1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,600 This is Epicentre episode 533 with guest left Harris 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:22,080 Carpetzers of Rocky. Welcome to Epicentre, the show 3 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:24,040 which talks about the technologies, projects, and 4 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,560 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,400 I'm Frederica Anne and today I'm speaking with Left Harris, who 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,480 is a true crypto OG and the founder of Rodkey. 7 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:39,120 Rodkey is an open source tool for accounting and portfolio 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,240 tracking and management that focuses very much on privacy. 9 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,800 Before I chat with Lev Harris, let me tell you about our 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,760 sponsors this week. This episode is brought to you 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,440 by Gnosis. 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You can stake directly to Chorus 35 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,960 One's public note from your wallet, set up a white table 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,920 note, or use the recently launched product Opus to stake 37 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,760 up to 8000 ETH in a single transaction. 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,160 You can even offer high yield staking to your own customers 39 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,200 using their API. Your assets always remain in 40 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,800 your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind. 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,960 Start staking today at Chorus .1. 42 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,440 Hey, left Harris, it's good to have you on. 43 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:52,440 Hey hey Federici, nice to nice to be here. 44 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:00,280 We had you on incidentally for the first time on the 10 year 45 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,320 Epicenter episode because kind of we talked about kind of whom 46 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,200 would you we like to kind of have on who's the true OG, who's 47 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,360 been here forever And your name was very much at the top of the 48 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,120 list and kind of we reached out to you and he said you're super 49 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,360 happy to come on, but it's a little bit weird because you've 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,160 never been been on before. So here we are to make up for 51 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,440 that left heart. You've you've been in this 52 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,760 ecosystem literally since since the very beginning. 53 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,280 Tell me about your background and how you first entered the 54 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,720 space. Yeah, so indeed I've been here 55 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,040 for quite a while. I entered the the crypto space 56 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,000 first, like by mining some Bitcoin back when it started, 57 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,560 but I lost it. Oh no. 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,880 Hard drive? Yeah, it's well, it happened. 59 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,680 And like for real though, I I I got interested when I was in 60 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:02,000 Berlin looking for a job because I I had I had a job at Oracle 61 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,200 Game Behar, which is the the the big American Oracle the the the 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,400 giant. And it was really boring and I 63 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,760 just wanted to do something fun. And then I saw an ad by Gavin 64 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Wood for the Berlin Etherium office that was just starting to 65 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,640 work on on on this thing called Etherium and I was like OK that 66 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,920 sounds interesting, let's go. And so in 2014 I joined the F 67 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,040 Dev so the foundation's development army in Berlin, and 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,800 started working on what was it mostly. 69 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Mostly on Solidity, basically because I was really interested 70 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,360 in compilers. I had even written one. 71 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,480 It's still in GitHub and of an early version of Rust. 72 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:45,560 But before Rust existed. Yeah, I started working on 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,960 Solidity and then later a bit on the C++ client, which 74 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,080 unfortunately doesn't exist anymore. 75 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,760 And yeah, this is how I started the the trip into Ethereum. 76 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,560 And this was literally before, before the genesis block, right? 77 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,280 So you started at the end of 2014 and Ethereum went live like 78 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:10,880 July of 2015, right? Yes, that is, that is correct. 79 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,000 What was it like back then? Because kind of if you kind of 80 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,160 look into the Ethereum space now and I mean we we say this all 81 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,120 the time, it's still early and so on, but back then kind of it 82 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,720 was like literally very, very early. 83 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,640 How did you guys kind of see Ethereum and kind of how did you 84 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:35,400 feel about the prospect and the chances of Ethereum making it? 85 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,720 Yeah, that's a good question. So I thought the game back in 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,240 the beginning, I was like literally thinking, it's just a 87 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,440 fun game, Let's see how it will work out. 88 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,600 We were playing in the test net and I remember like double spend 89 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,600 bugs or suddenly money appearing in some account and said that it 90 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,480 wasn't just fun and games. I I didn't really realize the 91 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:07,000 scope of what we were building until maybe Devcon one because 92 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,600 that's when I actually saw the interest by outside people 93 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,800 because as you know so there was in in like so I started like 94 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:20,800 either third or fourth quarter of 2014 and we have Con Zero in 95 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:26,560 November so Q 4/20/14 and that was in Berlin in the the very 96 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:32,320 first office that that was in van der Masjase and then there 97 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:37,200 were only 2530 people all just geeks were you on Ethereum And I 98 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,320 was like OK this is like a meet up and it really was just like a 99 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,960 meet up The only outsiders that I can remember was probably 100 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,920 Gollum some people from from the Golden foundation well then it 101 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,880 was not a foundation with us you know project and to this people 102 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,360 talking about how awesome a series and what what what what 103 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,880 we are doing. But other than that there was no 104 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,680 it was very difficult to actually see how this would be 105 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,840 applied in in the real world later because there was no other 106 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:11,120 developed smart contact platform back back then as I said. 107 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,520 So this slowly started changing from the release and until 108 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,320 Defcon one, because you started people seeing you, you you start 109 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,200 see people use it like deploy smart contracts, make first dabs 110 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,320 and yeah that got really interesting slowly. 111 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Yeah. So DEFCON one was then in London 112 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,000 about 3/4 of a year or so later, right? 113 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,080 Yeah, probably November again in 2016, yeah. 114 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,360 That was shortly after Ethereum had gone live in July. 115 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,400 And then kind of you, you stayed at the Ethereum Foundation until 116 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:57,720 the end of the year and then you move to slock it and you only 117 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,600 you only spend like 8 months there or something. 118 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,560 But I mean, now we remember Slackett mostly for the Dow, 119 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,360 almost exclusively for the Dow. Tell me about what? 120 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,920 Why, why you decided to move over to Slackett and kind of 121 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,080 what the promise was. Well, I mean, so the reality 122 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,160 with with Slackett is that back in there was a lot of drama in 123 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,400 in the Film Foundation back in Defcon one because they were 124 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,040 running out of money. They had spent already too much 125 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,919 of the money that was raised and the so Ethan wasn't doing that 126 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:37,679 well, or at least they were spending more than they had. 127 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:46,400 And so the F dev leadership basically decided at the moment 128 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,600 to just fire everybody. And so everybody was fired back 129 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,680 then. And this is how I ended up in in 130 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:53,360 Slokit. I just was waiting for another 131 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,840 job for the firing. It got undone afterwards and 132 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,080 there was a change of leadership and people actually ended up 133 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,000 staying. But I had already accepted an 134 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,920 offer to go to Slokid and and went there. 135 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,520 So what was slogid supposed to be? 136 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:13,280 So Christophe Yent, one of the three founders of Slokid, he was 137 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:19,440 advertising in Devcon, even in Devcon one like this Ethereum 138 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,280 computer that will be this kind of hardware that we would build. 139 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,640 And this is what I really liked, the connection between hardware 140 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,920 and the software world where you would have it in your in your 141 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,360 home and you could control various things via blocks and 142 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,240 transactions. And the the famous or infamous 143 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,200 thing right now that also gave it its name, the slow kit, it 144 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,960 was this smart lock, right. And they have this demo and we 145 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,520 we also saw it later in some other events where there is this 146 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,640 lock that you do a transaction on mainnet even because it was a 147 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,120 bit cheaper back then and the transaction gets mined and then 148 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,000 the Ethereum computer sees it and unlocks them. 149 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000 The lock, the idea was you know you would do a Airbnb kind of 150 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,800 style of renting an apartment and it will all be on the block 151 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,000 scene and verifiable and all that. 152 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:15,640 And I got really interested in working on this Ethereum 153 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:22,200 computer because I'm still a bit, but back then I was a lot 154 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:30,880 more interested in in very low level back end, back end stuff. 