1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 We deployed the first smart contract to Etherium back in the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,000 day. It was a prediction market on 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,880 our then competitor Augers token sale, whether it would sell out 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,480 or not. We were so early that we started 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,520 building lots of foundational infrastructure for the wide 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,640 Etherium ecosystem. So we've built things like the 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,640 Nosesafe Power Swab, Zodiac, Doubtwuling, Noses chain. 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,200 All products and projects built with a NOSES should accrue value 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,080 to the NOSES token. When you have an open platform, 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,080 anyone can kind of make the user experience better. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,360 In 10 years all the infrastructure will be 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,800 blockchain based. Welcome to Epicenter, the show, 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,360 which talks about the technologies, projects and 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,400 people driving decentralization and the global blockchain 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,800 revolution. I'm Sebastian Quichio and today 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,160 we have a bit of a treat because one of the hosts is becoming a 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,360 guest. That's right, we have Fredeika 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:01:00,120 Ernst, who is Co founder at Gnosis and she's in the in the 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,920 guest seat today because we're going to be talking about Gnosis 20 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,000 and specifically Gnosis 3 point O and their updated vision and 21 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,360 thesis for the platform. Before you do that though, 22 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,040 here's a few words from our sponsors. 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,960 This episode is proudly brought to you by Nosis, a visionary 24 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,400 collective committed to fostering and expanding 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,600 applications for a decentralized future. 26 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,040 Nosis is at the forefront of innovation with Nosis Pay 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,560 Circles and Metri revolutionizing open banking and 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,160 creating a superior form of money. 29 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,600 With Hashi and Nosis VPN, they're building a more 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,160 resilient and privacy focused open Internet. 31 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,480 Are you seeking a robust L1 to launch your project? 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,760 Well, look no further than Nosis Chain. 33 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,840 Enjoy the same development environment as Ethereum, but 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,680 with significantly lower transaction fees and with a 35 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,720 robust network of over 200,000 validators, Gnosis Chain stands 36 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,240 as a credibly neutral and resilient foundation for your 37 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,080 application. Governance of Gnosis is driven 38 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,840 by Gnosis Dow, where everyone has a voice in shaping the 39 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,880 project's future. Join the Gnosis community today. 40 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,160 By participating in the Gnosis Dow Governance form, you can 41 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,880 deploy your project on the EVM compatible and highly 42 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,840 decentralized Gnosis Chain or help secure the network by 43 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,080 running a validator with just a single GNO and low cost 44 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,080 hardware. Embark on your journey towards 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,760 decentralization today at nosis dot IO. 46 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,960 Chorus One is one of the biggest node operators globally and help 47 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,080 you stake your tokens on 45 plus networks like Etherium, Cosmos, 48 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,960 Celestia and DYDX. More than 100,000 delegators 49 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,480 stake with Chorus One, including institutions like BIT Go and 50 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Ledger. Staking with Chorus One not only 51 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,000 gets you the highest years, but also the most robust security 52 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,120 practices and infrastructure that are usually exclusive for 53 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,200 institutions. You can stake directly to Chorus 54 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,200 One's public note from your wallet, set up a white label 55 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,200 note, or use the recently launched product Opus to stake 56 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,000 up to 8000 ETH in a single transaction. 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,440 You can even offer high yield staking to your own customers 58 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,440 using their API. Your assets always remain in 59 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,040 your custody, so you can have complete Peace of Mind. 60 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,160 Start staking today at Chorus .1. 61 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,520 Farika, how's it feel to be a a guest on Epicenter for the first 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,520 time? I am weirdly nervous about this. 63 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:25,560 I mean I've I've been on probably like 200 Epicenter 64 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,560 episodes and this is the first time as a guest it feels weird. 65 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,000 It's nice. It's nice though. 66 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,680 Yeah, it's I, I think Brian was a guest once, like way, way back 67 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,280 in the day. He I had, I had interviewed him 68 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:44,400 about his whole Bitcoin kamikaze attack thesis. 69 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Sonny's been on for sure. But I don't, I don't think 70 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Mihair's been a guest anyway. But yeah, happy to do this and 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,960 really cool to, you know, see Gnosis continue to grow as an 72 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:04,040 ecosystem, like very organically, but always like up 73 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,120 and to the right. So let's let's get started. 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,000 So like for folks who are coming at this with a fresh set of 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,760 eyes, what is Gnosis and what's the background here? 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,800 I think like most people of course are familiar with Nosys 77 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,200 as like a long time builder in the space, one of the very first 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,160 companies to be to build on Ethereum and has gone through 79 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,560 several of iterations of products and visions. 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,440 But yeah, what's the Nosys vision today and how did you 81 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,400 guys get here? So we've been around for in 82 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,960 blockchain in terms of very long time we were, we deployed the 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,480 first smart contract to Ethereum back in the day. 84 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,560 It was a prediction market on our then competitor Argus token 85 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,680 sale, whether it would sell out or not. 86 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,240 Yeah. So basically we've been around 87 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,200 for a super long time. We started as a prediction 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,800 market platform. We were so early that we started 89 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,880 building lots of foundational infrastructure for the wider 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,920 Etherium ecosystem. So we've built things like the 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Nosis Safe Cow swabs, Zodiac, Dow tooling, Nosis chain 92 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,440 obviously and a couple of other infrastructure projects that are 93 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:21,800 still around and alive today. Many of course are not, but I 94 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,680 think this is this is the natural course of building 95 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,200 stuff. And we have recently pivoted a 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,320 little bit to what we call Nosis 3 point O, basically from 97 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,720 building foundation infrastructure for the for the 98 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:41,320 wider ecosystem to building adapts that are meant to be 99 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,000 usable eventually by actual real human people who want to use it 100 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,560 because it works better than what they currently have. 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,880 Mass adoption, we're going to get there. 102 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,120 Yeah. I mean, we've been saying this 103 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,520 every bull market and not me personally, but kind of the 104 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:02,000 space has been saying this every bull market since 2015 probably. 105 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,200 I feel like this time it's true though, because we have built so 106 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:12,480 much technology that actually allows us to abstract things 107 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,000 away from the user. So for instance, one example is 108 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,600 the seed phrase, right? The seed phrase, it's a terrible 109 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,040 user experience. It's these are your 24 words. 110 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,360 Don't ever lose them, but also never show them to anyone or or 111 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:28,480 everything else. Go on. 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,400 I mean, this doesn't work. This doesn't work for us. 113 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,240 It doesn't work for the wider public. 114 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,800 So but having that, that self custodial element and that 115 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,760 permissionlessness that kind of comes with it, but having a 116 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,920 much, much better user experience, this is something 117 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,560 that kind of we can create now. And consequentially, I think 118 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,440 that this is actually the bull market in which we will see 119 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,120 consumer adoption. One of the things I, I like 120 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,120 about Gnosis and I, I find like quite commendable is that it, it 121 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,080 appears as though like the organization is very value 122 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:14,800 driven and staying very true to like the original ethos of 123 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,600 crypto of like have custody of your assets, running your own 124 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,440 nodes and up, you know, getting to financial sovereignty. 125 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,720 And I, I think that in a lot of, you know, in a lot of cases, you 126 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,080 know, teams that sort of start with that original vision or, 127 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,160 or, or start with those original values over time, maybe get 128 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,640 corrupted in order to achieve better efficiency, in order to 129 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,680 build better products. Like how have you guys been able 130 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:57,080 to maintain like such a high, high level of focus on like the, 131 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,240 the vision and the, the, the values of crypto while at the 132 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,080 same time building tech that enables users to, you know, to 133 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,400 abstract away, as you said, like all this kind of complex 134 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,040 technology. I think I would disagree with 135 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,560 the premise of the question a little bit. 136 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,840 I think in the past we've not done this successfully. 137 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,480 So in the past, I think we've built very much for people in 138 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,520 the space who already knew how it worked and who were already 139 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:31,880 accustomed to the user experience drawbacks of crypto. 