1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,520 Our intuition was OK, so some sort of arallelization should 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,960 happen with the like those kind of sharding and Rovo state was 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,720 intuitively the desire that we should approach and everybody 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,240 said no, it's not doable. If you take the blockchain 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,680 dilemma from italic that you cannot achieve scalability, 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,920 security and their centralization without 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,680 compromising any of those without charting. 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,760 I always envisioned that Etherium would eventually define 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,880 a standard where all those headers or data that is being 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,720 pushed into the Bobs into the Etherium beacon chain will kind 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,440 of get synchronized across the L twos. 12 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,920 You kind of build some sort of a trustless finality model across 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,320 synchronize across all the L twos. 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,280 If you would apply the same L run or Multiverse 6 model to the 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Ato case. The only problem is. 16 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,720 This episode is proudly brought to you by Nosis, a visionary 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,160 collective committed to fostering and expanding 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,360 applications for a decentralized future. 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,760 Nosis is at the forefront of innovation with Nosis Pay 20 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,280 Circles and Metri revolutionizing open banking and 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,920 creating a superior form of money. 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,360 With Hashi and Nosis VPN, they're building a more 23 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,920 resilient and privacy focused open Internet. 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,240 Are you seeking a robust L1 to launch your project? 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,520 Well, look no further than Nosis Chain. 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,600 Enjoy the same development environment as Ethereum, but 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,400 with significantly lower transaction fees and with a 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,480 robust network of over 200,000 validators, Nosis Chain stands 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,000 as a credibly neutral and resilient foundation for your 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,920 application. Governance at Nosis is driven by 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Nosis Dow, where everyone has a voice in shaping the project's 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,680 future. Join the Nosis community today 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,280 by participating in the Nosis Dow Governance form. 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,680 You can deploy your project on the EVM compatible and highly 35 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,600 decentralized Nosis Chain or help secure the network by 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,840 running a validator with just a single GNO and low cost 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,840 hardware. Embark on your journey towards 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,520 decentralization today at nosis dot IO. 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,840 Chorus One is one of the biggest node operators globally and help 40 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,000 you stake your tokens on 45 plus networks like Ethereum, Cosmos, 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,880 Celestia and DYDX. 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Your assets always remain in 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,200 your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind. 53 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,360 Start staking today at Chorus .1. 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,760 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,440 technologies, projects and people driving decentralisation 56 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,760 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Felix Lutch and today I'm 57 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,680 speaking with Lucian Minku who is the Co founder and CIO at 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,400 Multiverse X. Multiverse X, previously known 59 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,040 as Lrond, is a fully chartered blockchain network and 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,880 ecosystem. Hi Lucian, welcome to Epicentre. 61 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,000 Hey, hey, Felix. Pleasure to be here. 62 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Awesome. Yeah, so glad to have you. 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,640 I think. Yeah, you've been in the space 64 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,600 for a long time with Alderon previously now, no multiple sex. 65 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,840 I think there's like a lot of stories you can tell about proof 66 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,000 of stake, about what you've been building. 67 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,200 And, and so, yeah, we wanted to basically just start there. 68 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,280 Like how did you get into crypto and and started building like 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,600 Alderon and now I guess multiple sex? 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Definitely. So first thing first, thanks a 71 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,560 lot for the invite. Thanks for hosting me, Felix, by 72 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,840 the way, big, big Congrats and respect for the entire Epicenter 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,480 team. I think Epicenter is perhaps the 74 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,959 the podcast where I learned most of the crypto stuff in my entire 75 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,880 life, like in the entire career. So I've been following ever 76 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,480 since I met Sunny in 2017. Just to give a brief context how 77 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,520 how I discovered first Epicenter, then then we'll we'll 78 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,560 move to to my background. But actually I met Sunny in TSUG 79 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,280 into one of the very early crypto conferences. 80 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:41,960 He was presenting Cosmos ecosystem and it was prior to 81 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,120 mainet. I think it took one 1 1/2 years 82 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,120 after, if I remember, after Sunny mentioned just it's it 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,880 will follow very shortly. Cosmos large will be very 84 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,480 shortly and immediately. Actually I fall in love with 85 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,480 with a lot of the stuff that you guys were presenting and more 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,200 than happy as I said, big Congrats. 87 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,120 And maybe the second point is I have not just to upfront 88 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,800 disclosure, I have not did any podcast in the last seven years 89 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,880 since I built or started Alrund. And then the, the main reason 90 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,160 actually why I'm here is after listening to your one of the 91 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,320 latest podcasts from, from Epicentre with Paulo Arduino, 92 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,520 where he mentioned we, we all as technical founders thought, OK, 93 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,240 we're going to build such good products that we, the products 94 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,400 will speak for themselves. And then that was my, my life 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,760 thesis that if everything went for seven years, six years, and 96 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,840 only with that one would not, not going out. 97 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,640 Then basically once I'd heard his story and how important it 98 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,280 is to go, go out, yeah, I decided I'll reach out. 99 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,840 And here I am. So just aswarting the big, big 100 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:58,720 respect for the entire Epicentre team. 101 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:00,200 Awesome. Yeah. 102 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,320 Thanks so much. That's that's such a, yeah, 103 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,000 great anecdote, I think. Yeah. 104 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,040 And we're super glad to have you and honoured to be chosen as the 105 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,200 first. I think your project obviously 106 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:16,080 is technically like one of the very advanced sort of blockchain 107 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,880 infrastructure. So it is only fitting that you, 108 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,960 you come on Epicenter to dive into it. 109 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,280 But yeah, I guess, yeah, let's, let's start there. 110 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:28,520 How how did it start or when did you sort of come up with the 111 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:33,960 idea of like L Ron back then and now multiverse and and how has 112 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,240 it changed if, if at all or I was like. 113 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:40,560 Yeah, definitely. So it's some context. 114 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,720 I've, I think Benjamin, my brother was, was the, the hook 115 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,680 for me into the Web 3 ecosystem. I've been building and have 116 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,600 technical background, have built several startups in Germany, has 117 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,520 believed the, I think the last 1012 years in Germany. 118 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,880 They're building all kind of infrastructure projects for the 119 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,800 German states, for startups, for large, large scale enterprises 120 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,760 and so forth. And was very passionate about 121 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,880 very simple logic of every protocol standard like from 122 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,680 TCPUDP and all that kind of stuff going to BitTorrent and 123 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,120 that kind of direction. So I think for me, it was very, 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,640 very important to try to connect to something that I could relate 125 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,240 and understood very simple, but I could draw it like the 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,320 protocol design on the whiteboard, right? 127 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,720 So once you take like that and you just remove, for example, 128 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,440 from BitTorrent, the cedar part, you immediately see that's the 129 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,680 Bitcoin pretty much topology of the network. 130 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,840 So basically it clicked, it clicked, it clicked. 131 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:51,240 And then my brother tried to, he was already involved in, I think 132 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,640 one of the core core team members at Nam and I think on 133 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,240 the Bitcoin talk forum and so forth, very, very, very all, all 134 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,000 days. And then every time he had all, 135 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,320 all this kind of task or, or challenges to, to, to solve. 136 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,280 He flew to, to Germany over the weekend, hooked me again. 137 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,920 We stood like 111 weekend 1st and then more weekends and so 138 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,560 forth until actually I, we, we got the, the task needed for 139 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,040 other protocols. And then after a while, he he 140 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 convinced me to to move full, full time into a three. 141 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:30,000 We also had a fund back then where we actually ended up 142 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,039 investing in Cosmos as well, I think in a private in polka dot 143 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,679 silica, pretty much everything. What was infrastructure back 144 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:39,960 then? We were one of the first 145 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,159 Packers. And yeah, while researching 146 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:48,240 pretty much all those new protocols and working with them, 147 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,320 bringing, trying to contribute to, to their ecosystem, actually 148 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,760 we learned a lot of the stuff. And that was maybe the, the also 149 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,120 one of the triggers where back back in the days, we, we, we, 150 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,080 we, we look at the, the performance or capabilities of 151 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,400 the, the throughput of all those protocols that were coming out 152 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:12,280 from 2016, 2017 and so forth. And we, we, we just had the 153 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,120 thought experiment. OK, Well, if we're going to put 154 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,720 like one 8 billion people into any this kind of architectures, 155 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,960 would would it stand? Would it still stay alive? 