This is epicenter episode 257 with guests.
Kevin iwaki. This episode of epicenter is
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Hi, welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the
Technologies projects and starts driving decentralisation and the
global blockchain Revolution. My name is Sebastian with you
and my name is Philip Rica ants. And today on the show, we have
Kevin a walkie Kevin's. The founder of real interesting
project called get coin. That is creating a two-sided
Market between project funders and so basically people who work
on open source projects and contributors who who pick up
Bounty requests and it's real interesting project where there
is this sort of its All incentive mechanisms are aligned
between, you know, people who need bounties picked up for
their open source projects and people who are willing to come
up and make a bit of money while they're at it.
So, what did you think of the interview for Lika?
I thought it actually integrates the project actually integrates
into the existing ecosystem really nicely.
It's one of the buildings, blocks that that was missing.
I really enjoyed the interview. Yeah, well I thought was
fascinating to is that like they built this and bootstrapped it
and haven't done an IC o----? I mean it's just like it's a
very simple platform. In fact, I mean we'll get into
this in turn the show but the like they haven't yet figured
out their business model but there's you know, this guy
boostrap this this project and now a bunch of projects are
using it for bounties. So yeah.
It's quite interesting. Yeah.
That's actually quite Quite a good thing.
And I mean, I think this has been lost a little bit in the in
the blockchain word building something first making sure who
acts and then selling it later so it was very refreshing.
Yeah, it does, it does work because there's like quite a few
projects that build on and in fact, so kenosis did use it.
I think you mentioned during a hackathon, can you talk about
that? Yeah.
So basically, there was East Berlin that we had here in been
in a couple of weeks ago and we actually Used Bitcoin to
actually roll out the bounties to the developers who partook in
the hackathon, and at what work nicely.
So yeah, kudos to get kind great.
Yeah, so we'll get to the interview in just a second
first. I just wanted to mention that we
will be at web three Summit in Berlin, that is next week.
It is Monday Tuesday and Wednesday, I believe and we're
also going to be at Defcon 3 so both Brian.
Ryan and myself. Oh, and Sonny will also be a
dick on Defcon three diff gone for things are moving so fast
already. Yeah.
So we'll all be at Defcon 4 so you can come say hi to us there
and we'll be glad to see you. Yeah, without further delay.
Here's here's Kevin. Noah a walkie of get coin.
Hi. So we're here with Kevin iwaki.
Who is founder of get coin? Kevin, thank you for coming on
the podcast. Thanks so much for having me.
So before we get started, what you tell us a bit about your
background, you came from software development.
What got you involved and interested in crypto currencies
and ethereum Yeah. So I have a degree in computer
science from University of Delaware in 2006 and I've sort
of always been interested in entrepreneurship and technology
and and how I could how I can beat a path for myself, that was
outside of outside of corporate America and not sort of a
traditional career path. And I think that that's always
been driven by my intellectual curiosity and in in the
evolution of the web and futurism and in cypherpunk
ideas. So I spent the first two years
of my career in Corporate America and absolutely hated.
It found an opportunity to move out to Colorado, where I was the
CTO of an online-dating. Startup of all things for about
five years. And that was a great experience
that sort of threw me in the deep end of technology and
Entrepreneurship. I've Around between technology
startups for the last 10 or 12 years and was sort of captured
in 2011, by the Bitcoin white paper.
And the idea of non-state money, the idea that money could be a
native protocol of the internet, but it wasn't until the etherium
whitepaper more around 2014 2015, that I really got into the
idea of programmable money and was really, it was conversation
As with my friend Piper Miriam, who's now a python team leader
at the etherium foundation that really got me into the idea of
programmable money and what if we could program our values into
our money and that money those values?
And those smart contracts were immutable what kind of world
what kind of better worlds that that could we create and so sort
of just sort of really curious about exploring those themes on
today's show and in general and professionally Awesome.
I mean I definitely can relate reading the theorem white paper
was also quite eye-opening for me and sort of for us in general
here, on the podcast before we get in to get coin and go more
in-depth here. I'm curious what was the single
most single most important lesson you learned while working
for a dating company was the most single more in most
important question that I learned, you said, you learned a
lot of things but what's your takeaway from Working couple of
years of the dating company. I think liquidity matters.
We we ran an online, dating some company for five years and I
think that we had 90% men on our platform and only 10% women.
It created a real liquidity problem for supply and demand
problem in the double sided Market.
That was a was a dating site. I think that's probably the case
for a lot of dating sites. If you just look under the look
Under the hood. Yeah.
Under the hood.
Cool. And so you said your transition
out of that and into into blockchain.
So as a developer and working on open source projects what did
you see as some of the fundamental issues there and
some of the fundamental problems in open source development.
Yeah so been an entrepreneur and software engineer for pretty
much since I since I joined that textures company in 2008.
So about Ten years now. And the one thing I noticed was
that everything that I was doing and all of my cohorts we're
doing is built off of Open Source, web servers and
database, servers and Technology.
But there's no the value that's created by open source.
Technology is in the billions of dollars, but the value that's
captured by it is, is much, much less than that.
And it just seems like a real incentive problem that you can
create billions of dollars of economic output.
But with with open source software, but you can't capture
any of that. So I am interested in exploring
how to solve that Gap and I think that programmable money
might be a useful tool in solving that problem Cliff.
So what then you started get coin.
Can you explain to us what Bitcoin is and how it dresses
that problem? Yeah, sure happily.
So get coin is not a token. We have not decided our business
model yet and there's no Ico or no token.
Get coin is a place where you can get coins if you're a
software engineer. So it's a double sided Market
where people who want to fund development specifically,
open-source software development can put an ear, see 20, which is
the ethereum token. Standard bounty on any GitHub
issue, GitHub issues being where people check track change
requests, whether they're bug requests or feature requests on
GitHub and that will be paid out when that GitHub issue is closed
to date. We've done about two thousand.
Actions between about 200 funders and 600 coders all
across the world. And so our mission is to support
open source, software to grow and sustain open source,
software and bounties is just sort of the first, the first act
in how we're going to grow and sustain open source software,
and allow software developers to capture some of that value that
open-source software creates in the world.
Quit quit. Can you describe how the user
experience is both as a funder and as a contributor?
Because they differ from each other, right?
