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This is Epicenter Episode 504 
with guest Avril Dutile. 

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Welcome to Epicenter, the show 
which talks about the 

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technologies, projects, and 
people driving decentralization 

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and the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Felix, and I'm here with my 

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cohost, Mayor Roy. 
Today we're speaking with Avril 

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Dutile also known as Spade with 
the General manager of Neutron. 

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Neutron is the first consumer 
chain secured by the cosmos via 

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interchange security and is 
focused on providing secure 

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interchange defy via cosmos and 
smart contracts. 

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Welcome Avriel to Epicenter. 
Hey, folks. 

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Thanks for having me. 
Yeah, great to have you and 

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Congrats on the recent launch. 
I think very big milestone for 

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Cosmos at large and we're as 
many people know EPICENTER hosts

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and people are quite hyped about
Cosmos generally. 

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And so yeah, we're glad to have 
you on and would love to hear 

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first as it's custom about your 
background, how you, how you got

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into crypto, how you got to 
where you are today. 

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Yeah, for sure. 
I think there's there's, there's

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a few things, right. 
Like, there's part of it was 

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kind of random, just a friend, 
you know, told me about, you 

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know, hey, there's this 
electronic cash system called 

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Bitcoin that you know. 
That exists now and you should 

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look into it. 
And at the time I had been 

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looking quite deeply into a lot 
of privacy related like concerns

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in in society and in the current
technological stack that that we

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use for our day-to-day 
operations. 

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And you know, the like Snowden 
revelations and such had made me

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pretty wary and untrust, Like I 
wasn't trusting established 

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institutions and big companies 
tremendously. 

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And so you know, the fact that 
one, it was unmediated value 

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exchange and that it was at the 
time at least considered 

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pseudonymous and so therefore 
pretty good for your privacy 

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were two of the things that 
initially drove my interest into

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it. 
And so I ended up like reading 

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the the white paper and like 
finding it, like finding it kind

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of fascinating. 
Although, you know, I think at 

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that time I was still in high 
school. 

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And so just bought some Bitcoin 
at that point I think on conveys

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or something. 
But then, you know, life 

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happened and I kit and I got 
back to things around the time 

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where defi summer was a thing 
that sort of brought me back 

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into into the ecosystem because 
now it wasn't just, hey, yeah, 

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we can send this asset back and 
forth. 

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It was also that we can make 
programmable, you know, 

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applications that live on the 
blockchain entirely have the 

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same properties. 
But the use cases are like way 

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more diverse. 
And so that that brought me back

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entirely into the space and I 
basically started having, you 

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know, my day job plus my 
nighttime crypto job, I guess of

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researching how these things 
worked and what could be built 

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on top of them. 
That led me to become more and 

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more active on train and in like
what 3 communities, Some on 

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Ethereum, like Lado, but also 
some on on on Terra with a bunch

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of the protocols that were 
there. 

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I ran some AMA. 
Well, I helped with some Ama's 

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of Anchor protocol, the infamous
back in the days. 

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But in any case, that eventually
led me to, you know like pretty 

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random thing, right? 
Which I was that, you know, 

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later on Tara was going to do an
upgrade And they posted about it

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in the anchor forum and the last
line said something like, hey, 

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by the way, if you think you 
have skills that we could use 

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just like get in touch with us 
on on DMS, right? 

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And so I did. 
And so we started having like 

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calls and stuff in a few months.
Later I joined the team 

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initially as a community manager
and our team at that time was 

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very strong on the technical 
side. 

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We had like a lot of very, very 
skilled and knowledgeable 

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engineers. 
But we lacked a lot of the 

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software functions like business
development, marketing and all 

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these things like nobody wanted 
to do it. 

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That's not what people were good
at. 

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And so from community manager, 
just like managing social 

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medias, I started doing more and
more of these things basically 

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became. 
I guess head of marketing, so 

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like de facto and then head of 
growth handling some of the 

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business development for the 
project as well. 

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And so that's sort of like how I
eventually was asked to 

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basically hey, did you want to 
actually lead the team, which is

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what I do now and what I've been
doing for for quite some time 

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now. 
So it's, you know, it's pretty 

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random sort of life journey, but
it has been, you know, an honor 

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but also something that has 
taught me a whole lot so. 

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That has been really, really 
cool to go through. 

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All right. 
So basically initially you were 

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working mostly on Lido on Terra 
and then that fell apart and or 

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was it like you switched to 
Neutron? 

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Was it already its own team or 
how about that? 

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Yeah. 
So like our team built the 

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architecture, the code that ran 
Lido on Terra in the past. 

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And The thing is, like while we 
were doing this, like Lido on 

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Terra was the second most 
successful implementation of 

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Lido beyond Ethereum. 
It was like before the Terra 

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crash, it was about a $10 
billion TBL protocol. 

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So it was like a pretty massive 
protocol actually. 

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And so you know that that was a 
big part of the work we were 

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conducting like on boarding 
phases for validators and such. 

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So like that that was a big part
of the work. 

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But it like aside to this right 
there was the fact that the 

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protocol was really big on on on
Terra. 

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But Terra was, you know, in our 
head, you know, part of this 

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wider Cosmos ecosystem, but it 
wasn't very well connected with 

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it and. 
Because you know there's quite a

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bunch of first stage chains in 
Cosmos, like the ecosystem is 

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made of them. 
It made a lot of sense to try 

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and allow the protocol to to 
scale and basically provide 

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services for these other 
blockchains as well. 

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The problem was that you know 
the like, so we basically 

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started doing a lot of research 
and like hey, how do we expand 

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this protocol and make it 
available across chains 

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basically. 
And at the time, the sort of 

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like easy answer was like, hey, 
you take the small contracts and

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you redeploy them wherever you 
can, but that doesn't really 

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scale. 
And most of the Cosmos 

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blockchain don't even have small
contract capabilities. 

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So the the model was like flawed
right. 

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We there needed to be another 
sort of like playbook for how 

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you actually do crushing 
applications in in Cosmos. 

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And so that's sort of the the 
research that led us to develop 

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neutral in at at the end of the 
day, right. 

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The three sort of like pain 
points that we were faced with 

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was one, a lot of these 
blockchains lacked security, 

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like economic security. 
And that meant that you know, if

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if any protocol really was. 
Going to be tremendously 

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successful and attract a lot of 
like TBL it would turn into a 

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target and potentially you know 
help justify attacks against the

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block in itself which is you 
know not ideal let's say. 

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So security was an issue. 
The lack of crossing 

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infrastructure for Cosmos and 
small contracts was the other 

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main blocker whereby you know 
like token transfers were 

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generally something that you 
could do at the time already, 

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but you know ICA, so interesting
accounts which had already 

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released. 
Where very unwieldy to use and 

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for small contracts you didn't 
have any bindings for for your 

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small contracts you actually 
leveraged that primitive And so 

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you essentially would have had 
to you know make small contracts

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that essentially port the code 
of ICA into the cosmosome layer 

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so that you essentially 
rebuilding the entire 

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infrastructure. 
And while you know that that may

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be fine for one team that has 
you know a lot of bandwidth and 

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a lot of experience with these 
things. 

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It just doesn't make a lot of 
sense from an architectural 

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perspective like. 
Why should every DAP basically 

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end up recreating the 
infrastructure that they need to

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to to to do crushing stuff 
Basically like that should have 

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been part either of IDC or like 
sort of like the the platform 

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that the small contracts were 
on. 

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And then the last one was also 
that, you know, Terra had a very

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strong community was like, you 
know like a lot of big 

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blockchains like Solana and then
Ethereum and such was pretty 

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tribal. 
And as a result it didn't 

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really, it wasn't very 
homogeneous with Cosmos, right. 

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And so if you had. 
Primitive going from Terror to 

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the rest of the ecosystem, the 
chances that the immune system 

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of the Cosmos ecosystem would 
actually repel that primitive 

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fight against it or don't want 
to adopt it too willingly, We're

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high and sort of the other way 
around as well, right? 

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Like Cosmos primitives were 
tricky to adopt on the terror 

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ecosystem as well, right beyond 
osmosis, which actually was 

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eventually fairly well adopted. 
So, you know, finding some way 

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to have. 
Either one of credible 

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neutrality or so like ecosystem 
alignment by default was 

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something that was also 
important. 

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And so that's those are kind of 
like the early premises that let

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us develop neutron the way it is
today, whereby of the three 

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problems, security, crushing 
infrastructure and credible 

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alignment, one in three are 
actually solved by replicated 

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security. 
We have very high economic 

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security from the box, thanks to
all of the stake. 

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And all of the validators of the
Cosmos Hub and we also have very

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strong alignment with the Cosmos
Hub itself, right. 

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And so if you're a part of 
Cosmos, you probably have 

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interest in the Cosmos Hub 
remaining or leading blockchain,

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a very strong blockchain and 
sort of like the shelling point 

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for the ecosystem. 
And so replicated security 

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solves one and three and then 
the crashing infrastructure was 

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the remaining problem. 
And so that's why we focused on 

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this one and we implemented 
interchange transaction module 

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which is. 
Essentially a way to make it 

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very easily accessible for small
contracts to use interesting 

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accounts and more. 
So basically you can register 

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accounts on other blockchains, 
execute transactions, retrieve 

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execution stages and do 
callbacks as well. 

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So you can have sequences of 
actions that execute across 

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chains, and the Inter Chain 
Queries module which allows you 

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to retrieve data directly from 
the storage of other blockchains

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right over IBC. 
So we. 

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And like replicated security 
solves two of our problems and 

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then we developed the solution 
to solve the other one. 

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And we think that this together 
basically makes sort of the 

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ideal package to build crushing 
applications that can scale 

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across the entire COSMOS 
ecosystem in a way that's more 

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valuable than it used to be, 
let's say. 

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So for our listeners that may 
not have followed the Cosmos 

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ecosystem a lot, could you 
actually give an example of a 

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cross chain application? 
So maybe one example like in in 

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theory where where we go like 
maybe three or four years in the

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future and say OK this is what a
cross chain application on 

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Cosmos could do. 
And then maybe one example more 

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in practice which is like here's
the top cross chain application 

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that is life today and and what 
it what it can do in primitive 

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but it cannot. 
Demonstrates the point. 

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Yeah, that's a really good 
question. 

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So. 
I think like there's a like 

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depending on the type of 
protocol you're building, your 

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architecture is going to be 
different. 

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I think a pretty good example in
general is, you know we talked 

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about later a bit, but let's say
let's imagine like rushing 

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liquids taking, right, because 
that's sort of like where the 

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idea for neutron came from. 
So might as well. 

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So the way you could build it is
essentially something like it 

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could look something like the 
following. 

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You would have a set of small 
contracts on one blockchain, 

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Neutron in this case and that. 
A set of small contracts, we 

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could contain all of the 
business logic as well as all of

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the cross chain management 
logic. 

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Now this product like this set 
of small contracts could through

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either governance or through a 
multi sig or what have you. 

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You could accept the transaction
that allows it to register a set

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of IBC channels and create a set
of accounts on another 

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blockchain so that it can start 
like and on board that 

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blockchain to liquid staking 
basically. 

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And once that's done, so that's 
like. 

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You know, expanding to a new 
blockchain, instead of having 

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you redeploy contracts and 
making changes and such, it 

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becomes one transaction, right? 
You just trigger that happening 

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at the protocol level and it 
doesn't and then that's mainly 

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it. 
And then once that's done, 

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basically you can have the same 
UI for the user. 

229
00:12:14,050 --> 00:12:16,970
You know you have one UI that 
you go to that has whatever the 

230
00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:20,090
protocol brand is and they can 
choose whatever asset they want 

231
00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:22,490
to stay. 
Probably they're O2 detected by 

232
00:12:22,490 --> 00:12:24,690
their wallet. 
Eg let's say I connect to that 

233
00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:27,210
liquid sticking protocol. 
I have Atom it propose. 

234
00:12:27,550 --> 00:12:30,630
Like it can offer me to take 
that atom, but if I also have 

235
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:33,310
Osmar and that chain has been 
onboarded to the liquid sticking

236
00:12:33,310 --> 00:12:36,550
protocol, it order detects that 
I can have this and maybe I can 

237
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:39,190
stick both at the same time. 
But what happens in the 

238
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:42,390
background is basically, you 
know, if my Atom is on the 

239
00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:46,030
Cosmos hub or my Osmar. 
There's essentially two ways to 

240
00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:48,190
do it. 
Like the way that liquid 

241
00:12:48,190 --> 00:12:50,510
sticking protocols like STRIDE 
for example do it currently is 

242
00:12:50,510 --> 00:12:53,270
that they essentially build the 
transaction that allow you to 

243
00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:56,230
transfer all of this to their 
blockchain and then they'll 

244
00:12:56,510 --> 00:12:58,400
eventually. 
End up doing the staking 

245
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,360
operations by sending them back 
to their native chains and 

246
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,520
staking them with interesting 
accounts and ICQS. 

247
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,560
You can do that like that's very
easy to do actually, especially 

248
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:12,280
with the improvements in UX and 
APIs that are available today in

249
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,920
Cosmos. 
But you can also do it in a 

250
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,320
slightly different manner, 
whereby instead of having to do 

251
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,320
an IBC transfer, the user would 
simply on the same blockchain, 

252
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,040
send the asset to an account 
that the protocol controls. 

