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Welcome to episode of the show 
which talks about the 

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Technologies projects and people
driving decentralization and the

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blockchain revolution. 
I'm Brian Crane. 

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And I'm today speaking with 
floor and gloves for Orion is, 

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you know, one of the most kind 
of knowledgeable people at this 

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intersection of Law and crypto. 
He's been a guest on this 

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podcast before actually six 
years ago. 

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I checked before, we did an 
episode about smart contracts, 

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the doll and he's been, you 
know, deeply involved in the 

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Crypt of space for a long time. 
I was organizing Bitcoin meetups

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back in, like, 2014 13 and he 
would show up there at the very 

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beginning, and he's also the 
proud owner of very cool domain 

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name. 
That's kind of, you know, 

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indicates how early he was 
arresting thing, Block C. 

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Not lawyer, and so we're going 
to Think about regulation and 

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crypto today like lots is going 
on in regulation. 

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If you know some focus on Europe
where foreign is based and where

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flooring is most expert but you 
know we're going to try to cover

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is also in the global context. 
So before we get into that we 

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Face some words from our 
sponsors, first of all course 

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one, so securing blockchain and 
learning, words doesn't need to 

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be energy intensive or 
complicated and by staking your 

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assets. 
With course one you can continue

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to network security and earn 
rewards to course, one has been 

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a Pioneer in this space as 2018 
securing billions of dollars in 

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assets on you know, over 25 
different decentralized 

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networks, like Salon across most
of the area. 

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If you need to tution and you 
want one around your own branded

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note, you can also do that with 
corresponds, right? 

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Label service and leveraging 
their about proven 

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infrastructure. 
So, head over the course of one 

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and start your state New Journey
today and second pair swap. / 

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swap is a multi-chain decks 
aggregator. 

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That means that through Paris 
up. 

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You can easily access the 
liquidity or various different. 

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Decentralized exchange has the 
protocol automatically finds the

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cheapest liquidity for you. 
So you can trade knowing that 

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you're getting the best price. 
It's also very gas friendly and 

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helps you keep your transaction 
costs low. 

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They recently added support for 
Avalanche, polygon BSE Phantom. 

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So you can use Periscope all 
across the blockchain world and 

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you can also use it directly 
from We can let your life if 

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using a ledger, and they also 
became a doll recently. 

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So if you have to PSP token, you
can participate there. 

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So. 
Yeah to learn more and check it 

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out. 
Go to Paris off the io / 

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epicenter. 
And with that welcome Florian, 

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it's great to have you back on. 
I'm super happy to be back. 

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Thank you for the invitation. 
And yeah, I think it's about 

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time to talk about legal again 
on this podcast. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, I mean there's been a few 

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legal episodes. 
I think between the last time we

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had you on, you know, is when I 
was looking at, okay, it was 

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like, just over six years ago. 
Long time. 

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I think we were actually 
speaking about the doll and, you

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know, just lock it down. 
I think in there in the notes, 

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it was called, you know, I guess
it was before it got it, fell 

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apart and speaking kind of a 
bad. 

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You know, what? 
A smart contracts in the legal 

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contract context. 
I think, you know, one of the 

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topics was, could you sue? 
Adult. 

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And you know, how does that fit 
kind of into now? 

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Of course, it was questions. 
I think six years later or not 

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resolved, even though decrypt 
the space has progressed 

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tremendously, but I think legal 
and Regulatory uncertainty in 

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questions. 
Still hugely important and a 

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huge topic. 
Indeed and it's interesting 

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because the space has grown 
tremendously since then and 

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famously the Dow failed. 
But now six years later the 

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house. 
I think one of the hottest most 

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interesting, most vibrantly 
developing aspects of the crypto

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community at the moment and so 
it's really kind of cool to see 

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this full circle. 
I also saw I think the founder 

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of argon say, yeah. 
We were pre product Market fit 

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essential. 
For like four years, but now you

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know in 2022, the world is 
catching up with this vision and

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I think that a lot of the 
questions we touched upon six 

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years ago. 
I indeed not answered. 

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And actually now I think really 
being considered by much more 

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serious people than me. 
So Regulators actually and yeah,

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also lawyers in big law firms, 
you know. 

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Now having clients with, you 
know, maybe corporations or 

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startups alike. 
I'd say, hey, I want to doubt, 

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you know, make it happen. 
And so yeah, it's I think it 

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really a good time, really? 
To come together here again. 

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And look at those developments 
and try to understand them. 

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I went back to this original 
episode. 

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We did six years agos and I have
to say that I was so clueless 

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looking back about what this all
really meant in the sense. 

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We all were though. 
And so yeah, I just think it's 

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good to talk but in law, nothing
seems ever final. 

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But then in crypto also, 
everything is changing so fast 

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that that's really hard to keep 
up. 

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Cool. 
That's interesting. 

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I'm curious like when you went 
back to that old episode. 

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What were the biggest things 
that I felt like? 

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Oh, yeah. 
I was so wrong about this. 

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I think my main problem back 
then is that internally? 

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I liked a really clearly defined
use case for dolls. 

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I obviously we saw the doubt, it
was kind of this Venture 

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investment thing somehow. 
But I was not clear, how this 

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style would not invest into 
classical Ventures, which in my 

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view, at the time, were not 
really doubts, but, like, 

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startups, as I knew them. 
And so, what I definitely did 

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not see, is that etherium, quite
naturally now, In fact, but at 

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the time, I didn't see how he 
soon would give rise to, you 

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know, this layer of 
decentralized exchanges and 

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lending protocols and how those 
protocols by virtue of being, 

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decentralized would need some 
interesting form of some 

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functioning form of governance 
that now ends up, being those 

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doubts. 
And, yeah, looking back. 

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It's super obvious in 2015 or 
16. 

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When we did this episode. 
I didn't really get it. 

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I just have to marry honestly 
admit. 

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Right. 
That's a good point. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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I mean, I also, you know, member
and I was involved in a caring. 

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Also kind of at this is very 
early on and the thing that also

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is like in retrospect seems so 
obvious and that I miss with 

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just the ability to basically, 
you know, fund the development 

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of applications smart contract 
applications using tokens. 

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Like that wasn't like, even 
though, of course you had a 

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theorem itself, fun. 
Itself through, selling it open,

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but that you'd have like the 
applications on top, leverage, 

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the same mechanism. 
Now, it seems totally normal, 

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but it seems so obvious looking 
back and I think, yeah, just 

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like we have assumptions today. 
They will seem ridiculous and 

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six years from now, but that is 
what I love about crypto. 

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It constantly challenges your 
assumptions and you can never 

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rest on your laurels or your you
know, what you think is true. 

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I currently have this kind of 
grand Theory now. 

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Now because of all those kind of
things, I didn't see that that 

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says we're in kind of the third 
phase of crypto Evolution, where

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the first phase was the 
development of the settlement 

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layer itself. 
So, first Bitcoin, then you 

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theorems of the layer once now 
actually does layer choose in 

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the mix, which really scale the 
layer once, and then what 

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happened around, I see the 
kenosis ico's, kind of the baby,

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the kickoff for. 
It was the emergence of this 

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token layer. 
So I ciose new crypto acid. 

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That we're not building their 
own blockchain. 

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They, which is Building Services
on top of blockchain such as a 

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theorem and I was a part of 
this, you know, as much as you 

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and anybody who's been the 
space, but I always found a bit 

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like an more like an observer 
because I don't see myself as 

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you know, this big Finance 
genius and so I was like, wow, 

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okay, it's super interesting 
what you're doing there, but 

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understand that, you know, 10% 
and now in this third face that 

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I think we're entering it's IE 
the the financial Plumbing is 

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there it works. 
Its great Unity swap, you know, 

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you can use it. 
It's just there. 

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It's about building institutions
that use crypto for something 

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that is not really about crypto 
in the first place. 

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So this is more about, you know,
Society related things that we 

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either have or should have. 
But if we have had them in the 

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past somehow, the institution 
that was running them. 

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Maybe the government kind of let
us down. 

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And one, my favorite example 
here is maybe a CO2 price which 

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to this day. 
I just don't know. 

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What is the price of a ton of 
CO2. 

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And I don't think it's actually 
globally. 

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Harmonized. 
It's just kind of still subject 

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to Industry politics. 
Where as a global people. 

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I mean, it's one planet if it 
goes down, it goes down. 

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Why is there not a simple 
Global, you know, CO2 token that

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I can be trading as well as a 
retail investor in a sense, you 

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know, and it's because 
government simply refused to 

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give us that price. 
They were like, no, no, no, so 

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if we do this, everybody's going
to be unemployed because, you 

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know, steel is going to be so 
expensive. 

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Well, look at 2022. 
Steel is very expensive now, 

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because of, you know, so reality
caught up with us, anyways, so 

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well, good luck fixing that now 
now it's just, it's painful now,

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it wouldn't have had to be 
painful. 

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So yeah, I think this is phase 
three now crypto doing actually 

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useful things for all those use 
cases that we've always been 

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asked for, you know, in like 
twenty seventeen. 

