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This is epicenter episode 300 
with guest Erik Voorhees. 

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00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:22,400
This episode of epicenter is 
brought to you by trail of bits.

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The regular ticket price with 
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Hi, welcome to epicenter. 
My name is Sebastian Cujo today 

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is episode 301. 
Can attach, whatever, 

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significance, they like to an 
episode with a few zeros on it. 

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But if anything, I think we can 
use these Milestones to stop and

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take a step back and look at our
trajectory through a more 

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mindful lens. 
It's astonishing that we've been

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doing epicenter for five and a 
half years now, It started as an

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experiment in late 2013 or early
2014. 

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And I don't think that neither 
of us Brian, or I thought that 

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it would become one of the most 
recognized and certainly one of 

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the longest-running podcasts in 
the space. 

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We've recorded 300 episodes with
guests who come on the show to 

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share their stories, their 
ideas, and their vision for 

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where the space is going and 
through that. 

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We've Learn so much. 
And our audience also has 

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learned so much with us. 
It's been really a journey with 

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the audience also learning as 
the space is evolving, and 

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that's been just incredible. 
I want to take a minute to 

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acknowledge our team and the 
incredible talent that makes 

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epicenter possible met her sunny
and Federica. 

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They have a passion for Learning
and a desire to spread knowledge

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with the community. 
And these are really some of the

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founding principles Opals that 
Brian. 

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And I found that the show on in 
2014. 

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We started the show because we 
wanted to learn about the space 

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and we thought that sharing that
knowledge with the space, was a 

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great way to learn and mayor 
sunny and Federica, they share 

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this Vision. 
There's also a production team 

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which we rarely get a chance to 
mention on the show, but they 

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also play a huge role in making 
this show possible, and putting 

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out the episodes every week, so 
vedran or audio. 

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Near who's been with us since 
the very beginning sheena's our 

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cover designer. 
He makes those great low poly 

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images. 
That a lot of you praise us for 

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PETA. 
Our production manager, who 

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makes sure that everything is 
running smoothly from scheduling

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all the way to putting out the 
episodes every week Anna, our 

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accountant who make sure that 
all our books are in order and 

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the company's running smoothly 
and amp are marketing. 

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Intern who is on social media. 
Sharing the episodes every week 

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and creating content on medium. 
The podcast would really not be 

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what it is today without them 
and without their dedication. 

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It's incredible that tens of 
thousands of you listen to the 

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show, every week and many of you
have been for several years. 

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Just last week I was in Berlin 
and as always when I'm hanging 

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out at full node I met some new 
listeners and then one guy who 

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told me that we were a major 
part of his Early Education when

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he first started getting 
interested in blockchain and we 

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hear these stories all the time 
from people whenever we're in a 

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place where there's 
concentration of blockchain 

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people, We meet listeners and we
hear their stories and it's just

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so incredibly gratifying because
we never set out to really make 

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a change in people's lives. 
But it's sort of a secondary 

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effect that we really didn't 
anticipate. 

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So, we meet people who tell us 
that they found their first job 

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because of what they learned on 
epicenter or through the 

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connections, they made from 
listening to epicenter. 

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Brian was telling you what the 
guy he met recently, who told 

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him that he made a lot of money 
from the Investments That He 

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made from listening to 
epicenter, so that's always 

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great to hear every time I meet 
a listener internally. 

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I kind of bow with humility from
hearing their stories. 

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So thank you for listening. 
Thank you for being with us and 

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for continuing to be with us 
throughout the years. 

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I've learned so much from doing 
this podcast. 

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I've met so many incredible 
people traveled all around the 

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world and I think it's a trip 
man that my job is to run a 

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podcast company. 
With amazing co-hosts with an 

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amazing team in a fascinating 
industry and we're going to keep

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doing it as long as there's a 
blockchain space and as long as 

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we're interested in it and as 
long as there's a good business 

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model to run around, it will 
keep doing the podcast. 

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So we hope to see you see you 
here for episode 400 500 600 and

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so on. 
On the heels of that, I've got 

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an announcement about an 
important change. 

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That's coming to epicenter. 
Starting today, epicenter will 

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continue as an audio only 
podcast and the video version 

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that we've been putting out to 
YouTube. 

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For the last several years, will
cease to exist will still post 

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episodes to YouTube, so you can 
continue to listen to the 

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episodes there. 
Only you won't see our faces 

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anymore. 
This is a decision that we've 

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taken a lot of time and care to.
Consider and I want to share 

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some of the reasons why we 
decide to do this. 

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The main reason we're doing this
is to remove a lot of the 

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overhead that producing video 
puts on the production process. 

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It might not seem like a lot 
when you're watching the show 

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but producing video is time and 
resource intensive. 

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It puts a strain on scheduling 
primarily because it imposes. 

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Our hosts in our guests to use 
certain types of equipment to 

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Record the show from a setting 
that is appropriate for video 

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recording to have proper 
lighting, Etc. 

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There's also the production 
overhead and time required to 

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create those videos and push 
them to YouTube. 

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And finally producing video ads 
is incredibly time-consuming. 

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So, when we looked at all that 
and then dug deeper into the 

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actual analytics on YouTube and 
compared those to the engagement

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rates that we see with audio, we
thought that it didn't make 

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sense to continue. 
So I really hope that for the 

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few of you who really watch the 
show on YouTube and expect the 

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video on YouTube that you'll 
continue to follow the podcast. 

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As I said, we'll continue to 
post the audio to YouTube. 

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You just won't see your faces 
anymore. 

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And you can also follow us on 
all the other great platforms or

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you publish. 
Whether it's iTunes, Spotify, 

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Stitcher, or any other podcast 
app, you can find us there and 

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we hope you'll continue to 
follow the podcast. 

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If you want to learn more about 
this and the reasons behind this

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change, I put a post up on 
medium medium.com, epicenter 

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podcast. 
You can go there and read more 

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about this change and why we're 
doing this. 

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Our last announcement before 
today's guest dap Khan is coming

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next week, it is on August 21st 
and 23rd at the Technical 

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University in Berlin. 
You can still get tickets and 

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get 20% off with the discount 
code epicenter. 

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Adapt con 2019 at def con dot io
on the 22nd. 10:00 a.m. in the 

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main chain. 
The main room will be recording 

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the second edition of epicenter 
live. 

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Sunny Federica and myself, I'll 
be moderating a panel on user 

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experience and ux on the 21st, I
know, Sonny is also moderating a

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panel on governance and feta is 
also on a panel, you can get 

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more details, a.com dot IO and 
actually, I just found out about

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this. 
There's actually adapt con 

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podcast, so you can go to dab 
con dot IO / podcast to hear 

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those episodes. 
And then on the Thursday, the 

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Second will be doing a drinks 
meet up at a bar next to the 

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university. 
You can go to epicenter, dot 

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rocks, / Berlin, meet up to 
register and get more 

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information as it comes out. 
So come have a drink with us. 

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It'll be fun. 
Our Guest today is Erik 

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Voorhees. 
Many of you will recognize Eric 

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as the founder and CEO of 
shape-shift and we had Eric on 

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the podcast a number of times in
the past. 

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So they can I interview Derek 
and we spoke about a number of 

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things. 
Our main focus for this 

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discussion was shape-shifts 
brand-new product release which 

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summer calling shape-shift 2.0. 
It includes a number of 

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interesting new features, 
including a portfolio management

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platform that allows you to 
manage all your assets in one 

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place. 
They also have Hardware Wallet 

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support and are built on an 
entirely new infrastructure. 

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One important distinction with 
this new product is the fact 

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that users are now obligated to 
create an account and perform 

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kyc. 
If you've been following 

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shape-shift for a while, you 
know that it's Hallmark has 

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always been its Simplicity the 
ability to send tokens to an 

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address and receive an exchange 
for other tokens on another 

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address without having to create
an account while this has 

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changed recently. 
And we talked to Eric about this

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change and why they decided it 
to start doing kyc as always. 

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It's great to get people like 
Eric to open up about where they

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think the ecosystem is heading. 
And so we talked about whether 

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or not he thinks Bitcoin is 
still fulfilling its initial 

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Vision. 
We talked about aetherium as 

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well and we also got into the 
future of money a little bit. 

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And one can't bring out the 
topic these days without 

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mentioning Libra. 
And so we talked about Libra and

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got his thoughts on where he 
thinks that currency could take 

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us and what it represents. 
Hence, for the future of money, 

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we did disagree a little bit on 
that topic where Eric's very 

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u.s. libertarian views did clash
with my somewhat more European 

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liberal views, but it was all in
good fun and it's always great 

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to get Eric's insights from that
perspective. 

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So without further, delay here 
is our interview with Erik 

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Voorhees. 
Hi. 

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So we're here with Erik 
Voorhees. 

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Eric is the CEO of shape-shift 
and third time, coming to the 

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podcasts been on. 
I was just checking before the 

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show and actually, it's been two
years last time was in July of 

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2017. 
So iarc, thanks for coming back.

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On the show. 
Yeah, thanks for having me on. 

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And so we're going to talk about
a lot of stuff today including 

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shape-shifts brand new platform.
But also as always think it's 

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interesting to get your your 
thoughts and sort of your views 

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on where the ecosystem is that 
moment and how things are 

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progressing since you've been in
this, in the space for quite a 

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while. 
And so I'd love to get your 

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thoughts on on that stuff as 
well. 

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Yeah, first, let's talk about 
shapes so you guys celebrate 

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your fifth anniversary this 
month? 

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Congratulations? 
Yeah, yesterday yesterday, okay?

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So as we're recording, this 
shape shift is Just over five 

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years old. 
Let's talk a little bit about 

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the journey. 
How did you get here? 

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And how do you feel about the 
last five years generally? 

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Yeah, well when when we started,
I didn't set about to create a 

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company that would, you know, 
have 75 employees and, you know,

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be doing something important. 
Five years later. 

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It was just really a simple tool
that I felt needed to be built. 

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And so, you know, in the same 
way that the Satoshi dice back 

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in the day, got started as a 
side project shape-shift 

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started. 
As a side project, something 

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that just seemed seemed useful 
and interesting to build. 

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And so we built it and then 
yeah, it was July 29th of 2014 

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that the first transaction 
occurred and ever. 

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Since then it just you know, 
just been growing organically. 

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And we, we've gone through all 
the, you know, ups and downs of 

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multiple crypto cycles and 
through many different products.

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And, you know, we've now 
attached ourselves to the crazy 

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rocket ship of the crypto 
industry and but somewhere along

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the way, I became a real 
business. 

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And so now, I run every day as 
my as my job. 

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And looking back. 
What is it that, you know, has 

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surprised you the most about how
the company has evolved or other

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product has evolved since the 
that first transaction on July 

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29th? 
I think like what was the big 

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eye-opening thing for me was 
really that once you get past, 

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you know, ten or fifteen or 
Twenty employees, the company is

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really about building an 
organization of people and I you

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know, kind of naively thought of
it as As product first, like I 

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see products, I build products, 
I like products and but to do 

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that at scale requires that the 
actual building of an 

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organization of people not a 
product built on technology and 

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so that transition I think for 
me was very difficult and one 

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that I've been learning and 
trying to grow into and I've 

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never done this before at the 
scale. 

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And so, just a lot of a lot of 
stressful, learning of how to do

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these kind of things. 
And we have all the chaos of the

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crypto industry. 
And also all the chaos of a 

238
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We'll start up kind of tied into
one into one Beast. 

239
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So it's been extremely 
fulfilling, but, you know, huge 

240
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challenge any interesting 
anecdotes to share here about 

241
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this journey of learning 
lessons. 

242
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Yeah? 
Like, when you start a new 

243
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project, you you surround 
yourself with people who are, 

244
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you know, your friends are who 
are people that, you know, and 

245
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you can sort of implicitly trust
them because you know them. 

246
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Well and then as you grow you 
have this sense that like the 

247
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people around you are always 
going to be trustworthy and good

248
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and and they're not you you get 
to a certain size and you will 

249
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inevitably bring into your 
organization. 

