1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,800 This is epicenter episode 448, where the guests Ed felten. 2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,800 Welcome to epicenter, the show was shocked about Technologies 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,600 project and people driving decentralisation and the 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,900 blockchain revolution. I am greatly concerned. 5 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:29,800 I'm here with Brian Fabian creme and today, we're speaking with 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,800 Ed felten who is the co-founder of a Bertram which is a road up 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,400 Solution on top of aetherium and we will talk about this in great 8 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,500 detail in just a bit. But before we talk At about a 9 00:00:42,508 --> 00:00:46,100 Bertram we would like to tell you about our sponsors this 10 00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:48,700 week. So first of all, we have gnosis 11 00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:50,900 safe. 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I spelled steak like The Meat 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,300 fantastic and it is such a pleasure to have you on. 59 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:35,500 Thanks for having me and you are You are an OG cypherpunk. 60 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,500 You have been doing this longer than all of us. 61 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:47,100 Tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us what crypto 62 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:50,400 free blockchain. Sure, yes. 63 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,300 I've been working in. I've been playing around with 64 00:03:55,300 --> 00:04:00,400 software for a long time, actually since the 1970s, 65 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:07,200 believe it or not, And got involved in security and privacy 66 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,200 and cryptography. Research going back to the 90s. 67 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,200 I spent quite a few years at teaching at Princeton University 68 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,399 and computer science department and a lot of my research there 69 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:22,600 was around cryptography and security and getting into ideas 70 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,800 of digital money. Even before this sort of 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,100 explosion of cryptocurrency started with, you know what 72 00:04:30,100 --> 00:04:32,800 satoshi's original Bitcoin paper. 73 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:37,300 But I got interested in cryptocurrencies and blockchain 74 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:41,200 really early and started doing research in the area. 75 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,100 And, yeah, that's kind of what led up to to Arbitron. 76 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:48,300 But, you know, over the years, I've been involved in a lot of 77 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:55,300 different security things as a researcher and also maybe 78 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:58,900 surprisingly to folks in this space, as working in the 79 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:01,700 government, as well. So, yeah. 80 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:04,900 And I think a Lot of that is really help me get a perspective 81 00:05:04,900 --> 00:05:08,400 on what's Happening Now. And crypto space, you used to be 82 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,800 the deputy CTO of the USA. So, forgive me this question, 83 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,600 but I'm not American. And what what does what does the 84 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,800 CTO? And the deputy CTO get to do. 85 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,900 Sure. So basically as Deputy CTO I was 86 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:30,200 a member of the White House staff and Senior advisor to the 87 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,600 president, then President Obama and basically the job of the 88 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,600 CTO. And Deputy CTO is to advise the 89 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,300 president and the president's advisors about things having to 90 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:48,200 do with technology. So, we were not building stuff, 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,500 we weren't running systems. We weren't the ones whose pagers 92 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:52,800 would go off in the middle of the night. 93 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,800 There was some kind of an incident. 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,200 We were producing words and advice, but rooted in an 95 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,600 understanding of technology. So if, you know, there was some 96 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,500 kind of security breach somewhere, or if there was a 97 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:12,200 policy issue around technology, then we would work on it. 98 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,400 So as an example, I worked some on encryption policy. 99 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,800 Should the government regulate or ban an end to end encryption. 100 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:22,800 I worked on AI, and machine learning. 101 00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:27,000 If I was one of the folks who drove the national National 102 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,100 policy initiative on AI and machine learning back in those 103 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:34,300 days and things like that. So basically advising senior 104 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:37,000 government people and including up to and including the 105 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,200 president kind of an amazing job to have. 106 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:44,900 And did you do any crypto related work as part of that as 107 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,700 well? Yeah. 108 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:52,400 Did some you know this was very early days in terms of 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,600 government figuring out thinking about crypto but one of the 110 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,900 things I was working on is trying to get people across the 111 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:01,400 different Departments of the US government to start talking 112 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,500 about crypto and what they should do help help make sure 113 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:08,400 that the different parts of government of the executive 114 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,200 branch understood what was going on. 115 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,800 And and we're starting down the road of thinking about what they 116 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,600 should do. Whether it's, you know, people 117 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,400 thinking about. Should we have He's Central 118 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,900 Bank, digital dollar, as well as, you know, people who did 119 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:27,800 things like consumer protection and various kinds of Regulation. 120 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,200 Make sure that they understood what was going on, and we're 121 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,200 going to take a thoughtful approach to it. 122 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,300 So I was involved in sort of early attempts to get that 123 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:39,400 conversation going with in the US government. 124 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,500 So I'm curious because you mentioned before that like, you 125 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:48,300 know, you had to sort of perspective on on crypto and 126 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:50,800 blockchain, you know that was like maybe different because of 127 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,200 you know the work you did before I'm curious if you can talk a 128 00:07:55,207 --> 00:07:57,600 little bit more about that sort of you know when you discover 129 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,200 Bitcoin like what was your perspective and how has it 130 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,200 changed, as the industry has evolved. 131 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:09,000 Yeah, so yes, let me tell you a little bit about that. 132 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:11,100 Well, that particular that commented how my working 133 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:16,500 government has has affected my views on this, first of all, I 134 00:08:16,508 --> 00:08:19,500 have been a regulator or I've worked in a regulatory agency. 135 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:22,300 I worked at the Federal Trade Commission for a while, which 136 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:25,900 was as their a chief technologist which is in the US, 137 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:31,200 government is the main agency that protects people against 138 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:36,700 fraud commercial fraud and scams. and so, you know, that 139 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:40,799 mindset of how do we make sure that companies are not just 140 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:46,500 stealing from people, you know, the The equivalent of something 141 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:49,400 like what in the crypto world would be a rug Pole or some kind 142 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,000 of other? You know, really fraudulent 143 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,000 activity, and sort of thinking about what do you need to do to 144 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,400 help protect people against that. 145 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,700 And what is the role of government in trying to shut 146 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,500 down the Bad actors and try to get the money back and give it 147 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:05,200 to the people who it was stolen from? 148 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:09,600 And so I got some perspective from dealing with some of the 149 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,800 types of Fraud and scams that were going on online in those 150 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,800 days, that was like, 2011 and 12. 151 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:19,900 So then I did that for a little while, then he went back to 152 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:23,500 being an academic and during that academic time, starting 153 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:28,600 around 2012 is when I 13 is when I discovered Bitcoin and got 154 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,500 really interested in this, this stuff as a research topic and I 155 00:09:32,508 --> 00:09:34,600 questions of how people could protect themselves. 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,800 And how you could know that something that some software was 157 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,300 telling you what's going to happen, was actually going to 158 00:09:41,308 --> 00:09:46,000 happen was part of that plus just like Standing basic 159 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,200 questions like is proof of work incentive compatible. 160 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,800 That is like does it actually in sent minors to behave in a 161 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,600 Cooperative way? This turns out to be much more 162 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,300 complicated question than you might think. 163 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,600 But anyway, then sometimes certain early on I learned about 164 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,400 smart contracts and this idea that you could do run software 165 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,600 on top of a blockchain and I thought this was the coolest 166 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,800 thing ever and got really excited about the tech 167 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,500 especially one, you know it as a vehicle for For building 168 00:10:16,500 --> 00:10:20,900 software because I like been involved in and seeing the 169 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:23,600 development or sort of early development of internet and web 170 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,000 technology and saw sort of that stuff. 171 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,800 Go through. It's very early commercial birth 172 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,100 and, and some growth, and some Growing Pains. 173 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,100 So I'm like, okay, this is gonna happen with smart contracts. 174 00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:39,100 This is going to be huge as a software platform that in turn, 175 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:42,000 led me to thinking about. Well, like what are the 176 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,100 technical? Barriers to that technology? 177 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,200 Knology actually getting used by a billion people. 178 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:54,900 And well, one of the big technical barriers, that seemed 179 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:57,900 obvious at the time was scalability, and that in turn is 180 00:10:57,900 --> 00:10:59,900 what led to the work. Then sort of the birth of 181 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:04,500 arbitrary in early 2014, sort of, as an attempt to try to 182 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:08,500 solve the problem of how to scale this technology up so that 183 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:12,100 it could get the use that I figured at the I think a lot of 184 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:14,400 people did at the time that it was going to demand. 185 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:19,000 So let's talk about average room and just stupid that. 186 00:11:19,100 --> 00:11:23,100 But basically, thinking back about the very early, P2P the 187 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:27,200 community or the pre blockchain P2P Community, there are large 188 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:32,600 reservations or you know holdouts that are very skeptical 189 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,400 of blockchain Technology as a whole. 190 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,900 Why do you think that is? Also, I think it's a bunch of 191 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:45,800 things and we saw some of this with the early like the early 192 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,700 web Technologies. I mean, we have to admit that 193 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,500 some of the things that go on in this space are basically just 194 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,000 scams there people who are who are dishonest or people who 195 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:01,200 think they're honest but are actually doing things that are 196 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,900 really dangerous. So this idea that it's kind of 197 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:07,900 a, you know, a wild west that people are doing all kinds of 198 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:13,800 Are risky and scammy, and dangerous things along with a 199 00:12:13,808 --> 00:12:15,900 lot of legitimate and exciting, building. 200 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:18,700 That pretty much reminds me of the early internet days and 201 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:21,900 there was a bunch of skepticism there, but I think there's FX 202 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:26,700 respect skepticism in our space of our space and it's for a 203 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:30,600 bunch of reasons. I think like there's a natural 204 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,100 skepticism about new tech areas, especially ones that have a lot 205 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:35,800 of venture capital pouring into them. 206 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,100 There's a natural skepticism about any You know, about 207 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:43,400 finance and finance as a field and the kind of people who hang 208 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,500 out in that space and in the tech space, right? 209 00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:50,400 Like right now check people are kind of out of fashion, the idea 210 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,500 that that like people who are building and running Tech, 211 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:58,500 things are like dangerous and antisocial and the tech industry 212 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:02,500 might not be good for the world. Like I don't buy that at all, 213 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:04,800 but it is kind of a fashionable View. 214 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,100 And I think we get some of that plus we get some of what happens 215 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:11,900 because we're new and people are trying a lot of a lot of things. 216 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:16,300 And some of them fail and then I think there's this other 217 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:18,700 dimension to it, which I can't quite explain that. 218 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:22,800 It's kind of become fashionable in some circles to say that, 219 00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,200 like, everything happening in the blockchain space, is just a 220 00:13:26,208 --> 00:13:30,300 giant Ponzi scheme, which I think to anyone who's into space 221 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:32,600 and paying attention is obviously wrong. 