156 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,280 Would it still, we still reach consensus or, or have any kind 157 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:31,040 of meaningful performance such that it will it could gain world 158 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,480 adoption. And basically we, we kind of 159 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,960 reached the conclusion that the state problem or the, the, the, 160 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,080 the state size of any of those block chains wall will become 161 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,400 pretty much the, the, the main killer of and the killer as we 162 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,600 use in web tree. The good part of killer actually 163 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,360 literally will will kill any kind of performance that could 164 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,120 those architecture reach. And maybe The funny thing is 165 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,880 that we, we, our intuition was OK, some sort of parallelization 166 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,720 should happen with the like those kind of sharding and 167 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,960 provostate was intuitively the next the, the, the, the desire 168 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,560 that we should approach. And we went actually to several 169 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:17,360 of those ecosystem projects that we're already working on on very 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,520 complex problems and pitch them that they should do sharply. 171 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,680 And everybody said, no, it's not doable. 172 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,240 So it's funny enough that everybody said, no, you cannot 173 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,280 do that. It's too hard, too complicated. 174 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,320 Why would you do that? And here we are, I think after 175 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,360 six years, seven years with everything live and Ethereum 176 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,720 still, I think arguing that some of the stuff are literally be 177 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,320 hardcore. I, I, I, I cannot not, not agree 178 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,240 with that. There were many, many sleepless 179 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:53,000 lights and many attempts to to build this kind of stuff. 180 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,600 But yeah, I think this is very briefly how how also the 181 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,640 background and also how we got to to at least have the the 182 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,880 thoughts in the direction of L1 architecture, initial 183 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,680 architecture. Yeah, that, that's super 184 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:08,200 interesting, I think. Yeah, I guess there was a phase 185 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:14,320 where the Ethereum scaling road map was also sharding based and 186 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,320 then it sort of shifted back to like this roll up architecture 187 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,280 now and we we're basically still there, right. 188 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,440 And I think in the wider space like some people are depends on 189 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,880 which pocket you are in. You maybe even forgot about 190 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,280 charting that it like existed. But then on the other hand, we 191 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,760 have like projects like like you and maybe I guess the other 192 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,920 mention of one is near that has implemented charting actually. 193 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,160 So yeah, super curious to hear from you more about like how, 194 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,920 how that actually works and how you how you set it up to and 195 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,480 yeah, basically the problems that it solves. 196 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,160 So maybe we can we can dive a little bit deeper in there like 197 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,440 how you actually do the charting. 198 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,680 So maybe we start just from like sort of the the validator set 199 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,120 that you have and how how they are sort of set up. 200 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,840 More than happy, more than happy. 201 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:10,480 So maybe just some some context. We funny enough that you, you 202 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,840 you mentioned you, you mentioned the sharding part or the, the 203 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,600 sharding from from Etherium world map. 204 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,520 We actually worked with Prismatic Labs in 2017 on the 205 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,960 Etherium sharding model. So it we I, I just had a, a 206 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,560 discussion on the, I think last conferences with, with 207 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,800 explaining again how the architecture of multiverse 208 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,240 sector L Ron look like in the production. 209 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,120 It was very, very, very, very similar to what Ethereum two 2.0 210 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,440 look like, especially at least the the the the staking part 211 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,560 apart with Q with all those modules actually L Ron and 212 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,240 multiverse six had had both of them actually brought to the 213 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,000 production. But also another final part. 214 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,000 I would say that Sunny was I guess one of the first guys that 215 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,920 did the peer review of the paper in 2017. 216 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,000 And then also Vasily from Lido has been grilling me about the 217 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,920 randomness source of the chain in 2016. 218 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,240 Seventeen, I think, or 18, something like that around that 219 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,560 a lot and eventually contributed to the architecture as well. 220 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,920 So very, very, very nice actually to see that all all 221 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,880 those builders have contributed and always contributed. 222 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,400 If there's something that builders have in common, they 223 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,800 all contribute to the best things. 224 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,440 Now going back to the architecture model of Multiverse 225 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,040 X and going a bit into the technical stuff that I would say 226 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,440 the, the, the first step would be to walk, walk the thought 227 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,040 process that I, I look at as at any blockchain architecture 228 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,160 pretty much. So if we take for example, 229 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,480 Ethereum as a supercomputer, a supercomputer is still a 230 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,800 computer in the end and it has three major components. 231 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,480 So you have kind of CPU, RAM disk where CPU is consensus. 232 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,640 You throw a lot of requested works with a very fast with a 233 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,840 very fast memory, which is the RAM where you basically iterate 234 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,840 or permutate those values once you reach consensus and you 235 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,440 write to the disk you got there, right. 236 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,960 So this is like, I would say boxing one O 1, explaining 30 237 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,960 seconds. And also as a super computer, 238 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,800 put the same distribute just distributed over the Internet. 239 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,280 And then that's kind of it. But the next point would be if 240 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,480 we look at general computer architecture, how we scaled up 241 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,480 the system, we did not end up with the CPU with a single 242 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,920 thread that has 100 gigahertz, but rather we have a bunch of 243 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,040 threads that paralyze the execution. 244 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,480 They all also all of those threads work a very fast memory 245 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,360 which is the RAM where you have even though you have physically 246 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,680 the RAM as one, one piece. Actually each of the threads are 247 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,960 having the pre allocated subset of memory right? 248 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,840 Which is like each of the threads in order to work, in 249 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,160 order to be able to process it, it actually reserves a set of 250 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,520 memory of the RAM. And then of course once they 251 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,760 reached the OR solve the data they requested right to the 252 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,360 disk. How we got here now this is like 253 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,840 the general compute. This is also if we look at error 254 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,320 on Multiverse X how it looks like or how it works actually. 255 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,360 You have the beacon chain similar to Etherium 2.0 and then 256 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,480 you have a bunch of execution charts. 257 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,640 If you remember the the initial Etherium sharding architecture, 258 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:20,800 it it has it, it basically push out the state, the state to the 259 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,320 execution charts where the state transition will be maintained on 260 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,200 the execution charts. So basically you have this kind 261 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,120 of beacon chain, which is not surprising, all those blocks 262 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:36,040 being produced on the the sub shards or the execution shards 263 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:43,000 level, while basically that that allows and goes as basically to 264 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,520 to the entire sharding model. Maybe before going even more 265 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,680 into specific and losing pretty much maybe a bunch of the guys 266 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,440 what is being motorized, what headers and so forth. 267 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,880 I would just do a step back maybe defining a bit the the 268 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,840 problem of the sharding, right. I would say one of the points 269 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,120 here that said like there are three kinds of sharding. 270 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,600 So there there's I would say transaction sharding where we 271 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,080 have had had architecture similar to silica. 272 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,880 Silica, for example, was one of the first one that that proposed 273 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,000 that kind of model which allowed any kind of state transitional 274 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,880 or kind of move balance parallelization in within the 275 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,200 same chain in within the same binary, right. 276 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,160 So that's cool. However, as soon there the the 277 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,600 chain has heat 11 transaction or one smart contract transaction, 278 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,560 for example, which would have iterate multiple accounts, there 279 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,280 would have been a memory lock on the entire state and that would 280 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,480 would not allow any kind of parallelization at this point. 281 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,320 So the next point would be there's like the network 282 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,160 charting like if we look and for example, this the way the 283 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,520 architecture is being built on our case, you we have the we 284 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:01,160 have a total of 300 to 3200 validator seats and all those 285 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,319 seats are being being allocated into four chunks or 4 sub 286 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,359 shards, each of them maintaining 800. 287 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,240 In this case, like beacon chain has 800 validators Shard 0 has 288 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,480 what 800 Shard 11 do each each 800. 289 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,720 Basically at the network topology level, there's on top 290 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,040 of of leap peer-to-peer and authentication layer where it 291 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,680 tells like once you go and again, this might be a bit 292 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,560 technical for for people. Basically once you go into and 293 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,520 and you connect to the lip peer-to-peer network, you, you 294 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,040 need to have some, some sort of an ID like a public private key 295 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,480 infrastructure. Now on top of that, what you can 296 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,560 do actually you can sign the messages with the private key of 297 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,760 the validator which will tell the other counter party which is 298 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:55,120 receiving the message if your what kind of peer are you? 299 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,320 So are you coming from the same Shard? 