1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,920 So Bitcoin issuance like you said is every four years it just 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,360 goes half and eventually it will converge to 0. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,160 Roll ups are using the L1 as the DA layer. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,520 So we post our data to Bitcoin in the form of ZK proofs and 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,360 state diffs, which is a bit more optimized form of just sending 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,600 pure transaction data and we compress them, send them to 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,840 Bitcoin. So we do two things at the same 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,960 time. We achieve the Bitcoin level 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,640 security because the data is there. 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,400 And we also pay miners to be incentivized to keep the hash 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,480 rate high and get more fees and just continue the chain without 12 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:41,480 reducing it's security. And right now, the data size of 13 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:45,600 doing a Bitcoin transfer on Citri is 15 times smaller than 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,920 doing it on Bitcoin maintenance. If you're looking to stake your 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,960 crypto with confidence, look no further than Course 1. 16 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:56,040 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bit 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,720 Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger Trust course one with their 18 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,960 assets. They support over 50 block 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,240 chains and are leaders in governance or networks like 20 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,400 Cosmos, ensuring your stake is responsibly managed. 21 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Thanks to the advanced MEV research, you can also enjoy the 22 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,840 highest staking rewards. 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Hello and welcome to Epicenter. 44 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,000 I'm your host Felix Lutch and today I'm here with the Co 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,680 creator of Citria, Orkun Kilich. Hi Orkun, and welcome to 46 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:34,920 Epicenter. Hi. 47 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:36,560 Hi, Felix. Thank you for having me. 48 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,280 Yeah, great to have you as usual on on episode. 49 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,240 We kind of want to start with how you how you got into crypto. 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:54,280 Citria is L2 like AOZK roll up on on Bitcoin. 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,480 So today's topic will be probably a lot about like sort 52 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,360 of like Bitcoin programmability things around that. 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,640 And you know, I guess want to probably know how you how you 54 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:08,040 ended up in that space and how you started to work in in 55 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:08,680 crypto. So like. 56 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:09,960 Please. Yeah, sure. 57 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,240 So I'm Mark and I'm one of the four Co founders of Chainmail 58 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,800 Labs, the initial contributors of Citrea and the CEO. 59 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,640 Actually, I got into crypto and Bitcoin maybe like 5 or 6 years 60 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:26,360 from now. And when I was in college, I was 61 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,760 getting some scholarship to some crypto based application 62 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,840 basically. And then I started to learn how 63 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,240 to open a wallet, how to receive funds, then how to do off Rep to 64 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,880 spend in local markets. I'm from Turkey, Istanbul, so I 65 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,480 was studying there. And then I started wondering, 66 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,200 OK, these are working fine, but it doesn't hit to the bank or 67 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,720 like it doesn't use any conventional infrastructure. 68 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,840 So how do I receive these funds? How can I be sure that I'm 69 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,440 actually receiving the funds? And I started looking into it. 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,000 I obviously heard about Bitcoin a lot, but then I encountered 71 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,120 this is actually something technological like based on 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,240 computer science and distributed systems and cryptography and I 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,480 started digging deep. Back in those days I was doing 74 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,560 web development for regular web 2 stuff, but as time comes I I 75 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,680 thought more and more interesting. 76 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:22,840 Then I started basically building smart contracts. 77 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,160 I first tried to build something on Bitcoin, but I realized I 78 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,760 don't know anything about script and it is very hard to do 79 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,040 something on Bitcoin. Then I discovered Solidity and 80 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,920 started building programs on EVM compatible chains. 81 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,600 But after a couple years doing that I realized I want to build 82 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,800 products I don't want to work on like different stuff, building 83 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,120 smart contracts and move on to another thing. 84 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,360 I wanted to build some real products that people can 85 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,640 actually use. And that's how we actually 86 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,800 started our company maybe 2 1/2 years ago in Istanbul with my 87 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,920 friends from college. We initially worked a bit on 88 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:06,040 privacy, when I tell you, and then Ordinals thing came up to 89 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,960 Bitcoin. This was early last year, maybe 90 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,280 around two years ago actually. We saw that some Bitcoin 91 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:16,800 developer built something called Ordinals that enables people to 92 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,760 embed some arbitrary related to Bitcoin. 93 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:20,600 And we thought, OK, this is cool. 94 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,440 What's how this can be even useful. 95 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,800 Then we start, people are actually printing the images on 96 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,960 Bitcoin. Then they try to build exchange 97 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:31,840 to buy and sell this image with Bitcoin. 98 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,800 And then things got more and more interested and we realized, 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,080 OK, people can actually do decentralized exchange on 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,080 Bitcoin. And I previously thought this 101 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,520 was not possible when I first entered the space. 102 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,400 So we wanted to play around it, play around with it. 103 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,680 And in two months we decided to build a basic Ordinals 104 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,480 supporting Bitcoin wallet. In a month we built it released 105 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,080 to the public. And I think in three months we 106 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,760 had more than 10K users. So it was a bit success for us. 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,280 And meanwhile, we also learned a lot about bit script and 108 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,280 Ordinals. And building a wallet is 109 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:11,760 basically you built the foundation for a super app and 110 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,000 we realized, OK, let's just build an exchange in the wallets 111 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,720 and just build an inscription service in the wallets, maybe 112 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,320 even some account abstraction features that we can build. 113 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,640 And around that time, we were doing designs like some paper 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,040 skirts on white board. But eventually our design 115 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,880 converged more and more into building actually a roll up on 116 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,080 Bitcoin because we were trying to add programmability to 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,320 Bitcoin by doing client side validation as Ek proofs because 118 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,480 big B privacy, the ZK pros or privacy. 