250
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,500
People that are not good and 
this, you know, this can range 

251
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from just someone who's 
incompetent to someone who is 

252
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to, is a thief, which we dealt 
with that, you know, in 2016, 

253
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when we had our internal guy, 
steal a bunch of money from us. 

254
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And that, you know, that's been 
a challenge to realize that a 

255
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:45,100
lot of people, it sucks to have 
to put your guard up like that. 

256
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,400
But after you get to a certain 
point in a business it happens 

257
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kind of naturally. 
I understand what is you just 

258
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,400
launched shape-shift 2.0. 
What is it? 

259
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:58,900
And what excites you most about 
this release? 

260
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I've kind of avoided calling a 
shape-shifting point 0 because 

261
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,900
it's so cliche. 
But really that is a good 

262
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:07,000
description of. 
It is a brand-new version of our

263
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,200
product and the the good way to 
describe it is that the 

264
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,800
shape-shift 1.0 was a tool to 
convert one cryptocurrency into 

265
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,900
another and to make that fast 
and easy for people and to do. 

266
00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:22,200
So in a non-custodial way. 
Way, the new shape shift allows 

267
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,200
that same thing, so people can 
still use the new shape shift to

268
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,000
convert one crypto into another,
but it also brings that kind of 

269
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,500
self custody principle to the 
rest of someone's crypto 

270
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:37,800
management. 
So it is a wallet, it is a Fiat 

271
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,500
on and off ramp, you can buy and
sell Bitcoin from your bank, you

272
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:45,300
can store all your various 
cryptos safely it integrates 

273
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,600
with Harbor wallet, so you can 
keep them safely stored offline.

274
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,600
But still Is a normal web 
browser to interact with your 

275
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,100
portfolio. 
And so, basically, it's meant to

276
00:15:54,108 --> 00:15:57,200
be, you know, a self custody 
alternative to something, like 

277
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,800
coinbase, a really simple and 
good ux that normal people can 

278
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,200
use to interact with crypto 
Technologies, but done without 

279
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,900
us having control of users keys.
So that's kind of the theme that

280
00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:13,300
that I've always wanted this 
company to build on was one, in 

281
00:16:13,308 --> 00:16:15,600
which people are sovereign over 
their own wealth. 

282
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,400
And I think if, if the crypto 
Revolution ins and it just ends 

283
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,600
up with a bunch of custodians, 
new custodians, you know, the 

284
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,100
coin basis instead of PayPal's 
and Banks before it then not 

285
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:31,700
really much has changed at all. 
And so we're trying to take a, 

286
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:34,400
you know, a more difficult 
approach but one that I think is

287
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,600
more valuable over the long term
which is to build a highly 

288
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,000
performance. 
Great ux crypto platform in a 

289
00:16:41,008 --> 00:16:43,400
way that people maintain control
of their keys. 

290
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,500
So, that's the idea. 
So we'll talk about about about 

291
00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:49,200
the features of this new shape 
shift. 

292
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,300
We'll see. 
College 5420. 

293
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:51,800
Let's just call the new shapes 
if I guess. 

294
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,100
You know, one of the things I 
think that people will notice 

295
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,700
and have been noticing for some 
time because this has been the 

296
00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:02,000
case for as far as I know at 
least a year I think is that in 

297
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,500
the beginning you would go to 
shape-shift you would put an 

298
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:09,200
address and you would send money
to the address that was provided

299
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,000
by shape-shift and that was it a
few minutes. 

300
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,000
You you had your current you 
know the currency was exchanged.

301
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:18,700
Now you have to register and you
have to do kyc. 

302
00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:22,300
In fact, I Third, for the new 
shape shift today and did the 

303
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:25,599
kyc, the process is great. 
It's like really easy to five 

304
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:30,200
minutes and I was approved in 
like, no time to talk about 

305
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:36,800
this, the shift from a service 
which in when shape-shift used 

306
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,500
to be a sponsor of the. 
So we used to say it was as easy

307
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,500
as putting on your slippers. 
And now they're you, now you 

308
00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,200
need to tie the shoes laces as 
well. 

309
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:44,600
Yeah, which is a little bit 
harder. 

310
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,500
Why, why did you go from a 
product where you didn't have to

311
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:51,100
restrict your now? 
Where we have to register and do

312
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,200
kyc in all this. 
Yeah, it's a great question. 

313
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:56,900
It's obviously not because we 
wanted to. 

314
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,000
So let's start by saying that 
sheep shift was built really to 

315
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,200
to protect customers. 
And, you know, in the beginning 

316
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,400
that meant to me to really 
important. 

317
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,000
Tenets, one was not having any 
custody at all and allowing the 

318
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,700
user to hold their own keys. 
And the second was, was not 

319
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:17,100
having personal information of 
the user and allowing people to 

320
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:19,800
keep that to themselves. 
I don't want You know who 

321
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,400
someone is. 
I don't need to know who someone

322
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,900
is in order to process a 
transaction for them and they 

323
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:27,300
don't want me to have that 
information either so that 

324
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,100
should be the end of it and when
you take people's information, 

325
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,100
you are inevitably endangering 
them. 

326
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,300
Because now your warehousing 
information that can be hacked 

327
00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:37,900
and lost and companies, large 
and small governments, large and

328
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,400
small have problems with these 
kind of hacks where, you know, 

329
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,000
millions of Records get lost and
stolen, it's a huge problem. 

330
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000
And so I never wanted to deal 
with that. 

331
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,000
And when we started shape-shift,
It was comfortably enough in the

332
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,200
gray area that it wasn't clear, 
whether whether certain 

333
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,500
Financial Regulators would 
require us to do that. 

334
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,300
There were arguments sort of, on
all sides of that question. 

335
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:04,000
And we just figured we would 
continue forward and keep 

336
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,700
analyzing it as we grew. 
And basically, you know, in the 

337
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:13,600
2017, bubble shape-shift group 
massively and we, you know, we 

338
00:19:13,608 --> 00:19:19,100
got to the size where we decided
to invest, you know, I literally

339
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:21,600
millions. 
Is of dollars in further legal 

340
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,900
work to analyze every Contour of
these complicated Financial 

341
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,500
regulations. 
And basically from that what 

342
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,900
came out of it was that we felt 
it was too risky to continue 

343
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,400
that model without taking kyc 
from users. 

344
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,600
This was really like the most 
existential struggle I've ever 

345
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,800
dealt with in my life it was 
probably six months of Agony and

346
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,400
and stress trying to figure out 
what were the rules. 

347
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,300
Exactly what were the risks. 
How were they? 

348
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:51,900
For it in various places. 
If we needed to collect 

349
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:53,300
information, what would it need 
to be? 

350
00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:55,900
And among all users are just 
certain ones. 

351
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,000
And you know, every every aspect
of this question, We examined 

352
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:01,700
and ultimately came to the 
decision that we had to collect 

353
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:05,200
kyc information on all users 
that were trading one crypto for

354
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,700
another. 
This was dismal news for me, you

355
00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:13,000
know, dismal realization and 
conclusion to come to because we

356
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,900
knew that it would be bad for 
our customers. 

357
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:18,300
We knew it would be bad for us 
as a business, but we felt that 

358
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:20,100
we had to do it. 
So that we I wouldn't get thrown

359
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,900
in a cage and the whole company 
shut down and that wouldn't be 

360
00:20:22,908 --> 00:20:24,900
good for customers or employees 
or anyone. 

361
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:27,000
And then the story would be 
over. 

362
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,600
So that was kind of the 
existential problem, we face and

363
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,300
it was rough. 
Ultimately, I decided we should 

364
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:38,600
play the long game and if I'm 
going to fight for financial 

365
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,900
privacy, I need to be able to do
it from a company that is big 

366
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:45,300
and powerful and strong and has 
that voice rather than trying to

367
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:48,700
do it, you know, shut down and 
thrown in a cage somewhere. 

368
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,900
Other that strategy is the right
one or not. 

369
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,400
We will see, you know, check 
back in with us in five years or

370
00:20:53,408 --> 00:20:56,200
ten years, see what we're doing,
and see what we're advocating, 

371
00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:00,900
but that principle of, of 
encouraging and enabling people 

372
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:03,900
to be private in their finances.
I think is an important one and 

373
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:07,300
the fact that we can't allow 
that on our platform anymore is 

374
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:09,800
really unfortunate. 
And we understand why, why 

375
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,600
customers don't like that. 
We don't like it either. 

376
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,500
For now, we have to do it. 
So can you look beyond the 

377
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:18,500
regulation that you're complying
with? 

378
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,200
Do you see any good in doing 
kyc? 

379
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,100
Or is it to you? 
Just is it literally just a 

380
00:21:24,108 --> 00:21:27,000
nuisance? 
It's not a nuisance. 

381
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,100
It's worse than a nuisance. 
I think it's unethical. 

382
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,000
I think it is unethical to force
people to give up their personal

383
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,300
information when they don't want
to. 

384
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,200
So I have a moral problem with 
it and does good come of it 

385
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,400
maybe I mean yeah once in a 
while once in a while by 

386
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,400
companies spying on everyone 
they can sometimes catch a bad 

387
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,100
guy a little more easily. 
But to do that you basically in 

388
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:53,700
danger, you know, all the 
innocent people and you can go 

389
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,100
down a very orwellian Road. 
Of trying to catch bad guys. 

390
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:02,800
And always, then interfering and
impeding on the freedoms of good

391
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,200
people. 
This is kind of the lesson of of

392
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,700
tyranny, broadly in history, so 
I don't, I don't support that. 

393
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,600
I think, I think most people are
good, I think people have a 

394
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,900
default right to privacy and I 
think they should be left alone.

395
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:17,300
If there is suspicion of a 
crime, then trying to get 

396
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:20,300
information about that person is
one thing, but forcing you to 

397
00:22:20,308 --> 00:22:23,200
get information about those 
people when there's not even 

398
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,500
suspicion of a crime, I think is
highly unethical. 

399
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,000
This is a position that I 
wholeheartedly agree with and 

400
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,100
have been become more and more 
aware of, obviously, like, since

401
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:38,100
being in a crypto space, and 
I've only highly highly 

402
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,800
frustrating as well that, you 
know, it seems to be that 

403
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,100
Society is moving in this 
direction more generally. 

404
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,500
I mean, we had Jerry Brito on a 
few weeks ago who wrote this 

405
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:51,400
paper defending defending cash 
and the need for cash great 

406
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,200
piece. 
And, you know, they're doing 

407
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,900
great work in this field and his
position is Is trying to educate

408
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:03,700
lawmakers and and law 
enforcement officers who he 

409
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:08,200
feels are mostly Patriots and 
would defend the right to 

410
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,300
privacy and freedom. 
I guess in the American context,

411
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,400
makes a lot of sense but also 
you know outside said outside 

412
00:23:15,408 --> 00:23:17,900
the American context we're 
recording this from Germany at 

413
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,600
the moment where most places at 
least here in Berlin you can 

414
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,800
only pay in cash. 
But I think that even though you

415
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,700
know there's this The idea that 
you people should be free and 

416
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,400
have read the Privacy that that 
is not the directions, in which 

417
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,600
the world is going, definitely 
not. 

418
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,200
We look at Inter National 
regulation. 

419
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,200
Financial regulation is not 
going in this direction. 

420
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,400
Payment systems are not going in
this direction. 

421
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:47,100
Do you feel that the future is a
little Bleak? 

422
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,800
Are you lost? 
Hope for a future in which 

423
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:54,600
people continue to have some 
form of financial Financial 

424
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,900
Freedom and and most Typically 
privacy and their transactions? 

425
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,800
Yeah, I think the world without 
cryptocurrencies would be very 

426
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,900
Bleak and getting worse and 
worse. 

427
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,300
I mean, certainly all 
governments around the world are

428
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:14,900
unanimously in favor of Greater 
surveillance and control of 

429
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:19,200
their people. 
That's kind of a truism and in a

430
00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:22,000
world where all money is 
controlled by central banks, and

431
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,200
the banking system, which 
extends from it really the 

432
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,100
world's Financial system is 
simply a branch or a tentacle of

433
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:33,800
the Minute self. 
And I think that's that's pretty

434
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,600
frightening and dystopian and 
getting worse and then Along 

435
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,500
Comes this crazy crypto 
phenomenon which which does two 

436
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:43,800
things. 
One it provides technology that 

437
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,200
allows privacy so there are 
certain certain cryptos that are

438
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,000
encrypted in even something like
Bitcoin. 