140 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:38,679 So I think things like the NOSA safe, for instance, under the 141 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,559 hood, it's it's fantastic tech. It's very much not a retail, 142 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,760 it's not a retail product. Same for for a car. 143 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,800 So actually for most taxes, it's they're not retail products as 144 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,520 such. So kind of so far we've kind of 145 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,520 optimised for building things that kind of stay true to the 146 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:05,600 ethos and thereby sometimes neglecting user experience in 147 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,520 terms of, I mean, maybe it's not even fair to call it neglecting. 148 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,760 So kind of we've prioritized building truly decentralized 149 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,520 tech over usability. And I think that's kind of been 150 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,360 that's kind of come to our detriment many times over the 151 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,520 years where kind of we saw competitors kind of pull ahead 152 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,840 because kind of they were, they, they were taking shortcuts. 153 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,000 And I mean, it's completely fine. 154 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,880 But I think now we're actually in a place where we can build 155 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,280 everything on a completely decentralized stack. 156 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,840 And I think kind of it's, it's kind of it's, it's time to kind 157 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,240 of think about why we actually wanted to do this in the 1st 158 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,720 place, right? So if you think about why would 159 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,240 you build anything on a completely decentralized stack 160 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,640 from an engineering standpoint, it's a complete pain. 161 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,320 So building anything, building everything on kind of AWS would 162 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,720 be much, much easier and faster. So kind of thinking back to what 163 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,960 exactly the the decentralization value proposition was, I think 164 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:14,560 kind of it comes in three, it comes as as a triptych, right? 165 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,760 So basically the first thing is actually decentralized 166 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,560 ownership. So kind of if you do anything on 167 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:24,080 the Internet today, kind of it accrues value to the same five 168 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,800 companies and people behind the companies. 169 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,080 And with with decentralized technologies, we can kind of 170 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,280 decentralized ownership in, in, in that sense. 171 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,200 The second thing is individualized agency. 172 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:46,800 So kind of on, on the on web three, we can lower the barrier 173 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,720 to entry for people very significantly so they can have 174 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,280 access to things they previously didn't have. 175 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,040 And this this also includes kind of coordination in very large 176 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,880 scales and dowers and so on. And the third thing is actually 177 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,360 user experience ironically, because kind of when you have an 178 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,920 open platform, anyone can kind of make the user experience 179 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,240 better. So if I kind of have a killer 180 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,280 feature idea for a centralized product like Google Maps, 181 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,320 there's no way I can kind of integrate it. 182 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,920 But kind of in the at that point where you kind of have a 183 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,680 decentralized Google Maps, I could for instance, say, I know 184 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,720 exactly how I'll give you, I'll give give you a fictitious 185 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,760 example here. I know exactly how traffic 186 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,280 light, the traffic lights are set in Berlin. 187 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,720 So I can give you better estimates of how long it'll 188 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:43,680 it'll take to get places based on kind of which phase there and 189 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,280 so on. And I could kind of just add 190 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,120 that on to the existing decentralized Google Maps 191 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,720 product. And you can't do that kind of if 192 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,360 you're building on centralized technology. 193 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,400 So kind of when, when we think about kind of what can we 194 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,800 actually build now that has additional value to retail 195 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,480 users. I think these are kind of the 196 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,440 three prongs that kind of we we need to look at. 197 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,760 So can we make things? Can we, can we benefit users 198 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,320 from making ownership more decentralized? 199 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,000 Can we make things accessible to users that previously weren't 200 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,440 accessible to them? And can we kind of build a 201 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,840 platform on which anyone can innovate? 202 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,000 OK, so where does the Gnosis 3 point O vision fit into all of 203 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,400 this? And you know what? 204 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,000 What is the Gnosis 3 point O vision and how did you arrive to 205 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,120 this this state of Gnosis? Yeah. 206 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,480 So basically you Gnosis 3 point O vision is, is twofold. 207 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:48,000 One is just very organizational. So kind of I think in the past 208 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,520 because we have built so many things, people were always 209 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,320 confused about kind of how it relates to the Gnosis token and 210 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,240 kind of it clarifies that. So it kind of very clearly 211 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,760 specifies that all, all products and projects built within NOSES 212 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,640 should accrue value to the NOSES token either directly or 213 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,560 indirectly. And the way that that can happen 214 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:14,600 is either they use G&O as, as it's own token or they kind of 215 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,320 have a different token that then is value coupled against the 216 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,480 NOSES token. So for instance, Safe, they have 217 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:27,400 their own token and it it gets put into an automated market 218 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,640 maker against GNO. So kind of if Safe appreciates, 219 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,200 GNO will appreciate and vice versa. 220 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,000 So kind of without using the same token and kind of while 221 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,400 having in kind of independence kind of act the way that's in 222 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,920 the interest of each project individually, you can still 223 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,520 economically couple them together. 224 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:54,080 And we do that both with with projects that we have spun out 225 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,680 and with projects we have invested in. 226 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:00,480 So Gnosis has, has actually we have invested in over 80 227 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:06,840 projects over the last six years or so, so kind of like a mini VC 228 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,080 and we hold very significant positions in many other tokens 229 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800 consequently and kind of we can couple them the same way. 230 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,960 So for instance, one example for instance would be autonomous. 231 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,400 So we hold $50 million worth in autonomous tokens. 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,120 So kind of we couple it to the GNO token this way. 233 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:34,280 Does Gnosis that provide what Cosmos we call like protocol 234 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:40,960 owned liquidity where Nosis the chain can provide liquidity 235 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,960 saying like no token to a protocol in exchange for that 236 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,920 protocols token. And like this, this is used 237 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,160 particularly in the case of the Cosmos Hub, where the hub 238 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,600 provides Adam liquidity, say to like a DEX and then that DEX in 239 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,360 return. It's sort of like a cross chain 240 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,440 swap essentially. And then it aligns, you know, 241 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,760 incentives both ways. Do you guys engage in that sort 242 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,120 of? This is exactly what we do. 243 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,040 So yeah, protocol owned liquidity is also what we call 244 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,080 it in our books and it works amazingly well for us. 245 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,760 And then obviously we have NOSES chain so that, you know, tokens, 246 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,640 the staking token for NOSES chain. 247 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,040 NOSES chain is very decentralized, so there's 248 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:27,080 230,000 validators, which is 20% of what Ethereum has. 249 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,160 And you can we, we have intentionally lowered the 250 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,960 barrier to entry for staking so that interested lay people can 251 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,880 kind of become a part of this network. 252 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,480 So you need 1G and O costs around $350.00 these days and 253 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,640 you can run it on most hardwares you need. 254 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,160 And yeah, we, we try to make it easy for people. 255 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:59,200 You get between 10 and 15% APY. It's it's lots of people do it 256 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,960 just for the fun of kind of be being part of a decentralized 257 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,200 network. I think it's, it's in terms of 258 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,440 technology, it is a similar degree of technical expertise 259 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,440 required to running an Ethereum node, but only a fraction of the 260 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,080 capital requirements. So kind of the the validator set 261 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,440 is very large for us. How big is the Gnosis validator 262 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,600 set now? It's like 230,000 validators. 263 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,480 Right. There's a lot of validators. 264 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,520 Right. But, but, but just like, just 265 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,160 like an Ethereum validator, this is essentially like every 266 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,320 validator is a chunk of you know, like 32 no or, or 267 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,840 something like that, right. So it's not. 268 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,400 So do you have an idea of like how many individual stakers that 269 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,560 is? Yeah. 270 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:51,120 So it's difficult to kind of pinpoint exactly and also that's 271 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,560 deliberate to a certain point, but it must be around 2000 272 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:02,960 individuals who kind of who, who, who are validators on the 273 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,160 network. This might sound like a kind of 274 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,680 silly question because I don't know this, but are are is there 275 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,119 liquid staking in? Yes, we also have liquid 276 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,079 staking. I mean anyone can kind of run a 277 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,400 liquid staker on top of no. So, so kind of it's it's 278 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,640 permissionless that way. We don't encourage it 279 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,839 particularly just because as soon as you have liquid staking, 280 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,640 you have you have economies of scale again. 