Ami is your new favorite multi-chain mobile app, that
puts the power of whip 3 at your fingertips and just three Taps.
You can stay can manage your assets on over 22 built-in
protocols including all major EVMS, l2s and non EVMS, like
Kosmos Solana near and more. Ami abstracts away all the
complexity while being fully self custodial, meaning getting
yield on. Your crypto has never been this
easy and secure Omni also has multi chain and a few support so
you can view all your mfds in one place.
And you can flex your cleanest and ft by setting it as your app
background. Don't forget to check out the
explore section in the app for your daily fix of the hottest
adapts yields and news across chains.
On September seventh Omni upgraded, the app, to provide
you with more functionality than tens of different defied apps
and wallets combined to highlight their transformation.
They renamed from stake wallet, to Omni the next generation,
super wallet, join thousands of users on this next Generation
wallet by downloading it today on iOS or Android at Omni dot
app. We're here in Midian Columbia,
and we're doing a very special crossover episode between
epicenter and the interop. We're here at Cosmo verse which
is the biggest Cosmos conference happening.
Right now, Cosmos verse ended, two days ago and we're going to
do a recap of what's been going on here.
This week in Midian, I'm very pleased to be with my friend and
co-host. Sunny Agarwal.
Hosted epicenter and co-founder osmosis and the man himself man,
who made this all possible. The guy who brought us all here
hundreds of people to fly to Midian predict osito.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I think the crazy part for me is
that we really manage to get everybody to come to my the in
because I know a lot of people that had some concerns about the
city about Colombia, right? When you hear first time and
you've never been here, your first thoughts of like, oh my
God, it's Everybody gets kidnapped and Pablo Escobar
drugs, this and that. But now people are here and like
I hear people they say next, we got to do it again here.
I don't want to leave. I think everybody's very
excited. Just found out.
Sonny wants to see some some hippos here.
So there's a lot to see a lot of cool find exotic stuff.
You also have a little story to tell you can see on your on your
Twitter. You posted that with the
paragliding like there's a lot of cool stuff you can do here
and the people are amazing. The food is great because it is
just Awful lot of good parts, good parties, whatever you want.
You can find it here except for beach is probably the only thing
that's missing here. But yeah, love love million.
Had a great time. You had caught some words and
just thankful that everybody made it here and we had such a
great time. Yeah there's definitely I think
there's like concern that a lot of people had and I was I was in
Berlin a couple days ago for another conference and people
were talking about hey I gotta get private security and I'm
even I was thinking about okay do I bring my laptop should I
bring my Ledger's you know and then like as soon as we And as
soon as we arrived in the city and all those concerns kind of
went away and there's like, hey, this is like a regular place, it
has it has an interesting history.
But, you know, as long as you're not, like doing anything foolish
like trying to get paid Talent on Tinder, or like scoring some
drugs on the street, you're probably going to be fun.
We wouldn't have done it. If we weren't 100% sure how the
city is and I used to live here for a year, a couple of years
ago. So that's why I'm I was very
confident that everything will be fine and Can you take some
alcohol? And where the next Cosmic versus
going to be unfortunate? It's too early for that, and I
think I heard some rumors here. And there, I mean, I think, in
general, we want to make customers in places that are,
that have high demand for crypto, but they don't have
stuff going on every other week, right?
Yeah. For example, if you look at
Berlin, like, in Berlin, half of the teams are based there,
there's like stuff going on all the time, like everybody knows
the city Midian is exotic, but there's 50 million Colombians A
lot of people that want to get into crypto, right?
We even had the secretary for Innovation and Technology from
the city of Medellin from the mayor's office, right?
And he even came to second day himself, just to listen to the
presentation. Yeah, I was honestly, one of my
favorite talks and yeah, I think it's really impressive.
What they've done like, everything that they're doing.
I mean, of course like, you know, he's kind of pushing an
agenda or whatever but like you know it seems very impressive
like all the stuff we're doing here to like help bring
Innovation and like connectivity and get I didn't have access for
people to learn how to program and things like that.
Super cool. Yeah, I think they want to
position Columbia or many in especially as like, the software
Valley for Latin America. And like you could tell from
this talk, and then there was also another governmental
institution. They really want to push hard
for that, and give all the students, free laptops, for
example. And like, just give get them
into this internet economy. Yeah.
And I think crypto pain, hopefully absorb a lot of that
because, you know, people here, if they learn about defy, if
there are nobody Even staking and having sovereignty for their
for their Finance finances. I think it can have a big impact
here. Right?
Columbia also has high inflation not as high as Argentina
Venezuela but still I think it's a net positive for the people to
at least be aware what exists and you know if they can make
another 10 bucks a month, farming on osmo, then why not?
It's good for them, right? So yeah and I think that's how
we also look for other places to host customers.
It's to look at places that have high demand High population.
Yeah. Maybe a cool city right.
I think a big factor of success for this year's cause movers was
also that million is just an amazing City.
All right, so I think we also want to look at that.
But yeah we'll see thing that we need a few weeks off and then
we'll travel a little bit and Scout the next the next place.
Yeah so I mean we haven't like properly introduced yes.
I mean the people who listen I think through the interop know
who you are. I think Maybe on a center side,
you know, some of the some of the ogee theorem people perhaps
are not familiar with your work and your YouTube channel.
So yeah, who is cooked osito? I started my Cryptid journey in
early 2017 and I've pretty much done everything wrong for two or
three years, it into the next big thing lost everything.
Believed, everything a bit naive for a long time, but I think
everybody has to go through this once.
But yeah, then when when 2019, Mmmmm and actually lifted many
in here. I saw that like, I feel like
we've gotten out and I feel like, you know, we're ready for
for the next cycle. So I Was preparing for that.
I was reading a lot. I did a lot of events all around
the world. I did a lot of research
networking, I think. Also talking to people at
events. Physically is one of the best
things and ways to learn about crypto to build up a network.
