1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,800 So we sort of industrialized the whole EDM chain ecosystem and we 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,600 can onboard EDM chains actually quite fast now. 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,200 So we have 3 to 400 million adders is labeled For every one 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,480 of those labels, we have evidence and documentation. 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,720 And of course a lot of that documentation is algorithmically 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,880 generated. It can get out of hand really 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,560 quickly and you can get like a negative spiral if you start 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,640 getting the wrong labels. You know, living up to our name, 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,560 we started using more AI for the labeling. 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,360 The challenge there is like you might end up with probabilistic 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,080 labels and like I was saying before you, you want to make 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,600 sure that the precision is as high as it can possibly be. 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:47,280 The machine is going to be doing like 99.95% of the work in terms 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,120 of the just the quantity of addresses, but the .05% of the 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,360 human does can be very valuable and it can also be used by the 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:14,520 machine to label all this stuff. This episode is proudly brought 17 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,400 to you by NOSIS, a visionary collective committed to 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,360 fostering and expanding applications for a decentralized 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,680 future. NOSIS is at the forefront of 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,680 innovation with Nosis Pay Circles and Metry 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,080 revolutionizing open banking and creating a superior form of 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,960 money. With Hashi and Nosus VPN, they 23 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,920 are building a more resilient and privacy focused open 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,600 Internet. Are you seeking a robust L1 to 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,680 launch your project? Well, look no further than Nosus 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,600 Chain. 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You can deploy your project on 35 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,000 the EVM compatible and highly decentralized Gnosis Chain or 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,400 help secure the network by running a validator with just a 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,760 single GNO and low cost hardware. 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,400 Embark on your journey towards decentralization today at gnosis 39 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,440 dot IO. Chorus One is one of the biggest 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,520 node operators globally and help you stake your tokens on 45 plus 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,200 networks like Ethereum, Cosmos, Celestia and DYDX. 42 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,880 More than 100,000 delegators stake with Chorus One, including 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,360 institutions like BIT, Go and Ledger. 44 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,840 Staking with Chorus One not only gets you the highest years, but 45 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,760 also the most robust security practices and infrastructure 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,280 that are usually exclusive for institutions. 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,120 You can stake directly to Chorus One's public note from your 48 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,280 wallet, set up a white label note, or use the recently 49 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,040 launched product Opus to stake up to 8000 ETH in a single 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,120 transaction. You can even offer high yield 51 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,480 staking to your own customers using their API. 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,600 Your assets always remain in your custody so you can have 53 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,200 complete Peace of Mind. Start staking today at Chorus 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,000 .1. Welcome to epicentre, the show 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 which talks about the technologies, projects and 56 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,720 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 57 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,440 I'm Fredrika Anne and today I'm speaking with Alex Vanwick, who 58 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,360 is the Co founder and CEO of Nansen, which is a blockchain 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,120 analytics company. We'll discuss them in a lot of 60 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,160 detail in just a bit. It's a pleasure to have you on, 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,000 Alex. Before we get started with 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,360 Nansen properly, tell tell us about yourself and what's your 63 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,440 background and how did you end up where you're now? 64 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,480 Yeah. No great to be here. 65 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,760 So depends how far back we want to go I guess. 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,560 My background initially is an AI. 67 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,240 That's my my degree from university in Edinburgh, UK. 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,960 So I was an AI before AI was cool is what I like to say. 69 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,760 So I spent a few years working with data science and machine 70 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,680 learning. Also a few years in management 71 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:20,120 consulting and in 2017 I discovered Ethereum during lunch 72 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:23,800 at work, some engineers who were very excited about it at the 73 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,960 company where I was working. And then I fell down the rabbit 74 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,360 hole very quickly because I think several people started 75 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,880 talking about Ethereum at the same time, and so it sort of 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:39,560 piqued my interest. This was the summer of 2017, and 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,600 so a few months later, I decided to leave my job as a data 78 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,400 science manager at the time and I moved to Hong Kong to join a 79 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,200 startup in the crypto space. So that was how I basically got 80 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:59,120 into crypto uh, sort of, I would say I, I was not definitely not 81 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,680 one of the earliest in crypto. I felt I was very late at the 82 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,680 time joining crypto. Now I feel like I'm kind of 83 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:12,160 veteran almost, which which I guess speaks to how young the 84 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,880 industry is. But basically after working a 85 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,120 few years in crypto, both with the startup that unfortunately 86 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,520 ran out of money pretty quickly. I spent some time with the 87 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:27,240 decentralized exchange protocol 0X helping them with with 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,000 analytics and understanding slippage across Texas and things 89 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,440 like that. In 2019 were to be little bit 90 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:39,160 with Aragon as well the Dow platform and as mostly as a 91 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,880 consultant helping them out with data and analytics. 92 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:48,480 And then I Co founded Nonsen, our company late 2019 early. 93 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,280 That's when we started working on it and we went to market 94 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,280 April 2020, about one month after COVID started when 95 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:59,440 everyone was gambling on governance tokens and and yield 96 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,640 farming during COVID. So that's kind of how I ended up 97 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,160 where I am now. So with your background and kind 98 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,160 of makes sense that you would found a blockchain analytics 99 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,280 company. You also, I mean, you also have 100 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:19,040 a background in a in AI and I assume general IT stuff. 101 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,880 So was it, was it kind of the, the fact that you felt like you 102 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,920 had already done this before? Did you kind of, was there a 103 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,920 larger mission to kind of ordering this mess that kind of 104 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,040 actually is kind of like if you run an archive note, you'll, 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,840 you'll learn nothing unless you kind of do proper analytics on 106 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,280 it, right? So what was what was, what was 107 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,680 the main motivation to kind of go into this, you know, full 108 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,320 time? It, I think it's a good 109 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,600 question. I think there are a few 110 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,440 different things happening at once. 111 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,560 I, I will maybe say that firstly from like a career perspective, 112 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:56,960 I thought of it as like a Venn diagram of two competencies, one 113 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,520 being data and the other one being blockchain. 114 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,400 I figured that if you are very good at both of those, you 115 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,480 probably end up in a intersection that's pretty 116 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,160 small. So from a career perspective, I 117 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,240 figured that it's a good idea to learn about these two things 118 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,360 because not that many people in the world are going to know 119 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,840 about those two things. That was probably from a career 120 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,360 perspective. And then I also like very 121 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:23,600 rapidly what became like sort of enamoured with the crypto 122 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,000 industry because when I was interacting with people on 123 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,720 Twitter and Telegram, things like that, I found that people 124 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,600 were very open minded and they were very inviting in a way that 125 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,240 was almost a bit surprising to me. 126 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,320 I kind of thought of crypto as being a little bit kind of, you 127 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,360 know, almost like antagonistic or adversarial because it's very 128 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,520 technical and a lot. But I found that people were 129 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,320 very open minded and sort of intellectually quite 130 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,320 interesting. So I think that also appealed to 131 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,640 me from like almost like a culture perspective. 