1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,400
This is epicenter episode 491 
with guest Tim lock, myth from 

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:20,800
Akbar. 
Welcome to Epson a to show which

3
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,200
talks about the Technologies 
projects and people driving 

4
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,300
decentralization and the 
blockchain revolution. 

5
00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:28,500
I'm Brian Crane and I'm here 
today with my hair Roy and 

6
00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:32,500
today, we're going to speak. 
If Tim locked my f f, who is the

7
00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:37,300
founder of Akbar. 
Akbar is ZK, roll up, any, 

8
00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:40,900
theorem, ZK, roll up. 
That's built on irbid and, you 

9
00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:43,100
know, probably a lot of people 
People are going to be like, 

10
00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:46,300
what the hell? 
So we're going to like uncover 

11
00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:49,300
all that and, you know, get to 
the bottom and hopefully you'll 

12
00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:53,500
come away with an understanding 
of what opens up to it. 

13
00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:56,900
Which is pretty exciting. 
So, thanks so much for joining 

14
00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:59,300
us teamwork. 
Yeah, it's great to be great to 

15
00:00:59,308 --> 00:01:00,500
be here. 
Thanks for having me, guys. 

16
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,000
Cool. 
Well, maybe she'll also make me 

17
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,800
a brief disclaimer hair. 
So my hair and I, of course, our

18
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,200
co-founders, of course, one and 
we have invested in Akbar. 

19
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,300
And also personally and have 
been sort of involved in 

20
00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:22,900
partnership with them as well. 
So, when I mentioned that, not 

21
00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:26,100
much though, so a little bit 
little bit, you just a minor 

22
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:33,000
minor disclaimer. 
All right, so let's get into it.

23
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,200
I'm actually one thing I'm 
curious about is did you first 

24
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,600
get involved in crypto or in 
orbit and what was sort of this 

25
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,200
journey that you had into this 
into this world, okay? 

26
00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:49,800
So the answer is actually like a
better question even than it 

27
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,000
sounds because I think the 
answer is first into crypto for 

28
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,500
sure. 
So I was like one of the people 

29
00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:58,500
who bought Bitcoin near the top 
in 2013 at the end and was like 

30
00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:01,900
sort of into it sort of around 
and Like I remember actually, in

31
00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:05,500
2016, getting back in and like 
investing in it then and 

32
00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:07,300
actually listening to epicenter 
at the time. 

33
00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:09,500
I remember taking like random 
walks around, I think it was in 

34
00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:11,400
Estonia or something. 
That's small town. 

35
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,300
Listen listening to epicenter 
trying to sort of boost myself 

36
00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,900
back up on, where crypto was at 
then. 

37
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,800
And as that year went and threw 
like the Ico, boom. 

38
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,200
I was like, programming in 
solidity, doing a lot of stuff 

39
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,100
there. 
And I think I actually remember 

40
00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:30,500
encountering orbit, then, sort 
of looking at over. 

41
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,400
And doing the thing that I 
sometimes do, which is something

42
00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,600
I try to stop myself from doing,
which is sort of dismissing it 

43
00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,600
too fast for a simple reason or 
dismissing things too fast for 

44
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,900
simple reasons. 
So I looked at it and I was like

45
00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:45,100
oh this is cool. 
I see what they're trying to do 

46
00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:47,800
in terms of having this, you 
know, Global peer-to-peer 

47
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,400
Network that can coordinate 
easily. 

48
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,400
But I can probably just do that 
with aetherium like I think this

49
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,900
was at a time before like in 
2018. 

50
00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,000
If you remember, if your am just
had all these scaling issues 

51
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,700
that were unanticipated, Like 
with plasma and stuff like that.

52
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,000
And people ran into a lot of 
challenges there. 

53
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,700
And but in 2016, 2017 it was 
like, okay, probably will figure

54
00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:10,300
this out. 
This will be great. 

55
00:03:10,300 --> 00:03:13,200
I think also at the time, the 
challenges of kind of stitching 

56
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,900
together peer-to-peer apps with 
lots of pieces weren't known. 

57
00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:19,900
So with all that I was like, I 
get whatever it's going for but 

58
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,600
you know, I think if you're am 
is new it's like seems to be on 

59
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,900
track to solve those things. 
If not it, some other similar 

60
00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:28,100
like blockchain system. 
And so I basically just put her 

61
00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:30,400
back to the side to then and did
not look. 

62
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,600
At it again, until I think it 
was late, 2019 must have been 

63
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,700
October or so. 
Okay, cool. 

64
00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:41,300
And then you joined us and then 
you join Clon as well. 

65
00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:44,500
Like what's the story of how you
ended up at long? 

66
00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:48,900
Yeah, so I got back into urban 
or checked it out again, not 

67
00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:51,900
even back then, I wasn't it 
first in late 2019 because one 

68
00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:53,700
of my friends who was friends 
with Rob. 

69
00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:56,400
This regular one of the main 
core developers at Salon was 

70
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,300
like, oh yeah, I'm hanging out 
with, you know, Ted Robin has 

71
00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:01,600
Rec far. 
He's really into orbit and doing

72
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,700
it, but I think it's stupid and 
it's not going to work. 

73
00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:06,300
So then I checked it out again, 
at that point, just to see where

74
00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:10,100
it Was, I had more free time and
I was just like, an outside 

75
00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:13,700
Community member. 
I started, I got really into it 

76
00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:16,800
in May 20-22 during like the 
covid stuff. 

77
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,200
When I had a lot of free time, I
started first figuring out how 

78
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,500
they're sort of Assembly 
Language, knock worked wrote a 

79
00:04:22,508 --> 00:04:26,600
tutorial about that. 
Then decided like, okay I want 

80
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,000
to write a tutorial for how to 
just write programs on the 

81
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,000
system in general because there 
wasn't anything like that. 

82
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,800
So did that on my own as a 
community? 

83
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,200
Member at this time there were 
probably like 45 Community 

84
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,100
programmers, who weren't working
for Tuan? 

85
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:44,200
In our bit was very small kept 
doing that over the summer, then

86
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,200
wallet and late 2020, mid-2020s,
something like that. 

87
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,700
And after I sort of finished up 
with that, in the beginning of 

88
00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:55,500
2021, I joined what became the, 
ER, B foundation. 

89
00:04:55,500 --> 00:05:00,000
So, it wasn't exactly tan. 
I was working for like Josh, 

90
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,700
who's now the head of the, ER, 
but Foundation kind of was like,

91
00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:04,900
do you want to come with me and 
sort of be, I guess, more, or 

92
00:05:04,907 --> 00:05:07,900
less technical director? 
Of this New Foundation, where 

93
00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:12,200
you sort of, you know, figure 
out things in the ecosystem. 

94
00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:15,600
Like, help people on board, show
them how to program. 

95
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,600
It figure out what kind of 
Technical Resources to make. 

96
00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:23,300
And so I did that for most of 20
21 and I think the biggest sort 

97
00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:28,200
of achievement of that time was 
like up until then all the 

98
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,600
people who knew how to write 
orbit practically or most of 

99
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,000
them were working for to Lon and
it was very much like in order 

100
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,800
to programmer, but you had to 
become a clone employee or very 

101
00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,300
closely affiliated. 
And kind of be taught the 

102
00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:40,600
secrets. 
And I think what we did 

103
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,000
successfully is we were able to 
kind of prove the hypothesis 

104
00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:47,300
that you could onboard 
programmers, to Herb. 

105
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,700
It fairly straightforwardly. 
And there wasn't anything overly

106
00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:53,700
complex about it, which people 
definitely worried about before 

107
00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,200
then. 
So yeah, I never worked for 

108
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,700
flan, but I guess at that time, 
the foundation until on, we're 

109
00:05:58,700 --> 00:06:01,300
so close in the foundation was 
just splitting off that, you 

110
00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:04,500
know, I may as well have I was 
on like, they're, you know, all 

111
00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:06,000
hands calls and things like 
that. 

112
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,200
But we were very We much trying 
to make this like outside thing 

113
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,700
that would be able to 
successfully on board people, 

114
00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:13,300
without them needing to go and 
work for tall. 

115
00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:15,100
And I think I'm, you know, 
looking back. 

116
00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:18,600
It's just a very proud 
achievement like it worked like,

117
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,500
you know, the foundation became 
its own thing. 

118
00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:23,900
Soon after I left people keep 
learning it, there's way more, 

119
00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:26,000
you know, net. 
When I started there were a few 

120
00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:28,600
like five orbit programmers, not
until on. 

121
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,000
Now, there's probably a couple 
hundred. 

122
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,900
So, yeah, that was what I did 
and I was yeah, pretty happy 

123
00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:35,700
with how it all went, like more 
so than most things go in life. 

124
00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:40,600
You know, as if we've done a few
podcasts about irbid, the did 

125
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,900
the podcast actually long time 
ago in 2017, I think my hair and

126
00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:49,600
I did a podcast with gaalan 
which is sort of how we learn 

127
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,200
about herb, it and got kind of 
involved a little bit and then 

128
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,300
more recently, we did one, I did
one with Josh at that. 

129
00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:01,200
You just mentioned, who's the 
executive director of the 

130
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,900
Iroquois nation and then also 
did one with Till atoll, boss. 

131
00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:11,600
And with you mentioned, Ted, 
who's the technical director of 

132
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,700
the foundation. 
So, with that being said, still 

133
00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:19,100
most people write in crypto 
don't really understand or wait.

134
00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:23,800
They're confused. 
So, how do you explain irbid 

135
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,000
like, There's kind of two 
directions that you can come at 

136
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,000
it from one is sort of taking 
herb it and saying how this has 

137
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,900
good features for crypto and how
it works. 

138
00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:39,400
Well I actually prefer the other
direction which is you take 

139
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,200
crypto and you start to say okay
why do we not have very rich 

140
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,300
like daps, what's standing 
between us and there and what do

141
00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:50,900
we wish? 
We had to make better ones and I

142
00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:54,100
think as you do work through 
that, you almost start to 

143
00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,000
independently inventor bit. 
Like you know, leaving it's a 

144
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,100
Newton like both doing calculus 
like on the side. 

145
00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:01,900
You can actually sort of 
reinvent Urban in this way which

146
00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:04,500
is you say, like, okay we don't 
have great daps. 

147
00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:06,200
Why is that? 
Well, let's look at what kind of

148
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,700
dabs are successful. 
Definitely like the biggest 

149
00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:12,400
successes are things like like 
swapping and lending by far, 

150
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,000
like Ave unit swap. 
Things like that. 

151
00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:17,600
There's nothing those all. 
We could also look at nft like 

152
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,100
training, protocols, like open 
sea or blur and in all these 

153
00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:24,700
cases, almost, all of the 
interesting action is happening 

154
00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:27,100
on chain. 
Well, you know, swamp is like 

155
00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:28,700
amazing because they were 
actually able to take some of 

156
00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:31,600
the people thought, had to be 
done mostly off chain and get it

157
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,700
all on chain. 
Similarly with like the lending 

158
00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:35,900
protocols and how they handle, 
you know, liquidations and 

159
00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:38,900
things like that. 
Which is very, very cool. 

160
00:08:39,299 --> 00:08:43,100
The thing is in all of this 
there, trying not to have heavy 

161
00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:45,500
off, Shane components. 
Which I think if you talk to 

162
00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:48,300
people in aetherium and crypto 
in general, like in like the 

163
00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,400
cosmos ecosystem, like probably 
seven eight years ago they would

164
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,200
have said, you know what, we all
know that like blockchains have 

165
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,200
this limited capacity. 
So expecting going forward that 

166
00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,200
the will find ways to do lots of
action off chain and then settle

167
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,500
the main things on chain and in 
to some degree. 

168
00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:06,000
If you even look at like the 
sick like successful l2s, 

169
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,100
they've done that where they've 
been able to do that, like do 

170
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:09,900
that somewhat. 
But in general for applications,

171
00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:13,600
it's very, very hard because the
problem at the end of the day is

172
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,700
if you want your application to 
be decentralized, not even for 

173
00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:20,300
like religious reasons or like, 
you know, privacy reasons. 

174
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:23,000
But just for, you know, if you 
do a centralized service, it's 

175
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,200
easy to shut down. 
You can't offer all the features

176
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,500
you want. 
It's iterate on if you want to 

177
00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,200
do a decentralized app, you now 
have to distribute this app to 

178
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,100
all of your users and keep them 
up-to-date in the right versions

179
00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:36,800
handle, all this stuff and if 
you don't do that or it falls 

180
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:42,000
apart at all, it's just kind of 
gross and so because that's so 

181
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,500
hard, I think people thought 
it's hard like okay some whiny 

182
00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:48,800
engineer's need to work harder 
for three or four months but 

183
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,600
it's hard like stuff takes years
or just doesn't happen at all 

184
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,900
and so if you want to solve that
When I say that you would sort 

185
00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,500
of reinvent, turbot you start to
think of things like, okay, I 

186
00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:03,100
need to have some kind of 
operating system that I can 

187
00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:05,500
guarantee or some kind of 
virtual machine that all of 

188
00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:08,200
these, you know, spread out 
peers are running. 

189
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,900
So that at least when I deliver 
them software, I know they're 

190
00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,600
talking to each other in the 
right way, they can handle 

191
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,000
versions changing. 
Well, they can get it 

192
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,300
distributed cleanly. 
They can know who the other 

193
00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:20,300
peers are and their networking 
IDs. 

194
00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:24,000
Not just there, like crypto IDs,
and you start to go sort of 

195
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,900
further and further. 
And you end up basically, 

196
00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:31,100
Reinventing Urban, which is a 
peer-to-peer operating system 

197
00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:32,600
that's just trying to make it so
that you can. 

198
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,800
Predictably say what all these 
different nodes in your network 

199
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,100
are running and how you can 
deliver software to them. 

200
00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:44,200
And so I think kind of the proof
of that is it took us a while 

201
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,600
but as we build out with require
this kind of crypto layer on top

202
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,800
of her bit, where you can start 
to like actually realize this 

203
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,400
and be like, okay we're you 
know, we're having applications,

204
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,000
we're delivering them. 
He's easily to people, we're 

205
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,400
letting them compose off chain 
and then do their high-value 

206
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,100
things on chain and actually is 
working like better even maybe 

207
00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:06,500
then we would have thought. 
So the what if we kind of Step 

208
00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:09,000
all the way back and say, how I 
would explain it to people it's 

209
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,100
that if you actually want to 
have cool Rich daps, that kind 

210
00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:16,300
of Drive the new meta of crypto,
like the new narratives that 

211
00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,200
push people in. 
You need to take a step back and

212
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,100
engineer, something a lot like a
peer-to-peer operating system. 