300 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:58,920 Are you coming from a different Shard? 301 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:05,240 And basically there's a specific optimizer set which will tell 302 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,800 each of the validators, hey, I have a maximum, for example, 303 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,520 like, but again, just defining the problem like network traffic 304 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,960 is perhaps the most expensive resource we have in the Internet 305 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,440 right now. And that's one, one of the the 306 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,920 problems also that we need to optimize. 307 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,720 So assuming that you can have in into a parallelization system 308 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,040 where where each of the validators maintains only a 309 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,960 subset of the network, you also need to pass a lot of those 310 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,320 messages and and kind of kind of find the optimum route to 311 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:39,800 connect those peers to each other. 312 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,280 Now, because of this kind of of first you, you, you have, as I 313 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,000 said, the 1st, the the, the authentication method or the 314 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,080 signing method with the, the validator key on top of each of 315 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,480 the messages. Then on the other side, assuming 316 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,160 that I'm synchronised and I'm synchronised with the with the 317 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,880 the network, I can tell the public key that has signed this 318 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,120 message where it comes from on based on Michael no knowledge of 319 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,360 the network configuration. I can tell OK, this public key 320 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:13,720 should be actually validating or should be a validating sharp two 321 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,640 or in the meta chain. And I can assign this public key 322 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,480 or this network connection to a routing protocol where I keep a 323 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,600 certain amount of connections optimal or for an optimal 324 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,600 broadcasting method or propagation protocol in order to 325 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,600 to to reach and always have highly, highly available, high, 326 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,520 high connectivity and low, low latency between validators 327 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,800 intrashard and still maintain some sort of a cross chain 328 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,240 connectivity for with with all other shards such that they will 329 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,640 never become a lonely, lonely island. 330 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,080 So there's, I hope, Let me like, let's break here and maybe I'll 331 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,400 let you ask some questions. I know there's a lot of stuff 332 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,480 like there, there's very specific layers, but more than 333 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,600 that, did they explain everything? 334 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,160 No, sounds great, dad. That's super, super interesting. 335 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,040 So basically, first of all, maybe one question, the meta 336 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,800 chain, which is like kind of the beacon chain, I guess in your 337 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,320 system, it's not that every validator actually validates 338 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,920 that as well, so but rather it's also like just a normal Shard in 339 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:23,640 some sense, no. No. 340 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,400 So, so basically there's first there, there's shared security 341 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,080 model. So basically there the entire 342 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:35,800 pool of 3200 validator seats are randomly allocated around among 343 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,920 all the shards. So there's no no special 344 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,280 configuration, no special preferences for the beacon 345 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,520 chain. You just basically get every 346 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,640 epoch shuffled and being allocated to do that chart. 347 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,280 The only difference is like in the current configuration, is 348 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,560 that the consensus size or the consensus? 349 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,720 Yeah, the consensus participation for every round is 350 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,960 400 or 400. Like there I could just maybe 351 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,800 just define a couple more thoughts. 352 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:11,160 That's right. So basically there's, if we go 353 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,400 on the, the chronology part first, right? 354 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,040 So let's define what's, what's the metric of accounting or, or, 355 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,040 or measuring it said blockchain. So we have epochs which are 356 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,760 equal to 24 hours. And then there's rounds. 357 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,320 Current round time is equal to 6 seconds, which will get improved 358 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,520 with the next protocol updates to I think 3, two seconds, one 359 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,760 second and hopefully sub second from finality before, before the 360 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,280 end of the year, maybe now that's chronology. 361 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Then there's validators which have two different states or had 362 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,840 two different states. So there's active and waiting. 363 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:53,440 The reason for that is basically each epoch 400 validators are 364 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,880 being elected or elected to to validate each of the the shards 365 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,760 including beacon chain where eight, the other. 366 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,040 So 400 are being elected and the other 400 are in the waiting 367 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,640 state. Why? 368 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,760 Because there is every epoch, every epoch there the the the 369 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,440 validators are, a third of the validators are being random 370 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,920 sampled to reshuffle across validate across the Shard such 371 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,240 that they will never be able to collude to take over a Shard. 372 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:31,000 So by doing that, basically we also have a built in protocol 373 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,640 time for those validators to synchronize the new state. 374 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,200 So assuming, for example, that I'm, I'm being relocated to a 375 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,920 new Shard, then I have a built in, in the protocol, a 376 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,360 guaranteed time frame for my node. 377 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,400 Even if I will just like in practice, the node will destroy 378 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120 and delete the the the entire database. 379 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,240 We'll just go and and synchronise the, the, the 380 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,840 snapshot, the, the three snapshot from the, the current 381 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,440 epoch and then build on top of that the current state of the 382 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,680 chain, assuming that at the net net next epoch change, I, I'm 383 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,440 eligible to become validated, right. 384 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:13,120 So maybe that's very raw a bit what, how, how the the consensus 385 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,400 consensus or chronology works and then also a bit tied to, to 386 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,760 the to the to the shopping part. Right, Yeah, that's super 387 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,680 interesting. And this sinking like how long 388 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 does it actually take right now? Or because I guess you need to 389 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,200 be able to do it in 24 hours, but it. 390 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,760 So. So there are two parts. 391 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,000 There's basically for first, there's three snapshots. 392 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,480 So we're we're like 3 pruning. We implemented the three pruning 393 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,320 which allows us actually at each of the epoch change to clean up 394 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,240 the the old, old or on the old state you would like. 395 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,400 The three will always maintain only the the the latest and 396 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,160 greatest, so to say version of the leaves or or the three three 397 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,440 model, which will be actually transferred in the new snapshot 398 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,240 where basically that gets to also to to the next problem to 399 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,720 the the state charting. Because maybe if I like right, 400 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,600 right now it it takes just to answer question, it takes I 401 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,280 think around maybe hour, two hours and that could be 402 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,640 optimized and we have optimized a lot and so forth. 403 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,520 However, this this is like the general, the general problem 404 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,640 what what we're doing. And now, so we, we kind of touch 405 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,120 on the network charting, we kind of touch about the design and 406 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,040 rationale why you need like putting network charting on top 407 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,800 of this kind of architecture. You kind of see all this kind of 408 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,160 engineering breakthroughs on top of all those primitives to, to 409 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,080 highly optimize the throughput of the network and the latency. 410 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,040 However, the main problem, I think what we were, we were 411 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,320 solving is the state problem. And like if you take the, the, 412 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,160 the state or if you take like put put the world population of 413 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,480 8 billion people into adjust the database and try to iterate and 414 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,520 do hundreds of thousands of transactions or thousands of 415 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,760 transactions per second while finding those accounts. 416 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,280 Like you need to iterate on 8 billion entries inside that 417 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,360 database, find those entries and change the values and then redo 418 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,280 the search for the next one and so forth. 419 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,200 So that could not scale. And also in the in the same 420 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,840 time, try to replicate this database as many times across 421 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,160 the call. Like if like if you take the 422 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,760 blockchain dilemma from italic, I think that's the most famous 423 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,480 one that everybody knows you, you, you cannot like the problem 424 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,880 says that you cannot achieve scalability, security and their 425 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,440 centralization without compromising any of those 426 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:44,200 without charting. Like charting is the what was 427 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,040 the design for that? And actually what it does. 428 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,040 If, for example, if we take deuterium address range as an 429 00:25:53,040 --> 00:26:00,360 example, and you would take zero X 000001 as a beginning and then 430 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:05,080 you have zero 10 at the end as an end, and you would split into 431 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,040 a sharded model, each of the shards would persist on a subset 432 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,120 of those accounts, right? So in practice the storage like 433 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,880 the everything related to those accounts will be pre allocated 434 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,680 or allocated to a specific Shard and that specific Shard will 435 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,440 maintain the storage of it. While now if we take and do the 436 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,880 step back at the consensus or the entire architecture model, 437 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,400 basically you can if for example a transaction would be 438 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,680 intrashard like assuming that the first zero to five are in 439 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,800 the same Shard and the the next 5 to 10 are in the next Shard. 