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This is epicenter episode 446 
where the guests than Finlay. 

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Welcome to epicenter the show 
which talks about the 

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00:00:21,608 --> 00:00:24,600
Technologies projects and people
with driving decentralization 

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00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,900
and the blockchain revolution. 
I am fig Rica Anton. 

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I'm here with special. 
Guest co-host, Felix lunch. 

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Today. 
We're speaking with Dan Finlay, 

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who is the founder and group 
manager of meta mask. 

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But before we talk with Dan 
about meta mask, let me tell you

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00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:40,900
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So Texas are great, but they're 
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Like Mev failed transactions and
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Top Tech has these issues head 
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trading experience. 
But by gnosis cow, swap is a 

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meta decks aggregator. 
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It's a decks aggregate aggregate
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Mev by matching overlapping 
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No, coincidences of once is 
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comes from. 
Traitor settled on a variety of 

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underlying on chain AMS, 
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the best price, give cows web, 
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Head over to Klaus, Schwab dot 
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today. 
Then it's an absolute pleasure 

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to have you on Yeah, thanks so 
much for having me. 

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I've been a fan of epicenter for
so long. 

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I'm just delighted to be here. 
Hmm, then so, we go way back to 

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Tia, you know, to my consensus 
days. 

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So, tell us about yourself and 
how you got into the blockchain 

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universe. 
Ah, well, I guess I, I'll try to

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keep it brief, but with a little
taste of why it caught my eye, 

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you know, like sure I got paid 
for in Bitcoin for a An odd job 

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one time and I was cool, but I 
lost it about docks and it 

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didn't really catch my 
attention. 

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I mean, I saw the slashdot 
article when it first came out, 

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and I thought it'd be cool. 
I did not learn how it worked. 

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I went to the faucet. 
I have no idea how much that 

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would have been worth. 
I definitely don't have that 

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anymore. 
And then when I was working at 

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Apple with my friend who Mabus, 
he went to a meet-up and and 

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started talking to well, a 
friend of his of ours, A Dominic

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tar. 
Our who is the creator of 

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scuttlebutt? 
We'd met him through the node, 

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the node js community and he was
really into decentralization. 

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You know, he made scuttlebutt. 
I remember attending a workshop.

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He made on making peer-to-peer 
chat rooms and he pointed out 

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aetherium to come office and 
then come obvious one to a 

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meet-up with metallic and then 
he came to me and it it sparked 

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my imagination, you know, it was
like he it was all he wanted to 

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talk about at lunch and I was 
there for it and so we were just

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like, riffing on it. 
There were a few Inside to try 

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to make in the past that this 
seems suited to. 

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So things like a debate system 
where you could figure out how 

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trustworthy a claim was or a 
voting system where you could 

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allocate funds or 
microtransactions. 

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And like these are all things 
where I was like, oh, finally 

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money and the internet. 
This is great. 

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We started trying to make a 
thing. 

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Of course, there was no account 
manager yet. 

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So we made Metal mask, and, you 
know, it built in all of our 

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prior assumptions. 
And I think that a lot of the 

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blockchain space today is kind 
of built out of everybody's 

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initial. 
Pression of what this new alien 

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technology is made out of and, 
and we, we made our best shot at

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it. 
It was good enough to make a lot

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of stuff and that's kind of 
where we are. 

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Now. 
We've been iterating, and 

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fine-tuning and improving. 
And for a few years now, I think

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we validated it enough that you 
know, obviously now there's a 

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lot of big players entering the 
space and you know, like 

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well-funded think it what 
yesterday, Robin Hood announced.

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They're going to have a web 
three, something, you know, all 

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that's very interesting. 
It's very funny for me where I 

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feel like we've done so much 
wrong and we have so much to fix

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for tap people. 
Copying the current state of 

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things. 
I feel like all I see is ways to

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improve and and I feel like 
everybody's kind of still just 

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doing impressions of web to you 
know, it's like we want to have 

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kind of an account model, right?
Or like and money or something 

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and I think I think there's a 
lot of kind of What a lot of 

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uncertainty about what it's 
supposed to look like eventually

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to interact with apps. 
And I think that we've kind of, 

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finally figured out. 
How does it really work? 

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And we just haven't shipped them
all yet, and we're like in that 

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process. 
So I think we've like, you know,

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just earned in this wonderful 
wealth of experience and we've 

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built up a really amazing team 
recently. 

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We brought the my crypto team 
in, and you know, there, another

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one of the wallet teams that 
just has consistently seem to 

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just have there. 
Finger on the pulse of like user

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actual needs, you know, 
understanding like the gravity 

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of the situation and how kind of
carefully we need to move with 

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changes in things. 
So that yeah, sorry. 

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There it is. 
In a nutshell. 

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That's pretty much how I got 
into it and how I got to where I

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am now. 
Yeah, awesome. 

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That sounds cool. 
I guess we can go a little bit 

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into that. 
Right? 

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As you just mentioned. 
You said basically weren't hired

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directly to build a wallet, but 
you kind of figured it out with 

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within consensus. 
And now maybe you can tell us a 

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little bit about how how that 
Journey was from building metal 

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mask into what it is today and 
how maybe a bit about the team, 

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how it grew. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
Kumar has had started metal mask

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even outside of consensus and so
When when he got hired at 

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consensus, suddenly, he had the 
capacity to offer jobs to people

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and so I was like, you know, I 
was kind of early in my Tech 

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Career. 
So I was I was a let's say not 

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as eager to jump out and start 
making my first startup as he 

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was but I joined him. 
As soon as consensus was funding

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the project and I was really 
excited to and and yeah the 

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consensus was this wonderful 
just kind of chaotic incubator 

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at the early stage. 
There's like, I don't know. 

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It must have been hundreds of of
different experiments getting 

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validated and tried out there. 
And there was a really exciting 

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energy, you know, surely there 
were a lot of projects getting 

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built before the kind of 
platform was ready to really 

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support it think I think back 
then it was very normal to just 

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kind of build your application 
as if the blockchain was going 

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to scale or did scale already. 
So you just treat the solidity 

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contract like it was a rails 
back end and keep everything on 

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the chain and I think I think 
that over time people have had 

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the The issue hammered into 
their heads and have a lot of 

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different ideas about how it 
needs to get addressed. 

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And yeah, that's just one of the
one of the ways that we're 

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continuing to kind of grow and 
evolve. 

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I was thinking back earlier on 
how I first used metal mask when

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it came out and kind of we've 
all gotten so used to living 

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with browser extension wallets, 
right? 

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So but zooming out, I kind of, I
remember how dodgy it felt back 

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then just to kind of interact 
with the browser extension for 

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something that they're just so 
obviously value transaction. 

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So how did you and come rviz 
make that decision to kind of 

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build this as a browser 
extension rather than a 

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standalone application? 
Yeah, so when we first started 

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building their, the Mist wallet 
browser was already kind of 

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occupying the Standalone 
installer space and so they were

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they were also doing a full node
thing. 

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So you did install this, this in
executable you'd get a browser 

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and it would sink the blockchain
and your computer would heat up.

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And you do, you know, wait, I 
think it only took like 15 to 30

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minutes to sink back then. 
But, you know, so it was a kind 

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of weird experience. 
Every time you open your laptop 

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kind of heat it up or whatever, 
and Of the kind of founding 

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principles for metal mask was we
want to make it easy to get in, 

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right? 
So we're trying to like, look, 

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how do we smooth the adoption 
path? 

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What are the assumptions that we
can kind of weakened? 

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And and that are like maybe okay
to compromise on for first time 

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users at the first of which was 
using in fira having a hosted 

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kind of trusted connection for 
the blockchain to start. 

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It was a very controversial take
at the time and you know, there 

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are still some people that feel 
very Gently that that's like, 

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you know, fundamentally wrong 
and broken. 

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And, you know, I would love to 
see long-term more block chains 

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that are lightweight enough to 
run on consumer Hardware, but 

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that's not even one. 
Each one is just kind of 

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Impractical task users. 
Like especially when they're 

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first getting started. 
Right. 

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When your first interaction with
the nude app is somebody saying,

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hey, here's a way to sell an NFC
or something. 

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Right? 
If the barrier is first 

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installed this, you know, 20 GB 
thing on your hard drive and 

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then you can Look at a picture. 
That's that's a very hard sell 

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and so commodious. 
And I were both were both web 

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developers. 
We both had a real love for the 

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kind of permissionless. 
NE some of the web, the fact 

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that you can drop a link into 
any text chat that you have with

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someone completely between any 
channels. 

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It could be, you know, an SMS. 
It could be an email. 

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It doesn't matter where you take
this magic little link. 

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And now, suddenly, you're in 
somebody else's world, like that

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was for us, one of our design 
goals. 

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We're like, you should be able 
to click a link to one. 

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And go to it. 
And and yeah, it's so so that 

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was kind of a guiding principle 
to start and come off as spent, 

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you know, a first initial pass, 
a good portion of a first-year 

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trying to make the whole wallet 
kind of light browser work 

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entirely without an extension 
like working with in an iframe 

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within the browser. 
Basically building a browser in 

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the browser, which is, you know,
an impressive thing to try. 

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And then at a certain point, it 
was either me or Nick Dodson was

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just like, hey, wouldn't it 
save? 

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What if we just make tried 
making a web extension? 

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00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:11,600
And he's like, yeah. 
And and it like he took what he 

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had done and, you know in like 
three days or something. 

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He'd put it into extension. 
And then I was like, all right, 

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00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:20,400
let's get this ready for a 
hackathon because there's sxsw 

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was coming up. 
And so we just got a good enough

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00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:27,000
to hack on just to play with. 
And there's this music. 

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Hackathon had a whole bunch of 
music creators and hackers, 

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00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:32,500
who'd never heard of blockchain 
before, it was just the music 

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00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:35,600
hack about not a blockchain 
hackathon and we started Him, 

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00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,900
you know, hey, what do you think
you could do if you had money in

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00:11:38,900 --> 00:11:41,900
your, You music ecosystem, you 
know, I was, we were touring 

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00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:45,800
with you Joe at the time and, 
you know, just, you know, a lot 

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of ideas were things like, oh, 
the microtransactions of what if

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00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,600
you make a beat and then you get
paid when people mix it into 

216
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,000
beats and, you know, things like
that. 

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00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,400
And you know artists no artists 
know what it's like to not get 

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00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,500
your work valued, adequately and
and yet they also know the value

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00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,000
of Their audience and more and 
more with internet with 

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00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,000
Kickstarter and you know my 
patreon and things like that 

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00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,200
people. 
Having access to your audience's

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00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,300
powerful. 
And so I think it was it was a 

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00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:11,800
great event. 
And and yeah it kind of from 

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00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,600
there. 
It was high friction. 