222 00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:36,500 But, you know, I think it's become fashionable in some 223 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,600 circles to say, this is all bogus and nothing. 224 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,100 Nothing. Still going on but you know I 225 00:13:41,108 --> 00:13:42,500 think could not be further from the truth. 226 00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:48,800 There are there are some people in this space who are liars and 227 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,800 dangerous and so on. But there's also a ton of people 228 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:59,100 doing really interesting and solid work and you know and 229 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,800 that's what that's what will last just like in the early 230 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,400 internet. There are a lot of people trying 231 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,500 crazy things and nobody remembers them but you know, 232 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:11,100 people do. Were those who actually built 233 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:15,400 valuable stuff over time. Yeah, absolutely. 234 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,600 Well, let's let's talk to you mentioned 2014, right? 235 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,900 You had this kind of early scaling work, you did that, you 236 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:25,500 know, kind of later became arbitration. 237 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:27,600 Can you talk a little bit about, you know, what was that? 238 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,500 2014 project. Yeah, well, so it started just 239 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:36,500 with the idea, the idea of which I think today, we would call 240 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:41,000 layer to, which was that you could have something, that was 241 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,300 basically a chick that if you had a base chain, which had 242 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:49,400 smart contracts or something like it on the base chain that 243 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,600 you could build a chain above it or off on the side and then 244 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,000 anchor, the security of that second chain sort of, in the 245 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,500 first chain. So you I have this thing where 246 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,600 you could have a chain running off on the side that it would 247 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,600 use only a little bit of the capacity of the base chain, but 248 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,200 if you did it, right, you could sort of inherit the security of 249 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,500 the base chain. So that was kind of the key idea 250 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:17,700 to move almost all of the work off the main chain, but have 251 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:22,000 just enough functionality on the main chain to maintain security 252 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,400 and the key idea that enabled that was what's now called 253 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,500 interactive fraud proofs, which is basically a way of resolving 254 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,300 a dispute Butte between two parties about what is the 255 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:35,900 correct outcome of a computation and do that in a way that is 256 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,600 that involves very little work, sort of on the base layer, the 257 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,000 in early 2014 is when that idea is sort of came along and for 258 00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:49,000 most of 2014, I had a diagram on my whiteboard in my office at 259 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,200 Princeton that had sort of a DOT was a diagram that sort of 260 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,900 showed the steps of an interactive fraud proof, and 261 00:15:55,900 --> 00:16:00,700 then in the fall of 2014. Master. 262 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,500 There was one of my colleagues are pandering, Noreen on taught 263 00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:08,900 a course on on blockchain technology on blockchain Tech 264 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,100 and all the students in the course had to do a course 265 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,700 project where they would design or build something. 266 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,000 So, a group of, I think six students got together and they 267 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,800 five or six, and they decided to build a version of this thing 268 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,700 that I had on my whiteboard. And one day sitting around a 269 00:16:27,708 --> 00:16:29,800 table, we came up with the name arbitral forum. 270 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:32,300 It. And so they built a kind of her 271 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:36,200 very early prototype Arbitron which didn't quite work, and 272 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,100 didn't have the features of anything like today system. 273 00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:41,000 Obviously, you know, it over eight years. 274 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,200 This system has evolved a lot, but basically, the first version 275 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,300 they built in Fall of 2014 and you can actually go on YouTube. 276 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,700 And if you search for something like Arbitron Princeton 277 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:55,500 students, or something like that, you'll see a video of 278 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:58,700 their course presentation. At the end of that semester that 279 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:03,400 they gave in January. 115 and they talk about, you know, basic 280 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,500 ideas that you might still recognized in arbitrament today. 281 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,900 So that was the very first version of arbitration. 282 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,500 What was the base layer that it was build on back then? 283 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:18,900 Well, that was the funny thing. There wasn't really a base 284 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:20,700 layer. We had to just assume that there 285 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,800 would be one. So the idea back then is you had 286 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,599 to build something that kind of simulated the base layer. 287 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:29,700 Yeah. So this was before Theory and 288 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:33,600 was you know, was at the point where you could use it. 289 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,900 So yeah there wasn't really a base layer at that point. 290 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,000 We knew there was going to be one and that you know we had a 291 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,800 design that what could be sort of agnostic as to what base 292 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,000 layer it was Much later when we decided to commercialize the 293 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,400 technology when we started our company, we said, okay, 294 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,100 aetherium is the place to go for a lot of, you know, for a lot of 295 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:57,200 reasons. We can talk about later. 296 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,400 Maybe. Yeah. 297 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,900 But initially it was agnostic and we just had a kind of 298 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,800 simulated base layer underneath. I'm curious. 299 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:12,600 What's this idea of like it kind of like a layer 2 was this like 300 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,500 the first time this came up I mean I know lightning Network 301 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,200 wasn't like that much later but I think it's maybe try to 2015 302 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,500 or something that lightning whether other ideas like this 303 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:28,100 around. I mean, I don't know of the idea 304 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:32,300 of a layer to being out there before I would hesitate to 305 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:33,900 claim. I was the first one to think of 306 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:40,100 it but but you know because good ideas pop up everywhere and 307 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,600 repeat his face. There was something not too 308 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,100 different from there was a much less efficient and probably less 309 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:54,900 practical thing that was related to the interactive fraud proofs. 310 00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:01,700 That was in academic paper from 2011, from by Ron Kennedy and 311 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:07,300 some other people called referee delegation of computation. 312 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,400 So I would say, you know, this sort of emerged out of a cloud 313 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,200 of ideas that were out there and you know as a researcher I often 314 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,600 felt like there were ideas swimming around in my head 315 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,600 trying to find the right way to latch onto each other to make a, 316 00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:27,200 you know, a like a design, or a solution. 317 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,500 And I feel like that's kind of what happened at least for me at 318 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,800 that time that there were ideas that people were talking and 319 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,800 thinking about, and like this particular combination of ideas 320 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,600 and the way that it could, you could use it to scale. 321 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,100 Smart Start of gelled around that time. 322 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,600 So anyway, so 2015, right? The students finished this 323 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,400 project. And so we have this thing which 324 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:57,600 is We're a sort of early pre prototype proof of Concepts 325 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,700 things, sort of existed. And this is where this this sort 326 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,000 of story. Evolution of Arbitron collides 327 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,800 with my story about working in government because my sort of my 328 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,700 life took a detour not long after that, which is I got 329 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:15,700 invited to go work at the White House. 330 00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,900 And so I did you don't say no to that kind of offer and so 331 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:23,000 arbitrary, just kind of got put on the Shelf during the whole 332 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:28,100 I'm, you know, being like a somewhat senior member of the 333 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,900 White House staff is the most all-consuming job I've ever 334 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:34,900 seen. And so there's no time for 335 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:40,900 anything else afterwards in January of 2017, at the end of 336 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,400 that Administration, they pushed all of our staffers out the 337 00:20:43,408 --> 00:20:46,000 door. And I went back to being an 338 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,600 academic and while I was there trying to sort of get my 339 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,600 bearings again and figure out what I was going to do for 340 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,300 research. Each these two, one day, these 341 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:58,600 two grad students, very km and Steven goldfeder walk into my 342 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,700 office and say, hey, remember that arbitrary thing from before 343 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:06,000 you went off to the government. I was like, oh yeah, that was, I 344 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,800 thought that was fun and so they were they said, let's do that 345 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,500 again. So like they came to me and said 346 00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:15,200 they wanted to work on this project with me and like turn it 347 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:21,700 into a more sort of mature and complete system and A year and a 348 00:21:21,708 --> 00:21:25,500 half later, we were the three co-founders of of off chain 349 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:27,000 labs. This is a company that's built, 350 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,300 the commercial version of our victims. 351 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:31,800 So that was sort of the Revival of arbitrary, which it was sort 352 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,600 of really came from the two of them coming back and sort of 353 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,700 reminding me of this and say we should do this. 354 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,100 And then one thing led to another, we had an academic 355 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:45,000 paper that we published in 2018, summer of 2018 and then like 356 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,000 almost immediately afterwards before we formed the company, 357 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,800 because it looked like something that had commercial potential 358 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,200 and we wanted to like actually get it out there into the hands 359 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,400 of users. Yes, if I interesting and 360 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,800 basically, I think the stress level of being a crypto founder 361 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,700 is put into perspective by having, you know, an even more 362 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:10,200 stressful, job beforehand. So I think you played this very 363 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,500 well. Yeah, just like there's frankly 364 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:18,400 no comparison because what we do today is important, it's 365 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,800 important to us, it's important to a lot of other people. 366 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,400 We take the responsibility of building this technology, really 367 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:30,500 seriously. But you know, the mistakes when 368 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:33,100 you're an advisor to the president of the United States 369 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:38,400 are higher that, like many of the decisions that he made or 370 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,500 issues, he worked on were literally life and death for 371 00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:46,400 other people and being involved in responding to issues like, 372 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,200 you know, terrorism, and or even, you know, even discussions 373 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,900 around Economic Policy where you're talking about, do you 374 00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:59,900 know, Where the decisions that are getting made can affect 375 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:03,100 whether tens or hundreds of thousands of people have jobs, 376 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:08,400 whether people lose their homes and have health care and all the 377 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,700 sorts of things, right being around, people who deal with 378 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,000 those issues. Every day, it makes the the 379 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,500 problems of the startup founder seen see mild by comparison. 380 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,100 I often tell people that that job completely recalibrated my 381 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:26,800 sense of of stress. So, you know, this seems like a 382 00:23:26,808 --> 00:23:31,100 breeze By comparison. I'm happy to hear that. 383 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:36,500 I will try that in my next life. So let's talk about how you guys 384 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,800 set it on using etherium as a base layer. 385 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,600 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we knew we wanted 386 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,600 to use. We wanted to pick a base layer 387 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:52,500 and aetherium seemed like so. And of course, this is one of 388 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,300 the steps from being an academic prototype where you say, hey 389 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:57,300 look, this is a super General thing. 