1 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:16,400 Welcome to epicenter episode 49 teeth show, which talks about 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,400 the Technologies projects and people, driving 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,900 decentralization, and the global blockchain Revolution. 4 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:23,200 I'm Sebastian Cujo. And I'm here with my trusty 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,900 co-host, Felix, couch, and today we're talking with Ryan, zarur? 6 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:31,200 He is the founder of dialectic and also, So a super-early 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,400 epicenter listener, these OG epicenter listener. 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,100 One of few that I've stuck around, all these years and was 9 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:42,900 on the podcast, Believe It or Not 250 ish episodes ago. 10 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:46,300 So half of the life of epicenter, but yeah. 11 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:48,800 So today we're going to be diving deep into a whole bunch 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:54,600 of topics including n FTS psychedelics and maybe talking 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,400 about some investment strategies a little bit beyond that. 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,700 We also talked about defy and What he sees coming coming down 15 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,099 the pike in the future. Hey Ryan, thanks for joining us. 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,700 Thanks very much for having me and you don't want. 17 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:13,300 As I mentioned before very sincerely. 18 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:17,400 Thank you for all the work that you guys have done over going on 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,500 a decade. Now I remember that epicenter 20 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:27,900 became an outlet for me. I think Roma 2014 era in in 21 00:01:27,900 --> 00:01:31,500 recognizing that like ah this When Community wasn't really, 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,500 the thing that I was after, and that there are other people who 23 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:37,600 are, who are thinking about things Beyond Bitcoin and, and 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,200 how this technology could be used, and you guys were really 25 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,800 the leaders in going Beyond Bitcoin, you know, at that time, 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,400 it was called epicenter, Bitcoin. 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,400 And and and then you generalize that and that important 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,200 ecosystem building, you know, I can't overstate how how 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,300 fundamental that has been to to the growth in the education of 30 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:01,200 the space overall. I'm so Very grateful for this 31 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,900 work that you've done over all these years. 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:05,600 Oh thanks. Thanks for saying that. 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,500 And yeah, it has been almost 10 years. 34 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:14,100 It is sometimes difficult to Fathom. 35 00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:18,000 How long you guys could throw like a huge party for the decade 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,600 and like, have I don't? I'll kinds of guest Comer, 37 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,600 something like that. Do a big live, like multi, you 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,300 know, like multi-person podcast or something could be great. 39 00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:31,700 It's important, right? The work that you guys do is 40 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:34,100 really important. No, thank you. 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,200 Yeah. But so you were on in 2018, on 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,100 episode 25 to 49. So, maybe for our listeners who 43 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:45,200 aren't familiar with your worker, who haven't been 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,800 listening for? As long as you have, can you 45 00:02:46,808 --> 00:02:49,200 give us a bit of background about yourself and you know how 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,100 you got here? Sure actually in November, I 47 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,500 celebrated a decade in the game myself. 48 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,700 You don't early investor in the etherium make or do polka dot 49 00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:07,600 file, coin definity file, or Solana near Rowdy, capital x, 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,500 infinity many others. I came into Polly chain capital 51 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:18,100 in the weeks after Olaf, founded the company and led a lot of the 52 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,300 early stage, a private Investments. 53 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:26,200 That time, we created a document called the Saft and that was a 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,800 really good really good mechanism that we use and I 55 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,600 continue to use. And so at this point I think 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,800 what I'm most known for in the spaces having been at the eye of 57 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,000 the storm of all three major Cycles. 58 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,000 So mining in 2012, 2013, you know, I cos and staffs in 2017 59 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,900 and then play during gaming. And NF T's in 2021, been 60 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:53,800 grateful to just be in the mix and and be doing my thing. 61 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,600 All these years, just love it and couldn't imagine anything 62 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,300 else cryptos a strange addiction. 63 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,800 Yeah. How did you I don't remember the 64 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,100 story that with how did you meet all off and and become a partner 65 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:11,500 at Polly chain? Yeah, I'll tell you the real 66 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:15,400 story which I don't think I've ever mentioned publicly. 67 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:21,399 I was talking with Pantera about putting investment into them and 68 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,100 I said I'll make an investment in you guys. 69 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:28,200 If you make any Theory, mm fund rather than a Bitcoin fund and 70 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,600 this is in 2015 and they literally Scoffed at me they're 71 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,300 like and I was just like you know what, like I'm gonna go do 72 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:41,500 this and so the Dow came up and I participated very expressly in 73 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:46,400 the Dow was fortunate to be to be called by majority Ballina. 74 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,500 On A Strange Day to contribute to the the Dow white hack 75 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,600 attack. And then after the Dow blew up, 76 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,700 I was like, okay, well, I was going to work as a venture, you 77 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:59,700 know, partner for the Dow, this didn't work out. 78 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:04,300 So I won around and look for who are the smartest people doing, 79 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:07,700 do you know, Venture style crypto Investments because I had 80 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:10,100 been doing some angel stuff. I had already written a check to 81 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:12,700 make er Dao and obviously putting into your theorem 82 00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:16,500 crowdfund, a bunch of others and and met Olaf. 83 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:22,300 And we hit it off right away and, you know, and we got going 84 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:26,200 with with Pauly chain and, you know, that that's an example of 85 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,700 something that What you look for in startups, is for what I call 86 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,200 a company getting slippery, where it's growing at a pace 87 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,000 that you kind of can't keep up with. 88 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:39,200 And we felt like that in in poly chain. 89 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,400 There's this one moment I think it was actually the bank or Ico 90 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:48,700 where we had just passed 100 million a um and it was just two 91 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:52,300 of us and I'm an apartment in San Francisco and these guys 92 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:55,100 raised a hundred million dollars and we looked at each other we 93 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:58,200 was like geez these this probably five people Apartment 94 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,400 who just raised all this money. This is crazy. 95 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,300 Then we kind of looked at each other and realize like, where we 96 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:06,300 were and what we were doing we right, okay. 97 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Back to work and so yeah, it was, it was a really fun time. 98 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:15,600 We remain good friends, but I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing 99 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,200 with dialectic, you know, automating yield in in Market 100 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:26,400 neutral and, and just taking a very programmatic approach to, 101 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,100 to Being in the major categories of crypto here in Switzerland 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,700 and being here in Switzerland, I think is is starting to pay off 103 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:36,900 as an important strategic decision. 104 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:40,300 Yeah, we definitely want to get into that a bit. 105 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,900 I think, for me personally, one of the first things, I think I 106 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:47,600 read from you was around like, keepers in Block Chain networks, 107 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,300 I see you like sort of evolved that topic over time can you 108 00:06:51,308 --> 00:06:53,900 maybe explain to us a little bit? 109 00:06:53,900 --> 00:06:56,800 You know what what you were thinking about there and maybe 110 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,500 also how it your view has changed since I think initially 111 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:02,100 you were thinking about just like in 2017 and obviously we're 112 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:05,900 like six years later now. So yeah, curious what your 113 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:09,000 current thoughts are. Originally, we were thinking 114 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,300 about that in terms of maker doubt because I co co rewrote 115 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:20,800 the white paper with with with Rune and Amanda and Nikolai, and 116 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,800 shout out to neckline who we tragically lost last year. 117 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,500 He was so important for our space and I miss him 118 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:32,900 tremendously. And you know, because we were 119 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:36,600 generalizing Beyond just Bitcoin in mining, I started to think 120 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,700 about it in terms, Zuv. Okay, there's a resource 121 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:43,300 provider layer that provides some important resource. 122 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:46,800 And then there's a user layer that uses this resource. 123 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,500 I'm, you know, one of the better examples are cleaner examples to 124 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:53,300 describe as file coin. Where that instead of mining or 125 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:55,800 transaction, confirmation its storage. 126 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,700 That is the resource layer and that's like the keepers and in 127 00:07:59,700 --> 00:08:03,000 defy that wasn't called defy at that time. 128 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,400 But in liquidity networks and financial Networks. 129 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,500 The key resource is liquidity provision so people who provide 130 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:15,800 the market making and liquidity are kind of like the miners of a 131 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,000 of a of a liquidity network but we didn't really want to call 132 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,600 the miners. Zookeepers became the term that 133 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,700 came up in that in a long late night conversation between 134 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:33,700 Nikolai and I and that and really was just about describing 135 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:36,900 these networks as the resource provider layer and the user 136 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:41,799 layer and The user layer is subsidized by the inflation that 137 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:45,600 the resource provider gets over the bootstrapping arrow, which 138 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,600 were kind of coming to the end of an in Bitcoin. 139 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,600 But we can see, we're still in the bootstrapping are of many 140 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,300 other resource networks and this can be applied to too many many 141 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:58,700 things Beyond just, you know, financial transaction, 142 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:01,800 verification like in in a theorem and Bitcoin, you know, 143 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,200 file coin with storage. But I think there's a good 144 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,400 argument that it could be done with ISP. 145 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:10,500 Bees with energy networks. With you know anything that was 146 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:14,200 a Marketplace can be turned into a protocol with these two layers 147 00:09:14,500 --> 00:09:18,300 where the user layer is subsidized and that's ultimately 148 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,900 the concept of Keepers is that there's a there's a resource 149 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,500 provider that subsidizes the users to get the service for 150 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:31,400 free or nearly free. how is your thinking evolve and like from 151 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,900 when you wrote those first articles which I believe is a 152 00:09:34,908 --> 00:09:41,400 couple years ago has that thesis changed over time now that that 153 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:45,600 resource providing networks are a little bit more mature and and 154 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,100 also since these networks are no longer operating in isolation 155 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:55,100 and increasingly operating in sort of network of their own 156 00:09:55,100 --> 00:10:00,700 right with interoperability I think like if you broaden the 157 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:03,800 definition enough, we actually see it continue to replicate 158 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:09,500 with fairly High Fidelity. So, for example, the newest 159 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:13,400 types of networks that we see are in play during gaming, where 160 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,500 the resources, incidentally, our eyeballs playing a game and they 161 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:23,700 are subsidized by inflation of an underlying token with that 162 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:25,400 game. So the first example that we saw 163 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:31,100 of that with success was actually, And generally, I just 164 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,100 think that that's a really powerful like fundamental 165 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:39,500 mechanism of crypto is that we can use inflation over a period 166 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:42,800 of time to bootstrap Network effects. 