1 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:15,700 Welcome to epicenter of the show which talks about the 2 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:19,100 Technologies projects and people driving decentralization. 3 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:21,100 And the blockchain revolution, I'm set of sync with you all. 4 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:25,400 Today we're speaking with John, let a co-founder at Chi 5ky. 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,900 I've is a protocol that helps developers store retrieve and 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,700 Validate data on and off chain. And we're going to be diving 7 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:36,100 deep into cock. Today are sending how it works. 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:42,400 It's interesting place sort of sitting between Cosmos and our 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,700 weave and also use cases and the product roadmap. 10 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:49,700 Before we get started, I just want to, I just want to shill 11 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:52,200 nebular Summit here for a second because we did launch the 12 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:57,000 website and it's really exciting - Summit is happening in Paris 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,800 again this year on July 24th and 25th. 14 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:04,599 Right after ECC websites live, it's nebular. 15 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:09,800 Builders and early bird tickets are on sale for just $39. 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,900 You get access to two days of probably one of the best 17 00:01:14,100 --> 00:01:17,100 interchain Builders conference in the world. 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,700 I would argue, you know, going hit going towards that number 19 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:26,500 one spot for for the best interchanging developer 20 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:29,100 conference. And we're really excited to have 21 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,800 announced the venue. Which is this really cool 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,900 business school in the center of Paris called Albert school. 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,000 So be sure to check it out and get your tickets if you plan on 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,900 being in Paris this summer again, websites nebular, dot 25 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:46,200 builders And you guys were both there last year and hoping to 26 00:01:46,208 --> 00:01:48,600 see you guys there. Again, this year, for sure, we 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,200 got my spending quite a few team members down this year. 28 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:54,200 Definitely. Yeah, we really want to make 29 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,900 this a developer conference. I guess what? 30 00:01:55,900 --> 00:01:59,900 I'm trying to say here, and, and we'll have lots of technical 31 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:02,800 content and workshops, but that's enough of that. 32 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:07,300 John, tell us a bit about yourself and how you got to be 33 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:10,400 here, of course. So, yes, that's no. 34 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,900 I'm done. I'm the co-founder and CTO of 35 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:16,400 chi, I've a good place to start is probably like how it got into 36 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,900 crypto. So, you know, you know, come 37 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:22,000 from like more like an academic background doing a lot of 38 00:02:22,008 --> 00:02:24,000 research. Doing a lot of research and AI 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,300 which like now is like a Hot Topic but I'm quite deep into 40 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:30,200 crypto now. So you know so like came from 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:35,300 like the academic side of things, Don took do in 2019. 42 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,200 I was doing an internship for a month, a start-up actually kind 43 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,200 of touched on data. They're a little bit because 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,900 what we were doing there and again this is when Enterprise 45 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:45,500 blockchains would like the same thing. 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,800 And so basically we were building an Enterprise 47 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,300 blockchain based off of a theory. 48 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:54,400 Mm that was dealing more real and Sorry, that's some point. 49 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,100 Exactly. So, you know, it's like my first 50 00:02:57,100 --> 00:02:59,900 interaction with smart contracts with etherium with, like data 51 00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:02,400 involved in the mixed arrows. Loads of fun. 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,100 Kind of fell out of it though. After that. 53 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:07,000 So you know, like that was like my first interaction with crypto 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,300 but when I really got like heads down to crypto was actually 55 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,600 during the Copa lockdown, it's like 2020 like started it 56 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,400 summertime ish and kind of bite chance fell onto our we've and 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,400 just like discovered it And you know, like what fascinated me 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,400 about our we've actually it's like right now everyone. 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,000 Kind of just assumes that Dave has permanent rights like when 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,600 you have photos and whatnot on your phone, you just like assume 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,900 that it's permanent, right? But in reality it's actually 62 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,600 not, you know, maybe you have like an iCloud backup or 63 00:03:36,608 --> 00:03:38,000 something like that again. Very work too. 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,400 But like in the end, state is not actually permanent. 65 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,800 And so it was kind of a cool realization for me. 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,200 I was like actually this is a very Niche problem that they're 67 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,200 solving like like really fell in love with the concept of it. 68 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,600 Of course, you know I'm a huge history nerd as well. 69 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:54,200 Also that also kind of fascinated. 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,000 Me about like permanently storing everything. 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,000 So, yeah. So like joined the community. 72 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,400 I was actually one of like, the first, like, you know, Community 73 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,500 developers, like, really just like building lots of random 74 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:08,800 cool stuff in our. We've, yeah, so fell into our 75 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,300 weave in 2020. Played around with a lot of 76 00:04:12,308 --> 00:04:15,400 different things there. So, if you don't know, there's 77 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,300 like an, ER, C, 20 like token standard on top of, Are We? 78 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,500 And so I created the first-ever decentralized trading platform 79 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:27,300 for that again, loads of random cool stuff and then, yeah, 80 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:30,000 throughout all that process of working on projects. 81 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:33,600 I met my co-founder Fabien. You guys have talked to before 82 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:38,300 and then through that, you know, we worked on loads of different 83 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:40,900 sides projects hackathons in different things. 84 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:43,700 And that's actually kind of how we came across. 85 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:49,100 The idea for Clive is because polkadot and are we've at the 86 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:52,400 start of 2021 put together this bounty. 87 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,600 And it was basically like, Hey listen, you know, right now we 88 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,800 have a problem where there's not a lot of full notes in our 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,200 Network. And by the way, this isn't just 90 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,300 a problem for polka dots problem for alone of blockchains because 91 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:05,600 full nodes are actually not incentivized in like poop State 92 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,500 networks, in general. And so polka dot was like, Hey, 93 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:11,100 listen, like it would be great if you could come of 94 00:05:11,108 --> 00:05:15,300 decentralised access to like a full note, I'm like data that 95 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:19,300 the full node has and so polka dot, you know, created the Grant 96 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:22,500 on get coin with our we've and me and fabulous. 97 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:24,000 All right, we're like, hey that's really cool. 98 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,400 You know, we can like archive all the polka dots data from a 99 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,500 full node onto our. We've so, you know, like one 100 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,300 weekend and a simple script later, you know, we went to Sam 101 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:36,100 who's the CEO are. We don't like, hey, Sam listen 102 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:38,100 like we have this and you like, wow, okay, that's really cool. 103 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:40,600 You know, we talked to polkadot, they were happy with it and then 104 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,300 Sam was Oh by the way, you know when polka dot did this they 105 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:45,000 weren't actually the only blockchain the wanted to do 106 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,900 that. And so through that we got 107 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:52,000 connected to, you know, everyone from Avalanche and Solana to 108 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:53,900 near. And even The Interchange 109 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,500 foundation of the cosmos, we got connected, like everywhere. 110 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:02,200 And then we kind of saw the need for tool that permanently sorts 111 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,400 like full note information. But then of course, you know we 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,500 saw the fundamental like trust problem there. 113 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:11,300 We're basically it's like, if it's really just like a Script 114 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:13,800 that we're providing to the foundations of these blockchains 115 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:16,400 the trust of like the fundamental Trust. 116 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:20,200 Restrictions are still there basically. 117 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:22,800 And so we said, okay we can take this one step further, right? 118 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,200 Instead of just permanently storing copies of this full node 119 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,700 and blockchain Ledger information, how about we also 120 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:30,300 then decentralize it and make it restless. 121 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,200 And so that's kind of when the idea for cock was born and then 122 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,800 like two and a half years later, we've just launched. 123 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,700 Our Cosmos layer 1, which is really cool. 124 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,800 Yeah, I guess there is a lot to dive into their I think 125 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:47,300 especially maybe we can already start there, but I guess I've 126 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:51,600 already started out initially on our we've then I think you move 127 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,000 to to Moonbeam, until I finally like launching your own Cosmos 128 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,200 may not. And again, congrats to the 129 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,900 recent launch. I think, you know what would be 130 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:04,000 very interesting for many people is probably you know like you're 131 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,400 one of the projects that has done this migration and it seems 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,000 like a lot of people are Doing this migration either in that 133 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,200 direction or maybe, like, from obtain too smart for her. 134 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,700 I guess I've seen that last but probably more like going for a 135 00:07:16,707 --> 00:07:19,100 smart contract to like a chain. And I guess would be interesting 136 00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:24,300 to hear your reasons of why how you chose to do that and what 137 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:28,400 what it gets you as a kind of protocol, for sure. 138 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,600 Yes. So I would actually very, very 139 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,500 curious to hear people's reasons for going from a nap chained to 140 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:36,700 a Smart contract. That's going to be very 141 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,100 interesting reason. So anyways, so yeah, so like you 142 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:43,100 said we want from a smart contract from are we to 143 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:44,900 Moonbeam? Which for anyone that doesn't 144 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:49,100 know that's basically F most on polka-dotted CVM but on 145 00:07:49,108 --> 00:07:52,000 substrate and then. Yeah. 146 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,500 After that, we then migrated over to our own like Cosmos 147 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:57,400 option. Yeah. 148 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,800 Basically fundamentally the main reasons for that is that smart 149 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,700 contracts degrades, right? Like they, they definitely have 150 00:08:03,707 --> 00:08:05,800 their purpose and like, daps are amazing. 