439
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,800
Well it's not perfectly private 
brings privacy in ways that 

440
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,600
credit card, certainly do not 
have but more than that it also 

441
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,700
provides complete saw. 
Aren T over your assets. 

442
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,500
Meaning meaning control over 
them. 

443
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,600
So when you can self custody, 
your own assets, you are not 

444
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,400
dependent on anyone else to be 
able to send or receive that. 

445
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,900
And regardless of, whether you 
can do that, privately, those 

446
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,700
are kind of separate questions, 
but you always have the power to

447
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:17,400
send Bitcoin. 
You always have the power to 

448
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,000
receive Bitcoin. 
And that's incredibly inspiring 

449
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000
and hopeful. 
So I think the future of 

450
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,700
humanity is a good one, but as 
the world struggles with this 

451
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:32,300
question of moving, from a Ott 
and Bank based Financial system 

452
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:34,900
to a blockchain and crypto based
Financial system. 

453
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,100
Which I think is inevitable. 
There's going to be a lot of 

454
00:25:37,108 --> 00:25:39,300
struggle along the way because 
that really changes how the 

455
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,400
world Works in. 
A lot of people are not going to

456
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,200
be very happy about that. 
So there's an easy way to go 

457
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,400
about this in terms of 
shape-shift. 

458
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:51,000
I mean easy in a theoretical 
sense, not in a practical sense.

459
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,900
So shape-shift is halfway 
decentralized in the way that 

460
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:58,000
the settlement there is 
decentralized, but the 

461
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,500
architecture on on top isn't, 
how was this design decision 

462
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,200
made? 
Do you think if you had gone all

463
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,100
the way towards the 
centralization, even for the 

464
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,900
architecture, on top, you could 
have fog on the kyc that you 

465
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,600
find. 
So repugnant. 

466
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,400
Yeah, great question. 
Yes, a decentralization exists 

467
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,400
on a gradient. 
It's not a binary thing. 

468
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,100
Where you're either 
decentralized or not, there are 

469
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,200
degrees of decentralization 
shape shift is more 

470
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,100
decentralized in something like 
coinbase but it's not it's less 

471
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:32,000
decentralized than a true decks 
obviously and even among dex's 

472
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,900
you have degrees of 
decentralization. 

473
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,700
So yeah in the theoretically 
most decentralized design of a 

474
00:26:40,708 --> 00:26:45,400
decks where the individual 
Peter's themselves are 

475
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,500
decentralized. 
There's no corporate entity. 

476
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,400
There's no Central party 
whatsoever. 

477
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,400
Yeah, I mean that software 
doesn't comply with anything 

478
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800
because it can't. 
So that's that's cool. 

479
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,500
And I'm very glad that there are
projects like that out there 

480
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:00,900
that are working toward that 
end. 

481
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,000
And then on the full opposite 
side of the spectrum are 

482
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,200
centralized the companies that 
especially once they grow past a

483
00:27:07,208 --> 00:27:10,300
certain scale have to be very 
careful about complying with 

484
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:12,800
laws because ultimately they can
get shut down and thrown in 

485
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,700
cages and and there's there 
exists, you know, kind of Middle

486
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:18,400
Ground between those things. 
Where it's a question of, how 

487
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,600
much risk people want to take 
over the last year, we saw one 

488
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,900
or two or three decks has 
Implement kyc and accounts on 

489
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:28,900
themselves, which people didn't 
think would happen. 

490
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,400
Because the creators of the 
dex's were known, some of them 

491
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,200
are actual corporate entities 
themselves. 

492
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,500
So even though the technology 
and the exchange was 

493
00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,800
decentralized, it was it was 
operated by a central company. 

494
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:44,100
So these are all these are all 
questions that I think every 

495
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:47,300
Every entity in the crypto 
ecosystem struggles with. 

496
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,800
And frankly, I'm just glad that 
there are different models for 

497
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,000
people to try. 
That's one of the strengths of 

498
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,800
the crypto industries that 
people can try every model from 

499
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,600
from the coinbase model. 
All the way to the most 

500
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,000
decentralized thing like a like 
a Bitcoin itself and everything 

501
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,700
in between. 
That's what makes this so strong

502
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:07,600
is that there's no single, 
there's no single model, no 

503
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,200
single weakness because it's 
diverse. 

504
00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:15,700
Let's talk about security, you 
know, dabs are pretty unique 

505
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:18,400
because unlike other types of 
software, they can hold 

506
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,000
astronomical amounts of value. 
That's why getting systems 

507
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,800
audited, creating robust 
security processes and fostering

508
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,200
a culture of security in your 
organization is so important. 

509
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:33,000
And to do this, you should only 
trust experts with real security

510
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,500
expertise. 
There are a lot of security 

511
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,400
firms in the blockchain space, 
but few have the experience, and

512
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,000
track record of trails B. 
And they've been in business 

513
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,400
since 2012 long before. 
Things like the Dow hack or even

514
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,500
imaginable. 
Trail of B works with your team 

515
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:48,600
to audit every aspect of your 
project and smart contract. 

516
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,400
Code is just the beginning, 
they'll help you implement best 

517
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,100
practices around things like 
devops key storage and user 

518
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,500
facing applications. 
Once your software has been 

519
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,900
rigorously tested and reviewed 
by trail of B, they'll provide 

520
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:01,300
the tools. 
You need to make sure that your 

521
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,800
code remains safe over every new
commit. 

522
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:07,000
They can even put a software 
security expert at your team's 

523
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,900
disposal will give you advice 
and answer your questions when 

524
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,000
you need them, it's like having 
your own security. 

525
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,300
Engineer on staff, but don't 
take my word for it. 

526
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,800
Go to their Publications. 
Repo on GitHub to read their 

527
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,500
papers presentations and 
Security reviews, it's no wonder

528
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:24,300
teams like parity status new 
Cipher and organizations like 

529
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,900
Facebook and DARPA. 
Trust KB for their security 

530
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,800
audits to learn more, go to 
Trails pets.com and if you 

531
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,800
decide to reach out make sure 
you let them know. 

532
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,200
You heard about them on 
epicenter. 

533
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,000
We'd like to thank trail of bits
for their support. 

534
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:41,200
Do you have plans in the future 
to further decentralize the 

535
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,600
underlying layers? 
And the Stag on me? 

536
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:47,800
One thing that I think is an 
interesting thought experiment, 

537
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,100
just to say that shape-shift 
would integrate with with 

538
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:54,100
something like you to swab or 
compound or some of these 

539
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:58,100
decentralized Equity pools that 
are, you know, fairly fairly 

540
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,200
easy to, I suppose. 
I mean, from a technical 

541
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,300
perspective, fairly fairly easy 
to integrate with, is this 

542
00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:06,400
something that you feel would be
valuable to your users. 

543
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:11,500
Is or could be offered as a 
secondary product where bky C 

544
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:14,300
would be not as relevant or 
useful. 

545
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:18,200
Yeah, it's certainly something 
that we're considering in the 

546
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,900
new shape-shift platform Casey 
is actually not required for 

547
00:30:21,908 --> 00:30:24,100
everything. 
You can use it without kyc, but 

548
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:27,200
to trade through our Market, 
making, you need a ky seat 

549
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,200
account. 
We need to do some further legal

550
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,900
review on if and to what extent 
allowing users to directly 

551
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:36,400
interact with dex's through the 
platform. 

552
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400
Would have kyc requirements. 
That is unclear. 

553
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,100
At this point might be a 
question of risk tolerance. 

554
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,600
So, yeah, it's absolutely 
absolutely worth. 

555
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,300
Considering it's going to be a 
constant struggle for the coming

556
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:56,100
years and it's going to be hard 
for any company to allow people 

557
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,000
to be totally Anonymous. 
And so, you're going to get this

558
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,600
trade-off between companies that
can build software. 

559
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,600
That's very useful, and easy and
convenient and can help grow and

560
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,200
bring more people into the 
industry. 

561
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:11,000
But that may not themselves be 
able to be the ones who advanced

562
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:15,300
privacy that might need to be 
done more on the on the protocol

563
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:18,100
level. 
Okay, so let's talk about the 

564
00:31:18,108 --> 00:31:20,200
product little bit because we 
haven't really touched on that 

565
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,900
so far. 
You talk about what's new in 

566
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,100
this new version of shape-shift 
and what people can expect when,

567
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,300
when they created the account 
and past this Escape by sea. 

568
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,000
Yeah. 
So again, you don't need to do 

569
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000
that in order to use it, you 
only need to use do kyc, if you 

570
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,000
want to be trading. 
Obviously, a lot of people want 

571
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,100
to trade, so they need to do the
kyc then, but a good way to 

572
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:41,400
think about it. 
For people who haven't tried it 

573
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,400
before is right now, it supports
two different key storage 

574
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400
mechanisms, Your keep key or a 
treasure later on we'll add 

575
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,900
others. 
Like Ledger will add a 

576
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:54,300
software-only version will add a
mobile version so we'll keep 

577
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:56,600
adding more ways for users to 
hold their own keys. 

578
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:59,400
But we wanted to start with 
Hardware both because that's the

579
00:31:59,408 --> 00:32:02,300
best practice, I think, for 
people who want to get something

580
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:05,000
that's very easy to use and also
very safe men. 

581
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,100
Also it just seemed like a more 
stable foundation for us to 

582
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:09,900
build the first version of this 
platform. 

583
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,500
So right now, if you have a Kiki
or a treasure you can use the 

584
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:16,400
shape-shift platform and it 
basically becomes a much better.

585
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,700
Interface for your Hardware 
wallet Holdings so you can see 

586
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,700
your entire portfolio together. 
You can watch, you know, the 

587
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:25,600
real time data of the various 
coins, you can send and receive 

588
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,900
the various cryptos, you can 
trade them, you know, any crypto

589
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:33,300
for any other crypto directly. 
So, you know, thousands of pairs

590
00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:36,700
in that sense you can buy and 
sell Bitcoin with Fiat. 

591
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:41,100
If you're in the u.s. right now,
from a bank account and will add

592
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,700
options for Europeans and other 
regions later on. 

593
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:48,300
So really, you know, Kind of 
think about what a coin based 

594
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:52,400
does trying to be a One-Stop 
shop for all basic crypto, but 

595
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,900
to do it in a way that allows 
you to retain custody over your 

596
00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:57,200
assets, that was really the key 
for us. 

597
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,700
And then one, you know, one 
important distinction is that 

598
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,700
there are a lot of, a lot of 
wallets out there that are 

599
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,500
multi-asset. 
But generally, they are like, 

600
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:08,500
only etherium in aetherium 
tokens. 

601
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:11,700
So, there are tons of those kind
of wallets equipped a platform 

602
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,500
Works across most of the major 
block chains and will continue 

603
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:17,600
adding more into the future. 
So that's kind of the the 

604
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,800
current version V1 of this 
platform and then over time 

605
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,700
we'll add new coins. 
Will add things like staking 

606
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,700
obviously will a different key 
storage mechanisms will add 

607
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:31,300
other ways to interact with with
the decentralized financial 

608
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,200
systems. 
You know, lending markets and 

609
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,100
money markets as those develop. 
And so really this is meant to 

610
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:39,600
be like a b2c way for people to 
interact with the crypto world 

611
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,300
and to store their assets safely
and retain self custody over 

612
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,700
them. 
As I said, token, the fuck's 

613
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:48,700
token. 
What does that used for? 

614
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:52,900
Yes, so this has been like a 
two-year project at this point 

615
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,400
and we've had to be extremely 
careful about the fox token for 

616
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,700
all the obvious regulatory 
reasons. 