253
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:27,270
And the protocol would be able 
to verify that it has received 

254
00:13:27,270 --> 00:13:30,550
the deposit using an interesting
query basically, right. 

255
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:33,710
It could that or just sending a 
message or like. 

256
00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:36,150
There's multiple ways to 
implement it, but the protocol 

257
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:37,670
is able to verify that 
basically. 

258
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:41,190
And so as soon as the protocol 
knows that it has received 

259
00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:44,470
custody of the asset that needs 
to be staked, it knows, because 

260
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:47,670
it knows the exchange rate, how 
many of the derivatives like the

261
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:50,550
sorry, the liquid staking tokens
it needs to send you, right? 

262
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:52,770
So basically, as soon as it 
confirms the deposit, it can 

263
00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:56,690
send the token directly to the 
user's wallet, either on the 

264
00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:00,450
chain where the main business 
logic of the protocol exists, or

265
00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:03,410
on the other chain where the 
user had their asset, right? 

266
00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:05,530
That's something that the user 
can choose. 

267
00:14:05,530 --> 00:14:08,690
Basically, the protocol itself 
is able to just do the transfer 

268
00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:11,410
itself if needed. 
Like that's sort of like what 

269
00:14:11,410 --> 00:14:12,730
happens in the background, 
right? 

270
00:14:12,730 --> 00:14:16,370
You have one. 
The user deposits tokens into an

271
00:14:16,370 --> 00:14:18,450
account that's controlled by the
protocol, and then the protocol 

272
00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:20,810
can. 
Verify the deposit and then the 

273
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:24,330
protocol can manage that 
collateral, for example by 

274
00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:27,850
staking it. 
And it can redelegate actively 

275
00:14:27,850 --> 00:14:31,330
by verifying the state of the 
blockchain to know what are the 

276
00:14:31,330 --> 00:14:34,930
performances, various metrics of
the validators and just like 

277
00:14:34,930 --> 00:14:37,850
moving state according to its 
validator set like management 

278
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:40,330
policy. 
So basically all of this works 

279
00:14:40,330 --> 00:14:42,210
are brushing, and then from the 
user's perspective, it's 

280
00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:45,410
actually really easy. 
It's I log into one website, I 

281
00:14:46,130 --> 00:14:48,830
connect my wallet. 
It detects what assets I have 

282
00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:51,310
there, tells me which ones I can
stake with that protocol. 

283
00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:54,390
I select that, click it, and 
maybe there's 1-2 or three 

284
00:14:54,390 --> 00:14:56,710
transactions that pop on my 
screen and just confirm them, 

285
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:59,510
and then I get the derivative. 
So that's kind of like the whole

286
00:14:59,510 --> 00:15:02,390
point of this, right? 
Is that it abstracts away all of

287
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:04,790
the need to move from 1 
blockchain to the other that 

288
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:09,270
currently exists in Cosmos. 
Although new apps are a lot 

289
00:15:09,270 --> 00:15:12,230
better at this than previously 
they were. 

290
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,280
But it removes all of that 
crushing complexity, basically, 

291
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:16,720
and makes it so that there's one
product. 

292
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,200
If you want to interact with it,
you just go to the website and 

293
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,800
connect your wallet. 
Yeah. 

294
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,520
So the way I'm kind of imagining
this is one of the raw 

295
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:31,160
technologies that is kind of 
that is not maybe even neutron 

296
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,800
specific, but is there because 
of the way cosmos chains can 

297
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,080
communicate with each other. 
Is this idea of an inter chain 

298
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,080
account? 
Where? 

299
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,680
If you have like blockchain A 
and blockchain B, you can 

300
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,240
imagine an interchange account 
on blockchain B as just being a 

301
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,640
normal address for blockchain B.
It looks like a normal address 

302
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,360
to blockchain B. 
But if that address is not 

303
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:02,000
controlled by a private key as 
such, but by the entire 

304
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,160
blockchain A itself, so it can 
be controlled by the entire 

305
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,680
blockchain A itself, or it can 
be controlled by some. 

306
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:13,740
Smart contract that's written on
blockchain a both modalities are

307
00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:17,260
kind of possible. 
In Cosmos, in general, you don't

308
00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:20,700
really have the opportunity for 
smart contracts to control one 

309
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:22,900
of these accounts. 
Only the blockchain itself can 

310
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,940
do it, right? 
And so, like, that's one of the 

311
00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:28,140
things that we had to do for 
Neutron to enable a small 

312
00:16:28,140 --> 00:16:31,980
contract to control an account 
we did need. 

313
00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:35,420
Like, basically the 
authentication logic still lives

314
00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:38,500
in the blockchain itself, right?
But now your small contract has 

315
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:39,940
a way to tell the blockchain, 
hey? 

316
00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:42,810
I want you to register an 
account on that other blockchain

317
00:16:43,010 --> 00:16:47,530
that I will control essentially.
So that's one of the things that

318
00:16:47,530 --> 00:16:49,010
Neutron brings to the table, 
basically. 

319
00:16:49,130 --> 00:16:52,250
So yeah. 
So I mean if you think of like 

320
00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:54,530
you think of right at this 
start, if you think like 

321
00:16:54,530 --> 00:17:01,010
Bitcoin, then Bitcoin normally 
if you have like a very early 

322
00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:05,770
Bitcoin address, it was an 
address controlled by 1 private 

323
00:17:05,770 --> 00:17:08,500
key. 
Then in Bitcoin came the next 

324
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,819
generation, which is like the 
multi sake where it's like okay,

325
00:17:11,819 --> 00:17:15,140
it's one address by but 
controlled by three or five or 

326
00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:20,420
seven private keys. 
And then it's idiom kind of like

327
00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:24,859
generalize that to say that OK, 
you can have an address which 

328
00:17:25,420 --> 00:17:30,300
now is called a smart contract 
and then behind that address is 

329
00:17:30,460 --> 00:17:35,340
not private keys at all. 
But rather some like code and 

330
00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:39,180
data like logic and data and 
that's controlling like that an 

331
00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:42,260
address at this this is like 
kind of like a further 

332
00:17:42,260 --> 00:17:44,700
generalization of that. 
Maybe not generalization, maybe 

333
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:48,620
did not right word, but a new 
type of interaction where you 

334
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:52,300
can have an address living on a 
blockchain, but it's controlled 

335
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,100
by another blockchain 
altogether. 

336
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,340
Or by a smart contract on 
another blockchain, yes. 

337
00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:01,860
Or by a smart contract on 
another blockchain, So kind of 

338
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:04,180
like. 
Yeah, it's even like you can 

339
00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:06,820
have multiple accounts on 
multiple blockchains, all being 

340
00:18:06,820 --> 00:18:09,220
controlled by the same small 
contract on one blockchain, 

341
00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:12,540
which is kind of cool in my 
opinion. 

342
00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:15,420
Exactly. 
So you can imagine that this 

343
00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:19,820
kind of like the generalization 
of basically single sync 

344
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:23,060
address, multi sync address, 
smart contract, interchain 

345
00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:25,990
account is like a. 
Blockchain itself controlling 

346
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:30,390
addresses on other blockchains 
and then a smart contract on 

347
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:33,790
that blockchain controlling lots
of addresses on other 

348
00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:36,830
blockchains. 
So really that's one way to kind

349
00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:38,670
of like think of an interchain 
account. 

350
00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:42,750
Another way to think of an 
interchain account could well be

351
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:47,110
that sometimes people are used 
to the idea of a custody 

352
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:48,270
service, right? 
So. 

353
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,680
You want to go to a custody 
service and have the custody 

354
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,600
service generate some private 
keys and manage your private 

355
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,160
keys and then the custody 
service will kind of interact 

356
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,040
with various apps on your 
behalf. 

357
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,640
And So what kind of a COSMOS 
chain like in the chain accounts

358
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,760
or COSMOS chains fundamentally 
allow you to do is to build a 

359
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,360
distributed custody service in a
way where? 

360
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,240
You can imagine like a Cosmos 
chain is like a decentralized 

361
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,480
network but because it can 
create addresses on other 

362
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,680
networks and and you can load 
those addresses with with funds 

363
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,480
you can start to imagine like a 
Cosmos chain or Neutron 

364
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,640
specifically as like a 
distributed custodian of assets 

365
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,920
on on multiple networks. 
So this thing that imagination 

366
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,610
also works. 
I think that works. 

367
00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:46,010
I think you could build an 
application that does that on 

368
00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:49,210
Neutron, for example. 
Or I think you could even make, 

369
00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:53,850
you know an app chain that 
focuses on doing this entirely. 

370
00:19:54,210 --> 00:19:57,010
And in which case you would be 
able to, I mean, in both case 

371
00:19:57,010 --> 00:20:00,890
you would be able to, you know, 
build some safety mechanisms and

372
00:20:00,890 --> 00:20:03,130
such and into the code itself as
well. 

373
00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:06,770
So I'm pretty sure I've heard 
somebody at a conference 

374
00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:10,010
recently talk about basically 
just like their thought process.

375
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:15,850
I'm doing exactly that. 
So that's like to tie this back 

376
00:20:15,850 --> 00:20:19,650
to Neutron is like Neutron was 
not designed to do only this, 

377
00:20:19,810 --> 00:20:23,010
but it would certainly provide 
tools that would allow you to 

378
00:20:23,010 --> 00:20:25,930
build this if you wanted to. 
And I do think that that 

379
00:20:25,930 --> 00:20:29,490
technology can be used to build 
exactly that at scale actually. 

380
00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:33,290
So it's a pretty interesting So 
like the thought experiment. 

381
00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:36,530
Yeah. 
So I mean, maybe you can imagine

382
00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:39,850
Neutron is kind of like this, 
kind of like orchestrator chain 

383
00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:42,600
where? 
I can go and write a smart 

384
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:48,160
contract and I can kind of 
orchestrate assets on multiple 

385
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,400
Cosmos networks via by using 
these Interchain queries and 

386
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,440
Interchain accounts. 
One example that's particularly 

387
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,400
interesting here is an idea that
was developed and published by 

388
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,400
Delphi Labs with what they call 
the shared liquidity AMM, the 

389
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,160
SLAM. 
Basically what it sort of like 

390
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,110
the soft process that they had 
there is that they were looking 

391
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:14,990
at you know like UNISWAP and 
initially was you know it's one 

392
00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:17,910
AMM on one chain that has its 
liquidity there and you can 

393
00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:21,630
trade through that pool, right. 
And then we had another 

394
00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:26,310
generation of dexes like you 
know Curve Sushi and others that

395
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:29,150
started launching on other 
chains as well, right. 

396
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:33,070
So now you have, you can be the 
same pool or different pools 

397
00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:34,470
depending on what assets are 
available. 

398
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:37,190
But basically you have you know 
numerous pools on numerous 

399
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:39,710
networks each with their own 
liquidity, right. 

400
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:42,270
And then the problem with that 
is that it's not particularly 

401
00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:44,510
capital efficient because 
perhaps you have a lot of 

402
00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:46,310
liquidity for Ethereum on 
Ethereum. 

403
00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:50,270
But if you want to have you know
as much liquidity for that on 

404
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:52,990
another network, you'll need to,
you know compensate for the 

405
00:21:53,030 --> 00:21:57,150
change in trust assumptions for 
for the efforts required with 

406
00:21:57,150 --> 00:22:00,190
moving that liquidity extra 
extra so that the Lp's are 

407
00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:02,790
actually interested in providing
that on another network as well,

408
00:22:02,790 --> 00:22:04,390
right. 
And So what you end up having is

409
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:07,710
that you don't necessarily have 
a great match between the demand

410
00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:11,580
for various assets on each 
deployment and the liquidity 

411
00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:15,060
that's available, right, Because
that liquidity, maybe it's in a 

412
00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,980
pool in that protocol, somewhere
on some chain, but there's no 

413
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:19,380
guarantee that it will be on the
right pool. 

414
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:22,540
So that you don't have a great 
degree of guarantee that just 

415
00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:24,700
because that deck is liquid on 
Ethereum, it is also on the 

416
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,020
chain that you're trying to use 
it in. 

417
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,740
And so from there, there is sort
of like another generation of 

418
00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:34,180
dexes that tried to essentially 
have the DEX function in such a 

419
00:22:34,180 --> 00:22:37,620
way whereby you would have a 
deployment on each chain and all

420
00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:40,970
these deployments would be 
connected in a way whereby each 

421
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:45,930
of them would behave as if it 
had the aggregate liquidity of 

422
00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:48,610
the system as a whole, Right. 
That's a very appealing 

423
00:22:48,610 --> 00:22:52,010
perspective because now it's you
know, fully capital efficient, 

424
00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:55,370
it doesn't matter where people 
are depositing their liquidity 

425
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:57,410
and such. 
Wherever you're trading you're 

426
00:22:57,410 --> 00:22:58,850
going to benefit from it 
basically. 

427
00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:01,570
The problem with that though is 
that because there is some 

428
00:23:01,570 --> 00:23:04,450
latency between, you know, 
whatever rebalancing operations 

429
00:23:04,450 --> 00:23:07,380
may occur between the various 
deployments, that means that 

430
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:09,860
there's, you know, plenty of 
opportunities for arbitragers to

431
00:23:09,860 --> 00:23:13,740
come in and basically are the 
pools and take the value before 

432
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:17,300
the the protocol itself has the 
chance to rebalance itself as a 

433
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:17,820
whole. 
Right. 