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In, when we started to talk to 
politicians and Germany's 

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Redick, give us awesome, use 
cases. 

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Who this promising technology 
that you're building? 

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Yeah, ico's, you know, do you 
know them? 

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Yeah, that kind of looks like a 
casino. 

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Yeah, that's kind of true. 
Also, it was a huge speculative 

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bubble. 
However, what is, you know, even

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I haven't seen us and then 
secretly people who also 

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benefited from this idea wave 
just sat down and worked for 

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years building, amazing 
infrastructure, that, you know, 

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No became the defy summer, the 
nft summer, the whatever summer,

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Dow summer, probably this year. 
This all the stuff financed by 

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this is for 2017, Ico public, 
you know, so it wasn't all just 

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for nothing and built on all of 
this. 

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We are now entering into a new 
face of crypto that is going to 

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show the world. 
I think, how life-changing or 

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like, yeah, really 
transformative. 

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It can be that's, that's my 
auto, get them. 

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Oh, that's I really like this 
mantel. 

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Work. 
I think it's a nice way of 

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thinking about it. 
It's funny. 

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You also that you mentioned is 
carbon token, right? 

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Because actually I think two or 
three episodes ago, we had the 

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podcast with region Network, 
which is creating exactly that. 

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Right. 
So that's I love them. 

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They are awesome. 
I saw the match selling point in

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Amsterdam. 
I was like, wow, this is 

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honestly exactly what we need 
this framework for creating 

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those assets on. 
Yeah, regenerative. 

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Things. 
Yeah, so that's that that organs

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called NCT U, having anti 
coming. 

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I think they're just about to 
launch that. 

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Now, maybe let's talk a little 
bit about Regulation. 

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And the thing, actually, I 
wanted to ask maybe to start off

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with. 
So, you know, there's this 

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organization bundes block that 
you were. 

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I think one of the one of the 
initiators and even your 

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president for for many years, 
which it was kind of the German 

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crypto, you know, Lobby 
Association. 

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I'm curious like, what was sort 
of how was that? 

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How did it go there? 
What were the main did you guys?

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Yeah, like, what did you learn? 
What worked? 

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What kind of impact were you 
guys able to have? 

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That is a great question to 
start off because really 

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bundestag was my entry point 
into regulation of crypto. 

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And for many people, actually, 
what we learned is that the 

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crypto industry, this, you know,
small fledgling industry. 

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That became really significant 
over the past few years. 

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First of all, needs a voice with
politics that is kind of 

227
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,000
harmonized and reflects, you 
know, the values and and so on 

228
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,000
of the stakeholders in this 
industry and putting this block,

229
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,300
you know, fulfill this function 
quite well. 

230
00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:08,700
It started off with. 
I think a really really nice 

231
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kind of, you know, kind of a 
bang. 

232
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I would say it was at the height
of the yeah, craziness around 

233
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tokens. 
Everybody was interested in what

234
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,600
we had to say and we created 
with the help of 3040 people 

235
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kind of, as I don't know. 
60-page position paper on like 

236
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,700
everything that crypto and 
regulation kind of has to say to

237
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one another. 
And I think to this day, it 

238
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stays an important resource for 
people to, you know, understand 

239
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foundational issues. 
What we also learned I think, in

240
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,700
terms of building an 
organization like this is that 

241
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:50,100
in an industry where everybody 
is, you know, a little bit kind 

242
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:54,000
of more like as a first 
attitude, all Regulators crate, 

243
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,000
you know, they probably Don't 
understand what we're doing. 

244
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,100
And actually, we're building a 
world where Regulators 

245
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,200
themselves play a little bit of 
a different role than they do 

246
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,400
today for quite frankly. 
You know, when you think about 

247
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these centralized systems so 
that it really took some effort 

248
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,000
actually to build an 
understanding for one another. 

249
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,700
And I think this is now 
repeating in Europe, where I'm 

250
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:20,300
now engaged in building an 
organization where we see 

251
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:24,700
similar patterns with the super 
engage community and a regulator

252
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,500
that does not know. 
How you know, passionate this 

253
00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:30,700
community is about this thing 
that I reckon is about to touch 

254
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:34,400
and that we've seen play out on 
Twitter in the context of this 

255
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,400
TFR. 
What on hosted wanted man that 

256
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,700
we will talk about later, how 
passionate such a community can 

257
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:41,400
be. 
And I think back in 2017. 

258
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,800
It was very similar. 
When we start putting this block

259
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:50,900
what we, I think not fail that 
but like weren't sufficiently. 

260
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:55,300
I think capturing was all those 
other aspects of building an 

261
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,600
Ization, which is, you know, if 
you look at other industries 

262
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,800
that came before us beat the 
gaming industry, or, you know, 

263
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:04,400
they all ended up at least in 
Germany, creating some, you 

264
00:15:04,408 --> 00:15:07,700
know, big tanker of an 
organization that is kind of 

265
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:11,900
below institutionalizing all of 
those industry, voices, and 

266
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:14,400
relationships to politics and 
blah blah. 

267
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,000
And in that sense, bundestag 
always stator, you know, really 

268
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,700
Nimble kind of smallish 
Grassroots organization as 

269
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,400
opposed to becoming a properly, 
you know, top-down manage dog. 

270
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,000
A big budget. 
And so, in order to make room 

271
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,600
for that, actually, me and the 
other board members did actually

272
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,300
choose to not go for it, you 
know, third term, but after two 

273
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,400
terms now actually said, hey, is
there a new team that wants to 

274
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,400
take, you know, open a new 
chapter and so that team stepped

275
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,800
up? 
We found people in members and 

276
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,300
Community to now, yeah, welcome 
bonus block, any kind of a new 

277
00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:55,600
chapter. 
Whereas what I have actually She

278
00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,100
started in 2020 is to look more 
and more at the European level. 

279
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,700
Since since around September 20 
20 the EU has officially, you 

280
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:09,800
know, made it clear that they 
are working on regulating crypto

281
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,700
Assets in a harmonized way 
across all European 

282
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:16,600
jurisdictions. 
And so it became clear that it 

283
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,500
is needs a lot of attention and 
starting. 

284
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:23,500
Yeah, end of 2020 right around 
when you know, yeah, covid-19 

285
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:26,600
Tia thing is sinking in. 
Before I have to cope with, it 

286
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,400
was, I guess like, yeah, during 
the first or second wave, I 

287
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,500
guess of covid. 
We're just really started to get

288
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:37,100
a lot of my attention. 
And now is actually that I 

289
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:42,100
stopped being on the board of 
the bundestag is kind of my main

290
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:47,800
outlet for lobbying or generally
like, you know, my efforts in 

291
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,900
trying to talk to regulators and
and make them understand the 

292
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:55,000
good side of crypto, which is 
I've been doing this since 2014 

293
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,000
is that Actually, very 
self-motivated. 

294
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,400
I really back. 
Then I wrote a letter to the 

295
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,900
president of the German Center 
for cybersecurity essentially 

296
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,500
saying like yeah, they're all 
those problems with electronic, 

297
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,300
signatures durability and and 
blockchain. 

298
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,599
You should look at this. 
I don't know why I did this but 

299
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,800
this kind of started it off. 
And so I'm doing this in in such

300
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,200
a self-motivated fashion, but 
have found with bundes block and

301
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,400
that if you want to, you know, 
really have an impact, you need 

302
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,400
an organization. 
And so when this broke was 

303
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,600
Amazing as a start in Germany 
and also for me personally. 

304
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,800
And now I'm taking a lot of the 
learnings I had in Germany and 

305
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,300
kind of try to build something 
in Europe that that makes, you 

306
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:41,400
know, that improves on the 
things that weren't great and 

307
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,200
kind of picks up and continues 
the things that were really 

308
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,000
great. 
And witness block, which to me, 

309
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,500
mostly is about community and 
kind of, you know, really using 

310
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,500
them as a resource. 
I talk a lot. 

311
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:56,700
So I will one last sentence, but
What we've always done in 

312
00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,200
bundestag has asked our members.
Hey, you know, your ingenious 

313
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,900
people building bleeding edge, 
technology. 

314
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:07,100
And there are Regulators who 
think all of the problems that 

315
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,500
are in this space needs to be 
addressed with the laws, but 

316
00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:13,400
maybe, you know, there are 
Technologies, we can leverage to

317
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,300
actually solve some of those 
problems and now that, you know,

318
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,400
Defy is on the table with 
regulators and Brussels. 

319
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,600
It's kind of the same question 
to me again to the community. 

320
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,500
Hey, you know, Is a Galaxy 
brains out there? 

321
00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:31,200
We need you now to come up with 
crazy, zero, knowledge proof 

322
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,400
sand and other things that allow
us to, you know, give Regulators

323
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,900
what they want, which is, you 
know, mostly reasonable demands 

324
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:44,300
about certain, you know, 
assurances around fraud and 

325
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:45,700
money laundering and all those 
things. 

326
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,100
But without violating, the both 
the privacy, and the fundamental

327
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,000
way how crypto Works in Europe, 
which is what this and hosted 

328
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000
wanted been really, you know, 
touched upon so. 