440 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,880 Basically each of the shards could process in parallel. 441 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,320 They will run consensus every block, every block, every block. 442 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,600 And then basically when the transaction is intrashard in, 443 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,960 in, in inside the same storage, it will happen atomically. 444 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,240 And then when not, then it will just reach out over the beacon 445 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,600 chain through the notarization method. 446 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,080 And that's, I think the next point where we're going to dive 447 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,360 into. But I'm I'm plugging here again, 448 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,880 letting you maybe to ask some questions if it's clear enough 449 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,240 if it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 450 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,120 So you still always go through the main to the beacon chain, 451 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,040 ask for like interrupt Shard interoperability. 452 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,120 And I guess does it work? I remember from like me or 453 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:33,680 actually that, you know, if like some transaction is actually on 454 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,840 the same chart, they still kind of weighed this one epoch and 455 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,520 delay it. So there's no benefit of being 456 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,800 on the same chart somehow. Is that like something you guys 457 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,520 do? So so there there are two 22 458 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,120 problems here. What so first is the 459 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,880 composability problem. I guess that's the most the most 460 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,520 interesting, the the most, I think the only reason why 461 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,440 Ethereum have not implemented charting yet, right? 462 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,080 So what what like assuming that you run consensus on each of the 463 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,600 shards and for example, there are two shards and the beacon 464 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,080 chain every time you're a transaction needs to like it is 465 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,720 assuming that I'm I, I have the the account with the ID like 466 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,200 with the ending one. And then I'm calling a a smart 467 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,040 contract which has the IT is in the same chart and basically 468 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,200 everything that happens atomically in the same 469 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,600 transaction, I can just compose and so forth. 470 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,720 However, if for example the account that I'm trying to go to 471 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:35,280 is outside my postal code, just to code the near podcast as 472 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,480 well. Basically, I need to go through 473 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,000 the router, right? And the router will kind of 474 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,080 ensure me the guarantee of the message delivery. 475 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,320 However, it will not happen at the same block. 476 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,120 But here there are two problems I would say. 477 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,680 First, there's the throughput problem. 478 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,320 Like you could still try to concentrate everything into a 479 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,480 single blotching. However, there are some sort of 480 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,240 improvements that could be done in order or like engineering 481 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,200 engineering steps that could reach to atomic composability 482 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,840 across multiple shards. But the the the main, the main, 483 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,720 the the most interesting part. I would say that's the easy part 484 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,840 almost. I would say once you have a 485 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,160 sharded blockchain, it's easy. It's easy to go easier to go 486 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,880 back and compromise again. I would almost compromise again 487 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,360 and then kind of reach consensus across all the shards, whereby 488 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,720 the the most crazy part is that nobody solved until now or 489 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,440 before L run the full state charted problem. 490 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,680 Like the the the cool part is for example. 491 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,080 Now let me let me break it down to to something that I think 492 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,800 it's also very, very, very known for everybody like the the 493 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,640 tribal agency problem. I think it was described in an 494 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,200 etherium forums back then where you want, for example, I'm I'm, 495 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:02,560 I'm a an end user and I go to a travel agency and I want to 496 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,080 regardless where the accounts are being distributed inside 497 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,640 this architecture. I want with the same ticket. 498 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,520 I like I want in my my offer. If I want, I buy this this 499 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:17,920 holiday ticket to get a train ticket, hotel, car rental and a 500 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,120 plane. And if, if, if I buy into the 501 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,440 smart contract, the results should contain all of them or 502 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,080 nothing. Now this is the cool part like 503 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,440 nobody says that everything in even in computer science 504 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,600 problems not not, not everything happens synchronously and not 505 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,040 like even even the, the the way we communicate right now is not 506 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,560 synchronously. It has a synchronous model which 507 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,560 guarantees the, the, the, the, the, the transport of the 508 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,520 messages. And then we built on top of this 509 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,800 transfer messages a bunch of algorithm or a bunch of software 510 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,400 which can handle this kind of the modular approach. 511 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,600 And now if we look like the the way we approach like what 512 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,520 multiverse or Elro that we're sharding promises is it 513 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,880 guarantees a way of forwarding messages from A to B. 514 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,480 But with some, some specific properties, like for example, if 515 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,400 we know that the message will will take about a while, you can 516 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,760 basically go and lock that memory. 517 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,720 You can define the interfaces, so to say on top of that to work 518 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,520 and and, and specifically say, Hey, I want for this ticket for 519 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,960 the smart contract that is going to purchase everything. 520 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:39,320 I want them to await and store this kind of information and 521 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,840 asynchronously. Like when I'm calling this 522 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,600 contract, the contract will send a receipt or will send ten other 523 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,200 transactions that might take even 2 seconds, five or two 524 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,920 blocks, three blocks, whatever. And whenever they will reach 525 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,240 their destination, I, I'm awaiting a message back and I 526 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,520 know the protocol guarantees a message back to me and it will 527 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,680 tell me what to do if it is successful or not, right? 528 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,840 So this is like the, the beauty of asynchronous execution that 529 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,400 you can build primitives or on top of those primitives and can 530 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,520 build on top of this messaging layer where you can asynchronous 531 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,320 call and have composability for and also not compromising on 532 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,160 the, the throughput of the network, right? 533 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,120 So this is kind of kind of kind of it. 534 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,120 And maybe the, the, the even crazier part is knowing, for 535 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,560 example, the, the, the part with the network, network charting 536 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,760 that I will be mentioning before, and also that the 537 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,840 network itself is kind of synchronized synchronize of over 538 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,520 all this kind of primitives, cryptographic primitives and, 539 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,120 and consensus state. Basically, you could, if I know 540 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,120 that, for example, in advance, like one of the looking maybe 541 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 few, few seconds into the future, how, how, how could the 542 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,800 such a protocol still achieve what every everybody else has, 543 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,320 but what the other ones could never achieve Sharding just like 544 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,400 that. Basically, if I know which 545 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,160 transaction or what transaction I need to talk or execute 546 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,520 synchronously and I know that the destination of it, basically 547 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,160 I could easily target those validator sets or the protocol 548 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,960 could talk to the validator sets and make them achieve consensus 549 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,280 for all for all for atomicity for one specific upcoming round 550 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,640 where they will execute 11 specific transaction from A-Z 551 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,800 across all the, the, the the accounts inside the, the chain, 552 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,880 right? But in the same time, you can 553 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,920 still have, you can still persist this kind of 554 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,280 asynchronous model for everything else where you don't 555 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,120 need to guarantee everything in the same, in the same block. 556 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,960 Like the the same way the Internet doesn't guarantee us 557 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,640 that everything just comes and drops everything and just 558 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,280 process one, one single thread at the time. 559 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,760 I, I hope it makes sense. I I I I think it's. 560 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I think it makes sense. 561 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,159 So you're saying that you can like, so there is a way to 562 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:13,960 guarantee this somehow. And then basically in that 563 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:18,040 specific scenario, more or less the shards act like a single 564 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,320 Shard for this string of transactions. 565 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,239 Or whatever exactly. But also, while not uniting the 566 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:30,639 state so you can, I can still work in like the same way if the 567 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,920 model works in the nasynchronous model already. 568 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,880 Basically, we will just speed up the message passing from 1-1 to 569 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,199 another and we will still do consensus on that kind of 570 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,480 messaging. But instead of doing it 571 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,880 asynchronously, if there's enough economic incentives, for 572 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,480 example, for, for that kind of processing, it can be 573 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080 prioritized, scheduled and then reached and executed in into one 574 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,840 single transaction. That could be as well. 575 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,960 I, I mean, it's just an engineering, pure engineering 576 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,920 problem. It's not the something that 577 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,760 cannot be solved, like if we have solved all and build all 578 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,960 this kind of stuff, and I do believe I did. 579 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,240 That's just a couple of sleepless nights, I would say. 580 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,200 Just a few it took a few years. Yeah, OK, that's interesting. 