151 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,100 But what we realize is that, we were just Just not scalable 152 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:11,300 enough. Like they were just not 153 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,000 scalable, not for us. Because like when thinking about 154 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,000 Kai, I've right, we're building a full decentralized Network, 155 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,000 right? And you know, smart contracts 156 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,800 can only go so far. They're great for, you know, 157 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,600 building a MMS and they're great for doing entities and tokens 158 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,300 and whatnot, right? But when you're trying to build 159 00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:31,300 a full scalable network, with actually like a validator set, 160 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:34,400 It gets a little bit complicated, especially in the 161 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,600 ebm space where you have to like constantly and I mean, 162 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,700 constantly optimized for gas. It was like we were really, 163 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:43,900 really like having a hard time thinking about. 164 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:47,600 Okay, this is how we like store validator sets and rewards and 165 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,900 everything like that but then, okay, that's one way of doing 166 00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:51,500 it. And then how do we optimize it 167 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:55,400 that it doesn't cost a fortune but then even like that the 168 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,300 problem is that you're sharing block space because it's like 169 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:02,600 and like fundamentally the way that like Like a theory, mm 170 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,700 gasps models work is basically, you know, the more contract 171 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:08,700 calls and interactions on the network, not just what your 172 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:12,700 contract, but in general, the more expensive it gets and so 173 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:15,700 you know we saw it's like in nft launched or something like that. 174 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:18,400 You know, cost of running a node would go from like a reasonable 175 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,300 price because we optimized it to something like crazy, high and 176 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:23,900 ridiculous. And so is like those main two 177 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:27,500 reasons which is just like scalability, and then also just 178 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:31,200 like cost efficiency and like, sharing block space, we're like 179 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,500 the two Main reasons why we decided to kind of look into AB 180 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:36,100 chains. So we were, of course, looking 181 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:39,800 into a few other options kind of Apt in ecosystems, if you also 182 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,500 like, you know, Avalanche has it subnets, you know, a lot of 183 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,300 other options ecosystem. So now kind of Spun up since 184 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:50,100 we're looking into this but in the end honestly, the smoothest 185 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:54,300 process was actually just cosmetics and you know, at the 186 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:58,100 time was called starport and now it's called the night CLI, but 187 00:09:58,100 --> 00:10:00,800 we were actually like the entire Tech team went to East Denver 188 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,500 2022. And, you know, we had done a lot 189 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:05,700 in Cosmos before that. So we are already very familiar 190 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:08,000 with it and then we're like, Hey, listen what happens if we 191 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,100 just use ignite just try it out, right? 192 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:12,600 And so, you know, we're like sitting at youth Denver, like, 193 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,000 in a, we work sometimes, as well. 194 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,600 We just like, okay, let's just do this. 195 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,500 It took us about like, five days in total like of conversion and 196 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:23,800 whatnot, to get like an internal definite up and running. 197 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,900 So like five days to convert from solidity smart contract, 198 00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:30,600 which we had worked on for, like, a year to like, completely 199 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,400 over 2A. Most obtained. 200 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,700 And it was really cool to see, of course, you know, been taking 201 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:38,400 Dev next, that you spot up in five days to something a little 202 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,800 bit more concrete. With the validator sets, 203 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,400 definitely took some time, but and lots of learnings, but no, 204 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,100 it was, it was like loads of fun. 205 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,200 And that's kind of the reasons why we switched. 206 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:54,000 What does the ignite CLI? You know, as a sort of like 207 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,300 non-developer, but, you know, someone who's fairly technical, 208 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:59,400 I guess what it is about, what is it about, the ignite CLI. 209 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,200 That just makes that process of Of porting over and a theorem 210 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,900 smart contract to essentially an app chain. 211 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,600 Easy, give you talk about your experience in doing that more 212 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,300 specifically about like, of course. 213 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,700 Yeah, so like with the route like the latest release of the 214 00:11:17,708 --> 00:11:23,000 cosmos SDK and with the cosmos SDK Eden release coming up a 215 00:11:23,008 --> 00:11:26,200 year, so I don't actually know the timeline there but like 216 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,300 they're definitely removing a lot of the needed like the 217 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,600 boilerplate code that you need, when A cosmo stop chain. 218 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:35,700 The problem is that like when we did this year ago there was 219 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:39,900 still a heavy need to have all that boilerplate code around. 220 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:43,300 And so, you know, you know, developers just coming into the 221 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:46,700 ecosystem, they don't fully know their ways like in and outs of 222 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:48,100 all the different things that you need. 223 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,100 Like fully run the cosmos capturing. 224 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,500 Right. And so what the ignite CLI does 225 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:56,900 is it basically takes all that boilerplate code that you may or 226 00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:59,300 may not know that you need to have, right? 227 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,200 We as you're just like starting on Cosmos. 228 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,200 It takes all that boilerplate code and generates it for you 229 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,600 and so it's like makes it really easy to say, okay listen, this 230 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,900 is what I want my state of my blockchain to look like it's 231 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:14,300 going to have these values and then it kind of just generates a 232 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:17,600 boilerplate for you from their long term, of course, if you 233 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,000 want to like, actually run a chain of production, definitely, 234 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,700 you know, you need to remove a lot of that boilerplate code and 235 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,800 really understand the fundamentals, like what's going 236 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,700 on which is what we did after the fact but like what was 237 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,900 really like, fantastic. Eric and what makes switch so 238 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:34,500 easy. So that they just handled all 239 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:36,900 the kind of the cosmos nitty-gritty details for us 240 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,500 without us needing to like fully learn it. 241 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,300 And then that allowed us to really easily then say. 242 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:45,900 Okay, this is our core logic. Let's just only focus on the 243 00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,600 core logic and ignite will handle all the cosmos logic and 244 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,600 then after we focus on our core logic or like, okay, now let's 245 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,000 dive deep into the cosmos and land and see what's up. 246 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,100 So yeah. Cool. 247 00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:01,400 Yeah, I mean that's, that's something that I've also heard 248 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,200 from from other people. I guess like that. 249 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,700 Yeah, okay. The cost of CK, it does have 250 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:08,600 like a lot of boilerplate code that is necessary to launch a 251 00:13:08,608 --> 00:13:14,200 chain, but that ignites CLI allows you to forego having to 252 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,000 write a lot of that code, I guess a lot of people now are 253 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,200 also may be going like an even simpler route, which is building 254 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,300 things directly and cause them Azam, you're not like You know, 255 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:30,600 even for growing the cause of the CK, to some extent like with 256 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,400 initiatives like the cause I'm awesome SDK and I think it's 257 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,600 only going to get easier to start up a cosmos, A chain, a 258 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,000 chain in the future as as these tools become more and more. 259 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:45,600 Yeah, more more mature and and easier to leverage for sure. 260 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:47,800 Yeah. I mean like using Cosimo's and 261 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,100 smart contracts for a lot of your logic is actually really 262 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,000 smart. I would say, like, Mars is 263 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,800 probably the latest project that has done this. 264 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:56,800 We're basically they took all All the basically just took a 265 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,700 boilerplate cosmos SDK acting, and then they said, okay, cool. 266 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:02,800 This is like old stuff that we need and then they just put it 267 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,900 right into a smart contract. Just really nice and like, yeah, 268 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:10,900 like you said, cause Muslim SDK that Larry from the Mars team is 269 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:12,700 working on. That's also some really cool 270 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:14,000 stuff. I think there's actually like a 271 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,500 lot of cool joint stuff that you can do there to kind of optimize 272 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:21,800 everything. Yeah, so let's maybe just take a 273 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,300 bit of a step back here because we do want to argue about Hive. 274 00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:29,000 And and, but before we do so, since we've never actually done 275 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,700 an episode with Kai Vaughn on on epicenter, although I've 276 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:36,000 interviewed Fabiano on the interop and Felix does 277 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,100 interviewed you on the chorus one podcast. 