132 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,160 And then there was another thing that was I think more specific 133 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,080 to data, maybe even more specific to to Europe, you know, 134 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,520 which is where I was based at the at the time, which is a 135 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,640 GDPR. Like privacy regulations were 136 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,760 kicking into full force. And I think I kind of became a 137 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,320 bit frustrated as a data scientist working with data. 138 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,560 And there were so many regulations you have to navigate 139 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,200 that it became really hard to do your job, frankly, like it was 140 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,400 because everything you had to, you know, check all the boxes 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,320 and all this stuff. And so I was, I kind of wanted 142 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,960 to work with data that was not like customer or user data. 143 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,880 I wanted to just work with data sets where you don't need to 144 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,720 like fill out a form to be able to use them. 145 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,559 And so blockchains were interesting because some so much 146 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,840 of it is from public blockchains, right? 147 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,800 The information is just there and the data is there. 148 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,760 And so you don't need to ask permission for someone to dive 149 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 into like all this exciting activity that's happening on 150 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,640 chain. So, so you know, those were some 151 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,400 of my personal reasons. And then I think if I look at it 152 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,280 from like the market opportunity side, you know, you didn't have 153 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,960 great analytics tools or products at that time. 154 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,520 I think there was really only one game in town for on chain 155 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,960 analytics, which was chain analysis. 156 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,720 I mean, you had other products like, and, and I don't want to 157 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,040 belittle them, but like most people knew about chain analysis 158 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:32,200 for AML purposes, but I felt that, you know, people who are 159 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,680 just in crypto who are trading or investing or using block 160 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:40,560 chains, they're not necessarily law enforcement or tax 161 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,080 authorities. They should have great analytics 162 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,920 products too. And so I felt like there was an 163 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,440 opportunity there to just provide them with a better 164 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,120 product so that they can understand what's happening on 165 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,760 chain and they could make better decisions investing. 166 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,120 They could, you know, make better decisions building 167 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,680 products and protocols and building block chains or L2's 168 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:04,200 now these days, right? So, so yeah, there's kind of 169 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,080 meant there were many different factors that sort of led me, led 170 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,240 me here. I can chime in here and say that 171 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:15,400 as a blockchain founder myself, I have used your tool a lot, 172 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:21,640 particularly for one use case for which it just beats all the 173 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,600 alternatives out there. And that is kind of you're very 174 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,720 good at labelling wallets and kind of saying who you think 175 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,560 they belong to, what kind of person or kind of it is. 176 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:40,400 And I, I'm super interested in how decentralized our token 177 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,960 holdership is, right? So kind of I would go to, I 178 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,800 would go to kind of like the noses token and kind of just 179 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:52,200 listed by kind of like by, by which address holds how many. 180 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,560 And I mean, in the beginning, I knew who a lot of the people at 181 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:00,200 the top of the list were, right? I mean, kind of that's the kind 182 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,120 of how, how, how projects start out. 183 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,000 But kind of kind of how, how, how far can I go down the list 184 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,960 until I find the first person who I honestly don't know who 185 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,280 that is. To me, that's been, that's 186 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,680 always been very comforting to know that kind of like there's 187 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:21,120 lots of people out there who are involved in the pro project in 188 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,720 some way and I have absolutely no idea who they are. 189 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,360 And I mean, that's, I mean, that's only increased over the 190 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,240 years. So, yeah. 191 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,600 But I, I, yeah. So this is this, this is how I 192 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,840 this is how I first learned about Nansen, I think when it 193 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,120 came out in 2020 or so. Yeah, you, you bring up that 194 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,240 that's like a very common use case, right? 195 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,120 Especially among builders who want to just understand their 196 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,920 investor base or like who's holding the token. 197 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,160 And, and I think you're right that this is also one of the 198 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,200 opportunities that we saw that, you know, in a way it wasn't 199 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,720 that interesting to just get the blockchain data because in 200 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,760 theory, anyone could, could do that. 201 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,160 The hard part is to figure out like what's the entity that's 202 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,640 associated with the address? And we saw an opportunity there 203 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,800 to, to sort of help people get more transparency on that front. 204 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,320 And, and you know, that is one of the core things that we do 205 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,480 very well, right? And and we have at this point 206 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,480 like 3-3, maybe even 400 million addresses labeled at this point. 207 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,520 I can speak to that as well because this is also one of the 208 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,480 use cases I use Nansen for. I check whether I have docs 209 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,280 myself. So obviously kind of I have on, 210 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,640 on different addresses and I try not to, to, I try to kind of 211 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,320 keep them apart. So kind of if, if you guys 212 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,760 don't, if they're not labeled or Nansen, I think I'm probably OK. 213 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,120 Yes, yeah, that is, that is true. 214 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,800 I mean, maybe you know, we should, we should also just call 215 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,960 out that, you know, if individuals have their name 216 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,760 label announced and they can contact us and we will and if 217 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,120 you want to remove it, we will remove it. 218 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,120 There are there's a bit of nuance to that because sometimes 219 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,480 people inadvertently ducks themselves on chain. 220 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,280 So they might like buy a dot ETH name or something like an ENS 221 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,400 and we can't do anything about that because that's immutable 222 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,040 and like etched into the the history of the blockchain. 223 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,640 But yeah, so, so you know, there, there's that this is like 224 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,000 a kind of a blessing and a curse of blockchains that they are 225 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,680 transparent, they're immutable, etcetera. 226 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,000 So what something that I've always wanted to ask you is 227 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,080 Nansen actually named after fridge of Nansen of passport 228 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,720 fame. OK, fantastic. 229 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,920 How that's right. Maybe, maybe tell us about 230 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,480 Nansen and kind of why you why you said it on that name? 231 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:48,000 Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I think a lot about culture in the 232 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,840 context of a company or a project. 233 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:56,360 And I felt that nonsen is kind of an embodiment of the values 234 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,960 we have in our company. And so values like courage, 235 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,200 curiosity, you know, nonsen, for those who are not aware, it is 236 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,640 most famous for actually, I've been a polar explorer. 237 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,400 He crossed Greenland on skis as the first person. 238 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,320 He went as far north on the globe as anyone had ever done. 239 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,120 And the same ship that he used, another polar explorer, reached 240 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,160 the South Pole first of any human being. 241 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,920 But he was also a scientist. And it was interestingly, it 242 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,640 sounds like you know him for his work on creating passports for 243 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,480 refugees. Yes, which which he did for, you 244 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,280 know, almost half a million people. 245 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,560 For stateless people, right? Yes, for stateless refugees, I 246 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,200 think mostly around Armenia. So he was, he was a, you know, 247 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,280 kind of a renaissance person, an explorer, scientist, a 248 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,120 humanitarian even had played a big role in the creation of 249 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,960 modern Kingdom of Norway. He convinced the Prince of 250 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,000 Denmark to become the king of Norway so that they could become 251 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,920 independent for Sweden in 19 O 5 But but yeah, so he's an 252 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,720 embodiment of a lot of the values that we live by at 253 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,000 nonsense curiosity, courage, transparency, speed, which is 254 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,040 important when you're doing an expedition. 