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Welcome to epicenter, patrollers
talked about the Technologies 

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projects and people driving 
decentralisation and the 

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blockchain revolution. 
I'm suggesting with Joe and I'm 

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here with Felix Couch. 
Today, we're speaking with 

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Rebecca allow she is the 
co-founder and CEO of saga. 

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It's a project that's It seeks 
to enable developers to 

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seamlessly provision, their own 
dedicated application, specific 

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blockchains. 
So before we talk to Rebecca, 

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wallet that supports ledger so 
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Rebecca, thanks for joining us 
on the podcast today. 

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Thanks so much for having me 
Sebastian, Felix is great to see

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you guys. 
Epicenter is regular listening 

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for the entire team at Saga so 
really appreciate you having me 

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on nice. 
Well well I hope I hope you know

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you can you can return the favor
by teaching us a few things 

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today. 
Absolutely love to learn more 

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about Saga and what you guys are
building and I think it's for me

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it's an interesting also thought
experiment to try to figure out 

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where this sits in the Our app 
chain, interesting, security, 

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modular chain mesh Network 
thesis, you know, there are a 

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lot of products right now that 
are trying to implement 

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different security models. 
And, you know, it's interesting 

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to try to reason about where 
they fit in the broader 

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landscape before we do that 
though. 

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Please tell us a little bit 
about your background where you 

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came from and how you came to be
the CEO at Saga? 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
I'm happy to dive into all those

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topics. 
That's what we spend all of our 

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time thinking about, it's all 
good. 

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Oh, so no shortage of things to 
discuss there, but in terms of 

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my background, how I found my 
way to Saga. 

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So this was late 2021 and I'll 
tell you about my journey before

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then. 
So I was actually my second 

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crypto startup. 
My first one was called steel 

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chain. 
Co-founder there was sake, man, 

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who's one of the original 
Builders and Cosmos, we've known

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each other a long time and 
scutum was focused more on the 

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defy space. 
So as providing short-term 

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liquidity to a small 
medium-sized businesses and I 

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was co founder CEO 0. 
Therefore Years. 

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Grew the platform to about 5 
billion in annual volume and 

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early 2021. 
I started to think to myself, 

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okay, I've been here for years, 
the project is on its way. 

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I would love to see if there is 
a new adventure and I've always 

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been involved in politics so I 
was part of both the Clinton and

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B in presidential campaigns, 
both in 2016 and 2020 and in 

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2020 we actually won. 
So I began to think to myself 

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maybe I should go into into 
service. 

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Us and joined the administration
for a little bit. 

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So I actually went to d.c. for a
few months in early 2021 and 

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went through the interview 
process, waiting for nomination.

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But I quickly realized through 
that process, that I'm not 

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really suited for federal 
bureaucracy, no surprise. 

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After having done startups for a
long time. 

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So I called up sake and say, 
hey, I think I'd like to stay in

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crypto so he introduced me to 
our co-founding team at Saga, 

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because we all believed that. 
Or as needed an easier time. 

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Basically, a building in web 
three that they didn't have the 

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full tool set that obviously web
developers have, which has been 

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built up over several decades so
no surprise there. 

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But we felt that there was much 
easier ways that we could make 

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developers on ramp onto with 
three in a much faster and 

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convenient manner. 
So that's how we, that's how we 

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co-founded Saga. 
But my first started ever was an

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AI actually. 
So it's interesting to see a 

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comeback as a big Trend. 
So it was a company called 

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quality. 
See, I was part of the early 

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team. 
They're headed a business 

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development, founded and ran 
their Asia operations and we got

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that cry SoftBank within a year 
and a half. 

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So I got two uniform status 
pretty quickly, but then I fell 

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in love with crypto and as it Ed
to do my own startup. 

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I started my career as a 
corporate lawyer actually. 

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Let's the last piece of this. 
I was a lawyer for about 56 

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years before jumping into into 
startups full-time. 

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But yeah, that's how I found 
myself at Saga and it's been 

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about a year now that Been 
hacking away at this project. 

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Cool. 
What was this other project you 

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did with exact e scue chain? 
It's like yeah chain it's so 

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it's SKU chain and it's the name
is the play out. 

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The fact that a lot of the 
business that we did actually 

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involve supply chain so it 
involved the movement of goods. 

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And oftentimes when these 
businesses are looking for 

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short-term liquidity, what they 
really want is to optimize their

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cash flow cycle. 
So, if they are producing Parts,

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they Want to expend that cost 
after they've already taken 

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money in and that's the Gap that
needs to be financed. 

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So, yeah, that was the, the 
primary use case that we were 

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going after. 
Okay, interesting. 

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Well yeah, let's let's talk 
about and let's move into Saga 

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me. 
How did this journey from 

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skewed? 
Chain merge into, you know, 

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building Saga. 
What did you take away from that

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experience that allowed you to 
you know have sort of better 

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grasp of what the problem space 
was that Saga is is now 

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addressing Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

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So Zaki. 
And I so we rescue chain 

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together for for a few years, 
but then sake stopped out to 

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start building Cosmos. 
And so I've been aware of Cosmos

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for a very long time and knew 
the thesis behind it, I tracked 

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their major Milestone. 
So when the SDK was launched 

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also an IBC was released. 
So I knew that this was a really

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amazing protocol, really great 
developer mind share as well. 

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I guess see how popular it is 
with engineers. 

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So definitely been a big fan of 
Cosmos for a long time. 

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What we realized is you chain 
was, you know, SQ chain is, you 

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can tell from how I'm 
describing. 

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It was a defy application. 
So we sat at the application 

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Level but what we discovered 
quickly is, you know, the 

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infrastructure, the underlying 
infrastructure for web three 

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really, isn't there yet to 
support the full functionality 

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and growth of a really great 
application. 

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So, with most of the 
infrastructure prior to Kozma 

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strains really proliferating 
you're looking at model with a 

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chain. 
So things like if you're in for 

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instance classic example. 
Falana Etc. 

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So really these chain side 
mandated hind variable Gatsby's 

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for their end users. 
There was congestion because 

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you're sharing the walk space 
with all these applications that

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really don't have anything to do
with you. 

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And ultimately the chain 
environment is controlled by 

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somebody else, it's controlled 
by the core team by Foundation. 

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If anything should go wrong with
the chain. 

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There's nothing that you can 
personally do about it. 

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So, The way I'm describing all 
these different issues. 

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It came to the conclusion as you
change that, cause us solves a 

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lot of this. 
But Cosmos opens up a whole host

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of other problems, which is how 
do you get onto your own chain. 

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That is a big lift for most 
projects out there for most 

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individual developers out there.
It's a non-starter. 

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So how do we get all the 
benefits of giving people their 

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dedicated block space. 
But he's some of the lift and 

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all the co-founders that Saga, 
including Jin Kwon former 

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executive at Enderman and in our
chief strategy officer Jake 

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mcdorman, who is our co-founder 
sitio designed the entire system

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Bogdan who's our co-founder and 
VP of engineering, we all felt 

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the same way that it was time 
that development environments in

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web three were as easy to use as
development environments in web 

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to and that is what the Saga 
protocol reflects. 

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Right. 
So I guess you already 

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mentioning Cosmos and I guess 
Saga is sort of also part of the

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cosmos ecosystem. 
Maybe can you sort of explain to

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us a little bit more? 
Like how what Saga actually 

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does? 
And I guess also how it 

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leverages Cosmos in away? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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So Saga, the easiest way to 
think of saga is we are chained 

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to launch chains. 
So we are a layer one protocol 

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in our own, right? 
So we are our own chain but the 

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whole purpose of this chain is 
to launch other chains. 

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So how it works for a developer 
flow is usually the developer 

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will deploy a smart contract or 
an application into a virtual 

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machine environment. 
And the reason why we require 

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the VM is the whole system is 
permission list so you can 

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deploy anything you want onto a 
dedicated chain. 

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However, that poses a security 
risk to the rest of the system. 

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And so we asked developers to 
deploy in a VM because that is a

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controlled environment for them 
usually makes it easier for 

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their development but then on 
our site is a security layer 

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between their application and 
the rest of the system. 

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So the developer will take this 
p.m. and through command line, 

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they're able to automatically, 
deploy it onto that dedicated 

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chain, which we call a chain 
lives. 

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Now, how do we achieve that? 
It's through, entertain 

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security. 
So we are Cosmos change. 

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Use the cosmos SDK and within 
that interchange. 

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Security is one of the newer 
features. 

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So, entertained security and its
current iteration what it does, 

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is it allows one change 
replicated security model onto 

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another chain. 
And so we have The Saga of 

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maenette secured by a set of 
validators, whatever developer 

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requested chain lit. 
Then that seems that a validator

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is going to fire up that chain 
lid, it has and has the exact 

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same security model as The Saga 
maenette. 

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It is secured by the same. 
Set of alligators. 

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And that's, that's how we're 
able to proliferate these chain.

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Let's so that is how the Saga 
protocol actually works. 

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And we can go deeper into why we
think gaming entertainment as 

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the primary use case, and how 
we've been working with other 

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providers of obtained, side 
chains, roll ups, Etc, but at a 

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base level, that's how the Saga 
system operates. 

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So can you describe this chain, 
let Concepts OU, you described 

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as a VM, but I think most people
are familiar. 

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Interesting security. 
The security, actually, secures 

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a sovereign chain, well, 
Sovereign to the extent that, 

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you know, there are some 
parameters that are still left 

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to the the validators of the of 
the of the parent chain, or the 

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provider chain, but in the 
concept of a VM, it's a bit. 

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It's yeah, it's a bit of a New 
Concept to say that validators 

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would implicitly secure that VM 
and that is how is it different 

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from just running a kazim? 
Awesome Contracting. 

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Also, is that a thousand wasn't 
VM? 

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Or is it different VM? 
Yeah, so many questions. 

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So what the validators are doing
is they're taking that smart 

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contract or application and then
putting it onto its own 

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dedicated chain. 
So I chained like is a a chain 

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and its own right. 
The main difference between a 

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chain ledge and a fully 
Sovereign chain is that there is

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00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:05,300
no staking token so because you 
are borrowing this, well you're 

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not borrowing, you are 
replicating, the security model 

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from The Saga maenette, the 
token that secures the entire 

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system is the Saga token and so 
there's no need Need for this 

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project to have its own staking 
token. 

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00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,000
You can have your own native 
token. 

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That's part of our joking. 
Economics. 

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00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:25,100
However, you don't need a 
staking token, which means that 

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in addition to not having that 
that token. 