Yeah, that's right. So, if you go to get coin .ko, /
new, you will see our funder onboarding experience.
And, basically, the way it works, is that if you have a
GitHub issue, you can paste that into the GitHub issue, URL field
on that form. And then, We'll pull in a title,
a description of that issue, a bunch of keywords and then you
can basically tag that Bounty with some metadata and attached
etherium or any ear. See 20 token to that to That
Bouncy. And when you click submit,
you'll be asked to confirm the submission of that bounty to get
coin in the staking of those tokens to that Bounty.
Once the transaction clears, your issue will be posted on the
GitHub issue Explorer, which is the repository of Open work on
on get coin. And it will also be emailed out
to our community of 11,000 software developers who are
looking to contribute to open source software.
So we found that the combination of the tooling with trustless
Bounty posting and then also the the community that's watching
that tooling has been a killer app for funders to instantly add
software developers to their project and as we know in the
blockchain world software, Our developers are pretty important.
Addition to to any project. And, you know, we're happy to be
sort of a recruiter for software development projects in that
respect and that's why people have put over 300,000 dollars
worth of bounties on get coin to reach our audience of 11,000
software developers. So and then to answer the second
part of your question. If you are a coder on get coin,
you can go to the get coin issue, Explorer, or just keep an
eye on your inbox. And if there is a issue that
matches your skill set and you have the time and gumption to
turn around that issue, you can click a button called start
work, which basically is a signal to the rest of the
network that I'm working on this.
Please don't work over top of me.
And then typically, because software development is sort of
an abstract thing, there's a little bit of back and forth
that happens with the funder or the repo maintainer on the
GitHub issue. And we think that at GitHub is
an excellent collaboration layer for open-source software.
We are not in the business of Reinventing the wheel.
We're just adding in incentivization layer on top of
github's collaboration layer and so we put a lot of the
collaboration type stuff over on the GitHub thread because it's
working really well, and that's where open source software is
hosted. You'll probably go back and
forth with the funder a couple of times about what they meant
about specific parts of the scope.
You will turn around a pull request, which is a Request for
that piece of software. And then when you have when
you're ready to attest, that you have finished with the work, you
will press a button called submit work, which is basically
a way of saying here is my my my aetherium address.
Please pay me for the work that I've done.
And then once the funder is happy with that, work, they will
submit the payment to you and that's sort of the life cycle of
a get coin Bounty. What we found is that this is a
low-risk way for coders and people who would hire them.
Them to work together. And often times people take
their relationship off, get coin after they found someone who can
provide value to to their project and vice versa.
So are very happy to have facilitated over a dozen
full-time, people working in the space that otherwise would not
have built those relationships. So it's a that's the one metric
that I'm most proud of is lives changed people who are now
working professionally in the Block Chain space and otherwise
wouldn't be and yeah that's the user that's you.
Their experience and get Cohen on both sides of the market.
It just takes it is if I just sort of recap here as a as a
project maintainer, let's say maintain open source project and
there are those issues coming in.
So I could be creating these issues these issues myself.
My team could be submitting these issues.
Users could be submitting these issues as well.
They show up in GitHub, this is typically, what people are used
to. When using GitHub, is the You
see issues tool there. And then usually, there's
there's some sort of curation of issues.
So, issues might get tagged as like a bug, a feature, like a
critical security patch or something of that nature.
Then as the software maintainer as a project maintainer, or I
guess the funder, I put that issue up on on, get coin that
creates sort of The the call to the market to call upon
developers to address this issue on the other side of the market
developers or contributors can pick up these issues, I guess
when they're picked up there. Sort of no longer available to
the market while that person is working on them and when they're
so you. And there might be some
back-and-forth that makes sense. Then when the issue has been
resolved, the pull request gets sent on GitHub and the project
maintainer. Then when he approves it, the
get coin automatically makes the payment which I forgot to
mention, which is sort of an escrow, I guess while the issues
being worked on, is that sort of summarizes correctly.
Yeah, that's pretty much the long and short of it.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, so if looking at this, I can see a couple things I want
to address. So the first would be with
regards to just like let me get get get Hub itself, seems pretty
well placed to implement the system.
I mean, if GitHub wanted to implement some sort of a bug
Bounty reward system, I mean it would be pretty trivial for them
to implement that, you know, implement it into the issues.
Form like a fun project maintainer can put up a bounty
that money gets held in escrow by get by GitHub.
And then when the issue gets resolved, you know, the payment
gets made, they could even, you know, handle dispute resolution
this sort of thing. I mean like these types of
things exist. You know if you just look at
Fiverr or any type of like gig economy platform, these things
exist. Why do you think this is never
been part of GitHub? You know, business model to
implement this sort of thing. Why do you think they've not
went down that path? It seems like like a pretty easy
thing for them to do. You know, it's funny.
It's apropos that you're asking me this question right now while
I'm in San Francisco. I'm actually from Colorado, but
I'm out in San Francisco because we're sponsoring GitHub Universe
right now. We think that they've built an
excellent collaboration layer and our aim is to be the
incentivization layer that's built on top of that
collaboration layer and to your point, this idea has been tried
before. I think that for the first three
months of when I started get coin, every hackathon I went to
A couple of software Engineers or like, why don't we combine
open source and blockchain and, you know, see what happens.
But, you know, there's a certain amount of I think of a lead that
get coins built up because of my backgrounds, 10 years of doing
Tech startups and experience with with software engineering,
that that I think has created some momentum for us, in the
Brand's category and also in marketing and you know, we'll
get into it later, but we're backed by consensus, which is
the largest Blockchain accelerator in the world.
So I think we've reached achieved a scale in our user
experience in the liquidity of the pool of software developers
on get coin. That's, that's, that's sort of
approaching a competitive Advantage.
But the thing that I'll say is that there there is a people
have noted this this incentive problem in open source, software
in the past, namely that it's easy to create value.
But it's hard to capture value. The fundamental, Friends with
get coin relative to Let's Bounty sources.
For example, a web to version of get coin and they've been around
for about 10 years. The reason why get coin has a
fundamental competitive advantages because there's
actually funding available for open source software in
blockchain. The combined market cap of all
these cryptocurrencies is in the hundreds of billions of dollars
in. This is even in a bear market
and everyone's chasing too few developers to get attention to
their project. So there's there's a fundamental
shift in the way. Oi software development is being
funded associated with blockchain and I think that
we're probably the first, the, the first company that's that's
that's figured out how to capitalize on that and create a
liquid market for for software bounties.