167 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:47,600 And then once Network effects kit can we can modify the, you 168 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,500 know, the economic trade off such that transaction fees are 169 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:56,200 are are more Paramount and and it's less about inflation. 170 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,800 So I think as game Ames games evolve. 171 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,500 What we're going to see next is we're going to see zero-sum, 172 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:04,500 right? Which I've actually been wanting 173 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:07,400 for a while, so today it's inflationary. 174 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,700 So if I play you in a, in a play during gaming context, you know, 175 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,700 and you win, I don't lose. You just win and and the cost is 176 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:21,300 socialized, across the whole network via inflation, where 177 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:26,800 it's going to flip is, is you win I lose now, there are some 178 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,200 questions of whether that On runs and to gambling and gaming 179 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:31,500 regulations and things like that. 180 00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:36,400 And I think, you know, we'll sort those out over time but I'm 181 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,100 actually quite encouraged that. The general concept of Keepers 182 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,500 continues to you know, be relevant in the space. 183 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:48,500 There's been, you know, I see it be used all the time which is 184 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:50,400 really heartwarming. Like there's been like Dows 185 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,200 called keeper Dow and keep her this. 186 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,700 And so it's it's been nice over time to see that and see all the 187 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:57,800 things that that I've tried to make a call. 188 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:02,500 Attribution to the space in be relevant and be used by by folks 189 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:06,200 and so it's great. Right. 190 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,900 I think I mean yeah maybe it would be curious to hear I 191 00:12:08,908 --> 00:12:12,100 guess, you know like actually Infinity was successful I guess 192 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,300 for a little bit in the market, then sort of the engagement I 193 00:12:15,308 --> 00:12:18,900 guess, dropped off to you. So you think that's going to 194 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,900 change and like future future iterations or like sort of where 195 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:27,000 do you do you think maybe these first play to earn gave sort of 196 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,600 failed? Or what's there to entry? 197 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,600 Yeah, so I think the lesson learned that we take away from 198 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,700 from Maxie is and just be clear. It's like it's a lot of the same 199 00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:43,900 lessons that we that we've had in previous, you know, 200 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:49,900 iterations in crypto is that that crypto economic design is 201 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:55,900 really important and changing it in the middle of the road can be 202 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 catastrophic. You know, the allegory that I 203 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:05,300 would use is that In layer ones, the crypto economic design of 204 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:09,600 the initial team distribution and how rewards are dulled out 205 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,600 over time either to validators or to Timor to community or to 206 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,500 investors. Those can those decisions can be 207 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:20,500 catastrophic to a project? I was part of the debate around 208 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:25,300 etherium is choice where they ended up going 9.9 to team 9.9 209 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,800 to foundation. And I thought that was a great 210 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,900 precedent but then we saw many other projects. 211 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,600 Deviate from that precedent over time and really do themselves. 212 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,400 A gigantic disservice, you know, the, you know, they start to be 213 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,400 calling VC coins. They lost Community from that 214 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,000 and, you know, and ultimately these things rest on on, on a 215 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,600 community with actually, you know, we didn't know how how 216 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,700 these things would we evolve and and then the change, I think 217 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:02,100 created a somewhat of a mistrust because I think we Estimate. 218 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:07,000 The fact that like very literally millions of people 219 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,500 were doing this as their job. And there is this Narrative of 220 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:13,300 like, oh Nova play the game because the game is fun and I 221 00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:14,300 was like, man. I know. 222 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,200 It isn't like, I like to play this for a job and guess what? 223 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,300 That's fine. Financial incentive ization is 224 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:24,500 okay, and if that means that they're playing a game and they 225 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:28,200 otherwise would not. That's, that's fine because you 226 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,500 get to bypass the hundreds of millions and Billions of dollars 227 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,400 that it would require to to acquire customers to acquire 228 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,600 eyeballs in Instagram ads, and TV slots and and all these other 229 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,200 things, you just go right to the customer and you say, hey Will 230 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,000 incentivize you to put pay this game. 231 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,700 Play this game and I think that's the powerful thing. 232 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:55,400 Not how great the game is. And so what I look for today, 233 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,000 you know, we get, we get tons of pitches of like we're going to 234 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,900 make a AAA quality Crypto game, I'm like a night, you know, and 235 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:09,300 be you don't need to. You can make a pretty break 236 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:12,800 bones game and just build community bootstrap that through 237 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,500 the in financial incentive ization. 238 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:18,500 The other thing is, I think games will get more elegant in 239 00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:23,400 their crypto economic design. So, you have to balance the like 240 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,300 you can't have pay-to-win where I can just like, pay to have 241 00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:30,400 like the greatest swords and just like be running roughshod 242 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,700 through game like, I'm some kind of monster, right? 243 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:38,600 So the gameplay has to be half has to be High Fidelity to 244 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,000 talent and skill. However, you can have a condom 245 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,400 he's that kind of support the game in, you know, whether it's 246 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,600 like, like, providing resources or or like re-ups of energy or 247 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,800 various things like that where you can make for a more epic 248 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,100 experience that is supported by an economy. 249 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,800 And again that's where you have like user layer and keeper layer 250 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:02,400 read it. Deeper layer could be like the 251 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,000 providers of resources, swords would whatever it is and they're 252 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,600 going around a mining that in the game and consolidating it 253 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,300 and selling it in their shop. Whereas, the like the Warriors, 254 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:19,100 the game players, they there's is one based solely on skill. 255 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,500 I haven't seen a model that has completely solve that, but the 256 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:28,100 good thing is, there's lots of experiments and I'm very 257 00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,300 confident that will solve it as a community over time. 258 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,400 So one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on was because 259 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:39,000 you know you're so plugged into like the nft space and also the 260 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,700 gaming space and this is, these are verticals in crypto that I 261 00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:46,200 don't have very well form Theses about and I'm sometimes a little 262 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,200 bit skeptical of and you just said something that sort of 263 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,100 opened my mind to this concept that I think, you know, it 264 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:57,900 overlaps with a lot of other verticals and crypto and that is 265 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,500 that Yeah, intermediary elimination. 266 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:05,300 So essentially with gaming, you know, as you said you the the 267 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:10,900 game developer can bypass the the intermediaries that they 268 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:14,200 would usually interact with. So like marketing for instance 269 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,099 in order to or like need these intermediary costs in order to 270 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:22,700 attract players but by directly incentivizing players, they 271 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:27,099 don't have to have some of that like intermediary actor or cost 272 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,000 center. To attract the players, they 273 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,300 just attract the players directly. 274 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:34,700 And so it's sort of like eliminating the need for for 275 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,200 that intermediary, that middleman in the same way that, 276 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,000 you know, Bitcoin or other cryptos eliminate, the need for 277 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,600 other types of intermediaries with, with regards to gaming, 278 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,500 what do you think is necessary for sake like this this style of 279 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,800 gaming to have? It's, it's kind of mass Market 280 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,700 moment. I ask you this because I'm, you 281 00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:02,600 know, I know folks that works at Ubisoft or, you know, I've 282 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800 talked to say, Innovation departments there that are 283 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,000 looking at crypto and and from from the perspective of like 284 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:14,400 traditional game designers or game studios, there's this I 285 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,400 think this notion that the business model the crypto 286 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,000 business model, doesn't make sense for the economics of 287 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,800 building mass-market games, the costs millions of dollars to 288 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:32,000 produce Is is crypto gaming fundamentally, you know, 289 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,900 orthogonal to the traditional way that we think about building 290 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:40,500 games or do you think there's a, there's a middle ground here 291 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:43,600 that will, that will achieve at some point. 292 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,300 I would say my observation and these interactions with with 293 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:54,800 like epic and Ubisoft and and certainly like the drama around 294 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:01,400 Discord and things like that is more that you know, the 295 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:07,100 innovators dilemma continues to Prevail and that very rarely, 296 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,000 the incumbent will be the leader in a new Deluxe in the new 297 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,600 up-and-coming category. This is true across technology 298 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,600 in so many fields. And so, I don't think that, you 299 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,700 know, Ubisoft or AAA game manufacturers with with armies 300 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:32,200 of teams and, and the corresponding drama and politics 301 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,900 that are inherent in, in those size of teams will be the ones 302 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:41,700 that that catch fire here. I think that there, it's easy to 303 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:45,100 dismiss some of the core tenants and the power. 304 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:50,200 ER, of of crypto communities until you see it unfold. 305 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,000 And I think that that's what's going to happen and so like, you 306 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,200 know, they say, wow, you need all these millions of dollars 307 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,300 and an upfront cost and you do and you have to build, you know, 308 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,400 mass-market user base. It's like, well you could 309 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,900 actually kill two birds with one stone and get you know, like by 310 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,800 funding it, through the crowd and getting your community on 311 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:20,500 board both As users evangelists as well as as you know asset 312 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:23,600 holders. That's a great way to bootstrap 313 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,600 all of this together and and so crypto uniquely enables that the 314 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:34,400 the other component of this is I think it would be important to 315 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:40,800 set a parameter for what is like Mass market adoption. 