617
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,600
So we've been taking baby steps 
with that, but we continue to 

618
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,400
move it forward right now, that 
token exists, it's an actual 

619
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,800
your see 20 token but it's not 
released yet and it's not 

620
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,100
integrated into the platform yet
that will happen later this 

621
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:15,199
year. 
And basically, what the Token 

622
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,500
does is anyone who holds them 
will get better rates on the 

623
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:21,699
trades that they have so you can
think of it sort of like a 

624
00:34:21,707 --> 00:34:24,699
little tea program or a reward 
system where simply by 

625
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:28,300
possessing those tokens, you get
better and better rates on the 

626
00:34:28,308 --> 00:34:30,100
trades that will kind of be the 
V. 

627
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,800
One of the fox token and people 
can earn that token on the 

628
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,300
trades they're doing. 
And then basically it's just a 

629
00:34:37,308 --> 00:34:39,199
good way. 
If you're actually doing trades 

630
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,500
to get better and better rates 
by holding that token, you don't

631
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:44,199
have to burn it or spend it to 
get those rates. 

632
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:49,000
Okay, cool. 
At the way, I see this if you 

633
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:53,100
just think of the this new 
platform as like a place where 

634
00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:56,900
one can manage his or her 
portfolio and set aside the 

635
00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,700
training aspect for a moment. 
It's like a great self 

636
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,100
custodial, multi currency 
wallet, where one can manage 

637
00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:06,800
your portfolio, see how the 
portfolio is doing. 

638
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,100
And to me, it feels like an 
improvement on what like a 

639
00:35:11,107 --> 00:35:14,900
ledger live could be like the 
larger Life Products. 

640
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:19,300
Is great, but I feel like it's 
lacking a lot of the portfolio 

641
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,200
management features that I'd 
like to see in it. 

642
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:26,200
And this is where I see this new
shape-shift product positioning 

643
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,800
itself. 
And then, in addition to that, 

644
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,500
then you like, you know, you 
have all the trading aspect 

645
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,500
also, which is like, really nice
to have like, within your, 

646
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:35,000
within your wallet. 
Yeah. 

647
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,800
So I'm really looking forward to
the, The Legend integration 

648
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,800
because I use a larger and yeah,
being able to use it with with 

649
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,900
my ledger, but for now. 
So it works with with treasure 

650
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,000
And and Kiki treasure and Kiki. 
Yeah. 

651
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,200
And you know, over time the 
experience on the Kiki will 

652
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,900
probably be the best one because
we have full ux control over 

653
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,300
every layer of that stack from 
the hardware. 

654
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:03,200
Because we own key key to the to
the wallet and the interface, 

655
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,000
which is the platform to The 
Exchange. 

656
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,300
So we run all of that and so we 
can make the ux between those 

657
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:10,600
things. 
Very very good. 

658
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,500
I think we're the only company 
that sort of has kind of those 

659
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:16,900
three layers. 
Is all under one house so over 

660
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:18,900
time you'll see that experience 
with the keep getting better and

661
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:22,200
better better But we're 
obviously going to support, you 

662
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,700
know all the major key storage 
mechanisms that customers want. 

663
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,800
And are there any criteria that 
you use to evaluate which tokens

664
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,500
get listed? 
I mean I know there's some 

665
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,800
considerations, I know that like
in the last version of shape, 

666
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,800
there was a bunch of tokens that
were delisted for various 

667
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,000
reasons. 
You can walk us through some of 

668
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,500
this reasoning. 
Yeah. 

669
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:47,300
I mean they're delisted for one 
reason and one reason only, 

670
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:50,200
which is because we felt that 
they were too close to the line 

671
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,500
from a security perspective. 
I have my own history with the 

672
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:56,400
SEC and I've been watching them 
very closely about how Oh 

673
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,400
they've interacted with the 
crypto world so ever since the 

674
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,900
start of shape-shift we've been 
very careful about which assets 

675
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,800
we would add. 
And as the SEC has issued 

676
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,200
guidance, we continually revise 
our own policies on this 

677
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,100
ultimately it's it's a bad 
situation because all we have 

678
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:15,800
are a bunch of tea leaves and we
have to try to interpret things.

679
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,900
There's there is zero clear 
guidance from the SEC on which 

680
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:21,500
tokens they deem Securities in 
which they do not. 

681
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,500
They believe that it's clear but
it is, it is not. 

682
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,400
They have not released any list 
of Tokens that they think are 

683
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,000
securities in the tokens that 
are not. 

684
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,800
So we continue in this gray area
and we simply look at the 

685
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,700
various candidate tokens on it 
on a number of metrics, we have 

686
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:40,200
a very thorough process for this
and any token we think is too 

687
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,600
close to that wine. 
We won't add. 

688
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,900
And in the case of the the 
tokens, we delisted we that 

689
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,300
happened after there. 
Is guidance from the SEC that, 

690
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,100
that made us change our 
assessment of those things. 

691
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,600
So, something we constantly 
watch now that is for the tokens

692
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,000
that are available for trading. 
Tokens that are just held in a 

693
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,500
wallet. 
We can list anything because it 

694
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:04,700
has nothing to do with with the 
SEC or Securities rules at that 

695
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:08,300
point. 
Not listening security is a 

696
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,900
prevalent problem for all crypto
exchanges. 

697
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:15,400
Do you collaborate with other 
group to exchanges on which 

698
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,200
tokens you're going to delist? 
Are on the legal groundwork that

699
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,300
goes into this? 
We don't. 

700
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:26,100
We have an internal process that
we use ourselves. 

701
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,800
We don't talk about it with 
other exchanges. 

702
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,900
Oh, thanks Ma. 
So, what's the business model of

703
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:35,400
shape-shift? 
Yeah, it's quite simple. 

704
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,800
I mean, we're a market maker for
the trading, so unlike most 

705
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,500
exchanges where, you know, 
buyers and sellers are putting 

706
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,500
up the masks and then wherever 
those prices meet a trade 

707
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:50,400
happens and the exchange takes a
commission from those two 

708
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,900
parties that traded together. 
We're a market maker. 

709
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:55,800
So we are always the 
counterparty so when someone 

710
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,300
sell Bitcoin for Litecoin 
they're selling the Bitcoin to 

711
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:01,500
us as shape-shift and we're 
selling them the Litecoin to 

712
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,300
them. 
And so in the process Pricing 

713
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,900
that we offer to people. 
We build in a spread there so we

714
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:10,800
make roughly half a percent on 
the trades that go through us. 

715
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,900
And that's that's the business 
model. 

716
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:16,800
Interestingly while we've never 
really competed on price before,

717
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,500
as the shape shift from the 
past, we're releasing new 

718
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:25,200
pricing engine in several weeks 
that ultimately will be able to 

719
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,800
beat most exchanges, much of the
time, especially for larger 

720
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,900
orders because we are a market 
maker and we're not limited to 

721
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,700
any specific order. 
So, that's something that our 

722
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:38,700
platform users will be able to 
enjoy down the road a little 

723
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:40,300
bit. 
But, you know, at that point, 

724
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:43,200
they're really we're trying to 
like, pull people out of these 

725
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,000
centralized exchanges, because 
they're so dangerous for all the

726
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,000
obvious reasons that people in 
encrypt understand but they 

727
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,400
leave their assets at these 
exchanges because it's 

728
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,200
convenient and ultimately cuz 
they get decent pricing on the 

729
00:39:54,207 --> 00:39:57,200
trades. 
If we can make it as convenient 

730
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:00,200
to self custody and if we can 
even get in a relatively 

731
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,800
competitive on the pricing, we 
think not only can we grow our 

732
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:06,800
business to be a huge size, but 
we also will do a big service to

733
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,100
the industry by pulling custody 
away from centralized places and

734
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:14,500
allowing that to remain 
decentralized in the keys of 

735
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:17,800
actual users. 
So because you're not bound to 

736
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,300
order books. 
But because you can pull the 

737
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:23,600
liquidity of the different order
books together with that in 

738
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,900
order ring trades or how do you 
how do you create better the 

739
00:40:26,908 --> 00:40:29,900
quality? 
So yeah we watch all the ordered

740
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:32,500
books of five different 
exchanges right now and over 

741
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:36,700
time you know will add more I'm 
and, you know, let's say someone

742
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:41,500
is trying to sell 20,000 dollars
of Bitcoin into Dogecoin on any 

743
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:43,500
specific exchange. 
You know, there's going to be an

744
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:47,000
order book that might you know, 
the price may move by X percent 

745
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,000
on order that size. 
But if you spread that order out

746
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,700
across all the exchanges, the 
price would move less than that.

747
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,800
And so because we can 
theoretically do that by being 

748
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,900
the market maker ourselves. 
We can give better pricing to 

749
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:02,600
users than they would get on any
particular exchange and and they

750
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,000
never have to worry. 
About the custody. 

751
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,500
When do you quote, the customer 
the price is it before you've 

752
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:13,000
actually done the price or is it
after, and is there an element 

753
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,800
of risk analysis involved for 
you guys? 

754
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,900
Yes, there is shapeshifters 
always had to order types, one's

755
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:22,600
called quick, and one's called 
precise. 

756
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,300
Basically with a quick, we show 
the user a price, that's 

757
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:28,700
updating all the time. 
And whenever they actually do 

758
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:31,600
the trade, they'll get the price
is offered at the time of that 

759
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,900
trade. 
The other way is that they can 

760
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:35,900
lock in a price for a window of 
time. 

761
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,300
And so in that case, they might 
be getting a slightly worse 

762
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:40,100
rate. 
But but at least they know what 

763
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:44,500
the price is, you know, exactly 
on both of those, we as 

764
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:47,300
shape-shift bear, some risk, and
we certainly lose Neon some 

765
00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:50,200
trade, some of the time. 
So we build that into our 

766
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,600
modeling and, you know, the 
better we get at that, you know,

767
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,600
the lower, we can tighten the 
spreads. 

768
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,800
And that's, that's sort of part 
of the business is, that is 

769
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,500
doing that. 
Intelligently have people try to

770
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:02,100
exploit that? 
Oh, yeah. 

771
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,400
If you know how well you can 
always try to game it right for 

772
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,700
sure. 
And yeah, and it's always a game

773
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:11,300
of whack-a-mole. 
And there have been people who 

774
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:14,800
have successfully traded through
us and made a bunch of money and

775
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,500
we lost the money and we see 
what they do. 

776
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:21,200
And We learn from it and so yeah
you know markets are can be 

777
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,800
thought of as everyone trying to
game everyone else and in that 

778
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,400
sense you just have to be 
careful and prudent. 

779
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,600
In what you're offering to 
people this episode of epicenter

780
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,000
is brought to you by Microsoft 
and the Azure blockchain 

781
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000
workbench. 
Getting your block chain from 

782
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,900
the Whiteboard to production can
be a big undertaking and 

783
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:41,000
something as simple as 
connecting your blockchain to 

784
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,900
iot devices or existing Erp. 
Systems is a project in itself. 

785
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,100
Well, the folks at Microsoft had
Covered you already know about 

786
00:42:48,107 --> 00:42:50,600
the Azure blockchain workbench 
and how easy it makes 

787
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,400
bootstrapping your Block Chain 
network pre-configured with all 

788
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,600
the cloud services you need for 
your Enterprise app. 

789
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,200
Their new development kit is the
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790
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,900
Suppose you want to collect data
from someone in a remote 

791
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:05,600
location via SMS and half that 
data package in a transaction 

792
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,300
for your hyper Ledger fabric. 
Blockchain the development kit 

793
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:11,600
allows you to build this 
integration in just a few steps 

794
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,900
in a simple drag-and-drop 
interface here is another great 

795
00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:17,400
example, perhaps you're an 
institutional, Tushin working 

796
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,600
with etherium and rely on CSV 
file sent by email one. 

797
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,400
Click in the dev kit and you can
parse these files and have two 

798
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,200
data, embed it in transactions. 
Whatever you're working with the

799
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,500
dev kit can read transform and 
act on the data to learn more 

800
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,700
and to build your first 
application and less than 30 

801
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:39,100
minutes, visit aka.ms/offweb 
Ascender and be sure to follow 

802
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:41,500
them on Twitter at msft 
blockchain. 