278 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,500 I do think the for our listeners, hear it Bears, 279 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,100 remaining people who don't know about kind of what it is and 280 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:49,400 what problem you're solving. At a high level. 281 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:54,200 And and then we can dive into some of this other stuff wanted 282 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,200 to talk about which is you know, are we even Cosmos and some of 283 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,800 the use cases I think you know, for listeners who really want to 284 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,400 dive deeper into cos I've probably that won't be the the 285 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:10,200 sort of arch of this episode. But you should definitely listen 286 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,500 to my episode with Fabien on the interop or Felix's episode with 287 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,300 you. On the course one of bottle 288 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:19,300 caps, those are both great. Great resources. 289 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:21,300 You want to sort of like start at the ground level. 290 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:24,600 But yeah, go ahead. Okay, perfect. 291 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,500 Yes. So just to clarify, you want me 292 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,700 to kind of like talk about like what kind of exactly does? 293 00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:32,400 Yeah. Yeah just thought I'd high 294 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,000 levels of explaining what it is, what problem you're solving and 295 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,300 the different components. And we can, we can talk about 296 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:43,900 some of the other aspects, one to discuss today. so yeah, you 297 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,700 can really think of chi is building a massive decentralized 298 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:50,000 data link now that's like a lot of those words but basically 299 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,000 what it means is we've connected to a lot of major L ones and how 300 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,300 to's, you know, kind of like I mentioned, we've been working 301 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,200 since our like very beginning with, you know, a polka dots 302 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:05,400 Lonna near Cosmos Avalanche like you name it a lot of major L1 303 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,100 and L2 and what we do is we've actually built this proof of 304 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:13,200 stake Network that can connect to all these different 305 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,500 blockchains and then pars information from them. 306 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:20,100 So this could be as simple as really just block and 307 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,400 transaction information. It could be Ledger information 308 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,000 like account balances, and whatnot. 309 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:25,800 Or on the like more complex side. 310 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,700 This could be things like evm Trace is, you know, logs from 311 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:33,000 Smart, contracts Etc. And what happens is that this 312 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,300 validator set then independently, each one of the 313 00:16:35,308 --> 00:16:38,100 validators goes and connects to the blockchain and then they 314 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,700 fetch information from it. Do some sort of transformation 315 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:45,000 if needed on top of that data. And then what they do is they 316 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,500 use our consensus layer which is tenorman, comment, B of T, 317 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,200 paste. And then they basically say, 318 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,400 okay, listen like I have this piece of data. 319 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,400 Did you guys also get that same piece of data if they did? 320 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,700 Then what happens is? Then of course, that data is 321 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:04,000 then validated and then it's an automatically pushed to storage 322 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,700 Network. Like or we've basically what 323 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,099 that allows you to have is then that allows you to have one 324 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:14,000 single Network, which is Kai. Which has access to a lot of 325 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,700 data from a lot of different networks. 326 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:18,400 That's automatically completely trustless because it's already 327 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,500 been validated and it's stored forever due to our we that's 328 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,900 really cool because then you can build like a lot of things cross 329 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:28,200 chain. Also it helps a lot even like in 330 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,500 kind of like the more traditional aspects where 331 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:33,100 basically, I mean, Felix, we've been kind of talking to you 332 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,400 briefly about like an accounting tool, right? 333 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,300 Or basically, you know, you can use this on chain data that. 334 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,000 Not a lot of Of nodes or our PC. And points might necessarily 335 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,900 have to then really easily fetch, you know, data that you 336 00:17:47,908 --> 00:17:49,200 need on the accounting side of things. 337 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,100 There's a lot of different use cases, which I think will get 338 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:55,100 into later the a fundamentally we're building a massive 339 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:59,600 decentralized, a blink. Yeah, I think what's really 340 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:00,700 interesting there? Right? 341 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:04,800 Is that you have these sort of two roles like the protocol 342 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,900 layer and like the validator layer I think. 343 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:11,600 And can you maybe right? You mentioned the storage pools. 344 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:16,000 Can you sort of walk through a flow of someone? 345 00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:19,900 Maybe like, actually the entire lifecycle, actually, someone 346 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,300 uploading some data and then do they retrieve. 347 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,700 It would kind of again, or do I have to go directly to our? 348 00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:30,300 We've how would I use this? Of course, so we can kind of 349 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:33,400 start at the base layer so we actually have two layers in our 350 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,300 Network. And this is of course until vote 351 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:38,700 extensions is the thing and Cosmos, but basically for now we 352 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,100 have two layers so we have kind of the normal tender me. 353 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,000 In Cosmos layer that everyone is kind of familiar with where you 354 00:18:45,008 --> 00:18:48,400 have this validator set, uses delegate approval, steak tender 355 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,400 make kind of managers that all for us, reaches consensus, on 356 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,100 the state of our Network. That's what we call our 357 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:57,000 consensus layer, the names, pretty obvious, I would say. 358 00:18:57,300 --> 00:18:59,500 And then, what's on top of the consensus layer is actually 359 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,000 something, we like to call the protocol layer. 360 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,900 It's actually a separate validator says. 361 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,400 And this is actually just a kind of keep everything a little bit 362 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,700 more efficient, instead of building everything directly 363 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,200 into the tenement validators themselves, But the protocol 364 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,900 layer really manages data Park. I've so like you mentioned, we 365 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:20,500 have something that we like to call storage or data pools. 366 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,000 I always like to give the example of action, you can think 367 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,000 of it like liquidity pools almost is for example where each 368 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,600 liquidity pool, manages a pair of tokens? 369 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,800 Very, similarly, a storage pool or data pool ankh. 370 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,900 I've managed has a specific data Stream, So that just keeps it a 371 00:19:37,908 --> 00:19:40,000 lot easier. Because someday streams can be 372 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,800 more computationally expensive or Anything like that. 373 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,300 Just kind of like a separation of interest there. 374 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,500 We're basically, you can have a data pool for Solana data, you 375 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:51,900 could have a data pool for, you know, swamp, smart, contract 376 00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:56,300 events, anything like that the way, like now kind of zooming in 377 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,600 directly into like a specific storage pool. 378 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,500 The way that it works is, it's a round-robin approach. 379 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,500 Very similar to ten women. Actually, we're a validator gets 380 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:08,300 randomly selected. We call this validator, 381 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:12,700 actually, the uploader. So, this is normally Acoustic 382 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:14,400 networks called like a block proposer. 383 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,000 But in this case, we're not actually proposing a block, 384 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,500 we're uploading data. So that's why we call it the 385 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:23,800 uploader. The uploaders job is basically 386 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:28,100 to kind of propose the piece of data that they think is valid. 387 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,200 So they go off, talk to the blockchain. 388 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,700 Let's just say, for example, Salama? 389 00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:33,000 Right. So they go off to Solana. 390 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,300 Say Hey, listen Solana. I want blocks 10 to 100 391 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,300 something like that, right? It's a lot bigger snapshots than 392 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:42,400 that, of course. And so basically, See what 393 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,200 happens is the uploader fetches a snapshot of blocks from 394 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,700 Solana. And then it proposes it to this 395 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,300 validator set on the protocol layer. 396 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,300 And then, and then I basically they say, Hey listen, I have 397 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:56,200 blocks, you know, 1 to 100 of Savannah. 398 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,000 Are these blocks? Correct? 399 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,000 And so then each of the other validators that are not the 400 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,900 uploader, in this case, they then go off independently using 401 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:08,800 their own connections to Solana and validates to make sure that 402 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,800 you know blocks 1 to 100 are actually correct. 403 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,000 They do then, you know, there's a voting process. 404 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Again, very similar to Tender mint, mint proof stake in 405 00:21:17,008 --> 00:21:19,800 general. There's a voting process. 406 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,200 And then if you know more than, you know, 67% of, you know, the 407 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,900 validators voted, yes. Then the piece of data is 408 00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:29,300 actually correct. Once the piece of data is 409 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:33,600 correct, then of course it's then uploaded and like pushed 410 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,300 off to our we've we're going to be onboarding a lot of other 411 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:40,700 Storage Solutions soon as well. So it's not just our we've that 412 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:42,300 we support. We kind of have a Huh. 413 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,700 Cool. Little wrapper around any 414 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:47,400 storage layer. So you can really easily 415 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,800 integrate ipfs or file coin or storage or, you know, Green 416 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,100 Field, which is like the new by Nancy Vaughan, for example. 