316 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:46,100 There is a point in 2021 where there's about 480, A thousand 317 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:50,000 daily active users of ethereum, addresses, and about four 318 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000 hundred and ten thousand daily active users of Axiom, finity a 319 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,800 ronin addresses and you know, it's really inspiring. 320 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,300 In fact being like in the space as long as I have been, there's 321 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:09,000 two stories that I find the most inspiring in the history of the 322 00:21:09,008 --> 00:21:11,800 space. The one is all the people in the 323 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,100 Philippines who were able to replace their job. 324 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,100 Plane actually Infinity during covid right there, you know, 325 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:22,200 there is no, you know, there's no government, bailout, or 326 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,800 handouts during covid, like they had to figure out a way to 327 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,100 survive, and they were able to replace their job that they lost 328 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:31,100 in tourism or manual labor, by playing this game. 329 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,900 And it became so culturally ingrained that, like, people 330 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:38,400 would buy houses and in the in-game currency and like, like 331 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,000 cities were operating using this crypto asset. 332 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,400 And I think that that's really important, especially as we see 333 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:48,000 a II am L, you know, take the World by storm. 334 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,400 We're going to have to get real about alternative approaches to 335 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,000 to effectively Ubi and and for me, these games could affect a 336 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:04,200 best first attempt at Ubi and and we've had glimpses of that 337 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,400 happen. And so it just conclude the 338 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,300 second really inspiring story and and I think this may be the 339 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,800 next topic that that we can discuss. 340 00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:19,900 Are these artists these digital artists who for so long? 341 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,200 Didn't have a way to commercialize their work because 342 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,200 if you bought a piece of digital art and somebody copied, it you 343 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,500 didn't know who had the original who had had the copy and so 344 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,200 there was no, like, scarcity of it. 345 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,600 There is no collectability there. 346 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,500 And with the Advent of NF tease, these digital artists were able 347 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,300 to, to commercialize their work for the first time. 348 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,100 And, and, and that was really amazing. 349 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,300 I'm like we saw all these rags-to-riches stories that in 350 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,400 an industry that had been broadly based on the speculative 351 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,900 use case. Until now this I found these two 352 00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:00,100 stories would be really amazing that that artists and the 353 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,800 individuals in emerging countries could bootstrap 354 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,100 themselves and and, and sort of, you know, take a step forward 355 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,100 and be able to provide just a reasonable income. 356 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,100 It, you know, in the case of artist Mike You know, more 357 00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:20,500 commonly known as people he jokes around that the highest he 358 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:26,600 ever got for an everyday before. N FTS was $110, right? 359 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:30,800 And and that's like shows that like Crucible moment of digital 360 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,700 scarcity, conferred, Rarity to his work. 361 00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:39,800 And then that conferred collectability and that then 362 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,800 conferred value and and ultimately for for an artist 363 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,500 Like Mike can confer Early life, changing value. 364 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:49,800 And and those I just find it be really inspiring stories. 365 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,000 And where I want to spend my time, my capital so, yeah, let's 366 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,200 let me talk about in a few little bit and and again, you 367 00:23:56,208 --> 00:24:00,600 know, this is a space that I've sort of babbled in a little bit 368 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,700 like with in crypto verticals, you know, like the fine of T's 369 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:08,700 gaming cetera and you know, I there are moments where I felt 370 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,500 like Yeah, like this is, this is like super empowering for 371 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,200 artists, Etc. Write like this, this narrative 372 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,200 that you'd that that you just expressed, then there's other 373 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,100 moments where I'm like this is a hot shit show and there's 374 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,500 nothing would good will come out of this and you know most of 375 00:24:24,508 --> 00:24:28,400 this will go to 0. Can you break a leg break down 376 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,500 your thesis for how and FTS are, you know fundamentally like a 377 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:36,400 game changer in terms of how artists Express themselves? 378 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,400 And how do we reason about what? actually, of cultural 379 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,200 significance and what isn't, you know, I guess I guess like one 380 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,400 thing I think about a lot is With with with the 2016-2017 381 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:57,200 cycle. 2018 your icos were a big part of the narrative and what 382 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,000 came out of that. I think you know are things like 383 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:06,200 saps or more structured regulated funding mechanisms 384 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,600 like coin list finalists. Yes. 385 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:15,100 Thank you so so I think that you know, from from that exuberance 386 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:20,000 came out like these interesting. Funding mechanisms now within 387 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,700 ft's. I don't know that we've yet, 388 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:25,900 maybe I missed it but like I don't know that we've yet really 389 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:29,200 see. Like what will, what will we 390 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,400 look back on and say oh this is what the nft summer produced, 391 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,500 right? And so yeah maybe maybe she want 392 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:39,800 to expand on that. It's interesting. 393 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:47,600 I think as venture capitalist we were at peace with a cycle where 394 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:53,300 We're 90 something percent of something rights to 0 because 395 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,300 because that, that few percent that survive often go on to be 396 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,600 incredibly valuable. And so whether it's ico's, which 397 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,600 is a really important funding mechanism, or whether it's, you 398 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,700 know, n ftes which is really important representation of 399 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:12,000 digital scarcity for a variety of use cases and I'll talk about 400 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,800 the taxonomy in a minute. I recognize and have gone on 401 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,700 record like in the the height of the bull market of both of those 402 00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,600 saying, yeah, of course, 95% of these will will go away. 403 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,400 And that's fine because the five percent survive will create such 404 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,800 extraordinary value, that it won't matter. 405 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,400 Nobody, you know, nobody will care. 406 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:40,600 And so I think it's really important to to separate the 407 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:46,900 taxonomy of of n FTS because as a technology, it has such wide 408 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:50,700 sweeping a Patient's, right? Like today it's being used for, 409 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:56,500 you know, digital art and gaming and and some like Social Clubs 410 00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:01,000 and and you know, different things, different things in like 411 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,000 that tomorrow. It will be your house deed, you 412 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:11,000 know, your your University diploma, it look and FTS will 413 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,100 Encompass eventually all capital assets but for for today's 414 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:20,700 taxonomy, what But the way that we separated is we look at 415 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,900 digital art, that is somewhat and So within digital art 416 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:28,300 there's some subcategories so you've got I'll go are like Rafi 417 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:31,700 Canada, all you've got, you know, pop culture are like 418 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:35,100 people you've got generative art generator or is kind of cool 419 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:40,600 because that's where a platform, a artist, and a user come 420 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:46,000 together in in a critical moment to create something that that 421 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,600 they've all participated in that. 422 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,900 It's a certain bond between the collector and and that that 423 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:53,800 outcome. And then, you know, you can kind 424 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,700 of go down down the list from from there in art, but that is 425 00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:01,200 different. So digital find digital art is 426 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,000 different than say gaming assets that are supposed to have 427 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,800 utility and that's also different from what we 428 00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,900 considered to be Social Clubs. So something like board. 429 00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:13,300 Apes in its current iteration, is more like a social club, 430 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,300 right? People are signaling to the 431 00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:19,300 world that they you know, can afford to spend Then six figures 432 00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:24,100 on a on a monkey JPEG. And in overtime, it will it will 433 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,100 evolve into being a gaming asset. 434 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,500 We think we hope. And so those are, those are 435 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:33,000 very, very different categories of them, you know, we'll see 436 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,700 music and of teas which there's been some early experiments on 437 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:40,200 and and I think there will be some more will see full feature 438 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,800 films. You know, especially like Choose 439 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,200 Your Own Adventure films where like you can compose like six 440 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,600 nft. Get one outcome and compose 441 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,400 like, you know, 13 to get a totally different film outcome. 442 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,200 Then, than you, otherwise would have Right Down the Line until 443 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:03,000 again, all capital assets are an artiste in the digital. 444 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:08,500 So we with one of one are our collector pool, we focus just on 445 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:13,600 find digital art and not only that we focus just on fine 446 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,100 digital art that we can interface with museums because 447 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:19,800 our mission Mission is to help digital artists. 448 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,400 Find the rightful place in art Canon because again, digital 449 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,200 artists have been completely dismissed in in the art World in 450 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,800 our Cannon for Generations in part because there was no 451 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,500 collected in large part because there is no collectability of 452 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:38,900 their work and that has changed. That's what that's the. 453 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,500 That's kind of the interesting thing in the digital, art 454 00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:44,800 category. And and from there, you know, my 455 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,600 friend Amy couple, that's what has this very famous I've been 456 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,600 Spending a lot more time in the art world because just got you 457 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,300 know, hurdled face first into it with purchasing both the refika 458 00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:00,800 an adult moment piece as well as as human 1 by B people. 459 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,600 And I'm you know met some just unbelievably brilliant people in 460 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,700 the art World. It actually caught me by 461 00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:13,500 surprise how many thoughtful remarkable people spend most of 462 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:17,400 their time and capital and art and my friend. 463 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Amy. A palazzo told me this one piece 464 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,000 of advice, you said look in all categories of art across the 465 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,900 ages. Only about 52 maximum 10 466 00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:32,200 artists, survive, a decade and matter. 467 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,800 And everybody else basically writes 20. 