281 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,960 And then you end up in a kind of Lido like situation where a 282 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:41,000 significant portion of the staked ACID actually rests with 283 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,080 one set of contracts. And that's, that's, yeah, I 284 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,680 think this is difficult from a network perspective. 285 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,960 If you kind of if, if you want to make your network as 286 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,160 resilient as possible, this is not a great situation to be in. 287 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,960 But what we also have, and this was this we actually had the 288 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,480 first instance start up this week is oh boy, which is. 289 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,440 Decentralized validator. Exactly. 290 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,320 Yeah. And that's also Diva which also 291 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,360 decentralized validation and so on. 292 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,000 So and we've, we've also those are also among the projects that 293 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,680 we as noses have invested into just to make sure that kind of 294 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,720 the ecosystem remains robust. Right. 295 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:33,280 So how are you leveraging Obel? Obel runs on Noses chain just 296 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,640 like like it does on Mina. OK, got it. 297 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,840 OK, interesting. So this, this pivot from 298 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:45,320 building foundational infrastructure to Daps, what 299 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,640 does that mean sort of organizationally? 300 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,440 Does it mean that NOSIS is taking a step back in terms of 301 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,440 maintaining the the the foundational infrastructure and 302 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000 we'll have more sort of product people building Daps internally 303 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,960 or are you investing or financing DAP developers to 304 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,600 build on the infrastructure? Well, so yeah, how does that 305 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,920 kind of? Yeah, that's that's the other 306 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,760 part of the nose is 3 point O vision. 307 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,880 So that's kind of the idea that now we kind of have to build 308 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,080 applications that kind of serve real people with real problems. 309 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,280 We will not stop maintaining the infrastructure for sure. 310 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,640 So kind of like part of the infrastructure projects are spun 311 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,520 out so safe and cow and Zodiac and so on their their their own 312 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,800 things, just as Kapadki is, which we retain, you know, a 313 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,440 large stake in, but they are their own projects and they kind 314 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,480 of we we have no hand in kind of running them operationally in 315 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,880 any way. So and noses chain, yes, we will 316 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,760 absolutely continue maintaining it. 317 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,840 It is more of a coordinative role kind of just like you 318 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,920 wouldn't say the theorem foundation kind of runs Ethereum 319 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,120 kind of we have a codef coordinator and we have all the 320 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,880 different clients that most of the different kinds that. 321 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:12,360 Ethereum mainnet also has, so they have dedicated noses chain 322 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:16,360 teams and kind of we have someone in house who coordinates 323 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,000 those teams. But in principle that is pretty 324 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,120 coordinate, that is pretty decentralized and we don't have 325 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,720 to do a lot of thing things. There are other things where 326 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,960 kind of we do have a hand in kind of making sure that 327 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,960 foundation infrastructure is there for the NOSES ecosystem. 328 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,160 So things like making sure there are block explorers, making sure 329 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,280 the RPC endpoints work and so on. 330 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,440 Usually that that just that is run via the NOSA star. 331 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:49,200 So kind of the RPC endpoint providers and and the block 332 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,840 explorer providers and so on, they just make a proposal to the 333 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,120 noses down. Obviously we've reviewed this, 334 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,080 but so do all others, other GNO holders. 335 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,520 So kind of this kind of it is we, we still feel responsible 336 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,400 for it to a certain degree, but it actually runs pretty well on 337 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,160 its own. And this idea that kind of we 338 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:17,040 will pivot to to applications and specifically payments and 339 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,640 financial rails applications. This is the other of the other 340 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,720 half of the noses 3 point O vision. 341 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,960 Yeah, I want to talk about the the the payments and financial 342 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,040 rails in in a second because I think that's actually one of the 343 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,760 most interesting things here. So how did we get that? 344 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,520 So we we just literally sat down with a blank sheet of paper and 345 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:43,000 kind of brainstormed where we think we can add the most value 346 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,040 with the technology stack that we currently sit on. 347 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,840 And there were a couple of contenders. 348 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,880 Another one was social media, because obviously clearly it 349 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,160 would benefit a lot from kind of being on a credibly neutral 350 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,640 platform. But the easiest lift in terms of 351 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:06,840 technology seemed payments while at the same time the business 352 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,240 model that kind of payments comes with, it's very clear. 353 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,120 So kind of this, this is tried and tested a million times. 354 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,840 So we kind of eliminated as many unknowns as possible and said, 355 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,000 OK, this is where we can provide something that is actually 356 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,320 useful to a very significant number of people and we think we 357 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,600 can build it with what we currently have. 358 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,840 That that that's that was basically the rationale behind 359 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,760 it. Yeah. 360 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:38,560 So I'd like to talk about Nosis DAO a little bit and its role in 361 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,760 governing the Nosis infrastructure. 362 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,400 What what aspects of the infrastructure does it govern? 363 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,960 Is it is it just Nosis chain or does it have also a role to play 364 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,000 in other of the foundational infrastructure like the safe or 365 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,520 like what are the interactions I guess between Nosis DAO and the 366 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,720 safe DAO and you know some of the other infrastructure that 367 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,680 you. Have that's a fantastic 368 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,840 question. So first of all, it doesn't 369 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,200 really govern noses chain. So there's very few parameters 370 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,600 that the DAO actually sets in principle kind of noses chain 371 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:20,680 is, is governed by the validator set because they kind of they 372 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,920 decide on whether to upgrade their nodes to which software. 373 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,280 If, if you, if the validators are not on board, there'll be a 374 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,240 hard fork and so on. So, and then there's, there's 375 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,240 actually a lot of other stakeholders that also kind of 376 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:43,800 influence NOSES chain often not as directly as the validator 377 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,440 said. So things like the core 378 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,360 developers, the, the stable coin providers, the RPC endpoint 379 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,760 providers, the Oracle providers, centralized exchanges and so on, 380 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:02,000 all basically that entire set of actors, they somehow govern 381 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,040 noses chain together. Just like the same is true for 382 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,440 Ethereum, right? We wouldn't say Ethereum. 383 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,280 The Ethereum Foundation governs Ethereum and it's the same for 384 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,280 Gnosis. What the Gnosis Dao actually 385 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,640 mainly does is allocate treasury. 386 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,320 So the Gnosis Tao sits on a very large slavery around 500 million 387 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:29,240 in GNO and another 500 million in Ether and stable coins and 388 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:35,960 other other tokens. And the the NOSES token kind of 389 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,560 is a voting token in the Dow. So the allocation of funds 390 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,360 happens via the Dow. This is kind of the main, the 391 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:51,640 main thing that the Dow does. And then kind of it tries to 392 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:58,240 align all of these portfolio tokens of portfolio companies 393 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,360 with NOSES interests. So for instance, NOSES DAO holds 394 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:09,200 20% of the safe token supply. So obviously kind of there are 395 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,560 talks between NOSES DAO and Safe DAO about kind of like how to 396 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,000 align each each other strategically and then kind of 397 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,320 just because kind of there's very large aligned economic 398 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,960 interest between the two Daos. And yeah, in principle, that 399 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,320 should be much more out in the open. 400 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,760 So I think a lot of this actually happens like for old 401 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,480 hours at the moment, kind of behind closed doors and 402 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,800 different Telegram groups and then kind of proposals get 403 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,160 posted and kind of there's protocol politicians and so on. 404 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,080 I think coming to a point where a lot of that is transparent and 405 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,160 open to anyone who kind of wants to join that discussion. 