227
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,200
You also don't automatically 
have governance so you can have 

228
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,000
governance if you elect it but 
it's not just a matter of 

229
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,100
running the chain. 
So those are the main 

230
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,900
differences between a chain 
ledge and a fully Sovereign 

231
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,000
chain. 
But when a developer brings an 

232
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,600
application System. 
So it may be contained within a 

233
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,300
virtual machine environment. 
But what they're being deployed 

234
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:54,500
on is is a chain. 
And so the validators are 

235
00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,000
securing that chain. 
The validators don't need to 

236
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,600
think about what the actual VM 
is or what the application is, 

237
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,600
or they don't need to concern 
themselves with that. 

238
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:07,000
It's a fully automated process 
that is orchestrated by our Saga

239
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,500
me, net. 
Such that. 

240
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000
When a developer asks for a 
chain ledge provided that they 

241
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,400
have enough Saga tokens to pay 
for that chain, but to be alive.

242
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,000
They get that change lives. 
So that's, that's the flow. 

243
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,100
The VM is really just to ensure 
that there's a security layer 

244
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:26,600
between whatever the developers 
deploying and the rest of our 

245
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,800
system. 
The first kind of VM that we 

246
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,600
support is the ebm because we 
see how popular it is in what, 

247
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,100
three in general. 
But our goal is to be the M 

248
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:39,200
agnostic. 
So cause Mausam is the next kind

249
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,100
of beyond that will support 
because it's very popular within

250
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:46,400
the cosmos ecosystem, we have 
people building On Saga already 

251
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400
who are working on Solana BM. 
That's compatible with tender 

252
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,800
moment, a movie. 
Mm as well. 

253
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,000
That's becoming more popular in 
gaming and entertainment. 

254
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,500
I think a gorik has a JavaScript
p.m. that's ready to use. 

255
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:01,900
So our goal is to give 
developers a choice, you know, 

256
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:03,600
whatever development 
environment, you're most 

257
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,400
comfortable with go ahead and 
work within that. 

258
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,800
And then we'll take care of the 
rest. 

259
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,600
In terms of deploying, you onto 
a chain Yeah, I think what was 

260
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,600
interesting, like you just 
mentioned that the developers 

261
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,900
pay for the chain LEDs in Saga 
tokens, I guess. 

262
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,100
Can you expand a bit? 
How that works? 

263
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:23,100
I guess. 
Yeah, generally we have I guess 

264
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:26,900
totin like the application 
specific trait has their token 

265
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:30,400
gifts taking rewards but I 
assume in this case, somewhat 

266
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,700
different. 
So I guess that's that would be 

267
00:14:31,708 --> 00:14:32,900
interesting to hear how that 
works. 

268
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,500
Yeah, yeah. 
So we have a two-tier token 

269
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,200
structure. 
We think that one of the 

270
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,400
stranger parts of web three. 
Is that when you have a layer 

271
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,600
one protocol the fees, the 
transaction fees for operating 

272
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,000
on that protocol are given 
directly to the end user. 

273
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,500
So the end users have to pay for
the infrastructure costs and 

274
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:53,800
they are aware of what those 
infrastructure costs are. 

275
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,600
That is not a great user 
experience. 

276
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,100
And certainly when you start to 
get into things like gaming and 

277
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:02,900
entertainment, we're honestly 
the the payment part is kind of 

278
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:04,500
a nuisance. 
You just want to play the game 

279
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:07,400
and have fun. 
It becomes something that you 

280
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,300
have to do away with. 
So, how our system works is 

281
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,900
there's a saga token in 
Saugatuck and secures the entire

282
00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,100
system and that is what all the 
inflation is taking. 

283
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:21,700
And the entire economy is based 
off of The Saga, token is only 

284
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:26,300
used to pay for the Chain LED so
think of it like an AWS instance

285
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,900
in a way. 
So we treat the The Saga Gene, 

286
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:32,900
let's like those instances. 
And in the same way, for all of 

287
00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:36,400
you who are developing an We 
understand that you pay for 

288
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,200
those instances to stay alive 
every month or so, you 

289
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,400
understand what that cost is as 
long as you pay that that cost 

290
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,500
then then Amazon will keep those
boxes alive for you. 

291
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,600
So same idea with us, the 
developer has to have a certain 

292
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,000
amount of saga tokens in an 
escrow account. 

293
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,400
Basically, it's our feet 
deposit, and for every month 

294
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,100
that they're keeping the Chain 
little, I've then we're going to

295
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,700
be depleting Saga tokens from 
that fee deposit. 

296
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,300
Now, that's Metal directly 
between us and the developer on 

297
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,200
the front end. 
We are invisible as long as the 

298
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,500
developer wants us to be. 
So for most developers, they 

299
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:16,200
want to offer their applications
for free actually and then 

300
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,900
figure out what the monetization
model is going to be. 

301
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:20,800
Some of them will just charge 
for in-game assets. 

302
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:23,300
Some of them will have their own
native token, they want their 

303
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,200
own token, which is totally 
fine. 

304
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,700
Some of them will have users 
coming from other communities. 

305
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:31,000
So they're coming from aetherium
where the used to being on 

306
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,100
Solana for instance and then 
they'll charge Gatsby's in. 

307
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:36,700
That native token instead. 
So they'll be charging gasps and

308
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:39,300
he's worse, all it doesn't 
matter to us. 

309
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,200
Everything that a developer 
earns from their application, 

310
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,700
goes into a wallet that is 
controlled entirely by them. 

311
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,300
So we don't see any of that. 
We don't interfere with it. 

312
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,400
All we care about is that the 
developer continues to pay the 

313
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,400
Saga targets necessary to keep 
their chain. 

314
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,900
Let's alive. 
This is really interesting 

315
00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,700
because you know what this 
condos up is conversations with 

316
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:05,000
J-Kwon around, had a 2.0. 
Yeah, and I don't know if you 

317
00:17:05,008 --> 00:17:11,099
guys follow that and there was 
some conversation around around 

318
00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:16,599
having chains that were using 
interesting security aligned on 

319
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:20,300
protocol economics. 
Now, they're here, we were the, 

320
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,599
what was proposed as a to token 
system, where Adam would secure 

321
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,500
the cosmos. 
Annette and then there would be 

322
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:30,600
this second token. 
This Photon token, that would be

323
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:38,100
the payment token by which 
Supply Chains would would pay 

324
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,500
for security. 
And there was this kind of burn 

325
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:45,800
mechanism that allowed consumer 
chains to to to to swap Adam for

326
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,300
this token. 
It seems very similar. 

327
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:51,300
There is there's there's only 
one token here instead of to 

328
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,800
wonder if any of this research 
or sorry, if the token Comics 

329
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:00,400
come from sort of similar 
discussions and research. 

330
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,500
That had been actually Sunny 
wrote a paper about this whole 

331
00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,500
token model. 
If you go back and look at like 

332
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:13,000
the cosmos GitHub, you'll find 
this paper that he wrote in 2017

333
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,300
or something about this. 
Yeah curious. 

334
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,600
Where that we're those were 
those ideas came from if they 

335
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,500
have similar seeds. 
Yeah, so I think for all of us 

336
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:26,100
came to similar conclusions, but
from very different starting In 

337
00:18:26,108 --> 00:18:29,500
places. 
So I think for Adam 2.0 the 

338
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:33,200
well, the whole idea of the 
project is a, how do we elect? 

339
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,300
Well, they also wanted more 
people to be building in Cosmos,

340
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:39,300
but they also wanted to find use
cases for the Hub. 

341
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,700
And they definitely wanted to 
ensure the health of the atom 

342
00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:43,600
token. 
So that's the angle that they 

343
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,200
came from. 
And then for Sonny, I actually 

344
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,100
have not read that paper but I'd
be very curious to hear what the

345
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:52,400
motivation was for thinking 
about a two-tier token 

346
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,500
structure. 
I think for us it was all about 

347
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:58,000
usability at the end of the We 
just we don't think that most 

348
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,700
people when they are consuming 
an application that they want to

349
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:06,300
deal with more than one to meet 
a handful of tokens at the most 

350
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,200
a lot of people who are coming 
into this space and really 

351
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,700
taking advantage of and liking 
web three applications for the 

352
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,900
first time you know they're not 
going to have a wallet that 

353
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,400
holds like lots and lots of 
assets and they probably will 

354
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,900
never want to get there and so 
our thinking was okay, how do we

355
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:25,900
make it easier for them? 
But nevertheless, a crude value.

356
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,400
To to our system and make sure 
that all the Saga remains secure

357
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,700
are so we came at it from more 
of a usability perspective, but 

358
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:38,000
I will say that so are talking 
economics approach in general, 

359
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,900
is keep it simple because the 
more bells and whistles that you

360
00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:46,700
put in there for market-making 
or you know, levers for ensuring

361
00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:48,500
the health of the price of the 
token. 

362
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,300
The the more honestly the more 
traps that there can be for 

363
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,600
things to go wrong and so We 
were thinking, okay we need a 

364
00:19:57,608 --> 00:20:01,300
solid business model which is 
you know how how does the token 

365
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:04,100
get support at well in our 
system the more chain looks 

366
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,900
there are the more buying 
pressure there will be four Saga

367
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,800
and therefore the price will 
continue to be supported that 

368
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,100
way. 
Doing a two-tier token where we 

369
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,300
have two tokens so like an atom 
in a photon. 

370
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:19,500
That's where you start a you 
start to dilute some of the 

371
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:24,300
Valeo and once you implement 
that burn mechanism, I mean 

372
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:27,800
that's the sort of thing where I
think that yeah, people will 

373
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,400
start to play tricks with that 
if you need human intervention 

374
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,600
and that process will then, I 
mean, that opens up a whole 

375
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,400
other can of worms. 
So we we did not. 

376
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,400
Yeah, we didn't want to go down 
that road. 

377
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,800
We came at it thinking, okay? 
This is what the user was 

378
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,600
expecting from what? 
Three applications going 

379
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,800
forward. 
And this is how we can make it 

380
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,700
easier for them to onboard. 
I think the to token system 

381
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:55,200
might be wrong here was in order
to prevent hostile takeover of 

382
00:20:55,700 --> 00:21:01,000
the at As the consumer chain 
Stakes taupe Stakes tokens 

383
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,600
essentially. 
And this may be a little bit 

384
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,500
different here with with Saga, 
but they essentially stake 

385
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:12,500
tokens with the provider chain. 
Validator is the risk of having 

386
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:20,700
Adam accrual at the consumer. 
Chain level was a massive on 

387
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:25,400
staking event that would 
jeopardize the security of the 

388
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,800
chain wear that A chance. 
A provider chain would 

389
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,000
essentially take over governance
or take over, have too much 

390
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,600
power on the concern, on the, on
the provider chain. 