329
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,900
Yeah, I think we're back there 
and I enjoy this because it's a 

330
00:19:00,908 --> 00:19:03,200
very creative movement. 
Also, I think the industry is 

331
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,200
now stepping up to this 
challenge. 

332
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,100
Once again, yeah, so I guess our
organization, right? 

333
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,700
You mentioned that you starting 
on the European level. 

334
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,000
Is this European crypto 
initiative? 

335
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,000
Maybe before we get into sort of
the, the actual meat of our, you

336
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,500
know, what are the core issues 
that, you know, I do want to 

337
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:29,400
spend Quite a bit of time on 
often, I guess one looks, for 

338
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,200
example, to coin center-right. 
As an example of like, okay, an 

339
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,000
organization that at least from 
the outside seems to have done, 

340
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,800
you know, like really good job 
and like, you know, advocating 

341
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,200
in a good way in the u.s. 
If you see it kind of evolved in

342
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,400
a similar way, we're like, I 
know you have like a good 

343
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,800
research staff or like how do 
you see this organization 

344
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,500
evolve? 
Yeah, thank you for that 

345
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:55,000
question. 
So the European crypto 

346
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,800
initiative is I think quite 
interesting in many dimensions. 

347
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,700
One of them is in fact that we 
invest a lot into a research 

348
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:10,600
staff into senior policy experts
that, you know, have experienced

349
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,600
on the EU level, which is just 
so particular, but also people 

350
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,500
who, you know, have either 
written laws before themselves 

351
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:21,000
because they work for government
or they have worked in Academia 

352
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,700
analyzing laws giving No, really
detailed commentary on, you 

353
00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,200
know, half sentences of 
individual paragraphs. 

354
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,800
You do this really hard core 
work that lawyers do in those 

355
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,600
masochistic ways. 
So those people who love policy,

356
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,800
you know, and crypto and who 
have, I have a passion for 

357
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,800
those, you know, really bleeding
edge challenges, you know, like 

358
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,600
I have another who co-founded 
this organization with me, those

359
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,200
of you who are hiring at the 
moment and it's great fun 

360
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,000
because I think also for them. 
It's an amazing opportunity to, 

361
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:59,900
you know, work on something that
actually matters, which is not 

362
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:03,000
often the case in law. 
You can easily be trapped, you 

363
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,100
know, being a transaction lawyer
on big transactions that are 

364
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:09,400
very complicated and require, 
you know, you having a massive 

365
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,200
IQ, maybe, but I mean, you're 
just making rich people richer 

366
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,800
in a sense, right? 
And then maybe critics that say 

367
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,100
working on crypto lobbying is 
similar, but I would venture to 

368
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:21,700
say that it's quite the 
opposite, I think crypto is the 

369
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,700
biggest June horse for 
redistributing wealth in this 

370
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:26,500
world that we've seen in a long 
time. 

371
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:30,100
And that's that's what motivates
me to work in it, you know, so 

372
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:34,600
do you see I getting back to 
that is research heavy in that 

373
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,200
sense. 
But what we started out as in 

374
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,500
2020 is really establishing 
relationships Regulators. 

375
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,300
So it's hard to understand what 
that really entails but 

376
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,200
Regulators are, you know, 
there's not one type in the you,

377
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,200
there is the commission, which 
is, you know, really brainy 

378
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,200
smart, kind of nerdy people who 
are very much all about, you 

379
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,600
know, being very accurate and 
information base. 

380
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,800
Then there's the council which 
represents kind of the national 

381
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,500
European interest of the member 
states because they had Direct 

382
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:11,500
representatives of national 
governments and then have the 

383
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:14,600
European Parliament, which is 
this, you know, kind of a 

384
00:22:14,608 --> 00:22:18,500
democratically elected organ in 
the EU and all of them are 

385
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:21,400
involved in all those different 
pieces of legislation. 

386
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,900
All of them are Regulators in 
the sense, but they are totally 

387
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:26,500
different. 
They have different incentives. 

388
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:28,300
They have different education 
and background. 

389
00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:30,400
They have different people. 
They are accountable to. 

390
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:35,500
And so it took us, I would say, 
yeah, a year and a half, two 

391
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:39,000
years to, you know, meet 
everybody talk to them. 

392
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:43,300
It's hundreds of people, right? 
So we're talking about a massive

393
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:47,000
engagement, you need to have and
you need to pay people, you need

394
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,800
to pay into and this is actually
what I found rather. 

395
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:55,300
Concerning for democracy, in a 
sense, in Europe, is to even get

396
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,400
to all those people you need to 
pay intermediaries that are so 

397
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,000
well connected that can even 
give you access to everybody in 

398
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,300
Brussels. 
It's not like in Germany where 

399
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:06,600
we could, you know, just be like
hey, you know, where the term 

400
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,600
trim function Association, send 
us an email and then regulate us

401
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,200
with, you know, send you emails 
or call call you and invite you 

402
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:15,600
in Brussels. 
You you it works differently. 

403
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,300
And in this, in this, to, some 
extend, again, money question. 

404
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,700
And that is, I think Not not how
politics should work. 

405
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:26,600
But I also understand of course 
that the EU is so big that there

406
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,000
is no better solution at the 
moment. 

407
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,400
It's just. 
Yeah, also a thing that 

408
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,100
technology may actually help 
with in the future. 

409
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:37,800
Okay. 
Okay, cool. 

410
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:39,800
Well, let's let's let's get into
it. 

411
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,000
Right. 
I mean, I probably a bunch of 

412
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,000
people listening have maybe seen
some of those, you know, 

413
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600
headlines some of those 
conversations. 

414
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,100
So I think I particularly 
remember to Dad, you know, I 

415
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:56,500
think got quite a lot of 
attention. 

416
00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:00,100
One was, you know, briefly. 
It seemed like sort of on the 

417
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:05,600
table for the you to basically 
ban Bitcoin or at least become. 

418
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,600
Mining, I'm not exactly sure how
I think it was Bitcoin fully, 

419
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,000
right? 
And then another thing that came

420
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,100
up was this thing recently? 
Where again, I'm actually not 

421
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:21,600
sure where that is right now, 
but it sounded like, you know, 

422
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:29,900
pretty Extreme Measures to kind 
of band or at least disadvantage

423
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,900
what they called like on hosted 
wallet word. 

424
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,200
I think people in the crypto 
space would call all I can 

425
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,500
non-custodial wallet or self, 
custodial world where you are 

426
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:43,000
control your own Keys, which is 
in a way, the whole point of it,

427
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,800
but Darkness have to start 
there, but I was just like, ask,

428
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,400
like what are the most 
important? 

429
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,800
You know, regulatory questions 
that like, at the moment, or on 

430
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,100
the table? 
Yeah, so it's indeed the proof 

431
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:00,800
of work been that you mentioned 
which is at the moment of the 

432
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,000
table and is not likely to be 
reintroduced. 

433
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,500
Now in this very context in 
which it was originally raced. 

434
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:14,600
So in that sense, it's kind of 
you know, the warning is is off,

435
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:18,800
it is yeah. 
Yeah, we were able to convince 

436
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:24,900
and the people in the parliament
were able to be convinced that 

437
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:31,300
It's not a good idea and then 
the other, yeah, really 

438
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,200
controversial proposal. 
That came from Brussels 

439
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,300
recently, was the so-called TFR 
or travel of funds regulation. 

440
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,100
It contained. 
After the parliament looked at 

441
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:46,600
it and made Amendment proposal 
to it. 

442
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,500
The transfer funds regulation 
contained, what effectively 

443
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:54,000
could be, you know, said to be a
ban of an host of wallets. 

444
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:58,000
And Let's maybe start with this 
concept of an elusive wallets, 

445
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,000
which indeed I would agree is a 
deliberate framing. 

446
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,200
I don't know who came up with 
it, but it's non-custodial or 

447
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,600
self custodial or just a wallet 
since every, you know, hosted 

448
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,600
wallet. 
If you want to call it, that 

449
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:16,900
it's also a non-custodial wanted
for the person who hosts it for 

450
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:19,100
you. 
So I don't even understand. 

451
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:20,900
The concept of always did want 
it to be. 

452
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,700
It's just an account that I have
with a bank. 

453
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:27,200
I mean, you wouldn't My bank 
account hosted, wanted with my 

454
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,400
bank. 
It's so I think it's a framing 

455
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:36,100
device to make it seem like it's
unnatural and that the opposite 

456
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:39,600
of it is the natural one. 
And that is, of course not the 

457
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,700
case. 
I think that wanted source of 

458
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,500
custodial, walnuts are how 
crypto is supposed to work. 

459
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,400
But I do agree that, you know, 
we're still lacking great 

460
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,000
technology to keep those private
Keys secure and I do hope that, 

461
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,300
you know, lat Large-scale social
recovery systems actually will 

462
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,500
save us from having to keep 
Hardware devices somewhere. 