468 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:38,500 And I was like, that's interesting because that's kind 469 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:41,600 of like Venture, right? And so I take a bench or 470 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,200 approach to Art, but what we see is that Upper Crust will 471 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,300 survive, right? That bill Very important, he's 472 00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:54,900 like cultural monikers these these, you know, these things 473 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:59,400 that we identify as representative of our time. 474 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,300 They will survive and be very valuable I'm cautiously 475 00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:09,000 optimistic that that both works of Rafiq ended on em and people 476 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,300 will be among that that discussion. 477 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,500 But I don't know, you know? And that's why I take a 478 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:17,000 portfolio approach and we've got more than 50 artists, including 479 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:23,100 20 female artists in the portfolio and and I find that 480 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,400 that just is really exciting. That very clearly digital 481 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,100 artists Merit being represented in our Cannon very clearly. 482 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:35,900 They have not been properly represented in our can until now 483 00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:40,000 and that will that will change and we can benefit and you know 484 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,100 and captured growth in that regard. 485 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:48,000 Do you think there's like a also maybe like a generational To 486 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,200 this I'll give you like an example that something that 487 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,800 happened recently like I was in Amsterdam and I went to this 488 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,800 this this Art Gallery its place called The Moko Museum and they 489 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,700 had a bunch of nft. They're actually I sent you a 490 00:32:01,708 --> 00:32:03,300 picture right there. Was this there was a people 491 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:09,800 there and I sent you a picture of it and and so I was my fiance 492 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,600 and I were like by far the oldest people in this Museum and 493 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,900 like, you know, or in her late 30s and so and and there Was 494 00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:22,000 just like in the nft room everybody was like climber Dan 495 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,100 nft room trying to take pictures of the nft S and then. 496 00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:29,000 And then we had a very different experience at the Rick's Museum 497 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,400 which is like this, you know, this world-famous it's going to 498 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,000 sort of Fine Arts Museum and in that in Amsterdam where you 499 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,200 know, it's it's an institution, but you know, nobody's like 500 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,200 clamoring to take, you know, pictures of you know, You know, 501 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,700 Van Gogh or something or maybe a little bit, but like not as much 502 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,900 as like this people. So, I wonder if there's this if 503 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:55,300 there's like a very kind of generational cultural 504 00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:59,600 significance, that that this digital art has to a generation 505 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,600 of people that Associates more with like this digital 506 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,400 component, and this from sort of very modern contemporary 507 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:12,100 components. Absolutely, I think this 508 00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:15,400 definitely resonates with a millennial and gen Z audience, 509 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,000 much, more than traditional art. Now, one of the interesting 510 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,100 things that have come out from that is museums, major Global 511 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:28,000 institutions are recognizing this far faster than we think 512 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,100 far faster than I imagined. Like, if a year ago today, 513 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,800 somebody would have told me that we'd have a piece in both m+ and 514 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,000 MoMA. And by the way, the one in Moma 515 00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:42,400 the roof, he can Adele is shattering records, has 516 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,800 completely broken the record for the longest period of time on 517 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,700 average that people spend in front of a work at the MoMA. 518 00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:53,600 We can think about these, the MoMA like ever. 519 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,500 Like this is in front of Starry Night in front of, you know, 520 00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:00,200 water lilies in front of all the Picasso's, all of everything. 521 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,200 Ever the Rafi Canada Liz tracking as you know, as having 522 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,900 the highest engagement and And you know, museums are waking up 523 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:14,600 really fast to to the fact that this matters because post covid 524 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,400 museums are having to get, I think more more creative about 525 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,199 how they get people back to to museums. 526 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:29,100 And and as a result, like, I what I'm seeing is again, I 527 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:32,600 can't speak broadly cross and FTS but in the fine, digital art 528 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,100 category major institutions are filling the hole where the 529 00:34:37,107 --> 00:34:43,600 crypto Community has has sort of like lost lost the narrative and 530 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,500 kind of you know I'm sort of missing the forest for the 531 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,400 trees, right? Like we're too many people are 532 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,000 worried about like floor prices and airdrops and utility and we 533 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,900 got Pompey. Du Lac mom Moma. 534 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,800 You do. M+ look all these Global 535 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,700 institutions acquiring fine digital art and FTS like this is 536 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:09,800 a really big thing. And again if I would have told 537 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,400 you this a year ago, you would have said categorically 538 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,000 impossible if you know, if you know the art world you just 539 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,300 said, no way Pompey do is going to announce a major like 540 00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:25,800 collection overhaul or the MoMA is going to announce the sale of 541 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,100 70 million dollars worth of. They're all important art 542 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:33,400 collection in order to lean into digital. 543 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,300 Right? Like that's a huge huge 544 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,400 movement. And so again like that's kind of 545 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,000 the thing that I find the most compelling, the most interesting 546 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,000 in that will Will Survive and Thrive and create Great Value 547 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,400 over time. Right. 548 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,200 I'm actually sort of curious. I think what you mentioned super 549 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,700 interesting that, you know, we're worried about these a 550 00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:56,300 drops floor prices? Do you think there's some sort 551 00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:59,500 of like I guess there's a big difference between, you know, 552 00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:03,100 bootstrapping a keeper Network, let's say and the way to 553 00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:07,000 incentivize and like the kind of crowd you, you get. 554 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,200 And and maybe in the nft space like how you become significant, 555 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,400 it's probably like a different mechanism. 556 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,700 Do you or do you see like some overlap of how you would like? 557 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:19,500 Sort of bootstrap, these different communities through 558 00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,600 the inside of isolation. Or is it like something totally 559 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,900 different? Yeah, I think in fine in the 560 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:32,300 Fine Art, it's fundamentally different because it's not about 561 00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:37,100 like, creating Network effects because you have like scarcity 562 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:43,800 that drives drives the value and you know, you actually don't 563 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,400 want like velocity in the in the network it's like, let's look 564 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,200 at, you know, let's look at a great collection, which is both 565 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,400 very high quality, Fine Art. And And also has great 566 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,900 community, and in digital art, which is squiggles right now. 567 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:06,300 Fro creator of this idea of this generative, you know, Trinity 568 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:09,900 that comes together. We're collectors feel really 569 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:13,300 deep resonance with that. There's no velocity, but you 570 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:17,900 can't, you know, you can't get a rare skin. 571 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,600 Squiggle a, you can offer whatever you want. 572 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,700 You just can't get it. Like, they're just not like 573 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,500 people like, no, this is mine and it's always mine. 574 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,600 And that is kind of what you're looking for and find her. 575 00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,300 That's a bit that's very, very different than what you look for 576 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:34,500 in like gaming or in in other categories. 577 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,400 And that was, you know, I started out like being like, 578 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,600 okay, I don't know what is going to be cool and then ft so like 579 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,700 let's experiment and all the different categories and then 580 00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:50,500 from a collection perspective kind of narrowed things down 581 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,900 over time to focus on find digital are even though the fund 582 00:37:53,900 --> 00:37:56,900 continues to To do a lot of a lot more things in gaming. 583 00:37:56,900 --> 00:38:00,900 I think, you know, the size of the gaming space will 584 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:04,900 dramatically Clips the size of the Fine Art space. 585 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,100 Like you don't gaming will be multi trillions or art will will 586 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:13,000 stay well and well into the to the like low billions. 587 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,500 And so those are very different. I think you will see like these 588 00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:20,400 interactions of bootstrapping and inflation driving things in 589 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,700 gaming and Fine Art. It's a fundamentally different 590 00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:28,000 mechanism. The art is the utility, right? 591 00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,400 All right thanks. Yeah we definitely so much to 592 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,200 cover like topics and like vertical. 593 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,700 So like we're going to try to make it like a bit of a hard cut 594 00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:42,100 here I think I read like on the dialectic website is like says 595 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:44,900 dialectic is a machine that's of ciphers to unlock exceptional 596 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:49,400 value for our members. Can you expand a bit on what 597 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:55,800 that means? So we are a group built by 598 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,700 crypto natives for crypto natives. 599 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,200 So the vast majority of our members member Families. 600 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,700 Our LPS are you know entrepreneurs that I've done 601 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,200 well with over the years or friends in the space and you 602 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,200 know and and there are a set of of challenges that that that you 603 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,700 face managing significant crypto wealth. 604 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,500 And so everything we do is very Krypto - you don't unchain Jane 605 00:39:20,508 --> 00:39:24,800 and we look at the architecture and portfolio construction from 606 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,600 a crypto natives view with an understanding of the nuances. 607 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,700 The difference between investing in crypto assets that have, you 608 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,300 know, shorter timeline to liquidity higher volatility. 609 00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:40,300 You some advantages, some disadvantages that you can 610 00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:42,000 manage. Then we take a very technical 611 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,600 approach to those. And so, you know, one of the, 612 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,200 one of the things that I think I'm most proud about in and is 613 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,300 very emblematic of what we You is our Market neutral fun. 614 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,500 So we'll ever all of our vehicles are named after Swiss 615 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,900 watch complications and our Market neutral fund chronograph, 616 00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:06,400 which has of today is yielding 18 point, 36 percent annualized. 617 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,700 I think that's probably around four X Out performance of our 618 00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:12,500 peers. And the way that we're able to 619 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,800 do that is we have this software suite called Medici that oughta, 620 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:22,500 mates, harvesting compounding, It automates a bunch of the 621 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,300 analysis of like how to balance pools, how to balance between. 