1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,800 Hi, welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,000 Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the 3 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:20,900 blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian crucio. 4 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:22,700 And I'm here with my co-host for the get horns. 5 00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:25,000 Today. We're talking with Kevin iwaki. 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,800 He's the founder and get of get coin, and he's now a member of 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:29,800 the get coined. Ow. 8 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:32,100 Before we talk to Kevin about get coin. 9 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:35,200 I'd like to tell you about our sponsors this week because the 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,400 safe is a smart wallet. That enables you to control 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,200 digital assets. 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That is a public good. 27 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,800 So think of it like a community-owned. 28 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,800 Own version of Madam asked, it has all the features of many 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,600 masks, but the difference is that tally is 100% over open 30 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,300 source under the GPL, three license, and it's 100% user own 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,000 with all. The prophets flowing to the 32 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,700 community. Not a corporation. 33 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,800 The launch of Talley is coming in the New Year. 34 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:51,000 Actually, it's already out now, but the team have just released 35 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,600 an early version to the community, which is the tally 36 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,100 Community Edition. Before the Dow launches, what 37 00:01:57,100 --> 00:01:59,800 features do you think we should be in your ideal wallet? 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,400 Noise. You currently about your wallet 39 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,900 that you're using. Well, try tally and join the 40 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:07,700 community on Discord. Their Community calls to feature 41 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:12,100 a new partner each week and have about 500 unique joining, you 42 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:14,000 get all the info you need at tally dot. 43 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,100 Cash. Kevin. 44 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:18,500 Thanks so much for joining us. Once again today. 45 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:21,000 It's we're just checking earlier, and it's been since 46 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,900 like, we lost have joined in 2018. 47 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:25,900 It was like right after get coin, grants launched. 48 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,400 So yeah. Thanks for coming back on. 49 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:32,600 Yeah, it's great to be here. It's been a been a couple years, 50 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,600 which is, as we all know, a lifetime and in the crypto 51 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,500 space, but yeah, giggling grunts is now our Flagship product. 52 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,300 So a lot has changed. Since I was last on the show. 53 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:44,500 Thanks for having me back. Yeah, it's a pleasure. 54 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:49,300 I mean, get coin has just grown so much since the last three 55 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:52,800 years and it's become such a like, a pillar in the theorem 56 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,700 Community. Tell us a bit about, you know, 57 00:02:54,700 --> 00:03:00,100 your personal Journey since we last spoke and sort of, you 58 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:03,700 know, try to summarize, you know, the last three years of 59 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:06,200 your life and, you know, sort of the trajectory of get coin. 60 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:08,600 Totally. Yeah. 61 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:10,500 Yeah, we've been really lucky turns out. 62 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:12,400 There's a lot of people out there who want to get coins. 63 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:14,700 And there's a lot of software developers who wanted to enter 64 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,300 the space. And that's kind of our Niche is 65 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:19,000 connecting the software developers to the funding that 66 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,400 can fund their work in open source, and I'm super proud that 67 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:25,800 our mission has always been to grow and sustain open source. 68 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Software open source provides so much value for the world. 69 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,400 And this is not a business model for it because the code is 70 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,900 available for free. In fact, I think the number was 71 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,400 five hundred four hundred billion dollars per year in 72 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,800 economic value. According to a study in 2014. 73 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:41,100 And since there's no business model, developers are just 74 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:42,500 working nights and weekends for free. 75 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,100 On open source software and that's always been our mission 76 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:47,700 is to correct that asymmetry between value created and value 77 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:50,100 captured last time. I was on the show, which was I 78 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:55,000 think 2018, we were primarily focused on doing bounties, which 79 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,200 is basically if you do X, you will get y coins on get coin. 80 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:02,900 And we've since expanded into get coin grants, which is 81 00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:06,100 basically, I'm already doing X and I would like to raise money 82 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:08,700 for that work in open source software. 83 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,000 And if you go to get coin dot Coast results, you can see that 84 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,800 we've done. 51 million dollars worth of funding for open-source 85 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,700 software with an accelerating trajectory as the market has 86 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:22,100 turned around, and I think, as our Network effects is have 87 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:25,200 deepened. So, yeah, it's just kind of been 88 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,700 really staying anchored to that mission of building, and funding 89 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:31,600 open source, software, and digital public goods. 90 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:37,000 And just being kind of really, really trying to innovate on how 91 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000 we reach that mission has been the trajectory for the last 92 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,900 three years. And so super proud of the Impact 93 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:46,000 that we've had so far, but you know 50 million dollars is 94 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,100 great. But like I said, four hundred 95 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:50,000 billion dollars per year in economic value is created by 96 00:04:50,008 --> 00:04:52,100 open source software. So we're just scratching the 97 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:55,900 surface of what we could do. If our mission was successful in 98 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,300 helping open source software developers get coins. 99 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,700 Quit, can you maybe give us a little bit deeper? 100 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:04,600 Look into the step. So, basically, how many 101 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,500 different projects have received funding through they currently 102 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:11,900 do to. They usually come back every 103 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:17,100 every round or they one-offs. And I mean, so how many people 104 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:20,200 in total have benefited, how many have have given to get 105 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,300 coin? And yeah, sure. 106 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,500 Well, yeah, I direct the audience to get coin dot Coast 107 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:28,500 loss results, which is our open stats page. 108 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:31,600 We like to be as transparent as possible with the stats. 109 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,600 And the total is 65,000. Funders have given to an 110 00:05:36,608 --> 00:05:41,400 audience of 20, 280,000 earners. And, you know, maybe there's a 111 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,100 little bit of people who are creating alt account, says 112 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:47,800 they've stood Anonymous identities and their 1.7 113 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:50,600 million. Complete transactions, over the 114 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,300 course of the last several years. 115 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:58,200 So, um, you know, I'm most proud of projects like you NE Swap and 116 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,300 you're in Aunt using get coined during the last bear Market when 117 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:06,300 funding had really dried up get coin, grants had become a place 118 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:09,500 where people could get get funding during the bear market. 119 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,800 And I'm really proud to have us supporting public goods like, 120 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,900 while it connects and Prismatic labs and Nimbus, the eith 121 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:19,000 clients that are out there are have a special place in my 122 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,800 heart, as a software developer, who wants to see the people who 123 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,300 are working on the foundations of our Network getting paid. 124 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,500 So all in total, there's about 1,000 get coins. 125 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,900 Grants that return every round and take most of the funding 126 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:36,000 every Bitcoin, grants around and there's kind of like a bell 127 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000 curve down to up-and-coming projects and newer projects in 128 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,800 the space that can get discovered on get coin, because 129 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,400 there's such a density of funding on get coin. 130 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,100 It's actually become sort of an interesting place where new 131 00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:51,600 projects can come and Market themselves to the community and 132 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,900 make a name for themselves. Because with get coin, grants 133 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:57,200 your, it's a crowdfunding platform where the median 134 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,400 transaction is one dollar. And so it's a great way for for 135 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,500 you know, for project raises from 3000 of their friends. 136 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:08,800 For them to say, hey put look at all these people who are our 137 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,300 peers in the community that really care about our project. 138 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,200 And then that can be a springboard for larger grants 139 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:18,700 from say the ethereum foundation, or I know that you 140 00:07:18,707 --> 00:07:20,500 wanna swap now has a grants project. 141 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:23,700 So it's a great way for newer projects to get momentum in the 142 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:26,600 space by doing crowdfunding on. Get congrats. 143 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,600 What's the measure of success here? 144 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,300 Like you were talking earlier about the size of like, the open 145 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:34,900 source market? At least value that it creates. 146 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,500 Like, how are you tracking? The success of get coin in the 147 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:44,000 sort of broader open source funding paradigm. 148 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:47,600 Yeah, well, the easiest number to track is just the amount of 149 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,300 money that we've moved to software developers, but the 150 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:52,500 number that's nearest and dearest to my heart is the 151 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:54,900 number of people who can quit their jobs and just work on open 152 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:57,500 source software. If you've worked at JPMorgan 153 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:00,600 Chase and now you're going to work on open source, then that's 154 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,400 the future that we want to create people who can pay their 155 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,500 Mortgage and pay their bills by working on public goods and open 156 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:08,800 source, software and vitalik Booter. 157 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,300 And in one of his reviews of get coin, talked about this idea of 158 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,500 a quadratic freelancer, someone who is making enough. 159 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,700 Money from Bitcoin, grants or other public goods funding 160 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:21,200 mechanisms, that can now quit their job and work for the open 161 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,600 internet and it's just subsidized by quadratic 162 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,700 matching. We haven't talked about 163 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:27,800 quadratic funding, but that's basically the mechanism that 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,600 underpins get coin grants. And so the number the number 165 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,799 that's nearest and dearest to my heart is the number of people 166 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:35,600 who have found new opportunities that we've opened doors for 167 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:38,100 either by quitting their corporate jobs and working on 168 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,500 web 3 or coming straight out of school. 169 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:43,200 If you're a student and working straight away on web 3, and it's 170 00:08:43,208 --> 00:08:46,100 a little bit hard to track that. Is we don't know exactly what 171 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:48,000 people's employment are. We don't have a good data source 172 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,500 for that, but anecdotally, walking around it ECC. 173 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,300 And he's Denver. I get approached by dozens of 174 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:57,300 people who tell me o, get coin, open decks door for me or why 175 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:59,400 door for me. And it always feels great to 176 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,500 have those moments where you've, infected the trajectory of 177 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:03,500 someone's career. And that's, that's the metric 178 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:07,600 that that I optimize for. So let's talk about quadratic 179 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,800 quadratic funding. So where did the idea come from? 180 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,800 And how does it work? Yes, o quadratic funding is 181 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,600 basically an idea from Glen while who's the author of 182 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,200 radical markets and the talaq butyrin who people may know is 183 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,100 the founder of the etherium and Zoe hit Sig. 184 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,500 And so basically, the idea is that it's basically in you run a 185 00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:32,100 matching campaign where you match contributions to a 186 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:35,800 crowdfunding campaign and instead of doing one to one 187 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,500 matching. What you do is you match by the 188 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:42,000 number of contributors to each Grant more so than the amount 189 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,800 funded by each, It. So if the three of us all 190 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:51,200 running a grant on get coin and my grant got $100 from one, 191 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,500 contributor, and y'alls. Grant got $100 from 100. 192 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:56,500 Contributors. Then, your Grant would get, 193 00:09:56,500 --> 00:10:00,800 like, 97% of the matching funds because it R optimizing for the 194 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,500 preferences of the poor, and the many instead of the rich in the 195 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:06,100 few. So it's the, the mathematically 196 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,900 optimal way to fund public goods in a democratic Democratic 197 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,400 Community, because we're optimizing for the preferences 198 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,200 of the Many instead of the rich few. 199 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,000 And so that's why it coin, grants. 200 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,800 When you give only a dollar, the Match, multiple can be really 201 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,700 significant. It gets people over the free 202 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:25,300 rider. Problem of, why would I find 203 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:27,400 this public good that I'm already getting for free. 204 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,900 Well, the reason why you would bother to take out your wallet 205 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:32,500 and give a dollar, is that for the projects that have the 206 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:35,400 broadest base of support the highest number of contributors, 207 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:40,100 a one dollar contribution can be matched with 200 300 500 208 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:42,000 dollars. So the match multiples, get 209 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,300 quite insane. Once the matching pools, get 210 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:46,100 big. And the Project's get a high 211 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:48,300 number of contributors and that's what gets people over the 212 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,400 free rider problem of contributing on get coin grants. 