1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,640 This is Epicenter episode 517 with guest Evgeny Your Tev. 2 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,520 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,440 technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,280 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Fedelikka Annes and today 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,820 I'm speaking with Evgeny, who is the cofounder and CEO of Zarion, 6 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:36,620 which is a well known web three wallet Afghani welcome. 7 00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:40,340 Thanks, Frederica. It's really a pleasure to be 8 00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:43,420 here. It's the podcast that I've been 9 00:00:43,420 --> 00:00:46,780 known, I've known for a while, so I'm super happy to be here. 10 00:00:47,220 --> 00:00:51,460 And yeah, thanks for hosting. Cool. 11 00:00:52,220 --> 00:00:55,780 So you know about us, but what about you? 12 00:00:55,980 --> 00:00:57,900 Tell us about yourself. What's your background? 13 00:00:59,110 --> 00:01:02,270 Sure. So as much as already I'm at 14 00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:05,069 Guinea. I've been in the crypto space 15 00:01:05,390 --> 00:01:10,350 since roughly forever, I would say like since the, yeah, like 16 00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:15,670 my first interaction was like very like early on in 2015 or 17 00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:18,990 even earlier than that. But I really really got into 18 00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:22,270 crypto after the the white paper for Ethereum. 19 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:25,810 That to be quite honest, I still remember the day when I was I 20 00:01:25,810 --> 00:01:29,450 was on the subway just like scrolling through the Internet. 21 00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:32,490 And I was I came across the white paper and I just read it 22 00:01:32,490 --> 00:01:34,290 through it. It blew my mind. 23 00:01:34,290 --> 00:01:37,250 So that's how I got into like the whole space basically. 24 00:01:37,250 --> 00:01:40,450 Since then, I've been. I've been committed to working 25 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:43,250 in Web 3, even though it wasn't called Web 3 back in the day 26 00:01:44,250 --> 00:01:47,120 and. Yeah, before that I I was still 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,920 studying. At that moment I was studying 28 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,440 computer science. That's my background. 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,640 I'm an engineer by education and like my first adventures, but 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,080 honestly in like in my spirit, I'm I'm an entrepreneur. 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,280 So I've been working on my own projects basically since high 32 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,639 school and I started like various mobile apps, chat bots 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,680 and some of them like with variable level of success. 34 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:15,670 I think the the most interesting one was actually already in the 35 00:02:15,670 --> 00:02:18,990 crypto space. That's before 0 in was an app 36 00:02:18,990 --> 00:02:22,190 called Crypto Trader. It had over 1,000,000 downloads 37 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:25,870 with like pretty like 0 marketing efforts or anything. 38 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:28,870 It was just for tracking whatever price was and I built 39 00:02:28,870 --> 00:02:34,030 it for myself and it just scaled to to many people liked it and 40 00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:36,910 before that I worked. This is how I actually found my 41 00:02:36,910 --> 00:02:37,790 cofounder. I was. 42 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:42,530 Building mobile applications with like a venture studio in 43 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:44,970 Moscow. So that's the background. 44 00:02:47,770 --> 00:02:50,490 When you were on the subway reading the Ethereum white 45 00:02:50,490 --> 00:02:55,570 paper, what was it exactly that appeared kind of the technology 46 00:02:55,570 --> 00:03:01,090 itself, or kind of the idea of what it could empower in the 47 00:03:01,090 --> 00:03:04,210 long run? Yeah, so this is. 48 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,440 I think a fairly typical story for anyone living in a third a 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,880 third word world country. So when the financial system 50 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,560 basically like after the Soviet Union collapse, obviously Russia 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,840 took a capitalist approach but the financial system was not 52 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:28,120 nearly as stable as it was in Europe, for example in the US. 53 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,800 And 1st I was intrigued by the the. 54 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:36,980 Idea of programmable money. This is like first when I read 55 00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:40,780 about Bitcoin, but as a as an engineer myself, I was not 56 00:03:41,380 --> 00:03:44,180 convinced fully. I would say that this is going 57 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,940 to be you know, I kind of liked it. 58 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:49,660 I started reading about the nature of currency, the nature 59 00:03:49,660 --> 00:03:53,540 of money, how it all works. Why is the currency in my 60 00:03:53,540 --> 00:03:56,980 country collapsing and in others it doesn't? 61 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:00,740 Why the stock market behaves by but like the way it behaves? 62 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,760 And so this gotten my interest, but really, really got excited 63 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,800 when I understood that you could leverage the technology of 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,640 blockchain to extend that to essentially programmable trust. 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,480 So it's not just about money anymore. 66 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,320 And if we can't have this shared trust layer which is the 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:25,400 Ethereum computer, this is where I got, I was sold basically. 68 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,840 And yeah, I think there were a lot of other. 69 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:33,870 Really forward-looking ideas in the white paper, many of which 70 00:04:33,870 --> 00:04:36,830 were I guess took years and years to realize. 71 00:04:36,830 --> 00:04:42,990 But I think the main proposition was, yeah, changing, like 72 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:45,590 changing the rules basically And where this whole thing is 73 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:48,830 headed. Yeah, absolutely. 74 00:04:49,070 --> 00:04:54,110 So after the success of Crypto Trader, you guys started Serion 75 00:04:54,110 --> 00:04:57,100 together. What was the motivation behind? 76 00:04:57,340 --> 00:05:00,740 I mean, basically even back then there were a multitude of 77 00:05:00,740 --> 00:05:02,900 wallets, right? So, kind of What was the 78 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:06,420 motivation behind starting yet another wallet? 79 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:09,900 Yeah. So I think it's fair to kind of 80 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:14,140 took it a little bit of a D route here and talk about zeros 81 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:17,620 evolution. So zeroing was zeroing is a 82 00:05:17,620 --> 00:05:21,500 wallet only for the last year and a half roughly and all the 83 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:24,300 all the time before that zeroing was kind of. 84 00:05:25,190 --> 00:05:29,910 Three different companies. So we really started with even 85 00:05:29,910 --> 00:05:32,710 like you can call it the Spark concept development studio. 86 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:35,830 So we were helping out the companies and with ideas who 87 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:38,670 knew what they want to build on top of theorem just realize 88 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:42,550 their things. And later I think like the first 89 00:05:42,590 --> 00:05:46,150 really the story where of 0 in itself starts with the folio 90 00:05:46,150 --> 00:05:49,310 tracking. When we decided that we actually 91 00:05:49,310 --> 00:05:51,670 didn't want to build a wallet, there were so many already, like 92 00:05:51,670 --> 00:05:53,910 there were quite a few wallets, The space was. 93 00:05:54,510 --> 00:05:59,030 Pretty much starting to be filled with a magnitude of 94 00:05:59,030 --> 00:06:02,990 tokens and that people really needed tools for them to keep 95 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:05,230 track of stuff that is happening, what they have even 96 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:09,150 in their wallet. And this is by the way still a 97 00:06:09,150 --> 00:06:11,550 big issue for the existing big wallets. 98 00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:16,390 We don't have to call them out here and we've started with that 99 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:19,950 mission to track basically everything that happens on chain 100 00:06:20,030 --> 00:06:22,510 such that the users don't have to worry about it and they have. 101 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,560 Control, because control means safety and this is how we got 102 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,920 our first user base. So people were coming to zero 103 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,560 and just to see what they really have in the portfolio, what kind 104 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,080 of transactions they were making and that's been fairly 105 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,440 successful. And this is how we got started. 106 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:43,560 But what we realized over time is that DFI is becoming like a 107 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,120 big thing, and it's now much easier than ever because of 108 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,850 this. Access to the centralized trust 109 00:06:50,850 --> 00:06:54,370 in a way we could just integrate uni swap without even like going 110 00:06:54,370 --> 00:06:57,610 and talking to uni swap and people could start leveraging 111 00:06:57,610 --> 00:07:01,010 that within our interface. And we soon noticed that 112 00:07:01,770 --> 00:07:05,210 basically the users who are transacting using Syrian, they 113 00:07:05,210 --> 00:07:07,530 are our you can you can call like super fat. 114 00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:09,170 So they just love the experience. 115 00:07:09,170 --> 00:07:12,610 They love the UI, they like love the combination of the portfolio 116 00:07:12,610 --> 00:07:16,770 tracking with the transacting part and we kind of. 117 00:07:17,530 --> 00:07:20,850 We dived into this path and we started doing more and more 118 00:07:20,850 --> 00:07:23,130 integrations. We were the first ever 119 00:07:23,130 --> 00:07:26,290 integration of union swap, I think the first integration of 120 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:30,250 Maker Dow, the first integration of Compound V2 and like a few 121 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:32,410 other protocols. So really, really early in the 122 00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:38,530 Defy journey and eventually this this whole I guess pathway led 123 00:07:38,530 --> 00:07:42,570 us to realizing that this is time when we are ready to start 124 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:45,890 our own bullet because the existing wallets were still. 