132 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,880 case, right? It sort of makes it possible. 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,360 And so like this, this sort of institutional sentiment has 134 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,200 really flipped. I think Coindesk had this figure 135 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,480 that 83% of investors are now planning more crypto exposure. 136 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,640 Stable coins, I think are a big part of that because there's 137 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,760 yield, you know, a lot of stable coins are sort of promising 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,480 yield. How do you look at that? 139 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,840 And you know, how should, how should investors, institutional 140 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,920 or even retail? So it would be assessing the 141 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,720 different yield sources, right? Because 4.5% over here, 10% over 142 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,200 here may, may not be, you know, not all yield is created equal. 143 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,360 And I think people need to be more familiar and sort of aware 144 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,200 of that. How do you look at that? 145 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,600 Yeah. Well, well, OK, so I mean, first 146 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,080 of all, like, let me just back it up for a second. 147 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,840 So basically, you know, to your point, obviously like the 148 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,039 promise of blockchain rails was of course, you know, a lot of 149 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,600 the kind of use cases and kind of ideals was around payments. 150 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,560 It was, you know, peer-to-peer payment systems. 151 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,080 Obviously this idea of financial disintermediation, even in the 152 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,600 original Bitcoin white paper, you had this vision for Bitcoin 153 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,040 as a payments mechanism. Of course, that is now not the 154 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,920 case. Bitcoin is not used as you know 155 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,800 most often and in the majority of cases is not used as a 156 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,400 payment instrument. It's it's obviously a 157 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,320 speculative asset that is traded and you know at this point quite 158 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,320 commoditized. So on the one hand, like it did 159 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,120 take us actually quite some time to get to this point where we 160 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,120 actually do have the infrastructure and we actually 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,240 have stable points again, as a product that are instruments 162 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,480 that will not only have, you know, very sound legislation 163 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,480 kind of governing their, their utility, but we also have the 164 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,600 infrastructure and the actual, again, blockchain rails kind of 165 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,800 ready and able to transmit and proliferate these stable coins 166 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,560 across, you know, a wide variety of use cases and distribution 167 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:46,880 channels. And so I will just emphasize, 168 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,080 like before we talk about like yield and stable coins that 169 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,720 really it's only now I would say that we've had again, like 170 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,920 proper scalable infrastructure, like ready to take stable coins 171 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:03,520 to the masses. And I would also like kind of 172 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,720 love to talk about why that is and how far we've come. 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,360 And again, like what is this infrastructure that we're 174 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,520 talking about that is suited for us bringing stablecoins to 175 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,400 mainstream? But yeah, to your question 176 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,320 around yield, I mean, it's interesting, right? 177 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,720 So first of all, when we talk about like yield as released to 178 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,440 stablecoins, we're typically talking about yield that is 179 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,240 generated from short term treasury bills. 180 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:31,160 Obviously that is the mechanism that I would call classic 181 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,800 traditional staple coins are collateralized by. 182 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,400 And so obviously with ingenious, there is very clear distinctions 183 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,880 around how that yield is passed on. 184 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:47,440 So kind of out-of-the-box, it's actually not compliant to pass 185 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,040 on that yield sort of passively, right. 186 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,480 So you have to basically have a mechanism where that yield is 187 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,800 claimed or where distribution kind of and partners or entities 188 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,960 like a coin base can actually take that USDC and pass on the 189 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,080 yield by having, you know, people, you know, hold that USTC 190 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,960 on the Coinbase platform. So there is a bit a bit of 191 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,840 nuance and like legally how stable coins, you know, are, you 192 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,360 know, able to pass on yield. And another big part of this 193 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,800 question, of course, is the clarity Act. 194 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,320 And basically that is more governing like Iran D5 and just 195 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,840 generally kind of, you know, crypto tokens are perhaps are 196 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,320 more speculative, but that will also kind of have some 197 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,920 guidelines on again, like passing of yield and how that's 198 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:37,400 some kind of compliant and basically for for for noble. 199 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,960 And this is like one of the principles that we have held 200 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:46,080 very dear to our heart since the beginning is Noble is neutral 201 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,120 purpose built infrastructure for the transmission and 202 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,040 proliferation of the stabacoins. So Noble itself is a protocol, 203 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,600 OK? Noble itself is a layer one. 204 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,480 We of course are not ourselves a Stabacoin issuer. 