622 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,300 You know, what we've done is we've stacked taken regular defy 623 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,600 and on top of that stack delta-neutral and then on top of 624 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,900 that stacked Mev in Mev isn't like traditional Market neutral 625 00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:43,800 but you can make it Market neutral and it sort of Pops once 626 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,900 in a while when you hit a strat and that's like, you know, when 627 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:50,000 a lottery every day for for a week until it gets hard way, but 628 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:56,100 still Good, and the combination of these things and then having 629 00:40:56,500 --> 00:41:02,400 a software suite that that delivers more security and and 630 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,400 delivers, a programmatic approach of balancing, you know, 631 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,200 when defies down we balance more into delta neutral when delta 632 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,600 neutral is not available because of a variety of things, may be 633 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,300 worth more than Mev more defy. And then we diversify across a 634 00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:24,200 wide range of of pools and having that long tail exposure 635 00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:28,200 allows us to put small amounts of money into like high risk and 636 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,700 Deegan stuff which can have really high yields without 637 00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:38,300 risking going below, zero percent in a month. 638 00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:42,000 So we still remain Market neutral up every month but you 639 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,700 can go and take like Deacon risk on some things if you're if you 640 00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:48,900 isolate it enough and if you have the right infrastructure 641 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,300 around you, so that's like, you know, that's the kind of stuff 642 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:54,300 that that we do. That's very crypto native. 643 00:41:54,300 --> 00:42:00,400 It's very technically driven and I'm really satisfied with the 644 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,500 returns. Radeon. 645 00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:07,200 Super interesting and I guess I wonder is this something that 646 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,400 you have to do like proprietary or is there also like a way to 647 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,200 like sort of built this also fully on train or are there like 648 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,100 elements that you just because of the I guess Mev nature of it. 649 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:21,400 You can like build this into like a network type thing or has 650 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,900 is that something you thought about? 651 00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:30,700 So there are parts of it that we do feel compelled to maybe in 652 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:35,000 the not too distant. Future release to the world for 653 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,600 Community Support. So for example like you know we 654 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,700 have this thing like Bridgewater and and also like pool Watchers 655 00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:46,400 where what they'll do is they'll watch for specific signals and 656 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,700 imbalances in a pool or bridge and then automatically remove 657 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:56,900 Capital should any of those. Oils occur and it and does it in 658 00:42:56,900 --> 00:43:01,400 multi cigs on chain and like the amount of money that would have 659 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,100 been saved by people and in exploits over the last year, if 660 00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,400 you know, if the bridge Watcher was widely available, we've been 661 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,800 really significant. You know, we've seen it play out 662 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,900 for ourselves where we've been been able to get out of a pool 663 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,600 when it was showing these signs and, you know, a lot of other 664 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,100 people got got burned. So I think there is a moment 665 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:27,100 where We open source some of this because it's just important 666 00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:29,600 infrastructure. But then we have to balance it 667 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,000 because like, you know, we're not, we're not a foundation. 668 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,500 We don't like we make money by making money for our members 669 00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:40,900 and, and, and ultimately, we have to do that. 670 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:44,900 First and foremost and and and while these things are producing 671 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:52,100 really compelling outperformance on the yield, You know, where we 672 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:55,100 feel pretty good with where that is, especially in a really 673 00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,000 highly volatile market. Right? 674 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,500 Like, people running, you know, like, hedge fund strategies of 675 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:04,200 liquid tokens or even Venture strategies. 676 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:08,700 I can empathize with, with that this is a more, a very difficult 677 00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:12,100 Market to say fundraising, as well as deploy into because of 678 00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:14,300 volatility and uncertainty, around a whole bunch of 679 00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:16,300 different topics like regulation. 680 00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:21,400 And so, our Market neutral feels like Just Like Home Base right 681 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,500 where we can like revert back to. 682 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,500 We know we make great money for LPS, we know we return great 683 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,300 money to our, our shareholders, as a result and and that that 684 00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,800 just feels really comfortable right now in the sun, these 685 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,700 uncertain times. Tell me a little bit more about 686 00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,400 this bridge Watcher. What kind of things are you 687 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:48,500 looking for in order to detect these signals? 688 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:51,600 Like what signals are you looking at to detect when like 689 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,200 there's a there's a bridge hack going on and what have what have 690 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,500 you learned from that in terms of how these exploits go down? 691 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,000 I mean, there's some really like simple ones just like capital 692 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,500 and balances that you can take. There's a bunch of social 693 00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:10,200 signals that you can also be drawing on. 694 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:19,800 There are You know, there's a rank, I suppose, I shouldn't get 695 00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:24,600 too far into this but some of it is sort of a, what would be 696 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,600 called like a defensive Mev. So you're kind of like any being 697 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:38,300 the bridge to not be any vide. And, and that like that, you 698 00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:44,400 know, Mev broadly is is I often refer to, as like Inception for 699 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,400 crypto. Math Olympics. 700 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,600 And so that goes right down the rabbit hole. 701 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,000 But there's a bunch of Mev strats that, that that have 702 00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:56,900 second-order implications and indications, that that are 703 00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:00,300 certainly important. And then Capital balances, 704 00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,200 social notifications and a bunch of things like that. 705 00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:07,600 Because again, like if somebody is draining from the bridge it's 706 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,200 always going to be like one side of the bridge it drains, right? 707 00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:16,900 And so if you see a delta in that very quickly, And it's to 708 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:20,300 the - right, it's not somebody's coming in with new capital. 709 00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:24,400 It's like someone has taken off Capital then that can be a first 710 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,600 order. Certainly A first order signal 711 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,100 and then you can compare with all the other signals to then 712 00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:34,000 automatically execute the multisig transactions to remove 713 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,100 capital from that pool. Okay. 714 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,000 So, how are you guys? Engaging in the nav space, more 715 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,200 broadly. I mean, you guys have been a 716 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,500 pretty prolific participant in that ecosystem. 717 00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:50,300 What what what what types of things are you are you doing to 718 00:46:50,300 --> 00:46:55,800 engage with the Mev space? So my co-founder Dean spun out a 719 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:01,100 separate organization which we you know which we seated and 720 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,700 incubated a call Project Blanc and together with a bunch of 721 00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:11,600 math phds they run Mev across a number of different networks and 722 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,100 that is about sort of like building infrastructure that 723 00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:21,900 goes beyond the simple sandwich Tack and and he will, he will. 724 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,900 Will literally shoot me if I if I kick Too Deep In The Weeds on, 725 00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:30,200 on his strats. But what I, you know, what I 726 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,900 would say is that, I think it's really interesting because I'm 727 00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:36,800 what we did internally, so he had spun that out that's been 728 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,100 spun out for over a year and they do and they do really well. 729 00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:42,700 It's a cash flow business, it's less of a venture thing, but 730 00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:44,800 they're just run, run, great, cash flows. 731 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,400 And then, the funny thing about Mev is every new layer 1 and 732 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,800 layer 2, Pops up presents a new set of Mev opportunities, right? 733 00:47:55,900 --> 00:48:01,200 And so people are like, ah, yeah, well you know, you're 734 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,100 going to get our, you can get armed away in Mev and that may 735 00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:08,200 be true and you theorem and certainly with like univie for. 736 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:13,300 I think, I think Mev any theorem will be Certainly a full house 737 00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:17,900 at best and probably just like, you know, done not maybe not 738 00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:21,200 done, but a very Full House, very competitive environment. 739 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:26,100 But the thing is, there's so many new layer ones popping up 740 00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:28,800 every single day that like, you constantly have green fields 741 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,100 where you can reapply infrastructure and in other 742 00:48:32,100 --> 00:48:36,700 categories and so we really like what they did, you know and then 743 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:41,800 what we do is we use some of their, their data and They're 744 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,900 their infrastructure to do this defensive Mev and our Market 745 00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:51,900 neutral and, and that helps just like pop pop the yields and take 746 00:48:51,900 --> 00:48:55,900 them from, you know, like mid teens to mid-20s and in this 747 00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:58,800 environment when things are going well, and overall, I think 748 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,200 it's it's an interesting category, you know, I when I 749 00:49:03,207 --> 00:49:06,400 explained Mev to people who have no idea of a crypto, I often say 750 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,100 I like, have you read Michael Lewis's, Flash, Boys. 751 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:10,800 It's kind of like Flash, Boys for crypto. 752 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:15,500 And if you take it to the second and third-order implications, 753 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:21,000 you know, the Advent of Flash Boys and and algo trading at 754 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,800 that time, ended up making for more efficient markets, and I am 755 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,200 firmly of the belief that Mev makes for more efficient markets 756 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,600 in crypto even though. And the funny thing is today in 757 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:39,600 the Mev space, I'm going to preface this by saying this is 758 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,100 speculation and not Confirmed rumor. 759 00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:48,100 But our understanding was the top sort of four players in this 760 00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:57,100 space were Alameda. CZ Finance who may or may not 761 00:49:57,100 --> 00:50:01,700 have been doing very heavy Mev on their own chain, which I 762 00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:05,600 think, I think there will be a long discussion about that if 763 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:15,100 that does end up being the case, Justin sun and And jump and the 764 00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:19,500 three of those four are now gone right there out the door. 765 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,600 And I'm Evie is something that like a cruise to the. 766 00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:25,800 So we were kind of like number five, number six, sort of thing 767 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,300 and it's want. It's a thing that accrues to 768 00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:33,800 the, to the Upper Crust like many things and so, like top to 769 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,500 capture the line share on on a given Network and now that you 770 00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:43,000 have the most like, the largest Most resource intensive players 771 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,200 out of the game. It's really like, you know, it's 772 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:52,200 a very interesting new day and that maybe I would say Actually, 773 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,600 I want to like sort of take it back also to what we said about 774 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,800 gaming and like the bootstrap networks and do you sort of see 775 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,100 a world where like these sophisticated actors I guess 776 00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:03,600 like you know, Mev participants being like sort of more 777 00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:07,300 automated than you know, like person playing a game. 778 00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:10,200 Do you see like an issue there? Where maybe, you know, all the 779 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,000 players end up being Bots instead of like real players? 