1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 Coming off of like FTX, right, and Terra and all that stuff, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,560 right? And just the world just couldn't 3 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:06,280 be worse. There's two sort of ways this 4 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,920 goes. Number one, it was all scam and 5 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,240 it's all going to 0 or #2 If you're actually going to do a 6 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,360 company, now is the best time to do it. 7 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,400 No one's here anymore. So competition is low. 8 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,480 And like there's probably some kind of change that's happened 9 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,400 in the market because usually big events lead to change. 10 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,640 And like I said, that's the job of the founders to find change. 11 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,040 Everyone was trying to take the blockchain, quote UN quote, and 12 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,680 like bring it to Tribefy. Let's do this like JP Morgan 13 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,560 chain, right? Or let's do like a Goldman Sachs 14 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,960 chain or whatever. And I remember thinking like, 15 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,560 and that sounds terrible, you know, why would we do that? 16 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,520 What we really should do is actually bring the real world to 17 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:35,960 crypto. That's one of the main things 18 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,440 we're focused on a plume is making sure that we build the 19 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,640 pipelines and the rails that bring them in in a manner and in 20 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,280 a in a way that benefits US versus just replicating the same 21 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,840 shit. We have auction today on Shane. 22 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,800 Welcome to Epicenter of the show, which talks about the 23 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,760 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 24 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,240 in the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian Kuchu and I'm here 25 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,640 with Christian, who's CEO at Plume. 26 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,880 They're an asset management platform focus in the RWA space 27 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,080 is an L1 that allows issuers to issue RWA's and they have an 28 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,160 interesting yield product. And so we're going to be talking 29 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,520 about real world assets. Is it overinflated the 30 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,920 institutionalization of crypto? And a whole lot of other things. 31 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,720 But first, here's a word from our sponsors this week. 32 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,920 This episode's brought to you by Near AI Cloud Open Clause, one 33 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,600 of the biggest stories in AI right now. 34 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,320 Rapidly, it gained over 200,000 GitHub stars with adoption from 35 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:31,320 Silicon Valley to Beijing. Why? 36 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,480 Because Openclaw makes it easy to create an AI agent that 37 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,600 actually does stuff like manage your emails, browse the web, 38 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,480 schedule appointments, and remember contacts across weeks 39 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:41,760 of interaction. But where? 40 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,880 Do you securely? 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Without data exposure, there's 52 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,480 no hardware to. Manage and no. 53 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,120 Trust assumptions required. You can learn more at near dot 54 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,160 AI. Chris, thanks for joining me. 55 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,000 Thanks for coming on the show. I'd love to chat a little bit 56 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,840 about your background cuz I, you know, you were a founder and 57 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,080 then were in VC and went back to being a founder. 58 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,520 That trajectory, it feels like a little bit unnatural, but I do 59 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,080 like it. What was the impetus for going 60 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,160 back in the Founder's seat after having worked in Vt? 61 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:47,920 Yeah, totally, totally. Thanks for having. 62 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,200 Thanks for having me and looking forward to getting into it all. 63 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,840 So yeah, look, like you said, my background is very simple. 64 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,320 You know, I came out of school and I was mostly just kind of 65 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,360 bouncing around and doing technology stuff, which sort of 66 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,320 manifested in doing like basically doing software 67 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,360 startups and, you know, mostly kind of financial stuff, 68 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,120 meaning, you know, we were doing like invoicing and, you know, 69 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,160 like very exciting, you know, enterprise software. 70 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,200 But it was kind of right on my place, right? 71 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,040 And then from there I went to venture after, right? 72 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,200 So we were managed, you know, sell the company, then take the 73 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,560 public and it was the whole thing and learned a lot about 74 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,120 about that. But then we went to venture and 75 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,440 that's kind of like what you're supposed to do, I guess, right? 76 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,240 Do you sort of like, you know, do do the startup thing? 77 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,320 You get tired and and you're like, hey, look like, let me let 78 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,720 me go do and do the venture thing and and, you know, invest 79 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,080 instead, right, Because it's, you know, seen as like a high 80 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,040 status job. Perhaps, you know, they're sort 81 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,720 of like this, this veneer of like you very like know a lot of 82 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,760 things and you know, and like you get to meet a bunch of 83 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,080 people. What do you think are all true 84 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,520 to some degree, But the truth is like, look, I've been an Angel 85 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,440 best That's how I got to do it. Like I just kind of followed for 86 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:47,760 great founders. I'm not bold enough thing. 87 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:48,960 I'm actually like that smarter things. 88 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,360 And so I was voted just like, you know, writing early days 89 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,480 checks into my friends and like founders that I just thought 90 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,640 were like interesting and doing fun stuff. 91 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,480 And from there, like actually, you know, a bunch of them did 92 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:58,840 really well. And then that's how I sort of 93 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,040 like got sucked into classic ventures and maybe I should go 94 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:02,520 like learn how to do this properly, right. 95 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,600 And turns out it's, you know, you're selling money and and 96 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,280 then it's the same thing no matter where you go, you know, 97 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,840 And so like, that was my lesson from it all. 98 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,320 But like at the venture side of things, basically, I liked it a 99 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,040 lot. I like many aspects of job a 100 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,840 lot, but I also thought a lot of it was just absolute like mind 101 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,760 numbing stuff, you know, because at the end of the day, you sort 102 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,160 of had this like philosophical veneer around those things. 103 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,040 But the truth of it is that like at the end of the, you're 104 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,320 selling money, that's what it really is, right? 105 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,880 The people that need the money, right, you don't want to give it 106 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,440 to, and people that don't need the money you're trying to give 107 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,440 it to, right? And so you're selling cash. 108 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,640 It's very hard to turn your cash more green, right? 109 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,320 And and then someone else's, right? 110 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,240 Like my money was always less green than sequoias. 111 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,440 And, and, and that were paradigms as an example, right? 112 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,240 And so like, you know, that sort of my think at the time was, you 113 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,800 know, one, it is, it's one of two kinds of people in venture, 114 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,080 right? There's people that sort of 115 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:50,640 chase people that get chased, right. 116 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,400 And, you know, I, in some categories, you know, people 117 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,320 would come to me because I sort of knew a lot about the market 118 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:57,360 or whatever. And so that was great. 119 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,520 But it was, it was, it's not quite the same thing as like, 120 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,200 you know, there's certain people I really can suck in all the 121 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,200 deals. And so I was like, look, like 122 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160 the more fundamental path here is to, you know, basically 123 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,440 improve, improve, like your own, your own ability, right? 124 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,400 And that's how you sort of like you to flip the script and, and, 125 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,560 and, you know, progress back down that path. 126 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,800 And so that was really why I was like, look, let's like come back 127 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,520 and, and you know, 1 is like it. I felt like I'd, I'd sort of 128 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,400 like the juice and energy to run it again and to, to run it back 129 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,440 in so many words. And if there's plenty of time to 130 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,240 like get it, write checks and just sit around and do nothing. 131 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,000 And so let's let's, you know, roll the dice again. 132 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,000 So that's that's where I came up to. 133 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,360 No, that's interesting. I mean, I, I also was a founder 134 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,800 and then started AVC fund. And I think there was also when 135 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,760 I, when I started to fund some, some aspect of this veneer and 136 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,000 this kind of high status, very intellectual sort of job. 137 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,640 But like, you know, we have fairly, fairly small fund. 138 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,320 And I found that although it was really great, it is really great 139 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,320 and really interesting to, to talk to founders. 140 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,320 It's, it's a hard, like it's a much harder job than most, I 141 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,000 think think it is because you have to be like fundraising 142 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,520 constantly and that that takes a huge toll on you. 143 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,840 I mean like the trailing and the meeting investors and, you know, 144 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:12,480 you have to talk to 1000 investors for, you know, 10 to 145 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,640 possibly invest in your fund. And, and the other thing that 146 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,760 most people don't realize is like running a fund is a lot of 147 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,240 compliance. And and I find that I know, I 148 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,120 think I think there's actually like a really good business 149 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,800 opportunity here for like all of that to get just automated and 150 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,880 AI like automated. Yeah, yeah, just the fuck out of 151 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,760 and for sure. But for the moment it's like not 152 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:43,880 that well automated and doing that is just a soul sucking work 153 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,080 so. So like you said, running, 154 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,280 running a fund and actually investing are two very different 155 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:49,760 things. I mean, actually running a fund, 156 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,880 like 90% of the dollar is running the fund. 157 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,800 You know, what would you start a fund versus actually investing? 158 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,040 And so you're not really doing any of it, right? 159 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,520 But but, but like they feed into each other. 160 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,560 So you have like trying to invest to help you run like 161 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,480 fundraise, but you're always doing that instead of investing. 162 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,840 So it just ends up being a shit show. 163 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:06,560 So yeah, I get it. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's 164 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,360 certainly resonates with me. And as, as I'm thinking now, you 165 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,160 know, now the funds been deployed and you know, thinking 166 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,920 about what to do next, building something is definitely, 167 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,640 definitely feels more appealing than like starting another fund. 168 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,120 And so at what point did you get in interested in this idea of 169 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,960 putting real world assets? And I'm, I'm, I'm going to, I'm 170 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,000 going to want to deconstruct that term with you later, but 171 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,640 putting real world assets on. Terrible afternoon. 172 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, like it's just assets, 173 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,680 like those are assets and there's rails, you know, like, 174 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,200 you know, we, we didn't reinvent commerce by putting on the 175 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,440 Internet. It's the same products, it's 176 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,920 just different rails. And I and I sort of see real 177 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,400 world assets in the same light where we're just putting assets 178 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,080 on a different, you know, different infrastructure. 