225
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,400
A lot of people were skeptical, 
a lot of people, you know, other

226
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,900
hackathon hosts, there were 
like, you know, I'm going to 

227
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,000
still recommend a maybe build a 
wall into their application, you

228
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,500
know, because it was just too 
weird at that time, but you 

229
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:29,500
know, that's, we've seen culture
shift a few times and during our

230
00:12:29,508 --> 00:12:32,800
time here at meta mask. 
And yeah, why an extension 

231
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,700
wouldn't it be more stable as a 
desktop? 

232
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,000
Well, I mean, I totally believe 
that long-term more of the stuff

233
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,600
should be lower and lower level.
You know, you want the maximum 

234
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,100
security, you want to open 
Hardware, you want, Hardware 

235
00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,300
wallets, you want the maximum 
guarantees, you can get the 

236
00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:51,000
browser really was a decision 
because it's it's an on-ramp. 

237
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,400
It's a first experience. 
It's about being able to give 

238
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,600
somebody just that link that 
drops them in as quickly as 

239
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,200
possible. 
And and really, I think that we 

240
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,300
can do, we can do much better 
even than our current thing that

241
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:04,800
the current Norm of making 
somebody get a wallet. 

242
00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:08,300
And then Log in and select an 
account and get some eith all 

243
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:11,400
before they can like like a post
or something. 

244
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,800
I think I think that that's a 
bad design pattern and I think 

245
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,700
that we can do better as a 
community for that. 

246
00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:22,200
But yeah, yeah, that's a kind of
getting ahead of myself. 

247
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:26,400
Yeah, we're definitely want to 
like hear more about where you 

248
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,900
think that should be going, I 
guess, right? 

249
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,600
As you said, you kind of were 
part of the making these design 

250
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,900
patterns that are now they're 
like, sign in with your wallet. 

251
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,500
Things like that, right? 
In this hackathon. 

252
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,300
It seems that wasn't even a 
thing yet. 

253
00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:41,700
And people didn't really know 
how that interaction would work.

254
00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:45,000
I guess. 
It's also segue to like metal 

255
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,300
mask is not just a browser 
extension, right? 

256
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,300
There's also mathematics mobile 
which, which, I guess. 

257
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:54,200
Is has been a big Trend to get 
like more people on board, 

258
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,600
right? 
People are used to use their 

259
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,600
phone for their banking apps or 
wallet, or in general to use 

260
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,400
their phone. 
And then obviously you made the 

261
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,200
choice to also build metal mask 
mobile. 

262
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,800
Can you talk a little bit about 
we wear that, it's sad, how it 

263
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,900
is decision was made kind of how
people use it today. 

264
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,600
Yeah, I think mobiles, one of 
the easiest decisions in the 

265
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,000
world because, you know, you 
just look at the numbers. 

266
00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:20,800
Most, everybody just about has a
phone and not everybody. 

267
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:22,800
A computer and you're like, 
okay. 

268
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,400
Well, there you go. 
Mobile's therefore has to be the

269
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,100
future. 
Now. 

270
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:29,400
I think there's some real 
advantages for the desktop, 

271
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,200
which is that in particular 
everything's getting programs on

272
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,300
a desktop. 
So so if you're the developer 

273
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:39,000
tool, then you're going to 
you're going to make the 

274
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,900
developers going to make sure 
that you're compatible with 

275
00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:42,500
them. 
So the extension has this kind 

276
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:45,300
of developer experience 
advantage and I think that 

277
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,300
there's there's kind of an 
uphill battle to make sure that 

278
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,300
that web three sites kind of 
work as As well on mobile and 

279
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:54,600
you know, we've got a ways to go
on that developer tooling but 

280
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,700
the goal was always to basically
say, you know, same promises the

281
00:14:57,708 --> 00:15:01,200
web, you know, you make a 
website and it works on desktop 

282
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,700
or mobile that shouldn't matter,
you know, we're trying to build 

283
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:07,500
an internet of value, you should
be able to take value wherever 

284
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,500
you go, you know, just not just 
confined to when you're sitting 

285
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,000
at your computer. 
It's you know, it's a dynamic 

286
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,300
thing. 
You should be able to make any 

287
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,400
agreement anywhere you want. 
You know within your own terms, 

288
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,300
you know, maybe you don't carry 
around the, you know, carry 

289
00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:25,300
around your grandmother's pearls
on the when you're going out but

290
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:27,500
you know, you bring some 
spending cash, you know, things 

291
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:30,200
like that. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

292
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,700
Can you give us some idea how 
many people use. 

293
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,100
Meta Moscow, what kind of values
are stored in? 

294
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:41,500
Meta mask? 
What kind of use cases it's 

295
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:45,300
actually used for by people. 
I'm pretty. 

296
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,500
I'm I don't know. 
Really say this. 

297
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,400
I'm pretty sure like 98% of 
people who listen to this 

298
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,700
podcast, have first-hand 
experience with meta mask, but I

299
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:57,300
think kind of hearing the stats 
is the warranted. 

300
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:00,200
Yeah. 
So the latest number I heard is 

301
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,900
that we finally got to around 35
million monthly active users. 

302
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:07,100
That's somebody who in the 
month, has interacted with an 

303
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:08,900
app. 
So either they connected, where 

304
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:13,400
they approve the transaction or 
signature or something, and the 

305
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,500
use cases are actually quite 
varied, you know. 

306
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,800
So, depending on your corner of 
the crypto sphere, you might be 

307
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,300
in a bubble and you might think 
that there's only one major use 

308
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:26,100
case, you know, I know that the 
nft community sees itself as 

309
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,300
often as like the kind of one 
thing that's going on the defy 

310
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,100
communities. 
Definitely had a period of 

311
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:35,600
seeing herself as the possible 
main use case gaming is also, 

312
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,700
for many people. 
The only use that they have for 

313
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:41,400
meta masks were web 3 and and 
then there's meanwhile, there's 

314
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,700
the whole do ecosystem people, 
you know, figuring out how to 

315
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,000
issue grants and fundraise. 
Lee. 

316
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,700
I think these are all really 
cool in different ways, I think 

317
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,400
they all have some common themes
of kind of giving people 

318
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,800
ownership of digital rights and 
I do kind of think of a wallet 

319
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,599
as one of these computer, like, 
things that has to be dynamic. 

320
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,200
It has to fit your needs. 
It can't be well, I mean, don't 

321
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,500
get me wrong, it can be custom 
tailored to a use case. 

322
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:15,500
So some some wallets, you know, 
maybe ones that you might have 

323
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:18,800
mentioned in the Tro might be 
giving a very good experience 

324
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,200
around something like staking 
for example, and for somebody 

325
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,500
who wants to get yield on 
staking that's great and you 

326
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,500
know, having a lots of staking 
options really quickly is a 

327
00:17:27,508 --> 00:17:30,800
really reasonable Niche for a 
while at occupy and there are 

328
00:17:30,808 --> 00:17:32,600
other wallets that are 
specialized in gaming and 

329
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,100
there's other wallets that are 
specialized it. 

330
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:38,200
And I've teased I think partly 
just for historical reasons 

331
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,200
because Madame, s kind of was 
the first thing that just made 

332
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,500
like anything possible. 
We're kind of in this position 

333
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:48,000
where we still kind of serve 
everybody and So we kind of are 

334
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,400
in a position where by necessity
partly and then also because 

335
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,700
it's an interesting position 
continue to pursue being a 

336
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:59,600
general-purpose wallet and and 
you know, frankly, I wouldn't 

337
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,400
have it any other way. 
I think it's a really, really 

338
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,100
interesting problem. 
I've come to know the the the 

339
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:08,000
challenges and solutions that 
are available to this kind of 

340
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,600
Niche. 
I think they're kind of 

341
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,200
essential to Safe Computing in 
general. 

342
00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:15,500
I think the problems that we're 
taking on as a wallet are 

343
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:18,100
actually pretty. 
Much the same problems that you 

344
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:19,600
have. 
Keeping your computer safe. 

345
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,300
The reason people get fished and
hacked on the web. 

346
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,900
It's not because there's 
cryptocurrency is because 

347
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:28,300
there's cryptocurrency and 
people don't know how to keep 

348
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,500
computers safe. 
Like, there's kind of two 

349
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,300
problems here and if 
cryptocurrency had evolved in an

350
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,700
environment where people knew 
how to keep computer safe. 

351
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,100
I don't think we would have this
problem, but I don't think that 

352
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:42,000
history ever pushed people to 
secure their computers this hard

353
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,900
before. 
And I think that we're kind of 

354
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,800
seeing, okay, we've had personal
computers for You know, 30 some 

355
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,500
odd years, but the truth is 
they're kind of badly secured, 

356
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:54,300
kind of just good enough. 
We have to invalidate our 

357
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:57,400
passwords every two days, just 
to kind of have a chance at not 

358
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,300
getting identity thieved. 
And I think it's, for me. 

359
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:04,500
It's forced me to step back and 
say, hey, wait a minute, like 

360
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:08,100
computers themselves are kind of
like alien technology. 

361
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:12,300
We're kind of just cargo cult 
around computers saying, like, 

362
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:15,100
what are these good for? 
Can we build Society on them? 

363
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:16,900
You know, but I don't think 
we've answered Answered, 

364
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:18,600
fundamental questions about 
computers yet. 

365
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,800
I don't think people, but I 
think that the patterns are 

366
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,900
emerging. 
So things like permission 

367
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,500
systems things like having good 
sandboxing, think those are like

368
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:29,700
the beginnings of like, oh, 
keeping untrusted things at 

369
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,000
arm's length. 
And I think that those patterns 

370
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,100
that you see, you know, Androids
got a pretty good sandbox and 

371
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:37,800
permissions model. 
Think that's very similar to 

372
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,400
what we end up being in the 
internet of value. 

373
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,400
And so we're kind of we're 
rediscovering, kind of the same 

374
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,500
principles were saying, what 
does it mean to have some 

375
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,200
Digital rights or 
responsibilities and then 

376
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,300
selectively kind of wire them 
together. 

377
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:55,300
Not just with your printer and 
your disk drive, but now with 

378
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:59,000
like the rest of the world's 
Computing and doing that in a 

379
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,700
coherent and Safe. 
Way is like, it's like the 

380
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:05,700
whole, it's a very big fun. 
Interesting problem for for 

381
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:09,600
computing in general. 
Wow, yeah, that's that's go 

382
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,600
super David. 
I know you are also kind of part

383
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,800
of this aghori community a 
little bit where this is this 

384
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,400
kind of related right to object 
base capabilities and and kind 

385
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,900
of trying to keep things secure 
like that on the smart contract 

386
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:23,100
level. 
I guess. 

387
00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:28,200
I'm also wondering why Iris the 
wallet part in that is there are

388
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,300
there certain areas where the 
wallet plays a role? 

389
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,300
Or is it really just on the 
contract level that you you kind

390
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:36,400
of shrink the Securities, the 
surface or are there like 

391
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,000
specific things on the wallet 
size? 

392
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,600
That can be improved in your 
opinion. 

393
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:44,700
Yeah. 
Yeah, I the general idea is that

394
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,200
I'm describing about making 
computer systems where you can 

395
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,100
reason about how to keep them 
secure. 

