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This is epicenter episode 340 
with guest Daniel Wang. 

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Hi, welcome to epicenter. 
My name is Sebastian cuchillo 

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today, our guest is Daniel Wang.
He is the founder and CEO of 

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loop ring. 
Loop ring is a decentralized 

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trading platform, which makes 
use of ZK Roll-Ups to achieve 

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impressive transaction 
throughput on chain. 

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So if you want to learn more 
about ZK Roll-Ups, you should 

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definitely go back and Listen to
her episodes where we've talked 

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about these Technologies. 
So there was episode 310 with 

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elements of saint of Stark where
or our recent interview with Jin

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Ling Wang and Carl flourished at
sex 03:36 where we talked about 

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optimistic Roll-Ups, a few 
things to know about Loop ring. 

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It is an order book based 
exchange which sets it apart 

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from protocols like Eunice 
Whoppers of gnosis protocol. 

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However, the order book is 
centralized it's non-custodial 

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though which means that users 
can claim ownership of their 

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tokens at any point. 
Like I said, it leverages ZK 

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Roll-Ups to achieve scaling on 
ethereum and loop bring claims 

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that they can achieve over 2,000
transactions per second on 

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chain. 
And they have a strong focus on 

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the Chinese market, which is 
where the team is based sunny 

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and Federica that this interview
and in the days after the 

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recorded this in early, May a 
security vulnerability was 

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identified by the star core team
and report it to the loop bring 

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team, the post detailing that 
bug are linked in the show 

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notes, the vulnerability, In the
wallet front end. 

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And as far as we know the smart 
contract code was not at fault. 

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So, in short the wallet, 
generates a key pair to conduct 

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snark related operations, and 
these keys were generated in 32 

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bits space, which is quite 
insecure because one could 

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compute all of the possible 
account keys in the system. 

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Daniel mentions in the interview
that they audit every new 

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release. 
But I wonder how this sort of 

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thing could possibly be missed. 
Perhaps the front end wallet 

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wasn't part of that audit. 
In any case, Case, once again, I

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think this shows the fragility 
of defy infrastructure. 

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I don't know how we get around 
this, but every so often a 

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vulnerability is discovered or a
defy protocol gets attacked and 

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if trillions of dollars of 
financial value, our 21 Day, 

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live on defy, the ecosystem 
needs to be much, much better at

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security. 
Here's what you'll learn in this

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interview, Daniels background 
and how he became involved. 

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Grip toe loop Rings, 2017 token 
sale, and why they needed to 

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Current funds to investors the 
concept of ring matching which 

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existed in the early Loop ring 
protocol, loopings, use of ZK 

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Roll-Ups to achieve scalability,
current throughput, and 

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transaction costs Loop ring 
compared to buy Nance, and other

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centralized exchanges. 
Why they chose to build on a 

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centralized order book model, 
the difference between 

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optimistic roll up and ZK 
Roll-Ups, the loop ring token 

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lrc and how it's used in the 
protocol. 

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And Daniel's views on the future
of the decks ecosystem, just a 

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few housekeeping items. 
I am participating in to 

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conferences, in June, from June 
1st, to June 3rd, May net is 

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happening in Maine. 
That is a conference organized 

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by Masari. 
And on June 2nd, I am really 

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excited to moderate a fireside 
chat with Joe Lubin of 

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consensus. 
And Danny Ryan of the theorem 

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Foundation. 
As this comes out, you can still

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get your early bird tickets. 
For the next two days, they're 

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only 50 bucks. 
Yeah, thanks really worth it. 

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It's going to be a great 
conference head over to main net

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dot events for all the details. 
And then a few days later, I am 

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going to be moderating, a panel 
at the web 34, mm, which is part

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of COG X. 
That's from June 8th, to June 

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10th, and we're still putting 
the panel together, but it will 

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be on the topic of Freedom, 
versus Civic duties. 

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So that should be a lot of fun. 
And once the panel is officially

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announced and on the website, 
I'll let everybody know. 

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So you can register for that 
conference at wed 34mm dot-org. 

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Last week, I made a plea to all 
of you to give us more iTunes 

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reviews. 
Well, you have come through and 

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answered my plea. 
We receive a handful of new 

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reviews, which is really great, 
really excited to see them 

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coming in. 
I have a little slack 

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notification. 
Get new reviews and every time 

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that thing Rings. 
Unlike and you review and I go 

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read it. 
So thank you to those who left 

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this review. 
If you haven't left us an apple 

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podcast review, please do so 
please. 

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Take two minutes. 
Going to your Apple podcast app 

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on your Mac or on your phone and
just leave us a review. 

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Tell us what you think of the 
podcast, how long you been 

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listening? 
What you've learned your 

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favorite guests, it can 
sometimes be difficult to think 

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about what you want to write in 
a review. 

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You can write But all these 
things. 

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So yeah, I would really 
appreciate it if more of you 

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would leave us reviews and you 
can do so really easily by going

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to epicenter, got rocks /, 
apple, and that takes you right 

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to the page. 
And as a gift, as a small token 

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of my appreciation for leaving 
us an iTunes review, I'll give 

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you a discount code for a free 
key. 

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Key hardware wallet, just send 
me an e-mail. 

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Sebastian at epicenter dot TV. 
Tell me like, hey I left you 

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review and I will send you a 
discount code for 100 percent 

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off. 
On your keep, your Hardware 

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wallet. 
So, for the last couple weeks 

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I've been telling you about 
least Authority and they had a 

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webinar in late April to educate
people about security Audits and

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what that could mean for your 
project, well that webinar is 

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now available on their YouTube 
channel and on the website if 

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you'd like to take a look at it 
and it's been really great to 

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work with them because there's 
such a mission-driven team and 

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they're working on 
privacy-preserving Technologies.

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And their latest project is one 
that I find really interesting. 

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It's called Z Caps or zero 
knowledge access passes. 

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Now I'm not going to go into 
detail about how that works 

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under the hood because I 
probably wouldn't be able to do 

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a very good job but I'll tell 
you what they do. 

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So your knowledge access passes 
allow developers to create 

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Services where the payment data 
is disconnected from the 

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customer data or the service 
data. 

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So let's say you're running a 
password manager application and

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your customer data is encrypted 
on your servers by Zeke apps you

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could allow for customers to use
that service effectively take 

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credit card payment for that 
service and you issue a token. 

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And this is a zero-knowledge 
token that they can then use to 

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access the service but you don't
know which token is used with 

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which account so effectively you
disconnect the service data from

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the customer data. 
So it opens up. 

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Lots of possibilities for 
companies to provide even more 

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privacy to their customers and 
perhaps, Even censorship 

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resistant because there's no way
for you. 

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The service provider to connect 
the payment data and the 

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customer. 
Dave, these are the kinds of 

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privacy-preserving technologies 
that least Authority or working 

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on. 
And if you want to know more 

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about C caps, go to least 
Authority.com / C caps, that's Z

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Ka. 
PS. 

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And with that, here's our 
interview with Daniel Wang. 

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So we're on today with Daniel 
Wang, who is the CEO and founder

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of loop ring. 
So, Dana was great to have you 

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on. 
Could you tell us a little bit 

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about your background and how 
you got involved in this space? 

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So I have a technical 
background, I graduated from 

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University of Science and 
Technology of China. 

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And then I got my master from 
Arizona State University after 

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that, I had been working for 
Google for Or Chinese e-commerce

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company called JD.com. 
So basically just working on the

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backend systems back in 2013, I 
purchased my first fake coin 

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after reading their wet papers, 
I got this news from the CCT 

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way, you know, the Chinese 
Central television pretty big TV

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in China, they covered Bitcoin a
little bit so I got a really 

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interested in that Imani 
concept. 

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So I read a the white paper X3 
times that night. 

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And then the next morning, I 
purchase a coin, I still have 

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those Bitcoin in my wallet. 
Then I talked to a VC say, you 

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know, the Bitcoin is really 
fascinating. 

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I want to create a centralized 
exchange at that time. 

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It was not called centralized 
exchange, it's just crypto 

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exchange and then I raised the 
about two million u.s. dollars 

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and I launched the small 
exchange where people can treat 

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Bitcoin some other altcoins like
moss. 

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Stir coin repo as well, but the 
platform really didn't go. 

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Well, we have a really terrible 
period of time where Bitcoin the

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prices collapsed. 
So I closed the company. 

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I joined another high-tech 
company called joann.com which 

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is an insurance company. 
So internally, we use blockchain

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technology to do some internal 
cool stuff, but I don't really 

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enjoy time, you know, working 
with corporations, so in 2017, I

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think maybe it's time for me to,
you know, start using etherium 

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or smart contract to build 
something cool. 

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Something really to trading, by 
the way, I'm one of the early 

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investors in etherium, I still 
see how those easier as well. 

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So basically I my career Stars 
crypto career starts from buying

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Bitcoins and then invest in 
Easter and build centralized 

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exchange and then the desert 
decentralized exchange. 

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So that's Where, you know, I 
started the crypto life what 

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made you transition from the 
concept of a centralized 

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exchange to a decentralized 
exchange. 

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People are talking about 
security but at that time really

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is the pinpoint is to maintain a
centralized exchange is the 

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continuous worrying about your 
capability of. 

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Keep the users asset secure 
because you don't want to wake 

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up in the morning and then 
suddenly realize out asset are 

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gone. 
And then you have You know, take

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hold accountable for everything 
happened. 

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We consider from our own former 
operational perspective. 

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We don't want to have that 
pressure to work against hikers 

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because, you know, you have to 
invest a lot of money into the 

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infrastructure to make sure the 
security of your exchange is 

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good enough. 
Security is from my perspective 

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is always tight with cost. 
I think it's still true for many

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centralized exchanges and then 
Then we also need to consider 

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from the users perspective. 
Most crypto exchanges, 

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especially those, you know, back
in 2014, 13. 