179 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,680 I remember it's a buzzword, but yeah. 180 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,080 How how did you get interested in putting treasuries and and 181 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,400 private credit on chain? And what was the genesis story 182 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:02,760 for Plume? Yeah, yeah. 183 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,360 I mean, it was, it was pretty simple. 184 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,760 I mean, we had a, you know, I was, I was, we're coming off of 185 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,880 like FTX, right, and Terra and all that stuff, right. 186 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,240 And just the world just couldn't be worse. 187 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,400 And it was, I remember I was, I was sort of like it was still a 188 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:17,720 nudge at the top, that sort of thing to myself. 189 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,840 There's two ways. There's two sort of ways this 190 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,120 goes. Number one, it was all a scam 191 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,240 and it's all going to 0, right. And like we should just. 192 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,600 And it was, it was fun while it lasted, you know, and there's 193 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,240 that or #2 if you're actually into a company, now is the best 194 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,600 time to do it, right? Because like no one's here 195 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:32,919 anymore. So competition is low. 196 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,039 And like there's probably some kind of change that's happened 197 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:36,919 in the market because usually big events lead to change. 198 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,159 And like I said, that's the job of the founders to find change, 199 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,240 right? And, and ideally the change is 200 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,320 big and positive and that you capture the right way. 201 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,320 But it was, it was very clear to me, like some change is 202 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,400 happening, whether it's change to the downside, the upside is 203 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,280 unclear, right? But at that point, it's like, 204 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,160 you know, it's, it's sort of like the conditions are right to 205 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,920 do something. And I had, I had sort of been in 206 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,120 around, like I looked at a bunch of things in, in, in, in crypt 207 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,960 at the time. I, I thought we thought of doing 208 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,280 BTC stuff and B5 stuff and blah, blah, blah, right. 209 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,640 And BTC at the time was just like, you know, a grand new 210 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:06,960 world, right? Of all the things we could do 211 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,720 with BTC and like run back the sort of D5 playbook on, on 212 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,120 Bitcoin. But, you know, you know, Teddy, 213 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,480 my Cofan and I, we just kept getting pulled back to this idea 214 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,320 that, you know, if there's change happening because of all 215 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,920 this stuff, what is that change, right? 216 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,960 And how would it express itself? Number one? 217 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,120 And the number 2 is, you know, we'd always sort of seen that 218 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,280 like, look, you know, I live like the most of my lifestyle 219 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,160 Unchained and like, you know, we were like very like crypto 220 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,240 native people. And, you know, it just felt very 221 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,000 limited. There was only so much you could 222 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,400 do. It was awesome, everything we 223 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,720 could do. But you, you sort of like 224 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:38,800 contain. There was this the real world 225 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,680 and there was crypto and they're just two separate things at the 226 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:42,360 time, you know, and you couldn't interact with them very much. 227 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,560 And you know, we just sort of felt like there was a the market 228 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:47,280 was changing where those two things were coming together, 229 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,280 right eyed Angel. Listen to a bunch of like R to 230 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,800 be with companies of time ahead of time, right? 231 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,000 And you know, they're all, I think Muslim went to zero 232 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,400 because it was just not the right thing at the right time. 233 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,160 But it's sort of like I was interested in this idea of like 234 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,280 onboarding if we get new things that and growing crypto, right? 235 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,240 And Teddy was AB and B at the time, sort of like doing a bunch 236 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,400 of BD where he's AB and B chain. And that was like a big thing 237 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,960 for them as well, right? And so both of us were sort of 238 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,120 like centered around this idea of growing crypto, right? 239 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,640 It's sort of like if, if all we're doing here is like hyper 240 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,640 gambling on shitters, it's not a bad thing, but it seems like an 241 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,600 underutilization of what it should be and what we could do 242 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,880 with it. And you know, if there's change 243 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,680 now, it could be the right moment where these pieces come 244 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:22,920 together where you could actually bring real things here, 245 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,640 right? And our view at the time, which 246 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,320 I think was different than everyone else's, right? 247 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,400 And everyone was told, everyone told us we were like very stupid 248 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,440 at the time to do to think about this was everyone. 249 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,840 Everyone is super dismissant for RWS at the time, right? 250 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,440 They're sort of like, this is not a real thing. 251 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,000 You know, nobody really cares, you know, blah, blah, blah, 252 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,080 right? And we can't tell you every, 253 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,600 every I've, I've met everyone out there, nobody cares, right? 254 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,240 Except, except a few folks that, that NF backing us. 255 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,000 But there was that. And then #2 is the people that 256 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,280 did get it were hypertrad focused, right? 257 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,440 They were very like, you know, you got to be, you know, Goldman 258 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,000 bankers suit compliance, private chain, blah, blah, blah, right? 259 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,080 And we were the only people at the time to be very like, I 260 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,520 think still crypto, right? Our view was that I don't think 261 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,080 of these as like real world assets and, and, and, and 262 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,400 crypto. These are, like you said to me, 263 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:11,840 they're all the same thing. They're just assets. 264 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,920 I just want to swap between these things that I don't see a 265 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,160 distinction from these two worlds. 266 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,800 Meaning I used to always say when the world's up, right? 267 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,800 I want to be full port fart coin, right? 268 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,280 Like that's just the reality of things. 269 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,720 And when things go down, I probably rotate the T-bills, 270 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,480 right? But but it's the same, it's the 271 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,080 same type of thing, right? They're both. 272 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,200 You can do both at the same time. 273 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:30,520 And that was our view, which is like that. 274 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:31,720 Isn't this like I should only do crypto. 275 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,520 I should only do it. We should have both exist in the 276 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,640 same dimension, right? And that was it. 277 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,200 And we have felt that sort of everyone was trying to take the 278 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,720 blockchain, quote UN quote and like bring it to Tradfi and 279 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:42,840 bring it to the real world, right? 280 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,840 Let's like, let's do this like JP Morgan chain, right? 281 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,000 Or let's do like a Goldman Sachs chain or whatever. 282 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,720 And I remember thinking like, this is terrible, you know, why 283 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,960 would we do that? And what we really should do is 284 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,120 actually bring the real world to crypto, which is that you And it 285 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,560 felt like to me there was a real demand for that, for real demand 286 00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:58,840 for it. It just wasn't expressed very 287 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,800 well because all the people doing hard was the time were 288 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,560 like trad people who didn't understand crypto. 289 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,160 So they would come to this thing with a heavy KYC stuff for 290 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,960 mission chains. You know, there's no 291 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,520 interoperability, you can't use it, right? 292 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,760 But you could see that like the, the appetite for real world 293 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,840 assets was already there to express itself in different 294 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,240 ways. We always looked at the stable 295 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,400 coin, right, as the inspiration for pulling, which is like the 296 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,880 stable coin is it's not a real world asset, it's just crypto, 297 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,400 right? Even though it is the original 298 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,200 real world asset and the only one that actually matters to 299 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,520 that, right? And it's because the stable 300 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,680 coin, it just disappears into into the fabric of crypto. 301 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:32,400 You don't need to think about the fact there's anything over 302 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,800 the hood, right? Well, Tether for years we had no 303 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:34,960 idea there was anything under the hood. 304 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,880 Doesn't even matter. You know, the idea that it could 305 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,360 be possibly backed by a dollar was enough, you know, for us to 306 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,960 like full port Tether, right? And so this idea, everyone 307 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,880 always says, well, we just really want to know what it's 308 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,080 not ownership, it's about the plastic. 309 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,080 It's not about any of those things. 310 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,800 It's about the usability, It's about the experience. 311 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,920 It's about solving a problem for the market that's here today, 312 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,440 which is cryptonatives, right? And starting with that and 313 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,760 building on top of that. And so that was kind of the 314 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,080 focus for us, which is like, you know, to really focus and bring 315 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,440 this like, you know, we call the art of EFI, which is, you know, 316 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,840 you know, admittedly it's not my favorite phrase it either. 317 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,240 But you know, it's this idea that like, you know, you should 318 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,840 be able to kind of move in and around between Rd. assets and 319 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,600 crypto. You should be able to use these 320 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,080 Rd. assets just as you would use crypto, just like the stable 321 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:12,120 point, right? And there should be no 322 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,200 distinction about what's going on. 323 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,160 And we build the rails, the tool and the infrastructure to 324 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,880 automate all of that stuff, right? 325 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:18,920 And make that very easy and seamless to use. 326 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,680 And that's kind of where like Plume came to be. 327 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:22,200 It's where Nest came to be, right? 328 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,720 And and why we are why we do things to what we are today. 329 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,800 So look, looking at the RWA space today, what is the what, 330 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,240 what are the big categories of sort of like yield generating 331 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,000 assets that exist on chain where, where is most of the 332 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,200 liquidity going? Is it like T-bills, a private 333 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,880 credit, you know, and private credit, you know, falls within 334 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,640 like several different categories. 335 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,120 Is it like rare earth metals or you know, other types of 336 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,840 commodities? What what's the, what's the, 337 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,280 well, the kind of, you know, landscape look like. 338 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,920 Yes, so I was doing this question a lot and I think I 339 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:01,800 always think the, the, the answer actually is less about 340 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,280 the asset itself and it's more about who's here and what the 341 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,880 sentiment and what the, and what is the mood at the time, right. 342 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,080 And the reason I say this because that's going to change 343 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,840 over time as more people come to crypto and the sort of types of 344 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,560 people come and change, the ads will change, right? 