396
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,700
Those are very those are 
problems that I learned. 

397
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:57,100
The Agora folk had been thinking
about for a long time and I 

398
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:59,300
think some of the richest 
literature on that topic is 

399
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:02,700
coming out of them and their 
community and kind of adjacent 

400
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:05,700
groups to them and and I've 
really adored my time like 

401
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:08,900
getting to know them and getting
to collaborate with them on some

402
00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:11,400
projects. 
We've been funding them on a 

403
00:21:11,408 --> 00:21:15,500
grant. 
Due to renew them, but for their

404
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,500
secure JavaScript, or hardened 
J's project, which were using to

405
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:23,300
secure our supply chain and for 
building a portion of our 

406
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,700
extensibility system snaps and 
so sorry. 

407
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:32,400
Coming back to yeah. 
Yeah, sorry. 

408
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,200
So you're saying is that related
to a cork? 

409
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,300
Yes. 
Absolutely. 

410
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:37,600
Agaric. 
I think has a lot of experience 

411
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,600
building distributed systems. 
They kind of tend to draw people

412
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,000
into there. 
Community, who hip similar 

413
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,300
problems saying, like, oh, I 
tried to build an open 

414
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,500
multiplayer world and I realized
it's hard to make that safe and 

415
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,000
then they end up coming to a 
kind of similar consistent 

416
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,900
conclusions. 
And so, yeah, I think that 

417
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,700
there's some good good 
camaraderie there. 

418
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,200
I kind of was avoiding the, the 
jargon I'm practicing avoiding. 

419
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,700
Jargon as much as I can. 
If I say object capabilities, 

420
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,900
you might say, okay what I don't
care or something, you know. 

421
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:17,400
So but you know, if I say, you 
know, make make it 

422
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:20,500
understandable when you're 
taking risks, you know, that's 

423
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:25,600
basically the exact same thing. 
The idea of the object is that 

424
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,400
an object? 
Is this abstract thing. 

425
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,700
You own it, you know, it's like 
a token or an mft is an object. 

426
00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:35,900
And how do you basically 
maximally allow a user to 

427
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:37,900
interact with that and do things
with it? 

428
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,400
You know, the norm on 
blockchains today is one person 

429
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,300
has something Saying, if you 
want to do something, if you 

430
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,400
want to stake it, you know, you 
put it in that contract, you 

431
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,400
know, there are allowances, 
allow it to start to resemble. 

432
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,900
Sharing capabilities. 
Capabilities are kind of like, 

433
00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,600
extension cords, where you're 
like, you plug a port from one 

434
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,200
thing into another today, the 
norm for smart contracts. 

435
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,100
Everything has its own ports. 
You know, your C20 has one 

436
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:07,000
allowance standard Arc. 721 has 
another allowed standard your 

437
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,700
see, 11:55 the the multi token 
standard that board Apes uses. 

438
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,300
It has another With standard. 
And this one is not granular at 

439
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,800
all. 
When you give someone permission

440
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,300
to you to withdraw one board 
ape, you allow them to take all 

441
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,000
of your board apes. 
And this is the Crux of a whole 

442
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,300
phishing scam. 
This morning. 

443
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,000
Seth Green, you know, I know 
this will are like a week from 

444
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,600
now, Seth Green came out and he 
apparently was fished and 

445
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,400
through an allowance scam just 
like this, you know, they were 

446
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,900
able to ask him to approve one. 
You know, there's there's a 

447
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,900
there's a lot of problems that 
kind of combine to that. 

448
00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:43,100
There's there's a problem of 
some sourcing the metadata to 

449
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,400
represent. 
This is one of your things you 

450
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,200
care about. 
This isn't just a random smart 

451
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,200
contract and then there's a 
problem of the granularity of 

452
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,900
the permission. 
Like you shouldn't, you know, 

453
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,300
issue to all of them. 
That should maybe just be 21. 

454
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,600
So yeah. 
Yeah, the the basic theory is, 

455
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,300
how do you, how do you give 
people good authority over the 

456
00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:03,300
things they have and have access
to? 

457
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,600
And yet give them the ability to
compose them. 

458
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,700
Right? 
So safety and composability. 

459
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,700
We don't want to tie people's 
hands and say you're safe, you 

460
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,200
know. 
But we want to say, you know, 

461
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,500
okay, you can do whatever you 
want. 

462
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,700
But like, here's here's, here's 
how to stay safe. 

463
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,600
Here's here's the lines around 
the, the dangerous bits and, you

464
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,800
know, do what you're willing, 
you know, do what you want. 

465
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,100
You've touched on a multitude of
different topics and there's a 

466
00:24:30,108 --> 00:24:33,500
lot to unpack, and maybe let's 
start at the very beginning of 

467
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,600
setting up a wallet. 
So, basically, you said about 

468
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,300
what it, and then there's the 
seed, phrase, the 12 words are 

469
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:44,900
60 words or whatever. 
So, I mean, we've kind of, we've

470
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:49,800
gotten used to that, right. 
So basically, we know it's 

471
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,200
coming, but zooming out again, 
this seems like a terrible user 

472
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,000
experience, right? 
And so maybe that's that's talk 

473
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,800
about where you see the future 
of seat phrases. 

474
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,800
Do you see a future of seat 
phrases? 

475
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,400
I guess for legacy purposes, you
know like you you want you might

476
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,700
want to be able to back up some 
old things that are not 

477
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:16,900
transferable. 
Although, you know, if I have my

478
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:20,600
way, the ethereum blockchain 
will adopt some VIPs that allow 

479
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,200
you to transfer account holder 
ship to other accounts. 

480
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,200
And so you should be able to 
migrate them then to but yeah, 

481
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,400
so maybe but but I think we 
should be able to move off them 

482
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,000
as much as possible. 
I think it's It's nice that 

483
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,800
people have the option to be in 
total custodial control of their

484
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,300
wallets. 
And even critical that people 

485
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:43,800
have the option of keeping 
things. 

486
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,500
Totally cold, being able to send
assets to something. 

487
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:51,100
That is unhackable. 
Entirely is like, it's great. 

488
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:55,200
It's a proof that this is a 
decentralized system that nobody

489
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,400
can take her asset from you that
you can be as safe as you can 

490
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,600
keep anything. 
And that's that's all great. 

491
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:07,600
The problem is, is that Okay, 
you get this one secret and it 

492
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,600
has all your stuff, you know, 
and okay. 

493
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,000
So if you're very Advanced 
insecure, you might keep some on

494
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,200
a hardware wallet, but then 
Hardware wallets, they innovate 

495
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,000
even slower than the software 
while. 

496
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,700
It's so the things that you can 
do the transactions, you can 

497
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,600
review their fewer and fewer and
so you're trading off the 

498
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,700
usability of the system for 
security. 

499
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,200
And so that kind of comes back 
to. 

500
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,300
Okay, tying your hands and 
saying that you're safer. 

501
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,400
I think that we can do better 
than that. 

502
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:40,900
Ideally, you know, you'd go to a
site, you could use it a bit, do

503
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:43,600
some things. 
And then, if there was at some 

504
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,600
point, something you cared about
their, you can have the option 

505
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,400
to back it up in any number of 
ways that are, you know, kind of

506
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,100
risk tolerance to you. 
You could say, you know, do you 

507
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:56,700
know, if you've got a hard 
drive, that's good. 

508
00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:59,400
Fine. 
If you trust your disc, good, 

509
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,600
you know, if you want to use a 
hardware wallet. 

510
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:05,200
Great, you know, if you're cool 
with a putting it on your mobile

511
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,100
phone, using your mobile phone 
as a signer. 

512
00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:10,000
That's more solid for most 
people. 

513
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,600
If you've got an old phone that 
you don't use, that's an upgrade

514
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,300
also, and it's viable. 
And if you want to wire together

515
00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,700
a multisig, you know, for some 
higher Stakes things that can 

516
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,800
make sense. 
And then I think that kind of 

517
00:27:23,808 --> 00:27:26,800
the most critically missing 
piece that I think nobody's 

518
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,800
looking at right now just to 
drop a little bit of output or 

519
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,900
whatever it is. 
Is the allowing your different 

520
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:37,300
devices to be delegated. 
Just the permission that they 

521
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:40,100
need to operate. 
There's been a little bit of 

522
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,600
this from contract accounts like
Argent who have self-assigned 

523
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,100
daily spending limits, but those
self-assigned limits are still 

524
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:48,900
from an account that holds 
everything. 

525
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,000
And so if it gets compromised, 
you still lose everything. 

526
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,200
I want to see a world where you 
could have a cold wallet, whose 

527
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,600
assets you delegate to a 
hardware wallet in some limited.

528
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:05,500
A city, whose assets, you could 
then delegate to your hot wallet

529
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:08,600
in some limited capacity, you 
know, and so you could have, you

530
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,700
could have any number of 
accounts on any number of assets

531
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,100
and you don't really think about
them as accountant assets. 

532
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,500
You think of them as accounts 
error, sorry as assets. 

533
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:19,600
And each asset, may actually 
have a secret key behind it, but

534
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,200
you shouldn't have to reason 
about that. 

535
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,000
You should just know. 
I've got a bunch of stuff on 

536
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,100
this cold wallet or on his 
Hardware wallet and I'm setting 

537
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:28,900
up a new device. 
So what do I want that device to

538
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:33,600
have, you know, do I want it to 
be able All to give away my 

539
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:39,000
board ape know then don't give 
it permission to simple as that,

540
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,400
you know, that's the, that's 
the, like kind of object 

541
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,300
capability thing. 
It's just like, Consent like no 

542
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:47,900
permission without consent, 
right? 

543
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:49,900
So you should be able to have 
cold stuff, but then you should 

544
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,400
be able to delegate limited 
permissions. 

545
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,100
You say. 
This is going to be my, I'm 

546
00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:57,100
going to be voting on The ens do
from this. 

547
00:28:57,500 --> 00:28:59,000
I don't want to sell the tokens 
from this. 

548
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,200
I want to vote, so you should be
able to provision just the 

549
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,500
permissions you want. 
So you should be able to say I 

550
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,300
want voting rights on my hot 
machine. 

551
00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:08,700
I don't. 
And now you're hot machine would

552
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,200
be literally unhackable for 
anything other than that 

553
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,700
purpose. 
And if it was ever hacked, the 

554
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:16,000
worst thing that Could happen is
some bad boats, get cast in your

555
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,000
name and then you could revoke 
them from the initial granting 

556
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,200
Authority device, but that 
sounds like, I mean, that sounds

557
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,400
like more private keys not 
fewer. 

558
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,200
Right? 
So basically, by having more 

559
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:34,300
granular, permissions settings, 
you would actually have to, you 

560
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:38,900
know, hold and control way more 
private Keys than you currently.

561
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:42,400
I mean, so basically there are 
some people with stupid amounts 

562
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,600
of money on meta masks, right? 
So basically, See them at 

563
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,100
conferences and they show you 
something. 