205 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,360 You kind of mentioned in the intro that we have Noble dollar. 206 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,200 We're of course working with N 0 on that product. 207 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:14,240 N 0 is a stable coin issuance protocol which works with a 208 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,840 network of off chain mentors and issuers. 209 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,280 Recently, Stripe or Bridge was announced as one of their 210 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,720 partners. But basically, Noble is distinct 211 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,200 from the circles or the stripes of the world in the sense that 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,720 we are crypto infrastructure again, for the transmission of 213 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,360 these stable coins, right? So we like to work with wide 214 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,400 variety, diverse set of issuers. And so, yeah, to your question 215 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,840 around, I guess, like yield and like how this will kind of play 216 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,320 out, I would say it's like the issuers themselves are kind of 217 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:45,800 at the forefront of these discussions. 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,600 Like again, when it comes to Noble, we are crypto native. 219 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,960 Obviously, D5 will continue to exist, but as an issuer, that 220 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,760 kind of consideration or and how you pass on the yield, if at all 221 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,920 to end users is basically within their purview, right? 222 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,600 So basically you're going to have a situation where obviously 223 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,280 you know, like what currently exists, which will probably what 224 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,520 be the reality kind of after Genius is operationalized. 225 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,560 But you'll have a situation where the issuer themselves, 226 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,560 like a circle can't by default pass on that yield. 227 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,480 But the distribution partner, like a Coinbase, like an Ave. 228 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,560 like a finance, really any entity, whether it's an exchange 229 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:33,680 or even a defy protocol, can of course, you know, pass on yield 230 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,600 in in in ways that is like safe and, you know, makes sense. 231 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,720 So anyways, we can, we can chat a little bit more about that 232 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,040 and, and how kind of noble thinks about it with composable 233 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,400 yield as it was to noble dollar. But basically the rules are just 234 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,800 like now being established and there's no one path yet because 235 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,440 the rules of the road have yet to be written by the OCC in the 236 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,960 US as it relates to things like passing on yield. 237 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,680 Well, I'm, I'm glad you brought up composable yield because I 238 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,280 think it's a, it's a perfect segue into the next question I 239 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,720 wanted to ask you, which is currently I think most of the 240 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,560 yield that these, you know, this kind of floor that we see around 241 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:16,120 like 444 or 5% your comes from treasuries. 242 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,320 You mentioned short term and long term treasuries and, and 243 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,240 having some of the mix there stable coins, You know, recently 244 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,800 we had cap on, we also had FX protocol and of course, like 245 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,400 these are, these are stable coin issuers, like different from, 246 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,640 from, from Noble, but they're generating yield in different 247 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,800 ways. Like FX has a stability pool 248 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,600 that generates yield basically from, you know, sort of deposits 249 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,640 in its per protocol. You know, I, I feel like 250 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,680 probably, you know, we, we can, we can keep juicing these yields 251 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640 for some time, but they'll probably dry up like the native 252 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,040 Defy yields will start drying up unless new sources of yield 253 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,560 start coming on chain, actual cash flows from off chain 254 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,760 businesses. So, yeah, how do you think about 255 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,960 sort of like the bringing more yield on chain and how are you 256 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,520 guys integrating that into this so your yield strategy and 257 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,840 composable yield moving forward? Yeah. 258 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,240 I mean composable yield is actually quite simple and we 259 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,920 don't like to complicate things As it relates to noble dollar 260 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,000 itself, like the core product obviously there's like, you 261 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,040 know, kind of funky things that could be built on top of that. 262 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,440 But as it relates to noble dollar itself, composable yield 263 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,480 basically is as follows. So you have USDN which is 264 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,320 actually over collateralized 103% by by short term treasury 265 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,040 bills. Of course that collateral pool 266 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:43,680 is again managed and governed by the M0 protocol, but our 267 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,040 implementation of USDN takes that yield component and 268 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,480 basically makes it programmable and programmatic at the same 269 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,360 time. So we tell distribution partners 270 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,600 or we you know encourage distribution partners like like 271 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,800 a, like a, like a DEX, a payments app really can be off 272 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,240 chain distribution. On chain distribution, we really 273 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,920 don't distinguish. We basically say take that yield 274 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,000 accumulation that is kind of happening in real time or per 275 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:21,080 block basis and you can program it and direct it to any source 276 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,040 or any destination that kind of fits your use case. 277 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,840 So you can obviously take that yield revenue and you can 278 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440 distribute it to validators. You can do a buy and burn of 279 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,280 your token, you can keep it as revenue. 