1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,140 The hack was one of them the pivotal moments of 2 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:07,220 bitfinex That was incredible. I 3 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:10,500 think by by in seven months I think by by April 4 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:14,580 2017 all the outstanding the effects tokens were 5 00:00:14,580 --> 00:00:18,380 either, you know Converted redeemed or or converted in 6 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:22,840 inequities the really simple idea around Tether was 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,400 okay. Let's reuse the incredible 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,660 Technology that Bitcoin created the cold blockchain. 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,580 Let's just put The US dollar 10 00:00:31,580 --> 00:00:34,400 because it's the most used currency in the world. I 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,180 always say that Before 2022 we never had even a 12 00:00:39,180 --> 00:00:43,720 marketing team for tether so tether USDT has becoming 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,220 Really important for hundreds of millions of 14 00:00:47,220 --> 00:00:49,140 people across the board especially in emerging 15 00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:50,440 markets and developing countries 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,940 This Episode is brought to you by gnosis Gnosis builds 17 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:10,900 decentralized infrastructure for the ethereum ecosystem 18 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:15,080 with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,220 like safe cow swap or gnosis chain Gnosis combines 20 00:01:19,220 --> 00:01:22,620 needs driven development with deep technical 21 00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:26,660 expertise This year marks the launch of gnosis pay 22 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:29,280 the world's first decentralized payment network 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,340 With a gnosis card you can spend self -custody crypto 24 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:36,460 at any visa accepting merchant around the world 25 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:39,580 If you're an individual looking to live more on 26 00:01:39,580 --> 00:01:42,600 -chain or a business looking to white label the stack 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,920 Visit gnosis pay comm There are lots of ways you can 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,480 join the gnosis journey drop in the gnosis Dow 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,540 governance form Become a gnosis validator with a 30 00:01:53,540 --> 00:01:57,340 single gno token and low -cost hardware or deploy 31 00:01:57,340 --> 00:02:00,360 your product on the evm compatible and highly 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,700 decentralized gnosis chain Get started today at gnosis 33 00:02:04,700 --> 00:02:09,580 .io Chorus one is one of the biggest node operators 34 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:12,900 globally and help you stake your tokens on 45 plus 35 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:16,800 networks like ethereum cosmos celestia and dy dx 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,040 More than a hundred thousand delegators stake 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,700 with chorus one including institutions like bit go 38 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:26,320 and ledger Staking with chorus one not only gets 39 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,980 you the highest years But also the most robust 40 00:02:29,980 --> 00:02:32,760 security practices and infrastructure that are 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,220 usually exclusive for institutions You can stake 42 00:02:36,220 --> 00:02:38,560 directly to chorus ones public node from your 43 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,300 wallet set up a white label node or use the 44 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:45,340 recently launched product Opus to stake up to 8 ,000 45 00:02:45,340 --> 00:02:49,280 ETH in a single transaction You can even offer high 46 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,760 yield staking to your own customers using their API 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,900 Your assets always remain in your custody so you can 48 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,060 have complete peace of mind start staking today at 49 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:03,080 chorus dot one Welcome to ebsenner the show which 50 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,420 talks about the technology projects and people driving 51 00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:07,660 decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm 52 00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:10,440 Brian Crane and I'm today here with Frederica Ernst 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,740 Today we speak with Paulo Ardourino who is the CEO 54 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:17,620 and co -founder of tether and CTO of Bitfinex And 55 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:20,300 also working on another new thing called hole punch 56 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:23,300 which we'll talk about so Of course some enormously 57 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:26,360 influential projects in the crypto space most important 58 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,380 most of this tether So really excited to get to 59 00:03:29,380 --> 00:03:32,060 get into this. Well, thanks so much for coming 60 00:03:32,060 --> 00:03:33,800 on. It's really great to have you 61 00:03:34,820 --> 00:03:38,080 Thank you for having me We're gay right into it. I 62 00:03:38,088 --> 00:03:40,399 mean you've been in crypto for a really long time and 63 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,720 Have worked on and many different things, but how 64 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,520 did it all start? Like how did you become 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,560 interested in crypto and what triggered your 66 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:55,500 imagination? so 2024 is my 10th year in 67 00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:58,580 business in crypto, you know, I discovered Bitcoin 68 00:03:58,580 --> 00:04:04,180 in 2013 So I've been a developer all my life Now 69 00:04:04,180 --> 00:04:08,880 I'm focusing more on business and Strategy but I 70 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,460 was born as a developer since I was eight years 71 00:04:11,460 --> 00:04:15,180 old like was coding No, I was living in a really 72 00:04:15,180 --> 00:04:19,279 small town outside of the city and Didn't have many 73 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,860 friends around so, you know, I spend almost all 74 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:24,780 of my afternoons with a computer so fast forward 75 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:28,660 went to the university in Genoa in Italy and the 76 00:04:28,660 --> 00:04:34,100 study math applied to computer science and and my 77 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:39,920 I'm also big sci -fi fan, so my Dream and my 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,180 interest in technology was all about building things 79 00:04:44,180 --> 00:04:46,820 building technological solutions that would be 80 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,520 Resisting to apocalypse, right? So, 81 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,620 you know in the house sci -fi you there's always 82 00:04:52,620 --> 00:04:55,540 problems for the world, you know Things getting for 83 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:59,100 going for the worst You have either wars or you 84 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:01,980 have aliens or you have to abandon the earth and go 85 00:05:01,980 --> 00:05:06,300 somewhere else and so on so That's that thing in in 86 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:09,860 always Was sticking to my mind on how, you know, 87 00:05:09,860 --> 00:05:13,160 whatever we do whatever we build should not be built 88 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,180 for the best case scenario But should be built for 89 00:05:16,180 --> 00:05:20,700 the worst case scenario And so, you know, I started as 90 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:26,780 soon as I graduated with from the university. I 91 00:05:26,780 --> 00:05:29,760 was a researcher in the university So I was 92 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,900 building resilient telecommunications systems 93 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:37,840 for distressed situations like battlefields and You 94 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,380 know that taught me how to be you can build Really 95 00:05:41,380 --> 00:05:45,020 resilient networks that are you know, really critical 96 