564
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:52,900
And you go like okay, seriously,
this this is this is don't tell 

565
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:58,500
me. 
Yeah, so I know that ages ago at

566
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,300
consensus. 
There was this project that kind

567
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:08,600
of looked at like this in-game 
location thing as as a seed 

568
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,500
phrase. 
I do you think seed phrases will

569
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:16,700
ever become? 
More human memorable than they 

570
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:18,800
currently are. 
Or do you think we will just 

571
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,700
have to rely on backup 
mechanisms and Guardians and 

572
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:27,300
social recovery mechanisms. 
Where do you think it's going? 

573
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,800
Oh, I mean, kind of like I said,
at one point, I think people 

574
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,000
will be able to choose the ways 
that are preferable to them. 

575
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:37,800
So, if you want to do a 
brainwallet, you should be able 

576
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,200
to delegate, you know, you like,
you could memorize the right to 

577
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,400
withdraw all of your funds, 
right? 

578
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:46,500
And and then if you can memorize
the key that controls that, then

579
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:50,800
you can back up the message that
imbues that key on a public 

580
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,200
website. 
So everyone could see. 

581
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,100
Oh, there's a key out there that
could, you know, withdrawal of 

582
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,200
your funds and send them to the 
Bahamas or Whatever. 

583
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:03,300
And, and so I don't see any 
problem with people having the 

584
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:08,500
option of having a memorized key
and okay, so do get away from 

585
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:10,600
seed phrases. 
Well, if somebody wants a seed 

586
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,300
phrase, if somebody wants to 
have 12 words that they back up,

587
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:15,900
maybe because they have, you 
know, there's so many crypto 

588
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:17,500
steals sitting around or 
something. 

589
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,000
I think it's fine for that to be
an option. 

590
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,900
But I think a safer Norm is that
usually devices generate keys in

591
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:26,300
a secure Enclave. 
In those keys. 

592
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:29,600
Never leave that device. 
And so usually when you're 

593
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,800
deploying to a new device, 
you're deploying to keys that 

594
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,600
cannot be extracted. 
And so the only way to extract 

595
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,200
value from those is through 
signatures and operations with 

596
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,800
those keys, which while it 
should be rendering in a human 

597
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,900
readable way. 
And so, you know, if all is done

598
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,400
correctly, it's harder to fish 
from wallets that are doing that

599
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,300
because there's not just one 
secret. 

600
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,300
That's may be harder to reason 
about the to steal instead. 

601
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:58,100
You have to get a user to 
hopefully perform an act of sent

602
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:01,700
that they've they've been 
habituated to recognize before 

603
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:04,900
that you can take from them. 
So yeah, I guess I guess in 

604
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:06,500
short. 
I think I think devices should 

605
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:08,200
have their own Keys as much as 
possible. 

606
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:12,100
You should still be able to 
delegate a capabilities to other

607
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:13,300
keys. 
At the end of the day. 

608
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:15,100
This is all built on 
cryptography, right? 

609
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
You're not going to get away 
from there, being private keys 

610
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,400
somewhere. 
I think that we can make them 

611
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,000
less portable. 
I think some people will still 

612
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,600
probably choose to backup to see
phrases, but those will probably

613
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,300
be Pro users. 
Who you know, just know what 

614
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:31,400
they're doing very well. 
The average user is probably 

615
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,000
going to prefer to have 
something maybe like social 

616
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,500
recovery, or maybe maybe a 
custodial back up with just the,

617
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:39,700
you know, limited allowance in 
fraud protection. 

618
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:43,900
Just like Banks do today, except
open-ended it Turing, complete 

619
00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:45,900
and able to connect to Smart 
contracts. 

620
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,400
It's funny. 
So basically had we recorded 

621
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,700
this episode two years ago. 
And I think everyone would 

622
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,600
assume you're making the case 
for smart contract wallet's 

623
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,700
here, right? 
So, tell us about, can you talk 

624
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:06,600
about how the, how the thinking 
has shifted from Smart contract 

625
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,800
wallet, Stewie ways with enhance
capabilities. 

626
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,000
Oh, I think the line is a little
blurry. 

627
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,500
So so I'm talking about just the
general principle, that things 

628
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:22,800
should be delegated bubble. 
And actually so I'll share I've 

629
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,500
I've been working on a little 
solidity library to kind of 

630
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:27,900
demonstrate what I've been what 
I'm talking about. 

631
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:32,000
It's a mix in that any solidity 
Library can inherit from called 

632
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000
delegate. 
Obol and when a, when a contract

633
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,500
has that, it gets a generic 
delegation interface. 

634
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,000
And so now they can delegate any
permission. 

635
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,600
And on with any restrictions to 
any other key. 

636
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,300
And so you can write these 
delegations other keys. 

637
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,900
I think that composes well with 
smart contract, while it's a 

638
00:33:49,908 --> 00:33:52,700
smart contract, while it is good
if you want to get a group of 

639
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:56,100
signers to agree on something 
but then a delegation is good 

640
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,300
for if you want a One agent, 
which could be a group of 

641
00:33:59,308 --> 00:34:03,500
signers to then kind of 
permission another agent, which 

642
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,200
could be either a key or another
group of signers, but some 

643
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,600
limited Authority. 
So you can have a doubt that 

644
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,400
says, okay well, We need you to 
go shopping. 

645
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,100
So, here's a, here's an 
allowance. 

646
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:15,300
Right? 
We don't need to approve the 

647
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:18,199
budget request, you know, can 
you imagine going to the grocery

648
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,400
store and then scanning the 
checkout line? 

649
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,900
And then waiting for your, you 
know, your token holders to vote

650
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:26,400
like no. 
No, of course not. 

651
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,000
You need permission to do 
things. 

652
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:32,300
So interact in a dynamic world. 
And so I think that, I think the

653
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:37,199
Dow's multi cigs, all of these 
higher security constructs are 

654
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,000
going to, I think by necessity 
if they want. 

655
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:43,100
To be dynamic and composable. 
They're going to need to embrace

656
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:48,800
systems where sometimes they 
broaden the reach of their, you 

657
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,500
know, the broadened, the, the 
inclusion of control over their 

658
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,900
digital assets. 
I think this is just normal 

659
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:59,300
essential composability. 
And so I think it works well 

660
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:02,300
together. 
I think that more things should 

661
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:05,500
use. 
Yes, smart contract logic to 

662
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,400
assign Authority and ideally 
every yo, a would have access to

663
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,600
this stuff. 
And actually, one of the reasons

664
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,100
I'm a proponent for EIP, 30 74, 
is it would allow every eoa to 

665
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:19,500
assign a smart contract to be 
able to act on its account. 

666
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,800
And so if you have 30 70 for 
every account could assign off 

667
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,900
chain delegation methods for 
anything, it could do. 

668
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,300
And so you could you almost you 
wouldn't need allowance methods 

669
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:33,000
on contracts anymore. 
And this is basically what the 

670
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,200
delegate herbal Nixon does. 
You don't have to write 

671
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,000
allowance methods anymore 
because it provides a method for

672
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:44,400
Once assigned these off chain 
messages that can imbue its 

673
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,900
recipient with any arbitrary 
power. 

674
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:50,000
They, it uses a smart contract, 
as its enforcer. 

675
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,500
So, yeah, to me, it's just 
another tool in the kind of, I 

676
00:35:53,508 --> 00:35:55,500
guess it's a tool for 
composability. 

677
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:57,800
I see the smart contract. 
Wallet is largely a tool for 

678
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,000
adding restrictions on 
controlling assets. 

679
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:02,400
And I think this is kind of a 
counterbalance we're saying, 

680
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,900
okay, we've learned how to keep 
things Tighter and Tighter. 

681
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,600
Now you need a multisig. 
Now, we need a token vote. 

682
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:12,300
But how do you, how do you now? 
How do you relax a little bit? 

683
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,100
Once you've built up, trust in 
your community? 

684
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,600
How do you? 
Yeah, authorized or Empower more

685
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,200
people to act on your behalf? 
Yeah, I think that's super 

686
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,500
interesting. 
I guess maybe it's a tie it back

687
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:28,300
a bit to that board a story 
where you get permission for 

688
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:31,000
like transferring out all the 
board Apes in this scenario that

689
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,500
you're describing. 
If I delegate this to another 

690
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,500
address like do I have to kind 
of specify which contracts 

691
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:43,400
exactly kind of interact with, 
like, how, how does that look in

692
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,100
practice? 
Is there some standard needed? 

693
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:47,500
That is says like, you know, 
only these contracts. 

694
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:50,200
Like how how will that action 
look or do you always have to 

695
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,500
give a complete control? 
Will I guess that's that's kind 

696
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:55,900
of where we're heading. 
Like how do you make that 

697
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:59,500
possible? 
So there are more fences 

698
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:02,700
basically to choose from where 
you want to put them. 

699
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:04,700
Yeah. 
So the the delegate herbal 

700
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:08,700
system by default to delegation 
method can imbue, so the 

701
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:12,200
recipient with all of your 
Authority on that contract, but 

702
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,200
it has this caveat system where 
you can add as many caveats as 

703
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,600
you want to a delegation. 
And those caveats can restricted

704
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,600
in any way you can imagine. 
So I was making a proof of 

705
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,000
concept for detecting fissures 
and Reporting Fishers. 

706
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,300
I want to make a web of trust. 
I want to permission as many 

707
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:30,800
people to detect fissures and 
report them as possible. 

708
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,500
Right? 
It's obviously a high. 

709
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:34,600
It's a high-value target for 
something like this. 

710
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:39,900
And so so what I realized is 
okay, the fishing registry is 

711
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:43,000
ownable, but I want to share the
ability to report Fisher's not 

712
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,600
the ability to transfer the 
entire registry. 

713
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,400
And so I wrote a caveat, you 
know, it's like three lines of 

714
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,900
solidity that says not the 
ownable. 

715
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:53,700
It's no transferring ownership, 
you know, none of that. 

716
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,600
Just reporting Fishers. 
And now I can sign delegation 

717
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,600
methods where people holding 
these methods note. 

718
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,500
No on change transaction needed?
No gasps. 

719
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,600
I can send them this permission 
and now with no gas that they 

720
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,500
can sign a report and it's a 
meta transaction friendly 

721
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:08,900
things. 
Someone else can support it, 

722
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,200
submit it for them or the the 
even crazier thing is no one can

723
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,100
submit it. 
If it's something like a fishing

724
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:17,600
report. 
You can just kind of 

725
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,600
counterfactually Gossip this 
message and You can look at it 

726
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,700
and they can say, oh, yeah, 
anyone can submit this. 

727
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:27,100
The same way a minor extractable
value person can do they look at

728
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,100
the message say, oh, I could 
call that transaction. 

729
00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:32,700
I would see this as a Fisher and
now we can build this off chain 

730
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,900
registry, where it's all rooted 
in unchain, permissions of the 

731
00:38:35,908 --> 00:38:39,800
contracts enforce it. 
But by looking at the contracts 

732
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,500
and building up these messages, 
that could be submitted to the 

733
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:46,100
chain, we can build up these 
kind of blockchain. 