280 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:37,400 And basically Noble's thesis again is on chain distribution, 281 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,360 it's making sure that the Noble protocol can service app 282 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,720 builders and make sure that there is proper incentives and 283 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,320 like safety and like liability around that distribution of the 284 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,680 underlying T bill yield. And we've had some pretty, 285 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,480 pretty good success. So a few months ago, we ran a 286 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,800 points campaign where we wanted to kind of demonstrate like this 287 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,480 utility of composable yield, right? 288 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,880 And so we basically said, OK, so people can participate in this 289 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,040 points campaign, they can get, you know, points, Noble points 290 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,760 by deposit, causing their noble dollar into the into a points 291 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,599 vault. But by doing so, you actually 292 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,440 forfeit or give up the T bill yield that you would otherwise 293 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,319 get by holding noble dollar. And what happened to that T bill 294 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,359 yield that actually got distributed to a second vault, 295 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,080 which was a boosted yield vault. And basically we sold people. 296 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,280 You can also just, you know, deposit your USDN into this 297 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,400 boosted yield vault where you don't get points, but you get 298 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,760 all of the yield that the people in the points vault gave up. 299 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,680 And that was generating about 15 to 20% yield. 300 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,720 And that ran for about four or five months. 301 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,720 And basically, you know why we did that. 302 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,320 And like a lot of people were kind of asking, well, how you 303 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,240 know, how is that 50% yield generated? 304 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,160 Like is there something like happening on the back end like 305 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,440 like like through like lending or something funky in that way? 306 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,680 And the answer was no. Like it's literally 307 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,800 fundamentally treasury bill yield that just got 308 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,360 redistributed in a way that was quite simple if you think about 309 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,480 it, where it was basically all the people that gave it up, it 310 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,840 just got redirected to this other group of of holders. 311 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,840 And the reason we were able to do 15, you know, to 20% 312 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,720 consistently was because obviously overwhelmingly the 313 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,280 distribution or the ratio of deposits was within the points 314 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,640 vault. And so basically, you know, on 315 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,840 the one hand, we want to show, you know, noble dollar, look, 316 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,120 it's like a thing that exists. It's very powerful. 317 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,480 And of course, the composable yield is this like kind of 318 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,840 interesting new mechanism where you can start implementing it 319 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,960 in, you know, a wide variety of ways and you could gamify it, 320 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,360 you could create incentives around that. 321 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,920 And again, it's all possible because the token itself has 322 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,200 been designed and engineered to allow for the composability of 323 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,840 that yield component. Makes sense? 324 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,680 And so the USDN campaign, how successful was it? 325 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,960 Yeah, it was quite. Successful, we reached about 125 326 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,120 million at an all time high all organic demand across 30,000 327 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,720 unique wallets. And so, you know, it was very, 328 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,240 very great to see that kind of organic, you know, demand kind 329 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,200 of popping up. And yeah, I want to talk. 330 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,960 About Cosmos a little bit, I mean, so noble is a is a Cosmos 331 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,720 app chain and you know, launched at a time, I think when Cosmos 332 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,960 was struggling from the downfall of of UST, you know, quite quite 333 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,760 some time afterwards. But I think like, you know, I 334 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,760 think UST and, and the collapse of, of Lumina, I think had 335 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,360 pretty significant impact on the Cosmos ecosystem overall. 336 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:58,560 You know, feel like it's some of the all time highs there. 337 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,400 And like the, the FT VS of most of the chains that were around 338 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,360 in 2020-2021, 2022, you know, a lot of liquidity got, you know, 339 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840 removed out of the ecosystem in, in one, one moment. 340 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,840 I, I think when, when noble came online, a lot of people were 341 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,440 expecting lots of USD liquidity to come into Cosmos. 