125 00:07:46,210 --> 00:07:50,610 Lagging behind in terms of the I guess the data capabilities so 126 00:07:50,810 --> 00:07:54,970 the and the UX in general. So UX I think in crypto in a big 127 00:07:54,970 --> 00:07:58,770 way is build on top of good data and like fast. 128 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:02,770 Yeah like a fast understanding what was in your wallet to make 129 00:08:02,770 --> 00:08:05,530 good decisions to sign transactions in a safer way to 130 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:08,930 exactly know like and how connecting to the apps and etc 131 00:08:08,930 --> 00:08:10,370 etc. So that requires good 132 00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:14,330 information and we had that for for a while now and. 133 00:08:15,050 --> 00:08:18,010 We decided that the bullet should have all, should have it 134 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:24,170 all and yeah that's that was the whole motivation behind if I'm 135 00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:26,850 moving into the wallet space eventually I think it I kind of 136 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:29,250 see it as like the the end game for Syrian. 137 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:33,809 We we were thinking of doing a wallet for a very, very long 138 00:08:33,809 --> 00:08:35,809 time. We always like postpone that and 139 00:08:35,809 --> 00:08:38,530 like it's much harder to compete, it's harder to monetize 140 00:08:38,530 --> 00:08:42,250 etcetera, etcetera. But yeah, I feel like we are 141 00:08:42,250 --> 00:08:45,130 ready now. And yeah, lastly, I think what's 142 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:48,490 important to mention here, a very long time ago, I think it 143 00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:52,690 was like 2017 we even had an attempt at wallet. 144 00:08:52,770 --> 00:08:56,090 We didn't put too much effort into it, but it was called 145 00:08:56,090 --> 00:08:59,890 Tokinary, it was one of the, it was built by one of our 146 00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:03,410 engineers. So basically like a kind of like 147 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:06,450 a sister company or speed off from Zirion and. 148 00:09:07,370 --> 00:09:09,290 It was cool talking, Larry. So that was like very, very 149 00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:12,850 simple wallet. It was built using the kind of 150 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:16,730 telegram principle of removing all the clutter and just keeping 151 00:09:16,930 --> 00:09:21,010 focus on one single wallet, just the tokens and signing 152 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:22,170 transactions. That's it. 153 00:09:23,050 --> 00:09:27,730 It was a cool thing. We still have users on that, but 154 00:09:27,770 --> 00:09:30,090 we're not really doing anything anymore with this. 155 00:09:30,170 --> 00:09:32,770 And obviously now zero is the main thing. 156 00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:38,230 Okay, maybe. Let's talk about kind of how 157 00:09:38,470 --> 00:09:41,630 Xerion handles for the user and then we can kind of talk about 158 00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:45,470 kind of the spectrum of wallets and kind of what they do for you 159 00:09:45,470 --> 00:09:48,110 X and kind of what you guys plan to do for you X because 160 00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:51,230 obviously it's, I mean it's super apparent that user 161 00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:55,270 experience for wallets has to greatly improve for this to kind 162 00:09:55,270 --> 00:10:00,150 of see any mainstream adoption. So kind of talk us through if I 163 00:10:00,150 --> 00:10:05,170 go to xerion dot io now and want to create a wallet, how do you 164 00:10:05,170 --> 00:10:07,690 guys do that for me? Where are the keys? 165 00:10:08,450 --> 00:10:11,130 How do I safe keep them? Yeah. 166 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:14,650 So I think the best experience would be on mobile still. 167 00:10:14,650 --> 00:10:16,930 So we are in the process of releasing. 168 00:10:16,930 --> 00:10:20,170 So for our web users, we are in the process of releasing the 169 00:10:20,170 --> 00:10:22,770 extension. So this is happening already. 170 00:10:22,770 --> 00:10:27,530 We're going to go public life in about a month from now. 171 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:31,310 So we're pretty much gearing for that and excited for this 172 00:10:31,310 --> 00:10:33,510 launch. We still, we already have over 173 00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:37,750 10,000 beta users of the extension, but yeah that would 174 00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:40,950 be the milestone. Majority of our users of the 175 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:48,310 wallet are on mobile and the way it works is a very classic non 176 00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:51,550 custodial wallet. So you come, you create a seat 177 00:10:51,550 --> 00:10:52,990 phrase. We'll guide you through how you 178 00:10:52,990 --> 00:10:56,590 should recover that we. We're obviously thinking about 179 00:10:56,590 --> 00:11:00,430 other ways of custody, but I think for us the main reason why 180 00:11:00,430 --> 00:11:05,310 we wanted to keep it very simple is that first we do rely a lot 181 00:11:05,310 --> 00:11:09,830 on composability, so daps have to work for for the world to be 182 00:11:09,830 --> 00:11:13,630 useful. And 2nd we wanted to it's you 183 00:11:13,630 --> 00:11:15,790 can go like a vampire attack on meta mask. 184 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:19,590 We want users to migrate over, and we still have a pretty big 185 00:11:19,790 --> 00:11:22,990 chunk of users just moving their seed phrase from meta mask to 186 00:11:22,990 --> 00:11:26,030 Syrian. And yeah, the C phrase just 187 00:11:26,030 --> 00:11:30,190 stays on the device and we obviously don't have access to 188 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,510 it. You can back it up in I cloud if 189 00:11:32,510 --> 00:11:35,030 you want. And yeah, that's about it in 190 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:38,270 terms of just creating a wallet. So it's very simple, just a few 191 00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:41,430 taps, yeah. And in terms of the experience, 192 00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:45,270 I guess what you get is the DAP browser that works. 193 00:11:45,270 --> 00:11:48,190 So you can connect to any DAP and you can site transaction 194 00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:51,550 transactions. You can connect to pretty much 195 00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:55,350 any network out there. So we support fully support in 196 00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:58,710 terms of data capabilities, we support about 10 chains and the 197 00:11:58,710 --> 00:12:01,870 rest you can just add any custom RPC and start signing 198 00:12:01,910 --> 00:12:05,270 transactions. We do check every transaction 199 00:12:05,270 --> 00:12:09,310 before it's sent by simulating it and giving you what is going 200 00:12:09,310 --> 00:12:11,750 to happen as a result of this transaction. 201 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:16,190 I know that the safe does that too and like good better wallets 202 00:12:16,430 --> 00:12:17,910 are doing that now. So that's good. 203 00:12:18,610 --> 00:12:21,810 And we obviously checked the domain names for phishing and 204 00:12:21,930 --> 00:12:25,090 basically doing all kinds of security checks in the moment of 205 00:12:25,090 --> 00:12:27,450 transactions. And we plan to add more and more 206 00:12:27,450 --> 00:12:32,010 stuff on the security of the basically interacting with the 207 00:12:32,010 --> 00:12:35,010 blockchains. Okay. 208 00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:37,330 We'll dive into that in just a bit. 209 00:12:37,330 --> 00:12:39,890 Let's kind of just remain on the seed phrase for now. 210 00:12:40,090 --> 00:12:43,890 So I assume the seed phrase is in some sort of secure enclave 211 00:12:44,970 --> 00:12:48,980 in your phone, right? When you say you can back it up 212 00:12:48,980 --> 00:12:53,740 to iCloud, can you also just write it down kind of pen and 213 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:55,660 paper, or do you never get to see it? 214 00:12:56,460 --> 00:13:00,500 You obviously can, yes, so that would be the default way for 215 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:03,180 most people who know how to handle the seed phrases. 216 00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:06,860 But backing it up to iCloud is still. 217 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:11,700 It's kind of an easy way for you to for someone who is not too 218 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,300 experienced with crypto but still want to give it a go. 219 00:13:14,930 --> 00:13:19,090 To not lose the key. And if for example their device 220 00:13:19,090 --> 00:13:25,610 is stolen or lost, in that case they might have forgotten to 221 00:13:26,010 --> 00:13:28,850 back it up using like a paper and a pen. 222 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:33,770 And in that case they could just using their Apple ID or Google 223 00:13:33,770 --> 00:13:36,330 account. They and plus like their 224 00:13:36,330 --> 00:13:38,730 biometrics, they can restore access to the seed phrase. 225 00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:42,690 So basically the seed phrase is not stored in the open way in I 226 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:45,710 cloud or Google Drive. It's encrypted with your 227 00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:48,950 biometrics and stored. So basically if you lose both 228 00:13:49,230 --> 00:13:53,710 your, I guess, PIN to the phone and your phone, that's the one 229 00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:57,790 you actually lose the key. Yeah, but in other cases it 230 00:13:57,790 --> 00:14:01,190 saves from. The most common way of losing 231 00:14:01,190 --> 00:14:03,350 A/C phrase is when you forgot to back it up. 232 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:06,660 So yeah, that's, that's where we are. 233 00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:10,020 It doesn't obviously protect from the leakage of the seed 234 00:14:10,060 --> 00:14:11,860 phrase. So if you've written down some 235 00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:13,580 seed phrases, that's the biggest concern. 236 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,020 So if you write it down somewhere and someone finds it 237 00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:18,900 out, finds out, you see it, money's gone. 238 00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:23,940 And obviously there are ways to rent from that, but but that 239 00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:27,180 requires using completely different stack of custody. 240 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:32,740 And yeah, I think next year would probably be when that gets 241 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:36,990 more and more adoption, who, who are your users? 242 00:14:36,990 --> 00:14:41,070 So basically if you kind of look at financial applications, there 243 00:14:41,070 --> 00:14:43,670 are typically kind of users who are kind of happy to use their 244 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:46,430 phones for stuff. But at some point kind of at 245 00:14:46,430 --> 00:14:52,350 some level of awareness, this stops, right, you're not going 246 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:55,510 to make, you know, $1 million transaction from your phone. 