And, you know, just to bring it back to the to the GitHub
question, we would absolutely love to partner with them and to
bake our features more into the user interface.
So you know, we'll see what happens with our sponsorship of
GitHub universe. But Looking to exit the
blockchain echo chamber and to bring the goodness of software
development bounties and funding to the broader open-source
community. You know, the Dutch have given
us so much orange. Carrots, Bluetooth, artificial
hearts, even Donuts were invented by Dutch people, but
they also gave us Dutch auctions, which, as it turns out
are great for decentralized. Exchanges Dutch, X is a
decentralized trading protocol for ERC 20 tokens and it's
invented designed and built by kenosis current order book based
exchanges. Whether centralized or
decentralized have a couple of issues, Miners and exchanges can
FrontRunner trade when they step in front of a large order to
gain an economic Advantage. Not not to mention issues with
securing funds, High listing fees, lack of liquidity and
pricing efficiencies. The Dutch checks.
Exchange platform uses a Dutch auction mechanism to determine
the fair value for a token and participants in a trade are
encouraged to reveal their true willingness to pay, which
eliminates front running as a permissionless on chain
protocol. It's useful for Bots and other
smart contracts needing to exchange tokens and Dutch X also
acts as an oracle for dash, requiring a price feed.
So to learn more, check out the documentation at epicenter dot
TV, / THX, Smart contracts are live on a theorem a net.
So you can start building today we'd like to thank gnosis and
checks for their support of epicenter will maybe get into
this a bit later and to sort of like the the usage of the
platform but it sounds like what you're saying that most of the
projects and I guess it doesn't make sense.
The most of the projects that are on the marketplace are
blockchain related projects. Are you seeing any sort of
adoption from web to projects other open source?
Facts. No, not really.
I think that 95% of the projects that we've, that we've seen on
the platform are blockchain based projects.
And I think that that's a, that's, that's sort of a result
of where our efforts have been and where we are, have been able
to find funding for for open-source software.
We've gotten grants from the theory and Community Fund in the
ethereum foundation themselves, maker dial, stable fund, all of
these projects want to accelerate blockchain
development, And help if they're IAM 2.0 and projects based on a
theory and go to market faster. And we also want to see that
happen. So it's went been where our
Focus has been and I think that that's healthy for where the the
blockchain space it is right now, but eventually, we're going
to shift our Focus to the broader open source market and
our sponsorship of GitHub Universe in San Francisco.
This week is just sort of our first litmus test for what
that's going to look like in 2019.
In 2020 quit. So you've already mentioned a
couple of names. It can you go into what projects
I've already successfully? Pound successfully posted
bounties on your project. Yeah sure.
Happy to. And the other thing that I'll
note is that I think transparency is a really
important value for a blockchain project and as part of that
ethos, we've built to the get coin leaderboard which you can
access a get coins. KO / leaderboard and always see
an updated version of the answer.
I'm about to give you, but you have to answer your question.
We've done a handful of bounties with metal mask, which is the
largest etherium based browser wallet in the world.
We have done some bounties with the etherium foundation itself.
Get coin is built with get coin. So anytime I have a software
development task that I don't have time for or I am not a
subject matter expert in we Put a bounty on get coins, open
source, repo and build get coin with get coins.
So it's been a way that we've been able to do a lot with a,
with a small team Market protocol, which is a derivatives
trading platform on aetherium, has used us to lat.
And if you go down the list, you can see names like decentraland
and furo cybercom cyber Congress, auger web 3j giveth.
We've done projects or bounties with a lot of different projects
in the space and it's been a real blessing to earn from all
of the different use cases that people are trying to build an
etherium because they're quite fast.
So maybe this is the time to go into some stats, you actually
have quite an extensive stats section on on your website.
So how many bounties are there on?
Get coin total Right. Thanks.
Yeah, as you noted, if you go to get coin dot Coast results, you
can always see our updated stats in the reason that we've done
that is because people typically see the get coin landing page.
And they say, oh, this looks well done.
And it's a good idea, but does it work well?
Hey, flip over to this stat section.
And here's all our numbers, you think it's working?
And yeah, the to answer your question, we've done almost
about 1,000, bounties on on get coin over the last year, and we
also have the A feature called tips which is just it's just
sending money from from person a to person B.
And we've done about 1,000 of those for a total of two
thousand transactions. We have done a total in three
hundred and forty three thousand dollars worth of total platform
value on get coin. And if you break that down by
month, it's sort of on an upward slope as we get get more
adoption in the space over time and We've helped, let's see.
The stat. The most current stat is 220.
Funders, reach an audience of just over 10,000 developers and
complete, two thousand transactions with 550 unique
coders. So that's, that's sort of the
volume that's going through the double sided Market.
In total on a per unit basis. If you post a bounty on get
coin, you can expect that it will be started within seven
hours. That's the median Bounty start
time and you can expect that it Will be turned around at about
85 percent success rate, once it's started and that will
usually take about six days for the median Bounty, the hourly
rates on the platform are between 20 and 60 dollars, which
is quite a wide range. But I think that, you know,
we're starting to put more analytics into what the hourly
rates are for specific Bounty types.
Because we think that right now get coins buoyed by the fact
that everyone's searching for software developers in the
blockchain space. And so there's a lot more demand
than there is Supply. But over time, we think it's
really important for the brand that there's healthy hourly
rates for get coin bounties because you know, we don't want
to be another fiver or another up work, where it's just sort of
seen as a race to the bottom. We think it's really important
to provide leverage for software developers, to lead better lives
in, to get involved, in a were in a space.
That's that's making the world better.
And so, we're really, we're really focused on that hourly
rate number as get Coin grows from having 200 funders to 1000
funders and Beyond. What so here, well, I think you
do you name the numbers so we could do the math.
So what's the, what's the average funding of a bounty?
Yeah, the average funding of a bounty is about $170.
Cool and other bounties that don't get collected.
Yeah, one of the things that we've found is that and I'm
really glad you asked this question.