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:48,920 and crucial in certain moments Then as most of 97 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,400 the time happens in Italy, you don't pay you don't 98 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,280 get paid too much so, you know the That's the 99 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:59,120 unfortunately situation of Italy, so I decided to 100 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,240 move to a field that I thought was More rewarding 101 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,160 at least in economical pay that was finance So I got 102 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 my first job in finance in in actually in Switzerland 103 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,020 And then I decided to move in London to London to 104 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:16,220 open my startup to build the financial software so 105 00:06:16,220 --> 00:06:21,900 in 2012 I opened the startup and in 2013 I I 106 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:27,440 was Already really annoyed by the outdated technology 107 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,520 that the financial system was relying on If you 108 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,120 haven't worked with Banks or hedge funds and so you 109 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,060 know that every time They trade anytime a trader 110 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:41,520 trades for an institution for a hedge fund At the 111 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,400 end of the day, you have to reconcile all the 112 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,740 positions all the trades all the cash balances 113 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:49,300 across multiple trading venues across multiple banks 114 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:53,880 and custodians and All that is speaking tense of 115 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,620 different protocols is kept together by rubber and 116 00:06:56,620 --> 00:07:00,400 bands is all Really outdated feels like he's 117 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,800 all still written in Kabul 40 years ago, so in 2013 118 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,920 I got to the chance to learn about Bitcoin and The 119 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,400 first thing that I thought about Bitcoin was okay. 120 00:07:14,420 --> 00:07:17,680 This is really cool This is not 121 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,240 not just I didn't get immediately. Honestly 122 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:27,860 the Humanitarian and social implications but I Got the 123 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:31,020 technology aspect and I thought that Bitcoin could 124 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:36,580 be the solution for The financial board in terms of 125 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:39,240 having a common settlement network across all the 126 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,980 institutions across all the governments the beautiful 127 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:44,700 thing about Bitcoin as a blockchain is that you can 128 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,920 Everyone had that has a synced note. She's 129 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,380 the same thing, right? So you you cannot have ever 130 00:07:51,380 --> 00:07:53,420 seen reconciliation and so on so it's beautiful 131 00:07:53,420 --> 00:07:57,240 prevents double spending and and and so on so I was 132 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,480 really excited about it and then at the end of 2013 I 133 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,220 thought really I was really deep in the rabbit hole 134 00:08:04,220 --> 00:08:07,420 and so I started understanding more How 135 00:08:07,420 --> 00:08:11,060 Bitcoin is actually a game changer as a currency for 136 00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:16,380 and its social impact could be incredible so long story 137 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:21,800 short in 2014 I got the chance of of working for 138 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,660 Bitveen X so Bitveen X was one of the first trading 139 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:29,420 platforms Was really one of probably the only and first 140 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:31,840 trading platform that at the time was offering 141 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,080 margin trading on Bitcoin and so The CFO Jack 142 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,280 Alivazzini of Bitveen X contacted me through a 143 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:45,020 common friend and we He asked my Help in in making 144 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:47,540 sure that between a scoot scale with a demand right 145 00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:51,860 2014 is not 2024 of course we are seeing today that a 146 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:56,780 huge demand of Bitcoin You know brought by by ETFs 147 00:08:56,780 --> 00:09:00,500 and so on but in 2014 still there was an 148 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:04,520 increasing demand for for for accessing Bitcoin 149 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,080 trading and so most of the exchanges in 2014 were 150 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:15,520 built by Amateur is not the right term is is not 151 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,320 about you know being But we're more mostly almost e 152 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,480 -commerce is for Bitcoin rather than high performance 153 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,520 trading platforms today We are used to have super low 154 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,020 latency high frequency trading and so on but back 155 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:29,960 in time was kind of different So I brought my 156 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,800 expertise in in building in building the you know the 157 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,300 Bitveen X platform and the setting up team in 2016 I 158 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:42,040 became the CTO of Bitveen X and in 2017 I became 159 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,260 the C is CTO of also tether and then from there 160 00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:51,380 I started working also on the stable coin side for 161 00:09:51,380 --> 00:09:56,440 tether and more recently I started to care more about 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,140 long -term strategy vision and Grow with all the 163 00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:04,280 teams and execution of the strategy for for tether 164 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,060 while still I am the CTO for Bitveen X So I would 165 00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:10,940 take care of the tech platform and all the 166 00:10:10,940 --> 00:10:14,000 trading tools built around Bitveen X So this is just 167 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,000 me in ten and five minutes probably more but yeah, no 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,700 no, thank you so much for for that I'm curious Like 169 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:25,040 going a little bit into Sort of the story of 170 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,840 Bitveen X. What do you think it was that 171 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:34,100 helped? Bitveen X Succeed and and actually 172 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:37,260 there's maybe one episode that really be curious to 173 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:39,440 talk if you girls talk about I think some people 174 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,240 will So remember it right because once you guys have 175 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,700 this massive hack and then you had this very 176 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:47,520 interesting way of like Dealing with the hack that 177 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,000 I think ended up working out really well But I'd 178 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,760 also love if you could sort of talk through that 179 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,620 episode and What happened then I think this right I 180 00:10:56,620 --> 00:11:00,880 think The hack was one of them the people tell 181 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,780 moments of Bitveen X Remember that The word was 182 00:11:05,780 --> 00:11:07,760 coming. Well the Bitcoin word was coming 183 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,940 from a big hack that was the Montgauss hack, right? 