1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,920 When you look at the theorem, it's a bit more like the network 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,880 effects connectivity at the base layer for computation, which 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,600 starts to remind like that's a bit like you would say what 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:10,880 would be deficient for the Internet. 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,080 That's why you also have to talk about this one one tier vision 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,200 and just say it. So clearly protocol maintenance 7 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,280 is the material foundation role and it should be scalar one by 8 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,000 scale blobs. Now we improve the interop and 9 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,120 UX just to show that network effect on the journey. 10 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Builders that they want to build something, they should choose 11 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,280 experience because it is the most securely, most robust. 12 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,200 Should be the default for them. Want to improve the UX in order 13 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,720 to don't even need to be a way of blockchain exist in the app. 14 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,480 So I think it takes some time to improve our wireless systems and 15 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,240 it takes some time to provide a very good pipeline for the app 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,640 layer to improve the UX. But I think this world won't be 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,680 too far away. We increase the L1 block space 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,000 and still the the fees are lost. So why would you do that? 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,200 Clearly this is a commitment to the future, so everyone can be 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,239 very confident that L1 will scale. 21 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,280 So we can build on L1, we can build more L twos, that we are 22 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,320 very safe building an L2 that we plan to scale 8 * 16 times per 23 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:18,200 times over the years. And an L1 will always be there 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,880 and will be the best platform to launch L2. 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,920 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 26 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,520 technologies, projects and people driving decentralisation 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,680 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Federica Anst and today I'm 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:34,080 speaking with Thomas Stanchak and Xiao Wei Wang, who are both 29 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,520 the new Co executive directors at the Ethereum Foundation. 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,560 So Thomas previously founded a company named Nethermind that 31 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,600 builds infrastructure in the Etherium space, including a very 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,480 well respected client. And Xiao Wei has been a 33 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,360 researcher with the Ethereum Foundation for, for ages 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,760 actually. And you both have come in kind 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,040 of after a period of unrest from the Ethereum community earlier 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,520 this year. So kind of I'm super interested 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,800 to kind of hear your visions for, for how the Ethereum 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,160 Foundation will evolve over the next coming years. 39 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,720 But before we dive into that, let me tell you about our 40 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,480 sponsors this week. 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Thank you so much for coming on. 70 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,800 Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for the 71 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,960 invitation pleasure. The honour is mine. 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:15,200 So maybe before we kind of dive into Ethereum foundation stuff, 73 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,720 tell us about kind of like how you guys got here respectively. 74 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,280 So kind of like what, what, what brought you kind of like to the 75 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,360 chair you're sitting on on this present day? 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,600 Yeah, sure. So for for me, it was almost 77 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,520 eight years journey 2017 when when Nethermind when I started 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Nethermind before that, actually I I joined like the atrium space 79 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,360 of like reading and learning in 2015 sixteen. 80 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,880 So I was observing some of the big events at that time. 81 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,960 And the first three years at at Nethermind, it was me mostly 82 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,440 building with with a small group of people. 83 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,120 Let's Nethermind implementation of Ethereum client. 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,000 Fast forward few years, I went through, you know, Defy summer 85 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,480 of the various events after the long crypto winter. 86 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,480 I collaborated with Flashbots and MEV Solutions Research since 87 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,480 around 2021, like more or less the beginning of Flashbots and 88 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,200 also worked with Start Net Foundation, built a twin stack 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,760 Institutional Stake, Inc, worked on the Euler Defy project and 90 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,440 and collaborated with Fortas. So various projects always more 91 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,880 or less related to, to our work at Nethermind. 92 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,640 And for Nethermind, I got the start conversation with Ethereum 93 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Foundation. I started this year in in March, 94 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,360 I joined, shall we? And yeah, now, now we're here. 95 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,160 Cool. What about you? 96 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,320 Shall we? Yeah, I joined the Sun 97 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:59,440 Foundation in 2017. Before that, I mean, my 98 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:04,680 background is computer science. And then I joined the the EFI 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,560 was working on the sharding POC, the sharding purpose concept 100 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,480 that was very, very aged design. And yeah. 101 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,280 So the, the time I joined the the research team that was the 102 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:21,640 small team and we started, we were working on the consensus 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,800 protocol mostly. And then during the time like 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,120 the the EF, the researching has changed a lot. 105 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:37,520 I mean by years, our focus keep expanding to multiple different 106 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:42,760 domains and you have also changed a lot during the past 107 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,320 seven years. And then I was a consensus R&D 108 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,400 colleague with Danny Ryan for multiple years. 109 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,600 And then last year I was, I shoot my Rd. from researcher to 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,480 leadership at Eastern Foundation. 111 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,000 And then yeah, this year, I mean, recently, one month ago, I 112 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,040 honoured to be the constitutive director with Tamash. 113 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,360 How did this kind of shape up kind of like where you 114 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,400 approached by Vitilik or kind of Aya to kind of see whether you'd 115 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,160 be up for this or kind of like, I mean, there was no open 116 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,760 application, right? So kind of like how, how, how 117 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,560 did you guys become Co executive directors? 118 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,960 Yeah, I guess for share away it was maybe a simpler story which 119 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:35,640 was already in. So on my side, I, I took to IA 120 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:41,960 for the first time I think last last year in September in 121 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,960 Singapore around token 2049. But then we discussed in general 122 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:51,760 the challenges ahead of EF, the the leadership situation after, 123 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:57,880 after Denny's departure and we discussed talent management very 124 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 various topics. So it's a longer conversation, 125 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,440 but we didn't discuss at all like me joining EF and I, I 126 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,800 didn't think of it. I was, I was obviously super 127 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,680 busy with and the MITE and various other projects. 128 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:15,960 And then as I was observing the situations online around the, 129 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:22,160 the leadership challenges, still I, I didn't think of me joining 130 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,760 EF, but I was just thinking of like, who'll be there, how it 131 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,600 will affect the future of, of various ecosystem players. 132 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,600 Never mind how, never mind will position itself in all of this. 133 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,600 But I had already at the time, like various discussions running 134 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,799 with, with Aya Vitalik. Some of them are on search, some 135 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:42,520 of them are on some enterprise solutions. 136 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,680 And I reach out asking some questions. 137 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:48,360 And then when I asked if if we could have a conversation about 138 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:53,240 the leadership topic again and the few meetings, interviews, 139 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,880 discussions, meeting with the management team, meeting with 140 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,840 Xiao Wei, when when we spend a few days together to to 141 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,160 understand how we can collaborate, meeting with the 142 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,000 rest of the management team. Bastian, Josh, Julian. 143 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,760 So all of that and then gradually we agreed that. 144 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,720 So there was lots of discussions about how to deal with the 145 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,760 situation with like nevermind conflicts of interest, how I 146 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,680 will collaborate with foundation, lots of discussions. 147 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:28,480 Then joining the the Eternal Foundation offsite to, to get 148 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,840 that soft introduction to the entire team and see what is the 149 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,040 reception, whether people feel comfortable with that and in the 150 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,720 context of all the challenges of this joint leadership and, and 151 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,200 my position and I think that we were pretty comfortable with 152 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,800 announcing it. So that's the story. 153 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:51,200 And for you, Xia Wei, it was more, it was more of a natural 154 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,920 transition, right? More natural about this was also 155 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,480 not that long term planned like I can openly to say it is like 156 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720 but IA did have so IA is now the president of the foundation 157 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,200 boat. Yeah, she has this idea of like 158 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,720 to have some transition more than one year ago. 159 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,000 So but during just the EF internal we have so many things 160 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:24,360 to do. So she didn't ever she couldn't 161 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,000 make it took it happened earlier. 