213 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:54,800 So I'm basically don't get scared off by the math. 214 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,400 If you go to, if you read the paper, there's a bunch of Greek 215 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,300 symbols and in math and everything like that, but 216 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,900 basically, it's just a matching campaign where we match the 217 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,000 number of contribute based off the number of contributors 218 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,300 instead of the amount funded and that creates more democracy 219 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:12,600 pushes power to the edges in ecosystem, fun. 220 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,700 Ending. So get coin. 221 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:18,200 Grants is primarily doing quadratic funding on a main 222 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:21,700 ethereum matching pool right now the last matching pool and 223 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:26,400 grants round 12 in December 20, 21 was a million dollars, but 224 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,600 now we've started to add these little adjacent fools for Eunice 225 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,900 pop and for polygon and other ecosystems that also are trying 226 00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:39,100 to build their own ecosystems public goods and quadratic 227 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:41,700 funding is just kind of the formula that gets people to 228 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:46,000 actually Get off the couch in a metaphorical way and contribute 229 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,100 to the grandson, get coin. And I just run a really quickly 230 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:50,700 say. I know that are in McMillan was 231 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:53,500 on your podcast recently and he's running CLR fund, which is 232 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:56,500 another really promising, quadratic funding project out 233 00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:58,900 there. And I'm a friend of our ends. 234 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:02,300 And and I think that there's multiple implementations of qf, 235 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:04,800 get coin, just happens to be the biggest in the earliest. 236 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:09,300 So, how do you become super resistant? 237 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,000 I mean, what, what stops people from making multiple accounts 238 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,400 and contributing a dollar each from 20 accounts? 239 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:17,500 Yeah, that's a really great question. 240 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:19,900 And that's kind of like the Achilles heel of quadratic 241 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:22,800 funding is, this thing called civil resistance, which 242 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,800 basically is sock puppet resistance in that example, I 243 00:12:25,808 --> 00:12:29,800 gave earlier, which was, I have a grant where I've raised a 244 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,500 hundred dollars from one contributor and you to have 245 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:35,300 raised $100 from 100 contributors and you get way 246 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:37,700 more of the matching pool. What's to stop me? 247 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,200 As a person who wants to get more of the matching pool from 248 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,700 just making up, 100 identities, and then Distributing the 249 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:45,800 funding through that and that's called the Civil resistance 250 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:46,700 problem. And it's actually one of the 251 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:49,800 hardest unsolved problems in the space. 252 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,100 Right now, imagine an ecosystem in which we can move from these 253 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,200 one token. One vote systems, which vitalik 254 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,400 has called plutocratic to one human. 255 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,400 One vote that's digital democracy. 256 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,600 If we can move to a more one, human one vote type systems and 257 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,200 so it's an unsolved problem. Our Approach at get coin is too. 258 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,000 Only deploy as much Capital as we can, be sure that we can keep 259 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,500 the fraud tax low, the fraud tax being defined as the amount of 260 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:16,500 money that gets misallocated due to civil resistance. 261 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:19,600 So there's an impedance matching between the amount of capital, 262 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,900 that is being deployed. And the cost of forgery of all 263 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:26,400 of the accounts on get coin. And our approach is to aggregate 264 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,000 civil resistance, indicators from proof of humanity, from 265 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,100 Bright ID, from identi, from a bunch of different projects that 266 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:37,200 are doing really amazing work in creating these Web of trusts in 267 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,400 order to create civil resistance and we aggregate all of those 268 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,500 signals and we are price assign a personhood score to each 269 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:50,200 person on the get coin Network. And basically the idea there is 270 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,100 that the person had score is just the cost of forgery of each 271 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,900 identity. So if I integrate my get coin 272 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:58,700 account with Twitter, maybe that provides 50 cents worth of cost 273 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,100 of forgery because Twitter accounts are easy to forge, but 274 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:05,500 proof of humanity. I'm making up these numbers but 275 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:08,300 basically like For Humanity, Chris $200 worth of civil 276 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:09,300 resistance. Right? 277 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,200 So you can give $200 worth of the matching pool to someone 278 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,600 who's contributed based off of a proof of humanity, linked 279 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,900 identity. Anyway, so it's this whole 280 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,700 Rabbit Hole of of how you solve civil resistance and we're just 281 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:23,800 standing on the shoulders of giants by integrating with other 282 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,600 civil resistance mechanisms in the space and it's an unsolved 283 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,300 problem. I would not represent that we 284 00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:31,600 have solved it but get coin. Grants is actually one of the 285 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,400 largest data sets in finding and sniffing out Sybil rings and 286 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:37,700 channeling. That information back to proof 287 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:41,800 of humanity and bright ID is what Bitcoin Dow and the fraud 288 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,300 Defense work stream has been working on over the last several 289 00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:47,000 rounds. So it is an unsolved problem and 290 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,500 I would not represent that we have totally solved but we were 291 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,600 trying to be responsible and allocating the capital such that 292 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,000 the fraud taxes low and the big end game here is that get 293 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,500 congrats on its face. If you look at it looks like a 294 00:14:59,508 --> 00:15:02,100 crowd funding experiment and funding public goods, but if you 295 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,000 look at if you turn it on its side, it's actually a giant red 296 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,700 team blue team. Is in sniffing out Sybil attacks 297 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:12,200 and finding new ways of proving these civil resistance. 298 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,400 Ecosystems and the end result. Hopefully the positive 299 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,200 externality of all of this is that we can create civil 300 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,800 resistance signals for the rest of the ecosystem and move. 301 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,100 The rest of the ecosystem. From one token, one vote to one 302 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:26,600 human. One vote is Hook. 303 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,300 The hopeful eventual outcome of all of this. 304 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,200 So tldr we haven't solved it, but we're trying to take it 305 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,700 seriously and I'm very excited about a world that is more civil 306 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:39,600 resistant. So in a way, get kind of 307 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:47,200 distributes money to different projects by this mechanism, but 308 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,100 where does the money come from in the first place? 309 00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,400 Sure. Yeah, we distribute money aren't 310 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,800 my my marketing lead has been coaching these like say that 311 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,600 people are getting coins on get coin. 312 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,800 So that's like the inverse of Distributing muddy on on get 313 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,300 coin. The yeah, so people are getting 314 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:09,700 coins from this matching fund. That that basically has been set 315 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,700 up at first by the etherium foundation and what the etherium 316 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,300 foundation wanted when they started engaging with get coin, 317 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:19,000 grants was well, a vitalik wanted to something that. 318 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,800 Typed in the real world, this paper of quadratic funding that 319 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,100 he wrote with Glenn, just like doesn't even fly. 320 00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:26,200 Like does this thing even take off her to just explode on the 321 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,400 launch pad? Luckily. 322 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,400 The answer is that it does fly. And the basically what the 323 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,600 etherium foundation wanted was a more organic decentralized way 324 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,500 of allocating funding in their community. 325 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:41,100 So the if grants team is really amazing and they do such great 326 00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:43,600 work in supporting the major players of the ecosystem. 327 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:46,000 But if you're a more up-and-coming person who is not 328 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,600 well connected in the space, quadratic funding is a better 329 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,800 way to get on the radar. Because we can do thousands of 330 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,400 Grants on get coin, via the matching pool. 331 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:58,600 Where as a centralized grants team can only process on the 332 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,100 order of tens of applications per month. 333 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,200 So it augments traditional grant funding mechanisms for the EF. 334 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,300 And that's that's why through rounds 1 through 6. 335 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:10,000 We run these grounds every quarter rounds 1 through 6, get 336 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,200 coin, grants was funded by the ethereum foundation and then a 337 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,000 really interesting thing happened in the summer of 2020 338 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,700 defies summer, Andre from urine. Finance which I don't know if 339 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,900 y'all remember defies summer, but Andre was like the ultimate 340 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,800 Chad during defy summer because he had just launched urine and 341 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,400 fair launched it and gave it all away. 342 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,400 And he announced that he was giving 150k to, the get coin, 343 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,100 grants matching pool and funding, get coin, grants around 344 00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:39,000 7:00. And I think over the next 24 345 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,600 hours. I raised maybe like 1.5 million 346 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,800 dollars just on Twitter. DM s-- because everyone wanted 347 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,300 to do it. Andre was doing it was defy 348 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,900 summer and he was the ultimate Alpha nerd and so we had this 349 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:50,700 like it. Students are this like this 350 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,000 phase change where we went from being funded, by the ethereum 351 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,600 foundation to being funded by the defy projects that were 352 00:17:56,608 --> 00:17:59,300 taking off in the etherium space and now had these large 353 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,400 treasuries and some of them are even alumni of get coin grants. 354 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,200 Like you're in finance, raised running the bear Market through 355 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,400 Bitcoin, grants. We see this like people 356 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,200 graduating into becoming alumni of git clone and then paying it 357 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,500 forward to the back of the space, back to the space. 358 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:15,000 And like, you know, arguably they're doing it for karma, but 359 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,700 also, maybe they get some sort of brand Equity out of. 360 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,300 Hey, we're funding public goods in the ethereal. 361 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:25,800 Um, space come work at urine or Yuna swap or chain link has been 362 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,600 an amazing funder for us. Badger Finance has done some 363 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,600 really great stuff for us. And so we call this the funders 364 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,300 league, it's a group of projects that is now funding, the 365 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:38,700 ethereum ecosystem, that our alumni of get clean grants and 366 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,500 and and so that's rounds. So we've done 12 rounds of your 367 00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:44,800 clan grants. One through six, with the 368 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,500 etherium foundation 7 through 10, where the defy projects and 369 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:52,600 then around Evan and FTS were taking off and so me and my 370 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,100 buddy, Austin Griffith launched this pfp project called moonshot 371 00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:01,200 Bots, which are like these little pixelated robots that we 372 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,300 put them on a bonding curve and we just had a hundred percent of 373 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,800 the money to public goods. We raised three million dollars 374 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,700 for the the batching pool, which is just like I just can't 375 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,400 believe how successful that campaign was funding public 376 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,600 goods with then FTS. And the crazy thing is that the 377 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,300 moonshot bats have been live on the get coin side on the avatar. 378 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,400 Builder for like two years and no one cared until they were at 379 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,000 of T's. So there's something like 380 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:27,400 there's like, you know, like those clickbait articles were 381 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,000 there like do x with one weird trick? 382 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400 It was like, fun, public goods with one, weird trick, and if T, 383 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,800 is, were a new way of funding public goods. 384 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,300 So, so that's another way that we've been funding the matching 385 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,000 pool, and then we just announced this thing called get coin 386 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,000 aquaducts, which is basically, like, you know, an ancient Rome 387 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,900 Aqueduct for a way of carrying liquidity from one location to 388 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:49,300 another. I get coin aqueduct. 389 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:53,200 Is just a way of carrying liquidity from your protocol or 390 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,700 ecosystem into the get coin, grants matching pool. 391 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,500 And typically the way that is set up is that we will run a 392 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,500 quadratic funding rounds for your ecosystem. 393 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,200 If you set up an aqueduct to the matching pool forget coin. 394 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,800 So a typical split is like 60, 40 60 percent of those funds 395 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,500 will be used to build your ecosystem and 40% will be used 396 00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:17,700 for the ethereum main round. And and so an aqueduct is is a 397 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:20,500 way of funding Bitcoin. Grants, but also, if you're a 398 00:20:20,508 --> 00:20:23,300 defrag project that's looking for more Bottoms Up organic 399 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,500 growth than quadratic funding is like the magic way to do that. 400 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:28,200 So aquaducts our way of doing it. 401 00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:30,300 Anyway, tldr answer to your question. 402 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,200 At first. It was the ethereum foundation, 403 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,900 then it was all the defy projects then it was in FTS. 404 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:35,900 Now. It's aquaducts. 