434
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:20,780
And So what what that led is 
that basically the impermanent 

435
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:25,260
loss becomes extremely dramatic 
for Lp's and that sorts of 

436
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,660
killed the primitive. 
And so Delphi kind of like you 

437
00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:32,220
know looked into all of these 
and they postulated the idea 

438
00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:36,760
that you could still take the 
idea of that improvement whereby

439
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,720
you want to connect these 
deployments so that they provide

440
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,320
the optimal training experience 
for traders and are as capital 

441
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,920
efficient as possible. 
But make it in a way where you 

442
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,760
don't get that like bad trade 
off of you know like losing 

443
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720
liquidity to arbitrage. 
And what they came up with was 

444
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,480
the idea that you could have a 
decks that has all of its 

445
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,160
deployments connected and then 
dynamically allocates its 

446
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,400
liquidity across pools on the 
various networks based on 

447
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080
demand, right. 
The easier way to do this is 

448
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,720
basically you actually 
physically move the Lps around, 

449
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,600
like the assets around via IBC 
or another bridging protocol. 

450
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600
And you use sort of like a 
reactive algorithm so that 

451
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,160
you're for example, using 
interesting queries to observe 

452
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,320
sort of like the usage data on 
the chain, right? 

453
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:35,310
How many transactions are there 
trying to swap for X asset or 

454
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:38,310
how many, You know, what's the 
volume or all of these metrics, 

455
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:39,590
right? 
You can retrieve them with an 

456
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:42,750
ICQ and then you can have an 
algorithm that just reacts to 

457
00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:47,590
the changes in this usage to 
basically reallocate liquidity 

458
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:49,870
accordingly. 
That's one way that you can do 

459
00:24:49,870 --> 00:24:53,870
it. 
But the paper basically tried to

460
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:58,350
show that if you know, even if 
it's not going to be accurate 

461
00:24:58,350 --> 00:25:01,660
100% of the time, there are good
chances that you can make 

462
00:25:01,660 --> 00:25:05,420
algorithms that are actually 
good enough to most of the time 

463
00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:09,260
predict accurately where the 
liquidity will be needed. 

464
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:13,460
And so by using that as an input
rather than just reacting to the

465
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:16,220
protocol, you can essentially 
dynamically move that liquidity 

466
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:18,740
around. 
And another improvement that you

467
00:25:18,740 --> 00:25:21,140
can do is like instead of 
actually physically moving the 

468
00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:23,900
assets every time, perhaps you 
can just have a centralized 

469
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,780
accounting of what liquidity is 
in the system. 

470
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:29,950
And then allow the various 
satellites to essentially take 

471
00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:33,310
on depth against each other and 
then settle with assets when 

472
00:25:33,310 --> 00:25:35,750
required. 
Because there's not enough 

473
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:37,910
liquidity to honor a trade. 
Or you're approaching some 

474
00:25:37,910 --> 00:25:40,150
threshold or such. 
So that at the end of the day, 

475
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:43,670
you're minimizing the cost of 
the entire protocol by not 

476
00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:46,990
having to have like token 
transfers and such too 

477
00:25:46,990 --> 00:25:50,550
frequently. 
And you're maximizing how close 

478
00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:56,200
you can get to the to the ideal 
scenario of the liquidity of the

479
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,040
protocol is used on all things, 
right? 

480
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,880
So it's a compromise towards 
that first version, but at least

481
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,360
it's not vulnerable to the same 
attacks. 

482
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,560
And with architecture like 
infrastructure like what Neutron

483
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,680
provides, it actually becomes a 
lot more manageable to build 

484
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,160
stuff like this. 
And so I think you asked me 

485
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,320
before about what's a good 
example to understand what you 

486
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,720
can do with this. 
The liquid second example is an 

487
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,640
easy one in my opinion because 
it's pretty simple. 

488
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,640
You have you know one account, 
you accept deposits, you send 

489
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,760
the the derivatives and then the
SLAM in my opinion is a really 

490
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,240
good example of the change in 
experience that we may 

491
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,240
experience by like in user 
experience that we may see by, 

492
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,360
you know, witnessing the the the
appearance of like Russian 

493
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,760
protocols over the next few 
years basically. 

494
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,560
Whereas it doesn't matter where 
you're interacting with this 

495
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,360
protocol with, you can sort of 
get the best out of it anyway 

496
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,640
because it sort of manages 
itself as one body rather than 

497
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,960
separate segregated deployments.
Yeah, that's that's really cool.

498
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,760
So yeah, so essentially like the
superpower that you can give 

499
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,120
developers is that they 
ultimately have to write a smart

500
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:11,240
contract and deploy it on the 
Neutron shape, but. 

501
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,600
That smart contract can control 
accounts on a lot of different 

502
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,240
networks and it can optimize 
kind of liquidity across a lot 

503
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,760
of different networks, which 
would be important in various 

504
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200
applications. 
So I think there's a few 

505
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,720
benefits, right? 
Like the first one is like, as 

506
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,480
you said, you can optimize 
liquidity across multiple 

507
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,120
networks. 
I think another one of the key 

508
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,650
benefits is that you can, you 
can provide a crushing 

509
00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:37,810
experience that doesn't feel 
like a crushing experience, 

510
00:27:37,810 --> 00:27:39,730
right? 
Because no, no one likes to be 

511
00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:42,290
changing the chain, their wallet
or stuff like all of these extra

512
00:27:42,290 --> 00:27:45,010
steps, they're just burdensome. 
They should be removed 

513
00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:48,090
eventually. 
For IBC to win, it needs to be 

514
00:27:48,090 --> 00:27:50,690
completely, you know like like 
you don't think about TCP IP 

515
00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:53,410
when you're using the Internet, 
just should be the same for I, 

516
00:27:53,450 --> 00:27:56,450
for IBC, right? 
IBC wins when we're able to make

517
00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:00,050
you know from like like consumer
facing products that are 

518
00:28:00,610 --> 00:28:06,100
completely you know removed from
the actual intricacies of the of

519
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:08,500
the crashing infrastructure that
underlies them, right. 

520
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:12,780
So basically, you know Neutrons 
infrastructure allows you to 

521
00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:15,540
well first build crashing 
protocols, right, which was a 

522
00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:18,460
lot trickier before and it 
allows you to do it without 

523
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:21,820
having to redeploy like recreate
a lot of like infrastructure 

524
00:28:21,820 --> 00:28:24,300
because they come so like keen 
hand for you basically you 

525
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:25,580
already have the bindings to use
them. 

526
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,300
But it also yeah, so UX benefits
and I think sort of like the 

527
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:36,300
emergent property of this is 
that it sorts of flip the script

528
00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:40,420
of the playbook for how you make
a successful small contract 

529
00:28:40,420 --> 00:28:44,180
platform, right. 
Like traditionally if you, you 

530
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:46,540
know like I'm building a small 
contract platform, I want all of

531
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:49,820
the liquidity, all of the users 
and I want all of the apps on 

532
00:28:49,820 --> 00:28:52,340
top of my network to be 
exclusive to my network because 

533
00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:56,140
that's how I maximize the appeal
of my network to you know the 

534
00:28:56,140 --> 00:29:00,410
broader audience and and the 
potential user base Right now 

535
00:29:00,410 --> 00:29:03,370
with Neutron because it allows 
you to actually create 

536
00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:06,770
interoperable crushing 
protocols, it's also flips the 

537
00:29:06,810 --> 00:29:09,970
switch in that we actually need 
other projects and other app 

538
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:12,810
chains to be successful so that 
there are markets to 

539
00:29:12,810 --> 00:29:16,130
interoperate like markets and 
app chains to interoperate with,

540
00:29:16,130 --> 00:29:18,450
right. 
And what it does is that it 

541
00:29:18,450 --> 00:29:21,450
basically allows, from the 
perspective of the developers, 

542
00:29:21,490 --> 00:29:25,010
instead of having to choose a 
platform by virtue of its 

543
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:31,130
specific market and market size 
and its specific feature set, it

544
00:29:31,130 --> 00:29:34,130
allows you to essentially deploy
on neutrons so that you don't 

545
00:29:34,130 --> 00:29:36,810
have to choose, right? 
So for example, if I'm really 

546
00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:40,690
interested in fast execution for
parts of my protocol, I can 

547
00:29:40,930 --> 00:29:43,970
deploy on Neutron and then 
leverage, say, for some of these

548
00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:46,570
interactions. 
If I'm interested in privacy for

549
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:49,330
some of like some other part of 
my protocol, let's say I want to

550
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:51,930
do sealed bid auctions or 
private voting. 

551
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:55,510
Perhaps I can just deploy an 
enclave on like secret network 

552
00:29:55,550 --> 00:29:58,510
and then anonymize some of the 
traffic going into my 

553
00:29:58,510 --> 00:30:03,030
application so that I basically 
leverage their features without 

554
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:05,550
in a way that's not like 
exclusive, right? 

555
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:08,270
I can deploy on Neutron and 
leverage the features of these 

556
00:30:08,270 --> 00:30:10,990
multiple blockchains, but also 
because it makes it easier for 

557
00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:14,110
me to bring my application to 
market on these blockchains as 

558
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:17,570
well. 
I'm no longer constrained by the

559
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:21,690
market size, eg the amount of 
value on Neutron and the number 

560
00:30:21,690 --> 00:30:24,970
of users on Neutron. 
I can now also with the same 

561
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:28,730
deployment I can also tap into 
the liquidity and user basis of 

562
00:30:28,770 --> 00:30:30,170
other blockchains and other 
projects. 

563
00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:31,930
Right. 
Yeah. 

564
00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:35,970
But you are basically still 
limited by the support for 

565
00:30:35,970 --> 00:30:39,210
interchange accounts or like 
IBC, but you can tap into this 

566
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:42,170
entire ecosystem for resistance 
to signal. 

567
00:30:42,940 --> 00:30:45,180
Which is, yeah. 
Or I see specifically, yeah, 

568
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:47,620
there. 
There are some dependencies in 

569
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:50,180
Cosmos though, like Ica's are 
pretty well adopted. 

570
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:54,540
A lot of a lot of chains have 
the like Ica's have sort of two 

571
00:30:54,660 --> 00:30:57,580
sides to that. 
To them, there is the controller

572
00:30:57,580 --> 00:30:59,740
side, which allows you to 
register accounts on other 

573
00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:01,700
chains. 
And then there's the whole host 

574
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:04,060
side. 
There's not that many chains 

575
00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:06,740
that have the controller 
functionality enabled, but but 

576
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:10,060
most of them actually have the 
the host chain enabled, which 

577
00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:11,900
means that Neutron can register 
accounts on them. 

578
00:31:13,390 --> 00:31:16,670
Right. 
Do you expect that to change 

579
00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:20,270
like many chains will become or 
will try to become sort of this 

580
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:24,790
controller chain since if you 
are the like, what are the 

581
00:31:24,790 --> 00:31:27,150
benefits if you're the 
controller chain, like yes, it's

582
00:31:27,150 --> 00:31:29,950
like sort of go through you I 
guess you can sort of capture 

583
00:31:29,950 --> 00:31:32,480
value there. 
I think it really depends on the

584
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,080
project, right? 
If you don't have A use for your

585
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,360
protocol to be doing stuff on 
other blockchains or maintaining

586
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,720
assets on other chains, then 
there's no point in you having 

587
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,040
the controller functionality. 
Like in Neutron's case that was 

588
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,800
important because you know the 
assumption is that developers 

589
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,400
building small contract 
applications that wanna expand 

590
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,080
crashing will want their small 
contracts to actually control 

591
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,520
some of these things, right? 
So it was a requirement rather 

592
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,830
than really your choice, but for
other applications you may want 

593
00:31:59,830 --> 00:32:02,750
to use it. 
For example, let's say I'm a 

594
00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:05,470
lending and boring protocol like
UMI. 

595
00:32:06,270 --> 00:32:10,390
Maybe I want to use, maybe I 
want to have the ability to send

596
00:32:10,390 --> 00:32:12,910
tokens to an enclave that I 
control, an account that I 

597
00:32:12,910 --> 00:32:15,350
control on another chain to be 
able to liquidate through 

598
00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:17,950
existing public liquidity on an 
AMM or such. 

599
00:32:18,670 --> 00:32:21,030
And so I could use interesting 
accounts to do that. 

600
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:23,950
But now, is that the most 
efficient way that I can 

601
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:26,110
liquidate? 
Well, that's not a given, right?

602
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:29,550
Because IBC, and especially 
today is still, you know, it's 

603
00:32:29,630 --> 00:32:34,790
asynchronous and it's relatively
slower than what you can do on 

604
00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:36,950
one blockchain, right? 
Because you do need to wait for 

605
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:39,590
multiple blocks to be passed for
the entire sequence of events to

606
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:42,310
unfold. 
So that may be a good solution, 

607
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:45,230
but potentially there's a better
way to do it right? 

608
00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:48,430
And for example, like UMI, 
currently to the extent that I 

609
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:52,460
to the extent of my knowledge, 
what they do is instead the 

610
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:55,500
auction of the collateral on UMI
so that the cross chain 

611
00:32:56,260 --> 00:32:59,420
transfers are not handled by UMI
and they don't have to wait for 

612
00:32:59,420 --> 00:33:01,100
that. 
They just, you know, they just 

613
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,220
do the auction and whoever is 
the fastest guess gets the bonus

614
00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:06,700
essentially. 
So you know, there are tradeoffs

615
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,300
here, especially in terms of 
speed today. 