581 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,360 So, but right now, do you, can you do this prioritisation or is 582 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,600 it like, I guess it leads a bit into, you know, what are like 583 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,520 the prioritised transactions in general in blockchain is like 584 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:30,040 sort of MEV related, like arbitrage or whatnot across like 585 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,960 is this something you can already do on, on which versus 586 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,600 X? It, I think it's clear a bit how 587 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,640 the, the logic of the, the sharding. 588 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,880 Then on top of that, what we're building, maybe it would be 589 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,040 there. Each of the sharks, by the way, 590 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,880 has its own VM, so it has its own execution environment and so 591 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,840 forth. And on top of that, basically we 592 00:35:52,840 --> 00:36:01,640 we built at the some primitives, which is called time lock and 593 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,480 promises like you can define at the interface of each of the 594 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,280 Spark contracts. What kind of what kind of 595 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,440 properties do you want? Like defining you want this TCP 596 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080 or UDP? Do you want, for example, do you 597 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,600 do you want that if like when I'm shooting to this smart 598 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,720 contract and this smart contracts cause other test part 599 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:26,960 contracts, do I need? Does the user wants whatever it 600 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,800 it gets or do what do you want to await all all the file, all 601 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,160 the results of all, all the smart contracts? 602 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:40,000 And if that bypass is basically I'm, I'm just confirming ceiling 603 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,720 that the, the, the, the result or I'm, I'm, I can go back to 604 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,120 those contracts and say, Hey, I don't want them, right. 605 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:51,200 So you can define all those kind of specific properties on, on 606 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,840 each of the interfaces how you want to do that. 607 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,600 What we don't have is the synchronous consensus among all 608 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,720 the charts. The way where I can do that we 609 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,520 don't have right now because it was not the problem the, the, 610 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,800 the, the IT would be. It is kind of a challenge for us 611 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,120 because we only have block chains that are single threaded. 612 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:17,600 Let me put it this way, we don't even have the mindset to think 613 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,360 about applications that are multi threaded like you do. 614 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,520 What? What if? 615 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,160 What if I can design such such, such such applications that can, 616 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000 instead of having just one single thread, one single smart 617 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,600 contracts, for example, for wrapping oil and wrapping tokens 618 00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:38,040 or whatever else you're thinking where you can actually have this 619 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,600 kind of primitives available in all sub charts. 620 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,840 And then I think that's kind of the challenge of also interior 621 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,480 withdraw apps that you only have some, some primitives available 622 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,400 at one specific layer and then you need to broadcast them, 623 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,640 reproduce them to all other layers. 624 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,080 I also have some, some interesting notes on that. 625 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:03,840 And actually, but yeah, I I hope it answers your question to to 626 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,560 that end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 627 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,360 That, that makes sense. And I guess, yeah, you mentioned 628 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,440 also like every Shard has their own VM. 629 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,000 Is it all like the same? VM basically so so we we have 630 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,400 three kinds of so first on top of the blockchain, we on top of 631 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,960 the blockchain accounts, we kind of built a routing system where 632 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,800 you can have multiple VMS. The cool part is you ended the 633 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,720 data field. For example, when you're calling 634 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,360 a smart contract, a smart contract, you can define there's 635 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,400 a kind of a switch where you can say, hey, I want this 636 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,440 transaction to be originated or the account that I'm talking to, 637 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,600 I want them to to call the bytecode with a specific VM. 638 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,600 So I can tell through this kind of switch what what kind of VMI 639 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,360 want to. I don't it's a storage at the 640 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,080 end of the day. If if we decouple the, the 641 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,200 execution from the storage, then basically I can just tell hey, 642 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,520 go to that specific storage take take that bytecode and map it 643 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,400 into a specific VM. In our case, we have a WASM VM 644 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,880 we built on top of a Wasmar. It's called a space VM. 645 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,840 And then there's all the framework on top of that, which 646 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,120 abstracts the entire complexity of sharding, which is called 647 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,840 spacecraft SDK, right? So the, the, the core part is 648 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,280 basically what, what, what that's one, one of the 649 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,040 frameworks like this is the most used for, for anything Spark 650 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,560 contract related. And then also on top of that, we 651 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,680 also have a, a go, go or like a system VM where we used, for 652 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,560 example, for staking primitives like system specific 653 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,240 applications or logic where you need very, very efficient 654 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:55,760 computation and very fast. Yeah, you, you that's kind of 655 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,440 what, what, what, why we, the reason why we do that. 656 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,120 The, the funny part is actually because of the, the new SDK, 657 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,320 like the sovereign change, I think we're again attached on 658 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,160 that as well is we're incentivizing people. 659 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,680 And because of the entire modularity that we we build on 660 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,920 top, you can we're actually putting grants for people that 661 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,760 would take and build port. Different VMS for to to the 662 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,520 ecosystem. So for example, there's one of 663 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,320 the projects that I'm very excited about that does Etherium 664 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,880 EVM compatibility. So imagine that you basically in 665 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,440 the future, the main chain could with in, in one transaction with 666 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120 you're calling 11 specific smart contract. 667 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,200 And then that specific contract, you could take the output and 668 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,640 inject it into the next VM. That is, for example, you take a 669 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,280 WASM bytecode, you're calling a WASMI code and then you call a 670 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,400 Solidity code and then you take with that result you have 671 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,680 composed, you reach composability across multiple 672 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,040 VM, move VM, Solana VM and so forth, right. 673 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:58,160 So that's kind of the ankle, the direction for the VM execution 674 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,320 side. And then on the the sharding 675 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,680 part, there's a a lot of consensus optimization. 676 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,240 There's a lot of like even block time is I think from my point of 677 00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:11,440 view a bit too slow. But it but what, six years ago 678 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,560 it was reasonable, right slow. Yeah, always something to do. 679 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,800 OK, super interesting, I guess. Yeah, especially like heading 680 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:26,080 into the Sovereign Chains realm, I guess we have seen more and 681 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,360 more it's like application specific paradigm, I guess play 682 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,040 hour dry, like I think that's like where it started in Cosmos 683 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,040 and sort of like everyone build their own chain. 684 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,920 Everything is a chain, your fridge is a chain. 685 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,600 And I guess Cosmos has this approach. 686 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,360 We have the sovereign chains or like the app chains and then IBC 687 00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:47,840 in your case, that's like sort of the the sharding, but now 688 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,800 you're also bringing in, as I understand, like sort of a model 689 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,440 to have your own chain within the system. 690 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,680 Like how how does it work? Is it also like is it an 691 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,840 additional Shard? Is it just something that lives 692 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,440 on a Shard or yeah how explain a bit more what certain chains are 693 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,320 more? More of them have. 694 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,800 So maybe first I, I would just defy the the problem. 695 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,360 Like we've been very good on running multiple binaries. 696 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,600 So like multiple chains in parallel architecture, 697 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,160 orchestrating them into an, an invisible layer would say with 698 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,040 through the bit, orchestrate them through the beacon chain 699 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,760 such that you don't care where good counts would would leave 700 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,640 actually in your in, in your entire architecture. 701 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,080 And then by doing that, actually we kind of learn and said, hi, 702 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,520 we kind of, we're kind of good on running this kind of 703 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,240 specialized chains or almost paralyzed chains. 704 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,560 Why don't we just repack, rebuild the, the, the code base 705 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:46,360 such that it will turn into an SDK, which actually could if 706 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,040 like if you have, if you look at an Internet architecture, you 707 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,720 don't have just public cloud where you are sharing the 708 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,440 resources with everybody else. You could, what if you could 709 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,880 just deploy your own private cloud, but still maintain all 710 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,360 your own sovereignty. Like the cool part is, is like 711 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,600 first you get all the primitives, everything that we 712 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,400 build with Elrond on Multiverse 64 the last couple of years 713 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,880 out-of-the-box, but also pretty modular when it comes to you can 714 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,480 define your own consensus size. You can run your own consensus. 715 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,640 You can, for example, decide at which point in time you want to 716 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,040 post the transaction to another chain. 