1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,760 So we started out actually building the first with three 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,880 smart contract automation protocol on Ethereum and then of 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,880 course on all other EVM based chains. 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,400 This market is basically a subset of the overall block 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,680 space market. And as block space remains 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,400 scarce and limited, the market we need to, to automate stuff 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,360 and to treasury day stuff is inherently limited by this. 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,280 And so we were sort of like hitting the, the limits in order 9 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,960 to grow the pie of, of all the other things we're building, we 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,480 need to actually grow the pie of box space. 11 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,640 We need to get more chains, more applications. 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,840 This is then where we really saw roll ups as the the solution how 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,760 we can how we can get that and how we can then help projects 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,000 actually scale. Welcome to Epicenter, the show, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,960 which talks about the technologies, projects and 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,440 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 17 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,400 I'm Frederica ANZ and today I'm speaking with Hima Odd, who is 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,120 the founder of Gelato, one of the leading role up as a service 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,080 provider. Before I talk with Hima, let me 20 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,640 tell you about our sponsors. This week, though, if you're 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,840 looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no further 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,280 than course one. 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It's been a while, so kind of 57 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:10,880 maybe give us a brief recap of the history of Gelato and what's 58 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,960 what's happened since early 2023. 59 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,160 Yeah, totally. So I think last time we were on 60 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,040 here, we we talked all about our shared history as well. 61 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,840 We're with you and the the other folks at at Gnosis, of course, 62 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,200 you were like early supporters of us at Gelato when we started 63 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:35,320 back in 2019 originally. And I think it 2023 was the year 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,000 for Gelato where we really started to endeavour on our 65 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,120 journey to scale Web 3 and go all into the role of centric 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,320 road map. And this was kind of the 67 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,480 starting point when we started researching and developing what 68 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,160 is now one of the leading role of the service platforms in the 69 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,600 space. And I think when we were on back 70 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,480 then, we, we sort of started on that journey. 71 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,840 And I think Fast forward to today and like 1/2 years or so 72 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,800 have passed, I think and then right feels like an eternity of 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,920 course. But now we have 4050 rollers 74 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:19,519 live on our platform, huge sort of change such as Risk or 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,760 Kraken's ink chain on Gelato, among many other really great 76 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,880 projects. And we really, so I think in 77 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,960 general as a space, this sort of roll up centric road map play 78 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,880 out with any larger ecosystem or project application now looking 79 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,520 into launching their own chain. And yeah, we of course 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,480 continuously trying to to find what is the best ways of 81 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,400 achieving this. How can we scale what 3, how can 82 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,840 we help scale these applications while remaining all the cool 83 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,200 guarantees that Etherium and other ecosystem sort of bring to 84 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,320 the table. And yeah, I think that's that's 85 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,120 a pretty much a good summary. I think we'll dive into kind of 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,560 like rollups and sovereign rollups and native so rollups 87 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,960 and kind of like whatever. So rollups kind of like in, in 88 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:13,360 just a second kind of back in 2023 and before that kind of you 89 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,800 guys mostly did relaying, right? Kind of it was kind of like a 90 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,960 relayer network. So is is that still going on and 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:28,120 what kind of what led to the shift to towards kind of this 92 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,720 roll up as a service platform? Totally. 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,800 So so we started out actually building the first with three 94 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,400 smart contract automation protocol, added release of got 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,720 traction on Ethereum and then of course on all other EVM based 96 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,520 chains. We are still sort of running the 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:50,520 service among our transaction reading service, which is used 98 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,560 by a lot of projects for the construction sort of bundlers 99 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,760 and and so forth. What we realized though, at some 100 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,240 point is that this market is, is basically a subset of the 101 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,560 overall block space market. And as block space remains 102 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,400 scarce and limited, the market really to, to automate stuff and 103 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,240 to, to, to relay stuff is inherently limited by this. 104 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,640 And so we were sort of like hitting the, the limits of of 105 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,040 these markets and we were like, OK, we need to, in order to grow 106 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,760 the pie of, of, of, of, of all the other things we're building, 107 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,360 we need to actually grow the pie of block space. 108 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,680 We need to get more chains, more applications, more block space 109 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,520 and meta system where we really saw roll ups as the the solution 110 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,160 how we can, how we can get that and how we can then help 111 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,160 projects actually scale. Because an easy example, if you 112 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,200 want to sponsor millions of transactions while it's still 113 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,280 retaining like the security and since the resistance of like an 114 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,720 Ethereum of some force, like you can't do this on Ethereum, but 115 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,720 you will go bankrupt. I think many people have tried 116 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,360 and so you need to get more blocks case you need to create 117 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,560 an abundance of block space in order to actually then achieve 118 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,600 these sort of user experience benefits. 119 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,960 And and yeah, this is sort of how we transitioned into into 120 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,480 solving this fundamental problem first. 121 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,680 That makes a lot of sense in terms of kind of like why you 122 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,240 decided to embark on on this endeavour. 123 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,560 So maybe let's set the stage by kind of talking about what you 124 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,480 actually mean by a sovereign roll up. 125 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,400 Because kind of like when, when we kind of usually talk about 126 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,680 roll ups, usually we, we think about kind of like full roll ups 127 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:41,240 or validiums and kind of kind of meaning kind of like you have 128 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,720 different parts of the consensus mechanism that kind of have to 129 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,280 check in with days layers or kind of in the foil roll ups, 130 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,160 it's kind of the state and the data kind of with data 131 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,760 availability. And then in the validium, it's 132 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,240 kind of just the state periodically what happens in a 133 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,480 sovereign roll up? Because kind of like even the 134 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,480 Monica Sovereign roll up, it sounds like a bit of a 135 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,040 conundrum, right? Totally. 136 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,800 And let me sort of as a disclaimer before I start say 137 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,200 all of this stuff, all of these definitions are highly complex. 138 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,880 It's like it took also myself like working on nothing else and 139 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,600 roll ups for over 2 years, a lot of time to really understand 140 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,320 this and their settlement layers and, and and and roll ups and so 141 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,280 forth. And so let me try to maybe 142 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,960 unpack and provide you with the definitions that I sort of. 143 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,520 I would love that. And a roll up for me is a 144 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:48,600 blockchain that posts it's blocks to another blockchain at 145 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,400 it's very core. And a blockchain really for me 146 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,040 consists out of and this has a roll up blockchain consists for 147 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,240 me out of a state. So it's a, it has state, then it 148 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,320 has a certain state transition function, which is let's say 149 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,840 like ADEBM. And then it's takes in 150 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,720 transactions through the state transform function to progress 151 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,280 the old stage to the new stage, right? 152 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:13,960 And this is all the the blockchain progresses. 153 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:18,920 Now the cool thing about roll ups is that day you don't need 154 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,960 to bootstrap your own validator set and come to consensus around 155 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,160 a certain ordering of transactions. 156 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,440 You can outsource this to another, a layer which we called 157 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,560 mostly the data availability layer, right? 158 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:37,200 You can use Ethereum for this. You can post transactions with 159 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,040 blobs to Ethereum. You can also use others like 160 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,080 Celestia for this, which are sort of purposely built to only 161 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,320 do that. And, and this is at the core 162 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,480 really what a roll up is. You just post your blocks to 163 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,280 another chain and they come to consents around its ordering. 164 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,880 Now if you think about it, this is really all you need to have a 165 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,960 roll up. You just need this sort of this, 166 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,600 this roll up, this chain, and then you need another blockchain 167 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,120 to do contents on the list of all those transactions. 168 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,160 Where it gets more more complex is now the bridging part. 