405 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:38,600 We're basically trying to innovate in find new ways of 406 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,500 funding public goods at get coin. 407 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:41,900 That's the other side of the coin. 408 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,900 And right now the matching pool has on the order of like 10 or 409 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:50,100 12 million dollars in it. So even if the It turns really 410 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:52,700 bearish. We've got at least four or five 411 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:55,900 more rounds at three million dollars per round funded on get 412 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:57,300 coin grants. So we're staying ahead of the 413 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:01,600 problem is as much as we can. And yeah, I'd love to talk about 414 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,800 get coined a little bit later, but they're actually doing most 415 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,100 of the heavy lifting on on raising money for the matching 416 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,500 pool now and they have governance rights over the 417 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,100 funds. So they're doing a really 418 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:14,600 amazing job of staying ahead of keeping the matching pool 419 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,100 funded. That's really impressive. 420 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:21,600 Yeah, thanks for. Thanks for explaining how the 421 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,900 quadratic funding mechanism Works in detail. 422 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:31,400 I'm so earlier were talking about the the metrics, the 423 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,500 metrics by which you measure the success of get coin. 424 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,800 And one of the things that I think a lot about when you 425 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,100 considering the success of like these new Innovative use cases 426 00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:46,200 that crypto has enabled. Like how much of that has leaked 427 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,100 into the In crypto world and you were also talking about just the 428 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:53,600 amount of value that's created in open source software. 429 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:57,700 How much how much of that are you seeing like, how is the is 430 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,300 the quadratic funding model or the get coin model starting to 431 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:05,200 leak into other areas of Open Source, software that aren't 432 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:10,200 necessarily crypto focused. And is there an aspect of get 433 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,700 coins success and that has to be specific to crypto in the 434 00:22:13,708 --> 00:22:16,600 projects that the that is funding in the fact that there's 435 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:20,100 sort of intrinsic economic value inside those projects in a form 436 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,000 of tokens or whatever. I guess. 437 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,300 My question is, does get coin and quadratic funding such as 438 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:30,000 you've implemented it scale outside of crypto. 439 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,500 Yeah, really great question. I think that the end game here 440 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,100 is quite large. If we are able to prototype new 441 00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:40,100 ways of funding public goods in the etherium ecosystem. 442 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,500 Then we could back Port, those two other other digital public 443 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,100 goods. And then we could back Port, 444 00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:46,600 those two more, physical public goods. 445 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,800 And what if we've discovered more, efficient more fair 446 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,700 credibly neutral ways of allocating capital and we could 447 00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:54,300 transport those to the world. I think the honest answer your 448 00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:59,100 question Sebastian is that I we haven't proven it out and I 449 00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:01,800 don't think that we really know. No yet, but there are some early 450 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,400 promising signs during coronavirus when downtown, but 451 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,900 I'm from Colorado and downtown Boulder. 452 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,500 Colorado, was just shuttered after the coronavirus pandemic, 453 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,500 when everything went into lockdown and we got together 454 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:16,900 with Katie Johnson and Zach Herring who are two of my 455 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,100 compatriots from consensus. My consensus days. 456 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:23,700 We've since spun out of consensus, but Katie and and 457 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,500 zakhar our friends that I shared an office with and I was like, 458 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:28,900 let's do a quadratic funding matching round for downtown 459 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:32,100 Boulder and we did. And we Raised 50k for downtown 460 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:36,200 Boulder businesses that were affected by the pandemic. 461 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,200 Now, having a living down livable downtown is a public 462 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,600 good just like open source software as a public good. 463 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,300 And I'm really proud to say that we implemented. 464 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,400 It was called downtown stimulus and it was a quadratic funding 465 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,900 matching campaign that just like accepted credit cards, no 466 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:51,800 crypto. Not even in the back of, no, not 467 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,400 even crypto in the back and we raised 50 50 thousand dollars 468 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,600 for for businesses in downtown Boulder, and I'm really proud to 469 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,300 say that we had Words of contributions from people who 470 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,000 weren't even on email lists. We're kind of like not even 471 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,800 comfortable with with digital experiences, like just this like 472 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,200 an e-commerce flow is is, you know, it's a in the same user 473 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,500 experience, give one dollar and get tens or hundreds of dollars 474 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,600 in matching. And so downtown stimulus was a 475 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,700 great success and I'm really proud that we prototype to that. 476 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:26,300 We've not done another downtown stimulus because Bitcoin needed 477 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:30,900 to focus on the ethereum space, but I'm proud that we That we 478 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,000 put that model out there. So that's experiment. 479 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,300 Number one, which shows. I think promise that quadratic 480 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:37,900 funding could go more mainstream and then experiment. 481 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:42,400 Number two, is that in May of twenty Twenty-One get coin got 482 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,000 together with open Collective, which is a prominent web to open 483 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,200 source funding tool and launched fund OSS dot-org, which is a 484 00:24:50,208 --> 00:24:54,600 quadratic funding tool for mainstream open source software 485 00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:59,200 things like npm or in the python ecosystem and we were able to 486 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,800 raise Hundred k for the web to open source ecosystem. 487 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,300 So I'm really proud to say that the psychology of quadratic 488 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,400 funding Works, whether you put it on crypto rails or Fiat 489 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,600 rails, and I do think that we've prototyped a fundamentally new 490 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,300 way of funding public goods, you know, then to be clear. 491 00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:21,300 It's Glenn and metallics idea. I'm just like the guy who's 492 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,200 bringing it to one of the one of the people who's bringing it to 493 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,200 the ethereum ecosystem. And I do think that there's a 494 00:25:27,208 --> 00:25:30,300 lot of Promise in in piloting, new ways of creating 495 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,300 Regenerative Finance in the web three ecosystem, in the dock, 496 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:39,000 porting them to the real world and I am my big hope is that get 497 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,300 coin is just kind of like the tip of the sphere, what we do in 498 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,100 the etherium ecosystem. We're actually launching this, 499 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:47,900 this grants protocol, which is like an infinitely for cable 500 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,500 version of get coin. Grants and my big dream is that 501 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:54,900 people take it and they go fund digital journalism ecosystems, 502 00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:57,700 or they go fund, climate change, or they go fund their 503 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:00,500 downtown's. And I think that like, Oppie 504 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:02,900 what we're doing in the ethereum ecosystem and let's let a 505 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,600 thousand experiments Blossom and funding public goods elsewhere. 506 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,900 In the ecosystem is, is kind of what I would hope that get coins 507 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:13,000 Legacy is when I look back on it in 10 or 20 years, and there's 508 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,600 early signs that it that it's going to work really well, but I 509 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,500 don't think that we've totally proven it out. 510 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:21,600 And and to be clear, the Civil resistance problem is real. 511 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,000 We need to solve that. We need to solve the problem of 512 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,000 how we fund these matching pools at scale. 513 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,600 And, and those are the largest unsolved problems that I've got 514 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,300 my sights set on. Right now is scaling this thing 515 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:33,800 and bringing it to New verticals. 516 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000 So we don't the the tldr answer is Sebastian is that we don't 517 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,400 know, but there's promising signs. 518 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,300 What's the biggest challenge in terms of attracting funding? 519 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:47,600 So like, you know, they're especially, I think in the 520 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,600 crypto space where there are like VC funds and companies and 521 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,900 doubts that have gotten maybe in that order. 522 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:59,200 You know, that I've gotten quite quite quite wealthy from from 523 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,400 crypto and you know, arguably lots of the portfolio companies 524 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,500 of ECS and like even the companies that they fund 525 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:08,300 themselves also have gotten quite wealthy are using open 526 00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:12,300 source technology and It's a challenge in getting more 527 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:15,600 funding coming from these organizations. 528 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:22,700 And how do we sort of like? Encourage wealthy actors in the 529 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:24,700 space to contribute. More to open source 530 00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:27,900 infrastructure, funding. It's a really great question. 531 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,100 And I think the answer is that it depends on the audience. 532 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,000 I believe that. I mean giggling. 533 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,800 Grants were funded like for 6 rounds ahead of right now and 534 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,700 it's really been. I'm so thankful that the 535 00:27:37,708 --> 00:27:39,900 community has rallied around our mission and rallied around their 536 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:42,800 project. And I'm just so heartened to see 537 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,700 that as the community gets more rich, as the ethereum ecosystem 538 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:51,500 advances, that their funding get coin grants and I do think that, 539 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:56,300 you know, it really that, you know, a naive approach to the 540 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,100 Crypto space might be that low. It's all D Jen's and it's all 541 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:02,200 selfishness. And and and I just don't think 542 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,800 that that's true. I see us as the tip of the 543 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,800 sphere for regenerative crypto economics and the type of people 544 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,500 that realize that like, hey, what's the value of a Lambo? 545 00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:14,100 If the sky is on fire? We're really all on this Earth 546 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,300 together and we're all in these ecosystems together and it's 547 00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:20,500 incumbent upon us to make sure that our common space is, and 548 00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:23,900 our communities are livable and are supporting new people coming 549 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,600 into them and Innovation. And so, you know, the people Who 550 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,900 who really get that message? I think that we found a lot of 551 00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:34,100 luck in making sure that they are funding public goods, but, 552 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:36,800 you know, part part of what we're trying to do is show 553 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,900 people that it does work. That you can have positive some 554 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:43,100 games with crypto economics, even in an adversarial 555 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:45,400 environment. And I think showing people that 556 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,500 it's possible is is the beginning of educating them that 557 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:53,800 there are mechanisms for making the world better and for making 558 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,400 these ecosystems better and You know the big the big challenge 559 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,800 is that if there's a giant hack actually I'll just adjust the 560 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,300 openssl bug that happens in 2013. 561 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:08,000 There's this bug called heartbeat heart bleed which 562 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,400 basically openssl was dumping the openssl runs every SSL 563 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,200 connection on on the internet, the little lock in your browser. 564 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,400 That shows you your website is secure as openssl and the 565 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,500 openssl foundation runs on less than a million dollars per year 566 00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:25,600 in donations and just contract work. 567 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,500 And there was a bug and Openssl that dumped all of the contents 568 00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:32,300 of your web server to the memory, to the open internet, 569 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,200 which for those of you who aren't even security-minded. 570 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,200 Like, that's a bad thing. You don't want your secure 571 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,800 server, dumping the contents of its memory to the open internet 572 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,600 and it's because the openssl foundation didn't have like 573 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,800 funding to work on this thing. That was a pillar of the entire 574 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,100 internet. And so when a Black Swan event 575 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:50,000 like that happens, people understand the need to fund 576 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,500 infrastructure and to fund our public goods. 577 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,400 And the whole point is like getting people to a point. 578 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:59,100 Where they'll fund public goods even without those Black Swan 579 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:03,000 events, and I think that it's creating that social awareness 580 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,600 of those things is, is like Point number one point number 581 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,800 two is education, which like thank you for having me on the 582 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,600 podcast so that we could talk about this thing. 583 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,800 And then three is like, we want to make public goods. 584 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,400 Cool. I think that I'm so lucky that 585 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,800 vitalik Booter, and who's the alpha nerd of the etherium 586 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,100 ecosystem cares? So much about public goods and 587 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:23,300 that creates a social sort of consensus that funding public 588 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:28,200 goods is cool and it UPS your sort of Like social status to 589 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,100 fund public goods. And I think we want to create 590 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:34,100 that kind of like that social hierarchy where people were 591 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:37,000 giving back to the world. It is is is something that's 592 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,900 seen as, as a something that's socially acceptable and even 593 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,300 socially. Promotable, and, you know, I 594 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:49,900 think that in the etherium ecosystem where the money is, 595 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,400 there's everyone's like 10x richer than they were a year and 596 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,300 a half ago. It's been much easier than it is 597 00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,200 in like Communities, where you're really struggling, you 598 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,000 will need a flan therapist or like the government to fund, a 599 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,800 quadratic funding matching pool and those types of communities. 