391
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,800
And and so, I think this is 
where the two token model came 

392
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,900
into effect. 
Where essentially, when, when 

393
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:46,400
you start securing at any a 
consumer chain, you you lot, you

394
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,700
lock into this. 
Other token that token and then 

395
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:53,300
there would be mechanisms to 
swap back into Adam. 

396
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:56,400
Originally, I think also, the 
idea was that you couldn't, Hop 

397
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,800
back into Adam once you've went 
into the photon, you couldn't go

398
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,700
back, but then those ideas 
through discussion, right? 

399
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,700
I'm 2.0 and the the 
conversations that were being 

400
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,800
have with Jay was that there 
could be a mechanism to go back 

401
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:13,100
into Adam but with time locks 
and such that, you know, Adam 

402
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:17,600
holders would be able to unstick
if they if they saw that such an

403
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,500
attack was coming. 
But in this case, Chain. 

404
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,100
Let's are not staking any 
tokens. 

405
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:30,300
They are. 
They are needing to acquire your

406
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:33,400
Saga token. 
By some means puts that puts by 

407
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,500
pressure on the Saga token, and 
then they pay validators for of 

408
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:40,200
that security. 
So, there's this constant, the 

409
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,600
economic cycle, there's like a 
velocity of money happening and 

410
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,600
it's in the system at all times.
That's exactly right. 

411
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,100
That's exactly, right. 
So it should not be the case. 

412
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:55,400
That any particular developer 
that has a chain lid is holding 

413
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,700
onto those chain LEDs for a very
long period of time, if not 

414
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,500
indefinitely because they got to
keep the chain let alive. 

415
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,500
So those tokens are going to 
find their way to the validators

416
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,000
every month. 
When we do deplete, that account

417
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,300
of the chain lippies for for the
particular talents that they 

418
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,800
have running the The Saga tokens
are going from the developer to 

419
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,900
the validators now in Terms of, 
you know, staking for, for the 

420
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,900
validators or developers, want 
to stake their Saga and then 

421
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:25,100
just use the rewards from 
staking, to pay for their chain.

422
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,100
Let's, that's also possible. 
But I think the way that we've 

423
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,200
designed the system deliberately
avoids, that particular 

424
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,500
scenario, where someone's just 
going to hang on to this 

425
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:37,400
concentration of economic power.
And then it's kind of like an 

426
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,500
atom bomb that they can well no 
pun intended but an atom bomb 

427
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:42,100
that they can set off at any 
point, right? 

428
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:48,200
So yeah, it's it is meant to 
really encourage Edge, that 

429
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,000
velocity of money. 
Like you mentioned sub. 

430
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,000
Right. 
I think one, one, interesting 

431
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,800
thing, I, it sort of reminds me,
I guess. 

432
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,100
Also, in AWS, you have like 
different instance sister. 

433
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,700
I'd like different sizes. 
Different, like, specs to 

434
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:03,000
challenge. 
Work like that, too. 

435
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,200
Or is any Chain LED like the 
same. 

436
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,900
They are the same. 
They are the same. 

437
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:13,200
So every chain let is the same. 
They are priced the same, but we

438
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,300
do believe in elastic scaling, 
which means that our 

439
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,500
anticipation is that your most 
developers are not just going to

440
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:23,500
have one chain lid. 
So, So when we started off, and 

441
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,800
I think in some ways, the Hub 
still conceiving of it, this 

442
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,200
way, we thought it would be one 
application per chain light. 

443
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,900
So in the true sense of the app 
chain application, specific 

444
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:35,200
chain, but what we've come to 
realize with our system is it is

445
00:24:35,208 --> 00:24:37,800
so much more powerful. 
If we allow it to scale 

446
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,900
elastically, if we allow it to 
scale horizontally. 

447
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:44,500
So what do we mean by that? 
A developer will probably need 

448
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:48,200
at at least three environments. 
So Dev staging and then their 

449
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,000
production environment for the 
actual application on top. 

450
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,400
At once the application starts 
to get appreciable traffic 

451
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,800
through at one chain letters, 
probably not going to be enough,

452
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:59,500
you're going to need multiple. 
So, in order to ensure the same 

453
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,300
level of performance, your knee,
you're going to need to conclude

454
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,000
spill over into additional 
chain. 

455
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,800
That's and that's how we 
encourage the the developers to 

456
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,300
scale. 
And that's why we're not doing, 

457
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:12,300
you know, customized chain. 
Let's where some are bigger 

458
00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:16,000
sizes and others, you're getting
chain lights, and if you need 

459
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,700
more chain, let's than you, you 
can purchase more. 

460
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,700
If you are scaling down your 
application, Or you've put up 

461
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:23,400
too many development 
environments and you need to 

462
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,100
close down a peach. 
And let's that's that's 

463
00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,700
eminently possible as well. 
The goal is to commoditize the 

464
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:32,500
system so that we make it as 
easy and thoughtless, frankly as

465
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,100
possible for developers that 
they need environment to Bill. 

466
00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:36,800
They can pull one up very 
quickly. 

467
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:39,600
Maybe I guess. 
Yeah. 

468
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,100
Now if we think of an 
application that maybe runs on 

469
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:46,100
multiple channels, can you talk 
a little bit about how 

470
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,800
composability would work in such
a system or do you need like 

471
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,400
split apart your application and
certain way that this this model

472
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,300
can work or how the Saga sort of
allow you to do that? 

473
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:04,500
So I'm Saga runs only because I 
DC is available and so you keep 

474
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:06,700
in mind that everything in 
Saugus independent of one 

475
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,700
another. 
So there's a saga maenette and 

476
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,900
then all the socket chain. 
Let's again our chains in their 

477
00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:12,800
own, right? 
So everything is independent of 

478
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,700
each other in order for this 
whole system to work at all. 

479
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:20,200
We need IBC. 
So, the way that the socket may 

480
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,900
not orchestrate these chain, 
let's is Thrive, you see? 

481
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:28,500
So in order to make sure that 
people are Keeping the the chain

482
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:32,400
that's alive according to the 
SLA contract that they are 

483
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,400
paying for the chain LEDs. 
As they need to that the chain 

484
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,000
links are actually being spun up
automatically, all of that's 

485
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,600
coordinated via IV see through 
messaging back and forth between

486
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,500
the chain LEDs and the saga mean
that now the chain, let's also 

487
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,100
have IBC because they're all 
cause they're all Cosmos chains 

488
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:50,500
and their own rights. 
Some, they also communicate with

489
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:55,500
one another and right now, IBC 
as mostly used for the the 

490
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,600
transfer of assets back and 
forth, but I think with 

491
00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:01,000
Entertain accounts. 
We can relax and expand the set 

492
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,200
of messages that can go back and
forth between chains. 

493
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,900
So for composability, it's 
really IBC that were reliant on.

494
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,900
And your website talks about 
this ID, C plus you explain what

495
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,400
that is because I'm not familiar
with this particular premium. 

496
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,900
IBC. 
That you guys are splitting up. 

497
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:28,000
Yeah, yeah, I know it so it's 
not It's not really a premium 

498
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,600
version per se, but it is a 
unique trait of our system. 

499
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,900
I would put it that way. 
And what I bc+ refers to is the 

500
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:41,000
fact that so IBC is needed to, 
to run our system period, the 

501
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,200
communication that happens 
between the chains requires IDC.

502
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,600
But what we realized was okay 
how do we sort of maybe 

503
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,500
streamline this process here for
IBC? 

504
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:55,600
Because usually IBC assumes that
you have two chains that have 

505
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:56,700
nothing. 
To do with one another, the 

506
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:59,000
validators. 
That's a completely different. 

507
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,900
And so you need to like clients 
on either side and then you 

508
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:05,800
achieve IV compatibility in the 
messages. 

509
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,300
Go back and forth for us. 
On the other hand, the validator

510
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:13,200
sets are exactly the same for 
all of the participating parties

511
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:17,500
and so where we are putting 
forth some Innovations and IBC 

512
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:22,000
just to make it run faster and 
hopefully make it run a little 

513
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,800
more cheaply for the validators 
as well because we will require 

514
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,000
them to run re layers. 
Yes. 

515
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:31,600
And so, in order to just make 
the system, much more efficient,

516
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,300
we are going to tweak the 
current iteration of IBC but 

517
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:38,200
whether this can be used for 
other systems. 

518
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,900
I'm not so sure. 
I mean the the main assumption 

519
00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:44,000
here that makes it all work, is 
the fact that we have a common 

520
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,900
validator set across all of our 
chains. 

521
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,600
Right? 
Because with IBC and you are 

522
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,000
assuming different security 
models between chains. 

523
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:57,700
This is why you need the light 
clients to verify the other 

524
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:00,700
chain here. 
Since all the chain, let's are 

525
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:06,300
using the same security model 
that that overhead isn't 

526
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,700
necessarily required. 
I guess this would also be the 

527
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:15,800
case for ICS consumer, chains 
that are leveraging. 

528
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:21,500
The Entire Cosmos Hub, active 
set, and are not leveraging 

529
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:26,100
their own validators. 
I guess that's IB IC s 1 or 

530
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:29,600
whichever version at the first 
version, but that starts to 

531
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,500
break apart. 
Once you have different security

532
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:37,100
Malin different security over 
for different chains. 

533
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,500
Uh-huh. 
That's right. 

534
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:42,400
That's right. 
How do you maintain then IVC 

535
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,700
compatibility with other IVC 
change? 

536
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:51,300
There's this is IBC here because
I mean it sounds like you don't 

537
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:53,800
really need IBC. 
You might need parts of it but 

538
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,000
like the IBC protocol as a whole
you don't really need much. 

539
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000
I guess you need IV. 
C 1, any of the chain. 

540
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Let's wants to talk with sales 
Moses or some other external 

541
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,500
chain. 
Yeah, that's exactly right. 

542
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:11,800
I think we want to preserve IVC 
in its current iteration as much

543
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,300
as possible but just making 
optimizations for the fact that 

544
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:16,200
way the same validators that 
across all chains. 

545
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:19,800
Because we do anticipate that, 
that will happen very quickly 

546
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,100
that our chain, let's are going 
to talk to other chains within 

547
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:27,000
the cosmos ecosystem and then we
see also. 

548
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,700
And this is also a bet on IBC 
itself as a messaging standard 

549
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:34,600
that will be applied across more
blockchain ecosystems. 

550
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,200
So we I hope that other 
ecosystems like an avalanche, 

551
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,000
for instance, will take of IBC. 
And then at that point, if we 

552
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,800
have sort of optimized ourselves
out of compatibility there, 

553
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,500
that's not great. 
So we want to make sure that 

554
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:49,900
we're still working with those 
future iterations. 