184 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:14,640 So at that time when Bitcoin 185 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,240 Phoenix was hacked it was Personally a devastating 186 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,940 moment Also for of course for the company for for 187 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:29,480 our customers, but look we had two choices either let 188 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:35,600 it go and let Bit Phoenix potentially die or We could 189 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,800 roll up our sleeves and make sure that our 190 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,540 customers would get whole right So at that time when 191 00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:45,620 between it be Phoenix was hard was the second of 192 00:11:45,620 --> 00:11:50,300 August 2016 Bitcoin was around six hundred dollars 193 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,320 So they're total loss of of Bitcoin it was around 194 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:59,000 72 million dollars around 119 ,000 Bitcoin. So 195 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,680 we decided so I remember those days really well 196 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,120 because After the first day or so of assessment of 197 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,220 what happened and how we could have happened so on 198 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:13,200 we Decided to come up with a plan to resume trading 199 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,040 and make everyone whole the way that we use was 200 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:24,180 actually new and I think was extremely intelligent 201 00:12:24,180 --> 00:12:31,560 and forward -thinking so We dollarized the 72 million 202 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:36,480 dollars and we issued the so -called BFX tokens and 203 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,460 we distributed the BFX tokens across product across 204 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:44,320 the users and So also we open a market for these 205 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:50,360 BFX tokens So that people could trade their Their 206 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,040 Basically is how you use the interesting thing is 207 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,800 that these tokens had multiple functions Right so 208 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,800 people could take these tokens and convert them 209 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,060 into equity if they believe that Bit Phoenix would be 210 00:13:01,060 --> 00:13:03,860 successful in longer They could trade them on the 211 00:13:03,860 --> 00:13:09,360 market so sell them for example and They could also 212 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,540 wait for the redemption. So we Committed to redeeming 213 00:13:14,540 --> 00:13:19,620 those tokens at $1 face value with their avenues of 214 00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:23,600 the exchange So as soon as the market started so after 215 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,480 one week So it took one week to bring back the 216 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,720 platform up and running I remember that probably slept 217 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,260 two hours in a week I was completely destroyed after 218 00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:36,400 after seven days, but you know, we had to make it 219 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,280 We had to put everything we had to To to start 220 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,100 trading again because if you wait too much you 221 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:47,280 don't have you know People will just disappear will go 222 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,640 away and you know, there is no chance of success 223 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,540 anymore So we knew that we have to restart trading 224 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,800 within one week So when as soon as we started trading 225 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,840 the BFX token people started selling their BFX 226 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:04,980 tokens and the price went from one to 20 cents, you 227 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:07,920 know that they thought well these guys will never make 228 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,220 it but After the first days we had the first days 229 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:15,100 we had a huge outflow of Bitcoin from the platform 230 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:17,420 You know customers of course where we're drawing 231 00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:22,260 in panic but After a few days after 10 days 15 232 00:14:22,260 --> 00:14:25,080 days, we were back the first exchange by trading 233 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,460 volume So at the end of June at the end of August 234 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:31,560 We were the first again the biggest exchange by 235 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,000 trading volume and so by the end of September We 236 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,540 redeemed the first BFX tokens So people were like 237 00:14:40,540 --> 00:14:43,880 only cow these guys these guys are making money They 238 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,340 are buying back the tokens and so the price on the 239 00:14:46,340 --> 00:14:48,980 secondary market for this BFX token started to go up 240 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:53,240 And so then October came November came we we kept 241 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,320 making more money because also that coincided with 242 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,100 the bull run Right the start at bull run by the 243 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:01,460 end of 2016 going to 2017 That was one of the most 244 00:15:01,460 --> 00:15:04,020 incredible years for for Bitcoin in the crypto 245 00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:07,660 ecosystem So we were making really good profits buying 246 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:10,080 back the FFX tokens so more and more people start 247 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,180 to Convert their BFX tokens into equity. So 248 00:15:14,180 --> 00:15:17,580 that's how basically we got almost 300 shareholders for 249 00:15:17,580 --> 00:15:22,780 for for I -finex and That was incredible. I 250 00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:26,080 think by by in seven months I think by by April 251 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,240 2017 all the outstanding BFX tokens were either You 252 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,400 know converted redeemed or or converted in in in 253 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,960 equity. So it's I really like and 254 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,240 love to think about that part of the story because 255 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,240 I think that in In these moments of weakness is how 256 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,400 you really assess the team and I must say that no 257 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,860 one in our team Left the company everyone was focused 258 00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:52,360 on make sure that the platform would be profitable 259 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,480 to make everyone fall Yeah, to this day, it's one of 260 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,800 the biggest comebacks in in crypto history and I also 261 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,080 really appreciated The story of the BFX token and how 262 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,580 kind of you use crypto economics to kind of to 263 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:11,800 make it work for you guys So yeah tipping my head to 264 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,680 you guys So you talked about kind of, you know 265 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,680 switching out the financial rails and kind of settling 266 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,500 things on Blockchain because it makes sense and I 267 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,140 conquer 100 % so kind of we have recently started 268 00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:28,500 building financial infrastructure that kind of 269 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:33,540 crosses the chasm from blockchain to legacy finance 270 00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:37,380 and with noses pay and other such integrations and 271 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:41,140 I was Absolutely flabbergasted at the stack 272 00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:45,260 that kind of like the