162 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:33,040 But last year we have several conversation around like what EF 163 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,600 could be like. And then this conversation help 164 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:44,400 us to think more about like, OK, so in 2025 we want to some 165 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,960 internal change and then what's the how it can impact the 166 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,320 ecosystem better. And then so such discussion 167 00:10:53,520 --> 00:11:01,160 triggered the to form a new leadership system in decent 168 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,000 foundation. So, yeah, I think the story is 169 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:12,800 like described and then our combination is like there were 170 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:20,040 before this, there were some choices at the leadership has 171 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,000 been thinking about. But after all, I also 172 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,400 participate in some discussion, but it's not my decision there. 173 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,360 But after all, I do believe that this combination is the best for 174 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,600 everyone and at the end also like for the ecosystem. 175 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,200 Cool. You guys are coming, coming in 176 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120 at a somewhat difficult moment, right. 177 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:52,640 So kind of, I think it's kind of it's well known that the theorem 178 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,480 that Ethereum has got an amazing, an amazing technical 179 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,720 community, right. So I think there's no other 180 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,560 network that is as resilient in terms of client development and 181 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:07,560 kind of priority and kind of network decentralisation and and 182 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:09,480 so on. So kind of like, I mean too much 183 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,080 you, you know, this kind of like as a client developer, kind of 184 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,160 there's no kind of like any kind of piece of code that goes in a 185 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,520 client is kind of like is scrutinised by probably 20 very 186 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,760 capable people and kind of this, this cannot be set for our 187 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,440 networks, right? So kind of like this is kind of 188 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,080 like this level of scrutiny for kind of like open source 189 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:35,320 software is, is really rare. So Ethereum really has that 190 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,000 going for it. But kind of if you look at how 191 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,160 the general blockchain ecosystem has evolved over the past years, 192 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,720 kind of other chains have outpaced Ethereum in terms of 193 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,720 throughput and usage and kind of they can do things at a lower 194 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,320 cost per transaction. And so I think kind of a lot of 195 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,280 the unrest that was kind of like in the community was from this 196 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,480 perceived lack of vision. I think there were kind of like 197 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:07,160 some very, I mean, there's always kind of like this very 198 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,880 loud kind of ethiomous money kind of crew that I don't, I 199 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,160 don't think kind of kind of who are who are clamouring for more 200 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,600 marketing and so on. I don't think that's actually 201 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:17,920 the thing. So kind of, I think kind of 202 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:25,920 like, but but a clear vision as to how to how to shape up 203 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,040 Etherium over the coming years. This is something that was 204 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,200 clearly lacking. And in, in part, this is also 205 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,840 owed to kind of like how the Etherium Foundation kind of saw 206 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,000 itself, right? It's kind of sees itself as a 207 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,520 steward, kind of as an enabler, but not as a commander. 208 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,800 So kind of like other ecosystem foundations don't see themselves 209 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,840 that way. They kind of say this is the, I 210 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,720 don't know, Solana road map now implemented. 211 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,320 So while in a very broad sense kind of Etherium remains 212 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,680 technically unmatched usage kind of tells a somewhat mixed more 213 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:02,960 mixed story. So I would kind of like to use 214 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,480 this hour to kind of talk with you guys about kind of like how 215 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,520 we kind of reconcile that and kind of like how you guys are 216 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,200 are seeing that in terms of, you know, future for the Ethereum 217 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,680 Foundation and Ethereum as a large kind of yeah. 218 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,440 So maybe let's start off with kind of the role of the Ethereum 219 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,800 Foundation. So kind of the Ethereum 220 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,320 Foundation kind of it sees itself serve as an enabler, not 221 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,680 a commander, but it is also the main funder for research, right. 222 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,240 So kind of like how how do you see the Theorem Foundation's 223 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,680 role evolving? You say that we are the main 224 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,080 funding source for research and even within the Ethereum 225 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,520 ecosystem, I think that's much more complex situation like 226 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,720 positively much more complex. They, there are fantastic 227 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,480 researchers at the Etera Foundation and it's definitely, 228 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,720 there's lots of, lots of funding delegated to, to that research 229 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,960 that is within the EF and through various academic grants 230 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,680 and collaborations with other players in the ecosystem. 231 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,080 But then you look around and there are fantastic researchers 232 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,080 at multiple teams all around. So there are researchers at the 233 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,280 L2 teams, fantastic level of ZK research that is interim 234 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,760 ecosystem MEV research that leaves all the other ecosystems 235 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,920 behind. If you think about the quality 236 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,640 of of execution, the quality of market mechanisms that we have 237 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,200 on Etherium, then you have the researchers on engineering 238 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,080 scaling everywhere in all the different client teams and the 239 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,800 funding sources for those are really diverse. 240 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,840 So you have fantastic VC capital coming to Ethereum and still 241 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,680 favouring Ethereum as as the best of the chains and the best 242 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,200 of the ecosystems. This is this also grants from 243 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,840 various foundations that are independent of Ethereum 244 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,040 foundation. I think that we we see some Taos 245 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,640 places like Nosy's that have a lot of lot of support for much 246 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,680 of the interim values that are like the same aligned within 247 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,040 between all those different organizations because we believe 248 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,840 in Indus values of privacy, security, open source censorship 249 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,480 resistance chain to bring it to to users around the world. 250 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:30,640 So now if we think that we that we deliver that message of the 251 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,280 direction of a strategy of scaling A1, scaling blobs, 252 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:39,600 improving QX and interop, it's it's still not something that is 253 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,680 that is imposed on the ecosystem by foundation that we've just 254 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,320 invented it internally and said to people, this is what we're 255 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,480 doing now as a result of the hundreds of conversation with 256 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,160 the ecosystem of this thing for the social media channels, 257 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,400 through forums, through Telegram channels, groups, conversations 258 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,600 at the events, listening to to everyone and understanding those 259 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,160 voices in depth. Why? 260 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,119 Why this request? Why this challenges? 261 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,440 Why the crisis? If there is crisis, what are the 262 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,200 opportunities? And then just extracting the 263 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,079 essence of all of these and communicating it clearly. 264 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,560 So, so becoming this coordinator, communicator, the 265 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,680 voice that many people are looking, looking at to, to 266 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,599 listen where we go together. So, so it's still the steward 267 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:31,240 role and an enabler role, but it's still the ecosystem that is 268 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,680 very decentralized and still very aligned, unified in the 269 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,760 vision and values. That's that's connect us. 270 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,840 I think the E FS role is resilient to the conditions in 271 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,120 the ecosystem and it's dynamic changes over time. 272 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,360 So like we are, we do have research, a strong research 273 00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:00,040 team. We do have some focus team 274 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,320 features in the the EF like technical team. 275 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,040 This is the this thing should be talking on the the most 276 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:14,040 important topic that no one else is working on right now. 277 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,440 And I think that you have that would never stop like to empower 278 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,360 other people to do more, but just for efficiency and then for 279 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,520 what make the best impact in kind and the EF would focus on 280 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,960 multiple things. And also I feel like the EFS 281 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:43,200 our, I mean, I mean Tomas and I in our turn, like we will like 282 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:50,360 the EF to be more opinionated to some basic topics like EF's is, 283 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,640 is neutral credible to as a coordinator to help steward 284 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,920 ecosystem. But like the, the things we 285 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,040 wanted to value the OR like the the technical strategy, the 286 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,960 strategies like we want to, we want to target sooner and that 287 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:14,280 seems we're we're not getting slowed by optics too much in 288 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:19,120 this in the next few years. Yeah, I mean you, you both make 289 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,440 extremely valid points. And that kind of like the 290 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,960 theorem of community is so strong also in part because 291 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,960 they're they're the theorem foundation never played this 292 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,640 kind of dictator like role in saying, look, this is the road 293 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,000 map now follow it. But I think kind of like having 294 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:45,680 some sort of North Star vision to kind of focus the efforts 295 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,480 from the community. This is really important because 296 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,360 otherwise kind of like it's, it's too scattered and it 297 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:53,520 doesn't, it doesn't really come together. 298 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,760 So I, I, I totally understand that it's, it's a difficult line 299 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:03,360 to tow kind of how to, how to focus these. 300 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,680 Smart and independent teams into kind of a coherent vision, but 301 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,400 without kind of like letting them run off kind of like 302 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,000 completely in, in everyone's direction, right? 