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They're not regulated at all. 
So if as a user, your asset got 

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stolen from a centralized 
exchange, there's nothing you 

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can do. 
You can just complain with the 

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operators of the exchange and no
more, the eyes are gone. 

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And, you know, that's the final 
ending of your story. 

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So, I think maybe we can use 
Smart contract. 

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Do something that hiker cannot 
You know, steal from exchanges. 

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So, you know, back in 2016. 
I think early 2017, we had this 

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idea of looping for make sure, 
you know, some work can be still

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done of chain, but the 
settlement part especially, you 

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know, the fund movement between 
different users can be done 

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unchain. 
So, I think our project is a 

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little bit later than 0 x. 
And then at that time, people 

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are talking about this concept 
of peace and Relax exchange. 

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So I think in general security 
is something we really want to 

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achieve to make sure. 
You know people. 

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They use blockchain a Smart 
contract Technologies to treat 

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some I said that are backed by 
those Technologies as well. 

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I always say this is it Raonic 
to say, you believe in 

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blockchain technology about you 
have to treat functionalized 

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exchanges which the traditional 
technology that just means the 

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blockchain. 
Technology is not that ready 

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yet, right? 
So, Need to figure out a way to 

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push this technology further to 
make sure it's usable. 

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First for our crypto holders 
ourselves, not to just talk to 

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some industry to say, hey I want
to revolutionize your industry 

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by this cool technology. 
Right. 

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We have to solve our own 
problems first. 

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So that's why I focused on each 
change instead of other 

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applications. 
We are deep dive into this in a 

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bit. 
Let's just get the rest of Your 

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back story on tape. 
So basically, you, you actually 

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did a token sale in 2017. 
Just before China actually had 

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this blanket ban on icos and you
were actually forced to refund 

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most of your Ico proceeds. 
Correct. 

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So tell us about that time. 
That must have been crazy. 

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Well, it's a story really, I 
will recall many times during my

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life. 
So we did the do I co back in 

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2017, I think in June, or July? 
I'm looking at only had like 

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three or four full-time personal
we raised 120,000 ether. 

228
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,500
We didn't really expect that 
many. 

229
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:45,500
We set a hard cap. 
So after that nobody can get 

230
00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:48,800
more money there. 
And we reached that hard cap. 

231
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,900
I think we are also one of the 
first projects who performed the

232
00:13:53,908 --> 00:13:57,000
Ico using smart contract. 
So we didn't really have any 

233
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,700
platform to use. 
We're at a smart contract. 

234
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:04,200
We have a one-page website and 
people I can just check the the 

235
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,600
tokens they received and how 
many tokens are still there for 

236
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,600
sale. 
I think that experience is 

237
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,000
pretty cool. 
It makes me feel, you know, in 

238
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,100
the future maybe fundraising can
be as simple as what we have 

239
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:18,900
done. 
But later on, you know, people 

240
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:23,500
have gone to another approach 
using some big platforms like 

241
00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:26,600
Finance to raise money, I think 
it makes more sense because 

242
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,300
there are more users, but I 
think with our Pros, you know 

243
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:33,800
it's just very cool one week 
after the Close of the Ico. 

244
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:37,400
We got the notification from 
Regulators. 

245
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,600
Say you have to refund and I was
told my name is on the list, 

246
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,700
like a two-page list of people 
who have conducted Ico. 

247
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:50,200
And if I didn't do the refund, 
then I will be in serious 

248
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,400
trouble. 
I cannot leave the country. 

249
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,100
I cannot do blah, blah. 
You know, a lot of things. 

250
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,000
I was really terrified to be 
honest. 

251
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,700
I actually individual in China 
and if you get that kind of like

252
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:05,200
a pressure from The government, 
you will have the pressure, it's

253
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,100
not like in other countries, you
can hire a lawyer. 

254
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,700
There's no way you can fight 
back you how to be responsible 

255
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:14,700
for that? 
So as I okay, I don't want to be

256
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:18,200
put into jail. 
I don't want my staff to be put 

257
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,500
into jail. 
So, let's do the refund, right. 

258
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,000
So, we how to write another 
smart contract. 

259
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,700
We how to tell our media friends
to say, hey, we want to refine 

260
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,100
just how as many people as 
possible. 

261
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,000
So, we collect the token and 
then we At least The Ether back 

262
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,800
to many users I think is 80% or 
something like that or 70%. 

263
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,200
I cannot recall exactly. 
The users have to trigger this. 

264
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:46,700
So did they actually have to 
send back the lrc tokens to you 

265
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:51,500
and they were then refunded? 
Their ether, the most cases. 

266
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,200
Yes, but there are some cases 
where it's not an individual's 

267
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,800
is some small companies who 
helped us to do the marketing 

268
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,100
and we have to fight with fact 
them to get the token back. 

269
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,900
They would don't want to give 
the token bag. 

270
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,500
They just want to hold the token
as and in the meanwhile, they 

271
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:12,300
want to get the money back. 
So there are some Backpack, you 

272
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:16,600
know, some fighting's between 
those Partners but most people, 

273
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,000
most individuals will just give 
back the token and then get the 

274
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,900
easier back. 
We also rewarded some 

275
00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:27,900
individuals who helped us to 
coordinate the process so we 

276
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:31,100
didn't ask everything back but 
in general having a large 

277
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,600
portion of our tokens are 
returned. 

278
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,700
And as a result we returned 
about 70 to 80% of the Deezer. 

279
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:43,000
I think most people who didn't 
really Lee written easier as you

280
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,500
individuals are from countries 
outside of China. 

281
00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:50,300
So they are not Chinese. 
So they not scared by the media.

282
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,100
Right now, I think it's a lock 
for us. 

283
00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:56,600
Otherwise, this blueprint 
project will certainly go down 

284
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000
at that time. 
We just finalized one idea in 

285
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,000
terms of operation and 
marketing, we don't want to 

286
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,599
spend those as much money as 
other project team will do a 

287
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,800
marketing. 
So most money are spent in D. 

288
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:14,800
I think that's why you will hear
some people say. 

289
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,000
Hey why do print doesn't really 
do any marketing or stuff like 

290
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,800
that? 
And people say, hey why don't 

291
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,000
you? 
It's better those people in 

292
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,500
China will say, why don't you 
pump your price? 

293
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,500
And then do something right? 
We have been holding this 

294
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,700
talking for so long and you 
every time you have you just 

295
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:33,700
talked about, you have a new 
version. 

296
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,100
You have a new feature. 
We really don't care. 

297
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:39,900
We just care about a price. 
So that's the fact in China, 

298
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:42,700
most people are speculating, 
Thursday really don't believe in

299
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,800
anything. 
So making a profit is the most 

300
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,300
important thing. 
This is a pressure for us during

301
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:52,800
the last two years. 
I get that sense too. 

302
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,600
That like you know there's sort 
of very few technically focused 

303
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,000
legitimate process coming out of
China. 

304
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,600
I think you guys are definitely 
one of them. 

305
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000
Let's jump in on till the some 
of the details of the product. 

306
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,100
So first question would be, why 
did you guys decide to build 

307
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:10,800
sort of a decks protocol? 
So why not instead of like it's 

308
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,400
going out and building a decks? 
Why take sort of the more 0x 

309
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,500
like approach and build a 
platform for dex's The first two

310
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:24,600
versions of routing protocol is 
really similar to 0ax. 

311
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,500
The one huge difference is that 
we have this concept of ring 

312
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:34,500
matching where 0 x only has like
two other matching, right? 

313
00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:38,300
So this ring matching is a 
distinct feature that we offered

314
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:41,800
but besides that there's no 
difference between those two 

315
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,000
projects. 
Could you describe a little bit 

316
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,700
about what ring matching is? 
In a traditional trading pair, 

317
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,100
you have two tokens a swapping 
with each other. 

318
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:56,000
Right? 
With this ring matching in our 

319
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,300
implementation, we can have up 
to 16 different tokens of 16, 

320
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:05,300
different accounts they can, you
know, swap tokens in a ring, 

321
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:08,100
right? 
So people can all the relayer 

322
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:13,200
can look into different markets 
and to achieve these arbitrators

323
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:17,400
in one Atomic operation. 
So, Let's say Alice and Bob and 

324
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,100
Charlie these three person can 
be put into one ring so that 

325
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,900
they can do swap in as am 
operations. 

326
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,900
There's you don't have to do 
like two traits or three trees. 

327
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,900
So like Alice wants to buy 
Bitcoin. 

328
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000
Yeah. 
Bob wants to buy ether and 

329
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,300
Charlie wants to buy Litecoin 
and know. 

330
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,100
Maybe they're not selling what 
so you can plan and make a 

331
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:40,600
triangle trade. 
Exactly. 

332
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,800
That will be effective. 
It has to Arbitrage righteous 

333
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:48,700
very much like arbitrators the 
Outside of that is the matching 

334
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:52,900
is really complicated. 
Is it would take more time to 

335
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:56,400
find the best deal. 
When the number of participants 

336
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,200
increase in the ring, is it like
some sort of np-complete 

337
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,200
problem? 
I'm not good at that theory. 

338
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,300
So I'm not sure about that, but 
the time should be exponential. 

339
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,700
It's an np-hard problem. 
All right, thank you for that. 

340
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:16,000
I didn't know that. 
So later, I we limited The 

341
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,700
number of participants into 8, 
is that of 16 didn't really 

342
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:24,900
support that ring matching in 
production because a backhand or

343
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,700
the relay, er, Team really. 
Has a different time to find a 

344
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:29,700
good real go for to support 
that. 

345
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:33,900
That feature really didn't 
justify grouping as a 

346
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,300
independent separate protocol, 
right? 

347
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,400
So we should do something 
different to make sure lubricant

348
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,800
can still survive. 
So that's the Chinese. 