255 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,360 You want to make sure you get there in time before you starve 256 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,640 or run out of you know what you need. 257 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,480 So, so yeah, so he's kind of an an icon. 258 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,800 And I think like it's I, I also kind of like the idea that bit 259 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,400 similar to Tesla, right, where like there's a you've named the 260 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,320 company after someone who's not the founder, but it's like an 261 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,320 inspiring person. And and then it's two syllables. 262 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,760 It's easy to pronounce in any language, which is nice. 263 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,920 So yeah, that's those are some of the reasons why we where we 264 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,960 named the company else. And was the the URL nansen dot 265 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,040 AI from the get go. Yes, it was. 266 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,680 And but I will say that the dot AI was aspirational in the 267 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,440 beginning in the sense that you know, my, so I said that in the 268 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,440 beginning my, my degree as an AI and I always knew that we would 269 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,120 be making use of AI for what we do things like labeling 270 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,160 addresses. Now we use AI for, you know, 271 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,280 estimating the price of an NFT that's fully machine learning 272 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,920 powered and it's part of our product, which is actually kind 273 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,280 of non trivial, right? If you have a specific NFT, how 274 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,960 much is this one valued based on its traits and for section 275 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,480 history, etcetera. We use AI to, you know, weed out 276 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,000 spam tokens, which there's a lot of, especially on chains that 277 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,840 have lower gas fees and things like that. 278 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,520 We use AI for personalizing signals in the product. 279 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,320 So I think, you know, Nelson, you know, we, we did have some 280 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,280 foresight in that we knew that AI was going to become, you 281 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,680 know, a big part of the world. It happened admittedly a bit 282 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,359 sort of faster or more suddenly than I personally expected. 283 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,359 But we're leading into the AI even more now than than we were 284 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,520 originally. And so it's not like there's one 285 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,760 AI angle with nonsen. It's more like it sort of powers 286 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,440 the whole product in many different ways. 287 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,920 So, yeah, that's, that's always been the been been the, the 288 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,760 ambition to make sure that we are an AI trailblazer and we're 289 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,640 making use of AI and great ways in the product and in the 290 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,000 organization. Cooler, let's maybe dive into 291 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,480 the the core of your product. So kind of like you started out 292 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,240 with, and that's very much your core offering is kind of 293 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:51,040 analytics for on chain data. Most people who don't work on 294 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,640 actual blocks themselves, they don't appreciate how much 295 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,400 engineering effort actually goes into kind of creating like a 296 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,280 state and the database and so on. 297 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,080 Can, can you maybe talk us through that kind of what, what, 298 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,760 what kind of say, say I have an Ethereum archive node, it's a TB 299 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,240 or whatever kind of the, the current site depends on kind of 300 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,240 what, what you're running, but and how, how do I get from there 301 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,360 to kind of something that I can actually query? 302 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,280 Yeah. So the way we do it mostly is we 303 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:31,960 make use of, you know, RPC Jason endpoints from the notes and 304 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,240 then we pull out specific data from from the notes. 305 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,880 And so you pull out the blocks and they have transactions and 306 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:47,160 you, you, if you want to go one level deeper, you parse out the 307 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,560 events from smart contract interactions. 308 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:56,840 Like if you have the ABI of a smart contract, then you would 309 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,040 use that to be able to parse out the data that's that's included 310 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,320 in the transactions. So, so that's kind of the, I 311 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,640 mean that's sort of like at a very high level, you know how 312 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,960 you do it. And you know, we, we actually 313 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,520 started out with a pretty different tech stack and 314 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,280 architecture and we've changed that recently. 315 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,040 So we we used to use, so one of my Co founders is the creator of 316 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:26,120 an open source project called Etherium ETL, which which 317 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:29,800 basically does this in an open source manner for Etherium. 318 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,760 And so you can actually like index all this data, you know, 319 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,600 if you have an endpoint or you run it on node and you have that 320 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,040 endpoint, you can index all this into like CSV files or into, you 321 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,200 know, a database. And so, so he, he built that and 322 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,960 that was kind of, that was one of the building blocks that we 323 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,120 used to get started. Over the years though, we have 324 00:19:55,360 --> 00:20:00,120 basically moved over to a different paradigm of loading 325 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:02,600 the data. Initially it was, you know, 326 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,440 Ethereum ETL, so extract, transform, load, which many data 327 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,960 engineers and so on will be familiar with. 328 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:12,920 Now we do basically ELT extract, load, transform. 329 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,280 So one of the reasons we do it this way now is because we 330 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,120 integrate with lots of different chains and different chains 331 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:20,600 might have slightly different schemas. 332 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,520 So the idea is if you first can just extract the data from the 333 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:33,880 the Jason RPC endpoint and you can just load the raw data in, 334 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,760 then you can transform it later. So it's sort of you delay the 335 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,280 transformation and the schema harmonisation of all the data 336 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,000 and to to a later point. And then we've also changed the 337 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,480 the database that we use, We used to be based on Bigquery, 338 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,320 which is a Google Cloud sort of proprietary analytical data 339 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,400 warehouse technology. Now we use something called pick 340 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,440 house, which is also an, an analytical database, but it's 341 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,760 more performant for the type of use that we have. 342 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,120 So in the past we might have a dashboard that I don't know when 343 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,360 you were most using nonsense, but nonsense version one was 344 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:14,040 actually pretty slow and it some of the dashboards would load in 345 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,080 like 30 seconds, which is kind of hilarious if we look back at 346 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,240 it now. But with with click house, you 347 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,800 know, the same dashboard might load and like, you know, 300 348 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,640 milliseconds or something like that. 349 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,440 So, so we, we may, we've actually kind of evolved our 350 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,560 tech stack and replaced the whole thing, both the data 351 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,520 pipelines to sort of extraction of the data and also how we 352 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,880 store the data and how we could query it etcetera. 353 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,920 So which chains do you currently support? 354 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320 So we we actually have kind of a suite of different products. 355 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,560 So for example, if you look at Nonsense portfolio, which is our 356 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,320 portfolio tracker, we support more than 50 chains. 357 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,600 And so it, it's kind of all of the usual suspects, you know, 358 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,920 Bitcoin, Ethereum, even Solana and then a long tail of EDM 359 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:10,640 chains. And for Bunsen query, which is 360 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,000 kind of the enterprise product where you can write sequel 361 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,600 queries and people make dashboards, we support about I 362 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,720 think it's 20 plus chains. So they'll be fewer, but still 363 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,200 120 and then announcing 2, which is the product that actually 364 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,680 most people know, which is kind of the the product that you've 365 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,320 used and where you see your your holders for the token, token God 366 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:36,040 Mode profiler, we support, I think it's now just over 12 367 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,400 chains, but we're adding a lot of chains every quarter actually 368 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,720 to it. And so, yeah, so, so sort of 369 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,440 depends a bit on which, which products you're actually using. 