342 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,240 And some has, right, I mean, 350 million or, or some change, 343 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,280 right? Is is nothing to sneeze at DYDX 344 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,680 also coming to the ecosystem? At the same time, I think was 345 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,840 very much anticipated and, and people saw that as a positive 346 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,800 sign. And I, I think, I think the 347 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,040 option thesis generally. And so the sovereign option 348 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,560 thesis continues to stand up and, and, and people all across 349 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,240 the ecosystem, across crypto, I think still believe that's the 350 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,960 case. But the Cosmos ecosystem as as 351 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,560 the D Phi ecosystem has not really done very well in the 352 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,760 last, you know, two 2-3 years despite all of this, right? 353 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,960 Despite Noble coming there, despite having native USTC and 354 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,360 despite, you know, lots of chains of using Cosmos tech. 355 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,440 What's happening? What do you think? 356 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,320 Why do you think that is? Is Cosmos finally dead, Yellena? 357 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,760 But I guess that's the question I want to ask you. 358 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,200 It's like, do you think? No, it's. 359 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,480 Not dead. Yeah. 360 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:15,920 I mean, I think it's kind of a misnomer of a question because 361 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,640 basically if you look at where Cosmos is, it's fundamentally 362 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,280 the stack, right? It's Tenderman, it's Comma BFT, 363 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,040 it's the SDK, it's Cosmosom, it's IBC. 364 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,600 And if you look at all metrics across those like levels of the 365 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,680 stack, it's actually quite strong. 366 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,800 What's not strong to your point is Cosmos native token 367 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,280 performances. So if you like look at a chart 368 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,960 or coin market cap and you kind of look at, you know, a token 369 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,480 that is like an IBC token that like launches like unfortunately 370 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,960 there isn't as much, you know, retail kind of demand for those 371 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,200 tokens. It's, it's, you know, partially 372 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,960 why Noble of course is launching this L2 on EBM, which is the 373 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,280 Noble app layer and why the Noble token will be an Ethereum 374 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,560 token, not a Cosmos token. But basically as it relates to 375 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,200 like the stack itself and it relates to adoption. 376 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,880 I mean, again, by all accounts, it is the most performing stack 377 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,640 to build an app chain, right? And whether you use IBC or not, 378 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,760 I think also kind of dictates whether you're kind of 379 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,840 considered to be like Cosmos. So like Noble, for example, 380 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,720 right? We of course are have IBC 381 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,000 out-of-the-box. We, you know, a lot of like 382 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,400 volume, of course, liquidity routing is, is, is via IBC. 383 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,760 But we also have CCTP circles bridge. 384 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,080 We also have wormhole. We also have hyperlane support, 385 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,400 you know, probably will have other bridges supported by, you 386 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,480 know, Chernobyl. And so, you know, I think that a 387 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,640 lot of the times, you know, when you kind of look at what 388 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,040 happened with Tara, like, you know, how much of Tara's success 389 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,560 was because they were Cosmos or because they had a great 390 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,120 product. I would argue they had a great 391 00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:58,600 product for its time. Obviously that was not 392 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,920 sustainable. Obviously, UST was fundamentally 393 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,680 unsound, but you know, Anchor and what they, you know, did 394 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,120 with the Terra protocol was obviously, you know, very 395 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,280 valuable in some level. And that's why you had UST at a 396 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,720 $40 billion market cap. And, you know, you had, you 397 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,720 know, all of this like, like, you know, liquidity mining of 398 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,200 UST and you had these like crazy, like AP wise. 399 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,720 And anyways, you also have like a lot of like really great defy 400 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,840 on on Terra. And so basically, yeah, Terra 401 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,920 was Cosmos and it was Cosmos because it's the best way to 402 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,360 build an app chain. But they also have just had like 403 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:38,160 a good product story and good use, like a like a really, you 404 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,880 know, bullish community. And so I think again, like, it's 405 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,000 not to say that that can't happen again, right? 406 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,040 Like it's all about the product. It's all about the, you know, 407 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,080 like what you're actually building, who's a four, is it 408 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,000 useful? Does it work? 409 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,040 Is it broken? Is is there a good UX? 410 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,280 All of these things. And so I think when you look at 411 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,080 like what's happened since UST collapsed, obviously there was a 412 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,200 really serious bear market. You know, you had FTX, you had 413 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,560 Celsius bankruptcy, you had things happen. 414 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,880 And then what happened after that was somewhat of a bubble 415 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,520 market that was started basically within the salon and 416 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,080 ecosystem. Why product? 417 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,280 What was the product correct meme coins. 418 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,160 And so again, like Cosmos showed you could build really 419 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,240 performant app chain infrastructure for D5, for 420 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,600 stable coins, for trading, for like all sorts of things. 