390 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,100 It can run on top of any base layer. 391 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:03,700 It as, you know, basic smart contract functionality, but it's 392 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:05,700 going to be a product. It's got to run into on an 393 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:07,800 actual thing. And so the theory and seemed 394 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,200 like the obvious choice for a bunch of reasons. 395 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,900 First of all, you know it was it had had and still has the most 396 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:17,400 developers and the most users and so on. 397 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:22,200 I'm smart contract based technology. 398 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,800 We really like the etherium community and sort of the way 399 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,100 that it's governed and the sort of the opening openness of it 400 00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:33,800 and we really liked it as a community and we felt like it 401 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,900 was a place where we could be comfortable, where the sort of 402 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,200 thing, this sort of experience we were trying to build would be 403 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,000 consistent with what you Therian Community was going to do. 404 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,700 And we've always from the beginning scene, what we're 405 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:50,000 doing as not a sort of as a complement to etherium to try to 406 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,900 make a theory and better. So it seemed really obvious from 407 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:55,600 the beginning. The theorem was where we wanted 408 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,100 to be, that we had to focus on something and and pretty much 409 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,600 every criteria. And if they're in look like the 410 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,500 best place to be. We also thought you know, just 411 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:12,100 from a pure sort of in terms of like the the need for what we 412 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,100 were doing that. If barium was going to be the 413 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:18,700 system that hit congestion and an increasing in transaction 414 00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:24,100 fees, first part, you know. Partly because of technical 415 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,400 attributes of a theory but also because just there were so many 416 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,700 people there and the community was growing in such a nice way. 417 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,400 Jana makes a lot of sense. But let's let's talk a little 418 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,100 bit about roll ups because I think Roll-Ups is something 419 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:45,200 that, you know, most listeners will, like, have some kind of 420 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,100 awareness of, you know, they've heard of it, but at the same 421 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:51,400 time, probably don't quite understand it. 422 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,300 So can you explain what are roll-ups? 423 00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:57,300 Sure. Yeah. 424 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:04,600 So Roll Up is a, is a chain that operates as an independent chain 425 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:10,300 but that has its security anchored in of an existing Big 426 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:15,000 Chain in our case aetherium. And so the key idea is that we 427 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,100 keep the data, this sort of input data of the transactions. 428 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:23,000 What are the transactions that users submit and those get 429 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,300 recorded on the etherium chain? It, but we moved the computation 430 00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:32,300 and the storage. Basically, the heavy lifting of 431 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:37,400 operating the chain off onto a separate Place onto the separate 432 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,900 arbitration that has its own nodes, and its own its own 433 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:47,200 systems participating in it. But the key thing that makes 434 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,200 Roll-Ups I think really nice is that they're at least ones, like 435 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:58,100 ours is that they can. Great trust lessly meaning that 436 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,500 all the data that you need in order to be a first-class actor 437 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:05,500 in the system. In order to know exactly what 438 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,600 the chain has done and participate fully in the 439 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,800 protocol, that's all recorded on the etherium chain and then the 440 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,800 settlement of transactions that happen on the roll up. 441 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,000 Those are also somehow settled back to the L1 chain so that the 442 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,200 etherium chain nose. What is the State route of our 443 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,100 layer to chain. So, what that means is, you get 444 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,600 better performance and lower cost because we move a lot of 445 00:27:33,608 --> 00:27:38,300 the stuff off the etherium chain where gas and transactions are 446 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:41,600 are pretty expensive, because there's a lot of demand, but we 447 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,900 still can anchor the security of the roll-up chain in aetherium. 448 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:48,600 So, if you trust a theory, mm, and you believe at least one 449 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,100 member of our community is honest. 450 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:53,300 Then you can trust our chain as well. 451 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,300 So that's sort of the value proposition. 452 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,200 Not only of arbitrary, but of Roll-Ups generally, you can 453 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,100 inherit the security of the layer 13, mm chain. 454 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,700 But at the same time, you can move most of the work off of it, 455 00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:07,700 and so transactions are a lot cheaper. 456 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:13,900 And you can have more capacity So just a kind of clarify days, 457 00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:17,300 so let's say today I'm sending a transaction on you hear em, you 458 00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:20,300 know, I just sent you on here we can check on each of scan. 459 00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,900 Okay that's just my transaction but in this case I would send 460 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,900 the transaction you know to a bunch of arbitrary. 461 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,000 Mm nodes 1, 2 1. Yeah 21. 462 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:29,900 Arbitrary node. Yeah. 463 00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:33,300 So let me talk about the user experience of this, right? 464 00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:34,700 So if you're using a theory am, right? 465 00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,600 Like you said your, maybe use your using a wallet and your 466 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,000 wallet has the address of some know. 467 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:46,200 Foods that URL of some node in it so that when when you approve 468 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,200 a transaction your wallet puts your puts your signature or your 469 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,500 address is signature on it, your wallet will send that to two and 470 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:57,000 a three node right? And then the etherium magic 471 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800 happens on some time later you get back over, you see see the 472 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,800 result of your transaction, right? 473 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,900 If you're using arbitrary, mmm, it's basically the same user 474 00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:08,400 experience. In a sense, you can use the same 475 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,200 wallet and you instead of putting the address of an 476 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,100 aetherium node instead of your wallet having addressed him in a 477 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:19,600 theorem known and sending the transaction to the etherium 478 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,600 node. Your wallet is the address of an 479 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,600 arbitrary node and it sends the transaction to the arbitrary 480 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,900 node. So, we've done the work to make 481 00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,800 arbitrary mm compatible with the theory, mm. 482 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,800 So that the same transactions will run on it, you send 483 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,900 literally the same bits that your wallet would have sent to 484 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:41,200 the theory of node, it can send to the orbitrim node and Is 485 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,100 developing a smart contract to run on Arbitron, they'll send 486 00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:48,700 literally the same bits that they would send to an ethereum 487 00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,400 node in order to deploy the contract. 488 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:55,900 So you achieve a level of compatibility in the user 489 00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,500 experience? What happens after your 490 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:02,600 transaction gets to that node is a bit different and I can walk 491 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,400 through kind of what are the steps if you like. 492 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:11,400 But in terms of user experience or developer experience It 493 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,600 should it's designed to feel just like using aetherium accept 494 00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:18,600 that transaction. Fees are lower and response, 495 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,300 time is shorter. So yeah so if you so let me walk 496 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:24,200 through what actually happens with your transaction. 497 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,500 There's kind of a front end and a back end of a system. 498 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:30,500 Like Arbitron, there's sort of two phases. 499 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:34,000 The first one is sequencing and that's all about the system. 500 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,800 Receiving your transaction, putting all the transactions 501 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,600 into order. You know, one in front of the 502 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,900 other and then recording those ordered transactions and then 503 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:48,000 there's the second phase which is the execution and settlement 504 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,800 phase, which is the, which is the phase that figures out. 505 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,100 What is the result of executing? Those transactions in the 506 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,100 sequence that came out of the first base, right? 507 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,900 So let's talk about like a typical transaction. 508 00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:05,900 So user makes a transaction using a, some user interface on 509 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,700 their wallet, eventually, they click that button on their 510 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,900 wallet that It says to use to send the transaction, right? 511 00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,500 So that puts their digital signature on the transaction, 512 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,300 the transaction gets sent to an arbitrary node. 513 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,000 The arbitrary node will forward that transaction automatically 514 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,600 to the arbitrary sequencer which is a component that's receiving 515 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,600 transactions from all over the place and the sequencer emits an 516 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,900 ordered sequence of transactions so it publishes a feed of a 517 00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:39,200 real-time feed of transactions and so the know. 518 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,600 That you sent your transaction to might be subscribed to that 519 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,700 feed. So the node will see your 520 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:49,000 transaction in the feed. See what the result is, and send 521 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,400 that back to you immediately. It's usually around one second. 522 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:56,700 So and users love this, this part of the system, right? 523 00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:03,200 So then the sequence of the arbitrament sequencer will later 524 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,600 take your transaction and a bunch of transactions that came 525 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,200 in around the same time and put them all in. 526 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:13,500 Into a batch which is just like a bunch of the data of all the 527 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,100 different transactions packed one. 528 00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:18,700 After the other, it will compress that batch using a 529 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:24,100 using a, you know, a common compression algorithm and it 530 00:32:24,108 --> 00:32:27,100 will take that compressed batch and post it on the etherium 531 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:33,000 Chain as a theorem called data. And the reason that's important, 532 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:39,600 is that that data is that What the transactions were and what 533 00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:43,800 order the sequencer put them into is like fully recorded and 534 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,900 notarized on the etherium Chain, so everyone has access to it and 535 00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:51,900 there's no dispute about possible about what what the 536 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,900 transactions were or in what order tell us about the 537 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:56,200 sequencer. Sure. 538 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,300 So yeah. So the sequencer right now is a 539 00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:04,300 centralized component that are the we the arbitral team run and 540 00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:06,100 the sequencer follows a first come first. 541 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,200 Served policy for putting the transactions in order that is 542 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,100 first transaction to arrive, Java transaction, arrives 543 00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:17,700 earlier gets to be earlier in the ordering and So currently 544 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:22,600 it's the sequencer is trusted to establish an order on the 545 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,600 transactions but it's not trusted for any other purpose. 546 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,400 In particular, the sequence are can't create transactions out of 547 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,200 nothing. This transactions have to be 548 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,700 signed by the user right in the sequencer can't forge those 549 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:39,000 digital signatures. The sequencer could try to throw 550 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,400 some transactions away but there's a there's an anti 551 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,400 censorship mechanism that people can use to force their 552 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,800 transactions into the sequence. Even if the sequencer isn't 553 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,200 cooperating, the sequence are currently is a centralized 554 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,000 component and we've you know it's in our roadmap to To 555 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,700 decentralize the sequencer so that you have a committee of 556 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:02,100 sequencers and as long as a majority of those are honest 557 00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:04,500 than you get a fear of your sequence. 