155 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,600 So it was supposed to be eaten in C and all that. 156 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:42,000 But what they ended up getting famous for is how to fund this. 157 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,640 I think, which they announced also since devconwal, that they 158 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,400 will fund it through what they call the DAO. 159 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:55,160 And it's not like what they do right now, like everybody makes 160 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,160 a DAO that just airdrops people tokens and they have a 161 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,160 foundation somewhere in the Cayman Islands, and then they 162 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,080 have the lion's shade of the token. 163 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:13,120 It was a really pure and maybe naive idea that you would create 164 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,120 this Dow that would be an investment vehicle that would 165 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,000 invest in many product, yeah, projects, products, including 166 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,880 the theme computer that Slogit would make. 167 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,960 But it will be completely up to anybody who participates in the 168 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,960 Dow. So everybody who who puts money 169 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:36,200 in, in order to decide if they would ever end up funding 170 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,720 slogit. So this fundraise was actually 171 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,200 incredibly successful, right? Basically back then, there 172 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,880 wasn't actually all that much you could do on Ethereum. 173 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:53,320 And so like 15% or so of all ETH actually ended up in the Dow 174 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,680 sometime. I think kind of they started 175 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:02,360 their tokens there in April or so and then but by June the 176 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,840 contracts had been hacked and you were very much at the 177 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:12,600 forefront kind of when that happened, you and Griff and and 178 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,040 a couple of others, there's actually really good coverage of 179 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,440 this and also kind of like the Theorem Foundation situation 180 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,280 that you alluded to earlier in Laura Shin's book. 181 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,400 I think kind of you were one of the main sources for that book. 182 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,800 Do you think it's it's accurate? Yeah, yeah, it's very accurate. 183 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,400 At least for the stuff that I was that I was involved in, it 184 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,320 was very accurate for them. A theme foundation stuff in 185 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,240 Switzerland. I can't attest anything about 186 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,040 this because I I never went, actually never went to the Swiss 187 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,960 office. Oh, OK. 188 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,880 But all the drama that affected Berlin and all that, yeah. 189 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:54,360 OK, so tell us about the hack. What happened and kind of how 190 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,840 how did it go down? Kind of like from from a first 191 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,960 person perspective. So there is a lot of background 192 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,840 to the hack like the problems that were found with them idea 193 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,560 of of the DAO that it could split to other sub Daos and you 194 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:19,000 could exit the DAO essentially by saying OK I want to you know 195 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,200 like they have now in Molok DAO the rates quit you can just quit 196 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,360 and take your portion of the fans that you put in into a sub 197 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:34,120 like a tile DAO I think they called it and there were lots of 198 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,480 game theoretic problems that some people suggested and they 199 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,840 even had called the moratorium to the Dow so to stop it but you 200 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,880 can't you could not pause the the the dao it there was no 201 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,560 admin key there was no pause button it was impossible to stop 202 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,080 it. And so this fateful day I don't 203 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,640 remember exactly but somewhere in June in the morning I just 204 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,480 wake up to Griff's call telling me that the Dow is being drained 205 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:06,480 and like what what what good morning And yeah. 206 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,840 So what ended up happening was that there was an exploit that 207 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:19,120 was found that was a recursive call inside this exit of the 208 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,120 down. Like like you take your fans and 209 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,720 go, but you could essentially drain the the entire, the entire 210 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:32,280 amount. And yeah, so it happened that it 211 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,880 was being drained. We tried to understand what's 212 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:40,200 happening in the first hours. I think I managed to recreate it 213 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,800 in the test net, but at the same time they stopped. 214 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,760 So whoever did this stopped for whatever reason, we don't know. 215 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,760 And they drained something like 30% around I think of the down 216 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,720 and 70% was left. And then we were like wondering 217 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,920 what to do now because I had recreated on the test net and 218 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,000 had the contract to white hat hat kit. 219 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,400 But yeah, there were questions because was member of of slokid 220 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,080 back then. So should we do this as slokid, 221 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,280 do it as someone Anon? Should we not do it at all? 222 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,720 Is it legal? Is it OK? 223 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,680 And so we were really just not doing anything for the first 224 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,600 days and we're really scared about what with implications 225 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,600 was, What would that mean? Were you worried that someone 226 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,200 else would recreate this? So basically even if the kind of 227 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,040 the initial hacker, I mean they got, they got 30% of the DAO 228 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,040 ETH. But in I mean basically it, it 229 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,720 was clear that there was an exploit and kind of there were 230 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,960 probably not all that many but probably on the order of like 10 231 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,160 or 20 people who could have just recreated this. 232 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,840 Yeah, yeah. So this is exactly what worried 233 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,800 us that copycats would eventually pop up, right? 234 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,280 It's, I mean once you see what happened, even if so I get it 235 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,000 fast because I, I, I I had also written part of the contract, 236 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,720 right. But if I took a few hours, 237 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,840 someone can do it in like double the time or a day and it didn't 238 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,560 happen like a few days later there was the start of copycat 239 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,560 attacks and there was like two or three sub downs being created 240 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,000 it. They were kind of sloppy because 241 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,360 they probably didn't do something right and they were 242 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,360 they were starting draining very small amounts because it really 243 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,440 it was such a funny exploit because it really depended on 244 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,120 how you write the contract. You have to be very careful to 245 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,360 put some parameters correctly and also how much. 246 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,840 So you needed a capital to run it because you essentially are 247 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,880 running capital through the Dow to drain. 248 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,760 So the more you put in the more you could take out. 249 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,880 So in the end that some like a don't remember how many days 250 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,560 later but not too much later we decided to to act and we 251 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,560 weren't. So nobody said who we were 252 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,680 except for. So AVSA agreed to be the the 253 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,080 face of of this of this white hat attack because he didn't 254 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:09,319 want and he was writing that to so AVSA Alex Vander Vandersund 255 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,359 that he didn't want people to think, OK, that's another Black 256 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,800 Hat. So I don't remember he wrote the 257 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,480 Reddit post that the Dow is being safely drained or 258 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,440 something like this and people were saying what why should we 259 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,839 believe you? Who are you guys and and all 260 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:26,760 that. But we drained basically the 261 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,680 rest back then. And Alex back then was with the 262 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,880 Ethereum Foundation, right? I think so, yeah. 263 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,320 And he, I mean he later Co founded DNS, but yeah, so I 264 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,120 think he was at the ethereal foundation at the time and then 265 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:45,960 kind of the other people who were involved were Griff 266 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,240 obviously Christophe and his brother and Stefan Twil and 267 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,760 Jordy. So it it depends. 268 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:58,800 Like, like Stefan Twil, Christophe and Simon Yentz were 269 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:05,040 the three founders of of Slovid. Jordy helped with the He didn't 270 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,440 help so much with the first white heart attack, but later 271 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:13,160 then she was a lot of work and he he basically helped a lot in 272 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,800 this. In the aftermath of there was 273 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,640 quite a few more stuff that I said afterwards. 274 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,920 Super cool. I recently found some some DAO 275 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,680 ease and I kind of I I hung on to it kind of just as kind of 276 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,840 like a reminder for for for old time's sake. 277 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,840 Yeah, without talking there. Kind of a collector's 278 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,840 collector's edition. Absolutely fantastic. 279 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:47,520 So in the kind of the entire drama actually led to the split 280 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,640 of Ethereum and Ethereum and Ethereum Classic. 281 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,880 What did you think about this at the time? 282 00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:02,680 Yeah, that's a hard question because I, I, I, I was much more 283 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,400 in the camp of let's do the DAO wars and the soft fork and let's 284 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,280 try to get it somehow through through counter hiking the 285 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,000 hacker, we had so many nice plans. 286 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,400 I even gave a talk about this in what was it like Lenuid to hack 287 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,760 in Disneyland Paris in July. Like I, I, I, I, I had like this 288 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,160 nice slice and all of them explaining what we can do 289 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,960 etcetera. But it turned out that the soft 290 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:30,920 fork was infeasible as an idea because you could we had the 291 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,680 idea of kind of making it so that all the miners agreed to 292 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,840 throw to the transactions that would be sent by the attacker. 