803
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,900
We'd like to thank Microsoft and
Azure for their support of 

804
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:48,300
epicenter. 
Can you give us a sense of the 

805
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:52,500
volume today on shapeshifters 
today's volume like ever since 

806
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:55,600
we implemented kyc last fall 
volumes have been pretty dismal.

807
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,100
And so we've been in this, this 
phase of rebuilding the new 

808
00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:01,300
shape shift and then kind of 
rebuilding a whole new business 

809
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:05,200
on that new platform. 
So today, I think we do an 

810
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,700
average of like two hundred 
thousand dollars a day in trades

811
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:12,400
which, you know, get for a year 
or two ago is is really low and 

812
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,300
that was like, the thing that we
knew would be really So painful 

813
00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:18,800
when we Implement a kyc, is 
because we essentially gutted 

814
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,400
the entire customer base that 
we've been building for, for 

815
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,500
several years, all the wallet 
partners that used us dropped us

816
00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:26,600
because they didn't want their 
customers to have to deal with 

817
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Casey. 
So yeah, that that's been that's

818
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,900
been difficult. 
And we just have to rebuild and 

819
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:35,700
a new company with the new model
with a half, a percent margin 

820
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:39,300
that that's obviously not enough
to support a company. 

821
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:43,700
How are you planning on getting 
that up in the near future? 

822
00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:47,400
I was is going to improve. 
Yeah, by bringing customers into

823
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,200
the platform and with enough 
customers comes enough trade 

824
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,000
volume. 
And with enough trade volume, we

825
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,600
get back to profitability. 
So it's really just a question 

826
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,700
of trade volumes. 
And to do that, we need to build

827
00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:01,000
a product that people like using
that they feel safe using and 

828
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,000
that is distinct from obviously.
The other competitors in the 

829
00:45:04,008 --> 00:45:08,200
market, do you see yourself 
trying to attract a larger 

830
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,700
players or institutional 
investors? 

831
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,400
Maybe we're the only company in 
the world right now. 

832
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,200
That's not trying to go after 
institutional. 

833
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,400
Yours. 
I'm sure a lot of companies will

834
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,700
make a lot of money with that. 
But our expertise is in B to C 

835
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,500
and actually catering to end 
users of crypto. 

836
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:27,800
And I think our role will be to 
help the world, you know, of 

837
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:32,400
actual end users transition from
a see.and bank system into a 

838
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,100
blockchain cryptosystem. 
And so we're building a product 

839
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:37,900
that will be useful for for 
normal people. 

840
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:40,600
You know, everyone is just 
getting into crypto to people 

841
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,500
who have a lot of crypto, but 
themselves are our individual. 

842
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:45,400
So we're not going after 
business. 

843
00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:48,600
Enos is really, we're definitely
not going after institutions and

844
00:45:48,607 --> 00:45:50,800
I think there would be kind of a
culture mismatch. 

845
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,700
If we as shape-shift when after 
Wall Street institutions that 

846
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:57,800
would be it just wouldn't fit. 
So it's not us. 

847
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,800
We'll leave that field to other 
companies. 

848
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:02,900
I can see you going down that 
path now. 

849
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:05,600
But you know since the the 
volume has gone down quite 

850
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,100
dramatically and you mentioned 
that has affected your revenues 

851
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,600
are, there are other business 
models that you're pursuing even

852
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,200
even in those are Be to see 
Market. 

853
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,800
Nothing that we're trying to 
replace our core business model 

854
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,900
with, I mean, ultimately, we 
make money as a market maker for

855
00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:30,100
people that are trading between 
digital assets and so that 

856
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:31,700
fundamental premise hasn't 
changed. 

857
00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:34,300
We've just had to change the 
product that we offer that 

858
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,800
service through. 
So yeah, it's going to take time

859
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,900
to rebuild a customer base and 
get those volumes back up but 

860
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,800
we're a business and so that's 
what we do. 

861
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,000
One last thing that we want to 
ask is the last time you were on

862
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,400
two years ago was to talk about 
prism which was a portfolio 

863
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,000
management. 
Portfolio management platform. 

864
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,400
Yes, you shut that product that 
product down recently, in the 

865
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,400
last about a year ago, buddy, 
Oregon, October last year. 

866
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,000
Yeah. 
How about why? 

867
00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:02,400
Why you shut that down? 
What was the experience there? 

868
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:05,800
Prison was super cool, but it 
was basically a way it was built

869
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,400
on aetherium and it was one of 
if not the first commercially 

870
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,100
available, smart contract 
Financial applications built on 

871
00:47:12,100 --> 00:47:14,300
aetherium. 
And basically what it did is 

872
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:19,800
allow people to put up 
collateral in aetherium and then

873
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,500
create a portfolio. 
Essentially, a derivative 

874
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:26,300
portfolio of various assets, it 
was all held in a smart 

875
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:30,500
contract, so it was trustless 
and then the performance of the 

876
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,100
portfolio, you know you make 
money or lose money. 

877
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:35,100
Over time. 
And then when you close the 

878
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:37,900
portfolio you you either get 
back less or more collateral 

879
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:39,800
than you put in based on the 
performance of that. 

880
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,200
It was very cool because it was 
essentially an easy way to get 

881
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,500
exposure to digital assets 
without having to set up a whole

882
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:51,400
bunch of different key storage. 
It had one significant problem 

883
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,500
sort of, that didn't exist when 
we first fathomed it, because it

884
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:59,200
was all on chain, the ethereum 
gas costs became prohibitive. 

885
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,800
So that it only made sense to 
create fairly large portfolios. 

886
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,200
Which was a little different 
than its target market that, you

887
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,200
know, over time we could have 
solved and there were some ways 

888
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,700
around it and I think aetherium 
has to figure that challenge out

889
00:48:12,900 --> 00:48:16,600
in other ways already. 
But also we have been working on

890
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,900
this new shape-shift platform 
for about a year and a half and 

891
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:23,700
it became clear to us that the 
overlap between the two products

892
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:26,700
was too great and so it didn't 
make sense to be building both 

893
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:28,600
of them. 
And so, even though we didn't 

894
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,400
mention this at the time that we
close prism part of the reason 

895
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,300
that we closed, it was that a 
Out of its features will end up 

896
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:37,300
being built into the new the new
shape-shift platform and we felt

897
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:40,900
we needed to focus on that. 
So yeah, it was it was certainly

898
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:44,700
sad to Sunset that product a 
year ago it was a very 

899
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:48,900
interesting kind of pioneering 
project to build Financial 

900
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:51,700
derivatives in a trustless way. 
We thought there was some real 

901
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,400
real value and interest there 
but we just have to make a 

902
00:48:54,408 --> 00:48:56,600
difficult decision to not 
continue that at this time. 

903
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,100
Super interesting. 
That's what she has a little bit

904
00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:02,900
and talk about the ecosystem a 
little bit more. 

905
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,100
So, you've been in this 
ecosystem very long time, you 

906
00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:10,900
spend a lot of time in Bitcoin 
and some time in the theorem. 

907
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,300
How do you see both of them from
the outside? 

908
00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:16,200
From the perspective of the 
others? 

909
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:20,400
And how do you see this in the 
face of Challenge and change? 

910
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,200
And it changes protocols. 
So Cosmos definity, Parker Dot, 

911
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,700
and so on. 
Well, so when I got into crypto 

912
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:32,000
it was May of 2011. 
Bitcoin was really the only 

913
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,600
thing there and the entire 
crypto Community was the Bitcoin

914
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,900
Community. 
They were synonymous as this 

915
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:42,500
technology grew and as people 
started building different kinds

916
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,300
of blockchains and experimenting
with different ways of using 

917
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:48,500
this technology, different use 
cases different types of assets.

918
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,100
The community has obviously 
fragmented and split into many 

919
00:49:53,100 --> 00:49:56,400
different pieces. 
I See myself, as part of the 

920
00:49:56,408 --> 00:50:02,400
entire cryptocurrency ecosystem,
not just the Bitcoin ecosystem, 

921
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,000
and not just the theorem 
ecosystem, but really a holistic

922
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,200
approach to realize that this is
an entirely new set of 

923
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,900
Technologies and asset classes. 
I think they are mutually 

924
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:16,400
beneficial to each other. 
I think etherium strength, helps

925
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,800
Bitcoin and vice versa, and it's
been really tragic for me to see

926
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,000
that. 
There are a lot of people that 

927
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,100
don't feel that way that they 
are very tribal. 

928
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:29,100
And this is particularly this 
particularly apparent within the

929
00:50:29,107 --> 00:50:31,800
Bitcoin Community. 
There are a lot of bitcoiners 

930
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,900
who have utter hatred for every 
other crypto project out there. 

931
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:40,200
I think it's really sad and 
unfortunate and a lot of them 

932
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,100
spend their time on Twitter you 
know kind of shitting on every 

933
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:47,000
other project and finding 
problems with every other 

934
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:51,400
project because they want to 
just protect Bitcoin or it's 

935
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,000
very trouble as it's the same 
kind of thing. 

936
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,900
You see among you know fans of 
sports teams It's the same kind 

937
00:50:55,900 --> 00:50:59,300
of thing, you see among 
political parties or religions, 

938
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,500
it's kind of a phenomenon of 
humans that they will fall into 

939
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,600
this tribalism sometimes, and 
it's been sad to see that in the

940
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,900
crypto world. 
But, you know, maybe that was 

941
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:11,200
maybe that was inevitable As you
move from a community that was, 

942
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,800
you know, 10 or 20 thousand 
people around the world to one 

943
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:19,800
that is now 10 or 20 million. 
So looking at both the tribalism

944
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,900
in Bitcoin, any Theory, mm, and 
I mean even like there's 

945
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:27,200
tribalism even between like, 
within those communities, not 

946
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,400
only among like between 
themselves. 

947
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,200
Do you think there's a way out 
of this will be the great 

948
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,000
unifier. 
It's like, you know, cause some 

949
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,200
of the Char, blows them to go 
away. 

950
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:43,100
I mean, one potential unifier is
when there is a common enemy and

951
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:45,900
so that would generally be Fiat 
currencies in Banks and 

952
00:51:45,900 --> 00:51:49,100
governments Fiat currencies and 
Banks and governments have not 

953
00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:51,800
taken a hard-line antagonistic 
approach to crypto. 

954
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,500
So that so it's not a clear and 
present danger in a clear enemy.

955
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:58,700
I think if like the G20 Nations 
started trying to outright 

956
00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:02,600
banned cryptocurrency some of 
the tribalism might go away 

957
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:05,700
because then at that point the 
tribe is all of crypto versus 

958
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:09,100
you know the Fiat were World. 
But I that's not a guarantee 

959
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:10,600
that that would would solve it 
either. 

960
00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:12,600
I don't know. 
I mean, maybe it doesn't get 

961
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,300
solved. 
Maybe you just kind of Withers 

962
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:18,000
away 10 or 20 or 30 years from 
now, when we when this 

963
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,300
technology isn't new anymore and
people see what Bitcoins places,

964
00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:23,200
and they see what a theorems 
places and they see how these 

965
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,500
things interact in the use cases
that they all Phil. 

966
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:31,700
I think some some of it results 
from bitcoiners being unable to 

967
00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:34,200
realize that there are more use 
cases than just money. 

968
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,700
They seem stuck in this idea 
that like Currency digital 

969
00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:40,300
blockchain assets can only be 
used as money and because 

970
00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:43,700
Bitcoin is the most popular and 
because they believe it's the 

971
00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:47,800
most secure in the most 
decentralized Etc that it should

972
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,200
be the only one and that any 
other competing money. 

973
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,400
You know, will ultimately fail. 
Just based on the laws of 

974
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,600
Economics I would tend to agree 
with that in some ways, if the 

975
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,700
only use case was money but even
in that case, there is value in 

976
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:03,900
the experimentation on other 
blockchains. 

977
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,100
It is not clear that Bitcoins. 
Blockchain and its structure, is

978
00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:11,500
the optimal way to do money, the
world deserves a period of 

979
00:53:11,500 --> 00:53:15,100
experimentation of 10, or 20, or
30 years to vet that out. 