financial world runs on it. 273 00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:48,020 It's unbelievable So you guys in 274 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:51,900 that vein you guys started a decentralized exchange in 275 00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:56,460 2017 back when these were kind of still fairly 276 00:16:56,460 --> 00:17:01,020 marginal so It was each venex and it later 277 00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,920 rebranded to diversify and then now rhinofi How do 278 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,380 you juggle this so basically in terms of? 279 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,540 Trustlessness and so on obviously having 280 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:14,000 a dex is preferable to having a centralized 281 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,300 exchange in some sense because kind of like 282 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:18,540 everything is Transparent kind of the spirit is 283 00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:20,359 there. So how do you see the 284 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,520 coexistence of both of these bronze branches? So 285 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,220 I think that the beauty of of big venex and this 286 00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:30,080 group that is always You know, there is this meme 287 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,900 of being in for for the tech, right? So 288 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:36,400 then you know, you have people with big gold chains 289 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,780 and and so on but We have been always really in in 290 00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:43,620 this field for for the tech, right? We 291 00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:47,420 always try to push the boundaries of tech even 292 00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:51,360 when Dexys were not a thing we thought how we 293 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,460 could Make sure that people if people are not 294 00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:58,000 comfortable in leaving their tokens and their money on 295 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:03,520 the exchanges how we can make the Experience their 296 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,620 user experience great in a sense that centralized 297 00:18:06,620 --> 00:18:10,240 exchanges have the advantage of being extremely fast in 298 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,620 execution because the Think about the fact that now 299 00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:18,260 the average latency of an order on beat phoenix is 300 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:21,660 around in the internal system is around the ten 301 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,560 Microseconds between ten and twenty microseconds, right? 302 00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:27,300 So that's how you scale you 303 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,500 can handle any sort of volume the and so and you 304 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:34,480 can only do that through a centralized platform because 305 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,820 Even the fastest blockchains like so Anna, they have a 306 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:40,260 block time of 400 milliseconds So that is 307 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:43,180 incredibly incredibly longer is like an eternity 308 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,760 compared to the latency that you have in a 309 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,400 centralized system But you know the problem there is 310 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,160 just something in physics called the speed of light, 311 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,620 right? The information goes up to the 312 00:18:53,620 --> 00:18:56,900 speed of light and so you cannot Move information if 313 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,400 you have multiple nodes that have to concur to the 314 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,080 same information they have to agree they have to 315 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,420 exchange information that speed is the speed of 316 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:11,000 light and so as Fast as it can be if you have to 317 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,580 have two different Do different round trips around 318 00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:15,940 the world because you one node could be Tokyo one 319 00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:17,580 could be Switzerland the other one could be in the 320 00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:20,660 US Then you know you get to four hundred five 321 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:23,500 hundred milliseconds of a minimum time that is needed 322 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:27,660 for a blockchain and So for a DAX to in terms of 323 00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:31,720 latency Now so the way we approach this is what are 324 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,180 the pros and cons of a DAX compared to a 325 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:38,500 centralized exchange? And for us the most important 326 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,420 part was the having the ability of keeping it Your 327 00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:48,160 own custody while trading so being able to trade as 328 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,700 fast as fast as you can with the normal centralized 329 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:54,540 user experience, but at the same time keeping control 330 00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:57,620 over your custody I think that is the holy grail of 331 00:19:57,620 --> 00:20:01,240 of finance if I have to think it through of course 332 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,180 the the other important part is The transparency 333 00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:07,380 right so you want to make sure that people don't 334 00:20:07,380 --> 00:20:10,200 front around you and so on but I think that the 335 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,860 transparency Can be on one side of course on the DAX 336 00:20:14,860 --> 00:20:16,560 is you have transparency, but you have a normal 337 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,640 latency So you can also we had there were also cases 338 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,740 in which people were front -run because you know they 339 00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:28,840 you looking at the mem pool looking at you know 340 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,760 the you know have even the The the validators for 341 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,180 example who can front -run people because they receive 342 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:39,860 the transactions a little bit sooner So there are 343 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:42,900 also problems like that in index right so to me the 344 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,960 holy grail and the big Advantage of a DAX is the 345 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,460 ability of letting people control their own funds So 346 00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:53,620 that's why we started fnx in that way as of today. 347 00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:56,440 I think you know the There 348 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:00,760 is another Or there was another interesting kind of 349 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,020 advantage of DAX is versus centralized exchanges that 350 00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:09,120 is privacy or Anonymity if you want if you will right 351 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,540 so with DAX is you usually log in with you with your 352 00:21:13,540 --> 00:21:18,280 metamask and so you know or whatever other wallet 353 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,700 you have and Then you you can start trading 354 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:23,200 immediately. You don't have to go through 355 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,960 KYC ML and so on but My opinion as of today seen 356 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,200 also Mika and the other regulations that part that 357 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,080 advantage of DAX is will come to an end I think is 358 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,600 you know regulators make it made it abundant and clear 359 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,420 that if you trade against Someone else and that 360 00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:49,920 