345 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,520 Like, you know, in crypto today, it's not like we already have we 346 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,880 just have A1 user. It's not just that the, the, 347 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,080 the, the, the maybe like the, the like serial apron who just 348 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,960 like, you know, apes a bunch of memes and that's, you know, we 349 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,240 have many different profiles of users. 350 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,080 You've got the BTC holders bear buy and hold. 351 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,000 You've got D5 farmers. You've got like payments type 352 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,880 people. You have privacy folks, right? 353 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,200 You have a lot of types of people. 354 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,960 And So what asset is is popular right now is 100% dependent on 355 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,600 what is in who's here, right? And right now, right? 356 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,640 If you look at the market today, you know, people think and 357 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,480 people talk about the institutions are here like in 358 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,160 trad fights coming. It's all nonsense, right? 359 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,680 The market here right now is 99.9% crypto people still, 360 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,920 right? And so that is so, so that's 361 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,440 like the first thing. So who is here? 362 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,640 And then what is the mood at the time, right? 363 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,160 And what's going on? Because crypto people are still 364 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,480 crypto native. So that's the first thing, 365 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,120 right? And so where do they actually go 366 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,080 into these things right now is, you know, the truth is if you go 367 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,800 around and ask people what are the base, they hold it 368 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,960 guaranteed like 90%. Ninety fives in the room is none 369 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280 of these things, right, right, because people don't actually 370 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,400 use these things today. And so the market for these 371 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,840 assets, the biggest one is T-bills right now, right? 372 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,360 And T-bills, you know, it's not even a user front, a user facing 373 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,640 product, right? The T bill right now is a 374 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,400 foundation product, right? That's like 90% of what the T 375 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,280 bill is, right? You go to a big foundation and 376 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,280 then they ape like, you know, 10 or 20 or 3050 or whatever into a 377 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,600 set of money into money market fund and they earn on that, 378 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,840 right? But these are inaccessible to 379 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,400 regular people, right? This is not what crypto retail 380 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,200 is using, right? The same goes for private 381 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,640 credit. People talk about private credit 382 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,800 as a thing. I mean, I'll ask you, did you 383 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,200 hold any private credit like on chain? 384 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,760 No. Exactly, exactly right. 385 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,560 And and I guess you don't hold Biddle, you don't hold all USG, 386 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:57,920 you don't hold any of these things, right. 387 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,600 And it's not even hard to say if you just go to RBDS and look at 388 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,080 this user stats for these things, it's you know, all these 389 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,840 are sub 100 user accounts at products, right? 390 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,200 And so, so like there's sort of this like fixation now and 391 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,800 moving up and away from T-bills into this next category, which 392 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,000 is as people became more comfortable with the on chain T 393 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,800 bill right now, they want to do what you normally do in this 394 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,560 world, right? Which chase more yield And 395 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,880 people sort of see, oh, where's their yield? 396 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,280 Oh, the, the private credit yield is higher than T-bills. 397 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,240 So let's go down the private credit roads, right? 398 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,280 Well, people don't understand this private credit is risky, 399 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:31,920 right? And, and it's a longer duration 400 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,760 and it doesn't work at D5 very well for many reasons. 401 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,600 But like that's kind of where the direction energy is going 402 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,080 right now. But I would say there's two, 403 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,000 there's two layers to it. 1 is what people are saying and what 404 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,000 have been what like a sort of thin veneer of liquidity appears 405 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,520 to be doing. No, people are actually doing 406 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,080 right. And the reality is people are 407 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,400 not doing any of this stuff, right. 408 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,560 People are not really doing anything. 409 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,600 If you want to talk about like what's the real world actually 410 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,520 using, I think the only two things that actually sort of 411 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,000 have real usage right now is still Usde, right and Athena, 412 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,880 right? That to me is still like a very 413 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,800 clear, a clear sort of like RWA that has real adoption, real 414 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,280 usage. I think Maple and syrup is 415 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,800 another one, right? You know, that's our CWCCO like 416 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,000 this. That's another one that like 417 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,560 people actually can use them by hold because integrate Pendle, 418 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,079 it's loot and like it's actually backed by real things. 419 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,280 There's a lot of other ones that sort of like claim to be RWA 420 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,200 that have nothing back in it right now that are sort of like, 421 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,000 you know, that are promises for the future. 422 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,400 Many of them may work with them on who knows, but that's kind of 423 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,359 what that's what's really going on right now, right. 424 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,760 So when people talk about tebos and private retinol, they point 425 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,119 to these numbers. It's it's great and I'm glad 426 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,920 it's happening. I think it is is happening, but 427 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,480 like where's there any and what is the energy actually going? 428 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:33,760 It's actually in none of those places. 429 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,640 And so beyond T-bills like you know, if you project out now 430 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:48,200 that we have like this falls of institutional push for crypto or 431 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,520 cryptos going institution institutions want to come on 432 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,480 chain. What what do you think is the 433 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,000 part of sort of like the Tradfi, you know, if we stick within 434 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,600 this framework that it's just like assets on like on rails and 435 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,960 we're just switching out the rails. 436 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:10,320 Which types of trad FI assets are best suited for sort of 437 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,920 crypto rails or could benefit the most from crypto rails in 438 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,240 terms of in probability, you know sort of transfer it, sort 439 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:22,360 of swapping times, access to markets, etcetera. 440 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,680 Like where is the biggest innovation coming from in the 441 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,520 future? So there's two ways to look at 442 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,040 this question. Number one is which assets going 443 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,200 to like what things are going to benefit most by like getting 444 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,920 swapped on like basically moving from like sort of tribe rails to 445 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,520 crypto rails, right. And the, and the answer is like 446 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,440 almost all of them, right? Like a lot of these assets are 447 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960 going to be materially better on shame than not, right? 448 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,760 I talked to the biggest institution going all the time, 449 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:44,800 right? And I was on with one of the 450 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,760 biggest asset managers yesterday and they're sort of explained to 451 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,560 me what they do and how they run this thing today. 452 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,240 And just purely the forget the efficiency and like the process 453 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,360 type stuff. Just that pure cost of doing 454 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:58,960 things the way it is is 10's and hundreds of millions of dollars 455 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,080 for just like 'cause somebody just automated in two seconds on 456 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,960 share, right? And and with sort of the same 457 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,840 level of, of like, you know, of, of trust rabbits, right? 458 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,320 So I think the, a lot of these assets are going to be great on 459 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,920 chain and most of them are going to benefit. 460 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,640 Now, the reality though, is that just because it's better on 461 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,680 chain doesn't mean the work on chain, right? 462 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,760 We've run this sort of STORWA story many times in crypto, 463 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,840 right? And the reason why hasn't taken 464 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,760 off before is because, you know, people were a little bit too 465 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,560 fixated on which asset is going to improve by being on chain 466 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,520 without thinking about the other side, right? 467 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,880 You know, Plume, we've always been mostly focused on the 468 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,200 demand side of things, which I actually don't care about the 469 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,040 asset. The asset will change over time. 470 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,360 What matters is demand. What do people actually want 471 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,320 right now, right? And if we go back to that 472 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,480 question, the question is what ass is going to do on chain 473 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,200 right now? You know, you have to look at 474 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,840 like, what is the what is the comp set on chain, right? 475 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,120 What, what, what, what do people doing right now on chain? 476 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,080 And like, what is going to be better than that? 477 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,400 Right on chain today, right. You're, you know, you can guess 478 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,560 sort of like 6 to 8% APY, right, in a pretty Safeway without a 479 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,320 bunch of looping, just running some basic stuff, right. 480 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,240 And even when USD was hot, you could get twenty 30s, right? 481 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,640 And that's before looping and before a bunch of stuff before 482 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,480 you Pendle it up and blah, blah, blah, right. 483 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,240 And so you could really get to, you know, really meaningful AP 484 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:20,920 wise 30-40 fifties right now. Were they real? 485 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,760 What they stable and all that, that's a different question, 486 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,720 right, But that's sort of the comparison set. 487 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,880 And so then you compare to that. The question is what triad 488 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,920 assets actually compete with that, right. 489 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,840 And the question and the answer is not very many, right. 490 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,400 Where you mean is that though? Because is, is is that though, 491 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,520 because it's harder to like to do composability with Triadfi 492 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,720 than it is in crypto. Like in crypto, you can create a 493 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,400 contract loop stuff. I mean, there's infrastructure 494 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,040 to do this. Whereas like, if you want to do 495 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,440 that in Triadfi, you got to like, you go to your broker or 496 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,720 get the asset and then, you know, borrow against it. 497 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,840 And it's it's, it's a lot of pushing paper probably and 498 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,760 rather than just pushing contract code. 499 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,320 Yes and no, that is part of the problem. 500 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:01,720 It's actually not the real bottleneck. 501 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,280 The real bottleneck is the assets in Shradfight are not 502 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,720 suitable for looping and not suitable for composability. 503 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,720 So just the idea that you can move them around doesn't do 504 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,320 anything, right? Because the end of the day, if 505 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,200 you think, if you look at like composability, composability, it 506 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,520 means a lot of things. But really at this point in the 507 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,320 market, composability means looping, right? 508 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,480 That's like that's like what everyone does in D5 this point, 509 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,160 right? And if you look at looping, 510 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,040 right, looping has a couple key attributes that really matter. 