558 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:10,300 Yes, is one question I have in this is so the transacted a 559 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:14,500 transaction information right? It gets put into I guess each 560 00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:17,699 etherium block away. It gets put into the theorem 561 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:22,900 chain you know on some regularity but as an arbitrary 562 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:26,500 user does that mean I also have to sort of you know, Like the 563 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:30,199 confirmation or like the finality of my transaction is 564 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,400 like when it gets recorded on ethereum, or can I rely on it 565 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,400 before that? Yeah, so that you get definite 566 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,400 finality when your transaction is recorded on aetherium. 567 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,199 And so the and the main time Factor there is just the 568 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,300 etherium finality time, right? So if you're going to wait for, 569 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:56,600 it's a 20 etherium blocks for finality, you know, that's about 570 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,900 five minutes. So all the sequencer also 571 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:04,900 publishes this real-time feed of transactions and that's the 572 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:07,700 sequencers. Promise that Will record the 573 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:10,900 transactions in that order. And so, if you trust that 574 00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:13,300 promise, then you can use the result. 575 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:18,100 Then you can use those sequencers real-time feed to to 576 00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:21,700 know what the result of your transaction, what the ordering 577 00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:25,000 of transactions will be and your transaction will show up in that 578 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,000 feed in a bout a second. So most in practice most 579 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,600 applications choose to have their, you choose to have their 580 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,200 you. I rely on that sequencer fee but 581 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,300 you are testing the sequencers promise of order. 582 00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:42,300 But again it's only ordering it's not what the transactions 583 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:46,900 are that you have to that that you'd be trusting their so 584 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:49,700 that's your choice. Basically you can get one second 585 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,400 soft finality which means finality a unless the sequencer 586 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,700 is lying to you sequencers making you a promise to record 587 00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:58,800 the data in that order in the sequencer. 588 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,000 Always has the power to keep that promise. but fundamentally 589 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,700 you're relying on it to keep the promise, if you're relying on 590 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:11,000 that feed or you can wait until the transaction sequence is 591 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,900 recorded on the etherium chain and that is going to take as 592 00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:20,500 long as it there in finality does So the sequence then sends 593 00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:24,700 the compressed data to the theorem main chain. 594 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,000 So I mean, it has to pay gas for that and basically, there's no 595 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:35,100 there's no way of forcing validators or - to include a 596 00:36:35,107 --> 00:36:38,000 transaction, right? So how do you guys make sure 597 00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:41,400 that you can? You can definitely have that 598 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:49,100 call data on every etherium dock Yeah, so the first so this gets 599 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:52,000 to what happens in the second sort of the back end phase or 600 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,800 the execution phase of the protocol and there's kind of two 601 00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:01,700 ways of thinking about this. But the key idea in the, in this 602 00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:05,000 sort of the execution phase is that you have this sequence of 603 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,700 transactions and everybody knows and agrees on what the sequence 604 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:09,800 is. Because it's recorded on a 605 00:37:09,808 --> 00:37:14,300 theory right now. Given that sequence Of 606 00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:17,200 transactions. There's there's something called 607 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,500 the state transition function. The state transition function is 608 00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:25,600 a deterministic function, which takes the next transaction and 609 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,100 the current state of the chain and produces some changes to the 610 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:34,200 state of the chain possibly. And then also, possibly emits a 611 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,300 block on the arbitrary chain, so that's a fully deterministic 612 00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:39,700 function. And what that means is the 613 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:42,400 result of. It depends only on the current 614 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,900 state and the This transaction. And of course, the current state 615 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:50,100 only depends on the Genesis State and all of the 616 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,100 transactions in between. Right, so the current state and 617 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:56,800 any time is fully determinable from the sequence of 618 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,400 transactions that have been recorded and that's actually 619 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,200 really important. One of the things that makes 620 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,900 this a rollup is it? Anybody can start with the 621 00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:07,700 Genesis state of the arbitral chain and replay all of the 622 00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:11,800 transactions just on by themselves without needing to 623 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,900 sync to anything and then know what the Current state is but 624 00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:19,700 also if you're in real time, if you're a node and you're just 625 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:22,100 watching to see which transactions arrive in the 626 00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:25,700 sequence, you can execute that state transition function 627 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,300 yourself without needing to synchronize or get to consensus 628 00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,100 with anybody and you can know what the correct result of 629 00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,800 executing that sequence of transactions is right? 630 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,600 And there is a single correct result because the state 631 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,800 transition function is fully deterministic. 632 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:46,500 So most of the time, What nodes do is they watch the sequence 633 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:50,100 and then they execute the state transition function themselves 634 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:55,100 privately and any honest party can do that by executing the 635 00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:57,900 protocol and you could do that using a you know software that 636 00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,500 will give to you for free and you can like click the source 637 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,700 code for and so on. So that's how all honest parties 638 00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:08,600 can know what the result of executing the chain is, and 639 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,800 that's sort of the common case of what happens. 640 00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:15,900 But at this point, every honest party in the universe and 641 00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:20,500 principal knows what the correct outcome of the chain is except 642 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,400 the etherium chain, doesn't know. 643 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:25,500 And the reason the etherium chain doesn't know is it doesn't 644 00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:29,700 have enough gas to execute all of the arbitrament transactions, 645 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,400 right? The whole point of something 646 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,700 like arbitrament Able to do more work than aetherium can do. 647 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,100 And sort of you know by definition follows from that 648 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,900 that etherium. Can't emulate the folks the full 649 00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:47,500 execution of the arbitral chain. So we have this other piece we 650 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:51,300 call the roll up protocol which is how participants in the 651 00:39:51,308 --> 00:39:57,800 protocol can can cooperatively convince or prove to the 652 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,600 etherium chain, what the result of executing these transaction 653 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,000 is, in other words like what is the block? 654 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600 Ha, ha. Of the of of, you know, the next 655 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:14,400 block of the arbitrament chain. So there's a so we have the 656 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,800 settlement protocol which does that. 657 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,700 So does that sort of make sense there's like, to two aspects of 658 00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:22,300 this. If you're an honest party, you 659 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,700 can just watch the sequence and execute everything for yourself. 660 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,100 And you know what the unique correct answer is. 661 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,800 But also on the side, there's this protocol going on to 662 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,400 convince the etherium chain, what the result is. 663 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,400 And that's necessary for things like bridging or if some party 664 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,500 wants to be able to wants to The result without needing to 665 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,900 emulate everything themselves, right? 666 00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:47,300 You can go to the ethereum chain and say, look, the etherium 667 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:53,500 chain has confirmed or not sort of notarized a particular block 668 00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:57,100 header hash for the Arboretum chain and so, you know, that 669 00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:00,900 that's good. And how do you make sure that 670 00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:04,300 the block had a hash is included in each etherium block? 671 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:07,900 So, I mean, basically you have no control over the miners right 672 00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:10,300 or the validator. So, in principle, they could 673 00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:12,800 exclude you. Right. 674 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,700 So it's not included in every etherium block. 675 00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,200 It's just included, periodically in practice. 676 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,600 It's every few hours. There's a checkpoint of the 677 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,200 arbitral chain will get recorded onto the ethereum chain, and so, 678 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:26,900 you don't need to get it into every block. 679 00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:29,600 You just need to sort of get a checkpoint in periodically. 680 00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:35,400 Okay, so basically the hot finality is is then not a minute 681 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,500 like the soft finality, but a couple of hours until it's 682 00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:44,900 included on the main chain. So but no actually so finality 683 00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:49,000 if by finality you mean that every honest party knows and 684 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,200 agrees on what the result is, then you have that back in the 685 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,300 beginning, once your transaction is sequenced, right? 686 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:59,700 Because once your transaction has been sequenced, then the 687 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:03,500 result of your transaction is is deterministically. 688 00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:07,500 Knowable to everyone that is every honest party knows what 689 00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:08,700 their can figure out for themselves. 690 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:11,700 What the result of your transaction is, and this sort of 691 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,000 Of final recording of the checkpoint on aetherium. 692 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,100 This is just a theory. Mm, finding out what the correct 693 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:20,500 result is which everyone else already knew. 694 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,700 The thing is basically, if you say you inherit security from a 695 00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:29,900 theorem, then then basically you, you need to you need to 696 00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:33,800 wait until it's been included in the main chain. 697 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,100 Ah, so there's one, there's one more piece that I haven't said 698 00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:40,000 yet, which I hope will close this Loop. 699 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,700 And that, is that this the piece of the protocol that records 700 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,100 these checkpoints back onto aetherium. 701 00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:52,900 This piece is fully trustless. What that Means is anyone honest 702 00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:57,300 party can force the correct result to be recorded and so 703 00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:02,200 that means that you don't need to rely on anyone else to ensure 704 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,300 that your transaction will be recorded back onto the etherium 705 00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:07,400 chain. You yourself can force that to 706 00:43:07,408 --> 00:43:10,300 happen. In fact, any any party can force 707 00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:14,100 the correct recording. The recording of the correct 708 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:16,500 result. So if you believe that 709 00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:18,300 aetherium, it will operate securely. 710 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:21,600 And if you believe that at least one participant, To the Arbitron 711 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,800 protocol is honest, then you have a guarantee that only the 712 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,600 correct that the correct result and only the correct result will 713 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,200 be recorded on aetherium and so you need there to be just one 714 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,800 honest party and that can be you. 715 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:41,700 That's assuming the sequencer has given the honest has sort of 716 00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:44,400 broadcast honest ordering of transactions. 717 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,200 Well, so the sequencer in effect. 718 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:53,000 The sequencers, the sequencers ordering is well, the sequencers 719 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,700 ordering is By definition, the truth of the order of 720 00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,000 transactions. In other words, the sequencer 721 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,900 decides the order and then this execution layer determines, what 722 00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:07,800 is the correct result of executing? 723 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,900 The transactions in that order sequencer doesn't doesn't make 724 00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:15,800 any claims about the results of executing those transactions. 