349
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,600
We had like two years ago or one
year and a Right now, we have 

350
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,900
the third version of the routing
protocol and the ring matching 

351
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:54,600
is totally gone from this 
version, because it's not 

352
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,400
something we want to achieve, 
but we keep the project name 

353
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,700
there. 
In principle, The Ring matching 

354
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:05,100
is a very powerful concept and 
that it kind of pulls your 

355
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:07,600
liquidity across different token
path. 

356
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,600
So basically especially in a 
world where there isn't one 

357
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,900
dominant trading partner. 
So for instance in a world where

358
00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:15,900
you have many different stable 
coins. 

359
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,700
For instance, this ring matching
is super powerful so do you 

360
00:21:19,708 --> 00:21:22,500
intend on picking up on this 
eventually again? 

361
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:24,400
Or do you think it's just given 
up on it? 

362
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,000
I think we are going to give up 
on that and I do agree for a 

363
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,700
staple clients. 
This ring matching really will 

364
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:37,300
bring a lot of value especially 
when the trading volume is going

365
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,900
to be huge. 
So that application I think is 

366
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:44,100
still very usable. 
The reason we want to give up 

367
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:48,200
the ring matching is because in 
terms of zero, knowledge proof, 

368
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,600
there's really no way to 
implement the ring matching 

369
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,400
because we need a lot more 
constraints than Those can be 

370
00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,000
supported by etherium. 
So technically we cannot support

371
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:03,700
ring matching more than maybe, 
three or four participants in 

372
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,400
the ring. 
So we gave up that because we 

373
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,000
ran out, I just focusing on your
knowledge proof based solution. 

374
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:13,600
Now, to using smart contract, a 
lot on chin. 

375
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,800
What was the problem that ring 
matching was trying to solve? 

376
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,300
It seems to me that most 
exchanges even decentralized 

377
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,800
exchanges. 
Usually take an approach where 

378
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,500
they use like Straight A so for 
even you to shop. 

379
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:32,000
For example, if you require all 
markets to use ether as a base 

380
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,100
trench, a somewhat solve this 
fragmented, liquidity problem. 

381
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:40,600
You know, it has this higher 
overhead of people may have to 

382
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,700
do two trades instead of one. 
But why did you decide that? 

383
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:46,600
You know, ring matching was 
something that needed to be 

384
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,400
done? 
And why would you think it was 

385
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,700
sort of superior over just the 
base trading pair of model? 

386
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:58,100
Back in 2017, we think the ring 
matching may help user to find 

387
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:00,600
the best deal. 
If you don't support ring 

388
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,900
matching is not the user who 
will benefit from best price is 

389
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:07,000
the Arbiter. 
The people who do the 

390
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,100
arbitrators who will get the 
best there, get the differences 

391
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:14,400
between the best price and the 
price that the normal user can 

392
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,300
get from The Exchange. 
So if a centralized exchange can

393
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:22,200
support ring matching, then the 
user will certainly benefit from

394
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,600
that. 
Reality most centralized 

395
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,700
exchange don't do that because 
it's going to make the system 

396
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,300
more complicated. 
It can output match engine as 

397
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:36,600
per trading pair, right? 
At they have to consider all the

398
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,500
Liquidators across treating 
pairs into one, huge, liquidity 

399
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,500
pool, and then make sure they 
can find the best ring among up 

400
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,600
to hundreds of treating pairs. 
That's a problem. 

401
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,400
The is not going to bring more 
benefit to. 

402
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:56,200
To The Exchange cash flow that 
the investment into that is more

403
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,800
than they can learn. 
But with smart contract wasting 

404
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,000
a maybe in the future Autobot, 
trading is not going to be 

405
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,100
dominant because I really don't 
like the Wall Street being 

406
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,500
dominated by treating all girls.
I think it should just be users 

407
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,700
which we had not to high-speed 
trading. 

408
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,700
I think smart contract because 
the trading fee is you cannot 

409
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,400
just ignore the street and V so 
probably all go Trading. 

410
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,300
Not going to be popular. 
So real user trading, they can 

411
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,000
use this ring matching, maybe 
they can benefit from that. 

412
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,300
And X is obviously also don't 
lend themselves to high 

413
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,700
frequency trading, right? 
Because basically the minimum 

414
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:39,100
time you have as the block time 
and basically everything that 

415
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:43,400
happens in a block happens 
defacto instantaneously exactly.

416
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,200
Yes. 
So, speaking of Wall Street, 

417
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,100
obviously, like you mentioned 
crypto exchanges, don't really 

418
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:54,700
make use of like, ring trading. 
But, you know, if like, is this 

419
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:58,800
ring, trading sort of Paradigm 
something that's used, maybe in,

420
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,300
traditional Financial exchanges,
like, NASDAQ or things like 

421
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:07,300
that. 
Is it used anywhere else that I 

422
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,400
don't know? 
I think the overall concept is 

423
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,400
to find the best price, right? 
To make sure the price you find 

424
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,200
the password. 
Salt in traditional markets 

425
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,500
pages to arbitrators. 
They use more than multiple 

426
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:26,100
trees to make sure past price is
fine right with ring matching. 

427
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,600
Basically we just want to make 
sure, you know, in one autonomy 

428
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,400
Corporation, they can achieve 
this. 

429
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:35,800
But the heart that the 
challenging part is that if you 

430
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,200
talk to a professional Market 
maker to say, hey, we have this 

431
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,000
ring matching cool stuff. 
They need to learn about that. 

432
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,300
I think those people are not 
Really good at accepting new 

433
00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,800
ideas, they just want to make 
sure they're treating. 

434
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,100
All those can be migrated to you
know, crypto and then make a 

435
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:57,100
profit when I can imagine is. 
It's probably very useful in 

436
00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:00,300
sort of OTC desks, rather than 
order book system. 

437
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:03,300
Like, if you're running OTC that
which is sort of, you know, 

438
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:08,200
lower volume, they might make 
sense that ring training might 

439
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,400
help there. 
Yes, I think in some treating 

440
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,800
all goes, they have this ring 
matching, I'll go there, but 

441
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,600
they don't call them ring 
matching. 

442
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:21,600
They just try to find across two
markets the opportunity to 

443
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,900
Arbitrage, right? 
And they break those 

444
00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:27,400
opportunities into multiple 
orders to make sure they have 

445
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,500
the profit. 
So if you bring those all goes 

446
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:35,700
into a ring matching relayer and
make sure in the original part 

447
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,900
book, you can find a ring then 
it's a ring. 

448
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:40,200
Matching. 
Right? 

449
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,600
So I think the overall concept 
is really just find 

450
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,700
Opportunities to find the best 
price for the user event. 

451
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:50,400
The best opportunity to make 
money out of those spreads. 

452
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,400
I think that's the general idea.
If you look at the arbitrageurs 

453
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,000
who actually spot these rings 
and execute them, they net the 

454
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000
difference, right? 
Anyway they actually transfer 

455
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,200
liquidity from other book to 
order book but they are paid for

456
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,500
this yearly by the user. 
By actually joining the split 

457
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:14,000
liquidity across different order
books in sort of this ring 

458
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,700
trading world. 
You actually make the 

459
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:21,000
arbitrageurs the market makers 
Superfluous to a certain extent.

460
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,600
No yeah, I think I I would agree
to what you said and so that's 

461
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,600
the eighth. 
Some centralized exchange or 

462
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,900
decentralized ones. 
They offer this ring matching 

463
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,900
all go in there. 
Match engine then the users will

464
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:38,500
benefit right? 
Not the Arbitrage because the 

465
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:42,300
there's no Arbitrage opportunity
at all because all those 

466
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:47,100
opportunities detected and used 
internally by The Exchange 

467
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,400
benefiting the users now to 
external Market Matrix or 

468
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,400
arbitrageurs To me this is super
interesting because as the 

469
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,400
listeners may know, is I'm the 
CEO at knossos and we built this

470
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,400
protocol named the gnosis 
protocol and the nose is 

471
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,000
particle when the exact other 
way. 

472
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,100
So basically, we also looked at 
scaling and bring Fades and we 

473
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:11,000
also decided that we could only 
Implement one of these at this 

474
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,500
time and we implemented the ring
trades and instead of the 

475
00:28:13,508 --> 00:28:17,100
scaling but you actually went 
the other way and you implement 

476
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,200
the scaling. 
So what you're actually doing is

477
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400
your life version of Luke, bring
three actually. 

478
00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:25,700
Uses, ZK Roll-Ups tell us about 
that. 

479
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,800
It's probably because I used to 
have this small centralized 

480
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,600
exchange and I always have this 
goal to create a direct that can

481
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,000
have the potential to compete 
with like Finance. 

482
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,300
It's my belief that it is much 
easier to convince a user to 

483
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:48,000
switch to a new project with a 
similar user experience. 

484
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,000
Then to tell them at very 
different business model to say,

485
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,600
hey this Is where you can do the
trees. 

486
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,000
The user experience is different
but the goal is the same Ray, is

487
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,300
it more? 
Like you talk to a normal user 

488
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:03,000
to use? 
You Nisswa units. 

489
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000
What works is great. 
But for normal users, they just,

490
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,700
hey, this is different. 
This is not exchange, right? 

491
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,300
So they have to take time to 
learn the new stuff with most 

492
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,200
people, especially those in 
China don't want to do, they 

493
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,500
just want to invite us make 
money and leave market, right? 

494
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:24,700
So my interest like a very A of 
looping is to create exchange to

495
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:27,400
compete with like Finance or 
okay, Yaks, I cannot say, I 

496
00:29:27,408 --> 00:29:30,000
don't like them. 
They certainly play a very 

497
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:33,900
important role in the ecosystem 
but I think going forward if 

498
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,600
those exchanges are still there,
those sad stories will happen 

499
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,000
again and that means we haven't 
done a good job. 

500
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,700
So my goal is really clear just 
to computer with them. 