119 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,600 We knew that how to do how to do it. 120 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,000 And eventually we realized, OK, we are actually reinvent grow 121 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 UPS. And we focused on this direction 122 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,240 and realized, OK, we can actually build roll ups on 123 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,280 Bitcoin today with maybe some broken bridge mechanism, but we 124 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:00,240 could fix it in the long run, we believe. 125 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,520 And then we simply started building, building it. 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,600 This was I think May last year just before ECC and in ECC I 127 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,800 also talked with some roll up builders get some validation and 128 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,280 then fully focused on this idea. Basically, this was our whole 129 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,480 history and then a lot of stuff happened in Bitcoin. 130 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,320 New mine equals came or no's infrastructure changed a lot and 131 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,720 then bit VM paper came out. I think one of the biggest 132 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,760 breakthroughs in like last maybe four or five years in Bitcoin 133 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,880 history, maybe even longer. And then yeah, every simply 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,880 become CITREA to live our Rd. maps and make everything open 135 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,480 source in our GitHub repulsory assistant via the building bus 136 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,760 stop and today's history is live on Bitcoin test at it. 137 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,080 Awesome. Yeah, thanks for for the call 138 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,120 there. So basically you'd say like, I 139 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,760 guess ordinals kind of pave the way to show something is 140 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,520 possible after all, to to bring programmability to to Bitcoin. 141 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,400 And then like bit VM is a is another big breakthrough there. 142 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,080 It sounds like that enables enables also Citria from from my 143 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,600 understand. Can you explain a little bit 144 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,440 what what bit VM does and and how you how you leverage that 145 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,600 for the roll up? Yeah, basically for like to 146 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,400 enable the current form of Citria, you need two things. 147 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,480 One, you need to be able to put your Zetia proofs on Bitcoin, 148 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,960 which is being a must to be a Zika and this is enabled with 149 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,840 not ordinance but inscriptions as the term that enables putting 150 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,640 arbitrary data on Bitcoin. They are not images. 151 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,039 What we put it is just pure byte data, which is the serialized 152 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:38,200 form of the Zika proof. And this is the one thing that 153 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,720 enables CITREA. And I think even most 154 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,159 importantly is we need to be able to verify those proofs on 155 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:47,160 Bitcoin so that we can have a trust minimize breach to move 156 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,160 our Bitcoin from mainstream to CITREA. 157 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,720 And this is enabled with Bit VM basically. 158 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,200 So Bit VM is introduced I think October last year, just exactly, 159 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,720 maybe a year ago by Robin Linus, Bitcoin researcher. 160 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,760 And then it changed a lot since now maybe like 2-3 version came 161 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,840 and is still work in progress. But the most basic idea is we 162 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:13,760 can divide the huge ZK verification algorithm into 163 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,080 chunks and then we can optimistically verify the ZK 164 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,600 proof using these chunks. But we will still get the same 165 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,560 level of security. Because if there's something 166 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:26,560 wrong, someone can challenge the ZK proof and verify a single 167 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:30,760 part of it so that Bitcoin can know ZK proof is correct or not. 168 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,920 So that we can even move the state forwards and continue the 169 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,120 roll up or just slash the adversary operator. 170 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:46,200 Right, OK. And so basically these operators 171 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,800 like are part of the Citria network or how what are like 172 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,680 sort of the roles in in that security network? 173 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,600 Yeah, I think in like regular team secure all OPS, it's very 174 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,800 clear you have like sequencers and then you have the prover. 175 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,800 The sequencer just orders the transaction approver generates 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,960 the proof and verifies on Etherium by just sending to a 177 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,800 smart contract. But in bit VM things are a bit 178 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,360 different that we don't do verification for every single 179 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,320 proof. Instead we just wait and 180 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,760 aggregate them together to save some costs to do a transaction 181 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,280 of Bitcoin. So the idea is we still have a 182 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:24,400 sequence run prover which is run by us and they do the the same 183 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,600 thing with Eteru but they send the proof into Bitcoin but not 184 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,800 immediately verify, they just inscribe full nodes get 185 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,320 confirmation. This is still like an etherium 186 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,440 ZK roll up but then after we have a set set of operators and 187 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,520 verifiers. This is a terminology coming 188 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,520 from BTVM, and these operators are responsible to pay that 189 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,320 people are withdrawing from Citrea. 190 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,880 If you want to withdraw, let's say Bitcoin from Citrea, you 191 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,040 just burn your BTC and request your Bitcoin to some Bitcoin 192 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,720 address. And one of these operators pay 193 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,600 you the Bitcoin. And then after a couple of 194 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,760 weeks, this is currently 14 days, they go to the main chain 195 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,760 and say that look, this is the latest finalized Citrea proof. 196 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,400 And you can see that this user requested this Bitcoin to be 197 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,000 sent. And I actually sent that 198 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,400 Bitcoin. Now I want my Bitcoin back. 199 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,960 And this is simply a proposal that's put into Bitcoin. 200 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,880 And in a week, let's say everyone agreed that this guy is 201 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,720 honest, he actually paid the the user and the proof is correct. 202 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,720 Then they simply sign a transaction and operator gets 203 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,960 reimbursed. But if there's something wrong, 204 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,880 let's say operator is trying to steal money by showing some 205 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,120 invalid CK proof that any of these verifiers can go on chain 206 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,960 and challenge the operator and eventually the operator will get 207 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,600 slashed and it won't be able to get any money from the bridge. 208 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,800 So this is one of Entrust assumption, similar to arbitrary 209 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,720 to date let's say. But on the other side, this is 210 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,840 not an optimistic roll up, it's a ZK roll up. 211 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,760 But the bridging mechanism is optimistic and similar to 212 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,000 Arbitrary's breach. Right. 