725 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:21,000 It just says Here's a set of transactions you can think of it 726 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:26,200 like a like an ordered mempool if you're thinking in analogy to 727 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,400 aetherium right? Aetherium has the mempool which 728 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,400 is all the transactions that have been submitted but not yet 729 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,100 executed, right? So the arbitral sequencer 730 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:37,600 produces something that's like an ordered mempool. 731 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,200 It's a set of transactions that have been submitted and they're 732 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,700 in some order. And then what the execution 733 00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:49,500 phase of the protocol does is it takes those transactions And 734 00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:54,100 runs them or tries to run them in order, right? 735 00:44:54,100 --> 00:44:56,300 So the sequencer has established an order. 736 00:44:56,900 --> 00:45:00,800 And then the job of the execution and settlement phase 737 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,400 is to figure out what is the one. 738 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,200 Correct result of executing, those transactions in that 739 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,200 order. Yeah, so that makes sense. 740 00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:18,600 But of course you know you said before the sequencer does, you 741 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:24,200 know, sort of At first in, you know, orders it by the order 742 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,800 received and of course that's something they could lie about 743 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,800 no. Yes, that's right. 744 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,600 The sequencer can lie about ordering. 745 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,800 We believe that a sequencer that does that regularly would get 746 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,600 caught but over time, you know, as we move to a distributed 747 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:49,100 sequencer, the idea is you have a set of sequencers and you 748 00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,400 brought you multicast your transaction to all of them and 749 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,700 then each of the sequencers, publishes, its order, which it 750 00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:58,400 claims was the order of arrival at it. 751 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,300 And then there's a kind of, so Then you have like the published 752 00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,300 sequence of each of the sequencer instances and then 753 00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:09,100 there's a sort of fair merging algorithm which merges those 754 00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:13,400 sequences. And it it produces a the fair 755 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,400 merge algorithm has this property which is which is 756 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,900 roughly that if transaction a is ahead of transaction be in a 757 00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:26,800 super majority of those sequencers outputs, then it will 758 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,400 be a hit will be ahead of be in the merge. 759 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:33,900 So if you believe that you know a magician that a super majority 760 00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:38,400 of the sequence or instances are honestly doing first come first 761 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,800 serve then the sort of hold distributed sequencer. 762 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,500 Part of the protocol will produce first come first, serve. 763 00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:51,500 And this will actually in effect solve the Mev issue, right? 764 00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:54,400 Basically, we currently the in the centralized in the 765 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,600 centralized sequencer in principle, the sequencer could 766 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,300 extract everything that would on maintain be known as Mev 767 00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:05,500 includes but that's not good in principle. 768 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:07,000 Yes. And I mean, I'll take your word 769 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:08,300 for it that it currently doesn't. 770 00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:11,100 But basically, if you have that sequence, the sequence are 771 00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:12,900 competition. Where basically the relative 772 00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:18,800 ordering is kind of is Kind of compared between lots of 773 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,300 different sequences that entire can of worms is closed, right? 774 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,700 That's right, that's it. That's exactly right. 775 00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:31,500 Both parts of that and dishonest sequencer could extract a lot of 776 00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:35,500 value presumably by by reordering or by selling 777 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:40,000 auctioning off position and so on it could that we currently 778 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,600 run the sequencer and we do not do that but long run. 779 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,800 The solution is to move to distributed sequencer and that 780 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,000 way you don't have to trust any one party. 781 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,600 It is the case now that the sequence we produce is visible 782 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,300 to everyone. And so if we cheated blatantly 783 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:04,300 it would be evident also you know we the arbitral team have a 784 00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:09,500 real incentive to not make our system terrible in that way by 785 00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:13,000 cheating our users but nonetheless right obviously 786 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,300 distributed sequencer is is better and that is where we are 787 00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:20,100 headed. And I'm curious since you 788 00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:23,100 brought up the topic of Mev which, you know, I think 789 00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:25,300 definitely become like a huge topic right there. 790 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:29,300 Like, lots of people think about this does sound like pretty 791 00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:31,500 elegant actually but I'm curious. 792 00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:35,700 Does that actually, you know, it for the week is said, does that 793 00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:39,600 fully remove Mev or is there still some degree of Meb? 794 00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:42,900 Yeah. Oh, that's a super. 795 00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:47,100 That's a super deep question because it partly depends what 796 00:48:47,100 --> 00:48:49,600 you mean by Meb. Right? 797 00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:55,500 Certainly timing matters. And there are circumstances 798 00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:59,600 where if Alice can see that the thing happens and get a 799 00:48:59,607 --> 00:49:04,700 transaction in in reaction to it faster than Bob, can that Alice 800 00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:10,600 would be benefited, right? And so, The ability to react 801 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,200 quickly to events more quickly than other people and get a 802 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,000 transaction in faster than someone else. 803 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,700 Actually does benefit people and the thing about it first arrival 804 00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:22,800 policy is that, you know, someone can get an advantage by 805 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:29,300 being closed in network distance to to the sequencer course, when 806 00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,800 you distribute the sequencer, if the instances are all over the 807 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,900 world, you know, that becomes a more complicated game. 808 00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:37,900 So, there are issues around ordering the other thing to say 809 00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:43,900 about Mev is that Or the idea that of sort of exploiting order 810 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:48,200 for in order to get to make money, there are circumstances 811 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:55,100 where people wear like a regular user can benefit from either 812 00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:58,400 reordering or from selling the position in the order. 813 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,300 So here's here's a good example suppose that you want to do a 814 00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:06,400 trade in an amm like say you know swap or or or an equivalent 815 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,100 and your trade is big enough that it would actually move. 816 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,100 Move the price in that, you know, in that automated market. 817 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,800 So if the price was sort of at the sort of global market 818 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,500 equilibrium price and your trade would move the price a little 819 00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:25,500 way away from that. There's an Arbitrage opportunity 820 00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:29,100 that is available to whoever can get a transaction in immediately 821 00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:33,000 behind yours, right. So if you're the person who's 822 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,600 going to do this first trade, it sure would be nice. 823 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:41,200 So you might say, well, Great. I'll do the first trade and then 824 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,100 I'll exploit that Arbitrage opportunity, myself and make 825 00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:46,500 some profit. The thing is to exploit the 826 00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,700 Arbitrage opportunity, you have to do the opposite of your 827 00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:52,200 initial trait. So you know, if you wanted to do 828 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,400 the initial trade, you're not going to do that but there is a 829 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,000 profitable opportunity to be right behind you in the 830 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,000 sequence. And if you could sell that, then 831 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,900 you would actually you could actually benefit from it, right? 832 00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:07,800 You the end user and in fact the economics of this, get a little 833 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,900 complicated but If you do a trade, that is big enough to 834 00:51:10,900 --> 00:51:14,400 move the market, you've suffered a little bit of loss due to Stew 835 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,100 slippage. In determine out in the in the 836 00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:20,800 jargon and you can actually regain that by selling the 837 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,800 position right behind you in the ordering. 838 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:28,000 So, there are cases where, like clever ordering or bundling of 839 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,300 transactions can be beneficial to users and not just a way to 840 00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:34,800 sort of a drain value away from from users. 841 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,700 And so personally, I'm a Believer in opt-in. 842 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,200 Transaction bundling and I think that's the direction this is 843 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,800 going to go and systems. That emphasize fairness that is 844 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,100 you as a user can submit your transaction directly to the 845 00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:57,700 sequencer and get You know, first in first out ordering or 846 00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:02,800 if you think that there's a, if you think that you might benefit 847 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,400 from having your transaction bundled with other people's by 848 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,100 some party, you you trust, you could submit your transaction 849 00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:12,900 through them, send it to them and they, you know, produce a 850 00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:15,600 bundle in and submit it. So this gets kind of 851 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,400 complicated, but the bottom line is that there are circumstances 852 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,600 where it's beneficial to users to be able to do bundling of 853 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:28,200 transactions. and, If that is purely voluntary, a thing that 854 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:33,000 happens for you because you opt into it, I think that's a good 855 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,900 thing. But the idea that someone is 856 00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:37,000 sitting there watching your transactions would like 857 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,600 reordering it so that they can steal some, you know, some 858 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,900 fractional eat from you every time you do a thing that's 859 00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:46,500 really harmful. So yeah. 860 00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:50,200 So I mean we've been thinking a lot about how can we minimize 861 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:55,000 Mev and how could we make it so that people who want to opt 862 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,900 into? Transaction ordering can do it. 863 00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:00,000 And we've been trying to build a kind of ecosystem that allows 864 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,600 that to happen. But a big part of that is this 865 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,400 sort of first in first out or first-come, first-served 866 00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,700 approach to sequencing which we think is really important and 867 00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:12,300 important part of our model and makes it not completely 868 00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:18,400 resistant to Mev but much more resistant than alternatives. 869 00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:20,800 I think that's really commendable. 870 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,700 So, I think, I mean, in this space, there's this prevalent 871 00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:26,800 narrative that Mev is actually good because it, secures the 872 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,400 network. And I think this is a false 873 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,600 narrative and I don't, I don't understand why more people don't 874 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,400 call it out. Because obviously, it's the 875 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,700 user, who pays for it. If you actually do the analysis 876 00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:42,800 of how much is spent on Mev, it's around one percent of total 877 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,200 transaction volume, so it's huge. 878 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,700 It's actually it's humongous. So basically if you guys where 879 00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:53,700 to To tweak your sequencer. You could be enormously rich 880 00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:56,400 with this. But yeah, so it's I mean it's a 881 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,200 huge. It's a huge market. 882 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,300 And I think basically finding finding ways that are provably 883 00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:05,100 fan that kind of picked with that super important. 884 00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:10,100 I need I feel like I need to do a mini rant here because I think 885 00:54:10,107 --> 00:54:13,900 you're exactly right. That this like Mev extraction is 886 00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:17,600 it's a tax on users but it's a text that's hidden. 887 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,700 You don't know how much Which was extracted from you or when, 888 00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:27,600 and I think that's not how fees that's not how Network should 889 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,600 fund themselves. If you're going to fund your 890 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,900 network, you should do it from fees that are visible to users. 891 00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:36,800 So you users know what they're paying so that it's in that 892 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,500 wallet pop up that when you do this transaction, this is what 893 00:54:40,500 --> 00:54:42,700 you pay for the transaction that it's visible. 894 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,200 And, you know, I'm a big believer in that the cost of 895 00:54:47,207 --> 00:54:50,300 transactions should be visible, they should There and they 896 00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:52,700 should be related to the cost of operating the network. 