501
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:51,200
So throughput and reducing the 
cost because my first priority 

502
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,600
by creating something, New and 
interesting is not so from our 

503
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,200
experience at least I think 
right now we are on the right 

504
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600
track. 
I'm not saying focusing on the 

505
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,600
ring match. 
It's not a good idea, but they 

506
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,400
certainly will be challenging 
even for you to make normal 

507
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,500
users to use. 
Can you put numbers on this? 

508
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,000
So what's your current 
throughput and what's the cost 

509
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,700
per order on the current version
of lubricant. 

510
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,400
So the current version is 
reporting. 

511
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:27,400
One is throughput is about 2020 
plus trees per second on the 

512
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,500
Syrian midnight and the segment 
upper the cost per settlement is

513
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:39,200
about 0.0002 US dollars. 
So three zeros after the point, 

514
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:44,400
I think it's okay. 
Is our new versions 3.5 which is

515
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,500
just code complete today because
is going to be lowered a little 

516
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:53,100
bit but not too far. 
The reason is that we have been 

517
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:58,400
optimizing the protocol so hard 
that there's little room to for 

518
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,900
improvement but I don't think is
a problem. 

519
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:05,000
The cost and the performance or 
the soup would are no longer 

520
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,200
issues for us in near term. 
As you can see in some statistic

521
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,800
our Production throughput is 
0.128 per second. 

522
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:18,700
There's a long way to go before.
We can reach our throughput, 

523
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,400
upper bound, the cause is. 
Okay, our cost for zero 

524
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,200
knowledge, proof generation for 
the instrument case is only 

525
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,600
about 15 to 20 percent of our 
payment to Amazon. 

526
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,900
So we pay for five times more to
Amazon than to like etherium 

527
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,500
gas. 
So I think those are now no 

528
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:40,900
longer problem, the biggest 
problem. 

529
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,200
I like user experience and user 
onboarding, those are more 

530
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,000
challenging right now. 
So, just for a reference point. 

531
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000
So you mentioned that your 
protocol concurrent to get about

532
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,200
2,000 traitor second. 
How much do does an exchange 

533
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,400
like Finance sort of what's 
their average throughput? 

534
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:05,700
When I owned my own exchange, 
the throughput is about 100 to 

535
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,300
300 trees per second for small 
centralized exchange. 

536
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:15,100
Because in reality, you don't 
want really put too much because

537
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:19,000
that means more cost you Cement 
in the infrastructure, right? 

538
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:23,500
So for finance I think it will 
be a couple of sovereigns 

539
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,900
normally and then maybe maybe 
tens of thousands at the peak I 

540
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:30,300
think by nice is okay because 
they make money. 

541
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:35,300
They can you know, scale pretty 
easily with more investment but 

542
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,400
for looping I think the upper 
bound is the upper bound right 

543
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,500
now. 
There's no way to go even 

544
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,500
further than 2,000 per trees per
second. 

545
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:50,600
What I'm saying is that A loop 
ring is as of now can compete 

546
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,100
with small or even middle-sized 
centralized exchanges but to 

547
00:32:55,100 --> 00:33:00,800
compute this by now as you need 
maybe 10x or 100x throughput, 

548
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,700
and you may want to reduce the 
cost per trade even further. 

549
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,600
So right now is really not ready
to compete it out, replaced by 

550
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,800
net. 
And there's also other 

551
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,900
challenges such as cross chain, 
right? 

552
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:19,000
We are only supporting tokens 
years are Tokens or and either 

553
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,200
not across chin assets. 
So, that's the challenging part.

554
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:27,500
So, the number of orders that 
you currently process on, 

555
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:31,000
looping is orders of magnitude 
below what you could in 

556
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,700
principle, do what in your mind 
is the principal challenge to 

557
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:38,600
adoption for you guys because 
it's not cost, right? 

558
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,000
It's not caused. 
First is user experience. 

559
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,500
So we right now only support 
matter mask, we support a wallet

560
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:50,000
connect. 
That's the only to approach to a

561
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,900
lock wallets and especially in 
China that people don't really 

562
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:55,500
use. 
Chrome browser. 

563
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,000
They don't have access to Chrome
Store which means they don't 

564
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,000
install metal mask at all. 
So the use onboarding part is 

565
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,900
really challenging. 
People have to get a VPN to 

566
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:10,600
access other the internet so we 
access the inter China, the 

567
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,800
Chinese Only Internet. 
So that part is really 

568
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,699
challenging for us. 
Even for people who have access 

569
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,800
to Chrome and The Meta mask. 
I think they still have to learn

570
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,900
something about looping about 
Why should I create a treating 

571
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:29,300
password? 
What if I lost the training 

572
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:32,900
paths, were things like that? 
Some some Corner cases scenario.

573
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,199
They have to learn how to handle
that and then the most 

574
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:39,500
challenging part A liquidity. 
So right now liquid, you has two

575
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,400
sides, the word on one side. 
We don't support Bitcoin. 

576
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,100
We don't support those top 20, 
you know, other blockchain 

577
00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:51,500
projects coins, but luckily we 
are going to support TPT see 

578
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:54,199
very soon but the other side is 
that. 

579
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,700
Initial liquidity is not good 
enough. 

580
00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:00,500
We have to work with market 
makers, to make sure they are 

581
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:04,100
willing to put their assets into
a looping and to the market 

582
00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:09,800
making, we have prepared at this
liquidity or market-making 

583
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,700
competition to attract 
Professionals for calm, but it 

584
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,400
will take some time and they 
will have to tell us whether our

585
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:21,100
profit sharing program works or 
not. 

586
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,100
For those people, I think making
money is important because they 

587
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:27,800
are putting their asset even in 
decentralized exchange. 

588
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,300
It also means risk, right? 
Nothing is safer than putting 

589
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:35,800
your sat to our own wallet, so 
we have to justify the risk and 

590
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:40,400
profit for them. 
Liquidity is very much a chicken

591
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,500
and egg problem. 
So basically if you look at the 

592
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:46,600
Loop bring architecture. 
So basically you we talked about

593
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,800
this in the very beginning, so 
you are non-custodial exchange, 

594
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,300
but I don't need to tell you 
guys this, but X is not a deck. 

595
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:58,000
So basically, there's many ways 
of actually architecting a decks

596
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,600
and you are not cursed, hold 
you, but you are a centralized 

597
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,100
order Book Exchange. 
Why did you opt for this 

598
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,700
centralized order book? 
And for Do you think about fully

599
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:15,300
decentralized exchanges? 
Well, I do lie, I prefer to use 

600
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:19,600
fully decentralized exchanges 
because that's what a tax is 

601
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,500
supposed to be right. 
In reality is hard because of 

602
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:28,700
the performance of the 
underlying tag blockchain 

603
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:32,000
technology. 
So hopefully when the theorem to

604
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,400
comes out we can have a facts 
which is fully on chain and can 

605
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,800
also provide You know, a better 
user experience, the all the 

606
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,200
book management, you know, 
others are created a canceled, 

607
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:49,800
you know, these operations, if 
put on chain will cause a lot of

608
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,900
gas than purely the settlement 
part because the sediment is all

609
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,200
the trees have been done and 
just move the money around. 

610
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,800
So I think even in the future 
even if serum has been scaled 

611
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,800
like a thousand times more, I 
think moving the all the book 

612
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,100
management, order matching 
Orange, Ian is still quite 

613
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:15,500
challenging so going forward and
maybe some like am an exchange 

614
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:20,400
like a uni swap it's going to be
more feasible in terms of 

615
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:26,500
implementation and operational 
so I don't see in my lifetime. 

616
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,700
The other Book Exchange were our
be moved fully unction. 

617
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:35,500
I think that's just not going to
happen but I do if they engage 

618
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:41,100
in a lot of new Trading. 
Models like you Nisswa like your

619
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:45,800
auction-based pass processing. 
Ring matching stuff is going to 

620
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:51,200
become more popular and get some
user from the centralized few 

621
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,900
changes. 
I'm not really optimistic about 

622
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:59,800
the later one scaling, because I
would say, even if the 

623
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,500
blockchain skills a lot more, 
there will be a lot more 

624
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:07,300
applications deployed on top of 
the layer one system. 

625
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:12,700
So that the gas price will be, 
you know, adjusted according to 

626
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,200
you know, the consumer and and 
you know the minor. 

627
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:22,500
So the guys price will not be 
1,000 times lower than it is now

628
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,500
after a serum to. 
So I think scalability is not a 

629
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:28,500
thing. 
You can rely on layer 1. 

630
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:36,300
So, why do you think that most 
of the on train exchanges or 

631
00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:38,200
decentralized exchanges in the 
broad sense? 

632
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,200
Like the order books? 
Haven't sort of gotten a lot of 

633
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,700
popularity yet. 
So if you look at things like 

634
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:47,000
zero or X is probably the most 
popular one. 

635
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:50,000
It's volume is like, much lower.
I don't know. 

636
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,800
Actually, I don't even know if 
it's lower die, maybe it's 

637
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,500
higher, I don't know. 
But at the very least like, you 

638
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,000
know, the Mind share is much 
lower than things like Yoona 

639
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,000
swab or Khyber or, you know, 
things that are taking non order

640
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,800
broke approaches. 
And so why is that The thumb 

641
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,500
side of older book based 
exchange with my knees other 

642
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:19,600
books often is that there's no 
easy way to achieve this 

643
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,500
composability with other 
function. 

644
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:27,300
If I product Khyber, and Yuna 
swap, they are really friendly. 

645
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:32,100
So it's easy for people to 
integrate with Khyber, with Yuna

646
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:36,200
swap, but it's not easy at all 
to integrate with Xerox. 

647
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:40,600
Exile, grouping, because when 
you submit order, you don't know

648
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,800
what's going to happen after the
submission of the other, right? 

649
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,600
You don't know whether the trade
is happening or not. 

650
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,600
And when, but with units will 
have, you are certain that and 

651
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,200
there's a high latency as well. 
Yes, yes. 

652
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:58,000
So basically the composability 
is one issue for any Layer. 