406 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,160 I think this is somewhere we need to get to. 1 initiative 407 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,720 that we're spearheading is kind of having having a dedicated 408 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,080 forum page for each large holding and tokens that Nosistow 409 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,440 has where kind of people can talk about the strategic 410 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,760 alignment, say between noses and safe and what safe should do for 411 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,640 us and what we should do for safe. 412 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,360 And kind of what what happens if this doesn't happen because 413 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,640 always kind of when you hold tokens, obviously divestment is 414 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,520 always an option, right. So, yeah, basically having 415 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:35,120 having these alliances out in the open that are currently, and 416 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:38,000 I mean, I'm not even a part of most of these alliances. 417 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,920 They kind of they happen between different, you know, token 418 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,040 holders and safe token holders and they kind of result in 419 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,680 proposals in the forums. But yeah, so in principle, this 420 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,880 is how this is how Gnosis and the portfolio companies or 421 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,480 projects kind of align themselves. 422 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,280 What's the philosophy in terms of capital allocation 423 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,440 management? Like is the Gnosis philosophy to 424 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,640 have all of the capital, the treasury managed by the Dow or 425 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,440 do you guys have like sort of organizations that are allocated 426 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,280 pools of capital with like a board that that itself allocates 427 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,640 capital? So like, for instance, in 428 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,760 Cosmos, like the hub allocated quite a bit of capital to this 429 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,680 organization called a, a Dow. They have a team that reviews 430 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240 grant, grant proposals and, you know, issues those proposals. 431 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,360 So it's, you know, it's sort of outsourcing that work because 432 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,520 what, what it, I mean, I think what we found here, at least in 433 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,320 Cosmos governance was that the hub was not really like the 434 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,880 token holders were not always the better, the best equipped to 435 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000 make decisions about what to allocate capital to. 436 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,080 And, and so This is why like part of the Cosmos Treasury was 437 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,320 allocated to a, a Dow. Does something like this exist 438 00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,880 in Gnosis? Yes. 439 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,120 So historically this has grown. So kind of back in the day the 440 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,560 company actually conducted the token sale and that company 441 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,960 still holds a small part of the treasury and kind of from that 442 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,920 company we do actually do product in product development 443 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,560 mostly. Anyone else could in principle 444 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,520 ask for a grant from NOSA Style to do the same. 445 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,000 But so far this has happened once. 446 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,760 So kind of we had once a proposal was a very large 447 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:39,840 proposal of a group of people who credibly claimed to what to 448 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,640 do business development into ecosystem building on our behalf 449 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,720 because business development and marketing and so on. 450 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,080 They, they, whenever our strong suits and they said, look, you 451 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,720 allocate us this capital, we, we, we can do it for you. 452 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,680 And in the end, kind of the, the funds were reached, were 453 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,920 returned because it didn't go so well. 454 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,160 But in principle, Nosis DAO is very much open to that. 455 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,320 So kind of having having different contributors in charge 456 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,760 of different things and 11 relationship where that's 457 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,360 actually worked incredibly well for Nosis in the past is the 458 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,080 relationship with Kapatke, which is also a DAO that has spun out 459 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,200 of Nosis. It's a treasury management Dow. 460 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,400 So they manage our treasury, but also the safe and health 461 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:33,400 treasuries as well as Lido and oven balance and a number of ENS 462 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,200 and a number of other Dow's. And for us this has worked super 463 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,320 well because we don't want our capital to lie fallow. 464 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,960 But obviously this is not something that that the Dow can 465 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,880 vote on kind of on, you know on a in the cadence that makes 466 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,040 sense. You can't say we want to vote on 467 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,080 whether to withdraw funds from this pool and so on. 468 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:05,560 So this is also what drove the development of the Zodiac Dow 469 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,920 tooling. So, so that kind of we can, we 470 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000 as no star could hand this over to Kapatki without them having 471 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,200 custody of the funds. So they can now do things to, 472 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,160 they can do certain operations to the funds and that they're 473 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,560 being that, that they're managing. 474 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,480 But they, for instance, they can't withdraw them and or sell 475 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,640 them and so on. They kind of, they have a, they 476 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:35,160 have a permission list of of things they can do to the funds, 477 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,280 kind of like like a fund manager. 478 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,480 OK, no, interesting. Yeah. 479 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,400 I mean, I guess it works for as long as it works, right? 480 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,040 If the Dow and the token holders are effective in allocating that 481 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,200 capital and the community at at large is satisfied with how 482 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,200 capital is is managed and and allocated, then then it makes 483 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,440 sense to sort of continue in in in this configuration. 484 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,360 Yeah, no, but I I'm 100% with you. 485 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,480 So kind of Taos and noses Tao included me to become much, much 486 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,120 more efficient. So I think kind of the one thing 487 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,160 that kind of we need to understand is that the, the very 488 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:21,640 constrained thing in Daos is attention and kind of paying for 489 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:28,520 the attention of the of the participants and kind of only 490 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,440 escalating certain decisions, kind of delegating some 491 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,520 decisions to others. I think this is, this is 492 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,680 infrastructure that kind of we as an ecosystem very much still 493 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:45,440 have to build up because kind of saying, for instance, I, I trust 494 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,680 XY's judgement in terms of treasury allocation, but I don't 495 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,600 want them in charge of say the marketing, the marketing tactics 496 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:57,920 and so on. And I want someone else in 497 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,240 charge of that and kind of saying, telling people basically 498 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,520 having a way of kind of delegating your vote depending 499 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,640 on what topic you're voting. I think this is this will be a 500 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,800 great tool for the ecosystem. Yeah. 501 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,640 What one of the things that we've seen sort of experimented 502 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,080 with in in the Cosmos ecosystem is that it is the use of sub 503 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,320 Dows. So Cosmos Dow infrastructure, at 504 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,480 least like the Dow, Dow infrastructure that's used 505 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,440 primarily allows for for sub dows. 506 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,240 And so some, some ecosystems are some, some chains have created 507 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,120 sub dows, right. So you have like the treasury 508 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,280 and then the treasury will allocate some capital to another 509 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,720 Dow. And then that Dow would have 510 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,720 members that manage like a smaller pool of members that 511 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,360 manage that capital, say for like marketing or business 512 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,280 development or project funding. And the, the, the, the parent 513 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:59,240 Dow, you know, has some amount of also power over revoking, you 514 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,280 know, some of those members, if they, if the community feels 515 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,600 that like members are not acting in, in a way that's desirable, 516 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,960 like they can revoke access, they can veto certain types of 517 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,560 proposals. So it creates like, I think a 518 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,160 really kind of streamlined architecture for Dows to 519 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,480 reallocate pools of capitals to, to other Dows instead of like 520 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,000 sending that money to just some organization off chain. 521 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400 Right. That that has a pool like those 522 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,240 members that that aren't accountable directly accountable 523 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:30,760 on chain to the to the parent Dow. 524 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:33,880 Yeah, I, I think that makes a lot of sense. 525 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,000 And I think this is also by and large how traditional companies 526 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,760 are structured, right? Kind of like you have a 527 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,280 marketing department that has certain budget and if they go 528 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,320 totally out the rails, you kind of you have you have heads 529 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,040 rolling and then kind of you. And I think this is exactly how 530 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,640 kind of it needs to work in Dallas down the line as well. 531 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,960 But obviously kind of putting all of these things that all of 532 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,080 these mechanisms on chain is always a bit of a challenge. 533 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,400 Yeah. So let's talk about the payments 534 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,000 focus here. So, so Gnosis Pay is I think one 535 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,760 of the the main products that you launched in in last year 536 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,840 that is actually like quite interesting. 537 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,440 We talked about this on on when you were on the Interop podcast 538 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,760 a couple of months ago and all the cool tech behind noses pay 539 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,600 that allows people to have money like basically like on an on 540 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,840 chain address and and the credit card signing the transaction. 541 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,280 And it's it's actually like quite, quite cool, I think 542 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,719 technically, but there's other there's two other products here 543 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,320 that I'm not very familiar with, which is circles. 