421 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:43,120 Solana showed that you could get incredible mindshare and retail 422 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,720 adoption of meme coins. And of course there is like some 423 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,840 performance reason for that because of the way that Solana 424 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,560 works. But basically it's to say that 425 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:01,920 if you look at any major L1L2 ecosystem, typically it's like 426 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,880 power law distribution of like where the activity and liquidity 427 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,480 is and it's usually concentrated among a handful of products and 428 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,760 applications. So like even salon it right, 429 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,040 like yes, pumped off on like kind of kicked off, you know, 430 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,880 the trend you had bonk you had obviously, you know, then 431 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,320 there's like things like Jido, but like overwhelmingly a lot of 432 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,000 that activity and liquidity in mindshare was around pumped off 433 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,440 on. And then and you know, you look 434 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,080 at, you know, things like, you know, hyper liquid 435 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,640 overwhelmingly now that's kind of maintaining a lot of 436 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,120 mindshare. And so basically, you know, I 437 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:45,280 would say that on the one hand, Cosmos of course, can never be 438 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,320 done because you have the stack which will continue to be like 439 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,200 the best stack. Like I mean, even talk about 440 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,680 like stablecoin chains, like Circle, of course, is building 441 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,400 their stablecoin layer one pulled arc and that uses comet 442 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,680 BFT for consensus. You know, you have obviously 443 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Noble, which of course leverages some parts of the Cosmos stack 444 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,160 and of course has this like separate execution layer around 445 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,640 the EVM. But yeah, I think there's 446 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,360 definitely no logical way you could see that Cosmos is dead. 447 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,200 Yeah. That that that's, that's really 448 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,000 great. I think it it kind of aligns 449 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,080 with how I've seen and talked about Cosmos over the years and 450 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,960 and that the analogy I often use is none of the none of the nerds 451 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,000 that were fighting over the right distribution of Linux to 452 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,480 use back in the 90s got rich because Apple devices and every 453 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,240 Android device uses it uses a Linux kind of like core kernel. 454 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,120 The nerds will come at me and tell me that's what I said is is 455 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:47,840 inaccurate. But but basically that, like 456 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,800 most devices nowadays use Linux infrastructure and I think 457 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,040 Cosmos is kind of similar, right. 458 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,120 It is it is really the best stack to build stop sovereign 459 00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:00,200 app chain infrastructure. Just that you know, 460 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,880 unfortunately there isn't a mechanism by which Adam holders 461 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,480 get rich or sort of Cosmos token holders get rich because your 462 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,040 circle built circle builds their their app chain using a common 463 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,000 PFT. And and I think to some extent 464 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:18,160 Etherium does suffer a little bit from a similar fate with the 465 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,120 roll up road map where value from all these roll ups doesn't 466 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:28,280 necessarily accrue to Ethereum. And but you know, the EDM is the 467 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,000 best way to, you know, write smart contracts and write 468 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,400 applications on blockchains that hasn't the most amount of 469 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,240 developers and etcetera. So I think a lot of stacks are 470 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,280 kind of reeling with the same sorts of problems of value 471 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,040 capture. And I don't know what the way 472 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,280 around us, you know, do we have licenses where those who use the 473 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,200 stack for commercial purposes need to pay some, some fee or 474 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,240 some licensing fee back to the token holders? 475 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,200 I mean, it seems very difficult to manage. 476 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,120 So I, I don't know what the, what the solution is here. 477 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,000 Maybe the solution is just, I mean, maybe there isn't a 478 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,200 solution and just people have to accept that just because 479 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,640 someone's using your stack doesn't mean that you or 480 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,880 someone's using the stack. That you know that that you 481 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,240 invested in some other token doesn't mean that you're 482 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,600 necessarily going to benefit from that. 483 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,760 Well, I'll give you like an analogy here. 484 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:22,000 Just because I have an app in the Apple App Store doesn't mean 485 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,480 my app will be successful, right? 486 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,280 So. Just because I have quote UN 487 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,360 quote distribution through the App Store doesn't mean it's 488 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,120 going to be in the top 20 use apps because it has to 489 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,440 ultimately be a good app. So I think like this idea that 490 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,880 just because you're building something on Solana means, oh, 491 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,080 all of a sudden it's like the next pumped off fun, like 492 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,480 doesn't make any sense, right? Just because I'm building, you 493 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,800 know, on Ethereum means I'm going to now get all of the 494 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,000 liquidity of Ethereum defy. Like that doesn't make any 495 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,280 sense. So yeah, I mean, I think that 496 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,480 the same goes for Cosmos. I think the difference maybe is 497 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,200 because like from a narrative perspective, the app chain 498 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,120 thesis has been focused on apps, right? 