And then sometime around when covid started.
I just bought a camera and started to record because like I
said, I've done so much wrong. I send clients to the wrong
address, I got a guy had fines on Wallace, it don't exist
anymore on exchanges, that don't exist anymore and I think I just
wanted to share that learning with people that are maybe new
to crypto because it helped me in the beginning to learn from
others that have done this before.
And then I don't know in the beginning it was just random I
just click record and talked About whatever, but then I did,
I found Cosmos. Thanks to Jack example--and.
He got me into it and he had a call with me.
This was pre IBC, and he walked me through everything, and he
was so passionate about it, and then the rest is history.
I mean, from there, I just went deeper deeper deeper connected
with everyone. I also like the ideology a lot
about Cosmos because I think before that this is Bitcoin
tribalism, came up, really big, and I really didn't like that.
And also, I think, The YouTube was, I think still is but back
then, even more. So was flooded with by bit
leverage Traders, referral links here and there and like, I just
don't think that's true valuable.
I mean, everybody can do whatever they want.
But, yeah, I just wanted to make a more fundamental content
Channel. And yeah, no.
I'm just basically all in & Kosmos on that end, but I'm also
very interested in other ecosystems.
I'm not just only Cosmos, but that's where I spend most of my
time in. Yeah, yeah, that's it.
I think we all share that. Yeah, Channel.
I know for a lot of people, it's like, how they got into Cosmos.
So many people, I thought I found out about, I got into the
ecosystem through you. It was really funny because I
think I've been on your podcast like on your channel, a couple
of bunch of times, and you always have to bring me.
This was really fun to like turn the tables a little bit.
Yeah, I enjoyed that actually, it's cool.
I don't have to prepare myself. Yeah.
So how did you go from, you know, having a YouTube channel
and a lot of causes videos to organizing Cosmo bursts I mean,
I've I've done events before that, I've actually done one
year many in. Before I've done one in Buenos
Aires like a general crypto event.
And when I was living in Shanghai for my exchange year,
when we're living in Shanghai, 2018, 2018, okay, I went there
because I studied Chinese and economics Germany, but then, I
had one exchanger in China. And that's where I met other
guys. And we co-hosted crypto Mondays
in Shanghai. Yeah, which was really cool.
There was a big success. So, I was ahead.
This Background of like doing events getting people together.
I think there's also my what I love my skill is just Connecting
People. Yeah.
Right in like the goal for this customers was also like to just
get all of you guys together. Look the doors for 34 days and
then you guys talk. I just I just enjoy it.
But yeah, so the background and the passion just for connecting
people and then yeah, it was it was coincidence and luck I
guess. And the right timing when I
moved to Spin last year. That I also met the right guy,
's with myself a boundary because I could never do this
alone, right? So when we saw that, hey there,
Solana break point and there's ceaseless, Khan is less pain and
less corn and whatever and Evelyn's house requested.
No, no Cosmos event like the needs to be a cosmos, even at
least in this week, right? At least one meet up because I
knew you are were coming anyways right?
For you all this system events. Yeah and then we basically Came
together and we said, let's make it, let's make a meet-up at
least and then this little idea for like maybe we can have some
presentations and then maybe we can even fill a full day and
then it turned out to be two full days.
Seven hundred people showed up but I think yeah just was also I
think the first time after years that everybody came together and
Cosmos so it was just the right timing black and yeah, the red
City to start like the first Cosmos conference in the kind of
the only guy. Sometimes rules that existed
before that was the inner chain conversations that happened in
Berlin and it was like this kind of, you know, it was cool like
see like this first Cosmos conference and I was a hackathon
and of course, like Azam Azam was built there and everything,
but then like I remember seeing Cosmic perspective?
What the fuck is this? Who's cleaning?
This thing is the ICS behind the ICF like, who is this?
And yeah, I mean like I totally get this whole like, hey, let's
do a meet-up and then it turns into this thing because like we
also have so similar thing with nebular where, You know, at
first, I want to do like a kind of a side event with ECC and
then it became like this. I mean I was big as the cosmos
but it was like you know, three other people and like and now we
want to turn it into a conference.
So I things in Cosmos like really are accelerating and you
know, the size of this and the events that are happening at
like just really I think proof that even like this.
That's just cause a verse from compared to last year.
Like I feel it feels like it's like I know how many people
showed up here, feels like at least three times bigger or at
least with the energy and everything.
Yeah. And, you know, and we're in a
bear market now. So, you know, that's and also,
you know, that there's no Mary Margaret, and I was like, I
said, like a lot lost last year. It was that sort of co-located
with, like, all these other conferences.
So there was a lot of spillover people.
I know, you know, it wasn't a great Securities, ready?
I know everyone was like walking in without tickets, if it was
great, it was anywhere cause but here it's like, know everyone
was here. Came specifically just for this
event, right? They had to come all the way to
Medellin for like Cosmic were. So just shows like how Much the
community has grown in the last one year or even we also got a
little bit of credibility. Obviously also for Colombia from
def con right which is happening in a week.
Yeah are two weeks in Bogota but I think yeah like I said I mean
I know you told me this in the beginning like you believe that
customers deserves its own conference, right?
Not Cloud chasing other events or other communities.
Like we're big enough to do this and I think this year customers
has proven that we actually are. And I think, In total, we had
over 1,500 people. There saying, yeah, that's a
crazy. There were like, people showing
up. I didn't even know, like, crazy
crazy people. I may have told people that,
hey, drop it, take a look like anybody away at least said, I'm
not aware of that, but I think from over 35 countries, which is
that's the crazy part to me. Like, there were people like
Jacob, right? Jacob.
Flew in from Vietnam? Yeah, like that's a crazy trip.
It's a funny, our trip. And now he's going back with an
awesome tattoo. I don't know which control of
others. Yeah.
Yeah, we got it. There's people that flew in from
Australia, from Japan, Hong Kong South Korea like real.