213
00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:26,500
So if someone in the last five 
or six years, Yours had built 

214
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,900
something like herb it in 
another language or in a sort of

215
00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:30,600
another stack. 
I actually probably would be 

216
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,500
looking at it and we will 
probably be hedging our bets, a 

217
00:11:32,508 --> 00:11:35,700
nuke bar and like, developing on
that thing as well or making 

218
00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:37,900
sure we knew it. 
The thing is no one's like, no 

219
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:40,900
one's done it, it's like a 
daunting project, that's hard to

220
00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:43,000
do. 
And at the point where someone 

221
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,800
does starts doing it, I will 
take it very, very seriously. 

222
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,500
I just don't think it will 
happen until Urban and nuke bar,

223
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:51,500
proof-of-concept enough. 
That that becomes like 

224
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,700
economically. 
Desirable like where investors 

225
00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:55,000
are think. 
Okay. 

226
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:55,900
We just saw that. 
Work. 

227
00:11:55,900 --> 00:11:58,200
Now, we're going to you know 
throat we're fine to throw money

228
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,400
at you. 
I'm actually curious. 

229
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:07,700
If you could take a practical 
example of what you're saying, 

230
00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:11,800
like let's imagine like it that 
that does X. 

231
00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:14,600
And then you put something on 
the blockchain and be like, 

232
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,200
okay, what are the constraints 
that emerge and why do we need a

233
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,100
sort of an off chain operating 
system? 

234
00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:23,500
Is that possible? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

235
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:29,500
So I'll take An example that I 
don't think is super Advanced or

236
00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:32,000
exciting or just like the the 
start of what we can do. 

237
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,500
But when we were playing around 
in November December and wanted 

238
00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:38,600
to be like okay what can we show
people for what this is doing? 

239
00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:43,100
We're like okay, let's make a 
poker game and what does that 

240
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:44,600
involve practically? 
If you want to make it 

241
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,000
peer-to-peer you need to have. 
Let's leave aside mental poker 

242
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,300
for now or some Advanced 
algorithm. 

243
00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:52,600
Let's say you want to have a 
server that kind of decides 

244
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,400
timeouts in the game who won 
Etc. 

245
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,400
Want, you know, at least two 
players who connect to that 

246
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,400
server, you want them to be able
to put money in escrow before 

247
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,000
you know each match and you 
wanted to get paid out 

248
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:07,500
appropriately. 
So suddenly you're looking at 

249
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,200
all these operations that sound 
easy. 

250
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,000
But everything I said their 
hides a lot of complexity which 

251
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,000
is first deploy the server, 
right? 

252
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,400
If your if you want it to be 
running all the time you would 

253
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,600
have to maybe deploy it to like 
a cloud service or something 

254
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,200
like that, configure it, make 
sure it's running, then have 

255
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,300
that connect to a blockchain be 
able to Take events coming in 

256
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:29,800
from people who say here's like 
the money that I want to put up 

257
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,400
in like lock it until the end 
have, like, those people read 

258
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,500
those events and this is all 
doable in, you know, a basic web

259
00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,200
three format. 
But when you start putting all 

260
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,100
the pieces together, the 
friction gets quite bad, both 

261
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:47,600
from. 
Okay, This Server isn't working.

262
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,400
I want to make my own, let's go 
deploy that. 

263
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,700
Oh, now, I'm following all these
instructions for how to deploy 

264
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:53,100
it in the cloud. 
That's actually quite 

265
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,200
complicated with herb. 
It it was lit. 

266
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,600
It's Like, you know, push a 
button to say, install, the 

267
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,500
hosting software, push another 
button, and now it's running. 

268
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:05,100
And so, when we actually had one
go down and I wanted to start up

269
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,500
another one for our test games, 
it was actually like remarkably 

270
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:13,500
easy and just sort of slots in, 
then you go to everything about,

271
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:16,700
you know, we want to deliver 
updates easily, orbit, lets us 

272
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,500
handle that to all the peers so 
they can stay, they can stay 

273
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,700
synced and then we can even 
start doing and then even the 

274
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:24,800
wallet interactions where you're
like. 

275
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,100
Okay, I need to send Send money 
to the escrow then have it? 

276
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:32,400
Be detected have that come back.
That's like something that you 

277
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,800
want to have done like pretty 
seamlessly and by putting it 

278
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,400
inside irbid, we're able to have
that happening all, you know, on

279
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,000
our back end when the action 
happens, you can spit it out. 

280
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,900
And the end result at the end of
the day is you have something 

281
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:49,600
that just works. 
Now, we're expanding that a lot 

282
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,900
to actually use case that I 
think is much more practical and

283
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:58,600
close to home, which is we wrote
We have chat and we're expanding

284
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,000
it now too. 
I guess something that is it on 

285
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,300
it basically becomes dou 
tooling, but in a very 

286
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:08,000
full-featured way, where you're 
like, when you say, what is a 

287
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,400
group of people, excuse me, in 
orbit is traditionally been. 

288
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,200
Okay, I have one server and that
server keeps a list of who's in 

289
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,500
the group and you do that, but 
there's no reason that can't be 

290
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:22,700
a non chain entity that it 
couldn't be like a dow or some 

291
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:25,900
kind of group that records its 
various permissions or members. 

292
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,600
Things like that, you know, on 
chain the only thing is you have

293
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,000
to be able to easily query that 
you have to be able to update 

294
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,600
it. 
Let all that stuff happen, and 

295
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,400
we're going to release that 
pretty soon. 

296
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,200
But in a format where you can 
basically say, my dad was a non 

297
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,100
chain thing. 
But all of this off chain stuff 

298
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:46,600
like chat, documents, like blogs
people are sharing sending money

299
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:49,000
doing applications that involve 
assets. 

300
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,900
Sort of just works based on the 
permissions of that Dow. 

301
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,100
So I think it's those are some 
of the concrete examples, but I 

302
00:15:56,100 --> 00:16:00,300
think the coolest thing about it
is that all of them extend very,

303
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:05,400
very easily and it's almost like
all the stuff that as either a 

304
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,700
sort of a programmer who hasn't 
done web 3 and think stuff 

305
00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:11,400
should be doable. 
Now, it is stuff that you 

306
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,700
intuitively think or is a user 
where users will often think 

307
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,000
this stuff about. 
Okay, I have all these things. 

308
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,700
Why can't I combine them? 
Like, I have a chain that could 

309
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,700
store this dou state. 
Why can't that also integrate 

310
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:24,800
easily with they would think 
like, you know, my telegram 

311
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,100
groups And manage permissions 
their do things like that or and

312
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,400
now it can. 
So I think that that's really 

313
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,200
the main answer is all the like 
we can keep giving these 

314
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,700
concrete examples, but they 
extend easily and all the stuff 

315
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:40,100
you think you should be able to 
do kind of naively. 

316
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:46,900
You can So, you know, you have a
personal story, you don't about 

317
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:54,100
a time when you dismissed orbit 
and then, then you revisit it 

318
00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:57,300
again, work with orbit 
foundation. 

319
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,200
And then how did you end up at 
the idea for Oak bar? 

320
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,200
And yeah, how did you end up? 
Finding the team for it? 

321
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,900
Yes. 
So this part is the idea was 

322
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,200
actually very straightforward 
because all of 2021 I was 

323
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,599
dealing with people coming to 
Urban and saying I want to learn

324
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,099
how to build the system and I 
want to try to do this kind of 

325
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:19,599
project. 
Like actually I was just 

326
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,200
describing the poker game that 
we did a nuke bar that was 

327
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,099
actually The Apprentice project 
of the guy who is now our lead 

328
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:27,500
developer he came and was like 
okay I want to see if I can 

329
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:32,000
quickly make a poker game on 
Urban and just taking that as an

330
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,600
example, what happened is he was
able to do it very quickly, 

331
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:38,500
handling, all those pure 
aspects, I talked about but you 

332
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,700
know, poker is kind of boring 
without real money and the kind 

333
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:46,200
of Step that he got You was, how
do I have there be real? 

334
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,300
Like, you know, real money in 
here and the answer was you have

335
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:52,200
to do all this kind of gross 
stuff in her awping with you 

336
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,100
know announce them outside Block
Chain and that was not an 

337
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,400
isolated case. 
I would I would say like 

338
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,600
probably 90% of the projects 
people did when they came to 

339
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,300
Urban sort of spiritually wanted
to be crypto projects. 

340
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,800
They wanted to have especially 
because when you're dealing with

341
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,600
these like decentralized 
applications, you very, very 

342
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,300
often want them to be able to To
coordinate on some piece of 

343
00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:17,100
state or have some kind of 
economically, meaningful thing, 

344
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:20,900
update, something like that. 
And so people over and over 

345
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:24,000
again, wanted that. 
And the answer was always, you 

346
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,400
could do it. 
But we've kind of sold you on 

347
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,900
this, like amazing operating 
system that integrates 

348
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:31,200
everything inside it except for 
crypto that's not like 

349
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,900
integrated. 
You have to kind of go through 

350
00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:35,000
this sort of gross process all 
over again. 

351
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,600
And so it became very, very 
clear that herb. 

352
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,400
It needed a in also like an 
integrated cryptosystem and the 

353
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,400
Was I think it was obviously 
desirable, there were questions 

354
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,000
over how to achieve it, but we 
basically started the project by

355
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,400
finding everyone in irbid who 
was interested in that idea and 

356
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,200
was good at stuff and saying, 
you know, we probably have a job

357
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,200
for you if we can raise money 
against this idea. 

358
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,300
And because I think a lot of the
people who were in orbit at the 

359
00:19:04,308 --> 00:19:08,500
time, got that, it was this very
almost like funding of early e 

360
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:12,600
thing where a lot of people sort
of saw the desirability of this 

361
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,000
This. 
We're in like a community and 

362
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,200
decided to, you know, get in on 
it. 

363
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,400
And so we were able to fund it 
based on them sort of 

364
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,100
understanding orbit and what it 
would need and then there were a

365
00:19:23,108 --> 00:19:27,800
number of people around we hired
like I'm trying to think how 

366
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000
many on our team. 
Like most of our Dev team is 

367
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,800
people who I was working with as
like sort of new programmers to 

368
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,500
err. 
But during that year or who I 

369
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:40,400
on-boarded and same with people 
on our like business team, were 

370
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,300
people who got interested in it 
from. 

371
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,100
Are, you know, from the like 
something is going on here and I

372
00:19:46,108 --> 00:19:51,000
want to be in on the community 
aspect so and then we had some 

373
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,700
really great people who had been
heavily involved, like working 

374
00:19:54,700 --> 00:20:00,400
at tan like like tack, right? 
So crepe like Logan Allen, who 

375
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,800
worked with us like part-time to
on board, all of our people and 

376
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,700
kind of get them really up to 
speed in writing hoon and 

377
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:09,200
writing her. 
But programs he did a great job 

378
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,000
and has since gone on to sort of
take the crypto side and The, 

379
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,700
that's not even farther by 
starting a ZK oriented orbit 

380
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:17,100
company that's doing really 
well. 

381
00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:21,400
Zorp. 
And yeah, it was just this like 

382
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,600
I think we kind of collected 
everyone who was talented 

383
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:30,200
interested in crypto, just 
getting into orbit and want to 

384
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,900
just like sort of be in on that.
And we at that point we were 

385
00:20:32,908 --> 00:20:35,700
like okay we have some team, we 
have some money now, we should 

386
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:37,700
have to figure out how all this 
will work and that was sort of 

387
00:20:37,708 --> 00:20:41,000
its own, we've gone through a 
lot of different sort of changes

388
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,300
and idea since it started Well 
let's get a little bit into 

389
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:48,300
details here, right. 
So because you're basically 

390
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:49,800
saying like, Okay in irbid, 
right? 

391
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,200
You have a lot of things such as
part of the stack, right? 

392
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,600
So you have, you know, identity 
messaging, a lot of things are 

393
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,100
just like in their software 
distribution and I was saying, 

394
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:03,700
okay, the goal goal of work by 
making crypto part of the stack,

395
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:07,700
as well, like what does it mean?
Because it because in the end, 

396
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:09,800
right? 
These other things are actually 

397
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,100
part of the core orbit like 
operating system. 

398
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:17,100
Where's Akbar is something 
that's building on top? 

399
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:24,800
So what does it mean to sort of 
you know make crypto this like 

400
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,400
yeah this part of the urban 
stack with his like fundamental 

401
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,500
primitive that's like easily 
available for people building 

402
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:35,300
irbid applications. 
I've thought about that a lot 

403
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,300
because you definitely ask 
yourself while you're doing a 

404
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:40,800
project, like, like is what I'm 
doing. 

405
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,800
Necessary is definitely a big 
thing. 

406
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,000
And so I, when I was giving the 
stories earlier about people 

407
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,200
wanting crypto in their apps, 
but not having it, that was sort

408
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,200
of to motivate that but 
practically how you make it. 

409
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,700
A part of it is you make sure 
that everything bar does as a 

410
00:21:57,708 --> 00:21:59,500
chain. 
And I'll explain this in sort of

411
00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:01,400
high-level technical where it's 
easy to understand. 

412
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,500
But just at the even without 
technical to Everything it does 

413
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:07,600
is like sherbet native. 
So let's say you have a, I think

414
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,900
most people in your audience 
would be familiar with like, L 

415
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:12,600
to sequencers. 
So you have this machine sitting

416
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,500
there, that's taking, you know, 
transactions and then settles 

417
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,500
them with whatever chain. 
It's a rolling up to, right? 

418
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,100
So we're part has a sequencer. 
We have it set up actually, so 

419
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:22,400
you can have multiple 
sequencers. 

420
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,600
It's actually pretty similar to,
you know, how our beat drum has 

421
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,400
proposed doing multiple, you 
know, multiple chains that 

422
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,800
interop. 
So it has it sequencer and that 

423
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,200
sequencer has to interact with a
theory. 

424
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,800
Mm but No one else. 
Inside the urban network has to 

425
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,200
interact with ethereal 
everything that that sequencer 

426
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,300
does is like you know, an 
airlock that sealed off tight 

427
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,000
and you can send it in ER and 
all the interactions you do with

428
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,500
it sort of produce, Urban native
data, Urban native events that 

429
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,700
are easy for urban programs to 
handle. 

430
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:56,800
So that doesn't mean that we're 
exclusive like someone else 

431
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,900
could go and make something like
bar. 

432
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,700
We're not exclusive in the way 
that something in the colonel if

433
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:04,500
you can actually Imagine a 
version of orbit where they 

434
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:08,700
basically built far as like a 
core part of the operating 

435
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:10,100
system. 
I don't think that would be the 

436
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:14,300
best design because you may as 
well, there's no technical 

437
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,900
reason for it. 
And so you may as well compete 

438
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,300
on that layer, but we do have to
compete with anyone who wants to

439
00:23:19,308 --> 00:23:22,200
do the exact same thing as us in
their own thing. 