616
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:11,820
Although I expect that this will
become a lot less burdensome in 

617
00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:14,380
the future because block time 
hasn't mattered so much in 

618
00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:17,540
Cosmos so far. 
But as more and more 

619
00:33:17,540 --> 00:33:21,260
applications are built upon ABC 
like latency is going to become 

620
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:24,140
more of a friction point. 
And so there will be more of an 

621
00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:27,220
incentives for change to sort of
like improve in this front in my

622
00:33:27,220 --> 00:33:29,740
opinion. 
So I expect block time to trend 

623
00:33:29,820 --> 00:33:33,020
lower in Cosmos cuz there's a 
lot of low hanging fruits in 

624
00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:36,620
this regard. 
But now you know, an alternative

625
00:33:36,620 --> 00:33:38,980
for what UMI might be interested
in having interesting accounts 

626
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:44,580
for is for example, how about 
they allow users to deposit 

627
00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:46,700
collateral from other chains, 
right? 

628
00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:50,670
Like that's a lot more, you 
know, palatable for you me, 

629
00:33:50,670 --> 00:33:55,470
because it basically provides 
easy access to the protocol from

630
00:33:55,550 --> 00:33:58,150
other chains that people might 
have assets and interest in, 

631
00:33:58,150 --> 00:33:59,630
right? 
And so for example, they could 

632
00:33:59,630 --> 00:34:03,510
deploy an outpost on Neutron 
that allows folks to deposit 

633
00:34:03,510 --> 00:34:06,470
into the protocol without having
to do the ABC transfers to the 

634
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:09,389
UMI blockchain, just by sending 
to an account that they control 

635
00:34:09,389 --> 00:34:13,389
on Neutron and then just moving 
and depositing the the tokens at

636
00:34:13,429 --> 00:34:16,230
a periodic interval, for 
example, something like this. 

637
00:34:16,830 --> 00:34:19,590
So that would be possible. 
And in fact, that's kind of the 

638
00:34:19,590 --> 00:34:23,710
route that osmosis is going for.
It's not necessarily like ICA 

639
00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:27,350
specific, but basically they're 
working on this outpost model 

640
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:31,550
where the outpost is what we 
call like a lean outpost. 

641
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:33,310
It doesn't actually hold any 
liquidity. 

642
00:34:33,790 --> 00:34:37,150
So it's not synchronously 
composable, but it serves as 

643
00:34:37,630 --> 00:34:41,830
like an interface, an API for 
protocols that want to leverage 

644
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:43,070
osmosis. 
So, right. 

645
00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:46,090
So you have the small contract, 
for example a neutron and you 

646
00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:48,770
know it can have a UI that 
allows you to use it as if it 

647
00:34:48,770 --> 00:34:52,010
was a Dexam neutron or other 
small contracts can interact 

648
00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:54,570
with that small contract to 
basically send calls to the 

649
00:34:54,570 --> 00:34:57,490
osmosis blockchain, right. 
So if you send it to token to do

650
00:34:57,490 --> 00:35:01,130
your swap, it will take that 
token, send it to osmosis, swap 

651
00:35:01,130 --> 00:35:04,970
that token as long as your 
slippage metrics are, you know 

652
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:08,450
are valid and the slippage 
didn't get out of hand and then 

653
00:35:08,450 --> 00:35:10,530
return the proceeds to you 
basically, right. 

654
00:35:10,530 --> 00:35:13,570
So it serves as like an API for 
osmosis essentially. 

655
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,680
So there's a bunch of models 
that that that applications can 

656
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,720
take right from the most heavy 
outbursts, kind of like Mars. 

657
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,960
What Mars is doing, for example,
on osmosis where the collateral 

658
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,840
actually lives on the blockchain
where the outburst is to the 

659
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,360
leaner models where like which 
osmosis or Cosmos are doing 

660
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,200
where it's mostly an API. 
Right, Yeah, super interesting. 

661
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,320
I think, yeah we basically you 
mentioned the three kind of 

662
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,910
core. 
Things that you wanted to solve 

663
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:46,390
or that you saw the problems in 
the COSMOS ecosystem, right. 

664
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:49,670
I guess we talked mostly about 
the second one now and you 

665
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:52,310
mentioned I think ecosystem 
alignment and security which are

666
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:55,750
basically coming out-of-the-box 
more or less through interchange

667
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:58,230
security. 
So I guess we can dive a little 

668
00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:02,350
bit into your or like 
interchange security, what is 

669
00:36:02,350 --> 00:36:04,390
interchange security? 
You probably start there and we 

670
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:07,910
can get into like how you 
adopted it, how you leverage it,

671
00:36:07,910 --> 00:36:10,990
but maybe you start simple and 
then you can sort of explain. 

672
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,980
What interchange security is our
replicated security? 

673
00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:16,260
We also hear it called 
sometimes. 

674
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:19,660
So yeah, maybe give our lesson 
is a bit of the basics of 

675
00:36:19,660 --> 00:36:21,780
interchange security here. 
Yeah, for sure. 

676
00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:26,580
So interchange security is a 
family of technologies from the 

677
00:36:26,580 --> 00:36:29,140
great category of shared 
security in blockchain, which is

678
00:36:29,140 --> 00:36:33,100
essentially how do we use the 
same asset to secure multiple 

679
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:35,750
profile sections. 
And it's a flavor, let's say 

680
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:38,910
it's a category of family that 
is specific to Cosmos, right, 

681
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:41,350
because it leverages IBC, So 
Inter chain, Inter chain 

682
00:36:41,350 --> 00:36:47,190
security, now the specific 
variant that currently exists in

683
00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:49,430
production is called replicated 
security. 

684
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:54,030
And the sort of like one liner 
pitch for what replicated 

685
00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:57,790
security is, is it is a 
technology that allows the 

686
00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:01,510
provider chain, in this case 
today, the Cosmos Hub, to 

687
00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:07,080
provide the same economic 
security that it personally 

688
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,440
enjoys, like that the blockchain
enjoys to another chain called 

689
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,600
either a partner or a consumer 
chain. 

690
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,880
And it does so by leveraging its
validator set and its stake and 

691
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,080
IBC, right. 
So there's a connection between 

692
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,840
the two blockchains that allow 
them to exchange messages, and 

693
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,920
that allows the sort of like 
Proof of Stake set up of there's

694
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,240
a reward for validators doing 
their job and there's a 

695
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,000
punishment for them misbehaving.
And we just track as we go. 

696
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,880
And as long as they validate 
properly, they get rewards and 

697
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,640
if they misbehave, they get 
slashed. 

698
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,560
It basically allows you to 
reproduce that setup, except 

699
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,400
instead of having every 
component on one chain, you have

700
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,640
them sort of like distributed on
2 chains. 

701
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,240
I think it would be interesting 
to kind of compare and contrast 

702
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,760
like replicated security to 
other kind of models that are 

703
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,760
there. 
Across the ecosystem, for 

704
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,960
example, maybe we can start with
like comparing it to polka dot. 

705
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,040
So in polka dot there's like a 
relay chain and then there are 

706
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,360
like para chains. 
And then the the validators that

707
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,440
are running the relay chain and 
polka dot are the same as those 

708
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,080
that are kind of running the 
para chains. 

709
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,700
So in replicated security at. 
At high level looks very 

710
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:31,340
similar. 
There's a set of validators that

711
00:38:31,340 --> 00:38:36,460
are running the Cosmos Hub and 
then now those same validators 

712
00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:38,940
are also running the neutron 
chain. 

713
00:38:39,460 --> 00:38:42,420
So it looks similar like what's 
the difference between? 

714
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:48,420
Is it just like Cosmos Hub, just
copying what polka dot set out 

715
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:50,540
to do? 
Or is there a material 

716
00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:52,620
difference between these two 
designs? 

717
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:57,010
No, clearly it's just a copy. 
You know we were a bit jealous 

718
00:38:57,010 --> 00:38:59,930
of of Paul Kadot, so we just 
decided to to apply the 

719
00:38:59,930 --> 00:39:02,810
playbook. 
No, I mean like like the first 

720
00:39:02,810 --> 00:39:05,250
thing is like that has been in 
the works for quite a long time,

721
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:06,530
right. 
So I don't think it would be 

722
00:39:06,530 --> 00:39:10,890
fair to say that it's just the 
hub like copying this, but it it

723
00:39:10,890 --> 00:39:15,570
as you said like there are very 
similar in sort of like the the 

724
00:39:15,570 --> 00:39:20,650
structure of that technology 
with I guess one well I I would 

725
00:39:20,650 --> 00:39:24,560
say like two major differences. 
The first one is that in polka 

726
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,040
dot it's this mechanism is it's 
required to join the polka dot 

727
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,880
ecosystem. 
If you, you know, if you don't 

728
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,000
get your power chain attached to
the relay chain, you basically 

729
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,800
don't have a polka dot chain. 
You maybe have some code, but 

730
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,200
you don't have a functioning 
blockchain. 

731
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,840
Whereas in Cosmos, like all of 
the Cosmos technologies are 

732
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,800
available for you to use and in 
your own project regardless of 

733
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,560
whether or not the hub wants you
to be part of the you know Atom 

734
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,030
economic zone. 
The sort of like you know like I

735
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:58,390
guess you could say the Adam 
economic zone is to the Cosmos 

736
00:39:58,390 --> 00:40:00,870
Hub what polka dot is to the 
Relay chain, right. 

737
00:40:00,870 --> 00:40:02,270
It's the ecosystem of chains 
around it. 

738
00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:05,350
And so like that does the first 
thing right. 

739
00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:08,350
Interesting security is not 
required to launch in in Cosmos 

740
00:40:08,350 --> 00:40:11,590
and in fact the vast majority of
chains in Cosmos today don't 

741
00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:13,910
leverage like in security at 
all. 

742
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:17,910
And the second thing is in polka
dot you have a. 

743
00:40:18,580 --> 00:40:22,180
Mechanism for the onboarding of 
new chains that is very, very 

744
00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:26,140
formal, itchy. 
There's an option and whatever 

745
00:40:26,220 --> 00:40:29,660
gets the most dot you know 
locked into that option is what 

746
00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:34,820
gets a power chain slot in 
Cosmos, for better or for worse.

747
00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:37,060
There is no formal mechanism, 
right. 

748
00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:41,540
So it is I guess as usual in 
Cosmos it's, it's done through 

749
00:40:41,540 --> 00:40:44,060
governance, right. 
So there is sort of like public 

750
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:46,980
negotiation process and that has
you know trade-offs. 

751
00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:51,200
On the one hand it's less clear,
you know that's the it's, it's a

752
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,320
lot more flexible, but it's also
less clear what should be 

753
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,160
expected from there. 
But at the same time, it also 

754
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:02,840
allows you a lot of flexibility 
because let's say there there's 

755
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,840
sort of three main tools that 
you can sort of like put into 

756
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,000
the the balance to get listed on
like to get on boarded into 

757
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,840
replicated security today 
Obviously there needs to be 

758
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,760
something in in it for the hub 
for that, for the hub and its 

759
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,920
community to vote for your 
change to be on boarded. 

760
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,400
And that in my opinion can come 
mostly in three ways. 

761
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,880
First one, it's either if you 
have a token, if your project 

762
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,560
has a token, then you can 
allocate some of these tokens 

763
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,640
either in one go or through 
streaming or whatever 

764
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,200
distribution mechanism you want 
to the Cosmos hub, right. 

765
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,920
That's the very straightforward 
sort of like kind of the second 

766
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:43,400
one is if you, if your protocol 
generates revenue in whatever 

767
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,450
way, then it can allocate A 
portion of that revenue and that

768
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:49,650
may be transaction fees on the 
network, that may be fees on 

769
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:52,650
specific operations like for 
example for deck swap fees or 

770
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:55,570
what have you. 
It can be me revenue, it can be 

771
00:41:55,610 --> 00:41:58,330
whatever you can think of if you
generate revenue, you can share 

772
00:41:58,330 --> 00:42:02,170
that with the hub. 
And then the last thing which is

773
00:42:03,250 --> 00:42:08,090
paradoxically I think the 
strongest element early on but 

774
00:42:08,090 --> 00:42:11,380
also the one that is the 
basically impossible to quantify

775
00:42:11,380 --> 00:42:14,220
and so it's very difficult for 
to take that into account into 

776
00:42:14,220 --> 00:42:18,380
the thought process is sort of 
the strategic value to the hub 

777
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:22,940
and to Adam as an asset that 
adding the project may have 

778
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:25,340
right. 
So for example you know like one

779
00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:28,260
of the one like some of the 
projects that are looking 

780
00:42:28,260 --> 00:42:31,260
planning to on board to 
replicate its security in the in

781
00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:34,020
the short term are liquid 
sticking app chains. 