897 00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:54,700 And I think Mev is none of those things. 898 00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:58,300 I mean the extraction is not visible, it's not designed with 899 00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:01,500 fairness in mind and there's no reason to believe that it 900 00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:04,300 collects the right amount to fund the network, right? 901 00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:07,000 The right amount is enough to actually pay for operating the 902 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:11,300 network but not more. I just think Mev is really poor 903 00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:14,500 way of funding anything. Yeah. 904 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,100 Sorry, and with apologies for, no, I'm cold. 905 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,400 Are you on the same page yet? This is this is exactly my son. 906 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:27,200 So yeah, let's back up a little bit and talk about the 907 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,400 above-average from notes though. So basically, so basically, when 908 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,400 I have a have a transaction I will send it to a node. 909 00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:36,400 Who is that note, what does it do? 910 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,900 And how is it incentivised? Sure the node could be. 911 00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:43,000 Anyone can run a node, you can run a node, you know, you could 912 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,500 just download the software and run it. 913 00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:48,600 We have some. So I mean the answer who is the 914 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,300 node Is, it could be anybody. A lot of people will use a 915 00:55:53,300 --> 00:55:55,800 service provider, I think it's a lot like etherium. 916 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,100 You can run into it yourself, or you could use a big service 917 00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:02,500 provider. And if your Alchemy or any of 918 00:56:02,500 --> 00:56:06,700 the companies in that space, it's kind of up to you. 919 00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:11,000 In terms of how they get paid, there's different answers to 920 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,300 that. If you run the node yourself, 921 00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:15,800 you know, you're running it for your own reasons and you don't 922 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,700 have to pay yourself if you're using a Herschel service that 923 00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:23,900 runs nodes. Then you know they're going to 924 00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:25,100 have some kind of business model. 925 00:56:25,100 --> 00:56:26,800 Maybe they have a free tier and you pay. 926 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,200 If you use it a lot, maybe you use a node that's run by an 927 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,000 application provider. And their business model is they 928 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:35,400 want you to use their application. 929 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,200 They have some way of making money from their application and 930 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,600 they're going to run a node to make that easier for you. 931 00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:45,000 So I mean, it's essentially the same answer is on aetherium. 932 00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:47,900 It, there needs to be some reason for a person to run a 933 00:56:47,900 --> 00:56:50,300 node and it might just be Self-interest. 934 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,500 It might be part of either. It might be a part of a business 935 00:56:54,500 --> 00:56:57,000 model where they're, you know, they want people, they want to 936 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,800 see this activity and happened more and so they want to 937 00:57:00,808 --> 00:57:03,100 facilitate it. I know we run, we the arbitral 938 00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:07,200 team we run. We run some some nodes node 939 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,300 Services ourselves but if I run any theory of node I make money 940 00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:14,700 off of it, right? If yeah, if you're mining you 941 00:57:14,700 --> 00:57:16,100 do. Although it's not a great 942 00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:18,800 business to be in if you're just have a regular computer, right? 943 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,500 You can buy mining rig and then maybe the economic setup work 944 00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:23,500 out, it totally. But if I mistake of, for 945 00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:30,100 instance, on East to, yeah, you do make some money and we we 946 00:57:30,100 --> 00:57:32,800 don't have an incentive program for nodes. 947 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,300 We found that we don't really need it as of yet. 948 00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:39,500 So the other thing to say is there are different. 949 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,600 Just like in aetherium their different roles that node can 950 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,800 play can be A regular node which is mostly servicing user 951 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,100 requests, keeping track of the state. 952 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,000 It could be what's called a validator, which means that it 953 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,900 participates in the protocol, the settlement protocol to 954 00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:59,500 settle the results of transactions to to etherium, or 955 00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:01,400 could play a special role like the sequencer. 956 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,600 There's only one of those someday. 957 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,700 There will be there will be a limited Committee of them 958 00:58:06,700 --> 00:58:12,700 someday But most nodes are just are like non are like nonce 959 00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:16,200 taking notes in a theory, okay? And thus taking notes. 960 00:58:16,300 --> 00:58:20,600 What about those? Just taking notes currently 961 00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:24,400 right again. Anyone can let's see. 962 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:29,400 So The protocol allows anyone to run it, we currently have a 963 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:34,800 limited list of parties who are doing it but the the direction 964 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:40,100 we're going is toward a model where anyone can run a validator 965 00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:43,900 and there are some parties who are invited to run a validator 966 00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:47,400 and they are compensated for that with you know some funds 967 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,400 that come from from from the user fees from the transaction 968 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,700 fees because it's trustless and anyone kept sorry. 969 00:58:55,800 --> 00:59:02,100 Anyone can run a validator. We actually don't know who in 970 00:59:02,100 --> 00:59:05,600 general, you, you don't know and can't know who's running 971 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,600 validator. So that's actually a feature 972 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,900 that you know, if you put yourself in the shoes of a 973 00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:13,400 person who's thinking of cheating and they're going to 974 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,900 ask, they're asking, is there a validator who's going to call me 975 00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:21,600 out and, and take my steak the fact that you can't know who 976 00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,400 might be running. A validator is actually pretty 977 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,000 valuable the sir. Out of Submarine, validators are 978 00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:30,800 an important aspect of the security model. 979 00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:36,000 So what happens to the transaction fees that users pay 980 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,700 because basically sending transactions on a Bertram mean, 981 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,600 it's substantially cheaper, they are not then on May net, but 982 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:45,500 it's not free. It's like on the order of like, 983 00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:48,900 a dollar per transaction or so. Yeah. 984 00:59:49,100 --> 00:59:55,600 So that the, the short answer is it goes to pay the costs of 985 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,800 operating the chain. But let me give you the long 986 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,600 answer which explains what those are the Biggest cost of 987 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:07,000 operating, the chain is recording that sequence of 988 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:08,900 transactions on the etherium change. 989 01:00:08,900 --> 01:00:15,900 Its aetherium gas, right? And so the sequencer pays the 990 01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:19,500 biggest, the biggest source of cost is the L1 gas that the 991 01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:22,400 sequencer has to pay to record the track. 992 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,900 The biggest part of the fees that you pay actually go to the 993 01:00:26,900 --> 01:00:29,300 sequencer to reimburse it for those costs. 994 01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:37,000 Other fees go to to to to cover other parties costs and so 995 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:42,200 basically that money all goes to pay for the sequencers cost. 996 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:47,200 It goes to validators and it goes to sort of a core set of 997 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:53,700 nodes and over time, this will over time, we're moving toward 998 01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:58,400 more transparency in where those fees go the algorithm for 999 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,500 determining the feasibility. Is is, you know, we're fully 1000 01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:03,700 transparent about what that is and we've talked about why the 1001 01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:08,800 fees are set the way they are. But basically that the short the 1002 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,700 short and the short version of that is the fees part of the 1003 01:01:12,700 --> 01:01:17,500 fees, go to reimbursing, the sequencer for L1 gas costs and 1004 01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:22,600 the rest is L2, gas, which goes which is paying for the sort of 1005 01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:29,800 the core nodes and and and some validators so if you think like 1006 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,900 a transaction fees that uses pay, an orbitrim will these kind 1007 01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:40,400 of be proportional to you know roughly the same transaction 1008 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:45,400 fees that you know likes you know, some kind of percentage 1009 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,800 Well, roughly speaking. Yes, that the component of 1010 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,900 transaction fees that is covering L1 gasps. 1011 01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:59,000 You know how much you have to pay for the L1 cost of your 1012 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,600 transaction? That is going to depend on. 1013 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,300 What is the L1? That's basically, right. 1014 01:02:04,300 --> 01:02:07,200 The old one base fee goes up then the sequencer has to pay 1015 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,300 more to record your transaction. And you're going to end up or 1016 01:02:10,300 --> 01:02:13,100 you or other Trends ll2. Transactions are going to end up 1017 01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:17,200 paying for that, right? So because that's the biggest It 1018 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,400 in practice when the etherium gas price. 1019 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:26,200 Base fee goes up, the cost of arbitrary, transactions goes up 1020 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,200 as well. It lags a little bit for some 1021 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:33,000 technical reasons, it takes a little while for the arbitral 1022 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,700 mechanism to adjust but fundamentally the Arbitron costs 1023 01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:43,200 follow the etherium gas costs and essentially it's the cost of 1024 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,300 recording data. Now, the theorem is moving 1025 01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:50,700 towards Changing its data model in ways that reduce the cost of 1026 01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:52,500 the kind of data that Roll-Ups me. 1027 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:57,600 And so this so-called this is the dunk sharding or Proto dunk 1028 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,000 sharding stuff that people talk about in aetherium research 1029 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,600 circles. And once that gets deployed on 1030 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:10,100 aetherium, then the cost of recording roll up data on 1031 01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:14,600 aetherium will get much lower. We think and therefore the cost 1032 01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,600 of arbitrary transactions and transactions on The Roll-Ups to 1033 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,600 will go down a lot but that's basically right. 1034 01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:24,400 The first approximation most of your transaction fee goes to 1035 01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:27,700 paying to record your transactions data on the old 1036 01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:32,000 launching. You said earlier that basically, 1037 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:38,500 I can force a settlement on L1 as and as a participant in are 1038 01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:40,600 to there. Any way I can actually grief 1039 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,000 with the synthesizer by forcing it to settle much more often 1040 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,700 than it usually would and thus driving. 1041 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:52,400 Bring up the fees. So if you greet, you can post 1042 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:59,600 more checkpoints as a validator but that's only going to cost 1043 01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,500 you. That's only going to cost you 1044 01:04:02,500 --> 01:04:05,100 money because as a validator if you're getting paid as a 1045 01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:10,900 validated you getting paid per time, not paid per per post so 1046 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:17,400 that's only going to raise your own costs and If, if the 1047 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,300 checkpoints that you publish our honest, then it doesn't require 1048 01:04:21,300 --> 01:04:25,800 anyone else to respond on chain. This is the optimistic part of 1049 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:27,500 arbitrariness, and optimistic roll-up. 1050 01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:31,900 And the optimistic part is the idea that if somebody posts a 1051 01:04:31,900 --> 01:04:38,500 correct checkpoint that everyone else just does nothing and the 1052 01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:40,300 system. After then there's a then 1053 01:04:40,300 --> 01:04:43,500 there's a challenge window a window of time in which after 1054 01:04:43,500 --> 01:04:47,100 someone posts a claim about At the checkpoint should be, 1055 01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,500 there's a window of time in which anyone else can object. 1056 01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:54,000 Right. The person who posted the 1057 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,300 initial claim is staked on that claim and they they will lose 1058 01:04:57,300 --> 01:05:00,200 that stake, if they're lying, but basically there's a window 1059 01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,300 of time in which anyone else can object to it, and if no one 1060 01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:06,000 objects. After that window of time 1061 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,900 challenge window has passed, then the system will accept it. 1062 01:05:08,900 --> 01:05:12,400 And that's obviously the common case because as a validator, 1063 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,900 your incentive is to not post a false checkpoint. 1064 01:05:14,900 --> 01:05:17,600 If you do, you're going to lose lose, lose your steak. 1065 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,100 And so your incentive is opposed to correct, checkpoint. 1066 01:05:21,100 --> 01:05:22,900 And then everyone else is in. Enter visited. 1067 01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:24,100 Look at that. Checkpoint say. 1068 01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,600 Yeah, it's correct. I'm going to just wait until for 1069 01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,000 the system to accept it and then the system will accept it. 1070 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,000 That's sort of the common case, but if someone posts a false 1071 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,200 checkpoint, then you can come in and say, no, that's wrong. 