A lot of the US with your from from India.
A lot of them exactly in Europe. Yeah.
So that I think that's so cool part and like you say like
they're just they just came for this specifically.
Like a lot of Latinos, right? Like we got people from
Argentina, Mexico, Peru Chile big team from particular
Dominican, the Dominicans are crazy.
Like and you can also tell like talking about where where to
host customers next, right? Like, you can see, we're already
small communities exist, right? Like the Dominican Republic is
is a small country, but they have already like 3040 hardcore
cosmonauts, right? And they're super pumped and
excited to maybe one day, host customers there.
R. And you know why not Punta Cana?
So yeah, that's great speech - there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a semi, like, I think all
the people that were saying, you know, staying in this whole area
we roll cosmonauts. And, you know, I just like, see
people with Kosmos, t-shirts everywhere, like, like, what the
locals listening, like, what's this costumes?
They you like even, I mean, even the somewhat drivers, either
came to the conference or like, oh yeah, you're also from this
Cosmos events. So like the locals Hearing about
it and funny thing that kid a restaurant down there, which is
actually a big restaurant. They just told me yesterday when
everything was over, they told me that this is the first time
ever that we're running out of food is like crazy.
Like every single room in the hotel was booked.
They have 300 rooms. I think nearly 200 were from
cosmonauts. They're obviously, still have
other people here and it's an international big hotel right
there. Yeah, people just come here
anyways, but nearly every room was booked And we booked every
single room for the conference like every single meeting room.
Every single conference room, three different floors.
I think from like the amount of detail that went into this, the
never had this here. Yeah, the region team booked an
entire Hotel. I was talking to Greg and he's
like, yeah, we just want an Airbnb.
We booked like all these rooms in this Boutique Hotel and it
turns out we just have the whole hotel so they're like throwing
parties in the sauna and I yeah, wow.
Yeah. So what, what were the It can
big highlights for you guys here in terms of announcements.
I mean, like obviously there's the atom 2.0 announcement.
We we can talk about that. But yeah, maybe before we talk
about that, what kind of other important highlights?
Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of
a lot of different things. I think you know I got I was
going to talk about some of the mesh Securities.
Yeah. That people in the about for a
long time and just you know I think it's something that we
kind of all intuitively thought about a new it that was going to
happen in. Yeah.
Yes, but like, it was able to, like kind of formalize it a
little bit and put the ideas down into like comprehendible,
like so that. Yeah, I think that was really
fun. And then on top of that, just
like, I'm just like, seeing a lot of the more underground
projects like, like talk a little bit more like Babylon for
example, that was super cool. Yeah, I did an interview with
with Fisher own a time out this week.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that that's really cool. Got, you know, and just like
seeing An update on like, what everyone is working on.
Yeah, so that was really just fun to see.
So, yeah, let's talk about this mess.
Security thing is, like I said, it's something that.
I mean, it certainly I've been thinking about like, you know,
in sort of abstract ways but never really put a name on it or
but this idea that basically chains can secure each other and
create this kind of look, strong bond between like all chains.
Yeah, the idea is just this is that, you know, the point of
Cosmos is Okay. Interchange security is not
supposed to be a hub and spoke system, right?
If we just end up building another Hub and spoke system,
we're no different than every other ecosystem, right?
Polka dot at the area with their Roll-Ups.
Everyone is building like one Central chain and then a bunch
of things that depend on it. And that's like, you know,
that's cool but like the point of Cosmos is like to build this
like truly decentralized system. No one chain at the center and
to do that. How do you make that work,
right? So how do these Sovereign, how
can we have a network of many, many sovereign change.
No, we go. I often go around pitch.
This option Vision to have people, but then there are
first. Question is always like labor,
how is this all going to be secure, right?
Don't you need like etherium level security or polka?
Dot level security and the answer is all of the options are
going to secure each other. So it kind of like the NATO
model where it's like okay NATO is a collection of sovereign
countries. They all have Our own governance
systems. They don't interfere in each
other's internal politics. But if they have a joint
security mesh, where if any one country gets are packed all of
them, sort of rush to each other's defense.
I love how you always bring us back down.
The geopolitics, like the geopolitics analogies that you,
that you provide to kind of, you know, help help understand how
this is going to work. So effective, and when you gave
this slide, we like the NATO, all the NATO countries and like
all the alliance's that they have.
And also this kind of like this, the shared security that At that
exist between them. I think is like a really
accurate analogy of what this might look like.
Yeah, yeah. So I think that's, that's, you
know, we've always thought a lot about like, when we're designing
Cosmos like to, if you a little bit of a technical system, but
it's also like a political economic system as Bucky would
like to fuck you likes to say and you know, where we're
thinking about the technical side of things.
We often look at the internet for inspiration, we're looking
at like, the political economic situation.
We really do like to think about like oh how do communities form,
you know, how to Sovereign communities interact with each
other? And you know, go as like as
Bucky like to say what we're building is you know we're not
building the world computer and Cosmos, right?
We're building the community computers.
Yeah. And how do communities interact
in the real world? Their clocks hands are gonna
have like similar interfaces or, you know, relationships as well.
How far do you think is Indigent security or an endgame furniture
and security because Like version one obviously, which is
very ecstatic in that sense and then version to version 3, how
far is my security? Because I still have to listen
to your target is, I was just running around, I couldn't.
That's what plane rides reform, and download all the toxins.
How far is that away my security, your messenger that
you have from the endgame of ICS?
Yeah, I think it's obviously a little bit more complicated for
sure. Then the V1, what mesh security
really is, is the V3 design, But run bi-directionally, instead of
one chain providing security bills, don't reggiani three in
opposite directions for my understanding.
I believe the informal team had actually pause development on B2
and B3 because they found what they thought there was like
issues with it and so what we were able to do was like help
them, explain the cleaning. Oh, this is actually how you
solve this issue and this issue at this issue.