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,240 And there's this nice saying it's like it's all just chains 170 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,840 and bridges at the other day when we talk about roll ups and 171 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,680 why people now get confused what like OK, isn't like like if I 172 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,920 talk about like a base right now isn't baser like a roll up? 173 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:33,800 Yes, it is a roll up, but I call it an an enshrined bridged, an 174 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,960 enshrined bridge roll up. So what does that mean? 175 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,520 It means it has a roll up. So it posts its data to it other 176 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,560 data availability that like Ethereum, but it also has an 177 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:49,400 enshrined bridge to Ethereum, which we in this case called the 178 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,360 settlement layer. And So what this means is that 179 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,440 you can bridge in assets from Ethereum directly to, to to 180 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,960 base, right? And you can use the the fans on 181 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,520 base. And then you can you move, you 182 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,360 can move your fans out again, we, we call like trustlessly 183 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,520 with certain proofs that you provide back to the, to the base 184 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,080 layer, which in this case is Ethereum. 185 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,000 And what that, that that's sort of like the unlock here. 186 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,480 What, what, what, what is important for sovereign roll ups 187 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,800 is that sovereign roll ups basically take this, take an 188 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,440 approach, which is OK, rather than having this worldview where 189 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,960 we need this enshrined bridge to Etherium, let's cut it out 190 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,040 completely. Let's remove this and try bridge 191 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,720 to Etherium. And let's only have the roll up 192 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,520 which posts it's blocks to a date availability there like 193 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,560 Celestia in the case of the ABC stack. 194 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:52,440 And therefore fully embrace like a more modular decoupled way 195 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,800 where we don't confuse and enshrine the bridge to the roll 196 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,160 up. We just detach it and we treat 197 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,720 the roll up separately. And then what we do is rather 198 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,280 than having this enshrined roll up, you can take any kind of 199 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,960 modular interoperability protocol that you would like, 200 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,320 for example, a layer 0A hyperlane or whatever you want. 201 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,880 And you can use that instead to bridge from assets, not only 202 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,600 from Etherium, but you can bridge assets and from Solana, 203 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,760 from base, from Abbott, from from Tom and the the unlock 204 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,080 here. I think why we have discovered 205 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,880 this as being extremely valuable and, and actually potentially 206 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,640 the future of how roll ups will be designed is that the current 207 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,200 roll up stacks like and, and this is where we think like what 208 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,680 roll ups are. They were designed back then 209 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,120 with this very Etherium centric world views like OK, with 210 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,040 Etherium, we need to scale Etherium. 211 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,160 How can we scale Etherium by building these network extension 212 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,560 around Etherium that looked like Etherium have a bridge to 213 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:54,000 Etherium, right? But the world has progressed 214 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,000 since then. And now there is there are 215 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,440 chains out there, base Arbitrum, even like a Solana a ton. 216 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Who knows, right that have a lot of liquidity that and a lot of 217 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,640 users that people actually want to access as well. 218 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:06,960 So it's not just scaling Ethereum. 219 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,080 People just want to have a chain that scales but taps into all 220 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,240 sorts of users, all sorts of liquidity. 221 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,640 And this is what sovereign roll up sort of have. 222 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,040 They're like, hey, rather than having this enshrined world view 223 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,120 and Ethereum at the centre. And we are like the satellite 224 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,840 that hovers Ethereum, we, we switch it around, we put the 225 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,320 application in the centre. And then Ethereum is basically 226 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:32,040 the largest planet, like Jupiter orbiting the Earth, which in 227 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,280 this case is your application. And and this is sort of like 228 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,080 conceptually speaking how how I would view sovereign, Sovereign 229 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,360 all OPS. As a physicist, I can tell you 230 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,960 that Jupiter doesn't actually obey the Earth, but. 231 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,480 The Sun and this guys, of course. 232 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,720 I, I take your, I take your point, I think I have a lot, I 233 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,720 have lots of questions as to this. 234 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,240 So maybe kind of like, let's start from a very basic 235 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,480 understanding point of view. So kind of, I understand that 236 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:08,640 you post the transactions into Celestia's data availability 237 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,240 solution in roll ups on Ethereum. 238 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,000 Kind of you do two things, right? 239 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:20,840 Kind of like you do you post the data, but you also periodically 240 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:27,040 post a proof that kind of the data takes you using the the 241 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,320 using the VM. Kind of like if you kind of take 242 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,880 all the the the current state and all the data, all the 243 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,800 transaction data, kind of it takes you to the new state, 244 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,240 right? Does this function happen 245 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,040 somewhere in sovereign roll ups or whom? 246 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,360 Whom do I trust is my question. So, and that's that's the sort 247 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:53,160 of like unlock one has to have. So let's imagine, let's let's, 248 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,520 let's say for example, let's take an example here. 249 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,280 There is like a roll up on on our robust service platform 250 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,280 called Raya. They're they're pretty decent 251 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:04,520 DVL. They're like a prep tax. 252 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,720 They use the operational orbits like they're an L2 to a theorem, 253 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,400 right? They have I think 98 or 99% of 254 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,760 the entire TBL, what they have is bridged in by a third party 255 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,680 bridges on the roll up. So by the way that you see 256 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,720 abnormal stack, but all the funds, I think UCC is bridged in 257 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,280 by a socket because they wanted to onboard the users, not by 258 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,520 Ethereum, which is pretty expensive, but by a base 259 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,040 Arbitron and so forth. Right now in this case, what 260 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,720 they are still doing is they are still sending as you say, like 261 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,440 these sort of like hashes, these sort of fake commitments to 262 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,720 Etherium periodically because their stack is still built in a 263 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,280 way where they have to settle Etherium. 264 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,960 But Etherium provides them with 0 security because Etherium you 265 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,360 have a if you have a, if you have a roll up and trying to 266 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,480 roll up to Etherium, Etherium doesn't secure your roll up. 267 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,680 Ethereum gives you like consensus around the ordering of 268 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,200 transactions if you use it for data availability, right? 269 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,960 But the the bridge this select this, this, this notional 270 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,000 settlement layer, like settling to Ethereum. 271 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,680 The only thing what it provides you with is it provides you with 272 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000 a trustless bridge for the assets that are bridged into the 273 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,680 roll up via the canonical enshrined bridge. 274 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,720 And if you have let's say 99% of the assets bridged in via other 275 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,840 chains such as base or Arbitron using let's say socket or a zero 276 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,160 so forth. Then you get 0 benefits and 0 277 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:42,200 security from this chain because what is like, like, why are roll 278 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,440 ups like, why, why, why do you, why is this like I say, you have 279 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,240 a solar roll up in this case, why would it be secure without 280 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,200 sending the state commitments to a theorem, right? 281 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,480 Because if you think about it, as I said at the beginning, was 282 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,480 a roll up. You have inputs, you've got 283 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,320 state, got a state transition function. 284 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,520 And then you have outputs, right? 285 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,600 And so the only thing you need is you need this ordered list of 286 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,200 transactions that everyone can follow, right? 287 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,839 You can just spin up a note. I can spin up a note. 288 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,040 We all look at Celestia in this case, we see what is the audit 289 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,119 list of transactions for this particular roll up. 290 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,520 And then we run a note. And then we know, OK, I know 291 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,960 myself locally that hey, this state transition function has 292 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,720 been run correctly. And so I know that, OK, I 293 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,960 received now $100 and you sent me $100, right? 294 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,480 Ethereum, the Ethereum only needs a proof like this. 295 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,720 This this bridge to Ethereum is like a light client, right, 296 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,040 because Ethereum cannot run a note for this roll up right. 297 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,280 So Ethereum doesn't know whether the state transition has been 298 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,760 executed correctly. So what we do in order to like 299 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,760 modify Ethereum to say, hey Ethereum, you can accept back 300 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,800 funds from this roll up to to you is we generate proofs that 301 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,160 we post to this bridge smart contract like in terms of like 302 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,400 fraud proofs or ZK proofs, for example. 303 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,240 And this then allows you to move assets back and forth. 304 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,120 But this is only adding any benefits if you actually have 305 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:12,320 funds in this bridge. And what is I think interesting. 306 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,320 I think Martin did a great talk at Defcon Martin Kaplman. 307 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,720 And if you look at L2 beat, for example, what you can see is 308 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:27,440 that for all the roll ups that exists, 60% of the funds of the 309 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,920 TVL on all roll ups are not bridged in by the canonical 310 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,400 bridge. What this means is like if you 311 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,160 if you sort of take this to the conclusion is 60% of the assets 312 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,680 are sovereign. So all the L2's on Ethereum 313 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,440 right now are already if you like, like if you think about it 314 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:53,360 60% sovereign, they only are 40% Ethereum roll ups or only 40% of 315 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,280 all the assets come actually from Ethereum. 316 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,440 They might use Ethereum as data availability, right? 317 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,040 But the assets in there don't inherit the security. 