499 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,800 And so we understand like apps is where the value accrues. 500 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,520 And if you don't have a good app, then you won't get value 501 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:26,040 and neither will perhaps that value trickle out to other app 502 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,240 chains within that same ecosystem. 503 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,160 And so I think like with Terra, obviously we had a very 504 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,760 successful app, right, very successful app chain for its 505 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,680 time. And then of course, it destroy 506 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,960 itself. But what did that show? 507 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,200 It showed that value can accrue to the app player. 508 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,280 It could accrue to the app chain, it could accrue to the 509 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,400 token holders. And you know, you could argue, 510 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,920 oh, well, that's why, you know, other Cosmos app chains did 511 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,200 well. I think that's a bit of a 512 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,400 rewriting of history. Like it was also just generally 513 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,720 a bull market and many applications did well, not just 514 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,840 in a Cosmos, but also in Ethereum. 515 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,760 But basically, if like your only source of like demand for your 516 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,560 token or your app is because like your, you know, neighbor is 517 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,520 doing a good job, like that's not a sustainable Moat. 518 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,440 And so basically you have to kind of think about, OK, well, 519 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,880 how will distribution happen in the future? 520 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,600 Where will demand come from? What is the product? 521 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,280 Is it sustainable? Is there a Moat? 522 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,160 Is it easy to use? Is it differentiated? 523 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,720 So, you know, basically I think crypto people like have to build 524 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,080 real businesses and I think that's a good thing. 525 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,720 And you know, I think Cosmos is still the stack itself is still 526 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,200 a very solid stack. Yeah, I agree. 527 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,760 I mean, I think all that makes sense and it bears repeating and 528 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,160 it bears reminding ourselves and folks in the ecosystem all 529 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,080 together. You know, that's Cosmos people. 530 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,880 I, I think the last time we spoke when you were on the 531 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,480 interop was quite a while ago and there was some you were 532 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,600 talking at that time about having an EVM on Noble. 533 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,320 How has that? Yeah, can can sort of share the 534 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,720 latest on that? Yeah. 535 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,920 So this is something we're we're working towards and really 536 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760 excited about. So we're going to be launching 537 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,240 something called Noble App Layer. 538 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,560 We'll probably be branding at something different, but for now 539 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,960 we, we're calling it the Noble App layer. 540 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,920 And basically the Noble App layer is an EV ML2 using 541 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,920 Celestia for data availability. You know, kind of Speaking of 542 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,880 Cosmos, Speaking of the stack, there's quite a, you know, a few 543 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,600 reasons why we decided to build the EVM component as an L2 544 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,320 versus adding it on top of the Noble L1, which of course is the 545 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,400 Cosmocell one, which is currently, of course, in 546 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320 production. And you know, quite, you know, 547 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,360 significant in terms of volume and routing and adoption. 548 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,840 And basically the reasons kind of are as follows. 1 You know, 549 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,840 there is a lot of exciting innovation taking place like in 550 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,440 the Etherium world as it relates to performance. 551 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,880 You know, Celestia I think is obviously like a huge part of, 552 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,800 you know, what makes, I guess like if you're more delightful 553 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,360 to build on top of kind of given their, you know, data 554 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,920 availability innovations. And so, you know, that's one 555 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,400 part of it. We wanted to, you know, also 556 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,320 make sure that we were exposed to the EVM ecosystem and just, 557 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,680 you know, historically EVM on Cosmos has been challenging to 558 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,280 say the least. And so, you know, we figured 559 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,280 first of all, there was a huge product need for smart contracts 560 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,320 and programmability, you know, for Noble. 