511 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,840 But number one is you have to have an APY that is above the 512 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,280 borrow rate, right? Like that's the first thing that 513 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,120 matters, right? If you are borrowing money. 514 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,520 And that's why when everyone talks to RW looping and 515 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,960 borrowing and looping T-bills, it drives me nuts because the 516 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,560 borrow rate is 8%, right? So you have to pay 8% to borrow 517 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,160 money and they and to so then borrow money 8% to buy something 518 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,200 that yields 5% doesn't make sense. 519 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,480 It doesn't work, right? 8 is more than five very simple, 520 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,200 right? And so that's one thing, right? 521 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,560 The second piece run looping is you need, you need rapid pricing 522 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,920 updates because you're always trying to figure, are you in the 523 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,240 money? Are you not in the money, right? 524 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,960 You need the yield to come back very quickly, right? 525 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,400 Because you will need to unwind up and down very fast. 526 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,320 Private credit, most of these assets are like we work with a 527 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,960 bunch that are custom made. So I have assets on Plume that 528 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,920 are down to seven day duration, right? 529 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,040 Very short. But your average private credit 530 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,600 asset is 3 months at the minimum, right? 531 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,280 Most of these things are one to two to three years, right? 532 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,320 And so you can't loop an asset where you put money in and it 533 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,480 just doesn't come out for a year because there's no unwinding, 534 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,960 right? And so that's the thing around 535 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,560 these assets. It's like the reason why there's 536 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,000 like a, a lack of like, you know, real adoption is not the 537 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,320 fact that it's inefficient from a, from a, from like a 538 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,720 processing standpoint. It's the fact the asset at a 539 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,640 fundamental level does not fit into the use case that the 540 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,800 market today wants on chain. That makes sense. 541 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:43,640 Yeah. No, I think that makes sense. 542 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,400 I mean, I yeah, I think, you know, if you have an asset, I 543 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,400 hadn't consider that reason. If you have an asset where time 544 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,360 to liquidity is super long right like like press spread of debt, 545 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:59,640 that's very hard to loop. It's not possible. 546 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:01,800 It's, I mean, yeah, it's not possible. 547 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,240 You, you, yeah, you can't. I mean, you, you can, but you're 548 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,160 like your, your risk. You'd have to be like very over 549 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,600 collateralized right to make sure that you you don't get 550 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,000 liquidated. So, you know, in the case of, 551 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,120 you know, just to kind of like look at I'm looking at Nest 552 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:16,640 here. You know, there's like, you 553 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,000 know, you have Nest Alpha here that has a seven day redemption. 554 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,200 How do you make that possible? Like how do you take credit card 555 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,120 receivable financing and get that time to redemption down to 556 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,000 seven days? Totally, Yeah, I mean, and This 557 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,120 is why I I think less about assets and more about the like 558 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,240 the the API and like what the dimensions of the asset are, 559 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,800 right. You have to do a composite 560 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,200 vault. That's what Nest Alpha is. 561 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,520 So right, So Nest today is one of our fault is is our like 562 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,320 yield distribution product. So through Nest we make it. 563 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,400 This is the easiest place in crypto to take stable coins and 564 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,960 turn them into real yield, right? 565 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,080 That's the whole point. And so whereas most things in 566 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,480 crypto that that come to RW as have heavy things like minimum 567 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,760 time, minimum like deposit amounts, right? 568 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,880 Like there's a bunch of funds out there, T bill funds 569 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,560 $5,000,000 minimums. So that's inaccessible to 99% of 570 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,680 people right there, right? You have to be KYCTYB dot wazoo, 571 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:07,720 right? And like, you know, your 572 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,680 redemption is, you know, even for T bill, sometimes it's 573 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,680 quarterly or monthly. It's it should be fast. 574 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,200 It's not right. And so Nest is a place where you 575 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,480 can come and take your staples, deposit into these balls and 576 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,600 immediately get RDB yield. And from there, the way we do 577 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,680 that and, and we make those receipt tokens composable and 578 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,360 loopholes, you can go into Morpho and loop again, these 579 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:27,720 things get extra exposure and all that stuff. 580 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,320 The way to do that though, is through a composite vault where 581 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,160 you're blending many things together to improve the contours 582 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,800 of that asset at the end of the day, right? 583 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,760 And so that's why we can get higher, higher, higher 584 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,600 liquidity, right? Because you have a bunch of 585 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,000 short duration assets in there, right? 586 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,000 But also you have a bunch of longer duration to have higher 587 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,920 yield that bounces things out and also mitigate the risk. 588 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,480 So this way your profile is done a certain way and we also have 589 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,920 to balance out which assets can price fast enough. 590 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,320 So you can real time adjust that so you can loop against these 591 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,040 things, right? And so that's where it is today. 592 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,120 So Nest Alpha today is a collection of many things. 593 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240 We have, we have credit card receivables, right, Brazil ones, 594 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,000 we have oil in there, right? So we have a fund that does oil, 595 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,600 right. The great thing about oil is 596 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,800 very simple, right? You, you dig a hole in the 597 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,760 ground and, and money comes out, right? 598 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,120 And, and, and it's as simple as that, right? 599 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,520 And so being able to use that in commercial credit card 600 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,160 receivables, having some tables, we have some yield bearing ETFs 601 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:16,760 in there, right? They're also super liquid, 602 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,200 right? And so balancing all these 603 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,840 things out, you get a nice blended APY that's above the 604 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,560 hurdle rate, right, of 8%. You have good liquidity against 605 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,360 it and you have good exposure. So you risk time to one thing is 606 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:28,840 also much more diminished, right? 607 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,360 And so that's like how we do it with, with, with, with oil with 608 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:36,040 Nest offer today. So I think like one of the 609 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,840 things that we're touching at here is that like, you know, 610 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:46,160 crypto is a highly leveraged, it'll highly leverage ecosystem. 611 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,320 Like a lot of the yield in crypto comes from leverage, but 612 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,360 also carries like a ton of risk. And, you know, in in recent 613 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:58,360 months, there's been like yet another on your major 614 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:01,520 unleveraging event. Yeah, in, in October. 615 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,040 And before that there was like another big one like, you know, 616 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,000 in in August of the year before there's like there's these 617 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,400 unleveraging crises that happen in crypto like every 12 to 18 618 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,640 months. Yeah. 619 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,360 And the effects of that is like it concentrates the quid within, 620 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,600 you know, like very large institutions that are like 621 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,600 crypto native institutions. It also, I think has the effect 622 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,680 of creating a lot of bad press for the, for the crypto space 623 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,120 and sort of make people sort of anxious because people don't 624 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,320 understand, right, that they just think like, oh, crypto's 625 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,360 down, like it must be shit, right? 626 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:36,720 It's just that, you know, people were over leveraged and they got 627 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,800 liquidated. So, you know, there's a couple 628 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,840 of things here that I want to touch on, but like 1 is, you 629 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,080 know, is that sustainable? Is it sustainable for crypto if 630 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,640 it wants to become, you know, sort of like an institutional, a 631 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,000 place where institutions can come? 632 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,440 Can, you know, can crypto native institutions continue to operate 633 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,520 with this like high leverage mindset of, of generating more 634 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,800 yield with more and more risk and and attract those 635 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,000 institutions? And the other thing, and maybe 636 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,240 we can talk about this sort of in the second part, is that, you 637 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,240 know, does the curator model work long term? 638 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,640 Because I think the question of curators in, in, in, in the last 639 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,640 six months have suffered huge reputational damage for having 640 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,320 had assets in their portfolios in their in their strategies 641 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,840 that were not high quality assets. 642 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,880 And there there's a lot of true transparency issues there that I 643 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,120 think have not been properly sort of addressed. 644 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,600 And you know, hopefully really get dressed over time. 645 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,840 But yeah, just your your thoughts on like over leveraging 646 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,880 and like, are we putting too much trust in curators? 647 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,280 And you know, do they deserve our trust, especially when AI 648 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,640 right, I think, especially when AI, I think can probably do a 649 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,240 lot better job long term than, you know, individuals for sure. 650 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,400 It is. Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean a lot to 651 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,360 talk about curators because I do think that it's like it's 652 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:57,320 insane. Some of the stuff's going on 653 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,400 there. But you know, going into maybe 654 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,560 starting off the first point leverage, I I think maybe just 655 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,000 maybe to make sure I'm like answer the question is like the 656 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,280 question is like, is leverage good or bad basically right. 657 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,960 And and does it basically, you know, by engaging in too much 658 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,840 because to scare away some of the new stuff coming in that 659 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,560 could be beneficial to us? All right, the institutional 660 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,840 stuff in so many words, kind of yes and no, right. 661 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,120 And I don't mean to give sort of like in between answer in the 662 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,440 sense that, you know, you can't stop people from doing what they 663 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,600 want to do, right at the end of the day, right? 664 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,120 And so the is the leverage good or bad is almost, in my opinion, 665 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,920 like, you know, a question without an answer because it's 666 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,880 going to happen no matter what at this point. 667 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,280 Like the cat's out the bag. You know, you can't unring that 668 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,240 bell, right? And, and it's a thing, right? 669 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,320 And, and, and to be honest, it's great when it's done correctly, 670 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,200 right? And that's the nature of an open 671 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,240 market. That shit's nuts, you know, And 672 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,120 like, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but things 673 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,240 move. The ball continues to move 674 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,040 forward, right? And, and that's just the, the, 675 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,920 the sort of nature of, of innovation change. 676 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,240 So I, I'm like positive all that. 677 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,160 I think leverage is, is generally a good thing. 