440
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:24,600
Although we do have like, you 
know, business licensing on the 

441
00:23:24,608 --> 00:23:25,600
code. 
So they wouldn't be able to just

442
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,000
copy Us. 
In most cases, they could try to

443
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,500
make a really good layer for 
calling out to like, you know, a

444
00:23:30,508 --> 00:23:33,100
theory mm or Cosmo. 
Sori player 2's or something 

445
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,600
like That they absolutely could 
do that. 

446
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,700
It's hard. 
It's like a lot of engineering. 

447
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:43,700
So I think what makes us Crypto 
honor bit, is that we're the 

448
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:46,300
only people who are doing it 
particularly seriously right now

449
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,100
and you have anything remotely 
well-engineered there. 

450
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,900
And we're also doing all the 
engineering such that from a 

451
00:23:52,908 --> 00:23:56,500
developer's perspective. 
You don't have to think about 

452
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,000
how it interacts with like, 
let's say like a theorem or 

453
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,500
anything like that. 
Everything is like fully 

454
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:03,000
contained Insider bit in this 
model. 

455
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,400
Right. 
So basically, a developer can 

456
00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:11,700
write their application right in
its own in in irbid as a 

457
00:24:11,708 --> 00:24:13,100
programming language called 
Hoon. 

458
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,400
I choose this sort of the the 
main development languages is 

459
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,600
functional language. 
So and you can build your Urban 

460
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,800
application in hoon. 
And so basically what you guys 

461
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,700
are then offering is that as I'm
writing this application, I can 

462
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:30,200
write some sort of smart 
contract logic in that 

463
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,100
application in hoon and then it 
will sort of like, you know, can

464
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:38,900
like Like create a transaction, 
it can and it will send that 

465
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:43,400
transaction to the sequencer 
which is again just irbid. 

466
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,600
It should honor bit, right? 
So just sending a message to 

467
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,100
basically a particular ship 
owner between urban in urban 

468
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:53,000
note. 
Yeah. 

469
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,700
And then that would be note, 
kind of sequences it and in the 

470
00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:59,500
end it said, let's do it here, 
IAM. 

471
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:03,700
So you have sort of the security
of etherium and at the same 

472
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:05,500
time, yeah, yeah. 
You can kind of access that 

473
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:09,000
smartphone type functionality 
from within normal. 

474
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,900
Herb adapt. 
That's right. 

475
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:16,600
And we could get more into the 
urban tap side because there is 

476
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,200
this question of why are you 
doing all this work? 

477
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,400
So that you can let's say right,
smart contracts and hoon and 

478
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,000
integrate them with orbit apps? 
Like what's the win there? 

479
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,500
I think we've sort of, we've 
sort of touched on that, but 

480
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,300
that's, that's another big part 
of the story. 

481
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:33,800
Where, I guess what the way I 
would say it is right now, when 

482
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,700
you develop, let's say, if 
you're in contracts, are evm in 

483
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,600
general, you use something like 
hard hat or something like that,

484
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,800
and you get this full 
environment that lets you do, 

485
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,800
all this testing and stuff for 
your on chain application. 

486
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,400
So we talked like, you know, 
maybe 20 minutes ago, about how,

487
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,100
for just on chain, stuff are the
current Paradigm works pretty 

488
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:54,800
well. 
You can make some pretty some 

489
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,100
pretty cool apps that work that 
work. 

490
00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,800
Well, and I guess the one way 
you can think about what we're 

491
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,400
doing is trying to extend that 
feeling of being in inside, you 

492
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,600
know, hard hat, or found Russell
Russell, I'm like Foundry, like 

493
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,700
something like that, and 
extending that to your entire 

494
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,700
application. 
So that when you want to test 

495
00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:13,100
your, you know, full application
and say it's getting, you know, 

496
00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:15,900
events coming in from other 
peers or starting them up. 

497
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:18,900
Having the blockchain events 
coming into is also part of 

498
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:20,900
that. 
So, really, trying to unify 

499
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:25,400
everything into this hole and we
wouldn't be able to do that if 

500
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,300
we weren't writing it. 
You know, as one orbit 

501
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:33,000
application, if you didn't have 
that, If it was just the Akbar 

502
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,400
chain and then you were writing 
with all in JavaScript or 

503
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,800
something that would be very 
hard and if it was just Urban 

504
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,600
apps and you were had to 
interface with them in like you 

505
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,800
know, native evm form. 
That would also be very hard and

506
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,400
the way we the reason we know 
that's hard is that Urban people

507
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,800
have wanted to do this for a 
while and like they haven't and 

508
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,900
blockchain people have one of 
these kind of, you know very 

509
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:55,100
much apps for a while and also 
have had a very hard time doing 

510
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:56,600
them. 
Whereas worse trying to find 

511
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,000
this like intersection to be 
like a lot easier and sort of 

512
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,000
you know more fun to write. 
Dig into this a little bit. 

513
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,200
So our story starts off with 
kind of just observing that. 

514
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:18,000
For example, if we wanted a 
poker poker app, the hard thing 

515
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,300
about building a poker a pond is
helium is. 

516
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,600
Well, if Financial logic, 
there's a natural house for that

517
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,100
Financial logic. 
But poker also requires is this 

518
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:29,500
a game of incomplete 
information? 

519
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:33,300
I need to have some secrets from
you and secrets are not 

520
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,200
naturally. 
Portrait in on the blockchain. 

521
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,500
So I need something with privacy
and lacking and what might be 

522
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:44,900
something with privacy. 
Well, you might say that, okay, 

523
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:50,200
the users browser is something 
that has privacy so we could 

524
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:57,600
have the application run on two 
users browsers and then they 

525
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,900
settle on it here. 
Maybe somebody could imagine 

526
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:02,100
something like that and yeah, I 
think I think even, you know, 

527
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:04,400
virtue poker or true poker 
pretty much He's doing things 

528
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,100
like this. 
Like I don't want the people in 

529
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:08,700
our audience to scream at us. 
Like, I know what mental poker 

530
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:11,000
is, you absolutely. 
There are ways to solve it. 

531
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,500
I think mayor's point is more 
about the logistics. 

532
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,700
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

533
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:19,400
But of course like menu and you 
start to do that. 

534
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,700
You come to the United Nation 
that you are almost trying to 

535
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:27,400
use the browser as kind of like 
a computer, right? 

536
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,000
You try to do peer-to-peer 
networking between users with 

537
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,700
between two browsers. 
And then what if you had a 

538
00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:40,300
persistent long-lived computer 
rather than a browser to 

539
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,600
represent the user? 
And like that's kind of that's 

540
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:49,500
kind of herb b or B jump. 
In fact, if we go back to the 

541
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,400
beginning of the discussion 
where we said you almost We 

542
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,900
reinvent orbit your about like 
you know 10% of the way to 

543
00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:00,400
Reinventing irbid already 
because you start to say, yeah, 

544
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,100
this would be great. 
Okay. 

545
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:03,400
I'm going to put like, you know,
the applications living in my 

546
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,200
users browser, okay? 
Now they need ways to talk to 

547
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,900
each other. 
Okay, we'll make like, you know,

548
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:09,800
a stack for that. 
They also need to be able to 

549
00:29:09,808 --> 00:29:12,000
know like the identity of the 
other one and then like 

550
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,400
encrypted and make sure they're 
doing that man. 

551
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,500
My app also might have some like
software updates over time. 

552
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:19,700
Like I better make sure they're 
running the same version of the 

553
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:22,100
operating system. 
And and what you do is I'm not 

554
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,100
Not saying this in a bad way you
actually absolutely could make 

555
00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:26,900
sort of a version of something 
like Urban tour. 

556
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,400
An OS that lived in browsers. 
This is basically what people 

557
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,900
want to do with Waze. 
Mm it's just that no one's done 

558
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:36,800
it and so like sherbet is the 
only thing out there that is in 

559
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,000
a form that can be used but 
you're absolutely right that you

560
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,400
start to go down this road of 
needing to maintain the software

561
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:44,400
deploy. 
It somewhere have places that 

562
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,300
can talk to to handle identity 
networking between the things 

563
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:52,100
and that's all the stuff that 
turbot is giving us for free. 

564
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,800
E. 
And then what we need to make 

565
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,100
sure we can do is in that model.
Also, have it be as clean as 

566
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:01,500
possible for those. 
Let's say in-browser programs, 

567
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,900
to talk to the blockchain and do
that cleanly, because right now,

568
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:09,000
orbit is the sort of sealed off 
thing, where it can do, all of 

569
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,700
that stuff and solve all those 
problems. 

570
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,500
But it doesn't have like without
it bar, particularly clean ways 

571
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:15,400
to talk to talk to the 
blockchain. 

572
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:17,700
And so, that's been a barrier 
for, you know, on the urban 

573
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,900
side, it's been logistically 
difficult to develop those kinds

574
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:21,200
of programs. 
Yeah. 

575
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,200
And then nothing Next Step, 
you're you're taking is really 

576
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:29,400
that the development environment
that works to develop 

577
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,700
applications in natively in 
orbit. 

578
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000
Should be the same as the 
development and environment that

579
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,600
you use to build your smart 
contracts running on a 

580
00:30:40,608 --> 00:30:43,900
blockchain on Earth. 
The guy like that's the that's 

581
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:48,200
the that's the unification 
you're trying to do because in 

582
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,300
the end, what you want is for 
the developer to to have very 

583
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,200
little difference between 
something that is on blockchain 

584
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,100
and like something that is that 
is exactly and we can even go 

585
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:00,700
further. 
Which is in terms of what we're 

586
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:05,300
developing internally which is 
we we want the blockchain to be 

587
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:07,800
inside orbit. 
We want the program to be an 

588
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,300
urban native program and we even
want the testing and 

589
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:13,300
orchestration of those. 
Like let's say if you're testing

590
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:16,000
and you want to your testing a 
poker game, you need to have 

591
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,900
three or four different fake 
peers running fake nodes running

592
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:23,400
to test it and keep doing them. 
We also want to get that running

593
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:25,600
inside orbit so right now it's 
run. 

594
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,500
If you're actually building an 
herb, it program the way it 

595
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:30,800
looks is maybe you fire up for 
different terminal windows and 

596
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,100
each of them is one of your 
nodes, you know, your sort of 

597
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:35,400
fake notes that you're testing 
with and you have to cut and 

598
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,300
paste commands into them to get 
them into the right States as 

599
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:41,400
you develop it. 
And so one in sight we had which

600
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,400
is not unique to Austin had 
started some work on this a 

601
00:31:43,408 --> 00:31:47,300
while but never took it that far
was what if we put all of that 

602
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,200
inside our but what if we have 
in you know, in irbid program 

603
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:54,800
that can Create four five, 
whatever different orbit like 

604
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,900
nodes. 
And in orbit blockchain Hoop Bar

605
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,100
blockchain inside and run, you 
know, sort of run all this stuff

606
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:03,500
and let you sort of automate 
that app development process. 

607
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,300
So again, it actually feels very
much like, you know, for any of 

608
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:09,400
our evm developers here, if you 
use something like hard hat 

609
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,800
where you fire up, a local node,
and run stuff against it and 

610
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,500
then reset it, it feels like 
that. 

611
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,000
But for everything in your 
application where you're almost 

612
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,600
simulating this, you know, 
Galaxy of different peers who 

613
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,200
you put into whatever States, 
you want and one through a 

614
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,700
program and then the next 
obvious step after that, that 

615
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:32,200
we've just started to look into 
is sort of further powering that

616
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600
up at the next level will be to 
like, you know, integrate like 

617
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,100
AI assistance with it is like a 
very obvious Next Step, because 

618
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,300
the thing we haven't, you 
haven't asked me yet is, but 

619
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:44,900
isn't sort of Hoon weird. 
And how will you get developers 

620
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:47,200
to use it? 
And so there are some answers to

621
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,600
that even without that. 
But we're seeing some really 

622
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,300
promising. 
The Avenues with, you know, 

623
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,300
training like LMS to know, 
basically to know who and better

624
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,100
and kind of let people do it. 
The lazy way rather than having 

625
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:03,200
to take this sort of religious 
journey into a new programming 

626
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,500
language. 
Okay, great. 

627
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:07,700
I did exactly. 
I wanted to ask about that 

628
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:11,000
question, right? 
So because food is something 

629
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,600
that when people see it first, 
it looks really weird. 

630
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,900
It doesn't look like any other 
programming language. 

631
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:20,500
So a lot of people, you know, 
including, let's let's say, of 

632
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:23,800
course one, Right. 
But basically who looks like 

633
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:29,200
very strange and four people, it
one of the most common 

634
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,100
objections, you know, we get is 
that people see that it's like 

635
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:35,900
well People are not going to 
want to learn this thing, right?

636
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,700
So you really have to do 
something that's more close to 

637
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,200
programming languages. 
That develops already know, 

638
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:46,300
that's the only way to get like 
mainstream adoption and get 

639
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:48,600
like, you know, hundreds of 
thousands of developers building

640
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,900
on it. 
And of course, you have like 

641
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,500
solidity, which is kind of like 
JavaScript similar. 

642
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:56,100
And so that's a very common 
objection. 

643
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:58,800
And then, of course, you have a 
lot of people in irbid that are 

644
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,900
like know, who owns the way. 
And like once you learn it, 

645
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,300
there's no going back. 
And it is the one, you know, 

646
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:06,400
they won't Roofing even if in 
orbit, right. 

647
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,600
There's a little bit of like 
division where you had like I 

648
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,900
guess a project holy mm right. 
Is now been trying to get more 

649
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:19,500
like JavaScript into orbit so 
what's was your fault on hoon 

650
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,900
and sort of its suitability for 
application development 

651
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:27,500
mainstream adoption and smart 
contract development, okay? 

652
00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:30,199
So this is what we can but we 
can use the stuff. 

653
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,000
We've talked about already to 
kind of frame this. 

654
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,400
So, first of all, I'm Of an 
herb. 

655
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,500
It atheist. 
I'm not religious about it. 

656
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:39,000
I'm doing this in a very sort of
20th century. 

657
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:43,100
Empirical scientific sense where
I'm using it because it has 

658
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:46,400
specific properties that I want 
and to the if there's principles

659
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:49,800
I sort of like them because they
helped me develop better. 

660
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,699
I'm not, you know, religiously 
intellectually married to like 

661
00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:56,400
having to have weird characters 
on the screen that doesn't, you 

662
00:34:56,408 --> 00:34:58,500
know, it's like sort of it's a 
fun thing but it doesn't matter 

663
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:01,600
to me that much. 
So if we start out like, why are

664
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,100
we using Hoon? 
The first reason is that like 

665
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,300
practically right now? 
That's the only way to get 

666
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,000
access to the urban operating 
system. 