247 00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:57,430 People just have an aversion to that. 248 00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:59,310 So kind of who who is your user base? 249 00:15:00,540 --> 00:15:03,060 Actually that's a new question. So yeah, I have two things on 250 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:07,220 this. So Speaking of the user base, it 251 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:12,300 starts with obviously we're not focused on a whale type of user. 252 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:15,980 So if you really want to store a lot of money and Zerian is not 253 00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:18,820 the right now at least is not the place where you should be 254 00:15:18,820 --> 00:15:21,620 doing that. So Zerian is primarily for your. 255 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:25,140 I would call it like a public on chain identity. 256 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:29,970 So if you want to. Mint out of T's if you want to 257 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:33,530 quickly sign into something on on a conference. 258 00:15:33,970 --> 00:15:38,450 If you are trying to, I don't know, like buy some random token 259 00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:44,970 or mint a sound on sound XYZ or mint a post on mirror. 260 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:49,610 So these types of actions, whether that's collecting or 261 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:53,170 like buying some random tokens in small amounts just to play 262 00:15:53,170 --> 00:15:56,930 around, testing new stuff, new daps, new protocols, games, 263 00:15:56,930 --> 00:16:00,230 whatever that is. And that's where we we shine 264 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:02,510 really. And the Xerion was meant for 265 00:16:02,510 --> 00:16:04,550 users who are doing a lot of transactions. 266 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:08,350 So that's kind of opposed to what Ledger is meant to be or 267 00:16:08,350 --> 00:16:12,990 maybe safe like I mean those is safe where you keep a lot of 268 00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:16,470 funds and you try not to touch them, but when you do, you do it 269 00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:19,030 like very carefully. So that would be the use case 270 00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:21,670 for a Ledger and that's why like obviously Ledger is not 271 00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:23,630 convenient. You need to carry it around 272 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:26,560 like. Plug in and obviously like you 273 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,440 won't do that in like a minute in zero and you can just like 274 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,200 pull it up, scan up your code or admin stuff or like test out a 275 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,440 new DAP on the go. So that's the main use case. 276 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,680 And the second thing I wanted to add is I think in the future it 277 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,200 would still work really nicely with these types of use cases 278 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,880 and for that it's just a little. A bit more time is required. 279 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,520 So obviously the safe integration on the Xerion end 280 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,960 could be one of the solutions where you could like initiate 281 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,360 transactions from the phone and there's not going to be any 282 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,599 security concerns because you would have a second key where or 283 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,359 like you have a friend who would need to confirm a transaction. 284 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,280 And even with the Ledger, we have some users who are using 285 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,680 Xerion mobile experience with the Ledger. 286 00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:16,210 And soon they'll be able to do that with extension. 287 00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:18,410 So it's kind of like an interface, so you don't have to 288 00:17:18,410 --> 00:17:20,970 worry about the key being leaked in any way. 289 00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:24,849 Or yeah, you can keep as much fun as you want obviously on 290 00:17:24,849 --> 00:17:27,690 these types of bullets. So we kind of separate the 291 00:17:27,690 --> 00:17:31,690 bullet experience from custody. And currently our custody works 292 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:35,850 for these like smaller type of like amounts of money but much 293 00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:40,570 broader set of use cases. Have you looked at kind of 294 00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:44,800 second signers and so on that kind of connect with NFC because 295 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,200 kind of you know being mobile first that sort of you know a 296 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,160 low hanging fruit, no? We did. 297 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,440 And by that you mean like kind of like a UB key, like NFC, 298 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,360 something like a tandem, a card or something? 299 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,800 Yes, they usually with all of that. 300 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,080 So it all sounds great and I would really love to have 301 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,080 something like that and I've seen tested numerous. 302 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,960 Parts that you need to tap to confirm transactions I even 303 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,280 like. I have an NFC ring like. 304 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,560 Here that I'm using for payment, so I'm a big nerd for these 305 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,240 types of things, but I think when it comes to a more mass 306 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,280 adoption, this is logistics, It's expensive. 307 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,350 So basically. If we have this much user base, 308 00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:38,110 like only whatever 10% tops would be willing to pay for it, 309 00:18:38,110 --> 00:18:41,830 reveal their address like their like levels and levels of 310 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:46,510 considerations that we need to take care of before using that 311 00:18:46,510 --> 00:18:48,710 specific solution and it never really took off. 312 00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:53,510 So I'm I think our our way is honestly software rather than 313 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:55,830 hardware when it comes to adoption. 314 00:18:56,110 --> 00:18:58,870 So making things cheaper and making them, making them more. 315 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:03,540 Like available through existing technology and that's why for 316 00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:08,780 example abstraction to me is more I guess a reliable way to 317 00:19:09,140 --> 00:19:13,740 progress with the UX and also like the new signature, so if we 318 00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:19,860 can reuse the signature from existing hardware devices which. 319 00:19:21,150 --> 00:19:23,110 That they're not currently compatible with theorem 320 00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:24,870 signatures. But if we can make easy and kind 321 00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:27,830 of abstraction then compatible, then we can leverage existing 322 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:31,030 hardware in the phone and we don't have to even have a 323 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:33,390 Ledger. So I think that's the best 324 00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:37,510 pathway for it. And yeah, for all the mass 325 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:42,670 adoption, cool. So I understand that kind of the 326 00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:47,110 users that use Sareon currently are kind of like people who go 327 00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:51,540 to events, who kind of want to try out different apps, kind of 328 00:19:51,540 --> 00:19:57,460 have spending money just kind of like on a low barrier to entry 329 00:19:57,460 --> 00:20:00,020 mobile app. What are your intended users? 330 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:05,380 Because kind of that's as a market, that's a very 331 00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:07,580 constrained set of people, right? 332 00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:13,100 Yeah, I think it's constrained right now, but I'm a big 333 00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:18,070 proponent of the growth of the Web 3 user base and we kind of 334 00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:20,990 we define our users as Web three citizens and we've been pretty 335 00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:26,630 vocal about that. And I still feel pretty strongly 336 00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:28,510 that we don't really have to change that. 337 00:20:29,710 --> 00:20:32,990 I know that a lot of people are talking about onboarding the 338 00:20:32,990 --> 00:20:36,390 newbies, billions of users to Web 3. 339 00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:39,590 But to me I think it should grow from within, it should grow from 340 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,800 the the web three citizens themselves. 341 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,760 And we really want to support the use cases that are actually 342 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,400 working and useful in Web 3. And that's why we we want to 343 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,960 kind of what we're focusing on what people are doing now in Web 344 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,440 3 because that kind of gives us early hints of what could be 345 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,440 useful for the rest of the market when it when the time 346 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,520 comes. So yeah, I don't think, I don't 347 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,860 really believe in us kind of deciding like someone finding 348 00:21:10,860 --> 00:21:13,300 out randomly that this is what people would want. 349 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:18,980 And I think the UX of the wallet is no matter how bad it is, we 350 00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:21,940 need to find the use cases within the Web 3 space that will 351 00:21:21,940 --> 00:21:25,340 attract people. And once we have that, and I 352 00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:29,460 hope we won't miss that. So as these narratives are 353 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:32,700 created within the Web 3 ecosystem and zeroing supports 354 00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:36,420 them, then all the new users who are going to come to Web three 355 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:40,500 and become web three citizens, they would be the ones like they 356 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:43,300 would try to look up to all the web three citizens who were 357 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:45,820 there and they were coming. They would be coming for the use 358 00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:48,820 cases that we've developed. So that that's my point of view. 359 00:21:48,820 --> 00:21:51,980 So I'm not like again a big believer in copying something 360 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:56,660 and just putting on on Web Three and and making it like look like 361 00:21:56,660 --> 00:22:00,060 it's Web 2 because because why? Like it's the same, but just 362 00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:03,610 more expensive. And users would probably come 363 00:22:03,610 --> 00:22:06,250 for maybe some incentives, but that's it. 364 00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:09,210 They would just leave next day. Okay. 365 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:14,130 Then maybe looking at the wallet as it is now, not kind of at the 366 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:17,770 user experience as you wanted to develop in the future, what are 367 00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:19,890 the challenges of building a wallet? 