600 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,200 But at least in the ethereum ecosystem, we're starting to see 601 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,900 some really promising signs that people want to fund these, these 602 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,800 ecosystems. So a lot of traction, but I 603 00:31:12,808 --> 00:31:16,700 think it's an unsolved problem. How has this worked in the OSS 604 00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:21,800 and downtown Boulder cases? I mean, who Am I who gave money 605 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,600 for the matching pool? In downtown stimulus. 606 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:32,100 I went to I went to a couple, wealthy Venture capitalists / 607 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:35,200 funders that have either invested in get coin invested in 608 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:40,200 my past projects or the just that I've known for a decade and 609 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,000 they were funding the matching pool Brad Feld. 610 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:44,400 It has been an inspiration to me. 611 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,500 He's a prominent local venture capitalist and he funded a lot 612 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:51,100 of the matching pool and then the good coin, grants matching 613 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:53,800 pool funded some of it. And in the fund. 614 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:58,000 S case po Mancini has been building web to open-source 615 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,800 ecosystems and has a lot of connections to Tech Giants, that 616 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,600 that give back on open Collective. 617 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,100 And so she funded part of the matching pool. 618 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:10,300 And then there was also members of the get coin, grants funders 619 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:12,000 League, that funded the matching pool. 620 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,400 So it was just kind of leveraging, my reputation and 621 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,900 the get coins Traction in order to create a pilot. 622 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,300 And then you know, the idea is that once you have a pilot and 623 00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:23,900 you've proven that the model works, then you can then go to 624 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,200 Local governments and people who are more risk-averse and and 625 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,400 sell it to them. So yeah, that's how we solved it 626 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,200 in the past. But I think in the future more 627 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,600 systematic model is probably needed if we're going to scale 628 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,100 these things. I want to, I want to come back 629 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,700 to the public good funding aspect for a moment and sort of 630 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,800 the parallels that I see between like open source public goods 631 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,300 and so, like, physical public goods. 632 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,800 So like, you know, I think the Heartbleed example is a great 633 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,800 example of underfunded software that is really under painting 634 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,800 like the entire internet infrastructure. 635 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,400 And like, you know, if you look at say a country like the United 636 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,600 States, where it's generally, accepted that the infrastructure 637 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,900 there is falling apart. Like, you know, lots of A lots 638 00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:10,000 of investment was made in the 1950s and 60s and 70s and like, 639 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 not so much in the last, you know, four or five decades that 640 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,100 infrastructures fall, starting to fall apart. 641 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,100 I had this one of your blog post. 642 00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:22,700 You had this like really cool kind of illustration of like all 643 00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,200 the blocks that build up to like, you know, that web three 644 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,500 wallet that you're using or whatever. 645 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:29,200 And like underneath it. It's all just like, live P2P, 646 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,600 and TCP IP. But so is there a risk that at 647 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,700 some point like are are, you know, core internet 648 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:38,300 infrastructure which by It was funded like very much, bye-bye, 649 00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:41,800 governments like you but US Government through the second 650 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,300 half of the 20th century. Is there a risk that that 651 00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:46,300 infrastructure starts falling apart because of lack of 652 00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:49,600 funding? Or, you know, is it stable 653 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,400 enough or do you like what what's the risks here that come 654 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,700 into play with regards to like this kind of fundamental core 655 00:33:55,700 --> 00:34:00,300 infrastructure, whether it's, you know, openssl or other other 656 00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:03,600 software. Yeah, I think that that 657 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,800 illustration that you're talking about had a bunch of like little 658 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,600 blocks that everything relies on it. 659 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,500 The top of it is like your bags, you know, like all of your 660 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,900 crypto assets that you rely on or just funded by this, this, 661 00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:18,100 these, this like hodgepodge of Open Source projects and it's 662 00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:21,100 like, it's scary to have that much economic value relying on 663 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:24,400 something that is is underfunded. 664 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,800 And and I think that the answer to your question is that we're, 665 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,400 you know, people are talking about the metaverse a lot. 666 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,600 The in the ecosystem, you know since duck launched meta and 667 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,400 there's a big question about will you know is is the 668 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,100 infrastructure of the metaverse going to be own free and open 669 00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:44,500 source? And is it going to be a public 670 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:45,800 good? Or is it all going to be like 671 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,500 Facebook's infrastructure? And, you know, and like the 672 00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,199 endgame there is like are we all going to be stuck being tracked 673 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,400 by Zuck and like have ads everywhere in the meta verse 674 00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:59,300 versus is it going to be more of like a public good, where you 675 00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:02,400 own your digital experience in a world increasingly? 676 00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:06,500 Created by digital software, who runs the code that intermediates 677 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:09,500 your experience with the world. And I think that if we want to 678 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:16,000 move to a more free open society, that encourages human 679 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,200 fruit, humid, thriving, and human flourishing that we want 680 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,600 to have a world in which the software that intermediates are 681 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,100 experiences in the metaverse is free and open and that you can 682 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:29,900 Fork it if you disagree with that. 683 00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:32,300 And that's the vision of the metaverse that I want to see. 684 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,800 Um, you know, and I'm not even much of a gamer. 685 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,500 I just like, I just think that increasingly Humanities 686 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,400 experiences are intermediated by software and I want that to be 687 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,300 free and open source software. So, you know, that's one angle 688 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:45,900 on it. I think that that's one reason 689 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:47,900 why it's important to fund our digital infrastructure. 690 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,500 I think that we're seeing a world in which Warfare is 691 00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,800 increasingly conducted online via cyber attacks. 692 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,500 And so, you know, there's like a National Defense, public good. 693 00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:02,400 Sort of reason why we want to shore up our infrastructure and 694 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,700 And I think that that's another argument for it. 695 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,800 And then the third argument is just like sheer scale when we 696 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,400 when TCP IP was first design, which is a very elegant and anti 697 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:16,800 fragile protocol, it really it says grown several orders of 698 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,700 magnitude since it was originally designed and making 699 00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:21,800 sure that our digital infrastructure is anti fragile 700 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,500 instead of fragile. I think, is in the Public's best 701 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:27,600 interest. And so, you know, there was a 702 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,500 sense of civic pride in my grandparents and and great 703 00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:32,400 parents generation in which they're building digital. 704 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,700 Structure after WWII, and I really hope to see a reprisal of 705 00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:41,900 that around global citizenship and the public good for all of 706 00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:45,200 humanity and human thriving and, you know, I'm getting into like 707 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,600 a little bit more of my like, hippy dippy side right here. 708 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,100 But, but I do think that there's a strong rationalist case for 709 00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:53,400 funding public goods, and digital infrastructure. 710 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,700 But I in the until we make it cool until we make being an 711 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:59,800 internet Citizen and and funding public goods. 712 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,200 Cool. We're never going to solve these 713 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,500 Global coordination problems. Is like climate change and 714 00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:07,100 digital infrastructure and cyber attacks and all this kind of 715 00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,300 stuff. And so the world that I want to 716 00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:11,600 live in is one where we've solved those coordination 717 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,900 failures, but I think that we have to create a social 718 00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:18,200 consensus and internet, inner subjective consensus, that not 719 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,400 only that we can do it and that we should do it. 720 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,500 And and that's that's a lot of what my work is, is Raising 721 00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:29,000 awareness of these problems. Even when we when we think that 722 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,100 we should do, it public goods funding is notoriously difficult 723 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:36,300 because it's actually several problems rolled into one, right? 724 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:39,200 So basically you have to decide what should be achieved. 725 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,500 How should one try to achieve it, who should achieve it. 726 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:47,600 And so, all of this kind of has to be kind of determined, there 727 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,300 has to be some consensus on this and then basically, then you 728 00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:53,200 need to the fans and you need to distribute the funds and so on. 729 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000 But actually, and I mean to combat This problem I think 730 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,600 sometime last year vitalik published a blog post about 731 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,900 retroactive funding, right? So basically so that would 732 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:12,000 basically allocate funding after the end has already been 733 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:18,000 achieved and what that's make make funding these in the first 734 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,900 place, a little bit of a venture game kind of It kind of like to 735 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:28,200 interest like the the the crowd that Actually has pretty good 736 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,500 experience at funding very risk groups. 737 00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:35,200 Yes startups and other Ventures. Yeah. 738 00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:39,600 So what do you make of this? Well, so the idea behind 739 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,700 retroactive public goods funding is to create an exit for teams 740 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:44,800 that work on public goods. So, you know, if you built 741 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,500 libbed, P2P, and that's now underpinning the entire digital 742 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:49,800 infrastructure or maybe openssl. We should stick with that 743 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,900 example. Because we talked about it 744 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:55,400 earlier, then basically give those people an exit and give 745 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,600 them like, I don't know, a ten million dollar or a hundred 746 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,400 million dollar outcome for building that infrastructure. 747 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,100 And then, what that does is that it creates a market for Venture 748 00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:07,600 capitalists to come in and Seed, fund public goods projects, 749 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,700 because Expecting that that outcome, they're making a 750 00:39:11,707 --> 00:39:14,300 rational economic game that they could create that outcome and 751 00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:17,100 you create the sea change where now all of this apparatus, 752 00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:19,900 that's only focused on projects that capture value. 753 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:24,000 Can now be all of that energy and all of that human Innovation 754 00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:26,500 that that has been focused on capturing value in the past, can 755 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:28,400 just be focused on creating value without having to worry 756 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:29,900 about capturing it. And that's the end game of 757 00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:31,300 retroactive public goods funding. 758 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,900 I am very bullish on retroactive, public goods 759 00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:37,000 funding. And as I do more things with get 760 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,400 coin, I'm actually realize in the quadratic funding is just 761 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,000 one tool in the tool belt. There's plenty of other really 762 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,700 great ways to fund the comments and to fund public goods. 763 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:48,400 And I Envision this core primitive of an impact owl, 764 00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:51,500 which creates positive externalities for the world. 765 00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,500 And if we just stack impact out on impact. 766 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:56,300 Ow, then we're going to create more and more public goods 767 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:59,700 funding and some of them will have their mechanism will be 768 00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:02,500 retroactive public goods funding and other of them. 769 00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:05,200 It'll be quadratic funding and then there will be other 770 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,600 mechanisms like proof of humanity, I think as an impact, 771 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,100 ow, We just stack those things on top of each other until we 772 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,600 create this regenerative, crypto economic infrastructure for the 773 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,000 world. And it's going to be emergent to 774 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,700 your point. Like, we need to create quite 775 00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,800 the magic of quadratic funding. Is that it doesn't matter what 776 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,800 me, Kevin iwaki. The original founder of get 777 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,800 coins, values. Are we're building a mechanism 778 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,800 that is a channel for greater combinations of intelligence and 779 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,700 strength to come together and is the inner subjective consensus 780 00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,300 of the etherium community that is represented on get coin. 781 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:35,600 So it's not my opinion. That's that's represented. 782 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,600 We're just building a more perfect Channel 4. 783 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,700 For valued signal value signals, to be to be created. 