Because if you think about the gig economy, I think an example,
everyone's really used to is Uber right with Uber, you take
me from A to B and you do it safely.
And, you know, there's no weird quirks and I'll give you five
stars and I'll give you a tip, right?
But with software development, it's a little bit different
because if I'm asking you to do software development for you I'm
inherently a You to do something, that's pretty
abstract, right? I would like feature X but then
maybe I'll get a submission. That looks like feature x sub
Prime and then and then I'll say back to the to the coder.
Oh you know I really wanted x sub prime one but I just was
only able to elaborate it progressively and and I think
that you know that's that's sort of one of the more happy paths
on get coin. And we always ask that people
set aside. A little bit of budget to deal
with Progressive elaboration on on their bounties.
But I think that I think that there's there's sort of like a
failure case here in which I either ask for too much and I
haven't funded the Bounty at a level in which it's going to get
picked up. We call that underfunding, there
is a failure case called Under scoping of your issue.
So if you just put up something that's not really comprehensible
and you don't provide the right documentation for how to
understand the mission of the project and the ethos of the
project, and how to spin up the docker container for it.
Then you're not going to get a lot of bites.
And I also think that quite candidly get coin is not one
giant double sided Market where a bunch of small, double sided
markets for python development and JavaScript development, and
solidity, development and security.
It hunts, and each of these little niches are their own
little double sided Market. It's kind of like, if you go on
air B&B and you search for a house in New York, the liquidity
and Florida doesn't help you with your with your house, or
with your, with your search in New York, and it's very much the
same way when you're searching for a bounty hunter on, get
coin. So I think that there are some
some niches that we haven't figured out exactly how to
penetrate within within software development.
Probably compiler compiler bounty.
Is, I haven't seen a ton of those so I'll just we'll call
that the example and get coins, trying to get better at building
the muscle to instantly scale a double sided Market as soon as
there's demands. But we're only a small team and
we haven't quite gotten there yet.
So, the third category of failure, case that I'm sort of
trying to describe here is not enough liquidity in the market
and it's that's the one that I think that we're really focused
on improving in 2019. I have two little follow-up
questions. So one, the first one is so how
much back and forth is that typically between the funder and
the person actually working on the Bounty?
And secondly, what kind of dispute resolution do your
offer? So basically if I find an issue
and I get an absolutely subpar response and they want to
collect the Bounty for that. How do I, what would I do as the
funder? Yeah.
So to answer your question, we've seen on average three or
four comments on GitHub threads between when the bounty is
posted and when it's actually submitted.
So I think that's the answer to your first question.
The, the answer your tears. Sweat, second question is, how
does dispute resolution on on get coin work?
And so the thing that we're trying to instill in our funders
here is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
cure. And so the first thing that That
you can do is do a really good job of scoping out what you want
to see and what your coding standards are, what the
acceptance criteria for your Bounty, is not all funders do
this, but the ones that do CC way less disputes.
Another feature that we offer is called permission bounties.
So if you're asking for something that requires a new
skill set or subjective submission criteria, for
example, I do a lot of design bounties on get coin and if I
don't like someone's design, It doesn't mean that their
submission was wrong. It just means that I'm not gonna
be able to use it because it aesthetically doesn't Vibe with
with what I'm trying to do. So approval approval required.
Bounties are another way to prevent disputes from happening
and and so we've tried to do that convinced funders to use
that as much as possible. That's that's prevented a lot of
disputes and then and then so the the the question becomes
well what if those two Preventive measures don't work.
Then what happens? And so I think that there's two
levels of answering your question.
With respect to how dispute resolution works on get coin.
One is what's the trustless dispute?
Resolution immutability layer forget coin and the second one
is what are the social norms that are acceptable in open
source software and specifically on get coin?
Now get coin is one of the first bouncy networks that actually
has scale and that people are actually using the I'm smart
contracts to work for their first crypto instead of buying
their first crypto. And so, I think that we're an
interesting test case here, we're also very lucky to be
working on open source software, where there's sort of social
norms around what's acceptable. Because everything you do is for
the most part, tied to your real identity, your GitHub profile
which is tied to your, to your real identity.
So we're lucky that there's an ethos and open source software
where we treat each other like humans.
And also it's connected to our to our real-world identity and
that creates a social Norm ERM where the acceptable, you know,
if someone submits it something that I truly isn't usable and
it's it's not against if it's against my specifications, then
I'll go back to them and say, hey can you please revise this
and maybe they will. Maybe they won't if they do then
maybe we're back on the happy path.
And if they don't then we're maybe I'll tip them. 20% in
exchange for their time and move on to the next contributor.
We haven't seen any disputes actually escalated to get coin
core yet. We do know that as we scale,
that it's something that we're going to have to be able to deal
with. The plan is to leverage delfi
Network, which is an arbitration platform that's being built by
by the bounties Network and other consensus project.
And the way it's going to work is that in, in our Bounty smart
contract. There's there's an address which
right now is the null address but eventually, it'll be a smart
contract. That's the represents five,
Arbiters and three. Out of five, Arbiters will have
to vote in your favor in order to send the steak to the, to the
funder, or to the coder. So we've put a lot of thought
into this and we don't have it live yet but in the the tldr is
that in the meantime, social norms have have sort of allowed
us to create a good user experience without the backing
of that smart contract. Trustless layer If you've
listened to previous episodes with Marley gray and Matt
koerner, you know, that Microsoft is committed to
providing enterprise-grade tools and infrastructure for
blockchain developers. Well, the Azure blockchain
workbench is perfect for organizations building.
Consortium networks. Take the etherium proof of
authority template, for example, it's ideal for permission.
Networks were consensus, participants, are known and
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Network governance, that leverages parodies extensible,
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Enterprise, check out aka.ms/offweb the center and
start building today. We'd like to thank Microsoft
Azure for their support of epicenter on the topic of
dispute resolution. I mean, this is something that
we've covered I feel like in previous episodes but do so you
know you mentioned delfi network is as a potential dispute
resolution mechanism. I'm not super familiar how it
works but do you envision that You said earlier, you know,
there are sort of like different markets so you might have
JavaScript development or python development or you know at some
point that if sequence successful you might see get
coin, open up and get into other types of software development.
That isn't specifically. The blockchain could be like
security or Linux development, or Windows development, do you
envision a future where? As a, as a project funder?