653
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,800
Two Solutions, I think 0x is not
exception. 

654
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:07,700
The other reason that the racks 
is not are going Haven't been 

655
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:11,500
popular, is that for normal 
users, in that the user 

656
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:17,100
experience of using Xerox is far
from being ideal, right? 

657
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,000
So most people accurate don't 
care about security, most 

658
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,500
people, they care about user 
experience. 

659
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:30,600
The security part is, you know, 
if you can offer the same user 

660
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,200
experience and and you are much 
more secure, then of course you 

661
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,000
are a very good. 
Good solution. 

662
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:40,800
If you sacrifice user 
experience, no matter how secure

663
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,200
Your solution is, if people 
don't get it, people don't want 

664
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,800
to pay for security at. 
They want to pay for user 

665
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,900
experience. 
They want to pay for being able 

666
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:53,200
to make a profit. 
So I think is 0 ax and new 

667
00:40:53,200 --> 00:41:00,300
parents early versions, We just 
cannot meet users expectation at

668
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,700
all. 
So to be fair to say that order 

669
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:08,600
book exchanges are sort of have 
to be a product in and of 

670
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,600
themselves, while maybe more, 
you know, swap or Bachelor 

671
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,800
auctions. 
And these things are lesser 

672
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,000
products in and of themselves 
are sort of more tools like as 

673
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,200
part of a larger defy toolkit 
and it's how they've 

674
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:29,000
differentiated themselves is the
composability on chain while 

675
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,700
order books changes can't Use 
that as a differentiator. 

676
00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:35,800
So they need to find different 
way to differentiate themselves.

677
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,200
It is true for now but I think 
it doesn't has to be true in the

678
00:41:44,207 --> 00:41:47,500
long run. 
So right now with Loop running, 

679
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:50,300
there's no way you can compose 
with layer 1. 

680
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:56,800
If I products, but with our 3.5 
version, we opened the door. 

681
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,600
So that people would deposit 
their tokens or Easter into our 

682
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,000
exchange contract. 
Those ICS can actually Work with

683
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,700
other defy products. 
So we allow people or the 

684
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:15,500
operator of the exchange to make
use of those tokens with the 

685
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:21,100
users permission and on the 
other side, you know, on layer 

686
00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:25,100
1, layer 2 side, maybe going 
forward, there are more layer to

687
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,900
composability so that we can 
have more layer to D5 products. 

688
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,800
They interact with each other so
we have interaction or 

689
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,900
composability on layer 2 as 
well. 

690
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,500
And without Lear, they are one 
composability. 

691
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:45,300
So maybe that's another thing, 
maybe will happen soon, but not 

692
00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:49,000
soon enough because their 
knowledge proof stuff is still, 

693
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,200
is not very developer-friendly 
right now, but going forward, 

694
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:57,200
maybe with even, even better 
technology or implementation of 

695
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,400
zero, knowledge proof, this can 
happen. 

696
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,400
So yeah, let's talk about that. 
So, how did you guys end up sort

697
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,200
of using Z Cairo? 
Roll ups and you know you I 

698
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,400
guess you guys were using them 
before they were even called GK 

699
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Roll-Ups. 
So for the point that you 

700
00:43:12,607 --> 00:43:15,300
decided, okay, you know what, 
let's sort of pivot to focus on 

701
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:19,000
scaling these exchanges, what 
are some of the Avenues you 

702
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,900
explored? 
And how do you end up on the 

703
00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:26,000
current solution? 
The reason we started 

704
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:31,700
investigating in your knowledge 
proof is that you know, one day 

705
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,900
like three years ago, I talked 
to my team to the hey, are you 

706
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:37,200
in optimistic about what we are 
doing? 

707
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,200
Are you excited? 
And they most people saying, no,

708
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,000
I don't think this is going to 
work so. 

709
00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:48,000
So here's some people say I 
pretend to be, you know, excited

710
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,600
because I don't want to make you
sad. 

711
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,400
So I said, okay, thank you for 
telling me the truth that we 

712
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,700
need to. 
To figure out a way to make some

713
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:57,800
change. 
Otherwise you know we are all 

714
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,100
going down, right? 
So I did some researchers, I 

715
00:44:01,107 --> 00:44:04,000
talked to my Chief Architect to 
say, Hey, you know, you know 

716
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,200
what, spare yourself from the 
daily life, the daily work, 

717
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:12,300
focus on zero, knowledge proof 
to make sure, you know, we 

718
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:16,400
understand the technology and we
can, we can try to use the 

719
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,200
technology to make sure we don't
use the blockchain itself for 

720
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,000
competition at all. 
Just about this. 

721
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:30,400
So racked, our Chief Architect, 
spend like three months for 

722
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,400
three months and then come up 
with a design. 

723
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,700
So I told the team that we are 
going to switch Direction, not 

724
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:42,800
focusing on Xerox, like exchange
at all. 

725
00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:47,800
We want to make sure skating is 
our priority, not some, some 

726
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,100
other features. 
It's a candle is a path. 

727
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:54,100
We didn't really know it. 
It's going to work out. 

728
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,300
As a matter of fact, we didn't 
really have this Tiki roll up 

729
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,400
idea, you know, in our design at
all. 

730
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,200
Because maybe the seek a rollup 
term has been brought up, but 

731
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,100
will it really didn't focus on 
that. 

732
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,900
We we just want to make sure, 
you know we have our own 

733
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,600
solution without be without 
relying on any other you know 

734
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,400
ideas it turns out our solution 
is TK Rolla. 

735
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:24,700
But you may not know that our 
solution also Has another option

736
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:31,100
to tint the roll-up part of so 
that we can only have the TK 

737
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:37,600
part on chain and use a like 
ipfs or some other decentralized

738
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,800
storage system to store the 
data. 

739
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,300
So if that option is is on the 
throughput is going to be much 

740
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,100
much higher. 
So it's a gamble. 

741
00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:52,400
It's a desperate need for make a
change. 

742
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,100
Otherwise the project is going 
to go down, so I don't want to 

743
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,000
to fail. 
So so luckily we found the right

744
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,800
direction. 
We didn't make mistakes in terms

745
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,500
of implementation. 
So I think I would say we are 

746
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:12,800
lucky and just both to tools and
New Direction without consensus 

747
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,000
from our token colors. 
They don't really know what's 

748
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,900
going on. 
Yeah, so we've been throwing 

749
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:19,800
around the term quite a bit. 
You gave her all up. 

750
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,400
Let's Deep dive into. 
What. 

751
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,800
Actually is it? 
How does it work? 

752
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,700
What Is the architecture. 
So, basically a previously, we 

753
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,600
at the other book is maintained 
of change of the ethereum 

754
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,300
blockchain. 
And then, if we find two others 

755
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:40,000
can match with each other, we 
bring those two others unchain. 

756
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:45,000
So dungeon part is smart. 
Contract will verify our the 

757
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,300
trade, the others can treat with
each other. 

758
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,600
We also verify the balances of 
those two accounts house, house 

759
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,800
of fate and proteins, and then 
they do the actual Pope in 

760
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,300
Swati. 
So a lot of computations on 

761
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:03,600
chain, the talking swapping is 
only the only a small portion of

762
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,300
the computation. 
But even with our optimization 

763
00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:14,800
is still takes like 200 to 
300,000 gas per settlement. 

764
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,800
So the throughput is really not 
good enough. 

765
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,500
So we figure maybe we don't want
to use the serum for the 

766
00:47:20,508 --> 00:47:23,200
competition. 
We move the competition often. 

767
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:27,800
So the idea is to create c'etait
often or layer to a concert 

768
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,900
system, structured in a binary 
Merkle tree. 

769
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,700
So the leaf of the Merkle tree 
will be the violence of the 

770
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:42,000
trading account for each user 
and whenever we do the trees we 

771
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,000
just modify the often Merkle 
tree and make sure the 

772
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,800
modification is propagated all 
the way up to the down to the 

773
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,800
root of the tree. 
And then to make sure the 

774
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,300
theorem Has the information 
about the often computation of 

775
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:03,900
the account modification. 
We have to put the root of the, 

776
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:08,900
you know, Merkle tree angry, 
theorem with a proof to make 

777
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:15,100
sure the way we updated. 
The trees are exactly falling, 

778
00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:18,700
our protocol, right? 
And the protocol is accurate, 

779
00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:23,800
the zero knowledge proof because
the circuit those are actual 

780
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,900
protocol, which makes Jurors in 
others, assigned by the user. 

781
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:33,100
And the accounts are the two 
trading accounts in a country, 

782
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:36,000
has the balance. 
And after the settlement, you 

783
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,400
know, those accounts balance are
still have their tokens, not 

784
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,400
somebody else who get their book
in Balance. 

785
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:48,000
So all the rules are actually 
still there, but not on chain on

786
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,400
layer. 
One is accurate often on layer 2

787
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,200
to make sure people are really 
understanding. 

788
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:58,500
People are really sure about the
rules. 

789
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:03,000
I installed a followed we have 
to do something called a trust 

790
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,600
set up. 
So we open source the zero 

791
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,000
knowledge proof, related circus 
and ask people to make it to run

792
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:15,700
the setup to generate a random 
number into the system and make 

793
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:20,900
sure it's linked with a theorem.
So that all the often Parts 

794
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,100
open-sourced audited verified by
Third parties. 

795
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:31,900
And then we have after a set of 
settlement, we called a batch or

796
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:37,300
a block, a new Merkle, tree root
is generated new corresponding 

797
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,900
proof is generated. 
We then put those two pieces of 

798
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:44,000
data on chain and onion, 
theorem. 

799
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,200
What we do is to just to verify 
the zero, knowledge proof. 

800
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:53,400
There is a pre-compiled 
verification is tracked, 

801
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,700
instruction that we can use. 
It costs very little about the 

802
00:49:57,700 --> 00:50:05,100
22k gas and we can settle 
thousands of trees within that 

803
00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:08,700
little transaction. 
So in general is a layer to a 

804
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:12,200
consists of multiplication 
instead of layer 1, right? 