784 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,700 And so I think it's like when you stack all of those impact 785 00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:47,600 owls on top of each other, you get the inner subjective 786 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000 consensus of humanity, of which coordination problems and public 787 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,800 goods. Problems need to be solved. 788 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,800 And and I think that that's the real, the real end game. 789 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,300 And and as you're right, you're right, it's multiple problems in 790 00:40:58,300 --> 00:40:59,600 one. It's what the people actually 791 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,300 care about and how much do they care about it. 792 00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:06,500 And in what directions and it's creating a way where the values 793 00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:10,500 of of What do we care about? And what do we want to support 794 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:14,400 is aggregated and supported is the infrastructure that I think 795 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,000 is being built in this space. And that's what makes me really 796 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,500 bullish for regenerative crypto economics. 797 00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,600 Let's talk about impact dollars and regenerative crypto 798 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,300 economic. So you've actually said impact, 799 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,300 I was several times now. Kevin, so now, explain it, 800 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:34,200 please. Yeah, so, um, basically an 801 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,100 impact Au is any doubt that has a positive externality for 802 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:41,900 Humanity and I think that, that can be on many vectors like, get 803 00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:45,200 coins positive impact, is that it creates public goods funding 804 00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:49,100 proof of Humanity's positive impact is that it creates civil 805 00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:53,100 resistance in the ecosystem climate, how, which is a dowel 806 00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:55,500 that's working on making sure that carbon credits are 807 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,200 well-funded. It's positive externality is 808 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,700 more pressure on carbon more. Incentive to create carbon 809 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,200 capture mechanisms, which hopefully means more carbon 810 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,600 capture and solves climate change. 811 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:12,500 So, impact Au is just the load is just a definition of 812 00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:14,900 something that creates a positive externality for the 813 00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:18,200 world without being prescriptive about what type of positive 814 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,600 externality and you know think of it like your see. 20 years 815 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,200 E20 is this token standard that you can build a utility token 816 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,200 on. You can build a governance 817 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,600 token. You could build Securities on 818 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,800 top of your C, 20. And it's just that's the lowest 819 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,500 common denominator of how you create a token impact. 820 00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:37,900 Owl is just the lowest common denominator of any doubt that 821 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:40,600 creates a positive externality for the world. 822 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,100 And the reason why it's important to Define that is that 823 00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:48,300 if you've got a stack of impact, owls of which there are already 824 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:52,500 dozens, then what you're basically over time as you start 825 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:54,200 like, think of them as like money Legos. 826 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,100 And if you just start to stack these dowels on top of each 827 00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:00,900 other, what the aggregation of that is a regenerative crypto. 828 00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:04,600 Infrastructure for Humanity. Remember, this is all being 829 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,000 built on ethereum and adjacent web, 3 protocols, that are 830 00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:12,400 transparent. Immutable Global and 831 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,200 programmable substrate for human coordination and we could export 832 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,400 so much human thriving for the world if these things hit web 833 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,300 scale, so it's about innovating new mechanisms and funding 834 00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:26,300 sources that create positive externalities for Humanity. 835 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,900 A plurality of them, not just quadratic funding and then 836 00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:31,100 stacking them all on top of each other and create. 837 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,500 In a regenerative crypto economic infrastructure for the 838 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:39,000 world and that is my hope that the legacy of the crypto 839 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,100 economic. Movement is is that we have 840 00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:46,700 created a system that is more efficient way of funding public 841 00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:49,800 goods and creating human thriving than the old nation, 842 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,900 state industrial infrastructure that existed before. 843 00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:54,600 And maybe, you know, it's not a zero-sum. 844 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,400 Maybe they augment each other and, and work together in order 845 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,500 to create more human thriving. But I see that elegant mechanism 846 00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,800 design on top of these coordination substrates that are 847 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,100 web three. Is this like it's just a ton of 848 00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:10,400 like high upside for Humanity if we continue to stack impact. 849 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,700 On top of each other and, and create that infrastructure for 850 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:15,600 the world. And I'm just really bullish to 851 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,200 see all of this starting to come together. 852 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,900 Kevin. Let's make this more concrete. 853 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:23,300 So, basically there's also this book that you co-authored with a 854 00:44:23,308 --> 00:44:24,900 couple of people, the green pill book. 855 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,500 So basically, it talks about regenerative crypto comics and 856 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,900 it's actually, it's a really, I don't want to say, it's a read 857 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:34,600 because there's a lot of pictures in it. 858 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,200 It's very, it's very fast reader. 859 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,400 I mean, it's very information, very idea dense, but basically, 860 00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:44,500 see the recurring theme of that book is combating coordination 861 00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:48,800 failures, right? So check and basically the these 862 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,600 impact douse, those are means of doing so. 863 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,200 So can we give us examples of where in the in the world we 864 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,900 live in, we see coordination failures and how they basically 865 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:06,700 fail us as Humanity. Yeah, real quick plug for the 866 00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:11,600 book created a book. That's really, like, as you 867 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,100 said, a quick read and basically Aggregates much smarter people 868 00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:17,500 than me, the metallics of the world, the biology's of the 869 00:45:17,508 --> 00:45:19,200 world. The Glenn Wiles of the world 870 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,500 takes, there's I, their ideas and puts them in a very 871 00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:24,900 comprehensible format for people who are entering the space and 872 00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:26,500 want to solve regenerative crypto economics. 873 00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:29,500 And I'm standing on the shoulders of giants by exporting 874 00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:32,300 the the ideas of Michael's argaman, Glenn while and all 875 00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:34,800 these people to the world. And, you know, as you said the 876 00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:38,400 Is an aggregation of other people's ideas and I would not 877 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,900 be there without them. But to actually answer your 878 00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:45,600 question coordination failures are any situation in which 879 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,700 there's a dictator list dystopia a system in which every single 880 00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:54,300 person hates the system, but for lack of a better mechanism for 881 00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:58,600 coordination, it indoors. So another an example of that it 882 00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:03,100 that's more tangible than say, open source is let's like an 883 00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:06,500 over overfishing example. Oh, so basically like if the 884 00:46:06,508 --> 00:46:10,100 three of us are all sitting around a lake and we can all 885 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:13,200 make a thousand dollars actually know it this is a podcast about 886 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,900 crypto so we can all make a thousand die per month by 887 00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:22,800 fishing out of that pond, but one of us can make a thousand 888 00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:25,600 and five hundred die by overfishing. 889 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,600 That pond in the result is that the other people only make 900 890 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,400 die per month. Then basically, what you get is, 891 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,000 you get a coordination failure where ever you individuals 892 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,000 individual Is to overfish the pond. 893 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,400 And the rational economic behavior is to is to over fish 894 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,600 the pond until the pond is completely Barren. 895 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,800 And none of us can make any money out of that pond anymore. 896 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,900 So you get this like death spiral of all. 897 00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:52,700 We didn't coordinate to agree. Not to over-consume this 898 00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,500 resource and therefore, no, none of us have access to the 899 00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:57,800 resource. So it's a dictator list distopia 900 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,700 in which each of us, hates that system. 901 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,400 But for lack of a better coordination mechanism, it 902 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,000 indoors that's like a game theoretic. 903 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,300 Um, and so, you know, that's that's what I see when I look at 904 00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:11,800 climate change. We all have a rational economic 905 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,600 incentive to fly across the world and do business. 906 00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:18,200 And we externalize harm to the world. 907 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,200 We all have a rational economic incentive to free ride on open 908 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,600 source software, despite the burden that that places on our 909 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,900 digital infrastructure and on open source software maintainers 910 00:47:30,100 --> 00:47:32,200 and for lack of a better coordination mechanism and 911 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,700 indoors. Well, now we've got a global 912 00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:38,100 Transparent immutable, programmable substrate for human 913 00:47:38,100 --> 00:47:43,600 coordination etherium Cosmos, you know, all of these different 914 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,200 blockchains. So now, we've got a guy like 915 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,600 this, this amazing substrate for for coordination, where we can 916 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,600 build these coordination games, and solve coordination failures 917 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,300 by creating these coordination games. 918 00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:58,800 And so, the endgame of the book is just to tell people, like 919 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,500 teach the game theory of coordination, and to tell them 920 00:48:01,500 --> 00:48:03,300 that better infrastructure is possible. 921 00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:06,900 If we just choose it. And and so, you know, this is 922 00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:11,000 basically the opportunity that I see is just educating thousands 923 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,100 and tens of thousands of young people who are maybe lacking 924 00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:18,600 hope or maybe lacking education about how we can solve these 925 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,300 coordination failures in it. And I see this like, I hope that 926 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:24,400 30 years from. Now, this is the legacy of the 927 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,900 web three ecosystem is that we bootstrapped this decentralized 928 00:48:28,900 --> 00:48:32,300 Finance thing, but maybe that was just the boot loader for a 929 00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:34,600 more regenerative infrastructure for Humanity. 930 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:36,300 Term. And you know, I know you asked 931 00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:39,100 me for tangible example, so I'll go go back from like the 932 00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:41,400 beautiful language and talk about tangible examples, but, 933 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,400 you know, get coin is building public goods funding mechanisms 934 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,400 for the world, which can be used for funding downtown's, that are 935 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,300 affected by covid, or funding, digital infrastructure, or 936 00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:57,600 funding journalism. I think that bright ID, and, and 937 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,600 proof of humanity, and all these different identity mechanisms 938 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,800 exporting civil resistance for the world, would create a lot of 939 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,900 A lot of positive externality around identity. 940 00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:10,400 Moving us from one token, one vote systems to one human, one 941 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,200 vote systems. And by the way, there's already 942 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,000 people in Argentina hundreds of them. 943 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,000 They just live off of proof of humanity and Ubi and that 944 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,500 creates better circumstances for them locally. 945 00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:22,900 I think climb a dowel in the fact that they have are using 946 00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:25,000 crypto economics to create more demand. 947 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,400 For carbon credits is an amazing example of using aetherium to 948 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,700 solve climate change and and you know, by the way, when proof of 949 00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:35,900 stake happens and we're all of a sudden using Nine, point nine, 950 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:38,900 nine percent less energy. There's gonna be a huge sea 951 00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:43,000 change in the perception of these systems to create positive 952 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,400 externalities for Humanity. And I hope that climate change 953 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,800 is one of the first things that builders in this space. 954 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,800 Start to try to solve from there. 955 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,600 So, those are some tangible examples, but there's likely 956 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,100 dozens others, that, that, that we could go through. 957 00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:58,400 If you want more tangible examples, and I hope to be 958 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,200 invited back to epicenter in four years again, and we can 959 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,200 talk about hundreds of tangible examples. 960 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,400 At that point. Yeah, that'd be great. 961 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,000 I mean certainly hopefully it will help you on before that. 962 00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:14,100 But I'd like to talk about. So earlier you mentioned that 963 00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:16,600 you were a member of the of the get coin. 964 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,600 Dow U is you know Express that you didn't want to be called the 965 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,800 CEO of the cake going down and that's fine. 966 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,100 I think we could just call you like some guy in the get going 967 00:50:25,100 --> 00:50:26,000 down. Yeah. 968 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,300 Citizen internet citizen, right? Yeah. 969 00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:30,200 What. So, what's the like, you know, 970 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,600 you know, it seems natural for get going to transform into a 971 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,200 doubt. But tell us a bit about that 972 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,700 process and like, what is the, what is the vision here for the 973 00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,100 Dow? Totally. 974 00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:44,600 Um, well I made a big mistake when I first started coin, which 975 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,900 is that we made it centralized to start and, you know, the 976 00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:50,800 tools didn't really exist back then to make it into a dour make 977 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,200 it. Do you watch for the disgust of 978 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,100 the people on Twitter who were responding to the, my question 979 00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:58,000 of what we should talk about? Yeah. 980 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,300 I mean like, hand like hand to the air, if you're watching the 981 00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,500 video, see my hand in the air like I plead guilty. 