734
00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:49,800
Parallel databases that, you 
know, can be any size at all. 

735
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,000
The only thing that has to go 
Chain is when revoking your 

736
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,800
permission to someone you say. 
Oh actually their messages 

737
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,300
aren't good. 
Anywhere that has to go to the 

738
00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,600
chain because you're trying to 
make sure nobody trusts their 

739
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,500
message anymore. 
That's where the censorship 

740
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:03,600
resistance of the blockchain 
kind of plays in. 

741
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,200
How far do you think this is in 
the future? 

742
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,900
Well, I mean, I had I have a 
proof of concept of that that 

743
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:16,100
works now, but it doesn't scale 
really great. 

744
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:20,800
Part of the problem is because 
the individual clients usually 

745
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,500
don't have a full blockchain 
node, but you know, I if I make 

746
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:27,500
a note that lets you hold those 
messages, now, you have to be 

747
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:31,300
able to validate them again, to 
validate them against the node. 

748
00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:34,200
That becomes very expensive. 
So we either need to have like, 

749
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,500
see DNS, caching it, or we need 
a good client side lightweight. 

750
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:41,400
Sinclair like laconic, my 
friend. 

751
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:44,400
Rick Dudley is working on this 
kind of caching system that 

752
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,400
builds on another client. 
And now your wallet would be 

753
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,700
able to cash. 
Just the information from the 

754
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,800
contracts that you kind of are 
interested in. 

755
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,100
And it only updates those. 
When those contracts update, you

756
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:56,800
get the block header. 
And are you have a proof that 

757
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,300
your stuff hasn't changed. 
It's going to be so good for 

758
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,200
things like keeping your token. 
Balances up to date. 

759
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,300
Because, you know, today on 
every block update, every single

760
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:08,500
wallet is checking your balance 
on. 

761
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,300
Every token on every network of 
every type and then plus the 

762
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:13,900
ones that they want to Auto 
detect. 

763
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:16,000
So it's the super Network 
intensive thing. 

764
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,000
But but meanwhile, we literally 
the blockchain is designed for 

765
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,300
you to prove that things haven't
changed. 

766
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:23,900
So it's this kind of 
embarrassing. 

767
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,300
Caching opportunity that the 
hopefully Rick is going to solve

768
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:30,000
really soon really need a trick 
because because the whole 

769
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,600
scalability of this scheme that 
I'm describing hinges on the 

770
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,600
people's ability to compare off 
chain messages to the the 

771
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,800
current state of the chain. 
It's funny how it kind of 

772
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:47,100
crosses this gossiping network 
network with you know, the on 

773
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:49,800
Shan State sir. 
Super interesting. 

774
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:51,700
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

775
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:55,400
I mean there's obviously so many
really amazing ways of scaling 

776
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,000
right now and I was thrilled 
when I realized that this 

777
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,200
construction that I was kind of 
building for the sake of user 

778
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,400
consent, when I started 
realizing. 

779
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,400
Oh, it also has scalability 
properties. 

780
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,300
I was just, uh, I was so happy. 
It was like, and but it's funny 

781
00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:14,700
because it maybe shouldn't have 
been a coincidence because 

782
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,900
granting new permissions is 
historically, not a thing that 

783
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:21,700
requires a blockchain, right? 
You can right-click a JPEG you 

784
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:23,600
have permission to view the 
image, right? 

785
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:26,300
The blockchain is always been 
about losing control. 

786
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,900
It's the double spend problem. 
It's that when you give someone 

787
00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:30,800
money, you have to lose access 
to it. 

788
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,100
So for any situation where 
you're growing trust, I think we

789
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,100
can keep things off chain more. 
And so I think that we can 

790
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:39,700
builds wallet patterns and dap 
interaction patterns. 

791
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,400
Patterns that are actually more 
off chain friendly. 

792
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,100
And I think this can mean that 
when users use adapt for the 

793
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:48,300
first time they can actually 
postponed needing a wallet, a 

794
00:41:48,308 --> 00:41:51,500
lot more. 
And actually, my fishing adapt 

795
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:53,500
proof-of-concept. 
I'm calling it Moby mask. 

796
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:57,600
You can go to it at low beam 
ask.com like Moby Dick because 

797
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,300
because we're whales trying to 
take out Fisher's. 

798
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,200
It's invite only because like 
the whole thing is, you have to 

799
00:42:02,207 --> 00:42:03,700
have a delegation signature, 
right? 

800
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:07,200
But, um, but when I was making 
it, I was realizing, oh, you can

801
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,800
redeem, you can get invited and 
you can report Without a wallet.

802
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,600
So I started realizing I had to 
move the wallet connection. 

803
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,500
Further further down. 
I had forked a project that had 

804
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,200
the wallet connection, you know 
that big wall at the beginning 

805
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,300
of the DAP. 
It says like pick a wallet, get 

806
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:23,100
a wallet. 
Look at all the wallets in the 

807
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,700
world, scroll by them, find 
yours. 

808
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:27,400
You know that horrible 
experience. 

809
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:31,500
What I realized is 0 we kind of 
recaptured that Spirit of the 

810
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:34,900
hyperlink like you got a link. 
I give you an invite link. 

811
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,200
You get there and you're going 
and there's literally like do 

812
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,400
you need a backup? 
Well, the back A cup is actually

813
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,300
the invite link that's in your 
text message. 

814
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,200
So you almost don't need a 
backup. 

815
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,500
So when using this system, you 
the only time that you need a 

816
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:52,600
seed phrase is if you, well, if 
you want to delegate to it, so 

817
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,100
you want to back it up like cold
or something, you know, like 

818
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:57,800
obviously there's higher higher 
Stakes, use cases, where you 

819
00:42:57,808 --> 00:43:00,100
would want that. 
But for lightweight things, you 

820
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:02,300
know, you can start to really 
ask which things. 

821
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:03,600
Do you actually need a backup 
for? 

822
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,500
Like, I bet you. 
There's a lot of things that 

823
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:07,500
don't need a backup. 
There's a lot of things we're 

824
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:10,700
just like spreading permission 
saying like hey, Vote on our 

825
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:13,600
proposal, you know, okay, you 
know, that should be it should 

826
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,700
be like that should not need a 
while like most of the time and 

827
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:20,100
and then the wallet is like for 
the meta transaction. 

828
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:21,800
Relayer. 
It's for the pro user that the 

829
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,300
admin the person who's like, you
know, revoking access to the 

830
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:28,000
person who's like, adjudicating 
disputes and stuff. 

831
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:30,900
Those are the people who need to
submit to the blockchain and 

832
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,100
maybe that actually ends up 
being a pro user thing. 

833
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:35,400
And then most users never even 
look at gasps. 

834
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,800
That's that's a hope I have. 
And, you know, so I'm a, I'm 

835
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,200
going to be playing with that. 
Or I hope people try out that 

836
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,900
delegated belief thing, which 
I'll be like publishing right 

837
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:46,400
around. 
The time is this is coming up. 

838
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:49,500
I really want to look into this.
Now. 

839
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,300
The one thing that kind of 
immediately comes comes to mind,

840
00:43:54,300 --> 00:44:00,100
is does this somehow make you 
vulnerable to spammers? 

841
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,300
Because basically, there is no 
longer cost Associated right? 

842
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:09,900
With kind of sending messages. 
Yeah, so the the nodes that 

843
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:12,600
could be vulnerable to scammers 
are spammers in the situation 

844
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,500
would be like the caching nodes.
So if anyone can sign a message,

845
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,000
then you could gossip around 
kind of Fake Messages. 

846
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,300
These messages are validated as 
chains of signatures the. 

847
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,700
So in order to spam them you 
would have to have a chain of 

848
00:44:25,700 --> 00:44:28,200
valid signatures that the node 
hadn't seen before. 

849
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,000
So it has kind of similar spam 
properties to a normal Block 

850
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,500
Chain node. 
Like it's validating a 

851
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:34,900
signature. 
The first thing signature 

852
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:37,300
validation is free, you know, 
like if you don't know. 

853
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,500
At the secret but like you could
kind of spam any watching node 

854
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:43,400
with a bunch of signatures that 
are fake and they're going to 

855
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,600
they're going to check if the 
signatures real, you know, so, 

856
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,700
you know, you can always layer 
some extra anti-spam stuff on 

857
00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:54,500
top of that just rate-limiting 
Banning people who spams, you 

858
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,800
know, once I'm once one IP has 
submitted one bad signature, you

859
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,700
know, then rate limit them 
increase it. 

860
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,000
You could probably borrow like 
Tit for Tat with forgiveness out

861
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,300
of BitTorrent or something like 
that. 

862
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:08,000
But yeah, I don't think it's 
more prone to to problems like 

863
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,000
that than other blockchain type 
nodes. 

864
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:15,500
All right, I guess. 
Maybe tying it back to Madam, 

865
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:18,200
asked a bit from from this, 
right? 

866
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:22,000
I guess how actually does this 
interact with a damask. 

867
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,200
I guess you're saying, we're 
moving this. 

868
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,200
A little bit and then the wallet
comes later. 

869
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,800
Is there some scenario where 
then, finally, you get the sign 

870
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,300
in and you use metal mask? 
Or is this like a completely 

871
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,200
separate layer almost? 
Yeah, I think that they 

872
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,700
interact. 
They have a relationship and and

873
00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:43,200
I think it's nice if it's like, 
can think of it as you can have 

874
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,300
assets on a site and if you're 
not moving them out of that site

875
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:49,500
or going anywhere else, then 
you're probably fine without a 

876
00:45:49,508 --> 00:45:50,700
wallet. 
And in many ways. 

877
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,800
I think the wallet is kind of 
this place where you take that 

878
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,800
your capabilities and you bring 
them to other contexts. 

879
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:00,000
So the thing that's always been 
cool and exciting about a 

880
00:46:00,008 --> 00:46:01,700
theorem. 
It's the composability like, 

881
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:04,500
anyone can, you know, host a 
server with the token? 

882
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,900
But the thing that's really 
crazy is like, oh every single 

883
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:12,400
token isn't public API and 
anyone can build a dowel that 

884
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,500
uses it as its voting rights or 
an exchange that lets you swap 

885
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:17,500
them like any like everything's 
open. 

886
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:20,300
Everything's permissionless. 
So it's that context switching. 

887
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,400
That's like the real power of 
web 3, the like everything is 

888
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,600
permissionless lie. 
Open. 

889
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:30,500
And so, in this pattern what my 
initial impression of it is is 

890
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:34,400
that you could have a lot of 
websites, that and apps that are

891
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,300
not Not needing a while it 
connection until some certain 

892
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:39,900
actions. 
It could be relaying 

893
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:43,000
transactions to the blockchain. 
It could be loading those assets

894
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,600
into your wallet. 
So they're portable. 