717 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,800 Like you're not tied to Multiverse X You, you can 718 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,880 basically decide, hey, I want to run the consensus of 400 or 400, 719 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,720 for example, validators. I want to have POS, I want to 720 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,400 have a block time of or block time of one second. 721 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,000 And I want every time there's an interaction I can write in into 722 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,240 the Go binary. I can say every time there's an 723 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:45,120 interaction to with a specific address, you need to go and post 724 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,240 this transaction to Ethereum or whatever. 725 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,680 You can just compose this kind of new features on top of that. 726 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,800 So that's kind of the narrative. I do believe like, yeah, people, 727 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,040 I think Sunny again was saying you're kind of copying the 728 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,520 cosmos stuff. But I mean, that's the beauty of 729 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,160 it. I think from where it came from, 730 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,640 people say if you, if you're being copied, you're it, it 731 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,560 means that you were doing right, right. 732 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,360 So definitely, I think Cosmos and IBC and so forth was, was 733 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,160 the, the part where I, I learned most of the stuff prepared to, 734 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,440 to starting what I'm doing now. Now I think we define a bit 735 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,080 what, what are the capabilities of the SDK, the narrative. 736 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:33,480 It is with it that it should go and serve other ecosystem better 737 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,440 than what what the main chain was designed to. 738 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:39,120 And also with that, we're actually providing grants and 739 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,400 supporting all this kind of new teams that are building this 740 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,400 like Polka that has had this concept of pallets, for example, 741 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,080 where you can just build new, new modules that you can attach 742 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,560 and compose. Like I think even Cosin WASM is 743 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,200 a very, very good example that one team built something and 744 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,040 then it got implemented to pretty much and provided a smart 745 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,880 contract execution environment to all other platforms, right? 746 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,080 I think first it like besides the privacy or the the 747 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,440 sovereignty of your own application needs, you're kind 748 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,960 of you're also fueling a lot more innovation at the entire 749 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,600 ecosystem level to connect and also bridge kind of have a 750 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:28,760 bridge bridging method to Solada, to Cosmos, to Etherium 751 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,720 and so forth. But not only on the virtual like 752 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:36,280 on the messaging part, but also you where you can get and deploy 753 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,560 the applications from there that have been built there into this 754 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,760 kind of new, newer, newer setting, right. 755 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,640 So this is kind of approach. There are three three like I do 756 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,920 believe like one. One is the application specific 757 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,080 logic. Of course, that's the best 1DY 758 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,440 DX again is I think I love the podcast with DLDYDX by the way 759 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,440 here. And that's I think the best 760 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,840 explanation what an specific logic would look like. 761 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,600 Then there's the consumer grade from my point of view, where you 762 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,480 have this kind of Gelato out layer and all this kind of other 763 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,720 application where you have consumer grade tons of boxes 764 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,520 that will be deployed. And then there's enterprises and 765 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,240 that that would be, I think another podcast to touch on what 766 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:21,920 enterprises this case is with a lot. 767 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,840 But now going again to something more technical. 768 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,440 Imagine, imagine that right now there's Ethereum as a beacon 769 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,200 chain as a meta chain compared to Multiverse X. 770 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,880 And then you have a bunch of shards, which are L2's roll ups 771 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,280 with sequencers that are posting this kind of transactions to the 772 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,960 main chain. The cool part is like the most 773 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,320 easier way to understand would be like I always think, like I 774 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,000 always envision that Etherium would eventually define a 775 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:56,960 standard where all those headers or blocks that are or data that 776 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,120 is being pushed into the box into the Etherium beacon chain 777 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,880 will kind of get synchronized across the L twos. 778 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,640 So I think like in in in in our case, assuming that for example 779 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,360 you you have 4444 shards, one is pick a chain and three execution 780 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,440 Shard and they all produce block block block one after another. 781 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,040 Now if the the the shards, for example, the Shard header blocks 782 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,160 would be pushed to meta chain and the meta chain will not 783 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,480 authorize those headers and the next block actually will be 784 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,640 again fetched by the execution shards from what it will, it 785 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,800 will tell them each of them what's the height or or the 786 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,680 finality on each of the sources of the messages. 787 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:46,360 Now the cool part is you kind of build some sort of a trustless 788 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,080 invisible finality model across synchronize across all the L 789 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,480 twos. If you would apply the same L 790 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:59,280 run or multiverse 6 model to Etherium case to the ETA case. 791 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,480 The only problem is I I like, I hope that that will will be the 792 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,360 end game, or at least if they drop charting that could work. 793 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,440 It's it with minimal, minimal changes. 794 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,240 However, the the problem is the longer the wait and the many, 795 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,760 the more the chains go impose the data to another beacon chain 796 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,280 right then you you cannot synchronize them anymore. 797 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,520 Like you, I cannot know. Assuming that, for example, 798 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,480 you're you're a roll up, you're you're a roll up, I'm a roll up 799 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,240 and we're both posting the data to the beacon chain and we're 800 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:34,920 fetching the next block from Etherium. 801 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,360 We can both know I can know from the BLOB from Etherium if your 802 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,720 data was included without talking to you, right? 803 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,640 So in this case, this is exactly how meta chain works for the for 804 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:50,280 LRO for multiverse 6 model. But assuming that we're all 805 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,320 going to talk to that specific beacon chain. 806 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,360 Now the the next problem would be and now this is comes again 807 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,400 to the to the sovereign chain. Assuming that we're going to 808 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:05,560 have 10,010 thousand shards or 10,000 roll ups in the space. 809 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:12,360 Now where would this data be processed, pushed to even even 810 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,200 if it comes only to a block header, but to a minimum kind of 811 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,160 information, you still have this kind of overhead of 812 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,640 communication that you need to do and integrate and write this 813 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,400 kind of minimum information into an authorization chain that will 814 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,040 give us the synchronicity or the sync synchronity across the 815 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,200 execution in order to execute stuff directly from one to 816 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,560 another and not routing them, routing the the data per SE to 817 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,040 through the beacon chain. Well, that's, and that's the 818 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,320 reason like we, we, I thought, OK, what if I, I, I, we are 819 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560 Etherium, right. So you assuming that we will be, 820 00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:52,840 we will get to the same problem. It's just a matter of time 821 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,040 where, where each of the blockchains will just get to the 822 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,280 same problems that the then what, what would, what, what 823 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,400 would happen? And in this case, for example, 824 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,600 if you would apply the same principle as Etherium, that 825 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:09,400 means in order to, to my transaction to get forwarded to 826 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,000 your chain, I need to compete economically speaking, to with 827 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,360 all other L twos that my transaction will fit into that 828 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,120 block space, very limited block space of 1 beacon chain. 829 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,600 Now, if the, for example, if the shards are being connected to 830 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,480 the execution shards and there's a proper messaging system 831 00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:31,680 through the execution Shard, the execution shards will have tons 832 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:36,120 of capacity to broadcast to, to to process 10s of thousands of 833 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,880 shards. So it's just the scale of things 834 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,600 is just just put it at the at the the power of 10, right? 835 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,600 And then you'll you'll get kind of the problems where, where 836 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,920 everything will will just kind of hit, hit the limitation. 837 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,880 I hope, I hope it it's not too abstract and it just goes a bit 838 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,160 to the desire rationales. Yeah, Yeah. 839 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,320 No, I think, I think it makes sense. 840 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,280 I is it then I guess it's also a problem, especially since we 841 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,880 have like sort of this L three thing now as well where someone 842 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:10,920 post and 1st to like the L2 and then I guess yeah, you have like 843 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,440 another tree that basically that is not synchronised with the 844 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,600 beacon chain and that might be. 1% exactly. 845 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,080 That's that's the the main problem. 846 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,600 Like it would require the play L2 to pause the transaction or 847 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,600 the state of that L2 to that, that receipt or the, the, the 848 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,440 state of that L3 to L2 and then from L2 to north 1L1 in order to 849 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,120 that message to get through like that, that, that won't work. 850 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,400 And, and assuming that, as I said, that the the L1 will still 851 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,960 be the same. Like we, I think we do have a 852 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,040 lot of data availability models and other stuff that that kind 853 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:46,400 of again, fragments the state. If if we assume that the, the 854 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,840 model will be default as a sequencer where only, only 855 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,800 someone will keep the state. And in order to execute or trust 856 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,240 anything, you, you'll need to kind of fetch, fetch that state 857 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:04,320 that I think that kind of add some, some, some sort of 858 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,960 challenges, like again, some some sort of challenges. 