780 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,300 And how how does the future look like or is this something that's 781 00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:22,600 just like, inevitable? or how can like projects kind of 782 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,800 defend against that let's say ER, So I do think that that will 783 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,500 be, you know, that will be a thing. 784 00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:33,500 There's a really interesting project called altered state 785 00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:36,200 machines that makes autonomous agents for pleasure and gaming 786 00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:38,800 games and there are a bunch of other people thinking about 787 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,100 that. What my hope is on the other 788 00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:48,800 side is that play during gaming will represent an opportunity 789 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,400 for effectively Universal basic income and so people will play 790 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,600 against the Bots to like to earn you know to earn income and and 791 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,700 then log more sophisticated operators will operate the Bots. 792 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:08,400 And it makes for this like human and bought interaction that like 793 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,600 you don't like Mev and like us, The things we're we're greater 794 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,700 levels of sophistication or driving towards efficiency. 795 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,700 You will have checks and balances in overtime rights like 796 00:52:19,700 --> 00:52:21,700 games will have their version of unity. 797 00:52:21,700 --> 00:52:26,100 For that is like bought resistant but then at the same 798 00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,500 time, there still needs to be some Bots because there needs to 799 00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:32,700 be enough players to play against the people and the 800 00:52:32,707 --> 00:52:34,900 people need that. Because again, that's going to 801 00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:38,700 be Universal basic income or it's going to be like one of the 802 00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:43,000 options for Universal. You can go, I always am firmly 803 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,700 of the belief that the future that we occupy will be much more 804 00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:51,100 inspiring. And frankly better than then the 805 00:52:51,100 --> 00:52:54,000 present. And as these things evolve, we 806 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,000 will find solutions for them and it will just be better for 807 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,200 everybody. Yeah, I'm also quite quite 808 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,600 optimistic that that will be the case. 809 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,900 I think that I think it Bears reminding ourselves sometimes 810 00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:11,100 just how early we are and I know there's sort of a meme that says 811 00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:15,100 like people say like you know that about about about being so 812 00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:17,600 early. But we are really fucking early. 813 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,900 I mean there are many people that have interacted with crypto 814 00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:25,200 today. As there were people on the 815 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,200 internet in the earth in the late 90s. 816 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,600 You know it we haven't crossed the billion users Zurs yet. 817 00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:35,200 We're far from it and And yeah, I mean there's like just so much 818 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,500 more ahead of us that I think it's for those of us who've been 819 00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:40,300 in it. So long, it's difficult to 820 00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:44,100 remind to like, sort of remind yourself that that this is still 821 00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:47,900 a very, very early space. I want to take a step back a 822 00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:50,400 little bit and maybe bring it up a little bit more high level, 823 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,300 you know, given the the GE, the current global geopolitical 824 00:53:56,300 --> 00:54:01,000 climate and how is that affected your your thesis about crypto 825 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,600 and you something? really interested in as how has 826 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:10,300 that affected your, how you look at investing in crypto, I'd 827 00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:13,200 start this by saying I would love your your view on this as 828 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,300 well you don't because you're you've been a super smart 829 00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:20,000 investor in the space for a long time and I'm and I really 830 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,300 respect your opinions. Who would love love your view on 831 00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:29,000 this as well? Generally I think for the dream 832 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,500 of why most of us got into crypto in kind of the 2011 2012 833 00:54:33,500 --> 00:54:37,600 era Seems to be coming to fruition, right? 834 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,100 We got into it because we believed ultimately that the 835 00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:44,700 world was going to suffer through a high inflation moment 836 00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:48,600 that the u.s. dollar is maybe the most over valued asset in 837 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,600 the history of the planet and was going to go through a 838 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,800 significant evaluation. And in that environment, 839 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,700 deflationary assets were going to matter much more than they 840 00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:04,500 ever had this sort of, like return to a version of the 841 00:55:04,700 --> 00:55:08,200 Standard once again, and we see this playing out, right? 842 00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:12,200 Like, this is like happening in front of our eyes in this 843 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:16,600 moment. So like broadly, I'm leaning in 844 00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:21,800 to the, into the market and and very confident that we're up and 845 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:28,800 to the right from here. Like, you know, when it, when we 846 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:35,100 start a poly chain, I used to go around saying that by 2023 3. 847 00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:37,200 No. Self-respecting hedge fund on 848 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,600 the planet would be without exposure to crypto and by 2025, 849 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,700 no, self-respecting Capital pool of any kind, you know, pension 850 00:55:44,700 --> 00:55:47,400 fund, or otherwise would be without exposure to crypto, 851 00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:51,800 think of a little precipitated on maybe both of those. 852 00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:57,400 But by like a year to Tops, I do think that we're hitting the 853 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:04,100 knee of the curve that we've long been waiting for and and 854 00:56:04,100 --> 00:56:08,000 that's really Interesting. However, as Venture capitalists 855 00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:13,500 what that means, is that our scarce beef and Bitcoin that we 856 00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:20,100 are then giving to a, an entrepreneur has to perform even 857 00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:23,700 better because we know that like, I know each has a 10 X in 858 00:56:23,700 --> 00:56:26,200 it. I bet the farm on that, right? 859 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,100 So that means, for the entrepreneur that I give money 860 00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:32,800 to be is mine. Like my opportunity cost has a 861 00:56:32,808 --> 00:56:38,500 Neath, he's got to go out and deliver you know, 100 X or more 862 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:45,400 and so it has been you know, it's been making it causing us 863 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:51,700 to pause somewhat and and seek like a more Consolidated 864 00:56:51,700 --> 00:57:00,800 portfolio of very high outcome possibilities I would say on the 865 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,900 Venture side but on with respect to like liquid toe Guns. 866 00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:10,400 I mean I think I don't I don't think a collection of just like 867 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,400 thoughtful like high-quality liquid, you know liquid assets 868 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,500 like Cosmos and Ethan polygon and wormhole on a few others. 869 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:26,300 Just look like so obvious right now in my view and I don't know 870 00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:29,500 maybe I'm maybe I'm just a hammer and all I see is nails 871 00:57:29,500 --> 00:57:33,700 but I think it's like I'm more excited in this moment than I 872 00:57:33,707 --> 00:57:35,600 think I ever had. Been in the space ever. 873 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,900 But what's your take? Like, how do you, how are you 874 00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:42,800 thinking through this from perspective of like the tectonic 875 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,100 changes in geopolitical landscape and how and how that's 876 00:57:47,100 --> 00:57:51,900 affecting you as an investor? Yeah, I mean I wouldn't be 877 00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:55,000 starting an investment fund if I didn't think that we were up 878 00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:00,700 into the right from here so that very that, that idea very much. 879 00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:04,800 Resonates with me. We are also approaching our 880 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,200 investment strategy with a very concentrated portfolio strategy 881 00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:13,800 and which is why we started with a fairly reasonably small sized 882 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,100 fund because we need to deploy it. 883 00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:19,300 And we also wanted to play in really high quality projects 884 00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:26,200 that You can generate 100 tax returns because because we are 885 00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:31,100 our investors are crypto investors or LPS are crypto LPS 886 00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:34,200 and so for them to deploy their, you know, their Ethan, their 887 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:41,100 Bitcoin and and these high-value Assets in, in a fund they also 888 00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:46,100 have to, you know, to have that that that conviction that the 889 00:58:46,100 --> 00:58:50,100 fun will outperform. So that that resonates with with 890 00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:55,000 our Strategy. With regards to where we're at 891 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,600 and and the types of things that we're looking at. 892 00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,900 I think that there Still Remains a lot of infrastructure to be 893 00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:08,100 built and I feel that that that the next cycle is going to be 894 00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:13,900 heavily infrastructure focused. So you know, we've got the, 895 00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:18,700 we've got the initial building blocks of of crypto 896 00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:23,300 infrastructure in the form of a Block Chain networks with like a 897 00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:26,000 decentralized values are set that allows you to settle and 898 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,900 this sort of thing. But the The. the way that that 899 00:59:30,900 --> 00:59:34,200 will look and say five years is going to be very different and I 900 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:41,300 I take a lot of take a lot of lessons, I think, from the way 901 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,100 the web has has sort of distracted, the different layers 902 00:59:46,100 --> 00:59:49,800 of its stack and I see that happening in crypto as well 903 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,300 where you know in the early 2000's. 904 00:59:52,300 --> 00:59:56,700 You know if you wanted to run any website you know like you 905 00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:59,300 had to buy physical server space. 906 00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:03,300 Install a NOS on their, you know, run a web server and you 907 01:00:03,308 --> 01:00:05,800 were essentially operating all of that. 908 01:00:05,900 --> 01:00:09,000 Structure in one machine, which is sort of what blockchains 909 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,500 looking like now. But as things went on all the, 910 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,100 basically the layers of abstraction between an 911 01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:20,900 application and and, and the hardware there's like, you know, 912 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,400 perhaps dozens of layers there and I think that's also 913 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:28,800 happening in crypto what what we need to keep sort of the you 914 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,700 know, our eye on this is decentralization and this is 915 01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:34,800 Why? I like the reason we built 916 01:00:35,100 --> 01:00:37,600 reason we're building this is because we want censorship 917 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:45,600 resistant, scalable applications and we've been I think I think 918 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,800 this space for a long time. The narrative has been that we 919 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:49,600 need to DC. We need to keep blockchains 920 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,600 decentralized and scalable and usable. 921 01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:54,600 That doesn't really matter. We've had the around the wrong 922 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,300 thing. What we really really need is 923 01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:59,100 decentralized. Scalable usable applications 924 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,400 that are decentralized and so whatever the stack looks, 925 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,500 Underneath I think doesn't really matter so much. 926 01:01:06,500 --> 01:01:09,800 As long as the applications, were May retain those properties 927 01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,400 as the applications that are going to matter. 928 01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:15,000 And so we, you know, we need to be careful about what kind of 929 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,700 stock were building. And one of the things I look 930 01:01:17,700 --> 01:01:19,700 here. I look at here, for example, is 931 01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:24,000 like the fact that most RPC providers are centralized, 932 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,000 right? Like that is that's the 933 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,300 centralizing point that we need to address but if if every layer 934 01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:31,900 of the stack sort of maintains those properties, to some 935 01:01:31,900 --> 01:01:34,300 extent, any Applications will also maintain those properties. 