982 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,200 We built it centralized like I'm guilty. 983 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:07,200 I'm I'm sorry. I wish I hadn't done that. 984 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,000 Also, and, and that's a big problem, and I think coming to 985 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,100 grips to that has been a lot of the story for me over. 986 00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:17,300 The last two years is that you can't have a centralized funding 987 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:20,500 infrastructure for a decentralized ecosystem or for a 988 00:51:20,508 --> 00:51:24,000 decentralized world. And, you know, I think that the 989 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,800 ecosystem deserves credible neutrality, the deserve to know 990 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,700 that I'm not the ones with my hands on the lever of governance 991 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:33,600 of get coin and that the community should be in charge of 992 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,200 the governance of get coin. And so the launch of get coin, 993 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,300 Dow was basically the imbuing of governance rights for. 994 00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:43,100 How these quadratic funding matching pools are allocated. 995 00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:46,200 What are the rules of what's acceptable in them into a 996 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,700 governance token called GTC which stands for get coin or I 997 00:51:49,707 --> 00:51:51,500 like to say it stands for grow the community. 998 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:56,700 And, and basically, the idea is, we are returning an apple into 999 00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:59,000 an orange right now. We are turning a centralized 1000 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:04,400 company into a dow or at least returning the grants portion of 1001 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:07,000 our assets into in to get coins Owl. 1002 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,700 And the whole idea is basically that No company should own this 1003 00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:14,700 infrastructure is should be a credibly neutral doll. 1004 00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:16,300 That's governed by the community that it serves. 1005 00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:18,300 And that was the idea behind get coin dowel. 1006 00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:22,400 We launched it on May 25th 2021, which is a day that will change 1007 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,300 the trajectory of get coin forever. 1008 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,400 We draw we dropped 18 GTC to 18,000 different members of the 1009 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,900 community, and basically allowed them to delegate to different 1010 00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:38,000 members of the get coin Community to what we called 1011 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,800 stewards. So basically there's a big 1012 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,200 problem. Of governance tokens where 1013 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,200 everyone wants to govern things in theory, but in principle, no, 1014 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,400 one ever votes on anything. So we made everyone delegate to 1015 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,700 people who would actually be involved and would help govern 1016 00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:55,200 get coin that when they first got there, there tokens, which I 1017 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,900 think was an Innovative way of making sure there was 100% 1018 00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:00,900 consent of the governed, you know, other dials have like 1019 00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:03,700 three to five percent voter turnout, get coins out regularly 1020 00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:07,300 gets 80, or 90 percent voter turnout, because we've got 1021 00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:10,000 these, like, delegated people, stewards that are aggregating, 1022 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,200 the End of the governed in participating in governance 1023 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,800 votes. And so that was like our primary 1024 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,700 Innovation on governance for for Bitcoin. 1025 00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:20,200 Dow was making. It was having that delegation 1026 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,200 layer that was 100% represented at the start in DNS. 1027 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,300 Has since copied our dowel delegation mechanism. 1028 00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:29,000 I'm very proud to have pushed the space forward and very like 1029 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,800 one small way there. But yeah, anyway, so we've 1030 00:53:32,900 --> 00:53:36,600 decentralized the governance of get coin Dow and the surface 1031 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,500 area of that governance will increase as we launch a credibly 1032 00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:41,800 neutral protocol. For quadratic funding and move 1033 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,600 all over the funding mechanisms from the centralized platform 1034 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,900 over to the protocol over. Hopefully the next 18 months. 1035 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,400 I'm like kicking the engineers under the table to tell be able 1036 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,000 to tell me that it's going to be sooner than that. 1037 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,400 But um, but yeah, so decentralized governance, then 1038 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,100 decentralized the computation in the economics of the network and 1039 00:54:00,100 --> 00:54:02,300 then I can have the feather in my cap and respond to those 1040 00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:04,900 people on Twitter that are accusing me of being 1041 00:54:04,900 --> 00:54:07,100 centralized, which is totally true right now. 1042 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,300 So, yeah, tldr can't have a centralized. 1043 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,500 Terry doing public goods funding for a decentralized ecosystem. 1044 00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:15,800 And that's why we're moving a lot of these assets into the 1045 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,800 Dow. That's super cool. 1046 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:20,700 Now. I'm afraid to check the Twitter 1047 00:54:20,700 --> 00:54:22,900 thread. I'm probably getting hated on 1048 00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:25,900 for being centralized know. Most of the most of the most 1049 00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:30,300 responses were really, really positive, and we've covered a 1050 00:54:30,308 --> 00:54:33,500 lot of it here. So this this idea of like the, 1051 00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:35,900 you know, the problem with with governance, as you mentioned, 1052 00:54:35,900 --> 00:54:38,100 like I think you accurately put it that there, everybody wants 1053 00:54:38,100 --> 00:54:40,000 to govern but nobody actually ends up, governing. 1054 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,600 Do you think that the solution ultimately is? 1055 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,400 Delegation, because that seemed like, to me, it's sort of It's 1056 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,200 sort of like analogous to the current system of governance 1057 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,600 that we have like in like, you know, just our regular politics, 1058 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,900 which ends up, creating all these negative externalities 1059 00:54:59,900 --> 00:55:02,700 like career politicians and like, you know, corruption and 1060 00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:05,100 stuff like that. And like recently in the 1061 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,000 recently in the cosmos Community. 1062 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,000 Like there was this kind of uproar about like some 1063 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,000 governance votes that you may have been influenced by like 1064 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,000 some committee members Etc. And I think we see this thing 1065 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,300 once On the crypto space, there are other solutions to this. 1066 00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:21,100 Like how do we get people more engaged? 1067 00:55:21,100 --> 00:55:24,100 Like I'd be like a simple thing could just be like you get a you 1068 00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:25,600 get a notification on your phone. 1069 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,900 There's something that's a vote on you just like vote on it 1070 00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:31,100 there on the spot like what are other solutions to like this 1071 00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:33,700 delegation? Right. 1072 00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:35,400 Well, I think that's a really great question. 1073 00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:37,700 And I think that we should not shy away from these hard 1074 00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:39,400 problems. The problem with the 1075 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,300 notification on the phone. Is that okay? 1076 00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:43,200 Well, now you're notified that you have to vote, but you have 1077 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,500 to actually expand the mental computational Cycles to 1078 00:55:46,508 --> 00:55:50,600 understand the problem into vote, which like, you know, 1079 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,300 you're sitting there laying like watching Netflix and you get a 1080 00:55:53,308 --> 00:55:55,900 notification that have to vote on something like, uh, like 1081 00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:59,100 another thing for my to-do list, so, I don't know, like I think 1082 00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:01,900 it's an unsolved problem and I'm supportive of seeing people 1083 00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:03,800 innovate on. A problem. 1084 00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:09,700 The important thing for me was that the the communities consent 1085 00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:12,400 of the consent of the governed from like political theory is 1086 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,600 the only legitimate basis for for governance as opposed to 1087 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:21,000 like, the divine right of kings which is what you know in like 1088 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,900 old like old times where the legitimacy of the government 1089 00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:28,100 came from. And and I do think that you 1090 00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:31,800 know, these web three networks that like get coin is 100% 1091 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,600 giggling. Grants is for the Most we're 1092 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,900 trending towards 100% consent of the governed because it was the 1093 00:56:36,908 --> 00:56:40,000 community that allocated their governance vote to community 1094 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,700 members. And and I think that that's 1095 00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:44,700 super important to have those initial starting conditions. 1096 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,100 Yeah. I mean, I think that quadratic 1097 00:56:47,100 --> 00:56:51,600 voting, which is basically more of a one human one boat type 1098 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,700 system, which prevents capture by Rich. 1099 00:56:53,700 --> 00:56:58,300 Elites is another area where people are innovating in terms 1100 00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:01,100 of governance, and I would love to see more experiments and 1101 00:57:01,107 --> 00:57:03,100 quadratic voting dials. I think we'll see those in the 1102 00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:05,800 Next several years. And then the other thing is that 1103 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,300 which is a totally different category of governance, which is 1104 00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:11,000 that every time you do a contribution on get going grants 1105 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,800 during a matching pool. You're actually don't like the 1106 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,100 secret. The secret is going to be out 1107 00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:18,100 after this podcast comes out but like you're actually governing 1108 00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:20,300 where the matching pool goes. Every time you do a contribution 1109 00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:23,100 on get coin grads. It just doesn't feel like voting 1110 00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,700 every time you give a one dollar contribution in $500 more of the 1111 00:57:26,707 --> 00:57:30,300 matching pool goes to a project because of it like we tricked 1112 00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:33,000 you your governing, how the matching pool is distributed. 1113 00:57:33,100 --> 00:57:37,000 They're so these systems where there's robust signal already 1114 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,800 being generated that you can take that signal and channel it 1115 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,500 into a governance mechanism. Is hopefully an aggregation of 1116 00:57:43,500 --> 00:57:46,700 the preferences of the community that is being governed. 1117 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,100 And I think that those are really elegant ways of creating 1118 00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,200 governance, experiment that like didn't exist in a ski morphic 1119 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,100 old world type way. So I guess tldr. 1120 00:57:56,100 --> 00:58:00,500 I hear your criticisms, but I think that delegations better 1121 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:03,800 than what we had in web to, I think quadratic Voting is a way 1122 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,400 to improve on that, and I also think that robust signal 1123 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,500 generation in like the get coin. Grants example is another 1124 00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:13,800 meaningful experiment and I hope to see a hundred experiments 1125 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,200 Blossom, that, that improve the ability for the consent of the 1126 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:18,900 governed to be expressed, in a digital way. 1127 00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:20,600 And that's the challenge of Our Generation. 1128 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:25,300 I think is upgrading democracy to be high bandwidth for the 1129 00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:29,500 Next Generation. I think that that's, that's like 1130 00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:33,700 really one of the hugest levers that to make the Better for Gen 1131 00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:36,100 Z and gen Alpha. Is they inherit the world that 1132 00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:38,400 we can do? Thank you. 1133 00:58:38,408 --> 00:58:40,300 That was they were super enlightening. 1134 00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:43,700 I have one more question that kind of ties in with the last 1135 00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:47,400 couple of topics before we unfortunately have to rap and 1136 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,200 that's the future of work. So basically, if you look at the 1137 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:56,700 way that get coin grants and the good coin dowel kind of, do it 1138 00:58:56,700 --> 00:59:02,400 out work to different people. So how does this kind of tie in 1139 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,300 with the notion of the internet of jobs that you have publicised 1140 00:59:06,300 --> 00:59:08,500 elsewhere? And how How does it 1141 00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:12,500 differentiate itself from from the concept of a gig economy? 1142 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,700 I think those answers are really unknown so far, but I can 1143 00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:22,200 provide the way that I think about them, which will hopefully 1144 00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:25,700 start to create shape for what the internet of jobs looks like 1145 00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:27,500 in the readers are in the listeners Minds. 1146 00:59:27,500 --> 00:59:31,500 So, basically, in the internet of money, we have now created 1147 00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:34,100 the ability for computers to send value across the computer 1148 00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:36,900 network, and I think that's really exciting because it 1149 00:59:36,900 --> 00:59:39,600 really means that we can reinvent how value is 1150 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,400 transferred in all segments of society to not need 1151 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,700 intermediaries and like, By the way, if you want to preview of 1152 00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:48,600 how this is going to alert gonna look in 30 years, like just look 1153 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,200 at the internet of information when we took the computers and 1154 00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,500 we gave them the ability to send information across a computer 1155 00:59:54,500 --> 00:59:57,700 network and that reinvented entertainment, media politics, 1156 00:59:58,500 --> 01:00:00,600 all these things in society, that rely on information were 1157 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,900 Rewritten by the internet. And we have like a 30-year view 1158 01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:05,500 on what that looks like. And now we have the ability to 1159 01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:08,300 reinvent value transfer and governance and scarcity in 1160 01:00:08,300 --> 01:00:10,400 society because computers can now send that across the 1161 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,200 computer network, and it follows from first principles that we're 1162 01:00:13,207 --> 01:00:15,100 going to rewrite. Right how the banking system 1163 01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:19,500 works, which is defy, how art auctions work, which is n ftes. 1164 01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:24,200 But no one everyone sleeping on. What is the future of work with 1165 01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,700 within and and I think that we're all kind of like the 1166 01:00:28,700 --> 01:00:32,400 internet of jobs is basically the design space that I think 1167 01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:38,200 happens when the 99% of humanity that their financial lives is 1168 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,600 not their bank accounts and their Investments, but it's how 1169 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,100 they earn a living. And what happens when that 1170 01:00:43,100 --> 01:00:47,200 collides with Achtung technology and web, three era systems 1171 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,600 around data storage and distributed computation and 1172 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:52,700 dowels and in digital reputation. 