859 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,480 How would they talk to each other? 860 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,880 Like then we'll, we'll fall back again to bridges where I think 861 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,080 IDC is the the good, the good. I think I, I hope like big 862 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,720 things got IDC exist. They might say same. 863 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:23,560 The entire messaging with fragmentation across the all 864 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,560 those layers. Right, right, right, right, 865 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:27,360 right. Makes sense. 866 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:29,120 Yeah. OK, OK. 867 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,280 Then we went like pretty deeper. I think we hopefully we didn't 868 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,200 like lose everyone along the way, but I think, yeah, super 869 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,880 interesting to hear this from yeah, like your experience, how 870 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,880 you went through and how far everything has come. 871 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:47,520 So maybe we can for the last few minutes switch a bit to, you 872 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,920 know, like the broader Multiverse X story. 873 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,640 I guess you you're not just building this tech. 874 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,840 I mean, I guess you predominantly are like deep in 875 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,280 that, but there's obviously like stuff being built on top of it. 876 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:07,120 And I think what's interesting in your case is, yeah, that is 877 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,360 like a very integrated ecosystem with like many, many parts sort 878 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:19,200 of handled in some way by by by your team or like sort of the 879 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,080 the, the broader multiprose ecosystem itself. 880 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,040 It versus like, you know, some more fragmented thing that is 881 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:30,960 like sort of Ethereum, I guess. So yeah, I guess maybe the 882 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,080 question is, you know, how do you think about this like 883 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,720 ecosystem building and integrating things or, or what's 884 00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:42,840 like the broader vision there? I think it seems like also 885 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,840 sovereign chains are trying to bring a little bit more other 886 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,120 people more in. So, yeah, happy to hear how 887 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,240 you're how you think about that and the future for, for like the 888 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:54,080 sort of Multiverse X ecosystem. Yeah. 889 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,160 Definitely, definitely so. So while I percent agree with 890 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,680 the part that we're trying to get even more ambitious people 891 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,320 involved, but also the Spark contract framework, it kind of 892 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:10,120 proven at least to some sort of the threshold that it it can 893 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,320 work. So the, the mention has pretty 894 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,680 much all kind of primitives from concentrated liquidity, stable 895 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:22,000 swaps, all kind of AMM spools, liquid staking, multiple liquid 896 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,160 taking protocols and all that. So that, that's that. 897 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,840 But now going even to the deeper level, if you want to like, if 898 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,960 you want to persist and build a, a, a protocol that will be 899 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,360 developed for decade to come, you cannot train people only at 900 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,080 the smart country level and then assume that they will contribute 901 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,440 to the protocol, right? So this is kind of A22 sided. 902 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,920 I really hope that it will will will work. 903 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,160 But maybe going back to to your question, yeah, we we we kind of 904 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,240 built many teams like now they're getting more like a spin 905 00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,480 off their own space. But one of the the products is 906 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,640 export, though one of the spin offs from from multiware sex 907 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,560 where what we're very interesting is our approach was 908 00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,720 again, I I think everybody remembers build the platform and 909 00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:17,080 developers will follow. Build pretty developers user 910 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,360 will follow like that. That's kind of a lie. 911 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,520 But we we heard too many cycles and then we we kind of got we 912 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:30,880 believed that naively not build the protocol and then waited for 913 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,520 the users, right. And you deserve yourself that 914 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,840 ever came. And then while, while that week 915 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:40,240 we could waited, awaited and waited to, to for some results 916 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,040 or said, OK, we're kind of hardcore engineers, let's try to 917 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,880 do something about it. And that's how we actually start 918 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,840 the, the next day. And, and when with one hand, we 919 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,640 were kind of having this bottom up approach with the protocol 920 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:58,080 and sharding scaling for masses. But then if you want to, to, to 921 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,880 scale and reach mass adoption, then we're looking at the 922 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,800 Internet. There were like 222 moments like 923 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,560 there was a Fibre Channel where you have distribution like what 924 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,080 the sharding does. And then you need. 925 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,640 We had the Internet browser moment where you kind of have 926 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,160 extracted the, the entire complexity when not only the 927 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,520 geeks could work and, and start using Internet, you kind of have 928 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,720 the, the browser moment. And that's actually what we 929 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:24,000 tried to do with the X portal where the portal would be the 930 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,400 portal, your portal to everything. 931 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,680 So it kind of abstracts the entire complexity with both that 932 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,480 kind of that that product as well, which I think I think 1.5 933 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,360 million users in less the 1st 12, I think 12 or 24 months 934 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,320 after launch. And then yeah, that allowed us 935 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,560 to to build or at least experiment some, some very 936 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,480 interesting stuff like to launching to a fight, right. 937 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:51,120 So I can give you a very short, like where we come from, like we 938 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,640 are the second Unicorn of the country. 939 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:56,240 And then what there, there were a lot of people that put bets on 940 00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:57,840 us and believed in US and so forth. 941 00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,920 And we, we did lots to, or we think that we, we, we did not go 942 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,640 went against other communities and so forth and built our own 943 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,640 community base. But what whenever people trust 944 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,160 you and they put bets on you, they're taking a lot of risk. 945 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,840 And what happened actually when you inboard 1,000,000 users with 946 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,400 0 experience in crypto, the hackers were in heaven. 947 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,080 Like you can imagine how much social engineering against those 948 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,200 users happened and how many people kind of also lost money 949 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,520 into all this kind of phishing, the tents and all that kind of 950 00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,720 stuff. So we thought what what can what 951 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,120 can be done such that the next bull run will will I can sleep 952 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,760 good and all that even my parents are safe, right? 953 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:45,600 So well, indeed, actually I said, OK, if we do like the the 954 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,280 external old accounts like EOA accounts approach, that would 955 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,120 mean that every transaction would need to go to the VM 956 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,880 execution, right? So it will need a smart contract 957 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,000 to open and verify that signatures. 958 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,560 And you basically, especially in the WASM environment, there's 959 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,680 still a lot of work to do. Like it could get even better. 960 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,600 And we do you don't want to add in a chain of let's say you were 961 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,320 called 10 smart contracts for liquidating AM or whatever. 962 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,800 Just add another multi sig on top or 10 multi sigs on top with 963 00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,160 cryptographic, it will just get worse. 964 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,480 So we said today's today, let's see what what can be done. 965 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,240 So we, we actually added a secondary field at the protocol 966 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,880 level, which is checks a guardian so-called guardian 967 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,640 signature, which is basically the the exporter comes with a 968 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,640 black box signature, a black black box memonic, which you 969 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,480 cannot read well, only through a cryptic backup such that it is, 970 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,160 is foolproof. And then you basically in that 971 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,920 way you register the application or the device at the protocol 972 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,360 level to cost sign your transaction. 973 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,200 So you basically cannot, even if I give you right now the 974 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,360 mnemonic of 1 multiverse 6 account, there was a page like 975 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,360 called equaled heist where there were like 6 million people 976 00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:03,160 trying to watch where I saw that the post with a seat phrase 977 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,000 published where they could could not steal the money. 978 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,400 You'd be quiet because it's required the same way you even 979 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,840 if you have the my my bank account login, you require the 980 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,000 two FA, the second signature, right, the second device that 981 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,120 will authenticate you. And we, we kind of took the same 982 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:23,400 principles as a bank account, like no, as a staking account. 983 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:28,400 You like assuming that I, I have a phone here. 984 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,240 I, I, I, I have registered and I have the second one where I am 985 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,240 importing just the, the C phrase and try to, to initiate this 986 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,080 kind of transaction. And then this first thing, OK, I 987 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,520 will notice I cannot move the, the, the funds because they're 988 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,840 locked. I let let me try to re register 989 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,640 a new, a new the same way you would call the bank and say, 990 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,840 Hey, I want to, I just want a new token. 991 00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,600 Fuck it. I, I lost that that one drop it. 992 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,080 I I need a new one. They say, OK, sure, I'll mail 993 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,600 you what right. So they, they will first give 994 00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,920 you some sort of a time, a buffer that no, not this is not 995 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,920 the gun held to your head to while while you're doing that 996 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:05,960 call. It's it's kind of kind of common 997 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,480 sense. And then the the process would 998 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,120 be. I, I I tried to register, I 999 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,640 would send the transaction on chain that goes through. 