213 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,120 OK, very interesting. And so these time frames like 214 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,800 14-7 days you mentioned they, they're just like the optimistic 215 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,320 window or are they related to the finality or the chunking of 216 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,040 these proofs or? Yeah. 217 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,360 So the finality is actually still the same with all the roll 218 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,440 ups because Vasvi sent the proof into Bitcoin that all the full 219 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,520 nodes see that proof because they rely on Bitcoin security. 220 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,400 Once that proof is mined the Bitcoin blockchain, then you can 221 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,920 make sure that this is actually final so there cannot be double 222 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,120 spends. The only finality that you need 223 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,880 to wait is while you are withdrawing from the chain and 224 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,720 this also the operator taking their risk because they simply 225 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,960 prepare you and they reimburse later. 226 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,440 So this is all becoming the operators risk and they are 227 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,560 economically incentivized to be honest because if they do 228 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,160 something malicious they will get slashed eventually. 229 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,760 And and their incentive to actually pay you before I guess 230 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,320 it's like sort of almost like intent or something where you 231 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,600 then. Get it like, yeah, it's actually 232 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,720 like an intent. And even our software's intent 233 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,600 as the user simply starts reducing the desired amount 1 by 234 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,520 1 and releasing some signature to the operators just like an 235 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,120 intent saying that I burned 10 Bitcoin and I can get, can I get 236 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,600 like 9.9 BTC And if there's no answer reduced to 9.8 and then 237 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,520 9.7. And eventually one of the 238 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,880 operators become profitable because they, let's say already 239 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,080 have Bitcoin treasury, then they will pay me 9.7 Bitcoin and in 240 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,880 two weeks they will get 10 Bitcoin back. 241 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,640 So they will have 0.3 BTC in profit. 242 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,440 So it's just like an intent. I'm doing fast withdrawal from 243 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,720 the bridge. But the difference from the 244 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,240 Etherium intent is this is the only way of doing withdrawal on 245 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,680 Etherium. Let's say on arbitrary, if you 246 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,640 don't do intent, then you can go to the native bridge, wait seven 247 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,560 days and get your money back. But on Bitcoin, we don't have 248 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:00,880 the coherence, which is a special form of transaction 249 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,560 type, let's say. Then that's why we need those 250 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:08,040 operators to actually pay us. But they're incentivized to pay 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,640 us because we are paying some fee to them in exchange for fast 252 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,040 withdrawal from the chain. Right. 253 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,000 So we meaning that the user of the Citrio roll up or is Citrio 254 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,840 itself also sort of incentivizing these scroll up 255 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,920 potentially the story these operators? 256 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,360 Yeah, the operators are getting some fees and eventually the Rob 257 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,320 can decide at some point, maybe share some transaction fees with 258 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,440 them as well. But right now in our 259 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,160 architecture, their main revenue mechanism is the fees from 260 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,000 withdrawals. And also if there's no 261 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,560 withdrawals, they don't have any cost. 262 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,360 They're just running a hardware that may cost $100 per month. 263 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,560 So it's basically virtual nothing for an operator. 264 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,120 And unless there's a withdrawal, they're happy. 265 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,720 If there's a withdrawal, they're getting fees. 266 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,640 So they're still happy, so nothing to worry about the 267 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,640 economics of operators actually. You're right, right, Right. 268 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,000 OK, cool. Yeah, very interesting. 269 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,240 And so the rest of the constructs, like you said, it's 270 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,520 kind of like normal CK roll up. You have some sequencer, It's 271 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,240 initially centralized maybe at some point. 272 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,680 Yeah. Yeah, it's initially single run 273 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,840 by us together with the Pro. In our road map, we have this 274 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,280 first peer-to-peer network for sequencers so that we can enable 275 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,960 maybe like fast 6 for the notes and then eventually decentralize 276 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,840 the sequencers and maybe also decouple the sequencer with 277 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,400 prover or maybe keep the same so that every, let's say, sequencer 278 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,280 that proposed block should also prove their block. 279 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,120 But it's still in specs. But initially our main Nets will 280 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,600 be single prover and single operator single sequence. 281 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,200 Cool. Yeah, very interesting. 282 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,960 And so this construction relies on bit VMI think there's there's 283 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,280 also like other roll ups in Bitcoin or other ways to bring 284 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,640 programmability. I guess there's also like OP cat 285 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,400 or you know, what are, what's the differences there like on a 286 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,680 high level, I guess and and what are like kind of the trade-offs, 287 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:10,560 Yeah. Yeah. 288 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120 So in the high, in the high level, we know Bitcoin also like 289 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,600 we know lightning like all of us like lightning and it's 290 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,920 eventually proposed payment solution for Bitcoin where we 291 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,440 can open channel between parties and send and receive BTC through 292 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,560 that channels. But lighting has been around 293 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:33,200 maybe look for the last like six years, but still it's way behind 294 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,400 like the scalable to solutions on other chains. 295 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,920 I would say the channels itself is like very interactive and it 296 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800 requires you to manage the liquidity, which is very hard to 297 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,800 do self custodially. That's why I think today 298 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,080 majority of lightning volts are custodial because no user can 299 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,040 run a lightning not very easily if they're not higher technical. 300 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,280 So that's the one thing that's obviously the biggest, the well 301 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,120 known a bit by scale solution. Other than that, there were side 302 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,319 chains has been around since 2014, similar to Polygon to 303 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:06,960 Ethereum. There are many side chains to 304 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,319 Bitcoin, let's say liquid root stalk stacks. 