463
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:06,600
I don't really believe in. 
You know, everybody having, I 

464
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,700
mean, I love letter and 
treasures and I have them, but, 

465
00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:13,100
you know, I am not sure. 
Every human will end up having 

466
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,000
them. 
And so, social recovery is, 

467
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,700
hopefully something will see and
then I hope that Europe is still

468
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,400
around and has not banned, you 
know that technology because I 

469
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,900
think it will become the 
mainstream way awful Krypto. 

470
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:28,800
The top tips. 
I hope at least and the other 

471
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,300
element is, you know, why would 
you even go into this territory 

472
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:38,700
of making rules around those 
wallets and the motivation 

473
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:42,100
behind it originally was? 
Well, the financial action task 

474
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:46,200
force in 2019, made some 
guidances around money, 

475
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,900
laundering and terrorism, 
financing countries, and Europe 

476
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:54,900
itself, as a, you know, a nation
or a supranational. 

477
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,000
Mm are free to implement those 
guidances and most countries do 

478
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,700
it. 
It's like a broad consensus. 

479
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:06,900
And so this T FR is originally 
from this 2019 recommendation. 

480
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,300
And for reasons that I think are
also related to this framing 

481
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,100
Tropic of the unknown said, 
wallet Europe has adopted a very

482
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:19,500
strict kind of interpretation of
this original guidelines and 

483
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:23,200
ended up in the parliament 
version at least with this. 

484
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:29,200
Yeah trick Kind of rules around 
how on hosted wallets need to be

485
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,000
kyc. 
Identified how the source of 

486
00:28:32,008 --> 00:28:35,400
funds need to be identified 
despite there being virtually. 

487
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000
No standard around doing how to 
do this right now. 

488
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,300
And so it would leave crypto as 
it service providers. 

489
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:47,700
Be almost unable to comply and 
with kind of simple incentive to

490
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:50,500
just tell people. 
Hey, those wallets. 

491
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:53,100
You just simply cannot use them 
with us, at least, for the 

492
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:54,500
moment. 
Maybe never again. 

493
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,900
All those other walnuts. 
Basically, the ones you have 

494
00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:58,800
with us where you don't even 
have the private key, you know, 

495
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,400
that's easy that's accessible. 
And so just through that affect 

496
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,400
it would lead to a strong 
disincentive for people to use 

497
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,900
it and it would kind of 
counteract, you know years of 

498
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:12,200
efforts of people telling 
telling people to withdraw funds

499
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,800
from exchanges on to their what 
it's you know, I remember how 

500
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,300
this was four years or still is,
you know, a general 

501
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,600
recommendation and there's a 
recommendation you could not 

502
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,700
give any more in Europe. 
That's really frankly 

503
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,600
ridiculous. 
So that is T of our In a 

504
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,600
nutshell, the good news. 
I think that everybody listening

505
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,400
to this is, this may be happy to
hear. 

506
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,600
Is that so far, the signals we 
receive, is that now after this 

507
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,200
initial shock, the conversations
and the trial Oaks where this is

508
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,600
happening now kind of 
negotiation between commission 

509
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,900
Council and Parliament. 
It's they there's a growing kind

510
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:55,100
of understanding why it's, you 
know, just not wise to do. 

511
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,600
Without corresponding, you know,
industry practices around how 

512
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,900
this could even work in 
privacy-preserving Manner. 

513
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:06,600
And so I think we may actually 
not see this wanted bandwidth. 

514
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,600
Typically what we still are 
fighting for though is simple 

515
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,800
renaming of of this and hosted 
quality into. 

516
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,600
I think more, you know, maybe 
personal wallets, maybe just 

517
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,600
wallets, maybe self custodial, 
or non-custodial wants to. 

518
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:24,300
That should be terminology that 
is neutral right now. 

519
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:26,800
We don't believe it is. 
Is regardless of whether now 

520
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,700
there is this effective band 
contained in this TFR regulation

521
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:34,300
or not, maybe the last but maybe
even most important regulation 

522
00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:38,900
to mention that's on the table 
is the markets in crypto as its 

523
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:42,500
regulation. 
We have not really touched on it

524
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:46,000
yet, but it is at the moment. 
Also in the kind of finishing 

525
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200
stages in the so-called trial 
Oaks where all the three 

526
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,800
institutions negotiate, the 
final version of this text and 

527
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,400
again, Parliament. 
And I mean, that's probably its 

528
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,700
function to some extent has 
brought in a lot of new Concepts

529
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:05,500
that were not originally meant 
to be in this regulation. 

530
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:09,400
And when I looking with mica at 
a legislation that may 

531
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:15,200
potentially make decentralized 
Finance, completely unviable in 

532
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,900
Europe. 
And so this is the stuff that 

533
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:23,200
currently Keeps Us awake at 
night in you see I knew European

534
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,000
crypto initiative since we are. 
Yeah, effectively drafting 

535
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,700
decision, papers, statements and
recommendations, you know, after

536
00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:34,200
every meeting and before, every 
meeting of the people 

537
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,800
negotiating, we let them know 
that very particular things that

538
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,300
you shouldn't be aware of when 
they negotiate. 

539
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:45,100
And so, you know, guiding them 
through this process right now 

540
00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:51,200
is what we're doing in the mica,
in the TFR in, in other aspects.

541
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,100
There is an AML regulation. 
Now that sets up a new, a Mel, 

542
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,200
Oversight and of agency in 
Europe. 

543
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:01,300
So yeah, these are maybe the 
most important things right now.

544
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:05,900
And in the future, we see 
already more things coming 

545
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,900
around, texts around data 
economy. 

546
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:13,500
All kinds of things actually won
one thing, you know that comes 

547
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,800
up as a big question for me, 
right? 

548
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,100
I can mean for example, you 
mentioned this me coughing 

549
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,300
right? 
Any mention like, okay, maybe 

550
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:25,000
that would mean some kind of 
band, right? 

551
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,500
Of let's say defy in Europe, but
then of course like the 

552
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,300
interesting question is like 
what does that you mean? 

553
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:34,600
Like, what is D Phi in Europe? 
Right? 

554
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,100
Because then like let's say you 
have this units of thing is 

555
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:41,100
there and it's on Ethiopia or 
you know, like a lot of these 

556
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:45,000
things. 
So they're so like what would 

557
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,900
that imply with that imply? 
Like I don't know. 

558
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,700
Like for example, you couldn't 
have, you know, often maybe 

559
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,000
there's some legal entity. 
That is all. 

560
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,000
Mutations have maybe a 
foundation. 

561
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,600
Maybe that couldn't be in 
Europe. 

562
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,700
But well, actually, I don't 
think they are not mostly and on

563
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:06,100
your anyway, or like how, you 
know, how does that sort of? 

564
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:10,700
Interface with, you know, the 
rest of the world, you can 

565
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:15,700
people say simply kind of, you 
know, circumvent that by, you 

566
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:17,900
know, domicile in outside of 
Europe. 

567
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:24,600
Yeah, that's a good question. 
And the answer is not really, 

568
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,300
the solution is not to leave 
Europe. 

569
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,100
It's kind of like the GDP are 
this General data protection 

570
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,100
regulation. 
That everybody's familiar with 

571
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,400
even if they don't live in 
Europe, simply because Europe 

572
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,200
says, hey if you interface with 
European clients, you need to 

573
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,400
adhere to those rules and it's 
going to be very similar with 

574
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:46,800
with mica people. 
In the center, know it from 

575
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,000
method two, which is kind of the
equivalent regulation. 

576
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,300
For traditional Securities. 
Where also when you address 

577
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,200
European clue, you know be 
regulated. 

578
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,800
You need to be licensed and Miko
stipulates. 

579
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,500
All those licenses for crypto 
acid service providers, which of

580
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,300
course is a new term. 
And then in the understanding, 

581
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:10,500
it's almost everybody, you know,
who touches crypto is a crypto 

582
00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:12,800
as a service provider. 
And so, you need some sort of 

583
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:19,000
license or regular contact with 
an agency, possibly a new one, 

584
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:22,600
or not a new one, but Kind of a 
centralized one in Europe asthma

585
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:28,000
to get the permission to do it. 
And the question now with Defy, 

586
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,699
is that if it's a properly 
decentralised energy, it will 

587
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:35,000
have a hard time doing that even
because it's not a legal entity 

588
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:40,300
doesn't have a, you know, CEO. 
It doesn't have anyone who can 

589
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,699
speak on behalf of this entity 
officially. 

590
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,199
It cannot be regulated. 
Can it doesn't have a domicile. 

591
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,199
It does not have a postal 
address. 

592
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:51,800
So all those things. 
This is what daos in their pure 

593
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,800
form. 
Don't have. 

594
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:54,800
Of course. 
Some of them have legal entities

595
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,100
that accompany them. 
So it's very hard sometimes 

596
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:02,600
impossible for decentralized 
projects to comply with the 

597
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,900
stipulations in this regulation.
And so, what would it ban mean? 

598
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:08,200
It could mean a number of 
things. 

599
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,800
So, just straight out violating 
this Mica thing could result in,

600
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,000
for example, your domain being 
banned like European clients, 

601
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,800
European eyepiece. 
Cannot reach. 