I would specify my dispute resolution mechanism.
And so the one that best works for my specific use case.
And also where I know that I'm going to find competent,
dispute, resolution, Arbiters. Yeah, that's a really good
question. And I think that Dispute
resolution is is something that's hopefully, we're going to
see a lot more momentum in the broader space in in blockchain,
in 2019, the way, the get coin smart contracts are architected
is that we're using standard bounties, which is a standard
VIP want to 1081, which is the standard for bounties on
ethereum. And there's actually an address
field on the smart contract that allows you to plug in play any
arbitration Network that exists on a theory.
And so I think that we're most excited about the delfi network
and what they're doing with with arbitration.
But as a funder, you'll be able to build in any number of
arbitration networks because of the extensibility.
The modular design of that smart contracts. so at the moment, get
coin primarily is hosting bounties for the blockchain,
ecosystem, blocking projects and I guess what would be desirable,
it would be to see that expand into sort of broader
development, brought our open source development, so companies
like Facebook and Google and other large web to companies you
agree use bounties to Identify security vulnerabilities on
their systems for example, that has been quite successful.
I think for many of them, do you see get coin moving into the
closed-source software space and how would that play out in your
in your view? Yeah, I think that by and large
the ethos of the project right now, it's stated.
Read our mission page is to grow and sustain open source
software. The commons of the software
development world and I think that our mission is is one of
the big reasons why people choose to do bounties on get
coin people. I like to say that you we as as
web, three designers need to design for humans and not just
wallets. And one of the things that we've
learned about human beings is that they decide to do work.
Not only based upon the compensation that they're doing
but also upon the impact that that work is going to have both
on their own lives and skill sets, but on the World At Large
and also whether or not it aligns, With their values.
And I think that the open source source, ethos of get coin has
really buoyed us as we've as we've been coming out of seed
stage and growing a little bit larger.
Now that being said, there is a large portion of the world that
operates on Norms of closed-source software, and we
do plan on building a bridge. From the open the community of
get coin contributors that are right now focused on open source
and building a bridge to close Source bounties.
And you know, you can expect that in the future.
If you post a bounty on get coin on a closed Source repo it'll
maybe have an option to India contributor and give you instant
access to the code base as soon as you're accepted on that
Bounty so that's a feature set that you could that you could
hope to see in the future. And really what?
I think that we're disrupting when we go into closed source.
Is software development recruitment and anyone who who's
been on LinkedIn for more than six months knows that software
development recruitment is broken.
And there's not you know it or if you've spent some time doing
whiteboard interviews then I think that you might think that
your interview for a position as a software engineer in in in a
major tech company. Maybe doesn't approximate what
the real world user experience of working.
Being in that company is and the reason why we want to enter
closed Source bounties is that we think that bounties are
fundamentally a better way to hire software developers than
than white board interviews or spray-and-pray.
LinkedIn messages. I mean you can basically just
set up a screening Bounty for your company and not work on
something that approximates what it would be like, working at
that company, but actually work on work that you'd be doing if
you worked at that company. And that's a really great way to
understand and a low pressure way.
No whiteboard interviews, no long phone calls, no recruiter
screens. That's a way to try before you
buy on hiring and so we think that that's a potential.
Not only new feature for get coin but that's a potential
Revenue opportunity for the project in the future.
So I just decide question what's a white board interview?
Oh, white board interview is if you're recruiting for a software
development job, you'll probably go through a phone screen and
then you'll get invited on site. And then you'll be asked to
stand up in front of a whiteboard in front of a couple
people who would be your teammates and sort of binary
tree or something like that. Basically, the complaint that
software developers often have about whiteboard interviews is
that if you want to sort of binary tree and your day job,
you just Google how to do it, and then you just coat it in
front of your computer, but a lot of software developers are
socially anxious, and so, standing up in front of a white
board and writing something down.
In explaining, your thoughts in front of a panel of three to
five people. Oil is not really a good
approximation of what it's like to do the job there.
And so, that's sort of what a whiteboard interview is and why
it's bad in in 25 seconds. So are you saying you see this
more as a springboard to actually get a stable employment
with, with the company? Yeah, I mean, I think that, in
some cases bounties are springboard to get stable
employment with the company. We've also seen people that are
interested in just working for bounties because they like the
variety and we have a contributor in Nigeria and we
have a contributor in India who are making Western wages by just
working for get coin. And so we've sort of seen both
categories of people on the application.
So typically people also see themselves as part of a company.
I think this is one of its kind of where people obtain meaning.
I was one of the things that lets people have a narrative
about their own life and tell people what they do for a
living, and who they work for? What, what that, what they do.
Exactly. So in the gig economy, that,
that is, something that is lost a little bit, right?
So, The connection between the company itself and the employee.
And my question is is twofold. So do you think this is this is
something that a lot of people actually want do they want to be
Freelancers and not be tied down but also not have that feeling
of belonging to a company but also how does that actually pan
out for the companies? So basically if your company and
you actually have You do you do a lot of your development work?
Your external externalize, it by by funding bounties.
You actually have to specify everything to an excruciating
detail to actually get good results.
Add to me, it seems like that wouldn't work for any kind of
tasks and of course, there are tasks where this works
perfectly. But as soon as they actually, if
they actually have an effect on the system architecture, for
instance, this kind of Sound. I mean obviously that that were
contained tasks like security testing and and small issue a
small tickets that you can specify well.
But do you think this actually scales can you build an entire
company just by putting out bounties?
Okay, so a good really good question.
I think that we're building and I'm going to come back to your
question but first to frame the my answer.
I think that we're building a completely open source The
system that's based on money becoming a core protocol of the
internet as opposed to something that was just bolted on, on the,
on the side. And I think that right now, 95%
of the applications in the open-source Financial system,
our web Wall Street 3.0, sort of financial speculation
applications. And I am very, very happy to be
exploring the ideas of what do open source Financial system,
jobs look like and I think that there is One macro theme that
sort of is, is perpendicular to that open source Financial
system jobs idea. And that's what happens to jobs
if and when they're unbundled from what traditional employment
looks like. So, you know, not to expand the
scope of your question, but I think a lot of, like, what keeps
me up at night is, you know, what happens in in this new
ecosystem, to health insurance, and, to into retirement plans,
and to the stability associated with With a traditional
employment agreement and there's a company in Boulder Colorado
called topless, which is, which is working on that, which I'm
very excited about, they want to provide self Sovereign
employment that you carry with you, from job to job and see
your health insurance. In your retirement is just sort
of like, part of this. This dowel that comes with you
from company to company. But to specifically address,
what you asked me about, which was Was, which was, you know, do
people want to go from company to company and you have to
specify things in excruciating detail if you for every single
task that's out there in your company, I think that there's
two major axes. Like there's a trade-off here
between stability and variety of both stability of work, and
variety of work and stability of of who you're working with and
variety of recruitment that comes in.