293 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,360 Left Harris maybe let's let's kind of clear up the term soft 294 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:43,880 fork here so we we all know what a hard fork is where kind of the 295 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:49,240 network splits and in a software a software for kind of like some 296 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,440 transactions are censored right. Exactly, exactly. 297 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:59,080 So then the idea was that there would be some kind of agreement 298 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,560 with with the majority of the miners to send some transactions 299 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,920 that would be sent by the attacker and to favor ours. 300 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,920 But the problem with that is that it actually allows the 301 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,520 network to be D dosed. And there was one more problem 302 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,440 that I don't remember. And so it was infeasible as an 303 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,920 idea at the end and otherwise the Dow wars would just end up 304 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,120 in an infinite. Hiking and anti hiking thing, 305 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:27,840 allowing probably the the fans to never be recovered by the 306 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,760 guy, by by the attacker but also by anybody else and it didn't 307 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,040 make sense. So it was either at the end to 308 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:40,280 accept the loss or to do the the hard work that led to a film 309 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,920 classic. I assume if something similar 310 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,720 were to happen today, maybe the decision would would have been 311 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,560 made differently. But at the time, do you think 312 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,760 kind of with them the 2 remaining choices left? 313 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:02,120 So kind of either kind of just giving up the funds or kind of 314 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,920 doing the hard fork, do you think the right choice was made? 315 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,240 Looking at the aftermath, I hate what happened for the next year 316 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,880 or years with the Ethereum Classic and how the community 317 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,120 split this was. It was pretty bad at the time. 318 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,320 I felt that probably we shouldn't do the hard fork 319 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,080 because from a completely personal point of view, I only 320 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,560 had, I don't know, 100 or $200.00 on inside the Dow and I 321 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,360 I could just lose it. But also from the point of view 322 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:38,800 where you know, you felt responsible, like I I felt 323 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,520 responsible. And probably also the others in 324 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,160 in in Slokit and in in in the team felt responsible for for 325 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,960 the loss of funds. It was a relief because then you 326 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,120 wouldn't have to feel OK all these people lost money for us. 327 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:55,120 So I was really, I was really torn between those those two and 328 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:59,600 I still am ideologically I didn't like it that is that is 329 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,200 that is that's quite true. I didn't like it but it kind of 330 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,960 also proved that it's not all about the code but it's also 331 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,800 about the social consensus of Ethereum. 332 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,480 If something like that happened right now, I have no idea what 333 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,720 would happen with. We are getting the question 334 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,160 right now, right if. Lido get if if Lido gets hacked 335 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,240 or something. Yeah, no, this thing that is 336 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,120 right now in Twitter about the minority bug. 337 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,360 Hey, sorry, majority. The Super majority client bug. 338 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,600 I mean that could burn more, not 15 but 25. 339 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:38,120 Right now Percent. No wait, 25 is staked and if 84% 340 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,360 of the 25 is in gift, let's say that all of it would burn. 341 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,920 The worst case, it will be 20% of all ether. 342 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,280 What would happen in that case? Well, to be honest, I don't know 343 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,880 like as you said there weren't too many applications back then. 344 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,640 Right now there is so much and there is so much capital inside 345 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,920 the ecosystem to just burn 20% of the EFF. 346 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:13,080 That is also backing a lot of the LSDS and the DFI and what 347 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,920 that will do to the to the price of it, I really don't know if 348 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,040 that it would be acceptable let's say. 349 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:23,280 Let's let's hope we don't find out. 350 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,560 Yes, yes. So basically one of my, my, my, 351 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,520 my main things when I see the current situation is like like 352 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,320 we should not even have to question this, we we shouldn't 353 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,360 be in a place where a bank can actually get us to that. 354 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,000 Yeah, absolutely. So you spend probably the 355 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,600 longest eight months of of your life at Slackett. 356 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,400 I'm sure you kind of aged like by ten years or something. 357 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,760 And then kind of just after the hack, you actually moved to 358 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:57,920 Brain Bot, which was a company. So basically at the time you 359 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,840 were working on Raiden which was kind of posited as a payments 360 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,280 channel for for Etherium. So basically back then we kind 361 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:15,040 of distinguished between between state channels and yeah, so 362 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,000 basically, yeah, so basically it was meant to address kind of the 363 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,280 scaling slash interoperability space and Rainbow was very much 364 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,560 at the forefront of that, but then somehow completely missed 365 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,960 the boat later. So kind of when it actually took 366 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,920 took off, tell us about your time at at Brainbot who were 367 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,720 hugely involved in the space. Right. 368 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,040 So basically you guys developed one of the clients there were 369 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,000 kind of you guys were kind of involved deeply with the Theorem 370 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,680 Foundation. There were quite a number of 371 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,400 different projects you kind of did in house. 372 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:52,960 Yeah. So basically, tell us about your 373 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,240 time there and where you think kind of it it went wrong and 374 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,120 ultimately failed. Yeah sure. 375 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,200 So one question. I didn't go to brainbot after 376 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,160 the hack. I the longest period that I 377 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000 spent and the worst was basically from the hack until 378 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,800 September because that was the the really complicated stuff 379 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,840 where there were attacks in the DAO after the the the the hot 380 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,160 fork because someone put money in the DAO after the hot fork by 381 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,520 mistake. And then the whole thing with 382 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,120 theorem Classic and the DAO was there because we were called to 383 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,600 help there because the the the hard work never happened and 384 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,680 that was basically the entire summer. 385 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,160 That's a very big story which you can read in Laura's Laura's 386 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,600 book. But after that indeed like in 387 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:50,800 September October I I joined brain board and I joined to help 388 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,160 with building building Dryden basically. 389 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,720 So Ryden was as you said, the payments under solution, right? 390 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,720 So what, what is payment channels, if anybody knows 391 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:09,560 lightning, the lightning network to Bitcoin is what riding is to 392 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,920 Ethereum. That is extremely simple that 393 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,480 you take stuff off chain and it's just for payment. 394 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,680 And you say like let's say I have a payment channel with with 395 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,560 you Frederica and I just sent you, we deposit in this payment 396 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,480 channel which is a contractor, I deposit 10 Neath, you deposit 10 397 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Neath and then we can send those tennis to each other as much as 398 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,680 we want of chain and if ever there is a problem we just 399 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,840 settle it on chain. Yeah. 400 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,160 So basically you would actually have to sign each transaction. 401 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,560 We just wouldn't put it on chain. 402 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,000 And then basically if you kind of if you were to dupe me or 403 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,920 whatever, I could kind of prove this because I kind of had you 404 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,920 assigned transaction, right? Exactly. 405 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,520 And it's a network because it's not just between us two. 406 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,160 So this is what, a single payment salary and it's a 407 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,760 network because then you may have one with Martin and then 408 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,720 Martin has one with Christoph, let's say, and then I can send 409 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,960 directly to Christoph through all of your channel. 410 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,040 So we spent quite a bit of time developing. 411 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,200 Now why did it ultimately fail? I don't know. 412 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,640 I like that. I still like the idea of payment 413 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,000 standards, but not as an entire network to to be used as an A2 414 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,800 solution. Like it's it's a different, it's 415 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,640 a different thing. As we see now from the roll ups, 416 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,080 you want the the fully VM experience to be scalable so you 417 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,240 have the contracts, you have the D5. 418 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,360 This would be only for token transfers from to summer. 419 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,080 One of the reasons was that Brainbot was probably a a very 420 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,640 development oriented company and not at all user facing, so it 421 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,920 was mostly like some geeks just writing code. 422 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,720 So I I think that this had a lot because there was no contact 423 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,600 with with the actual community. Another is that it's actually a 424 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,760 lot more complicated than it sounds to develop this. 425 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:11,280 There is so many edge cases and so many problems that it it 426 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,400 becomes very difficult to actually make this production 427 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,160 ready. I I remember our issues probably 428 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,280 they're still open like half of them about every single edge 429 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,680 case that we hid or could think of. 430 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,400 And you know, like it's it's a very difficult technology to 431 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,400 actually to actually scale because of all these edge cases. 