318 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,080 And this I think is a very important point to people need 319 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,320 to understand. And, and what we saw Gelato is 320 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,760 that we have a lot of chains that have 0% in these roller 321 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,000 bridges because they don't want to use it. 322 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,560 They don't want to onboard people from Ethereum. 323 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,640 They don't want to onboard assets that are issued on 324 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,680 Ethereum. And so for them, it doesn't make 325 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:20,880 sense. They just get overhead. 326 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,480 They just have to pay cost to Ethereum. 327 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,600 They have a bunch of legacy code that they need to use in these 328 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,640 lower up stacks that deal with all like Ethereum related things 329 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,720 like reorgs and so forth. And that's why taking this 330 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,120 current trends to the conclusion would mean that actually what 331 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,040 applications want is a way more sovereign construction than what 332 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,160 they usually have right now. So maybe if I reframe this a 333 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,640 bit, what do you think? Do you think it's fair to say L 334 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:57,560 twos as they currently exist are largely a meme and you refuse to 335 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,440 kind of pay for this memetic security? 336 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,760 That kind of doesn't actually secure a lot of the assets in 337 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,400 whatever roll up you're looking at. 338 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,160 Settling to Etherium if you do not use the bridge is utterly 339 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,320 useless and you only pay and you don't get any benefits from it. 340 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,160 And yes, this is then only a meme and you can, you can 341 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,880 generate as many ZK proofs you want to impose it to Etherium. 342 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,960 This doesn't add any security so to the funds on your chain. 343 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,960 So I fully agree with that, yeah. 344 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,640 OK. I, I have so many questions as 345 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,480 to kind of how interoperability could or should work, but maybe 346 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,920 kind of let's take it from from the beginning. 347 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,360 So maybe let's look at kind of how so kind of I understand kind 348 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,120 of what you mean by a sovereign roll up. 349 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:52,160 So kind of let's look at how your roll up stack works and 350 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,000 kind of how you achieve the pretty impressive throughputs 351 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,680 throughputs that kind of you are achieving. 352 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,600 And then kind of we can we can look at kind of like the wider 353 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:08,200 Ethereum roll up ecosystem later and look how we could kind of 354 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,760 untangle this to a certain extent. 355 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,640 You guys recently launched abundance. 356 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,360 So kind of the ABC roll up stack and what you can actually get 357 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:24,280 with it is A1 giga gas per second sovereign roll up 358 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,200 solution. First of all, maybe maybe kind 359 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,800 of can you reframe the one giga gas per second kind of number 360 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,360 because kind of like if you're not very, very hardcore in the, 361 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,880 you know, gas weeds, what what does that actually mean in terms 362 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,800 of what sort of applications that could support? 363 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,640 Totally for for let's say for the end user this this might 364 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,840 sound a bit cryptic, right? But I think the why we use the 365 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:59,640 Giga gas measure or unit to measure throughput rather than 366 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,720 select the traditional transaction per second measure, 367 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,520 I think that many people use is because it really like the 368 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,680 blockchain throughput is limited by like EVEVM blockchain 369 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,280 throughput is limited by basically or measured in gas, 370 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,560 right? So how much gas can we get into 371 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,920 a into every single block? And that's why the end Ethereum 372 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,520 and so forth. The Bitcoin has these huge 373 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,000 debates about like block gas limits and so forthright, shall 374 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,160 we do bigger blocks, right? There's like all these all these 375 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:36,640 discussions going on. And So what 1 gig of gas like, I 376 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,080 think the easiest one to explain how, how what an immense 377 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,840 throughput gain this is, is to put it into perspective of what 378 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,360 we currently have. So if you look at let's say base 379 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,800 right, which is probably the the the roll up out there with the 380 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,080 highest usage right now in terms of users and a gas consumption, 381 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:05,560 it currently has 0.017 giga gas per per per per second worth off 382 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,640 a throughput. And this is sort of also where 383 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,320 the current Ethereum centric roll up stacks clock out. 384 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,920 We have customers on our, I wrote a service part from a 385 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,120 Gelato which build like game and I like games as customers 386 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,040 because they're like, hey, I just, I have 100,000 users and I 387 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,800 just put everything I want on chain and then everything is 388 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,240 already full. Like they, they really try to 389 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,600 Max out these the, the software and they already clocked out at 390 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:43,240 0.0180.019 Kika gas per second was a throughput on some of the 391 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,040 Ethereum stacks that we're using. 392 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:52,000 And So what we do is we do 100 X improvement with ABC stack in 393 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920 terms of throughput compared to what you currently can do on 394 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,640 like base or what this game could do. 395 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,760 So this is a is a pretty big one. 396 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,040 If you if you want to use like the transaction per second sort 397 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,040 of measure, we have some sort of like, I think it you can 398 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,920 translate to like 50,000 transactions per second. 399 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,200 But it it really depends on the transactions, what they do, how 400 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,040 much, Yeah. My in my head, kind of like a 401 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,800 small transaction, it's around 100K gas. 402 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,080 So kind of that's kind of, yeah. So. 403 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,880 It's like a small transaction app. 404 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,560 So you're kind of 50X ING the through books of. 405 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,960 They're like it, Yeah, one of we can go higher than one gear, I 406 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,720 guess, but like roughly 100 X. OK, 100 X OK that that is that's 407 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,880 a lot. So kind of that means kind of 408 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:45,040 you, you can kind of on board, you can onboard games as an 409 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,280 ecosystem because kind of that, that kind of commit a lot, a lot 410 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,800 more transactions on chain and kind of like can't pay the price 411 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,880 point that many financialized transactions. 412 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,000 Pay right, Yeah. So, so basically we believe that 413 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280 we believe in a world of abundance or abundant block 414 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,920 space is necessary in order to actually create compelling 415 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,520 applications for like a large number of users, right? 416 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,680 And these games that we have, we are not talking about them 417 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,920 having millions of users, right? So it's still a probably like 418 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,840 thousands of users or something, but they're still already 419 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,960 clogging out. But the games, of course, one 420 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,240 big vertical that we also very bullish on that can actually 421 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,520 bring in more retail people. But what we are and we are like 422 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,800 very that we come from Defy as well as Gelato. 423 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,400 So we are always very focused on like, OK, how can we actually 424 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,320 rather than everyone trading on Binance, how can we bring 425 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,800 Binance really on chain? How can we really build like 426 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,160 fully decentralized sensitive resistant order box on chain for 427 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,640 example, right. And and this is right now, no, 428 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,560 like our, the current stakes are nowhere near close enough in 429 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,560 terms of throughput to actually facilitate this, right. 430 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,280 And I think this is, this would be for me the biggest unlock we 431 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,040 see like with hyperliquid and so forth, how successful you could 432 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,320 be if you actually sort of go in this direction. 433 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,320 And, and what we are mostly bullish on here is actually 434 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,600 enabling people without like having to horizontally charge by 435 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,880 a multiple instances for now, build like an unshamed Binance 436 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,840 on a roll up. And and and I think this is for 437 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,240 us the really exciting use guys that this enables. 438 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,840 Why do you use Celestia as a data availability layer? 439 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,880 Because kind of like if you look at, if you look at base kind of 440 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:38,320 they're clearly using Ethereum. So what's kind of limiting them 441 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:46,200 to .02 giga gas? So it's, it's really the, it's 442 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,840 really the lack of decoupling. And so if you look at the last 443 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,080 sort of centuries or the last couple of years and, and 444 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,520 software development, micro services architecture is really 445 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,680 like a dominant sort of trend that you see, right. 446 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,400 And what this means is that you decouple individual services 447 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,760 from each other. So they run sort of like in 448 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,000 silos and you can improve them in silos, you can scale them in 449 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,320 silos, you can make them resilient. 450 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,560 If one fails the IT doesn't impact the other. 