936 01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:36,200 So anyway, that's the sort of long winded way to say that I 937 01:01:36,207 --> 01:01:39,300 think like infrastructure is a big part of what, what will play 938 01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:40,900 out in the next cycle. And certainly something that 939 01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:45,100 interop is like highly focused on investing in and where, I 940 01:01:45,107 --> 01:01:46,800 think a lot of value will continue to come from right, 941 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,100 like infrastructure has been over the last five years like 942 01:01:50,100 --> 01:01:52,800 through the outside of like nft using. 943 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,000 And so things like the infrastructure has been a one of 944 01:01:56,008 --> 01:02:01,200 the highs returning verticals or say yeah and in crypto and I 945 01:02:01,207 --> 01:02:02,500 think that will continue to guess. 946 01:02:04,300 --> 01:02:08,200 Oh absolutely. I mean no no no no. 947 01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:13,900 Yeah without question and you could just boil it down to The 948 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:19,200 like the conceptual decision Tree on infrastructure of people 949 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:23,200 outside the space always ask me like why do you like dozens of 950 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,800 blockchains are worth tens of billions of dollars? 951 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:31,600 And I say because the decision Tree on it is a Monumental 952 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:32,900 payout. Like you're talking about being 953 01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:36,900 the financial substrate of the modern world, that's a 954 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:42,200 multitrillion-dollar outcome. So even if it's a point, 01, % 955 01:02:42,500 --> 01:02:45,400 the net present, Value of that you know ten billion dollars 956 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,300 that's why these letter wands and some letter 2's are 957 01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:54,600 efficiently priced at this value, it's not it's not 958 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:58,100 incoherent, it's not irrational. It's actually very rational 959 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,400 because you're talking about literally like the financial 960 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:07,000 substrate of the world and Beyond over the next, you know. 961 01:03:07,700 --> 01:03:11,300 However many decades, you know, I often say there's never been 962 01:03:11,300 --> 01:03:14,800 an industry on planet Earth is Bulls programmable money. 963 01:03:15,700 --> 01:03:21,200 And within that the infrastructure layer is, where 964 01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:26,100 naturally all of the value accrues or not all the value. 965 01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:28,900 But, but the Lion's Share of the value of cruise. 966 01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:34,800 If you look at the like top 10, most successful Venture outcomes 967 01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,900 in the space, I think I think acts. 968 01:03:36,900 --> 01:03:42,000 He's the only one, that's not a layer, one more layer to you do. 969 01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,000 And I think that that's a really Smart investment strategy, 970 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,500 especially in a concentrated fund. 971 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:53,200 I'd actually like your feedback on the way that we look at at 972 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,400 early stage investing in a slightly different approach and 973 01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:02,400 that we have these buckets. So we go conviction thesis 974 01:04:02,900 --> 01:04:07,400 exposure generally as buckets and then we create this long 975 01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:12,300 tail across the different buckets, conviction, buckets, or 976 01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,100 larger bets. Done really deep due diligence. 977 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,500 We know the team, they have traction, all these things that 978 01:04:18,500 --> 01:04:21,200 you would look for. And that's, you know, that's 979 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,400 that's kind of like your traditional Venture place you've 980 01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,200 thesis which, you know, maybe there's like one red flag in 981 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:33,000 there, but you like the team team is always a hard box check 982 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,000 in that one. And and outcome, it can be 983 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,900 really interesting. And then differently than most 984 01:04:40,900 --> 01:04:43,100 Venture funds we have this long tail. 985 01:04:43,300 --> 01:04:45,600 Of exposure. It can be like, Angel checks, 986 01:04:45,900 --> 01:04:52,100 you know, kind of 100 to 300 K that usually rest on is the 987 01:04:52,100 --> 01:04:55,700 technology interesting. Like is this conceptually a 988 01:04:55,700 --> 01:05:00,500 massive outlier outcome or do you really like the the founder 989 01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:05,400 and question and we we leave sort of single digit percentage 990 01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,800 of the portfolio in our Venture book which is called resonance 991 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:13,200 available for these long tail, exposure bats that are somewhat 992 01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:19,400 Experimental and often allow you an option on making a conviction 993 01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,200 bet later on. So like at the at the precede, 994 01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,700 you maybe make this exposure bet because it's a party round and 995 01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:27,400 they're only raising a million dollars. 996 01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,300 So you know, you've right the 200k check and that's really to 997 01:05:31,300 --> 01:05:38,000 like get the information to to then later on make a conviction 998 01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,600 back and in crypto different from Venture. 999 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:46,100 So it traditional Venture would. Tell you that's a waste of time 1000 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,800 but in crypto because you have shorter timelines to liquidity 1001 01:05:50,300 --> 01:05:55,400 and because you have much higher Delta's in the return profile, 1002 01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,700 right? Like things go very rapidly into 1003 01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:02,500 the hundreds of X. Those exposure bats are 1004 01:06:02,500 --> 01:06:07,800 actually, in our view, in our analysis, the exposure bats are 1005 01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:12,000 actually an important part of a coherent crypto portfolio 1006 01:06:12,900 --> 01:06:16,700 because you don't know, you know, you can't constantly 1007 01:06:16,700 --> 01:06:19,200 telling my team, like, don't think you're that smart. 1008 01:06:19,900 --> 01:06:22,600 You don't know what a outcome will be a big, a big outcome, 1009 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,000 and those can be really fast turnaround sun exposure bets. 1010 01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:31,500 Yeah, that like I love how you think about this because as a as 1011 01:06:31,500 --> 01:06:34,500 a new manager, right? Yes yes. 1012 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,200 These are things that that were trying to sort of, you know, 1013 01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:41,500 construct and like put down on paper. 1014 01:06:41,500 --> 01:06:44,000 You know, what is our strategy? And I think when you're 1015 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:49,800 investing as an angel you make investment decisions that that 1016 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,900 affect you and no one else. And and when you're investing 1017 01:06:52,900 --> 01:06:57,800 LPS money, I think it It forces you to have a little bit deeper 1018 01:06:59,100 --> 01:07:02,300 thinking around how you're constructing your portfolio. 1019 01:07:02,300 --> 01:07:06,500 How the, how these allocations, what word for word, portion of 1020 01:07:06,500 --> 01:07:09,300 your portfolio is allocated with like these convictions or the 1021 01:07:09,300 --> 01:07:13,100 these high exposure things. And yeah, this is an interesting 1022 01:07:13,100 --> 01:07:15,700 way to look at it that I'll certainly take back and 1023 01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:22,100 probably, you know, integrators in some form into into into the 1024 01:07:22,100 --> 01:07:22,900 way. We're constructing our 1025 01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:24,200 portfolio. But that, but I think you know, 1026 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,600 when we We have we haven't like, sort of expressed it that way 1027 01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:32,200 but it does it does I think they resemble the way in which we 1028 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,800 have been thinking about how we want to construct a portfolio. 1029 01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,900 I like we have these things that are super high convection. 1030 01:07:37,900 --> 01:07:42,400 And then we have a smaller part of the portfolio that, you know, 1031 01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,400 we've sort of labeled like these high-risk more like high-risk 1032 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:50,200 bets and you know, some something in the middle there. 1033 01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:55,200 So but yeah, it's a it's cool to know that. 1034 01:07:55,300 --> 01:07:58,100 You're also thinking about it this way and so built built your 1035 01:07:58,100 --> 01:08:00,000 control for fellow press strategy around it. 1036 01:08:00,900 --> 01:08:03,200 I'm happy to send you some analysis that we've done on this 1037 01:08:03,900 --> 01:08:06,600 and that's they just look at it because again it you know, it's 1038 01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:10,400 not it's not like normal Venture like this flies in the face of a 1039 01:08:10,408 --> 01:08:12,600 lot of the long-held tenants of normal Venture. 1040 01:08:13,500 --> 01:08:16,800 Yeah. So we had so many other things 1041 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,399 to discuss here but I just realized we're way over time but 1042 01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:23,200 I do want to talk about your work in psychedelics a little 1043 01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,300 bit and then you've been what you've been wanting to talk 1044 01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:28,500 about this as well. So you're also one of the 1045 01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:33,800 founders of Vine VC which is a VC firm that has focused on 1046 01:08:33,899 --> 01:08:38,800 health and wellness and Consciousness and certainly 1047 01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:46,500 psychedelics, you know what? What what are some of the for 1048 01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:48,399 thinking things are seeing in this space? 1049 01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:50,899 And what's your involvement with maps? 1050 01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,700 This multi-disciplinary Association for Larry. 1051 01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:58,100 Likes a good audience. Yeah, science. 1052 01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:03,100 Yeah. It started just very quickly, it 1053 01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:07,899 started, when I went with a friend of mine to to Peru, he 1054 01:09:07,899 --> 01:09:11,399 was dealing with a really debilitating addiction problem, 1055 01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:14,300 and I saw the transformation that he went through, and I kind 1056 01:09:14,300 --> 01:09:16,800 of went like, okay, like something's going on here, this 1057 01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,500 isn't just people tripping out the forest, you know, mental 1058 01:09:20,500 --> 01:09:25,000 health is a massive is the largest pandemic that mankind 1059 01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:29,300 faces before the pandemic. One in five people, People 1060 01:09:29,300 --> 01:09:30,800 suffer from mental health problems. 1061 01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:32,300 I think. Post pandemic, it's probably 1062 01:09:32,300 --> 01:09:36,899 close to maybe 40% of the globe. So there's a problem. 1063 01:09:36,899 --> 01:09:42,100 And ssris are not doing them are not a solution and I think you 1064 01:09:42,100 --> 01:09:45,000 know, for many people who have tried a psychedelic therapy of 1065 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,100 any kind that you realize that it's wonderful experience both 1066 01:09:49,100 --> 01:09:51,800 for curing the SEC as well as betterment to the well. 1067 01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:55,500 And so I just kind of wanted to like learn more about this. 1068 01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:58,700 So I I spun up a very small separate. 1069 01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:05,600 Experimental fondant in Vine which is now kind of it got 1070 01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,100 really slippery and took a long. It took a look on a life of its 1071 01:10:09,100 --> 01:10:12,200 own and we've been fortunate enough to back some really 1072 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:13,700 interesting things in mental health. 1073 01:10:13,700 --> 01:10:16,500 So like you should try other ship. 1074 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,900 If you can if it's in your in your area, it's a community and 1075 01:10:20,900 --> 01:10:24,800 people in crypto would really resonate with other ship using 1076 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:30,500 holotropic breathwork and hot cold therapies to 2 + Community 1077 01:10:30,500 --> 01:10:35,600 to like take a new approach to mental health, but the most sort 1078 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,800 of the highest conviction bet that we made certainly was in 1079 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,500 maps. I'm so Maps is the 1080 01:10:40,500 --> 01:10:44,500 multidisciplinary association for psychedelic science, 37 1081 01:10:44,500 --> 01:10:50,100 years as nonprofit led by Rick, doblin to bring MDMA over the 1082 01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:55,800 line of FDA approval. They will get that FDA approval 1083 01:10:55,900 --> 01:11:00,000 by February March of next year. Ear and then they can actually 1084 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,800 legally sell MDMA in North America for PTSD. 1085 01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,800 But very quickly. I think you'll see The Dominoes 1086 01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:13,100 fall for depression as well as couples therapy MDMA for I 1087 01:11:13,100 --> 01:11:17,400 funded a study in couples therapy a couple years ago and 1088 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:22,800 the results are shocking of how effective it is for for for 1089 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,600 couples, going through various challenges. 1090 01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:32,000 You know, generally I just like I didn't look at this as like a 1091 01:11:32,008 --> 01:11:35,100 for-profit thing because again like we work in the most 1092 01:11:35,100 --> 01:11:36,600 profitable industry on the planet, right? 1093 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,500 Look, if I want to make money, I'll go over crypto, right? 1094 01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:42,200 Like, you know, nothing's more profitable and programmable 1095 01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:44,600 money. I just looked at it as kind of 1096 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:49,000 an exploration project that where I wanted to be a good. 1097 01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:52,700 Custodian of LP Capital, I'm very grateful for the LPS that 1098 01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:58,400 have supported Vine and very You know, very happy and very 1099 01:11:58,500 --> 01:12:03,200 optimistic about the returns that they will have but you 1100 01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,200 know, ultimately just playing around on the capital model 1101 01:12:06,700 --> 01:12:10,400 because these are, you know, this is the largest problem that 1102 01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:15,600 mankind faces and Maps is unquestionably, the leading 1103 01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,700 organization. They've been a non-profit and I 1104 01:12:18,700 --> 01:12:21,200 would like them to be able to stay a non-profit because I 1105 01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:25,800 think the social experiment of a non-profit leading a Pavel 1106 01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,900 Pharmaceuticals category is really important. 