432 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,480 But I mean you, you guys as a collective had thought so much 433 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:39,080 about kind of the constraints and what had to go into it and 434 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,320 kind of you were there for kind of like all of the talk about 435 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,720 plasma and scaling and so on. So in principle, kind of like 436 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,880 when the L2 revolution came, you were in almost the ideal place 437 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,560 to kind of launch your own L2 and kind of make it big. 438 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,000 Why do you think that didn't happen? 439 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,880 I can't answer this. I really don't know because so I 440 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,840 wasn't in. So the problem with Brain Boot 441 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,840 is also that it wasn't, it was basically a top down 442 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,920 organization. So we had no say into what is 443 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,360 done. There was like the the 444 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,880 management decided and we I was just a developer there and we 445 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,440 just did what the management said. 446 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,600 I think that we missed the boat for as a project because it was 447 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,280 too slow to finish riding and then there was no pivot at all 448 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,600 even when stuff changed when it was obvious that there should be 449 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,600 a St. one for example at the same time like we had the plasma 450 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,240 as you said that popped up from the generic states analyst that 451 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,760 states analyst people which we also cooperated with had started 452 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,200 went from states analyst to plasma and then later to 453 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,160 basically I think it's this very big part of the same thing 454 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,760 that's evolved with optimism right now. 455 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,880 So they pivoted every time while well, Brainbow just stayed on on 456 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,560 right? And so for for this, I guess the 457 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,200 lack of of of of pivoting is what killed it. 458 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,960 You then kind of moved on to kind of start Rot Key, which was 459 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,760 your own baby. So as we said in the very 460 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:25,120 beginning kind of Rot Key is an accounting and portfolio 461 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,440 tracking and management software. 462 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,400 But why did you put? Why did you choose that niche 463 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,800 for for your own startup? Good question. 464 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,000 I don't like accounting. I hate it's. 465 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,920 I hate taxes. I hate accounting. 466 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,000 But I just needed to do them. So I didn't even want to make a 467 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,440 startup. I just wanted to do my taxes. 468 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:55,000 Well, that escalated. I, I, I never intended to start 469 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,600 a startup like it's just that I actually started this, as you 470 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,960 can see from the commits in 2017. 471 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,160 So two years before I left riding, it just was a side 472 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,360 project helping me submit my taxes to the bonanza. 473 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,800 In the beginning it was just a command line interface. 474 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,240 And the question came in 2017 when I first realized that we 475 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,960 have to actually, you know, submit taxes on all this stuff 476 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,560 back from 20/14/2015 etcetera. And I was thinking, so how can I 477 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,840 do this? I had no idea. 478 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,480 And I think back then the only thing that was available was 479 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,680 Bitcoin dot tax and I go there, you know, Bitcoin dot tax, what 480 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,720 is it? OK, website, you know upload CSV 481 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,440 or give me all of your addresses and I'm like, wait, why should 482 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,920 they give you their addresses? Can't they just download 483 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,800 something and calculate it all locally and then send it to an 484 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,000 accountant or to the finance on directly? 485 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,560 And the lack of such a tool existing is what pushed me to 486 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,840 create broad case of command line interface basically in the 487 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,880 beginning to just, you know, locally calculate everything and 488 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,360 not say it with I don't know someone else because then they 489 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,680 know you know it's. It's not like it's not like with 490 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,840 with banks, with crypticity a lot more sensitive because you 491 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,200 are setting your transactions and with them your addresses. 492 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,760 So everything you have and because everything is so public, 493 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,280 everything you will ever have in crypto. 494 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,400 Unless you use Tornado or you go through Kraken or Coinbase. 495 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,000 Because someone who actually really wants to follow you, they 496 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,200 can just take all this and then just monitor what you are doing 497 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,520 like years later while you wanted to do your tax reporting. 498 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,320 I don't know 2017 so that I consider it like extremely 499 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,760 sensitive data and I never wanted to say this so this is 500 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,720 how I started working on on on ROT key. 501 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,560 And there's now quite a suite of kind of competitors, right. 502 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,080 So basically there's most, most of those you actually use by 503 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:12,200 still inputting your addresses in a centralized framework and 504 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,120 they kind of calculate things for you, but and you are 505 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,840 definitely sharing your data with them. 506 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,400 Do you think kind of the space has professionalized in terms of 507 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,720 kind of like data security and data privacy or do you think 508 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,400 it's still as dire? It's it's it's a lot worse. 509 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,480 Like instead of having one way to suit yourself on the foot, 510 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,440 now there's a hundred ways to suit yourself on the foot. 511 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,680 It's it's it's really bad. I'm actually very sad that I so 512 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,920 I don't consider any of them actual competitors because they 513 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,720 nobody does what we do. I would also have a competitor 514 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,040 like a lot actually there is one called Ghost Folio. 515 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,840 I think it was shown by one of our users to us. 516 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,080 I think it's more more UK focused or something something 517 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,000 like that. But there was one that had 518 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,760 exactly the same ideas but written in a different language 519 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,239 or something. And but they had basically 520 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,719 exactly the same problem and same idea. 521 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,400 And I if I could say at anybody's competitor, it will be 522 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,440 someone who offers the same thing that we offer which is 523 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,000 basically privacy and keeping it, keeping it local. 524 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,960 Yeah. So I started like that, but I 525 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,199 never actually wanted to make a start up. 526 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:30,440 As I said, I don't know what happened. 527 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:36,440 It's just that after having to leave a brain boat, I just 528 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,360 thought, you know what? I so there were many problems. 529 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,120 I don't want to go into that. But after that I was like, I 530 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,159 would like to work for myself. So what do I have? 531 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,840 And I'm like, OK, I have roti and by then it had you know 532 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:54,360 quite a few like actual users and even paying users and I was 533 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,160 like wait, I have never made a startup so maybe I should try 534 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:02,320 that and just started it along with. 535 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,320 So even though he's not a Co founder, he was basically the 536 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,600 first dev cancel. So a friend of mine and quite a 537 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,040 good developer who is doing the front end in in. 538 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,800 I mean, he's not the only one doing the front end, but he's 539 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,960 the front end lead and lots of other stuff in in in rot key. 540 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,160 What are the main challenges behind running a tool like you 541 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,680 guys are? Wow, where can I start? 542 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,280 OK, there seem to be a lot of challenges. 543 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Choose any choose anywhere you want. 544 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,800 Probably the biggest one would be the choice of being local and 545 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,920 privacy. Preserving actually limits you a 546 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,160 lot in the development processes. 547 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,320 So like while every other tool that offers similar solutions to 548 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,680 to a user, they can just have a website right? 549 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:02,840 And then in the website they just roll out an update and then 550 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,200 another update. You don't need to download 551 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,440 anything. You don't need to do anything, 552 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,080 you just auto update it. It is a problem both for our 553 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,480 users and for us. It's really really annoying that 554 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,760 when you make a local application you have to create 555 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,880 binaries, people have to download them. 556 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,080 And it's not just that you have to create binaries, you have to 557 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,440 create binaries for Windows. You have to create binaries for 558 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:25,960 Linux for many different distros then for Apple macro SX stuff. 559 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,960 Then later when the silicon stuff came this different binary 560 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,920 because completely different architecture. 561 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,800 So you need to have you know 2 binaries for for Apple. 