1072 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,600 Here's the right result and you can stake on that and then 1073 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,500 there's going to be a challenge protocol that happens between 1074 01:05:44,900 --> 01:05:49,300 the false Staker and you the honest acre. 1075 01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:54,300 You will win that challenge, because honest party can always 1076 01:05:54,300 --> 01:05:57,000 win the challenge protocol. That's the sort of a guarantee 1077 01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,300 of the protocol, and then you'll take half the stake of the loser 1078 01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:05,200 and the other half gets burned. So, you as an honest party, can 1079 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,000 post a correct checkpoint. You can do that whether or not 1080 01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:10,900 anyone else posts, an incorrect one. 1081 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,700 And if anyone disagrees with you assuming you're behaving, 1082 01:06:15,700 --> 01:06:18,900 honestly, you will defeat them and take their steak. 1083 01:06:20,300 --> 01:06:23,000 Okay, fair enough. But how, as an honest, validator 1084 01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,500 a, my incentivize to post a checkpoint. 1085 01:06:25,700 --> 01:06:30,000 Do I get extra credit for that word because I incur the gas 1086 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,700 phase, right? That's right. 1087 01:06:32,700 --> 01:06:34,400 That's right. So whoever does that incurs a 1088 01:06:34,408 --> 01:06:37,500 gas fee and we don't currently have a mechanism to reimburse 1089 01:06:37,500 --> 01:06:41,300 that gas fee. Currently we post, we are our 1090 01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:44,200 team post, correct checkpoints ourselves, and we just eat the 1091 01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:49,300 cost of doing that. But if we don't, then someone 1092 01:06:49,300 --> 01:06:52,100 else can do it and they can they would have to absorb the cost 1093 01:06:52,100 --> 01:06:54,900 themselves of posting. The checkpoint checkpoint gets 1094 01:06:54,900 --> 01:07:00,600 posted every few hours, so it's not a large cost, it's a it's a, 1095 01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:04,100 you know, medium-sized aetherium transaction, every few hours. 1096 01:07:05,700 --> 01:07:10,900 The biggest cost of L1 gas cost of the system by far is the data 1097 01:07:10,900 --> 01:07:15,000 recording that the sequencer does and it does get reimbursed 1098 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,700 by fees. We will probably eventually move 1099 01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:22,000 to a scheme where the system reimburses the gas costs of 1100 01:07:22,500 --> 01:07:26,400 someone who posts a checkpoint as long as they don't post it 1101 01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,200 too. Often you started talking about 1102 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:34,600 the optimistic part of the roll-up, so kind of putting this 1103 01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,400 into the larger context. So we've actually had several 1104 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,500 other guests on before to talk about, roll up. 1105 01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:46,500 So basically, we've spoken with electric house key from CK sink 1106 01:07:46,500 --> 01:07:50,600 and Eli band, sun. And from the optimism, we've 1107 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:55,100 also had the optimism team on. So, I understand the fundamental 1108 01:07:55,100 --> 01:08:00,100 difference between ZK roll up. So basically you've you post a 1109 01:08:00,100 --> 01:08:04,400 fundamental proof and basically that that proof is final. 1110 01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:07,700 You get instant finality to only doesn't work for all kinds of 1111 01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:13,100 transactions, but whatever. And then you have the optimistic 1112 01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:16,899 roll up. So how does Was a Bertram 1113 01:08:17,700 --> 01:08:21,100 designed differently from how optimism works. 1114 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,300 So there's a bunch of differences. 1115 01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:29,200 One of the biggest differences with optimism in particular, is 1116 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,200 that? Arbitron is a, our Bertram has a 1117 01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:36,899 fully working and integrated fraud proof system that is, and 1118 01:08:36,899 --> 01:08:39,899 we've had that since the beginning, right? 1119 01:08:39,899 --> 01:08:43,800 So we actually have the fraud proof system in existence and 1120 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,200 turned on and it's integrated with the rest of the system. 1121 01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:53,000 So that's a pretty significant difference, you know? 1122 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,100 It's not Something that we say we're going to integrate in the 1123 01:08:55,100 --> 01:08:58,000 future. In fact, we're proud of this. 1124 01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,800 We are the only Roll-Ups evm compatible roll-up system on 1125 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,200 aetherium that actually has its security proof mechanism turned 1126 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,700 on and working. This is one of the harder parts 1127 01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:15,200 of not only just building a fraud proof or correctness proof 1128 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:18,500 mechanism, but actually getting a complete protocol that 1129 01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:20,899 includes it is pretty hard to do. 1130 01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:25,500 And that's a reason why. Why a lot of projects either 1131 01:09:25,500 --> 01:09:29,100 haven't done it or are just promising for the future but 1132 01:09:29,100 --> 01:09:32,500 we're you know we're proud of having every version of Arbitron 1133 01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:34,700 has had fully working in integrated products. 1134 01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:37,100 I think that's a significant difference. 1135 01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:40,700 You can talk about differences in design for a long time. 1136 01:09:40,700 --> 01:09:45,200 The biggest design difference between arbitrary and optimism 1137 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:50,100 was that we used interactor fraud proofs and they used a 1138 01:09:50,100 --> 01:09:54,000 non-interactive fraud proof mechanism that is they had It 1139 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,800 was an optimistic system, but if there was a dispute between 1140 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,100 parties, we would resolve it in different ways. 1141 01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:05,500 But about six months ago, maybe a bit more optimism pivoted and 1142 01:10:05,500 --> 01:10:09,800 started using, or said they would use interactive fried 1143 01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,800 proofs, which is the arbitrarily approach. 1144 01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,900 I mean, I think there's some technical differences between 1145 01:10:15,900 --> 01:10:22,000 how the system works. We one of them is the first come 1146 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:25,400 first served sequencing system which you know, we talked about 1147 01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,100 a bunch of before, that's a thing that arbitration does and 1148 01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:31,200 optimism has a different approach that involves 1149 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,000 auctioning off the right to reorder transactions. 1150 01:10:34,500 --> 01:10:39,100 But probably the system that is closest in design to arbitral 1151 01:10:39,100 --> 01:10:41,700 among the ones that are out. There is his optimism. 1152 01:10:42,300 --> 01:10:45,400 And, of course, you know, other systems that the other systems, 1153 01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,700 that you mentioned, use, ZK technology, which is very Type 1154 01:10:49,700 --> 01:10:53,300 of thing which and they're the main difference is between 1155 01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:57,300 optimistic and CK is in my mind is cost. 1156 01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,400 Optimistic systems are much cheaper by orders of magnitude 1157 01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,500 to produce the proof. And the reason is that, the 1158 01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:10,500 whole part of the protocol, where you generate a very 1159 01:11:10,500 --> 01:11:14,800 complicated cryptographic proof and you know, the ZK folks 1160 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,900 always talk about how cheap it is to verify the proof. 1161 01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:23,400 But thing is EK proof is extremely expensive and an 1162 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,900 optimistic system, you don't have to do that. 1163 01:11:26,100 --> 01:11:30,400 The even in the worst case, the optimistic system, the cost of 1164 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,800 proving is much much lower. You could you could do proving 1165 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,800 on an ordinary machine for an optimistic system, in the case 1166 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,700 of a dispute. But because of the optimistic 1167 01:11:41,700 --> 01:11:44,500 nature of it, if there's not a dispute, you don't have to 1168 01:11:44,500 --> 01:11:48,200 produce a proof at all. And that, of course, is the 1169 01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,000 common case and it's, it's vastly cheaper. 1170 01:11:52,300 --> 01:11:56,700 Well thanks that's very helpful. I I wanted to kind of come back 1171 01:11:56,700 --> 01:11:58,300 to top. You have you touched on a little 1172 01:11:58,300 --> 01:12:02,200 bit before which is sort of the topic of like economics of it. 1173 01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,300 So we you know, we talked about that, you know, this is he and 1174 01:12:05,300 --> 01:12:08,500 most of the fee goes towards paying the L1 gas. 1175 01:12:09,700 --> 01:12:14,000 But of course there's also, you know, L to, you know, some 1176 01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:15,800 additional fee, right? That's there. 1177 01:12:16,300 --> 01:12:19,700 And so I'd love to maybe speak a little bit about that. 1178 01:12:19,700 --> 01:12:21,900 And then, I'm also curious, I think so. 1179 01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:24,800 Optimism, right? A, they launched a optimism 1180 01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,700 token. I'm curious also, if you have 1181 01:12:27,700 --> 01:12:32,400 plans for I don't orbitrim token or like, how do you see sort of 1182 01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:34,600 the economic system evolved in the long run? 1183 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:37,600 Sure. Yeah, I'll be talking about the 1184 01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,900 fees. You know, as I said before the 1185 01:12:39,900 --> 01:12:44,100 biggest component of these is L1 cost, there is L2 gas, there has 1186 01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:47,200 to be gas, right? Because you need the economic 1187 01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:51,300 need to align incentives for users because when a user 1188 01:12:51,300 --> 01:12:55,300 submits a transaction, they are imposing costs on other parties 1189 01:12:55,900 --> 01:12:58,800 and they're using a resource that's limited, namely the 1190 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:03,000 throughput of the chain, right? So you need to have some kind of 1191 01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,700 gas or charging in order to align this in. 1192 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,900 And in order to keep users from just spamming the chain with 1193 01:13:08,900 --> 01:13:12,900 jump transactions, right? And so arbitrary, does that in a 1194 01:13:12,900 --> 01:13:14,600 way, that's pretty similar to aetherium. 1195 01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:21,900 We count gas and we the Gatsby is normally low. 1196 01:13:21,900 --> 01:13:25,100 It will go up. If the chain is busy, it's 1197 01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:28,800 congested. That is if If people, if the 1198 01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:33,300 transactions that are arriving, are more than the change, the 1199 01:13:33,300 --> 01:13:37,900 change capacity, then just like etherium, we have this automatic 1200 01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:42,900 mechanism that raises the base fee, so that you get essentially 1201 01:13:42,900 --> 01:13:47,800 used, use that price mechanism to ration, The Limited limited 1202 01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,400 resource, but most of the time you're running at that sort of 1203 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:56,100 the minimum base fee. So that's kind of how those fees 1204 01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:00,500 are Charged and you know, we believe in a scheme where the 1205 01:14:00,500 --> 01:14:04,700 fees should correspond to the cost of operating the system and 1206 01:14:04,700 --> 01:14:07,500 that and that that's where that that should go in terms of a 1207 01:14:07,508 --> 01:14:12,600 token, you know, we have not launched a token, we have not 1208 01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:16,600 felt the need to do it all the growth that we've gotten is has 1209 01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:18,500 been organic. We haven't paid anyone to use 1210 01:14:18,500 --> 01:14:21,300 the system. You know, we haven't done took 1211 01:14:21,300 --> 01:14:23,700 anomic stuff to try to get people to use this system. 1212 01:14:23,700 --> 01:14:26,800 We really focused on Building A system that meets the needs of 1213 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:30,300 users and Developers. The one thing we've said for 1214 01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:34,800 sure is that we are is that if we do ever introduced a token 1215 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,800 it's not going to be something that generates friction for 1216 01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:39,700 users. It's not going to be something 1217 01:14:39,700 --> 01:14:42,800 that every user of the system has to have or use our own. 1218 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:46,100 We're not going to charge fees in an arbitral token. 1219 01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,500 We think that you know there's huge advantages both 1220 01:14:50,500 --> 01:14:53,700 incompatibility and just practically for user experience. 1221 01:14:53,700 --> 01:14:59,200 To have the native token of our chain be Youth and to have fees 1222 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:04,000 charged, anyth. You know, we haven't, you know, 1223 01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,900 we haven't found that we haven't seen the need to introduce a 1224 01:15:06,900 --> 01:15:12,100 token, you know, we are thinking about decentralization and how 1225 01:15:12,100 --> 01:15:14,700 governance could work going forward and what are the options 1226 01:15:14,700 --> 01:15:20,600 there. But yet it's not it's not it's 1227 01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:22,700 not a decision. We've, you know, we've made to 1228 01:15:22,700 --> 01:15:27,900 do Because right now those exit, those fees basically go to like 1229 01:15:27,900 --> 01:15:31,500 off chain labs and then often lab space like the different 1230 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,600 parties. Yeah. 1231 01:15:35,300 --> 01:15:37,500 Right. Well so the sequence or fees get 1232 01:15:37,500 --> 01:15:40,000 go directly to the sequencers account. 1233 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:44,000 And then the rest, right? We distribute to those who are 1234 01:15:44,300 --> 01:15:47,400 involved in money in running the network. 1235 01:15:47,700 --> 01:15:51,300 Yeah, overtime. You know, we're moving toward 1236 01:15:51,300 --> 01:15:57,400 more transparency about that as we You know, as we line up, say 1237 01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,800 a suite of paid validators and and we're, and we're thinking 1238 01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:08,200 through how to what's the best way to have our community 1239 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:11,400 participate in these sort of this sort of decision making but 1240 01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,900 it's definitely the you know, the endpoint that we're aiming 1241 01:16:13,900 --> 01:16:17,700 for is community participation in this and we need to have 1242 01:16:17,700 --> 01:16:19,800 there needs to be an economic model that's sustainable that 1243 01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,400 covers the costs and so on. But you know, we want the 1244 01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:26,800 community feel like they A role in in talking through these 1245 01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,600 issues and getting to, as in getting to an outcome that that 1246 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:36,700 meets their needs. Okay, so let's talk about the 1247 01:16:36,700 --> 01:16:40,600 larger ecosystem and bridges. So obviously you didn't design 1248 01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,200 Arbitron as a standalone system, but it kind of works in 1249 01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:48,000 conjunction with etherium. And there are also Bridges 1250 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,500 between arbitrary Amanda theorem to kind of bridge assets. 