602
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:21,900
The website of let's say you 
need swap. 

603
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:25,000
For example, that's a random 
example, it would be blocked on 

604
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,500
the, you know, on the tail coat 
layer just like, you know, I 

605
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:33,500
don't know child pornography or 
other kind of really bad 

606
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:36,600
websites or band. 
The same would be for, you know,

607
00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:40,900
D5 websites. 
Of course, you could still use 

608
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:46,100
those Services protocols through
a terminal, but it would just 

609
00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:48,600
make it, you know, impossible 
for normal people to use. 

610
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,900
I would say so. 
This is what effective ban would

611
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:55,900
look like a more indirect band, 
you know, would be in the sense 

612
00:35:55,900 --> 00:36:01,400
that this asthma there's 
European Securities and markets.

613
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,400
Regulator could potentially 
start enforcement procedures 

614
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:09,200
like the SEC did it with uni 
Swap all that. 

615
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,600
I mean, it's not an enforcement 
procedure with unit swab. 

616
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,500
It's like an open exploration. 
I think that the SEC does so as 

617
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:18,700
my could do the same with 
projects either inside of 

618
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,600
Europe, or outside of Europe, 
but targeting or in their mind 

619
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,800
targeting European customers, 
and then potentially arrived at 

620
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,200
you, finding you and saying, 
hey, you know, If you continue 

621
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,600
doing this you need a license. 
And for what you did in the 

622
00:36:30,607 --> 00:36:33,400
past. 
There is a fine that's possible.

623
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,200
That would also be effectively 
ban. 

624
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,600
But I think that may be the most
important thing would be the 

625
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,100
chilling effect. 
It has right. 

626
00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:42,500
If you're a permits to such a 
pass, it would just prevent so 

627
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:46,400
many, you know, 18 year old or 
16 year old kids who have heard 

628
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,400
of crypto who are nerdy and want
to try the stuff out to just 

629
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,500
never go into it because they 
think they end up in jail, you 

630
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:56,000
know, or they think, I don't 
know it just, it creates 

631
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,300
chilling effects that When 
people from even approaching, 

632
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,900
you know, that that that line 
that has been drawn Beyond which

633
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:06,200
you're a criminal now in Europe.
It's not the right. 

634
00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:08,700
I think attitude to approach the
topic. 

635
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:15,400
But yeah. 
Yeah, I'm still I'm still kind 

636
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,800
of like, you know, I'm still 
sort of struggling to see, you 

637
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,200
know, this, this kind of like 
play out because like, for 

638
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,200
example, I mean, if you look at 
the ACC and then the sort of 

639
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,900
enforcement they have done, you 
know, I mean one thing that's 

640
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:35,900
also like very clear is that 
their ability to then go after 

641
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:40,600
projects is like very very 
limited, you know, because there

642
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:46,100
are limited resources, Limited. 
For so they can I don't know 

643
00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:51,400
make some examples but by and 
large, it's just way too much 

644
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,000
going on. 
It's moving way too quickly 

645
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,900
people creating new things. 
So I think this whole idea you 

646
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:01,000
can kind of you know control it 
that way, put it in the Box. 

647
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,600
It doesn't seem that plausible 
and I think with Europe, That's 

648
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,100
probably going to be. 
I mean, that might be even more 

649
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:14,000
extreme know, because probably 
is going to take years for even 

650
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,800
this kind of regulator to be 
there for food for this, you 

651
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,300
know, to go from the European 
regulation today in actually. 

652
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,300
Okay. 
Now we are going to try to 

653
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:28,600
enforce this go after projects. 
I know some kind of 

654
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,100
decentralized applications that 
you know, running out some 

655
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,000
blockchains that, you know, they
targeting Europe. 

656
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,500
News has I mean, probably not. 
I mean, they're just there for 

657
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:42,100
anyone to use, right? 
It's not like particularly 

658
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:46,100
targeting certain jurisdiction. 
But of course, there will 

659
00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:48,300
probably would be many European 
users. 

660
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:49,900
Right? 
Just by the fact, there's a lot 

661
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,200
of people in Europe, Australia 
to see how that actually plays 

662
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,200
out. 
Yeah, I think the danger is of 

663
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,100
Europe, becoming a digital 
Backwater, you know, a staying, 

664
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,600
staying one. 
Maybe in the sense that the US 

665
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,300
China, maybe not that much, but 
maybe other regions, you know, 

666
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,300
around it. 
India looks more promising. 

667
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:17,500
I just recently been in South 
America and was very, very Blown

668
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:19,500
Away by the crypto doctor in 
Brazil. 

669
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,300
So, there are other really big 
regions, not just small 

670
00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:25,400
countries. 
You know who played this game? 

671
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,100
Oh, It's with Regulators, but 
big regions having a totally 

672
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:34,200
different attitude to crypto and
I think them embracing this and 

673
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:40,800
Europe, you know, staying not 
staying in this even becoming 

674
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,400
more hostile than now by really,
yeah. 

675
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,600
Implementing the laws as they 
stand now and forcing them to 

676
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,800
some extent. 
Even of course if I agree with 

677
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,700
you that it can always ever be 
them, you know, doing examples 

678
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:56,300
almost, you know, communicating 
publicly how Um, one receives a 

679
00:39:56,300 --> 00:40:00,000
fine, maybe a very high fine. 
They cannot go off to everyone 

680
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,000
so they try to send signals like
this, you know, so if all of 

681
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,900
that happens and the other big 
regions have a different story 

682
00:40:06,900 --> 00:40:09,800
than I just think Europe, mrs. 
Out and will in the end 

683
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,000
Implement just like today 
already, you know, all of us in 

684
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:19,400
Europe are using, you know, US 
dollar denominated stable coins.

685
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:24,600
It will be all other kinds of 
Innovations will be tied to. 

686
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,900
And maybe a US dollar or two 
companies or treasuries, you 

687
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:34,800
know, outside of Europe. 
So I think this is the real 

688
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,300
danger of Europe falling behind.
It's not that much that defy 

689
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,300
would, you know, stop existing? 
I accidentally Europe. 

690
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:45,300
Even has that power. 
Another perspectives on this to 

691
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:48,700
me, is that, you know, those 
Regulators in a sense have been 

692
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:53,100
around longer than us, and 
they've seen other, you know, 

693
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:55,400
supposed revolutions before and 
they've wrecked. 

694
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,300
I hated them and it all kind of 
worked out and I think they 

695
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:01,900
looking at it a little bit like 
this, you know, maybe we are 

696
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:05,300
under estimating or 
overestimating the effect of 

697
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:07,300
Regulation. 
Who knows? 

698
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,900
But I think rather what they are
under estimating is just you 

699
00:41:10,908 --> 00:41:15,400
know, the nature of crypto and 
how disruptive in a sense it is 

700
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,300
and disruptive is its kind of 
what does it even mean, right. 

701
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:23,100
It really means that crypto 
gives us an opportunity and in 

702
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:25,000
particular regulators and 
lawmakers. 

703
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:30,600
Restructure some basic things in
this Society for its benefit, 

704
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,700
and I just don't know whether 
they will be able to see this in

705
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:39,500
time in Europe, but that's, you 
know, in so many words, what we 

706
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:43,800
are really trying to tell them 
and you need to really benefit 

707
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,600
from crypto. 
You need to attack it at a more 

708
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,900
fundamental layer than just 
looking at, okay, you know, same

709
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,700
risk, same rules. 
That's what we always hear from 

710
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,600
Brussels. 
And you know, of course it it 

711
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,300
makes sense something on some 
level. 

712
00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:00,900
You cannot have the financial 
world, the traditional Financial

713
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:02,400
world, you know, follow all 
those rules. 

714
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,700
And then in crypto, you can do 
whatever, you know, this is 

715
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:08,000
obviously not what it is about, 
but I think it's about 

716
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,000
acknowledging that decentralized
Financial applications. 

717
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:15,600
They just, you know, take care 
of the financial needs of people

718
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,000
who have been vastly, neglected,
in the past, by the traditional 

719
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,100
Financial system. 
It's just, it's accessible in a 

720
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,400
totally different way. 
You know, you need a mobile. 

721
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,200
Phone pretty much and that's it.
You can start using crypto 

722
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,800
assets. 
And there are a lot of people on

723
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,700
this planet for which this is 
everything they can really. 

724
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:38,300
Actually, you know master in 
terms of access material. 

725
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,700
They don't have passports. 
They don't have bank accounts or

726
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:43,600
credit history. 
So acknowledging this 

727
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,900
fundamentally would allow Europe
to really I think take advantage

728
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:49,800
of this at the moment. 
Yeah. 

729
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,900
They may be creating this 
digital Backwater by. 

730
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,400
Yeah. 
Creating at least the illusion 

731
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,800
of of a ban, even if it is not 
even if you cannot properly 

732
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,900
enforce it, I it may agree with 
you there. 