And so, the thing that I'll I'll say is that we think that
bounties are just our first act. And we're going to be expanding
outside of just Bounties in the future.
We think that. So there's this computer science
cliche that they taught me in computer science 101, which I'm
going to repeat here. And that's that, if the only
tool that you have in your hand, your toolbox is a hammer.
Then, every problem looks like a nail and bounties are amazing.
I love the bounties Network. I love the ability to instantly.
You recruit software Engineers to to get coin.
But I think that they're only good for for specific Niche
tasks where you don't need to have a lot of trust.
You don't need to provision access, you don't need to give a
lot of context and so the next product that we're going to be
launching on get coin, is going to be a tool for you to
basically give a stipend to an open-source contributor over.
Time to contribute to your software development repo and
the idea there is that I will use the the standard for
subscriptions on aetherium, VIP 1337 to give you a grant or a
stipend of four hundred dollars per month.
Let's say that I've worked with with you Frederica on on three
or four bounties. I've gotten to a point where I
can trust you. I know that you deliver good
work and I don't want to spend a bunch of time specifying.
Every single task that you do forget coin.
I will give you a 400 die die as a stable coin.
That's worth $1. I will give you a four hundred
died a month Bounty and I'll just A give me $400 worth of
value to my repo. You figure out what it is.
Here's your roadmap and you know thank you very much for becoming
a maintainer of my repository. So I think that the short answer
to your question is that bounties are great for adding
variety to your repository, but people need they stability of
traditional employment. And that will be our second act,
and you can expect that feature to be launching some time in
queue, for 2018. On get coin.
Okay, quiz that super interesting so you don't just
have bounties, you'll also have grants the third thing that I
actually thought about when I read your white paper is public
goods. So do you think there's a way to
actually fund public goods on your platform?
So the thing that came to mind was in was a dominant Assurance
contract. Yeah, so I mean, I think that a
couple answers ago, I had mentioned that people want to do
work, not only the compensates. Well, but aligns, with their
values and has a positive impact on themselves and on the world.
And one of the things that we found is that we're building
this substrate for an open-source Financial system and
in a way, you can make an argument that that some of the
stuff that we're doing with the ethereum foundation and out, the
protocol lever level is a public good and one of the Dynamics
that I'm really excited about talking talking about with Back
to this is the prospect of of crowdfunding a bounty.
So basically if you put forth an idea that's going to help
increase the commons, then everyone should have an
incentive to pile on and to add funding to make sure that that
Bounty actually gets gets turned around and get coin, does
support crowdfunding bounties and I think that we do need to
do a better job of soliciting donations in crowdfunding
bounties. But I think that one of the key
things with with supporting the Has is to align the in
individual incentive of the profit incentive of a software
developer. Everyone has to pay their
mortgage and everyone has to put food on their table.
You want to align that individual incentive with what's
good for the community and I think an open-source Financial
system is a really good place to start.
And there are other Commons that we need to support and structure
once we solve the problem of an open-source Financial system.
So I'm excited about Work bounties network is doing in
bounties for the ocean, which is a bounty that you can get paid
out if you if you clean up trash off of a beach, I'm excited
about the way bounties can be applied to combine individual
incentives with Community incentives in a number of
different areas. And I hope that we see more of
that. Once we solve the fundamental
incentive problem with the, with the traditional Financial system
by creating an open-source Financial system.
What? So, if as a contributor actually
start working on the Bounty, I actually have to press a button
that says start work, right? So, in that way, I can actually
stop other people from working on the same problem and I
understand why. So, you don't want to create
race conditions for contributors, which is nice for
contributors and but as a funder and how do I actually make sure
that the person who said they were going to work on this
actually works on this? There's some sort of reputation
That that is at stake. Should they should they not
deliver or in effect? There's an opportunity cost for
the funder so should locking these issues be priced in some
way? Yeah, that's a really great
question and I'm glad that you asked it.
The one thing I'll say is that the start work button, locks the
bounty in our traditional bouncy type, but we do have contests in
Cooperative bounties, which Cooperative bounties allow you
to work together with other people say, You're a designer
and I'm a front-end engineer. We are skill sets complement
each other and we can complement the we can cooperate on Bounty
with competitive bounties. It's more of a race to get
things done and these are sort of dicey because you don't want
to introduce spec work on to your platform spec.
Work is is speculative work that you don't know if you're
actually going to get paid now. So there's a predatory element
to spec work that we want to keep off of the platform but
there is a Valid use case for contest bounties, namely in the
sense of like a security bouncy. Where if you get an exploit,
then you should be able to get paid for that that exploit.
And I think that that's a healthy use of of contest, type
bounties, but specifically to your question, I'm sorry.
Could you? So your question was was was
about the race condition of start work.
Would you mind repeating it real quick?
Yeah, so sure. So basically the question was as
a The the issue actually gets look for other contributors
because they know someone is working on this, but there's a
funder. But do I have control over the
contributor that actually takes this?
Do they have reputation? Can I say?
No, I don't want this guy. They haven't delivered on the
past three issues or they say I'm working on this and then
they, then they then they never heard from again.
So, should they actually have to put up some funds that are
slashed if they don't deliver? Or should they have a reputation
system? Where you can see?
This person has consistently delivered for other projects.
I should trust them as well, with locking this bounty, and
making this an available for other people, right?
Okay. Yeah.
Thanks for reorienting me there. Yeah, so the, we have
permissioned bounties, which is I'll select the contributor,
they'll apply and I'll select them.
And then we also have permission list which is just anyone can
start and work on the bounty, we have found that there's a small
issue with Bounty abandonment which is basically someone
claims they're going to work on something and then they go on.