370 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,800 But the, the ambition is to be adding like roughly 1 chain per 371 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,200 month or more going forward because you do have like the, 372 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,840 the world is very multi chain at the moment. 373 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,960 And so you want to make sure that you're supporting all the 374 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,480 chains that people care about them that they use. 375 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,240 And you know, we've sort of invested a lot in our tech, in 376 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:14,400 our tech to make it both faster and and frankly cheaper for us 377 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,360 to integrate new chains. So we sort of industrialized the 378 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:24,280 whole EDM chain ecosystem and we can onboard EDM Chase actually 379 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,080 quite fast now. Yeah. 380 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,880 So, so, so that's kind of how we how we look at it. 381 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,600 Interestingly, there are a lot of non EDM chains that want to 382 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,480 integrate with us, which on the one hand is great because you 383 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,360 you want to support them, but on the other hand it's also quite 384 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,400 technically challenging because you have to sort of build a 385 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,040 bespoke solution for every chain almost. 386 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,040 But but yeah, EV, the EVM chain use case, we've sort of 387 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,120 industrialised in house. I am sure you kind of you have 388 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:55,760 protocols for that, but how do you ensure kind of data accuracy 389 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,280 and the reliability of the analysis? 390 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,080 Yeah, you can. You can sort of talk about data 391 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,520 accuracy or data quality in a few different ways in our 392 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,880 product. So the most basic data accuracy 393 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,800 is about the onshare data itself, right? 394 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,880 So you want to make sure that you're not missing data that you 395 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,240 know, you have tests where you see, you know, the number of 396 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,320 transactions, is it in line with today, with what you saw 397 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,760 yesterday and that kind of stuff. 398 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,120 So you can have basic sort of almost like unit tests, data 399 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,280 quality checks on that. I think the harder part though, 400 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,520 is on the attribution, the labelling of addresses, right? 401 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,520 That and that's where there's potentially room for error. 402 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,120 And so, you know, our philosophy is that we would rather not have 403 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,960 a label that have a wrong label. And so that means we have very 404 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,560 strict requirements on precision. 405 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,080 And so as an example, we for, you know, I mentioned we have 3 406 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,560 to 400 million adders labeled. For every one of those labels, 407 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,000 we have evidence and documentation. 408 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,200 And of course, a lot of that documentation is algorithmically 409 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,160 generated, but you can always look up, you know, if this 410 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,120 address has this label, why does it have the label? 411 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,000 So there's, you always have the documentation for it. 412 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,480 And I think this is something that we, we take pride in that 413 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,920 we, we actually take that stuff really seriously because it can 414 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,320 get out of hand really quickly. And you can get like a negative 415 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,840 spiral if you start getting the wrong labels. 416 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,600 Because typically what happens is if you're looking at a new 417 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,200 address and you want to label it, you start looking at what 418 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,320 are the labels of the addresses, the, the neighbours of that 419 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,000 address. And so if you have a wrong 420 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,480 label, it can propagate very quickly and it goes out of 421 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,920 control. And of course, you know, you get 422 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,160 more wrong labels. That's the first thing. 423 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,240 But secondly, more importantly, it can impact the user 424 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,480 experience if people see a wrong label and it's lose trust in 425 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,360 your product. So this is something we take 426 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:59,240 very seriously. And, and, and we, of course you 427 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,240 will always, you will always have some errors like that's, 428 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,120 it's just not possible to have literally 100% precision. 429 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,480 But it's actually very rare that we have incorrect labels. 430 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:16,120 And even if you do arguably have incorrect labels, very often 431 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,080 there's a very logical explanation for it. 432 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,240 So at some point I remember we were called out for having 433 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,240 labeled the address Doquan. And you know, we were told that 434 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,200 that was incorrect, but it turned out that it was basically 435 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,280 Terra Labs or you know, the company related to it. 436 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,720 So so you know, is that an error? 437 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,240 Like maybe it is in a strict sense, but of course, you know, 438 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,360 it's a very related entity and you might have similar thing 439 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:47,320 with like some Suzu or or three arrows and and things like that. 440 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,440 But you know, we take pride in having the best precision on the 441 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,480 labeling that we do. And this is something that's 442 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,080 very important to us. Which specific heuristics do you 443 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,920 actually use to kind of generate the labels, I mean, and how do 444 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,400 you come up with them? I'm sure you kind of add stuff 445 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,280 all the time, right? Yeah. 446 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:13,360 So it's a combination of man and machine, right? 447 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:19,440 So the heuristics would be, some of them are deterministic and 448 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,400 quite simple, right? So think of you want to label 449 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,600 every Unisop pool, then you can literally just look at the 450 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,520 Unisop factory. And like we were talking about 451 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,000 earlier, you can, you know, look at the events that are emitted 452 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,480 and the events contain all the information that 453 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,080 deterministically say here are all the UNICER pools. 454 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,200 This is like the easy case. And in theory, anyone who can 455 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,640 like read blockchain data and have a system for this could, 456 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,960 could do this. Then there are other things that 457 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,520 are more complex like exchanges, centralized exchanges, because 458 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,920 they're technically the information is not deterministic 459 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,520 from just the on chain data. You need to do some inference 460 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,080 and you need to understand like how these entities manage 461 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:04,840 private keys and manage addresses. 462 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:10,640 And so there you typically have kind of the baseline heuristic 463 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,000 that is sort of somewhat universal for any exchange. 464 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,600 So you might say, actually, if you send funds to an address and 465 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,560 the address automatically forwards it to what we call a 466 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,760 main wallet, like a finance main wallet, then you could be pretty 467 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,760 sure that that wallet is a deposit wallet for the exchange, 468 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,880 right? And so this is going to be, you 469 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,280 know, correct in most cases, but you may have to tweak it and you 470 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,360 need to curate the main wallets because those can update, right? 471 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,200 Let's say HTX or, you know, gate IO might get a new main wallet. 472 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,680 Do you need to make sure that you're on top of that and you 473 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,440 need to have sort of alerting in in house if you see lots of 474 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,640 funds move because maybe they move to a new like cold wallet 475 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,400 or a new hot wallet and so on and so forth. 476 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,840 So, and and so you, you can state these heuristics 477 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,960 programmatically and you can label upload addresses in this 478 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,040 way. So it's kind of like an 479 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,520 inventory of many different heuristics. 480 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760 And sometimes the heuristics can build off of each other. 481 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,480 But you know, living up to our name, we started using more AI 482 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:25,000 for the labeling recently. But the challenge there is like 483 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,400 you might end up with probabilistic labels and like I 484 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,000 was saying before you, you want to make sure that the precision 485 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,680 is as high as it can possibly be. 486 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,800 And so I kind of. But yeah, it comes back to the 487 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,240 same point where you have this man and machine set up where the 488 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,440 machine is going to be doing like 99.95% of the work in terms 489 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,760 of the just the quantity of addresses. 490 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,760 But the .05% of the human does can be very valuable and it can 491 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,560 also be used by the machine to label all the stuff. 