805
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,300
Okay, there's a lot to unpack 
now, so maybe let me, let me 

806
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,300
recap this to make sure that 
I've understood it correctly. 

807
00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:22,600
So basically, you collect the 
data current you on chain, but 

808
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,200
it could also be on ipfs or 
somewhere else. 

809
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,900
And then, basically, the 
computation is done off chain, 

810
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:34,100
but the proof is then put on 
chains, so that everyone can 

811
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:36,500
make sure that you guys are not 
cheating. 

812
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,500
And the setup is done in a trust
way. 

813
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:45,100
So as to make sure that the 
proof Just also above board. 

814
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,400
So a couple of weeks ago we had 
on the optimism team. 

815
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,200
So Colin Ning Nang. 
And they talked about optimistic

816
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,700
roll up which is the version of 
roll up that I'd X is going to 

817
00:50:57,700 --> 00:51:00,800
use a centralized version of. 
Could you explain some of the 

818
00:51:00,808 --> 00:51:04,900
differences between optimistic 
roll up and the ZK, wrote up 

819
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:09,100
that you guys use? 
I think the TK roll-up. 

820
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:15,400
Have you described as proactive?
Approve based and the optimistic

821
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,200
roll-up is more passive proof 
based or fraud proof based. 

822
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:24,400
So, in order for the optimistic 
roll up to work, you have to 

823
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,700
figure out a way to incentivize 
serve party to make sure they 

824
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:35,800
can continuously monitor the 
functioning transaction to 

825
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,900
detect any. 
Potential fraud, proofs, right 

826
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,400
Auto detect the inconsistency of
data and then generate the fraud

827
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:51,000
proof to make sure, you know, 
there is a watchdog who are now 

828
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,000
to really member of your 
alliance who can, you know, just

829
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,700
fight against you. 
Right. 

830
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:03,500
The challenging part is that you
have to design the way to 

831
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:09,000
incentivize them because if the,
if the Education has been 

832
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,400
performing really, honestly, 
then there's no way, there's no 

833
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:16,700
fraud at all, right. 
So, the other party will just 

834
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:18,100
feel. 
Hey, you know, I have been 

835
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:21,000
wasting my time here because I 
didn't really detect anything 

836
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,600
wrong so and I get paid. 
If I'm not get paid, I will 

837
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,800
leave, right? 
So if nobody is actually 

838
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,900
watching the application then 
suddenly you know, the operator 

839
00:52:31,900 --> 00:52:36,700
will have a chance to create a 
fraud to behave, you know, this 

840
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:39,300
artist. 
And then because there's no 

841
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:43,600
active watch was dark there then
later you know after the period 

842
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,800
after a certain time then 
everything is finalized. 

843
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:51,800
You know what stock even they 
can find some inconsistency that

844
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,600
there's nothing they can do 
because, you know, there's also 

845
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:59,100
this always a time period. 
You know, the fraud proof can be

846
00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:01,200
submitted after that. 
There's nothing you can do. 

847
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:06,900
So, I like the idea of 
optimistic roll up, but if 

848
00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:11,900
there's Is no way to create such
a token incentivize mechanism. 

849
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,700
Then I will be not waiting to 
put a lot of money into such 

850
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:20,400
application, but with zero 
knowledge proof, the cause is 

851
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,000
bigger, but every submission of 
data and the proof makes sure 

852
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,400
everything works before that 
timestamp. 

853
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:35,000
So I'm 100% sure that all the 
data is is cracked and I can 

854
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,700
trust. 
So that's Just the my maybe I'm 

855
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,600
biased because I chose to take a
roll up. 

856
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,900
I hope there is a way people can
create that to mechanism to 

857
00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:50,100
incentivize people who always 
watching of this Lola 

858
00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:54,100
application. 
But I doubt So what are some of 

859
00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:57,100
the trade-offs here? 
So it sounds like, you know, ZK 

860
00:53:57,100 --> 00:54:00,700
Roll-Ups are giving us the 
scalability and security and all

861
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:04,400
this amazing stuff. 
What are we sacrificing by using

862
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:09,300
them? 
First of all, the till now is 

863
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:16,900
proof is not really optimized 
but this is a technology of ten 

864
00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:22,700
years old but really not how 
been used in application in real

865
00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:27,800
world fall for some time. 
So we are bound by the 

866
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,000
performance of zero knowledge 
proof. 

867
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:34,000
So what is the current zero 
knowledge proof libraries we 

868
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,700
have to pay for extra cost. 
In production for generating the

869
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:43,000
proof right, optimistic. 
Roll-up is more like a economic 

870
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,700
design. 
It doesn't have really any 

871
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:51,000
understand the underlying, you 
know, mathematical modeling or 

872
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,000
some other Technologies to rely 
on to depends on. 

873
00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:00,200
So, if you you are good at 
modeling, the the risk and you 

874
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:05,200
know, make sure people can use 
your data to create a fraud, you

875
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,600
can do that without Hang on 
other stuff. 

876
00:55:07,900 --> 00:55:12,900
So so for us, we how to make 
sure, you know, going forward if

877
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:15,600
people are working on zero 
knowledge proof and you know, 

878
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:20,600
bring as a biter Library, we can
just raise to the other library,

879
00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:24,300
but we are not scientists. 
We are not a, you know, good at 

880
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:26,000
math. 
So we cannot create that 

881
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,900
underlying library, right? 
So that's our our limitation 

882
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,700
here so we are basic this use 
tichenor, right? 

883
00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:39,100
We are not capable of Improving 
that they could start a lot. 

884
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:42,100
Well optimistic roll up. 
You don't have to rely on 

885
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:45,400
anything, right? 
So it's a modeling, it's a 

886
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,500
mentality that you allow people 
to challenge you and that that's

887
00:55:49,500 --> 00:55:52,000
it. 
That makes sense. 

888
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:54,200
So let's switch gears a little 
bit. 

889
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,100
We talked about this earlier, at
least, we alluded to it. 

890
00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:00,700
So you guys did a token sale 
where you actually had to refund

891
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,900
a lot of The Ether that you 
raised, but the fact remains 

892
00:56:03,900 --> 00:56:07,000
that you guys have a token. 
So what does your token do? 

893
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,200
Well, that's a good question. 
To be honest, we have been 

894
00:56:11,300 --> 00:56:14,500
always struggling with the token
economy. 

895
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,100
We certainly don't want to turn 
our token into a security token,

896
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:24,100
right? 
And we don't know how to design 

897
00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:26,200
a better token economy. 
We have been talking about this 

898
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:30,900
even like this week to our own 
Engineers that will say, Hey, 

899
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:35,000
you know, this is not good. 
Great, the current staking model

900
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,500
so right as Of. 
Now if you have ever see token, 

901
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:44,500
you can stick ever see to earn 
the protocol feeds protocol fee 

902
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:48,500
is the portion of the treating 
fee is accurate. 

903
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:54,300
The six basis points of the 
trading volume every trees on 

904
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:58,300
every looping based exchange. 
You know, six, visit points of 

905
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:03,600
the treating fees is going to be
taken into a protocol fee full, 

906
00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:09,400
and if your steak for more than 
Two days, you will claim your 

907
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,900
portion based on, you know, how 
long and how many tokens you 

908
00:57:12,900 --> 00:57:16,900
have staked their so. 
So you stake, you get the 

909
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:20,400
protocol feet, that's it. 
So it's a passive staking 

910
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,100
meaning that you don't have to 
do anything else besides steak 

911
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,800
which is not good. 
Because passel means, you know, 

912
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,400
it's more like a security, 
right? 

913
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,100
You like stuff, you did, you get
the learning? 

914
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:39,200
So going forward, we may want to
incorporate with This doll to 

915
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,500
make sure people have to stake, 
and they have to vote or 

916
00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:45,100
something like that. 
To make sure active users really

917
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:49,600
have more will benefit more from
the protocol fee e-stop is that 

918
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:55,300
of just need passive staking but
I'm not 100% sure. 

919
00:57:55,300 --> 00:58:00,100
I'm a big fan of bow going 
forward, I think we will also 

920
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:03,000
create a looping down to make 
sure a lot of parameters 

921
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:07,300
governed by looping token 
holders not ourselves. 

922
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:13,100
But for the token, I even think 
maybe a security token. 

923
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:15,600
Malta is the best. 
If you if you really believe 

924
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,200
something you should be just 
passive why should a project 

925
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,700
team require you to do some to 
certain thing to make a profit? 

926
00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:24,400
Right? 
You have already invested in the

927
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:29,100
project with ho tokens, it 
should just do nothing but it's 

928
00:58:29,100 --> 00:58:31,700
going to work against the 
security law. 

929
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:37,500
So I'm still debating internally
with our team but going forward 

930
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,300
I think we will try different 
things to make sure that the 

931
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:43,000
adverse is taking is going to be
improved. 

932
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:47,500
Yeah, so that's the current 
status of the looping staking 

933
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:51,800
but as of now, I think this 
staking rewarded like 2%. 

934
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,700
I knew I knew Ali right now but 
going forward. 

935
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:57,900
I don't know how mass is going 
to be 2 percent is good enough. 

936
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,300
I appreciate your candidness. 
I think this is commendable. 

937
00:59:04,700 --> 00:59:07,000
So we're talk about this in a 
little bit. 

938
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,900
So I know you guys also took 
part in the D X Tau and a fairly

939
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:13,800
large weight. 
But so basically, if you are 

940
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,400
talking about the lrc token, 
kind of becoming governance, 

941
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,000
token of some sort, what kind of
parameters? 

942
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,600
Do you see being set by the lrc 
token holders? 

943
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,800
Is it things like which tokens 
to list of what Friday trading 

944
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,100
fees to take or something? 
Entirety. 

945
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:34,100
So there are two sides of 
parameters. 