544 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,920 I know that's your universal basic income protocol and then 545 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,600 metry that I'm not very familiar with. 546 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,480 So, yeah, what, what's the, what's the overlying thesis 547 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,560 here? Like, why did you, you know, 548 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,880 when you sat down and like, thought about what this 549 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,239 infrastructure could be used for? 550 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:01,640 Why did payments stand out as the the the the the vertical 551 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,160 where you could provide the most value? 552 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,000 That's a fantastic question. So if you kind of look at 553 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,160 payments in hour bubble, kind of like, and I don't mean the web 554 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,280 three bubble, but kind of like the global N bubble, payments 555 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,160 are not a lot of are not a big pain point for us. 556 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,720 So kind of you can send funds to your friends, you know, in a 557 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:30,880 couple of minutes at more or less 0 cost, you can get you 558 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,080 have access to loans, you have credit cards, kind of everything 559 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,720 kind of works for you. This can't be set for a lot of 560 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:43,400 the rest of the world. So I mean, even for us, there 561 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,680 are some edge cases where we kind of feel the limitations of 562 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,480 the financial system. So recently for instance, I had 563 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:57,520 to send a a fairly significant amount of money to the United 564 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:05,440 States for an investment and it cost me I think €100 with Wise 565 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,440 to kind of send it. And I mean obviously had I had I 566 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,920 just sent USCC would have cost me almost nothing. 567 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:15,960 But I mean those are edge cases by and large kind of payments 568 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,280 work well for us. If you look at, for instance, 569 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,160 Latin America or even countries like Turkey in Europe, we see 570 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,200 that inflation runs rampant and even access to a dollarized 571 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,640 account is a status symbol to us. 572 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,320 That's not even a product anymore, right? 573 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,200 Being able to hold USDC on chain, we don't think of that as 574 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,640 a product, but really it is for a large part of the global 575 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,440 population, this very much is a product. 576 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:51,360 So for our rationale was if we can kind of build something like 577 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,040 a way for people to access this technology even without building 578 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,240 any more financial protocols ourselves, just providing them 579 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:05,320 with axis will actually unlock a lot of economic value for them. 580 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,600 So the idea behind Metri, which is the project you're unfamiliar 581 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,960 with, but not really because it used to be called Gnosis one, it 582 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,040 just got a proper name. So Metri's based on the safe. 583 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:25,360 It's kind of an it's a nice mobile interface build on a safe 584 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,840 back end. And what it allows you to do is 585 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,280 it allows you to onboard your friends really easily. 586 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Kind of they they can kind of set up a new account with the 587 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,960 push of a fingerprint. They can secure it later kind of 588 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,200 when they have significant funds in it. 589 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,640 They can always add more signers, but they can it gives 590 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,120 them the opportunity to kind of hold stable coins they otherwise 591 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,240 wouldn't be able to hold kind of wouldn't be able to hold that 592 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,680 currency. And that that is, is a very 593 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:06,520 simple use case for us, but something that is of a very real 594 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,440 value to actual people. And then the way that we think 595 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,320 about is kind of OK, now you kind of have to connect it with 596 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:21,120 the the legacy financial rails that we already have that people 597 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,120 already use. So you want things like you want 598 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,440 an IBAN integration. So kind of you want your wallet 599 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,320 to be addressable by an IBAN. So you send funds to that IBAN 600 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,760 show up in your wallet, you can do a separate transfer right out 601 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,960 of your wallet. That's all tech that exists. 602 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,680 It's all tech that kind of we can, we just have to put 603 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,240 together in one place Nosus Pay as well. 604 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,720 So kind of Nosus Pay is kind of built on the same premise. 605 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,480 So Nosus Pay allows you to connect a self custodial wallet 606 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:56,320 such as the safe under the hood of the metric wallet to a credit 607 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:02,120 card, allowing you to kind of off ramp your crypto anywhere 608 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,920 that Visa is accepted. And kind of building those 609 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:10,840 bridges between the old and the new is how we think we can make 610 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,840 adoption happen. And kind of an example that kind 611 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,600 of I like to use is the telecom revolution, right? 612 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,640 Kind of when we were kids, we had we had we had landline 613 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,600 phones and then kind of when we were like teenagers, Skype came 614 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,000 along, we kind of had Skype, Skype out. 615 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,920 You could kind of call any landline phone for the local 616 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,240 tariff and the way that that worked. 617 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,080 And this is for the younger listeners. 618 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,560 So basically phoning other countries used to be really, 619 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,680 really expensive. So when I was a kid I had an 620 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,680 aunt in America calling her was like the entire family kind of 621 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,560 collecting round the the telephone, kind of saying oh hi, 622 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:53,280 hi Auntie Margaret, how's everything going and so on. 623 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,400 And then kind of we hang up like 3 minutes later and was 10/10 624 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,920 German marks at the time or something. 625 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:06,840 And kind of having that step up to Skype out where kind of you 626 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,000 pay the local tariff regardless of where you phoned that was 627 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,080 that was fantastic in terms of user experience. 628 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:18,400 The way they did it is they kind of they used new rails for the 629 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,880 1st 95% of the call, namely it was routed over the Internet and 630 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,800 then the last 5% were over the old copper cable. 631 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,640 And then kind of as, as this voice over IP protocol kind of 632 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,640 gain traction and other people had Skype too. 633 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,120 You could just do everything over the Internet and kind of 634 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,120 became completely free. And now even when you kind of 635 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:44,080 phone landline phone to landline phone it, it would still be 636 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,120 routed over the Internet. It'll be still be voice over IP 637 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,320 don't actually do this on copper cables anymore. 638 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,200 And I think it'll be the same for financial rail. 639 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,280 So in 10 years, all the infrastructure will be 640 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,840 blockchain based. It's just that we kind of have 641 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,240 to have to take out bids and replace them by the equivalent 642 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:11,920 blockchain infrastructure that is hardier and simpler and and 643 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,800 by and large without people noticing in the process. 644 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,160 So I think the user experience will stay largely the same as it 645 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,840 did with kind of calling someone on the phone. 646 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,280 Yeah, that's a great analogy. I really like that. 647 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,040 And I'm reminded of just how much regulatory push back there 648 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:33,320 was also on Skype and, and all these voice over IP providers 649 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,480 because they were, I think, I think telecom companies saw that 650 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,480 they were going to either have to adapt or you lose a large 651 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:47,480 part of their revenues for, for voice calling, which, you know, 652 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,680 they have, they've made-up with really expensive Internet plans 653 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:52,840 and, and then this sort of thing. 654 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,920 But yeah, I, I, I, I, I think that one of the one, so one of 655 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,240 the use cases I, I absolutely love about this whole like Nosis 656 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:06,240 pay infrastructure is the IBAN to blockchain. 657 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,200 So I, I use Manarium fairly regularly for, you know, 658 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,120 personal use, but also for my, my company and that being able 659 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,680 to send money to send money to an IBAN and it appears on chain 660 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,480 and vice versa, send money from a chain to a bank account and 661 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,000 it, it's instant, it happens in seconds. 662 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,400 I mean, it uses the, the instant SEPA infrastructure rails, which 663 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,160 allows you to get SEPA transfers in, in, you know, less than 10 664 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,880 seconds. It's, it's magic. 665 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,760 It just feels great to be able to move in and out of of a chain 666 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,760 without having to go through like, you know, your cracking 667 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,640 account or some other exchange that on, on ramp, off ramp. 668 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,320 It's so seamless. And you know, there's so many 669 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,920 improvements that that could be made there. 670 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,120 I think just from that particular use case, namely, you 671 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,680 know, with Manarium, the ability just to, to, to swap directly 672 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,440 into that euro coin, etcetera. I mean, I, I think maybe they've 673 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,480 added that by now, but but noses pay is kind of similar where and 674 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,840 and I don't even have a Nosus pay card yet. 675 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,680 I'm just talking from what others have told me. 676 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,480 I need to get one. I need to apply for it. 677 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:22,080 But but yeah, with Nosus pay, you have, you have funds on, on 678 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,160 chain. And if you've used one of these, 679 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,720 you know, crypto to credit card services before, typically what 680 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,880 you have to do is you have to on board, you have to, you have to 681 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,840 top up your card, right. So you have to send money to an 682 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:40,000 address, then it shows up on the card and and then you can make 683 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,880 your payments. But but here the the card is 684 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,720 actually signing a transaction on chain on your account. 