667
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,300
And as we said earlier, the 
urban operating system is the 

668
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:14,700
only thing that has these 
properties that we need in order

669
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:19,700
to cleanly build these systems. 
But then, as Brian said, that 

670
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,300
leads into the next question of.
Ok, you can have all your 

671
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:27,800
reasons but will people use it. 
So I think there's two angles to

672
00:35:27,808 --> 00:35:30,600
come here from that are very 
like, we have a lot of empirical

673
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,700
evidence as to how this goes. 
The first angle we can go from 

674
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:39,600
is have people become more 
likely to learn Hoon over time. 

675
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:43,000
And as I said, I think people 
don't really appreciate this who

676
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,800
are in orbit, but because a lot 
of them are either have come in 

677
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,800
the last two years or when they 
were there earlier, sort of 

678
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,300
weren't directly involved with 
education, but I can tell you 

679
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:56,400
for a fact that if we were 
talking about like, June 2020, I

680
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,200
would have long conversations 
with people. 

681
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,200
And the subject of those 
conversations was, is it 

682
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,400
possible to teach, Normal 
developers to use hoon or is it 

683
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,700
just too hard and too weird? 
And my hypothesis was it's not 

684
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:11,600
too hard. 
It's just being taught badly and

685
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,600
some people thought it was sort 
of, you know, too hard and they 

686
00:36:13,607 --> 00:36:16,500
had to go through the secret 
like Cults, like initiation to 

687
00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:20,600
want to in the first place. 
And the it's not too hard. 

688
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,500
People have won hands down 
convincingly. 

689
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:27,100
So we now have like you know 
when the foundation runs people 

690
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:29,700
through whom school there will 
be like 100 to 200 people doing 

691
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:32,100
that a pop. 
There's way more you know who in

692
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:35,100
Repose on. 
There were there's far more, 

693
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:37,700
Hoon programmers. 
Like then there were there's not

694
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,400
even enough jobs for them. 
Like necessarily is probably not

695
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:41,700
as many companies as there are 
them. 

696
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,200
And the biggest issue people 
have now is like I think because

697
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,600
it's missing stuff like crypto. 
It's almost like okay what do 

698
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,500
they build once they have this? 
That's one angle is that I think

699
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:56,100
I'm hoon is not particularly 
hard to learn but you are 

700
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:59,700
correct that it's still a new 
language and what's the point of

701
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,800
learning a new language? 
You have to convince Developers.

702
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:06,400
To do it. 
So I think there's again two 

703
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,300
aspects there. 
The first one is, if we think 

704
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:15,700
about right now, for sort of non
e VM L to stuff or even L ones, 

705
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,500
there's a couple projects and 
they're very very successful if 

706
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:22,900
we take like obviously, like you
have Solana which uses Rost 

707
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:25,200
been. 
Now that's already an existing 

708
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,200
language. 
They get to onboard people who 

709
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,000
know that, but then you have 
Stark Nur, which has is probably

710
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,500
sort of the most Nerd sniping 
developer attracting like 

711
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:39,800
project like you know in crypto 
it's like they're like they get 

712
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,800
a lot of developers and sort of 
organic attention and people 

713
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,600
wanting to do it even though the
language is way harder than Hoon

714
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,300
especially to reason about 
doesn't look like they've made 

715
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:51,300
it some superficial things to 
make it look different but it's 

716
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,300
very hard to think about and 
people still use it and they 

717
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,800
still will do it because it lets
them do something that they want

718
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,300
to do. 
And I think bar is very much in 

719
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,100
that vein of if we can. 
Let you do the types of apps 

720
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:08,100
that we think we can, you'll go 
through the work of using Hoon 

721
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:11,400
that said. 
So that would have been my 

722
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,600
answer until about, you know, 
March 15th or 20th or something 

723
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,500
like that. 
And now because we're living in 

724
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:21,900
like the singularity like GPT 
for came out, everyone's on what

725
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:25,800
it can do and can see how this 
is going to head for other like 

726
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,000
you know, LMS and people have 
been making a ton of progress in

727
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,600
you know, training, non GPT LMS 
and doing it legit like 

728
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,800
launching. 
And things like that and it's 

729
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,800
very, very obvious that if we 
put the work in we will be able 

730
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,600
to have computers that make it 
much much easier for you to 

731
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,100
write in hoon and let you get 
in, like, sort of have a 

732
00:38:45,107 --> 00:38:49,200
superficial understanding of it,
but be like, do this for me or 

733
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,800
show me how this is done and 
things like that. 

734
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,900
And I think so, we start 
basically start with this thing 

735
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,900
of can you learn Hoon? 
Yes, it's possible to learn 

736
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:59,400
Hoon. 
It's not particularly hard as 

737
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,600
languages. 
Go do you have desire to we've 

738
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:03,700
seen? 
That if there's enough like 

739
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:06,900
economic reason there's like 
because we're providing enough 

740
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:10,400
applications that you can build,
that will be there and then can 

741
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,500
we make that as easy as possible
and the main worry now? 

742
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,200
Is that like, you know, I guess 
it's interesting. 

743
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,600
I think, actually, the main 
competitor of sort of bar type 

744
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:27,300
stuff now is actually super 
powerful LMS that let you take 

745
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:30,300
all the stuff that mayor was 
saying is hard and like, gluing 

746
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:31,600
together. 
Things are putting their browser

747
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:34,400
and just make it like a 
Essentially I think the only way

748
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,400
to sort of make that stuff go 
really well as like maybe maybe 

749
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,500
even a GI or something like 
close to it and we can see a 

750
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:43,000
path to that now. 
But you know before the computer

751
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,400
is kill us, all there will be 
this beautiful moment of being 

752
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,100
able to use hoon like very very 
easily. 

753
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,100
And I think we're sort of 
explicitly targeting like I 

754
00:39:52,107 --> 00:39:56,300
guess 2024 should be the year 
and then 2025 will all be dead. 

755
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,800
So it'll be fun, though will be 
programming and hoon and Rich 

756
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,100
but then dead soon after. 
So this is one thing I didn't 

757
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:08,000
think I was going to. 
This has not actually been on my

758
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,400
mind for a while but I have 
thought about it a little bit in

759
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,300
the past. 
So the topic of like Ai and if 

760
00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:23,500
you have like AI becoming like 
super powerful I'm to me, it 

761
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:29,000
feels like because in irbid you 
know you are kind of like owning

762
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:35,100
your own like Network identity. 
And because you have this sort 

763
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:39,400
of like a governance structure 
because, you know, but you have 

764
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:41,900
to send it right. 
Basically, you have a bunch of 

765
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:46,500
notes like 256 nodes that make 
up this Galactic Senate. 

766
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:50,000
And they are basically like a 
doll like governance Council, 

767
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,700
right? 
And these are people who own 

768
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:55,400
baby is cryptographic identity 
and then can make some 

769
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,200
decisions. 
So, 1/4 I've had with regards to

770
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,300
AI. 
Is that this Feels like 

771
00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:05,600
something that could be a, 
pretty resilient structure that 

772
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,900
like, you know, human beings 
could keep control of even in 

773
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:14,000
the face of like AI becoming 
like super powerful. 

774
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,600
So, I'm just curious, like, what
are your thoughts with like a? 

775
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,600
I becoming, you know, a GI, and 
those kind of things and like, 

776
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,900
how that will sort of, like, 
interplay with herb it. 

777
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:30,400
As a, as a network and as an 
alternative to the internet So 

778
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,100
there's so many possible Futures
there that it's hard to catalog 

779
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:35,500
them. 
I think the only thing that's 

780
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:39,600
clear now is that absent maybe 
massive government or 

781
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:45,100
self-imposed like private 
restriction AI is going to get 

782
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:48,100
very powerful. 
I would end like already 

783
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:49,500
especially in the area of 
programming. 

784
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:50,900
Is much more than people 
thought. 

785
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,000
So then you sort of play that 
out and I think there's like 

786
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,500
these different Futures where 
You know, maybe very powerful 

787
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,700
models are out there but they're
only owned by a few corporations

788
00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:07,300
in the US and so then maybe 
irbid plus crypto becomes this 

789
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:10,800
platform for people who want to 
you know, access powerful AI 

790
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,200
models outside of that or have 
them like you know interact in 

791
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,600
that way and run sort of these 
alternative economy's like 

792
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,300
outside of that. 
If you know, AI is restricted 

793
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,100
heavily which is very possible 
in terms of like, you know, size

794
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:28,900
of training runs like gpus being
Stricted in some ways, not, not 

795
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:31,500
at all inconceivable, you know, 
then I think herb. 

796
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:33,500
It has this and it was, 
especially if bar has this 

797
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:37,600
massive role to play where 
because in that, if AI is 

798
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,900
restricted, it's very hard to 
make all these systems work 

799
00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:42,600
together. 
A, I enabled bar would be one of

800
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,000
the best ways to have a large 
computer system that does work 

801
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,500
together, you know, for economic
purposes, Rich applications easy

802
00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:52,500
for developers to make all of 
that stuff. 

803
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:55,600
And, you know, then you do have 
like, we sort of these weird 

804
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,800
Futures, like, where I get super
powerful models are out there 

805
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,100
for everyone. 
You know, in that, in those 

806
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,000
cases, I don't even know how, 
like, if Humanity survives, we'd

807
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,500
have to, you know, we have to 
see but I think there's a broad 

808
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:16,800
range of outcomes where a I 
assisted orbit is very, very 

809
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,900
powerful for letting people I 
guess like access the, you know,

810
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:25,500
the products of the products of 
models to assist their 

811
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:29,400
programming and also to Like 
make throwaway programs that 

812
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,100
operate like in their orbits and
orchestrate, their stuff related

813
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:34,900
to, you know, crypto 
applications things like that. 

814
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,600
And then possibly things like 
training. 

815
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,700
But it's when there's this much 
uncertainty. 

816
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,000
I think the main thing you have 
to do is make sure that your you

817
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,600
kind of lean into the power and 
make sure you can do enough in 

818
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,800
all of those scenarios. 
And so, I do know, like, a too 

819
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,000
far. 
We're taking this very, very 

820
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,500
seriously, as a kind of bull 
case for urban in general. 

821
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:02,300
Especially for like bar with 
crypto being on her butt and 

822
00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:05,600
just trying to make sure that I 
guess there's this thing you 

823
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,600
could do of like making excuses 
where your where you say, like 

824
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,600
where people fall back into a 
sort of urban pure, like Purity 

825
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,600
thing of like, okay, we're 
orbit, we don't use Ai. 

826
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,400
And to me, that's why we just, 
you know, do handcrafted 

827
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,300
artisanal programming, like, you
know, ourselves there's 

828
00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:25,200
something great to me. 
That's a lot less interesting 

829
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,500
than saying we have this really 
powerful. 

830
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,700
Integrated system. 
The biggest barrier to its 

831
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:31,500
adoption was that the 
programming language is a little

832
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:34,400
bit weird. 
Now we have machines that can 

833
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:38,300
just knock that out for us and 
so that's a little bit scary 

834
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:40,800
because you're definitely going 
in the direction of making some 

835
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,400
very powerful systems. 
But, you know, I don't think 

836
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,600
there's sort of any other way to
go. 

837
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:52,600
From your description. 
It feels a lot like the Oak bar 

838
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:58,900
system can be thought of in the 
best case as similar to Apple, 

839
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:00,800
right? 
All of us have this experience 

840
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,500
that when you bite into the 
Apple ecosystem, you get one 

841
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:07,600
device and then the next device 
becomes apple and then you're 

842
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,900
kind of Trapped into like 10 
devices inside the Apple 

843
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:17,500
ecosystem and if God forbid you 
ever need an Android device and 

844
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:19,600
interoperability is going to be 
really bad. 

845
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:27,100
So, the sick you think that 
scanner in future for bar when 

846
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:31,700
it's successful that, if I am an
obit user, and I'm an upper 

847
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:37,900
user, I'll have a very good 
experience when I am interacting

848
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:43,400
with just two bar having on my 
finances, their Exciter, but if 

849
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,600
you consider the other cases, 
which is like a developer that's

850
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,600
kind of I don't know, building 
on the cosmos SDK. 

851
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:54,800
And trying to ship to a, trying 
to ship the cosmos, SDK 

852
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,900
application to a user that is on
irbid that interoperability may 

853
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:07,100
be very weak. 
Okay, so there's a few different

854
00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:11,800
cases embedded in your question.
And so we should like one is 

855
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,900
don't like sort of done if you 
are successful. 

856
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:19,700
Does it sort of takeover lots of
computing and then the other one

857
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:24,400
is If there's stuff outside of 
bars exact settlement system, 

858
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:27,200
how does it work in that? 
And so those are, those are 

859
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,300
pretty different. 
Let's start with the second one,

860
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,000
which is the cosmos SDK 
developer, who has, I don't 

861
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,600
know, maybe like an evm 
compatible app, or something 

862
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,300
like that, done on it using like
their own consensus system, 

863
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,100
right? 
I think in that scenario, what 

864
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:45,700
happens is because they're only 
building the consensus portion, 

865
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,400
and the blockchain portion on 
Cosmos a world in which Bar was 

866
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,500
very successful would be one in 
which developers were very used 

867
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:57,700
to developing these Urban 
applications in which users were

868
00:46:57,700 --> 00:47:03,300
very used to like installing and
using them and we could try to 

869
00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:05,600
imagine. 
Let's imagine that like for 

870
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,100
whatever reason that developers 
Cosmos SDK application has 

871
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:10,500
become very popular like running
outside of that. 

872
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,600
I think it's very likely that 
someone will, which might even 

873
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,900
be us will make a very strong. 
Let's say evm compatibility 

874
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:22,500
layer where if One has 
substantial assets and or like, 

875
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:25,600
interactions, they need to do 
with an outside and outside 

876
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,600
chain that they can do it, 
actually. 

877
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,900
In a similar way to how far does
which is, you know, you have 

878
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:34,700
some kind of like, you know, 
node reading that chain. 

879
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:37,600
You can do read and write or 
some kind of like graph style 

880
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,400
indexing through there, and I 
think there would be a lot of 

881
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,800
economic incentive for that to 
get built. 

882
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,500
But I do think that it is the 
case. 

883
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:54,800
That in that world, unless the 
developer was like, deploying 

884
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,600
something that really needed its
own consensus, or that was like 

885
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,100
a legacy application that needed
to get deployed there in that 

886
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:03,500
world where we part was that 
successful. 

887
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:08,500
They would probably deploy it 
on, you know, in a bar town that

888
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:11,400
said, I do think that, like, 
sort of already written an 

889
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,400
audited, evm type code will be 
with us for a while. 

890
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,400
And so I would expect at some 
point there will be some like 

891
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,200
compatibility layers that make 
that ingestible an But where 

892
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,200
maybe you're not writing new 
contracts and deploying them but

893
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,100
you are getting other ones. 
Now, the other one though you 

894
00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:31,400
correctly, you know got our 
goals which is if you are a 

895
00:48:31,408 --> 00:48:34,700
successful it will accrue. 
Lots of network effects like 

896
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:38,700
sort of apple style. 
We try to mostly have in terms 

897
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:43,400
of our economics have the way 
that we monetize that most be 

898
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,100
them like, people transaction on
the Google, like, you know, 

899
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:49,900
using the uke bar chain and we 
try to make everything else like

900
00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:54,400
Reopen like the application. 
So, you know, while I lead a 

901
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,300
while, becoming Apple would be a
great outcome financially. 