451 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,960 And you just make them so much easier to maintain because yeah, 452 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,200 if you change one thing here, you don't always have to change 453 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,320 another thing here, right? The current stacks right now are 454 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,200 are are pretty, pretty couple. So every time you want to add 455 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,720 something on, let's say the execution client or, or or so 456 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,640 forth that you do improvements, you have to always look, OK, 457 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,880 what about the fraud proof? What about the bridge on 458 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,560 Ethereum? We need to upgrade it now in 459 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,240 order to actually encompass this change that we do here. 460 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,560 So you really couple bridging with the actual like execution 461 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,400 and the throughput, which is basically if you have an 462 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240 enshrined bridge and you roll up, this is what you do. 463 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,880 Like the Ethereum roll up stacks, the enshrine, they 464 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,000 combine the roll up and the bridge into one. 465 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,160 Basically what we do is we decouple them from each other 466 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,400 and we make them isolated, which is what Sorano Labs do. 467 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,560 And through this, the coupling plus of course like a, a bunch 468 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,520 of improvements that we do to, to the stacks sequences and so 469 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,640 forth, you can really gain these massive throughput benchmarks 470 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,520 that we that we achieved. And, and this is really the 471 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,840 secret sauce here. So the coupling things from each 472 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,760 other and then optimizing each specific thing. 473 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,440 And when it comes to interoperability, the great 474 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:31,400 thing is you just use whatever interoperability layer that you 475 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,960 like. So many of the chains that are 476 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,320 on Gelato use for example, the layer 0 messaging protocol. 477 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,480 Others use hyperlanes permissionlessly deployable 478 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,880 messaging protocol. And these messaging protocols 479 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,560 are the cool thing here is that you can define your own security 480 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,240 and we are strong believers in that, especially for star like 481 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,600 you don't need to overpay for security if you just get started 482 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,480 as an application, right? If you just get started, you 483 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,400 shouldn't pay 10 thousand $50,000 per per year to prove 484 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,400 the general ZK proves for like $100 in TBL, right? 485 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,160 That doesn't make sense. So you, you this should be like 486 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,320 a progressive thing. You should have one modular 487 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,320 interoperability protocol and then the more TBL you get, then 488 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,520 the the the sort of higher the risk is on your chain, the more 489 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,680 secure it should be. And so another great thing that 490 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,920 we believe in as we believe that with like what ABC stack is 491 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,400 built for is we don't believe like we think fraud proofs are 492 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,480 sort of very weird sort of middle ground that we in right 493 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000 now. You you sort of like everyone 494 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,520 uses the like not actually have like most optimistic roles 495 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:44,840 actually still don't use them today. 496 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,640 But it's kind of like this meme where it's like, hey, yeah, you 497 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,640 get in, but OK, you can't for getting out. 498 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,400 You have to wait seven days. And no one really waits seven 499 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,680 days themselves, right? Everyone uses like a an 500 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,560 operator, like a cross on something and across rebalances 501 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,280 by a crack and then other centrist exchanges. 502 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,520 And they then they are the only ones actually using the 503 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,760 canonical bridge to wait seven days and get out again. 504 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,040 And so no one really, really no one really wants to use them. 505 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,560 And So what allowing modular interoperability solutions to be 506 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,160 used means that you can instantaneously just with 507 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,880 attestations, bridge in from any chain to your chain in and out 508 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,600 in seconds right away. And one whenever ZK gets fast 509 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,720 enough from latency point of view and cheap enough from an 510 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,400 approved generation point of view, you can just like flip the 511 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,400 switch and go straight to ZK. So basically what we do is we 512 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,920 leapfrog frog proofs. We say hey just use for the 513 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,720 beginning at the stations and then whenever you have high TVL 514 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,800 and whenever ZK comes down you just switch because ABC stack is 515 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,200 fully ZK forward compatible. And we don't like as other sex 516 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,480 we don't have, we haven't built our own prover and our own ZKEVM 517 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,000 from scratch and some weird programming language and and so 518 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,400 forth. What a lot of other people do, 519 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,440 we just are compatible with succinct SP1, with risk zeros 520 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,800 proving system, with any other sort of Jolt CKVMS that will 521 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,800 come out of the market, you can use them directly prove the 522 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,800 entire ABC stack and they can. It's again decoupling, right? 523 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,480 They will work on the proving system. 524 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,280 They will make it, they will make it great. 525 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,360 Celestia works on the DA, They will make it high, high 526 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,600 bandwidth. We work on the client, we will 527 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,280 make it high throughput and combining all these things 528 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,920 together in a super modular way provides the highest throughput 529 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,080 because everyone can focus on what they are good at. 530 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,640 OK, I hear that. Let's talk about the security 531 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,440 assumptions here. So kind of like, I mean, what 532 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,360 you're rightly pointing out is that a lot of the security 533 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,760 that's promised by Altus is not actually delivered by Altus. 534 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,880 But I think kind of like what I mean, I'm paraphrasing a bit 535 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,120 meanly here, but kind of like if, if I were to kind of kind of 536 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,720 put, put, put my finger on the wound, I, I would say, OK, 537 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,920 you're not promising any security. 538 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,080 But you're also, I mean, you're, you're, you're not over 539 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,760 promising on security, but you're also not delivering 540 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,800 anything better than kind of what the tools who are over 541 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,160 promising on security are delivering, right. 542 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,000 So let's, let's kind of look at your security assumptions. 543 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,520 So say I want I want to send a transaction to a sovereign roll 544 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,760 up kind of I post that transaction to to Celestia. 545 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:32,520 What recourse do I have if for some reason kind of my data is 546 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,040 censored? And what recourse do I have if 547 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,800 my data is not censored, but somehow it's still not included? 548 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640 So how I mean to kind of what what kind of like in the old 549 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,480 roll up word kind of would be I dearly kind of fraud proof and I 550 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,160 hear you that that only works for bridge assets and so on. 551 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,920 But what what yeah. So what are my security 552 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:53,800 guarantees? Yeah. 553 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,120 So back to the the previous point of what a roll up is, 554 00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,520 right. So the security of a sovereign 555 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,440 roll up is exactly the same as the security of a enshrined 556 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,800 bridge roll up. So the security is OK you we 557 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,240 need to all agree on a set of ordered transactions, right. 558 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,360 And if we have the set of all the transactions, everyone who's 559 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,320 running a note can compute the new state based on these 560 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,280 transactions, right? And and it doesn't matter if you 561 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,080 post like, of course, you, there might be an argument to say 562 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Ethereum SDA is this more censorship resistant than like 563 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,880 another DA such as Celestia, right? 564 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480 And so this is this would be a security sort of trade off that 565 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,120 we made here an ABC stack because Ethereum could be seen 566 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,640 as what central resistance, I would agree it probably is due 567 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,520 to like Homestaker, like focusing on homestakers and so 568 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,360 forth, right? But why do we do this? 569 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,280 Why do we do this trade off? Because Celestia is basically 570 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,680 sort of what Ethereum wants to be in terms of it's road map. 571 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,840 It basically started from with a clean slate when it comes to the 572 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,360 roll up centric road map. Celestia is built for roll ups. 573 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,239 Celestia says, hey, we are optimizing for one GB blocks. 574 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,080 And as soon as you post these transactions to Celestia and, 575 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,800 and and of course still needs to scale as Celestia still also not 576 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,960 at the skate today to to handle like 100 ABC stack roll up. 577 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,360 So one giga per second. That is not the case, but they 578 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,760 have a clear road map to achieve this. 579 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,280 And I'm moving way faster than what the theorem is doing. 580 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,840 But the security is really coming from there. 581 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,920 And now, of course, the other security. 582 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,920 So the security is just the DA layer, right? 583 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,719 And then everyone running a node. 584 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,600 But then of course you have the bridging, right? 585 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,280 So, and then, OK, well, how do you actually secure the 586 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,760 bridging? This is this is you have to 587 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,920 decouple these two conversations and this is where like basically 588 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,639 ours our our whole point is that look at these bridges out there 589 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,400 today. Like blast is the 4th largest 590 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,760 roll up Ethereum roll up right with $1.4 billion in TVL and it 591 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,200 has 84. Two percent of the assets are 592 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,800 bridge invalid Ethereum roll up which is secured by the frog 593 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,480 proof. All of like 82% are externally 594 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,120 bridged in or actually not secured by the bridge itself. 595 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,440 For them there's like a caveat because they used to sort of 596 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,360 like vault system before that that escrows or the eve. 597 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,760 But basically the bridge itself is not even securing these 598 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,640 funds. So you always have to look at 599 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:27,800 who is securing the funds and only and how many funds do they 600 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,560 secure and and this is really the security you get. 601 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,120 And so yeah, basically most roll ups a day are already not really 602 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,840 benefiting from the security from a theorem. 