685 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:49,080 And so you don't need to do this, this kind of top up thing 686 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,240 that introduces some interesting privacy issues that I'd love to 687 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,520 get your opinion on as someone who I know is like very 688 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,520 particular and it's sort of careful about, you know, your on 689 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,080 chain privacy. What like what are the risks 690 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,800 that people get into here when using this card where 691 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,160 essentially every not now, not just on chain transactions, but 692 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,640 also their their real world transactions, like every time 693 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,520 they buy a baguette, you know, which is for me every day. 694 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,880 Yeah, that shows up on chain. What's the, I mean, what's the 695 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,880 risk here? And and how do we resolve this 696 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,440 this issue? Yeah, this is the main issue at 697 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,800 the moment. So kind of we decided to kind of 698 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,320 launch this knowing that the privacy was non existent just 699 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:43,360 because there were other other heavy lifts kind of engineering 700 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,600 of of, of, you know, in, in the engineering of this, that kind 701 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,120 of we just need to get out of the door and kind of we couldn't 702 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,040 work on this web. So yeah, privacy shit. 703 00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:00,280 So I mean, currently when you go to your local Baker and you pay 704 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:07,520 22 EUR 90 for a baguette €2.90, the €2.90 payment. 705 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,360 I don't know where you're buying baguettes, but. 706 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,840 How much is the baguette in Paris these days? 707 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:19,160 I get some Paris so like $1.25. OK, this is I need to go back to 708 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,560 Paris sometime. That sounds wonderful. 709 00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:25,280 Yeah. So you, you pay, you pay €1.25 710 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:32,400 for your baguette and that payment shows up on chain. 711 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,840 You you can't see that it goes to the Baker because it actually 712 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,040 goes to the monarium off ramp account. 713 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,880 So odd payments kind of go to the same address and then the 714 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,560 the the settlement of them is actually batched. 715 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,360 We try to obfuscate a bit by kind of rolling different 716 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,640 transactions together, but it's not very good obfuscation. 717 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,800 So you are 100% right that kind of the privacy aspect of this 718 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,760 currently is the Achilles heel. Why do I still use it? 719 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,000 Because basically I think it's important that kind of we iron 720 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,600 out as much of the user experience aspects as we can 721 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,720 when we can. We're we're working on the 722 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,720 privacy aspect. So there will be a privacy 723 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:20,360 respecting version. I don't want to say soonish 724 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:26,680 because letter jinx it also privacy on chain is pretty hard. 725 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,760 But yeah, we're working on it. I know it's a problem and we we 726 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,560 will address it. Yeah. 727 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:40,960 The other aspect here is the regulatory, the regulatory 728 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,760 issue, which is that, I mean, well, I, I know that, that, that 729 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,240 policy makers, at least here in France and, and some at EU level 730 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,320 are pushing for all crypto transactions, whether they're 731 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,520 happening on an exchange or some kind of payment service 732 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:04,040 provider, for that data to be automatically sent to local tax, 733 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:12,280 like the local tax authorities. I think this is, you know, I, I 734 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,280 obviously a massive infringements on people's rights 735 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,120 to privacy where, you know, we're not talking here about a 736 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:27,040 government being able to sort of subpoena or request one's 737 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,960 transactions information because there is a suspicion of a crime 738 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,640 or evading taxes or etcetera. We're talking here about 739 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,760 wholesale all transactions being available to the state at any at 740 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,960 any point in time. What types of technological 741 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,240 improvements can can be made to products like Nosis pay to curb 742 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:55,280 at least to some extent, this infringement that I, it's just 743 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,320 not in place, right. But I, I know that there are 744 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,920 policy makers that are, that are proponents of this sort of 745 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:10,320 blanket, blanket, you know, Gestapo style data collection. 746 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,720 Yeah, So I mean, this is also why many lawmakers push for 747 00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:20,000 CBDC's because basically everything is transparent and on 748 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,880 chain. I think we need to push back 749 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,320 here on a cultural level and say privacy is normal privacy. 750 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:38,440 Basically, I I morally object to having this sort of transparency 751 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,840 for the state. I think how it can be mitigated 752 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,960 and how it should be mitigated because I also, I also see the 753 00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:50,760 legitimate interest of states to collect taxes. 754 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,560 So I don't think all taxation is staffed and so on. 755 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:59,640 I think by and large states deserve to collect taxes and pay 756 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,800 for public goods that way. Obviously the way that they 757 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:12,240 collect them is should be improved in a technological way. 758 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,960 So for instance, we could have something like zero knowledge 759 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:21,880 proof attached to transactions saying OK, this transaction of a 760 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,760 private matter. For instance, I am gifting my 761 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,440 sister €10,000 so she can kind of put a down payment on a house 762 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,320 sort of thing that is not taxed. It shouldn't be taxable. 763 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,600 I kind of attach a proof that this is nothing to be taxed. 764 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:42,240 The state shouldn't have to know whom I'm sending it to or why 765 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:46,680 I'm sending it and so on. Just it should just know that in 766 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,840 principle, this is not a taxable event. 767 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,200 Same for other things. If I sell something to someone, 768 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,440 obviously this is a taxable event. 769 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,760 And this could also be kind of conveyed with A0 knowledge 770 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,680 proof. So I think keeping people honest 771 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,080 and kind of enforcing honesty while at the same time 772 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,400 protecting privacy, this is kind of the Goldilocks zone for me, 773 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,480 and I think we can get there. The one thing that really 774 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:23,880 worries me is how much privacy has already been undercut by and 775 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:29,720 regulatorily captured. And I worry that while 776 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,800 regulators usually say this is to protect and to make sure that 777 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,160 taxes are paid and so on. And I worry that this is not the 778 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,360 only motive and that they will be. 779 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:42,400 Yeah. And that you don't. 780 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,360 Have to worry about it. It's it's actually not the only 781 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,680 motive. Yeah, that they will be 782 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:51,920 resistant to kind of changing this to a way that is 783 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:58,040 demonstrably fair and affected, effective at enforcing taxes 784 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,720 while at the same time still being privacy preserving. 785 00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:05,040 And I think this is a battle we will have to fight generally as, 786 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,720 as, as a people. And we're we're here to fight 787 00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:09,760 it. Right. 788 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:15,320 I, I, I think like the good faith argument that that ZK is 789 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:22,120 the technology that enables states to have oversight over 790 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,960 the types of transactions. I mean, not, not just in this 791 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,240 case. I mean, there's all sorts of use 792 00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:31,680 cases where ZK could allow people to have privacy while 793 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:37,200 ensuring some form of attestation about we could do 794 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:38,560 whatever. It could be a transaction, it 795 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,760 could be someone's where someone's living, it could be 796 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,920 someone's income. Like there's, this is like all 797 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,080 sorts of really interesting use cases that allow us to have sort 798 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,560 of like this best of both worlds type of scenario. 799 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,600 The, the fact that I, I think that these technologies will 800 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,960 never be adopted in full deployment because they don't 801 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:05,000 allow states, nation States and you know, the sort of EU 802 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:14,920 governance machine to have full visibility into people's 803 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,280 dealings. Like I, I, I think that 804 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:23,600 fundamentally this is out opposition with the modus 805 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:29,680 operandi of the European governance system that, you 806 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,200 know, increasingly wants to have more and more data and 807 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,440 information and access to that data information on its 808 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,040 citizens. And I know this not only in 809 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,240 Europe, I know like in other places, like in the states, you 810 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,120 know, like, although the states I think have much better 811 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,160 constitutional protections, but, but many, most European 812 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,240 countries I think don't have those the same constitutional 813 00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:54,440 protections that and, and puts us at risk of, of being becoming 814 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,080 part of this police state. I mean, you can use these 815 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:58,880 technologies for terrible things, right? 