733
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,500
Yeah. 
Actually, you mentioned you 

734
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,800
mentioned before like, you know,
sort of other topics coming up 

735
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,300
and you mentioned topic of tax 
and I've been thinking, you 

736
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:17,600
know, a fair bit about this this
topic of tax because to me, it 

737
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,800
feels like actually quite a 
different Beast, you know, in 

738
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,100
one particular way, right? 
So when you talk about, okay, 

739
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:31,000
regulating the five, right, you 
talking about, you know, this, 

740
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,200
you know, this, this all these 
regulations are targeting, you 

741
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,700
know, the protocols themselves, 
right? 

742
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:42,000
Even though the cat may be 
paradoxical but you know, the 

743
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,100
protocols or crypto company, so 
things like that, but now we've 

744
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:50,500
tax well, now you have people 
using crypto, you know, and 

745
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,900
they're you know buying and 
selling crypto and just aching 

746
00:43:53,900 --> 00:43:58,500
and maybe the buying any fees 
and then doing this and that and

747
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,300
then the whole bunch of 
transactions result. 

748
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,900
And then, you know, I was 
reading an article recently 

749
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:07,600
where I think there was some in 
this was fate in the u.s. 

750
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,500
Case, right? 
Some public accountant, you know

751
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:15,100
saying like what a nightmare is 
coming to us because he had been

752
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:19,600
doing this accounting for some 
kind of 20 year old friend of 

753
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,300
his who's like in college, you 
know, and it was always like 

754
00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:25,300
took like 15 minutes. 
Now, the guy's been doing some 

755
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,200
crypto trading and he sends in 
this spreadsheet and he was 

756
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,000
like, what on Earth am I gonna 
do this? 

757
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,000
So, I think you have this kind 
of weird situation when it comes

758
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:42,000
to tax, that is just going to be
like, pretty much impossible for

759
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:48,300
people to actually sort of file,
their taxes correctly. 

760
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,200
And of course, it's often, it's 
not even clear what on what the 

761
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,300
taxation should be of those 
things, but like that. 

762
00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:57,900
So that's things like a weird 
feeling, right? 

763
00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:02,200
Because then you all of a sudden
have kind of million Has tens of

764
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,400
millions of people who are all 
kind of like adults with the 

765
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,500
government. 
So I'm curious like what are 

766
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:15,400
your thoughts on on Taxation and
how governments can kind of will

767
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,900
deal with this? 
Yeah, it's it's such an 

768
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:24,500
important question also, and we 
see great comparisons in Europe 

769
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:27,200
itself. 
For example, Germany, which has 

770
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,000
you know, this everybody knows 
it somehow that in Germany after

771
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,000
holding as a private person, 
those crypto assets for year, 

772
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,600
the gains you make they are 
tax-free and those kinds of 

773
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:45,100
rules, but then, you know also 
in Germany, every transaction 

774
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:48,000
that you do even crypto 
truecrypt, okay? 

775
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,400
Be potentially, you know, a 
taxable event and that creates 

776
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,300
this really awful situation that
you just described where, you 

777
00:45:57,308 --> 00:45:59,700
know, a 16 year old kid. 
That is just doing some 

778
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,300
innocent. 
And if the trading maybe, I 

779
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:05,000
don't know what those kids do. 
You know, they end up with 

780
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,900
massive lists of transactions, 
the French have, I think an 

781
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:11,900
amazing solution for it, which 
is just they say, well, you 

782
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,100
know, we don't care about crypto
to crypto transactions. 

783
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:17,900
We look at the moment you cash 
in all your cash out. 

784
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,000
And this is when we try to 
assess your tax burden, just 

785
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,500
based on that, you know, there's
a massive simplification doesn't

786
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:29,400
require much technology, 
technological sophistication for

787
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,400
countries like Germany, and I 
think the u.s. 

788
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,100
Is similar where every, you 
know, transaction can be taxable

789
00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:39,400
in principle to make this work 
for a government and you know, 

790
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,400
to not criminalize your own 
people and really make them, you

791
00:46:42,408 --> 00:46:46,400
know, criminals without them 
wanting to you need to actually 

792
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,700
approach I think taxation. 
From a totally different 

793
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:53,200
perspective, which is a software
perspective, a data interchange 

794
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,800
and standards perspective. 
You need to say that as a 

795
00:46:55,808 --> 00:46:58,300
government. 
Hey, I'm interested, you know, 

796
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:01,400
and getting a taste on all those
millions of transactions that 

797
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,200
you guys are doing. 
However, I'm also willing to put

798
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,100
in the effort to Define how 
we're doing this and that's 

799
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:13,200
effectively means, you know, 
that exchanges maybe even defy 

800
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,000
protocols or whatever or 
services around those protocols,

801
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,500
you know, they Can Implement 
some simple interfaces, some 

802
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:24,300
simple, kind of data standards 
that make reporting basically 

803
00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:27,200
Autumn automatable. 
And then we could arrive at a 

804
00:47:27,207 --> 00:47:30,600
point where, you know, the 
government sends you, your text 

805
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,500
report. 
I think, Denmark and Sweden and 

806
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:35,700
some other countries have this 
where the government just has an

807
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:38,800
overview of what you did and 
then they just calculate your 

808
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,300
tax burden for you. 
You know, of course, this is 

809
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,100
this, maybe not what people want
from a privacy perspective. 

810
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:46,900
I'm not saying this is the 
favored solution, but it's like 

811
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,900
if you want to self, Sort of 
corporate taxation, need to make

812
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,000
it a software problem. 
And then solve it within 

813
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,300
software. 
It's problematic, when you start

814
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:58,400
with the legal obligations, like
everybody needs to declare all 

815
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,400
the relevant things and and pay 
the taxes on this according to 

816
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,400
those rules, but then the rules 
and everything else is so 

817
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,600
unclear that even the best 
software in the world will 

818
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:13,300
produce a tax return, as that is
wrong, you know, and this is the

819
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:17,400
case today, and I was involved 
in some consultation with the 

820
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,900
German. 
Mint where I made this position,

821
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,800
very clear. 
And we're now at least at a 

822
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,700
point where some of those things
they wanted to do around staking

823
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:30,400
and so on are not coming but 
addressing this fundamental 

824
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,400
issue is really what they have 
to do, which is looking at yeah.

825
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,000
In looking at this as a software
problem or doing the French 

826
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,800
solution, honestly, which I 
think is doing both, you know, 

827
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,800
look at it as software, but also
say, hey, Krypto to Krypto. 

828
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:48,000
I don't know, you know, that's 
that's that's tax. 

829
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,000
And people actually make real 
profits and not, you know, maybe

830
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,900
temporary profits in some 
unstable cryptocurrency that 

831
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:58,300
could, you know, just evaporate 
any moment. 

832
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:01,300
This is another element. 
Of course, that doesn't make 

833
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:03,600
much sense. 
But yeah, it's maybe two aspects

834
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,100
of the problem, right? 
But of course, that's a tricky 

835
00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:10,200
one because then, okay, now you 
cash out the stable coins, and 

836
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,900
then, is that what about that? 
And then, of course, also, it's 

837
00:49:13,900 --> 00:49:17,700
the sort of makes sense. 
To the extent that people 

838
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:21,900
actually need to go back into 
the, you know, Fiat system to 

839
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:26,500
then use that money, right? 
But if that's not the case, then

840
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,000
how is so I think another and 
this comes with the software 

841
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,700
statement stating the problem as
a software problem is like you 

842
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:37,500
need to be able, you need to 
kind of accept certain 

843
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:41,000
inaccuracies, you know, and the 
question is, what yields the 

844
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,900
best pragmatic result. 
You know, where do you have the 

845
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:47,900
least discrimination between But
why do you have the most, you 

846
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:51,500
know, effective, you know, 
deployment of government 

847
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:53,700
resources against, you know, I 
don't know. 

848
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:58,600
It getting some amount of text 
from this and I had a very 

849
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,600
utilitarian view on this. 
I think which is just should 

850
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,500
just go for something. 
That makes it so easy for crypto

851
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:08,000
people that they don't have to, 
you know, spend sleepless nights

852
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,600
over this and make it such that 
governments, you know, don't 

853
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,100
feel like they're missing out 
on, on whatever and I think the 

854
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:20,900
solution is Somewhere in more of
a software Direction, then then 

855
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:25,400
anything else or a massive legal
simplification, which I just 

856
00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:29,300
don't see Germany doing and they
said yeah, no way. 

857
00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:31,300
We're going ever going to 
implement this French solution 

858
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:33,900
in Germany, but that was the old
government, you know, so we 

859
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:36,700
don't know if this could 
hopefully come still, I don't 

860
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,400
know. 
I mean, you know, another thing 

861
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:44,100
that actually seems like, you 
know, easy to comply with is 

862
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:46,500
like a wealth tax. 
You Swiss. 

863
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,700
I know it's pretty easy to look 
at. 

864
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,700
Yeah, I mean but you know, 
insistent, of course it's 

865
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:56,000
written in, you know, if they 
still ambiguity or staking and 

866
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,200
you know, maybe that's still 
taxed differently and stuff like

867
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,100
that. 
But at the very least, you know,

868
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:02,500
to go at the end of the year and
be like, okay what all the 

869
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,300
characters I have, what all the 
things that have. 