303 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,800 Kind of like so yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm 100% with you on that. 304 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,200 And I think it's, it's, it's very also important to kind of 305 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,000 be extremely mindful of the ecosystem we have, right? 306 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:36,160 So with kind of like 2 executive directors in place, how will you 307 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,560 guys kind of divvy it up? Will you just talk everything, 308 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,440 everything out? Or kind of will you kind of say 309 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,440 this is, this is your domain and this is my domain? 310 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,760 Or how? How will this work going 311 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,920 forward? Yeah, I think it's very regular. 312 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,880 But at the same time it's it's regular in the sense that we we 313 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,680 have conversations all the time, but without some predetermined 314 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,200 time. So I think it's casual 315 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,800 conversation, collaboration on multiple topics, very natural 316 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,840 splitting of responsibilities because I think both of us are 317 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,400 just willing to pick up whatever is needed to be addressed. 318 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,760 So I think it's like we are able to rely on each other. 319 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,640 Just been conversations and collaboration that was very, 320 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,560 very fruitful so far. My father, any problems? 321 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,800 And yeah, sometimes it's just two or three hours conversations 322 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,000 on on various topics, internal or external and strategy and 323 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,400 vision. Sometimes I'm a bit chaotic with 324 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,480 talking about the vision internally and the show. 325 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,480 I just like converse into some super distilled and clear 326 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,920 communication sometimes to split some some of the policies and 327 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,680 procedures. Joey has fantastic understanding 328 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,840 of the of the internal organization of the foundation. 329 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:01,760 It's we're both super aligned to like things related to to badges 330 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,880 to, to structure of the organization. 331 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,640 I take advantage of the fact that I'm travelling all the time 332 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,480 and talking to a lot of people. So big aspect of communicating 333 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,200 through the meetings, reaching out to to community ecosystem 334 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,280 partners, traditional finance institutions. 335 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,880 This is definitely very often my role, but I think in Asia she is 336 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,480 much more active. She probably you'll have much to 337 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,640 add here. Yeah, I think there's too much 338 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:35,920 described that I and this mutual transparent communication is 339 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,840 important. I think we, we're happy to 340 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:45,200 involve each other to the different couple of sessions to 341 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,000 with other people's and then at the same time like we usually 342 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,720 would say, OK, this topic, OK, we're both involved. 343 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:59,600 But when there's some timing decision needs to be made, maybe 344 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,000 one of us, you do it or I do it. And that's the, it's usually 345 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:10,560 very simply, then we will divide the duty and then, yeah, the 346 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,840 whole process, the whole collaboration is like a divide 347 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,200 and conquer. Like I recently working on some 348 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,160 like treasuries management stuff and then too much working on 349 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:28,040 some like hiring, like the hiring team establishment, 350 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,040 things like that. So they will have different 351 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:38,320 domains, but it's like also for the yeah, for the most important 352 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,240 topics, we will make decisions together. 353 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:47,080 I think this divide, this division would happen naturally. 354 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,400 Yeah. I, I, it sounds like it's, it's 355 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,040 a very symbiotic kind of relationship where kind of you, 356 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,040 you talk a lot of things out and then kind of assign 357 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,000 responsibilities kind of ad hoc or kind of like in a more 358 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,480 structured way. Fantastic. 359 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,320 So kind of we've talked about kind of like how you guys kind 360 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,080 of work together. Maybe let's talk about kind of 361 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,920 this notion of narrative leadership. 362 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,400 So kind of like there have been kind of a number of a number of 363 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,160 different ideas of what Ethereum is and what Ethereum should be 364 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,800 kind of like ranging from kind of like the word computer to 365 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,880 kind of money essentially. How have you guys aligned on 366 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,680 kind of like which of these visions to support and to kind 367 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,840 of build towards? Yeah, I think the Etherium has 368 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,000 this aspect of plurality of vision. 369 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,720 So we like when you when you look at the ISM Vitalics 370 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,240 documented, it really draws the vision for Etherium and the 371 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,200 values. It really reminds the values of 372 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,440 Etherium. And we keep reminding them 373 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,760 that's all about privacy, security, open source access, 374 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,240 censorship resistance on the chain and the protocol. 375 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,040 So they within the plurality of visions. 376 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,640 I, I think that many people proposed over many years like 377 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,040 directions, which were either specific of what they were 378 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,120 building or specific of the times of various challenges in 379 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,280 the eternal space, right. So we were talking about word 380 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,160 computer and I think this was computer with with AI is still 381 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,480 something that very much resonates with with what we're 382 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,640 building. There were discussions about 383 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,720 ultrasound that the global settlement and I think for when 384 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,040 we talk about defy and L twos and enterprise, that's global 385 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,440 settlement layer really has the great meaning and and remains 386 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,760 very important for friterium. And then you had also the 387 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,480 visions of really like pure ultra decentralization and many 388 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,800 people who fight for for privacy decentralization for like 389 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,840 maximal censorship resistance are are very important for the 390 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,480 vision of etherium. All of that matters. 391 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,200 And I think some other aspects of it are very often realized by 392 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760 many L twos. And I feel that for a particular 393 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,480 North stars that are slightly, slightly more narrow scope this 394 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,160 for L twos define their North stars and compete for many of 395 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,720 the many of the misery, many of the L ones. 396 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,080 So you can look at many alternative L ones to Ethereum 397 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,800 really for us are competing with with the leading top L twos that 398 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,520 are now as scaling, distributing Ethereum values and and reusing 399 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,640 what L1 provides as a as a platform as a as a base for 400 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,560 them. No for for ATM. 401 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,520 I myself see this like both computer with AI, but general 402 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,640 like open autonomous solution for the entire world economy. 403 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,880 This is very broad and I think that it's really showing like 404 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,360 how how grandiose, how big scale of the intern vision is. 405 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,920 And but when we when we talk about the vision, that's that 406 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,000 Broads, it's a bit harder to tell people like how do you act 407 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,280 within? It's like they have to find 408 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,160 their own path. And maybe for very customizable 409 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,560 special L twos, this is a bit easier. 410 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,160 So they can they can go there and see, OK, this is the aspect 411 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,520 of that world economy, world autonomous computer that I want 412 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,000 to build. When you look at Ethereum, it's 413 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,760 a bit more like the network effects connectivity and the 414 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,800 base layer for computation for for access to, to data and 415 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,160 computation and coordination and the Ledger, everything together, 416 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,160 which which starts to remind like that's a bit like you would 417 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,840 say, what would be the vision for the Internet? 418 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,080 Yes, it was connecting people, but it, but then it would say, 419 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,000 oh, is it just about connecting people or connecting systems or 420 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,400 connecting machines? Or is it about the network is 421 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,840 about the financial system? And I think with Ethereum, it's 422 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,440 also very much visible. It's, it's a coordination, it's 423 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,720 finance and and then particular challenges appear. 424 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,320 But that's why we also have to talk about this one, one to your 425 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,160 vision and state. So clearly now we think about 426 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,000 protocol, protocol maintenance is the ETL foundation role. 427 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,200 And it's we scale A1, we scale blobs and we improve the interop 428 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,640 and 2X just to show that network effect on the journey. 429 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,960 So, but kind of like if if I kind of distill this into kind 430 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:37,520 of like one kind of punchy byline kind of it it, it would 431 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:44,640 be kind of utility over number go up. 432 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,320 Is is that fair? Is the impact and winning for 433 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,360 sure. I mean, like when we talk about 434 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,480 the values, we know that the values would would not have that 435 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,400 impact without really winning and showing that you can get 436 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,320 adoption, you can onboard users, you can connect systems, you can 437 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,880 get network effects. Is it utility and a sense of 438 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,520 like benefits for, for the users globally impacting everyone's 439 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,480 lives in a positive way and in a way that they themselves define 440 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,360 for themselves what positive means, right? 