562 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:41,280 So developing local software though it's I believe as a user 563 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,640 it has a lot of benefits as a developer it's a pain in the 564 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,960 behind right Because I like like it it it takes basically it 565 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,400 costs more money in the end because it more dev resources, 566 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,160 more time while you just make a website and you just update it. 567 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,000 So it this is probably one of the biggest challenges the other 568 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,080 would be, but this is something that everybody says. 569 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,320 So I have two talks with founders of of or developers of 570 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,440 other tools that are, you know, completely online when you want 571 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,600 to track crypto. I mean there is a new protocol 572 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,400 or a new primitive, completely new idea popping up every week 573 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,240 or so. And the users are extremely 574 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,120 demanding and they are also very entitling like they're like, 575 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:35,080 wait, why doesn't it track this protocol that only I know very 576 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,480 well. Why doesn't it do this? 577 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,640 So trying to keep up with with crypto and it's development in 578 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,640 this in this field is so fast that it's it's extremely 579 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,440 difficult. Yeah, I can. 580 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,000 I can see that you guys have a free tier and a pay tier. 581 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,320 So how does it work? Kind of what? 582 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,240 As a user, what can I do with the free tier and from which 583 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,880 point onwards do I actually have to pay? 584 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,120 Yeah, so the three tier, so this tiering will change because it's 585 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,120 unsustainable. The three tier is way too cheap. 586 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,680 It's 12, no, absolutely €10 per month plus VAT wherever you are. 587 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,000 Because for example, for Germany we have to start 19% VAT. 588 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,320 If you're in Portugal, a different one, if you're not in 589 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,160 the European zone, it's €10. We've got a feedback that you 590 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,200 can get a lot done with the free version and that we should 591 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,120 actually change that in order to get more money from users. 592 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960 But the IT has limits. So it is limiting the amount of 593 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,680 events that you can process. So if you have more than I don't 594 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,360 know 1000 or something then or 500 I don't remember you will 595 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,960 see a notice saying OK we can't process more than this, please 596 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,560 upgrade to the to the premium version. 597 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,680 And there is some features that we have also in the premium 598 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:02,680 version like a staking I think. And another one is that we allow 599 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,720 and this one of the features that people really like for 600 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:12,160 premium we allow to up upload your database to our server and 601 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,600 then download it from another machine. 602 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:17,760 And this is completely private because the database to all of 603 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,960 the data in ROT keys encrypted using a password that you give. 604 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,480 So we we just see a BLOB of data. 605 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,840 We can't treat it. We just act as a cloud where you 606 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,680 upload the thing and then you download it somewhere else. 607 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,400 You also said that you don't just do accounting and portfolio 608 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,360 tracking, you will also start much doing much more portfolio 609 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,840 management. How does that look like? 610 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,680 So Rocky right now is is mostly a tracker, right, an accounting 611 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,560 tool. There is many ways that you can 612 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,120 take it, but we're a really small team. 613 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,920 So we are, we are resource constrained. 614 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,280 We can either try to do a lot more accounting, you know 615 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,960 there's so many jurisdictions. This is another from from the 616 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,520 another one of the problems. Because people say, OK, I want 617 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,440 to do accounting right, but I am in the Netherlands so I have 618 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,400 these rules. Please help me or I'm in the uki 619 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,680 have the bed and breakfast rule. What is that? 620 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:17,080 Oh here, read it. It's you know the ASRM website. 621 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,200 You know APDF of 100 pages. Please implement it. 622 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,000 I have a premium user. I'm paying €10 per month. 623 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,320 Please I want this implemented from you. 624 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,920 So it starts getting extremely difficult because there really 625 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,680 is every country has its own rules. 626 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,840 So we try to have generic accounting customizable bid as 627 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,080 an accounting solution approach. And we want to make it 628 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,680 configurable for users and users can make PRS even and add their 629 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,520 stuff. But for management side it's 630 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,200 including myself as a user and other users have told us. 631 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,160 So I open the road key. I see what I have in Kraken in 632 00:40:54,160 --> 00:41:01,200 Coinbase or in in DFI. Why can't I actually manage it 633 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,800 from Rodkey? Rodkey has the Kraken API keys. 634 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,360 It has the Coinbase API keys. If I want to make a trade in 635 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,400 Kraken to sell F4 Euro, why can't I do it from Rodkey? 636 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,040 Why do I have to open Kraken, sign in, put my 2FA and not do 637 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,480 it from from from Rodkey? So the idea is to manage your 638 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:31,320 funds by making both on chain transactions and trading on the 639 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,800 exchanges from rot. Here this is not possible yet, 640 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,960 but this is the direction that we would like to take it towards 641 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,120 because it would make it more much more useful tool for for 642 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,720 everybody. Yeah, I I I can see that and I 643 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,600 think it's also something that a lot of portfolio trackers kind 644 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,240 of a path that they have taken also to kind of increase 645 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:56,360 monetization, right. That's that's true. 646 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,480 Like for other portfolio trackers, this is mostly for DFI 647 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,640 only because they are like DFI oriented. 648 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,840 But yes, indeed they they turn into wallets. 649 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,960 Yeah, absolutely. So since you started this, there 650 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,480 have been enormous developments in the privacy sphere, right? 651 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,440 So basically, back in 2017 when you kind of started this as a 652 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:27,120 CLI project, there was no CKPS and now kind of we're talking 653 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,520 about fully homomorphic encryption, right? 654 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:37,360 Do you think these cryptographic tools could help build something 655 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:45,080 that is easier to maintain but still fully private for the 656 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,280 user? Yeah, I'm I I'm not sure. 657 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,240 I don't know. I don't know the technical 658 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:56,560 details of the ZKEPS enough to to answer. 659 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,440 OK, what What are the plans for the future of Orotky? 660 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,040 Yeah. So the plans for the future is 661 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:12,480 to basically capitalize on on having a local tool by going 662 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,400 towards the management side. Because another thing is like 663 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,200 you you wouldn't sell your your API keys, active API keys with 664 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:24,160 with with an exchange with a centralized website. 665 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,640 People have done it once at these three commas think and if 666 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,320 you've read like the they had the stating API where you had a 667 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:36,800 what was it like some kind of website where it it aggregates 668 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,880 trades from different exchanges it's called 3 commas and they 669 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,520 got hacked because and they lost a lot of money from the 670 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,840 customers because they the database got hacked so active 671 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,360 API keys were leaked and boom while with rot it would all be 672 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,560 locally OK you someone can put a kilo there on your machine but 673 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,800 then it's it's it's your fault it's not someone leaking your 674 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,360 data and we did access to your funds. 675 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,840 So we really want to capitalize on on on this a lot keep 676 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,360 offering more accounting solutions because this is 677 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,280 probably one of the things that our current users want the most 678 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:20,080 and figure out a way to well allow for easier to capitalize 679 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,360 on the open source part, allow for easier contributions and 680 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,240 maybe also incentivize them somehow because if we as a as a 681 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:32,360 project do good, so maybe also our contributors could could 682 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,120 somehow profit. So we're thinking of ways that 683 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,600 we could we could achieve this and change the architecture of 684 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,960 of the tool again capitalizing on the local part so make it 685 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,680 multi processing we want to, we are working on different demons 686 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,880 underneath doing other things because it's I mean it's a it's 687 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,200 a back end and a front end and it's doing so many things, so 688 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,640 many calculations underneath that. 689 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,320 It's already the limits of the current process and it's slow in 690 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,400 many things. So we want to I basically go to 691 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,000 a multi service architecture and some services written in 692 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,760 different languages and we're looking at at trust right now in 693 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,040 order to well, I mean my computer has how many cores and 694 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,160 I ran Rocky on on the one Python back end. 695 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,280 I mean you know how Python is, is, is single process. 696 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,560 Though this is changing with newer versions of Python, still 697 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,280 we want to go to a multi service architecture to get rid of these 698 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,120 these limitations. Super. 