1173 01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:56,700 I think is an important thing here that I think digital 1174 01:00:56,700 --> 01:01:00,600 reputation is foundational because when I want to make, 1175 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,400 like, you can't have like, a trust list interaction with like 1176 01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:06,000 an Uber driver. Like, when I want to have, when 1177 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,500 I want to hire someone to take me somewhere, then I need an 1178 01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:11,200 assurance that they're not a creep and they're going to get 1179 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,200 me there safely. And And and I think that there's 1180 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,600 like reputation is a big part of how we do value transfer in, in 1181 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,600 our lives in am in so many different places. 1182 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:28,500 And so I'm curious to see what markets for doing knowledge work 1183 01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:31,000 together. Look like because the, the Uber 1184 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,500 Uber example is like a very rudimentary example, but 1185 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,700 because, because I only really care if it's like, they're gonna 1186 01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:40,100 get me there safely and and quickly. 1187 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,500 But on get coin. When I hire a software engineer, 1188 01:01:42,700 --> 01:01:45,100 I want to know, like do Because same language is me. 1189 01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:47,000 Are they in the same time zone? Do they speak the same 1190 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,700 programming? Language is, do they have like a 1191 01:01:49,700 --> 01:01:53,600 bunch of like communication or like emotional problems. 1192 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,100 Are they reliable? Do they produce a good code? 1193 01:01:56,100 --> 01:01:58,200 Are they gonna ghost me? Like there's this many more 1194 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,800 vectors and I think that reputation matters a lot, and 1195 01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:05,000 the way I see this as different than the gig economy is like, 1196 01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,500 the gig economy is what jobs look like, if you just like bolt 1197 01:02:08,500 --> 01:02:12,200 and internet of jobs on Fiat rails, but now that we have this 1198 01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,900 like open source. Mission list blockchain 1199 01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:18,100 technology to program. The way we do value transfer 1200 01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:19,800 with each other. There's going to be non 1201 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,400 skeuomorphic ways of doing value transfer with each other, that 1202 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,200 like couldn't have existed in the old world. 1203 01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:27,900 Skeuomorphism just means. Like, basically it's like native 1204 01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:32,300 to the new environment as opposed to the new world and and 1205 01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:35,900 in like I think a great example of that is coordinate, which is 1206 01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:39,400 basically a tool where everyone in a dowel votes on whether or 1207 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,400 not everyone else is doing a good job, and then you drop 1208 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,000 tokens on the entire set of workers. 1209 01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:45,700 In a dow. That's an example of a non 1210 01:02:45,700 --> 01:02:48,600 skeuomorphic. Use case for the internet of 1211 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,600 jobs is is like creating an intersubjective consensus of 1212 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,900 people who are working together of what they think of each other 1213 01:02:55,900 --> 01:02:58,400 and then allocating tokens based off of that. 1214 01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:01,600 I think paying people in governance rights is another 1215 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,300 really great example of a non ski morphic internet of jobs 1216 01:03:04,300 --> 01:03:06,100 thing that didn't exist in the gig economy. 1217 01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:10,000 If I pay you in dollars then like see you might go away after 1218 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:11,500 that. But if I pay you in governance 1219 01:03:11,500 --> 01:03:14,600 rights for a project that I'm involved, In then you have 1220 01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,800 aligned incentives with me and in many, many different forms. 1221 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,700 And so the design space of Internet of jobs is just 1222 01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:25,100 basically what happens when money, the internet of money 1223 01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:30,500 collides with a society that it earns their living as opposed, 1224 01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:33,300 to mix it from Investments, makes it off of Labor instead of 1225 01:03:33,300 --> 01:03:35,800 capital. And I think that the huge upside 1226 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:40,000 for the blockchain space, by the way, is that 95% of humanity 99% 1227 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,600 of humanity? Their financial lives is their 1228 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,800 jobs, not their Investments. What blockchains to go 1229 01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,900 mainstream. Then you need to invest in 1230 01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:50,400 dowels in the internet of jobs because that's like people 1231 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,400 don't. People are going to work on the 1232 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:57,100 financial are going to use the apps that have the financial use 1233 01:03:57,100 --> 01:03:59,800 cases that they care about that, they solve for their job to be 1234 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,400 done. And and so I think that's what 1235 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,100 the internet of jobs is. And I predict that an upcoming 1236 01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:08,300 cycle will be around dowels and internet of jobs and future of 1237 01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:10,100 work. And I think it's only a matter 1238 01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:12,600 of time you can make the argument from first principles, 1239 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:15,900 the A net of value is Reinventing everything in 1240 01:04:15,900 --> 01:04:18,400 society that has to do with value transfer, and jobs has to 1241 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,400 do with value transfer. So, just follows from first 1242 01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:22,900 principles to me, that will see a cycle that is all about the 1243 01:04:22,908 --> 01:04:25,000 internet of jobs in the next several years. 1244 01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,100 I really get the difference. I think between like the gig 1245 01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:32,500 economy and the internet of jobs and like the difference is that 1246 01:04:32,500 --> 01:04:34,500 you have in lined incentives. I think that's one of the main 1247 01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:37,300 differences in that and the reputational aspect. 1248 01:04:37,300 --> 01:04:41,400 I think plays a huge role to, you know, reputation is 1249 01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,500 something that's been notoriously hard to figure out 1250 01:04:43,500 --> 01:04:47,400 on, you know, digit in the digital world, especially I 1251 01:04:47,408 --> 01:04:50,100 think in the crypto world. And I think that a lot of people 1252 01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:52,800 looking at reputation, at least from my vantage point, as it, 1253 01:04:52,808 --> 01:04:55,300 like an objective measure of like some data points that you 1254 01:04:55,300 --> 01:04:59,200 can get from like, No, get commits, or like, you know, how 1255 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,100 long you've staked and something or like these sort of very 1256 01:05:02,100 --> 01:05:04,700 objective measures but reputation is about so much more 1257 01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:05,400 than that. It's about. 1258 01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,800 Like there's all the subjective aspect as well. 1259 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,500 You were talking about talking the same language. 1260 01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:12,500 Well, you know that that's relative to you, but it might 1261 01:05:12,500 --> 01:05:14,900 not be relative to like, you know, someone living in France 1262 01:05:14,900 --> 01:05:18,700 for instance or in Germany. How do we, how do we, how do we 1263 01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:21,600 come to terms with those sort of like, you know, of course you 1264 01:05:21,607 --> 01:05:24,500 need to have the refugee the the objective things that we can 1265 01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,500 objectively look at and measure you. 1266 01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,700 Say, hey, like this person has like, you know, so many commits 1267 01:05:29,700 --> 01:05:31,100 or whatever. And then the, the more 1268 01:05:31,100 --> 01:05:34,100 subjective aspects. Is that something that can be 1269 01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:37,100 solved in the crypto space or is it like a coordination problem? 1270 01:05:37,100 --> 01:05:42,500 That's goes beyond the scope of decentralized reputation, man, 1271 01:05:42,500 --> 01:05:44,600 you know, I'm going to tell you that all coordination problems 1272 01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,500 are solvable. That's like, you know, that's my 1273 01:05:47,500 --> 01:05:51,800 whole stick is that we can solve these with coordination know. 1274 01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,800 So I mean, I'll take that your questions in reverse order. 1275 01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,200 We like so I think we should move from trying to find the 1276 01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:58,200 complete. Irrationally objective measure 1277 01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,300 of like reputation which like appeals to me, by the way 1278 01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:03,400 because I'm a software engineer and I love things that are like 1279 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:04,700 zeros or ones and they're tangible. 1280 01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:09,500 And like, I know what I'm dealing with objectivity is a 1281 01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:11,000 false idol, though. We want to create an 1282 01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,100 intersubjective consensus of what multiple people think, 1283 01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:18,100 from, multiple, Vantage points. And that is, I think, like, once 1284 01:06:18,100 --> 01:06:21,200 we write widen the aperture of design to intersubjective 1285 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:25,000 consensus, to just like, totally from totally objective, then I 1286 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,300 think that that is really Really what the Holy Grail is. 1287 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:31,600 Like, the your reputation is the sum of what people think of you 1288 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:32,900 around you. That's intersubjective 1289 01:06:32,900 --> 01:06:34,900 consensus. And by the way, the inner 1290 01:06:34,900 --> 01:06:38,200 subjective seek consensus, I'm trying to create is that 1291 01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,400 coordination failures are solvable. 1292 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,700 I want to move people from like, oh, we just have to live with 1293 01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:44,700 this like decaying infrastructure to not like no, 1294 01:06:44,700 --> 01:06:47,200 we could solve it. Like that's the inner subjective 1295 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,500 consensus. I'm trying to create and then 1296 01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:51,400 the last point I want to make before I kick it back to you as 1297 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,900 like, who owns the infrastructure is a really big 1298 01:06:53,900 --> 01:06:56,500 problem here, in a gig economy up. 1299 01:06:56,700 --> 01:07:01,400 Work and Linkedin own all of our reputation data and and 1300 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,700 everything. And who owns the infrastructure 1301 01:07:03,700 --> 01:07:05,700 and web 3 is super important. I want to be able to take my 1302 01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:09,600 identity from site to site to site, and I also don't want up 1303 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:14,900 were taking 10% of my of my fucking paycheck every month, 1304 01:07:14,900 --> 01:07:17,500 like fuck that. And in the fact that LinkedIn 1305 01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,400 their whole business model is taking your reputation data and 1306 01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,700 selling it to recruiters Reid Hoffman makes Thirty billion 1307 01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:26,400 dollars per year off of your fucking day. 1308 01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,400 Data, it's bullshit and wet. That's the one of the big 1309 01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:31,900 differences between the internet of jobs in the big economies 1310 01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:34,900 that we're going to all own our reputation data and take it from 1311 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,600 from place to place to place. But anyway, yeah, to actually 1312 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,100 answer the question. You asked me intersubjective 1313 01:07:40,100 --> 01:07:42,600 consensus over objective measures, I think is where we're 1314 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:44,800 going. Hmm. 1315 01:07:45,100 --> 01:07:47,400 And what one thing, they also contain the mine here in 1316 01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,500 researching this and so, like, reading your writings on the 1317 01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:54,000 internet, a job aspect is, you know, what? 1318 01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,800 Maybe some of the negative aspects Moving in this 1319 01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:03,600 direction, as opposed to the sort of traditional employment 1320 01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:09,300 model that affords, people stability, sort of long-term 1321 01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,900 benefits as well such as Retirement or life insurance. 1322 01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:16,300 And, you know, it's of immediate things like like healthcare. 1323 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,000 Is this something that can be adapted to the internet of jobs 1324 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,100 model that are we going to start seeing Dow's offering like 1325 01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:28,899 retirement savings plans, and And Health Care like health care 1326 01:08:28,899 --> 01:08:34,000 packages for its members. Yeah, that's an extremely 1327 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,600 important question. And I think that it's one of the 1328 01:08:37,608 --> 01:08:42,100 things that really keeps me up at night is how much of our 1329 01:08:42,100 --> 01:08:45,700 Legacy like the Industrial Age infrastructure, how much social 1330 01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:48,600 safety net stuff is globbed on to jobs because there's not 1331 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,200 another better coordination mechanism for it. 1332 01:08:51,899 --> 01:08:56,800 I have a family and I want to I'm, you know, interested in 1333 01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,800 end-of-life planning and making sure that my kids have a good 1334 01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,700 education and planning for Retirement, and creating life, 1335 01:09:02,700 --> 01:09:04,399 insurance, and health insurance, and all those things. 1336 01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:06,200 And those things are all. Just grabbed onto jobs in the 1337 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,300 old world. I'm really excited by what 1338 01:09:08,300 --> 01:09:11,100 obelus is doing in basically creating a bridge between the 1339 01:09:11,100 --> 01:09:14,300 internet of jobs. And these social safety things. 1340 01:09:14,300 --> 01:09:18,200 We're basically, what they do is they create a corporation that 1341 01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,500 you work for that. You get your retirement, your 1342 01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:23,300 life insurance, and all that kind of stuff. 1343 01:09:23,300 --> 01:09:25,399 And they just take a percentage of the earnings that you get 1344 01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:27,899 from the Dow and pay for those things that way. 1345 01:09:27,899 --> 01:09:30,399 So that's like a skeuomorphic way of adapting. 1346 01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,899 Those things to Real world. And so, I think that the 1347 01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:37,000 internet of jobs, absolutely is going to need to have core 1348 01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,200 Primitives for how insurance is done. 1349 01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:42,700 How you plan for retirement, how you saved for education and 1350 01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:45,500 hopefully Reinventing education by the way, so that it's not 1351 01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:49,500 just like, you know, 45 thousand dollars per year to get an 1352 01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:51,700 education at a college. I think that, you know, the 1353 01:09:51,899 --> 01:09:54,100 there's a ton of debt that's Club Dogs, the old system and I 1354 01:09:54,108 --> 01:09:57,400 think the unwinding that for the next generation is really 1355 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,000 important but like the more macro many parts of the world 1356 01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,900 where We have this. So basically, I mean this is 1357 01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:06,400 this is a very u.s. Centric point of view, right? 1358 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,200 So basically, I'm jamming. I went to, I went to, I got a 1359 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,000 perfectly good, egg education here. 1360 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,800 I went to University and II did not pay anything, actually. 1361 01:10:16,100 --> 01:10:18,500 Basically, if you go to university and your parents 1362 01:10:18,500 --> 01:10:24,200 don't have enough money to, to fund your, to fund your living 1363 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,300 costs. You just get a loan from the 1364 01:10:26,308 --> 01:10:29,600 government, you have to pay back half at zero interest and it's 1365 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,400 capped at I think. Thousand Euros. 1366 01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:37,900 So 16 as though basically, I mean, I mean this is this is its 1367 01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:40,700 in parts of the word this exists, right? 1368 01:10:40,700 --> 01:10:45,800 So basically it shows that it's not a huge Hopi envisioned. 1369 01:10:46,100 --> 01:10:50,500 It can be done and in many parts of the world it is totally. 