492 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,560 And so, yeah, so it's interesting, right? 493 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,480 Because the, the AI approach we started making use of now they 494 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,640 kind of like almost sit in between the sort of the man and 495 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,040 machine, like the human and the machine. 496 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,360 But we've, we've seen anything you can also, by the way, you 497 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,520 can look at, I mean depends like how far down the rabbit hole you 498 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,480 want to go. But you can also look at the 499 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,880 economics of it, like how much does it cost us to label an 500 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,800 address, right? Like if you if you just think of 501 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,440 the human labour or even like the cloud cost of the 502 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,080 heuristics, and then you start looking at like optimizing that 503 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,800 and saying actually, you know, the heuristics very cheap. 504 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,040 So you want to make sure that the heuristics can label as much 505 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,840 as they can. And you want to be very 506 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,400 selective of what you use human labor power for because that can 507 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,520 be like $10 per label maybe depending on, you know, many 508 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,640 different factors. So, so yeah, we're, this is kind 509 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,040 of an interesting optimization problem over time that you you 510 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,760 have to like balance out different things. 511 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,520 You want to make sure precision is very high. 512 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,280 You want to make sure that also the the recall or the coverage 513 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,240 is very high. You want to label as many 514 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,000 addresses as you can. You also want to make sure that 515 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,840 you can do it in a timely manner so that you can label addresses 516 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,280 very fast. And you want to make sure that 517 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,040 the economics are permissible so you don't break the bank. 518 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,000 If it costs us like $20 million to label 20 million addresses, 519 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,600 like, yeah, that's probably not going to work, right? 520 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,880 So, yeah, so, so there are many interesting back to Sarah and 521 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,880 like this in a way this is kind of the most unique thing we do 522 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,600 at the company, right, If you think about it and it's it's 523 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,400 exciting because it's one of the areas that probably can be, you 524 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,200 know, enhanced the most with AI in my opinion. 525 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,840 Yeah, absolutely. And how fast do you label these 526 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,800 addresses and big movements? I'm asking you because obviously 527 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,000 this kind of, if you're a trader, this can actually give 528 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,320 you a lot of alpha, right? So, so if someone kind of moves 529 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,600 funds from a cold from a known cold wallet to a hot wallet, 530 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,600 chances are they're going to sell them possibly on, on an 531 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,040 exchange. So you, you might kind of want 532 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,240 to front run them in the traditional sense, not in the 533 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,600 blockchain sense. So how, how fast do you do this? 534 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,800 And do people explicitly use it for this sort of use case? 535 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,400 Yeah. So we have a feature called hot 536 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,600 Contracts. And what hot contracts does is 537 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,600 it looks at newly deployed smart contracts that have a lot of 538 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:39,040 funds going into them. And hot contracts now actually 539 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,280 very soon, like probably in a matter of weeks, is going to be 540 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:49,600 enhanced with AI labeling. And so that means the idea is 541 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,760 like probably, I don't know if they will be minutes because you 542 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,280 kind of need to accumulate a bit of data on the address in terms 543 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,200 of transactional patterns and stuff like that. 544 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:07,960 But yeah, maybe minutes at most hours, you know, you'd let loose 545 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,360 the army of AI labelers on these hot contracts. 546 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,200 And because we will have tuned and, and quality assured the 547 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:22,360 position, you'll be able to get pretty descriptive labels of 548 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,000 what these contracts actually are, right? 549 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,960 The the, it's interesting, right? 550 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,040 Because in a way, like some of our users are very sort of power 551 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,240 users and advanced users, they sort of see the alpha in us not 552 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,160 having labeled an address because they know that that's 553 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,120 like a new address. And because it's not labeled 554 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,480 yet, if they figure out what this address is, they might be 555 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,840 sort of one step ahead of the game. 556 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,160 And so if you look at hot, the hot contracts table, ironically, 557 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,840 a lot of the addresses are not labeled. 558 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,640 But I think that's going to change literally like in a 559 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,200 matter of weeks when we roll this out. 560 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,160 And so I think some of the people who are using that 561 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,600 feature, hot contracts are, are probably going to see like it 562 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,600 almost like a night and day, you know, change in that view. 563 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,440 For other types of addresses, it depends like a fund, typically 564 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,040 it takes a while to actually figure out what the fund is. 565 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,280 So if they move like AVC fund or like a liquid venture fund or 566 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,440 something, if they move funds from one address to another, 567 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,320 that's maybe one of the more clear cut cases. 568 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,239 But if you have a totally new address that is like providing 569 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,719 funds in a seed round or something like that, it can be 570 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,000 quite tricky. You need to have multiple data 571 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,080 points to figure it out. And so those cases you can't 572 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,920 talk about like minutes or hours, that's like, you know, 573 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,199 days or weeks or maybe months. So it really depends on like 574 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,360 what kind of what kind of address or what kind of entity 575 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,200 we're talking about. So for the for the newly deep 576 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:04,120 people like smart contracts, do you also, do you also speculate 577 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,440 about kind of what it's going to do? 578 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,680 I mean, is it kind of does it, Is there a label that says we 579 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,160 think this is this is this is a newly launched PAP exchange or 580 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,720 something? Yeah, so, so the so the idea, 581 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,960 the idea is like with labels, right? 582 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,760 There are a few different ways to think about labels. 583 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,960 One is just give it a name, right. 584 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,440 So like, you know, Gnosis chain something, you know, prognosis 585 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,600 and bridge or something like that, right? 586 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,800 But then there's a category to which I guess is what you're 587 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,880 getting at. So you have a category 588 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,720 description. So this is like a staking 589 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,960 contract. It's a bridge, it's a deck, it's 590 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,680 a, it's a defy pool, it's a yield farm. 591 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,240 Like there's sort of a taxonomy of different things it could be. 592 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,120 And the idea is it what we're aiming to do is both give it a 593 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,880 name, a specific name and also give it a category. 594 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,440 And, and in fact, like the category also, it doesn't always 595 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,720 need to fall into one category. So you might want to give it 596 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:12,560 like multiple different labels from like multiple different 597 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,920 indicators, right? So this is both the staking 598 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,640 contract and it's a token. Like think of staked Eat with 599 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,200 Lido, for example. That's kind of, it doesn't need 600 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,360 to fall into one category. So the idea is to do both, like 601 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,880 give it a name and give it a category. 602 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,320 So I've not tried this yet. So if if you were to kind of put 603 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:38,280 a newly deployed smart contract or any smart contract into into 604 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,320 ChatGPT or any of its competitors, will it be able to 605 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,320 tell you what what it does? No, if, if it were that easy, 606 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,640 then we would have just done that. 607 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,640 We have, we have tried. No, but you have to. 608 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,080 You don't want to, I guess like give away too much of the secret 609 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,840 sauce. But but you have to sort of, you 610 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,440 do have to use ChatGPT as a good idea to use ChatGPT, but you 611 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,160 have to sort of guide it with the right prompts and make it 612 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,600 use the right sources for it. OK. 613 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,560 So kind of you, you want, you want ChatGPT to kind of figure 614 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,400 out what's the business logic behind this smart contract? 