870
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:07,300
What are they worth? 
And then you get paid? 

871
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,600
If you get taxed something based
on that, like that's something 

872
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,000
that's, you know, that's like 
sustainable writing, people will

873
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,000
be able to do this with a 
reasonable reasonably low 

874
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,400
effort. 
I agree. 

875
00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:22,500
There are ways to solve it even 
legally. 

876
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,400
But if legally, your assumption 
is everything is taxable. 

877
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,900
Then my God, you know, you 
really do creating criminals 

878
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:36,100
because nobody can track and I 
actually I have friend of mine. 

879
00:51:36,100 --> 00:51:39,500
You know. 
I left him his from from what 

880
00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:42,000
key. 
He tells me about it, you know, 

881
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,500
he's like, okay, you know, we're
takes so much time and effort to

882
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:47,900
implement just one decks or 
oneexchange. 

883
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,000
And, you know, it's like a 
hundred mutex is a Day created 

884
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,600
somewhere on the blockchain that
people can use for trading and 

885
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,000
he needs like half a year for 
one of them to make sense in 

886
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,500
his. 
So what he is, this bookkeeping 

887
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:03,300
solution. 
So, I mean, it's doesn't make 

888
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:06,400
sense. 
It needs a different solution. 

889
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,200
Run. 
One thing I also wanted to touch

890
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,100
on is you know, we have I guess 
we have, you know, different 

891
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:17,500
countries. 
Take very Divergent, stances 

892
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:19,100
towards crypto and crypto 
regulation. 

893
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,600
You have out. 
The extreme cases of sort of 

894
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,000
all. 
We like Banning this thing, then

895
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,900
you have, you know, something 
like your which is well, I guess

896
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:34,000
a little bit open still, but 
tends to be on that, you know, 

897
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,400
not so friendly side and then 
You have other countries, right?

898
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,800
I mean, I think we've all seen 
the headlines Riders. 

899
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,900
El Salvador, you know, declaring
Bitcoin legal tender. 

900
00:52:44,500 --> 00:52:48,100
I think there was an accountant 
in Africa, Central African 

901
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:52,600
Republic, doing the same thing, 
just recently and then of course

902
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,800
you have other countries that 
have, you know, try to create 

903
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,100
regulatory environments attract 
crypto. 

904
00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:01,500
Now that that has existed for a 
while as well. 

905
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,800
You know, multi-tone point was 
one of those you have a bunch of

906
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,500
different places. 
Now you have new ones like UAE. 

907
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:14,400
I think which one of those are 
actually going to be the ones 

908
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,600
that like, you know, work in the
long run, I guess is to be seen,

909
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:23,700
but I'm curious like, how do you
think of this this factor of, 

910
00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:29,300
you know, different nation 
states competing on this 

911
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:35,700
regulatory playing field. 
It is very interesting because 

912
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:41,900
it's so many developments in 
parallel, which is you know, on 

913
00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:45,100
the geopolitical stage. 
Now with also the Ukraine and 

914
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:47,900
Russia conflict which had a big 
impact already in Europe on 

915
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:54,900
crypto regulation. 
And you know, either by really 

916
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,800
Expedia Ting, for example, the 
TFR which became his wallet ban 

917
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,300
regulation massively it would 
have actually happened in the 

918
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:05,400
few months. 
But that you speed hated it 

919
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,500
because they were like, oh my 
God, Russian oligarchs are using

920
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:11,400
crypto to as vet sanctions 
which. 

921
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,000
Again, there is no data for 
this. 

922
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,000
It's actually not true. 
But they've been told there's 

923
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,700
repeatedly by by people who just
want such a strict crypto 

924
00:54:20,700 --> 00:54:22,700
regulation. 
And so, that's it. 

925
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:25,800
So what do you think about 
those, those, you know, 

926
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:31,000
countries and and the 
competition I think geopolitics 

927
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,400
is, you know, kind of one of 
those big topics of the 21st 

928
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,200
century again, suddenly and 
nobody maybe really expected it,

929
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:44,600
but it makes total sense. 
And what's happening in parallel

930
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,500
on the digital realm is, you 
know, the emergence of crypto. 

931
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:50,100
Crypto acids. 
There are people again. 

932
00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:53,700
Now, talking about digital 
nation states, you know, back in

933
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:55,500
2014. 
When you see room did, it's icy.

934
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:58,300
Remember, it was already then 
they were projects that we're 

935
00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:00,100
creating digital nation states 
on blockchain. 

936
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:03,400
So it's all kind of repeating 
and repeating until it. 

937
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,500
She finds yeah, maybe product 
Market fit, so to speak like 

938
00:55:06,500 --> 00:55:11,300
dials and are now. 
And so I think we're seeing just

939
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:15,500
within a branch of the, of the 
Multiverse, you know, of of all 

940
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:18,700
possible Futures. 
We could have been in where, I 

941
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:21,100
think a lot of crazy things are 
going to happen in the next 20 

942
00:55:21,100 --> 00:55:24,800
years, and as Salvador using 
making crypto legal tender, as 

943
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,700
the first country on Earth. 
And now other countries, 

944
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:30,700
following I think is, you know, 
looking back somewhat a natural 

945
00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:32,300
move, that could have been 
expected. 

946
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:34,500
But of course, then You know, 
years ago. 

947
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:36,500
Nobody knew what would come of 
Bitcoin. 

948
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:41,000
The fact that the EU is kind of 
slow in adoption of this and 

949
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,400
then now doing it in a way where
it's, you know, so all 

950
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,600
encompassing and kind of too 
detailed and maybe too obsessed 

951
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,800
with consumer protection. 
It's totally expected that the 

952
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,000
u.s. 
Is really, you know, after some,

953
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:57,000
let's say initial confusion 
around this kind of tuning in on

954
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,800
this. 
And I think now more and more 

955
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,500
kind of somewhat legitimizing 
maybe in Nation from the private

956
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:07,600
sector, like u.s. 
Denominated US dollar. 

957
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,900
Denominated stable coins, you 
know, becoming more and more 

958
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:11,900
legitimate. 
There have been moves like this 

959
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:14,700
this year. 
And last year. 

960
00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:18,500
What China is doing is the most 
opaque to me. 

961
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:21,500
I have to say, I know that in 
India, there is renewed interest

962
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:25,700
in crypto assets. 
You mentioned some African 

963
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:28,200
countries. 
I know that in Australia, they 

964
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,400
have some the community there 
was able to somehow bring this. 

965
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:37,700
The idea of a law for dolls. 
Through the highs, regulator 

966
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:41,400
somehow know, there is a law in 
effort of drafting a product. 

967
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,200
The first reel lawn down is not 
this kind of fake stuff from 

968
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,100
Wyoming or whatever. 
They did some kind of Dow L NC, 

969
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:52,200
but the real dialogue with, you 
know, really addressing those 

970
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,100
questions of decentralized, 
governance of that's in 

971
00:56:54,100 --> 00:57:00,000
Australia, Australia, and it's 
going, or it's based on the work

972
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,700
of the koala group around 
Primavera who made this Dow 

973
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:05,600
model law and they've used parts
of this. 

974
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,400
Is now successfully. 
It seems so you know, it's 

975
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,900
really everybody. 
Somehow is moving somewhere. 

976
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:17,500
Geopolitics has become very 
complex. 

977
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,800
We also see corporations 
stepping into this kind of more 

978
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,000
and more nation-state like 
Behavior almost you could say, 

979
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,000
you know, like Facebook, 
building, the matter versus to 

980
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,400
me. 
You're very obviously, Mark 

981
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,500
Zuckerberg is continuation of, 
you know, world domination 

982
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,900
there. 
You know, companies like Amazon,

983
00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:41,000
which have such a global scale. 
We don't even know they run the 

984
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,100
internet. 
Effectively. 

985
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,700
There are others, you know, 
Microsoft that the level of 

986
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:51,200
intelligence they have and so, 
you know, it's a crazy future, 

987
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:56,800
nothing in a sense, seems 
certain anymore and I think 

988
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,400
crypto has a chance to establish
itself. 

989
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,400
Also among those big. 
Powers. 

990
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,200
Big forces as a stakeholder on 
the table and I think it's 

991
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:08,700
really important that as a 
crypto Community. 

992
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,600
We retain those original values,
you know, that that were 

993
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,700
important to us before all the 
money came in. 

994
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:17,800
And I think we're now at the 
point where we're in this phase 

995
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,800
3 institution building. 
Well, I see a lot of kind of, 

996
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,400
oh, geez, you know, people from 
the early days kind of come 

997
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,500
back, you know, they don't care 
about any of these that much 

998
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:31,600
maybe, but they care about kind 
of there is this Renewed Energy.

999
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,900
I feel that cryptos really 
moving into new, you know, new 

1000
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:40,800
plateau. 
And so, the regulation that is 

1001
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,700
happening is relevant. 
I see it mostly going into 

1002
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:46,700
positive. 
If we don't look at Europe, it's

1003
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:49,800
mostly positive. 
I also see the UK playing a 

1004
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,000
super important role. 
Now, with them being outside of 

1005
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,000
the EU and kind of having to 
prove that. 