782
00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:37,860
So beyond the fact that these 
protocols through their 

783
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,440
financial services generate 
revenue by taking cut on the 

784
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,640
liquid staking derivatives, so 
that that's one of the things 

785
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,000
right or maybe they have a token
and they allocate some to the 

786
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:52,000
hub, that's another mechanism. 
One of the deciding factors is 

787
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,840
that because these protocol 
actually handle and manage a 

788
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,440
large amount of atom, which is 
crucial to the security of the 

789
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,800
COSMOS hub itself, there is a 
strong incentive to ensure that 

790
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,500
these chains are adequately 
secured so that they're not too 

791
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:10,940
easy to capture for somebody who
would be like looking to try to 

792
00:43:10,940 --> 00:43:13,740
do, you know, like a governance 
or economic attack on the hub, 

793
00:43:14,140 --> 00:43:15,500
right. 
Because if you compromise these 

794
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:17,820
chains, you're going to be 
compromising the mechanisms like

795
00:43:17,820 --> 00:43:20,420
the, you know, the intrusion 
accounts that control the stake 

796
00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:22,220
on the Cosmos hub as well. 
And so that gives you 

797
00:43:22,540 --> 00:43:26,180
potentially a way to lever up on
the damage that you could do to 

798
00:43:26,180 --> 00:43:28,180
the hub, right. 
And so here we have, like this 

799
00:43:28,220 --> 00:43:31,340
third lever that comes into 
play, whereby there's a strong 

800
00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:34,660
strategic incentive for the hub 
to secure these chains, whether 

801
00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:36,940
or not it's going to make a 
profit by doing so, right? 

802
00:43:37,590 --> 00:43:40,870
So there's this sort of like 3 
categories that apply in 

803
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:43,190
replicated security, and they're
difficult to assess. 

804
00:43:43,470 --> 00:43:47,150
There currently doesn't exist a 
formal model on exactly how to 

805
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:49,470
do that the right way. 
And there's a bunch of 

806
00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:54,430
trade-offs. 
EG1 approach that we sometimes 

807
00:43:54,430 --> 00:43:57,270
hear is that the hub should 
launch as many consumer trades 

808
00:43:57,270 --> 00:44:01,000
as possible, because this way it
has, it optimizes its chances of

809
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,600
having 1-2 or three unicorns in 
in the batch. 

810
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,040
In which case that's a really 
good outcome and it can just 

811
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,320
trim off the the projects that 
fail over time. 

812
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:09,920
You know, that's one way of 
doing things. 

813
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,000
But the the problem, the 
limiting factor here is that 

814
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,960
while that's probably 
technically possible 

815
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,920
economically speaking, that 
implies that validators now have

816
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,720
to run you know 20-30 forty 
times more infrastructure, which

817
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:28,040
means that that basically 
closely translate to 40, 50 

818
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,520
times the the infrastructure 
cost, right, running an 

819
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,240
additional blockchain in 
replicated security basically 

820
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:36,200
translate to the same cost as 
running another chain without 

821
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,800
replicated security, at least 
today. 

822
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,600
And so you know that cost, that 
burden on the validators is 

823
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,680
currently the limiting factor to
the adoption of in growth of the

824
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,800
number of chains on on 
replicated security. 

825
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,000
And that's something that's 
actively being worked on by 

826
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,560
numerous teams like we did quite
a bunch of work on this. 

827
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,200
Like we were the first one to 
actually push for this to be 

828
00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,510
modeled but, but but there's 
quite a few teams like duality a

829
00:45:00,510 --> 00:45:03,830
whole bunch of validators 
corresponding included included 

830
00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:08,430
are working on trying to push 
for a more sustainable or 

831
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:10,910
framework or model for 
replicated security. 

832
00:45:11,070 --> 00:45:13,390
And there's a bunch of ideas for
like floating around, like 

833
00:45:13,390 --> 00:45:15,230
having different Commission 
rates on the various 

834
00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:18,310
blockchains, having a stipend 
mechanism, having different 

835
00:45:18,310 --> 00:45:22,310
types of emissions, requiring 
like higher thresholds of 

836
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:25,310
revenue share or tokens 
allocations to the hub extra 

837
00:45:25,310 --> 00:45:31,260
extra extra to try and find a 
stable economic equilibrium for 

838
00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:34,940
this. 
Basically now I'm like maybe 

839
00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:37,780
long term I'm pretty optimistic 
that this will be found. 

840
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:41,100
And especially because the 
current flavor of security that 

841
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:43,820
we're talking about, replicated 
security is sort of like the 

842
00:45:43,820 --> 00:45:47,860
first iteration of the 
technology which enforces that 

843
00:45:47,980 --> 00:45:51,380
all validators with a few 
caveats, we can touch upon them 

844
00:45:51,380 --> 00:45:52,700
like later. 
But basically all of the 

845
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,260
validators of the Cosmos hub 
have to run every consumer chain

846
00:45:56,260 --> 00:45:58,620
that is widely listed by 
governance and with a few 

847
00:45:58,620 --> 00:46:01,700
caveats like again. 
But basically that means that 

848
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:03,700
there's no way for the 
validators to basically manage 

849
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,780
their exposure to the cost of 
consumer chains and the revenues

850
00:46:06,780 --> 00:46:08,980
that they or rewards that they 
may generate, right? 

851
00:46:09,620 --> 00:46:14,300
In the upcoming version of that 
technology, which I think is 

852
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:17,460
dubbed opt in security, 
validators would have the 

853
00:46:17,460 --> 00:46:20,700
ability to decide whether or not
they want to secure these 

854
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:23,660
chains. 
That can create sort of game 

855
00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:27,620
theoretical problems whereby if 
you had the first validator by 

856
00:46:27,620 --> 00:46:30,860
voting power, opting in with 
just two validators from the 

857
00:46:30,860 --> 00:46:33,580
bottom of the set opting in, you
would end up in the situation 

858
00:46:33,580 --> 00:46:35,660
where the voting power on that 
consumer chain is basically 

859
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:39,660
likes more than 70% is owned by 
the top validator and the other 

860
00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:42,940
validators are basically 
irrelevant to the consensus. 

861
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:46,620
So there needs to be some 
guardrails in place to avoid 

862
00:46:46,620 --> 00:46:48,500
such a situation from from 
occurring. 

863
00:46:49,090 --> 00:46:54,010
But that should make it a lot 
more manageable to onboard new 

864
00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:57,130
chains to ICS. 
Because now validators that are 

865
00:46:57,130 --> 00:47:00,970
generating more profits on their
initial activity of securing the

866
00:47:00,970 --> 00:47:04,570
hub have probably stronger 
shoulders to secure more chains 

867
00:47:04,570 --> 00:47:07,250
and enable the hub to 
potentially accrue value this 

868
00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:09,850
way. 
Whereas smaller validators could

869
00:47:09,850 --> 00:47:14,210
just opt out of some of these 
chains and therefore not incur 

870
00:47:14,210 --> 00:47:17,930
any additional cost which would 
allow them to stay stable in the

871
00:47:17,930 --> 00:47:22,210
set, which basically like would 
protect the hub from sort of 

872
00:47:22,210 --> 00:47:24,650
like the main concern about 
replicated security and its 

873
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:28,690
economic model today, which is 
that if not addressed it may 

874
00:47:28,690 --> 00:47:32,410
create some centralizing vectors
whereby the cost on smaller 

875
00:47:32,410 --> 00:47:36,410
players would force them to 
either go bankrupt or drop out 

876
00:47:36,410 --> 00:47:39,210
of the set because they weren't,
they wouldn't be able to to 

877
00:47:39,210 --> 00:47:41,610
support that, that added cost 
basically. 

878
00:47:42,770 --> 00:47:45,610
So that that's sort of like the 
the, the limiting factor to 

879
00:47:45,610 --> 00:47:48,650
replicated security. 
And as a result of this, I think

880
00:47:48,650 --> 00:47:52,970
strategically and sort of like 
programmatically as well, what's

881
00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:55,570
likely to happen and to be the 
best scenario for the hub in the

882
00:47:55,570 --> 00:48:00,290
short, medium term is actually 
to be very selective of the 

883
00:48:00,290 --> 00:48:02,610
chains that it actually launches
for two reasons. 

884
00:48:02,610 --> 00:48:04,450
The first one is like there's 
this whole economic thing, 

885
00:48:04,530 --> 00:48:07,210
right, whereby you want every 
project that actually gets 

886
00:48:07,210 --> 00:48:10,850
launched on replicated security 
to be tremendously successful to

887
00:48:10,850 --> 00:48:14,050
actually make up for the initial
cost that it will generate. 

888
00:48:15,010 --> 00:48:18,720
Because there's a mismatch in 
time for when the cost and the 

889
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:22,880
revenue are materialized, right?
The cost starts from day one, 

890
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,920
whereas the revenue sort of like
gradually comes in, right. 

891
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,360
Like that can change with token 
allocations which can be pretty 

892
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,760
meaningful from the get go, but 
still. 

893
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,040
So that's that's the first 
argument. 

894
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,840
The second one being that 
because you need these change to

895
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,640
be tremendously successful and 
you want them to have as much 

896
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,600
synergy as possible and you want
to be betting on like the the, 

897
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,560
you know, the change of projects
that will move the needle the 

898
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,680
most. 
And so one of the scenarios that

899
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,040
could potentially be a losing 
scenario is to actually early on

900
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,600
at least establish competition 
within the Adam economic zone 

901
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,720
itself, right. 
Whereby instead of competing for

902
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,000
growing the pie of the Adam 
Economic Zone, the project would

903
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,960
be basically fighting for you 
know the whatever is available 

904
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,730
to them like Adam liquidity and 
such beyond them. 

905
00:49:09,730 --> 00:49:11,050
So like between themselves, 
right. 

906
00:49:11,050 --> 00:49:14,490
And that's that's sort of like 
negative AV for for everyone 

907
00:49:14,490 --> 00:49:17,570
involved. 
But if you know with that 

908
00:49:17,570 --> 00:49:20,930
strategic approach of like 
carefully vetting and being 

909
00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:24,050
selective of of projects 
initially before we have better 

910
00:49:24,050 --> 00:49:27,650
technology, better frameworks 
for assessing the economic value

911
00:49:27,650 --> 00:49:29,130
propositions of the various 
projects. 

912
00:49:30,010 --> 00:49:33,330
I think like the technology is a
tremendous potential, right. 

913
00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:39,770
And I I think that it does like 
having pioneered this has been I

914
00:49:39,770 --> 00:49:42,090
think very significant for 
Neutron as well. 

915
00:49:43,850 --> 00:49:46,570
So maybe like to to recap, 
right, like is it fair to say 

916
00:49:46,570 --> 00:49:52,490
that on a high level both 
Replicated Security, the Atom 

917
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:59,970
Economic Zone and Inca dot, they
are going after the the same 

918
00:49:59,970 --> 00:50:05,890
broad concept which is let's 
build a good validator set and 

919
00:50:05,890 --> 00:50:11,930
then get that validator set to. 
To to run multiple chains so 

920
00:50:12,370 --> 00:50:15,650
people can like kind of like 
launch their own chain and have 

921
00:50:15,650 --> 00:50:19,730
already a validator set that can
that can secure the chain easily

922
00:50:20,170 --> 00:50:24,850
on a high level. 
It's kind of aligned, but one of

923
00:50:24,850 --> 00:50:28,610
the big differences is that 
phone call dot came with the 

924
00:50:28,610 --> 00:50:33,010
design of a grand city right at 
the right at inception. 

925
00:50:33,010 --> 00:50:35,970
I mean, if you go back 2017, 
there's a. 

926
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,960
White paper detailing how that 
city will be built, how if you 

927
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,920
want to launch your own chain on
it, what's going to be the 

928
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,400
process, how is security going 
to work? 

929
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,080
And then kind of they started 
with the very detailed design of

930
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:59,400
the city and all of its suburbs.
And then then basically like in 

931
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,800
building the relay chain and the
para chain and the software 

932
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,330
there. 
They had the grand vision of the

933
00:51:07,330 --> 00:51:11,730
city and its suburbs already and
then they kind of tried to 

934
00:51:11,770 --> 00:51:14,850
optimize the decision of all of 
the subcomponents so that the 

935
00:51:14,930 --> 00:51:19,930
overall city and the kind of 
suburbs and also work well. 

936
00:51:19,930 --> 00:51:25,050
I think it like in their view, 
whereas sort of like what the 

937
00:51:25,050 --> 00:51:30,250
approach Cosmos Hub has taken is
more evolutionary, the first 

938
00:51:30,250 --> 00:51:33,410
kind of. 
Let's build a, let's build an 

939
00:51:33,410 --> 00:51:36,610
app chain, let's build map chain
and a framework to build app 

940
00:51:36,610 --> 00:51:39,530
chains. 
So that comes first and then 

941
00:51:39,890 --> 00:51:41,570
that's standard in Cosmos as the
case. 

942
00:51:41,570 --> 00:51:44,250
So that gets launched. 
Turns out that actually when 

943
00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:47,570
that launches, a lot of people 
want to build these app chains 

944
00:51:47,570 --> 00:51:51,370
and 50 or 70 of these spring up 
organically. 

945
00:51:52,290 --> 00:51:55,250
Then the next step is, OK, how 
do these app chains communicate?

946
00:51:55,250 --> 00:51:58,690
So that's IBC. 
And turns out many of these app 

947
00:51:58,690 --> 00:52:02,100
chains start to communicate. 
And now, kind of like the Cosmos

948
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:05,980
Hub is taking the third 
evolutionary step, which is OK, 

949
00:52:05,980 --> 00:52:10,580
how can you duplicate the 
validator set across across two 

950
00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:14,980
chains with the Cosmos Hub being
the provider of the validator 

951
00:52:14,980 --> 00:52:17,740
set and some other chain, 
Neutron in this case, be the 

952
00:52:17,740 --> 00:52:22,980
consumer at every step. 
It's kind of because it's 

953
00:52:23,020 --> 00:52:26,220
evolving kind of step by step. 
It has the messiness of 

954
00:52:26,220 --> 00:52:31,750
evolution where? 
Well the neutron kind of gets on

955
00:52:31,750 --> 00:52:33,510
boarded. 
What's the economic model for 

956
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:35,310
it? 
Nobody knows. 