946
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:39,400
One side is the protocol wise of
parameters such as the protocol 

947
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,000
feed percent is from right now 
is 6. 

948
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,500
This is points, maybe it will 
change to a different value. 

949
00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:49,800
The other parameters will be 
like, how many overseas should a

950
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:55,600
sex operator hold before they 
can open a looping tax, right? 

951
00:59:56,300 --> 01:00:00,900
And there are also a lot of 
products parameters like commas.

952
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,900
Treating fees, they will charge 
at that party is totally 

953
01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:08,400
controlled by the tax. 
Operator is not controlled by us

954
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:14,500
or by any other parties. 
We need to give sex operators or

955
01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:18,400
owners the flexibility to 
control those parameters. 

956
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,500
Otherwise they will not choose 
blueprint, they will choose a 

957
01:00:21,508 --> 01:00:25,400
looping clone who allows them 
to, you know, control those 

958
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,500
parameters. 
So we figured you know what are 

959
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:31,100
they can do with looping, they 
should what are they? 

960
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,800
Do with like Finance like 
sexist, they can do with 

961
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,600
blueprint so that part we are 
not going to control at all. 

962
01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:42,900
So the protocol wires parameters
will and should be governed by 

963
01:00:42,900 --> 01:00:45,900
the, the towel. 
The one thing I really don't 

964
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:52,700
like doll or have concern on 
doll, is that most people are 

965
01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:57,400
not really interested in 
participating in voting or 

966
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,500
they'll a communist, right? 
You know, people just most Just 

967
01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:06,000
late included, be if I don't 
vote, if it's not voting is not 

968
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,800
bring me a benefit, I would tend
to, you know, just watch some 

969
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,600
TV, right? 
So it turns out most down users 

970
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:21,900
they don't contribute we as a as
a bad example, we are a like one

971
01:01:21,900 --> 01:01:25,900
of the top 10 token holder in 
the ax down, by the way, it did 

972
01:01:25,900 --> 01:01:29,300
in really being, we haven't been
really active. 

973
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:32,300
We didn't really participate in 
A lot of voting. 

974
01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:36,800
So we feel sorry about that. 
So as a result, we propose to 

975
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,100
gave our down token to add her 
token holders. 

976
01:01:40,100 --> 01:01:41,900
So say, hey, we are not really 
active. 

977
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:44,500
We feel sorry about that. 
There were too busy with our own

978
01:01:44,500 --> 01:01:48,100
project, we are waiting to give 
this happens to anyone who 

979
01:01:48,100 --> 01:01:50,400
wants, you know, be active, 
right? 

980
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:55,200
So not being active is a big 
downside of Dow. 

981
01:01:55,200 --> 01:02:02,200
Maybe there are ways to to make 
changes but I I don't know, the 

982
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:06,100
term my English is not native, 
there's a term that, you know, 

983
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:12,400
if some some Elise they govern, 
small economy, entity and there 

984
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:16,800
are like a normal users, 
everybody to Calvin, The Entity 

985
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,500
or organization, right? 
I tend to believe that Elise 

986
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:25,400
they are better at governing, is
that of, you know, normal users,

987
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,900
like one vote per user, right? 
If you look into any, a lot of 

988
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:35,700
democracy country These people 
have to elect some, some people 

989
01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:39,400
to represent them to make better
judgment call right, not 

990
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,800
themselves, right? 
I totally appreciate what you're

991
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,400
saying. 
So basically what you're saying,

992
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,900
it's perfectly legitimate to 
have an interest in being a 

993
01:02:47,908 --> 01:02:51,300
stakeholder without wanting to 
visit a participating in the 

994
01:02:51,308 --> 01:02:54,200
governance and just saying, I 
want to invest in you as a 

995
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,800
project but I don't want to say 
or do I don't need to exercise 

996
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:03,200
my say and basically having that
be legalized under security if 

997
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,500
that didn't trigger all kinds of
security laws, you would be in 

998
01:03:06,500 --> 01:03:08,200
favor of that for do bring as 
well. 

999
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,000
Yes, that's true. 
I have one last question on the 

1000
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,600
protocol before we move on to 
like the wider ecosystem. 

1001
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:21,600
So obviously the smart contract 
is Central to your protocol and 

1002
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,200
tell us about the security level
that you have on that. 

1003
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,200
So basically has it been audited
but your process in that area. 

1004
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:35,300
I guess so for every protocol 
version we put into production. 

1005
01:03:35,300 --> 01:03:39,900
We have a surprise party who 
have done the Oddity for us for 

1006
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,000
the second major version would 
even have a third party to run 

1007
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,700
this formal verification. 
So I don't know whether that 

1008
01:03:47,700 --> 01:03:51,300
works because that really didn't
find any back at all for us. 

1009
01:03:54,300 --> 01:03:57,800
The manual inspection of the 
coda is actually helping a lot 

1010
01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:02,300
because I can the users and 
their experience in a bring a 

1011
01:04:02,300 --> 01:04:05,600
lot of lessons. 
They learned experience that 

1012
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,200
they, they have to us through to
improve the code base, but 

1013
01:04:09,900 --> 01:04:13,800
formal verification, we tried 
once it didn't really help us. 

1014
01:04:14,500 --> 01:04:18,100
Maybe it's because we had the 
mining inspector in first and 

1015
01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:22,500
then the anyway. 
So for for this 3.5 version, 

1016
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:25,400
this new version, we are not 
going to have a independent 

1017
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,500
auditor because we don't want to
put the new version into 

1018
01:04:28,500 --> 01:04:33,100
production. 
We Aim to deliver looping 4.0 

1019
01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:37,500
directly maybe in a few months 
and put those into diversity 

1020
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:40,800
into production, but he's, but 
in general, I think security is 

1021
01:04:41,500 --> 01:04:44,700
up most. 
We cannot lose security. 

1022
01:04:44,700 --> 01:04:48,200
We can sacrifice anything else 
but not security. 

1023
01:04:48,900 --> 01:04:53,200
If we have one big issue in 
security, if peoples token or 

1024
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:58,000
Easter or last, it will take us.
Maybe we just we will go down 

1025
01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:02,900
and maybe we will take Gus like 
minds work, you know, to recover

1026
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,900
where we are, so I don't want to
sacrifice security at all. 

1027
01:05:07,900 --> 01:05:11,000
So there's this is the bottom 
Okay. 

1028
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,400
So I mean and as you said, 
that's what if your eyes, the 

1029
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,300
higher Mark of a decentralized 
exchange is namely that people 

1030
01:05:17,300 --> 01:05:22,300
self custody there's is rather 
than giving the custody to a 

1031
01:05:22,300 --> 01:05:27,900
third party who may then lose it
or no be hacked or so on. 

1032
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,300
So basically yeah that basically
sacrificing on security 

1033
01:05:31,300 --> 01:05:33,500
obviously would not be the right
move. 

1034
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,800
So, with our newer Pros, we 
allow the operator of the 

1035
01:05:38,808 --> 01:05:44,500
exchange to use people's fun but
only when they also open source,

1036
01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:48,600
they're smart contract. 
They also, you know, audit their

1037
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,400
smart contract. 
So the simply the most simple 

1038
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:58,600
way to utilize peoples fund is 
to, you know, put most funds 

1039
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,400
people deposit into a routine 
based exchange into. 

1040
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,400
Like let's say you nicoise And 
then you know they can't they 

1041
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,800
can make some money there, 
right? 

1042
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:12,800
And then they can't claim back 
their tokens proportionally back

1043
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:18,600
from the deposit contract. 
But again, I agree with you, you

1044
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,100
know, user how to choose, you 
know, whether they want to stay 

1045
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,200
conservative by not allowing 
their token to be moved around, 

1046
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:30,800
or they want to be more like, 
profit-driven to make sure 

1047
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,600
they're falcon. 
Traded ought to be traded in 

1048
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,400
looking basic, change will be 
accurately, earning some 

1049
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,000
interest for them. 
So they have the flexibility, 

1050
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,800
they have to make the call. 
We just make sure it's possible 

1051
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,900
there. 
And if, you know, we adapt a new

1052
01:06:46,900 --> 01:06:50,600
version into our own 
decentralized exchange, we may 

1053
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,300
stay very conservative not to do
a lot of deeper integration. 

1054
01:06:54,300 --> 01:06:58,800
Because defy, right now, has a 
take risk of being too 

1055
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,900
complicated. 
They are stacking on each other 

1056
01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:06,900
and you know, You don't know 
where the weakest link is right.

1057
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,400
And the system is only as secure
as the weakest link. 

1058
01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:14,200
So I would strongly, you know, 
suggest against doing a lot of 

1059
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:19,700
complicated if I integration. 
So what do you see? 

1060
01:07:19,700 --> 01:07:23,700
Is the future of the decks 
ecosystem going forward. 

1061
01:07:23,700 --> 01:07:26,900
And what do you think? 
What do you make of some of the 

1062
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,200
more recent changes that 
happened ecosystem? 

1063
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,600
I think one of the most 
interesting one of the ones 

1064
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:37,000
especially is like, how a lot of
centralized exchanges are 

1065
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,200
building their own dex's and in 
quotes and like the fact that 

1066
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,800
Finance has this Finance chain 
or like and will be is creating 

1067
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:48,900
their home. 
He changed off which are like 

1068
01:07:49,100 --> 01:07:51,100
you know, pseudo decentralized 
things. 

1069
01:07:51,100 --> 01:07:56,100
But do you think this might hurt
the adoption story for you? 

1070
01:07:56,100 --> 01:07:59,900
No more truer more pure 
decentralized exchanges. 

1071
01:07:59,900 --> 01:08:02,100
Yes or no. 
And how do you see this going 

1072
01:08:02,100 --> 01:08:06,800
forward? 
Well, in terms of taxes on their

1073
01:08:06,900 --> 01:08:12,000
one, I would love to see a lot 
of different trading, very 

1074
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:17,100
different trading models, who 
become, you know, products, 

1075
01:08:17,700 --> 01:08:22,200
especially amm on layer 2. 
I really just see right now. 