603 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,160 And so we just take it to the full conclusion, say, then just 604 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:42,080 stop using it. Then who? 605 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,120 Who's securing the funds in a sovereign roll up? 606 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,480 So is it kind of the Celestia notes of who? 607 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,080 Who? Who would you point to? 608 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,360 Yeah. So they're like an interesting 609 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,000 point here is that who is the asset issuer, first of all, is 610 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,280 the question, right? For example, Ethereum issues 611 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,520 ETH, right? And, and, and the ETH who 612 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,920 secures ETH in general is Ethereum, right? 613 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,400 So if you would like to have ETH on your chain, then you will 614 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,160 want to have a bridge to Ethereum, right? 615 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,720 And if you don't want to have any other external dependencies 616 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,960 in terms of security, you probably want like AZK proof 617 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,200 based bridge to Ethereum, right? And then if the ZK proof is so 618 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,960 like secure and you trust it, then it's so like you have the 619 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,320 Ethereum security, right for USCC, for example, USCC on 620 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,920 Ethereum or USCC on base is actually issued by Circle. 621 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,720 So neither Ethereum nor base provides you with any security 622 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,360 for the USCC you hold on Ethereum or base. 623 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,120 It's solely a server somewhere at Circle, right that provides 624 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,000 you with that security. Now for sovereign roll up, 625 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,080 again, it depends who issues the assets. 626 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,480 So if you issue the assets natively on the sovereign roll 627 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,440 up, it's basically Celestia and everyone running the notes who's 628 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,960 securing these assets. So it's just a natively issued 629 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,880 asset that you have and there's a transaction that sent to 630 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,800 Celestia. It says, Hey, I want to issue 631 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,680 this asset. And there you see, now you've 632 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,240 got an asset on this on, on your son roll up and there's no 633 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:25,440 external Social Security depends that you have, of course, if you 634 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,440 want to bridge in assets from another chain, right? 635 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,800 Let's say you have a you have a your own base and there's a 636 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,160 natively issued asset on base. And I think base actually has 637 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,280 60% of all the TBL is natively issued on base, most of it, 638 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,120 right. So if you want to access these, 639 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,680 let's say meme for an on base, then of course you like the the 640 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,520 biggest security assumption here is like, OK, the bridge. 641 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,440 First of all, how how do you get the message across from base to 642 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,000 your chain? And this is it either like in a 643 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,520 tester, right? There's some notes that are 644 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,520 running full notes and they're like checking the state 645 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,640 transition on base and they're saying, OK, cool, it was done 646 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,200 correctly here. I give you the asset. 647 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,640 You trust those it's correct and multi stick or in the future, of 648 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,040 course, how it should be. And this is the end game. 649 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,040 Is it ZK? So you just have a ZK prove 650 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,080 that. That then proves that the state 651 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,440 transition on base has been happening correctly, and then 652 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,360 base in terms of security, of course as a formal theorem with 653 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,280 its DA layer. I understand. 654 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,680 So kind of if you compare say base and a sovereign roll up, so 655 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:38,360 kind of the the entity that kind of builds blocks on base is the 656 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,880 centralized sequencer, right? So kind of like in, in effect, 657 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,040 it's some sort of coin base entity, a single one that kind 658 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,760 of, and I mean in, in our roll ups, this is the case to a 659 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400 certain extent. So with some roll ups kind of 660 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:59,600 have a very limited list of allowed sequencing participants 661 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,520 and so on. But kind of it's always very 662 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:08,680 short list that is curated by whoever kind of set up the, the 663 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,440 roll up in the 1st place, which is why kind of like truly 664 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:17,600 decentralized sequencing is something that kind of all edge 665 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,560 who's on Ethereum or aspire to in some sense. 666 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,080 You're rightly pointing out that kind of this is a very 667 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,080 centralized function, but kind of can you compare and contrast 668 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,720 with Celestia? So kind of like if I kind of, if 669 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:36,160 I rely on Celestia for something that is issued on a sovereign 670 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,920 chain, so kind of nothing that's bridged for WhatsApp, but also 671 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,640 kind of like say I, I issue a coin on sovereign roll up one 672 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,280 and that leverages Celestia. What exactly are my trust 673 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:57,040 assumptions here as compared to an L2 on Ethereum that is 674 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,960 admittedly not decentralized at this point? 675 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,800 Yeah. So I think maybe to unpack this 676 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,560 a bit like the and focusing on the first part, which is like 677 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,920 the centralized sequencing parts or most roll ups. 678 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,320 Most role frameworks today rely on this notion of the 679 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,160 centralized sequencer to give fast pre confirmations. 680 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,760 This is also the same for ABC stacks or also the ABC stack. 681 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,920 You have right now a centralized sequencer model. 682 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:31,760 Why do you want this? Because users especially like in 683 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,440 high throughput if applications, they want to have past blocks 684 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,760 and I want to have pre confirmations like preferably 685 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,720 below 100 millisecond, right? And we all know Etherium takes a 686 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,200 rough 12 minutes or so forth to finalize. 687 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,400 So only after like 12 minutes you actually know that your 688 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,400 transaction got included and didn't get re orked out or 689 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,640 something, right? This is a long time to wait. 690 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,480 Celestia actually in this case it's already so like superior 691 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,760 with a new upgrade. I think it's 6 seconds and they 692 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,120 have single slot finality because they use the 10 M 693 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,440 mechanism. So and there you actually have 694 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,160 to like you could already like if you think about base roll 695 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,080 ups, right, that's sort of basically circumvent the 696 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:20,320 centralized sequence there censorship problem and like the 697 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,680 equivification problem. And then you could potentially 698 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,840 even like build like you can build base robes today on 699 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,080 Ethereum, but they are very unuser friendly. 700 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,640 Even if you don't write a finalization, wait 12 seconds. 701 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,040 So that's here you could build it today, then you would wait 702 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,880 like 6 seconds, but it's still to to longest why you have 703 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,840 decentralized sequences. But we actually are very bullish 704 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,880 on decentralized sequencing in general. 705 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,120 And so let's say actually has on this road map to also have sub 706 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,040 second block time. So I hope Ethereum will also get 707 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,280 there at some point. And this will actually then 708 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,440 enable us to be much more sort of pragmatic. 709 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,520 Now I think the second question you had was around the security 710 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,480 of a natively issued assets, right? 711 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,040 And the security of natively issued assets on like a 712 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,800 sovereign roll up, for example, are sort of true fold. 713 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,760 It's it's a bit difficult to grab your house around it. 714 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,440 But first of all, as I said, a roll up is a state state 715 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,680 transition function and then EU state, right? 716 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,720 And then you need the transaction ordering. 717 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:25,160 So you have a finalized list of transactions that have been 718 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,560 ordered. They say the first transaction 719 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,240 is say I want to issue this asset, right? 720 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,640 And then everyone who's running this note basically runs the 721 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,360 same state transition and knows exactly, hey now the output 722 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,720 should be that Frederica received these 100 assets, for 723 00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:42,160 example, right? The cool thing about the 724 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,640 sovereign roll up is the security also sort of relies on 725 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,360 like social consensus. It's a bit similar to Ethereum, 726 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,800 right? Ethereum, what we could do is if 727 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,760 if like Ethereum is also weird in that regard, like in 728 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Ethereum, if everyone would now say like then with the dowel 729 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,520 fork, right, we said, hey, this transaction had happened 730 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,000 actually it shouldn't have happened. 731 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,760 That's all agree of shame and it's all update our client and 732 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,080 bomb after block 100 suddenly this heck didn't happen right. 733 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,400 This was like the security at the very essence at the very 734 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,560 core was always like social consensus. 735 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,240 You can just like fork and then you have to rely on everyone. 736 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,760 So like participating. This is again, this is actually 737 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,160 not the case for enshrined roll ups, right, because they have 738 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,760 this enshrined bridge to Etherium. 739 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,360 So they can't just fork. If they would fork, then the the 740 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,520 the bridge would have to be updated at the same time, right? 741 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,360 So they have to select the pendency that makes them non 742 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,120 sovereign. And what a sovereign roll up is 743 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:43,960 by not having this enshrined bridge is you could actually do 744 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,720 similar forks when you do an Etherium. 