441 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,760 Like so not, not someone defining top down of of what's 442 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,840 really is good or bad for other people. 443 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,600 So so when you start talking too much about utility, then maybe 444 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:35,800 you lose that neutrality of the protocol And by by just 445 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,160 essentially we have to think about Ethereum as being 446 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,040 everywhere and contacting everything, connecting 447 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,160 everything. So it can be neutral because if 448 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,040 you, if you exclude some aspects of the economy, some aspects of 449 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,480 automation, aspects of that work computer, then you're no longer 450 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,720 neutral because like what, how did you end up with that 451 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,920 decision of what is excluded? Like why did you, why didn't you 452 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,560 connect everything? And, and yeah, in this in this 453 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,320 sense, that utility arrives with everyone who builds on top of 454 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,880 Etherium and scaling Etherium, make sure that that utility can 455 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,560 be immediately accessible, available, and that people want 456 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,960 to build more on Etherium. Yeah, I, I hear that kind of, 457 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,280 you're already alluding to kind of the different attitudes that 458 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,440 kind of live on, on top of Ethereum. 459 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,000 Maybe maybe let's talk about this for a while because I think 460 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,240 this is one of the it's one of the really difficult problems 461 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,440 for Ethereum right now. So kind of there's this number 462 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,920 of ecosystems that kind of live on top of Ethereum that are 463 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:49,040 often usually pretty insular, that are not well connected to 464 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,560 each other or to Ethereum in fact. 465 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,440 And in some sense they could even be kind of described as 466 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,400 somewhat parasitic because kind of like they, they kind of take 467 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,400 transaction volume away from Ethereum. 468 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,000 And often they don't actually kind of, they kind of proclaim 469 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,720 the theorem values, but often they don't really see them 470 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,600 through, right. So kind of if you're, if you're, 471 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,040 if you're in a situation where essentially you have a 472 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,880 centralized sequencer, you have exactly one party building 473 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,520 blocks, right? This is very, this is very much 474 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,320 against the spirit of kind of like openness and, and, and 475 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,920 resilience and permissionlessness and, and so 476 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,760 on. So how? 477 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:42,160 How do you navigate that? I I think that's when you, when 478 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,400 you say there are situations when you have the roll ups 479 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,160 claiming to be to be roll ups at. 480 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,400 And then the question is, who agrees that this is a roll up? 481 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,040 Like anyone can claim it, right. So well, on one side, you want 482 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,000 to have that permission less aspect. 483 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,400 If anyone can launch A roll up. On the other hand, you have to 484 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,800 provide some guidance of of what it means and which roll ups are 485 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,320 safe. And because you care about the 486 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,760 security aspect of of Ethereum and the branding of security is 487 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,360 important because the user experience means that you feel 488 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,080 comfortable in the ecosystem and you feel that there are some 489 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,240 guarantees of security and guarantees that you understand 490 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,840 it without understanding all the technical details and without 491 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,280 verifying every line of code on every system. 492 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,360 Sure, it's the verification maybe is aspect of of 493 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,160 blockchains in general and the blockchain values, but you also 494 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,920 want to have onboarding your users and make it a good UX. 495 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,520 So, so you have L2 PE as the review of the of the stages of 496 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,840 roll ups, right? So the, the stage zero, stage 1, 497 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,200 stage 2 that define different like progression of not the 498 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,880 security of user that moves assets to this roll ups. 499 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,040 And even if you have centralized sequencer on on L2, then the 500 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,240 questions are if that sequencer fails, if there is a liveness 501 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,400 failure, will the users be able to withdraw assets back to L1? 502 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,880 Like are their assets safe? So that's why we very often will 503 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,360 encourage to to to mint all the assets on L1 and then bridge 504 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:11,800 them to L2. Exactly. 505 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,560 But that's not how it happens today, right? 506 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,640 So kind of like if you look at, say, for instance, the base 507 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880 ecosystem, almost all the assets are kind of like are traded on 508 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,720 base, are actually minted on base. 509 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,520 And kind of like this idea of kind of like withdrawing to L1 510 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,280 this only this only works if kind of like all assets are 511 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,400 natively minted on L1, right? You can't. 512 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,040 You can't withdraw it a native L2 asset back to L1. 513 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,560 Yeah. So I think there'll be much more 514 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,320 guidance on on those aspects. So for for many high value 515 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,960 assets, when when you see the real world assets, the the 516 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,600 stable coins and so on, there, there are multiple approaches. 517 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,240 Actually you can have situation when you really rely on insurer 518 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,440 and say that there are the guarantees of the of like of 519 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,840 your security of assets. What will happen if if there is 520 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,520 some failure? At the same time, I'm absolutely 521 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,080 convinced that any, any large institution that is issuing on 522 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,800 blockchain want to avoid any failures. 523 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,400 Even if they can later have some kind of social consensus or the 524 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,120 corporate or legal, legal way of resolving the situation, they 525 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,679 will not want to to ever observe it with their customers. 526 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,199 Like their customers would be really disappointed if there's 527 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:26,440 any failure that you cannot resolve entirely on chain with 528 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,880 this like transparent on chain way. 529 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,920 So that's why we see a lot of those assets being actually 530 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,960 minted on the one. And this is like the the high 531 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,239 value funds that's that go for Ethereum. 532 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,320 And then they preach the L twos with a with a lot of 533 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,400 restrictions and verification for many of the of the tokens, 534 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:48,480 meme coins, coins. That's like like fun 535 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:49,880 exploration. There. 536 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,320 You have situations when I'm meeting obviously happen on, on 537 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,000 L2, but even then, like when you, when you have larger L2 538 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,880 protocols with, with larger liquidity, I think that's the, 539 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,160 the situation in the future will be very clear that you may have 540 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,280 this risk seeking capital that will keep reaching to L twos, 541 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,320 but we'll be coming back to, to L1 for the time of safety. 542 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,880 And for every single like operator, like the, the, the 543 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,520 capital provider, they'll have some percentage of assets being 544 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,720 in that safe zone settlement. So on of L1, which means that 545 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,520 when you look at globally at the, at the entirety of the 546 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,320 economy, 1 will be the space of the settlements of the largest 547 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,000 like liquidity source that you'll be borrowing to, to more 548 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,560 risky escapades. And L2's also, L2's very often 549 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,400 don't have this like a global or or neutral vision. 550 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,680 So they, they take some, some shortcuts, right? 551 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,440 Like so you suggest that this one like centralization shortcut 552 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,680 like maybe might be alignment with some particular 553 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,480 jurisdictions, right? Some some altars might feel more 554 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,000 American, some of them may feel more Chinese, some of them may 555 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,480 feel more European. Some of them may be targeting 556 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,480 particular particular set of solutions. 557 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,840 Maybe some of them will be customized for gaming. 558 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,960 Maybe some of them will be targeting some demographic in 559 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,200 the way how they how they market their solution. 560 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,640 While Ethereum for all of them provides that layer of of 561 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,920 settlement security and providing a global brand. 562 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:21,040 So once again, when we look at the L2's, we'll be opinionated 563 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,600 in a way. We'll start talking more about 564 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,160 what we expect on the sense of security, what we expect on 565 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,920 branding when you can claim it's Etherium roll up, what we expect 566 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,440 of like contribution to the network effects collaboration on 567 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,400 interoperability, on tooling innovation back to to the 568 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,680 Etherium ecosystem. The way we communicate all about 569 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,920 interpretability between the L twos and L ones, but also how, 570 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,600 how open those L twos are to collaborate with other L twos 571 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:57,800 like so this very, very interpretable friendly ecosystem 572 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,400 that has some very healthy competition and innovation on, 573 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,120 on user acquisition all together. 574 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,760 We'll be on boarding to the ecosystem, users and capital. 