699 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:35,800 Yeah. No, that's super, super. 700 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,560 Interesting to hear kind of what the plans for Rocky going 701 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,520 forward are, maybe that's that's kind of change gears a little 702 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,320 bit and talk about Ethereum culture and the general 703 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,800 ecosystem. So you have been in the 704 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,000 ecosystem for 10 years, you you kind of joined in 2014, now it's 705 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,360 2024. How has how has the culture 706 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:03,120 changed in your eyes? So we grew a lot, right? 707 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,560 So I don't know what to call Ethereum culture anymore. 708 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,160 It's so many people compared to how it was before. 709 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,720 It's so many new people and we have different subcultures right 710 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,000 now. Inside the theme, we have the 711 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:25,040 regions, the digens, the the, the, the traders, the gamblers. 712 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,520 I don't know like the builders and they, we have the builders 713 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,320 who are OK, you know we don't need open source. 714 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,960 So let's go closer So the way the Builders who are like like 715 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,760 me like open source, we others who are like OK maybe let's go 716 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,360 somewhere in between So there's there's it's so big as an 717 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,920 ecosystem right now and I'm very happy and proud of that. 718 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,640 But I can't really define what is what is a theorem culture 719 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,960 anymore. It's just a lot of subcultures. 720 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,640 Yeah, I I I think, I think that's, yeah, that's that's a 721 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,720 very sad point. So if you kind of think about 722 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,920 kind of like the Ethereum O GS from back then. 723 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,280 So I recently saw again the picture from Devcon 0 and as you 724 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,000 said as you said there were literally like 25 people there. 725 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,160 Of those there are very few leftover. 726 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,240 Do you think that's kind of like Natural Chan and people are just 727 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:20,120 doing something else now? Or do you think it's something 728 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,120 that's particular to to this ecosystem? 729 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,840 And is there anyone you miss in particular? 730 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,640 Anyone you you really wish would come back? 731 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,200 Yeah, yeah. Well from Demko 0, yeah. 732 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,800 I don't know. I like, I loved Jeffrey Jeffrey 733 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,600 Weekly the basically main, the first developer of of Keith. 734 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,480 He's a really good guy. If I were to say anybody from 735 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,880 from from that picture that I just just remembered As for the 736 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,800 term, it's. Completely out. 737 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:00,520 Out of the ecosystem, right? He doesn't. 738 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,200 Yeah. Completely unlike the only time 739 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,320 that I saw his name was when someone accused him of selling 740 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,880 if in order to find his. I think he's doing a game right 741 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,240 now like a software game and some because they tracked his 742 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,720 theorem address from but in genesis and they you know try to 743 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,040 name same him in Twitter for for selling if. 744 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,400 Busted kind of selling the East that legally belongs to him. 745 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,760 What maybe we were talking about maybe a year or two ago. 746 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,640 So yeah, there is definitely a natural turn. 747 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,200 I mean, people being 10 years older, if if you're now it's 40s 748 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,280 or 50s, I mean at some point you're like OK, you know middle 749 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,440 age crisis, some get married, some with kids. 750 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,320 The turn is is natural. On the other hand, there is also 751 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,720 something that most of the people there, if they actually 752 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,440 had even kept it, probably don't need to care about anything 753 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,080 anymore. So maybe this also shows who was 754 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,240 interested in it for just, you know, like, OK, let's just make 755 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,800 something cool but make money and then retire. 756 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:16,520 And who is still here and is just building because this is 757 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,880 something really interesting. And I mean this, this thing that 758 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,680 we're building is really interesting and the people who 759 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,040 still are here in one way or another, I I, I find it really, 760 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,280 really nice. Yeah, no, it's it's it's always 761 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,000 good to kind of run into old faces. 762 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:38,280 Yeah. You're a very active Twitter on 763 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:43,040 Twitter and the things kind of you cover a lot are kind of like 764 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,280 things like privacy and free speech kind of tornado style 765 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,200 kind of project, but also security. 766 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,720 You're also pretty big in the Ethereum public goods and 767 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:58,240 protocol governance scene. So you're one of the largest 768 00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:01,640 delegates for a number of projects. 769 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,960 How? How do you choose which issues 770 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,200 to get involved in, and what makes you passionate about them? 771 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,320 Yeah, That's a good question. I I never plan to actually 772 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,400 become a, as they call it, our politician or governance 773 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,040 politician or. I have no idea how that's 774 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:20,720 happened. Really. 775 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,240 I I I really have no idea. For example, it turns out that 776 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:27,680 I'm the biggest delegate in Diva. 777 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:33,120 And they do a distributed staking validation protocol, 778 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:34,400 right? Exactly. 779 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,880 I have no idea how. Like someone told me, hey, do 780 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,040 you know what you're delegating? Diva. 781 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,840 I said, yeah, remember that. I said, OK, if anybody wants to 782 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,720 delegate to me, do that. And then someone tells me, hey, 783 00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:45,920 can you come to this telegram? We need you to vote because 784 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,880 you're the biggest delegate and I'm like, wait, what? 785 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,720 But everyone knows you, right, because you're so active on 786 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:55,520 Twitter and kind of you seem, I know I've delegated to you in 787 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,400 the past because kind of you you you seem to kind of think think 788 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,200 things out well and you know I I don't have bandwidth to kind of 789 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,640 look into all of these things and I know they're kind of if if 790 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,560 you kind of looked into it I would probably end up agreeing 791 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,320 with you. So kind of, I think this is 792 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,120 these are the reasons for which people delegate, right? 793 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,320 Probably. Probably, yeah. 794 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,760 It started probably with ENS and Gitcoin. 795 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,440 I guess because Gitcoin is something that I really love. 796 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,800 I I stopped actually being a delegate there because of issues 797 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,480 with the governance. I just said OK, I don't want 798 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:35,000 anymore, I'm just too tired. But things that try to change 799 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,600 the world like like Gitcoin, because I I find it amazing that 800 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,120 it can basically it has so many flaws. 801 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,280 I have criticized it as many times as I have said that I love 802 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,240 it. But it's amazing that you have 803 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:50,960 this idea where OK, you gather people from all around the world 804 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,200 and you fund projects and then there is a matching port and 805 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,040 these projects get more funding from from the port. 806 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,080 And we have funded with this even things outside of crypto 807 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,680 like I treated the other day about your Lib 3 which is a very 808 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:16,800 basic library in Python. So it's it's really amazing to 809 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,160 see how these primitives that we have created in in, in, in 810 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:29,440 crypto can help people build amazing stuff and fund them. 811 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:37,120 So I guess that's how I got into it, Just wanted to influence its 812 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,200 its direction. How much time does it take up 813 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,280 for you? Because kind of like following 814 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,920 like other forums, I'm involved in way fewer projects and even I 815 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,080 struggle to kind of keep up. I don't follow forums as as much 816 00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:57,320 as people probably think. If if if government relies on 817 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,720 needing to follow forums I probably don't like or or like 818 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,600 step step step away from that particular project So actively, 819 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,120 actively I think I'm mostly in optimism in ENS. 820 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:17,080 This is probably the most active ones that I, I, I I am 821 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,800 activating right now And one really cool thing that I have 822 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,920 asked of every doubt that I'm involved in I'm also involved in 823 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:31,360 hope a bit etcetera is is to get delegates having a mailing list. 824 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:36,640 So like what happened like weekly sum up this is beautiful 825 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,320 because I can just go through it and say OK that's it good good 826 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,520 info. It's it's, it's it's it's a game 827 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,360 changer are. These published somewhere. 828 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,600 Yeah, I think, I think everybody can. 829 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,800 Just like with a mailing list, right? 