561 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,200 And adding an EVM layer on top of Noble was not necessarily the 562 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,680 best engineering decision. And so we figured let's deploy 563 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,440 basically an L2 on top of Noble that would be validated and 564 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,640 secured by the Noble layer one, but which could act as a 565 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560 distinct execution layer for sorry to. 566 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,280 Interrupt here, but even with the Cosmos sort of EDM stack, 567 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,920 yeah, curious why why you chose to do an L2 rather than use that 568 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,960 stack which has the EDM kind of built into it? 569 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,400 Well, so so the EVM is actually not super like well maintained, 570 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,680 right. If you kind of look at like how 571 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,400 the EVM kind of software has developed over time, you have 572 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,920 like EVMOS now you have other kind of players attempting to 573 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,800 maintain that. But I mean, I'm sure you you 574 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,160 understand like EVM is as a as as as a software, you know, it 575 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,440 needs to be maintained to make sure that it's like secure and 576 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,160 that there's like, you know, de risking from like a bugs 577 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,720 perspective. And so basically we felt a lot 578 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,920 more comfortable in the maintenance and the, you know, 579 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,960 software of EVM proper kind of on you know, as it relates to 580 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:03,280 Etherium. So that was, you know, very much 581 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,480 like a concern around, again, like stability, security, making 582 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,159 sure we're always properly following major releases and 583 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,280 that the software that we use is well maintained. 584 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,040 And so it just made sense to again, build this EVM app layer 585 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,760 basically as an L2 using Celestia for DA. 586 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:22,880 And then again, performance, right? 587 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,440 Like our EVM app layer. You know, I think like yesterday 588 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,360 there were some benchmark testing and it's like 100 589 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,360 millisecond block times, right? Super fast. 590 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,199 That's faster than Noble Core, right? 591 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:39,159 Noble Core is like 1.2 seconds, which is fast, but it's not call 592 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:45,199 it fast like like like the app layer which can support, you 593 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,000 know, all sorts of things that core can't support from like an 594 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,800 execution perspective. And so you know, that was an 595 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,000 obvious decision for us. Again, we love working with the 596 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,120 Celestia team. We think the you know, the, the 597 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,840 kind of software that is maintained again is very solid 598 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,360 and it just kind of made sense for us. 599 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,200 Also, again, like talking about like the power of like the 600 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,280 Cosmos stack, like, you know it, not that this was like trivial 601 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,520 work. It was definitely a lot of hard 602 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,840 work. But there is also a world where 603 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,280 of course, Noble Core validates and secures the L2. 604 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,320 And that's also was a big part of the discussion. 605 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,000 Like can we have a single sequencer L2 running on Celestia 606 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,080 DA secured by the Noble validator set in a very secure 607 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,720 manner? The answer was yes. 608 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:33,040 And so we're very excited to be basically championing that 609 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,800 model. I did a long tweet thread on 610 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,440 kind of what makes this model perhaps different than like 611 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,960 other kind of roll up designs within the Etherium space, which 612 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,680 may be like we can link them in the notes. 613 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,520 But basically a lot of what we've done with the Noble Core 614 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,520 validating and securing the L2 is very similar to kind of like 615 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,600 the native roll up vision that I believe Italic and others put 616 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,920 forward. And yeah, we think it's pretty 617 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,440 interesting. I mean, of course it's different 618 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,600 where the Noble Core is a proof of authority chain, right? 619 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,720 So we don't have like a proof of stake kind of economic security 620 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,520 model with like, you know, a bunch of token stakes. 621 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,640 But we actually think that the proof of authority model works 622 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,440 very well for our use cases which are stable point centric. 623 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,600 So anyways, it's a lot of indifferent decision making 624 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,760 factors that kind of led us to where we are today. 625 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,400 But I think that kind of speaks to like our approach and our 626 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,200 philosophy, which is like, let's be very methodical, let's be 627 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,440 very considerate around the architecture. 628 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,720 Let's talk rush things just because everyone else is doing 629 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:42,600 it one way. We, we, we want to make sure 630 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,640 that the way we do it fits our use case and fits our 631 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,600 principles. And basically, I do believe and 632 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,320 can anticipate that the launch of the app layer, it will be 633 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,520 like a new era for for Noble because again, we've never 634 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,040 actually had defy on Noble itself, which is kind of crazy. 635 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,560 And yet there's all of this traction. 636 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,160 So yeah, we'll see what happens. And he talked a bit about the 637 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,720 role of the Noble token in this, in this new L2 and and this D 638 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:12,640 Phi ecosystem that you want to build. 639 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,440 Yeah. Definitely. 