someone else is a person that is sanctioned The fact 361 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,200 that you are using a DAX is not going to save you 362 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,980 or create a justification for you So basically what 363 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:59,320 will end up in my opinion and from what I gather 364 00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:03,540 Being the only advantage of DAX is that is still a 365 00:22:03,540 --> 00:22:06,980 great advantage Is the ability to keep in your 366 00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:10,580 own custody of the funds and not be subject to a 367 00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:15,160 potential exchange hacks So we'll see the future is 368 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,540 Will will tell us who you know power thing these 369 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:26,220 things will develop. I Relate in a bit to the 370 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:28,360 sort of big for next journey, but also like more 371 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,860 generally if you journey like as an entrepreneur I 372 00:22:30,860 --> 00:22:34,860 mean you mentioned sort of like how the team sort of 373 00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:38,580 made it through all of that and and like You 374 00:22:38,580 --> 00:22:42,320 mentioned also like how you you have to focus on tech 375 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,940 I'm curious like how do you think about you know 376 00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:49,080 building an organization and like company culture and 377 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,800 like what are sort of the main learnings you've had 378 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,300 in that regard so far Between Bitfinex and tether 379 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,320 We had a really really really low Number of 380 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,980 defections. I think in I don't know in 381 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:07,600 in in ten years. We could count it less than 382 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:12,620 You know two or three percent People stick here. 383 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,020 I Think the reason is the 384 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:18,900 culture the culture is really about openness 385 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,760 Kindness We there is a first rule that I have so 386 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,520 myself and and couple other people in them in the 387 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,900 Chief positions we do every single final interview 388 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:37,400 Right, so we still do all the final interviews. 389 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,480 Although we are growing the number 390 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,340 one rule is never hired don't hire a toxic person 391 00:23:45,179 --> 00:23:50,480 So you sometimes have amazing talent, but to be 392 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,640 every early Could be challenging for the team 393 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,340 Right, you don't if you hire the wrong person if 394 00:23:57,340 --> 00:24:01,840 that person will affect 10 10 people around them, 395 00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:05,940 right? So the ability sometimes, you 396 00:24:05,940 --> 00:24:08,100 know, and as I said I've been a developer sometimes 397 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:11,700 you see developers that get all cocky because you know, 398 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,880 they are right and everyone else is wrong or because 399 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,840 they have you know the They they are all the only 400 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,600 ones that That have the truth on how things should 401 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,100 be architect, right? And so We are really careful 402 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,460 in in hiring people that understand the value of 403 00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:34,320 collaboration within the teams and that's something 404 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,000 that So far over time allowed Bitfinex to remain 405 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,740 one of the top platforms in the crypto ecosystem 406 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:46,600 while having probably one tenth to one fifth of the 407 00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:52,640 the headcount of of other platforms, so That's that's 408 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,260 of something about you know creating and healthy team 409 00:24:55,260 --> 00:24:58,300 healthy responsibilities and chain of responsibilities 410 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:01,260 people really committed to the success of the company 411 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:07,250 and So I think you know the the biggest Take away 412 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:10,410 from from my career is focus on the team focus on 413 00:25:10,410 --> 00:25:14,350 the people and you will have success Now I really 414 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:18,030 appreciate you saying that let's talk about Ted or 415 00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:21,690 like how how did Teddy get started? Ted 416 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:26,250 are starting 2014 as a really simple product a 417 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:31,330 simple idea in 2014 they were Just few exchanges 418 00:25:31,330 --> 00:25:34,070 right you could count, you know the exchange of the 419 00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:37,550 crypto currency exchange is on the on the Fingers of 420 00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:40,610 two hands. There was Bitfinex of course beat 421 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:46,990 stamp kraken coin base there was ok coin and BTCC 422 00:25:47,530 --> 00:25:51,230 not not many others at least not many relevant 423 00:25:51,230 --> 00:25:55,870 others and so There was a mean to the at the end of 424 00:25:55,870 --> 00:25:59,770 2013 It was also the first moment in history that 425 00:25:59,770 --> 00:26:03,890 Bitcoin broke one thousand dollar in price and Across 426 00:26:03,890 --> 00:26:06,890 multiple trading venues right so you had maybe one 427 00:26:06,890 --> 00:26:09,730 point two thousand dollars at any point in time There 428 00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:15,610 was a huge spread across exchanges Up to 20 % right 429 00:26:15,610 --> 00:26:19,030 so some exchanges were at one point two K others 430 00:26:19,030 --> 00:26:24,630 were at 950 others were at one thousand there isn't is 431 00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:30,370 that By then the work of the arbitrageurs was not 432 00:26:30,370 --> 00:26:33,250 possible the arbitrageurs are those kind of traders 433 00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:37,510 that sell Bitcoin where on the exchange where the 434 00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:40,250 price is higher they send it for dollars They take 435 00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:42,390 the dollars they move the dollars on the exchange 436 00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:45,570 where the price is lower They use these dollars to 437 00:26:45,570 --> 00:26:48,950 buy Bitcoin and then send the Bitcoin on the exchange 438 00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:50,950 where the price is higher and so on and so forth 439 00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:53,870 They do it in the loop so that this the the spread 440 00:26:53,870 --> 00:26:57,610 across these Exchanges will go down and they all get 441 00:26:57,610 --> 00:27:01,110 aligned In order to do this you have to you need 442 00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:04,810 to be able to move Bitcoin From one exchange exchange 443 00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:07,370 to the other but also you need to be able to move 444 00:27:07,370 --> 00:27:11,990 dollars from one exchange to another but Moving dot 445 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:14,370 moving Bitcoin takes the minutes right the average 446 00:27:14,370 --> 00:27:17,210 block that Bitcoin is the minutes but moving dollars 447 00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:20,490 is extremely More difficult sometimes, you know 448 00:27:20,490 --> 00:27:23,110 international wires might take one days two days 449 00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:26,230 three days seven days and there is the weekend so 450 00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:29,490 Your trading opportunity your arbitrage opportunity 451 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:34,190 