368 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:23,050 So kind of I assume there's kind of like you need to run archiver 369 00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:26,610 nodes and have like databases and so on for several chains. 370 00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:32,390 But it walk us through the details or there's quite a few 371 00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:35,190 and and that really depends on what kind of we're talking 372 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:40,150 about. So first of all, none of the, I 373 00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:43,710 guess like very, very few wallets run archive notes just 374 00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:47,510 on even notes. Even though we do a lot of focus 375 00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:50,950 on the data, we don't run our own notes because this is like 376 00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:53,670 someone else's business. They do that better for us. 377 00:22:53,670 --> 00:22:57,550 I think that speaking from like the product perspective, I think 378 00:22:57,550 --> 00:23:02,390 the biggest challenge is really understanding what's key to have 379 00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:05,870 on the wallet level versus what's what should live on the 380 00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:09,990 DAP level and that's that's the balance. 381 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:12,230 And I think every, every wallet is really going through that. 382 00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:15,510 So some some wallets were like OK, we have to do things very, 383 00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:18,430 very certain way like this. This is the only way you can do 384 00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:20,430 stuff this. These are the only Daps you can 385 00:23:20,430 --> 00:23:23,470 access and being very restrictive. 386 00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:27,420 There are wallets that are completely kind of removed from 387 00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:29,980 your experience and they just say OK, that's the key. 388 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:31,740 Everything else is like up to you. 389 00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:35,300 I think Madam Mask is probably on that kind of that spectrum. 390 00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:38,340 So they don't really make any decisions for the user. 391 00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:43,580 They don't try to net like help the user do the right decisions. 392 00:23:43,580 --> 00:23:45,420 That always I think we sit somewhere in the middle. 393 00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:48,820 So we are being more pragmatic I would say about it. 394 00:23:48,820 --> 00:23:51,380 So we know that spam for example is a big problem. 395 00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:54,580 So we do work on our end to remove spam because this leads 396 00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:57,460 to phishing, it leads to people losing funds. 397 00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,380 Same goes to anything when it comes to like signing off the 398 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:03,300 transaction. We want by default to have 399 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,860 protection for our users. So stuff like that is where we 400 00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:12,540 take a stance, but we don't want to limit the user and that's 401 00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:14,300 another reason I've mentioned that already. 402 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:17,780 We wanted to go with C phrases because we want users to be able 403 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,860 to access a wider range of things. 404 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:23,540 So whatever that they want to access, we want to have that. 405 00:24:24,020 --> 00:24:25,900 Yeah. And I think that's on the 406 00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:31,140 product level from I guess the business angle obviously is 407 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:34,020 monetization. We will talk about that I guess 408 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:37,740 later. But yeah, modernization is 409 00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:41,940 obviously has been a pain for most of the wallets with an 410 00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:47,020 exception I think of 1 or maybe 2 Okay, two Ledger we can call 411 00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:49,940 Ledger, Madam ask as like the ones who were not struggling 412 00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:53,420 really with modernization. And lastly I think on the infra 413 00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:58,220 side, I don't think it's a, it's a really hard thing like a 414 00:24:58,220 --> 00:25:01,300 challenge, it's more of hard work that we need to put into 415 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:04,700 into that. But I hope that pays off. 416 00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:07,860 So. If you think about kind of the 417 00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:15,500 decisions you make for the user, so kind of what dabs to display 418 00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:19,220 in your wallet, for instance, what's the approval process and 419 00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:21,940 kind of if I'm a Zarian user, can I make sure that these are 420 00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:26,100 kind of audited or trusted or that there's at least so and so 421 00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:27,860 much TBL that kind of hasn't been. 422 00:25:27,860 --> 00:25:30,060 So I mean what are my assurances? 423 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:34,060 That's a good question. We actually on the on the DAP 424 00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:38,460 list side, we don't do any kind of restrictions so you can 425 00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:42,060 access it's more like a Google live interface and this is where 426 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:46,220 we're different from I guess majority of OS where which run 427 00:25:46,220 --> 00:25:51,100 like a mini marketplace of the approved Daps. 428 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:57,270 We decided against that for for the sake of openness and 429 00:25:57,670 --> 00:26:00,750 basically we don't really want to recommend any particular app, 430 00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:05,430 So usually users would come with an intention in mind of what 431 00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:08,270 exactly they should do and we provide that with that. 432 00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:13,110 What we do though to help users kind of make slightly like 433 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:16,350 basically not to go to a different uni swap, maybe 434 00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:18,950 mistype. We have a small blue check mark 435 00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:23,730 so if they start typing uni a few options would show up and 436 00:26:23,730 --> 00:26:25,450 uni swap would have the blue check mark. 437 00:26:25,730 --> 00:26:28,370 But that's just a list that we maintain of domain name 438 00:26:28,370 --> 00:26:32,650 associations and that's a pretty exhaustive list of non spammy 439 00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:36,770 non phishing depths. Yeah, we don't have a process 440 00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:39,330 for this one. So it's currently just managed 441 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:43,450 internally we used to have. So for the tokens we do the 442 00:26:43,450 --> 00:26:45,570 same, but the process there is a little different. 443 00:26:45,570 --> 00:26:47,290 So we are relying on token lists. 444 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,720 So token list is like the centralized effort for curating 445 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,320 legit tokens. So we rely on that. 446 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,680 With apps, there's no such thing as far as I understand right 447 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,120 now. We would want to have that if 448 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,360 that's available. And honestly, we don't want to 449 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,000 make these decisions for the user. 450 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,520 That's something that we think users should be on their own 451 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,100 when making stuff like that. How do you think about kind of 452 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:21,540 the Attack Attack vectors that kind of come with being a front 453 00:27:21,540 --> 00:27:24,620 end to kind of other people's smart contracts, right. 454 00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:29,180 So basically if your front end were to be hacked, kind of your 455 00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:33,620 users could be kind of siphoned off by malicious sites and so 456 00:27:33,620 --> 00:27:36,940 on. So what kind of security do you 457 00:27:36,940 --> 00:27:40,580 have in place for that? Yeah, this is I think a very, 458 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:45,660 this is somewhat of a more solved problem in a way. 459 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:48,460 So that's not novel. It's something that every 460 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:52,700 startup is running into that runs any kind of front end. 461 00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,540 So I think it's, first of all, it's a little, yeah, it's a 462 00:27:56,540 --> 00:28:00,620 smaller problem. And then that just takes good 463 00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:04,180 hygiene in terms of cyber security. 464 00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:07,780 Yeah. And we just do testing of our 465 00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:11,100 own infrastructure. We've employed white hackers to 466 00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:13,860 poke around and like try to find stuff. 