555
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:52,400
And then for some of the larger 
Partnerships that we have 

556
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,400
actually for people outside of 
the cosmos chain environment and

557
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,700
it is reliant on IVC 
specifically. 

558
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:04,700
So, yeah, any anything that we 
do has to remain compatible with

559
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:06,900
how others are using IBC at the 
moment. 

560
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,700
Maybe just one other question 
here on this because I realized 

561
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:14,800
it's not super clear to me a 
butt like this chain. 

562
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Lit it in the in the in a 
blockchain stack of execution, 

563
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,400
settlement data, availability, 
consensus and data. 

564
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,700
Availability, what parts of that
Arc are the chain-link maze. 

565
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:29,400
It's just six. 
Is it just settlement and 

566
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,900
execution? 
I'll far also know they're, 

567
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,700
they're all consensus. 
Is that okay? 

568
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,200
So what the consensus is 
happening on the Saga chain, 

569
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,700
this is where Yeah, consensus 
happening on on each of the 

570
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:43,700
individual chain lights. 
Yeah, the saga mean that exists 

571
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:46,800
to orchestrate. 
So, to stand up, make sure that 

572
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,200
the validators are behaving 
because in an interchange 

573
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,900
security system, how it all 
stays together is, if a 

574
00:31:51,908 --> 00:31:57,700
validator is not not behaving on
any particular chain ledge. 

575
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:01,400
Then according to the mechanisms
of the protocol to get flashed 

576
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,900
and that slashing really happens
on the Saga of meat net. 

577
00:32:03,900 --> 00:32:06,800
So Saga, Mina is really there as
an administrator. 

578
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,000
It is not Out there for 
consensus or settlement, all 

579
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,300
four parts of the blockchain 
stock live with each individual 

580
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:17,300
chain lid. 
Okay. 

581
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:21,400
And so in the same way that with
interchange security, Kosmos, 

582
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,500
Hub, validators are going to 
have to run clients of the 

583
00:32:24,508 --> 00:32:27,400
consumer chains. 
They are validating Saga. 

584
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Validators are going to have to 
run clients for each of the 

585
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,500
chain lets's. 
You're validating, is that? 

586
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:37,400
This is where? 
Okay, then then my question is, 

587
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800
okay. 
Then this this stack, let's I 

588
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,000
want to talk about the the TxTag
where the client that they're 

589
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,900
running. 
Is that a cosmos sdk-based 

590
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:47,900
client. 
Uh-huh. 

591
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:52,600
And and then VMR, you guys do. 
Is it is it is it ether meant 

592
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,200
like what's the cause it's easy 
Em, Right so yeah, can you 

593
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,300
describe the text back? 
Yes. 

594
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,000
Yeah. 
Now that's exactly right. 

595
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,300
And so every chain is running 
Cosmos SDK That is not because 

596
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:06,500
any of the developers deploying 
on Saga have touched Cosmos. 

597
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,500
SDK necessarily, it's just a 
stack that we automatically spin

598
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:13,100
up for the VNS. 
They do have to be compatible 

599
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:17,000
with tender moment consensus. 
So it's not like you know people

600
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,000
who have already worked on a 
salon. 

601
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,500
A VM in the salon ecosystem we 
can just take their work and 

602
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:22,800
then plug it into our system. 
It's not going to work that way.

603
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,700
So our evm implementation is 
either meant yes, they've done 

604
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,300
the work which we really 
appreciate form. 

605
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,700
Making the evm compatible with 
Cosmos. 

606
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:38,600
And when we move to the next 
kind of VM Cosmos and that's 

607
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,700
going to be a little easier as 
this Cosmos native. 

608
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:44,700
But honestly for the other kinds
of virtual machine environment 

609
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:47,500
like a salon IBM, I mean that's 
something that Eclipse which is 

610
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:52,700
one of our innovators is doing 
and because it is a bigger lift 

611
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:56,800
our team could undertake making 
all those beams compatible with 

612
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200
with tender man, but I think 
it's much better to rely on 

613
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,200
other community members. 
It was spotted the Opportunity. 

614
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,300
They are and provided these 
vegans themselves. 

615
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,000
But, yes, in terms of the stack,
whatever VM we make available or

616
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,100
that a developer uses to deploy 
on us, it's got to be compatible

617
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:20,600
to temperament, right? 
And are you, are you familiar 

618
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,900
with any of the work that's 
being done on the kazim, wasum 

619
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:28,100
SDK. 
And I wonder if Yeah, because 

620
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:31,199
I've most is effectively, I 
think going in the same 

621
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,000
Direction, with their Atmos SDK,
and by that, I mean 

622
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:40,100
re-implementing the cosmos SDK 
modules as smart contracts in 

623
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:46,500
Cozumel Azam, and, and solidity,
I guess, or rust and solidity. 

624
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:50,000
But compatible with a, cause a 
Muslim in EDM SDK is that 

625
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,900
something that you see, as a 
viable path for the future for 

626
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,200
streamlining, you know, since 
since application since the 

627
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,300
Occasions themselves are not 
using, I mean, they're not going

628
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:01,300
to be using these. 
Cosmic SDK modules are just like

629
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:04,800
interacting and building an 
application using the VM 

630
00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:06,900
component. 
Yeah. 

631
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:10,000
So it's I think at the end of 
the day not to sort of over 

632
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,900
simplify this a bit of us a 
philosophical question as to 

633
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:17,000
what is the most viable kind of 
business model for a protocol 

634
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,400
moving forward? 
So is it more in providing that 

635
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,700
really easy to use developer 
environment in which to deploy 

636
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:27,700
on. 
So essentially what these 

637
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:30,400
efforts are trying to replicate 
is your was so easy for a 

638
00:35:30,408 --> 00:35:32,400
developer to deploy. 
Slutty smart contract on 

639
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,900
ethereum and get going right 
away. 

640
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,600
Can we replicate the same 
experience in Cosmos? 

641
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,400
And I think that there's 
definitely a place for that kind

642
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,000
of development effort here. 
But the question becomes is that

643
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,900
the core competency of Kosmos is
that really the value, add that 

644
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:50,700
our particular ecosystem 
provides to web three in general

645
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,500
and I would say that it's part 
of the the big puzzle but really

646
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:57,700
people come to Cosmos because 
they want their own Is to 

647
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,400
built-in. 
And so, I don't know if these 

648
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,300
Source smart contract 
Innovations alone can accomplish

649
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:09,000
that, you need to be able to 
spin up space and as easier way 

650
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,300
as possible, we're doing it in 
an automated way, but, but when 

651
00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:16,200
we think of Cosmos, I mean again
it's I'm full of puns today, 

652
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,400
unfortunately. 
Sorry guys, but when you think 

653
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,800
of Cosmos you think of space, 
right? 

654
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,100
You think of your own space and 
I think that's what we've 

655
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:26,400
decided to really focus on is 
other, people are making all 

656
00:36:26,408 --> 00:36:29,200
these more Contracting. 
Ovations that we hope to help 

657
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,600
bring to Market through our 
ecosystem and our 

658
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,300
implementations and our 
adoption. 

659
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,100
But at the end of the day, what 
why do people come to Cosmos? 

660
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,300
What is cause most known for it 
is God's sovereignty. 

661
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,800
So we're looking to provide that
space is where yeah we're 

662
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,700
attacking the developer problem 
from from multiple different 

663
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:47,200
angles. 
I think they're all necessary at

664
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,600
the end of the day but this is 
why we've chosen our path. 

665
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,000
Right. 
I think, I guess, maybe taking 

666
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,500
it back to the sovereignty. 
Now, we sort of discussed it 

667
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,500
all. 
Chain LEDs are sort of the same 

668
00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:01,900
it at least in terms of like the
size and spec. 

669
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000
What exactly can you still like 
sort of customized? 

670
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,600
I guess the VM which right now 
is just evm but what else? 

671
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,100
Like can you tweak the block 
times? 

672
00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:14,300
Do you like what else can you 
sort of do on your channel? 

673
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:16,100
It? 
Yes. 

674
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:18,400
You can set your own blog times 
that's totally fine. 

675
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,900
And what we're starting to do. 
Were worth were making the 

676
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:27,700
system into a modular stock in 
its own, right? 

677
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:30,100
So you have the Saga chain, 
let's or the plain vanilla 

678
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:32,200
version. 
You can tweak log X for any Saga

679
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,300
chain limit. 
And then on top of that we have 

680
00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:37,200
a bunch of services. 
So we've been talking about AWS 

681
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,100
this entire time, but really AWS
and just your cloud service in 

682
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:43,200
general, I don't think they 
would have really gone anywhere 

683
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,200
without something like a Heroku 
or Heroku, like Services 

684
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,400
supplementing that. 
So that's something that our 

685
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,900
CTO, frankly spending most of 
his time on Right now is 

686
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:53,600
figuring out what are those 
services? 

687
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,500
That will help developer 
basically, you know, get as 

688
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,400
close as possible to that one 
click. 

689
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:02,000
So when they want to spin up a 
chain love, what are all? 

690
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,400
What are all the services that 
we need to bundle as a part of 

691
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,100
that in order to make that 
experience, as seamless as 

692
00:38:08,107 --> 00:38:12,400
possible for them? 
Now, some of that is, is going 

693
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,600
to be common across, most 
implementations. 

694
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:18,600
I mean, one example of that is 
the Explorer. 

695
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,700
Everyone needs an Explorer, but 
if you are a gaming, a Station 

696
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:23,900
for instance, then you're 
probably going to need the multi

697
00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:27,700
chain wallet right away because 
I mean you're you're probably 

698
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:31,000
multi-chain to to begin with and
you want to be within the entire

699
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,100
Saga ecosystem. 
You probably need a game 

700
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,000
launcher in the SDK that comes 
with that. 

701
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:39,300
And so that's, you know, a group
of services will be bundled into

702
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:43,500
that sort of implementation. 
If it's an mft project where you

703
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,700
don't have the same 
requirements, then it's probably

704
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:50,200
a more streamlined set of 
services when we start to really

705
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,700
focus on things. 
Like If I, for instance or other

706
00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:54,800
use cases, that will be another 
set of services. 

707
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,100
So our goal is to really make 
this into a platform where we 

708
00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:01,400
think that in order to 
successfully launch a chain 

709
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:02,900
lead. 
For this particular use case, 

710
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:05,800
these are all the services that 
you need, but other than the 

711
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,800
base chain, like you can take 
things out, you can add things 

712
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,100
in as you like. 
So above that protocol, based 

713
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:16,000
protocol level, there is 
actually quite a lot that you 

714
00:39:16,008 --> 00:39:19,000
can customize. 
And then with some of the newer 

715
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,700
Partnerships that we have, it's 
not Adding services on top of 

716
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:23,600
chain. 
Let's anymore. 