is long gone if you wait so much So the really 452 00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:38,030 simple idea around Tatter was okay. Let's 453 00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:41,330 reuse the incredible Technology that Bitcoin 454 00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:43,430 created the cold blockchain. Let's 455 00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:46,650 just put The US dollar because it's the most used 456 00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:49,610 currency in the world simple as that Back in 457 00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:53,570 back in at that time, you know, there was no it here 458 00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:57,170 yet So the way to do it the only platform that 459 00:27:57,170 --> 00:27:59,810 allowed that was called Omni layer that is a color 460 00:27:59,810 --> 00:28:04,910 coin system That is based on Bitcoin So tatter was 461 00:28:04,910 --> 00:28:08,830 born on Omni layer fast forward many years and you 462 00:28:08,830 --> 00:28:12,350 know tatter started as a Simple project to allow art 463 00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:17,250 to make more efficient crypto trading but in 2019 464 00:28:17,250 --> 00:28:21,630 2020 with a pandemic something changed you know 465 00:28:21,630 --> 00:28:24,810 with the economies of the world especially in emerging 466 00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:30,170 markets developing countries They they started to Have 467 00:28:30,170 --> 00:28:33,490 big issues who are seen argentina, turkey vietnam, 468 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:37,410 venezuela so many others, you know all these National 469 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:39,670 currencies are re devaluating against the 470 00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:42,010 dollar really really quickly in some cases. I 471 00:28:42,010 --> 00:28:45,830 think that argentina paces lost 98 against the us 472 00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:49,550 dollar in five years and More than 80 was lost by 473 00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:52,670 the turkish leader. So All the people people 474 00:28:52,670 --> 00:28:56,690 living those countries where You know these people need 475 00:28:56,690 --> 00:29:00,650 needed solution needed the way out needed the way to 476 00:29:00,650 --> 00:29:04,650 save their wealth right who is not about speculation 477 00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:08,990 here is about A father of a family that works the 478 00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:11,870 entire year to earn for example turkish leaders at 479 00:29:11,870 --> 00:29:14,550 the end of the year is poorer Compared to the 480 00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:17,030 beginning of the year just because it's national his 481 00:29:17,030 --> 00:29:21,850 national currency went down the bin and so people have 482 00:29:22,570 --> 00:29:25,750 A survival instinct and so they started to look at 483 00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:28,910 solutions and usd t was already the most used 484 00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:35,210 solution That that could help them so usd t became 485 00:29:35,210 --> 00:29:39,350 basically this this This currency that the world 486 00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:44,810 started to use and to To build on all the in all 487 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:47,470 the emerging markets now if you go in argentina and 488 00:29:47,470 --> 00:29:50,170 Buenos iris You have find ton of places where you 489 00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:52,910 can be campaigned usd t Same happens in venezuela 490 00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:55,830 in so many other countries and i must say we didn't 491 00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:57,910 envision that we didn't think about it When we 492 00:29:57,910 --> 00:30:01,610 created tether was really a simple idea and so we are 493 00:30:01,610 --> 00:30:06,370 humbled by the success of of usd t I always say 494 00:30:06,370 --> 00:30:11,370 that Before 2022 we never had even a marketing team 495 00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:15,790 for tether and so You know people started using our 496 00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:19,270 product in the way they saw more fit And in the 497 00:30:19,270 --> 00:30:21,110 way that was more helpful to them. So 498 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:24,570 that that is really exciting Can you give us 499 00:30:24,570 --> 00:30:27,710 an idea of how it's used today? So 500 00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:30,110 kind of in in percentage kind of like what what 501 00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:34,070 percentage is kind of like What i would call normie 502 00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:37,810 use so kind of like the the turkish father or The 503 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:41,890 argentinian family mother who kind of keeps their 504 00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:45,190 salary in tether in order to spend it as efficiently 505 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:50,350 a couple of months later So it's really Just to say 506 00:30:50,350 --> 00:30:52,710 it's really hard to pinpoint the exact figures 507 00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:55,250 because in you know, we are living in a 508 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:59,270 decentralized world And so information is captured but 509 00:30:59,270 --> 00:31:03,909 um as of today, I think that at least 50 of the 510 00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:08,310 tether in circulation the usd t in circulations in 511 00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:13,290 circulation are kept as savings and not necessarily 512 00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:16,890 used for trading so That is a great achievement 513 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:20,330 because I think it changed It happened in in four 514 00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:24,390 years right in four years people had this incredible 515 00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:29,530 bad situation of suffering financial suffering and I 516 00:31:29,530 --> 00:31:34,450 always say that we are Kind of an weird weird 517 00:31:34,450 --> 00:31:38,410 weird situation at tether because we We see that if 518 00:31:38,410 --> 00:31:42,470 we have more success means that the world Is going 519 00:31:42,470 --> 00:31:47,610 towards a worse place right because you know the That's 520 00:31:47,610 --> 00:31:49,970 the the reason for all these countries to look at 521 00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:51,850 the dollar is because something is not working 522 00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:54,870 their own country and the Easiest way to have access 523 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:58,790 to the dollar is usd t so In one way someone could 524 00:31:58,790 --> 00:32:01,990 see of course is a success for a company But is is 525 00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:04,110 um it's had anything to see that you know to 526 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:08,630 understand that success is also determined by In 527 00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:12,710 parting competency uh from from um, you know um 528 00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:16,650 financial management for of many countries and uh, you 529 00:32:16,650 --> 00:32:21,850 know, um the inability To preserve preserve wealth 530 00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:24,990 From government in these countries that led people 531 00:32:24,990 --> 00:32:29,450 to fly towards a more a safer currency You've moved 532 00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:33,390 um stack or you have kind of added stacks over The 533 00:32:33,390 --> 00:32:35,590 last couple of years so as you said kind of you guys 534 00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:38,750 started out on omni And then you added ethereum and 535 00:32:38,750 --> 00:32:42,370 now you see usd t is natively issued on a number 536 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:46,470 of networks How do you determine which chains to? 537 00:32:47,290 --> 00:32:49,030 Um to issue natively on so 538 00:32:49,030 --> 00:32:52,650 basically basically if you if you look at Payments on 539 00:32:52,650 --> 00:32:55,650 chain tether on tron this kind of where it's at at 540 00:32:55,650 --> 00:32:59,050 the moment So how how how do you kind of see these 541 00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:01,390 movements? How do they happen? Um, 542 00:33:01,550 --> 00:33:07,770 do you plan them? yeah so We listen to communities 543 00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:12,590 and Every time we deploy usd t on the chain We do 544 00:33:12,590 --> 00:33:15,850 an enormous amount of the divisions that goes from 545 00:33:15,850 --> 00:33:18,430 the security of of the blockchain. So 546 