Sail sailing for two weeks and then they don't come back or
they're just not being responsive.
And so we have sort of a slashing condition they're in
which will Mark prominently on their profile.
This person is not commutative and they might just bail on you.
So I think that reputation is sort of being built there and
one of the items on the roadmap for early 2019 is the ability to
not only have permissions bounties and permissionless
bounties but have a third option to steak semi Sure that says
that you're actually serious about getting this done and so I
think that that's a crypto staking is a crypto economic
primitive. That's obviously, the ethereum
foundation is excited about with respect to Casper and other
projects are excited about and we will be building that into
get coin in early 2019. So moving on to the next topic
and you mentioned it, briefly previously is the EIP 1 through
37 or leet and is it is a proposed standard for
subscriptions on blockchain. This is a proposal that you made
on an EIP system and is for the ERC 948 token standard.
Tell us about this token standard.
And I, you're advocating for it, right?
Well, so as you noted, its VIP 1337, which was an EIP number
that I was watching for about about a month and a half, for
those of the, those of you who don't know, 1337 stands for
elite which is short for elite. And it's one of the, I think
it's from Gamers back in the day if you got like a headshot in,
do more something, you would say, oh, that's soul.
Eat. But old geek reference.
It's a, it's an old geek reference.
Thank you. You're more clear.
How many people how many people you think we're looking at this
VIP? Like just waiting for it to come
up and posting something on it? I've met at least one person
who's like on, man, you got it and I didn't, but the way I got,
it was I wrote a python script that sent me a copious number of
text messages when it was available.
But anyway, so that's just the number and it surely lead, sir.
Yeah, that's that's sort of some of like the geeky history there.
But the reason for the, for the standard is that I think that
we're building an open-source Financial system, and I think
that tokens in ico's or just the First Act of this world
financial computer that we're building, I think the ico's are
really great for a lot of things, but I do think that
subscriptions are a very healthy way of aligning, the incentives
of depth, founders with consumers of depths and the
issue that I always give to illustrate.
This is that when you want to subscribe to To Netflix, which
is ten dollars a month. You just subscribe to Netflix
because it's pretty low risk and there's not a high information
barrier to subscribing to Netflix.
I just pay $10 a month and I cancel down the line.
If I'm not getting value from it, there's no white paper to
read. You know, we're competing with
utility tokens by the way, which there's a 45-page white paper to
read. You have to understand who the
founders are what their vesting schedule is, what is the crypto
economic primitive of this white paper?
I just want to use your product, I don't want to have to do a ton
of research and so and so Paying $10 a month.
It's something that people are used to in the Legacy web and
it's a low-risk way of trying things that that you can always
cancel over time. If you're if you end up not
using it or not getting value from it.
The other side of the coin is for adapt founder.
So if you're adapt founder and you choose to do an IC 0, then
you get a lot of money in the door, you have a little bit of
regulatory uncertainty associated with that money, if
you're in the United States, like I am and you basically have
to build utility and then and then assume that you're the
people who bought your tokens. The speculators are going to be
the same people who are going to derive utility from your
platform. We think that subscriptions are
a fundamentally better. Way to monetize your doubt
because your speculative are there are no speculators.
It's all just product Market fit, who's going to use my
platform and also if I have X number of subscribers and I have
y conversion rate and I have z turn rate, then I know my cash
flow. 12 months down the line. If you can find a nice you or
token based system that knows their cash flow and 12 months,
come find me. And and tell me about it because
I don't think that that exists in the tokenization model and in
to be clear, I think that ico's in token.
Tokenization is fundamentally Innovative, but I think that
subscriptions are meant to provide an alternative funding
model Ford apps, that's proven out.
It works in Web 2.0 and and we think that it should exist in in
web 3.0 And so what myself and the many many other, smart
people who are involved in EIP 1337, have done, is we've
created a standard for subscriptions on the blockchain
that you will be able to just drop into your dap when we
launched in two weeks at Defcon 4 in Prague.
So basically, the idea is that you just clone our repo and then
you can instantly put subscriptions into your depth
in. We have a, we have a reference
implementation that's been security audited, and is ready
to just be dropped. Opt-in to your repo.
So you don't have to do a bunch of research in order to put
subscriptions into your Dap. You can just, you can just clone
the repo and put it in there, and hopefully, we'll see a
proliferation of projects that monetize with subscriptions
instead of tokenization. After we launched at Devcon.
At the end of October this year, Okay, so just understand how
this works. So I'm a, I'm a adaptive,
pelipper, I'm building. I don't know, some sort of a Dap
to like a Marketplace for preferred to get issues or
whatever. Okay, I'm bit I'll be I'm
building a widget, you know, typically I would, I would, I
would fund that with an IC o----, utility token or not.
That's not really the question here but You think that an
alternative funding model and its really make sense would be
to build that app and rather than go out and race, a bunch of
money through Nico and distribute these utility tokens.
You can simply open that product to the community as a user.
I pay a monthly subscription in ether and I get access to the,
to the DAP. How does that?
How does that work? From a user's perspective?
Because I presume I mean you would want to have it done in
such a way that the price would be may be fixed to something
that more stable. Like dollars.
Is that does that? Is that part of the standard or
not? Yes.
So he IP 1337 is built off of ERC 20, which is the token
standard on ethereum. And we do think there is a use
case for for any year, see 20 token but the ones that were
most excited about are stable coins.
And so basically the way it works is that you will as a
consumer that's going to Sebastian's widgets.com and
wants to subscribe to it. You'll you'll be prompted to
purchase a subscription and And you will sign in a transaction
in meta mask. That is your consent to debit
the let's call it. Ten died a month just to stick
with that price point for Sebastian's, widgets
Sebastian's, widgets ships, widgets to you once a month and
you can revoke that consent at any time using the smart
contract. And basically, once you revoke
consent, the provider will never be able to charge you again for
for that widget purchase. And if You've coded Sebastian's
widgets.com correctly. You'll stop sending widgets to
the to that consumer. And so the idea is that you can
trust this league create and revoke consent for those ERC, 20
tokens to be debited from your account using the smart
contract. This seems awfully similar to
other solutions that people have implemented in the past for
things like video, streaming, where there's essentially a
payment Channel That's opened up and there are sort of
transactions that are signed every second or whatever every
time period and content. That is delivered in exchange.