305 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,640 But the side chains, I think now everyone knows this, but back in 306 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,920 those days it was very popular and it was think away to like 307 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,560 scale the Bitcoin. But eventually there are 308 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,960 different chains with their own economics, with their own 309 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,600 validator sets. They need to incentivize their 310 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,920 validator with fees. So they're simply stealing the 311 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,720 fees from Bitcoin main chain and pay to their own operators. 312 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,880 So I wouldn't say like side chains are scalable solutions. 313 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,000 And I think there's also a well known fact in a dreamland too. 314 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,120 That's why most people try to build roll UPS because they're 315 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,200 more aligned with Tel one than side chains. 316 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,280 And other than that, there are still a lot of experimental 317 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,240 stuff like you mentioned OP OP cat, which is a proposed OP code 318 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,160 to be implemented in Bitcoin. And if it get implemented 319 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,240 potentially, theoretically we can build a stark verifier 320 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,160 natively without doing this optimistic challenge response 321 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,040 thing with bit VM so that we can just have a regular like smart 322 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,520 contracts so we can move the state forward. 323 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,520 We can verify the ZK proofs, but Bitcoin social consensus is 324 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,760 hard. Like we we get last software 325 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,840 three years ago it was step route and now it's still a big 326 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,880 mess. Like no one knows which software 327 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,480 should get activated in the future. 328 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,360 There's all PCAT, there's all PCTV, there's great script 329 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,440 restoration, there are all different of holds like software 330 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,120 proposals, but no one like the Bitcoin community hasn't still 331 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,880 agreed on CAT. I think personally I'm in favour 332 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,080 of it because it makes everything much easier. 333 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:52,240 But like I said, there are also potential risks of adding drop 334 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,000 codes because they're open any way to do things which should be 335 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,360 well analysed. But yeah, it's it's complicated 336 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,440 but and very experimental. But today with VM and combined 337 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,520 with rollouts is the best you can get in terms of the security 338 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,480 and the decentralisation. Right, so bit VM doesn't 339 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,480 introduce any new of con any changes it's already. 340 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,360 It just works today. That's that's the video of 341 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,200 Citri, Yeah. Yeah. 342 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,920 But it's also like still developing separately like sort 343 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,320 of the bit VM proposer or is that a team working on that? 344 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,600 Are you contributing to that also or? 345 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,520 Yeah, sorted. Good question. 346 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,640 Yeah, the Bit VM started with Robin's paper and Robin has a 347 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,600 non profit called Zerosync funded by start where a couple 348 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,840 more open source bit by development companies to 349 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,080 actually build ZJ proofs for Bitcoin chain. 350 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,880 But now their focus is Bit VM and it was an open source code 351 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,000 base and it's still open source. Everyone can contribute, but 352 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,240 also five teams including our team and Zerosync for something 353 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,840 called Bit VM Alliance. This was actually two weeks ago. 354 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,720 That the alliance is trying to complete the BTM implementation 355 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,040 in the next 100 days to actually put them proof on main that and 356 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,920 verify it. Because open source development 357 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,280 is great, but it's without coordination. 358 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,960 We are all working on the same issues without knowing what we 359 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,520 are doing. So this allies is mainly 360 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,840 coordination mechanism between the major contributors of the 361 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,000 BIT VM. But other than that there are 362 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,320 still many teams opening PRS to BIT VM contributing to it. 363 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,880 The allies is just a coordination mechanism. 364 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,360 Like I said, they're not owning the BIT VM repository or the 365 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,360 idea. It is still fully open source. 366 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,000 Awesome. Yeah, that's really cool. 367 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Sounds sounds great. And so the that will like the 368 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,000 next 100 days like 2 weeks ago. So I guess like. 369 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,320 Yeah, yeah, around 2-3. Months some point next quarter. 370 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,680 Yeah. Actually like end of this year 371 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,800 is their target because they become a bit like started a bit 372 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,280 early. We have a internal BT MSDK team 373 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,200 that's fully contributing and they're actually much more 374 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,120 optimistic than end of the year to do a proof of concept. 375 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,400 But obviously something needs to be run on main net and it should 376 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,800 require like a lot of audits, maybe even some like head 377 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,680 reports to put on maintenance. But eventually the proof of 378 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,160 concept hopefully will become much more short. 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,600 Right. Cool, awesome. 380 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,000 Yeah, I think that was great overview of how you're building 381 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,760 and why, how, what's possible in Bitcoin. 382 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,240 I I guess the, the other element that I definitely wanted to talk 383 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,400 about today is sort of the Citria application and and 384 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,440 developer ecosystem you mentioned, right. 385 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,040 You started from building a wallet and actually trying to 386 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,520 build applications. Now it seems like you're, you're 387 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,400 building the infra first, but there's there's also the 388 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,600 developer and application side. Can you explain a bit? 389 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,400 You know what was there? How, how does it work? 390 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,160 You mentioned EVM compatibility in the beginning too. 391 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,280 So in the initial phase we like you said, we were exploring our 392 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,880 own ideas to build to direct to this board. 393 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,000 And once we discovered we are actually building the roll up, 394 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,160 our initial idea was this, I don't know, maybe app specific 395 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,640 roll up to do some dates for ordinals or to do landing 396 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,600 borrowing of Bitcoin. But eventually we we said this 397 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,160 infrastructure is extremely hard to build like the bit VM taking 398 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,760 a year to even a proof of concept implementation. 399 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,920 So if you do multiple apps specific roll ups, then we need 400 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,800 different briefs for all of them and we need more developments. 