417 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:56,000 Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the life 418 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,100 cycle of the data being validated. 419 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,800 On the retrieval side, we kind of offer a few retrieve. 420 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,700 The products of course, you know, you independently can just 421 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,700 go directly kind of talk to Kai Vint. 422 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,900 I will say, Hey, listen, if you want this piece of data, it's in 423 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:14,700 this, are we've translated. Action ID, and then you can then 424 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,100 go and fetch it from our weave and do all that fun stuff 425 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:21,600 yourself, but we kind of offer two products right now. 426 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,300 One is kind of a more B2B product more Enterprise product. 427 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:29,500 For basically, we automatically kind of do all that internal 428 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,300 fetching for you. We're basically all you need to 429 00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:35,600 do and it's powered by air by the way, which is actually quite 430 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,400 cool. It's really easy way to kind of 431 00:22:37,408 --> 00:22:41,900 connect a data stream to any web to data infrastructure. 432 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:44,500 So just be mongodb it could be Something more complex, like a 433 00:22:44,508 --> 00:22:47,300 Kafka queue or snowflake or anything like that. 434 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,600 But basically, it's a service that we provide were basically 435 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,500 you just say, Hey, listen, this is how I want the data and it's 436 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:57,800 like an ETL Pipeline and then we will automatically give the data 437 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,700 back to you, of course, like a little bit more like on chain B 438 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:05,500 to C customer product that we're going to be offering soon as 439 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,100 actually our Oracle which would be really cool because it's 440 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,300 powered by IBC. Cool. 441 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,400 Yeah. What? 442 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,700 So what is the leverage IBC here? 443 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,000 And like, I guess I'm yeah, I'd like to maybe transition a 444 00:23:20,008 --> 00:23:23,900 little bit here and to, you know, how are we are. 445 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:28,200 Sorry, how kind of connects Cosmos to our we've, so, yeah. 446 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,400 How do you leverage our BC and maybe describe Hawkeyes? 447 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,300 I've sort of sits in between Cosmos and are we even in some 448 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:38,400 way? Yeah, for sure. 449 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:41,800 I'm so kind of, we kind of set. More like on top of them. 450 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,700 Right? Because you have our, we've met 451 00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:45,300 net. And then you have like of 452 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,900 course, our consensus layer and then our protocol layer kind of 453 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,500 like sits on top of both of them and then connects both of them 454 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:53,800 individually. Yeah. 455 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,000 So like there's no like we didn't create IVC clients 456 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,700 between our we've and between are even our Cosmos chain. 457 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,500 That's actually incredibly interesting because our we was 458 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:10,600 proof of work so that would be fundamentally incredibly Going 459 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,400 to create an IBC client between the two of them. 460 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,000 But anyways, that's like four. Maybe five 2.0, or something 461 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,100 crazy like that. Anyway so the way that it works 462 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:21,800 right now is like I kind of mentioned before that uploader 463 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,600 has the job of you know, not only kind of like pushing the 464 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,700 data to our we've but also reaching consensus on that piece 465 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:32,200 of data using our tender meant blockchain. 466 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:34,600 And so it's kind of like a connection between the two of 467 00:24:34,608 --> 00:24:37,500 them where basically the uploader first uploads that 468 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,300 piece of data to our weave and then the validators and reach 469 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,900 Census on that piece of data and then if that data is incorrect 470 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,300 and basically the kind of network will then like store. 471 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,200 Hey, listen, this are we've transaction hash or you know 472 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,900 this ipfs CID is actually validated and is correct and 473 00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:59,700 this is the metadata for it and that's kind of how we connect to 474 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,900 our, we even do that. I like the IVC side of things 475 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,300 that's kind of more going into like our Oracle product which 476 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:09,200 will leverage IBC to basically be able to. 477 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:14,200 You just send As a token like for payment, like you just sound 478 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,400 like, I've tokens or any governance enabled, the payment 479 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,900 method, and then you basically just do an IBC transfer and then 480 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:23,900 utilizing the memo field of that IBC transfer. 481 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,100 You can basically initiate a query for any data that type is 482 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,400 archived. So you could basically say, Hey 483 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,200 listen, I'm going to pay, you know, 15 again. 484 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:35,200 Not be real numbers here. But like, I'm just going to pay 485 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,400 15, and then I would like to fetch, you know, Solana block. 486 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:44,800 X 1 to 1000, for example. And then what would then happen 487 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,900 is, that would be sent by IBC and then of course, Skype has 488 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,100 that piece of data. So then using entertain queries 489 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,400 and we just send the response back and then you could now have 490 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000 completely trustless, so long, the blocks on your Cosmos chain 491 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,600 and then you can do whatever you want with that. 492 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,900 But yeah, that's kind of how we leverage IBC and then also 493 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,000 that's how we kind of connect us to our we as well. 494 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,800 Can you maybe expand a bit in terms of you said, basically the 495 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,200 proposer uploads the data, and then the validators have to sort 496 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,100 of validate if it's correct. Does that mean? 497 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:21,200 Like all the validators have to download that state of that 498 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,700 chain or that that program, or whatever it is. 499 00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:32,900 So yes, like at the end of the day, it's really up to the 500 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:36,300 validator to decide how they actually connect to the network 501 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,900 itself, right? Because fundamentally, if they 502 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:43,100 receive invalid data, then of course, they're going to be 503 00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:44,900 proposing with like invalid data. 504 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:47,000 And then of course, they're subject to a slashing and like 505 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,100 it's a major recession. And so it's kind of we've left 506 00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:54,800 it up to the validators or basically like we expect certain 507 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,600 RPC and point for certain different Networks. 508 00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:00,600 But fundamentally how the balladeer is actually connected, 509 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,300 so that is up to them, right? So, you know, a lot of the times 510 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,700 and this is what we encourage, of course, is, you know, running 511 00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:09,100 your own node in the network, right? 512 00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:12,400 Just for like Optimum security. But of course you know, if you 513 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,900 want to go for like the more hosted coinbase cloud or block 514 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,100 Damon approach, like that's also okay. 515 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:21,500 Like we don't like put like a exact architecture requirement 516 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,900 on it but at the end of the day it's really up to the validator 517 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:27,600 to decide like what risk they're willing to take care. 518 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,100 The like the important thing though is like we make sure to 519 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,700 like double check to make sure like where the data is from. 520 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:37,100 And so like if everyone just using like infra for example, is 521 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,000 like an RPC endpoint, then of course, that's going to be 522 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,200 problematic. And so we have checks in place 523 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,700 to make sure that it is from many different data sources. 524 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,000 But yeah, of course, like how the validate actually connects 525 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,400 to the network, they can either run their own node. 526 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,800 They can use an RBC provider, something like that. 527 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,600 Could you leverage and you know and I have you thought about 528 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:04,400 encouraging folks to leverage a decentralized RPC provider like 529 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,800 like lava for instance, I think there's some other ones a 530 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,700 Gateway while they made comment. For example, not pocket. 531 00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:14,600 I mean I'm sorry you have pockets. 532 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000 I know. I just appreciate it. 533 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:19,300 No like yeah. I think of course there's 534 00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:21,300 definitely some like cool collaborations to be down there. 535 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:23,400 Actually like law was definitely very interesting because there 536 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,700 are also Oh, based in Cosmos. So I wonder if they're connected 537 00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:28,700 to really get a little bit more Synergy there because of course, 538 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:30,900 they're basing Cosmo. So IBC kind of connects us. 539 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:35,000 All right. So like haven't directly thought 540 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,100 about it. To be honest. 541 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,100 It was just like we just kind of settled on this architecture for 542 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:41,100 now. We wanted to get main that out 543 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:43,400 as soon as possible. But of course, going forward. 544 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,000 This is definitely something that we want to look into, 545 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,800 right, because it's like, if we can even decentralize the RPC 546 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,900 side of this, it would be perfect world, right? 547 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,900 And so like, yeah, we've done everything that we can to 548 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:55,300 decentralize on our side. Of course, definitely further. 549 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:58,200 Collaborations are definitely more open for that. 550 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:02,000 Okay, cool. I want to talk about our we've a 551 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,800 little bit like, I have a, I have a close friend who you 552 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,800 might know, who's they're building a chord. 