830 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,200 You can subscribe and then you you get it. 831 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:55,440 I think so. It's. 832 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,680 Definitely no, no, no. No, no. 833 00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:00,560 It's like the governance weekly or something like that. 834 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,640 It's it's pretty it's pretty helpful if you're a delegate 835 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,680 because then you actually can know what's happening without 836 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,480 having to be on the forums every time. 837 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,280 And then you see OK so this particular proposal is something 838 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,040 that I should look at but it it it does take time and 839 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,920 unfortunately some things take a lot more time than they should 840 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:25,360 like so ENS for example it's it's pretty smooth like it's 841 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:33,400 they have this sub groups or working groups they're the most 842 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,400 they're mostly running the Dow and then they're asking the 843 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,080 delegates to to vote on staff. And when there's a big vote 844 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,120 that's when a lot of thinking needs to happen like there was 845 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,880 now with the service providers. But mostly it's hands off 846 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,880 optimism is so much work I I don't know what the heck I'm 847 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,600 doing there. It's like so much work. 848 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:55,560 Are delegates compensated for their for their time? 849 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,120 No. And this is another problem that 850 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,840 so ENSI mean it's too little, it's it's not too much work but 851 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,320 like there is the best of work. Optimism is, is really a lot of 852 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,040 work. They say that they don't want to 853 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:16,120 so for optimism they don't want to compensate but maybe there 854 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:21,560 will be retro PDF. So there's this kind of bait of 855 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,080 sorts to get people more interested in governance. 856 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,800 But for me it would be much better if it was like, OK, so 857 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,280 this is the outside put and this is how much I get compensated. 858 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,920 Not like a little PCF because it's it's a different, I think 859 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,040 they're they're completely different things This this 860 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,520 shouldn't work like this because it really takes a lot of time. 861 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,320 Optimism is I find really cool and annoying at the same time 862 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,600 because so optimism has the foundation behind it and it's 863 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,680 not hands off. It's very hands on. 864 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,400 So this is what I don't like it. Some. 865 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,080 A lot of the times it feels like the centralization theatre as 866 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,160 opposed to like actual governance. 867 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:04,000 They are taking feedback well and they're changing it. 868 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,080 They're really trying. They have voting cycles. 869 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,960 They have seasons and every time it gets better and better still 870 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,200 hands on. The question will be if Optimism 871 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,000 Foundation wasn't actually guiding this, wouldn't would it 872 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,880 be chaos? Maybe it's better this way. 873 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,080 I, I, I, I, I don't know. Optimism does it in an 874 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,800 interesting way. The most cool thing about 875 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,560 optimism, and I find that I find really interesting, is that they 876 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:35,880 have a by camera or by chamber governance. 877 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,040 So they call it the token house and the citizen house. 878 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:44,160 The token house is the use on delegates. 879 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,080 It will delegate up to someone, and these are the token house 880 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,320 delegates. Then there's the citizen house, 881 00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:59,400 which is supposed to fight them plutocracy by having recognized 882 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,080 citizens as one person, one vote. 883 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:09,240 Right now there's 125 people I think, and they in the beginning 884 00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:12,880 only voted in the retro PCF, so all retro PDF rounds were 885 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,960 actually voted only by the bot holders. 886 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,320 So the citizens. But right now from this season, 887 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,640 they start to have a voice in the actual governance too and 888 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,160 they can basically veto almost everything. 889 00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,400 So they tried to have to experiment with this idea of of 890 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,200 two different chambers of governance so that there is no 891 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:40,160 power of plutocracy completely on the on on the on the token 892 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,320 holders and that cannot be captured or if it gets captured 893 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,440 so that it can be saved by by the citizen house. 894 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,840 It's really interesting approach I I I find it unique and I 895 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,520 really want to see how, how, how it goes. 896 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:59,080 Yeah, I think governance is it's going to, they're going to be so 897 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,040 many. If this is to work. 898 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,320 There's going to be so many upgrades. 899 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,480 So kind of like this, this one person one vote and then kind of 900 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:12,280 the delegates and kind of it's kind of it's it's too easy to 901 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:18,680 break and to spam and it's yeah. So I'm super curious to see how 902 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:23,080 that will go in the future. What makes you hopeful for the 903 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,160 road ahead for Ethereum and what worries you? 904 00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:34,080 So hopefully, hopefully I guess all the cool stuff like we're 905 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:40,200 really building really cool stuff as like I saw a tweet by 906 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,120 Peter and I I kind of agreed with it. 907 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:47,840 Peter from from Gev C Laggy. Yeah I'm not going to try to 908 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:49,800 sorry, sorry if you what's this, Peter. 909 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:56,680 But like I also was a bit guessed the EIP 1559 because I 910 00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,040 didn't think it would work or the, you know like it didn't 911 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,160 make sense to me. But you know, like, it's a 912 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,360 resounding success as an idea. And it's really. 913 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,200 So, yeah, P 1559 was the fee market, right? 914 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,160 Yes, yes, that's correct. Sorry. 915 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,960 I I yeah, I hate this when people do that and I shouldn't 916 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,040 have done this like these numbers, you know, like, you 917 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,280 know, 1547 and 4633 and I'm like, OK. 918 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:21,000 What? Yeah, I know. 919 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:22,400 Exactly. What is this? 920 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,280 Yeah, so the fee market one has worked amazingly. 921 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,960 So I think that it's probably this also goes back to the 922 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,480 people. So like the there's so many 923 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,400 smart people in this field. There's also many people smarter 924 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,680 than me, younger, talented and you know, hungry for for for 925 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,640 building beautiful stuff. I think this is the hope like 926 00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,880 all this new new new generation that is inside this ecosystem 927 00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:53,360 that we built back then. It's this is making me extremely 928 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,320 hopeful for the future. It's it's really beautiful to 929 00:59:55,320 --> 01:00:00,920 see all those young people trying to build cool stuff and 930 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,400 also them. How generous people are about 931 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,520 helping good causes. Like now with a tornado, right? 932 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,200 You see how both back when it was just Alexei Persev's case. 933 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,400 But now with that, it's both cases with Persev and Roman in 934 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:21,880 the US, how everyone just, you know, opens up and says, OK, 935 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,440 yeah, let's donate, let's help defend open source and defend 936 01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,000 privacy. So this kind of reactions and 937 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,120 this kind of people in the field really make me extremely hopeful 938 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,360 and proud to to be to be part of this ecosystem. 939 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,040 I love the way that you frame the kind of what makes you 940 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,040 hopeful, because I think kind of like young and smart people in 941 01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,520 the ecosystem. I I think you're spot on. 942 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,000 Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's amazing. 943 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:49,120 It's it's really cool to. See. 944 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,560 And people who are still in it for the right reasons, right. 945 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,200 So basically, I mean intermittently, we always kind 946 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,320 of have these faces where there's a lot of money Bros. 947 01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,400 But yeah, by and large, they're still they're still the people 948 01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,000 who are in it because they just believe in the vision. 949 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,440 Yeah, yeah, that's true. For for for what worries me, I 950 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:19,200 guess a lot of things again, like super majority of of, of, 951 01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,720 of gift, in in in stating this, this. 952 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:24,120 I had totally forgotten about it. 953 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,440 And now that it became a Twitter thing again, I'm like, oh wow, 954 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,200 that's really serious. That really worries me. 955 01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,920 Like I the moment I realized that it's so bad, I I'm really 956 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,560 worried about this. So things like that. 957 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,640 Like they call it a Black Swan event, but it's not really a 958 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,160 Black Swan if you actually talk about it and expect that it may 959 01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:44,520 happen if. You can see it coming. 960 01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,800 Yeah, yeah, I I find it weird that you would call it a Black 961 01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,720 Swan event. But also, you know, the other 962 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:57,400 thing would be the image that we have towards the outside. 963 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,920 This saddens me maybe more than worries me, but also worries me 964 01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,040 because this image. So we we, we, we tend to have a 965 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,720 very negative image right outside of the crypto space. 966 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:18,120 They just somehow associate us only with crime or scams or 967 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,320 gambling, you know, very negative words. 