745 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:49,480 So you can actually say, hey, if everyone agrees, we just update 746 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,680 the client and then this transaction that we included in 747 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,400 our state transition function was actually not is not included 748 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,360 anymore, right? And and you, you, that's why 749 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,920 sovereign roll ups are not L twos. 750 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:03,960 But there you can think of them as sort of modular or virtual L 751 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:09,560 ones, but without the need to come to consensus on the data. 752 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:13,000 I know this is a bit tricky and this also took me some time, but 753 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,560 but yeah, so social consensus at the very end is then still like 754 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,240 the aperture of of of what is like the security. 755 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,520 But do you think social consensus is a good thing to 756 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,000 kind of be relied upon kind of as a default? 757 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,400 So I agree kind of that it worked once for Ethereum, but it 758 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,040 was also a very tight knit community that one kind of like 759 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,960 the stake was way smaller than it is today kind of there was a 760 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,240 very there was a very strong social coherence about kind of 761 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,440 condemning the acts of the Dow hacker and so on. 762 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:55,800 So do you think this is tenable kind of for few to use? 763 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,400 So like Ethereum is still like the same, right? 764 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,640 So it's, it's all like deep down, it's all social consensus. 765 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,280 When you drill down in the blockchain world, in practice, 766 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,720 the social consensus is highly restricted. 767 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:14,880 For example, it's another like, of course it's an exaggeration, 768 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,920 but Etherium, like you can argue that Circle or like Etherium or 769 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,000 Etherium settles to Circle and Tether, right? 770 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,440 Because a lot of the S S issue Etherium are actually issued by 771 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:30,200 Circle and Tether and they control such a vast amount of 772 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,800 TVL on the chain that if Ethereum wanted to fork in order 773 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,080 to do something and Tether and Circle says no we want 774 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,800 supported, then basically suddenly a huge chunk of the. 775 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,920 I agree. Kind of circle, Circle and 776 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,440 tether would be kind of the kingmakers to kind of decide 777 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,200 which focus they're real on, yeah. 778 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,720 And so, so and so they are part of the social consensus, right. 779 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,480 And and this is the same for sovereign roll up as they're 780 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,360 similar to now one. If you have circle issuing funds 781 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,280 on the sovereign roll up or if you have certain bridge 782 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,160 operators that are issuing tokens based on other tokens 783 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,320 that are locked on base, for example, on this roll up, then 784 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,120 they will equally be an arbitrator and this whole sort 785 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,760 of fork trust rule and would say, hey, guys, actually we 786 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,400 don't support this because this is somehow acting malicious or 787 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,920 something. So whereas these chains are 788 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,360 always sort of social consensus at the very bottom, you, you 789 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,680 always have this rely on, but you, you don't want to have this 790 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,880 be one party, of course, right? You don't want to have this 791 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,960 maybe be just circle, but you want to have this to be a wide 792 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,520 community of everyone in, in, in general. 793 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,840 And then as soon as you as long as you have this, you get the 794 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,960 robustness of something like Ethereum. 795 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,160 Another question as to kind of the robustness, so kind of on 796 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,280 Ethereum assets are secured by Ethereum, right. 797 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,040 So if you look at sovereign roll ups, assets are in that sense 798 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,320 kind of secured by Celestian, the Celestia stack. 799 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:02,760 If you kind of run 100 sovereign roll ups on the Celestia stack, 800 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,880 don't you? Don't you think you're kind of 801 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,360 overload the security that kind of Celestia with a base token 802 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,560 kind of office? Yeah. 803 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,160 So Celestia is in a sense a bit different with theorem, right, 804 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,520 Because we're talking only about like DA right now. 805 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,440 Celestia will have at some point ZK accounts, which is like a 806 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,760 sort of ZK verification system as well. 807 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,600 But when you talk about the scalability of the scalability 808 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,440 of Celestia is really about the bandwidth of how much data you 809 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,840 can send to it. And yes, for sure if we would 810 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,000 have I think 1000 ABCS tech roll ups a day that just sent a ton 811 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,520 of data to the last year, it will probably be full, but it is 812 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:52,600 already two to four times. I think more higher has higher 813 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,640 bandwidth than Ethereum has today and it is sort of 814 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,640 increasing that bandwidth as a pretty rapid pace with a road 815 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:05,000 map to 1 gigahertz blocks. And so, so that's for us is 816 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,560 right now the only actual alternative for this sort of 817 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,200 roll up centric road map that we are seeing in the space. 818 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,480 And I hope if you're so that will accelerate and we'll also 819 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,480 provide it because of course the more bandwidth is the better, 820 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,720 right. But in general you bandwidth of 821 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,480 course is limited right now on these these networks and so will 822 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,080 then also be the throughput of the roll ups. 823 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:36,840 However, that's why like you do have these sort of data 824 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,840 availability committee systems, right? 825 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,520 Let's say if, if, if it would be too expensive to post data to 826 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,760 both Ethereum or Celestia, then you have these committees that 827 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,040 sort of post hashes, only hashes and not all the data to 828 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,800 Celestia. And so you can get addition 829 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,960 scalability benefits at the cost of some trust assumptions, of 830 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,560 course. But yeah, so, so these are the 831 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,440 bottlenecks. But this is where I like this 832 00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,600 decoupling. We are optimizing for this 833 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,880 decoupling where hey Celestia, I let you guys cook. 834 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,400 You'll figure this out. And like we focus on actually 835 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,680 making sure that the the roll up itself is as scalable and secure 836 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,080 as possible. So you already referred to this 837 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,400 a bit earlier in the episode. So my Co founder Martin gave a 838 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,600 talk at at Devcon this year talking about Ethereum's need 839 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:28,360 for native roll ups. I'm kind of explaining that kind 840 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:34,640 of the the current roll up space adds limited security as you 841 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,320 have already pointed out and also kind of fragment liquidity 842 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,560 because bridging between different roll ups complete mess 843 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,560 as you've also pointed out. So kind of his solution was to 844 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,200 say, OK, why don't why, why doesn't the Ethereum community 845 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:59,120 kind of introduce Ethereum endorsed roll ups that kind of 846 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,120 all work in the same way where kind of we could say, OK, 847 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,440 valuable assets are issued on Ethereum. 848 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,080 They're kind of bridge into the roll ups. 849 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,360 They can kind of rely on the security guarantees provided by 850 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,720 Ethereum for both bridging back to Ethereum and bridging to 851 00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:17,640 another roll up and so on. You saw the talk, right? 852 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,920 And I assume you also kind of listened to the large in debate 853 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,280 with with Justin. What are your thoughts? 854 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,120 Yeah. So first of all, I think I 855 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:35,440 really enjoyed Martin's talk and I really like his intrinsic 856 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,480 motivation to try to push the Ethereum community further and, 857 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,240 and, and try to resolve issues and proposing alternatives. 858 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,880 So I definitely applaud Martin for doing so. 859 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:50,120 And he's been a steward of the theorem for a long time and I 860 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,600 left me deeply respect him for this. 861 00:50:53,280 --> 00:51:01,680 I think for me what his proposal is addressing is, are two things 862 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,800 really for me like there's there's no silver bullet of 863 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,680 course right now to just solve interoperability, right. 864 00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:07,600 How do you solve interoperability is you need 865 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,120 like fast real time, fast and cheap real time proofing, right? 866 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,800 If we have this then like a probability is cool and I hope 867 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,000 at some point the silver bullet comes around the corner. 868 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,080 It's all there, but it will take some time I'm I'm sure. 869 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,520 So what is proposal for me is, is more so of addressing is this 870 00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:31,960 is the value capture and the incentives. 871 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,000 If we look at like, I think what key really sort of also deeply 872 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,360 means is that right now we see we have like the optimum 873 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,200 mechanism with the optional mechanism with the Polygon we 874 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,360 have, you're saying ecosystem, right? 875 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,200 And they're all building these sort of clusters and, and, and 876 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,680 all the value really is being captured by the rollouts, right? 877 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,840 There's barely any value that trickles down to Etherium. 878 00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,440 And, and this is kind of like where I feel Etherium finds 879 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,640 itself in an innovator's dilemma. 880 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,080 Where Etherium used to be, there used to be this meme like 881 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,560 Ether's money. And yeah, there's so much like 882 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,400 this pristine scarcity of the Etherium block space is great 883 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,680 because everyone will forever use Etherium. 884 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,920 And the more people want to use Etherium, the more they have to 885 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,040 pay. And the gas fees just go higher 886 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,640 and higher and higher. And we just pay more and more on 887 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,840 bore and it gets burned. And this is great, right? 