553 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:15,800 Yeah, of course they and and, you know, he, he shells are 554 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,700 eased me like all the time and I kind of get it but I still like 555 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,700 also kind of don't get it or I don't really get you know how 556 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:28,400 economically a how it works like with highly cannot it works how 557 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:35,100 the smart contracts I work and and so yeah, I'd like to, I'd 558 00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:39,700 like you to maybe self once and for all for me, how are we smart 559 00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,200 contracts work? Because they're fundamentally 560 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,400 different from another form of smart contract. 561 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,700 And what I've understood is that are we've conquered smart 562 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:52,600 contracts are executed off chain and settled on chain. 563 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,500 And so I've got about that far but it just sort of breaks my 564 00:29:57,500 --> 00:29:58,200 brain. Yeah. 565 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,400 So are we smart contracts? Definitely something interesting 566 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,000 to wrap around and I to be honest, I don't exactly call 567 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,600 them smart contracts because and we can get into my later. 568 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,600 But let me first kind of touch it. 569 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,700 Briefly on Mike, what are we is and how it works. 570 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,300 So it's a proof-of-work. Blockchain been around since 571 00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:19,700 2018, lots of, you know, project to use it, it's really big and 572 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,100 like the empty space especially because, you know, if you don't 573 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:26,100 pay your IPS alone, well, sorry. Everything is gone, right? 574 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,300 So there was like a mass of adoption, you know, they 575 00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:31,900 partnered with meta For example, they're also partnered like on 576 00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:35,900 the moron chain side of things with and blinking. 577 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,100 Now just as I was about to say that like the main like Solana 578 00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:42,400 and ft Marketplace stuff like that I met effects. 579 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,600 There we go. And so basically the way that it 580 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,400 works is it's not actually a blockchain. 581 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,800 It's a block weave which is really cool because what happens 582 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,000 is every single piece of data that is mind into our. 583 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,600 We've what happens is that there's basically a Pointer back 584 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,200 to a previous data item that has previously been uploaded to our. 585 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,000 We, so basically, every single block points to a previous 586 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,500 block, which is why it's a block will weave, which is actually 587 00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:16,200 quite cool because that ensures that there's always like some 588 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,800 access to some historical piece of data on our beef, right? 589 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:26,300 So if you are the current minor of a block in, are we if you 590 00:31:26,308 --> 00:31:28,800 don't have access to the randomly selected? 591 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,800 Of data, then you can produce the block and then it moves on 592 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,100 to the next person, right? So basically encourages the 593 00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:38,000 entire network to have as much of the data as possible. 594 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,800 The way that the incentive model actually works is quite 595 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,100 interesting. So, you know, it's proof of 596 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,200 work, so there's just a fundamental block payout per 597 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,100 block. I don't exactly remember what 598 00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:49,500 that is and something I think that there's a having mechanism 599 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,500 in place Etc. But what's really cool is the 600 00:31:52,508 --> 00:31:56,500 transaction fees or calculated with this really cool Crow 601 00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,500 equation, which uses and I quote this This because it's not 602 00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,300 really Moore's law, but it's like a similar concept of 603 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,500 Moore's Law. We're basically, it calculates 604 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,900 how much it's going to cost to store this piece of data. 605 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,100 So let's say that your archiving like one gigabyte, right? 606 00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,700 So it are we've basically the network calculates how much it's 607 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:21,400 going to cost for the next 200 years to store 1 GB. 608 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,700 And then basically what happens is that at that 200 year mark 609 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,700 There's like a slow Decay curve that happens. 610 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:33,600 Which basically shit says overtime SSD and HDD should be 611 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,200 getting better and better and better. 612 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,700 And there should be like a significant cost reduction. 613 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,800 We're basically after 200 years or so give or take. 614 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:46,800 That data should be fundamentally free to store. 615 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,500 And so basically what happens is on are we if you pay for 200 616 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,300 years of storage up front and that's what your transaction fee 617 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,100 is like transaction cost to store your piece of data and 618 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,100 then what happens is that actually doesn't get paid out to 619 00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:03,600 the validators are starting up validators, the miners in the 620 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,600 network but that actually then gets put into a block reward 621 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,400 pool. I forget the exact name for it, 622 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:13,800 but what's cool about that is then the basically you have this 623 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,800 like Like almost like a community pool Cosmos, right? 624 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,000 You just have like this treasury of like an insane amount of are 625 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,200 we? That's just like sitting there 626 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,200 locked and what's cool is the network automatically? 627 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,100 Calculates, if the current level of data on the network? 628 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,700 If it's actually like the block pay out? 629 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,700 Like the normal approval work, block pay out if that's not 630 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:40,100 enough incentives for the miners to automatically cover the cost 631 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,700 of storing all the data. And if it's not covering all the 632 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:47,000 costs, then it Matically does a distribution of that massive 633 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,700 treasury, which is really cool. Because then over time, you 634 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:54,400 know, let's say, for example, one year storage costs goes up 635 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,300 by lat then automatically that would then incentivize the 636 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:01,300 ballot, like the miners still in the network, or if it gets 637 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:04,400 cheaper than vice versa, right? So, that's kind of like 638 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,900 fundamentally, how are we Works in a nutshell and I can clarify 639 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:10,100 anything else if that was too complicated. 640 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,800 Okay, smart contracts, though, and I don't know what to call. 641 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,199 All right, so smart reef is like the official name for it. 642 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:22,199 Like you mentioned, they're not like there's no execution on 643 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,000 chain. So in, you know, in the case of 644 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,300 Solana, you know, cause a malls and even and, you know, the 645 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:32,400 Solana VM like basically, every single normal smart contracts 646 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,800 platform, the way that it works is you deploy the code on chain 647 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:39,900 and then you interact with the code with the transaction. 648 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:43,199 And then, that transaction has a result, the changes, the state 649 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,699 of that, Code and all that happens on. 650 00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:49,100 Chain the way, the smart weave works is fundamentally different 651 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:51,000 to that. What happens is, you deploy the 652 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,100 code. And so you basically have these 653 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:55,300 see, no contract eye candy, if you will. 654 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,900 And then what you do is you just interact with it by just sending 655 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:02,000 transactions. But those transactions are 656 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,800 literally just like normal, are we transactions? 657 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,200 There's nothing special about them except for like the tags in 658 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,000 place. So like you can then tell that 659 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,100 it's a smart, we've transaction But if you ever want to access 660 00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:17,400 the state of the smart contract, it's not stored on chain. 661 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,500 What you? What needs to happen is off 662 00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:22,100 chain. You then need to basically 663 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:25,100 create this execution environment, where basically, 664 00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:29,500 you fetch the code, and then from Genesis, you need to replay 665 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,600 all the transactions. This is actually one of the 666 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,400 reasons why we switched away from Smart. 667 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,000 We've because of course, you know, having to maintain almost 668 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,200 like a caching layer of chain for your smart. 669 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:45,400 Tract is actually quite intensive and completely 670 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,000 centralized. There is definitely some things 671 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,600 going on. Now, in our, we get, like, are 672 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,800 trying to solve this problem, making it a little bit more 673 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,000 decentralized. But fundamentally, if you have 674 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,800 off chain computation of States, there's not a whole lot that you 675 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,000 can do there, which is like, kind of the main reason why we 676 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,400 kind of Switched away from that. And then went to the evm based 677 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:11,900 smart contract again and like that's not like throwing any 678 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,400 shape and That just like explaining how it works, which 679 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,800 is just like off chain execution. 680 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:20,500 Yeah, I think like fundamentally are we was really great layer 0, 681 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,000 where basically you can just throw any piece of data that you 682 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,000 want to are. We and it handles out really 683 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,800 well. I think smart contracts does 684 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,200 have a little bit of time that it needs to like grow into like 685 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,200 a fully developed ecosystem. Primary sensor you're basically 686 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,200 saying right? Like are we still very useful as 687 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,700 like this data storage layer but essentially with the smart we've 688 00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:42,800 it sort of trying to also compete I guess on a smart 689 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,400 contract level it. But that might like exactly like 690 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,500 yeah. It's like like like like for me 691 00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:50,900 are we going to be trying to do a little bit too much with smart 692 00:36:50,900 --> 00:36:52,900 contracts, right? It's like they've really and I 693 00:36:52,908 --> 00:36:56,100 think they've done a really really, really good job with 694 00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:57,900 dealing with a data scientist, right? 