1076
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:27,700
TK Roll Up is probably the best 
solution to scale attacks on 

1077
01:08:27,700 --> 01:08:32,500
earlier to as to binaries chain 
bags or okay. 

1078
01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:37,500
Yeah, like school be, you know, 
if If you really understand what

1079
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:41,200
security means, you know, they 
are not secure, right? 

1080
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:43,399
They can argue, you know, they 
are also decentralized. 

1081
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:46,500
They also Block Chain but not 
all blockchains us secure, 

1082
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:48,000
right? 
But if you look at the code 

1083
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,500
base, yeah, it's decentralized. 
You know, it's very similar to 

1084
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:57,300
the theorem whatever at who are 
behind the consensus. 

1085
01:08:57,300 --> 01:08:59,399
Right. 
What matters to security is the 

1086
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:03,700
consensus has to be erased among
different parties more parties. 

1087
01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:07,899
They know each other. 
They cannot easily affect each 

1088
01:09:07,899 --> 01:09:12,399
other's decision making with a 
lot of blockchains. 

1089
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:14,700
You know? 
They're, they're minors. 

1090
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:18,500
Their consensus is really just 
centralized, right? 

1091
01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:22,600
They have six more scenes, maybe
even if one data center, right. 

1092
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,500
All controlled, by the mob, 
controlled by people who they 

1093
01:09:25,500 --> 01:09:30,000
can influence or control. 
So if the underlying consensus 

1094
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,200
is not be centralized enough in 
everything on top of them. 

1095
01:09:34,700 --> 01:09:37,200
On top of it is not a secret at 
all. 

1096
01:09:37,500 --> 01:09:41,200
So I'm not worried about taxes 
build on top of. 

1097
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:43,600
Okay. 
Yeah, question, financed in 

1098
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,100
whatever chin, it doesn't 
matter. 

1099
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,399
How do you educate users to be 
able to do this sort of 

1100
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:54,400
differentiation? 
That's a good question because 

1101
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,500
most people just don't 
understand that, right? 

1102
01:09:56,500 --> 01:10:00,000
So, is it takes a lot of 
education's to make sure normal 

1103
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,700
people really understand 
security? 

1104
01:10:03,100 --> 01:10:06,400
I think what you are doing, I 
think is amazing photo. 

1105
01:10:06,900 --> 01:10:09,300
We don't have time to fall for 
that and we don't have the 

1106
01:10:09,300 --> 01:10:13,200
influence for that, but I think 
over a gradual, a people will 

1107
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,900
realize people will follow 
people. 

1108
01:10:15,900 --> 01:10:20,300
They they believe in like right 
now, botanic it really Pro 

1109
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:24,200
Roll-Ups and there are Of 
opinion leader. 

1110
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:29,100
They talk about sticky, roll up 
if you talk about security, so I

1111
01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:33,900
think that's that's good. 
What then to you is the last 

1112
01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:38,900
thing that we need to overcome 
to help dex's reach the 

1113
01:10:38,900 --> 01:10:43,500
popularity's that Sexes 
currently do have because if you

1114
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:47,000
look at the, if you look at the 
global trade volume is like on 

1115
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:51,300
the order of 1% or something 
that happens on dex's and all 

1116
01:10:51,300 --> 01:10:53,800
the rest is on centralized 
exchanges, right? 

1117
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:59,100
First of all, you have to, you 
know, the mate those trading 

1118
01:10:59,100 --> 01:11:01,200
volumes aren't centralized 
exchanges. 

1119
01:11:01,700 --> 01:11:05,900
A lot of you cannot say they are
real, right? 

1120
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,500
Maybe a person with about real, 
some exchanges are more real 

1121
01:11:09,500 --> 01:11:14,500
than others but yes I agree 
that, you know, Sexes are still 

1122
01:11:14,500 --> 01:11:17,500
dominating. 
We help you thinking about this 

1123
01:11:17,700 --> 01:11:23,400
and our answer to the current 
challenge is a smart Wallet app 

1124
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:28,900
so that people don't have to 
learn about their private keys. 

1125
01:11:28,900 --> 01:11:33,800
There are phrases. 
They don't they just need a 

1126
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,600
secure network to make sure they
can help recover, their private 

1127
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:43,100
keys. 
So a smart contract, that speaks

1128
01:11:43,100 --> 01:11:47,800
the same language that normal 
users, speak with a good user 

1129
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:53,200
experience with sufficient defy 
integration, but not too 

1130
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:57,200
complicated evaluation so that 
they can hold the wallet and 

1131
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:02,900
then make money, right? 
So that will In my opinion, be a

1132
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:09,000
killer app for massive users and
actually, that's what we are 

1133
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,100
working on. 
So, to offer, especially for the

1134
01:12:11,100 --> 01:12:16,200
Chinese market, a mobile app 
with a small smart wallet will 

1135
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:21,400
go app which looping built in so
they don't have to use meta 

1136
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:25,100
mask, use import their wallets, 
right? 

1137
01:12:25,100 --> 01:12:30,100
So the user experience is going 
to be like, very smooth, but we 

1138
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:35,500
this is just my My answer, but 
not necessarily to be in a 

1139
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,400
successful in the future. 
We need to give it a try. 

1140
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:42,900
I think, you know, a lot of 
different projects that are just

1141
01:12:42,900 --> 01:12:46,600
trying, right? 
Our approach is different, not, 

1142
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,500
not in terms of, we are 
providing a smart contract but 

1143
01:12:49,500 --> 01:12:52,600
we are really targeting the 
people, the user base. 

1144
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:56,600
Who, what not probes, right? 
They are just normal user. 

1145
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:01,500
They don't want to learn a lot. 
They don't listen to what. 

1146
01:13:01,700 --> 01:13:04,900
Guys I'll free, right? 
They don't listen to my podcast 

1147
01:13:04,900 --> 01:13:10,500
of my life streaming, they just 
want to download something to 

1148
01:13:10,500 --> 01:13:13,400
make money, that's it. 
You know, they are not Pros. 

1149
01:13:14,100 --> 01:13:19,700
So once this smart wallet 
coming, we are testing internal 

1150
01:13:19,700 --> 01:13:24,400
version right now. 
So hopefully later this year, in

1151
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:26,900
property, in July, is going to 
come out. 

1152
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:31,300
But mainly for the Chinese 
market I think regulation is 

1153
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,500
Thing we really want to focus in
the future so we don't think we 

1154
01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:40,800
have the body. 
The resource is to get regulated

1155
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:45,700
in other countries. 
I think defy blockchain crypto 

1156
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:49,500
eventually it will be part of 
Finance so it's going to be 

1157
01:13:49,508 --> 01:13:54,000
highly regulated locally. 
We want to get locally regulated

1158
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:58,800
in in China but the technology 
is going to open source to other

1159
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,000
two everywhere. 
Well ain't this the smart wallet

1160
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,100
that you launch later this year,
is it going to have? 

1161
01:14:06,300 --> 01:14:08,900
I mean, you said you want to 
what you wanted to be secured by

1162
01:14:08,900 --> 01:14:10,900
the network. 
So does it have like social 

1163
01:14:10,900 --> 01:14:14,200
recovery features or if I lose 
my mobile phone? 

1164
01:14:14,500 --> 01:14:17,200
How do you make sure that I 
don't also lose my assets? 

1165
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,800
Yes, that's the way we got going
to provide the recovery. 

1166
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:28,800
So it's based on social network 
relationship right now in China,

1167
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,900
they use WeChat. 
So we are going to integrate 

1168
01:14:31,900 --> 01:14:36,500
which we chat. 
So that if you lost something, 

1169
01:14:36,500 --> 01:14:40,000
you can use, we try to reach to 
your friends, your secure 

1170
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,200
network to make sure they know 
you are you, and then they can 

1171
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:48,300
help you to recover. 
So, away also going to support, 

1172
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:53,000
Hardware's at as garden and we 
also going to offer a 

1173
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,700
centralized Garden service to 
make sure you know we are going 

1174
01:14:56,700 --> 01:15:02,900
to act as the first you know 
responder to recovery. 

1175
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:07,400
A lot of feature will be added 
but I think we are going to make

1176
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:12,100
sure this is a still a decent 
decentralized wallet than 

1177
01:15:12,100 --> 01:15:16,400
custodial wallet which can 
integrate with looping Exchange 

1178
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:19,600
natively. 
To make sure people when they 

1179
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,600
get on board, exchange is going 
to be much easier. 

1180
01:15:22,900 --> 01:15:25,300
They don't have to learn a lot 
of terms. 

1181
01:15:26,500 --> 01:15:29,200
Daniel, thank you. 
This was super fascinating and I

1182
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:33,000
think the Chinese user poor 
obviously is enormous so we wish

1183
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,900
you the best of luck. 
And I hope this becomes a 

1184
01:15:36,900 --> 01:15:38,900
success because this sounds 
super cool. 

1185
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,300
Thank you for being on. 
Thank you, hopefully going 

1186
01:15:42,300 --> 01:15:45,900
forward. 
We can also integrate the ring 

1187
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,400
style, unchain, you know, 
trading experience into our 

1188
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,100
wallet, so hopefully, we can 
work there. 

1189
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,400
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1190
01:15:58,700 --> 01:16:00,400
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1191
01:16:00,900 --> 01:16:03,700
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1192
01:16:03,700 --> 01:16:06,800
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1193
01:16:07,100 --> 01:16:10,000
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1194
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:12,900
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1195
01:16:12,900 --> 01:16:16,000
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1196
01:16:16,008 --> 01:16:18,600
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1197
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,400
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1198
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,800
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1199
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:28,000
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1200
01:16:28,008 --> 01:16:30,800
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1201
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:34,000
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1202
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:34,900
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