467 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:18,300 The attack vector is still fairly limited because it's 468 00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:23,260 basically we only need to safeguard the deployment of this 469 00:28:23,260 --> 00:28:25,500 new up like the new versions of the front end. 470 00:28:26,060 --> 00:28:28,620 And the biggest risk of me see is where the keys are stored. 471 00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:32,620 So deployment of extension, deployment of mobile apps and 472 00:28:32,620 --> 00:28:37,900 that a big portion of that security is on the Apple and 473 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,380 Google side. So they help you not to make 474 00:28:40,380 --> 00:28:42,780 like basically if there's a deployment happening, we would 475 00:28:42,940 --> 00:28:48,940 all see that and it's a, it's a fairly removed risk I think for 476 00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:54,060 us where we did pay out bounties for example, where you can call 477 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:57,220 them like informational attacks. So I still remember like one big 478 00:28:57,220 --> 00:29:01,580 case where we had to pay, it was like $40,000 or something were 479 00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:04,440 lost. And that was because someone 480 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:10,280 created a fake balancer pool that looked like a regular 481 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,400 balancer pool and had and they faked that pool to look like it 482 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,440 has a lot of tbl. So it showed up in in Syria and 483 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,720 people were like okay this, this is like a legit. 484 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,160 They thought it's a legit pool because it has a certain amount 485 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,480 of tbl and we didn't check the factory contract that was 486 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760 created creating that. Since then, we've started doing 487 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,680 that, but that was a bug that we didn't anticipate. 488 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,320 So it was put up on the front page with like high TVL. 489 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,920 Someone put somebody that lost it. 490 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,960 So we assume that this is our mistake, even though obviously, 491 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,640 like it's you have to verify everything. 492 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,640 But we, yeah, we didn't mean to show this pool anyway. 493 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,920 So yeah, that's these are some learnings we didn't go through 494 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,360 like a massive breach of security. 495 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,360 And for us, I think like not sending a seed phrase somewhere 496 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,640 where it shouldn't be, that would be the only thing we 497 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,880 should worry about really. And for that we just always do 498 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440 the audits. I think it's been, yeah, like 499 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,480 6-7 already and we keep doing that. 500 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:13,880 That's going to be a big expense. 501 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,600 Another attack factor is kind of having transactions you can't 502 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,520 read, right? So basically human. 503 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:26,670 Readable transaction code rather than kind of like the ABI that 504 00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:29,310 you kind of get. How do you feel about that? 505 00:30:29,310 --> 00:30:33,150 Because it's a difficult problem to solve, kind of generally. 506 00:30:33,390 --> 00:30:36,990 But if you don't know what you're signing as a user, it's 507 00:30:36,990 --> 00:30:39,110 really difficult, right? Yeah. 508 00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:44,230 So for that, I think what really works, I would say, well is the 509 00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:47,230 simulations. So that's been getting 510 00:30:47,230 --> 00:30:49,950 implemented across the board. So I think it started with a few 511 00:30:50,410 --> 00:30:54,010 extra extensions that were that you need to run in parallel with 512 00:30:54,010 --> 00:30:58,330 like whatever matter mask, but now it's integrated in zero and 513 00:30:58,330 --> 00:31:01,250 obviously in the coin based wallet and save. 514 00:31:01,650 --> 00:31:05,770 So I think that saves you and kind of allows you to do a quick 515 00:31:05,770 --> 00:31:08,930 check of what is actually happening. 516 00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:12,370 It's still not perfect because sometimes the daps would be 517 00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:16,330 asking you some signature that is the you have. 518 00:31:16,370 --> 00:31:18,610 You don't have any idea what can happen. 519 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:21,700 You have to have a more yeah I guess like a secures adapt to 520 00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:24,500 you understand where this signature can be applied. 521 00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:27,340 But I think this is going to be solved over time as well. 522 00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:30,460 So we do for specific signatures. 523 00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:34,220 When when you are issuing a permit for some contract to 524 00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:37,900 spend your your USDC or something else, we would also 525 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:41,220 recognize that and and show you in the in the human readable way 526 00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:44,780 that some DAP is trying to you know spend this much money. 527 00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:48,320 Is it something that you really want to be doing or not. 528 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,400 And yeah simulation I think really really helps. 529 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,400 So if you weren't your intention was to min to NFT. 530 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,800 If this is what you see as a result of simulation, then most 531 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,160 likely that's correct. I think in the future this is 532 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,240 even kind of better than in the web two world. 533 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,480 So in web two world you just plug in your credit card and you 534 00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:13,930 you leverage the trust network of all the POS connected to 535 00:32:13,930 --> 00:32:15,850 Visa. And they do like all this fraud 536 00:32:15,850 --> 00:32:18,170 prevention if they see something iffy. 537 00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:21,770 But you have to rely on someone else doing the job of verifying 538 00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:24,730 that you are actually doing something legit. 539 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:29,730 And not every every transaction supports like 3D security with 540 00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:33,010 cards. So in crypto you can have 541 00:32:33,730 --> 00:32:37,610 basically deterministic outcome of the transaction. 542 00:32:37,810 --> 00:32:40,470 In most cases you could see exactly what's happening. 543 00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:44,070 I think the security when it comes to signing will just keep 544 00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:47,710 getting better and users won't even need to know what like ABI 545 00:32:47,710 --> 00:32:49,990 is. And I really hope that they 546 00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:52,110 don't. Absolutely. 547 00:32:52,150 --> 00:32:55,910 So I think if we can't make that happen, this is going to remain 548 00:32:55,910 --> 00:32:59,230 very niche. So what networks are most of 549 00:32:59,230 --> 00:33:02,590 your users on? Good question. 550 00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:08,010 It's been changing honestly and we've been very positively 551 00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:12,090 surprised how the adoption of layer twos is growing. 552 00:33:12,810 --> 00:33:18,730 So we had like during this year it went from roughly like 70% 553 00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:22,410 Ethereum domination to now Ethereum being. 554 00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:25,810 I don't, I don't want to be like I cannot give specific numbers. 555 00:33:25,810 --> 00:33:30,130 I didn't rehearse them but we have it's it's a lot of the 556 00:33:30,130 --> 00:33:32,820 change. So you can you can see it's it's 557 00:33:32,820 --> 00:33:35,940 full list of transactions that are made being done all 558 00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:38,820 different chains and they roughly similar. 559 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:41,780 I think the biggest one is still Polygon but it's kind of 560 00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:46,900 shrinking in comparison to ZK saying for example transactions 561 00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:51,780 or base transactions optimism, arbitram were historically 562 00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:55,060 growing pretty much every months and the theorem is kind of like 563 00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:57,860 at capacity. So it's it just sits there and 564 00:33:57,860 --> 00:34:01,580 everything else is growing. So it's very exciting to see and 565 00:34:01,580 --> 00:34:05,410 we do believe really like we kind of refocused our attention 566 00:34:05,410 --> 00:34:10,370 from D Phi protocols more towards supporting more and more 567 00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:14,210 chains because we think that in terms of the primitives were 568 00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:17,449 pretty much there. Because like I think regionally 569 00:34:17,449 --> 00:34:20,050 people were thinking that D Phi would create you know, 570 00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:23,409 thousands. And we were one of the believers 571 00:34:23,409 --> 00:34:27,130 in that that like that we're going to see at least hundreds 572 00:34:27,130 --> 00:34:31,290 of different, I mean meaningfully different protocols 573 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:34,500 in D Phi or just the outside of D Phi. 574 00:34:34,780 --> 00:34:38,260 But it turned out, I think that we have a pretty stable set of 575 00:34:38,340 --> 00:34:42,139 primitives that people use and everything else is more like, 576 00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:47,179 yeah, forks or just slight adjustments of what we have. 577 00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:51,060 And we've decided that OK, we have to support this set of 578 00:34:51,260 --> 00:34:53,300 primitives. But really where we should 579 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:58,380 spending spend our time is, you know, the number of tokens and 580 00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:02,060 chains that are being created because we had kind of 581 00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:06,500 solidified the architecture I would say, of this world 582 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,740 computer. So we have all the bits and 583 00:35:08,740 --> 00:35:12,060 pieces in place roughly, these computers can now talk to each 584 00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:13,700 other. So now we just need to support 585 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:16,980 this network of computers as the wallet. 