980
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:18,800
But more importantly, money is 
only one of the use cases of 

981
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,800
digital assets and I think 
digital assets there will be 

982
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:25,400
millions of them. 
I think there will be one to 100

983
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,700
major blockchains something like
that, there's not going to be a 

984
00:53:27,707 --> 00:53:30,500
million popular blockchains 
because that doesn't make sense,

985
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,800
but there's definitely going to 
be millions of different digital

986
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,200
assets on these major block 
chains and they optimized for 

987
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,300
different Things. 
You know, aetherium has features

988
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:42,000
that Bitcoin can't do today. 
And Bitcoin has structural 

989
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,500
reasons why it is more secure 
and safe than a theorem right 

990
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:47,400
now. 
Both of those are useful and I 

991
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,300
think the market is better off 
by having both of them. 

992
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,400
At the same time, you have new 
coins. 

993
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,700
Like you know, the EOS is in the
cosmos is of the world that are 

994
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:59,700
operating on a proof of stake 
model and those have advantages.

995
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:03,200
They're extremely fast very high
throughput, that doesn't mean 

996
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,400
that they should replace Bitcoin
or that they would be a better 

997
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,600
form of money. 
But they are certainly better in

998
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,000
some use cases than Bitcoin is 
and certainly better and some 

999
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,400
use cases and ethereum is and I 
think that's okay. 

1000
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,200
I think it's a healthier 
industry when you have multiple 

1001
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,900
Technologies, providing multiple
products for people and so you 

1002
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:22,000
know I just see all that as good
stuff at the same time. 

1003
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,900
There's a lot of total crap 
projects that are either scams 

1004
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:27,400
or totally pointless. 
So this doesn't mean that every 

1005
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,200
crypto project deserves 
recognition or respect, but I 

1006
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,700
think a lot of them do and so I 
don't know how the tribalism 

1007
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:38,700
ends but it's been it's been 
kind of Pointing we often talk 

1008
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,000
about more about etherium than 
Bitcoin. 

1009
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,300
This is why I'm asking for 
Bitcoin, this time, what's your 

1010
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:45,300
vision for Bitcoin at this 
point? 

1011
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:47,100
And where do you think it's 
going? 

1012
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:49,600
And has this changed over the 
last couple of years. 

1013
00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:53,500
So my fundamental view of 
Bitcoin has not changed ever 

1014
00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:56,800
since I got involved many years 
ago and that is that, I believe 

1015
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,900
it has a good chance of 
ultimately replacing by 

1016
00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:04,400
outcompeting Fiat, currencies 
around the world, and becoming a

1017
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,900
new monetary standard for the 
whole world. 

1018
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,900
I think that that was its 
initial promise and I think it 

1019
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:13,300
is with each day that goes by it
gets closer and closer to that. 

1020
00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:16,100
I am one of the people that 
believes that Fiat currencies 

1021
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:18,600
will go away. 
I think that over time when 

1022
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,900
people realize they can have 
money, that cannot be created 

1023
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:23,000
out of thin air, or they can 
have money, that can be created 

1024
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,300
out of thin air by politicians 
over time. 

1025
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:27,600
They will they will choose the 
former but it's going to take a 

1026
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,300
long time and at least a 
generational shift if not too. 

1027
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:35,400
So one thing that has changed 
though with Bitcoin is also 

1028
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,400
early on it was seen as Really 
good payment system, like a very

1029
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,300
easy, quick way to pay people 
around the world that was fast 

1030
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:43,500
and cheap. 
It's still quite fast, 

1031
00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:46,200
obviously, it's the same speed. 
It used to be and for 

1032
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,100
international transfers, or for 
anything that is, you know, call

1033
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:52,600
it high value. 
Which means, you know, a few 

1034
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,400
hundred dollars or more. 
It's still a great payment 

1035
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,900
system, but obviously, as it 
gets, bigger and bigger, the 

1036
00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:59,700
fees are going to get worse and 
worse than it's going to be 

1037
00:55:59,700 --> 00:56:01,800
useful for fewer and fewer 
payment. 

1038
00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:05,800
Use cases, maybe that's okay, or
maybe things like lightning 

1039
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,000
network will. 
Really take off and handle those

1040
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,000
smaller transactions and that 
would be okay too but that's 

1041
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,000
that's something that's 
definitely different from when I

1042
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,200
first got involved to see kind 
of something that used to be you

1043
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,200
know send money for essentially 
nothing to now. 

1044
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:22,800
You know it doesn't make sense 
to send a ten dollar Bitcoin 

1045
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,600
transaction ever. 
And at the worst case you know, 

1046
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,500
back in the last bubble the 
average fee on bitcoin 

1047
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:32,600
transactions was $50. 
We had we had customers sending 

1048
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,700
us a hundred dollar trade you 
know of like went into Bitcoin 

1049
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:38,400
and they would end up with With 
with $50 on the other side and 

1050
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,000
think that we scammed them. 
And you know, someone who's new 

1051
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,000
and is like why that why in the 
world did you take $50 of my 

1052
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,100
transaction? 
That was an uncomfortable 

1053
00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:48,200
conversation to have with 
thousands of different people. 

1054
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,500
So that's certainly not ideal 
for payments, but payments is 

1055
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:54,600
just one of many things that 
crypto can be used for. 

1056
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,800
And if Bitcoin does not become 
the widespread payment Network 

1057
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,300
that people thought at first, 
that might be okay, too. 

1058
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,700
My view is that if Bitcoin is 
money and is meant to be money 

1059
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,400
that the ecosystem, like should 
should really be working hard to

1060
00:57:10,408 --> 00:57:12,700
make it money. 
I feel like lightning network is

1061
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,700
a good step in this direction. 
But do you see anything that the

1062
00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:22,800
Bitcoin ecosystem, specifically 
could be doing better to move 

1063
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,400
closer to this goal of being a 
replacement for Fiat? 

1064
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:32,500
I think you have to separate the
the money from the payment 

1065
00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:35,800
system. 
Obviously, a money that has easy

1066
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,300
Payment Systems attached to. 
It is better than one that 

1067
00:57:38,300 --> 00:57:43,700
doesn't, but it's not clear that
if Bitcoin is going to be money,

1068
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:46,800
it needs to be able to have 
cheap five dollar transactions. 

1069
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,200
Maybe it does not, that's that's
unclear. 

1070
00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:52,200
It is also very possible that a 
different crypto starts 

1071
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,900
emerging. 
That is simply because it is 

1072
00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:57,300
faster and cheaper. 
It ultimately takes more 

1073
00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:00,400
economic activity. 
Activity and it becomes money 

1074
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,600
and it's totally possible that 
Bitcoin fails because it did not

1075
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,900
optimized for Speed and 
transaction. 

1076
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:09,100
Throughput, I don't know. 
I don't know where that will 

1077
00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:10,900
come out. 
But again, that's why all this 

1078
00:58:10,900 --> 00:58:12,500
experimentation is really 
important. 

1079
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,800
Stark where is organizing the 
star quartz sessions Conference 

1080
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,400
during the Tel Aviv blockchain 
week in September and you should

1081
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,000
definitely consider going in 
case you don't know about Stark 

1082
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,500
where they're productizing, 
zero-knowledge proofs to solve 

1083
00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:26,800
two of the blockchain 
ecosystems, most pressing issues

1084
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:30,700
scalability and privacy and 
Stark whereas co-founded by Eli 

1085
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:33,600
been Sassoon who was previously 
on the show, the conference will

1086
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,300
cover some of the most 
cutting-edge research and 

1087
00:58:35,300 --> 00:58:37,600
applications in the field of 
zero-knowledge proofs. 

1088
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,200
And you can expect only the 
brightest Minds in this space, 

1089
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,400
to discuss things like self 
custodial trading stocks for. 

1090
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:46,900
R1 Stark friendly hash functions
and other cool things you can do

1091
00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:49,100
is start proofs. 
Many of the speakers are 

1092
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:52,100
epicenter alumni including if 
you're in researchers metallic 

1093
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:54,500
butyrin Alexei I can off and 
Justin Drake. 

1094
00:58:54,900 --> 00:58:58,100
Martin kopelman of noses will 
also be speaking as well as 

1095
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:00,300
Arthur Brightman of tasos. 
So if you're interested in 

1096
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:02,700
broadening our understanding of 
these cutting-edge Technologies,

1097
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,600
there's no better place to do it
in stock where sessions join the

1098
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,600
conference in Tel Aviv on 
September 16th or come a day 

1099
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,400
early for the Stark 101 Workshop
where you'll build a star 

1100
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,300
Cruiser from scratch tickets are
on sale. 

1101
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:16,000
Now, and you can find the 
registration page at epicenter. 

1102
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:22,700
Rocks, / Stark where that's St. 
AR K, wa re the first 50 people 

1103
00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:25,100
to use the code epicenter will 
get 20 percent off. 

1104
00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:27,000
The regular ticket price, we'd 
like to thank start with 

1105
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:28,600
sessions for their support of 
epicenter. 

1106
00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:32,100
What are your thoughts on 
Deborah? 

1107
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:35,200
So you had a tweet storm in 
which he welcomed. 

1108
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,100
Libra. 
My first tweet storm. 

1109
00:59:37,100 --> 00:59:38,800
Yeah, I know. 
I saw. 

1110
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,600
Can you explain your reasoning 
behind? 

1111
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:43,600
Why are you.why? 
You think is good for the 

1112
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,200
ecosystem? 
So, I've been interested in this

1113
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,500
mysterious Facebook 
cryptocurrency, you know, kind 

1114
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:54,500
of ever since the news about it 
started leaking, kind of mid 

1115
00:59:54,500 --> 00:59:57,400
late last year. 
I assumed that it would be kind 

1116
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,000
of some watered-down centralized
coin. 

1117
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,600
That was not very interesting, 
really just like a dollar pegged

1118
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,700
centralized, you know, quote, 
unquote digital currency. 

1119
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,900
That's what I assumed would 
happen, but when the actual 

1120
01:00:10,900 --> 01:00:15,000
details of Libra were revealed, 
I was quite enthusiastic. 

1121
01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:19,200
A stick about it. 
Certainly it is not a censorship

1122
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:24,300
resistant, self Sovereign crypto
currency like Bitcoin but it's 

1123
01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:28,200
also something that is much more
interesting, much more 

1124
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:32,500
decentralized and much less, you
know, tied to government policy 

1125
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,700
than Fiat. 
So they did to kind of really 

1126
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:38,000
important design decisions. 
One was that it is actually 

1127
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,500
built on a blockchain, sort of 
a, you know, an open-source 

1128
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:44,900
permission lists Ledger that 
people can be building on. 

1129
01:00:45,300 --> 01:00:48,400
That was a big design decision 
that was important and into is, 

1130
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,400
it's backed by not. 
It's not a one-to-one peg with 

1131
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,700
the dollar which would have been
there. 

1132
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:56,900
Easy way to do it. 
It's actually backed by a basket

1133
01:00:56,900 --> 01:01:01,400
of Fiat and bonds. 
And what that means is that it 

1134
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,700
is sort of above or greater than
any specific National currency 

1135
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:08,600
and because Facebook has 2 
billion users. 

1136
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,700
It's really the first credible 
near-term competitor to 

1137
01:01:12,700 --> 01:01:16,800
something like the US dollar. 
I found that to be extremely 

1138
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,800
exciting. 
I think a world based on, you 

1139
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,500
know, large companies, issuing 
their own currencies would be 

1140
01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:24,300
much better than one, where 
governments are issuing their 

1141
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:26,600
own currencies and something 
even better than that. 

1142
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,200
Is where is a purely 
decentralized cryptocurrency, 

1143
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,200
like Bitcoin. 
But I see Libre has a really 

1144
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,500
good stepping stone between 
those two worlds and then I was 

1145
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:38,100
pleased to see what may be 
pleased is the wrong word 

1146
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:42,300
entertained, to see how quickly,
the governments of the world 

1147
01:01:42,300 --> 01:01:47,000
came out against Libra. 
The they were Very uncomfortable

1148
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:50,900
about what Libra was doing and 
this was largely because they 

1149
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:56,200
saw it as a threat to their 
Monopoly, over money creation. 