575 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,000 So I think definitely success of L twos brings developers, users 576 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:17,480 and capital to L1 and increases significantly the demand for the 577 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,800 block space on L1. At the same time, we also have 578 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,160 to run a bit ahead, deliver that block space that it's seemingly 579 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,640 like because now you have questions. 580 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,840 So we increase the L1 block space and still the the fees are 581 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,480 law. So why would you do that? 582 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,680 Clearly, this is a commitment to the to the future. 583 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,480 So everyone can be very confident that L1 will scale. 584 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,360 So we can build on L1, we can build more L twos that we, that 585 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,920 we are very safe building an L2 that we plan to scale eight, 8 * 586 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,000 16 times per times over the years and an L1 will always be 587 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,080 there and it'll be the best platform to launch L2 so. 588 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,080 There's a lot to unpack there. So kind of like I, I kind of, I 589 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,480 want to talk about kind of like the interplay of different L2's 590 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,800 in just a bit. But kind of before we kind of 591 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,440 dive into that, let's talk about kind of this idea of Ethereum as 592 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,600 kind of a global settlement layer, kind of like how, which 593 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,360 is kind of like what you're alluding to, right? 594 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,520 So kind of like if you look at Ethereum today, Ethereum 595 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,760 processes around a million and a half transactions per day at the 596 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,920 moment, right? So if you look at financial 597 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:34,560 transactions between between, for instance, banks and large 598 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,960 players and so on, which by kind of like your argument should 599 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,200 definitely settle on L1 transactions between different L 600 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:48,040 twos, emission of of stocks and so on. 601 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,480 So I think there's there's on the order of 50,000 listed 602 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,720 stocks worldwide. So kind of like if you want to 603 00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,320 do a settlement at least once per stock per day kind of on L1, 604 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,200 if you want to kind of register all new stocks on L1, then kind 605 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:10,000 of there's, there's other things like for instance, PNS domains, 606 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,640 kind of that kind of like, I mean, there's going to be name 607 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,560 chain and so on. But in principle, kind of like 608 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,040 you should be able to kind of kind of have them on L1 if you 609 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,240 wanted to. So kind of like, so I'm just 610 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:28,200 kind of like, I'm not making myself very clear here, but kind 611 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,640 of like if you look at kind of like the global volume of things 612 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,680 that kind of like should be settled on L1, a million and a 613 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,880 half transactions per day probably won't cut it. 614 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,600 So let's talk about kind of like how to how to scale that up and 615 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:48,120 what the plans are for scaling L1 block space. 616 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,120 Yeah, sure. So we have plan for 3X of the L1 617 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,800 block space this year. So you could target something 618 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,600 around 100 million Gasper block this year. 619 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,520 So this is mostly done for. Coordination between the 620 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,040 execution clients, verification of like where the some 621 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,800 additional optimizations are needed because many of the 622 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,680 clients show clearly that they're ready to go there. 623 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,040 We see L twos actually using the same technology for, for scaling 624 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,560 their layer. And now the question is, are 625 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,600 there some, some additional bottlenecks around the consensus 626 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,480 coordination, the networking decentralization of L1 that 627 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,480 actually show you differences between how L1 operates and L2 628 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,280 operates? So, so far, we feel very 629 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,480 confident about that growth this year. 630 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,720 Then we ask questions about how we go to the next three acts 631 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,160 next year. And that you see like Dunkard 632 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,960 proposed those numbers and but they are, they're not just out 633 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,360 of blue. They are designed based on the 634 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,160 conversations with all the clients and understanding well 635 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,160 what is in the pipeline on the EI PS. 636 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,880 So some of the IPS that will help us that will ship in 637 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:05,000 Glamsterdam will help the clients to support this further 638 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,440 3X scaling. So you have already like 3-3 639 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,520 hundred, 360 million Gasper block next year and 640 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,160 continuation, continuation of that. 641 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,680 And you, you mentioned there's one 1.5 million transactions per 642 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,280 day. So this is very often there's 643 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,640 like a a bit more complex transactions because when you 644 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,920 when you look at the payments like the most basic payments, 645 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,000 this will be like 10 or 20 million transactions and the 646 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,120 current throughput and assume we have 60 million. 647 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:35,560 I expect that maybe like in in May, you have 60 million gas as 648 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,600 a block size, the the Max box size, the coming back to once 649 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,320 again to this 1.5 million transactions and all the equity 650 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,880 and what you have to have there. So we want to support I call the 651 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,880 most valuable identity, most valuable identity for for 652 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,560 people, for agents, for yeah, real world assets like so you 653 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,200 have real estate, you have the obviously like like equities 654 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,400 trading the high value, like adapt equities, FX trading where 655 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,760 you have maybe transactions of hundreds of thousands of dollars 656 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,040 or millions of dollars. So I clearly remember my work as 657 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:16,200 the abstract technology for the FX desk at at Citibank. 658 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,880 And we would look at the time when the non farm payroll was 659 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,560 announced and you would have this like hundreds of thousands 660 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,880 of transactions. And they, you know, the minimum 661 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,400 notional there would be 1,000,000. 662 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,560 Nobody would trade anything below 1,000,000 because this was 663 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,280 the ticket size that you would just accuse. 664 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,400 So whenever you would say 1, you meant 1,000,000 and and those 665 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,360 transactions were flying in within milliseconds. 666 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:43,680 And you want that to, to have always the easy path to L1 and 667 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,680 just transactions nowadays, I think they cost like this data 668 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,440 good to to verify it. But I think like it's between 669 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,080 5:00 and $25 per million of notional that you have. 670 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,520 Depending on the markets, it can be less, it can be more, but 671 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,360 those are the cost in the traditional finance. 672 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,040 And nowadays when you look at the price of transactions on on 673 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,000 interior Mon LA twos, this is like between 1 cent and $1.00. 674 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,640 But it also means that easily those transactions in the 675 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,200 future, they can first of all, because of all the volumes when 676 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,240 they move to two O 1, they can they can feel like any scaling 677 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,200 for 10100 or 1000 X for the next years. 678 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,360 And they will always choose A1 first for security and then for 679 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,200 scaling and for the cost reduction, they'll move all the 680 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600 remaining transactions to L2 for scaling, but they'll be settling 681 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,600 and and keeping the most safe liquidity on on the one. 682 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,600 And now the question is how much of this equity you can move to 683 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,320 the global economy? How secure, how safe they feel. 684 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,280 The more L1 scales, the more also L twos can take off the 685 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,240 oldest transactions that are secondary market of of the daily 686 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,600 trading, right. So some of this movements will 687 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,880 will take advantage of O1 and O1 will be able to really price 688 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,040 those highest, highest value transaction significantly 689 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,560 because they'll be always willingness to pay for, for the 690 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,240 security and safety on the on the O1. 691 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,600 It's just for now, we are in the in the scaling time, in the 692 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,880 growth time in the user on boarding time showing support 693 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,320 for L twos. And the scale is nowhere there 694 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,320 to to support the entire global economy. 695 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,640 But when we go to this like 100 X 1000 X multiplied by all the L 696 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,160 twos successful in tools on Etherium, then you can start 697 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,880 talking about this quadrillion dollars of global economy and 698 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,160 assets to be very safely transferable to to blockchain. 699 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,200 And that's why we work on security as well. 700 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,960 That's a really interesting kind of vision for Ethereum kind of 701 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,400 as this almost kind of like how we kind of talked about rolled 702 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,920 UPS back in the day, right? Kind of like before they kind of 703 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,920 became their own stand alone ecosystems. 704 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,760 Kind of like we thought of them kind of as these liminal spaces 705 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,360 where kind of like transactions would be processed and rolled up 706 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,120 and then kind of ultimately kind of everything would come back to 707 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:12,120 Ethereum. So if if that's kind of the 708 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,440 vision, kind of where kind of the three, three time scaling 709 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,320 and then three time scaling again, where those kind of 710 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,240 suffice, right? Kind of like there's 8 billion 711 00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:25,720 people in the world. So even if you kind of expect 712 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,040 everyone to at least kind of like have an identity somewhere, 713 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,680 I mean, you should probably tell people like for your most 714 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,920 valuable things like do them on L1. 