401 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,840 So we say we already have like a lot of modular piece that's been 402 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,400 developed. And I tell you, and we also like 403 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,240 group builders for Bitcoin and I tell you for for years and let's 404 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,280 just combine them, improve them and make them for compatible so 405 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,640 that we can enable all the developers to just come and 406 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,200 deploy their applications here without going through all the 407 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,360 infrastructure challenges. And that's why we choose to be 408 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,120 fully VM compatible. Right now our test set is type 2 409 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,840 ZKEVM, which means it's fully compatible. 410 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,280 You don't have to change anything or any test. 411 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,440 You just deploy the same contracts from a main chain to 412 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,880 here and they just work. The only changing thing is the 413 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,680 block structure, like the guest limit, which doesn't affect the 414 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,160 applications. So that's why we choose to be 415 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:25,920 type 2 ZKVM, because we want the finance world to be run on 416 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,120 Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the most 417 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:30,880 decentralized blockchain and it's most secure blockchain 418 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,720 that's been running more than 15 years and it's the most 419 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,400 censorship president chain today. 420 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,520 So what we want is actually, and also it has a pretty precious 421 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,720 asset called BTC, which is the sound money and probably the 422 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,280 best performing asset so far that I I encountered that. 423 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,560 But the main problem with Bitcoin was if you want to use 424 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,280 that precious assets in finance, you have to trust someone right 425 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,520 on main chain. You can only do payments and 426 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,440 it's also a bit conscious sometimes, so you cannot even do 427 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,480 payments. So most people did was just 428 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,080 deposit there, basically see to some custodian and then land 429 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,720 USDT there and use some decks to do not decks but use some 430 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,480 exchange to do some swaps. But this is against the whole 431 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600 point of Bitcoin. The Satoshi in the white paper 432 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,680 said that the payments without going through a financial 433 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,160 institution, but the Bitcoin eventually evolves to something 434 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,400 that people are using BTC the assets, but not the Bitcoin 435 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,760 blockchain or not any blockchain that will have Mac custodial 436 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,720 properties. So it's I think a bit diverged 437 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,880 from the main vision of Bitcoin and what we try to do is enable 438 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,280 developers to build actually non custodial and trust, minimize 439 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,320 applications so that none of these people has to go financial 440 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,880 and custodial infrastructure providers to use their Bitcoin. 441 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,800 They should be able to just move their BTC here, hold their own 442 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,880 keys and do anything they want. And even we can make the UX 443 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,120 better. We have now a contact structure 444 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,760 support we have now, let's say we can just use the secret 445 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,480 enclave on the mobile phone to sign transactions. 446 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,200 We don't have to carry any more hardware volts. 447 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,720 We don't have to worry about the let's say inheritance because 448 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,200 because we can't just design A world smart contract. 449 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,080 But it is not possible to do a Bitcoin L1 today. 450 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,600 So that's why we just want to like build the infrastructure to 451 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,680 make UX better, make non custodial apps work on Bitcoin 452 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,560 and then we leave rest of the developers to actually build the 453 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,640 final applications to the end users so that we can actually 454 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,520 achieve the final with Commission. 455 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,520 Right, right. And I guess it also relies a lot 456 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,800 on what is already there, like you said, the EVM space and what 457 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,560 was built there just sort of settling on because how do you 458 00:25:54,560 --> 00:26:00,120 see Citriate then interacting kind of with other EVM or like 459 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:04,360 this, this ecosystem sort of outside of Bitcoin, both from 460 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:08,280 the side of as a roller, but also in terms of the developer 461 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920 ecosystem and attracting these developers? 462 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,520 From a technical perspective, one can also get the Citra 463 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,960 proofs inscribed from Bitcoin and then verify them on Etherium 464 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,440 or some other chain to actually build a trust, minimize bridge 465 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,440 between Citra and Etherium. So it's it's also very easy to 466 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,200 do and our infrastructure allows that. 467 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,240 But there are more practical, interpretable solutions that can 468 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,720 be used today. Hyperlane recently deployed on 469 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,760 our test. That's where you can configure 470 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,320 your security model and run just the message passing so that you 471 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,760 can build token breeds. You can build other things, but 472 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,200 eventually we believe people will want to move CBTC from 473 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,160 Citriate to other chains too. But in the long run, we expect 474 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,960 all of them to come here fast. We solve everything about 475 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,240 infrastructure, like making it fully scalable, making it cheap 476 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,000 and reliable. But until then, we also expect 477 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,520 some other ecosystems would want to have that bitcoint with their 478 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,400 ecosystem so they can build any interpretable solution they 479 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,040 want. For the for the developers, we 480 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,200 recently launched Citrio Origins, which is our like 481 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,880 one-of-a-kind incubator program that we support developers from 482 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,360 the product ideation, the road map, the actual engineering and 483 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,680 the branding growth go to market, fundraising, everything 484 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,520 a crypto startup which my startup needs. 485 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,200 We just provide everything to them. 486 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,880 This is a part of our latest funding grounds. 487 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,920 That's like one of the main purposes that we do that's 488 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,480 funding ground is to actually have enough human poverty side 489 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,280 to support multiple Bitcoin applications to go to market. 490 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,880 And those applications will just be EVM based. 491 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,840 And this means you can also build like applications on 492 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,040 Citrea, but you can also deploy your own roll ups on Citrea. 493 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,720 Just like L2S on Italy, we can actually deploy L3S on Citrea. 494 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,080 And then you can customize your infrastructure. 495 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,920 You can choose different VM, you can choose different DA layers. 