1150
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,300
And now we have hearings in the 
major major branches of 

1151
01:02:01,300 --> 01:02:04,000
government in the US and 
elsewhere, where they're 

1152
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,200
actually talking publicly. 
About the qualities of money, 

1153
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,100
the attributes of money, and 
whether, you know, central banks

1154
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:12,600
to create money or private 
markets, you create money, these

1155
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,600
kind of discussions, never 
happened. 

1156
01:02:15,100 --> 01:02:18,000
Ten years ago, they haven't even
really happened within the 

1157
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,900
Bitcoin world, because the 
politicians haven't taken 

1158
01:02:20,900 --> 01:02:23,900
Bitcoin seriously as an 
existential threat to Dollars. 

1159
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,500
I'm glad they're not taking it 
as a threat, even though it 

1160
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:29,500
absolutely is that threat. 
But when Facebook comes out and 

1161
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:32,800
does it, they see that 
immediately as a existential 

1162
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,200
threat to dollars in and other 
Fiat and that's just 

1163
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,000
fascinating. 
I mean, at this point, Facebook 

1164
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,400
has become the lightning rod to 
which all the ire of these 

1165
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,300
various politicians is going to 
be drawn. 

1166
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,200
I don't know that. 
Libra Ever actually launch 

1167
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,100
because I think the government 
is going to be so upset with 

1168
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:52,500
them that they can actually get 
it out the door that 

1169
01:02:52,500 --> 01:02:56,100
demonstrates yet again, why 
decentralization is so valuable 

1170
01:02:56,100 --> 01:02:58,900
and ultimately, I think that's 
good for Bitcoin and I think if 

1171
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:01,200
Weber launches, it's good for 
Bitcoin because it pulls people 

1172
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,700
further out of the Fiat world 
and into a more digital currency

1173
01:03:05,700 --> 01:03:07,500
world. 
So, I'm excited about the whole 

1174
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:10,700
thing. 
I applaud Facebook, for making 

1175
01:03:10,700 --> 01:03:13,500
some design decisions that would
be obviously controversial and 

1176
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:15,900
really push the envelope. 
I think You know whenever I see 

1177
01:03:15,900 --> 01:03:18,400
bravery from a company that 
large I think that's very 

1178
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:19,900
respectable. 
So yeah. 

1179
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:23,600
We'll see how this goes. 
I think I agree with you on the 

1180
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:26,900
the interesting design aspects 
of Libra. 

1181
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,200
I think that we really weren't 
expecting that to emerge out of 

1182
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:37,500
this project and and it has been
entertaining as well to see 

1183
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,900
regulators and lawmakers and 
politicians throw their arms up 

1184
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:46,100
at this project. 
And and it It's sort of like, 

1185
01:03:46,100 --> 01:03:48,400
you know, we're scoring points 
like, cryptocurrency, the group 

1186
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,200
of currency or ecosystem is 
scoring some good points in 

1187
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,100
this, in this fight, on the 
other hand, fervent critic of 

1188
01:03:55,900 --> 01:04:00,800
Facebook or its numerous privacy
transgressions over the years. 

1189
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:06,000
And, you know, we're learning 
more details now, about some of 

1190
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:07,700
the things that are to come and 
like sort of thing. 

1191
01:04:07,900 --> 01:04:13,700
It's Messaging App, Suite, Etc. 
I think it's absolutely 

1192
01:04:13,700 --> 01:04:14,900
inevitable. 
Inevitable. 

1193
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:21,200
That if Libra ever launches, the
Facebook would use the data to 

1194
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,400
fulfill his mission, which is to
sell advertising to its 

1195
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,600
advertisers and exploit people's
financial data. 

1196
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,600
What are your thoughts on that? 
Like, where do you sit in 

1197
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,700
between these sort of this is 
great because it goes against 

1198
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,600
government and National 
currencies and on the other 

1199
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,600
hand, you know, the the risk to 
users? 

1200
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:45,200
Yeah, the Privacy. 
I'm not one of most people who I

1201
01:04:45,500 --> 01:04:48,600
think Facebook is evil because 
they use people's data. 

1202
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,500
I think people that use Facebook
as customers and they want a 

1203
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:55,400
free service and then expect the
company to just build them a 

1204
01:04:55,408 --> 01:04:58,500
free service without taking 
their data and selling it are 

1205
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:02,300
naive and frankly, frankly 
unfair I think any private 

1206
01:05:02,300 --> 01:05:05,200
business that you can opt out 
from you can opt out from. 

1207
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,100
So if you don't like what 
Facebook does with privacy, 

1208
01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:08,500
don't use it. 
If you don't like what Libra 

1209
01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:11,800
does with privacy, don't use it 
and that's the marketplace at 

1210
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,800
work. 
I would much rather have a world

1211
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,000
where Facebook has the 
predominant currency and takes 

1212
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,800
information from it to sell. 
You advertising versus a world 

1213
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,300
in, which the Federal Reserve 
issues, the main currency and 

1214
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:25,600
they're able to debase it and 
print it at the whim of 

1215
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,200
politicians which impoverishes 
the entire world slowly over 

1216
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,600
time, I think that's a huge 
improvement over the status quo 

1217
01:05:32,300 --> 01:05:35,000
better than both of those of 
course would be a world in which

1218
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,700
a properly decentralized 
cryptocurrency like Bitcoin 

1219
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,100
exists and is the dominant money
but it really kind of depends on

1220
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:45,200
what you're comparing it to. 
So in fact, that Libra is a 

1221
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,600
currency that's that's issued by
a non-state actor. 

1222
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:53,000
That is nevertheless, extremely 
powerful in the Legacy world so 

1223
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:57,300
something that can't be said of 
Bitcoins and the like so even if

1224
01:05:57,300 --> 01:06:00,400
you just look at the total 
market cap of Bitcoin in the 

1225
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:04,800
theorem that is completely 
dwarfed by Facebook and all the 

1226
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,200
other companies that are 
attached to Libra. 

1227
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:11,800
Now, do you think this is going 
to change how we think about 

1228
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,200
State and non-state actors? 
And I think this is going to 

1229
01:06:15,500 --> 01:06:19,500
blur the line because in effect 
so far money issuance has been a

1230
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:24,200
monopoly for, you know, 
nation-states and I mean 

1231
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,900
discounting Bitcoin. 
But I mean basically in the 

1232
01:06:26,908 --> 01:06:30,800
grand scheme of things Bitcoin 
and etherium, they're really 

1233
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:36,000
smart phenomena so they're not 
going to throw off entire 

1234
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,200
government's yet. 
But do you think in hindsight 

1235
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,300
will see this as a pivotal 
moment? 

1236
01:06:43,300 --> 01:06:45,000
Yeah. 
Yes, I think it's definitely a 

1237
01:06:45,008 --> 01:06:47,800
pivotal moment. 
I think there's generally an 

1238
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:51,900
impression that governments have
always managed money and thus 

1239
01:06:51,900 --> 01:06:54,600
the fact that Bitcoin is this 
new thing and or Libras. 

1240
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,000
This new thing is something 
entirely different from history.

1241
01:06:57,900 --> 01:07:00,600
The reality is that governments 
have only really been issuing 

1242
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,500
money at the base layer for a 
few decades. 

1243
01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:07,000
I mean, basically since 1971 
when the dollar went off the 

1244
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,400
gold standard, we've had a 
purely Fiat system prior to 

1245
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:13,500
that. 
It was really a gold end. 

1246
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:17,600
In commodity money system in an 
imperfect one but one that was 

1247
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:23,900
still at the foundational layer 
built on on gold so this isn't 

1248
01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:28,000
something entirely new at all. 
It's really a return or let's 

1249
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:32,000
say it's really the world 
leaving the context of 

1250
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,500
governments, being responsible 
for money and going back to 

1251
01:07:34,500 --> 01:07:37,800
something that is that is 
outside of the control of any 

1252
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:42,600
politician or any government. 
Now obviously something like 

1253
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:44,600
Bitcoin is far more powerful. 
Powerful than gold because it 

1254
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:46,900
can move around the world so 
easily, and it works in a 

1255
01:07:46,900 --> 01:07:49,700
digital economy. 
Gold doesn't really work that 

1256
01:07:49,700 --> 01:07:53,300
way unless you centralize it an 
issue, electronic notes for that

1257
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,500
which has its own problems. 
So there's definitely like 

1258
01:07:56,500 --> 01:07:58,100
newness to this whole 
phenomenon. 

1259
01:07:58,300 --> 01:08:00,900
But I think a world where 
government wasn't behind money 

1260
01:08:01,100 --> 01:08:03,100
would actually be back to 
normal, it would not be 

1261
01:08:03,100 --> 01:08:05,300
something new. 
Interesting. 

1262
01:08:05,700 --> 01:08:10,000
I think that there is a 
contextual aspect that comes to 

1263
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,700
play here. 
That needs to be considered as 

1264
01:08:11,700 --> 01:08:16,500
well as that the world of 100 or
200 years ago and the economy of

1265
01:08:16,500 --> 01:08:21,500
100. 300 years ago was far less 
complex than what we have today,

1266
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:29,399
in terms of activity, Market, 
activity population, Supply 

1267
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:32,100
chains, Etc. 
Do you feel that? 

1268
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:38,500
It makes sense in today's 
massively complex economy to go 

1269
01:08:38,500 --> 01:08:43,100
back to a fully unregulated 
money system. 

1270
01:08:43,500 --> 01:08:49,600
As was the case may be like 200 
years ago, or yeah, I think the 

1271
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,500
more complex system the less 
able to properly handle it, a 

1272
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:57,899
centralized structure becomes so
when a simpler system 

1273
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,399
centralization can work really 
well as you add Complexity 

1274
01:09:01,399 --> 01:09:04,200
centralization causes all sorts 
of all sorts of problems. 

1275
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:08,300
A great example of this is 
politics and governance, the 

1276
01:09:08,300 --> 01:09:10,899
biggest problems in politics are
the ones in which you have the 

1277
01:09:10,899 --> 01:09:15,899
most people involved. 
So a Town Council never commits 

1278
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:21,500
like genocide or or, you know, 
crazy Global issues and most 

1279
01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:25,500
people feel reasonably, okay, 
about their Town Council, when 

1280
01:09:25,500 --> 01:09:28,200
you get up to like a city or a 
state level, there's more 

1281
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,700
controversy and more problems 
but but still nothing. 

1282
01:09:30,899 --> 01:09:34,000
Which you get it national 
governments, especially when it 

1283
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,399
comes to markets, which are 
incredibly complicated. 

1284
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:39,000
And there are no people on Earth
who are smart enough to really 

1285
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:41,700
understand them. 
That, that kind of, that 

1286
01:09:41,700 --> 01:09:43,899
humility is completely lost 
within politicians. 

1287
01:09:43,899 --> 01:09:45,899
They all believe that. 
If you get a few economists in 

1288
01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:48,500
the room, you can understand 
something as complex as the 

1289
01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:51,100
global economy. 
I think, because something is 

1290
01:09:51,100 --> 01:09:54,200
that complex, it has to have a 
decentralized structure. 

1291
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,300
And when you have Central 
Banking where they are literally

1292
01:09:58,300 --> 01:10:00,600
controlling the price of money, 
they're essentially. 

1293
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,000
Planning the price of money for 
the entire world that is the 

1294
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,300
same kind of central planning 
that took down Soviet Russia. 

1295
01:10:07,300 --> 01:10:08,500
The same kind of central 
planning. 

1296
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:11,900
That's taken down Venezuela. 
That kind of thing is really 

1297
01:10:11,900 --> 01:10:14,000
dangerous. 
And so I think the world would 

1298
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,100
be much better off to the degree
of this complex. 