1370 01:10:50,500 --> 01:10:54,600 Yeah and I'll just note that I am an imperfect vessel for a lot 1371 01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,700 of these conversations. But what we did do is we just 1372 01:10:57,700 --> 01:11:00,600 created an intersubjective consensus like you from Europe 1373 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,000 and B 4. America about what this could 1374 01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:04,700 look like. And I think that that's 1375 01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:07,400 completely valid. There's also probably, you know, 1376 01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,200 the infrastructure I can't speak to in Asia or South America what 1377 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,800 it looks like as well. But I guess like one last thing 1378 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,100 I'll say is that you know, like one of the things I think that 1379 01:11:17,100 --> 01:11:20,600 the grit, the big risks of this spaces, that if you build the 1380 01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:24,500 optimal sick, optimal signal generation mechanism for what 1381 01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:28,000 people value, what do we do? If we build the perfect channel 1382 01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,100 for people to express their preferences and they have shitty 1383 01:11:30,100 --> 01:11:32,700 preferences. Like what if you don't want to 1384 01:11:32,700 --> 01:11:34,800 save for education or health insurance? 1385 01:11:35,100 --> 01:11:38,700 Like I don't know what you do then other than you know invest 1386 01:11:38,700 --> 01:11:43,200 in education and risk management and social safety nets from an 1387 01:11:43,208 --> 01:11:44,800 infrastructure level. And then you get into 1388 01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:48,300 complicated questions about like should be coerce people into 1389 01:11:48,300 --> 01:11:51,600 into saving for education or retirement and and I haven't 1390 01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:52,800 figured out the like what do we do? 1391 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,000 If if like you build the signal generation mechanism and people 1392 01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:00,700 have values that are like I haven't, I haven't worked out 1393 01:12:00,700 --> 01:12:02,000 that part. Of the equation. 1394 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,900 Yeah, so the that's because there's a kind of my thoughts on 1395 01:12:04,900 --> 01:12:07,000 the subject but I think that it's an unsolved problem. 1396 01:12:07,900 --> 01:12:11,600 Yeah, and they're certainly like some non skeuomorphic, you know, 1397 01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,700 like Paradigm shifts that that are meant to happen there. 1398 01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:20,400 So, you know, if you know that does this does funding education 1399 01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,300 in 20 years from now, like if you're working for a doubt like, 1400 01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,400 you know, does that look the same as what it looks like? 1401 01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:30,400 Now just saving for retirement. Look the same like, you know, 1402 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,800 Health Care. Whereas Like that. 1403 01:12:31,900 --> 01:12:35,400 I mean that's also there's also different levels here. 1404 01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:36,600 Right? I mean, to, basically there's 1405 01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,900 things that kind of pertain to yourself and your own future, 1406 01:12:40,100 --> 01:12:44,300 but saving for Education, typically actually pertains to 1407 01:12:44,300 --> 01:12:46,500 your kids, futures, or at least, you know, the younger 1408 01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:50,400 generation, so I feel like I mean, if you suffer from your 1409 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,100 own bad choices, okay, that's too bad. 1410 01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,800 If your kids suffer from your bad choices, I think to me, 1411 01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,000 that's a different story. Sure. 1412 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:03,200 Yeah, one of the one of the, the sort of ideas that's in the 1413 01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,500 book, which I originally got from UNC strickler. 1414 01:13:05,500 --> 01:13:07,800 The founder of Kickstarter, is this idea of Bento is? 1415 01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,600 MM, which is how do we move from a financial system that 1416 01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:15,400 prioritises instant gratification to, which is now 1417 01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:20,400 me, which is like, to to the group, which is now us. 1418 01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:22,800 So, how do we move from? What's good for me now to what's 1419 01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:26,400 good for everyone? Everyone now or like my family 1420 01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:30,500 now, and then the other Your is Futures, which is basically 1421 01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:34,500 like, how do we move from now me to Future me and then like, you 1422 01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:37,900 make, you make that into a 4 by 4 Matrix, and it's now me now US 1423 01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:41,700 future us and future me. And so, how do we build a 1424 01:13:41,700 --> 01:13:44,200 financial system that like passes? 1425 01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:47,300 The marshmallow test of, basically, you know, how do we 1426 01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:49,900 plan into the future? And how do we plan for the group 1427 01:13:49,900 --> 01:13:53,500 instead of the individual? And I think that that's just 1428 01:13:53,500 --> 01:13:56,400 like a lens that you could look through the design of Ridge 1429 01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,800 regenerative crypto economics. And in like, by the way, you 1430 01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:02,600 like it, be hard to do worse than the old, find it like, at 1431 01:14:02,608 --> 01:14:04,700 least in the United States. We have this quarterly earnings 1432 01:14:04,700 --> 01:14:07,400 cycle and all of these, like, executives are just focused on 1433 01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:08,900 their next quarterly earning cycle. 1434 01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:12,700 And, you know, I think it'd be hard to do worse than that in 1435 01:14:12,700 --> 01:14:14,600 the crypto ecosystem. Hopefully, we can build better 1436 01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,600 Primitives for coordination, that can plan. 1437 01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,500 Further out for existential risks, that don't fit into the 1438 01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:21,800 quarterly. The quarterly cycle likes a 1439 01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:23,500 climate change or digital infrastructure. 1440 01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:29,600 Yeah, I think I think somehow it's really difficult to kind of 1441 01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,200 straddle the gap between what we think is right and what is 1442 01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,900 generally done in the accept. Accept it in not question. 1443 01:14:35,900 --> 01:14:38,300 So I mean basically, I mean Kevin you also have kids. 1444 01:14:38,300 --> 01:14:40,800 So basically you will also know this, they will ask you. 1445 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,600 Why does why does someone sleep on the street? 1446 01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:46,600 Why don't we give them food? Why don't we give them? 1447 01:14:46,700 --> 01:14:49,600 Why don't we give them money? So basically things that in 1448 01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,600 principle seem like they are no-brainers. 1449 01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:57,700 I mean, No one should go hungry, when obviously in principle, 1450 01:14:57,700 --> 01:14:59,300 there's enough to eat. Right? 1451 01:14:59,700 --> 01:15:04,300 So all of these things that that that kind of, that's there are 1452 01:15:04,300 --> 01:15:06,400 no brainers. When you explain them to kids, 1453 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,600 somehow we still get used to them and we don't question them 1454 01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,900 everyday. So, how do you think we? 1455 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:24,300 We avoid Mora fatigue? That's a really great question. 1456 01:15:24,900 --> 01:15:27,600 I think the first thing I'll say is that, you know, arguably were 1457 01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,000 already suffering from a certain amount of moral fatigue. 1458 01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,000 So maybe I'd reframe your question into how do we pay down 1459 01:15:34,300 --> 01:15:37,100 the the moral fatigue, that we've inherited? 1460 01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,400 But the other thing that I'll say is that, I'm my really my 1461 01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:46,700 goal for forget, coin is to build a channel that greater 1462 01:15:46,700 --> 01:15:49,700 combinations of intelligence and strength can come together. 1463 01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,400 And this is actually a key point, that Well, you know, it's 1464 01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:59,300 not my values that like, I don't want the thing that causes that, 1465 01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:03,500 I believe in to be to be the ones that are funded. 1466 01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:07,200 I want to build the most perfect, the, the best rails for 1467 01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:11,900 expression of human values and for those combinations of 1468 01:16:11,900 --> 01:16:13,800 strength and intelligence to come together. 1469 01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,300 And so, my hope is that, by building this coordination 1470 01:16:16,300 --> 01:16:21,800 infrastructure that when you have these these areas where 1471 01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:24,600 there's a very Clear coordination failure in the case 1472 01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,600 of what you asked like, we failed to give this person on a 1473 01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:33,400 street, a like food and probably home in like the chance to 1474 01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:37,400 contribute to society and to be productive member of society. 1475 01:16:37,407 --> 01:16:42,000 Like my hope is that by building the rails through which Humanity 1476 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:47,800 can express its preferences that we can that we can solve some of 1477 01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,600 these coordination failures. And you know, maybe we build 1478 01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,700 this and it turns out people really do care about About 1479 01:16:52,700 --> 01:16:54,200 homelessness. They just don't have a good 1480 01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:55,900 coordination mechanism to solve it. 1481 01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:58,000 And that would be the bullish case for this. 1482 01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,600 This infrastructure and the bearish case would be 0. 1483 01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,300 We build the signaled aggregation preferences and 1484 01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:06,300 like, people don't care. They just like step over the 1485 01:17:06,300 --> 01:17:08,300 person on the side of the street, and you know, that would 1486 01:17:08,300 --> 01:17:10,800 make me personally sad. But you know, at least we've got 1487 01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:16,700 the value of the signal generation tools out there. 1488 01:17:16,700 --> 01:17:19,800 And then I think it becomes like an education and, and like a 1489 01:17:19,808 --> 01:17:22,300 governance question of like, why don't we care? 1490 01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,800 About about these things. Like what is it about our values 1491 01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,200 that causes us to? So I see you want to say 1492 01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:27,900 something. Go ahead. 1493 01:17:28,300 --> 01:17:31,900 Yeah, but Kevin, do you think it's a signal thing because 1494 01:17:31,900 --> 01:17:35,900 basically I think I mean if you kind of change the context, 1495 01:17:35,900 --> 01:17:38,800 right? Say you go hiking and you see 1496 01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:45,100 and and basically you're in the middle of nowhere in the Rockies 1497 01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,900 and you come upon a person who's clearly hungry and thirsty and 1498 01:17:49,900 --> 01:17:51,500 asks you for food. What do you do? 1499 01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:52,600 Of course you give them. It. 1500 01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:54,200 Right? Because you're the only person 1501 01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,300 there, right? Basically, but as soon as you 1502 01:17:56,300 --> 01:18:00,300 actually if, as soon as you transpose, the exact same thing 1503 01:18:00,300 --> 01:18:05,200 is seeing a theme to downtown anywhere in the world. 1504 01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,900 People react fundamentally differently because they think 1505 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:12,000 this is no longer their problem. They are no longer. 1506 01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:13,600 The only person who can solve it. 1507 01:18:13,700 --> 01:18:16,000 And basically, this is society's problem now, right? 1508 01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:20,100 So basically, I, I would kind of posit that basically there's 1509 01:18:20,100 --> 01:18:25,600 like this disconnect between personal morality and societal 1510 01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:30,400 morality that kind of absolves you from the human decency that 1511 01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:33,700 to kind of act and you step over that person. 1512 01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,800 And I'm yeah, so I'm not sure whether whether signaling is 1513 01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,800 actually the problem. You have a numbness of like the 1514 01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,800 lack of hope I think, is is a real problem. 1515 01:18:43,900 --> 01:18:45,900 So like, first, I want to say that like, I'm extremely 1516 01:18:45,900 --> 01:18:49,100 privileged to be where I am in my life and working on something 1517 01:18:49,100 --> 01:18:52,600 that I love and have a house and a family and all the Those 1518 01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:54,400 hierarchies takes mostly taken care of. 1519 01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:57,100 And I think that we should not take that for granted. 1520 01:18:57,700 --> 01:19:00,500 And and I really feel that like deeply when I hear your question 1521 01:19:00,500 --> 01:19:06,300 asked, you know, when I wonder why we feel so numb in that 1522 01:19:06,300 --> 01:19:08,900 situation and any other, the question that comes to mind for 1523 01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:10,400 me. Is that in a hike? 1524 01:19:12,300 --> 01:19:15,200 In May it the way I would try to rationalize it and this may be 1525 01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:18,300 wrong, and it may be totally callous, even try to even try. 1526 01:19:18,300 --> 01:19:20,600 But I'm gonna try against my better judgment. 1527 01:19:20,700 --> 01:19:23,800 Is that if I see someone lost in the woods, then my assumption is 1528 01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,500 maybe, oh, they're lost, like, they just got lost and it was 1529 01:19:26,500 --> 01:19:30,000 like a mistake. Whereas I think that there's 1530 01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,800 many, many deep unfurled societal problems with 1531 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:42,300 homelessness in cities which have to do with probably Social 1532 01:19:42,300 --> 01:19:44,200 City infrastructure. And by the way, this is worse in 1533 01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:46,100 America than it is for you all in Europe. 1534 01:19:46,500 --> 01:19:49,600 Probably mental health, education, drug abuse. 1535 01:19:49,700 --> 01:19:52,800 And these are systemic problems. That cannot be solved by giving 1536 01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,100 someone a sandwich. Like, you know, if someone's 1537 01:19:57,100 --> 01:20:00,900 just lost in the woods, I would presume there's less, there's 1538 01:20:00,900 --> 01:20:05,600 less systemic issues there and I do think that those systemic 1539 01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:09,200 issues behind the person in this city, which you know, may or may 1540 01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:11,400 not be right on an individual basis. 1541 01:20:11,900 --> 01:20:17,100 Our human coordination failures, and I do think that, you know, 1542 01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:20,900 we're kind of speculating here, but I do think that if you can 1543 01:20:20,900 --> 01:20:24,500 solve for the education and and the drug abuse, and the lack of 1544 01:20:24,500 --> 01:20:28,000 employment infrastructure and all that kind of stuff, then 1545 01:20:28,300 --> 01:20:31,500 there may be, people will be less numb and and that we can 1546 01:20:31,500 --> 01:20:35,000 have more hope but maybe that's an optimistic take and and and 1547 01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:37,800 maybe it's even an appropriate for me to speculate about these 1548 01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:39,700 things from my my place of privilege. 1549 01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:44,900 Well, I think we'll leave that note to end on it. 1550 01:20:44,900 --> 01:20:48,200 But no, certainly this like been really fascinating discussions. 1551 01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,000 As taking us down. All kinds of rabbit holes. 1552 01:20:50,900 --> 01:20:52,200 It wasn't expecting it to get here. 1553 01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:55,100 But yeah, this is great. So where can people find out 1554 01:20:55,100 --> 01:20:59,400 more about the book, which is called green pill and and just 1555 01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:01,000 get involved with what you're doing. 1556 01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:03,300 Yeah. Thanks. 1557 01:21:03,500 --> 01:21:07,000 So you can Google me. I'm Kevin a walkie and the only 1558 01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,900 iwaki out there that I think that you'll find if you Google 1559 01:21:09,900 --> 01:21:12,500 that. And you can go to green pill dot 1560 01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:13,600 party. If you want to download a 1561 01:21:13,608 --> 01:21:16,400 digital version of the book, if any of your listeners are a 1562 01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:19,500 teeth Denver, then I will be giving out physical copies there 1563 01:21:19,500 --> 01:21:22,100 as well. Really enjoyed the conversation 1564 01:21:22,100 --> 01:21:25,000 and I appreciated that we didn't go that we didn't gloss over the 1565 01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,800 hard topics. Looking forward to continuing 1566 01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:30,900 the conversation and thanks so much for having me and we'll 1567 01:21:30,900 --> 01:21:33,100 have you again on but not in four years. 1568 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:34,800 Thanks. Again. 1569 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:38,100 Keven a pleasure, sounds good. Looking forward. 1570 01:21:40,300 --> 01:21:42,200 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1571 01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,100 We release new episodes every week. 1572 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:47,400 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1573 01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,500 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1574 01:21:50,900 --> 01:21:53,700 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1575 01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:55,800 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast. 1576 01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,200 Go to epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for a full list of 1577 01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,900 places where you can watch and listen, while you're there, be 1578 01:22:01,900 --> 01:22:03,000 sure to sign up for the newsletter. 1579 01:22:03,300 --> 01:22:05,900 You get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 1580 01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:09,000 If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast 1581 01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:11,800 listeners, you can Follow us on Twitter and please leave us a 1582 01:22:11,808 --> 01:22:14,600 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 1583 01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,500 happy to read them with. Thanks so much and we look 1584 01:22:17,500 --> 01:22:18,600 forward to being back next week.