496 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,320 If your application requires, let's say, millisecond 497 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,400 confirmations, you can also build that on Citrea by 498 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,440 deploying another chain on top of Citrea. 499 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,080 So it's just like the endless possibilities, but using PTC as 500 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,560 a native token and getting the full Bitcoin security to those 501 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,920 applications. And this is just a tool for us 502 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,440 to get those developers and help them to build their vision, just 503 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,520 supporting them from zero to 100 and then just gifting a Bitcoin 504 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,840 app to the Bitcoiners space, right? 505 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,800 Right, right. So like one of the main things 506 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,560 is also that PTC is the a gas token on the L2 Citrio, right. 507 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,400 And yeah, OK. And you mentioned CBTCI, guess 508 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,720 that's all your changes BTC? Just the naming of BTC, yeah. 509 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,240 We just wanted to make it easier for people to understand because 510 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,640 especially like in exchange, it's just a mess. 511 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,000 Like you want to withdraw BTC to some other chain and you get 512 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,280 some random Rev BTC that you don't know the name of. 513 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,680 That's why we just keep CBTC citri BTC. 514 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,120 But it is one to one PEC to BTC. So there is no further change 515 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,160 and there's no Rep and given, Yeah. 516 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,200 Yeah, Yeah, yeah. OK, OK. 517 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,160 I guess I get it. OK. 518 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,400 I I guess it's interesting because also on Ethereum or like 519 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,040 the BTCS that go around right now, like, yeah, a lot of them 520 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,280 are custodial like like you mentioned earlier. 521 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,640 So custodial every like. Yeah. 522 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,640 So if people want to use that in, let's say, I don't know, 523 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,200 mistaking or landing borrowing, right or in define general, 524 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,840 right now there's not like super great, no custodial solutions. 525 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,400 So I guess CBTC could be one of those. 526 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,880 Exactly like obvious trustless for like lenders and borrowers, 527 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,040 right. Instead of like excluding the 528 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,960 Oracle risk. And if you use WTC on our way, 529 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400 it is the same as using finance lending application or whatever 530 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,120 because we still have fully trusting Bitco to not drug your 531 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,200 collateral. So it's fundamentally different 532 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,480 than what we are building. We want to achieve both. 533 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,760 We want to have my custodial BTC as assets and we want to have 534 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,440 Bitcoin secure applications as we can be fully trusted and 535 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,600 decentralized. Right. 536 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:21,440 Yeah, Yeah. Awesome. 537 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,440 Cool, I guess. Yeah, that's basically like 538 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,520 maybe two days like sort of final, let's say part of the 539 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,360 interview or like podcast where we like sort of maybe can talk 540 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,960 about guess Bitcoin defy in general or also like, you know, 541 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,160 what I'm sort of interested is, is there anything you see that's 542 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,760 like kind of unique to Bitcoin coming in that world? 543 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,000 Or is it more just that Bitcoin is just a better form of 544 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,120 collateral given like it's history and, and, and all these 545 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,360 elements of it? So Bitcoin is definitely better 546 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,960 form of cultural and the better form of money as a policy, I 547 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,080 would say. And let's start with the Bitcoin 548 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,800 blockchain. It's a very special blockchain 549 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,360 still running proof of work with the biggest hash rates, has a 550 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,800 really big market. And like I said, it's the most 551 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,640 censorship of blockchain today. It's not great. 552 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,720 We still have minor centralization, but it's still 553 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,040 better than a lot of other chains who produce blocks with 554 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,040 like off a compliance blocks, the set. 555 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,240 So fully compliant blocks are very popular with some other 556 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,280 blockchains, but not on Bitcoin. So in here patrol ups actually 557 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,600 what what speed level is the rollups end game is to also 558 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,640 enable forced inclusion of transactions from the base 559 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,360 there, right? So the rollups are, let's say 560 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,640 simply makes the safety fully inherited, but they sometimes 561 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,480 lack the lightness so that they're single sequence or even 562 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,960 though there's multiple sequence or it's not the same as the 563 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,960 Bitcoin network, but that we can enable forced inclusion so that 564 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,280 people can't send their transaction to Bitcoin and those 565 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,960 transactions will be run on Citrea. 566 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,920 It has to be run on Citrea basically. 567 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,760 So that's the whole point of forced transactions or roll ups 568 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,800 as the Bitcoin is the most sensitive present layer. 569 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,480 Yeah, for the important financial activities on CITREA, 570 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,360 Bitcoin is the best base there because you can just send your 571 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,400 transaction and it will get mines maybe 90% sure. 572 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560 And that those transactions has to be executed on CITREA. 573 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,360 That's why I think it's important to build a proof of 574 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,120 work and censorship like Bitcoin. 575 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,120 Now the second aspect is obviously BTCS assets compared 576 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,160 to the other currencies, but Bitcoin has the best product 577 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,680 market fit for payments, right? It's still like it's still not 578 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,720 great. I think most people prefer to 579 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,480 get like USDC or USDT because ATG is more stable. 580 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,240 But but compared to let's say EAT, BTC is widely used in 581 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,640 payments, but it is not. And there are still a lot of 582 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,840 good improvements done on the Ethereum scalability side, which 583 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,520 enables very cheap payments. But no one is using them because 584 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,240 they don't want to use ETA's payment tool. 585 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,000 But what we can do is simply just get all this infrastructure 586 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,120 run on Citrea and use Bitcoin as payment token inside that 587 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,800 payment scalability solutions basically. 588 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,840 So the payments are one of the my main like things that I want 589 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,800 to see that should it should be better than lightning and with 590 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,720 EVM port like just Citri, you can build everything without 591 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,920 channels like the ZK pro verification if you want if you 592 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,280 want to do client side verification, you can do that. 593 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,120 So it should be better than lightning. 