888 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,480 And, and it worked, right? We for time, we were like 889 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,600 inflationary, but then everyone was like, hey, we don't want to 890 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,840 pay 100 bucks for transactions with the roll up and suddenly 891 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,520 all these transactions, all these priority gas fees and so 892 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:43,920 forth, they don't come to Ethereum. 893 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,720 All this MEV, it's not leaking to Ethereum anymore. 894 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,280 It's now on the roll ups. And of course this means that 895 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,840 Ethereum, that's what I meant with the innovations dilemma has 896 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,520 to is that a pivotal point right now? 897 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,400 So we have to decide what do we want to do? 898 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,920 Do we want to have this layer? And this is sort of maybe also 899 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,800 where I deviate a bit for some opinions of others, But a 900 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:12,360 theorem for me has to decide, do we want to be a platform that 901 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:18,000 caters exclusively to roll ups? Which I think for me also means 902 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,720 that it has to be fine giving up a lot of value to roll ups and 903 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,640 it has to optimize only for these roll ups and like high 904 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:32,400 bandwidth EA, cheap, fast DK verification, right? 905 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,840 And then actually nothing else. All the old legacy L1 state is 906 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,360 sort of like just like technical depth at this point. 907 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,240 Or do we want to focus on actually creating more L1 state 908 00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:48,760 like scaling L1 and execution, having apps built on the L1 909 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,360 itself to actually capture all the value, right? 910 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,000 Because for me, like based roll ups and like enshrined roll ups 911 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,120 is a cool concept. And what it tries to do, what 912 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,880 Watson tries to do here is he says, hey, let's just have based 913 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,200 roll ups. We have this Ethereum deployed 914 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,560 roll ups where everyone can build on there plenty of them. 915 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,960 So there shouldn't be any scalability issues for 916 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,480 foreseeable future. There will always be at some 917 00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,800 point scalability issues. But with foreseeable future we 918 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,760 should be fine. And like all the sequencing 919 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,120 party fees, MEV and what not all goes to ease, right? 920 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,680 And now we are back where we were like everyone just builds 921 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,000 on ease, but just more scalable, right. 922 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:33,320 And this indeed what leads to if the asset actually being sort of 923 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,120 way more attractive and like to show them to medium term again, 924 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,480 I agree. But and so it's that's makes 925 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:41,920 sense. It's a good proposal and that 926 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,920 sense for if you have this lens on. 927 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,480 But what I my lens, my lens is on like or like a Gelato, what 928 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,560 we sort of believe and we are mostly catering to actually 929 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,160 application developers and them. And if I look at the incentives 930 00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:02,080 here is that look, if I look at the incentives, they clearly 931 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:08,360 tell me that liquidity users, MEV and so forth will go to the 932 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,640 ecosystems and the applications that are actually sort of 933 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,040 building and investing all the resources in right base, 934 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,360 invested tremendous amount of resources in Coinbase, invested 935 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,520 trends, some other resources in base to make it what it is 936 00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,080 today. Right now they actually are 937 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:26,960 slowly reaping the benefits of it and why would they want to 938 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,400 and not capture it? Why would they want to give it 939 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,640 away to Ethereum, right? So what we would need is we 940 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:40,160 would need to recruit an array of altruistic developers that 941 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,160 see base and see the value they can capture but decide not to 942 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,040 capture it and give it back to Ethereum, right? 943 00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,120 And I think this is like the dilemma Ethereums or phases. 944 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,080 If you think if you look at the incentives, you will notice that 945 00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,920 I don't think this is a likely outcome. 946 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:04,040 But in this like taking this to conclusion, you were still 947 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,560 wanting to serve all these roll ups and you want to position 948 00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,000 yourself as like a key player on this market and you want to have 949 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,960 like nice bridging with why ether your asset and so directed 950 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,560 there. You should maybe embrace this 951 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,640 could be a one way, but you might want to embrace like a 952 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,360 slightly different model, which is close to like Celestia, where 953 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,400 Celestia says we don't have any stage on Celestia where you 954 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,320 can't actually build applications on Celestia. 955 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,120 It's just like a super high through high bandwidth DA layer. 956 00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,280 And then what we do is we focus on very efficient, cheap ZK 957 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,600 verification. So the customers of Celestia 958 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,520 exclusively roll ups, whereas an Ethereum, there's like sort of 959 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,520 roll ups there, but only roll ups that they're more like 960 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,320 should pay everything to ease and then still applications, 961 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:49,440 right? This is like this weird middle 962 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,600 ground. And so yeah, I think it's, it's 963 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,600 a good proposal. I I like his idea, but I don't 964 00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,040 think the incentives are there for developers to participate in 965 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:03,320 in helping. But if Ethereum kind of where to 966 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,600 come out and say, look, we see what all of you guys have done 967 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,520 there with them kind of kind of these, these different roll ups 968 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,480 and we see that this and this and this actually super nice 969 00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,880 features. And we will kind of use all of 970 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,640 the work that you guys have collectively done with VC raised 971 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:29,680 money and kind of synthesize and Ethereum endorsed roll up of 972 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,560 that. So what I mean kind of you don't 973 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,040 actually have to reinvest all the money that's already been 974 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,040 invested because a lot of the learnings are out there and you 975 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,480 can kind of just cherry pick, right? 976 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,520 So kind of like say it would, it would cost 10,000,020 million, 977 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:49,160 50 million to kind of deploy 128 Etherium endorsed roll ups on 978 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:55,520 top of Etherium, right? That would under undercut the 979 00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:01,240 entire current L2 system, right? So because if I'm a deaf, why 980 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:06,360 would I deploy on arbitrum or base or wherever if I can kind 981 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,400 of deploy on the theorem endorsed L2 that kind of 982 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,680 interoperate super nicely with all the other L twos, but I 983 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,840 don't actually have to have the headache of kind of liquidity 984 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:24,240 fragmentation and and so on. Do you think kind of if the 985 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,200 theorem community were to come out with that admittedly 986 00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:35,520 somewhat aggressive move, do you think that still holds kind of 987 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,680 if, if they say, look, thank you for innovating, we'll, we'll 988 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:44,280 take it from here. So there's also a lot to unpack 989 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,160 here. We got like interoperability 990 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,240 and, and who gets interoperability and difference 991 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:53,040 between like atomic, like L1L2 composability and so forth. 992 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,240 So they're like a lot of nuances to what a theorem can offer 993 00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,160 versus others and so forth, where I don't want to go into 994 00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,120 all of them, but just from a high level point of view, an 995 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,040 incentive point of view. I actually made a tweet this 996 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,360 morning about it because I rewatched the Martins talk 997 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:13,120 before our our conversation here and I think what if you create 998 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:19,920 incentives for developers to build the next space as a native 999 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:27,000 roll up on Ethereum, then I do see this happening this this 1000 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,720 could then happen right? How would you actually do this 1001 00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,880 right? You would need to completely go 1002 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,200 away from the scarcity mindset you would need to completely go 1003 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,320 away from the ether's money like we need to now extract all the 1004 00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,440 value mindset. Ethereum needs to go start from 1005 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:49,120 scratch and say like OK revenue 0 cost high. 1006 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:54,720 We now issue even more ease. We say we pay for your roll up 1007 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,040 cost, we pay for the ZK verification. 1008 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:02,160 We we incentivize liquidity to come into these roll ups. 1009 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:06,080 We build this platform and incentivize it with a massive 1010 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,320 program like what OP is now doing with for example, all the 1011 01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,520 OP stake rollers, right? They get masses incentives to 1012 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,960 join the OP cluster. You need to compete and like 1013 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:21,320 pay, I don't know, $40 million to to these roll up projects. 1014 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,400 I want to launch with these big exchanges if you want to get 1015 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,800 them on your platform right. If Ethereum would be. 1016 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,560 As aggressive to say OK we are doing this and all the value 1017 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,880 will leak to you force now and then maybe in 10 years or so 1018 01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,240 right we will start like taking a small catch on like the MEV 1019 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,240 and whatever right And so it's just a long term play then I 1020 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,480 would say yes there is a this is a compelling story because the 1021 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,280 incentives for projects developed in the native roll up 1022 01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,920 in the theorem are are there if not then the incentives are not 1023 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,640 there and then the technical benefits that this brings versus 1024 01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,840 just having a sovereign roll up which can also generate the cap 1025 01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,360 proofs which can also interoperate with the other 1026 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,920 chances not that strong and so yeah I feel we need to go 1027 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,400 aggressive and I would like to see that I'm all for it if. 1028 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,520 You are for aggression. Fantastic. 