586 00:35:18,180 --> 00:35:21,620 How do users go between different chains or between 587 00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:25,540 Ethereum and then L2? Do you guys kind of have? 588 00:35:25,830 --> 00:35:29,350 In those bridges that you kind of offer as a standard interface 589 00:35:29,350 --> 00:35:34,870 or how would I go about it? Yeah, we actually support socket 590 00:35:35,310 --> 00:35:38,270 dot tech, so we've integrated them and they are in aggregator 591 00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:41,670 bridges. The way it works is just they 592 00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:46,070 find the best rates across different bridges for any kind 593 00:35:46,070 --> 00:35:50,910 of swap, and the users just go and select the bridge that they 594 00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:52,670 want to use. So they could optimize for 595 00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:56,630 faster transaction, faster settlement or just cheaper 596 00:35:57,310 --> 00:36:00,470 basically like matching how much they would get on the other side 597 00:36:00,790 --> 00:36:03,830 of the bridge. I would say this experience is 598 00:36:03,830 --> 00:36:06,390 suboptimal. Yeah, we've been even 599 00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:10,590 calculating the number of steps it takes to bridge to like a new 600 00:36:10,590 --> 00:36:12,990 chain. So switching to new chain is 601 00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:15,430 very simple. It's like a few taps, but if you 602 00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:19,790 want to move money, you need to go and do probably 15 different 603 00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:24,210 steps as far as I remember. And it also requires a lot of 604 00:36:24,210 --> 00:36:26,450 waiting time and it's not transparent. 605 00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:30,850 Even in Syrian we do as much as we can in terms of tracking 606 00:36:30,850 --> 00:36:32,650 assets. But the bridging experience is 607 00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:35,810 not optimal because you kind of have this moment where money is 608 00:36:35,810 --> 00:36:38,330 gone. You have it in banks all the 609 00:36:38,330 --> 00:36:41,170 time. But encrypt is unusual when you 610 00:36:41,170 --> 00:36:43,690 don't understand what is happening with the money because 611 00:36:43,690 --> 00:36:47,370 it kind of it went away and you just like wait there and hope 612 00:36:47,370 --> 00:36:48,930 that it's going to come on the other side. 613 00:36:50,270 --> 00:36:53,430 So we really want to optimize that in the future and the way 614 00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:59,310 to do that would be basically and that's a general principle 615 00:36:59,630 --> 00:37:04,790 of moving away from multi chain to 1 chain UX as we started 616 00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:08,830 describing it inside Syrian. So when users already need to 617 00:37:08,830 --> 00:37:11,750 understand the differences between chains unless they want 618 00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:17,670 to and you can seamlessly move and transact on any DAP on any 619 00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:21,890 chain without really like going through bridging first and then 620 00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:24,170 doing a transaction. So kind of bundling these two 621 00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:26,570 things together, inciting them all at once. 622 00:37:27,450 --> 00:37:31,090 So I think that's the future and we, I don't know when, but we're 623 00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:35,890 definitely gonna get there. What are the steps kind of 624 00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:39,210 necessary to get there? Kind of the seamless bridging 625 00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:42,810 that kind of just goes on behind the scenes without the user even 626 00:37:42,810 --> 00:37:45,330 realizing. It's a good question. 627 00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:48,330 I think it's first, it's obviously some UX work that we 628 00:37:48,330 --> 00:37:55,250 have to do and we need to have more universal guess adoption of 629 00:37:56,170 --> 00:38:00,610 signing either signing multiple actions on it with one tap. 630 00:38:01,210 --> 00:38:03,570 So that's some ball. It's already started doing that 631 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:06,530 before, the convention was that you will have to sign 632 00:38:06,530 --> 00:38:10,850 everything, like every transaction 1 by 1, but with 633 00:38:10,850 --> 00:38:12,970 approvals. That kills the experience 634 00:38:12,970 --> 00:38:14,530 because you have to sign multiple things. 635 00:38:15,650 --> 00:38:19,570 Permits are not universally accepted, so that's an issue. 636 00:38:20,330 --> 00:38:25,770 And ideally, yeah, we can bundle a few transactions together and 637 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:30,410 the bridges are fast and they could execute on that other 638 00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:32,490 side. Yeah, I think these are the 639 00:38:32,490 --> 00:38:37,060 necessary steps. I don't know what would be the 640 00:38:37,060 --> 00:38:42,420 guarantees between moving the for just to work between 641 00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:45,660 different kinds of and different versions of roll ups. 642 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:49,740 So whether it's going to be the same security guarantees to move 643 00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:53,500 from like an optimistic 1 to the ZK one, I'm not too sure about 644 00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:57,860 that. But yeah, I think that would be 645 00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:01,100 what we want ultimately as the goal. 646 00:39:03,170 --> 00:39:09,170 So basically you also cover some chains that are not Ethereum L 647 00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:12,290 twos, right. This was you didn't call it an 648 00:39:12,290 --> 00:39:16,770 experiment. We've added support for tracking 649 00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:23,170 Solana addresses but that we all know the FTX story. 650 00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:28,130 But really it was I think we're not like our users don't really, 651 00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:34,640 they're not Solana users in short and to be quite honest we 652 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,080 have one of the zero values is is done be a Maxi and that's 653 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,640 just like a you know the whole company value and we wanted to 654 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,320 explore other things we wanted to to see. 655 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,280 So Solano was obviously getting a lot of traction. 656 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,520 So we wanted to support it and we did since the the FTX and 657 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,720 just overall we didn't see a lot of traction in it and we haven't 658 00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:00,840 really put any more resources. Personally, I'm a big EVM 659 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,720 supporter and believer and because I feel that we're kind 660 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:09,640 of past the threshold where it's easy to compete with EVM just 661 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,880 simply because we have so much code written down and so much 662 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:17,400 investment done in security. I think we were never maybe like 663 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,960 someday a new Apple will be born that is going to use a bit of a 664 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,920 different architecture. I don't think that's anytime 665 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,580 soon it's going to take. Years, I would say. 666 00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:33,940 So EVM is the way to go and we've been basically the whole 667 00:40:33,940 --> 00:40:38,220 infrastructure that we've built for tracking assets, tracking 668 00:40:38,220 --> 00:40:43,420 positions is built on EVM and specifically for EVM. 669 00:40:45,020 --> 00:40:47,420 We touched upon it earlier just a little bit. 670 00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:50,020 How do you think about account abstraction in MPC? 671 00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:54,120 Right. This is a, this is a long 672 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,800 debate. We've been researching both for 673 00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,360 a long time. I think it started obviously 674 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,720 more with MPC and the counterstruction became a more 675 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,520 recent theme. I think NBC is a little. 676 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,440 So there there are many things I can say I guess on this and the 677 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,200 short answer, it depends what we're trying to build towards 678 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,760 when it comes to experiences that remove the basically the 679 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,080 wallet from the picture completely. 680 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,680 So like applications that kind of integrate the world inside. 681 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,760 I think for them NPC is the only way right now to manage that. 682 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,720 I think in the future though, NPC has much less flexibility 683 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,360 than account abstraction for anything related to user 684 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,880 experience, like recovery of phrases, making actions on 685 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,920 behalf of the user. So with NPC, I think there are a 686 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,400 few attempts how you can implement the same 687 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,990 programmability really of NPC. But this is a little so 688 00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:56,750 complicated and it's hard to see like how that's going to 689 00:41:56,750 --> 00:41:58,830 necessarily get all the traction. 690 00:41:58,990 --> 00:42:03,790 So it feels like to me when it comes down now, now we can talk 691 00:42:03,790 --> 00:42:05,910 about the count obstruction. So with the count obstruction, I 692 00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:08,830 think in the current form there's still problems. 693 00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:13,470 So we started a long time ago with this idea of let's replace 694 00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:17,790 all the existing accounts and with with mark on checks on the 695 00:42:17,790 --> 00:42:21,320 protocol level. And I think it was like EIP 696 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,920 2000, something I don't remember exactly, but that EAP was not a 697 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,280 priority for the community and for the protocol developers. 