816 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,160 I mean, kind of you can, you can do an incredibly effective kind 817 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:07,640 of social school kind of like China has using these these 818 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,920 immutable ledges. I think it's it's a battle we 819 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,560 will have to fight. And I think kind of imbuing 820 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,360 people with the certainty that privacy is normal. 821 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:26,840 Privacy should be the norm. This is something that is, this 822 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,280 is something that we have to do, absolutely. 823 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,000 I want to talk a little bit about the EVM here. 824 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,360 And you know, Gnosis, of course, like you've talked about before, 825 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:44,160 is one of the, the, the, the most OG teams building on the 826 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:50,800 EVM. And the EVM has really dominated 827 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,120 the, the developer ecosystem for block chains. 828 00:53:55,160 --> 00:54:00,440 You know, Solidity is by by a large margin, the most used 829 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,720 smart contract language to build on block chains across the not 830 00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:07,240 only Etherium, but the entire EVM ecosystem. 831 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,480 But Solidity and, and the EVM are next year going to be 10 832 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,600 years old. And, you know, if we're thinking 833 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,120 now that, you know, we're arriving at a place where we can 834 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,440 now start to have applications built on block chains and that 835 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,400 essentially we're sort of in the, you know, I sort of, I sort 836 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,120 of see us as somewhere like I see, I see this moment akin to 837 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,360 the kind of like when when the iPhone came out, you know, we 838 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,840 had the Internet before that, but things really took off when 839 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,120 we had mobile. And that's also when we saw a 840 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:49,240 shift from PHP in the LAMP stack to a very modular and modern 841 00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:54,600 development stack in the form of mostly like Node and, and 842 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,680 modularizing the, the, the, the, the, the development stack. 843 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,920 So like AWS, for instance, and the, the cloud stack have very 844 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,880 modular components that allow developers to kind of pick and 845 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,960 choose and scale their applications. 846 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:15,280 So from the perspective of the EVM, you know, I kind of see the 847 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,960 EVM and Solidity a little bit like PHP, where they're very 848 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,200 important and and crucial to crypto as like a foundational 849 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,520 piece of software infrastructure for crypto. 850 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,640 But I think are going to live in the way of becoming legacy 851 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,560 software. So in 10 years from now when the 852 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:38,880 EDM is 20 years old, you know, do we think that most college 853 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,720 kids you'll be learning to learn learning code Solidity or some 854 00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:46,640 other language that is modern, built for the modular 855 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,520 infrastructure, interoperable, doesn't have the performance and 856 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,560 security issues of the EDM performance, etcetera. 857 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,120 And so that that's kind of like my perspective on the EDM. 858 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,440 And then Solidity, I think probably you don't share that 859 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,600 that perspective exactly. But you know, looking long term, 860 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,360 like 10 years from now, you Gnosis will most likely still be 861 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,360 an EVM chain, but there's going to be lots of other chains out 862 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,440 there that are leveraging modern performance safe, secure 863 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,080 programming languages. How do you see that playing out 864 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,360 long term and in terms of like the EDM's and Salutis market 865 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,440 share? And do you think that it can 866 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,960 continue to to compete and remain relevant in this fast 867 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:37,520 pace, you know, sort of like evolving infrastructure space in 868 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,080 crypto? Yeah. 869 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:44,040 So I think, I think the EVMI think we're not so far, far 870 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:45,360 apart in kind of what we believe here. 871 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:50,000 So I think the EVM will remain relevant kind of as the 872 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,360 underlying. I think people in 10 years will 873 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,120 not learn to program Solidity. But I also believe people in 10 874 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,360 years will not learn to program any other programming language 875 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:07,800 because large language models and other transformer like 876 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,720 software systems will be so good at kind of understanding what we 877 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,720 want software to do that they will build this for us. 878 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,400 So I think this will be abstracted away from us in a 879 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,720 much larger manner than most people currently believe. 880 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,720 And yes, I think kind of what what things kind of compiled to 881 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,960 down below that people won't know about and won't care. 882 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:40,360 Just like they don't know how how kind of your your Python 883 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,840 script today is transformed into byte code that can actually be 884 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,560 executed by by silicon sockets, right? 885 00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,440 Yeah, No, that makes sense. I mean, I, I agree with that 886 00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:00,840 more development work will be done by AI agents like 887 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,600 transformer types. But there remains, I think some 888 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,080 really important things to know about the EVM like performance 889 00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,120 compared to some of the other, you know, paralyzed VMS in 890 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,040 crypto that allow for just like much faster and much higher 891 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,840 throughput. There are the security issues 892 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,520 that remain right in in the form of like re entrancy attacks, 893 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,120 etcetera. And then some features that 894 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:31,400 exist in other frameworks that that don't exist in the EVM like 895 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,640 for example, in the move VM, we have the ability to have keys 896 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,600 that are per application. So this enables some 897 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,960 containerization or of of like security risks, 898 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:48,920 interoperability, being embedded in other languages like for 899 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,600 example, cause and was and being able to leverage IBC, these 900 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,120 sorts of things. Like do do you think that the 901 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,280 EVM in its current form and Solidity in its current form as 902 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,640 being like a very low level blockchain language should 903 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:07,080 include or or do you think that like these features will get 904 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,240 built on top of the EVM as like supplements and other layers on 905 00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,880 top or like this kind of framework approach? 906 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,920 Do you think it makes sense for that to become part of the 907 00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,800 underlying framework like VM framework? 908 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,880 I so I think it goes without saying that if you were to kind 909 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:31,480 of construct the EVM from scratch again today, you would 910 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,440 make some choices differently than kind of we made them back 911 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,360 in the day. I think this is a completely 912 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,640 fairpoint to make. I think almost everything that 913 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:45,360 you mentioned can be implemented on top of the existing EVM 914 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,560 stack. It won't be quite as efficient 915 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,880 as if it were implemented kind of at the lowest possible level, 916 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:58,960 but I think in the in the grand scheme that won't matter so much 917 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:07,360 because the EVM has such a head start in terms of developer. 918 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,680 Attention and kind of resources that have been created around it 919 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:17,680 that competing with it won't just require being a little bit 920 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,320 better here and there, it would actually require being 10X 921 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,440 better. And I I don't see that 922 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,240 happening. So even with paralyzable 923 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:32,920 systems, to a certain extent, we can actually do that by having 924 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,000 different execution environments and then kind of trustlessly 925 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,080 connecting them together kind of like IBC style. 926 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:42,080 So I think there are work grounds for all of these things 927 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,680 and kind of having I think where Ethereum has actually heard 928 01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:53,000 where we can kind of learn from the Cosmos style blockchain 929 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:59,200 ecosystems is having a native IBC type thing. 930 01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,560 So kind of having native interoperability kind of built 931 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:08,240 into the system here. I think this was the largest 932 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:16,320 thing that kind of was neglected kind of for EBM type systems, 933 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,320 but also for that I think we're catching up. 934 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:26,240 So I think kind of at at this point, I would still bet on the 935 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:31,520 EVMI, don't think it's, it's, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put all my 936 01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,640 money on it. I think it's still possible that 937 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,720 it'll be overtaken by other other systems, but it won't be 938 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:43,720 for small efficiency gains. Yeah, No, I think that makes 939 01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:47,840 sense. I, I, I think that I, I, I do 940 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:52,400 think that that this sort of story of PHP and ASP as the 941 01:01:52,400 --> 01:02:00,360 dominant development languages in the 2000s is a comparable 942 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:05,640 analogy where PHP still, I think power something like 60 to 70% 943 01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:10,400 of websites on the Internet because it powers this like 944 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,680 legacy infrastructure or this like. 945 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,680 So I, I think like most of Facebook is built in PHP 946 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,840 WordPress, which is like, I don't know, 50% of the websites 947 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,240 on the Internet, you know, uses PHP. 948 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,600 So there are like a handful of really important pieces of 949 01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:31,320 Internet software that continue to use PHP and that make up for 950 01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,640 the majority of the deployments. But, but new applications, you 951 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,200 know, like new start-ups, etcetera, are mostly building 952 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,720 like using other languages. And that I, I think, I think 953 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:46,720 that this is a similar path that the EVM will take where very 954 01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:51,600 important crypto infrastructure of a compound synthetics, you 955 01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,960 know, unit swap, etcetera, like these very large and very 956 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,600 important pieces of financial rails will continue to use the 957 01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,680 EVM and and and fund the EV miss development. 