And I think they're like pretty on board again with the with
moving towards this idea. So try to Young yesterday about
like I think they're also really excited about my security as
well and over to help build this.
I know I know that I know Jake from Juno is like so excited.
He's like he's like ready to start hacking on it this weekend
at how causa and he's like, okay, we're gonna start building
a prototype right now like him and even fry.
And and I repaid would try to like build some for some
primitive pieces. Today obviously this all going
to end but you know, the second interesting thing is like, kind
of like randomly independent, one thing, I think I've
realized. By just talking to people at
this conference and just like seeing how the same development
is I think that we have to start treating Cause And while some as
a more like a core piece of the cosmos pack, where it just like
so much faster to do faster than they could prototyping in the
causes us to K is really supposed to be this like kernel
level code where you need, if you need to touch the Deep
stuff, like, staking, or how transaction fees were that stuff
should really be in, like, Cosmic and SDK but like, you
know, defy logic. New IBC, protocols.
That stuff is way faster than writing IBC.
And I think almost. Yeah, it's in Cosmo.
Awesome. And I think that like all Cosmos
change actually going forward, or it causes SDK change, at
least, should Implement some sort of permission cause a
Muslim like similar to ours, Moses does.
And I think change that don't honestly are going to be like,
kind of Left Behind. We've actually added, you know,
we have our first core module that we've written in cause
Muslim now, which is I, IDC rate, limiting.
It's like a way of you know, dealing with hacks and yeah,
where it's like it says Hey only 20% of at IBC Channel TV l or
whatever. Can go every six hours or so.
Okay, right. Basically all your IBC can
already see transfers are going through cause I'm awesome.
They're not going through the like, what different level,
well, they told you, the causes of, when it receives fun,
obviously packet, it passes it to the cotton balls on contract
that does the rate limiting. And, and then the cosmic and
then the Caldwell Contra. It's like a middleware stack.
Is that you awesome? So interesting.
Okay, so with regards to, with regards to like this permission
permission cause a Muslim thing you just mentioned, can you
explain what what you mean by that?
Why would it be permission? Why would just be
permissionless? Because I don't think that, you
know, you don't want to permissionless chain writing
instructor pulling whatever you want.
Write this more of a way of life.
Oh, I see. So you're saying that.
Change to deploy causing Muslim as a way to implement other
sorts of functionality for their chain and at a minimum and then
perhaps like some other like exactly.
Yeah. So like this IDC rate limiting
contract, we are going to add a cosmos this but, you know, I'm
sure other chains will want to add it as well, okay?
So you know, yeah, it doesn't way of iterating, quick more
quickly on features. Yeah.
Okay. Like, as opposed to say like the
etherium route where they built all these These four core
functions like into the evm. Yeah.
In Cosmos it would be better to build them as contracts and you
have the core modules call them Zach, okay?
Very interesting. So, one of the things that our
team has been working on a lot over the last like, you know,
three or four months is like, deepening the relationship, like
the inter, how easy? Because right now, you have a
lot of teams who are like, very Cosmos SDK focused, right?
Like they don't, they don't use cause Muslim.
Then you have a lot of teams that are very kazim, wasn't
focused on like you know, confio team the build Cosmos.
They kind of really only think in terms of cause and bosm.
Yeah. Juno is very much like, you
know, they're their core chain is very, very minimalistic and
they have a lot of cool Logic on the cause of Muslim side, but
osmosis we Ike have a lot of stuff happening on the causes
SDK side and a lot of stuff happening on the cosmos some
site. And so, we've had to spend a lot
of time like making the interaction process between
these two systems like very seamless.
And so, yeah. So I think that that tooling
that we go to is going to start, to be able to be used by more
change as well. Well, what do you think in that
context? Then around the prop 69
implementing cousin was among the cosmos harp which failed and
now they're building Neutron, which is a smart contract
platform. So what are you thoughts on that
for her? Oh, I better get some props and
I so II think it was like, a no-brainer.
Yeah. What do you think about?
Yeah, I mean, hearing you now. I think that perhaps it makes
sense to implement it on the cosmos chain as as a on the
cosmos obtained as kind of a permission thing.
So that more Of the will come to it.
Yeah, I also felt that having caused a Muslim on the cosmos
tub was was not. Yeah.
I think I voted no on that as well and like yeah, it's not the
role of the cosmos hope so. I think especially after having
2.0 probably C9, wasn't for permissionless, causing wasn't?
It was for permission to Cosimo. So isn't okay.
And I guess, I don't think it's the point of it is not add more
functionality to the hub necessarily, right?
It's I think it was two, Be able to like add new IBC, protocols
or, you know, for example, you know, the composable team is
building the substrate IDC. Yeah, but how it's actually, the
IBC client is actually can be written in God and walls, mmm.
And so it's like, other. I feel you need to this more.
And more of the stack, is that I move towards that?
Yeah, maybe after osmosis influence this and, you know,
starts building useful features and cause them was maybe other
people start following that model.
That's kind of what I think. That's what our plan is like,
you know, works. Start domestic.
You ready process with chains that have caused Muslim enabled.
So you know, we'll have osmosis and to know and stargaze and
everyone start doing the message security and then hopefully more
change will start to add it. So I don't you want to do you
know this? But did you did you plan this
before with the, you know about it?
I know anything, you don't know the details beforehand or
whatever, but I asked too much, I wanted to get surprised Self.
But yeah, it was cool. It was awesome.
I also don't like that they chose customers to like
shareholders like because you're asked only for announcements and
like across the board, almost every presentation had some
Alpha in it, some big announcements, Right started,
they also known some stuff intercooled, staking or
something like that, with, with their entities, if you haven't
listened to this one time. Pretty cool stuff.
Yeah, I think Adam 2.0. I mean, this was, I think for a
lot to buy the rumor, sell the news the event for the
conference. Yeah.