1299
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:20,200
It is much better off of the 
decentralized system in which no

1300
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:23,000
Central party is trying to have 
all the information because it 

1301
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,900
certainly cannot have it. 
Even if it wants to I'ma I'd 

1302
01:10:25,900 --> 01:10:27,800
like to touch on something. 
You said their words, I think 

1303
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,700
it's relevant to your and 
obviously I agree that Central. 

1304
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,800
Planning to the extent that we 
saw in Soviet Russia or that we 

1305
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:39,400
see in Venezuela is an extreme 
that at some point does collapse

1306
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,300
and you know we can see what's 
going on in Venezuela right now.

1307
01:10:43,300 --> 01:10:46,600
And we've seen this in the last 
50 years and many places. 

1308
01:10:47,100 --> 01:10:51,900
But you said something about 
people not being smart enough to

1309
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,100
understand what's going on in 
their in their own market. 

1310
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:00,700
And yeah, I'd like to tie that 
back to Facebook and the sort of

1311
01:11:00,700 --> 01:11:04,000
Checked, aggressions and 
transgressions on people's 

1312
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,800
privacy and the fact that sure 
like people can use Facebook if 

1313
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:09,500
they like, or they can stop 
using it. 

1314
01:11:09,900 --> 01:11:14,500
I think that in the aggregate 
people don't really understand 

1315
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:21,500
or appreciate the risks of such 
a, such an unchecked power. 

1316
01:11:21,900 --> 01:11:25,300
That is governed only by markets
such as Facebook. 

1317
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:29,800
And we've seen that in the last 
couple of years with what 

1318
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,300
happened in the US. 
Elections. 

1319
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:35,000
And I think that is just the tip
of the iceberg, because in 

1320
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,400
reality, I think, you know, 
there wasn't really that much AI

1321
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,400
or machine learning in behind 
that, you know, you do you think

1322
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,200
that companies like Facebook 
should be and this sort of off 

1323
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:45,800
topic? 
You think, the companies like 

1324
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,700
Facebook should be allowed to 
you, just do as they please and 

1325
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:55,400
grow to nearly like 
too-big-to-fail size and not be 

1326
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,100
regulated at all. 
I need my general moral 

1327
01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:01,900
philosophy. 
Is that anything peaceful should

1328
01:12:01,900 --> 01:12:06,100
be permitted and I can always 
walk away from Facebook. 

1329
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,400
I cannot walk away from the US 
federal government. 

1330
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,000
I am taxed and stolen from buy 
them, regardless of what I want 

1331
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:16,700
to do. 
I I just see them as completely 

1332
01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:20,600
different threats in in their 
character. 

1333
01:12:20,700 --> 01:12:23,400
I mean, I don't see Facebook as 
a problem because people can 

1334
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,700
stop, they can opt out of that 
if I could turn. 

1335
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,400
Knopf. 
My support to the federal 

1336
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,000
government. 
That would be incredible. 

1337
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:36,000
You know but but I can't I'm I'm
trapped and I'm the the federal 

1338
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,500
government and not only that but
Facebook does not have a 

1339
01:12:38,500 --> 01:12:39,700
military that goes around the 
world. 

1340
01:12:39,700 --> 01:12:41,200
Killing hundreds of thousands of
people. 

1341
01:12:41,500 --> 01:12:43,600
So yeah. 
Is it bad that they use your 

1342
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,700
data to sell to advertisers? 
Sure. 

1343
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:49,400
I guess that that's bad and 
people should certainly be more 

1344
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,500
cognizant that that's happening.
I agree with that but they're 

1345
01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:54,600
not killing people. 
Facebook isn't killing people. 

1346
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,300
The US federal government is 
literally killing Thousands of 

1347
01:12:57,300 --> 01:13:00,700
people to even put them in the 
same boat, I think, is unfair 

1348
01:13:00,700 --> 01:13:04,800
and I would much rather have 
large peaceful corporations, 

1349
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,000
like Facebook, that are 
market-based and regulated by 

1350
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:12,400
markets Running Money systems 
versus large governments. 

1351
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:17,800
That literally kill people and 
have the legal protection of 

1352
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,300
theft and murder. 
I think that is, that is the 

1353
01:13:20,300 --> 01:13:22,800
great Injustice of the world. 
And so, the more that the 

1354
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:26,000
control over money moves out of 
that world and into into the 

1355
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,700
private Marketplace, Ace the 
better. 

1356
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,600
Well, I would say that once 
Facebook has its own money and 

1357
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,200
control over money, it can 
definitely at that point, start 

1358
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,800
going around and killing people 
or events. 

1359
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:41,100
Then my, my opinion will change.
I mean, if you but but private 

1360
01:13:41,100 --> 01:13:46,000
companies, don't do Facebook. 
Doesn't is not an elected body 

1361
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,100
of people. 
Totally disagree. 

1362
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:51,700
So you have more control in your
election of Facebook, then you 

1363
01:13:51,700 --> 01:13:54,800
do in the election of us 
politicians, if you don't like 

1364
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:56,500
Facebook, you can sell their 
shares. 

1365
01:13:56,500 --> 01:13:57,800
Well, American pleasure. 
Okay. 

1366
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:01,300
Well, right, but, but users 
users of Facebook. 

1367
01:14:01,300 --> 01:14:03,300
They can sell their shares that 
can close our account. 

1368
01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:05,800
That, that is democracy, that is
opting out of something. 

1369
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,400
And that is much more powerful 
than the, than this, the charade

1370
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,600
of political votes that elects 
the, the stupidest people among 

1371
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,600
the population to leave them. 
I mean, I don't understand how 

1372
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:20,200
anyone can possibly advocate for
a system like democracy when it 

1373
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,100
leads to people like Hillary 
Clinton. 

1374
01:14:22,100 --> 01:14:25,300
And Donald Trump being the two 
greatest candidates that the 

1375
01:14:25,700 --> 01:14:28,400
country is able to Choose from. 
I mean that's just totally 

1376
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:32,500
Preposterous that whole system 
is I think worthy of being shut 

1377
01:14:32,500 --> 01:14:37,100
down immediately, totally agree.
I completely agree with that, 

1378
01:14:37,100 --> 01:14:39,800
with that premise. 
So what do you think about the 

1379
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,100
future of money Eric? 
So basically, in principle 

1380
01:14:43,100 --> 01:14:45,600
blockchains enabled 
organization, so basically 

1381
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:47,800
assets become easily 
transferable. 

1382
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:52,200
Do you think we will actually 
still need Fiat money, or even 

1383
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,000
company issued money in the 
future? 

1384
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,600
Now, we don't need Fiat money 
now, so yeah. 

1385
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,600
Money is a scam. 
It's the greatest scam ever 

1386
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:03,100
perpetrated on mankind. 
The sooner people abandon it and

1387
01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:04,900
moved to private Market based 
money. 

1388
01:15:04,900 --> 01:15:09,500
The better Bitcoin obviously 
kicked off a phenomenon that I 

1389
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:12,800
think is Unstoppable at this 
point, it is a phenomenon of 

1390
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,300
this decentralized trustless 
technology which is really well 

1391
01:15:16,300 --> 01:15:19,400
suited for something like money 
that needs to be Global and 

1392
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,400
which no one should have the 
power to control. 

1393
01:15:22,100 --> 01:15:24,000
I think it's inevitable at this 
point and that, you know, I 

1394
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,400
don't know if it takes five 
years or 50 years for this all 

1395
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,000
play out. 
Out, but I think, you know, to 

1396
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:32,000
two generations from now, people
will look back and see how 

1397
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,900
obvious it was. 
That a group calling themselves,

1398
01:15:35,900 --> 01:15:38,100
the Federal Reserve should not 
have been trying to control the 

1399
01:15:38,100 --> 01:15:40,100
price of money for god, sakes 
like that. 

1400
01:15:40,100 --> 01:15:41,900
That'll be something that's 
laughed at, by people in the 

1401
01:15:41,900 --> 01:15:44,500
future as something. 
Preposterous just like bleeding 

1402
01:15:44,500 --> 01:15:47,700
people to rid them of the plague
was Preposterous and we see that

1403
01:15:47,700 --> 01:15:49,700
now. 
So this will this will take some

1404
01:15:49,700 --> 01:15:54,000
time to change, but I think a 
seismic shift in how money Works

1405
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,200
has occurred. 
And we're all just while we 

1406
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:58,700
might be Is fading in this world
just kind of along for the ride 

1407
01:15:58,700 --> 01:16:02,800
at this point. 
I think this is this kind of 

1408
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:07,000
leads us to our last question. 
So looking back at the last five

1409
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,800
years that shape-shift has 
existed. 

1410
01:16:09,900 --> 01:16:12,400
So anything that you would have 
done differently in hindsight. 

1411
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:16,600
Yeah, I mean there's always a 
million mistakes that any 

1412
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:19,600
entrepreneur makes and I I'm 
certainly of that. 

1413
01:16:20,100 --> 01:16:23,100
Probably our biggest strategic 
mistake was simply building too 

1414
01:16:23,100 --> 01:16:26,500
many different products. 
At the same time we've seen so 

1415
01:16:26,500 --> 01:16:29,200
many Opportunities in crypto, 
that we kind of pursued too many

1416
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:32,600
of them too early on, instead of
focusing just on our core 

1417
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:34,800
business. 
So that was a lesson I've 

1418
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,300
learned, and we've corrected 
that now, by by building this 

1419
01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:40,200
platform, that is the entire 
company. 

1420
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,200
All of our energy now goes into 
this platform. 

1421
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,500
So that's something that I've 
learned and something I would 

1422
01:16:45,500 --> 01:16:50,600
change, you know, regarding the 
the whole kyc question. 

1423
01:16:51,100 --> 01:16:53,500
I think that was the right 
decision for us to take. 

1424
01:16:53,900 --> 01:16:56,500
It's been immensely painful in 
the short and medium term. 

1425
01:16:56,900 --> 01:16:59,200
I think it was the only way for 
us to keep building a company 

1426
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,300
over the long term. 
So I will have to, you know, 

1427
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,600
assess whether that was really 
the right decision, 10 5 or 10 

1428
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,600
years from now. 
But right now it's I think too 

1429
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,200
early to say great. 
Well, I would love to be able to

1430
01:17:12,700 --> 01:17:15,700
talk more in debate more. 
I agree with you on some on some

1431
01:17:15,700 --> 01:17:20,000
levels but I also think that 
like you know, Soviet Russia or 

1432
01:17:20,008 --> 01:17:22,500
Venezuela and all the 
transgressions there and the 

1433
01:17:22,500 --> 01:17:25,200
extremes there is sort of 
extreme libertarian. 

1434
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:27,800
Viewpoint also has As has its 
flaws. 

1435
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:31,000
And so, certainly, not perfect. 
Certainly not perfect. 

1436
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:35,500
But we'll have to leave it there
because we're we're running out 

1437
01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:37,100
of time here. 
But thank you so much for coming

1438
01:17:37,100 --> 01:17:39,700
on and start again. 
Eric, and look forward to having

1439
01:17:39,700 --> 01:17:41,000
you back on again, in the 
future. 

1440
01:17:41,700 --> 01:17:43,600
Yeah. 
Great discussion really, really 

1441
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,200
enjoyed it and for anyone that 
wants to check out the new shape

1442
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,200
shift. 
It's at shape-shifts.com and we 

1443
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:49,800
look forward to working with 
you. 

1444
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,700
So, thanks a lot. 
Thanks Eric. 

1445
01:17:51,900 --> 01:17:55,400
Thank you, Eric. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1446
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,800
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1447
01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:59,800
week. 
You can find And subscribe to 

1448
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,500
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1449
01:18:03,500 --> 01:18:06,000
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And if you have a Google home or

1450
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,700
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1451
01:18:08,708 --> 01:18:12,700
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01:18:12,700 --> 01:18:15,300
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1453
01:18:15,300 --> 01:18:17,600
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1454
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:21,000
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1455
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:24,300
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1456
01:18:24,300 --> 01:18:27,300
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1457
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:29,200
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1458
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,700
Well thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.

1459
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,300
On Twitter and please leave us a
review on iTunes helps people 

1460
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:29,200
find the show and we're always 
happy to read them. 

1461
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,700
Well thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.