1029 01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,120 So maybe let's talk about say kind of this, this vision plays 1030 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,320 out or kind of even at who's there as they are and they kind 1031 01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,680 of they they slowly become decentralized and kind of make 1032 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:24,800 good on the promises. They kind of have been there for 1033 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,040 a long time. Where do you kind of see 1034 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:34,000 different sort sorts of applications kind of run in the 1035 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,360 long term, right? Because I think in this space, I 1036 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,080 think there's often this idea of kind of decentralisation is 1037 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,240 great and so on. But kind of like obviously 1038 01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:50,000 decentralisation also means redundancy in, in, in some sense 1039 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:55,160 and kind of like making each part replaceable and, and and so 1040 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:56,400 on. So kind of there's a lot of 1041 01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,080 overhead that comes with true decentralisation. 1042 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:05,640 So and a lot of people don't appreciate that decentralisation 1043 01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,720 in itself is not a value, right? It's kind of like what you can 1044 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,000 in principle kind of reap from it as rewards. 1045 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:17,720 How do you think different applications will group 1046 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:22,440 themselves onto different block chains or roll ups or sovereign 1047 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:29,560 roll ups according to what their security needs are rather than 1048 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,520 kind of tribalism or kind of where they incentivize to deploy 1049 01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,240 and so on. Because these incentive they 1050 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,600 can't go on forever, right? At some point kind of they will 1051 01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:43,280 have to be recouped or kind of VCs will no longer kind of fork, 1052 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,600 fork, fork out for kind of incentivizing behaviour that's 1053 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,280 not going to be rebooted in the long term. 1054 01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,240 For sure. And yeah, maybe to the point you 1055 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:53,960 mentioned with like decentralisation is that that 1056 01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:58,560 means an Android. I think what the property is 1057 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,440 that blockchains provide is censorship resistance, right? 1058 01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,000 So this is I think what decentralization provides you, 1059 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:09,400 which I think in today's age is extremely, extremely valuable, 1060 01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:10,840 right? If you look at like how we are 1061 01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,040 sensed getting sensor in the EU, it's crazy, right? 1062 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,720 And so sensitive resistance will become, I think, more and more 1063 01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,160 important. And the security, by the way, as 1064 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,560 as long as we, if we have censorship resistant the alias 1065 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:30,160 and then if we have ZK, then the the only real benefit then like 1066 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,080 a decentralization will provide your sensor persistence because 1067 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,000 like the verific, the verifiability that you can get 1068 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:37,920 from ZK, right? You can get to have a central, 1069 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,800 central sequencer with ZK that works, but they can of course 1070 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,760 sensor you, right? So centralization is definitely 1071 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,120 still a part. That's why decentralization is 1072 01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:50,760 also still important on some level, like the DA layer, for 1073 01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,520 example. Now, how do I see these 1074 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,080 applications develop for me, there are two camps of 1075 01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:00,400 applications that we we are Gelatos of have in our mind. 1 1076 01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:05,000 is like the probably where the majority of like long tail 1077 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,080 applications will be. And this these are not like the 1078 01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,400 the hyper sort of definative use cases. 1079 01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:14,960 They will probably not care about censorship resistance that 1080 01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,320 much. And they're like, what I want is 1081 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,560 great UX, high throughput, low costs, all of that, right? 1082 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,840 And what is that is like central Sequenza one giga gas, you go 1083 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:31,320 out there kiddo and you just get these users on boarded, right? 1084 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:36,080 So I think there will be huge, huge array of users projects 1085 01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:37,800 that will do that because it's totally fine for them. 1086 01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,680 They are they're not in the business of censoring their 1087 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,000 users, right. And then on the other hand, I 1088 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:47,560 think there will be this new financial decentralized, fully 1089 01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:51,680 censorship resistant platform that will be built the on chain 1090 01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,560 binances, the on chain everything financial where you 1091 01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,280 don't want to have one party controlling the sequencing and 1092 01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,760 so forth. And, and like the US won't 1093 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,080 interact with the secret central sequence of, of Germany and, and 1094 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,640 Switzerland and so forth, or citadel of, of, of Deutsche Bank 1095 01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,880 and so forth. There you need a credibly mutual 1096 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,240 censorship resistance platform, but that can be super scalable. 1097 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,160 And this will be huge in terms of value and so forth. 1098 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,320 And I think there we see, we will see roll ups like we will 1099 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:25,360 see roll ups handling that, but they will have to be built in, 1100 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,240 in a way most of the like censorship resistant manner put 1101 01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,480 potentially a base roll up with super fast block times from the 1102 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,520 L1 or some sort of pre confirmation layer in between. 1103 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:39,800 So what I believe is in general like ask, ask answering the 1104 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,400 question about pluses, I believe we will soon see a big movement. 1105 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,160 That's why we are investing our resources in it into 1106 01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,880 sovereignty. Projects will want to be as 1107 01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,560 sovereign as possible. They want to applications want 1108 01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,840 to reap all the benefits of what they create from the sequencing, 1109 01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,120 from the users, from the TV and so forth. 1110 01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,960 They want to be independent. They want to use modularity to 1111 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,160 their advantage, but do custom block building and so forth. 1112 01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,760 They don't want to be limited in the configurations of what they 1113 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,680 want to do. And so they want to be highly 1114 01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:16,800 interconnected with CK and Sovereign in order to really get 1115 01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:18,320 reap the benefits of high scalability. 1116 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:20,960 This is so like where we see it. But in the short to medium term, 1117 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,640 you will have these clusters like the Super chain cluster, 1118 01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,560 you will have the arbiter class you at the the whatever cluster. 1119 01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:30,440 So, so it will be a weird time but eventually I think the end 1120 01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,400 state is sovereign chain all interconnected like in the web 2 1121 01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:36,880 right? You like your server is not 1122 01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,040 power of a cluster. If you build an application you 1123 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,360 might be in a data centre but your server is not power of the 1124 01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,120 cluster. You are a sovereign application 1125 01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,800 and you have one protocol to deck with another like HTTP or 1126 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:53,360 something to do to to to communicate and AP is and so 1127 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:57,160 forth. But you are still your own thing 1128 01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:58,960 and I think what we will look similar. 1129 01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,960 What does it mean in terms in terms of kind of Gelato and the 1130 01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,600 ABC stack for you in the next say one to two years? 1131 01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,880 Yeah. So as I said, ABC stack is 1132 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,520 basically so like what we believe the future will be, our 1133 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,720 learning of the past two years working with hundreds of roll 1134 01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:22,160 ups and customers and listening to what they actually want. 1135 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,200 And So what we are really looking to build is how can we 1136 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,120 build the next on chain Binance? How can we build the next on 1137 01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,320 chain Twitter, but fully censorship resistant and highly 1138 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,480 scalable. And how can we build a platform 1139 01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,680 to facilitate this? And that's the platform 1140 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,920 component, which is of course, like the roles of service like 1141 01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,480 this needs to be serviced and scalable and like very easy to 1142 01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,640 deploy. But then there's also the 1143 01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,880 censorship resistance and decentralization a part of it, 1144 01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:53,320 right? And how can you actually sort of 1145 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,600 facilitate this? And this is also where like 1146 01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:59,840 abundance at some point comes in to the picture, which is kind of 1147 01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,560 like the overall sort of branch of of ABC stack. 1148 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,160 And yeah, this is these are the questions. 1149 01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,840 How can you build highly scalable sensor resistant 1150 01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,320 sovereign roll ups. And yeah, abundance is what this 1151 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,720 will be. Thank you, Hema. 1152 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,840 So when, if, if there are people kind of who want to try out the 1153 01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:23,359 stack or kind of build a sovereign roll up, how can they 1154 01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:25,240 find you guys? Yeah, for sure. 1155 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:30,080 So you can check out at Gelato network on Twitter at abundance 1156 01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:35,279 under score XYZ for abundance, you can deploy A1 Gigas ABC 1157 01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:39,439 stack test that today on Gelato. Just go to Ross, the Gelato 1158 01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,080 Network. One click, you got it. 1159 01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,160 Maintenance will go live in in January. 1160 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:46,960 So we'll have the first maintenance live. 1161 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,680 Super excited about this team is locked in to facilitate this and 1162 01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:54,439 get a ship and yeah, just follow us there and we'll we'll do some 1163 01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,800 tweets. Cool, fantastic Homer. 1164 01:08:58,160 --> 01:08:58,560 Thank you.