How different is that from from like a typical Co-payment
Channel implementation. Got it.
So, yeah, you're right. The, the sort of screaming money
use case. I think, is a really, really
important one for the future of the open-source Financial web.
And the one thing I'll say is that I'm on the business models,
ring a teeth magicians, in, in Prague this, this fall and I'm
by no means this subscriptions maximalist.
I just I just think that you know, the more that we can
explore these different business models, the better, the
difference between And subscriptions and payment
channels specifically is as a difference in granularity
subscriptions. The use case is a little bit
more once a week and once a month and also there's an
expectation of how you m the charges.
So, basically, if if I'm paying for a video stream, just use
your video streaming example, and I accidentally leave on my,
my video stream for 72 hours. Then I'm liable to get charged
for wait. More than I would if there is
just a fixed price $10 a month subscription to to your video
channel. So I think that the two primary
differences between the streaming money use case and
subscriptions is a the granularity and B whether your
metered based off of exact usage or just on a monthly or weekly
basis. Cool, it's super glue, that's a
fantastic VIP. When do you think it's going to
be available? So we're in a pending state
right now, and there's a reference implementation that
has been Then security audited that you can just drop into your
dap right now on in the middle of October.
The official launch is at Devcon for in Prague, which is two
weeks away. And so if any of your listeners
are going to be a Devcon for, please come find me.
And I will give you a copious amount of Swag that all says,
delete on it. So come find me at Defcon 4.
That's the, that's the official launch date October 30th.
So fantastic. So we've spoken a lot about
financing different things but we have we haven't spoken about
financing get coin so how do you finance yourselves and how do
you make sure you can pay out your own Bounty question.
The Bitcoin was initially funded by myself with the gains are
made in the 2017 bull market for aetherium and I was lucky enough
to be introduced to Joe Lubin who is a co-founder of aetherium
and also the founder of consensus, the largest
blockchain Venture studio in the world.
I was lucky enough that he believed in our mission of
growing and sustaining open source software and also
realized that get coin is a bolt-on accelerants to his
portfolio of 50 to 100 blockchain based projects.
So he has agreed to fund us while we explore the
intersection of jobs and open source, software, and bounties,
and subscriptions. And all of that, good stuff and
and super thankful to Joe, and to the consensus mesh for being
a supportive, Place to experiment on in this area, I
think that long term. We're trying to figure out what
our business model is. We have made a decision that I
cos are just the first killer app of the internet of money and
we have a wider view than just tokenization and icos and don't
want to just take the first exit ramp.
That's, that's made available to us.
I also think that tokenization and icos don't fundamentally.
Align the incentives. Lives of our users and of the
founders of the network. And I think that for that
reason, we've decided not to do an IC o---- at least for now I'm
very excited about the possibility of subscriptions on
get coin for all of the reasons that I've mentioned to you while
we were talking about EIP 1337. I think that subscriptions are a
great way of aligning incentives between users and zap Founders
over time. I do think that another model
that we're looking at is The just taking a percentage of
every Bounty that's on the platform that's completed
successfully. If we're providing software
developers to people who need software development.
We think that if you consider the Block Chain development rush
to be a gold rush, then I think that we're selling pick access
to the gold miners so to speak. And there's there's a there's a,
I think there's a valid, reason why we should be taking maybe
five or ten percent of each Bounty.
But You know, we're not exactly sure about that.
That monetization model. And then the the last answer to
your question is that get coin is launching a non fungible
token at Devcon for this year and we have a business model
that's built into that non fungible token that we're
launching it Devcon and so I'm pretty excited to see whether or
not people use the non fungible token and whether or not it's
something. Thing that can provide us
Revenue at scale. So I guess that's my, my sort of
like overview of the different monetization models that were
looking at, but I will just repeat that.
Joe Lubin has been the ultimate backer and consensus has been
the ultimate support system. With a long-term view that is
allowing us to explore this space and focus on our users
without having to worry a ton about monetization yet and I'm
very thankful to Joe and consensus for their support.
Can you expand on the non-functional token that you
mentioned a little bit? Sure so the official launch is
at Devcon and reading between the lines we've been pretty busy
launching EIP 1337 and and the non fungible token at the same
time. But we're supported by bounties
and get coin has made made by get coins.
So are our small 11 person team is really chugging, but we're
supported by a community of 10,000.
That's, it's helping us build this.
So, Trying to launch two major things.
And in one week is, is is something that I think is within
the realm of ability for us. But anyway, enough framing the
the non fungible token that we're launching is called Kudos.
And what it is is say you turn around a bounty on get coin and
you did a really spectacular job.
Get coin. Is issuing a Marketplace of
beautiful artwork that are at test stations that you can
attach to your your get In profile.
And so, you can, as you're paying out the Bounty, let's
call it $170 bouncy because I told you that that's the average
bounty on. Get coin for the price of a
postage stamp which is about 40 cents.
You can show your appreciation for the software developer in
your life and sends them a JavaScript, ninja badge or a
open-source sustainer badge, that they will be able to trade
if they want to, if they don't care about it or they can just
display it on there, get coin profile.
And again, this is like LinkedIn endorsements, but it's got
beautiful. Teufel art associated with it
and it cost 40 cents. So, the price is negligible
enough that people won't mind attaching it to a hundred and
seventy dollar Bounty, but it's high enough that people won't
just like endorsements, Pam, you like, you kind of see on on
LinkedIn. So the, I guess, the short
answer to your question is that we're launching an art Market
Place on get coin that you can use to show appreciation for the
software developers on your team that you're trying to recruit or
build a relationship with awesome.
That's a great way to get people really excited about software
development and open source. But Kevin, thank you so much for
coming on today. It's great to have you talking
about, get going and looking forward to seeing how the
platform evolves in the future. It sounds like already.
It has picked up quite a bit of attention, from the, from the
open source development community in sort of the broader
ecosystem and I guess probably, we could, we could point to as
at to it as one of the one of the platform's that's getting
actual usage. And so, congratulations for
that. Yeah, I thank you both for
having me on the show and kudos for being great podcast, hosts.
Thank you and I guess we'll see you at Defcon.
See you there? All right, thank you again.
Thank you for joining us on this week's episode.
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