00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:22,830 how is you know the um the technology is built to 547 00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:27,530 the interest of a real community And the actual 548 00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:31,010 ecosystem around such blockchain Right is 549 00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:34,150 pointless to list to add usd t to a chain that 550 00:33:34,150 --> 00:33:37,730 doesn't have Users or interests because then you 551 00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:40,950 know, we we expose ourselves to risks while 552 00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:43,630 not You know getting any benefit in terms of 553 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:47,550 adoption so The interesting and I get this question a 554 00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:49,810 lot an interesting thing about tron is that you 555 00:33:49,810 --> 00:33:52,210 know, we launched first ethereum Well, first there 556 00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:56,390 was a tether omni then There was usd t was 557 00:33:56,390 --> 00:33:59,150 launched on ethereum and then was launched on on 558 00:33:59,150 --> 00:34:03,010 tron People choose whatever they want, right? So 559 00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:06,190 people choose the transport layer of usd t they want 560 00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:10,190 We just to be clear. We are centralized stablecoin. 561 00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:12,630 So all our Features and 562 00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:14,989 capabilities are shared across the different 563 00:34:14,989 --> 00:34:17,770 Blockshins for example, we can freeze us at seats. 564 00:34:17,989 --> 00:34:18,969 It's public right? We 565 00:34:18,969 --> 00:34:22,389 can freeze wallets working for working with law 566 00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:25,070 enforcement That is something that applies to 567 00:34:25,070 --> 00:34:28,190 all the different blockchains and so People 568 00:34:28,190 --> 00:34:30,670 just choose the transport layer. So 569 00:34:30,670 --> 00:34:33,670 the blockchain for usd t that is more fitting to 570 00:34:33,670 --> 00:34:37,969 them and 99 % of of the people would always choose 571 00:34:37,969 --> 00:34:40,489 something that is faster and something that is 572 00:34:40,489 --> 00:34:45,230 cheaper Let's think about how what I said before so 573 00:34:45,230 --> 00:34:49,750 tether usd t has becoming Really important for 574 00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:51,949 hundreds of millions of people across the board, 575 00:34:51,989 --> 00:34:53,650 especially in emerging markets and developing 576 00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:57,190 countries you know, we we don't support us customers 577 00:34:57,190 --> 00:35:01,730 and I don't think europeans need stablecoins either. 578 00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:06,050 That is that is my take So the 579 00:35:06,050 --> 00:35:09,430 vast vast majority of tether users is all in 580 00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:11,010 emerging markets and developing countries 581 00:35:11,010 --> 00:35:14,490 Countries that we as we said They you know, their 582 00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:16,750 initial currencies is losing really quickly as the 583 00:35:16,750 --> 00:35:20,890 dollar and where you know One every dollar or 584 00:35:20,890 --> 00:35:24,990 transaction fee is extremely important We have we have 585 00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:29,810 seen after 2018 2017 how many times the theorem gas 586 00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:35,370 fees they grew through, you know from $2 to 50 dollars 587 00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:38,170 to 100 dollars right every time there is some 588 00:35:38,170 --> 00:35:42,890 excitement the gas fees goes go crazy high and so 589 00:35:43,650 --> 00:35:47,610 Tron had really low gas fees For for a long time 590 00:35:47,610 --> 00:35:51,770 right tron had this Is more centralized as this 591 00:35:51,770 --> 00:35:55,010 system of validators and for a long time had You 592 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:56,810 know proof of stake compared to proof of work 593 00:35:56,810 --> 00:35:59,250 the theorem moved from proof of work to proof of 594 00:35:59,250 --> 00:36:03,130 stake more recently So, you know the throne was a 595 00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:06,590 simplified approach to evm that was extremely effectful 596 00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:10,790 because you know all this In think about africa and 597 00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:13,790 south america and the central america certain 598 00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:17,110 countries of asia You know even 50 cents of 599 00:36:17,110 --> 00:36:20,850 transaction fees are really high right So maybe they 600 00:36:20,850 --> 00:36:24,550 earn 50 dollars to 200 dollars in a month And if 601 00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:26,950 they have to spend five dollars every time they 602 00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:30,950 send a transaction that is not a product for them the 603 00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:33,690 interesting and sometimes, you know the the ethereal 604 00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:37,770 community criticized Us a little bit because you know 605 00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:42,110 the tron is still heavily used the reality is that 606 00:36:42,690 --> 00:36:45,650 Ethereum had to for ethereal took four years to 607 00:36:45,650 --> 00:36:49,670 come up with the layer two solutions That would bring 608 00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:53,870 down the fees to a variable Value right for 609 00:36:53,870 --> 00:36:57,690 the vast majority of the users of blockchain And so 610 00:36:57,690 --> 00:37:00,730 for if you give to a competitor that would be 611 00:37:00,730 --> 00:37:03,030 tron in this case four years of first mover 612 00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:06,170 advantage Of course, it's really hard to take it 613 00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:08,870 back Especially when also all these layers two 614 00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:13,130 solutions built on ethereum are completely Are anyway 615 00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:14,830 competing with each other as well. It's 616 00:37:14,830 --> 00:37:17,850 like, you know the sims on me where you know with the 617 00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:21,670 scots where basically um in the end everyone hates each 618 00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:26,650 other and The the reality is that we um, we are 619 00:37:26,650 --> 00:37:30,230 seeing You know, we we think that it is really 620 00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:34,010 important for usc t to be more diversified on 621 00:37:34,010 --> 00:37:37,530 different blockchains Is important that although 622 00:37:37,530 --> 00:37:40,550 these blockchains will start to grow an ecosystem will 623 00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:43,930 keep transaction fees low And will keep the 624 00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:47,090 transaction speed high in order to fulfill the 625 00:37:47,090 --> 00:37:50,690 interest and the need of um of emerging markets 626 00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:56,450 populations Um tron transaction fees, um I have 627 00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:59,230 moved up Significantly though, right? So 628 00:37:59,230 --> 00:38:02,430 basically a tsc 20 transfer currently is around a 629 00:38:02,430 --> 00:38:05,750 dollar 50 So it's it should be impacting the 630 00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:09,430 people That are surfed best by by tether. Yes, 631 00:38:09,450 --> 00:38:11,730 exactly. And that's why we are seeing 632 00:38:12,590 --> 00:38:16,330 opportunities on Launching ladder chains recently we 633 00:38:16,330 --> 00:38:19,750 launched on selo Well, today's ago we launched on 634 00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:21,910 selo that has lower transaction fees is bm 635 00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:25,850 compatible And we are also looking at polygon and 636 00:38:25,850 --> 00:38:29,730 other uh layer twos. What I'm saying is that Now 637 00:38:29,730 --> 00:38:33,170 that hundreds well actually tens of thousands of 638 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:36,290 integrators like merchants payment solutions have 639 00:38:36,290 --> 00:38:40,590 adopted Tron is really hard for the layer two solutions 640 00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:42,490 only fear to compete, right? You 641 00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:48,770 They had four years of first mover advantage So 642 00:38:48,770 --> 00:38:52,510 you started you started kind of right focusing on 643 00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:56,550 this arbitrage use case