But then also Jelena dropped the couple of consumer chains that
are coming with you SEC. Obviously being a big one for
you. Guys also have been involved and
I think getting this done and yeah, I think Adam 2.0 is
obviously a Long play, but I think it's the first time that
there's specific roadmap for the cosmos Hub and yeah we'll see
how it plays out but I think they're still think that they're
putting it on the firm now. Then there's still some feedback
and it has to go and change. So I think it still needs a
little bit. Maybe also to be refined but I
think in general it's a pretty cool thing touches about touches
on a lot of the things we're going to have an odd term.
Not just not just inflation, but also governance, some of the
additional utilities right to also make the costumes, have the
and service provider for other chains without having to enforce
dependencies on the Hub. So, yeah, we'll see.
I think I'm excited about it, but I'm excited about it.
A lot of changing and Cosmos, but yeah.
I'm quite optimistic about I'm 2.0.
I think that it was like a necessary thing in order to
bring actual value and utilities or the cosmos Hub and sort of
set it on a track to remain relevant long-term as an atom
holder. I'm quite excited about it.
Also as you know someone who's been a core believer in the the
cosmos Vision like the app chain vision and everything that you
know, you guys have been working on for the last whatever six
years. I think it's great.
I think the The yeah, I wrote this blog post a couple of weeks
ago. Basically, like asking a
question like an interesting security.
Say the cosmos help from from becoming irrelevant and I think
like I'm 2.0 also is a step in the right direction.
I do think that the I think that the cosmos have needs many,
many, many more chains using International Security.
If you want to stay relevant, I think, like, this is, this is a
great announcement set, right? Like 55 or 6 chain.
So basically, like, Going to be stride, you SEC, there's this
flash, that's Mev pain, staking liquid state, where the quick
cells are so overwhelmed truck. Silver is not having like yet
and I said, yeah, it's try going to be using strike has been
using it. Yeah, but I dream about the way
I was about four or five of them Neutron of course.
But I think that there needs to be a real concentrated Business
Development effort on the part of say, like the ICF and
informal and all these teams to start, Art doing business
development. And I think that there's an
opportunity. I talked about this on the panel
that I hosted with Marco and owner.
There's an opportunity to really position Cosmos and the Hub as
sort of an enterprise-grade ecosystem where toward more like
traditional companies and institutions can start using
Cosmos. And my, the way I see this, as
the cosmos SDK is absolutely proud of, like the best
technology stack to start building.
Decentralized applications and progressively decentralized
them. So you can literally use the
cosmos SDK as like a database, right?
It's just like, a transactional database that allows you to
build logic into it. And then over time, you know,
companies can start opening up, there are their permission model
by adding validators, adding Partners to the validator set
whitelisting users, even maybe doing kyc with wisely,
whitelisted addresses, if they need to write, if they're like
regulated in such a way that you can, Client, they can do that.
And then over time essentially like plug into the internet in
the same way, the companies in the 2000s and like 90s and
2000's were going from intranet to intranet by enabling IBC.
I think that's, I don't know, like who needs to do this, but
like someone needs to build the framework and, and sort of
handhold companies through through this process.
And I don't know if it's the ICF or like the builders program and
wet by like, it needs to happen. One of our like biggest
investors. It's Ribbit Capital.
Yeah, you do not land but they you know, they are one of the
biggest like traditional fintech be seized.
You know they were early in any fan, kick up, you can imagine.
Yeah. And then they've been doing
crypto for a while there very early employee base but they one
of the reasons that they like bet big on osmosis was that you
know they have this giant fintech portfolio and they just
believe that like one day all of these good day companies are
going to have their own blog change and Cosmos is the stack
to do that and osmosis is the center of Cosmos.
And so they're like okay that's, you know, this is why the but
like that idea that like hey all of these companies are going to
start to migrate on to their own Sovereign blockchains.
Yeah, it makes total sense like I mean you know when when we're
building stratum and in 2015 you know we were already using
tender met with their customers and the challenge that we had
back then, was that? There was no ecosystems, right?
We're trying to build consortiums, which I like those
crosses. Those look husband says he
fails, so, but like the challenge, That we had, is that
we were trying to build consort camps and it just wasn't working
because like, that's an enormous feat.
But if you have an ecosystem, that already exists where
there's economic activity where there's liquidity, where you can
build a business and, and start cursor, like redesigning
existing business models to work on on blockchain house was the
perfect place to do it because there's active activity there.
But not only that because you're as a company you're able to
build your application in a permission or more like
controlled way and then over time Depending on your business
needs, open it up to other to other players in the ecosystem.
If you wish, which is something that's, you know, just not
possible on aetherium because like because you share the
security with all the chains, you share the bandwidth oil
change. I mean, maybe with a theorem to,
to that's changing a little bit but causes just seems like the
perfect way to do that you have. I think we also see that we
actually have proof for that already because we see from both
sides right at the institutional side, there were also a couple
of big couple of weeks. He sees here at the conference
and they didn't make a big thing out of it, but they were just
want to make their homework. Yeah.
And then I had to live stream last week with fnac, which is a
90. Yeah, refined and this guy like
we're just talking on telegram right now and he's like, man,
this is cool to school. So are you here as like he
couldn't, he couldn't be here this time, but he watched our, I
think, at least this was watching, all the presentations
are least, the ones that he is interested in on the stream.
But yeah, they're, they're super interested in hyped about it.
And I think the fact that Cosmos is not top down, and in that
sense where there's one organization that does all the
marketing, all the conferences, all the Investments, all the
Beady, but there's like different teams that all work
together, better. Sometimes in a good way,
sometimes there's drama but I think that's very interesting.
It's a different vibe that we have in Cosmos as to compare to
any other ecosystem. You can even side, see that with
customers and we what we did. Our customers, we couldn't do it
in other ecosystems like, if we did it in Solana, like Solana
Foundation or whatever, it's running.
Breakpoint like we can't do that.