695 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,400 But like, and like, that's why. I said they were great layer 0. 696 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,000 You can really throw whatever data you want at argue. 697 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,800 And it's like a perfect economic model, that's great. 698 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,000 We got like, fundamentally it just like smart contracts on top 699 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,800 of it. Treating it more like a layer 1 700 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,900 layer 2, like model, not quite there yet. 701 00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,900 Yeah. When when someone describes sort 702 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:23,800 of Are We smart contracts to me. It sounds you were talking 703 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,500 earlier about, you know, our previous our previous Enterprise 704 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:30,700 blockchain building days. It sounds very similar to 705 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:32,300 something. We're trying to build back then 706 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:40,000 which which is, you know, this this sort of off chain execution 707 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,400 on chain settlement, but there's not even believe settlement with 708 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:46,900 smart week. That's Thing. 709 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,700 Yeah. Or like whatever. 710 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:52,400 I mean, whatever you want to call it, the gone chain 711 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,700 notarization, I guess. Yeah. 712 00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:59,300 And then the other aspect about our we've that I still have a 713 00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:00,700 hard time. Wrapping my head around is like 714 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:05,400 the economics of, you know, you're talking about this, this 715 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,300 storage. Like this on chain storage. 716 00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:09,800 And yeah, sure. I guess we can assume we should 717 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,300 assume that storage costs go down over time. 718 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:17,700 I think that's you know a safe assumption to make there is one 719 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:22,300 thing about are we that I find a little bit weird is like this a 720 00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:27,900 this this inability to delete things like Yeah, I can kind of 721 00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:30,300 Step In My like like fundamentally that was the first 722 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,300 thing that I thought about when I thought of our was like yeah 723 00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,200 this is this is great. If there are only good people in 724 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,500 the world, there's also lots of bad people in the world to like 725 00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:41,400 this is obviously something that could go terribly wrong. 726 00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,900 So like the thing is is that actually built into each. 727 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:49,800 Our we've note, there's actually kind of like a blacklist that 728 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,500 you can put in more like a block list. 729 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:55,400 Now that it's been renamed, there's a block list that you 730 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,600 can put in, we're basically pieces of data or content that, 731 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,300 you know, is like, in fact vulnerable or malicious or, you 732 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:09,900 know, illegal, treading lightly here, what you can do is you can 733 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,000 then, like inside your Arduino, just Choose not to store that 734 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,800 piece of data and was actually really cool is that if more than 735 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,400 51% of the network has a specific transaction blocked, 736 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,800 then we'll actually dropped from consensus. 737 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,700 Assuming it's not encrypted exactly assuming that it's not 738 00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:31,900 encrypted, right? And so there is a way to delete 739 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:34,900 data, right? We're basically the majority of 740 00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:37,800 the network does not have the piece of data, right? 741 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,200 But yeah, of course that does imply that it has to be 742 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,500 encrypted. Is sorry, it has to be decrypted 743 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:45,400 and a lot of things have to apply there. 744 00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:48,000 I think they're actually trying to spin up like a dowel to 745 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,800 manage this a little bit, but yeah, yeah, I was also wondering 746 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,900 like, do you, is it actually clear like, who runs the are we 747 00:39:56,900 --> 00:39:59,200 from Network? Who are like, the can you like, 748 00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:03,500 traceback how, who produced, how many nodes and sort of see how 749 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:07,500 much control there is from certain entities or something 750 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:08,600 like that? Like, I guess how you have 751 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,000 voting power in proof of stake, sort of To be honest, I don't 752 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,700 actually know so you can like check who the peers are in like 753 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:19,200 but, but like that's more like the active peers in the network, 754 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,900 right? So I get the guess I gotta and 755 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,300 maybe this is just like, not a problem, but like definitely 756 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:26,400 like a design flaw in proof of work or basically there's like 757 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,400 no roads way of like, Who's actually the validator sets 758 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,400 right now, right? So I actually don't know, I 759 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,900 think like so of course you can check, who is the minor of every 760 00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:39,200 single block. Of course, I would take a long 761 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,200 time, but you can and you can kind of go back and see like 762 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,400 what has been like what that has been produced where but yeah 763 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:47,800 improver work. There is really no way of like 764 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,800 checking who is in the current set if you will which does 765 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,900 actually set up a little bit because I would actually also a 766 00:40:53,908 --> 00:40:55,900 security little bit better to write. 767 00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:58,700 I think it's one of the core kind of benefits of fuglsig, 768 00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:00,100 right? If you have slashing that, you 769 00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:05,000 can go back and like, destroy stake of someone in versus like, 770 00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:08,500 poof world where you can't burn down the server farm. 771 00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:14,200 So, like, I've heard that comparison that's comparing like 772 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,100 Bitcoin. And I guess it also applies to 773 00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:17,600 our way of, to a certain degree here. 774 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,500 But yeah, that's that's a nice Excursion. 775 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,200 I guess we can we can take it back a bit, too. 776 00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:28,300 I mean, you already also mentioned right. 777 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:30,300 Like, I have Other data storage solution. 778 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:31,800 So that's I think also like very cool, right? 779 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:37,500 It's very abstracted there, and I think that's very useful, but 780 00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:42,100 maybe we can also talk about, you know, now you have the I saw 781 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:45,300 on the website like something on the road map, like KY F version 782 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:47,700 2. Can you maybe expand a bit? 783 00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,000 Like what what else is coming there? 784 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:53,800 Of course. So I guess like yeah the main 785 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,600 thing involved there's actually the Oracle this like IPC enabled 786 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:03,200 data query with that, quite a lot of stuff actually comes with 787 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,500 it, unlike the optimization of the protocol layer. 788 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,100 So you know like I mentioned at the very beginning, we have two 789 00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:12,400 layers when to vote extensions are release. 790 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,700 We're definitely going to look into kind of combining those two 791 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:19,500 layers because right now there is a little bit of a fight 792 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,200 between the two validator That's right because it's like 793 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,900 whichever or valid are set has the biggest apy right like 794 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,700 talking about like just like delegator is for this pure sake 795 00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:32,500 of earning rewards, right? Of course, there's going to be 796 00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:35,700 like a little bit of a steak fight going on there if you 797 00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:37,600 will. And so of course, you know, 798 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,100 we're looking into Solutions, like superfood, staking and 799 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:42,500 whatnot. But long-term of course, 800 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:46,900 combining those two values sets is definitely something on the 801 00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,300 road map for sure, and that's kind of fundamentally. 802 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,900 What goes along with kind of Another thing, as well as like, 803 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,400 right now, the Oracle is only allowed to like query. 804 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,200 What we store directly on our chain, right? 805 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,000 Which is more like a summary of what stored on are we. 806 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,200 So let's say for example that we you know, done a massive 807 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,900 snapshot like ten thousand blocks of Cosmos, right? 808 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,200 What happens is that all of that data is stored on our we've but 809 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,800 we only store like the headers or the hashes of each block on 810 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,500 our chain, right? And that's just strictly because 811 00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:22,500 like we're not building It's like are we if we can't handle 812 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:26,000 all the data, right? And so basically what the Oracle 813 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,200 can currently query for right now and this is going to be 814 00:43:29,207 --> 00:43:33,200 released soon is basically just like the headers and whatnot, 815 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,000 the data but like long term, we really want to make sure that 816 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,400 like, what will happen is, you can just do an oracle request. 817 00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:43,800 And then our Network handles, all the going off, talking to 818 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,500 our, we've indexing, the data and giving you a really nice 819 00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:49,900 response. Also, I'm kind of tied into to 820 00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:52,800 Chi 2.0 there. Of course, there's like a lot of 821 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,700 other stuff that I probably can't talk about, but that's 822 00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:56,600 like, what I'm really excited about for sure. 823 00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,400 And like, yeah, it's actually mostly tied around kind of like, 824 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,500 bringing the queering process on chain, with the oracle. 825 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,900 Right. Maybe also, I guess we sort of 826 00:44:07,908 --> 00:44:11,500 went into it a bit, but I'm sort of wondering what if there is a 827 00:44:11,508 --> 00:44:17,600 mismatch, I guess between. the data provided or like there's no 828 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:23,200 consensus and then there is There is a slashing you said, is 829 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,700 there like some dispute mechanism? 