678 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,040 It just like it can manifest in strange ways. 679 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,520 Sometimes it do hurt us here and there, right? 680 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,880 So there's that. I, the second question is that 681 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,080 is it like good and bad for this? 682 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,560 Just scare them away? It certainly does to some 683 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,560 degree, right? Like it's, it's impossible to 684 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,400 look at like FTX and maybe like the terrorist stuff, right? 685 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,680 Or even 1010 or stream or whatever, right. 686 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,360 And think that was good for us, you know, like it was definitely 687 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,560 looking that negative, you know, like it definitely scared people 688 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,560 off and like even reputationally small things like it just 689 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,320 there's, there's still a bad taste in people's mouth in FTX 690 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,960 right today, even though it's almost nothing to do that we're 691 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,840 talking anymore. But the IT doesn't really affect 692 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,240 us. I don't think it does at all 693 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,640 from what's happening at this point. 694 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,640 The institutional side of things is not really they don't they 695 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,360 don't, they don't see crypto the same what we do at all, right? 696 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,880 And I think that's also one of the sort of fouls is the RWA 697 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,160 stuff right now is people think that the institutions are coming 698 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,520 and it's going to interact with us, right. 699 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,800 And it has something to do with crypto names. 700 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,040 It has nothing to do with us is the real answer, right? 701 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,800 That's one of the main things we are focused on a plume is making 702 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,920 sure that we build the the sort of like pipelines and the rails 703 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,480 that bring them in, in a manner and in a in a way that benefits 704 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,760 US, right, versus just replicating the same shit we 705 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,320 have off chain today on chain, right, which is exactly what's 706 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,840 happening right now in many places, right? 707 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,760 And I don't think it's the worst thing in the world, right? 708 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,480 But it's also not amazing, right, to very literally do the 709 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,560 exact same name before, right and bring it here. 710 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,800 What's the what's the point, right? 711 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,880 And permissions that private this thing up like there's the 712 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,720 it's it's the same thing. And all the benefits of the 713 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,240 officially accrue back to the red seekers, right? 714 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,480 Not to us and not to the, not to an open ecosystem. 715 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,960 That's most of what's going on today. 716 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,040 And so it, you know, that means what that does mean, I guess is 717 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440 like all of a sudden it's happening in crypto land, right? 718 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,240 They just don't even see, don't care. 719 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,160 It doesn't matter, right? They're they're coming and doing 720 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,680 the thing regardless. The only thing they see around 721 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,800 crypto is a stable coin. That's like, that's like the 722 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,360 main thing to think about. Everything else that we deal 723 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,640 with is irrelevant for the most part. 724 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,840 And so they don't in actuality, I don't think it has any 725 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,360 negative effect towards us. And I think that the bigger 726 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,320 negative effect is can we, can we get our shit together in so 727 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,720 many words, right as an industry to make sure that we have we 728 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,280 maintain ball control right as we move forward, right? 729 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,240 I do think decentralization, permission, less open 730 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,520 composability are all important principles of being in crypto 731 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,120 and like ease, I think we were talking about earlier, you can 732 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,280 see those things beginning to beginning to fade a little bit, 733 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,200 right and beginning to take a backseat to some of the things 734 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,280 that we were the riding before centralization, right? 735 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,080 And, and intermediaries and all these things right. 736 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,840 And it's because everyone's down bat and we're in search of a new 737 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,080 search of like a new daddy. Basically, we need someone to 738 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,400 come save us. And so you know, we're willing 739 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,720 to take anyone, but we're sort of letting the fox in into the 740 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,840 hen house, I guess is the is the is the is the is the way I would 741 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,920 say it. And so I think it's on us to 742 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,360 make sure we do it right, because is, is genuinely better, 743 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,720 right? And, and more importantly, it 744 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,440 would just be a massively missed opportunity to like go down this 745 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,160 way and just, and just blow it. Basically, we have an 746 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,280 opportunity to change the entire nature of the financial 747 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,920 ecosystem, right? And, and build a singular global 748 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,560 market around the world that's open, composable to anyone, 749 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,240 anytime, right? It's incredibly powerful stuff. 750 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,200 And, and we have a chance to do it now. 751 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,320 And if we just literally do the same thing as last time we've 752 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,720 got it, we're going to have blown it, right? 753 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,120 And, and so that to me is like the, the, the comment there. 754 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,960 And so I guess, you know, as it relates to like maybe the 755 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,040 curator side of things, I, I think the curator stuff, like 756 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,240 overall, I think I'm still very positive on curators and I think 757 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,680 the curator model is essential and critical, right? 758 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,440 I think it's the same thing as leverage. 759 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,120 People can do what they don't want to do, right? 760 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,040 And like, you know, unfortunately, like the nature 761 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,840 of it being an open world is you're going to have some 762 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,800 curators that are, that are just terrible, right? 763 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,200 I know some that are great and over time the best ones will 764 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,640 survive and do their thing and, and they'll, they'll deserve our 765 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:46,600 trust. The other ones won't. 766 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,080 But you know, as much as you want to blame the curators and 767 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,680 as much as I've let the cures for a lot of things that 768 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,880 happened, it's also on us, right? 769 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,080 At the end of the day, right? The curator to me is almost 770 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,720 just, it's a mirror, right? People didn't care about risk. 771 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,880 People just wanted the highest number, right? 772 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,840 And so the cure delivered what people wanted, which is here's 773 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,080 the highest API number and that and it came right back to them, 774 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,920 you know, and so. While you're the drug pusher, 775 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,400 man. Exactly. 776 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,160 You know like, you know you. Want the yield? 777 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,960 You want that good yield? Here it is. 778 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,320 Here it is. Exactly. 779 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,200 At the end of the day, you know, they might be dealing, but like 780 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,160 we're buying it still, you know, And that's the reality, you 781 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,760 know, and so, you know, I, I think it'll all get sort of 782 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,720 look, in the real world, we have curators, they're called, 783 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,600 they're called financial advisors and asset managers, you 784 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,280 know, like, and like, you know, they're the same thing, you 785 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,920 know, and so I think there's just, there's precedent that it 786 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,720 works today and it's required and we need it right now. 787 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,120 Whether those cures are humans or AI, that's a different 788 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,760 question. And I do think they, I think 789 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,760 it's very I we're working on a bunch of stuff out there too, 790 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,280 right, where you can just have a machine, right, to be your 791 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,240 curator, quote UN quote, right, and, and be your asset manager. 792 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,400 I think there's a lot to that as well. 793 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,600 So, you know, I think we're pretty far off today, you know, 794 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,840 from from that in reality. But I think it's like almost 795 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,960 certainly going to happen very soon. 796 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,280 Yeah, yeah, I know. I think like, yeah, yeah, I 797 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,440 think you're right that, you know, people are going to do 798 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:03,400 what they want to do. I guess. 799 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:10,159 What did 1010 reveal about curators that moving forward, 800 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:16,000 you know, sensible curators, may you know, the industry is all 801 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,679 about sort of, you know, there's a lot of self regulation and 802 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,639 standards that build over time and we always like learn from 803 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:24,199 mistakes and then, you know, and. 804 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,719 Then repeat them. Most they repeat them, but we 805 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,560 make different mistakes. But I think I think there is 806 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,080 possibly like some lessons, but were there any sort of tangible 807 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,000 lessons you think that at least from from the perspective of 808 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,480 like new curators coming in sort of integrated now and are 809 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,480 popping the bar, you know, raising the standards for for 810 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,760 how they how they how they do their work. 811 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,360 You know the honest answer. Or or is it just nothing's 812 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,080 changed? The honest answer I will tell 813 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,640 you is no, right now I'm still hopeful. 814 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,720 Look, I think you'll find that I'm like hyper cynical about 815 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,440 everything, but I'm also like very hopeful and optimistic for 816 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:03,960 everything. I think the real on the ground 817 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,800 is, no, I have not seen any material change, right? 818 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,120 And, you know, I think you'd be surprised. 819 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,240 I mean, we talked to everybody out there. 820 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,960 We know them all. I'm like, you know, some of the 821 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,280 quote UN quote biggest, like best curators out there have 822 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,640 like, you know, are curating assets they really don't know 823 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,600 anything about and, and doing very dangerous things with them. 824 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,640 You know, and, and that's that's a thing today. 825 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,480 And like I've, I've we've gone and explained it to them and 826 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:26,360 they come back. Wow, you're right. 827 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,520 Like how do we get out of this or what we do? 828 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,040 I'm going to do this. I don't know, I told you all to 829 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,480 do with. And so like, and that was before 830 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,000 all the 1010 stuff. I mean, I tweeted about this 831 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,280 months ago, like before I was like, look, the the primary 832 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,040 thing right now is everyone is calling things stable from it's 833 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,320 not right. And people are creating these 834 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,560 like levered vaults that they, they, they are claiming you risk 835 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,000 free 1 than not, you know, and just by packaging everything 836 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,160 into a stable point, people begin to think that, oh, you can 837 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,760 just do anything. It's all stable and save and 838 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,920 it's not and it's fine. It's that it's not, you just 839 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,480 can't sell it as a stable asset. So you can't sell it as, as a 840 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,840 risk free thing, you know, And so that, that that has happened, 841 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,040 that it's cooled off a little bit, mostly because the quitter 842 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,920 is just dried up and the ecosystem sucks and everyone's 843 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,840 mad right now and everything just is awful, right. 