Yeah, I uh, K is running the cardano stuff, parrot is running
all the polka dots. Tough New Foundation is running
all the new conferences and all the stuff we could only do it in
Cosmos. So because there is no Central,
giant entity that runs everything in at once to be
everywhere. And I think that's a cool thing.
And the second thing is also a project Why cc dydx is the best
example? Obviously, I think they had some
people here actually, but they just chose Cosmos for the app
chain architecture and for because it fulfills, whatever
they want to build and you see more and more projects that are
doing their homework. Potentially also migrating over
to Cosmos, either the own chain or building on any cousin wasn't
Channel there. And there's multiple out there
that you can use or use interest in security.
I get so many different ways and I feel like it's all coming
together. I think over the past years ever
since I returned Cosmos was never the fleshy project that
had a lot of hype and you know, crazy stuff going on.
But I think now it's all coming together in a very organic way
and very naturally. And I think that's the most
sustainable way even though Autumn didn't pump on the Autumn
to pronouncement. I think long term a term and all
the other coins in the ecosystem will gain more and more market
shares because it's just build in a more Mindful and
sustainable way. And you can see this Chris all
teams like literally as Moses team and the Stargates team
that, you know, team like they're just so focused on
building and also that attracts real users, real protocol
revenue. And I think that's way more
sustainable than having a quick pump because some disease buying
it and then, you know, slowly dies off for for a long time.
So there's another conference going on at the same time in
Singapore can talk and every night and everybody was saying
is like 65 percent feces here and you know like Nick nutmegs a
lesson. Thank God this conversation.
Place. It takes all the boring.
We see that, we can have fun. But on that note of like,
centralized sort of, you know, planning that, you know, there
is, I think some debate around whether or not it's it helps
long-term to align people on like, you know, shared visions
and aligning people on like building the right things, you
know, in Cosmos. We don't really have that same
sort of centralized planning as perhaps--and in Solana or some
of these other This isn't that you mentioned, but there is the
ICF there is, you know, interchange and bah and their
informal systems and to some extent animatic night and they
still hold, like, I think a lot of the, you know, power and
perhaps, like, sort of memetic power as like, you know, these
institutional organizations within Cosmos.
There was a presentation, by youth in Buckman and I also did
an interview with him. She won't watch that it's on the
channel where he talks about redesigning the ICF.
What would you guys? I think of, you know, yeah, what
do you think of the ICF and like, does it need to change in
a more sort of centralized planning more in the Loretta?
Like Salon are, some of the other ecosystem or does it need
to just be kind of a steward that helps the ecosystem go in a
direction. I think signing can talk more
about like because you used to work at tenement, right?
So you can talk more from an Insider perspective, but for me
as an outsider I think it's cool to see how this institutions
exist. Just and help fund projects, the
ecosystem development, all these kind of things and also
conferences but they don't want to be necessarily the center and
in the central point of attention, everything right?
They didn't want to like say, hey this, you know, make this
the interchain the ICF conference.
Right. They gave us the support.
They came full force and foremost and 20 people.
A lot of field from the ICF feel a lot of guilt from ignite here.
And yeah they just want to be part of it but They don't want
to enforce to be in the center and I think that's really cool
to see him. And then I think I found a wise,
right? Like if you look at any other,
you can system, you can see one or two main figures, right?
We're headed Tara with. Do we have Charles, and Cardinal
even vitalik, even though they still in Foundation, probably
doesn't hold the majority of the, of the east in circulation.
Still Batali has big impact on the development roadmap of a
theorem in that sense. And in Cosmos, I think most
people don't even know who Jane is and Yeah, it's like they're
super passionate, but they don't also want to be in the center
and get all the attention, right?
So I think that's a net positive for for the ecosystem because it
doesn't really make any dependencies.
And, you know, yeah, you can see like in cardano right, like
charges so controversial for many and people just don't like
him and that's why they don't like car down or in general.
Yeah. But we don't have I think we'll
never have this problem. Bangkok to be the test of time,
unless Sonny gets crazy. I don't know.
I'm so convinced that Jays, you know, departure was twenty
percent, twenty percent convinced that it was like
performance art because his way of pulling a Satoshi and was a
very smart move. If that, if that's somebody, I
think that Cosmos survive this I think in 2020.
A lot of people saw two customers would be dead.
And like I said on stage, the way I got in is because I bought
some items somewhere and I didn't know I forgot.
Audit and I like, okay, should I do my research?
Or should I just sell it? And luckily, I started doing my
research, but at that time at that time, I didn't even know
what Cosmos was. Like, there was no one talking
about it. It was completely dead on social
media. Yeah.
Because it went through this self-destruction but survived,
and I think, yeah. Also, now, with the recent, the
most recent division of tenement into three new entities, I still
don't understand. I would love for someone to
explain. What the fuck's going on here at
who's behind what but yeah, it could be another episode maybe.
Yeah I think that's just like further dilute stare after power
and impact and I think I think the test here it's simple.
It's like look at any curved or ecosystem and is there a
one-person essentially that like, if that person gets hit by
a bus would the with the community continue to exist?
And I think that in Kosmos, I don't know who that person is
like, I don't know, like one person in Cosmos like if
something were to happen to them that the ecosystem would cease
to exist. Just for other ecosystems.
I really think that that's really kind of debatable.
And yeah, I mean I think it's great.
I think it also creates some challenges in terms of
coordination, but you know, if personally I think the icf's
role in sort of the, you know, these institutions, I think
their role needs to be to just kind of Stewart and curate, a
very light touch way, the sorts of things that the ecosystem
work on and like the direction of the ecosystem.
And so like, you know, I think Bucky, you know, he He sets a
revision and like I think also has a key and of course yourself
Sonny like you know you're all very influential and and you
guys helped sort of broad directions in the ICF and these
institutions that can play that role.
I do think that the ICF needs to be more transparent though and
sort of more more open generally.