830 00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:31,100 If that like sort of was actually the right data or how 831 00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:35,400 do you like sort of settle that? Yeah, so the way that it works 832 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,000 is you have the uploader there, you know, of course, you know, 833 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:46,400 proposing a chunk of data. If the uploader has okay. 834 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,200 Now, this is now getting into like now, how proof of stake 835 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,900 Works, which is basically each validator, will then say, okay, 836 00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,500 is that correct? If more than 51% of the 837 00:44:56,508 --> 00:44:59,800 validators say yes, this is the correct piece of data. 838 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,200 Then that data goes through what happens which is actually quite 839 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,600 interesting as all the validators that didn't Say that, 840 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,900 that data is correct. We basically put them on like a 841 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,400 watch list if you will will. Basically, we give them like a 842 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,100 point and after a certain number of points, they actually do get 843 00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:20,800 slashed. So if those validators that are 844 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,900 actually voting in the minority, if they keep voting in the 845 00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:27,700 minority for a wild and there will be a slashing event there. 846 00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:32,900 But there's not really a dispute mechanism after the fact just 847 00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:36,400 because we want instant finality to go along with tender Mint or 848 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,000 basically a piece of data while it's reaching consensus is still 849 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,200 undecided. But once consensus is reached 850 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,000 it's finalized and that's when you know that the data is valid 851 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,300 or invalid so there's not a dispute mechanism in place but 852 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,400 basically we do have mechanisms where basically the majority. 853 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,700 Is, what is actually happening and like that's what reaches 854 00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:59,600 consensus in the minority. We always keep our eye on the 855 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,400 minority to make sure that that doesn't get out of hand or out 856 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,500 of control. All right, let's go. 857 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,000 So it's sort of like a multi round game that you're playing 858 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,500 seconds. Okay, cool. 859 00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:14,000 So, let's get into use cases here. 860 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,400 I mean, you know, I think there's a lot of use cases and 861 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,900 we already touched a little bit on on some, but yeah, maybe 862 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:23,200 describe, you know, which are the the ones that you're most 863 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,900 excited about. And maybe also, which are the 864 00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:32,600 least obvious ones that people should be thinking about or, you 865 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,500 know? Yeah, for sure. 866 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,700 Let's do it. So yeah. 867 00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:41,100 So I mean, I've kind of already touched on like, our ETL 868 00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,200 pipeline, which is like, The more, you know, Enterprise 869 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,000 focused solution that we provide that this is going to be more 870 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,700 like, you know, indexing partners. 871 00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:50,800 And, you know, accounting tools and whatnot. 872 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,500 People are really want access to like large amounts of historical 873 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,000 formation. Of course, you have the Oracle, 874 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,500 which is like one chain and that, you know, can be, you 875 00:46:58,508 --> 00:47:03,000 know, I mean on chain, Oracle information is like powerful and 876 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,900 like smart contracts down to like the core layer of 877 00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:12,100 blockchains to kind of the unexpected use case because It 878 00:47:12,100 --> 00:47:15,100 kind of ties into the Oracle a little bit is where actually 879 00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:19,500 partnered with say so like say networking Cosmos and it's 880 00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:22,900 actually quite interesting because they want to use us to 881 00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:27,300 fetch like weather information and like sporting information 882 00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:30,500 and okay for people that don't know what to say is it's 883 00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:34,900 basically trying to create a market around anything and so 884 00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,200 what we've done at kaiba's we made ourselves so General that 885 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,900 we don't actually need to store like like we don't. 886 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,400 Only need to store plotting data. 887 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,700 We can also store web to data as long as there's a way of 888 00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:49,500 validating it. So basically, meaning it has to 889 00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:52,100 be deterministic data, right? Can't be changing every other 890 00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:55,000 minute. So, for example, like weather is 891 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,000 a good example of like, okay, like a weather not predictable 892 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,500 weather but like you know, historical weather, you know, 893 00:48:01,500 --> 00:48:05,000 and stuff like that. That's of course, you know, we 894 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,300 can handle and what say wants to use us for is basically they 895 00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:11,600 want to fetch information like that kind of a little bit 896 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,100 information. In, you wouldn't have actually 897 00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,500 expected and then they want to create a betting market around 898 00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:18,700 that, which is, you know, cool, right. 899 00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:21,300 Like definitely something I wouldn't have expected but you 900 00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:24,200 know it's cool. Not unless of course, you know 901 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,000 like more the expected use cases that I'm quite excited about is 902 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,800 you know we're working with quite a few validators. 903 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,800 Like course one for example. And what we're doing right now 904 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:41,200 is we're coming up with really like clean way of sinking a 905 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,500 tender moment notice. Not just 10 different notes but 906 00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:46,100 like other notes from all the networks as well, sinking at 907 00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:49,400 Enderman node using types data, which is really cool. 908 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,700 Because right now, if you want to sink a note, improve the 909 00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,300 steak you have to either use those trusted snapshot. 910 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,400 And you kind of have to just Trust whoever gave us a snapshot 911 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,900 to you, that it's actually correct or you can sync from 912 00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:07,200 Genesis, which is like a multi-day to multi-week process 913 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,000 depending on how like, old the network is. 914 00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:13,800 And so yeah. So because we have all this data 915 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,900 already stored historically. It's really easy to then just 916 00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:19,400 like connect a tender meat. No directly to Kai. 917 00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:22,000 And then sink directly from there and not just Enderman, but 918 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,700 also like near and other networks as well, that's kind of 919 00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:27,600 use. I'm most excited about because 920 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,300 that's like the initial use case that I started Cog with which is 921 00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:33,900 basically like this exact thing and so kind of seeing it come to 922 00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:35,300 fruition. Now is really exciting. 923 00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:40,800 Yeah. So I wonder if this address is 924 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,600 also another issue, so the state sink, use case, when I talk to 925 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,800 Babylon, they were saying they also kind of blew my mind. 926 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,700 And and and and pointed to the fact that in the a lot of 927 00:49:55,700 --> 00:50:01,100 Cosmos, And there has to be this kind of canonical, you know, 928 00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:05,100 checkpoint where validators have to have to agree on. 929 00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:08,700 Like, what is the most, the, the sort of state that everybody 930 00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:12,400 agrees is valid? And in a lot of, I don't 931 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,200 remember where, but, like, somewhere in some costumes, 932 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,500 documentation, it says, that people should agree on this on 933 00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:23,300 this state, like, on off change channels, like Twitter, or what 934 00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:25,700 sighs it's like so fucking and yeah. 935 00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:29,800 Yeah so this is like social consensus and so with with 936 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,500 Babylon what they what they allow is basically to you know 937 00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:39,800 create a hash of State at some point and then like notarized 938 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,800 that on the Bitcoin blockchain or sort of committed to the 939 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,800 Bitcoin blockchain and the way they describe it is that like it 940 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,300 would eliminate this this social consensus need but also 941 00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:56,100 potentially eliminate the need for long on bonding periods for 942 00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:58,500 steak. And force taking, you know, for 943 00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:01,200 steak basically you know for delegator has to on steak 944 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,700 because we know that there's social consensus around like 945 00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:08,000 State being valid at up until this point does the sky. 946 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:15,800 I've also address The same problem and could it also reduce 947 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,900 on bonding periods Force? Taking the same way that say, 948 00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:23,800 Bob Babylon is, you know, of trying to to add as a feature. 949 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,700 It's nasty. Yeah. 950 00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:30,100 Because I've like I've talked about Vaughn team many times and 951 00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:32,700 exactly the same thing, you know, social consensus. 952 00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:37,000 This is why you should never ever, ever, ever ever have a 953 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,100 voting period in Cosmos longer than the Unbound. 954 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,000 Ting period because in massive problems happen. 955 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,200 Same thing. Why there should be a like a 956 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,000 clear ratio between IBC trust periods. 957 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,100 And the mm bonding period. Like there's a lot of like 958 00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:55,000 numbers that you should really not play around with that much 959 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,500 and Cosmos and it's yeah, it's hidden somewhere in the 960 00:51:57,500 --> 00:52:00,000 documentation that's like yeah. I'm like worst-case just re 961 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,400 social consensus, right? Which is like cool guys but no 962 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:07,500 and so it's like yeah I don't actually know. 963 00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:09,900 So like I never really thought about it in that way. 964 00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:16,700 It depends because right? So we are technically anchoring 965 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:22,200 data of these chains on our, we've but it kind of boils down 966 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:28,900 to fundamentally the market cap or like security level of the 967 00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:33,200 Anchor Point, right? So kind of Babylons value-add 968 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,200 there is a basically Bitcoin. Well, It's Bitcoin, right? 