715 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,000 So at least everyone kind of should have an L1 account, 716 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,040 right? So that's 8 billion L 1 accounts 717 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,560 right there. So kind of like and kind of This 718 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,360 is why I kind of like way back in the day and maybe shall wait 719 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,720 kind of maybe this is kind of like a question directed at you. 720 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:55,560 So kind of where where this kind of idea of sharding initially 721 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,040 came in, right? Kind of like and kind of when we 722 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,880 talked about charts back in the day, we kind of we thought about 723 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,280 kind of like we thought, we thought about asynchronously 724 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,160 linked charts with their own execution environments and so 725 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,760 on. So just so kind of 1024 chart 726 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,120 shards of kind of like kind of and and scaling A theorem by a 727 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,120 factor of 1000. Obviously that would help a lot 728 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,440 more than kind of scaling by a factor of 3 and then scaling by 729 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,080 a factor of 3 again. So kind of like and and I mean 730 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,840 obviously this also generalizes. So kind of like you could yeah. 731 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:34,960 So any ideas to kind of bring that old concept of sharding 732 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,640 with kind of like stand alone execution environments back? 733 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:47,600 Short time plan we don't is no more stay alone execution engine 734 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,680 to be added for now. But I think you can see the the 735 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,400 recent the ZKEVI or like this five discussion like we don't 736 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,480 you never stop to think about what is the better exclusion 737 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,840 engine. And then this is will be a long 738 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:09,560 term plan to for the researchers and developer to investigate 739 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:15,360 more before we have them enough covenant to switch the exclusion 740 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,280 engine this time. OK. 741 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,280 But it's it's kind of like it's just something that kind of the 742 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,840 Ethereum Foundation kind of thinks about. 743 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,880 Yeah, we have many people is working on this topic and 744 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:34,640 there's also many external, you know Rix 5 the KV and teams are 745 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,240 actually prototyping this and the product this. 746 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:46,720 But I this is, I would say this is part of our focused in the 747 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:51,320 next 5 year plan, maybe not what we will deliver in two years, 748 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,960 but yeah, it is in our research role map. 749 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,920 Fantastic cool that's that's super good to hear Then maybe 750 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,480 let's move on to kind of like the current L2 landscape. 751 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,880 So kind of like too much you already talked about how L2 is 752 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,640 and kind of like what caused itself and L2 is very divergent. 753 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,040 So kind of I, I also love L2 beat, but I also think it's 754 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,280 somewhat sad that we actually need it, right? 755 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:20,600 So kind of if you, so if you look at some, I mean, I mean 756 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:26,360 clearly kind of like what level of security you want and need 757 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,960 heavily depends on your use case, right? 758 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,640 So kind of like as you said, kind of like if you're settling, 759 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,720 if you're settling debt with kind of like an A minimum order 760 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:42,000 size of a million, then kind of like paying 5 or $10 in gas fees 761 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,720 is is not an issue at all. So kind of and you should be 762 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,000 willing to do that, right? If you're trading in game 763 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,240 assets, that same level of security is probably not need. 764 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,040 I mean, not a gamer, so I I won't judge here, but kind of 765 00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,240 like, yeah, so and kind of being very transparent about kind of 766 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:03,440 like what level of security URL 2 offers. 767 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:07,760 Probably not so much to users, but kind of to developers who 768 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:14,360 kind of develop on these platforms is really important. 769 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,760 And I feel like there's a a very wide spectrum of solutions. 770 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:25,120 So kind of like there's kind of like sovereign roll ups kind of 771 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,440 on one hand, and then there's kind of like Tycho on the other 772 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,160 end, which kind of like more or less settles everything to 773 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:35,920 Ethereum. And then kind of like there's 774 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:41,120 things in between with kind of centralized sequences and kind 775 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,080 of like then the federation of sequences. 776 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,720 And kind of like that that that, that there's a question of kind 777 00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:49,880 of like whether you can actually escape to L1, whether you can 778 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,440 actually have fault proofs and and so on. 779 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,800 MSN escalation mechanism as a mental. 780 00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:01,560 So I mean, so how, how, and if you look at how the ecosystem 781 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:06,280 currently chooses an L2 kind of as an engineer really frustrates 782 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:12,320 me that kind of apparently DAP developers don't pay this a lot 783 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,040 of attention. There's very high value 784 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,720 ecosystems on some L2's that are actually extremely centralised. 785 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,160 So so how, how do you explain that? 786 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,640 And how do you, how, how do you do you think there's, there's 787 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,960 the need of kind of vocalizing about this more? 788 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,440 Yeah, I mean it. It started by saying that it's 789 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,080 it's beauty that we need L2B, but it feels very natural. 790 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,680 I mean, someone takes decision even at the beginning, whether 791 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,080 they choose Ethereum or other L1 ecosystem and they, they look 792 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,600 somewhere for that information like it's, it's there it's 793 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,560 available through through blog post, through through Twitter or 794 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,240 other social media. They can they can start hearing 795 00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,800 from friends like, yeah, this, this is where it's very 796 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,480 valuable. That's where the values are. 797 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,160 This is where it's safe where it's safe, but they and this is 798 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,000 a big plague of the of the blockchain ecosystems like the 799 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,320 entire industry that's it's really hard to get that 800 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,800 information. So every venue like LTP helps a 801 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,720 lot and if you make the system permission less than anyone can 802 00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,160 launch anything without any reputation. 803 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,760 And now you seek the information at the beginning of building 804 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,240 over time, the the resilience and and trust in the thing and 805 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:32,320 the trustless thing, right? Trust in the trustless thing 806 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,200 that you build over time. So maybe you still have some 807 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,160 long range attacks, but you say, OK, this this gold base was 808 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,400 verified many times. Even when we talk about like 809 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,400 Bitcoin or Etherium, we say, look, the system exist. 810 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,840 The systems existed for many years, so are verified and we 811 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:48,840 feel safer. But if the user comes for the 812 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,360 first time to, to the industry, they need something that will 813 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,480 show the maybe the list of the ecosystem, say how many years 814 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,000 they are in was the was the perception of of their safety, 815 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,480 what your values are. And it's the same for L2. 816 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,640 So it's the same for the Defy applications. 817 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,200 Like if someone deploys A defy application on AMM on Ethereum, 818 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,320 you'd like to compare them like what is the liquidity there? 819 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,240 How they're designed? Do they have imitability or 820 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:18,720 proxies? Do they have, do they have like 821 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:22,720 support from the major a major auditors verifying and 822 00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:24,240 confirming that a code base is correct? 823 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,920 So I think on every single layer of blockchain, we're looking for 824 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,640 this until we have some like really advanced high high 825 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:36,040 quality AI models that can give us give us that assessment 826 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,360 independently of any external providers. 827 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,400 So we can launch on your own device like edge device AI that 828 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,160 will tell you this is safe to use, This is the blockchain to 829 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,240 use, this is D52S, this is L2 to use. 830 00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:48,960 It's really hard to do it the other way. 831 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,320 Users, developers will choose some ecosystems when they feel 832 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,760 they have the best parameters. So like the maybe the best 833 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,640 users, best users for their particular applications, the 834 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,920 best liquidity. What is very important for us is 835 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,800 they, they always feel that they, they will always check 836 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,680 like how, how much of that connection of like how much of 837 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,240 that security and censorship resistance aspect from the L1 838 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,320 they, they have in the ecosystem. 839 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,440 And they either can verify it by analysing the, the contracts 840 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,960 governing the, the L2 or the design architecture of the L2, 841 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,440 or they can check it via L2 beat or other sources. 842 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,600 They're comparable. And this is the aspect of 843 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,600 branding of material. Like if you claim that you're 844 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,360 ATM roll up, at some point, we have to maybe start saying that 845 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,720 no, this is not a roll up or not. 846 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,160 They, they are insecure. No, they don't. 847 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,200 Don't interrupt with everything else. 848 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,400 And if the interoperability improves and this is a big 849 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,160 challenge for us for sure like this is this will be a a huge 850 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,160 effort of the inter ecosystem to bring that good feel of the same 851 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,000 tooling, network effects, interoperability. 