902
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,400
I think we do have a bit of a 
different ethos, because we have

903
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,800
a different way to monetize. 
And so everything we've done so 

904
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,900
far in terms of like, you know, 
chat stuff. 

905
00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:09,800
The things we're doing with 
Dows, social groupings, things, 

906
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,800
like, social applications coming
out, we've made all that open 

907
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,200
because the entire goal is just 
for people to use bar in a way 

908
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,500
that like, and also, you know, I
guess it's just To some degree 

909
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:24,000
that would also too if we were 
settling on and then like flow 

910
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,600
through to aetherium somewhat as
well, we'd see which assets were

911
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,500
used on the thing but we are 
trying to build very, very 

912
00:49:32,500 --> 00:49:35,800
strong Network effects in far. 
And have that be the place where

913
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,800
you go and have that also maker 
but apps like sort of the go to 

914
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,200
apps. 
And this is why I sort of 

915
00:49:41,207 --> 00:49:46,100
mentioned the AI angle because I
think without that to assist 

916
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:49,100
developers and also to make it 
easy for like, really easy for 

917
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:51,800
users to make these Art of throw
away programs that can just 

918
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,500
operate on all these, you know, 
bar Urban apis and the life. 

919
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,800
I think it's a little bit. 
It's harder to imagine that 

920
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,100
future happening, obviously, 
until recently, we were trying 

921
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:06,200
to make that future happen, but 
I think AI really increases the 

922
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,700
odds that we can, you know, that
we can do such a thing. 

923
00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:16,600
So I've always imagined right at
the way Urban would work is that

924
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,400
irbid as a whole would be this 
sort of like apple like system, 

925
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,600
right? 
Because you have this 

926
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,600
fundamental thing like a 
networking identity stuff that's

927
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,800
like unified and everything will
kind of work together like that.

928
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:34,100
But then I I think what we have 
seen interestingly, is that 

929
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:38,200
actually in? 
I don't well, so you have like 

930
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,600
some companies that now have 
built. 

931
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:44,000
More and I think pursuing a more
of a philosophy of this kind of 

932
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,600
like, you know, vertically 
integrated stack that like all 

933
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,000
works? 
Well yeah. 

934
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:51,800
Other and and you know for 
example there's a whole bunch of

935
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,700
different chat apps on honor bit
now and they're like, you know, 

936
00:50:56,900 --> 00:51:01,000
separate apps, right? 
So if I'm like messaging, you 

937
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,000
know, with you do Mark, right? 
And then on one app, then it's 

938
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:06,600
going to end. 
And I'm messaging. 

939
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,000
Same username, right? 
Like you on another app and it's

940
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,400
like separate. 
Relations. 

941
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,200
So where do I think that's going
or how do I want it to? 

942
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,000
How do I wanted to go? 
I mean, my actually I would say,

943
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000
sort of say that like my 
impression of work bar is much 

944
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,900
more. 
That is much more trying. 

945
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:26,700
You'd be this like thin 
transaction layer or like you 

946
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:31,300
know, basically covering like 
the smart contract portion and 

947
00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:35,500
then sort of, you know, because 
I think that's the other. 

948
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:37,800
That's so a little bit. 
The other approach where we can 

949
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,000
say like, okay, I'm going to try
to build like Some some 

950
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,000
component and then you know lots
of other people can build and 

951
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,800
stuff versus like being this 
building this kind of vertically

952
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,100
integrated full-stack thing that
it did enter being is sort of 

953
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:54,100
like Walled Garden a little. 
Yeah. 

954
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:56,900
So we're very uninterested in 
the Walled Garden. 

955
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,600
We very much like that vision of
urban as this like open system 

956
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,700
that a lot of, you know, that a 
lot of different applications 

957
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:09,400
can build on and compose and one
reason we're sort of We try to 

958
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,300
make our own programs. 
That maybe look a little bit 

959
00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:15,600
vertically integrated when we 
sort of, don't see something out

960
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,500
there that does what we want. 
So like we did do our own chat 

961
00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:23,400
that we use just because there 
wasn't anything else like that. 

962
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,700
Good out there and I think when 
we drop the next version of like

963
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:30,800
we're includes groups like on 
chain, Dow type structures, I 

964
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,400
think people will see that but 
our goal is not to be like you 

965
00:52:35,408 --> 00:52:38,300
know, a vertically integrated 
chat company. 

966
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,100
We're mostly just trying to, I 
think we see this moment in our 

967
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:46,800
beds life where a lot of these 
Primitives and protocols haven't

968
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,800
been made and instead of like 
trying to round people up and 

969
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,300
make a standard and tell them, 
they all have to follow our 

970
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:54,500
standard. 
We've just been like, okay, 

971
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:56,900
let's try to get the best thing 
out there that we can. 

972
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:00,000
If people start using it and we 
can build on an easily, that's 

973
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,800
great. 
We do try to leave them so that 

974
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,800
they're very very open. 
So actually a great example of 

975
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,100
this is we have like multiple 
other projects now building With

976
00:53:09,100 --> 00:53:12,000
our chat, Primitives with some 
of our social graph and like 

977
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,200
grouping Primitives. 
And we actually do work to sort 

978
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,200
of support them and make those 
happen, because it's not, again,

979
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,200
it's not really interesting to 
us to have that, Be in there. 

980
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,800
It's just that we think that 
that base layer of Primitives 

981
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,600
extends Beyond just the chain 
and we have to do a little bit 

982
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,000
of work to get other stuff out 
there which actually it makes 

983
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,200
sense. 
If you think about what we've 

984
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:34,900
been saying this whole time, 
which is what we just want 

985
00:53:34,900 --> 00:53:38,600
Richard apps to, if they're not,
there we have to show people 

986
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,200
then, and we're seeing a lot of 
people get interested, 

987
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,100
specifically, because of things 
that we've made and then want to

988
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:47,800
build Richard apps and that's 
mostly what we want. 

989
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,000
But in the, that's the short 
term and maybe medium. 

990
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,600
Term in the medium to long-term.
I want, you know, herb it to be 

991
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,600
its own, kind of Walled Garden. 
But for that, inside, that 

992
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,000
Walled Garden to be very very 
open. 

993
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,700
And for that to be this like, 
you know, Universal Computing 

994
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:06,400
system, which isn't, it's not 
that crazy to think about, 

995
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:10,100
because everything else is so 
centralized and hard to build 

996
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:13,100
on, and compose, which is sort 
of another topic we could hit if

997
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:17,200
necessary. 
Yeah I mean did the the 

998
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,000
fascinating thing in a way is 
that you can have both right? 

999
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,900
You can have people built like 
involved Garden type system 

1000
00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:26,300
honor bit which is is going to 
happen and then you can have 

1001
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:29,700
others build kind of open system
and everything runs on the same 

1002
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:33,000
OS. 
I think the walled Gardens, 

1003
00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:36,300
they'll be under pressure. 
Including the ones that like, 

1004
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:38,200
know things were making that are
internal. 

1005
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,200
I think, at some point some of 
them will get popular, they'll 

1006
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,800
become Open Standards. 
People will fit like build their

1007
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,800
own like let's say front. 
Ends for accessing, you know, 

1008
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,400
the chat apps that are dominant.
The those and we're just so 

1009
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,500
early that people in urban have 
tried to do it, like, for a 

1010
00:54:53,508 --> 00:54:55,600
while was like the social thing 
where someone would start 

1011
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,000
building, maybe a new app like 
in chat and people are like, oh 

1012
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,300
but don't, you know, Tom is 
making that or this other group 

1013
00:55:01,300 --> 00:55:04,800
is or something like that. 
And after a while we're like 

1014
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,300
this is stupid. 
We're so early. 

1015
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:09,200
It's just people like, you know,
a couple hundred people fighting

1016
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,800
over this, let's just like build
it and still like let that 

1017
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:17,000
process happen. 
So let's let's talk about 

1018
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,300
another topic. 
So it's kind of like another big

1019
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:24,900
topic, so you guys decided to 
build a rollup, I guess another 

1020
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:29,700
path would have been to build 
basically like a sort of layer 1

1021
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,600
irbid chain. 
What was the reason why you guys

1022
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,100
decided to go the roll-up path 
and not to build L1? 

1023
00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:50,200
To pump my if bugs. 
Now, the the reason was It lets 

1024
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:55,900
us when we understood our core 
value proposition better, which 

1025
00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:58,400
is about this, like, being able 
to enable these like very rich 

1026
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,800
applications better experiences 
for developers and users, you 

1027
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,200
start wanting to focus 
everything on that as long as 

1028
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,200
possible. 
And if we did our own chain with

1029
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,800
our own consensus, initially we 
would have a couple issues right

1030
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,800
off the bat which are fine and 
other chains kind of validly 

1031
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,300
want to do those. 
Right off the bat before us. 

1032
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:22,400
They weren't is interesting 
which is one you have to build 

1033
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,400
your validator set and like get 
that you know get that all going

1034
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,100
and another is that you do have 
to bridge if you want to get in 

1035
00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:34,500
assets from other ecosystems and
so which again it's fine. 

1036
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,600
It's a valid choice, I have 
there have been a number of 

1037
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:40,000
issues with security of that in 
there, so there's challenges and

1038
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,500
doing it. 
But it's you know, people do it.

1039
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:46,300
And it was just we didn't want 
to, if we don't do it as a 

1040
00:56:46,300 --> 00:56:50,500
rollup, initially then we have 
to spend more A money and like, 

1041
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:52,800
take longer because we have to 
do all that stuff. 

1042
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,300
We have to set up like things 
facilities for bridging, we have

1043
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:59,800
to set up and be confident sort 
of the game theory and security 

1044
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,300
there. 
We have to like build validator 

1045
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:05,700
sets and figure out like you 
know the economics of that plus 

1046
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:10,300
like you know finding them and 
the valid like the validator 

1047
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:12,500
approach. 
Lets us start the the role of 

1048
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:15,100
approach. 
Lets us just focus on. 

1049
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:18,600
Okay let's have this sequencer 
or set of sequencers that are 

1050
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,000
running and that And sort of 
just keep out of our mind while 

1051
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,800
we're doing it, which has been 
great the last few months to be 

1052
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,400
able to sort of, hold that 
steady as we iterate on other 

1053
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,400
things. 
And I guess also, I did have 

1054
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,900
this kind of feeling back in 
early 2022. 

1055
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:39,100
That Roll-Ups, we're going to 
get hotter and all tell ones. 

1056
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:42,300
We're going to lose some of 
their premium just for purely. 

1057
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:46,900
Sort of technical economic 
reasons, which I think is like 

1058
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:50,800
most to look at the, you know, 
No, the fully diluted valuations

1059
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,700
of the top, like, l2s or things 
that try to pretend they're LTS,

1060
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:57,300
like polygon, you know, they've 
generally been better than 

1061
00:57:57,300 --> 00:58:00,200
Solana effects like, you know, 
Luna Rest In Peace. 

1062
00:58:01,900 --> 00:58:07,500
So yeah. 
And I think in terms of the base

1063
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:11,100
layer and getting that, right, I
do think, like if you rem is 

1064
00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:16,100
doing really, really good work 
there and I don't want to, you 

1065
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:17,500
know, mess with that for the 
moment. 

1066
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:21,100
Now, of course, Is the moment 
that will come along and every 

1067
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:24,800
successful l2s life, like down 
the road which is okay. 

1068
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,600
Now you do have a lot of money 
on here, you are very successful

1069
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,400
you very easily could build, you
know, a validator set out of, 

1070
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,100
you know, what your token is. 
Does it make sense for you to 

1071
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:39,200
keep rolling up to aetherium? 
And I think anyone who says they

1072
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,900
can answer that like, you know, 
one way or another right now is 

1073
00:58:41,900 --> 00:58:45,300
lying and I think we absolutely 
could see, for example, like, 

1074
00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:48,500
you know, our btrim or our 
optimism has their own stuff for

1075
00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:50,300
their Folly. 
Wouldn't But, like, you could 

1076
00:58:50,300 --> 00:58:55,400
use on Stark not have that 
decision down the road and make 

1077
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,400
that in that direction, we're, 
it would be an, it will be a 

1078
00:58:59,408 --> 00:59:03,000
nice problem to have to think 
about where I think we would be 

1079
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,000
doing really, really well. 
And the first goal is just to 

1080
00:59:06,008 --> 00:59:10,600
get maximal like bar and urban 
adoption without distractions. 

1081
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,400
So I'm actually really happy 
that the sort of Base roll-up 

1082
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,600
architecture has been I guess 
like worked out enough now that 

1083
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,500
it's kind of boring and there 
isn't my I know I've gone over 

1084
00:59:21,500 --> 00:59:24,100
the various, you know, the 
literature seeing what people 

1085
00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:26,900
are doing and there's nothing 
very new or interesting in most 

1086
00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:29,700
cases which is great. 
It's like somewhat commoditized 

1087
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:32,800
and we can sort of just go to it
slowly while knowing that'll be 

1088
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,800
there as an option. 
And then if we're super 

1089
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,900
successful, we can have those 
discussions down the road as 

1090
00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:39,900
will. 
Everyone else who is, you know, 

1091
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:46,500
very successful with an L2. 
So, in, in going down the role 

1092
00:59:46,500 --> 00:59:50,800
of path, of course, the massive 
Branch point is between 

1093
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,100
optimistic Roll-Ups, which 
ensure our security through Game

1094
00:59:55,100 --> 01:00:00,700
Theory and ZK Roll-Ups, which 
ensure their security through 

1095
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,800
zero, knowledge, cryptographic 
proofs, and you've chosen these 

1096
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,500
EK roll up part so sort of sort 
of okay. 

1097
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:13,000
So so yes it does. 
It's like what path you have 

1098
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:17,400
chosen and kind of what are the 
major technical decisions of 

1099
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,000
business decisions. 
You have if taken on that path, 

1100
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,800
ZK. 
Roll-Ups in my opinion, are 

1101
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,300
obviously desirable in the long 
run because as you said, you 

1102
01:00:29,308 --> 01:00:31,900
don't have to secure anything 
with Game Theory, which gives 

1103
01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:34,600
you a lot more options for 
things like data availability. 

1104
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,300
It's a lot safer to do. 
Various let's say like the 

1105
01:00:38,300 --> 01:00:41,300
lidium type schemes, where 
you're not writing the data to 

1106
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:43,300
layer one of helium or whatever 
layer one you're doing. 