895
00:46:46,100 --> 00:46:48,100
It could be 0, loading them into
the wall. 

896
00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:49,900
It can also let you do other 
cool things. 

897
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,700
So I told you that the 
delegation for delegate Dottie. 

898
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,100
It supports arbitrary, caveat. 
So when you delegate to someone,

899
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:00,200
you can have whatever terms you 
want on it. 

900
00:47:00,500 --> 00:47:02,700
Now, I made the movie Mask site 
every day. 

901
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:04,600
Every invite link just has the 
same terms. 

902
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:07,500
Just like it's revocable, you 
know, you can report Fisher's 

903
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:11,700
but I can take it back. 
But if you, if you made this a 

904
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:15,400
standard and added it to a 
wallet, then then in your 

905
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,700
wallet, you could go down your 
assets. 

906
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:20,200
You can click any asset and you 
could say, okay, send them that 

907
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,700
allowance but and then you could
like, have a list of terms, you 

908
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:28,300
could say just, you know, just 
this many tokens just for this 

909
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,500
much time. 
Only for these uses, you know, 

910
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:34,400
only on approved, you know, SEC 
improved investment. 

911
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:37,000
It's or whatever, you know, you 
can have whatever terms you 

912
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,400
want. 
You can just stack them up. 

913
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:43,900
And I think that the wallet is a
nice place to kind of aggregate.

914
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:47,000
These many things into a 
coherent set of possession. 

915
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,300
So digital possession. 
So that now you can go to other 

916
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:53,100
places and you can log in now. 
And, and now when you're logging

917
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:55,700
into sites, you've got all these
like standard. 

918
00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:58,700
Nice ways of defining your own 
terms, you know, normal terms on

919
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:00,800
web to they say, we need these 
permissions. 

920
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,500
It's a rigid thing. 
You get, no say, you hope they 

921
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:07,000
have a logout timer. 
You hope they have to fa in this

922
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,400
scenario when they ask for what 
they need. 

923
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:10,700
Maybe they just need some 
tokens. 

924
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:13,600
So you can do a swap and now you
can add whatever extra terms 

925
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,900
that you want. 
So you actually have a part 

926
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:20,200
you're participating in the 
negotiation of terms, when 

927
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,300
connecting to websites in this 
in this Paradigm. 

928
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,400
And so being able to load these 
kinds of assets of these 

929
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,900
messages into your wallet is the
thing I'm excited to do. 

930
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:32,200
Now. 
I just made a proof of concept, 

931
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,200
you know, solidity contract. 
Who am I to Like tell the 

932
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,800
theorem Community that's the new
standard but that's not how I 

933
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:41,600
that's not how I run things. 
You know, this is part of why 

934
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,100
I'm building a snap system. 
The snap system for metal mask 

935
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:46,900
isn't extensibility system. 
So that new standards like this 

936
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,300
can be validated in the wallet. 
So I actually don't need 

937
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:55,200
permission from the rest of my 
team to try this out and to add 

938
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,500
it into the wallet. 
And other people could take what

939
00:48:57,500 --> 00:48:58,600
I did. 
And they could say, oh, you 

940
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,700
messed up in these ways and they
could make their own standard 

941
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,800
and they could add it into the 
wallet to and so, Really kind of

942
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,100
coming back to the notion that 
meta masks role in the ecosystem

943
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,200
is to enable permissionless 
Innovation, right? 

944
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,600
That's what a theorem is good 
at. 

945
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,200
That's what computers are good 
at is what the web browsers good

946
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,500
at. 
We're just trying to kind of get

947
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:23,400
out of people's way and, you 
know, so I have my theories 

948
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,100
about what I think a secure 
safe, consensual digital 

949
00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:32,200
interaction. 
Looks like, but rather than just

950
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,800
impose them like, you know, I 
could say, So integration is 

951
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,500
coming every few weeks where I 
could say, you know, some 

952
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:39,900
exchanges they have listing 
fees. 

953
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:42,100
They you know, say oh, yeah your
standard gets in for the right 

954
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:44,700
price. 
Now we're taking an approach of 

955
00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:47,600
the wallet allows anything. 
In we're trying to build a tool 

956
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,800
that lets people just be 
creative and and lets people 

957
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,900
move around with the digital 
assets they have, and hopefully 

958
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:57,500
reduce the risk and let them 
kind of cooperate in new 

959
00:49:57,500 --> 00:50:00,300
creative ways. 
I still want to talk about the 

960
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,100
snaps in a little bit. 
But before that, let me kind of 

961
00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:07,300
tie in with what you said. 
So basically if you if you Frey 

962
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:12,700
reframe this a bit, it would 
actually give you a sort of 

963
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,100
fragmented identity system for 
yourself. 

964
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:16,700
Right? 
So basically, you can you kind 

965
00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:23,800
of decide what to share with 
with with which services and 

966
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,500
smart contracts you interact 
with. 

967
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:32,400
So how How do you see the 
connection between meta, mask 

968
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,200
and assess Sovereign identity 
system? 

969
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:42,100
Yeah, I mean, I see it as a form
of self Sovereign identity. 

970
00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:48,600
I guess I have some qualms with 
the, the identity framing of the

971
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,000
issue. 
I think oftentimes identity is 

972
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,200
usually related to somebody 
making a claim about you like, 

973
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:02,000
like, oh, you're a citizen or 
you're not and, and claims are 

974
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,100
nice and interesting for some 
uses, you know, and like I'm 

975
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:06,900
saying, I want to be able to 
report Fisher's. 

976
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:11,100
I think, you know, claims are. 
What I think is really 

977
00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:15,300
critically different about what 
I'm describing is that I'm not 

978
00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,900
just talking about the wallet. 
Holding a bunch of claims about 

979
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:19,800
yourself. 
I'm talking about the wallet 

980
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,400
holding the things that you can 
do and allowing you to extend 

981
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,100
those permissions to other 
things. 

982
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:28,200
So these aren't just claims that
you would trust somebody to do 

983
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:29,400
something. 
Hypothetically. 

984
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,600
These are literal cryptographic 
messages that imbue the 

985
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,700
recipient with that ability. 
And so I think it's got a much 

986
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:39,800
higher Leverage. 
Implication once you connect. 

987
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,000
So, you know, if you connect to 
a site and they want a token 

988
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,200
allowance, that's because they 
want to interact with your 

989
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,400
tokens right now and that's what
makes it powerful. 

990
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,900
We should allow composability 
like that for anything but with 

991
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:55,800
user Sovereign attenuation, that
users should be able to say oh 

992
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,400
but on my terms, right? 
And so I think it's very very 

993
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,600
related. 
I think that the only difference

994
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,800
the only difference that I 
really see between like a 

995
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,200
verifiable credential system and
a No Cap object. 

996
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:12,800
Type system is whether the claim
is rooted in a ability to do 

997
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,300
something. 
It's does. 

998
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:17,100
This does this signature mean? 
You can now just call a function

999
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,000
and make something happen. 
Is there a robot that will 

1000
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,600
literally redeem this signature 
for something? 

1001
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:25,900
Or is it just kind of like a 
claim, you know, like a Clio? 

1002
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,800
Okay, we can have an internet of
claims but like, okay, so people

1003
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,800
are gossiping. 
I guess that's nice. 

1004
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:33,900
But I guess what I'm really in 
this for is I'm trying to build 

1005
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:38,700
scalable social systems and that
means oftentimes spreading 

1006
00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:41,700
access to resources, right? 
We're really talking about. 

1007
00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:44,400
How do we, how do we combine our
resources in a more efficient 

1008
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,700
way? 
How do we fund the best 

1009
00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:49,500
thought-out project? 
How do we, like, kind of path? 

1010
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:53,000
Find to those things? 
And and so for me, creating 

1011
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,600
actual access to resources is 
just a more interesting problem.

1012
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,900
Maybe going into a little bit 
like from the user side. 

1013
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:06,000
Now, you're saying the user has 
like a say, is that really like 

1014
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,700
on the level, or is it what 
you're imagining on the level of

1015
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,900
B, being a web to user like just
normal person going on his 

1016
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:16,300
computer and somehow specifying 
these limits. 

1017
00:53:16,300 --> 00:53:19,100
Like, how do I get the idea? 
What should I be limiting? 

1018
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,500
It's just like, Candace, just be
done by like some developers is 

1019
00:53:23,500 --> 00:53:26,200
this. 
Would there be some interface 

1020
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,500
for you to understand this? 
I sure don't want it to be just 

1021
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:29,200
developer. 
Yeah. 

1022
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,800
Yeah. 
Yeah, the whole point of this 

1023
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,900
stuff, right? 
Is that normal people should be 

1024
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:36,500
able to use it and, you know, of
course, it makes sense to 

1025
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:39,100
developers can do it first 
because we're building these 

1026
00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:42,400
systems on computers. 
So if you speak the language 

1027
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,500
that computers understand, 
you're at an advantage and I 

1028
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:46,700
would just encourage any 
listener. 

1029
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:49,900
If you think that's hard, just 
take a stab at it. 

1030
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:51,700
There's a lot of, a lot of 
online courses. 

1031
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:53,400
Make it a lot easier than you 
ever thought. 

1032
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,700
You know, I wanted on some of 
those Mine, so, I went on 

1033
00:53:55,700 --> 00:53:57,900
scratch first. 
It's made for kids to learn to 

1034
00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:00,700
program. 
I learned on, you know, Udacity 

1035
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:03,700
and Coursera, you know, these 
websites are excellent at 

1036
00:54:03,700 --> 00:54:05,700
teaching you these things. 
So I don't actually think it 

1037
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:09,500
programming is that hard but 
even that said, I think that, 

1038
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:11,900
you know, rather than saying I 
think it should be made. 

1039
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:15,200
So easy that people who don't 
program should be able to do it.

1040
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,000
I might say, I think that 
programming should be made so 

1041
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,000
easy that anyone can do it or 
something in between. 

1042
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,900
There's like that that line 
should be blurred. 

1043
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:25,900
We're talking about computer. 
Forced agreements. 

1044
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:28,500
And we want people to be able to
interact with those agreements. 

1045
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:30,600
So the design space is wide 
open. 

1046
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,400
There's a huge opportunity to 
enable people to participate in 

1047
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,900
digital agreements better. 
It's a huge space and you know, 

1048
00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:42,600
I think the way the wallets work
today and met a mask included is

1049
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,700
where hard coding the types of 
agreements that we can represent

1050
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:48,400
to a user and that's an 
embarrassing State of Affairs. 

1051
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:52,700
You know, that's why things like
I mean, I really I really feel 

1052
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:54,300
terrible about like the Seth 
Green. 

1053
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,900
Because like, you know, yeah, it
said, said approval for all on 

1054
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:01,800
his confirmation, but I don't 
think it said, like the board a 

1055
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,200
piak club. 
Like, I don't think we'd loaded 

1056
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,400
their metadata. 
And, you know, and today that 

1057
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,700
meta data curation is a manual 
task. 