698 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,840 So it kind of was worried and now everyone is talking about 699 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,960 ERC 4337 which is making a kind of abstraction kind of on the 700 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,440 application level and without necessarily being hard for it. 701 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,320 So I don't think this is a way to go for a theorem at least 702 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,160 because primarily because of the costs associated with that. 703 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,720 And I think the future of account obstruction is really on 704 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:02,320 L2S where L2S make this hard choice and basically implement 705 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,480 it on the level of the protocol when we actually remove the need 706 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,320 for users to upgrade and move their assets from private keys 707 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,240 to account obstruction obstructed worlds. 708 00:43:14,740 --> 00:43:19,500 So I think that's the way to go. And I know that there are some 709 00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:23,940 teams that are working on for example Gelato team, they're 710 00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:27,020 doing a roll up as a service. So they are thinking about 711 00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:31,740 implementing that for all their potential launch partners such 712 00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:34,380 that this becomes a more of a standard in the space where 713 00:43:34,380 --> 00:43:37,140 every account is indeed an account abstracted wallet. 714 00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:41,300 And in terms of possibilities, I think one would be ideal. 715 00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,360 In terms of the Uxs, as I mentioned previously, when we 716 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,480 support the same cryptography on account abstracted worlds 717 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,000 together with account abstracted worlds being in the protocol 718 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,280 level, I think that's where we get all the flexibility that is 719 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,840 needed and it's not going to be associated with an increased 720 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,840 cost for every transaction and we don't have to do this massive 721 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,200 migration. I don't know what the theory is 722 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,810 going to do though. It's tough. 723 00:44:07,810 --> 00:44:11,810 I think majority of value is already on account on smart 724 00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:15,770 contracts, which is fine. Probably no one will just use 725 00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:18,930 the theorem with private keys support at some point and with 726 00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:24,130 ethere will be just for roll up transactions and block 727 00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:26,610 confirmations. But we'll see. 728 00:44:27,450 --> 00:44:31,330 Yeah, I think that's our current view on the whole thing. 729 00:44:31,330 --> 00:44:35,010 We are exploring more native support for count obstructed 730 00:44:35,010 --> 00:44:40,100 votes in Syrian without necessarily launching our own 731 00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:42,220 version of it. We kind of see it as in a 732 00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:47,100 current form it would look like a 0 bolt in some way because you 733 00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:52,220 still need to have a private key stored somewhere and that would 734 00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:55,380 be the first step. And we actually already enabled 735 00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:59,060 some of the standards for construction for tracking. 736 00:44:59,060 --> 00:45:02,980 So you could plug in if you have an account you can plug in and 737 00:45:02,980 --> 00:45:06,500 get at least the full your value over time for these wallets. 738 00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:11,100 We haven't done on, haven't done transacting with these wallets 739 00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:13,860 yet, but we are ready to do that. 740 00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:17,260 Yeah, let's leave that there for now. 741 00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:21,540 I think there's something I want to come back to later, but let's 742 00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:24,820 talk about kind of the business models for wallets first. 743 00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:28,980 So kind of monetizing wallet has been notoriously difficult in 744 00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:32,660 this ecosystem and with the two notable exceptions that you kind 745 00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:35,580 of you mentioned earlier that and meta mask. 746 00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:40,230 What kind of business models exists and why is it so hard for 747 00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:44,350 wallets to kind of monetize? It's a really good question. 748 00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:50,030 So we've researched them all. I would say at this point at 749 00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:52,910 least like everything that's available on the market right 750 00:45:52,910 --> 00:45:55,510 now. I think there are a few things 751 00:45:55,510 --> 00:46:00,110 that really work, but they require skill and they require a 752 00:46:00,110 --> 00:46:05,050 bit of a if there is speculation and market movement, obviously 753 00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:09,850 trading fees work and that's been working for Meta Musk, it 754 00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,410 kind of does. Still because they have a 755 00:46:11,410 --> 00:46:14,210 massive user base, they're obviously earning a lot less 756 00:46:14,410 --> 00:46:19,490 with the bear market, but all sorts of fees. 757 00:46:19,490 --> 00:46:22,650 They work because users are ready to pay for convenience and 758 00:46:22,650 --> 00:46:26,080 trust. So as they develop trust to your 759 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,320 product, if they store enough money in it and they kind of 760 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,880 been using it forever, they're OK with paying fees. 761 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,880 We took a bit of a different pathway here in comparison to 762 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,320 like some other wallets. So most of the wallets they 763 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,800 don't have any option for more advanced users to stop paying 764 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,560 fees and we took it one step further. 765 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,280 So we allow allow you to basically hold a certain 766 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:55,450 specific entity SO0IN DNA with premium that allows you to not 767 00:46:55,450 --> 00:47:01,210 pay any kinds of fees and that's basically our we wanted to be 768 00:47:01,210 --> 00:47:04,610 using zero swap ourselves internally as a team and for the 769 00:47:04,610 --> 00:47:07,290 majority for like actually big charge of our users who are 770 00:47:07,610 --> 00:47:10,930 pretty active and they do a lot of transacting. 771 00:47:11,170 --> 00:47:15,290 It makes sense to have the same good experience but not pay you 772 00:47:15,330 --> 00:47:18,610 know very high fees for swaps. But at the same time, this works 773 00:47:18,610 --> 00:47:23,140 for less experienced users who are OK with paying fees for the 774 00:47:23,140 --> 00:47:27,020 sake of convenience and trust. So that's the one model that 775 00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:29,860 works. And yeah, but I'm not really 776 00:47:29,860 --> 00:47:32,900 excited about it. And the reason is that training 777 00:47:32,940 --> 00:47:36,460 fees and all kinds of like breaching fees or stuff like 778 00:47:36,460 --> 00:47:41,020 that is all driving the wallets, the words, the financial use 779 00:47:41,020 --> 00:47:43,660 cases. And we see less and less 780 00:47:43,660 --> 00:47:48,660 transactions specifically for token trades or stuff like that. 781 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,880 So a lot more activities on maintaining or doing some 782 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,520 governance, so people are doing more things with their wallets 783 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,160 rather than just trading. And I think that drives away the 784 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,880 value of this business model. So we don't want to be like 785 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,400 Robin Hood and that like Robin Hood selling options to retail 786 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,880 users just to boost the bullets. So for us like another big thing 787 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,600 was API. This is something that is not 788 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,280 accessible for majority of other ones because they are just the 789 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,480 front end. We provide the data for the 790 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,200 wallets and we've we support quite a few wallets out there. 791 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,720 For example Rainbow is one of our clients since 2020 they've 792 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,840 been relying on Syrians data and they are ready to pay for that 793 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,400 data because this powering the user experience and we have more 794 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,880 and more bullets who are using and leveraging outlet data. 795 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:46,400 So that became, you can call it like a bear market, the rescue 796 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,680 in terms of revenue and monetization for us. 797 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,680 And lastly, I think the way to go honestly a long term vision 798 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,720 is to ideally own the whole stack. 799 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,760 So moving to monetizing pretty much any transactions that user, 800 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,560 any transaction that user does and the way to do that is either 801 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:12,120 the applications or the chains share revenue with bullets or we 802 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,190 primarily work with our own change or layer twos and we 803 00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:19,310 direct users to layer twos that we can monetize. 804 00:49:19,310 --> 00:49:23,550 So for example, like launching our own layer two would be an 805 00:49:23,550 --> 00:49:26,230 example where we can monetize any transaction with like 806 00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:31,950 sequencer fees. So that's I guess the path 807 00:49:31,950 --> 00:49:36,070 forward potentially, but it's a little too early and we haven't 808 00:49:36,070 --> 00:49:38,030 seen. So this is like very 809 00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:40,510 experimental. There are no bullets currently 810 00:49:40,510 --> 00:49:45,890 who have their own layer twos. Madamus is kind of with idea is 811 00:49:45,970 --> 00:49:47,210 kind of moving in that direction. 