844 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,680 So it's more reflection of that versus what I think of versus 845 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,760 like fundamental change, right? And like an improvement, right. 846 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,520 So I see less of the nonsense now. 847 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,760 But I don't think it's a reflection of learnings. 848 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,320 It's a reflection of everyone's. Everyone's like down bad. 849 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,720 There's nothing to do. So we're not doing anything. 850 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,840 So we'll see when the mark comes back is does it, does it change 851 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,200 or not? Yeah, let's talk about like 852 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,880 Plume a little bit and why did you build an L1 to do RW as when 853 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,920 there's like lots of perfectly good L ones out there? 854 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,920 What was the the thesis around building essentially like an app 855 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,400 chain to do RWA's? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's 856 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,480 definitely. But also from a product 857 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,840 perspective, yeah. Totally, totally. 858 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,880 And and it's been evolving thing and I don't think we did the 859 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,960 best job of explaining it like we had never set out to build a 860 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,160 chain. Maybe I'll start with that, 861 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,800 right. The the job was always to grow 862 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,360 crypto and that's what we wanted to do. 863 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,080 And originally we had started off building just a classic 864 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,760 tokenization engine, right? Let's just do tokenization. 865 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,680 We'll take assets, we'll bring them on chain and we'll we'll 866 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,960 we'll send them anywhere. Don't I don't care, right? 867 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,760 You go to base and Seoul ETH may that doesn't matter, right? 868 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,720 We'll send them to wherever they got to be And like we'll just be 869 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,480 a modern new version of this thing that's easy to use, right? 870 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:14,480 Because we've gone through the tokenization browser ourselves 871 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,680 and we're like doing research and realized, wow, it can take 872 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,120 like 2 years to do this to do it right, right. 873 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,040 And it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. 874 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,560 So immediately 90 was in the market is priced out of doing 875 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,400 any tokenization. So we got to 1st fix that thing, 876 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,000 right. What we realized very quickly 877 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,360 though, was that, you know, basically if you tokenizing 878 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,360 things wasn't an actual problem, meaning it sucked, but it wasn't 879 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,800 a bottleneck. The problem was once you 880 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,200 tokenized an asset on the other side, there was no one to buy it 881 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,800 and no one to use. There's nothing to do with it, 882 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,960 right? And so, you know, as we began 883 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,040 pulling that third to realize there's a two things you had to 884 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,040 not only figure out how to tokenize the asset, you had to 885 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,280 deliver it in a, in a mechanism which someone could take it and 886 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,120 use it. And the only way to do that is 887 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520 you had to then build a community around this thing. 888 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,200 So there are people on the other side. 889 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080 And then #2 is you had to build an ecosystem where then once the 890 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,320 asset came on chain, it improved from what it was off chain. 891 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,000 Because the truth is, almost every asset that utopianized 892 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,280 today becomes worse on chain than off chain, right? 893 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,960 And it's not because the rails are different. 894 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,640 It's because you're now like, even if you go to Fidelity today 895 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:20,480 and buy T-bills, right? And like that's a very safe, 896 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,120 straightforward thing. Like it doesn't really get 897 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,280 better than that, right? And when you bring that on 898 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,720 chain, now you're taking counterparty risk, you're taking 899 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,920 smart contract risk, right? You're, you're having multiple 900 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,600 middle men to kind of figure out what's going on. 901 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:34,320 You're taking you're, you're also almost certainly getting 902 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,120 less guilt because there's fees are going on all these people in 903 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,160 the middle, right? So it's just it's functionally 904 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,840 worse in almost every dimension when you bring this asset on 905 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,600 chain, if it does nothing like it does in the off chain world, 906 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,760 which is what all these assets were at the time, right? 907 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,240 And so how do you actually improve it? 908 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:49,880 You have to lean into what makes it great to be on Shane, which 909 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,600 it has to be able to move. It has to be able to get lugged 910 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,680 into an ecosystem and actually do things with it. 911 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,200 And so that's why we got ulled over from OK, let's just do a 912 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,760 tokenization engine to then, OK, God, we have to like has to, has 913 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,240 to, we have to demand to do the side. 914 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:03,920 So how to do that? Let's build this community, 915 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,240 right? And, and that's what we have the 916 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:07,040 plume dunes today with the sort of like rabid group of folks 917 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,320 that are that irradiate plume. And then at the end, it's like, 918 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,600 well, now you have to build a bunch of applications that want 919 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,240 to actually take these things and do it use it. 920 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,840 When we have to build equity pools against you have a 921 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,840 secondary market, you need to be able to lend against these 922 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,400 things, right? You need to do all this stuff. 923 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,480 And so that's what ended up becoming this like, you know, 924 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,280 chain story where he said, OK, everyone here, we have to bring 925 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,800 together we could do it all another chain. 926 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,800 We have to solve a bunch of the same problems, right? 927 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,440 AML the sequencer level doing privacy stuff, you know, having 928 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,840 even like like, you know, focused integrations, it turns 929 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,240 out like, you know, taking classic defy applications and 930 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,760 like making them RW ready is not really a thing. 931 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,760 You know, we our vault product nest, right, We use we we've 932 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,320 used every off the shelf thing you can find, right, And we've 933 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,320 used all the sort of like just, you know, classic defect 934 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,960 products to do things. They, they don't really work 935 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,000 that well, so you have to customize every single thing. 936 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,040 So that's what came out of this. You had to just constantly 937 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,360 customize the chain, some of the dynamics around these things, 938 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,080 the applications, the products in here to make this whole thing 939 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,880 work together. And that's how like sort of, you 940 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,120 know, many steps later from starting off with just pure 941 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,800 totalization engine, we ended up with here's our own chain, 942 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,400 here's our own ecosystem, here's our application. 943 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,880 Now on the other side of that, where I think a lot of people 944 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,040 get sort of caught up with us and it's like people say, well, 945 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,920 you know, most chains are just optimized to like growing their 946 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,480 own chain, right? And they're very like only 947 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,720 working with themselves. We are just not like that right? 948 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,560 Like, you know, going. Come back to it, the whole point 949 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,800 of starting Plume was to grow crypto and we thought that 950 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,040 bringing real world assets, a new use case and time the world 951 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,520 together would be how we broke and be a net positive for 952 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,520 everybody. If we can grow articles, we all 953 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,000 would, right versus just growing plume, right. 954 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,680 And so for us, it was like meant to be a place as born a 955 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,680 necessity to bootstrap this ecosystem, bootstrap this use 956 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,720 case and do and that's why we were the first ones to do all 957 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:39,480 the stuff. You know, that's what we have. 958 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,200 You know, we had them, you know, one of the largest holder bases 959 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,520 in all of Artibase and crypto, you know, you know, more than 960 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,840 the next tensions combined, you know, and hundreds of millions 961 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,320 of dollars. You know, it's why we have these 962 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,960 things, because we had to build all this stuff together. 963 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,320 Now, now that it's like kind of in place, you know, across other 964 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,680 places and there's more adoption elsewhere, we can begin to take 965 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,400 the things that we've sort of like perfected here and bring 966 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,200 them elsewhere, right? And that's why, you know, we we 967 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,440 took nest and we put it on and we put it on the slaughter, 968 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:04,120 Isn't it? Right. 969 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,520 And and like, you know, people sort of like don't understand 970 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,960 about what that is. But you know, again, our whole 971 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,960 focus is to grow, grow RWA and grow crypto and that's by going 972 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,200 to where the user is does. That make sense and yeah, yeah, 973 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,720 totally. So, so there's, you know, 974 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:21,840 there's two products, there's Plume, which is the RWA issuance 975 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,400 platform. And then Nest is a, a vault 976 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,680 protocol or like a vault product that allows users to kind of 977 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,200 generate yield on, on some of the, I guess may perhaps like 978 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,080 flagship assets that you guys have on, on Plume. 979 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,680 Is that like a right way to look at it? 980 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,880 Like I would say this Plume is a chain, like just straight up a 981 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,600 chain. You know, we have an actuation 982 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,640 product on top that's basically the other half of Nest, right? 983 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,920 So Nest is two sides. There's an asset issuer side 984 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,920 where you can issue the assets and tokenized things. 985 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,880 We have a transfer agent that from the SEC right, that were 986 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,920 granted in the fall. And we have, you know, many 987 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,520 other licenses that are there pending right now. 988 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,360 So it allows you to work with like regulated funds and bring 989 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,880 these assets on chain. And then Nest on the other side 990 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,400 is the end user facing side of things. 991 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,680 And it's this sort of distribution part and that lives 992 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,160 on as one of the applications on chain. 993 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,040 We have, you know, dozens and dozens of outfits that are chain 994 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,720 and that's one of them. But we highlight that just that 995 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,320 it ends up being the the sort of central point that a lot of the 996 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,840 activity stem from. So what? 997 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,840 How, how, how significant is this transfer agent license that 998 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,080 you received from the SEC? Can you explain what that is 999 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,320 and? Yeah, total, total. 1000 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,400 Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's one piece 1001 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,880 of a bigger story for us, right. Meaning we have many other 1002 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,560 things with both a broke a deal license and ATS license, you 1003 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,520 know all these things as well. The, the transfer agent, 1004 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,600 basically it is a simple license from the SEC that allows you to 1005 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,240 update the cap table, right? And so you know, if, if there's 1006 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:52,640 a fund as an example, take the BlackRock money market fund or 1007 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,640 any fund, right? Or the private Apollo private 1008 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,640 credit fund, right? Like what that is, is you just 1009 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,000 say here's the $10 million slug with this asset, right? 