1058
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:12,200
It's like a GitHub repository, 
but obviously what we should be 

1059
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,500
doing is, you know, broadening 
the reach of aggregating, all 

1060
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:18,300
that kind of information and you
know, again it kind of comes 

1061
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:21,700
down to that delegation thing. 
How do we spread the right to 

1062
00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:23,700
populate? 
Our metadata registry more 

1063
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:25,500
broadly, right? 
Because We need to be able to 

1064
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:29,700
protect people in so many use 
cases, you know, and we need 

1065
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:31,300
people to be able to inform each
other. 

1066
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:33,200
We don't want them to have to 
trust us. 

1067
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,200
We want them to be able to like,
declare what they trust, and 

1068
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,500
then get as informed as possible
through those sources. 

1069
00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:40,600
No. 
No, I think this makes total 

1070
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,800
sense. 
I think there's, we're so early,

1071
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:45,800
right? 
So basically, if you look at the

1072
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,600
governance and security space, 
so basically if you don't want 

1073
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,800
to trust one single person then 
basically, how do you how do you

1074
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,600
trust them? 
Hope to make the right 

1075
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,300
decisions. 
How do you I mean, yeah, I think

1076
00:55:58,300 --> 00:56:01,800
this is yeah, it's just the kind
of problem set. 

1077
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:08,800
We're currently facing you you 
talked about snaps earlier and I

1078
00:56:08,808 --> 00:56:12,400
would like to cover that it can 
you give us an intro on snaps? 

1079
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,800
Yes, snaps is an extensibility 
system for the metal mask 

1080
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,300
wallet. 
There are a lot of Dimensions to

1081
00:56:21,300 --> 00:56:24,600
the wallet where we found 
ourselves being Gatekeepers 

1082
00:56:24,700 --> 00:56:26,600
inadvertently. 
We didn't try to be Gatekeepers.

1083
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:29,600
We just realized that everybody 
wants to have their Network. 

1084
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:31,300
Everyone wants to add their 
token. 

1085
00:56:31,700 --> 00:56:35,600
Everyone wants to add there, you
know, fraudulent, transaction 

1086
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,600
detection system. 
Everybody wants to add their new

1087
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,600
Block Chain, you know, their new
VIP method for better data, log 

1088
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,400
ins, you know, All these 
Dimensions where we were just 

1089
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:51,700
finding ourselves, you know us 
against, you know, of a large 

1090
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:54,300
group of very passionate and 
intelligent people. 

1091
00:56:54,700 --> 00:56:57,000
And we don't want to, you know, 
we don't want to be arguing 

1092
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,800
against a large group of 
intelligent passionate people. 

1093
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,100
That's the worst. 
We want to get the hell out of 

1094
00:57:02,100 --> 00:57:04,600
their way. 
We want to let them just like 

1095
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,800
ideally, you know, it's like I 
think people get held up on the 

1096
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,900
open source component. 
A little bit of people are like,

1097
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,700
oh, yeah, you know, if you were 
just open source, somebody would

1098
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:14,400
Fork it they'd make a better 
wallet. 

1099
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:17,200
Well, the truth is you for Kit. 
You're going to add the one 

1100
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,200
feature you have in mind. 
You're not going to add all the 

1101
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,400
features that every user wants. 
And so I think that the heart of

1102
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,200
like actual like 
community-driven creativity is 

1103
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,100
more about composability. 
It's all about the same way. 

1104
00:57:30,100 --> 00:57:32,300
Aetherium is all about the 
contracts, being able to 

1105
00:57:32,308 --> 00:57:35,300
interact with each other. 
I think that, you know, the 

1106
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:40,000
wallet is kind of your personal 
smart contract space where you 

1107
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,600
declare, what you care about. 
These are your, these are your 

1108
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:44,400
assets. 
These are the things. 

1109
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:49,300
Willing to connect to and trust.
And so snaps was an answer to, 

1110
00:57:49,300 --> 00:57:50,800
how do we bring in all this 
Innovation? 

1111
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,500
How do we get out of the way and
let people contribute to wallet,

1112
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:57,800
Evolution at their speed of 
their creativity, not at the 

1113
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:04,000
speed of our review process. 
And so, yeah, we did a lot of 

1114
00:58:04,008 --> 00:58:06,800
research on kind of secure code 
confinement and there's 

1115
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:08,800
obviously a lot of interesting 
things on that. 

1116
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,500
It led us in particular to meet 
the Agora folks who are working 

1117
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:15,400
on. 
Scripts confinement. 

1118
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,900
And so they actually have it's 
basically a JavaScript function 

1119
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:22,900
that allows you to evaluate code
in a confined context. 

1120
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:25,800
So, you know, if you're a, if 
you know, JavaScript, you know, 

1121
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,400
the word eval is like evil 
because you call it and then the

1122
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,900
the string that you passed to, 
it can do anything and that's 

1123
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:33,700
terrible. 
And so you should never call 

1124
00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:35,800
eval. 
But the gork folks made this 

1125
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,500
thing called a compartment where
you can now call eval but it 

1126
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:41,600
only has access to the things 
you give it. 

1127
00:58:41,900 --> 00:58:44,400
And so it's this kind of local 
code version. 

1128
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,000
Kind of what I'm talking about. 
When I talk about connecting to 

1129
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,500
daps you, you can now run some 
local JavaScript and give it 

1130
00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:53,400
just the permissions that you 
want and so very much like the 

1131
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,400
way you connect to add app and 
you give it some, you know, 

1132
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,100
blockchain based permissions. 
Now we can run some local wallet

1133
00:59:00,100 --> 00:59:02,700
extensions and give them some 
local wallet permissions. 

1134
00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:07,600
Like the permission to add a new
token type to your, to, your 

1135
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,600
wallet, or a new account type. 
And so, we've got a prototype 

1136
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,400
snaps for adding a variety of 
blockchains to met a mask. 

1137
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,900
For adding contract accounts to 
metal mask, for adding new 

1138
00:59:17,900 --> 00:59:21,900
fishing detection. 
There's a password manager. 

1139
00:59:21,900 --> 00:59:26,400
One is, I was starting to 
prototype a new signature 

1140
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,700
standard, you know, there's the 
IP 712. 

1141
00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:31,900
But there's a fifth ver, Trevor 
revision, and rather than pull 

1142
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:34,700
requested to metal mask. 
I just prototyped it in a snap, 

1143
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:39,300
you know, it kind of opens up 
the space of wallet Innovation, 

1144
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,400
outside of a standards process. 
I think standards processes are 

1145
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,600
not permit. 
This Innovation, you know, right

1146
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,400
now there's a little bit of a 
movement to like. 

1147
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,400
Hey, all the while it should 
make standards together. 

1148
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,700
And don't get me wrong. 
There are some things where we 

1149
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:55,200
should just do it consistently, 
so we can interface and 

1150
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,600
interoperate better. 
But, you know, it's better to me

1151
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,100
than standards is spaces where 
people don't need permission, 

1152
01:00:01,900 --> 01:00:04,600
you know, maybe this is just me 
because like I'd wanted to get 

1153
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,600
into entertainment for a while, 
you know, and like, if you ever 

1154
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,300
tried to get into entertainment,
well, at least, you know, when I

1155
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:13,600
was doing it, it was like, oh 
the Hollywood, you know, like 

1156
01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:16,900
German or whatever, obviously, 
it's different now with 

1157
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:18,600
podcasting and YouTube and 
things. 

1158
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:22,000
But, you know, whenever there's 
a situation where you have to 

1159
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,400
ask permission or you have to 
get other, you have to convince 

1160
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,300
other people just to do it. 
Just feels like the wrong way to

1161
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:30,800
me. 
Like I really care about 

1162
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,800
building tools where people can 
just have ideas and run with 

1163
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,100
them and you know in computers 
are great for that computers. 

1164
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:40,200
But as long as you build Those 
computer systems in a way that 

1165
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,200
are friendly to in a gratian and
that's kind of what 

1166
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,800
extensibility is and I think 
snaps is incredible for metal 

1167
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,400
mask, but I actually think 
long-term every application will

1168
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,100
be extensible and it won't be 
like you're an extension on one 

1169
01:00:54,100 --> 01:00:56,300
other thing. 
It'll be like these things work 

1170
01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:58,800
together. 
It'll be more just collaborative

1171
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,000
the way that contracts are on 
ethereum. 

1172
01:01:03,100 --> 01:01:06,300
Yeah, I do think it's like a 
nice extension of that etherium 

1173
01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:09,800
idea of like, you know, 
permissionless Innovation and 

1174
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,000
just taking it on this wanted 
level. 

1175
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,700
And I also like, where you said,
okay general-purpose wallet 

1176
01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:16,500
either wallets are kind of 
building things specific for the

1177
01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:18,300
use case. 
I think that's a frustration for

1178
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:22,100
a lot of people that it's like, 
oh, when that's metal mask, like

1179
01:01:22,100 --> 01:01:24,800
this new network that, and why 
is it so hard to switch Network,

1180
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,100
I guess, snaps wood. 
As I understand, try to address 

1181
01:01:28,100 --> 01:01:29,400
that but on the level that, 
yeah. 

1182
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,900
I know, everyone can add that. 
But now I guess my question 

1183
01:01:31,900 --> 01:01:36,100
would be Okay, we have all these
people that can extend it in a 

1184
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:38,700
way for a user. 
How does it actually look? 

1185
01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:40,400
Do I have to like choose which 
extension? 

1186
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,300
I want to support from these 
snaps or is like there's some 

1187
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:50,000
automated way or how does that? 
Actually, from the user sides 

1188
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,400
work. 
There's a particular pattern 

1189
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,500
that I think is going to be more
and more important and it's like

1190
01:01:57,500 --> 01:02:01,100
the process of adding something 
to your wallet today. 

1191
01:02:01,100 --> 01:02:05,300
There's kind of a norm of Auto 
detecting tokens, you know, I 

1192
01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:08,800
recently heard a wallet 
advertisement that said it 

1193
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,400
detects all of your nft s, for 
example, detecting all of your 

1194
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,500
ft's to me scares the crap out 
of me, partly. 

1195
01:02:15,500 --> 01:02:19,100
Because we know that fissures 
will do are droplet attacks. 

1196
01:02:19,100 --> 01:02:21,400
And so the airdrop you something
that looks valuable, but when 

1197
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,900
you try to And it will give you 
an error message. 

1198
01:02:23,900 --> 01:02:26,700
That's crafted to direct you to 
a phishing page things like 

1199
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:28,500
that. 
Not to mention, there's forms of

1200
01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:33,300
abuse, like, are dropping people
lewd photos, you know, and, and 

1201
01:02:33,300 --> 01:02:36,000
so, I actually think that, you 
know, it's a lot like an email 

1202
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,000
address where you don't actually
want it to be public for anyone 

1203
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,900
to just add anything to your 
wallet. 