1000 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,160 I'm allowed to do that, but the transaction has a bonding time 1001 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,280 of 20 days, right? So in that case, the second 1002 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,080 device, which is already assuming that I still have my, 1003 01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,960 assuming that I still have access to my current device, it 1004 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,720 will have a notification similar to, for example, Facebook or 1005 01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,560 Instagram or whatever. Is it you that you're trying to 1006 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:38,120 login, yes or no? If I say yes, basically it asks 1007 01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,000 me, do you want to give the rights to those, this new device 1008 01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:44,160 to sign to move the balance or whatever, give the rights to 1009 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:48,400 sign the transaction, yes or no. If I say no, then basically it's 1010 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,960 just the that account can just retry to reregister, but it, it 1011 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,480 cannot move any fun. The cool part, if I could say 1012 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,600 yes, then instantly it just goes and transfer the security. 1013 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,960 Now those are like on the one hand, just going back the on the 1014 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,320 one hand, you have this kind of super fast infrastructure, crazy 1015 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,480 complex. And then on the other hand, you, 1016 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,000 you just go to full proof versions of applications where 1017 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,280 I, I know that my, my, my parents are safe on the Internet 1018 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,960 and they can do all this kind of transaction. 1019 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:18,480 Maybe. Yeah. 1020 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,240 The the 11 of the very interesting part is we also 1021 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,840 acquired, I think we're kind of the the only L ones coming out 1022 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,840 from Europe where we acquired and have AE money license and a 1023 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,800 kind of neo bank license to operate IBAN accounts and have 1024 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,640 issued in partnership with MasterCard debit card attached 1025 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,880 to IBAN accounts that now packing it into with the 1026 01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:44,360 protocol one with the LL1 packing it with a very cool user 1027 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:48,280 interface. You could basically just easily 1028 01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,680 spend and use all this kind of super hardcore tech and cool 1029 01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:57,480 stuff that goes decentralized and open border and so forth. 1030 01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,160 But also on the same time, just go go outside and buy you a 1031 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,280 beer, right. So what, what if our, our 1032 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,160 question was what if we can do that? 1033 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,000 And actually it, it, it ended up that we, we actually, we're live 1034 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,560 with all this kind of crazy stuff. 1035 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,040 Yeah, that's a really cool mechanism. 1036 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:19,160 Thanks for diving into that. I think so basically like these 1037 01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,000 20 days, like if someone has the mnemonic, they can just try to 1038 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,440 register a new device, but you could still block it. 1039 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,120 But OK, if you lost any, you you wait the 20 days, it'll 1040 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,160 automatically pass over just in case. 1041 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:32,880 Yeah. OK. 1042 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,440 So you do need to like interact a little bit with the account, 1043 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,920 at least the frequently if you lost the mnemonic, let's say. 1044 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,320 Yeah, yeah. So it's not perfect, but the 1045 01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:46,080 idea is, for example, assuming that my phone just got crashed, 1046 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,680 I don't have access to it and so forth, then basically I still 1047 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,040 need to be able to recover this kind of the fonts. 1048 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,840 And assuming that I do have access, I'm still getting 1049 01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,040 notifications all the time or I can just hear hear or listen to 1050 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:01,560 what the account does and so forth. 1051 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:06,520 Like I, I don't think that that the ideal case would be to lose 1052 01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,040 lose access to the funds forever like. 1053 01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,920 Yeah, I know exactly. There's like a sort of OK, yeah. 1054 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,080 I think it's like you have to die one death somewhere a little 1055 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,320 bit. And I think this is like a nice 1056 01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,400 trade off that you're exploring or doing there. 1057 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,120 So yeah, that's quite impressive. 1058 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,640 I, yeah, I really like it. Cool. 1059 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,760 I mean, yeah, thanks so much. I think we went like super deep 1060 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:35,160 into everything. I hope people take away a lot 1061 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:39,880 about multiverse acts and like understand how much cool tag you 1062 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,760 build and like what's still to come. 1063 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,320 Is there any, any final thing you want to say or you want to 1064 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,960 like lead people towards or want to make them aware of what's 1065 01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,400 happening or how they can get involved? 1066 01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:56,800 Then please, let's sit. Yeah, definitely, definitely. 1067 01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:01,720 So I'm, I'm, I do believe that there's a lot of stuff that is 1068 01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,440 still to be built, as I said, like on the sovereign chains, 1069 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,560 what what there there are the first, I think couple of of 1070 01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,680 chains coming up line up with EVM, bringing EVM composability 1071 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,600 and compatibility. Then there's should be we're 1072 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,960 looking and actively talking to several teams from Solana 1073 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,280 ecosystem to build a Solana VM, then move VM. 1074 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,000 That would be also very cool part. 1075 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,440 And then hopefully to get one of the versions that will, will 1076 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,880 just wrap and have a unified execution environment across all 1077 01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,200 those kind of crazy VMS. So what, what, what if and just 1078 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,960 open it, seeing it better like that then while I think to 1079 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:42,520 believe that risk taking is definitely, I think very, very 1080 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,920 crazy idea that eventually kind of every ecosystem will have. 1081 01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,320 And yeah, I, I, I mean here big, big Congrats to you, Felix. 1082 01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,480 I know you, you had some very, very cool close stuff recently 1083 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,120 announced and the whole yeah, hopefully we'll, we'll work 1084 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,960 together on that that one as well down the road. 1085 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,280 Yeah. And there there's a couple of 1086 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,240 stuff. I, I, I maybe also very, very 1087 01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:11,160 interesting that I have not seen yet because of those licenses 1088 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,440 that we're also having with either accounts. 1089 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,880 What if we're going to build a chain or a chain framework that 1090 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,480 where the banks could just spin off their spin off spin on their 1091 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,560 their own infrastructure, right. So we're going to explore with 1092 01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,280 our own, put a framework together and then work with the 1093 01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:30,640 central bank to kind of let's see if that could be tokenized 1094 01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,880 directly on chain or what if, what if I just throwing a bunch 1095 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,400 of stuff. Assuming that legislation is is 1096 01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,720 being solved, the licenses are on the table and we do have this 1097 01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,880 kind of toolkit on the table. It's an open question to what, 1098 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,440 what can we build? Like how, how far can we go? 1099 01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,720 And that's, I think just a matter of time until the way I'm 1100 01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,200 thinking, just a matter of time until whatever you're thinking, 1101 01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,880 I'm going to think about it too. It's just a matter of time that 1102 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,000 I do the ecosystem, it is progressing good enough it will 1103 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,280 get get there. Yeah, yeah. 1104 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:09,080 Like you mentioned like the consumer grade, like the core 1105 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,560 primitives consumer and then the institutional enterprise, I like 1106 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,680 that framework as well. So I guess you you are 1107 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:20,520 definitely involved in all the those areas so. 1108 01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:25,520 We just noted, funny enough, I just had a consistent call with 1109 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:29,920 the founders yesterday and there's the Institute of 1110 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:34,000 Research and Engineering making from the national government 1111 01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,560 from Romania that is being part and they have the NFT 1112 01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,160 marketplace running and they're exploring with the sovereign 1113 01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,320 chains. And the cool, Craven, crazier 1114 01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,080 part, they like there's a partnership between the 1115 01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:50,040 government, the, the China government and European, several 1116 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,720 European governments where the China one is exploring to, to 1117 01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,760 launch their own NFT marketplace as well for foundational 1118 01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,160 Olympics guys. And and explain that like how 1119 01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:06,240 how crazy it it got like from from talking all this kind of 1120 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:11,520 crazy cryptographic protocols, then governments finally coming 1121 01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,520 closer and exploring this the the technology. 1122 01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:16,840 With the naxis. Yeah. 1123 01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:19,240 Yeah, maybe soon. Soon. 1124 01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,160 Chinese meme coin. Coming. 1125 01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:26,880 We'll see. All right, yeah, thanks so much. 1126 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,120 I really enjoyed this and and thanks for being the first 1127 01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,280 podcast in in seven years. So yeah, I hope the listeners 1128 01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,720 enjoyed this episode. And yeah, I'm get in get in 1129 01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,240 touch with the multiverse ecosystem. 1130 01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,320 So. Thanks for that, Alex. 1131 01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,800 Highly appreciate the time and thanks a lot for the patient 1132 01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,040 guys. I know might might have been a 1133 01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:48,800 bit tough with all that stuff, but sharding will come 1134 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,880 eventually to everybody. Nice. 1135 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,640 A good final words. Thank you for joining us on this 1136 01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,000 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1137 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,040 week. 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