958 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:09,080 Also, perhaps while, you know, newer applications L twos app 959 01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,600 chains will use other languages most likely. 960 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,840 So that's kind of where I where I see things heading. 961 01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:19,520 I wonder if that makes sense to you. 962 01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,520 Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's what we see 963 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,440 today, right? I mean, a large number of who 964 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:30,360 was actually decided against using the EDM, right. 965 01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,560 So kind of, yeah. Cool. 966 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,080 Maybe just one, one final question here as we wrap up. 967 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,400 So currently Nosis chain is a sovereign chain. 968 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,400 I guess you could even call it a sovereign app chain because it, 969 01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,920 it, it, it is an application that allows you to run financial 970 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:56,040 rails. It runs kind of like very 971 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:59,800 precise and very specific types of, of, of applications. 972 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,120 But will Nosis become an L2 at some point? 973 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,240 Like, is there a world in which Nosis rents its security from 974 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,120 another chain like Ethereum? That's a tough one. 975 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,840 I think as you ask a question, the answer's probably no. 976 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,200 I also wouldn't call Noses an app chain because it's very much 977 01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,120 a general purpose chain and there's all kinds of 978 01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:25,560 applications on it. But I think we will start 979 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:31,360 thinking about L2 is and L ones in a much more yawns way. 980 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,960 So we even see that already with kind of validiums where kind of 981 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:44,400 we see L twos that check into the L1 periodically and kind of 982 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,240 how often that is. Obviously this is, this is a 983 01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:52,240 cadence that you can set, but, but kind of the data 984 01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:57,280 availability is not on Ethereum for cost reasons. 985 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:03,000 It's elsewhere. And we, we also see these, these 986 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:07,280 sovereign roll ups, which some people say aren't actually roll 987 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,880 up roll ups at all. But basically kind of where, 988 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,680 where, where kind of the you can kind of play with how many 989 01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,800 validators you have for that particular roll up. 990 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,320 Kind of what the rules are, how to become A to how to become a 991 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:25,320 validator, how validators are slashed if they misbehave, how 992 01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:29,160 often these chains kind of check in with Ethereum, how much of 993 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,280 their their data they actually process call data or in the 994 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,040 blobs or where else to post them. 995 01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,040 So I don't think this is kind of going to be a binary thing 996 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,720 you're an heir to or you're not an heir to. 997 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,200 It's kind of going to be a continuous spectrum. 998 01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,960 And I think we can actually imagine a word where noses 999 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,760 regularly checks in with Ethereum and kind of posts its 1000 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,240 state to Ethereum. You can also imagine a word 1001 01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,520 where Ethereum does the same with noses, right? 1002 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,160 Kind of where theorem regularly posts the the hash of the 1003 01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,720 Ethereum state to nosis chain that that wouldn't automatically 1004 01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,200 make Ethereum and L2 to nosis, right? 1005 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:09,040 It would kind of just make them Federated in some way. 1006 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:13,920 And I think kind of having a better terminology of kind of 1007 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:19,040 how how chains check in with each other and kind of what the 1008 01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:23,120 trust assumptions are for transacting, transacting between 1009 01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,240 chains. I think this will have to come 1010 01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:29,160 because at this point it's it's not granular enough. 1011 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:31,640 Yeah, I know. That makes sense. 1012 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,120 And I'm going to push back on the app chain thing. 1013 01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:39,200 I think Nosis is an app chain. The app is generalized smart 1014 01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,880 contracts and, but, but I think it's I, I call it an app chain 1015 01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:49,160 because it has a specific, like it has a vertical that is kind 1016 01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,360 of it's go to market and and that vertical is very much like 1017 01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,800 foundational financial infrastructure. 1018 01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,200 And so you know, it's not, it's not an app chain in the same way 1019 01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,920 that like Osmosis is an app chain that has an app, right. 1020 01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,880 And that app is a DEX. And then there's also other 1021 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,600 applications built on top of Osmosis. 1022 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,320 So you could also say that like Osmosis to some extent is a 1023 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,280 generalized, although it's not fully permissionless, but yeah. 1024 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,120 I think I, I, I see where you're coming from and I think this 1025 01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:22,520 makes sense in kind of defining the vertical because what kind 1026 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,840 of different things in the same vertical often have in common, 1027 01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,720 common is kind of how much they're willing to pay for a 1028 01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,200 transaction, how much security they need, right? 1029 01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,480 Kind of. So if you were to have a if you 1030 01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:40,440 were, you had to have a chain that primarily caters to games, 1031 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,000 the security assumptions that kind of you need as a game 1032 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,000 developer are probably very different than the security 1033 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:53,080 assumptions in you need of kind of you want to have the Land 1034 01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:56,760 Registry on chain, right. So, and I think kind of making 1035 01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:02,040 sure that the trust assumptions that come with the same chain in 1036 01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,880 terms of kind of how, how, how the validator is set is chosen, 1037 01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:10,280 what happens if they misbehave, what, what are the, the trust 1038 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,120 assumptions you have for bridging and so on. 1039 01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,279 I think this has to be in keeping with what you're trying 1040 01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:19,240 to secure. And obviously kind of noses 1041 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:24,520 chain is, is very credibly neutral in the sense that it's 1042 01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:29,319 decentralized and no one, one validator kind of you can sway 1043 01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:33,920 the, the, the thing just like on Ethereum, then it makes complete 1044 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:37,800 sense to kind of say, OK, this primarily caters to financial 1045 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,040 applications because obviously financial applications have in 1046 01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,640 common that there's usually money at stake. 1047 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,160 Great. Faraika, this has been really 1048 01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:49,800 terrific. It's yeah. 1049 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:52,040 Being, being in the, being in the guest spot. 1050 01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:53,960 Not so, not so, not so hard, right? 1051 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:55,680 Like I think you did pretty well. 1052 01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:00,279 Thank you. Before we wrap up, I, I do want 1053 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:05,120 to plug Nebular Summit. I haven't talked about here on 1054 01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,080 Epicenter so much. I've talked about it on my other 1055 01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,640 podcast. But yeah, Nebular Summit is the 1056 01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:12,520 interchange developer conference that we are hosting. 1057 01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,520 We Interop Ventures. It is happening in Brussels 1058 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,760 after ACC on July 12th and 13th. So if you're interested in 1059 01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,279 learning about the Cosmos ecosystem, the modular app chain 1060 01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:27,720 ecosystem and so much more, it's not just a Cosmos conference. 1061 01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,040 In fact, this year, you know, we're trying to go beyond 1062 01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:31,640 Cosmos. We're getting more folks from 1063 01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:37,560 other ecosystems, Etherium, the EVM ecosystem, Solana movement, 1064 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:41,080 etcetera. So come to Nebular Summit, it's 1065 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,680 a developer event. So most of the talks and content 1066 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:45,800 is very technical. We'll have developer workshops 1067 01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:47,800 there. There's also an investor speed 1068 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:48,840 dating. So if you're interested in 1069 01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,560 meeting PCs to pitch your idea and hopefully get funding, you 1070 01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:55,120 can also do that. You can apply for that. 1071 01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,200 Everything is available at Nebular dot Builders. 1072 01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,520 So here you can apply for investor speed dating and also 1073 01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:03,040 get your tickets. So once again, that's July 12th 1074 01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,640 and 13th in Brussels. Really hope to see you there. 1075 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,720 I'm I'm bummed out you won't be at ECC this year, but I'm sure 1076 01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:10,680 there's gonna be like lots of gnosis people there. 1077 01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,520 So looking forward to seeing those those people. 1078 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,000 Great. Thanks so much, Falika. 1079 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:18,320 Thank you for having me on.