1107 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,100 I think if we could prove to the world that you don't need these 1108 01:12:34,100 --> 01:12:38,500 20 or patents and Pharma margins and the whole Farm industrial 1109 01:12:38,500 --> 01:12:41,600 complex to deliver life-changing therapy. 1110 01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:46,700 I think that that really matters and so I designed a SPV 4 maps 1111 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,800 last year which I led and we would raise been under fifty 1112 01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:55,100 million dollars. And and what that was was a 1113 01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,900 Revenue share. So you could as a for-profit 1114 01:12:58,900 --> 01:13:01,000 investor, you could you could make money. 1115 01:13:01,300 --> 01:13:05,600 As you know, Maps has has increasing revenues but then 1116 01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,400 there is a reciprocity component to it. 1117 01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:11,200 So as you make more money as you go, you know, 2X and 5x. 1118 01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:16,100 And and you know, 8 x Mo I see on your return you give 1119 01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:19,400 progressively more back to maps. The organization's of the can 1120 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,600 stay nonprofits that can fund other other research and other 1121 01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:28,200 philanthropic entities. And we're kind of coming up to 1122 01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:33,900 two maps, needing to do another fundraise to get to the point of 1123 01:13:33,900 --> 01:13:36,800 sustainability. They would need probably around 1124 01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:42,500 another 60 to 80, and I have started to think about you. 1125 01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:47,300 Don't how much overlap there is in crypto and and psychedelics. 1126 01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:50,100 Like, these are my two life's two, passions. 1127 01:13:50,100 --> 01:13:53,400 And I've constantly tried to keep them apart and not have any 1128 01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,900 interaction between the Areas. But we saw a glimpse of how much 1129 01:13:58,900 --> 01:14:02,400 the two communities love each other in the Christy cell last 1130 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,200 year. We did a digital art sale 1131 01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,900 Christie's for the benefit of maps and all it was just 1132 01:14:07,900 --> 01:14:09,800 amazing. The, the artist that showed out 1133 01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,700 for that and that kind of got me thinking of like, okay are there 1134 01:14:14,700 --> 01:14:19,600 things that we could be doing to to have the crypto Community 1135 01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:23,000 engage further. And I think this would be an 1136 01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:28,900 important moment for Do to support a company like this in 1137 01:14:28,900 --> 01:14:33,500 part because we have a narrative problem in crypto right now that 1138 01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:37,400 the outside world thinks of all we are is a bunch of like Ponzi 1139 01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,400 scam. ER, you know, profit tears that 1140 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,200 are just interested in the speculative, use case. 1141 01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,100 And so supporting something that really matters, that really 1142 01:14:46,100 --> 01:14:49,600 moves through the ball forward for mankind. 1143 01:14:49,700 --> 01:14:52,800 Solving, you know, arguably the largest problem that mankind 1144 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,000 faces the mental health pandemic, I think could be 1145 01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:58,800 really really compelling and then the joke that I've made 1146 01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,800 with Rick is, you know, when we originally designed the 1147 01:15:02,500 --> 01:15:07,700 regenerative financing vehicle last year for four Maps, it was 1148 01:15:07,700 --> 01:15:12,300 like 40 pages to have this reciprocity pledge in the actual 1149 01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:16,100 company in the vehicle and I was like, you know, this is like a 1150 01:15:16,100 --> 01:15:19,300 few dozen lines of code in a smart contract. 1151 01:15:19,700 --> 01:15:24,800 Look like, you know, in crypto this is like, you know, refi And 1152 01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,100 decide like these things are like native and natural to us. 1153 01:15:28,300 --> 01:15:30,800 We're in like the traditional farming. 1154 01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,400 I'm Destro complex. They're like nah this is crazy. 1155 01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,000 Like you're gonna like give profits back to a different 1156 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,500 organization on a program based. I'm like yeah because if you 1157 01:15:39,500 --> 01:15:42,900 just ask somebody at the end of the day, to give a philanthropic 1158 01:15:42,900 --> 01:15:46,400 donation after they've made, 100x on investment The Wretched, 1159 01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,900 25k check, and tell you to go fuck off, right? 1160 01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,200 And and so you have to program it in. 1161 01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:56,400 It has to be like baked into the Of model and that's true. 1162 01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:58,600 That's trivially available in crypto. 1163 01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,100 So I've been trying to think around you know there's I'm not 1164 01:16:02,100 --> 01:16:04,300 here now seeing anything. I'm just sort of like thinking 1165 01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:10,600 through like okay what could be a model that provides cash flows 1166 01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:13,900 to investors like provides a really compelling Venture 1167 01:16:13,900 --> 01:16:18,700 outcome but has this reciprocity baked in, you know, could we 1168 01:16:18,700 --> 01:16:21,300 draw on the crypto Community to support this? 1169 01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,500 This fundamentally important organization that has done? 1170 01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,800 The most to push, psychedelic therapies forward across the 1171 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:36,000 world and and you know, and then could we kick start regenerative 1172 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:41,100 financing as like a new defy summer, but have refi summer and 1173 01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:44,900 we're doing more, you do more good for the world outside of, 1174 01:16:46,100 --> 01:16:48,600 you know, of just pure pure profits. 1175 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:54,500 Could we kick start real like decentralized science and in 1176 01:16:54,700 --> 01:17:00,300 Something like this and I feel like, you know, not to be too 1177 01:17:00,300 --> 01:17:03,900 hyperbolic, but I feel like crypto needs maps and Maps needs 1178 01:17:03,900 --> 01:17:07,500 crypto, and the two belong together, even though I've tried 1179 01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:10,100 to keep them apart for as long as I've been involved with both. 1180 01:17:10,700 --> 01:17:14,700 So that was a bit long-winded my apologies but but yeah no it's 1181 01:17:14,700 --> 01:17:16,600 super cool. And I mean, certainly the 1182 01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,000 Psychedelic space is one that I think. 1183 01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:22,100 Yeah, I think you're right. Like there there there are a lot 1184 01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:25,000 of synergies with the crypto space and certainly People in 1185 01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:29,900 crypto, I think are more likely to have done psychedelics than 1186 01:17:30,300 --> 01:17:33,100 most other people in most other Industries. 1187 01:17:33,100 --> 01:17:39,400 So, I think it makes sense that the, the maps and in crypto sort 1188 01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:45,100 of come together in some in some form or fashion it seems it 1189 01:17:45,100 --> 01:17:49,100 seems quite natural. And yeah, I do also like agree 1190 01:17:49,100 --> 01:17:53,800 that the mental health pandemic as you call it is. 1191 01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:59,100 Feels like it's it's getting worse and I think covid 1192 01:17:59,100 --> 01:18:01,600 accelerated it. But also, what's going on in the 1193 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:03,400 world right now? I think is certainly not helping 1194 01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:10,800 and Anyway that we have to come back from that is is a good 1195 01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:12,800 friend that net positive for Humanity. 1196 01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,000 Yeah a lot of the things that are happening in the world that 1197 01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:20,500 are terrible for Humanity are functions of of mental health 1198 01:18:20,900 --> 01:18:28,300 like why is Russia in Ukraine? Because Putin, sat in a basement 1199 01:18:28,300 --> 01:18:32,100 for two and a half years. You don't only allowing people 1200 01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,400 to sit on the other side of a 30-foot tapeworm. 1201 01:18:34,500 --> 01:18:38,900 Table from him in his own, you know, in his own thought cycle, 1202 01:18:38,900 --> 01:18:42,200 just doing away until he convinced himself that he was 1203 01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:47,100 going to like reunite the, the former USSR think that's a 1204 01:18:47,108 --> 01:18:50,900 mental health issue and you go right down the list of so many 1205 01:18:50,900 --> 01:18:55,300 other things that are like world leaders have us Alice on these 1206 01:18:55,300 --> 01:19:01,000 like insane Misadventures and they come down to mental health 1207 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:01,900 problems. Right? 1208 01:19:01,900 --> 01:19:04,800 This is a, this is, you know, with the exception, One of 1209 01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,000 death. This is the largest problem that 1210 01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,700 mankind faces, maybe for a different time. 1211 01:19:09,700 --> 01:19:11,600 We could die die. The I think we've really, to do 1212 01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,600 another one, like deep deep into maps and psychedelics for 1213 01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:18,900 epicenter spin-off, podcast about psychedelic. 1214 01:19:18,900 --> 01:19:22,300 But yeah, it's a Bromley I'm looking for feedback right now 1215 01:19:22,300 --> 01:19:25,500 from the community, like, you know, is this something that the 1216 01:19:25,500 --> 01:19:28,100 community wants to get behind like we do need to come through 1217 01:19:28,100 --> 01:19:30,700 from apps. Like somebody's got a gotta 1218 01:19:30,700 --> 01:19:33,200 write this check, like, there's no way we're going to let this 1219 01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:37,700 37 year. Journey of Rick doblin like die 1220 01:19:37,700 --> 01:19:42,800 at this precipice moment, right? Or even have like a you know a 1221 01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,300 farm of EC come in and own it in the end and it's like all this 1222 01:19:46,300 --> 01:19:50,800 was for naught that doesn't seem like the outcome that we've been 1223 01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,100 waiting for. And so I do think I am 1224 01:19:54,100 --> 01:19:59,400 optimistic that that there's a important Synergy to be realized 1225 01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,000 between crypto and Maps. I haven't cracked the nut of 1226 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,400 what that is yet, but would just love the community. 1227 01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:07,000 Unity feedback. Cool. 1228 01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,400 Ryan, thanks so much for coming on. 1229 01:20:09,500 --> 01:20:11,600 It's been a pleasure. Thank you guys with you on all 1230 01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:14,500 these topics as love to have you on again at some point. 1231 01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,400 Maybe not in 250 episodes though. 1232 01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:21,300 You know what the important thing is? 1233 01:20:21,500 --> 01:20:24,900 I know that you guys are going to be around in 250 episodes 1234 01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,700 because you do great work, your is as photo. 1235 01:20:27,700 --> 01:20:31,900 I hope so. We're super grateful for for 1236 01:20:31,900 --> 01:20:35,800 everything, you do. Thanks Ryan, cool, thanks again. 1237 01:20:36,900 --> 01:20:40,400 And I do want to I do want to plug one thing before we go, 1238 01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,300 just because we didn't have any sponsors today so it feels 1239 01:20:43,300 --> 01:20:46,700 fitting. So maybe Other Summit, it is 1240 01:20:46,700 --> 01:20:50,100 happening and it's happening in Paris on July 24th and 25th. 1241 01:20:50,100 --> 01:20:52,200 So never let someone is The Interchange Builders conference. 1242 01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:56,200 It's two days it's going to be epic for anybody who was there 1243 01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:58,600 last year and I know Felix you were there last year so I know 1244 01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:02,600 you can you can vouch for this that never this time it is 1245 01:21:02,900 --> 01:21:05,200 probably one of the best investments in feds events in 1246 01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,300 Europe for interchange Builders. So anything related to Cosmos 1247 01:21:08,500 --> 01:21:15,800 interoperability Cosmos D Phi and cos awasum staking Surah. 1248 01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:17,400 So this year we're doing it again. 1249 01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:20,300 It's going to be two days. It's happening at this place 1250 01:21:20,300 --> 01:21:24,600 called Albert School in central Paris which maintains his is 1251 01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:26,400 larger than our veteran venue last year. 1252 01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:28,800 But you know, tries to keep the Very Cool vibe that we had at 1253 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:31,100 last year's venue and tickets are on sale. 1254 01:21:31,100 --> 01:21:35,400 So the early bird tickets went on sale on Monday April 3rd and 1255 01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:37,700 we still have some available so I think by the time this goes 1256 01:21:37,700 --> 01:21:40,400 out they'll probably be some very few early bird tickets 1257 01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:41,900 left. So if you plan on being at ECC, 1258 01:21:41,900 --> 01:21:45,600 this year, you should definitely get a ticket to another Um, it's 1259 01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:48,500 going to be great and we've already got some like 15 1260 01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:52,000 speakers lined up, and probably will go up to 70 80 speakers. 1261 01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,500 So yeah, that's happening. And would love to see all of you 1262 01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:58,800 there if you can make it. So, thanks again for joining us 1263 01:21:58,808 --> 01:22:01,500 this week and we'll talk to you in the next week's episode. 1264 01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:05,400 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1265 01:22:05,700 --> 01:22:07,400 We release new episodes every week. 1266 01:22:07,900 --> 01:22:10,700 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1267 01:22:10,700 --> 01:22:13,800 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1268 01:22:14,100 --> 01:22:17,000 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1269 01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:19,900 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1270 01:22:19,900 --> 01:22:23,000 epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for a full list of places where you 1271 01:22:23,008 --> 01:22:25,600 can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1272 01:22:25,608 --> 01:22:28,400 for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 1273 01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,800 they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other 1274 01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:35,100 podcast listeners, you can On Twitter and please leave us a 1275 01:22:35,100 --> 01:22:37,900 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 1276 01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:41,000 happy to read them but thanks so much and we look forward to 1277 01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:41,900 being back next week.