717
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,500
I mean, when you work with 
somebody like a Celestial, 

718
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,800
certainly somebody like a 
polygon, they have their own 

719
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,700
stack. 
And so that becomes a separate 

720
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:34,100
offering on Saga all together, 
where were using some very key 

721
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:37,900
parts of the Saga stock, but at 
the same time, you know, it's 

722
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,700
going to be polygon Edge code. 
For instance, it's going to be 

723
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,000
Celestia romant and data 
availability. 

724
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,100
So those are far more 
specialized Stacks that 

725
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,700
developers can also choose and 
if they want to customize in 

726
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,300
that direction, then that option
is there for them. 

727
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,800
Them. 
But the whole point is to build 

728
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,300
a platform, right? 
So you already took away like 

729
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:00,700
some of our next topic, 
obviously, that, that the 

730
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:03,100
Partnerships. 
I mean like the first of all, 

731
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,300
congrats on like, scoring so 
many, like names there, I guess.

732
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,600
Like you mentioned, polygons and
Celestia, I think it would be 

733
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,600
cool to sort of go into how that
works. 

734
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,500
These Partnerships, you sort of 
mentioned, right? 

735
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:23,300
They are using Saga for certain.
Immense in their stack. 

736
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,100
So I think with with Celestia 
there's this concept of like 

737
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:30,900
sequences as a service and in 
Pulley got your working with the

738
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:33,100
super dead. 
So maybe you like sort of, 

739
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,900
explain a little bit both of 
these Partnerships and how Saga 

740
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400
sort of helps the developers in 
these ecosystems. 

741
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,100
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

742
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,200
Absolutely. 
So towards the end of last year,

743
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,000
as we started to mature these 
conversations with lesstm 

744
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,400
polygon. 
I think what our CTR recognized 

745
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,700
was wait a minute. 
When you look at the Saga 

746
00:40:56,700 --> 00:40:59,000
system, you know, so far. 
We've just been talking about 

747
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,300
Cosmo, stop chains. 
So every chain let is a cosmo. 

748
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,300
Stop chain. 
What if we were able to 

749
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:06,600
generalize that such that? 
We think about it? 

750
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,800
Not so much as an AB J 
necessarily but just as 

751
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,600
dedicated block space because I 
think as As blockchains have 

752
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,300
just started to think about 
scaling more seriously. 

753
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,700
There are so many names for the 
same kind of concept. 

754
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:21,400
Yeah there's the option there's 
a side chain. 

755
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,300
There's a rollup, etc, etc. 
But is there a way that we can 

756
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:30,000
generalize right. 
Exactly. 

757
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:33,300
But is there a way that we can 
generalize across all of this? 

758
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:35,900
Because we do have a very unique
offering and that is the 

759
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:40,300
automation piece and the ability
to share security. 

760
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:45,100
So, is there a way that we can? 
For that across all these 

761
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:48,200
different dedicated block, space
offerings and the answer was 

762
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,500
yes. 
So both with Celestia and 

763
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:56,000
polygons I'll go into the 
specifics of each shortly but 

764
00:41:56,300 --> 00:42:00,500
but what they have in common is 
we realized you know the Saga 

765
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:04,500
system if you don't think about 
the validator said for a second.

766
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:06,200
So you don't think about the 
Saga validators. 

767
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,200
You focus only on the fact that 
we have this interchange 

768
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,400
security that has been Optimized
in a certain way to make the 

769
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,600
whole system permissionless and 
has also had all these Services 

770
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,000
built on top of it for that 
Heroku, like, deployment, that 

771
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,900
in and of itself is quite 
valuable to all these different,

772
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,900
dedicated blocks, Based 
Services. 

773
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:33,400
And then there is the 
possibility of communicating 

774
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,800
between somebody else's 
ecosystem and our ecosystem to 

775
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,000
access those Services through 
IBC. 

776
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:44,400
So that that General That is 
long as you have some sort of, 

777
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,300
you know, controller chain. 
If you will, if you have some 

778
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:50,900
sort of chain that can act as 
communication between our 

779
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:52,500
services and that other 
ecosystem. 

780
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:56,500
And there is IBC, then you get 
access to that automation. 

781
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:00,500
So that's that's the common 
theme that both celestion 

782
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:02,600
polygon has so, how does that 
manifest itself in Celestia? 

783
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,600
So with Celestia, they obviously
have very strong data 

784
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,100
availability in terms of the 
role of peace, I think they were

785
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:12,300
trying to figure out, how do we 
make this? 

786
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,500
It's easier because right now 
what you have to do for Roll Up 

787
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:17,000
is you got to get your own 
sequencers. 

788
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,900
Most of these Roll-Ups as a 
service projects are putting out

789
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:26,400
centralized sequencer sets, or 
single sequencer sets. 

790
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:29,900
And so how do we get to a 
decentralized sequencer said, 

791
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:32,300
how do we automate that? 
How do we sort of negate the 

792
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:34,300
need to recruit and to have your
own token. 

793
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,400
So that's where we come in. 
So we have in the celestial 

794
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:43,600
case, we're using our own 
validator set and the Sequencer 

795
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,400
selector or scheduler on the 
Celestia side, they're the ones 

796
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,700
who are going to be selecting 
the sequencers for particular 

797
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:53,400
Roll-Ups. 
And then if there should be any 

798
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,800
fraud or email activity on any 
of the validators working on the

799
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,500
Saga side, that will get 
communicated back to the 

800
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,800
Celestia system via data 
availability. 

801
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:04,600
And that's how we're able to 
orchestrate Roll-Ups as a 

802
00:44:04,607 --> 00:44:08,100
service in a decentralized way. 
So that's how it works with 

803
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:13,800
Celestia with polygons polygon 
is a different stack So they are

804
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,100
not only, you know, polygons at 
the Aryan based but they are 

805
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,000
polygon Edge specific. 
So polygon has an app chain 

806
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,700
solution is called super Nets 
and the team that developed it 

807
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,200
as polygon Edge. 
If you go on there, get Hub. 

808
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,400
You'll see that the entire stack
has been customized according to

809
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,600
polygon Edge. 
So what they were doing was they

810
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,100
were use similar concept, they 
were taking Matic, validators 

811
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:38,600
and saying to their customers or
clients. 

812
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,300
Hey, we can stand up a chain for
you. 

813
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:42,100
You can pick among our validator
set. 

814
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:46,700
And once the, the validators 
have been gathered, then we'll 

815
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:50,500
construct the chain for you is 
very long manual process. 

816
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,000
And that's why to date. 
There are no super nuts that are

817
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,800
actually live. 
So, how did, how do we actually 

818
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,500
use the adoption of this? 
And that's when automation 

819
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:02,000
really became a serious 
conversation. 

820
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,600
So there that was a trickier one
because Maddie validators don't 

821
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,800
want to be, you know, sidelined 
in this deal. 

822
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:12,900
Obviously, they want a piece of 
all the super net action so 

823
00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:16,100
Saga, validators were no longer 
going to be used to automate 

824
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,900
these chain LEDs. 
Instead, what we're going to do 

825
00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:25,800
is the super Nets are still 
going to be secured by the 

826
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,500
mattock validators. 
And in terms of making sure that

827
00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:35,500
those magic validators are 
behaving in the right way and 

828
00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:39,200
that they are still undergoing 
that auction mechanism. 

829
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:40,600
Sorry. 
I don't think we've talked about

830
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,000
the auction mechanism start. 
Yeah. 

831
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,800
But The way that we price our 
chain lets it through an auction

832
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,400
mechanism, will go into more 
detail about that later but it 

833
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,600
is a pretty big innovation in 
validator pricing, so making 

834
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,800
sure that the mattock validators
are adhering to that option and 

835
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,800
all the other sort of services 
in orchestration. 

836
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,100
That come with the Saga. 
Stack that again is going to be 

837
00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:04,300
communicated back and forth 
between their system and hours 

838
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:06,800
via ABC, but still going to be 
mad at validators. 

839
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:10,400
So if you want to think of it a 
certain way, it's that thematic 

840
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,300
validator, is that are 
participating in. 

841
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,700
At security, they are adopting 
parts of the Saga stock. 

842
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,100
So that's how those two 
Partnerships work. 

843
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,200
It's a provided a lot of detail,
but if you want to think of it 

844
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,000
in a very sort of simple way, it
is that a Celestial role of us 

845
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,800
now is like a chain lit. 
A polygon supernet is now a 

846
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:29,700
saga. 
Chain lit. 

847
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:34,200
How we make that? 
All work is primarily due to IDC

848
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,800
but the the point of these 
Partnerships is to generalize 

849
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,000
the automated deployment of 
dedicated block space Okay, 

850
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,900
interesting. 
So you're saying I select a 

851
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:49,400
Celestial roll-up is now a saga.
Chain Latt. 

852
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:53,100
Uh-huh. 
That that kind of blows my mind 

853
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,400
because I mean, you're not 
talking about like Celestia's 

854
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,900
data. 
Availability layer. 

855
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:59,800
You're talking about the 
execution environment. 

856
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,600
Yeah. 
Right. 

857
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,100
So you're still be like a fuel 
roll-up or something like that. 

858
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:07,500
Exactly. 
So it's just specific to the 

859
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:10,700
role of peace and also to be 
clear that this is now an 

860
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:15,800
offering that both Celestia and 
saw the will make available, but

861
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:19,500
if for whatever reason you, you 
went to celestine's that, I love

862
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:21,700
their data availability. 
But yeah, I have my own 

863
00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:23,600
validators. 
I want to do a roll up of my 

864
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,400
own, that's totally still an 
option. 

865
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:27,600
It's the same for polygons. 
Super Annette's. 

866
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,000
If any developer said, you know,
I want to go through the process

867
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,900
of selecting my own mad. 
Ecology haters and customizing 

868
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:36,800
this chain completely for my own
purposes. 

869
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,400
And I want to make it 
permissions, Etc. 

870
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,300
You can still do that, but we 
are probably going to be the 

871
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,300
easier option for developers to 
go with. 

872
00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:50,000
Right. 
I think I guess you sort of 

873
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,500
touched on it maybe we can go 
back a bit to the the innovation

874
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:58,500
of like sort of how you price 
validator seats. 

875
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:02,400
So this auction I think it's 
called musical chairs. 

876
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,700
I remember reading the white 
paper a while ago so yeah I 

877
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:10,700
think yeah, super interesting 
Concept in terms of yeah, going 

878
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:14,600
a bit away from like the model. 
It's currently is get some steak

879
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,400
and then you get the rewards but
rather more engaged. 

880
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,700
S in terms of on the validator 
side. 