Like I feel that it's it's sort of it's sort of an opaque
organization that it's been hard for a lot of folks, to kind of
like understand what they're doing or you know, who's
responsible for what or whatever.
And like if they can just be sort Of providing more on the
ground support. I think would be great.
I think one thing that's kind of good that's happening right now
is the ICF has always been a little bit pulled in two
directions, whether it was unclear a little bit, whether
they were supposed to be the like foundation for Cosmos the
ecosystem or for the cosmos Hub the chain?
Yeah. Two very different things.
Yeah. And I think part of like this
reorg structural reorganize happening right now is like the
Hub team that was at. I see.
IG is going to be moving to informal and so that's going to
like, you know, I think in foremost taking on a little bit
more of this role of being with the lead Deputy for for the hob
while now, the ICF can focus on being not not Hub, Focus, but
being ecosystems. And so that's part of like what
we're doing is what? Well, the new Builders programs
and stuff where it's like getting.
So currently the ICF, you know, it's mean.
Treasuries, all that Adam's, right?
And she's An atom's to like, find a lot of open public goods
but like, you know, I think that the public goods funding should
be resilient against like just, you know, even if Adam doesn't
make it, but the cosmos ecosystem does, we should, you
know, public goods should still be being funded or so more.
So what we're building towards making sure that like, hey, more
change are able to contribute to this like pool of capital.
Yeah, that that are working on public good.
So like if you are working on core Cosmos, SDK stuff, or IBC
stuff, you're not getting paid in this atom but your Upside of
awesomo and Juno and secret and everything like yeah.
All this old stuff and then also just like coordinating better on
like how do we Market the ecosystem as a whole like
getting this like narrative around the IBC and The
Interchange on the Node also of like who is who is running the
show? I think customers we still have
like all these teams. They still have one or two
people that you associate the project with like for you in a
sports is a lot of people associate that with you Stargaze
a lot of them associated with Shane but I think like I said
earlier that if one of them would get hit by a bus, I mean,
there's still so much behind that, right?
Like so many others, very smart developers, they're also very
well connected with everyone. I think Cosmos the cosmos
development is also like a mesh Network where it's like,
everybody's like each other and they're like all very
collaborative. And I don't honestly I mean I've
been around in other ecosystems also before Cosmos, but I've
never seen something like that. Everyone else is more
competitive. Like the there are more private
tribal about their own stuff and I feel like in Cosmos it's more
of a joint effort between all these teams and even though you
fuck it up, sometimes if you are willing to make it better next
time I think there's always still conversations going on.
Like I think people are not really salty about it at least
in the developer side on Twitter of course different thing.
But yeah I think the builders and Cosmos are very
collaborative and I think that's the real core strength of the
ecosystem. So I'm de Bordeaux where you
guys think, will it save the Hub?
Price, Target ads for my first Target?
This part is up. Adam 2.0 that I like and there's
parts that I don't. Okay, what do you like, what?
You don't. What don't you like Parts?
I like I think the allocator process like, you know, this is
something I've been pushing for a long time, which is, you know,
the cause which has a high market cap.
It should be using, its community pool to invest in new
projects and help bootstrap that men.
You know, I supposed to have been doing has been doing this
for a while. Right.
But we've had, we do these loan swaps, new and stargaze.
You've got to with Axl are, but I think that like, you know, and
that's how I supposed to have been able to build a close
relationships with a lot of these projects and I think the
cost was hog, should like start doing similar things as well.
Usually it's much larger much larger like the economic migrant
now. Okay, so I think that's like
makes a lot of sense in else. But then, you know, things like
interchain scheduler and don't really think that much sense.
You know, we had a panel on TV, I miss it but I'm going to watch
it on the plane. Multiple people have told me was
the most. It was their favorite.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, I just don't know if like, I don't know.
I'm not sure who the customer how The Interchange scheduler
from the cause of stuff is gonna be.
When I think it's going to be more, chains are going to want
to control their own, Henry VIII capture.
And so, it doesn't make sense for osmosis, for example, to
like, use that the Hobbs interchange scheduler.
For example, here, I think this is the schedule is Merely for
Consumer chains, right? On the, how I was even talking
to the neutron key and even they were like, it's an opt-in thing
in there. Like way that we would not
believe, I would read one another.
Yeah. Okay.
But I think the allocation is definitely very interesting.
Also that just Cosmos has a stake in other networks.
What do you think about the inflation?
Monetary policy implementations are proposal at least to be
completely honest. I didn't read that part that I'm
not hook that Lisa dress and I think It creates a revenue
stream for the, for the community pool.
And I think that's super important because there's no, I
think less than a million at home in the community pool once
more. How many, how much customers in
the hospital for like, a lot of the 40 million awesome.
Yeah, so that's crazy, right? That's like 45 million dollars
or 43 and the Hub has 1614 stuff like that.
So I think there needs to be definitely a revenue stream.
I think with that in mind, they also proposed now to have a nine
month. High inflation of item where
some of it goes into the community pool, and then it goes
down. Gradually, I think 10 percent
per month or something like that.
To a floor of 300K item per month which would bring down
inflation. I don't know.
I numbers for like a lot and I think with that in mind, like,
Adam can also layer. We talk about is also a long
time ago by like that room can be the money of Cosmos and I
think monetary policy is a big thing of it about it.
But I think with that in mind and also some of the utilities
that are mentioned I did I just briefly skim through the
governance part. There's also whole government
section in the white paper. I don't know if you read through
that but I think there's a lot of interesting stuff, but I
think this is also stuff that is probably more long-term.
There's some needs to be seen. I think short term, the monetary
policy adjustments are probably the most important thing on
that. Yeah, because yeah, needs to
generate revenue for the pool and also, Be more sound money in
that sense. Yeah.
You think you guys think that other chains like you know, well
as Moses start adopting like some of these tools like the
allocator or reviewing its monetary policy in order to make
it more like, sound money. It was pretty cool.