640 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,480 And we'll have some really exciting announcements actually 641 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,960 on the Noble token very, very soon. 642 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,720 But at a high level, we're talk, we're thinking of the Noble 643 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:25,080 token in like 2 ways. So one, it will be the base fee 644 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,120 token for the app layer. Basically will users can still 645 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,400 pay fees in stable coins as they currently do on core, but 646 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,520 they'll be a mechanism where that fee, those fees are swapped 647 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,080 into noble token kind of on the back end. 648 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,080 And there's like a kind of a pave masters like account system 649 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,000 around the kind of fee fee mechanism for the app player, 650 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,480 which again is noble token under the hood. 651 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,960 So again, assuming there's a lot of activity and users and you 652 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,840 know, products on Noble App Player that are well adopted 653 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,000 that will be positive for the Noble token. 654 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,280 And then the other piece is actually governance. 655 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,840 So we are keeping the proof of authority model for validation. 656 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,240 So there will not most likely be staking, but there will be 657 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:19,400 governance. What does that mean similar to, 658 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,000 you know, kind of other models where basically you could use 659 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,600 them like the governance token to have certain incentives or 660 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:34,880 have certain auctions for, let's say, you know, deploying 661 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,280 liquidity into certain pools. You know what we call like 662 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,640 bribes in the Curve model where you have like AV, in this case 663 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,280 AV Noble token. That's all kind of on the road 664 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,200 map. And we actually think again, 665 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,800 defy is at this point battle tested and we have some pretty 666 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,360 interesting applications kind of in the works. 667 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,760 And if you can layer in a Noble token on top of that where you 668 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,760 get the community kind of excited and incentive 669 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,040 incentivized and motivated to kind of govern those various 670 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,040 applications, I think there could be some interesting, 671 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,280 interesting things. Where do you? 672 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,000 Expect stablecoins to be in three to five years. 673 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,160 And what will be Noble's role in that ecosystem? 674 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,440 Yeah. Honestly, I think it's just the 675 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,560 beginning. Obviously we have all of 676 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,440 plethora of purpose built stablecoin chains launching, 677 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,320 which I think is, is ultimately +1 of the ways that I like to 678 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,720 think about differentiation among those app chains. 679 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:35,400 And you know, perhaps nobles kind of roll with within that 680 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,600 differentiation is basically as follows, right? 681 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,640 The Tam for stablecoins, for stablecoins payments is massive, 682 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,080 right? Like we mentioned earlier, this 683 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,440 kind of 1.9 trillion figure from from city. 684 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,160 I I've seen, you know, I've seen predictions as high as 4 685 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,160 trillion from financial institutions. 686 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,680 But if that is to be the case, you're going to have 687 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,800 specialization within the payments landscape that 688 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,080 basically leverages certain stable coin infrastructure, 689 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,640 right? So for Noble, if we think about 690 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,880 Noble's app layer, if you think about Noble core and performance 691 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,400 and stability there, I do see Noble playing a significant role 692 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:20,800 in this future payments kind of revolution around stable coins. 693 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,080 Whether that is more on the B to C side, you know, it's something 694 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,840 we can kind of anticipate. But we've had some pretty 695 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,120 exciting conversations with, you know, legacy traditional players 696 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,600 kind of coming into the space, looking at the space and and 697 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,600 saying basically we have a need to transform our payments 698 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200 infrastructure. Let's think about how kind of 699 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,080 Noble and again, layer ones kind of fit into that landscape. 700 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,760 So Noble will continue to always exist as this kind of router of 701 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,800 activity, as a origin chain for the minting, for the redemption 702 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,360 of these stable coins because of our performance, because of our 703 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,120 battle tested infrastructure. And basically we want to see 704 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,720 Noble and the app player do a lot of stuff on the consumer 705 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,200 facing side. So obviously it's early days, 706 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,320 but again, it's exciting days and there's a lot more to come. 707 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:09,240 Great. Well, you know. 708 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,280 Thanks for coming on the show. It's been great chatting with 709 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,120 you, getting an update on Noble and also getting a glimpse of 710 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,360 the future. So excited for Noble and the 711 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,040 things ahead. Amazing. 712 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:20,520 Thank. You, Seth.