881
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:24,300
So curious why you came up with 
that and I guess how it works 

882
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:25,800
obviously. 
So yeah. 

883
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,000
Maybe you can expand on that of 
it. 

884
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:33,800
Yeah absolutely. 
So I think that we had two 

885
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,300
goals. 
Really, I'm with respect to this

886
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,200
mechanism that we came up with 
which is the musical chairs 

887
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,600
auction things. 
Feel like yeah that's that is 

888
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,500
our name for it. 
I'll explain why in a second. 

889
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:49,700
But on the developer side, we 
wanted to To give them as 

890
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:53,900
predictable and commoditized, or
pricing as possible for chain 

891
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,800
LEDs because I mean, that would 
greatly help with the 

892
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,600
development effort, on the 
validator side, we understood 

893
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:06,000
the burden of having to 
instantaneously validate, as 

894
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,600
many chain LEDs, as the 
developers are requesting, as 

895
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,300
long as they can pay for them. 
So, even though validator says, 

896
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:13,200
yes, you know, please give me 
all your chain LEDs. 

897
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,600
It is obviously a huge 
undertaking in terms of the 

898
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,600
hardware. 
And the maintenance and the, all

899
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,100
of that. 
So this was a way to help out 

900
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:27,600
the developers and make sure 
that they were getting what they

901
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,400
expected out of the system. 
But in terms of metering for the

902
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,200
validators, and this was also 
going to be very helpful. 

903
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:37,400
So this is how we designed the 
system to make sure that we were

904
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,900
taken care of both parties. 
So for validators every Epoch, 

905
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:45,400
which is about a day they enter 
into this musical chairs 

906
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:46,900
auction. 
So musical chairs. 

907
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:47,900
Y'all know how? 
It works. 

908
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:52,000
It's a party game. 
Y'all have a set of chairs and 

909
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,900
you stand up. 
You walk around the circle of 

910
00:49:54,900 --> 00:49:57,000
chairs. 
Music is playing this whole 

911
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,500
time. 
When the Music Stops. 

912
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:00,400
You got to sit down and find a 
chair. 

913
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,400
If you don't have a chair, 
you're out of the game. 

914
00:50:02,900 --> 00:50:07,300
So it's the same idea here. 
Every Epoch validators enter 

915
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:10,100
into this musical chairs 
auction, and they post their 

916
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:14,000
price for what they will accept 
to secure a chain, like it. 

917
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,700
Now, The lowest set of prices is
going to win that auction. 

918
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,800
So, all the validators who 
posted those lowest set of 

919
00:50:23,808 --> 00:50:27,000
prices. 
They are in the active set now, 

920
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,200
which of those is the actual 
Chain LED price. 

921
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,800
It gets quoted to the developer.
It is the highest price in that 

922
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,200
set. 
So if you are that validator, 

923
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,600
that bid, the highest price you 
guys exactly what you asked for.

924
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:42,400
If you bid lower than that then 
you get additional margin on top

925
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,100
of what you would have already 
probably baked into your bid and

926
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:48,300
so it's Nice additional profit 
for you. 

927
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:50,700
So, that's the winning set up 
validators. 

928
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,600
Now, if you bid higher than the 
winning set, then you are out of

929
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,400
that act of set of validators 
for that particular ethic and 

930
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,300
that is one way in which we're 
trying to encourage the 

931
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:05,600
validators to to Really bid 
their true value in terms of 

932
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,600
what they would accept for 
securing a chain lit. 

933
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,300
And yes, the the whole point is 
of this mechanism is to get that

934
00:51:12,300 --> 00:51:15,900
price down as much as possible, 
and that's how it benefits the 

935
00:51:15,908 --> 00:51:17,700
developers side. 
I'd for the developer. 

936
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,600
They need to know exactly what 
they're going to be paying for 

937
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,600
each particular epic for keeping
a chain. 

938
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,200
Let alive. 
But they also, I mean, obviously

939
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,000
everyone wants a lower price in 
that case, and this auction 

940
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,300
mechanism is our way of trying 
to get to that as much as 

941
00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:35,000
possible. 
I mean, further down the line we

942
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,900
fully anticipate that is just is
going to get cheaper and cheaper

943
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:40,600
as Hardware improves for 
validator services as our 

944
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,900
validators that expands and as 
we start to do some sort of 

945
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:50,000
optimization in the system. 
Then I think that's that's how 

946
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,100
we'll get the cost down for all 
these validators even further 

947
00:51:53,100 --> 00:51:54,900
and then hopefully they will 
drive the price down for chain. 

948
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:57,300
Let's overall. 
That's, that's how the mechanism

949
00:51:57,300 --> 00:52:00,600
works. 
Right, that's cool. 

950
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,600
I think, actually, I think Suey 
actually has some sort of 

951
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,700
auction to where you actually 
set the gas price for an Epoch, 

952
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,900
I guess, in your case, it's 
more, what the validators get 

953
00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:12,900
paid but in this in their case, 
it's the gas price. 

954
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,700
So seems like validators will 
have to become a bit more 

955
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:20,800
involved in this sort of like, 
economic a setting which, which 

956
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,400
is interesting if that will 
work. 

957
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,900
I'm, I mean, we've been running 
like the graph for a while, 

958
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,800
which also has, like, sort of 
the system of like, oh, you have

959
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,700
Have to allocate your steak to 
certain sub graphs to optimally 

960
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:35,500
get the ride rewards. 
I think it's interesting to see 

961
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:39,000
like that this sort of becomes a
differentiator, or like thing 

962
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,000
that validators need to do. 
But yeah. 

963
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,500
Okay, so that's interesting, but
there's still sort of Delegation

964
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:49,200
and commission rates for 
validators, but essentially, 

965
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:53,900
you're deciding like what all 
these changes would pay. 

966
00:52:53,900 --> 00:52:56,600
And then that pool of the money 
from the train lines will sort 

967
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,000
of be redirected to the 
validators as Sort of part of 

968
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,100
their earnings. 
Yes, that's exactly right. 

969
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:05,800
So, and so, all usual ways in 
which validators get compensated

970
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,400
in a proof of stake system, 
those will still hold. 

971
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,600
So there will be delegation to 
the validators. 

972
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,400
There is a commission that the 
validators will charge in terms 

973
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,400
of staking rewards inflation in 
particular those that those 

974
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:19,800
rewards will also go to 
validators. 

975
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,400
So the chain lift, B is actually
on top of all that. 

976
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,900
So we have anticipated scenarios
where say you are a larger 

977
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:28,700
validator and you just you want 
to guarantee your place in that.

978
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,200
At set and you have the economic
means to do that. 

979
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:35,800
Then you just bid zero, you 
offer that security for free and

980
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,700
you just rely on all the rewards
that you're getting from The 

981
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,500
Saga protocol for being a 
validator. 

982
00:53:40,500 --> 00:53:42,500
I mean, we have contemplated 
that scenario. 

983
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:45,100
Now, of course, I mean, we do 
have the whole slashing 

984
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:47,500
mechanism, so if anything should
go wrong in validator 

985
00:53:47,500 --> 00:53:52,500
operations, then obviously there
are consequences there, but 

986
00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:56,600
yeah, that's Those are young 
some of the some of the corner 

987
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,400
cases that we started to 
contemplate with respect to 

988
00:53:58,408 --> 00:54:02,600
validate our Behavior. 
So it sort of also like I guess 

989
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:07,600
a bit of a Sybil resistance 
thing that you charge a fee for 

990
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:08,900
for the chain. 
Let, right? 

991
00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:12,800
Or I guess there's some sort of,
is there a limit? 

992
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,500
How many changes there can beat?
Are you setting this at Saga 

993
00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:17,800
like maintain level? 
Sort of? 

994
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,300
Okay, we can only have 1000 
shallots or is it sort of let go

995
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:23,200
wild? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can stand 

996
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,700
up as many channels as you like 
as long. 

997
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,400
Pay for them. 
And that's that's the criteria 

998
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,700
you got to pay for them and so 
for somebody who is looking to 

999
00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:34,500
stand up a chain let's so we 
don't allow for that unless you 

1000
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:38,700
actually have Saga tokens in an 
escrow account on our system. 

1001
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:43,600
So we as soon as you instantiate
that chain let and that chain 

1002
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,600
letters running, it's being kept
alive, then we will withdraw 

1003
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,600
those Saga tokens from your 
account. 

1004
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,800
So you can't just, you know, 
come to our system and say, you 

1005
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,400
know, give me 10,000 chain LEDs,
their payment is due. 

1006
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,000
Pretty immediately. 
So that's the way that we 

1007
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,700
prevent the system from getting 
a tag. 

1008
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:04,100
But in terms of Sybil, I think, 
the way that we spent probably 

1009
00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:06,700
about six months on this auction
mechanism, like designing, all 

1010
00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:08,900
the ins and outs of it. 
Our current paper goes through 

1011
00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:11,300
the whole mechanism, but in 
terms of the actual numbers that

1012
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:15,400
we assign to all the various 
levers in the mechanism, that 

1013
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,900
that is taking a long time to 
come up with and we'll reveal 

1014
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:20,900
that soon. 
But the idea is we are very 

1015
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:24,400
cognizant that if we make it too
easy for somebody to, you know, 

1016
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,600
win These options consistently 
then then we open ourselves up 

1017
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,500
to Sybil. 
But yeah, that's because it's 

1018
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:33,800
definitely something that we 
thought a lot about when 

1019
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,000
designing this. 
Yeah, I think super cool. 

1020
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,500
I guess we could like talk about
this for another half an hour 

1021
00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:45,000
probably but I guess we want to 
also sort of talk a bit about 

1022
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:50,800
again some more ecosystem things
baby and sort of the two rules 

1023
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,500
slowly wrap up like more. 
Yeah about about this sort of 

1024
00:55:53,508 --> 00:55:54,600
stuff instead of the 
architecture. 

1025
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,200
So I guess, first of all, we 
already sort of talked about it 

1026
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,700
that the focus is kind of the 
gaming and entertainment that's 

1027
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:06,100
probably like I mean I guess 
historically you know defy sort 

1028
00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:12,100
of dominating in in crypto like 
as a primary use case. 

1029
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,600
But obviously it many people 
think gaming was, is there was 

1030
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,100
supposed to be the one that 
break out. 

1031
00:56:16,100 --> 00:56:20,500
Like, can you explain sort of 
y-you're focusing on on that 

1032
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,700
kind of area and like how how 
Saga is like uniquely placed 

1033
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:28,700
there to to service those use 
cases I guess? 

1034
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:32,000
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

1035
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:36,600
So gaming and entertainment, 
and, you know, we noticed at the

1036
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,300
time that Saga was found as 
early 2022. 