1107
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,400
If you're using ZK, because now 
you have, like, sort of two 

1108
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,700
pieces of Game Theory to get 
right there. 

1109
01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:51,800
If you're trying to an 
optimistic roll up that uses the

1110
01:00:51,808 --> 01:00:55,000
lydians, it's very Bard and 
generally it hasn't been, you 

1111
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:01,200
know, hasn't been taught that 
said, ZK stuff is advancing very

1112
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,400
fast and if you put too much 
work into getting it, all right,

1113
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,900
right now, you can put in a lot 
of work and then find out that 

1114
01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:11,400
like one year later you wouldn't
have had to put in nearly as 

1115
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,300
much work for the same result. 
And so you've basically wasted a

1116
01:01:14,308 --> 01:01:17,000
lot of time and money for 
something which isn't really our

1117
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:21,200
core value proposition, which 
is, you know, creating this like

1118
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,200
developer user ecosystem. 
Natively on Urban. 

1119
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,400
So the best balance we found for
that. 

1120
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,900
So far is to have a progression.
That's kind of as rapid as we 

1121
01:01:31,900 --> 01:01:34,900
can make it. 
So first part of the progression

1122
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:38,200
is you know what? 
Our value proposition is making 

1123
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:39,800
this like sherbet developer 
user. 

1124
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,500
Ecosystem will start our roll up
on test. 

1125
01:01:43,500 --> 01:01:46,600
Net in proof of authority mode. 
Like we just say, this is the 

1126
01:01:46,607 --> 01:01:49,700
state and this was the state 
transition then but while we're 

1127
01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:52,500
architecting that it's not like 
a dumb proof of authority where 

1128
01:01:52,500 --> 01:01:55,400
you just Like right, the new 
state and that's it. 

1129
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,600
You also make sure to implement 
data availability at the same 

1130
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,200
time and also, you know, the 
various sort of mechanics, 

1131
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,000
making sure that, you know, 
deposits and withdrawals work, 

1132
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,900
right? 
And can be proven and so that 

1133
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:08,800
you can switch that to in 
optimistic mode. 

1134
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,900
Now if you go to an optimistic 
mode then you have the question 

1135
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:16,600
of like do you turn your fraud 
proofs on like optimism still 

1136
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,800
hasn't done that are Beach from 
has but with permissioning but 

1137
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,700
optimism is still proof of 
authority. 

1138
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:24,300
Like just trust me bro. 
But just the billions of dollars

1139
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,900
which is, which is fine, 
actually, get their reasoning, 

1140
01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:29,700
which is that their main value 
proposition is being this thing 

1141
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:34,400
that can become an optimistic 
roll up and that like people 

1142
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,800
trust it enough to be like, it's
basically, you know, if you re 

1143
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,700
m-- side chain that people like 
the tooling on and that's good. 

1144
01:02:39,700 --> 01:02:42,500
That's it's working for them. 
The thing we can do next though.

1145
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,800
A lot of progress being made on 
sort of urban native, ZK proofs,

1146
01:02:46,100 --> 01:02:50,200
we did that internally in a bar 
and then some of the guys doing 

1147
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,800
that, spun out to form zorp, 
which is a separate. 

1148
01:02:52,900 --> 01:02:57,500
Russian doing ZK, proofs of 
like, knocking Hoon code and 

1149
01:02:57,500 --> 01:02:59,000
their stuff is going really, 
really well. 

1150
01:02:59,300 --> 01:03:02,900
And we talk to them a lot. 
We work with them closely and 

1151
01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:06,300
will probably be able to jump 
from instead of going from proof

1152
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:09,000
of authority to optimistic. 
It's very likely will be able to

1153
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,900
jump straight to, I guess, I 
would say optimistic, ZK, where 

1154
01:03:12,900 --> 01:03:16,300
it's optimistic, but instead of 
having a long challenge 

1155
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:20,200
procedure for resolving a fraud 
proof, you just submit a ZK 

1156
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,200
proof for the fraud proof. 
The reason, You can do that when

1157
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,700
ZK might not be ready yet. 
Is that for if you're doing a 

1158
01:03:27,707 --> 01:03:31,200
typical ZK, roll up, you have to
prove every transaction and so 

1159
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,200
you need some, they need to be 
fast if you need to be doing 

1160
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,000
those in like, whatever it is 
like a second per transaction of

1161
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,100
tenth of a second per 
transaction, proving them fast 

1162
01:03:38,100 --> 01:03:40,700
enough. 
If you do this optimistic, ZK 

1163
01:03:40,700 --> 01:03:45,500
thing you only need to prove the
batch when there's a problem. 

1164
01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:48,100
And so in that case like if 
someone Flags it and there's a 

1165
01:03:48,107 --> 01:03:51,500
problem, you actually could take
like three hours to prove the 

1166
01:03:51,500 --> 01:03:54,100
batch of like let's say a Your 
transactions are thousand 

1167
01:03:54,100 --> 01:03:55,800
transactions and it's totally 
fine. 

1168
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,500
In fact it's a lot better from 
the game theory perspective 

1169
01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:01,700
because you then only need one 
on chain transaction to prove 

1170
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:03,600
it. 
So it's very, very likely that 

1171
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,400
when we launch week bar on Main 
net, it will probably be proof 

1172
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:13,500
of authority but ready to turn 
immediately to a ZK optimistic 

1173
01:04:13,500 --> 01:04:15,300
system? 
And then from there, it's 

1174
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:17,500
literally just a matter of 
marching through the 

1175
01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:21,900
optimizations to get regular ZK 
fast enough which were pretty 

1176
01:04:21,900 --> 01:04:24,500
pretty optimistic on. 
On but we're extremely 

1177
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:28,300
optimistic on optimistic, CK. 
So this is all very pragmatic 

1178
01:04:28,300 --> 01:04:33,600
and it's just focused on how 
fast can we get people 

1179
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,100
interacting with our core value 
proposition, which is the sort 

1180
01:04:37,100 --> 01:04:40,800
of, er, 'but ecosystem where 
you're doing stuff on it for 

1181
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:45,700
real money and we're probably 
more limited even by audits then

1182
01:04:45,700 --> 01:04:50,100
by ZK or optimistic. 
And so what we'll probably do is

1183
01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:52,300
that system I was talking about 
throwing out on maenette, 

1184
01:04:52,300 --> 01:04:56,500
probably Leave this summer will 
probably have a deposit limited.

1185
01:04:56,500 --> 01:04:59,700
We're can only take a certain 
amount of ether ERC 20s, just so

1186
01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:02,700
that, you know, people don't put
in hundreds of millions or 

1187
01:05:02,700 --> 01:05:05,300
billions of dollars of tvl and 
then something happens. 

1188
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:09,300
And then GG, U Bar. 
I think we'll, you know, try to 

1189
01:05:09,300 --> 01:05:11,600
have it be like, okay, you 
should be responsibly putting on

1190
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,600
like, you know, a couple 
thousand dollars or something or

1191
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:14,900
whatever, you can afford to 
lose. 

1192
01:05:16,300 --> 01:05:19,300
But yeah, that's that's sort of 
the way that we think about that

1193
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:23,200
and the either way to sum it all
up is You have the technology 

1194
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:25,700
and The Game Theory, plus 
technical Primitives. 

1195
01:05:25,700 --> 01:05:28,700
And you want to make that sort 
of maximally accelerate your 

1196
01:05:28,700 --> 01:05:32,800
core value proposition. 
And so when I see other l2s that

1197
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,000
are making decisions like we 
said, with optimism of not 

1198
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,900
enabling for all proofs yet, I 
actually don't hate on it at all

1199
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:41,100
and I get exactly what they're 
doing, which is they can kind of

1200
01:05:41,100 --> 01:05:43,500
see where things are going. 
They've also thought of, you 

1201
01:05:43,500 --> 01:05:46,700
know, going from optimistic 
optimistic ZK, which makes 

1202
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:49,000
sense, and they're just trying 
to, like, you know, have that 

1203
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,600
make sure they do have a plan at
least in the long run to have it

1204
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:52,300
in. 
Sect. 

1205
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,200
So, you know, our situation is 
very similar, it's just we'll 

1206
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,100
probably get to something 
secure. 

1207
01:05:57,100 --> 01:06:04,800
Maybe faster - its I have a 
question here in terms of like 

1208
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:09,800
the finality. 
So if this optimistic, CK, if 

1209
01:06:10,300 --> 01:06:14,300
let's say in you examples, okay?
Maybe you can take three. 

1210
01:06:14,300 --> 01:06:17,100
I mean, I guess there's like 
some time needed for somebody, 

1211
01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:20,500
say, hey, that was an issue of 
this transaction and then some 

1212
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:24,400
time needed for like someone to 
create the approve and submit 

1213
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,600
it. 
And then, that is kind of like, 

1214
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:33,100
whatever window you have to sort
of be able to live Viv that 

1215
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:37,300
until you have finality or like 
how do you think of this sort of

1216
01:06:37,308 --> 01:06:41,700
like you know, the the finality 
time that guarantees of 

1217
01:06:41,700 --> 01:06:45,100
obviously the pure ZK is the 
best because you can just be 

1218
01:06:45,100 --> 01:06:48,200
final. 
Once you're on within whatever 

1219
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,700
the batch time is that you're 
doing it for optimistic. 

1220
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:56,900
People usually have done a week.
The reason is that you often 

1221
01:06:56,900 --> 01:06:59,800
have to do multiple challenges 
like the way our be trimmed. 

1222
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:01,200
Does it is like a bisection 
thing. 

1223
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,300
Where tldr Are you could maybe 
have to do 15 30 different 

1224
01:07:05,300 --> 01:07:08,700
transactions to sort of complete
the fraud proof. 

1225
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,000
And so you have to make sure 
there's enough time not just to 

1226
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:15,100
find the fraud but to get 
through all the transactions, in

1227
01:07:15,100 --> 01:07:17,600
an adversarial environment where
someone might be doing the 

1228
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:21,400
calculation of, I'm fine to das.
The etherium network, would diss

1229
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,300
many transactions and pay this 
much money, because I'll be able

1230
01:07:24,300 --> 01:07:26,600
to withdraw more than that from 
the roll-up. 

1231
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,500
If it gets through, in that 
window, if you have this like 

1232
01:07:30,500 --> 01:07:35,500
optimistic, ZK, you only Need 
one proof and so that should 

1233
01:07:35,500 --> 01:07:39,500
reduce the finality window by a 
decent amount because you don't 

1234
01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:41,500
have to calculate it. 
So like that you don't have to 

1235
01:07:41,500 --> 01:07:44,000
worry about them dosing it for 
like 15 to you know 

1236
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,200
transactions. 
You only need one transaction to

1237
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,200
get through but you know, off 
the top of my head it would 

1238
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:52,500
probably be more in like, you 
know, one to three-day range for

1239
01:07:52,500 --> 01:07:58,800
find out for finality on it. 
But even that would be a little 

1240
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,100
bit of a stopgap while we go to 
full. 

1241
01:08:02,300 --> 01:08:06,100
ZK because I just, I don't 
really like the, you know, sort 

1242
01:08:06,100 --> 01:08:10,400
of multiple time finality that 
said within each bar. 

1243
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,400
If you're talking about 
transferring from one hookah 

1244
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,400
bar, like let's call him Shard, 
we call them towns to another. 

1245
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,300
You can get faster like as long 
as you sort of trust that the 

1246
01:08:19,300 --> 01:08:21,800
main thing on chain won't get 
rolled back. 

1247
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,399
You can let those shards talk to
each other pretty rapidly 

1248
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:29,600
because you don't have to worry 
about if one gets rolled back. 

1249
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:33,000
They all like they all get 
rolled back but Again, another 

1250
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:38,600
good reason to get to ZK as soon
as possible but also worth 

1251
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,899
keeping in mind that even if we 
got there tomorrow and had a 

1252
01:08:41,907 --> 01:08:44,200
full ZK system, we would still 
have to audit the rest of the 

1253
01:08:44,207 --> 01:08:47,300
system. 
So it's not sort of worth it. 

1254
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:50,200
We're trying to like make 
everything go together a little 

1255
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,100
bit later in the year or early 
next year. 

1256
01:08:53,300 --> 01:08:55,600
So we can stitch a few things 
that you have mentioned 

1257
01:08:55,600 --> 01:09:02,300
together. earlier in the 
episode, you talked about how 

1258
01:09:02,300 --> 01:09:07,399
the developer experience of 
Hookah bar, and irbid will be 

1259
01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:11,200
the same or similar which means 
people will be able to write 

1260
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,200
smart contracts in Horn and 
deploy them to bookmark. 

1261
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,500
And then later you mentioned 
that eventually you would like 

1262
01:09:20,899 --> 01:09:26,200
Akbar to be a z Carolla and in 
the short run and optimistic 

1263
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:30,500
seek a role of where If 
something goes wrong or Oak Bar,

1264
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:34,300
it can be proven on is helium. 
That something went wrong. 

1265
01:09:35,100 --> 01:09:38,899
So if you put the two things 
together, it feels like the 

1266
01:09:38,899 --> 01:09:42,600
essential primitive that you 
need is for a developer to be 

1267
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:47,800
able to write a program in hoon 
and then have that program be 

1268
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:53,399
executed somewhere and then 
generate a zero, knowledge proof

1269
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,800
for the results of of that 
program's execution. 

1270
01:09:58,300 --> 01:10:03,800
Because absent, that primitive. 
Cooper, cooper could neither be 

1271
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:05,100
an optimistic. 
ZK, roll-up. 

1272
01:10:05,100 --> 01:10:07,700
Now be a full zekiel. 
Not in the jealous. 

1273
01:10:09,300 --> 01:10:13,600
So how and this is like an oven 
challenge, right? 

1274
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,400
Like you have you have the whole
language. 

1275
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:20,400
So you want to program in home 
for execute it somewhere. 

1276
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,700
You need to generate a zero 
knowledge proof that the 

1277
01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:28,000
program's execution resulted in 
this particular result. 

1278
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,100
So, how are you solving that 
problem? 

1279
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,100
That primitive? 
So specifically like just 

1280
01:10:34,100 --> 01:10:35,600
executing the zero knowledge 
proof. 

1281
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,600
So you have a transaction in 
each bar and you need to do it. 

1282
01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:42,400
Meaning any, how do you generate
the proof and how do you verify 

1283
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:46,100
the proof and how are you 
attacking the problem of, you 

1284
01:10:46,108 --> 01:10:49,600
know, depth building or 
developing a proof generator? 

1285
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,100
Yeah. 
This is the answer is sort of 

1286
01:10:52,100 --> 01:10:56,100
boring unfortunately, which is 
for verifying the proof. 

1287
01:10:56,100 --> 01:10:58,700
There's pretty standard stuff 
that you can roll on with 

1288
01:10:58,700 --> 01:11:01,400
whatever system you're using to 
put it on to deploy it on a 

1289
01:11:01,407 --> 01:11:05,200
theorem and have it verified 
that for generating the proof. 