615 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,800 Yeah, kind of. And you have to sort of chain it 616 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,960 like do multiple steps, right. So it's like, yeah, yeah, I 617 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,200 don't want to give away too much, but but the idea is like 618 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,360 roughly you want to try to make it understand you wanted to make 619 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,840 sure, you want to make sure that it has all the information A and 620 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:40,200 then B, that it can synthesize all of the information and then, 621 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,360 you know, put it into like a meaningful category or give it a 622 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,960 meaningful name. And then, you know, so you can, 623 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:52,000 you can think of this as like you have LLNS and then, you 624 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,280 know, you could fine tune LLMS, but it's actually in practice, 625 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,240 you end up making better use of the context than you do to fine 626 00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,600 tune the LLM. And then you also do it 627 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,240 iteratively. So you kind of ask it to solve 628 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,520 multiple different problems iteratively or like in a 629 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,960 sequence. And then at the end you kind of 630 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,680 get something that is useful, but it's more so it's, you 631 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,400 could, you know, the very sort of short form way of putting it. 632 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,800 It's like it's a form of prompt engineering, but it's, it's 633 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,720 actually like pretty involved prompt engineering. 634 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,520 Yeah, I can imagine. Sorry, just one more thing on 635 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,600 that, right? Because it's not enough like 636 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,680 ChatGPT doesn't have our existing 300 million address 637 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,960 labels, right? And so that's where you get kind 638 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:38,040 of an edge to because our own version of this can also tap 639 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,400 into the existing labels we have. 640 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,280 And because of that compounding effect, I said earlier, we're 641 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,840 like, if you know the neighbours, it can help you 642 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,280 figure out what the label of this one is. 643 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,600 You get this kind of sort of a Moat that's built around kind of 644 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,640 being able to label stuff with high precision and very fast. 645 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,480 Yeah, absolutely. You guys also use AI on the 646 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,960 other side. So kind of if I I'm a user, I 647 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,440 search for stuff. You you have smart search and 648 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,400 similar similar things. How does? 649 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,080 How does? What does it allow me to do and 650 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,520 how does it work? Yeah. 651 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,960 So maybe on this end, probably the best example is signals, 652 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,800 which is a feed and almost looks like a Twitter feed or 653 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,360 something. And you have sort of these cards 654 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,160 and each card is a signal that we've observed on chain. 655 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:33,560 And so this could be, you know, Pepe token has, you know, this 656 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,080 amount of $1,000,000 going into centralized exchanges. 657 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,280 That's 20 times more than an average day. 658 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,720 Like that's an example of a signal. 659 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,120 And these signals are personalized based on, you know, 660 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,000 what you have done in our platform. 661 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:52,000 So if you have saved certain tokens to your watch list, if 662 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,720 you have maybe added certain addresses to your watch list or 663 00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:59,800 NFTS, and then soon, this is something we're rolling out in 664 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,840 the next few months. We're bringing together our 665 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,160 portfolio tracker with the analytics product. 666 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,640 So if you have your portfolio tracked with us, we can 667 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,520 personalized signals that you see in your feed based on your, 668 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,800 your, your own portfolio and your history, the history of 669 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,240 trading and so on and so forth. So it's actually a toggle and 670 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,800 the product where you can switch on and off personalization. 671 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,640 So either you can just get the kind of vanilla feed that 672 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,440 everyone gets, or you can get a personalized feed based on, you 673 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,720 know, what you have indicated to us that you're interested in 674 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,200 through your behavior and the platform, what you search for, 675 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,000 what you've saved, and so on and so forth. 676 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,600 So this is kind of, this isn't new, right? 677 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,720 This is just, you know, what Amazon has been doing since 678 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,400 almost the 90s or at least early 2000s in like people who are 679 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,400 interested in this are also interested in that like 680 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,720 recommender systems. So this part isn't necessarily 681 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,720 that new, but interestingly, you haven't seen a lot of 682 00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,800 personalization in Web 3 yet, which is something that's a 683 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,000 little bit puzzling. I think it's maybe because 684 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,680 firstly, it's a very young space, but secondly, we didn't 685 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,840 have like enough data that it was needed. 686 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,000 People could still just go on coin Gecko and like find the 687 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,160 coin. But I think we've, we've entered 688 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,840 the era now where you have literally millions of assets. 689 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,600 And so it's no longer feasible to just search for the asset you 690 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,040 care about. You actually need to get stuff 691 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,840 recommended to you because the inventory has become so large 692 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,640 that it's not, you can't just look through it in a catalogue 693 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,920 or like on a ranking. And so that's why I think now 694 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,440 personalization is probably going to play a bigger role in 695 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,240 crypto and that's what we're trying to lead into. 696 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,960 And obviously you make use of machine learning and AI to make 697 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,360 that happen at scale. So that actually puts you in a 698 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,280 super powerful position because not only do you have really well 699 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,960 organized repertory of all the data that's on chain, you also 700 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,880 have kind of like the private user data that they share with 701 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,120 you. Do you, is there kind of some 702 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,880 sort of ethics codecs of kind of like how you treat the user data 703 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,200 that's kind of shared with you? Do you kind of do you monetize 704 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,120 that? Do you kind of use that to kind 705 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,440 of cross reference things behind the scenes? 706 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,440 Yeah, I mean, there are, yeah, it's a great question, right? 707 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,000 Naturally, you have to first of all respect just general privacy 708 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,760 regulations, right, GDPR and so on and so forth. 709 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,200 And so, so and that's, you know, has its own sort of set of rules 710 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,240 and things to to make sure that you're not violating, right, and 711 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,520 that there's consent and so on and so forth. 712 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,680 Secondly, you know, we have a Chinese wall. 713 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,600 This is because this is a concern I think that many people 714 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,800 have, and it's a valid concern. It's like if I use nonsen, are 715 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,960 you going to use what I searched for to label like my addresses, 716 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:53,960 for example? If I search for my own address, 717 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,520 you're going to use that. And the answer is no, because 718 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,320 there's literally a Chinese wall between the department that has 719 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,360 access to any user data and the department that has access to 720 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,200 labeling wallets. And it's kind of hard for us to 721 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,760 prove this because we're not like an open source company, 722 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,480 obviously our project, but that that's the reality. 723 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,640 And so that's in our privacy policy. 724 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,240 And it's also how the company is structured. 725 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,720 And literally people don't have access to both of those two 726 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,680 things at once. We don't monetize that data. 727 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,800 I don't think it, I don't think we, we, we, we don't need to 728 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,720 like we don't have an ads based business model. 729 00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,520 Like our business model is very straightforward. 730 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,800 You just pay for the subscription and you know, you 731 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,760 get access to the product. So in a way, I kind of like the 732 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,760 business model because it's the most transparent. 