594 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,360 And the second thing is obviously privacy, but there's 595 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,280 no today privacy on better Bisco and L1. 596 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,680 And it's because you you don't have enough upholds to build, 597 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,040 let's say, pools or whatever, but you can build a very good 598 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,880 privacy tools on Citrea. We we know like trail down from 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,800 Ethereum. We've worked with them maybe in 600 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,280 the past or so, but it's it's a great tool to be held on 601 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,040 Bitcoin. And the third thing is the 602 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,320 lending borrowing, because Bitcoin is actually like should 603 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,840 be widely used as a cultural and we just need to enable it to do 604 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,600 my custody land trustlessly by basically having a landing porn 605 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,400 or citrius. So this will be make my maybe 606 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,520 prioritize for Bitco and applications. 607 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,960 Right, right, right. Yeah, makes sense. 608 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,239 OK, very interesting. And so, yeah, I guess the, the 609 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,120 core of it comes down to like sort of the, the proof of work 610 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,880 and, and the history of, of Bitcoin, which which I guess 611 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,400 that's always the core argument is there? 612 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,040 Or like, how do you see it then evolving? 613 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,040 I guess, you know, we all know like block reward is going down, 614 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,160 but basically like the roll ups would counteract because they 615 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:59,440 create like this, this proof transactions. 616 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,480 How much is that? Or like, could you see that 617 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,320 becoming like sort of the main source of fees for for Bitcoin 618 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,960 itself at some point? Yeah. 619 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,840 So Bitcoin issuance like you said is every four years it just 620 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,320 goes half and eventually it will converge to 0. 621 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:18,720 And at that point Bitcoin miners incentive is transaction fees. 622 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,880 And if no one is actually using Bitcoin blockchain, but if 623 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,920 everyone uses BTC as set in let's say custodial 624 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,240 applications, then Bitcoin miners won't get any fees and 625 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:31,480 Bitcoin blockchain will become much less secure than today. 626 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,040 So with roll ups, roll ups are using the L1 as the DA layer. 627 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:41,360 So we post our data to Bitcoin in the form of ZK proofs and 628 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,200 state diffs, which is a bit more optimized form of just sending 629 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,440 pure transaction data and we compress them, send them to 630 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,680 Bitcoin. So we do two things at the same 631 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,800 time. We achieve the Bitcoin level 632 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,040 security because the data is there and we also pay minors to 633 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,240 be incentivized to keep the hash rate high and get more fees and 634 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,520 just continue the chain without reducing its security. 635 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,960 So we do these two things, which is extremely helpful to Bitcoin. 636 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,400 And at the same time, we do transaction cooperation with CK 637 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,800 proofs. So it's not as expensive as 638 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,320 doing a transaction on the other one. 639 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,720 It is much more cheaper, but collectively it helps Bitcoin to 640 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,320 be sustainable and also to be scalable. 641 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,400 So yeah, that's the main problem with all the proof of change. 642 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,560 And I don't think bit other than like something other than 643 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,320 Bitcoin will survive in the long run. 644 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,240 And if Bitcoin needs to survive, people need to use Bitcoin and 645 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,480 maybe just in a form of single transactions or roll ups, 646 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,840 basically send all the data to Bitcoin. 647 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,240 Right. Have you done like some sort of 648 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,160 simulation for how much Sidrea would pay on like Bitcoin main 649 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,560 net for like some operation? Does it depend on like the load 650 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,640 on Sidrea also? Exactly because it's state tips, 651 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,480 it depends on like how much. Like if we are all using the 652 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,680 same Unix web pool, the state will be extremely small. 653 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,120 But if we are using all different Unix web pools, the 654 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,200 size will be huge. But we did some statistical 655 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,800 analysis using like some paths that are blocks on user behavior 656 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,960 and creates an analytic. And today I think in our test 657 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,160 Nets, this is the like real numbers on test Nets, but the 658 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,040 feed rate is exactly mirrored to our roll up. 659 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,280 And right now the data size of doing a Bitcoin transfer on 660 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,680 Citra is 15 times smaller than doing it on Bitcoin main Nets. 661 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,640 So even though feed rates change, you can expect that we 662 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,760 reduce just the sent transaction 15 times than the mainnet. 663 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,440 This is maybe like somewhat same for other things, but we cannot 664 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,600 understand because there is no tax on Bitcoin. 665 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,400 We don't know the cost of tax on Bitcoin, but it should be maybe 666 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,040 like somewhere around between a terrium and a terrium roll UPS. 667 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,520 Not as cheap as a terrium roll UPS for sure, but not as 668 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,000 expensive as a terrium also. So maybe somewhere in between we 669 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,400 can estimate the transaction cost, but there's no strict 670 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,520 numbers for it. Interesting. 671 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,680 So right now it would be I guess like an order of magnitude lower 672 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,200 maybe And like what, What does that mean? 673 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,120 Like what? What would like a normal cent on 674 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:23,160 Citriar cost in this 15X lower I guess as we record here 31st 675 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,640 October. Yeah. 676 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,520 I think like today's on the like the main net fees are somewhere 677 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,080 around like $0.10 or something like that. 678 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,320 So, so a Bitcoin transfer should definitely below $1.00 to the 679 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,520 CITREA, maybe even up like below $0.10. 680 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,680 But no matter the feed rate, it will be 15 times cheaper if you 681 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,480 do that transaction today because we just reflect the same 682 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,120 feed rate of Bitcoin to CITREA because we just sent all the 683 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,480 transactions there. We need to keep the rates as the 684 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,640 same, but we just compress the transaction. 