969 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,400 So like it's the biggest market cap in crypto period, right? 970 00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:43,400 So, although, yes, we are an anchor. 971 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,500 I think fundamentally anchoring on our we are. 972 00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:49,100 We've has a smaller market cap than I like osmosis for example 973 00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:50,000 or something like that. Right? 974 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,500 So like yes, although we could definitely be an anchor. 975 00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:56,100 It's kind of missing that little period there which is just like 976 00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:01,100 You know. The the the actual like the 977 00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:03,200 market cap comparison is done actually quite there. 978 00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:06,900 What could be interesting though is like creating a storage 979 00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:09,300 back-end Fork. I've we're basically we go off 980 00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:11,300 and talk to bitcoin. That could be something cool. 981 00:53:11,500 --> 00:53:12,900 Right? Where basically, you know, like 982 00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:16,500 again, we don't want to make competitors here just to be 983 00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:18,700 click, but just like thinking out loud. 984 00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:20,600 Like, I think that there would actually be way that we could 985 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,800 then, you know, instead of going off and talking to our. 986 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,900 We like I mentioned we can talk to a little bit different 987 00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:26,900 layers. We could then go off and talk to 988 00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,700 bitcoin and then we could then be an anchor. 989 00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:30,500 From Bitcoin some of the Babylon. 990 00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:33,400 Interesting use case haven't thought about it yet but very 991 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,000 cool. Right? 992 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,700 I guess the difference also with Babylon, you'll probably only 993 00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:43,100 see if your state is sort of correct, right? 994 00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:45,900 You just check the header if it like matches but you can't 995 00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:50,300 actually get the data from the Bitcoin Network, right? 996 00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:52,800 You would still someone has to send. 997 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,400 Yes you you what we would do is we would first validate the 998 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:02,200 entire state of the blockchain. We could then push the headers 999 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,400 to bitcoin and still store the To the blockchain, like the rest 1000 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,500 of the full data on. Are we, if we could kind of do a 1001 00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:11,000 mix doubt, it should be really cool then? 1002 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,200 Right? Because you have like the 1003 00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:15,600 anchoring and security side of things on bitcoin but then you 1004 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,800 can still access the validate the data are we cool right? 1005 00:54:21,900 --> 00:54:30,000 We use case, we figured it out here on epicenter perfect and 1006 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,600 the any other any other use cases the your you're 1007 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,000 particularly interested in Or bullish on or would like to see 1008 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,300 people build using Kies. Now, if the top of my head, I'm 1009 00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:42,900 sure there are. I'm sure that I'm missing some 1010 00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:44,500 for sure. I think I'd like to do use 1011 00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:48,400 cases, I mentioned, for sure are, definitely kind of the main 1012 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,500 ones that were, you know, really excited about, of course, you 1013 00:54:51,500 --> 00:54:52,900 know, we're starting our grants program soon. 1014 00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:58,200 So hey, if you have a Claudia Send us a message, go build it. 1015 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,900 Yeah, exactly. All right, well, let's talk 1016 00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:04,700 about the road map a little bit and, you know, that grants 1017 00:55:04,700 --> 00:55:07,700 program, always something. Maybe we can touch on a little 1018 00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:10,700 bit, but yeah, what are the plans for Kai few Point O? 1019 00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:16,300 And and also, I don't think you guys have a listed token. 1020 00:55:16,300 --> 00:55:19,500 Yes, X, right. So, like a more imminent. 1021 00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:23,000 Roadmap is right now. Of course, actually, if you go 1022 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,200 right now and you look at our Network, we actually only have 1023 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,700 the Later life. And we just did this to 1024 00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:30,600 basically reach enough like Security on the consensus layer, 1025 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,200 making sure that it's actually very stable before then 1026 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,100 launching our protocol layer. So right now we're not 1027 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:37,500 validating any data and maintenance of course in both of 1028 00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:41,100 our test Nets were actively validating data but on the main 1029 00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:42,800 network not validating data just yet. 1030 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,800 So like first thing on our roadmap is kind of launching the 1031 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,900 protocol layer with our first storage pool. 1032 00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:52,000 Can't say which one just yet, but will be very exciting that 1033 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,400 should be coming out in the next month, for sure. 1034 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,800 So that's like the first thing I'm A roadmap second thing of 1035 00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,600 course, is also the like the listing on dex's and Sexes. 1036 00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:02,500 So that's going to be very exciting. 1037 00:56:03,900 --> 00:56:07,000 Yeah, kind of going long like more long term, of course, 1038 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,600 definitely getting our Oracle product out. 1039 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:09,800 That's going to be super exciting. 1040 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,400 We're definitely hoping to launch an oracle MVP as soon as 1041 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,900 possible. Like, you mentioned, then kind 1042 00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:20,100 of kind of 2.0 maybe like a little bit of a revamp. 1043 00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:22,800 Their like, I talked about earlier with, like, combining 1044 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,500 the two layers together, stuff like that, we just kind of to 1045 00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:29,100 see where we're at that point. That's kind of like the road map 1046 00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:32,100 for nowadays. And then of course you know 1047 00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:36,800 alongside all that the grants and the bug Bounty program or 1048 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,800 stuff that we're you know actively talking about now 1049 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,500 instead of the foundation and so yeah very excited to kind of see 1050 00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:45,100 that all come to fruition as soon as possible because yeah 1051 00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:47,200 kind of giving back to the community. 1052 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,600 Doing a lot of like subbed out initiatives and then also like 1053 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,200 seeing the community just kind of build lots of use cases that 1054 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:59,100 we might have never seen before. Yeah, that's the roadmap. 1055 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:05,200 All right, thanks so much John. I think we learned a lot about 1056 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,200 kind of, and especially also, are we today? 1057 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,900 And I think a very exciting use cases, you're tackling and you 1058 00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:15,400 can see already that yeah, many many areas are like actually 1059 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,600 touched upon this, like, even in the blockchain data world, but 1060 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,800 I'm sure there's like a lot. Like, if you, if you step Beyond 1061 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,200 dead like the say, use case, I think it's going to be like, 1062 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,000 some really exciting things if this all works the way I think 1063 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,700 it does. So, Yeah, super excited. 1064 00:57:31,700 --> 00:57:35,800 And maybe before we wrap up, I guess, like a final question, we 1065 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,400 could be, like, you know, where where do you people find more 1066 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,600 about out more about kife, and like maybe the grants program, 1067 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,400 can you share a little bit how people can get in touch with you 1068 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,600 and then get involved, of course. 1069 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,000 So like for now there's not a lot of stuff around the program 1070 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,500 just yet because we're still working out all the internal 1071 00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:57,900 details and whatnot. But of course you know easiest 1072 00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:01,900 way is just, you know, like our email Psych on our website, you 1073 00:58:01,908 --> 00:58:03,600 know, website is kind of network. 1074 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,500 You can reach us there by email. Hello. 1075 00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:10,300 Graham Discord pretty much everything to be honest, we have 1076 00:58:10,300 --> 00:58:13,400 there we're launching The Forum soon actually. 1077 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,600 And that's could be like another way that you can reach out to 1078 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:17,900 us. Yeah, sorry nothing on the 1079 00:58:17,900 --> 00:58:20,500 roadmap, the form which of course we need. 1080 00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:22,400 We're going to be doing a lot of stuff around layer governance 1081 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,000 process and stuff like that. That's probably the best way to 1082 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,600 reach out to us is just like going to the website and using 1083 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,700 your favorite social network to get ahold of us. 1084 00:58:31,300 --> 00:58:32,900 Great. Well, thanks so much for coming 1085 00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:33,800 on. It's been a fascinating 1086 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,400 conversation. Thank you so much. 1087 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,500 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1088 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,400 We release new episodes every week. 1089 00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:45,700 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1090 00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:48,800 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1091 00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,000 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1092 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,000 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1093 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,100 epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for a full list of places where you 1094 00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:00,700 can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1095 00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:03,500 for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 1096 00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:06,900 they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other 1097 00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:10,100 podcast listeners, you can On Twitter and please leave us a 1098 00:59:10,107 --> 00:59:12,900 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 1099 00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:16,000 happy to read them but thanks so much and we look forward to 1100 00:59:16,008 --> 00:59:10,100 being back next week. On Twitter and please leave us a 1101 00:59:10,107 --> 00:59:12,900 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 1102 00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:16,000 happy to read them but thanks so much and we look forward to 1103 00:59:16,008 --> 00:59:16,900 being back next week.