957
00:52:35,390 --> 00:52:38,510
With the economic model end up 
centralizing the value you said.

958
00:52:39,110 --> 00:52:42,470
Nobody knows. 
It has the messiness of of 

959
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:45,270
evolution. 
But it potentially may have the 

960
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:50,510
benefits of evolution as well 
that we might the ecosystem 

961
00:52:50,510 --> 00:52:54,910
might end up discovering 
categories of solutions to 

962
00:52:54,910 --> 00:52:59,280
problems that. 
Centrally plant city may not 

963
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:04,160
have even considered. 
So you see that as kind of being

964
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,720
any good description. 
I think there's some truth to 

965
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:10,920
that. 
I mean, I would push back 

966
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,560
against, I don't think that's 
what you said, but I would push 

967
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,920
back against the notion that 
these things are happening sort 

968
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,400
of like just at random. 
Like we figured out that we 

969
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,800
needed to do this or like even 
like biological mutations right,

970
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,170
where it's like literally random
like that. 

971
00:53:26,170 --> 00:53:28,490
That's not the case. 
But you're right in that it has 

972
00:53:28,490 --> 00:53:32,050
been less of a centrally planned
long term vision that gets 

973
00:53:32,050 --> 00:53:35,370
executed where every component 
is optimized for the interest of

974
00:53:35,370 --> 00:53:38,250
the sort of like system as a 
whole and it's more of a 

975
00:53:38,530 --> 00:53:40,970
iterative process of like 
components themselves or like 

976
00:53:40,970 --> 00:53:43,730
conducting themselves and making
discoveries and improvement over

977
00:53:43,730 --> 00:53:45,570
time like this. 
I I I agree. 

978
00:53:45,570 --> 00:53:49,050
I think is actually closer to 
the Cosmos philosophy anyway And

979
00:53:49,050 --> 00:53:52,290
I think the one of the one of 
the benefits of that approach 

980
00:53:52,530 --> 00:53:55,980
like it's obvious the benefits 
of like the monolithic sort of 

981
00:53:55,980 --> 00:54:00,460
like vision getting executed, 
the benefits of those are 

982
00:54:00,460 --> 00:54:02,340
obvious. 
Like on the other hand the 

983
00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:05,900
benefits of like Cosmos approach
has been that it's a lot easier 

984
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:09,420
to actually on board because the
system itself imposes fewer 

985
00:54:09,420 --> 00:54:11,780
constraints over what you want 
to build, right. 

986
00:54:11,780 --> 00:54:15,700
And it's very difficult to plan 
ahead for everything that people

987
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:17,860
will want to build and how that 
will actually work. 

988
00:54:18,220 --> 00:54:22,980
And so by, you know, having a 
less, you know, systematized 

989
00:54:23,060 --> 00:54:27,460
mechanism and just building so 
like the tools that people can 

990
00:54:27,460 --> 00:54:29,060
then use to do whatever they 
want to do. 

991
00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:33,100
That has allowed Cosmos to be a 
lot easier to onboard on and fit

992
00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:36,980
into the grander scheme of the 
ecosystem than perhaps bulk cut 

993
00:54:36,980 --> 00:54:38,580
out has been. 
And I think that's true for 

994
00:54:38,580 --> 00:54:41,620
replicated security as well, 
right, whereby the the system to

995
00:54:41,620 --> 00:54:44,820
onboard to bulk cut out is very 
formal and that may you know 

996
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:48,960
work absolutely perfectly for 
specific types of projects or 

997
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,640
even on average be very 
consistent and sort of like 

998
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,000
efficient for the system as a 
whole. 

999
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:56,960
It may not actually work with 
some some chains, right Like for

1000
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,920
example, I think you know like 
one of the assumptions of the of

1001
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,480
the auction model of Olka dot is
that there will be significant 

1002
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,800
crowd enthusiasm for the project
because the crowd is what 

1003
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,000
usually has to actually 
bootstrap the amount of dot that

1004
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,440
is required to secure the slot, 
right. 

1005
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:18,150
But how about, let's say you 
know, a chain that does a very 

1006
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:22,790
niche but important piece of 
tooling or infrastructure for 

1007
00:55:22,790 --> 00:55:26,150
developers, right? 
Like, that's probably very 

1008
00:55:26,150 --> 00:55:28,870
useful for the Commons, but it's
actually very difficult to 

1009
00:55:28,870 --> 00:55:31,750
drive. 
So like, widespread enthusiasm 

1010
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:34,470
for that, right. 
So perhaps that would be kind of

1011
00:55:34,470 --> 00:55:37,190
like one of the limitations of 
the model cosmos have been 

1012
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:39,870
replicated. 
Security on the other hand are a

1013
00:55:39,870 --> 00:55:44,160
lot less formal and so that has 
obvious drawbacks of like it is 

1014
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,680
possible to do things that don't
actually make sense if we're not

1015
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,880
careful. 
But at the same time it does 

1016
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,680
also offer some flexibility 
whereby something that is purely

1017
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,040
in infrastructure play could 
still happen pretty easily as 

1018
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,480
long as it's as long as its 
value is justified to the 

1019
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,960
Commons, right. 
So sure that would be added cost

1020
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,200
to the system but if if the 
benefits of having that are 

1021
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,200
demonstrated then we can have it
basically that that's not a like

1022
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,250
sort of like economic blocker to
to get that into the into the 

1023
00:56:14,250 --> 00:56:15,810
overall system. 
So yeah, I would agree. 

1024
00:56:15,810 --> 00:56:18,530
I think like your your analogy 
is is pretty good actually. 

1025
00:56:19,090 --> 00:56:20,530
Right. 
Yeah, it's very interesting. 

1026
00:56:20,530 --> 00:56:25,490
And I think really only now many
people start to realize what it 

1027
00:56:25,490 --> 00:56:27,090
means. 
I think actually also from our 

1028
00:56:27,090 --> 00:56:30,010
side, right, we were once that 
like posted about these 

1029
00:56:30,210 --> 00:56:32,610
implications of running like 
these many chains. 

1030
00:56:32,610 --> 00:56:36,770
I think there's a lot to come in
terms of, you know, how are we 

1031
00:56:36,770 --> 00:56:38,530
gonna solve for that since I 
think. 

1032
00:56:39,470 --> 00:56:41,390
You know, there's also no clear 
path right now. 

1033
00:56:41,390 --> 00:56:44,390
How do you actually off board a 
consumer chain especially like 

1034
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:48,950
without a there is it is very 
clear how that works. 

1035
00:56:49,110 --> 00:56:52,190
It is very clear how that works.
There is there's I would say 

1036
00:56:52,190 --> 00:56:55,110
there's like sort of like 3 
layers of politeness that you 

1037
00:56:55,110 --> 00:56:57,630
can have in the of boarding of 
the chain. 

1038
00:56:58,510 --> 00:57:03,510
The base layer of politeness is 
not the issue here, which I 

1039
00:57:03,510 --> 00:57:05,630
wouldn't argue for, but it is 
technically possible. 

1040
00:57:05,630 --> 00:57:07,510
It's just just like any other 
Cosmos chain. 

1041
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:10,460
If a third of the voting power 
stops running that chain, then 

1042
00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:12,900
that chain just holds. 
But because the composition of 

1043
00:57:12,900 --> 00:57:15,860
its value that you said is 
dictated by the hub, there is no

1044
00:57:15,860 --> 00:57:19,980
way unless the composition of 
the hub changes that that chain 

1045
00:57:19,980 --> 00:57:23,100
will start running again, right.
So that's that's a pretty strong

1046
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:26,100
signal that hey we're not 
running your chain anymore. 

1047
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:28,500
Like you can fork it and become 
your own sovereign chain if you 

1048
00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:31,500
want, but but that's all right. 
In general that doesn't seem 

1049
00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:36,920
like a very good model to to 
follow because it you know, 

1050
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,200
there's like no protection here 
for the consumer chain. 

1051
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,600
And So what that means is that 
you know taking on that risk is,

1052
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,600
is going to be a barrier or 
hurdle to the adoption of ICS, 

1053
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,120
right. 
And ideally what you want ICS as

1054
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,840
a feature and as a sub ecosystem
that you can be a part of to be 

1055
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,720
as attractive as possible so 
that you end up having you know 

1056
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,240
really, really, really strong 
projects that you can select 

1057
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,600
into rather than having just 
like you know, whatever, 

1058
00:58:03,980 --> 00:58:06,900
whatever chain comes up and then
just being forced into selecting

1059
00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:09,140
these because otherwise there is
no demand for it for the future,

1060
00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:12,100
right. 
And so in general that that is 

1061
00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:15,340
probably not the right approach.
The, the second approach is the 

1062
00:58:15,340 --> 00:58:18,580
Cosmos Hub could just make a 
proposal, hey, we're going to 

1063
00:58:18,580 --> 00:58:21,980
terminate your replicated 
security lease, right. 

1064
00:58:22,340 --> 00:58:26,060
It has the benefit of being a 
little bit more formal and to 

1065
00:58:26,060 --> 00:58:28,580
have a little bit more time for 
the consumer chain project to 

1066
00:58:28,580 --> 00:58:31,940
adopt because you have this like
2 weeks period where like for 

1067
00:58:31,940 --> 00:58:34,230
the voting it is governance 
decided. 

1068
00:58:34,230 --> 00:58:37,670
So maybe it's going to get 
rejected, but it does send a 

1069
00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:40,830
strong signal. 
So it's already a lot more civil

1070
00:58:40,830 --> 00:58:44,230
let's say and it does give the 
project a little bit more chance

1071
00:58:44,230 --> 00:58:46,590
to be able to actually 
transition in time. 

1072
00:58:46,990 --> 00:58:50,190
Now still not ideal because it's
a very short timeline to be 

1073
00:58:50,190 --> 00:58:54,830
moving your entire security like
from from basically being leased

1074
00:58:54,910 --> 00:58:58,630
by another chain to being you 
know independent or sovereign. 

1075
00:58:59,390 --> 00:59:03,430
I think what's likely to be used
in practice, what I would argue 

1076
00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:07,190
for at least at this point is 
probably this needs to be done 

1077
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:09,190
by several proposals over a 
period of time. 

1078
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:13,470
Eg you know there's some like 
social consensus going on and if

1079
00:59:14,270 --> 00:59:17,990
you know the the the cosmos of 
social consensus sorts of reach 

1080
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:20,630
this tipping point where people 
are actually considering of 

1081
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:23,030
parting that consumer chain. 
They should make a signaling 

1082
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:26,950
proposal that says, hey if this 
proposal is accepted, then it 

1083
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:30,010
will trigger a three month 
period during which the consumer

1084
00:59:30,010 --> 00:59:33,570
chain should either come back 
with sort of amended security 

1085
00:59:34,170 --> 00:59:37,610
security agreement that might 
convince the Cosmos hub that 

1086
00:59:37,650 --> 00:59:41,930
actually it should stay on with 
these new terms, basically 

1087
00:59:41,930 --> 00:59:46,130
renegotiating the agreement or 
it will be terminated after 

1088
00:59:46,130 --> 00:59:49,890
another vote down the line that 
would actually be triggering the

1089
00:59:50,770 --> 00:59:52,370
removal of the consumer chain 
itself. 

1090
00:59:52,780 --> 00:59:55,220
And what that does is that the 
first word is a signaling 

1091
00:59:55,220 --> 00:59:57,980
proposal and it materializes 
social consensus so that what 

1092
00:59:58,060 --> 01:00:01,660
was Twitter noises and and 
conversations on Telegram become

1093
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:02,980
something that's actually 
measurable. 

1094
01:00:03,300 --> 01:00:07,540
Of the voting power of the 
Cosmos Hub, 65% think that that 

1095
01:00:07,540 --> 01:00:09,620
change should be aborted in 
three months unless they come 

1096
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:12,420
back with a better agreement. 
And then it gives the the 

1097
01:00:12,420 --> 01:00:15,340
consumer chain community a time 
to actually, you know, reflect 

1098
01:00:15,340 --> 01:00:17,460
upon this. 
Are there alternatives that 

1099
01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:20,100
would be better suited for the 
for the consumer chain? 

1100
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,040
Are there a way to salvage the 
relationship with the hub in a 

1101
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,840
way that is more mutually 
beneficial? 

1102
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,800
You know, should the changes 
become the sovereign up chain 

1103
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,800
secured by its own token, for 
example, And these like, it 

1104
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,240
gives at least enough time to 
consider these seriously and for

1105
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,040
a few governance proposals on 
that chain as well to to happen,

1106
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:38,680
right? 
And then you have the 

1107
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,360
confirmation vote that basically
sort of like signals it like 

1108
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,000
that sorts of like does the 
temperature check again. 

1109
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,250
But because there's so much time
in between, you know what like 

1110
01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:50,410
if the first proposal was 
triggered by something that is 

1111
01:00:50,410 --> 01:00:53,810
more emotional in nature or like
market conditions, then at least

1112
01:00:53,810 --> 01:00:56,130
you have some some time to 
recover from this before it 

1113
01:00:56,130 --> 01:00:58,210
actually leads to to drastic 
consequences. 