I want to argue that all specimens are going to be doing
most of these things. You know, we've already been
doing loan swaps. We've been working with the skip
to build Mev systems into the protocol already we patch taking
derivatives for Long time and we did we just called it
Superfluous taking, but it was thinking, there's a form of
taking derivatives, right? And then, yeah.
Interchange security know, we're working towards the mesh so and
that's why do I feel like this is actually stuff that osmosis
has been working on for a while, as well?
Okay, I feel like we, the top version of these things feel
like there's all these are categories, almost like how did
it, maybe how to do steak and Groves how to do, hmm,
allocation system. And like, you know both osmosis
and the Hub have like different flavors up to each one.
And I think People pick which one that they flavors, that make
more sense. Hmm, yeah, no, that's what makes
sense. Yeah.
I think talking to makes white sauce was pretty cool.
There's a yeah, right? Sup, yeah, I think one thing
people don't realize but also cannot mix is that like, you
know, it is actually fixed Kappa.
Yeah, so people like oh, it's this like super inflationary
thing and it's really not me, of course, in the beginning it had
to be because you have to roll it out but that's also why
everybody enjoys crazy aprs, initially, what we needed was a
distribution, we didn't have exactly what you said.
Moses never had any sort of Ico or anything, right?
So we're like, okay, we can Eric, we can do a little bit of
an airdrop to have some initial distribution.
But really, we want, like the airdrop to go to people who are
committed to osmosis right? And how do we, how did we
measure that we were like, okay, well, who's providing liquidity
right? And that's just the way of what
it was was an extended Ico, right?
These super high inflation over the first few years was to do
the initial distribution to the early adopters of the protocol.
So before we wrap up here, what was the sort of highlights?
Let's talk about the legendary stuff that happened this time,
legends that were made. I mean, obviously Jacobs said to
is incredible. I think that also came out
really nice. Like the guy, the guy, I know
this guy for a couple of years to tattoo artist, very nice guy
and he literally, this is last-minute stuff, right?
And he just brought a table, he brought his stuff and then
people just came, right? Right next to the DJ at like 2
a.m. And I sure like I want this
picture, you know, I want this tattoo, it on my neck or
whatever and he just had a piece of paper and then you with a
with a piece of it with a pen, he just wrote over it and it
just made it like free hands. Like, he didn't have real
equipment, by the way, it came out, I think it's incredible.
So, for maybe, for the epicenter listeners, who are not familiar
with this whole story. So, like Jacob, Jacob, hickey,
and who is founder of notional? It's a validator.
Also, like contributed to the ecosystem, Has been talking on
Twitter for some time now that he would get an osmosis tattoo
and maybe some other tattoos and what was your role in like
either organizing this and making this having nothing to
do. You got the tattoo artist?
I mean, of course. Like Jacob said it, I'm like, I
can get it for you and, you know, we got it done.
I think one of the conditions was that he would overtake was
my son and validator said, yeah. And I think on the day a few
hours before it actually happened, so I don't know who
contributed to that, but I think it was just fun to see how the
community is passionate about it.
And, you know, there's nothing in the scene when this happened
like we're downstairs in his club and you guys can go on
Twitter, like, find videos of this, but it was in this club
and there's like a DJ up there. And then, because there was like
this kind of higher spot, right? And he was there in the corner
with this light and it just, it was such an interesting seed.
It felt like, I don't know, some like mob boss, you know, out
there, you know, like, you know, looking over like All of his all
of his subjects is such a cool pools, an incredible picture on
Twitter where he's like, yeah, holding fun on the background
and Ethan Jelena and the tattoo artist, and it's crazy.
But I think the thing we need years and I thought, okay, I
thought it's Jacob and the quizzes are co-founder.
He also wanted to make one but the the tattoo artist told me
that nearly 20 people made a tattoo there.
Wow, and some people got lifetime access to cousin.
Is it to him and he wrote something on Telegram and he
showed it to me and I just said that sure like, yeah, ascended.
And like, yeah, Coop to see the sit next to me and like, we got
approval and I don't know, I don't even know if anybody did
it but some people did get like the kind of Cosmos.
Yeah, hero thing. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Crazy.
But I think this is yeah, the first time also that everyone is
coming together and partying having You're good time.
I think it's also super necessary.
Is after all it's like behind all these behind the Cryptid
Ticker on gecko. There's like people right?
Yeah. And you can see the some people
like techno you can see what's your favorite drinks?
You have full conversations with them?
You can view not had a session with Ethan back, man.
I didn't have one with you as I'm angry about this, as you
promised it to me here for a few months.
I'm salty. Now, it's just cool to like, you
know, really, truly me. Meet and sure.
Again, you've seen the talks you've seen announcements Pines
didn't pump but that's just the surface like what's behind?
This is like all the conversations.
I just talked with them Lynch to know in the hallway and he's
like when they're so cool tooling that we're building and
I'm super excited and Jake is super excited and like just all
the builders and the community coming together and talking
meeting each other building friendships relationships.
I think that's the real value of these of these events.
So really quick, what I need. Two weeks of now.
And yeah, what I need sleep. What's next for you?
Going to take some vacation. I want to stay here for a little
bit, two weeks, probably. And then listen, these
Dominicans are counted upon talking, so close.
Like, I'm just probably gonna go there and then, from there, back
to Lisbon. Yeah.
Will you be in Lisbon like in November, when all the stuff
happening? Yeah, I'll be there till mid
next year for sure. Okay, yeah, cool.
I think we can. I think we say this is a good
good note to end on. Yeah.
Wrapped Us up with. All right, thanks for doing this
guy's. Thank you.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
Yeah. Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. We release new episodes every
week. You can find And subscribe to
the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever
you listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of
the epicenter podcast, go to epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for
a full list of places where you can watch and listen, while
you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get
new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to
interact with us guests or other podcast listeners, you can
Follow us on Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes
helps people find the show and we're always happy to read them
but thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.