1010 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,200 And here's a list of people that own it, right? 1011 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,200 And like how much they own basically, right. 1012 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,960 And the transfer agent allows us to update that list, right? 1013 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,160 That file sits in a desk somewhere, right? 1014 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,000 Or sits, sits, sits in a file box somewhere like in DC or 1015 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,240 whatever, right? And that allows us to go then 1016 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,640 update this thing. So this way now it allows us to 1017 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,080 then take the asset as we bring it on chain and as we move it 1018 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,720 around, right, we can update that record, right? 1019 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,600 And update things. In this way, you can actually 1020 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,160 have a closer tie in ownership of the asset on chain, right? 1021 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,520 And allows us to, to have the asset issuer also get more 1022 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,760 comfortable because they need to, they need this information, 1023 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,920 right, in order to actually feel conflation with these assets. 1024 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,600 And so it's both sides. It allows movement but also 1025 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,040 opens the funnel for more assets to come in. 1026 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,280 OK. No, that makes sense. 1027 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,160 Yeah. So I'm actually like pretty 1028 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,760 curious about these nest faults. So can you talk about some of 1029 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,400 these faults? And I mean, because like the 1030 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,720 yields are like on paper pretty attractive. 1031 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,080 Some of the top faults here as as I'm recording this today are 1032 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,040 around 12%. And then there's, of course, 1033 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,680 like some boost, but, you know, redemption period up to seven 1034 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,800 days. You know why? 1035 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,240 Like I guess like. Where are these yields coming 1036 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:12,320 from primarily, and it's what's? The kind of like risk. 1037 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,360 Profile for some of these vaults is like principal capital at 1038 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,160 risk. Is it just smart contract risk? 1039 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,000 Like, yeah, Yep, Yep, for sure. There's no such thing. 1040 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,880 As risk for yield, right. So that's probably the starting 1041 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,920 point, but like the like Nest today, right, Is it's, it's 1042 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,840 classic vaults, right? That's like the way they went. 1043 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,080 There's a lot of stuff under the hood that customized for RTPS. 1044 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,760 But basically like for the for the user, it's vaults, which 1045 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,640 means you come and you put stable coins, you get a receipt 1046 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,360 token against it. And then it's a value accruing 1047 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,360 receipt token, right? So we call them N token. 1048 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,160 And then so if you were to take $10, right, A10 USDC, right, and 1049 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,000 put it into N alpha or, or excuse me, our Nest alpha vault, 1050 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,400 you get an N alpha token. That N alpha token is an LP 1051 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,680 token you can then go around doing things with and primarily 1052 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,640 like, you know, loop on more for whatever or swap in and out on 1053 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,160 our, on our decks or whatever, right? 1054 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,440 And so that that's what nest is today, right now, what is 1055 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,720 underlying Nest? Nest really is, right. 1056 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,720 Like I said, the other half of Nest is the asset issuance 1057 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,600 platform, right? Which means there's a, there's a 1058 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,040 redesign in it. And like there's a bunch of new 1059 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,280 UI stuff and a bunch of new like vaults that are not exposed 1060 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,000 today to the public that we're also going to expose because we 1061 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,240 have a permission side of nest too. 1062 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:19,760 So for example, we have the, you know, a, a cred X, so Apollo's 1063 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,640 acred private credit fund, right, that everyone talks about 1064 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,480 the the largest deployment of that on any, in any chain is on 1065 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,920 Plume today, right? And it's there just not showing 1066 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,440 up right now because it's a it's a permission thing. 1067 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,440 It's a it's done in a more classic KYB way and you have the 1068 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:33,840 assets in there and it's the whole thing, right? 1069 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,640 So there's a lot of that. But what is under the Neath of 1070 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,000 under the hood of Nest, it's just a list of assets. 1071 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,800 We've tokenized a bunch of stuff from some of the best aster 1072 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,880 issues in the world, right? And it's sitting there and these 1073 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,160 we we've like plugged in, integrated all these things. 1074 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,840 And so you have the legal setup, the entity setup, the tie in the 1075 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,600 pricing setups, right? So then you could do buying 1076 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,560 redemption, pricing updates, withdrawals, rebalancing, all of 1077 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,960 that, right? And so when you go into a Nest 1078 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,240 alcohol as a simple example, right, what we have is a set of 1079 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,760 curators that assemble these vaults today, right? 1080 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,040 That they basically say for Nest Alpha, it's a collection of 1081 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,200 these things that sort of give you this target risk profile, 1082 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,640 this target duration, this target APY, right? 1083 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,680 But you also single asset vaults that are just one thing, right? 1084 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,840 You know, we have N basis today, right, which is our basis trade 1085 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,920 vault, which is like primarily just USCC. 1086 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,760 There's some other stuff in it too, but it's like primarily 1087 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,000 just USCC, right, basis trade stuff, right? 1088 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,200 And that's like almost a single asset vault, right? 1089 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,120 We, we, I think with an Opal, right? 1090 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,720 An Opal is our Brazilian credit card receivables vault, right? 1091 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,840 That's just one asset, just Brazil credit card receivables. 1092 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,440 And then we have these collective vaults, like an alpha 1093 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,240 where you take many of these vaults and assemble them into 1094 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:38,840 one thing, right? So that's what this is today, 1095 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,480 right? Nest today has some of the 1096 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,360 biggest aspects in the world. We have things like Apollo on 1097 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:44,720 there. We have Wisdom Tree, we have, 1098 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,440 you know, some of the Janice Henderson funds. 1099 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,760 We've got, you know, Hamilton Lynscope that's coming in there 1100 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,880 as well, right? We have, you know, there's also 1101 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,280 you get, so this is art exposing us a crunch stuff. 1102 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,200 And there we have Taikong, which is one of the big insurance 1103 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,440 companies in China. We have the CMI China Merchant 1104 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,400 National Bank in there, right? And so that's what this is right 1105 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,000 now for, for most people today. We deal a lot with like more 1106 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,320 institutional folks as well. The, the, the platform is a 1107 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,680 simple way to say I can plug into Nest and just through a 1108 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,320 menu, get every major asset in the world that's that's into 1109 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,840 that's encrypted today. And either Dura deploy directed 1110 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,600 to that one thing, right? Or I can assemble a basket of my 1111 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,000 own that gives me the proper exposure that I want, right. 1112 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:26,280 And we have some out-of-the-box ones that have been assembled 1113 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:27,800 kind of small, medium, large, That's what you see in the 1114 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,600 interface, right? And then behind the scenes you 1115 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,080 have, you know, things that have been custom built, right, for 1116 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,920 individual users. Does that make sense? 1117 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,200 Yeah, that makes sense. And so you. 1118 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,480 You know, I'm looking at, for instance, like the, you know, 1119 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,720 the nest Alpha fault, you know, we have like credit card 1120 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,880 receivables and here you can click and you can go and see 1121 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,240 like the data, the data room for that, for that vault. 1122 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,920 So there's a there's some curator or like some asset 1123 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,840 manager that is managing that position and and delivering the 1124 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,320 the yield. That's right. 1125 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,600 And instead of vaults are sort of like essentially sort of 1126 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,920 allocations in different in different weights of of these. 1127 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,680 That's exactly right position. That's exactly right. 1128 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,680 Right and just the function like you know it, it sounds easier 1129 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,400 because the vaults actually sound like a very simple thing 1130 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:14,840 and I that's why I thought they were too, to be honest. 1131 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,680 And it turns out there's a lot of there's a lot under the hood 1132 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,960 of the vault, which is you have to like, you know, especially 1133 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,320 for RW as in which these things are not fully liquid, right? 1134 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,800 These things are not fully that you know a lot of these things 1135 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,440 are just Monday through Friday. You can't do on the weekends, 1136 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,800 right? So you know, you have to and 1137 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,560 then also getting the yield back at the right time and getting 1138 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,840 pricing updates. So like, you know, Nest Alpha, 1139 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,320 when you deposit to that, as a simple example, and maybe like 1140 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,360 four or five assets in there, it's then breaking up your, 1141 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,560 your, your, your USCC or whatever into multiple into 1142 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,760 multiple tranches and sending it to the 10 different places, 1143 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,960 right? And then keeping track of that 1144 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,880 position and bouncing magic and bringing the yield back at the 1145 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,120 right of time. So when you withdraw, it's the 1146 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,520 exact same thing. You have to go paying five 1147 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,400 people withdraw and then collect it, bring it back and offer it 1148 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,480 and put it into profit. So it's a lot of coordination, a 1149 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,760 lot of OPS, a lot of work under the hood to do this in a way 1150 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,280 that like normal about crypto native vaults don't have to do 1151 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,320 because all the smart contracts, you just do it instantly, right. 1152 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,440 But for us to do it in real world assets, it's a lot of 1153 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,040 integration work. It's a lot of like pricing work. 1154 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,040 It's a lot of like, you know, OPS work to make it, to make it 1155 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,080 all the same. But that's what it is today. 1156 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,680 Yeah. OK, that's cool. 1157 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,800 And. I want to. 1158 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,400 Take a step back here a little bit and. 1159 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,680 Then come back to the institutional conversation we 1160 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:18,840 were having a little bit of sure. 1161 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,360 And you know, one of the things that I've been thinking about a 1162 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,200 lot lately and it's been on my mind is, yeah, I've been in the 1163 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,640 space for well, over, well over a decade. 1164 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,520 And it really feels right now like there's a big inflection 1165 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,960 point where all this stuff that we all wanted, right, we wanted 1166 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,240 like Treadfy to get in crypto. And that was the whole kind of 1167 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,480 part, partly the whole point. But it does feel to me and a lot 1168 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,720 of people I talked to that I've been in the space for a while 1169 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,560 that folks that have been in crypto and have been on the more 1170 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:57,560 like the D Gen. Side are not so excited. 