1290
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,000
This is where we did a lot of 
sort of initial feasible. 

1291
01:11:09,100 --> 01:11:13,400
Bility research and then have 
some of that internally but 

1292
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,600
zorp. 
This other orbit company has 

1293
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,700
made such fast progress on 
specifically proving orbit 

1294
01:11:19,700 --> 01:11:24,300
programs of actually, any kind, 
not just our transactions, but 

1295
01:11:24,300 --> 01:11:26,500
since we part transactions, are 
Urban programs. 

1296
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:31,800
They get those and they've made 
such fast progress on that, that

1297
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,400
we actually can just, we've been
negotiating, a deal with them 

1298
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:38,200
contingent on them getting it 
working. 

1299
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,900
Which seems We're going to be 
demoing the first version on 

1300
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:45,100
this Wednesday, I guess, on 
Friday, but literally you throw 

1301
01:11:45,100 --> 01:11:47,900
in an urban program. 
It spits out a proof. 

1302
01:11:48,300 --> 01:11:51,400
You throw in, you know, a 
thousand bar transactions. 

1303
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:55,000
It spits out a proof of those 
that you can use for this 

1304
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,800
validation. 
And so, while that answer is 

1305
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,200
boring, the implications of it 
are really interesting which is 

1306
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:06,700
that not only Will Herb it. 
Be this like place where you can

1307
01:12:06,700 --> 01:12:09,000
write these rich applications 
that interact. 

1308
01:12:09,100 --> 01:12:11,300
With the blockchain. 
There's one other thing that's 

1309
01:12:11,300 --> 01:12:15,200
sort of catnip Barnard snipey to
blockchain programmers. 

1310
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:18,300
And people around that which is 
the ability to zero like easy, 

1311
01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:22,900
zero-knowledge proofs and we 
will likely have the ability to 

1312
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,300
eat, not just for your on chain 
bar transactions. 

1313
01:12:26,300 --> 01:12:29,500
But even stuff that happens off 
chain that you want to prove, 

1314
01:12:30,300 --> 01:12:32,800
you know, make these proofs that
something was done, right? 

1315
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,200
So an example of that off chain 
would be and also you can vary 

1316
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:40,100
Loop bar so we can deploy not 
just Program on a theory on that

1317
01:12:40,100 --> 01:12:41,900
can verify proofs. 
We can deploy a program on 

1318
01:12:41,900 --> 01:12:44,700
hookah bar that can verify these
zero-knowledge proofs. 

1319
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,900
And so, what that would look 
like is imagine, I don't know, 

1320
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:50,700
you have like a game world that 
someone enters and puts in 

1321
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:53,600
Assets, in order to like, do 
fights, or something like that. 

1322
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:58,500
And at the end of it, they just 
they need to, like, run a proof 

1323
01:12:58,500 --> 01:13:01,600
run approver on all of the 
actions, they took and the code 

1324
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,800
that happened and proved they 
followed the rules of that game 

1325
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:05,900
world. 
And then they can, you know, 

1326
01:13:05,900 --> 01:13:08,800
withdraw more assets, 
potentially or lose some, you 

1327
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:10,400
know. 
Depending on how it went, and I 

1328
01:13:10,407 --> 01:13:14,800
think there's this whole world 
of verifying Computing 

1329
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:17,100
completely off chain stuff that 
happens. 

1330
01:13:17,100 --> 01:13:19,800
And then using that, to trigger 
on chain of events, but having 

1331
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,100
that be at consumer scale that 
we're really, really excited 

1332
01:13:23,100 --> 01:13:25,100
about. 
So we went this actually these 

1333
01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:31,100
like to the blockchain aspect is
actually maybe the most basic 

1334
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:35,000
and simple which is literally we
license, you know, I think from 

1335
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,800
them we probably do some kind of
license where it's open for 

1336
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,000
people to use. 
Long as they just use it for 

1337
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,500
require so they don't have the 
you know, Stark where problem of

1338
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:44,200
not being able to access the 
provers. 

1339
01:13:44,900 --> 01:13:47,900
But then they have this whole 
other world of, you know they 

1340
01:13:47,900 --> 01:13:52,200
can go and you know license 
proving or do proving that lets 

1341
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,900
them do. 
All of these arbitrary off chain

1342
01:13:54,900 --> 01:13:58,700
interactions, they can prove on 
chain that they followed some 

1343
01:13:58,700 --> 01:14:02,500
set of rules in order to unlike 
in order to unlock things and so

1344
01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:05,900
we're very excited about that. 
It's definitely something we 

1345
01:14:05,900 --> 01:14:09,800
want to mark it really heavily 
as this additional T government 

1346
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,600
programs, but it was sort of 
just, we didn't know until very 

1347
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,700
recently that it would happen. 
Basically, the timeline was, it 

1348
01:14:16,700 --> 01:14:18,700
must have been March, maybe 13th
14th. 

1349
01:14:18,700 --> 01:14:21,900
We have the conversations with 
zorp, where we saw, how far 

1350
01:14:21,900 --> 01:14:23,900
stuff was getting and how this 
would be a thing that we could 

1351
01:14:23,900 --> 01:14:25,700
also offer to loop our 
developers. 

1352
01:14:26,700 --> 01:14:28,100
You know, then we're thinking 
about that. 

1353
01:14:28,100 --> 01:14:32,200
Then all of the GPT for Stuff 
hit and we had to also think 

1354
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:34,900
about AI at the same time and 
figure out like that strategy, 

1355
01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:38,600
but I don't want to downplay the
ZK side. 

1356
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:42,000
It's Like one of the most 
interesting things happening on 

1357
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:46,700
orbit and like in bar and we 
think that, you know, kind of, 

1358
01:14:46,700 --> 01:14:49,900
if you liked Stark what like 
Stark net like you'll love. 

1359
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,100
You'll love this. 
Because you can everything you 

1360
01:14:53,100 --> 01:14:55,700
learn in terms of writing Hoon 
programs for having a computer. 

1361
01:14:55,700 --> 01:14:59,200
Right for you, you will soon be 
able to just proven ZK and it's 

1362
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:03,000
really wild and people aren't 
don't really know about it yet, 

1363
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,400
and we'll probably just have to 
show them in order for them to 

1364
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,400
believe it because it's kind of 
a wild claim. 

1365
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,400
So, indeed, in the rest of this 
ecosystem, there's broadly 

1366
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:18,500
broadly, like, I'm not talking 
about Akbar or sore, this 

1367
01:15:18,500 --> 01:15:22,900
broadly to two, approaches to 
the building. 

1368
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:25,600
No smart contract capable, ZK 
system. 

1369
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:31,000
So one approach is That you 
develop your own virtual 

1370
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,900
machine, which is different 
from. 

1371
01:15:32,900 --> 01:15:35,700
The ethereum virtual machine has
a different set of instructions.

1372
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,100
But you architect, those 
instructions in a way that 

1373
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:44,300
Creating zero knowledge proof is
easier and then you have some 

1374
01:15:44,300 --> 01:15:48,400
kind of domain-specific language
built to utilize that virtual 

1375
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,000
machine. 
So most famous example of this 

1376
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:54,900
approach is Startin it which 
virtual machine is different, 

1377
01:15:54,900 --> 01:15:59,000
and then the domain-specific 
language on top of it is Cairo, 

1378
01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:04,100
which is different from from 
solidity, and then, so that's 

1379
01:16:04,100 --> 01:16:07,700
kind of one approach. 
And then the second second kind 

1380
01:16:07,700 --> 01:16:12,600
of approach is All of these 
projects that are trying to 

1381
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:16,800
build a zeeky zeeky evm of sorts
o. 

1382
01:16:16,900 --> 01:16:19,400
So this would this would be 
polygons. 

1383
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:23,300
But then there are there are 
other projects as well maybe 

1384
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:26,900
three or four of them that are 
trying to build is ETA e VM in 

1385
01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:31,400
which the virtual machine, the 
instructions of the virtual 

1386
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:35,100
machine are the same as as 
etherium and you're trying to 

1387
01:16:35,100 --> 01:16:38,400
develop a kind of approval that 
can kind of reuse those 

1388
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:43,200
instructions and And and, and 
build the proofs. 

1389
01:16:43,900 --> 01:16:48,800
So Given that there are these 
two approaches. 

1390
01:16:50,500 --> 01:16:53,900
And you're just by, you may just
end up buying the technology of 

1391
01:16:53,900 --> 01:16:56,800
Zorb. 
What camp, do you belong in? 

1392
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:01,000
And what kind of constraints 
does that imply for the future? 

1393
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:06,700
We're very were very, obviously 
in the old VM, like start NAT 

1394
01:17:06,700 --> 01:17:10,900
type approach, where we're not 
like making our smart contracts 

1395
01:17:10,900 --> 01:17:14,600
evm because we have a good 
reason not to, which is that, we

1396
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,900
want them to be maximally 
integrated in orbit. 

1397
01:17:18,700 --> 01:17:20,200
So that's that decision sort of 
already. 

1398
01:17:20,300 --> 01:17:22,600
Made for us. 
And then the fact that, you 

1399
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,300
know, parties legs or per making
a lot of progress on improving, 

1400
01:17:25,300 --> 01:17:28,000
those native Urban transactions 
makes everything pretty smooth 

1401
01:17:28,300 --> 01:17:31,200
in terms of ZK e VM. 
I think it's important to just 

1402
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:35,500
say how I think about the evm in
general because it's been very 

1403
01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:37,600
successful. 
It's very widespread, there's a 

1404
01:17:37,608 --> 01:17:40,900
lot of audited code that runs on
it for like large amounts of 

1405
01:17:40,900 --> 01:17:45,800
money, and I think it's going to
sound - if I say this, but I 

1406
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,500
mean, it in a very positive way.
It's a lot like COBOL where you 

1407
01:17:49,500 --> 01:17:53,900
have like, Lots of unfortunate 
and we have like a lot of code 

1408
01:17:54,100 --> 01:17:58,000
that runs billions trillions of 
dollars that runs on kobol. 

1409
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,800
Still like four Banks. 
They know it works, they use it,

1410
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,300
it's hard to find, you know, 
people who want to like program 

1411
01:18:04,300 --> 01:18:06,900
on it or do it but you know, 
it's there and that's going to 

1412
01:18:06,907 --> 01:18:08,600
be with us for some amount of 
time. 

1413
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:12,700
And I think that the evm is very
similar and so I think that 

1414
01:18:13,300 --> 01:18:16,800
steps towards having given that 
that we're going to have evm 

1415
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,300
code with us for some time 
managing billions of dollars. 

1416
01:18:19,300 --> 01:18:21,800
Whether it's on, you know, 
Cerium, cause most obviously 

1417
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,500
Avalanche did that like heavily.
But everyone who uses the evm 

1418
01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:29,500
wants access to those programs 
given that we need. 

1419
01:18:29,500 --> 01:18:32,900
ZK, V, Ms, because this is 
better than the optimistic setup

1420
01:18:32,900 --> 01:18:37,800
and those projects are all 
making great progress there and 

1421
01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:41,300
I think it will eventually work.
I think we couldn't. 

1422
01:18:41,300 --> 01:18:44,700
We could see things even, like, 
successful or wealthy optimistic

1423
01:18:44,700 --> 01:18:47,700
projects, like optimism or abuse
from switch to ZK because I 

1424
01:18:47,708 --> 01:18:49,300
think it's getting very 
commoditized. 

1425
01:18:49,700 --> 01:18:52,300
I would actually Spect to see 
that polygon sort of leading the

1426
01:18:52,300 --> 01:18:55,500
way there in terms of just 
trying to go directly to that. 

1427
01:18:56,300 --> 01:19:00,900
So for us like it's just a 
different Universe, I think the 

1428
01:19:00,900 --> 01:19:04,800
most likely Universe if you bar 
wins and if evm code is still 

1429
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:08,000
running is that we'll have we'll
probably sponsor or work with 

1430
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:11,700
some projects to make a clean 
interface for ingesting evm data

1431
01:19:11,700 --> 01:19:17,100
from the most popular l2s or 
l1's into orbit, like bar 

1432
01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:19,000
programs. 
And you know, then people you 

1433
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,400
know, if they have some multi, 
With like, you know, tens of 

1434
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,600
millions of dollars that they 
just for what they want to have 

1435
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,400
on gnosis, you know, they can 
they can do that. 

1436
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:35,000
But as far as we go, there's no 
reason for us to it would be it 

1437
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,000
would be a lot more work to make
our thing. 

1438
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,900
Evm compatible and ZK provable 
in the evm. 

1439
01:19:41,100 --> 01:19:43,100
And at the end of it, our payoff
would be that people had to 

1440
01:19:43,100 --> 01:19:45,800
write, you know, solidity or 
similar programs Insider but 

1441
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,500
which we don't really want it 
also, you know, we want to have 

1442
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,900
our own thing. 
Get maximum adoption for our old

1443
01:19:51,900 --> 01:19:55,400
VM settling to a theorem. 
And then later on do the work to

1444
01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:58,600
be, you know, be able to ingest 
and right to evm contracts on 

1445
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,900
other chains for sure which I 
guess also sort of addresses 

1446
01:20:01,900 --> 01:20:05,000
your question from earlier about
the poor, you know Cosmos SDK 

1447
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,700
developer with a popular chain. 
Who has this thing? 

1448
01:20:07,700 --> 01:20:10,000
That that sort of the answer for
him is that if it's evm 

1449
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:13,500
compatible, we would likely do 
the work to make it, you know, 

1450
01:20:13,500 --> 01:20:16,100
ingestible from his as long as 
you use, like standard tooling. 

1451
01:20:18,900 --> 01:20:22,800
And so this aren't alt VM that 
your stack is based on. 

1452
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:27,400
Is it, is it the same or to be 
MSS star player or a? 

1453
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:32,100
No, we are no, no, no. 
So that's a turbot no, it's 

1454
01:20:32,100 --> 01:20:32,600
Urban. 
Yeah. 

1455
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,800
It's just like a normal rvm is 
inner bit program. 

1456
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:38,100
It's like maybe a thousand lines
of code. 

1457
01:20:38,100 --> 01:20:40,200
It's not very big. 
It's like it's there. 

1458
01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:46,300
It takes in transactions that 
are orbit data in the normal 

1459
01:20:46,300 --> 01:20:50,100
form, it processes them within 
In written in orbit and it spits

1460
01:20:50,100 --> 01:20:53,700
out, orbit data on the other end
that we can, then serialize for 

1461
01:20:53,700 --> 01:20:56,500
posting data, availability on of
Olivia Moore to aetherium. 