1114
01:00:58,490 --> 01:01:02,010
And the the overall process is a
lot more civil. 

1115
01:01:02,010 --> 01:01:05,290
So that if that's the sort of 
like commitment on the social 

1116
01:01:05,290 --> 01:01:07,690
layer of the Cosmos Hub, then 
consumer chain projects know 

1117
01:01:07,690 --> 01:01:09,690
that, you know, worst case 
scenario they'll they'll get 

1118
01:01:09,690 --> 01:01:12,410
that signal that, hey, they need
to sort their shit out or the 

1119
01:01:12,410 --> 01:01:15,610
Cosmos Hub is going to offboard 
them, but at least they'll have 

1120
01:01:15,610 --> 01:01:17,890
time, whatever happens to, to 
react to it. 

1121
01:01:19,450 --> 01:01:21,530
Yeah, I do. 
I do find it quite interesting 

1122
01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:25,330
that Cosmos have going like for 
this very governance based 

1123
01:01:25,370 --> 01:01:28,210
currently at least system and 
then polka dot is like sort of 

1124
01:01:28,210 --> 01:01:32,050
more a market based approach 
where you know you have that 

1125
01:01:32,050 --> 01:01:35,650
element of the dot being locked 
and so through that you sort of 

1126
01:01:35,650 --> 01:01:38,490
can signal these are the most 
valuable chains. 

1127
01:01:38,490 --> 01:01:40,930
Why we have limited slots? 
Let's fill them with the most 

1128
01:01:40,930 --> 01:01:44,100
valuable chains. 
And and you have that lease and 

1129
01:01:44,100 --> 01:01:49,340
it sort of takes away a lot of 
this governance overhead that is

1130
01:01:49,340 --> 01:01:54,420
coming right now for for Cosmos.
So quite interesting to see how 

1131
01:01:54,580 --> 01:01:55,980
that can be. 
I agree. 

1132
01:01:55,980 --> 01:01:58,580
But I think it's very 
characteristic of Cosmos though 

1133
01:01:58,660 --> 01:02:01,700
like you know Cosmos basically 
baked governance in every 

1134
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:03,660
suffering action that that 
actually launched into the 

1135
01:02:03,660 --> 01:02:06,140
ecosystem. 
And so you know that's that's 

1136
01:02:06,380 --> 01:02:10,820
like one of the design patterns 
left Cosmos I guess whereby you 

1137
01:02:10,820 --> 01:02:14,780
know people are not completely 
removed from these computers I 

1138
01:02:14,780 --> 01:02:22,340
guess. 
So try to get like a compare and

1139
01:02:22,340 --> 01:02:29,180
contrast with something that's 
harder, which is replicated 

1140
01:02:29,260 --> 01:02:33,660
security versus kind of like the
modular blockchain stack which 

1141
01:02:33,660 --> 01:02:36,100
is represented by Celestia and 
Etherium. 

1142
01:02:36,660 --> 01:02:39,100
Potentially like a harder 
comparison to make, but 

1143
01:02:39,100 --> 01:02:42,240
nonetheless interesting. 
I mean just to recap, the 

1144
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,600
modular stack is roughly the 
idea that you can think of what 

1145
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,600
a chain does and you can 
decompose it into data 

1146
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,080
availability, making sure 
transaction data is always 

1147
01:02:54,080 --> 01:03:00,360
available, sequencing or 
ordering where like transaction 

1148
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:06,080
A follows transaction B and then
kind of like logic and actual 

1149
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:13,850
blockchain and when you kind of.
Divide across these 

1150
01:03:13,850 --> 01:03:19,010
functionalities, you can have 
systems where one chain does one

1151
01:03:19,010 --> 01:03:22,610
part of the stack and another 
chain does another part of the 

1152
01:03:23,250 --> 01:03:25,650
stack. 
And both kind of like Etherium 

1153
01:03:25,650 --> 01:03:30,090
and Celestia kind of like going 
down this part that is kind of 

1154
01:03:30,330 --> 01:03:32,890
cosmos in replicated security, 
it's like. 

1155
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:37,160
Probably like very similar chain
designs and the entire validator

1156
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,600
set is shared. 
You know, like kind of compare 

1157
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,840
and contrast these two 
approaches and it's just 

1158
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:47,720
strengths and weaknesses. 
Yeah, I mean I think it's it's a

1159
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,520
really interesting sort of like 
turn of events. 

1160
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,520
I mean, when the Cosmos Decay 
was produced, it like the Cosmos

1161
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,840
Decay is software development 
kit that allows you to build 

1162
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,080
monolithic blockchains because 
like modular blockchains weren't

1163
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,700
a concept that was coined by 
Celestia later on at the time 

1164
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:08,140
that Cosmos was created. 
Right now there is some sort of 

1165
01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:12,140
modularity in spirit in the fact
that like the idea is that 

1166
01:04:12,460 --> 01:04:15,260
Cosmos can scale horizontally, 
right? 

1167
01:04:16,340 --> 01:04:21,060
But indeed, you don't get the 
sort of specialization and well,

1168
01:04:21,060 --> 01:04:23,580
you do get specialization, but 
not specialization of the 

1169
01:04:23,580 --> 01:04:26,780
performance specifically that 
you do get with like especially 

1170
01:04:26,780 --> 01:04:31,340
Celestia, which is purpose built
for modular blockchains I guess.

1171
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,320
And so that makes it a very 
interesting ecosystem. 

1172
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,480
But funnily enough, Celestia is 
actually part of the Cosmos 

1173
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,880
ecosystem as well, right? 
So it's sort of like an app 

1174
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:45,160
chain that specializes in being 
the base layer for other 

1175
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,520
blockchains to leverage their 
consensus and data availability.

1176
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,060
Now what I think is likely to 
happen is that like these 

1177
01:04:53,060 --> 01:04:54,620
solutions are actually not 
exclusive. 

1178
01:04:54,660 --> 01:04:57,340
We're already seeing a trend 
where numerous projects in 

1179
01:04:57,340 --> 01:05:01,780
Cosmos are working on bringing 
roll ups to the Cosmos stack. 

1180
01:05:02,260 --> 01:05:05,820
You have like Dimension for 
example, I believe they are sort

1181
01:05:05,820 --> 01:05:09,420
of like they're probably live or
soon to be live right now and 

1182
01:05:09,420 --> 01:05:12,380
they've sort of developed with 
the Cosmos SDK sort of like 

1183
01:05:12,820 --> 01:05:16,500
platform that intends to be a 
settlement layer for application

1184
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:20,220
specific roll ups, which is you 
know a very interesting idea. 

1185
01:05:20,980 --> 01:05:22,820
I know that there's a whole 
bunch of projects working on 

1186
01:05:22,820 --> 01:05:27,140
similar things in in the 
ecosystem and that has now even 

1187
01:05:27,140 --> 01:05:30,980
sort of like leaked into 
Ethereum ecosystem with the op 

1188
01:05:30,980 --> 01:05:32,860
stack and hyper chain from ZK 
Sync. 

1189
01:05:33,780 --> 01:05:37,580
So I think what's interesting 
here at the fundamental level is

1190
01:05:37,580 --> 01:05:42,340
that the idea that you can have 
one distributed computer like 

1191
01:05:42,420 --> 01:05:46,540
like 1 blockchain being tailored
for one specific application or 

1192
01:05:46,540 --> 01:05:50,100
use case is actually finding 
some traction here. 

1193
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:54,100
We're seeing this idea which 
mostly started in Cosmos kind of

1194
01:05:54,100 --> 01:05:57,900
like grow into other ecosystems 
and being adopted and 

1195
01:05:57,900 --> 01:06:00,740
implemented by various 
technological stacks Now. 

1196
01:06:01,820 --> 01:06:04,580
So that kind of like I think 
that's a validation of the 

1197
01:06:04,580 --> 01:06:07,740
thesis of the action thesis that
Cosmos kind of like has been 

1198
01:06:07,780 --> 01:06:10,940
riding on. 
But it's also like, I also do 

1199
01:06:10,940 --> 01:06:16,660
think that there's a trap that a
lot of folks in Cosmos consider 

1200
01:06:16,660 --> 01:06:19,260
that the action thesis is 
everything should be a Cosmos 

1201
01:06:19,260 --> 01:06:21,300
SDK app chain. 
I don't think that that's true. 

1202
01:06:21,380 --> 01:06:23,860
I do think that the app chain 
thesis in that there are 

1203
01:06:23,940 --> 01:06:28,580
significant benefits to be had 
by having infrastructure that is

1204
01:06:28,940 --> 01:06:33,500
dedicated to 1 application. 
I think that thesis is true, but

1205
01:06:33,500 --> 01:06:36,740
I think the fact that everything
should be a Cosmos SDK app chain

1206
01:06:37,100 --> 01:06:39,260
thus likes you to be proven 
false over time. 

1207
01:06:39,540 --> 01:06:41,900
And So what I think we're going 
to see in the ecosystem is that 

1208
01:06:41,900 --> 01:06:46,420
we're going to have so like an 
ibridation between like roll ups

1209
01:06:46,420 --> 01:06:50,310
and modular ideas with so like 
app change and horizontal 

1210
01:06:50,310 --> 01:06:52,470
scaling. 
The question interoperability 

1211
01:06:52,510 --> 01:06:54,950
technologies that Cosmos has has
born and such. 

1212
01:06:54,990 --> 01:07:00,110
And so I think sort of like to 
Zachy's point in a pretty famous

1213
01:07:00,110 --> 01:07:04,270
tweet now that he made a couple 
of weeks or months ago now he 

1214
01:07:04,270 --> 01:07:07,910
said something to the point of 
Cosmos Social Capital has about 

1215
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:10,590
12 months to do something unique
and differentiated before it 

1216
01:07:10,590 --> 01:07:13,750
gets swallowed by Ethereum 
variance of Cosmos ideas 

1217
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:15,910
essentially, right. 
And I think that's what we're 

1218
01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:18,570
seeing right now. 
We're seeing that the idea of an

1219
01:07:18,570 --> 01:07:21,370
app chain, eg dedicated 
blockchain for a dedicated 

1220
01:07:21,370 --> 01:07:24,970
application is actually now 
something that is being worked 

1221
01:07:24,970 --> 01:07:26,650
on outside of the boundaries of 
Cosmos. 

1222
01:07:27,010 --> 01:07:29,930
And that creates sort of an 
existential threat to Cosmos. 

1223
01:07:29,930 --> 01:07:33,770
Because now that idea that has 
been like very fundamental to 

1224
01:07:33,770 --> 01:07:37,930
its development process is not 
no longer exclusive to the 

1225
01:07:37,970 --> 01:07:41,370
ecosystem, but it also provides 
an opportunity because contrary 

1226
01:07:41,370 --> 01:07:44,290
to a lot of the other ecosystems
that are now implementing these,

1227
01:07:44,330 --> 01:07:47,620
these ideas, Cosmos has been 
working on this for a long time.

1228
01:07:47,620 --> 01:07:51,020
And so if it can, you know, 
leverage the existing work that 

1229
01:07:51,020 --> 01:07:54,500
it has completed with like IBC 
and such and make that sort of 

1230
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:58,140
like the most suitable standard 
for these new type of hybrid 

1231
01:07:58,140 --> 01:08:01,060
blockchains that we're seeing 
that then it has a great chance 

1232
01:08:01,060 --> 01:08:03,780
in my opinion to, you know, be 
successful at setting one of the

1233
01:08:03,780 --> 01:08:07,260
standards and therefore becoming
a much more relevant ecosystem 

1234
01:08:07,260 --> 01:08:10,220
to the entire industry. 
Essentially, yeah, I don't see 

1235
01:08:10,220 --> 01:08:12,380
them as exclusive. 
I think, I think they're kind of

1236
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:14,900
like really interesting trend in
the industry that are actually 

1237
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:17,069
complementary to sort of like 
something. 

1238
01:08:18,830 --> 01:08:19,910
All right. 
Super interesting. 

1239
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:22,630
We've been going quite deep into
interchange security, I think, 

1240
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:26,430
here and comparing it, But I 
think it's hopefully valuable to

1241
01:08:26,430 --> 01:08:30,310
people that are not as familiar.
And also very interesting to 

1242
01:08:30,310 --> 01:08:32,830
hear your viewpoints. 
And we can take it back a little

1243
01:08:32,830 --> 01:08:35,910
bit to neutral maybe and and 
cover like a few more things at 

1244
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:38,390
the at the end since we've been 
going quite for a while and then

1245
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:38,830
wrap up. 
So. 

1246
01:08:38,830 --> 01:08:42,390
And I think 1 interesting thing 
that we actually haven't really 

1247
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:47,260
talked about is then sort of. 
Neutron like token utility and 

1248
01:08:47,260 --> 01:08:50,140
kind of the the things you're 
doing around governance since 

1249
01:08:50,140 --> 01:08:55,060
now given your running as an 
interchange secure chain, right 

1250
01:08:55,060 --> 01:08:59,660
of the token model that Cosmos 
sort of established where you 

1251
01:08:59,660 --> 01:09:02,700
have the staking function and 
that sort of gives your token 

1252
01:09:02,700 --> 01:09:04,899
utility. 
You have to now come up with 

1253
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:08,140
like sort of another model, 
essentially similar to I guess 

1254
01:09:08,300 --> 01:09:10,859
the problems that exist on 
Ethereum already, where a lot of

1255
01:09:10,859 --> 01:09:13,260
the doubts just come up like, 
OK, there's a governance token, 

1256
01:09:13,260 --> 01:09:14,420
right? 
I think. 