968 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,960 While in reality it's it's not. It's not like that. 969 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:35,400 Although there is a lot of scams, a lot of bad stuff in in 970 01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:42,920 crypto for sure. It's like the developers that 971 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,800 are just working in other non crypto fields seem to actually 972 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,400 hate developers work in crypto. Like there is a lot of actual 973 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,520 hate. I have been attacked in in let's 974 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,800 say issues in GitHub when they realized, so we are reporting a 975 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,360 a library issue somewhere and then they realize that they work 976 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,000 in crypto and they're extremely like unkind telling me to, you 977 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,800 know get off that they don't want to help me. 978 01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,360 I have heard this will happen multiple times. 979 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,600 And I mean this. I find it extremely worrying 980 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,800 because this translates later into what we see in the 981 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,800 political scene in the US, because if many people associate 982 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:20,520 something with with crime, then they can push it to be banned or 983 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:25,800 to have, well, a lot of political consequences. 984 01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,760 And this this actually really worries me because the 985 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,320 misinformation there can do a lot of damage to to to our 986 01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:38,720 sector. And it's often strongest in 987 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,400 groups that should in principle be values aligned with us. 988 01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,520 So kind of like the the people who kind of came out from the 989 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:50,200 original cypherpunk. So kind of like the CCC in in 990 01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,640 Germany or the Electronic Frontier Foundation almost 991 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,800 everyone is extremely web three critical. 992 01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:03,040 So yeah, I I I feel you. I also, I also find that very 993 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,800 worrying. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. 994 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,400 I and I don't know. You know, I normally don't worry 995 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,160 if I have a solution and I know, OK, let's go work towards that. 996 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,600 I don't know what to do here because I don't understand why 997 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,920 this is happening. OK. 998 01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:19,960 No, I mean, I can understand why. 999 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,040 Yeah, I also understand why. So basically I think kind of 1000 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,040 like being on the inside, there's a lot of scams that 1001 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,480 we're not even Privy to. So basically that kind of like 1002 01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:34,400 regular people are the target audience for and we don't even 1003 01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,240 we'd never actually end up hearing about. 1004 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:44,480 So there was like this Runaway hit podcast I think made by the 1005 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,480 BBC last week last year the the Crypto Queen or something. 1006 01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:50,920 And I had. It was literally a project that 1007 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:52,240 had. A parent lady, right? 1008 01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,920 Yeah, exactly. Had apparently raised billions 1009 01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:00,040 of dollars and I had literally never heard of her like zero 1010 01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:01,920 time. So I think kind of we're kind of 1011 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:08,280 like we're very much in this bubble where there are largely 1012 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,760 well-intentioned people and kind of like all of this scammy 1013 01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,000 underbelly of crypto, we're not Privy to it. 1014 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,280 So I think probably for every legitimate project that we know 1015 01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,360 and love, there's 20 scam projects that we've never heard 1016 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,160 of. And I think this is very much 1017 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,640 kind of how this image of crypto actually rises. 1018 01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,440 And I think kind of the way to kind of dig ours, dig ourselves 1019 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:40,120 out of this hole, I hope is by building genuinely useful 1020 01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,320 application for regular people. And I think kind of this is kind 1021 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,440 of where we where as an ecosystem kind of we need to get 1022 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:51,280 to, right? Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's 1023 01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,920 true. But I don't know how to get 1024 01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,080 there because even if we do like we have, we have, we have a lot 1025 01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:01,960 of stuff like, I mean, OK now I like advertising is something 1026 01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,480 that you guys work on in Gnosis, like the Gnosis pay, right. 1027 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,480 Like this is amazing. This is going to be super cool, 1028 01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,360 based on Monarium, which I have actually also used, right? 1029 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:15,000 And these are really like the payments, unlocking payments. 1030 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,280 It's, it's. Yeah, but it's still, it's still 1031 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,760 a promise, right. So basically it still hasn't 1032 01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,360 found. I mean it's so kind of, we're 1033 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:29,080 very hard at work to kind of make it usable for anyone who's 1034 01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:31,840 kind of on a regular new bank account. 1035 01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,320 So maybe not for your grandmother, but kind of for for 1036 01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,840 kind of regular people our age who have no crypto background, 1037 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,120 should be usable without them having to know kind of what is 1038 01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:44,840 heat phrases and so on. But we're not there yet. 1039 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,520 So kind of if you kind of look at actually users in crypto, 1040 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,960 kind of people who are there to kind of use the products because 1041 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,600 they are legitimately better than the web. 1042 01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,320 Two equivalent. I would there's I think there's 1043 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,440 literally zero. And I think kind of moving from 1044 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:07,000 a place, I think I'm super hopeful we can we can get there 1045 01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,520 and we can get there maybe this year or next year. 1046 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:15,840 Basically having real applications with real users who 1047 01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,120 are not in it because it's crypto and it's cool, but 1048 01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:22,040 because it's better than what they used to have, I think we 1049 01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,480 can get there. And I think this is, this will 1050 01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,840 have to be the way to kind of get out of this, you know, 1051 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,040 public relations nightmare that we're in at the moment. 1052 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:38,520 Yeah yeah, the we we need to find like well, not exactly find 1053 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,600 PMF, but it would be nice to have a good good applications. 1054 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,680 But I still think of the stuff that crypto does a lot better 1055 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,920 than anything else right now, which is, I mean payments, it's 1056 01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,200 it's nothing can do this as well as crypto. 1057 01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,720 I like paying people in outside of the EU, paying people in 1058 01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,120 Africa. So we have some independent 1059 01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,120 contractors in the Rocky that work some hours for us, right? 1060 01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:03,720 And we pay them through through crypto. 1061 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:09,160 If you try to pay Africa, sometimes Asia also, right? 1062 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,200 Yeah, so we tried, even with I don't know what other solutions 1063 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,279 are there like PayPal or or Wise transfer. 1064 01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,479 We tried wise. Oh my God, it's first of all so 1065 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:25,560 slow, then expensive. The percentage on the amount and 1066 01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,600 the second payment that we tried to send, it took about a month 1067 01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,800 because it got somehow flagged. And then we had to talk with 1068 01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,680 support and. Look, you're you're preaching to 1069 01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:36,080 the choir here. I totally agree. 1070 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,439 But I think kind of then kind of if you look at the other side, 1071 01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,840 the question is kind of like how do you off rampant, how do you, 1072 01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:46,000 how do you make the stables accessible so that you can 1073 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,960 actually spend them for groceries and your rent And I 1074 01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:50,479 think this is still way too hard. 1075 01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:54,680 So I think kind of, yeah, I mean I think kind of it's potential 1076 01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,920 improvement is definitely there and I think we can get there. 1077 01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,279 But I think kind of making it more usable. 1078 01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:05,640 I think this kind of needs to be kind of like priority one for 1079 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,840 now. Yeah, yeah for for countries 1080 01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,960 like for Asian countries from what I I I heard they just use 1081 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,359 you know like exchanges like like I I do normally for for off 1082 01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:17,240 ramping in Africa. It's extremely interesting. 1083 01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:22,880 They use this like PP2P stuff. They they just do Crypto P2P 1084 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,680 just like we used to do. Not so much anymore like Local 1085 01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,920 Bitcoins and Local. Yeah Local bitcoins there was 1086 01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:35,560 there was a fun time yeah cool left Harris it's been a it's 1087 01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,760 been an absolute pleasure to speak with you and have you on 1088 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:43,680 this podcast for the first time for real after 10 years of kind 1089 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,160 of working together where if people are interested in trying 1090 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,240 out rough key or contributing where should where should we 1091 01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,120 send them. For for contributing it would be 1092 01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,600 a GitHub and Discord. So GitHub to see the code and 1093 01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,320 Discord to basically chat with us ask us any questions we are. 1094 01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,800 We're extremely welcome to contributors and to download it. 1095 01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,200 You can also download this from GitHub but we have it on our 1096 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,640 website likeerotki.com. You can just go there and press 1097 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:15,600 download. Depending on the IT will 1098 01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:17,760 probably detect your operating system and then download the 1099 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,880 proper binary and just try it and then come to discord and 1100 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,520 tell us what you think. Perfect. 1101 01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,720 Thank you so much for coming on Lev Harris and see you soon. 1102 01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:28,640 Yeah. 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