1462
01:20:57,100 --> 01:21:02,400
And because of that, we're, 
that's why we're able to take, 

1463
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:05,700
let's say, a ZK, proving 
solution that wasn't developed 

1464
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:08,900
for bar, in particular legs 
orbs, which is just for proving 

1465
01:21:08,900 --> 01:21:14,900
Urban code in general and say we
have our B code prove this and 

1466
01:21:14,900 --> 01:21:18,300
it shows, you know, should just 
work the only for people who 

1467
01:21:18,300 --> 01:21:20,300
want to get Get really Technical
and put, don't wanna bore your 

1468
01:21:20,300 --> 01:21:22,600
listeners, but orbit has these 
things called Jets. 

1469
01:21:22,700 --> 01:21:25,700
Which basically, if you have 
some piece of code, it processes

1470
01:21:25,700 --> 01:21:29,800
them faster using may be 
essentially in a foreign 

1471
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:34,300
function interface and in those 
cases, you have to make you have

1472
01:21:34,300 --> 01:21:38,800
to decide on what your set of 
jets is for the ZK approver of 

1473
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:42,900
like beforehand and sort of say 
I'm proving a transaction, 

1474
01:21:42,900 --> 01:21:44,600
assuming the existence of these 
Jets. 

1475
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:46,400
But I don't want to go too far 
in there. 

1476
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:51,700
The basic message is you, Of, 
you know, we are engine rvm. 

1477
01:21:51,700 --> 01:21:56,300
Is just a turbot code and we 
proved our bit code when we were

1478
01:21:56,300 --> 01:22:00,000
using Stark where's products 
back in the summer, what we were

1479
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,600
doing was using them to 
essentially, write Urban 

1480
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,700
interpreters. 
So we would write a program in 

1481
01:22:04,700 --> 01:22:08,600
Cairo in Stark where's language 
that would take in orbit code 

1482
01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:11,300
and prove and generate proofs 
that it was done, right, 

1483
01:22:11,300 --> 01:22:14,500
according to Urban schools but 
you know, cutting out the 

1484
01:22:14,500 --> 01:22:16,900
middleman to some degree and 
having a more native system for 

1485
01:22:16,900 --> 01:22:19,600
it is probably going to be 
beneficial well, if we had to go

1486
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,800
back to that, you know we could 
But it's unlikely at this point.

1487
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,300
Cool. 
So one question set of as as you

1488
01:22:28,300 --> 01:22:32,100
get to a c and so one question 
I'm curious about when it comes 

1489
01:22:32,100 --> 01:22:37,600
to use cases that you want to 
see people build and that like 

1490
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,200
you know you most excited about 
and that you think would be, you

1491
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:45,000
know, the things that will 
really leverage or and Herb, its

1492
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,500
capabilities, you know, the best
and that that are kind of going 

1493
01:22:49,500 --> 01:22:53,800
to be the things that can really
like take off in the next year. 

1494
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:57,400
Two years. 
Are there particular things you 

1495
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:00,700
have in mind, you have a sort of
list of like things I want to 

1496
01:23:00,708 --> 01:23:07,000
see built. 
Yes, I want to say that we need 

1497
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,700
to see them. 
Develop still I kind of make our

1498
01:23:09,700 --> 01:23:13,200
imagination, go further. 
But I think everything in the 

1499
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:18,300
world of social but social 
meaning, everything like related

1500
01:23:18,300 --> 01:23:21,200
to, you know, networks where 
you're posting information and 

1501
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:23,200
having stuff come in and 
communicating with people. 

1502
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,900
Dowels are an example discords, 
everything in there. 

1503
01:23:26,900 --> 01:23:35,100
We want to ingest everything 
like then that can in the social

1504
01:23:35,100 --> 01:23:38,600
plus like game type world. 
I think is really is really 

1505
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:42,500
interesting like and um and 
we're actually talking with some

1506
01:23:42,500 --> 01:23:46,100
like game projects to onboard 
them because one of the best 

1507
01:23:46,100 --> 01:23:48,800
things that we can provide is 
this like, you know, just sort 

1508
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:53,700
of full crypto plus social plus,
you know, chatting Etc 

1509
01:23:53,700 --> 01:23:56,900
integration into their, I guess 
one way I would say it is that 

1510
01:23:56,900 --> 01:24:00,200
right now a lot of herb it 
people just for coordinating 

1511
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:03,000
their development, use stuff 
like Other dot town, where they 

1512
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,400
can go on and like chat with 
each other and have like, you 

1513
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,500
know, some environments to like 
go play with. 

1514
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,400
I'd like to see stuff like that.
But much much richer. 

1515
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:14,400
I'd like to see things like what
people use, Twitter Discord, 

1516
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:20,300
other social for, but much much 
like much, much richer, and DOW 

1517
01:24:20,300 --> 01:24:23,500
like in it. 
The thing that we're not going 

1518
01:24:23,500 --> 01:24:26,300
for As Much from the start is 
the typical thing that people do

1519
01:24:26,300 --> 01:24:31,500
when they launched a chain which
is try to you know, copy like 

1520
01:24:31,500 --> 01:24:34,600
you No, make some amm clones and
don't want to look good today. 

1521
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:38,100
Yeah, he's loved it. 
And like does it and we have one

1522
01:24:38,100 --> 01:24:41,500
guy who's like has closed like 
made an AFM just like you know, 

1523
01:24:41,500 --> 01:24:43,600
for the hell of it because like 
we can and it's on there. 

1524
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:48,400
But we're exactly interested in 
getting people doing these much,

1525
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:54,400
more social type game type 
applications, seeing how those 

1526
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:57,100
actually integrate integrate 
with crypto in like a mature 

1527
01:24:57,100 --> 01:25:00,100
environment. 
And then once there's demand for

1528
01:25:00,100 --> 01:25:03,900
it, doing the liquidity type 
stuff, Because I think it's yeah

1529
01:25:03,900 --> 01:25:08,100
it's on our it's a thing we want
to be doing eventually but it's 

1530
01:25:08,100 --> 01:25:10,200
not the new interesting thing in
crypto. 

1531
01:25:10,700 --> 01:25:15,500
The other way of saying that is 
that everyone in crypto sort of 

1532
01:25:15,500 --> 01:25:18,000
knows that just doing unique 
swap. 

1533
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,700
Clones is kind of a dead end and
not very interesting. 

1534
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:26,800
And we're trying to create, you 
know, this new, this new meta 

1535
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:29,800
like this like just much much 
richer set of things that you 

1536
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,000
can do. 
We don't even know fully what 

1537
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,400
that looks like, but we have. 
It's also not just a blank 

1538
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:39,700
slate. 
So we're like okay, I wish we 

1539
01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:43,200
had chat so that we can do these
things and see where it goes. 

1540
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,400
Then once we had chat, we're 
like, oh, now we actually can do

1541
01:25:46,700 --> 01:25:51,700
basically groups Dows discords, 
like things like, much more like

1542
01:25:51,700 --> 01:25:55,900
that with crypto and then I 
think we'll see what the, you 

1543
01:25:55,900 --> 01:25:57,800
know, what the next thing is 
after, but there's a some other 

1544
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:01,600
projects that were working with 
that will, you know? 

1545
01:26:01,700 --> 01:26:04,700
You add those, I think on one 
that we were interested in was 

1546
01:26:04,700 --> 01:26:06,800
like what portal was doing, 
which is trying to make like a 

1547
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:10,500
discoverability thing for 
everything in all the content in

1548
01:26:10,500 --> 01:26:13,700
orbit and that has a lot of 
obvious crypto Integrations. 

1549
01:26:13,900 --> 01:26:18,600
And so I think like, in terms of
incentivizing people to do stuff

1550
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:22,100
for it, you know, limit, you 
know, limiting things in various

1551
01:26:22,100 --> 01:26:24,400
ways. 
Let me people collect assets and

1552
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,100
so I'm interested to see how 
that goes. 

1553
01:26:26,100 --> 01:26:31,300
But just in general, like I 
guess the idea of Making those 

1554
01:26:31,300 --> 01:26:34,600
applications, but then letting 
people extend them easily is 

1555
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:38,700
something we haven't seen a lot 
since the, I don't know. 

1556
01:26:38,700 --> 01:26:44,700
Probably since the late 2000 
like Facebook like Twitter, open

1557
01:26:44,700 --> 01:26:47,100
API apis phase. 
When people could just sort of 

1558
01:26:47,100 --> 01:26:50,100
build whatever applications they
want integrated into those. 

1559
01:26:50,100 --> 01:26:53,200
And we want to bring that back 
to some like, to some degree. 

1560
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:57,400
Cool, fantastic. 
Maybe like final question. 

1561
01:26:57,700 --> 01:27:02,700
What's the, what did what did 
the timeline is look like where 

1562
01:27:02,700 --> 01:27:04,900
you at right now. 
What are the main Milestones 

1563
01:27:04,900 --> 01:27:10,600
coming up right now? 
We are in the process of 

1564
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:13,900
finishing, our main engine, 
integrating it with ZK, at least

1565
01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:17,800
for optimistic, ZK and doing the
basic version of the roll-up. 

1566
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:20,200
We have a very basic version on 
test net, but even need to add 

1567
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:24,600
stuff like withdrawals. 
We also we Talked about little 

1568
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:26,700
bit about which we call 
ziggurat, which was basically 

1569
01:27:26,700 --> 01:27:30,000
the thing that's going to let 
you pull together. 

1570
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:33,000
All of, you know, developing for
lots of, er, bit nodes at once 

1571
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,600
checking that against the ubar 
chain, doing all of that, that 

1572
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:41,000
will be out in users hands 
probably later this month or in 

1573
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:44,200
May and then we'll start 
iterating it fast based on that.

1574
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:46,300
We would like to then go to main
net. 

1575
01:27:46,300 --> 01:27:49,800
Probably in June or July where 
you're sort of doing stuff for 

1576
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,100
real money but deposit limited 
and start doing, you know, 

1577
01:27:53,100 --> 01:27:55,000
audits of our code. 
And then having people get 

1578
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:57,500
familiar Auditors, get familiar 
with our Hoon engine. 

1579
01:27:57,500 --> 01:27:59,700
Also the on shame, the on chain 
portion. 

1580
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:03,000
And as the summer, you know, as 
the summer goes, will be doing 

1581
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:07,200
more experiments with AI to like
in a balloon programming. 

1582
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:12,700
But and in terms of having like 
the actual chain launched would 

1583
01:28:12,700 --> 01:28:16,900
like sort of full tools and 
everything working that'll be 

1584
01:28:16,900 --> 01:28:20,800
like probably the alpha beta 
version over the summer. 

1585
01:28:21,100 --> 01:28:23,900
And then as the year goes on and
we do audits. 

1586
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,900
It will get closer to doing 
stuff like potentially lifting, 

1587
01:28:28,700 --> 01:28:31,600
any caps on the amount of 
deposits. 

1588
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:34,700
Really, going after developers 
very hard, things like that. 

1589
01:28:34,700 --> 01:28:39,400
So I would look for some action 
If you're sort of really into. 

1590
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,000
If you're into urban development
already, or want to get into it,

1591
01:28:42,300 --> 01:28:46,600
this spring like around May and 
then the real, you know, 

1592
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,500
hardcore lots of apps are coming
out and we're moving closer and 

1593
01:28:50,500 --> 01:28:53,900
closer to you know, no training 
wheels over the summer and fall.

1594
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,600
All. 
Cool. 

1595
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,000
That's exciting. 
Yeah, I mean I think a lot of 

1596
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,200
things going. 
Yeah, a lot of things going on 

1597
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:03,600
in irbid, lot of things going on
in Oak, Park things, moving 

1598
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:06,100
fast. 
So I think it's going to be 

1599
01:29:06,700 --> 01:29:09,700
pretty mind-blowing. 
I think this sort of experience,

1600
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:12,500
the user experience is people 
are going to be able to like 

1601
01:29:12,500 --> 01:29:16,600
enjoy in this world. 
You know, in sort of, I think, 

1602
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:19,100
you know, next year, maybe 
towards the end of this year, 

1603
01:29:19,100 --> 01:29:21,400
some things but I think 
definitely next year it's going 

1604
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:23,900
to be something. 
We're having a lot of 50 people 

1605
01:29:23,900 --> 01:29:27,300
will go and be like that's 
That's what I expected. 

1606
01:29:27,300 --> 01:29:29,700
It should work like and that's, 
that's what I've been kind of 

1607
01:29:29,700 --> 01:29:34,000
waiting. 
For one thing we say internally 

1608
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:40,600
that's it's very much like a bar
can make ico's great again in 

1609
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:43,200
the sense of like when people 
were saying all these things 

1610
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:47,300
over, you know, 2016-2017 it was
based on this idea that we have 

1611
01:29:47,300 --> 01:29:50,400
this Global consensus engine. 
We can do all these crazy things

1612
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:52,900
with it and for a variety of 
reasons, obviously, there were 

1613
01:29:52,900 --> 01:29:55,300
like, you know, the issues with,
you know, scams and things like 

1614
01:29:55,300 --> 01:29:56,300
that. 
But also, So there were like 

1615
01:29:56,300 --> 01:29:58,200
people who are trying to do 
ambitious things and they were 

1616
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:02,300
just too hard then and I think 
they're now finally in reach and

1617
01:30:02,300 --> 01:30:05,600
so you know ideally we could 
make another Ico, boom happen 

1618
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:08,600
and everyone will be happy with 
us, don't like that. 

1619
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,900
This kind of this kind of the 
vibe Perfect. 

1620
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:13,400
Cool. 
Well, thanks so much for joining

1621
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,700
us Tim lock. 
It was really great to have you 

1622
01:30:15,700 --> 01:30:17,300
on. 
It was great to talk about bar, 

1623
01:30:17,300 --> 01:30:20,000
super excited about the project 
and where it's going to go. 

1624
01:30:20,500 --> 01:30:24,800
Yeah, thanks for having me guys.
Really fun, great questions and 

1625
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:26,200
thanks for listening for tuning 
in. 

1626
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:28,900
If you're going to be back next 
week and have a great week. 

1627
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,000
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1628
01:30:33,300 --> 01:30:34,900
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1629
01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:38,200
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1630
01:30:38,300 --> 01:30:41,400
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1631
01:30:41,700 --> 01:30:44,500
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1632
01:30:44,500 --> 01:30:47,500
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast, go to 

1633
01:30:47,500 --> 01:30:50,600
epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for
a full list of places where you 

1634
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:53,200
can watch and listen, while 
you're there, be sure to sign up

1635
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:55,300
for the newsletter. 
You get new episodes in your 

1636
01:30:55,300 --> 01:30:58,500
inbox as they're released. 
If you want to interact with us 

1637
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:01,200
guests or other podcast 
listeners, you can follow us on 

1638
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:04,100
Twitter and please leave us a 
review on iTunes helps people 

1639
01:31:04,100 --> 01:31:07,200
find the show and we're always 
happy to read them but thanks so

1640
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:09,500
much and we look forward to 
being back next week.