852 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,360 So, so that's those choices maybe are much clearer. 853 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,440 It means that it doesn't mean that you'll be always choosing 854 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,440 the same L2, but it will be very clear based on your your type of 855 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,240 application that you're deploying where you go and it 856 00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:13,720 will be very clear that you always want that connection with 857 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:20,120 with L1. So, so I think that I, I was 858 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,360 exploring recently a lot of conversations with enterprises 859 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:24,800 like institutions, traditional finance. 860 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,480 And very often they push exactly for the, for the values that 861 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,800 we're talking about. They're asking about the privacy 862 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,480 for the customers. They're asking about the 863 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,320 censorship resistance, like for access to the market and no 864 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,120 censoring of the financial transactions. 865 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,800 They're asking for asking for variability and an open source 866 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,400 aspect of it. And while they're asking for the 867 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,480 customizations for that, they want to have control over some 868 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,440 aspects of their internal business processes, internal 869 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,360 matching their their, their customers interactions for their 870 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,800 own L twos. They do ask about L1 that they 871 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,880 can allow their customers to venture to, to have this global 872 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,280 neutral market. You don't go now to the 873 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,280 institutions that ask for their own L1. 874 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,440 Rarely, rarely I hear that they see that there is a huge value 875 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,400 in participating in the global economy for Etherium L1. 876 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,080 They have some needs for the L2 for scaling, but they always 877 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,280 want to provide a lot of like the transactional processes 878 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,800 supported by privacy on L1. So where when they support all 879 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,000 of this, then we also have even more funding for privacy for 880 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,960 users, for retail users. So I see a lot of and then you 881 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,960 ask about Tycho, like there's the spectrum, right? 882 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,800 So and so Tycho being a base roll up and Justin's direction 883 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,080 towards saying native roll up and base roll up. 884 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,800 It's really important. There is lots of optimism from 885 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,480 from Justin, from others that look some of the progress on the 886 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,600 CKVMS, what you see on the EF proves websites, you can go 887 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,440 there and you can see how old the CKVMS compete for the 888 00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,040 performance of proving all of that shows like a lot of promise 889 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,480 that you can accelerate. This time when I show, it says 890 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,680 five years. And this is very reasonable that 891 00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:09,240 we push constantly that there's technology changing, there is 892 00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:14,840 AI, it accelerates our research and it means that we see much 893 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,680 more of a progress on Zika than we expected already. 894 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,800 So maybe this is the same for the future. 895 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,880 So maybe in two years we'll have like super operational base 896 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,920 native for all of us with ZKVM, which is very close to what you 897 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,280 were talking about when you mentioned sharding of the past 898 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,840 with the composability of multiple L twos within this MAT 899 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:39,080 for all up containers. I wanna believe all of this kind 900 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,560 of because kind of like technically it makes sense, 901 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,160 right? But kind of we've seen time and 902 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:50,480 time again that the technically best system doesn't always win, 903 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,480 right? Kind of like there's other kind 904 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,240 of considerations that kind of play into that. 905 00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,040 And I think the, the one that people always talk about is 906 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,000 better Max versus VHS. And that's, that was 40 years 907 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,960 ago. But I mean, we have more recent 908 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:10,200 ones to kind of as, to kind of like 4G standards and so on. 909 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,160 So kind of why Max was superior to LTE and LTE still won out. 910 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,400 So kind of it's, it's kind of like there's this happens all 911 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,200 the time that kind of like there's some sort of that 912 00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:28,080 there's a a solution that is understood to be the better 913 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,040 solution. But the other yeah, the the 914 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,320 alternative still wins out, right. 915 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,680 So kind of like if you are in this position where US 916 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:42,160 presidents kind of launch them shit coins on kind of 917 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:47,000 alternative protocols, does it, does it confer enough gravitas 918 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,880 and kind of seriousness to kind of take away from that 919 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:58,040 technically valid claim from Ethereum that kind of it's the 920 00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,080 best solution? Kind of like how? 921 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:02,560 Yeah. So yeah. 922 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:04,880 I think this is exactly where Ethereum wins. 923 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,360 So, I mean, so Ethereum very often will be maybe people ask 924 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,800 about it's yeah, it's as the most secure solution, but it's 925 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,080 maybe rough around the ages sound like taking advantage of 926 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,280 all the latest developments in the in like accelerating the 927 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,680 blockchain design. Because there are there'll be 928 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,720 always some, some fresh and burdened unburdened systems that 929 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,760 will say, oh, wait, we do the more transactions per second. 930 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,000 So, so and then you would say, does it mean that this like best 931 00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,400 current technology wins or we are very confident that this is 932 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,480 what what we all bring to Ethereum with the respect for 933 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,600 all the values, because this is how we attract the the 934 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,760 customers, the users capital and so on. 935 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,320 So almost you can say this is exactly why Ethereum is winning 936 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,920 because it has the technology that is really caring about the 937 00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:55,440 delivery of everything that matters. 938 00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,720 And at the speed that we are exerting. 939 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,320 And we definitely, this is just our task to improve that 940 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,640 efficiency of delivery of the, of the improvements. 941 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,440 That if, if there is a lag between the innovation and 942 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,560 adoption to Ethereum of some solutions, that's not a two 943 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,160 years lag, It's not a one year lag, but it's maybe like a few 944 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,840 months before we see, oh, this is really functioning and it can 945 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,120 go in the next 4 correct 2 fours from now. 946 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,320 But we know that the developer ecosystem, the tooling, the 947 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:29,280 adoption from, from the, from the financial industry, the 948 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,440 adoption of users. So, so look at recent recent 949 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,160 announcements from the acceleration of World Coin users 950 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,080 on boarding based on boarding class of users. 951 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,440 Starknet recently showing that game, that focus tree that's got 952 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,240 like 200,000 users and it's growing in the App Store, 953 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,400 massive success. So all of this just shows us 954 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,720 like this technology is winning. Like we see the numbers and it's 955 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:58,960 winning and see and we have all twos that actually strengthen 956 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:04,200 that and show us that. On top of it, we have capacity 957 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,040 to compete with any alternative O1 through those O twos. 958 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,160 They can adopt even faster any scaling capacity solutions that 959 01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:16,040 can go to the massively scaled blocks, novel P2P systems and we 960 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,680 bring it also to Oman. So I would say that's the 961 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,960 draftness of technology, but not in the sense of like security or 962 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,000 caring about the values and delivering that promise. 963 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,040 This is not draft. This is what we always care 964 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,960 about, but this sometimes delay the the innovation because you 965 01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,840 need a bit of verification. Is it is that mouse verified? 966 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,560 Is that are the Zika solutions really, really fine? 967 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:43,480 Will they, will they cause like the, the massive bug in the that 968 01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,240 you have to keep patching and then you will not even be able 969 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,320 to confirm that like everything was fine, right? 970 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,240 We've seen it with Zika technology in the past. 971 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,160 We have hundreds of researchers and and testers and engineers 972 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,200 verifying all the claims about all the IPS that go into the 973 01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:02,240 system. If you're kind of championing 974 01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,840 the AL twos in kind of this competition with alternative A 975 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,680 ones, how do you see kind of the problem of cross A2 976 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,080 interoperability? So kind of like if currently 977 01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,440 kind of like I am, I want to exit from optimism and go to 978 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,040 Arbitrim, it'll take me a week, right? 979 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,320 Kind of I could probably send a postcard faster. 