1171 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,720 About what's happening, right? There's not a lot of it. 1172 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,440 There's like innovation is kind of drying up. 1173 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,760 You know, we tried Defy, we tried like NFTS and like mean 1174 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,760 coins. Like there's been all these 1175 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,960 waves of like really interesting times in crypto where stuff is 1176 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,800 happening, things are frothy, people are making money, there's 1177 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,480 innovative new things. And I'm not talking even about, 1178 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,880 you know, all the kind of innovative consensus mechanism 1179 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,080 and governance mechanisms and Dows and all that kind of stuff, 1180 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,560 right? Like all the stuff that we all 1181 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:31,320 kind of got in the space for seems to be drying up as things 1182 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,280 become more institutional. And I think there's going to be 1183 00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:37,800 somewhat of an exodus of a lot of folks that have been in the 1184 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,120 space for a while. Like, you know, Haseeb talks 1185 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,800 about this recently. He was on some podcast and was 1186 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,480 like, you just have to stay in the space long enough. 1187 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,200 And like a lot of people that were in the beginning, were 1188 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,320 there in the beginning are going to leave and you're going to be 1189 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,640 sort of like in a good position. And, and I, I agree, I think, I 1190 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:57,080 think that's kind of happening. And, and so I guess the question 1191 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:02,280 is like, where, where do you think the space goes from here? 1192 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:07,600 When decentralization, decentralized governance, you 1193 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,200 know, not with the consensus mechanisms, all these things 1194 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,360 cease to be that important, right? 1195 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,160 Where? Self custody ceases to be that 1196 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,720 important, right where you, you buy some asset, it's using some 1197 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,320 crypto rail, it's in your revolute account, but you never 1198 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,440 hold your own keys. You, you know, all of these 1199 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,920 ideas that have been pushed by the crypto industry and sort of 1200 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,400 proponents of the space for the last, you know, decade and a 1201 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,120 half kind of go away, right? So what's left basically like 1202 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,720 what's left? Is it just total rails? 1203 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,360 Yep, totally. I think it the ends a pivotal 1204 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,560 moment in that it could go one way or the other and one way to 1205 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,400 me is more bleak and more a little bit more depressing. 1206 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,600 And the other one is like temporary pain will make it type 1207 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,200 of situation, right. And I think that, you know, at 1208 00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,240 the end of the day, like. What people were here? 1209 00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:04,040 For was very simple. They're sort of at split between 1210 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:07,000 the original people came into crypto who were really focused 1211 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,840 on decentralization and this new this new architecture and all 1212 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,560 these types of things, right. There's sort of a second wave of 1213 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,880 people that came in that really was here for nothing more than 1214 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,240 just making money, right. And I don't say that shortly 1215 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,600 like I I would, I would like, you know, I I would count myself 1216 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,640 in that in that group as well. You know, like I know that it's 1217 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,520 not it's like I did. It's, it's like not possible to 1218 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,000 pretend that's not like a huge part of crypto culture as well, 1219 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,080 right? And, and so both those things I 1220 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,080 think are, are real now. Where does that take us now, 1221 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,600 right? I think the reason it's kind of 1222 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,520 gone sideways a little bit sentiment wise is because both 1223 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,000 of those things have dried up, right? 1224 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,640 Like the idea that this sort of like new, this new architecture 1225 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,560 that would upgrade the financial ecosystem and, and all the 1226 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,240 stuff. And you have self custody and 1227 00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,320 privacy and self sovereignty and all these things, right? 1228 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,160 And, and trustlessness. Like it's kind of not really let 1229 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,360 us anywhere so far, right from an adoption standpoint and #2 is 1230 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,960 the, the other side of things. So just the hybrid gambling and, 1231 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,440 and the yield in the end. And you know, the Hunter X type 1232 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,720 of nonsense is also not really panned out. 1233 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,720 You know, it's mostly been done only and it's just massive 1234 00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:07,840 extraction from, from, from a bunch of stuff, right? 1235 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,880 So both those things have gone the wrong way right now, if we 1236 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,160 go back to it, right, Crypto the the, the problem with crypto has 1237 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,920 always been that the benefits of these principles don't really 1238 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,440 show up until Step 2 or Step 3, right? 1239 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:23,000 Meaning in the beginning, it actually looks and feels worse, 1240 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:24,080 right? That's why it's that's why we 1241 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,840 talk the onboarding stunt. It's like actually pretty hard 1242 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,920 for to understand why it's valuable until much later. 1243 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:29,400 Once you're deep in it, it's actually awesome. 1244 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,240 You told to get right, like, you know, have be able to hold your 1245 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:34,560 own stables, right, have all your money build, move around to 1246 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,240 whatever you want and like, it's like incredibly useful, right? 1247 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,360 And it's impossible to like, it's possible to go. 1248 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,240 It's impossible to go backwards once you really see that right? 1249 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,040 But the problem is it take you have to get to step two or three 1250 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,120 for that to happen, right? And so that's what's going on 1251 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:49,960 right now. It's like, you know, we've been 1252 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,520 unable to kind of bring that thing forward. 1253 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,880 All the new stuff coming in is very it feels like the same 1254 00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,920 thing as before, right? It feels like, you know, it's 1255 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,040 Ventechi, it's very like trad. It's very, you know, again, 1256 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,240 we're throwing away a lot of these principles, but I think we 1257 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:06,920 do it right. It's the same thing by 1258 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,240 onboarding a lot of these things. 1259 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:11,640 If we set the frame correctly that phase two, phase 3, when 1260 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,320 all these assets and people and use cases are here, well then 1261 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:15,920 manifest in different ways, right? 1262 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,200 And we'll all the things that matter, which self sovereignty, 1263 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,120 right being able to take, you know, be having self custody and 1264 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,720 all those things will apply, but instead of just to a very notice 1265 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,320 to everything. And then that will massively 1266 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,360 change everything again, right. And then so, so so that to me is 1267 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,800 like to be the upside case here and where it gets really 1268 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,240 exciting and where I think it's, it's a little bit of like a 1269 00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,160 temporary a moment in time where it just feels bad. 1270 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,240 But if we set this thing correctly, this massive event of 1271 00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:43,120 bringing all these like, you know, people have been scared of 1272 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,120 regulation, but like, you know, we're deep in it as an example, 1273 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,160 like we, we, we spend a lot of time in Hong Kong and a lot of 1274 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,760 time in UAA, lot of time in DC to like talk to regulators, 1275 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:51,440 right, and get our licensing work with them. 1276 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,160 And the reason is because unlocking a massive amount of 1277 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,920 dollars, assets and use cases and people right into all this 1278 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,080 stuff, right, is going to there's no way it's bad for 1279 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,640 crypto, right? But we have to maintain our 1280 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,040 stance and make sure that it's done in a way that if once it's 1281 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,800 here, we still ball control, right? 1282 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,560 And in two or three years, what it when, when, when you have the 1283 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,040 opportunity to now, you know, treat these assets and, and as 1284 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,000 your own and still have hold the keys into all that. 1285 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,120 Like that way it's still possible to do all that, you 1286 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,360 know, and it hasn't been Co opted by someone else. 1287 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:22,880 And so that to me is like where we're at. 1288 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,800 It is, it is a pivotal moment. It's like a it's a it's a 1289 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,400 pivotal moment to which you can go the wrong way. 1290 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,040 And I think we're I think we're still tracking tracking, but 1291 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,840 it's it's like, you know, it's pretty it's up in the air, 1292 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,160 honestly, right. And you have two sides of it. 1293 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,520 Like, you know, maybe like take the, you know, the new 1294 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,200 channeling maybe takes the RO right or 0 right. 1295 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:40,920 That's sort of like very, you know, in my opinion, they're 1296 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:42,520 talking about privacy. Tell me decentralization and 1297 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,120 talking about, you know, open information list, which I think 1298 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:45,480 are all the right words. And then you look at something 1299 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,400 more aligned to like, I don't take Canton as an example, 1300 00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,960 right? And like, you know, I think both 1301 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,480 are doing great things for it's worth, right? 1302 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,600 But it's clearly two different viewpoints, right? 1303 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,840 You know, we are crypto was meant to sort of get rid of the 1304 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,920 middle man, right, and you know, now you have one one money. 1305 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,000 So that's like very that's literally the middle man right. 1306 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,960 I'm trying to do the thing right and and and the assets to live 1307 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,000 on change right. You can't move them around. 1308 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,760 You can't take all of them. You know, there is no custody. 1309 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,440 So it's just two different two different worlds and I think 1310 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,280 they both can win for its worth. But I do think we need to 1311 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,640 preserve at least the original one that we were here for. 1312 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,520 Yes, I agree. Chris, thank you so much for 1313 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,040 joining me on Epicenter today. It's been great chatting, 1314 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,680 learning about Plume and yeah, excited to see where things go 1315 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,680 next with regards to RW as I mean, I think you know, there 1316 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,880 there is sort of a inflection point right now in a space and 1317 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,200 whether or not. Enough people with. 1318 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:43,640 Sort of crypto values and principles and ethos stick 1319 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,160 around I think is an open question. 1320 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:46,840 But yes, definitely hoping they do. 1321 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,600 Yes, definitely, definitely. I mean, I think they go back to 1322 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:49,880 it. Right. 1323 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,560 I've been, you know, money is made and not even that, but 1324 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,920 like, you know, I think the job of anyone is to find change, 1325 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,200 right, in my opinion, and, and the clearly is change happening 1326 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,800 right now in crypto and and finance and and technology. 1327 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,080 And so the question is, you know, what direction it goes in. 1328 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,280 But at the minimum, it's an exciting time to kind of be 1329 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,600 evolved and then to, you know, there are a few moments where 1330 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,160 things actually get shaped and this is one of them. 1331 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,200 So, you know, glad to to be far of it. 1332 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,200 Hope everyone else is like also, you know, you know, pitching in 1333 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,560 so we can hopefully make it work the right way. 1334 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:19,200 Thanks, Chris. Cheers. 1335 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:19,960 Cool. Thanks man.