1257
01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:18,370
You are also working like 
interesting things there with 

1258
01:09:18,410 --> 01:09:20,250
Neutron with the modular 
governance. 

1259
01:09:20,250 --> 01:09:22,210
So maybe we can talk a few 
minutes about that. 

1260
01:09:22,210 --> 01:09:27,490
Yeah, yeah, for sure. 
Like beyond just our interest in

1261
01:09:27,490 --> 01:09:30,170
in you know like playing around 
with the governance in general. 

1262
01:09:30,170 --> 01:09:33,930
The thing is like replicated 
security exists as I said of 

1263
01:09:33,930 --> 01:09:38,729
Cosmos SDK module that replace 
the modules that like outside of

1264
01:09:38,729 --> 01:09:42,050
replicated security are used for
staking and governance, right. 

1265
01:09:42,050 --> 01:09:44,930
So using replicated security 
removes both of these modules. 

1266
01:09:45,290 --> 01:09:49,050
So basically you have to as a 
consumer chain you have a few 

1267
01:09:49,050 --> 01:09:51,810
alternatives. 
One of them the sort of like the

1268
01:09:51,810 --> 01:09:55,490
default option that is proposed 
is usually to replace these by 

1269
01:09:55,530 --> 01:10:00,930
modules that essentially are 
staking pseudo governance system

1270
01:10:00,970 --> 01:10:04,530
like modules. 
Eg you're going to have a token 

1271
01:10:04,530 --> 01:10:07,730
that is not Atom, which is Atom 
would be used for staking on 

1272
01:10:07,730 --> 01:10:11,320
your chain anyway, but you would
have another token and that gets

1273
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,320
used to, you know, calculate 
voting power and you can 

1274
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:15,880
delegate it to governors. 
They're not validators actually,

1275
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,920
but they're governors and they 
they can, you know, wield voting

1276
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,640
power on your behalf. 
In the case of Neutron, it felt 

1277
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:29,360
less sort of logical to go that 
route given that you know the as

1278
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,200
a small contract platform. 
A lot of the innovation that 

1279
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,800
Neutral wanted to do was around 
empowering and leveraging the 

1280
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,320
modularity of of small 
contracts, right. 

1281
01:10:36,820 --> 01:10:40,060
And so instead what we did is we
used a lot of the great work 

1282
01:10:40,060 --> 01:10:43,980
that had been done by the Dow 
Dow team on, you know, like on 

1283
01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:46,420
building Dow infrastructure 
basically. 

1284
01:10:46,780 --> 01:10:50,180
And we baked it into the Genesis
file so that there's a set of 

1285
01:10:50,180 --> 01:10:52,700
small contracts that exist at 
Genesis that constitute this 

1286
01:10:52,980 --> 01:10:55,900
sort of like governance 
infrastructure and made it able 

1287
01:10:55,900 --> 01:10:58,020
to control the network 
parameters itself through 

1288
01:10:58,020 --> 01:10:59,380
something that's called the 
admin module. 

1289
01:10:59,420 --> 01:11:01,300
That's perhaps less interesting 
for this conversation. 

1290
01:11:01,820 --> 01:11:03,940
But so that you have like small 
contracts on the chain that 

1291
01:11:04,020 --> 01:11:07,580
govern the chain, eg they're 
able to trigger updates of the 

1292
01:11:07,580 --> 01:11:11,100
entire network, they're able to 
change network parameters extra 

1293
01:11:11,100 --> 01:11:14,100
extra. 
And the interesting thing about 

1294
01:11:14,100 --> 01:11:18,900
having been able to work with 
the doubt framework is that not 

1295
01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:23,700
only does this allow you to have
a functional decision making 

1296
01:11:23,700 --> 01:11:26,060
process, you can have like 
single proposals, multi choice 

1297
01:11:26,060 --> 01:11:28,500
proposals, you can have Turk 
inverting multi sig style 

1298
01:11:28,900 --> 01:11:31,540
things. 
So you can already sort of like 

1299
01:11:31,860 --> 01:11:35,660
customize the main chamber, but 
more importantly your system 

1300
01:11:35,660 --> 01:11:39,080
itself because there's like a 
library of code that can be 

1301
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:43,320
pulled by the main Dow at any 
time to instantiate new 

1302
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,040
committees, new chambers. 
You basically have a governance 

1303
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,080
system that is capable of like 
structuring itself. 

1304
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,840
So you have the Agora right, the
token voting assembly and then 

1305
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,920
that has the power of creating 
new subcommittees that are 

1306
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,480
dedicated to doing 111 task or 
the other. 

1307
01:11:56,480 --> 01:11:59,720
And they can have their own, you
know, like committee or like 

1308
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,560
voting system or selection 
mechanism, their own resources. 

1309
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:06,880
And the way that they execute 
changes to the rest of the chain

1310
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,920
can have customizable 
limitations. 

1311
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,640
Like for example, one idea for a
grant style would be that hey, 

1312
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:20,080
one person can give grants up to
$1000 freely and then 10, like, 

1313
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,560
sorry, two person can give 
grants together if they agree up

1314
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:25,720
to $10,000, right? 
So I like having these sort of 

1315
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,760
like customizable limits. 
And so that's one of the things 

1316
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,730
you could do in general though, 
one of the sort of like baseline

1317
01:12:32,730 --> 01:12:35,970
limitations that we've created 
that can be instantiated by that

1318
01:12:36,130 --> 01:12:39,730
Agora is essentially when the 
sub dial is created, it has a 

1319
01:12:39,730 --> 01:12:43,250
time lock module which is so 
that when the sub dial makes a 

1320
01:12:43,250 --> 01:12:47,010
decision through a vote before 
that like, which can be pretty 

1321
01:12:47,010 --> 01:12:49,530
fast with their two main DAO 
governance proposals, like 

1322
01:12:49,530 --> 01:12:52,290
that's a matter of a few hours 
or days depending on the 

1323
01:12:52,290 --> 01:12:55,890
reactivity of the members when 
that gets approved. 

1324
01:12:55,890 --> 01:12:59,260
If that gets approved, it's time
lock for three days and it can 

1325
01:12:59,260 --> 01:13:01,460
be basically vetoed by the main 
DAO. 

1326
01:13:01,500 --> 01:13:04,540
And So what that means is that 
you can now have systems that 

1327
01:13:04,540 --> 01:13:07,380
are either, you know, like very 
large committees or Multis or 

1328
01:13:07,380 --> 01:13:12,700
stuff that is more akin to 
multisec that is independent 

1329
01:13:12,700 --> 01:13:15,060
from the main DAO but still 
accountable to the main DAO. 

1330
01:13:15,060 --> 01:13:17,900
And if you know, they betrayed 
the main DAO, essentially 

1331
01:13:18,220 --> 01:13:20,860
they're not aligned. 
The main DA has mechanism to 

1332
01:13:20,860 --> 01:13:24,180
force them to fall back on the 
main governor's track so that 

1333
01:13:24,180 --> 01:13:27,520
decisions that are, you know, 
negative to the network cannot 

1334
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:32,840
be executed without, you know, a
significantly higher lift of 

1335
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:34,680
just like capturing the 
governance system itself. 

1336
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:39,120
Right, right. 
I can hear a lot of the kind of 

1337
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:42,320
ideas or concepts that exist in 
light or actually here, right, 

1338
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:46,000
like with the Lego and and some 
of the the things that are 

1339
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,720
actually much harder I would say
probably to do in Ethereum 

1340
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:53,520
because you don't have that the 
customizability of Cosmos app 

1341
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:55,360
chain. 
So I think very exciting. 

1342
01:13:55,980 --> 01:13:58,900
To have like things more 
codified in Neutron here that 

1343
01:13:58,900 --> 01:14:03,100
are maybe like more on the 
social layer essentially in in 

1344
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:06,340
Lido I guess. 
So yeah, really excited to see 

1345
01:14:06,340 --> 01:14:10,580
where that's going. 
I think we covered a bunch of 

1346
01:14:10,580 --> 01:14:13,140
stuff. 
I hope we did justice to to 

1347
01:14:13,140 --> 01:14:14,940
Neutron. 
We did definitely talk about a 

1348
01:14:14,940 --> 01:14:17,420
lot of like higher level things,
but I think you're you're the 

1349
01:14:17,420 --> 01:14:19,740
right person to do that. 
So I've been going for quite a 

1350
01:14:19,740 --> 01:14:21,620
while. 
So I think we were at a good 

1351
01:14:21,620 --> 01:14:27,540
spot to to wrap up maybe. 
For final question and you can 

1352
01:14:27,780 --> 01:14:32,660
talk a little bit about your 
roadmap, sort of the ecosystem 

1353
01:14:32,660 --> 01:14:35,380
things you're doing. 
There's been recent announcement

1354
01:14:35,380 --> 01:14:38,340
around this accelerator. 
Maybe you can talk a little bit 

1355
01:14:38,340 --> 01:14:43,620
about that and then we wrap up. 
So from my side, yeah, thanks so

1356
01:14:43,620 --> 01:14:43,940
much. 
Sure. 

1357
01:14:43,980 --> 01:14:47,060
Let's wrap up all this, 
actually, yeah. 

1358
01:14:47,260 --> 01:14:48,620
I mean, once again, thanks for 
having me. 

1359
01:14:48,620 --> 01:14:50,940
This was a really fun 
conversation to have. 

1360
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:55,820
So yeah, I guess like one, one 
last sort of like announcement 

1361
01:14:55,820 --> 01:14:58,100
or whatever. 
You know, we talked during this 

1362
01:14:58,100 --> 01:15:01,220
this episode a lot about like 
the structure replicated 

1363
01:15:01,220 --> 01:15:04,660
security and and how it creates 
kind of like a sub ecosystem 

1364
01:15:04,660 --> 01:15:07,580
that benefits from being very 
deeply aligned and 

1365
01:15:07,580 --> 01:15:10,620
collaborative. 
That's something that we believe

1366
01:15:10,620 --> 01:15:13,300
has really the potential to be 
tremendously valuable for both 

1367
01:15:13,300 --> 01:15:14,900
the Cosmos hub and the consumer 
chains. 

1368
01:15:15,620 --> 01:15:19,190
And so in an effort to sort of 
like further this that we've 

1369
01:15:19,230 --> 01:15:24,030
teamed up with long Hash but 
also the atom Accelerator Dow in

1370
01:15:24,030 --> 01:15:28,110
order to launch an accelerator 
program that is dedicated to 

1371
01:15:28,110 --> 01:15:32,790
that set ecosystem, right. 
So that we can bring like we can

1372
01:15:32,790 --> 01:15:35,910
nurture teams that are building 
projects either as additional 

1373
01:15:35,910 --> 01:15:39,510
consumer chains or that are 
building on Neutron to join the 

1374
01:15:39,510 --> 01:15:43,270
atom and convex zone and provide
them with funding experience. 

1375
01:15:43,270 --> 01:15:46,030
You know like like scaffolding 
in their sort of like 

1376
01:15:46,150 --> 01:15:49,390
development and strategy so that
you know they get the best 

1377
01:15:49,390 --> 01:15:53,110
chances of hitting the market in
a in a really good shape and 

1378
01:15:53,110 --> 01:15:56,070
being very successful. 
So if that's interesting to you 

1379
01:15:56,590 --> 01:16:00,870
check out you know Neutron or 
Long Ash or Adam Exlorator, 

1380
01:16:00,870 --> 01:16:02,910
Dow's Twitter and blog and 
blogs. 

1381
01:16:03,150 --> 01:16:06,390
You'll find the links to how to 
register there, how to learn 

1382
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:10,150
more about the project and such.
I think I'm, you know I think it

1383
01:16:10,150 --> 01:16:12,790
has a good chance of being 
pretty pretty awesome for the 

1384
01:16:12,790 --> 01:16:15,060
ecosystem. 
Thanks for giving me the 

1385
01:16:15,060 --> 01:16:18,620
appreciate you plays that shell 
here at the end you know. 

1386
01:16:21,100 --> 01:16:19,940
All right. 
Yeah, very. 

1387
01:16:21,460 --> 01:16:22,580
Yeah. 
Thanks everybody for coming on. 

1388
01:16:22,580 --> 01:16:26,460
And yeah, hope all listeners 
enjoy this this breakdown of 

1389
01:16:26,460 --> 01:16:29,980
interchange theory and then 
learn more about Neutron in the 

1390
01:16:29,980 --> 01:16:32,340
show notes. 
Awesome. 

1391
01:16:32,700 --> 01:16:34,220
Thanks folks. 
Thanks for the great questions 

1392
01:16:34,220 --> 01:16:37,740
as well. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1393
01:16:37,740 --> 01:16:40,130
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1394
01:16:40,130 --> 01:16:42,130
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1395
01:16:42,130 --> 01:16:45,930
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1396
01:16:45,930 --> 01:16:48,330
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01:16:48,330 --> 01:16:50,480
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You can tell it to listen to the

1398
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:53,960
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1399
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:56,560
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1400
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:58,400
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1401
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1402
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01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,680
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01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:08,560
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1405
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:10,120
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1406
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:11,480
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1407
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:14,880
So thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.

1408
01:17:19,480 --> 01:17:22,680
I want to do it.