1037
00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:42,100
We notice that gaming entertain 
was already on the, on the 

1038
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:44,300
uptick that there was a lot of 
growth in this area. 

1039
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:47,700
But as a start-up, we definitely
have to ask ourselves a hard 

1040
00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:49,800
question of. 
Okay, you're building a really 

1041
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,800
cool product. 
This product could benefit 

1042
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,300
pretty much everybody in so many
ways, but the way you actually 

1043
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:59,200
get to adoption, is you 
recognize that some people 

1044
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,600
really urgent? 
He said as opposed to, you know,

1045
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,400
it's a nice to have. 
So I think for defy dedicated 

1046
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,100
block space on demand like this 
is a nice to have. 

1047
00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:11,900
It's not existential because I 
mean d Phi is thirst without it.

1048
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,300
And defy transactions, they tend
to be slightly lower in volume 

1049
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:20,700
but very high in value and so 
when you have that combination 

1050
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:23,700
you don't mind congestion quite 
as much. 

1051
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:29,000
You also are more tolerant of 
those Gatsby's because the value

1052
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,500
of your transaction. 
Is already pretty good to begin 

1053
00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:33,400
with. 
Now, you flip that over to 

1054
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,900
gaming and entertainment, and 
this is all about the user 

1055
00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:38,900
experience as someone who gains 
myself. 

1056
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:41,600
If I have to pay for something, 
I just, I really gotta love that

1057
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,200
game, otherwise, it's not the 
money necessarily, it's the 

1058
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,000
interruption of the fun, it's 
the interruption of the 

1059
00:57:48,008 --> 00:57:50,700
experience. 
And so I think that's something 

1060
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:54,400
that we had three realized. 
Okay, we have to solve for that 

1061
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:59,600
or else people are never going 
to really migrate from a web to 

1062
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,200
kind of Environmental web 31. 
And so when we stopped back and 

1063
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,000
said, okay, who desperately 
needs this kind of 

1064
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,700
infrastructure? 
It really is gaming and 

1065
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:11,100
entertainment there. 
You know, I mentioned with defy 

1066
00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:14,400
transactions volume is 
relatively low transaction value

1067
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,200
is very high in gaming 
entertainment. 

1068
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:20,100
The transaction volume is very 
high transaction. 

1069
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:25,100
Value is usually low to nothing.
So that's the kind of 

1070
00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:27,100
environment in which you need 
your own chain. 

1071
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:29,900
Essentially, you need your own 
blog space, I think. 

1072
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,300
For everyone who's building in 
our ecosystem, they have come up

1073
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:37,900
against the, the issues with 
building on monolithic chains. 

1074
00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:39,700
Even a salon as Lana can be 
fast. 

1075
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:43,000
But the chain, you know, 
occasionally goes down and 

1076
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:46,600
you're still affected by other 
applications and should anything

1077
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,600
happen to your particular 
implementation and it's on the 

1078
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,300
Chain level, you got no one to 
talk to. 

1079
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,200
I mean, you could talk to the 
core team but you have no 

1080
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,500
control your own engineering 
team, feels a little helpless, 

1081
00:58:57,500 --> 00:58:59,900
in terms of being able to do 
something to service that you 

1082
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,900
Others. 
So that's why we felt the gaming

1083
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:05,200
and entertainment piece was a 
really great fit for our 

1084
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,400
infrastructure and that's why 
we're starting there. 

1085
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,800
Very cool. 
Yeah gaming is is it's like a 

1086
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:19,500
sector in crypto that I haven't 
really been convinced yet. 

1087
00:59:19,900 --> 00:59:25,400
I don't know why because there's
seems to be an entire Part of 

1088
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,500
the industry. 
That's just too hyper focused on

1089
00:59:27,500 --> 00:59:32,200
this use case and for me I just 
don't see it yet. 

1090
00:59:33,700 --> 00:59:39,200
Yeah, so I would say this I 
would say that the play to earn 

1091
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:44,500
model is probably going to not 
die out because they're always 

1092
00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:47,700
be people sort of looking for 
those returns but it just it'll 

1093
00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:50,400
be a lot less prevalent. 
I think with a success of 

1094
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,700
something you like an acci for 
instance, everyone tried to 

1095
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:54,700
replicate that model, you know, 
how can we do? 

1096
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,900
Generate a token for the game 
and then when people play the 

1097
00:59:56,900 --> 01:00:00,600
game they earned the token, that
model definitely did not 

1098
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,500
withstand the test of a bear 
market. 

1099
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,400
So now we're getting back to 
fundamentals, which is how do 

1100
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,500
you just build a fun experience 
and that's where I went three 

1101
01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:12,500
actually has something very 
significant to offer. 

1102
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,200
I wouldn't say it's necessarily 
in the economic piece. 

1103
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,100
Again, most of us who gained we 
gain for, for the fun, for the 

1104
01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:23,500
dopamine, hit for the community 
of being part of a guild of 

1105
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:29,500
players and some And the same 
Dynamics are not just going to 

1106
01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:32,100
apply to web 3. 
They are already in web 3. 

1107
01:00:32,100 --> 01:00:34,800
I think the fact that we are so 
community-focused in web 3 is 

1108
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,500
actually why the crossover with 
gaming and entertainment has 

1109
01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:40,200
happened. 
So what we're really excited by 

1110
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,800
at Saga is not so much play to 
earn, although we do have some 

1111
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,100
really cool games in that space.
It's really in the decentralized

1112
01:00:48,100 --> 01:00:50,600
generation of content. 
So if you really love a game for

1113
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,100
instance you get into it and 
then you want to develop your 

1114
01:00:53,100 --> 01:00:54,800
own story lines here on 
characters. 

1115
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:59,400
Maybe your own assets and rather
than go to Bright or Microsoft 

1116
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,300
and just scream and plea that 
you want this included in the 

1117
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:04,600
game, you can just do it because
you're a member of the community

1118
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:07,000
and then people. 
Yeah. 

1119
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,400
Well, then gravitate to that you
build your own following cetera,

1120
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,400
Etc. 
So how do we take a piece of Ip?

1121
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,200
In other words, that brings a 
lot of people joy and then 

1122
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,900
democratize that across the 
community. 

1123
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:18,900
That's where the action is that 
it's not in you know please give

1124
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:21,300
me more out, see tokens. 
Okay. 

1125
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:22,800
That's really interesting. 
Yeah. 

1126
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:27,300
Well I guess maybe I need to I 
need to look at this little bit 

1127
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:31,600
more more deeply. 
Yeah, before I wrap up, you 

1128
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,600
know, and I wanted to ask you, 
we talked a little bit about 

1129
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:39,300
this earlier, is there is, there
are so many narratives around 

1130
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:44,900
block space security, and so we 
have the modulars modular 

1131
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:47,200
narrative. 
We have the app chain narrative,

1132
01:01:47,500 --> 01:01:49,500
we have The Interchange security
narrative. 

1133
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:53,300
We have the monolithic chain, 
every smart contract is on the 

1134
01:01:53,300 --> 01:01:55,500
same Cherry narrative. 
Although that one probably is 

1135
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:02,800
sort of on its way out and and 
then there are Many variations 

1136
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,200
in between that, you know, there
are different ways that one can 

1137
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,800
Implement Celestia with 
Sovereign roll up. 

1138
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,000
Since settlement role as 
excetera. 

1139
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:14,700
What does this all look like? 
What's the endgame here? 

1140
01:02:14,700 --> 01:02:16,600
And where is this almost? 
Like? 

1141
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,000
How do you how do you reason 
about all of these different 

1142
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,400
security? 
Trade-offs, and configurations? 

1143
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,100
And yeah, how our users and 
development. 

1144
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:28,900
More importantly, our developer 
is going to want to reason about

1145
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:34,500
these things as The next wave of
application Innovation comes you

1146
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:36,400
know and maybe two to three 
years. 

1147
01:02:37,300 --> 01:02:40,600
Yeah, so I think from a 
developer perspective, I mean 

1148
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,600
you you are looking to not think
about this because because I 

1149
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,300
think most developers particular
they're focused on the 

1150
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:50,400
application Level. 
That's what they're really good 

1151
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,600
at is the application logic and 
that's where they want to spend 

1152
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,000
their time building their 
project. 

1153
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,200
The traction on that application
is how they're going to see 

1154
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,000
growth and so, That's what they 
want to focus on if they have to

1155
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,800
think about the infrastructure 
piece, I think that's where they

1156
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:07,700
start to get turned off. 
So the nice thing about a 

1157
01:03:07,707 --> 01:03:10,900
monolithic chain for instance, 
is it does afford you the 

1158
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:13,000
ability to just focus on the 
application and it gives you a 

1159
01:03:13,008 --> 01:03:15,600
whole host of other problems. 
But at least, you know, your 

1160
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,100
mindshare is devoted to what 
your core competency is. 

1161
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:25,200
I think for Cosmos, We Are 
Climbing that ladder of getting 

1162
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,400
to a place where a developer 
doesn't have to think about the 

1163
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,800
security piece, they don't have 
to think about the infra and 

1164
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,900
again the Let's focus on that 
application and I mean, that's a

1165
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:37,700
huge part of sagas Mission. 
But you mentioned Sebastian, 

1166
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,800
when you look at the whole 
landscape of scaling Solutions 

1167
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,100
out there which one is exactly 
going to win necessarily. 

1168
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:50,300
I think it's not so much the 
stuck that you should focus on 

1169
01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:53,200
when you're looking to answer 
that question, I think it's in 

1170
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:57,100
the communication piece, so we 
just look at our own experience 

1171
01:03:57,100 --> 01:04:02,200
and we know that without IVC 
polygon Celestia would not have 

1172
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,600
been possible if there were just
there would not have been a way 

1173
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:10,200
for our inner chain security. 
Orchestration automation stock 

1174
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,900
to be able to communicate with 
these other ecosystems and then 

1175
01:04:13,900 --> 01:04:16,400
automate the the dedicated walk 
space for them. 

1176
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:20,900
So IBC was key in that I think 
even for the projects that are a

1177
01:04:20,900 --> 01:04:23,200
building on us as part of our 
Innovative program, you know, 

1178
01:04:23,207 --> 01:04:25,100
these are small to mid-sized 
gaming and entertainment 

1179
01:04:25,100 --> 01:04:28,900
projects, a huge part of the 
value, add for them is IDC. 

1180
01:04:28,900 --> 01:04:34,100
And the fact that For instance, 
a salon a game for the first 

1181
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:37,000
time, they are able to come onto
Saga. 

1182
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,800
So, they have an instance of the
game on Saga. 