812 00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:50,770 I think that's what consensus once at least that's the feeling 813 00:49:50,770 --> 00:49:54,450 that I'm getting. But this might be an interesting 814 00:49:54,450 --> 00:49:57,890 Ave. Have you looked at kind of 815 00:49:58,330 --> 00:50:02,090 becoming even more of a service provider and kind of abstracting 816 00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:05,690 fees away from people and kind of having them pay like a flat 817 00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:10,010 fee or like a service fee that kind of because? 818 00:50:11,580 --> 00:50:14,380 Kind of what account abstraction also in principle enables, it's 819 00:50:14,380 --> 00:50:17,260 kind of abstracting the gas away from the user, which I think 820 00:50:17,260 --> 00:50:20,860 kind of if this kind of if this were to become more mainstream, 821 00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:25,020 this is I think where we have to go because I mean this is kind 822 00:50:25,020 --> 00:50:27,460 of the Web 2 experience. No one would ever say you're 823 00:50:27,460 --> 00:50:30,540 browsing to my website, please cover your part of the AWS bill 824 00:50:30,860 --> 00:50:33,540 sort of thing. So do do you think kind of 825 00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:37,500 abstracting that away and then having people pay for the 826 00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:40,020 package, do do you see that as viable? 827 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,240 We've researched that. I think first of all, from the 828 00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:48,200 UX perspective, you're completely right. 829 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,400 This is definitely how it it will work. 830 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,640 So we'll abstract away the fees and I think we're not too far 831 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,600 off from that. I think when it comes to 832 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,800 monetizing that, it's a little different. 833 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,560 So what you're suggesting is that we add a certain amount of 834 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,500 like margin on top, so we make users pay more for the 835 00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:14,380 convenience and? Or you just charge them a flat 836 00:51:14,380 --> 00:51:17,020 fee per month, right. So basically kind of like, yeah, 837 00:51:17,260 --> 00:51:23,580 kind of like you do for kind of a regular bank account, kind of 838 00:51:23,580 --> 00:51:27,700 you have like €5 per month kind of in fees and but then you 839 00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:29,820 don't have to pay for like every transaction, right. 840 00:51:30,610 --> 00:51:33,090 Yeah. But even with banks, right, like 841 00:51:33,090 --> 00:51:35,770 most of the banks now provide this service for free. 842 00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:39,650 So it's kind of like a race to up to to zero with these types 843 00:51:39,650 --> 00:51:41,290 of fees. So you would ideally want to 844 00:51:41,290 --> 00:51:46,290 charge users for the added value and not for just maintaining you 845 00:51:46,290 --> 00:51:50,010 know the Ethereum, for like running Ethereum if they're not 846 00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:52,810 transacting like basically covering our node and node 847 00:51:52,810 --> 00:51:55,010 costs. So most of the services on Web 848 00:51:55,010 --> 00:51:59,010 two, you would pay premium only for the features that you really 849 00:51:59,010 --> 00:52:02,050 want and not just like them running from the AWS, sure. 850 00:52:02,050 --> 00:52:05,570 So I think the analogy here is similar. 851 00:52:05,570 --> 00:52:10,050 So we are moving, we are releasing this premium kind of 852 00:52:10,050 --> 00:52:15,330 in the more finalized state this, yeah next month as well. 853 00:52:15,850 --> 00:52:19,450 So that would be we'll see basically what our users are 854 00:52:20,170 --> 00:52:23,250 interested in paying for like if we provide them with premium, 855 00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:27,550 can we provide them a few transactions in months for free. 856 00:52:28,070 --> 00:52:32,310 But these are all more of the economics questions and we need 857 00:52:32,310 --> 00:52:36,110 to test how it really works. Yeah, I'm more excited of like 858 00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:40,830 basically if we, if we have the chain, so users are interested 859 00:52:40,830 --> 00:52:42,230 in paying for transactions, right. 860 00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:45,270 So that's pretty much universal and currently all of that 861 00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:48,750 revenue goes towards the chains themselves and none of that goes 862 00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:50,910 to wallets and this is a problem. 863 00:52:50,910 --> 00:52:54,350 So that I think that value distribution have to switch. 864 00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:58,420 So either chains start sharing more with the originators of 865 00:52:58,420 --> 00:53:04,140 transactions or yeah chain or while it's become kind of like 866 00:53:04,140 --> 00:53:07,780 more vertically integrated with their own chains. 867 00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:14,260 I think that would be. That's my prediction for the 868 00:53:14,260 --> 00:53:17,500 future, cuz this revenue stream exists, the users are willing to 869 00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:19,700 pay a lot of money for fees for settlements. 870 00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:23,660 Yeah, absolutely. I take it it's not on the near 871 00:53:23,660 --> 00:53:27,220 term roadmap, but kind of where would you see that in terms of 872 00:53:27,220 --> 00:53:29,220 like future developments for Xerion? 873 00:53:30,260 --> 00:53:35,100 I don't think it's so we are very agile still as the startup. 874 00:53:35,940 --> 00:53:40,020 So first of all, you never know. I think that that's the short 875 00:53:40,020 --> 00:53:42,140 answer. We we are convening with 876 00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:48,420 basically a portion of our team later in October to talk about 877 00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:53,490 what we should be focusing on really in 2024 as the big 878 00:53:53,490 --> 00:53:56,210 priority. So for 2023 the the goal was to 879 00:53:56,210 --> 00:53:59,810 build the bullets the best world for our pre citizens and we are 880 00:54:01,450 --> 00:54:03,970 almost complete with that. So with the extension release 881 00:54:03,970 --> 00:54:07,210 that would be basically what we wanted to achieve. 882 00:54:08,930 --> 00:54:12,810 And yeah, the next phase is a little up in the year. 883 00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:16,810 So we'll we can talk about that probably early next year. 884 00:54:17,570 --> 00:54:20,050 OK, cool. And what else are you excited 885 00:54:20,050 --> 00:54:24,600 about in the ecosystem there are quite a lot of things actually. 886 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,200 But honestly this whole up chain movement is what I'm really, 887 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,720 really interested in. It's not that like we haven't 888 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:38,560 known that already, but with I think we're getting, we're 889 00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:42,640 opening up an Ave. with with scalability we're opening up an 890 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,640 Ave. for more types of applications that are feasible. 891 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:52,230 So I think D5 was only possible because like only D5 as possible 892 00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:55,910 because block space was extremely expensive so only 893 00:54:55,910 --> 00:55:00,270 financial applications that run for Wales would work. 894 00:55:01,030 --> 00:55:04,830 But now we can see for example with friends, tech or like even 895 00:55:04,830 --> 00:55:09,110 lens a little earlier this year that people are excited about 896 00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:12,990 social use cases. For example with all the publish 897 00:55:12,990 --> 00:55:17,310 shake with mirror or sound XYZ where artists can directly 898 00:55:17,310 --> 00:55:20,370 connect with fans. These are the use cases that are 899 00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:23,650 very new and only were possible because of the layer 2 adoption 900 00:55:24,490 --> 00:55:28,810 and kind of acceptance of layer two as also feasible Ave. for 901 00:55:28,810 --> 00:55:33,210 for settlement and I'm I'm excited to see more stuff that 902 00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:36,970 is very much web three native that is built using the 903 00:55:36,970 --> 00:55:39,330 capabilities of more scalable networks. 904 00:55:41,050 --> 00:55:43,570 That's that would be like the short answer. 905 00:55:45,070 --> 00:55:48,670 Fantastic. So where will users learn 906 00:55:48,790 --> 00:55:51,510 whether Serion Chain will be launched? 907 00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:54,990 Where can they follow you? Is it on Twitter or do you have 908 00:55:54,990 --> 00:55:58,310 a Discord? We've been the router for a long 909 00:55:58,310 --> 00:56:00,190 time. We have actually over 100,000 910 00:56:00,190 --> 00:56:04,350 people on our Discord. So yeah, whatever your 911 00:56:04,350 --> 00:56:07,470 preference is Twitter. You can type in Zerion or 912 00:56:07,470 --> 00:56:11,430 Discord as well. I think the ideal way is just to 913 00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:14,770 go ahead and try our wallet. If you are still using Matter 914 00:56:14,770 --> 00:56:21,210 mask we call Health and Switch, we have a bunch of people being 915 00:56:21,210 --> 00:56:23,450 super happy about it. If you want to provide feedback, 916 00:56:23,930 --> 00:56:27,930 you can ping me anywhere on Twitter for example, and I'll 917 00:56:27,970 --> 00:56:32,730 add you to the better test service group so you can shape 918 00:56:32,730 --> 00:56:34,850 the future of Zerian together with us. 919 00:56:35,970 --> 00:56:38,330 Perfect. Thank you, Evgeni, for joining 920 00:56:38,330 --> 00:56:40,250 us today. Thank you very much. 921 00:56:40,250 --> 00:56:44,780 It was a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on this 922 00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:47,140 week's episode. We release new episodes every 923 00:56:47,140 --> 00:56:49,140 week. You can find and subscribe to 924 00:56:49,140 --> 00:56:52,940 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 925 00:56:52,940 --> 00:56:55,340 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 926 00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:58,140 Alexa device, you can tell it To listen to the latest episode of 927 00:56:58,140 --> 00:57:02,180 the Epicenter podcast, go to epicenter.tv, subscribe for a 928 00:57:02,180 --> 00:57:03,820 full list of places where you can watch and listen. 929 00:57:03,820 --> 00:57:06,740 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 930 00:57:06,740 --> 00:57:09,060 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 931 00:57:09,060 --> 00:57:12,340 If you want to interact with us guest or other podcast 932 00:57:12,340 --> 00:57:13,980 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter. 933 00:57:14,380 --> 00:57:15,940 And please leave us a review on iTunes. 934 00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:18,380 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 935 00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:20,740 them. So thanks so much and we look 936 00:57:20,740 --> 00:57:29,700 forward to being back next week. I want it.