1204
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,200
So, I think that we have to 
eventually adopt Norms, where 

1205
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,100
people are consensually adding 
assets to their wallet, and I 

1206
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:52,900
think that that addition can 
come from anywhere So, for 

1207
01:02:52,900 --> 01:02:58,000
example today, meta mask has VIP
747 and it's called The Watch 

1208
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,200
asset. 
So a website can say, hey care 

1209
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,200
about my token, you know, so I 
have a personal token called 

1210
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:08,400
dank dank coin, you know. 
Nobody has, I've given it out to

1211
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,700
like 20 people, you know, it's a
joke point, but you know, I'm 

1212
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:15,300
not going to add it to Some 
central registry where all metal

1213
01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:18,500
mask users have to see it. 
That's that would be ridiculous 

1214
01:03:18,500 --> 01:03:21,600
in a waste of network bandwidth.
But what we do have we have an 

1215
01:03:21,900 --> 01:03:23,700
Method. 
Where, if somebody goes to my 

1216
01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:26,900
website, they can press the add 
to my wallet button and then a 

1217
01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:29,400
little pop-up appears. 
And if and it says, do you want 

1218
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,200
to add that to your wallet? 
And if the user agrees, now 

1219
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,100
their wallet will load. 
It has my eye, my face as the 

1220
01:03:35,107 --> 01:03:39,000
icon, you know, and and they can
use it snaps work. 

1221
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,000
Very similarly to that, when 
you're on a website that wants 

1222
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,200
to interact with, let's say 
another Block Chain or another 

1223
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,000
token sander that your wallet 
doesn't know about. 

1224
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:51,900
They'll just say, hey to 
integrate to interact with this.

1225
01:03:51,900 --> 01:03:54,500
This we recommend you have this 
governance module in your 

1226
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:57,000
wallet. 
And you say, okay and you know, 

1227
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,600
we're going to we're going to 
have a couple tears of security.

1228
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,000
Obviously we're going to have 
like indications of who's 

1229
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,100
certified it. 
We're going to have a very 

1230
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:08,400
responsive kind of revocation 
and you know, fish are flagging 

1231
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,000
system and then the user is 
going to have the list of 

1232
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,700
permissions it needs, you know, 
the snap may need Network. 

1233
01:04:13,900 --> 01:04:17,600
It may need a private key of its
own, you know, some snaps may 

1234
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,500
even need a private key that's 
dedicated to a given protocol. 

1235
01:04:20,500 --> 01:04:23,600
Like if Making another etherium 
sign or snap. 

1236
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,900
It might need your theorem keys.
And so we're going to add. 

1237
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,700
We have friction on that to like
make sure people are extra sure.

1238
01:04:29,700 --> 01:04:32,200
But ultimately. 
Yeah, there's a there's a part 

1239
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,200
of an interacting with a new 
entity that wants to rely on 

1240
01:04:37,100 --> 01:04:38,800
some new kind of asset where 
they're going to say. 

1241
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,600
Hey you need this to work with 
us. 

1242
01:04:40,900 --> 01:04:42,500
Once you have it though. 
You don't think about it 

1243
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:45,000
anymore. 
So it's a little bit like micro 

1244
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,200
wallet on boardings, you know, 
you can postpone them as late as

1245
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,100
you want. 
But as you use web three more 

1246
01:04:51,100 --> 01:04:53,500
and more, your wall. 
It will come to represent kind 

1247
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:57,600
of the places you go and the 
ledgers that you care about and 

1248
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,400
the assets that you track, and 
it'll just kind of let you use 

1249
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,500
those. 
And so it'll be a lightweight 

1250
01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:05,600
wallet by default, but it'll be 
a dynamic wallet that can become

1251
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,600
what you needed to be. 
Oh, I'm sure we'll see a lot of 

1252
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,700
innovation on that one to be 
seen in terms of visibility and 

1253
01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:18,400
even reputation systems, right? 
So basically, yeah, I want to 

1254
01:05:18,408 --> 01:05:24,100
cover one last topic when token 
when David an ha ha ha. 

1255
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,500
Okay. 
Yeah, so we've been exploring 

1256
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:30,000
making a grants. 
Do you know? 

1257
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,900
We want there's a lot of things 
that we'd love to fund and you 

1258
01:05:32,900 --> 01:05:35,600
know, we've got a revenue model 
that's turning. 

1259
01:05:35,900 --> 01:05:38,300
So we we want to give some back 
to the community. 

1260
01:05:38,300 --> 01:05:41,900
So we are exploring how we might
run, something like that. 

1261
01:05:42,500 --> 01:05:45,600
If we do it, I would, I would 
stress. 

1262
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,000
We're not exploring distribution
mechanics, that could be gamed, 

1263
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:53,400
we would start with small groups
of trusted people and we would 

1264
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,700
probably take an iterative 
approach similar to what 

1265
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:58,500
optimism is done, where, you 
know, distribution can be 

1266
01:05:58,500 --> 01:06:00,800
continuous. 
And I think that more 

1267
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:05,000
communities should embrace 
continuous, you know, continuous

1268
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,100
recognition of community and A 
judgment and I don't think 

1269
01:06:08,100 --> 01:06:10,200
things like that. 
Need to be a one-time event. 

1270
01:06:11,300 --> 01:06:13,900
But but, you know, we're 
exploring that and, you know, 

1271
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,600
grants is one application. 
Obviously, we have lots of ideas

1272
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,000
of what tokens can be used for 
in the truth is they can be used

1273
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,600
for a million different things. 
And I also think people should 

1274
01:06:24,700 --> 01:06:27,300
kind of get off the idea that 
tokens need to be a singular 

1275
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:28,400
great thing. 
Right? 

1276
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,300
Just because somebody makes a 
grand style doesn't mean they 

1277
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:32,700
never have another thing. 
They want to make. 

1278
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,500
I saw a whole rekey portal that.
Did a review of metal mask. 

1279
01:06:36,700 --> 01:06:40,100
They were criticizing an idea. 
I had once about, Julia 

1280
01:06:40,100 --> 01:06:42,800
tokenizing or prioritization 
backlog. 

1281
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,200
Just wanted to let our team kind
of help weigh on our backlog. 

1282
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,900
You know, we got a big backlog 
but they're like, they're like, 

1283
01:06:48,900 --> 01:06:51,400
oh this is not of. 
Is this the most valuable thing 

1284
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:54,000
they could do is like get off 
that we can have tokens about it

1285
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,600
as many things as we want and 
it's all good, you know, but but

1286
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,400
you know, I think the key thing 
is we're never going to like 

1287
01:07:02,500 --> 01:07:06,900
watch out for the scam Bots. 
I'm so apprehensive about People

1288
01:07:06,900 --> 01:07:10,200
start speculating that we have a
token coming because, you know, 

1289
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,900
they're like, oh well now 
they're suddenly looking out for

1290
01:07:12,900 --> 01:07:16,300
somebody saying hey, there's a 
here, redeem your airdrop. 

1291
01:07:16,300 --> 01:07:19,500
Now, I promise you. 
If you ever have access to 

1292
01:07:19,500 --> 01:07:22,600
metamath tokens, it will not be 
because somebody replied you on 

1293
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,300
Twitter telling you to follow a 
link. 

1294
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,300
Don't follow links. 
I mean for crying out loud, if 

1295
01:07:27,308 --> 01:07:29,800
you're a metal mask user you 
might think that we'd have like 

1296
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:31,600
a way of getting in touch with 
you, right? 

1297
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,200
So probably just like go to the 
wallet as your source of 

1298
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,800
information about Metal mask. 
And that goes for support, as 

1299
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,600
well as any any other things 
like that. 

1300
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,300
So, if you, if you ever need 
support with any product, really

1301
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:46,300
start in that product interface,
don't go search in Twitter. 

1302
01:07:46,300 --> 01:07:50,200
Don't go searching telegram. 
Who does no moderation search in

1303
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,300
the product start with your root
of trust. 

1304
01:07:52,300 --> 01:07:53,200
What's the thing? 
You trust? 

1305
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:55,100
Most on that thing? 
It's probably the product maker 

1306
01:07:55,100 --> 01:07:58,400
themselves go from there. 
So, stay safe out there. 

1307
01:07:58,900 --> 01:08:01,700
We'll play around with tokens 
because we want to play around 

1308
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:05,100
with the whole ecosystem more. 
But, you know, please donut, 

1309
01:08:05,100 --> 01:08:10,100
don't hinge your hopes and Is on
on the prospects of flipping it 

1310
01:08:10,100 --> 01:08:13,500
or something. 
Yeah, I think that's, that's a 

1311
01:08:13,508 --> 01:08:16,600
great way to wrap it up with the
totem. 

1312
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,899
Then thank you so much for 
coming on. 

1313
01:08:18,899 --> 01:08:22,300
It was like super informative. 
It took like a way different 

1314
01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:23,899
turn that I personally expected 
it. 

1315
01:08:23,899 --> 01:08:27,500
I learned a lot and I hope our 
listeners to and we're, we're 

1316
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:32,200
looking forward to seeing all 
these new new things coming from

1317
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,899
from Adam asked and what people 
will build with it. 

1318
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:39,800
Then where can people come and 
learn about meta mask. 

1319
01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:45,600
Well, we have a Discord Channel 
run by consensus, and we have a 

1320
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:49,100
community Forum which is a, you 
know, you can vote on features 

1321
01:08:49,100 --> 01:08:51,200
there. 
You can also follow us on 

1322
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:53,600
Twitter. 
We've got, you know, a fairly 

1323
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,100
active sort of thing. 
You can you can add us but be 

1324
01:08:56,100 --> 01:08:59,700
aware that there will be some 
scam reply Bots, we are working 

1325
01:08:59,700 --> 01:09:02,700
on it. 
But you know, if anybody claims 

1326
01:09:02,700 --> 01:09:04,899
to be giving support publicly 
don't listen to them. 

1327
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,700
Yeah, so you can ping us on any 
of those would be fine. 

1328
01:09:09,300 --> 01:09:11,500
The community not metamath 
videos are Four. 

1329
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:14,700
Perfect. 
Thank you Dan. 

1330
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:17,800
It was a pleasure. 
Thank you so much for coming on.

1331
01:09:18,300 --> 01:09:19,500
Well, thanks so much for having 
me. 

1332
01:09:21,700 --> 01:09:23,500
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1333
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:25,399
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1334
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,700
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1335
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,800
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1336
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,000
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1337
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,200
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast. 

1338
01:09:37,700 --> 01:09:40,600
Go to epicenter, .t V /, 
subscribe for a full list of 

1339
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,200
places where you can watch and 
listen, while you're there, be 

1340
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:44,399
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newsletter. 

1341
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So you get new episodes in your 
inbox as they're released if you

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01:09:48,100 --> 01:09:51,100
want to interact with us guests 
or other podcast listeners, you 

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01:09:51,100 --> 01:09:54,400
can On Twitter and please leave 
us a review on iTunes helps 

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01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,400
people find the show and we're 
always happy to read them with. 

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01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,000
Thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.