1006
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,800
This was a good idea to their 
own people. 

1007
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,100
And I think they will become 
very crypto friendly for 

1008
00:58:59,100 --> 00:59:04,800
example, so, Yeah, that's kind 
of my big picture view, maybe on

1009
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,000
this. 
Is there one way or one 

1010
00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:12,300
question, around this discussion
that has been on my mind, quite 

1011
00:59:12,300 --> 00:59:16,000
a bit. 
So I you know, many people have 

1012
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,800
probably heard of this book 
called The Sovereign Individual 

1013
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,400
Services book in the written in 
the 90s that was actually 

1014
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,500
predicting a lot of the things 
predicting dolls. 

1015
00:59:26,500 --> 00:59:30,400
Predicting, you know digital 
currencies, that would be 

1016
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,800
privately issued by like, lots 
of different people. 

1017
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:37,200
So, like incredibly prescient. 
Unlike so many different levels,

1018
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,000
but and you know, they they were
like, okay do we, you know, 

1019
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,200
technology is going to bring all
those things and they're 

1020
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,800
basically write about so many 
things. 

1021
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:50,200
Now, one thing they also 
predicted which has not happened

1022
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,600
yet, is that they predicted 
there would be many more Nations

1023
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:57,400
and that kind of, you know, that
you'd have this erosion of the 

1024
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,800
power of, you know, large nation
states and that would cause this

1025
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,300
kind of like splintering up a 
large, you know. 

1026
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:08,100
Which countries and Dane, you 
know, you'd have kind of much 

1027
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:12,800
more of this, I guess ability. 
Also to like innovate right on 

1028
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:14,600
that level. 
Like if somebody can go and 

1029
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,300
create a new country with like a
new Constitution and you 

1030
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,800
approach a new way of thinking, 
which is pretty much impossible 

1031
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,100
today. 
So that that's that's always 

1032
01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:27,200
like, for me, that's like one of
my big questions. 

1033
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:32,000
Is this gonna happen? 
Like I do right now, I think in 

1034
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,200
a way that nobody expects, you 
know, I think in a way that 

1035
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,000
nobody But expects in the sense 
that we just like Bitcoin made 

1036
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,700
us question. 
What actually is money and nft 

1037
01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:43,600
has made us question. 
What actually is Art? 

1038
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:49,000
You know, I think dolls or 
whatever comes afterwards will 

1039
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,600
make us wonder what is actually 
in nation-state. 

1040
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,400
You know, what is, actually this
country? 

1041
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:58,000
What is it actually, giving me, 
you know, and one of the reasons

1042
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,200
why an F Keys could, you know, 
take off now. 

1043
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,300
That much, I think it's just 
because people culturally value,

1044
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:09,100
Information and artifacts so 
much more now than it did 10 

1045
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:12,300
years ago. 
And so, you know, more and more 

1046
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:15,700
whatever resources that you 
know, nation states of today 

1047
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,900
that they govern just people 
don't care about anymore. 

1048
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:22,800
You know, it's like in the old 
days governments could 

1049
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:28,800
basically, you know, enslave you
as a yeah working man or woman 

1050
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,800
if you wanted to own a car 
because you know, you needed a 

1051
01:01:31,808 --> 01:01:35,700
credit and then you you needed a
job to get to Credit. 

1052
01:01:35,700 --> 01:01:38,500
And then somehow you end up 
being, you know, a taxpayer 

1053
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,900
today, just nobody wants a car 
anymore, you know, and it's kind

1054
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:43,700
of like that's, it's in the 
sense. 

1055
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:47,800
This what happening? 
And I think we may very well be 

1056
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,100
looking at a lot of new, you 
know, Nations or sinks that call

1057
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:54,900
themselves Nations, but they 
will not have physical land to 

1058
01:01:54,900 --> 01:01:57,200
speak of. 
They may, you know, they may buy

1059
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,000
property, you know, we healed 
our house. 

1060
01:02:00,100 --> 01:02:03,800
We have crypto castles. 
We have big land being bought by

1061
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,700
crypto millionaires or whatever.
So The certainly happening, but 

1062
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:09,100
this will not be Sovereign land.
This would be, you know, 

1063
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,500
whatever. 
It's some big nation states and 

1064
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:18,600
and but when it comes to paying,
you know, Universal basic 

1065
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,200
income, health insurance, you 
know, retirement. 

1066
01:02:23,100 --> 01:02:26,300
I don't know, family support. 
I think all those payments could

1067
01:02:26,300 --> 01:02:29,400
in the will in the future come 
from totally different networks,

1068
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,200
and those networks were not be 
government nation-states anymore

1069
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,100
with that, you know, shit coins,
but it's going to be I don't 

1070
01:02:36,100 --> 01:02:39,200
know digital communities of 
people believing in different 

1071
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,700
things and this is going to be 
possible because I don't know if

1072
01:02:42,700 --> 01:02:45,200
that's what technology seems to 
allow us to. 

1073
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,300
That's kind of a trend that I 
see coming. 

1074
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:52,100
If you want to call those 
things, digital nation states. 

1075
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,800
I don't know. 
I'm, you know, and if you look 

1076
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,600
at kind of the state of medicine
and the fact that we don't have 

1077
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,600
longevity at, so people still 
die, you know, this whole nation

1078
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,300
state game could be over much 
sooner than we believe because 

1079
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:10,300
You know, everybody at least, 
you know, at around my age have 

1080
01:03:10,300 --> 01:03:14,000
to meet as someone who cares 
about nation states as a thing. 

1081
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,400
I think this is over, you know, 
this is, you know, something 

1082
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,700
that our parents still need as a
crutch to understand the world, 

1083
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:23,600
but I think all of us, we don't 
even really need it anymore. 

1084
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:28,000
I mean, of course, if they would
just be gone now, we would be it

1085
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,100
would be bad surprise, but I 
think kind of slowly moving 

1086
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:33,100
towards an understanding of the 
world where we kind of 

1087
01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:38,600
transcending this. 
Really weird Antiquated idea of 

1088
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,700
how the world is, you know, with
borders and so on. 

1089
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:45,300
And so, this whole Ukraine 
Russia will, I think every young

1090
01:03:45,300 --> 01:03:50,900
person is like, what war, you 
know, shooting each other over 

1091
01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:54,300
borders in the in 2022, is this 
real? 

1092
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,000
And so I really feel this is, 
you know, our parents generation

1093
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,700
going out with a bang and it's 
like, okay, you know, goodbye. 

1094
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:08,200
Let us run this world. 
He now so that's you know, my 

1095
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,800
big Vision made me on this. 
Okay? 

1096
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,600
Okay. 
Well that was beautiful way to 

1097
01:04:15,700 --> 01:04:18,400
to wrap this up, if it with a 
rally cry to the 

1098
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:23,800
revolutionaries. 
Thanks so much for in. 

1099
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,300
It was a pleasure to have you 
on. 

1100
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,800
I've been excited about, you 
know, the work you're doing 

1101
01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:32,700
right? 
Because I guess they still that 

1102
01:04:32,700 --> 01:04:34,500
kind of. 
I mean, it's interesting because

1103
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:38,200
you Talking about. 
Okay, you know this leaving 

1104
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,600
these old structures behind but 
then of course you are also very

1105
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,200
much at that intersection, 
right? 

1106
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:49,000
And trying to actually find ways
that, you know, maybe crypto 

1107
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:53,100
can, you know, coexist Thrive 
within the existing structure? 

1108
01:04:53,100 --> 01:04:55,900
So I think that's like, you 
know, super important. 

1109
01:04:55,900 --> 01:04:58,600
And I'm really excited about the
work you're doing there and to 

1110
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,800
see what will come out of it. 
Thanks so much Brian. 

1111
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,800
It was a real pleasure. 
And I hope to see you again in 

1112
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,200
six years on this podcast to 
Rebecca. 

1113
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,200
Yes, absolutely. 
Thanks so much for watching and 

1114
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,800
thanks for listeners for tuning 
in and we look forward to seeing

1115
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,700
you next week. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1116
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:20,100
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1117
01:05:20,100 --> 01:05:22,100
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You can find And subscribe to 

1118
01:05:22,100 --> 01:05:25,900
the show on iTunes Spotify, 
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1119
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:28,300
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And if you have a Google home or

1120
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:31,100
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1121
01:05:31,100 --> 01:05:34,200
the epicenter podcast. 
Go to epicenter, .t V /, 

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subscribe for a full list of 
places where you can watch and 

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listen, while you're there, be 
sure to sign up for the 

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newsletter. 
So you get new episodes in your 

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inbox as they're released. 
If you want to interact with us 

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guests or other podcast 
listeners, you can follow Oh us 

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on Twitter, and please leave us 
a review on iTunes. 

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It helps people find the show 
and we're always happy to read 

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them with. 
Thanks so much and we look 

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forward to being back next week.