685 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,320 And I guess in the that's with the current architecture could 686 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,760 like further compress more if there's like more improvements 687 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,560 with VMZK. Exactly, the ZK improvements are 688 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,360 the main thing. And the second thing is we are 689 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,520 now also changing the architecture to embed stateful 690 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,000 status, which means that let's say if you do a transaction, 691 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,400 your compressed address is written into Bitcoin. 692 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,320 And if you do a second transaction, we we no longer use 693 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,000 your address, we just use your index to put. 694 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:25,200 So we reduce the data size a lot. 695 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,920 That's still work in progress, not live on test net. 696 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,480 But yeah, in the long run, the idea is CK proof systems will be 697 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,800 much worse faster so that we can do more, let's say proofs per 698 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,160 time and we can compress more. And with state will state this, 699 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,320 we will achieve optimal compression as well. 700 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,040 Awesome. OK, very cool. 701 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,760 Yeah, maybe one, one final like sort of question before we 702 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,960 slowly like RIP up is I guess you're you're all the team you 703 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,920 mentioned you were from Istanbul in Turkey. 704 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,520 You want to share a bit like how I guess that's, that's a big 705 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,400 community that's emerging there. How how and also it has like 706 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,440 interest in. Bitcoin from sort of like 707 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,520 inflationary perspective. So yeah, maybe you can share a 708 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,360 bit how that's going, how you're growing that or like your 709 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:15,840 thoughts there. Yeah. 710 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,000 So like I said, all my Co founders on our base and is 711 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,240 stumbled actually like I'd say majority of our team is also in 712 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,680 Istanbul. We have an office start, but 713 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,480 yeah, that's how we grew up. Like my maybe like since high 714 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,200 school, all I saw was inflation, Turkish lira going to zero 715 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,280 against dollar and other currencies, especially against 716 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,480 Bitcoin to just Bitcoin does all time high maybe every day in 717 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,880 Turkey, no matter the ESD price because either ESD goes up or 718 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,040 Bitcoin goes up or Turkish lira. But yeah, that's also like how I 719 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,920 got into crypto, that I was getting scholarship through 720 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,480 crypto because it's a much more freer form of doing money 721 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,520 transfers. And it's also raises something 722 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,680 against the inflation. This was 2018 or 19, I think. 723 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,080 And yeah, that's that's how we got into. 724 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,640 But in the Turkey, there are like just some developer groups 725 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,680 that's still like getting bigger and bigger. 726 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,600 We definitely like help them with their products. 727 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,520 If they have ideas, we want to support them. 728 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,040 We do for a couple. I think we will announce more in 729 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,120 the coming days. But let's like I said, we are 730 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,840 just supporting all the local builders. 731 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,840 And at the same time, there is this retail user base which 732 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,520 mainly holds, I would say, USDT, not Bitcoin, because it's still 733 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,840 more volatile compared to the USDT for Turkish persons. 734 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,440 But the main thing is also they don't know how to use the self 735 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,480 custodial tools. So they use the most basic thing 736 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,920 which is Binance. And they just use the USDT on 737 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,240 Binance or USDC, whatever, so that they can just cheaply send 738 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,320 it around or just convert to the cash. 739 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,320 But I think market on Turkey is really big, especially if we can 740 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,720 onboard them to Bitcoin because it's better than USD for 741 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:08,760 monetary policy. And if we can make also like 742 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,800 something to receiving Bitcoin and holding Bitcoin easier, then 743 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,840 I don't see any reason to like just dump start on USDT. 744 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,240 Right, right. Yeah, that's, that's just super 745 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,280 interesting how big the adoption in that sense is. 746 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,000 And maybe the step towards going full non custodial is actually 747 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,720 much shorter than what it is in like the Western world. 748 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,920 Yep. For sure. 749 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,960 Cool. I think yeah, it covered a lot 750 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,160 of ground and yeah, Congrats on the fundraise. 751 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,520 I guess you'll this might go out shortly after. 752 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,880 Is there any any final things you want to share with our 753 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,640 audience or where to learn more about how to build? 754 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,560 Exactly, thanks for having me. I think we covered a lot of like 755 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,160 technical and non-technical stuff. 756 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,240 For technical stuff, they can always furnace our GitHub, which 757 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:58,560 is open source, our repositories and our documentation, our web 758 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,360 pages, CITREA dot XYZ and the territory CITREA under score XYZ 759 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,280 so that you can see all the resources there. 760 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,360 But the other than that, if you're a builder and developer, 761 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920 I want to be a part of this Citrio urgency incubation 762 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,480 program. And just hit us up, there's form 763 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,360 on the web page as well. We just do one-on-one meetings 764 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,200 with all the builders that's applying. 765 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:20,080 Yeah. In general, what we want to 766 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,760 achieve is the end goal of Bitcoin, what I imagine is the 767 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,640 hyper bitcoinization where all the other currencies getting 768 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,240 hyperinflated and the Bitcoin at the same time getting adopted. 769 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,440 The hyperinflation is happening on other countries like 770 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,360 Argentina, like Turkey, like Zimbabwe, but the hyper Bitcoin 771 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,960 resolution is also slowly coming. 772 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,600 We just need the enough infrastructure to actually 773 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,840 achieve scalable and trust minimize and like custodial 774 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,000 applications. And then once we see the 775 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,280 creative applications, the adoption will be much more 776 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,400 higher, potentially bigger than that, probably bigger than all 777 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,360 the crypto and potentially bigger than the webtube as well 778 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,600 in the long run. So if you are a builder, just 779 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,320 like I said, just hit me up or apply from before. 780 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,400 I think that's all. Awesome. 781 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:08,480 Sounds great. Thanks everyone. 782 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,880 Thanks for coming on and you are great to see you. 783 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,000 Thank you, Felix. Thanks for having me.