980 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:30,160 So it it's kind of and kind of the varying message standards 981 01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,320 and seek. I mean, so should that should 982 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:38,520 kind of Ethereum kind of institute a a message passing 983 01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:44,160 standard or kind of like a kind of because kind of one of the 984 01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:50,760 core propositions of kind of having a twos is that having L 985 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,760 twos on the same L1 is that in principle, you can kind of have 986 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,680 this cross L2 communication without necessarily kind of 987 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,640 going via the L1, right. But we don't see that yet. 988 01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:08,640 So kind of we see kind of a number of siloed ecosystems on 989 01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:14,800 top of L2 on top of L1 that kind of don't don't act like a 990 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,400 unified ecosystem. So is is there a way to kind of 991 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,320 make this happen, and if so, make this happen faster? 992 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,920 Yeah, sure. I mean, so there is, there is 993 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,440 open intense initiative coordinated by Josh Rudolph. 994 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:34,840 We see the the fantastic bridging solutions appearing in 995 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,280 the theoremic system all the time. 996 01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,320 The fact that we need all that many bridging solutions and 997 01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,120 that's we still don't have one that says like, yeah, this is 998 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,960 like globally acceptable and best experience. 999 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,680 This remains a challenge and this is what will be the major 1000 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,040 coordination and research effort from the foundation. 1001 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:58,840 I totally agree with you that this experience is not not best 1002 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,680 yet. I think that probably the 1003 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,480 existing bridging solutions you wouldn't wait a week. 1004 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,800 It's just that you would sacrifice some of the security 1005 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,040 assumptions. You would have some, some third 1006 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,920 parties providing the temporary custody or some kind of 1007 01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,720 insurance level. So, so user experience, 1008 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,640 definitely it's not on the weak level, but the user experience 1009 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,800 with the guarantees of Ethereum would be there. 1010 01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,520 And, and this will be massive effort. 1011 01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,240 And I think there's lots of challenges there. 1012 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,160 But it also means that, look, those challenges will wait for, 1013 01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,480 for any other ecosystem, because we expect the growth of the 1014 01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,920 demands to always be beyond of anything that the L1 can 1015 01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,200 deliver. Combined with the customization 1016 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,360 requirements and, and some kind of control over the chain that, 1017 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,360 for example, enterprise on the like the, the international 1018 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,360 institutions when they, when they come and they say, we need 1019 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,320 something, we have more control and we need the global system 1020 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,600 where we actually have no control because it's neutral and 1021 01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,560 it's, it's censorship resistant. So this together means that any 1022 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,560 other ecosystem that will compete with Eteria will face 1023 01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:09,520 those challenges sooner or later. 1024 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:16,560 And, and we are spending a lot of effort on this, but it also 1025 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:20,560 means that in, in many ways we are already ahead of others who 1026 01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,720 will face that as well. And I think this is challenge 1027 01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,840 for other alternative ones like they, they look at Etherium and 1028 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:31,480 they think, all right, consistency, the, the customers 1029 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,840 that we are approaching, potential customers that we are 1030 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,680 approaching or, or the, OR any institution that we want to 1031 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:41,600 invite. They, they say to us not like we 1032 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,520 use Ethereum because they're on Ethereum, we feel less like a 1033 01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:45,680 customer. It's just ours. 1034 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,280 Like we just take it so and, and we can shape it the way we want 1035 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,040 and we can participate in global economy. 1036 01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,160 So it's really hard to compete with that when you like want to 1037 01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,560 treat someone as customer, but they say, no, we just want to 1038 01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,800 use the network and get all those network effects. 1039 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,280 And then they get support from L twos that actually come and 1040 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,480 treat them as customers and they say, you have everything this 1041 01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:12,160 together. So massive challenge from us 1042 01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,760 from all twos inviting all twos to help us with those interrupt 1043 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,280 standards. There are multiple proposals we 1044 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,640 see, we see the OP interrupt proposal, we see various like 1045 01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:25,200 breaches that they come like list many. 1046 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,600 I wouldn't like to start listing because then I'll meet too many 1047 01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,480 the, the open intense initiative, the various 1048 01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:36,360 solutions in the maybe like MEV order flow space as you see like 1049 01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:39,520 the the relative solutions and so on and so on. 1050 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:44,520 And so D all of this has to feel unified and it comes also with, 1051 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,160 with tool link like wallets, the user experience. 1052 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,680 Maybe, maybe LLMS will come with help. 1053 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,480 The, the account abstraction that is coming to TJM came with 1054 01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,760 Impactra and the first first solutions and they'll continue 1055 01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,160 all of that together. A lot of work. 1056 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,600 And that's why we talk scaling everyone and scaling blobs, but 1057 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:07,200 also interrupt and UX. Maybe possibly the biggest 1058 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:12,840 challenge of all of them. Who is so kind of if you look 1059 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,880 ahead, I mean, you, you guys just started. 1060 01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,560 So kind of like if you look ahead one year and maybe five 1061 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,800 years, what, what does success look like for you guys? 1062 01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,840 So for me, look, my term is 2 years with the foundation, which 1063 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:31,680 means that for me, success means that I really show that like 1064 01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,440 within two years, we can achieve a lot of a lot of things that 1065 01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,560 people are are saying that are to be solved. 1066 01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,800 Now that if we, if we mentioned those things like scaling go on 1067 01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:47,040 scaling blobs and improving drop UX, that this within these two 1068 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:51,600 years, it should be a massive change and A and a feeling that, 1069 01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:53,280 yeah, that's this really happened. 1070 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,400 And it means that even if we set the goals, then the success for 1071 01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,720 me means got much beyond those goals, right? 1072 01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:05,200 That it's it's really absolute win a huge impact, a really 1073 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:08,360 great vibes between LL twos and L ones and everyone in 1074 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:13,400 ecosystem. The the funds that will that 1075 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:17,840 will deploy trillion dollar level funds on on Etherium, the 1076 01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:22,600 L1 that everyone is excited about that it's just like it has 1077 01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:26,880 such a huge capacity and such a high value set of transactions 1078 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:31,040 that it generates massive fees. So all of that together is a is 1079 01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:36,680 a success And and beyond that there's other story For me, this 1080 01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,160 is like 2 years focus. They're around everything that 1081 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,160 needed attention. Make sure that communication, 1082 01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:48,320 all of this feels feels great. And then and I'll be really 1083 01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:51,120 happy like to to see others to continue. 1084 01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,200 Yeah. What about you? 1085 01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,600 Shall we? I think it's for short term. 1086 01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:03,080 I want decision to be the default choice for all the use 1087 01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:08,640 cases, including that L2. Choose what L1 is. 1088 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:15,880 And then it's from application layer, it's from the institution 1089 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,920 layer. And then it's from the older 1090 01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,359 builders that they want to build something, they should choose 1091 01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:27,040 external because this is the most securely, the most robust, 1092 01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,840 this is the best trend they can they should build on. 1093 01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,359 When they choose blockchain technology. 1094 01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:36,080 This is should be the default for them. 1095 01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:43,399 And I also want to improve the UX in order to for the users 1096 01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:51,760 that they don't even need to be aware of blockchain exist in the 1097 01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:55,560 app. So I think it takes some time to 1098 01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,960 improve our wireless system and it takes some time to provide a 1099 01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:03,840 very good pipeline for the DAP layer to improve the UX. 1100 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:08,960 So I think this world won't be too far away. 1101 01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:15,520 So if kind of like each of you kind of had to give one number 1102 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:20,319 one priority for your, for your term in kind of like just one, 1103 01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:22,240 because kind of like we talked about a lot of things, kind of 1104 01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:27,640 we talked about scaling block space and BLOB space and A2 into 1105 01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,240 our probability and user experience and so on. 1106 01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:34,880 So if it's just one priority, what what will you kind of 1107 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:39,240 optimize for? For people to come and see like 1108 01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:42,880 thousands or millions of applications on Etherium 1109 01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:45,000 ecosystem all feeling like 1 and. 1110 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:54,320 What about you, Shaway? I would say to bring Ethereal 1111 01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:59,120 alive again. Good parting words. 1112 01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,760 Thank you both for coming on. We will share kind of like other 1113 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,640 places you can follow you guys personally and the Ethereum 1114 01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,800 Foundation on Twitter and elsewhere. 1115 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,520 And thank you so much for stepping up. 1116 01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,440 Thank you, very thank you so happiness. 1117 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,320 Thank you so much. Thank you, Federica. 1118 01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:21,040 It was massive pleasure.