733 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,880 Business model. You yeah, it's very honest. 734 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,440 This many people don't like it because they're so used to 735 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,360 getting stuff for free, but on the back end their data is being 736 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,040 sold to. Yeah, exactly. 737 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,720 So in a way, I feel like we're like the this the the dumb 738 00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:59,680 honest people like we're just charging you to use the product 739 00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:02,480 and like, that's it. We don't need to have some like 740 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,240 nefarious way to exploit their data on the back end. 741 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,920 You could give people the choice. 742 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,480 You could say, do you, do you, do you, do you want to be 743 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:15,000 private and you, you pay or do you, do you want us to kind of 744 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,720 monetise your data in some other way and you get to use it for 745 00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,680 free. Yeah, maybe maybe that's an 746 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,440 idea. Yeah, I mean, I, I will like on 747 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,360 the topic of business models, right, I think I sort of think 748 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,360 of ads as the the default business model of Web two. 749 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160 And I think that the default business model of Web three is 750 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:40,000 going to be transactional. So you know, it's not unlikely 751 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,640 that our subscription model at some point will get displaced by 752 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,120 a more transactional business model. 753 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,280 So does that mean maybe you have cow swap integrated into nonsen 754 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,920 and when you find tokens, a token God Mode, you click buy 755 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,080 and you execute the trade through cow swap and maybe cow 756 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,280 swap and nonsen share any fees that are involved in that, 757 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,360 right. So, you know, that to me seems 758 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,360 like a more future proof business model and I'm not super 759 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,520 excited about the ads business model, but yeah, that's a that's 760 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,360 a big kind of strategic topic on its own. 761 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:25,400 Kind of thinking forward, how do you see the rise of privacy? 762 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,720 I mean, kind of a lot of your business model kind of hinges on 763 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,480 the fact that things on chain are inherently transparent, 764 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,960 right? So with the rise of privacy 765 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,640 preserving technologies on chain, how do you think that's 766 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,160 going to change? Yeah. 767 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:49,120 I mean, I think of this as you can't have both at the same time 768 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,480 to the maximum extent. And so it becomes a trade off as 769 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,440 with many things in technology, you can't have full privacy and 770 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,040 you can't have full transparency at the same time. 771 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,000 And so, you know, our product makes the most sense obviously 772 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,080 when there's room to have transparency. 773 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,560 And so I think the reality is that many people value the 774 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,120 transparency of block chains because it gives them a sense of 775 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,080 comfort that if you know that, hey, the funds that are sitting 776 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:25,120 in Avenue, I can actually like see all of the transactions that 777 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,720 have ever happened with Ave. and I can see all the funds sitting 778 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:31,680 in the smart contract and so on and so forth. 779 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,520 That gives people a sense of comfort. 780 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,680 They might not actually do it, but the fact that they know they 781 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,360 can do it may give some sort of more trust. 782 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:48,680 And if you contrast that to say, a bank or an FTX, then you kind 783 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,240 of quickly realize that the lack of transparency can become an 784 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:57,480 issue. So I think our product naturally 785 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,800 works best when you have chains that are public and transparent. 786 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:09,080 It seems obvious to me as like a consumer that block chains in 787 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,560 their current form don't really work really well for payments, 788 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,680 for example, and things you might want to do in your daily 789 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,880 life where you do want to have more privacy. 790 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,560 And I think it makes sense that you'll probably get some, some 791 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,840 world where either protocols or even chains or L twos, you know, 792 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,800 have full privacy, but maybe there are some guardrails or 793 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,200 like some rules around it. So I'm not saying I this is what 794 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,560 I want, but I think like one way, one way you might imagine 795 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:47,080 this is what if you had an L2 that basically had privacy 796 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:52,320 somehow, but you could not make transactions over some certain 797 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,880 amount, you know, size, right? Again, I'm not saying this is 798 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,080 necessarily the word I want, but I could see that's being 799 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,160 something that regulators might be more comfortable with than 800 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,720 one where there's like no limit. And you know, Lazarus from North 801 00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:13,680 Korea can, you know, potentially transact hundreds of millions of 802 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,120 dollars in volumes. So I think I think you can look 803 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,640 at look at it from sort of an ethical slash moral perspective. 804 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,080 And then you can also look at it just from a sort of a pragmatic 805 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,800 perspective, like what what are regulators going to always 806 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,200 allow? And and then finally, you can 807 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,440 look at it just from a trade off perspective, like if you if you 808 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,800 interact with something that has full privacy, what are you 809 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,840 giving up in terms of transparency? 810 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,440 And then there's like interesting solutions around 811 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:49,120 zero knowledge proofs and so on, which in some cases can give you 812 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,080 sort of the trust you want and like some form of transparency 813 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,160 without revealing everything that's going on. 814 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,960 But I think it's it's a really interesting space. 815 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,760 I don't think you'll ever get to a point where everything you do 816 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,520 on chain is totally private. And I think that also defies 817 00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:09,200 the, the, the object to a certain extent, right? 818 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,680 So I mean, what, what ideally you, you kind of want this kind 819 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:19,280 of transparency for the man and, and kind of like privacy for the 820 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,640 little guy, right? So kind of you, you, you want 821 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,200 part, you want, you want transparency to kind of hold 822 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,080 power accountable. But you, you, you don't. 823 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,920 So you, you want to know what your government spends its money 824 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,920 on. You don't need to know what your 825 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,960 neighbour spends and the. And the crazy thing is it's like 826 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,000 the inverse in, you know, the world, in, in many countries, 827 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,360 it's the inverse, right? Where like governments can see 828 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,240 everything you do in in practice, like they could just 829 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,960 reach out to a bank, get all your data or whatnot, or they 830 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:55,640 could sort of have a, you know, some sort of back channel into 831 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,520 your web two products, you know, whether that's Google or Twitter 832 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,920 or whatever. But then, you know, there's 833 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:07,760 really no transparency on like how they're like where where did 834 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,960 all of that money that was spent on initiative X by the 835 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,760 government go and so on and so forth. 836 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,040 Yeah, totally. So I think you do want 837 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:21,560 transparency for the people you elect for sure, right. 838 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,000 That's in a way it's kind of crazy that you don't have that 839 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,000 in like every democracy, literally down to every 840 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,800 transaction that they make with taxpayers money, right. 841 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,200 So, so exactly like that, you know, could there be like a 842 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,920 nonsense for all government spending? 843 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,720 Yeah, that'd be amazing. Like I would love that. 844 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,720 Kind of. Yeah, I would absolutely love 845 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:44,400 that. So you you alluded to this in 846 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,560 the very beginning. So you will label well known 847 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,840 people on chain. So obviously there's ethical 848 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,600 considerations kind of that come with it. 849 00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:02,280 So say I'm dope one and I feel like I don't, I mean, you have 850 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,120 rightly labeled me, but I don't want this to be no nonchain. 851 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,000 Can I can I kind of send you an e-mail and you will delete the 852 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:12,840 the label or what? What's your policy? 