1251 01:16:51,500 --> 01:16:55,100 Also I mean basically there are no native at Native assets that 1252 01:16:55,100 --> 01:16:57,200 live on average from, right? So basically everything's 1253 01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:01,900 ridged, I assume There are some actually yeah. 1254 01:17:01,900 --> 01:17:06,400 So there are some there are some assets that were built natively 1255 01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,900 on Arbitron. There's some some applications 1256 01:17:09,900 --> 01:17:13,200 that are arbitral native that have chosen to Mint their their 1257 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,500 projects tokens on Arbitron. So there are some of those but 1258 01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,300 most of the value on arbitrament has been bridged over from the 1259 01:17:20,300 --> 01:17:24,300 theorem. And how does a so basically you 1260 01:17:24,300 --> 01:17:28,200 guys build and, and operate Bridge, how does that bridge 1261 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,000 work? And how, how do you envisage the 1262 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:35,300 bridge landscape in the future? Yeah, so we have, we have a 1263 01:17:35,308 --> 01:17:39,400 basic bridge that can Bridge Heath and ERC 20s back and forth 1264 01:17:40,300 --> 01:17:45,000 and to bridge from L1 to L2. It's a, I think a pretty typical 1265 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:50,700 kind of architecture. So you make a call to a contract 1266 01:17:50,700 --> 01:17:53,100 on L1. So if you're say your Positing, 1267 01:17:53,100 --> 01:17:56,600 'if I'll tell the story in terms of Youth, but it works pretty 1268 01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:58,200 similarly, if you're using a token. 1269 01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:04,900 So you make a call to a bridging contract on L1, and you pay 1270 01:18:04,900 --> 01:18:09,700 those III to that L1 contract, it will hold those eat that will 1271 01:18:09,700 --> 01:18:13,900 lock them up and your call to do that transfer. 1272 01:18:13,900 --> 01:18:17,200 You said, what address on the L2 chain? 1273 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,900 You wanted those. He's given to usually your own 1274 01:18:20,100 --> 01:18:24,600 address, right? So, So when that bridge contract 1275 01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:27,000 receives those eith it will lock them up. 1276 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:31,500 And then it will send a trusted message up to L2 which causes 1277 01:18:31,500 --> 01:18:34,900 the same number of each to be minted up on the L2 Chain by the 1278 01:18:34,900 --> 01:18:37,200 Arbitron code. And then deposited into the 1279 01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:38,900 account that you asked it to go into. 1280 01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,600 And so and then in the reverse Direction, it's kind of a 1281 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:49,200 similar thing there is, you make a call to a trusted pre-compile 1282 01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:52,300 contract on the L2. Orbitrim chain. 1283 01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,300 Saying that you want to transfer eith that you own on the 1284 01:18:55,300 --> 01:18:58,300 arbitral Chain down to some address on L1. 1285 01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:01,400 And that will cause a trusted message to get sent from the 1286 01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:05,800 orbitrim code on the orbitrim chained to a contract on L1, 1287 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,400 which will cause those e that you deposited back at the 1288 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,000 beginning of my story to get unlocked and paid out. 1289 01:19:11,300 --> 01:19:13,600 So basically, you lock the assets, I know one they get 1290 01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:17,300 passed up to L2 and get minted up there and then you can do the 1291 01:19:17,300 --> 01:19:21,700 reverse operation as well and we provide a bridge that does that 1292 01:19:22,900 --> 01:19:25,600 One of the things that's important for eith, the story is 1293 01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,200 relatively simple for are see 20s. 1294 01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:32,600 You need to be a little bit careful to make sure that people 1295 01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:39,100 don't that each yes. Each token address on l 1 1296 01:19:39,300 --> 01:19:42,300 corresponds to a single token address on the layer 2 Chain. 1297 01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:44,800 And so you know, we have some functionality that lets people 1298 01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:49,200 do that but basically we provide a basic bridge and then other 1299 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,400 people can provide more advanced bridging services on top. 1300 01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:55,500 Back. And so we see, for example, one 1301 01:19:55,500 --> 01:19:59,200 of the issues with an optimistic roll-up is that withdrawing 1302 01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:03,800 assets from layer to back to layer one has a delay and that's 1303 01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:05,800 because of that challenge, period, that I talked about 1304 01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,900 before in the protocol Jin practices seven days. 1305 01:20:09,300 --> 01:20:12,200 And so, if you don't want to wait seven days for your assets 1306 01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:16,400 to get from the arbitral chain back on to etherium, then there 1307 01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:21,000 is a number of different fast, fast Bridge services that you 1308 01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,800 can use. It will basically you can give 1309 01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:28,200 them assets on the layer to chain and they will right away. 1310 01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:32,300 Omit those assets back to you on the layer 1 chain, right? 1311 01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:36,800 And so these third-party bridging Services, provide a 1312 01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,700 bunch of value that people like, but they're kind of built on top 1313 01:20:39,700 --> 01:20:42,500 of the basic bridge that we provide, which is the basic way 1314 01:20:42,500 --> 01:20:44,700 that assets can be moved back and forth. 1315 01:20:45,700 --> 01:20:49,100 Anyway the the service that they're providing the liquidity 1316 01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,600 Innovation service and not a bridging service, right? 1317 01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:53,800 Not so much bridging. Yeah. 1318 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,600 But they're also people who build Bridges between arbitrary. 1319 01:20:56,600 --> 01:21:00,300 Mm, and other layer, 2 Chains, or between arbitrament other L 1320 01:21:00,300 --> 01:21:02,800 ones. Besides etherium, what we 1321 01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,600 provide in our basic bridge is just a bridge between aetherium 1322 01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:11,000 and and and the arbitral chain and then other people can build 1323 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:14,600 other things around it. On top of that. 1324 01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,500 There's a lot of value for users in those, in those sort of 1325 01:21:17,500 --> 01:21:19,900 third-party, bridging, and liquidity Services. 1326 01:21:19,900 --> 01:21:25,100 Yeah, absolutely. So I have an hour worth of 1327 01:21:25,100 --> 01:21:26,600 questions about bridges at least. 1328 01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:28,400 Unfortunately, we don't have an hour. 1329 01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:31,700 So basically, I will kind of cut this down to one question. 1330 01:21:31,900 --> 01:21:39,300 So, in the future, how do you, how do you think about different 1331 01:21:39,300 --> 01:21:43,300 scaling Solutions coexisting? Do you think that I mean, will 1332 01:21:43,300 --> 01:21:46,100 there be roll up to roll? Ridges. 1333 01:21:47,700 --> 01:21:49,900 I mean how do you see that working? 1334 01:21:51,100 --> 01:21:56,200 Yeah I think there will be so know there's a huge demand for 1335 01:21:56,200 --> 01:22:00,900 scaling, and we expect a large number of people to come into 1336 01:22:00,900 --> 01:22:06,000 the space and some, you know web to companies and others to come 1337 01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:11,000 in and bring a lot of demand and as much as you could, you know, 1338 01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:13,700 as much as we and everyone and a lot of other teams are doing to 1339 01:22:13,700 --> 01:22:18,000 try to scale up what you can do on one chain, the demand is 1340 01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,100 going to be more than that. And so we're going to see I 1341 01:22:20,100 --> 01:22:22,400 think Chains that are coexisting. 1342 01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:26,000 And some of them will be from the same technology from the 1343 01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,400 same provider and some may be different Technologies from 1344 01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,600 different providers. But anyway, there's going to be 1345 01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,300 a need to Bridge. And so I think we're going to 1346 01:22:34,300 --> 01:22:38,200 see more sophisticated, bridging systems and more sophisticated, 1347 01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,400 thinking about bridging, I know that in our research team were 1348 01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:45,500 thinking a lot about the multi chain future, and how bridging 1349 01:22:45,500 --> 01:22:48,300 can work, and what is the optimal way to do it without 1350 01:22:48,300 --> 01:22:51,700 sacrificing security and so on? And I think we're going to see a 1351 01:22:51,700 --> 01:22:55,600 lot of innovation sort of at the protocol level in designing 1352 01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:59,500 better, bridging protocols and that's going to provide a ton of 1353 01:22:59,500 --> 01:23:01,000 value. Because I do think we're headed 1354 01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,200 for a multi chain of future of multiple chains, and not just 1355 01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,800 like a single chain that wins. Cool. 1356 01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:11,900 Well, I mean he's covered a lot about arbitrary, right? 1357 01:23:11,900 --> 01:23:15,000 A lot of different aspects. I'm curious maybe sort of as if, 1358 01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,500 as a final thing. Can you talk a little bit about? 1359 01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:22,300 You know, what are the biggest things that are left to do? 1360 01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:23,900 You know what, what does the word arbitrary? 1361 01:23:23,900 --> 01:23:29,400 I'm roadmap look like So we have a few things that are coming up 1362 01:23:29,500 --> 01:23:33,200 soon. The first one is our Nitro 1363 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,700 upgrade. So this is kind of a rewrite of 1364 01:23:35,700 --> 01:23:40,500 our entire software stack which is which is going to lower costs 1365 01:23:40,500 --> 01:23:45,100 and increase scalability by a large factor and is better in a 1366 01:23:45,100 --> 01:23:48,200 bunch of ways and that's currently on test net but will 1367 01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:51,200 be migrating. Arbitron one are sort of main 1368 01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,000 chain over onto. It is a sort of seamless 1369 01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:58,100 migration and Coming up pretty soon. 1370 01:23:58,100 --> 01:24:02,100 We're not talking dates yet but but it won't be too long. 1371 01:24:02,700 --> 01:24:07,600 After that, we're we're going to roll out another technology 1372 01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,300 which we call arbitrary many trust, which is a way if, if 1373 01:24:12,300 --> 01:24:15,900 you're willing to make a mild trust assumption, in addition to 1374 01:24:15,900 --> 01:24:18,800 trusting aetherium in particular, if you're willing to 1375 01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:23,800 trust the to out of n, members of the data availability, 1376 01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:28,500 committee are honest, then We can provide you with 1377 01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:33,800 considerably lower cost by moving, the recording of 1378 01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:37,800 transaction data off of the etherium chain and onto a sort 1379 01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:40,600 of replicated Committee of data availability servers. 1380 01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:42,900 That's arbitrary, many trust and we're going to be rolling that 1381 01:24:42,900 --> 01:24:46,900 out as well. Those two things are on our 1382 01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:51,900 shorter-term roadmap after that it's really about driving 1383 01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:56,200 scalability. We've, we have a bunch of cool 1384 01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,800 things in the Pipeline, which are going to drive scalability 1385 01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,400 up further on a single chain, you know, we're thinking a lot 1386 01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:06,900 about cross chain bridging and we're thinking about, you know, 1387 01:25:06,900 --> 01:25:11,300 ways of supporting a multi-chain world, because we think the 1388 01:25:11,300 --> 01:25:15,000 demand is going to be there. And I think there's gonna be a 1389 01:25:15,008 --> 01:25:18,300 lot of innovation in that area. That's kind of where we're 1390 01:25:18,300 --> 01:25:20,200 headed. It's mostly about driving scale 1391 01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:24,500 up and driving costs down, you know, I'm fundamentally a tech. 1392 01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:27,900 I'm fundamentally a tech person. Not We won in our team is, you 1393 01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:31,100 know, we to be to be successful in the space. 1394 01:25:31,100 --> 01:25:34,700 You need a lot of different, a lot of different types of skill 1395 01:25:34,700 --> 01:25:38,500 and an activity, and but for me it's all about sort of driving 1396 01:25:38,500 --> 01:25:40,800 the fundamentals of our technology forward. 1397 01:25:41,700 --> 01:25:44,800 And that's really what I'm going to continue to be to be focused 1398 01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:46,400 on. We have some really, really 1399 01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:48,500 interesting things in the pipeline right now. 1400 01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:52,800 We're heads down, getting Nitro and and any trust to delivered 1401 01:25:52,900 --> 01:25:54,600 and after that I think it's an open field. 1402 01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,700 We're going to do a lot and I think we can drive cost. 1403 01:25:56,900 --> 01:25:58,600 On it a lot and scalability up Allah. 1404 01:26:00,100 --> 01:26:04,200 Perfect sounds exciting. It where can people go to find 1405 01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:08,400 out more about a Bertram? Well, you can go to Arbitron dot 1406 01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:12,400 IO and to get information. If you're a developer, it's 1407 01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:16,800 developer dot arbitral. Yo, if you want to, you could 1408 01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,300 look at the Block Explorer, our block explore if you want to see 1409 01:26:19,308 --> 01:26:20,700 what's happening on our main chain. 1410 01:26:20,700 --> 01:26:24,400 It's Arbus can.i. Oh it's that's like the marriage 1411 01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,100 of arbitrament ether scan. Its that youth are scans teams. 1412 01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:30,200 Big block Explorer. Bye. 1413 01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:34,600 Dieter scan team that that lets you follow arbitrary, you can 1414 01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:40,500 follow us on Twitter at arbitrary more off chain Labs or 1415 01:26:40,500 --> 01:26:42,700 if you're interested in the Nitro technology you can 1416 01:26:42,700 --> 01:26:46,200 probably just Google arbitral Nitro and get a bunch of 1417 01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,000 information about about that including information on how to 1418 01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,400 get on the test chain that, you know, that is our role up Tech 1419 01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,500 of the future and roll up check of the near future. 1420 01:26:56,500 --> 01:26:58,200 So, yeah, that's all available. If you're interested in 1421 01:26:58,208 --> 01:27:06,300 following me, I'm Ed felten Fel, Tean on Twitter or or, you know, 1422 01:27:06,300 --> 01:27:09,600 you can find me online. Fantastic. 1423 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:11,700 Thank you, Ed. It's been an absolute pleasure 1424 01:27:11,700 --> 01:27:13,900 to have you on and I learned a lot. 1425 01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,800 Thanks a lot for having me. This has been fun. 1426 01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:20,400 Thank you so much. And thanks so much for our 1427 01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,100 listeners as well, and we look forward to being back next week. 1428 01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:27,200 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1429 01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:29,200 We release new episodes every week. 1430 01:27:29,700 --> 01:27:32,500 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 1431 01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:35,600 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 1432 01:27:35,900 --> 01:27:38,800 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 1433 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,700 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 1434 01:27:41,700 --> 01:27:44,900 epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for a full list of places where you 1435 01:27:44,900 --> 01:27:47,500 can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 1436 01:27:47,500 --> 01:27:50,300 for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 1437 01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:53,700 they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other 1438 01:27:53,700 --> 01:27:56,900 podcast listeners, you can Us on Twitter and please leave us a 1439 01:27:56,900 --> 01:27:59,700 review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always 1440 01:27:59,700 --> 01:28:02,800 happy to read them with thanks so much and we look forward to 1441 01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:03,700 being back next week.