1183
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,000
And then there's a polygon gain 
that is staying on polygon, but 

1184
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,900
they also have an instance on 
Saga and it's through IBC that 

1185
01:04:44,900 --> 01:04:46,200
they're able to communicate with
each other. 

1186
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,300
For the first time, they're able
to transfer those assets back 

1187
01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:51,800
and forth and that's a huge 
benefit for their Gamers. 

1188
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:56,100
So intense, in terms of scaling 
out their particular game, they 

1189
01:04:56,100 --> 01:04:57,900
have focused on that 
communication piece. 

1190
01:04:57,900 --> 01:05:00,200
So I think this is why I always 
say that. 

1191
01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:03,500
That for Cosmos you know Cosmos 
SDK the ability to stand up your

1192
01:05:03,500 --> 01:05:04,800
end chain. 
That was a really great 

1193
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,100
Innovation. 
But the signature achievement of

1194
01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:12,300
this ecosystem is IDC because 
what obviously allows you to do 

1195
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:16,200
or what it has allowed Saga to 
do it it has allowed us to take 

1196
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,700
the unique offerings of our 
stock with respect to scaling 

1197
01:05:20,100 --> 01:05:24,900
and plug it is. 
Allowed us to plug it into other

1198
01:05:24,900 --> 01:05:27,000
stats that have nothing to do 
with Cosmos. 

1199
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:30,500
And that's, that really is the 
power of it. 

1200
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,900
So, I think that, I mean that 
that is a strategy that will 

1201
01:05:35,900 --> 01:05:38,600
prove quite fruitful, it has 
worked for us so far. 

1202
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,500
I think we're going to continue 
it into the future, but it's a 

1203
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:45,800
reason why we bet on this face 
because it really is in that 

1204
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,400
ability to communicate that you 
can actually have these stats 

1205
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:53,100
work with one another Yeah, I 
mean I think that you know, 

1206
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:56,300
saying that IBC is the signature
achievement of the cosmos is 

1207
01:05:56,300 --> 01:06:00,300
pretty pretty spot-on for as far
as I'm concerned, I think that 

1208
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:06,700
it is probably the thing that of
the cosmos experiment will be 

1209
01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:10,900
the most long-lasting, and will 
have will spread across the 

1210
01:06:10,900 --> 01:06:14,800
broader ecosystem, more than 
anything else. 

1211
01:06:15,900 --> 01:06:21,000
I don't think about it in this. 
In this who, which will Irwin 

1212
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,200
perspective. 
I think about it more from a 

1213
01:06:24,207 --> 01:06:28,400
developer perspective. 
In terms of the trade-offs they 

1214
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:38,800
have to make between security 
scalability of well yeah, it's 

1215
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,500
like security and sovereignty 
and I think, right? 

1216
01:06:41,500 --> 01:06:45,200
So if you're building an 
application that and I look at 

1217
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:49,300
look at web to as the web to 
stack as an analogy and and the 

1218
01:06:49,300 --> 01:06:53,800
from the stack I mean really the
infrastructure stack where you 

1219
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:58,200
can build a Squarespace website 
and have only control over the 

1220
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,900
application and virtually no, 
control over any of the 

1221
01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:05,700
infrastructure at the other end 
of that, you have Amazon and 

1222
01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:09,700
Google building data centers, 
undersea, cables Hardware, 

1223
01:07:10,100 --> 01:07:13,700
vertically fully vertically 
integrated, and all of the 

1224
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:17,600
levels in between between, you 
know, from, you know, building 

1225
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:22,700
on AWS or, you know, these Very 
large Cloud platforms and having

1226
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:25,600
high levels of sovereignty, but 
High dependency on those 

1227
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:29,300
platforms and then there's, 
there's there's offerings all 

1228
01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:32,600
the way down, you know, to the, 
the least, Sovereign and the 

1229
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,500
easier to use. 
I see, I see this as more of a 

1230
01:07:35,500 --> 01:07:43,200
linear more of on a linear scale
than on a, yeah, that's that's 

1231
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,400
kind of the way I think that the
ecosystem will start 

1232
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,400
compartmentalizing. 
These things is based on the 

1233
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,000
application needs. 
And finally, you know, some 

1234
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:54,300
types of Applications are going 
to stick very well to one flavor

1235
01:07:54,300 --> 01:08:00,100
of of consensus and data, 
availability and execution and 

1236
01:08:00,100 --> 01:08:04,300
the sovereignty trade-offs there
and the dependency on those on 

1237
01:08:04,300 --> 01:08:08,500
those platform, trade-offs, Etc.
So yeah, I think I think these 

1238
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:13,100
things will start to make more 
sense and will start to line up 

1239
01:08:13,500 --> 01:08:15,500
over the next over the next two 
years. 

1240
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:20,399
Yeah, Yeah no especially because
I mean developers are they're 

1241
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:24,500
not just good in terms of the 
coding and the software 

1242
01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:27,700
development I think most 
developers in the space are also

1243
01:08:27,700 --> 01:08:31,500
entrepreneurs and so they think 
about does this make business 

1244
01:08:31,500 --> 01:08:33,100
sense? 
In terms of what it's costing 

1245
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:34,399
me? 
You know how many users am I 

1246
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:36,600
actually getting onto my project
Etc. 

1247
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:40,200
So they're making all these 
calculations and they'll vote 

1248
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,899
with their feet in terms of 
which environment is best for 

1249
01:08:42,899 --> 01:08:44,800
them. 
I think there's a reason why 

1250
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:46,300
Cosmos has so much developer 
mind. 

1251
01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:50,200
Share and because they recognize
hey, in terms of ease of 

1252
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,300
developing? 
Yes, there are some significant 

1253
01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:55,600
things that Cosmos without 
further Innovation would ask me 

1254
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,899
to do but at the same time, in 
terms of robustness of the 

1255
01:08:58,899 --> 01:09:01,100
technology, its specification of
the stack. 

1256
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,100
It's yeah. 
There's a reason why it's quite 

1257
01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:06,200
popular. 
Awesome. 

1258
01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:11,399
Yeah, thanks so much Rebecca. 
I think we're ready to wrap up. 

1259
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:14,899
Almost I think maybe. 
So, thanks for coming on but 

1260
01:09:14,899 --> 01:09:20,399
also I guess as As a final 
question, we would love to hear 

1261
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:22,800
a bit like, you know, now we 
talked a lot about the 

1262
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,000
architecture design, the 
reasons, I guess can just tell 

1263
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,100
us a little bit like where are 
you at right now? 

1264
01:09:28,100 --> 01:09:32,399
In terms of like the roadmap of 
saga and you know, where can 

1265
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:35,899
people find more find you and 
learn more about Saga? 

1266
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:38,300
Yeah. 
Yeah absolutely. 

1267
01:09:38,300 --> 01:09:40,399
I'm so feel like Sebastian, 
thanks so much for having me on 

1268
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:43,100
this has been an amazing 
discussion and I think this 

1269
01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:46,600
particular podcast you go much 
deeper into the technical 

1270
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,200
details than most other podcasts
out. 

1271
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:53,100
There has been a lot of fun in 
terms of our roadmap. 

1272
01:09:53,100 --> 01:09:57,100
So we're going to have an 
announcement at East Denver, in 

1273
01:09:57,100 --> 01:10:01,300
terms of our next big release 
and that will be a true change 

1274
01:10:01,300 --> 01:10:04,500
launch teens. 
And so the validator set will be

1275
01:10:04,500 --> 01:10:07,500
smaller but it's the first time 
that you're seeing that 

1276
01:10:07,500 --> 01:10:09,700
orchestration. 
So what it'll allow developers 

1277
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:12,100
to do is launch ibm-compatible 
chain. 

1278
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:14,700
Let's but you're the chain. 
Let's are with a smaller 

1279
01:10:14,700 --> 01:10:17,500
validator side. 
Once we get closer to summer 

1280
01:10:17,500 --> 01:10:20,500
time, that's when you're going 
to see the validator said, be 

1281
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:24,500
expanded will be far more 
decentralized and a lot of the 

1282
01:10:24,500 --> 01:10:26,400
teacher said that we talked 
about on the show. 

1283
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,700
So IBC, for instance, the full 
implementation of shared 

1284
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:33,300
security that'll be a part of 
that test net. 

1285
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:36,900
And then we're going to run 
multiple tests nuts between And 

1286
01:10:36,900 --> 01:10:40,200
and mean that launched, which is
slated for Q3 Q4 this year. 

1287
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,600
So Saga is going life this year.
So, yeah, this is a busy year 

1288
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:51,500
for us and in terms of what we 
have to look forward to and 

1289
01:10:51,500 --> 01:10:53,400
where you can find more 
information about that. 

1290
01:10:53,700 --> 01:10:56,900
So, all of the information is 
available on our website Saga to

1291
01:10:56,900 --> 01:11:01,400
XYZ, it's also available on our 
Twitter, Twitter is probably the

1292
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,500
place where we make the most 
up-to-date announcements and so 

1293
01:11:04,500 --> 01:11:09,300
you can you can find us on On 
Twitter at Saga XYZ double 

1294
01:11:09,300 --> 01:11:12,600
underscore. 
And then, for me personally, you

1295
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,400
can find me at on Twitter at 
Becca Liao. 

1296
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,500
So, look forward to hearing from
everyone. 

1297
01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:20,500
We always look forward to 
hearing from our community 

1298
01:11:20,500 --> 01:11:22,400
across all of our social 
channels, whether it's Twitter 

1299
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:26,000
or a telegram Discord. 
But yeah, this this will be a 

1300
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,500
fun year. 
Okay, well, Rebecca thanks so 

1301
01:11:29,500 --> 01:11:33,400
much for joining us for diving 
deep into Saga, and look forward

1302
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,800
to seeing further developments 
and probably will see you in 

1303
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,400
Denver as well. 
Because both Felix and I will be

1304
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,900
there. 
Absolutely now, thanks so much 

1305
01:11:42,900 --> 01:11:44,400
avastin. 
This is a great discussion. 

1306
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,600
Thank you guys again for having 
me on and yeah look forward to 

1307
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:52,200
seeing you all in person soon. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1308
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,600
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1309
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,600
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You can find And subscribe to 

1310
01:11:56,600 --> 01:12:00,400
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1311
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:02,800
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1312
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,600
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1313
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,300
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1314
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,100
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1315
01:12:12,100 --> 01:12:14,400
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1316
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,800
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01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,600
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1318
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,000
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1319
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,700
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1320
01:12:25,700 --> 01:12:28,900
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01:12:28,900 --> 01:12:20,600
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1322
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,000
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1323
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,700
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1324
01:12:25,700 --> 01:12:28,900
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1325
01:12:28,900 --> 01:12:29,500
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