853 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,720 Yeah, you can. I mean, that's the short answer. 854 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,280 Yes, you can, but there's always, there's always been a 855 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,040 new answer. And maybe it might be helpful 856 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,160 just to explain like how you get there in the 1st place, like why 857 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,280 someone, an individual might get their name on an address, right? 858 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,360 And that's typically because there's information in the 859 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,880 public domain that we can point to. 860 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,920 So for example, someone says on a governance forum, hey, this is 861 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,520 my address I'm voting on, you know, initiative X or proposed 862 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:50,200 Lex, and they are basically declaring that they own this 863 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,080 address, right? And, and of course, there are 864 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,160 caveats to that, like someone could just be pretending to be 865 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,600 them and so on and so forth. But if that is credible, we 866 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,800 would label that and then you could point to that in your 867 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,640 evidence, right? If they then choose that, 868 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,800 actually, I don't want that to be labeled. 869 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,880 I want it to be deleted. Yeah, then we will do that. 870 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,600 But at least that's the explanation of like how the 871 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,640 information ended up in our database in the 1st place, 872 00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,800 right? So it's not like we go around 873 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,160 trying to sniff out, you know, normal people's sort of 874 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,040 individual names and like label our. 875 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,920 People showed us when they kind of do transactions at ECC. 876 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,800 No, absolutely not. And in fact, like, you know, 877 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,880 you, if we, if we wanted to do stuff like that, I mean, maybe 878 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,400 not that, that thing exactly, but if we wanted to sort of go 879 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,840 on Twitter and hunt down every time someone like is a little 880 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,520 bit silly and declaring something, for example, 881 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,920 responding to tweets about post your address and you'll get an 882 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,240 AirDrop or, you know, here is my new NFT that I bought, which 883 00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:02,320 again, uniquely, you know, basically doxes your wallet. 884 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,000 If you wanted to do that kind of stuff systematically, like we 885 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,560 could, but we just don't think that's the right thing to do 886 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,080 firstly. And secondly, I don't think it's 887 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,000 like newsworthy in the sense like people, the what we do can 888 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,520 be seen as a form of journalism, right? 889 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:22,080 So then you have to kind of ask yourself like, OK, if Vitalik 890 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,080 has a wallet that has like, you know, a billion dollars in it, 891 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:26,880 yeah, that's newsworthy. People should probably know 892 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,440 about that. If the founder of a project, you 893 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,760 know, has a lot of money in that token, that's newsworthy. 894 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,360 People should know about that. If some person has a 200 bucks, 895 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,480 you know, and bought some NFT on base and then they told someone 896 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,280 about that on Twitter, we don't systematically track down that 897 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,840 information and put it into our system. 898 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,960 We could in theory, because it's public information, but we don't 899 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,880 really do it. Sure, absolutely. 900 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,760 So tell us about what, what's coming for Nansen, what what 901 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,480 kind of so you already talked about the the hot contracts 902 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,600 update that that is what, what else do you have in store? 903 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,400 Yeah. So the hot contracts update is a 904 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,840 kind of a smaller example of how the labels are just going to get 905 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,680 a lot better because we are investing a lot in AI driven 906 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,680 attribution and that's going to happen I think faster than we 907 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,720 initially anticipated. Actually the second thing that I 908 00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:27,560 also mentioned is portfolio is going to get integrated into 909 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,280 nonsense two and this is actually kind of a big deal 910 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,440 because it allows us to personalize the product even 911 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,800 more. And I think you know the 912 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,920 ambition there is to be the preferred portfolio tracker of 913 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,920 any on chin investor. And so we are very much on chain 914 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,080 oriented, right. So we believe that if you have 915 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,680 the best coverage of chains and assets and protocols and we can 916 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,000 give you signal on white what you might be interested in 917 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,000 investing in, that's a really potent combination. 918 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,600 And so bringing portfolio antonyms to I think is going to 919 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,840 be a game changer frankly and it's going to happen in the next 920 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,000 few months. The third thing is we are 921 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,440 integrating lots of new chains. The one chain that we have been 922 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,320 asked about the most is Solana. And so we're going to launch 923 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:24,480 that hopefully within two months and I think that's going to be 924 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,720 pretty big and we have some some exciting ideas to try out with 925 00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:32,840 Solana because it's kind of a its own little ecosystem and 926 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,240 pocket. So we're going to try out some 927 00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:36,680 more experimental ideas with Solana. 928 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,200 And in addition to that I think you know, we're going to 929 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,360 strengthen some of the things that were already known for like 930 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,400 smart money tracking is getting better. 931 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,320 We have a now we have a new squad internally that's just 932 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,280 focused on taking that to the next level. 933 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,800 So things like really good PNL, tracking of traders, finding 934 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,560 wallets that you might want to monitor because they're really 935 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,760 good at trading. That's something that we're 936 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,240 levelling up and improving, making the overall product 937 00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:08,160 easier to use because it can be a bit overwhelming for people, 938 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,280 but it's I think constantly getting simpler to use in a way. 939 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,240 Like we're trying to strip away stuff like eliminating stuff 940 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:18,680 that's not absolutely necessary in the user experience. 941 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,520 So those are some of the things. But I, I think like, you know, 942 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,760 overall, we've put nonsan one behind us. 943 00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,480 In fact, we're switching off Nonsan one literally tomorrow. 944 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,160 So we've kind of firmly made the transition to Nelson two and 945 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,800 that means we can sort of put that we can travel lightly, we 946 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,640 can put behind us another tech debt that we had from the first 947 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,160 version of the product and then we can really just focus on the 948 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,720 the innovations for the new version of the product. 949 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,520 So yeah, this actually, literally in the next three 950 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,240 months, there's a lot to look forward to if you're a nonsense. 951 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,040 Wonderful. So where can we send listeners 952 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,520 to kind of check out nonsense? Yeah, you can go to Nonsense dot 953 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,040 AI, That's the best place to start. 954 00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:05,720 And you can also follow Nonsense under Score AI on Twitter. 955 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,520 Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on, 956 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,680 Alex. It's been a pleasure. 957 00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:14,440 Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining us on this 958 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,840 week's episode. We release new episodes every 959 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:18,840 week. You can find and subscribe to 960 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,600 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 961 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,040 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 962 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,800 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 963 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,800 the Epicenter podcast. Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for 964 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,480 a full list of places where you can watch and listen. 965 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,440 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 966 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,800 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 967 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,040 If you want to interact with us guest or other podcast 968 00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:43,720 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter. 969 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,600 And please leave us a review on iTunes. 970 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,080 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 971 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,440 them. So thanks so much and we look 972 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:51,560 forward to being back next week.