and now There is you know kind 644 00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:59,410 of tether is like branched out and there's a lot of 645 00:38:59,410 --> 00:39:01,910 this, you know Payments use cases or people using it 646 00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:05,150 as a store of value. I heard in some Into you you 647 00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:10,730 talked about Tether as a sort of over collateralized 648 00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:14,950 bank account I'm curious if you think of like the long 649 00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:18,730 -term vision for a tether like where do you see it 650 00:39:18,730 --> 00:39:24,210 going? so tether evolved a lot, I 651 00:39:24,210 --> 00:39:31,170 mean We We were the black sheep of of crypto Maybe 652 00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:34,870 we still are and I'm not realizing it but Um, we 653 00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:37,830 were the the the black sheep of crypto for a long 654 00:39:37,830 --> 00:39:44,190 time. Um Is that we we thought 655 00:39:44,190 --> 00:39:47,470 that? Keeping your head down and you 656 00:39:47,470 --> 00:39:49,650 know not being you know not entering and not 657 00:39:49,650 --> 00:39:53,830 entering in public disputes and not being you know 658 00:39:54,410 --> 00:40:00,090 present on twitter and so on would Would work for 659 00:40:00,090 --> 00:40:04,510 us, um, you know, it's like okay If I work if I 660 00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:07,270 keep my head down and do a good job People will be 661 00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:10,170 okay with me will will be happy and we realize that 662 00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:12,990 we are good people And then you know that that 663 00:40:12,990 --> 00:40:15,670 didn't work well and you know, we started to 664 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:19,050 understand that people needed And no, I'm heavy 665 00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:22,290 quantities of transparency and I think you know, it's 666 00:40:22,290 --> 00:40:28,070 it is rightful to to us for that and um, so We 667 00:40:28,070 --> 00:40:31,490 changed I think heavily in the last years the amount 668 00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:34,710 of information that we publish The way we managed 669 00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:37,970 our services much more public We came up We were 670 00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:40,990 the first ones to to to come up with an attestation 671 00:40:40,990 --> 00:40:43,250 with a breakdown of the reserve showing how much we 672 00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:46,550 have in different things We were subject to many 673 00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:50,030 critics that we took well and we applied to the 674 00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:53,170 company so that we could Improve also our service, 675 00:40:53,330 --> 00:40:54,770 you know, I'm sure you remember the commercial 676 00:40:54,770 --> 00:40:57,990 paper part You know, although there were a lot 677 00:40:57,990 --> 00:41:00,530 of nonsense like we had ever grand day and you 678 00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:03,590 know all the chinese papers and so on that was Really 679 00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:08,150 stupid, but anyway Um, we we proved that we could 680 00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:11,090 convert everything or almost everything in us t bills 681 00:41:11,090 --> 00:41:14,710 as of today So the community was asking us to 682 00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:17,310 do changes and we always listen to the community. We 683 00:41:17,310 --> 00:41:21,030 made these changes Um as of today, I think we have 684 00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:27,670 well as the 31st of december 2023 we had 80 .3 685 00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:30,430 billion dollar c us treasury bills that would 686 00:41:30,430 --> 00:41:34,750 put us at the 20th as the 20th country in the world 687 00:41:34,750 --> 00:41:39,490 as own owners of us depth and um when it comes I 688 00:41:39,490 --> 00:41:44,730 think to the three months Treasury bills owners. We 689 00:41:44,730 --> 00:41:50,130 are the third one as in terms of holdings so Our 690 00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:52,730 the majority of our t bills are all short terms 691 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:57,910 like within 90 days and so Now nowadays in the last 692 00:41:57,910 --> 00:42:02,030 attestation we published um other numbers like we have 693 00:42:02,030 --> 00:42:07,810 we had 5 .2 billion On top of the 100 reserves that 694 00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:12,690 are covering all the issued usd t tokens so means 695 00:42:12,690 --> 00:42:16,950 meaning that we had Tatters making good money right in 696 00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:19,910 a quarter we made almost three billion dollars and 697 00:42:20,709 --> 00:42:23,110 We could have dividend at any other company any other 698 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:25,410 normal company imagine a bank that would make three 699 00:42:25,410 --> 00:42:27,730 billion dollars in profits Oh my god, they would 700 00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:30,710 Distribute these profits left and right to all the 701 00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:34,790 shareholders up to the last cent But no we tether we 702 00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:37,050 decided to keep the vast majority of these profits 703 00:42:37,050 --> 00:42:40,250 within the company up to 5 .2 billion as the last 704 00:42:40,250 --> 00:42:46,590 quarter so that Ren tether end up in being a 5 .2 705 00:42:46,590 --> 00:42:50,750 billion over collateralized so Of course banks are 706 00:42:50,750 --> 00:42:54,030 upset because you know banks are lending out 90 707 00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:58,070 percent of their portfolio and their balance sheet and 708 00:42:58,070 --> 00:43:00,510 tether instead is doing the opposite is actually 709 00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:03,090 accruing more money and keeping it to show that 710 00:43:03,850 --> 00:43:05,750 You can build something that's in safe. You 711 00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:10,310 can build a financial tool That is that is safe and 712 00:43:10,310 --> 00:43:13,730 doesn't need to lend out people's money and so 713 00:43:14,730 --> 00:43:19,290 that's That's what I what I like about tether right 714 00:43:19,290 --> 00:43:23,310 disability of of revolutionizing how you know 715 00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:28,510 Some certain things in finance are not so the 716 00:43:28,510 --> 00:43:33,810 yield on US Treasury belt has gone up enormously over 717 00:43:33,810 --> 00:43:36,430 the last year or so. Have you ever thought about kind 718 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:41,730 of making USCT in some form yield bearing and 719 00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:43,790 letting people who actually use it and hold it 720 00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:49,510 participate in that windfall so That is a really 721 00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:52,450 interesting one right so I get this a lot as well 722 00:43:52,450 --> 00:43:55,350 The reason why there are two different reasons why 723 00:43:55,350 --> 00:43:59,110 we cannot do it and doesn't make sense for us 724 00:43:59,110 --> 00:44:02,610 to do it Is the first one is that if you start 725 00:44:02,610 --> 00:44:07,030 giving out interest and share interest that becomes 726 00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:10,850 a financial product That then becomes a security. So 727 00:44:10,850 --> 00:44:14,450 that's something that is I don't think is is is a 728 00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:17,650 good approach So I think that many other products 729 00:44:17,650 --> 00:44:22,030 that are the stablecoins that are Trying to do a 730 00:44:22,030 --> 00:44:25,950 stablecoin that provides an interest are going to hand 731 00:44:25,950 --> 00:44:29,650 up in having some issues with the with the us 732 00:44:29,650 --> 00:44:33,650 regulators and other regulators, but also You 733 00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:37,970 know, I'm I consider myself a scientific person and 734 00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:43,630 when I create a product. I always think How for whom 735 00:44:44,370 --> 00:44:47,990 This product is created for and who should who is 736 00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:50,550 going to use this product? If 737 00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:53,130 you live in Argentina where the intraday volatility of 738 00:44:53,130 --> 00:44:57,230 the the Argentine basis is higher than 4 to 5 percent 739 00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:59,930 Does this really matter that at the end of the 740 00:44:59,930 --> 00:45:01,810 year you get 4 percent? And 741 00:45:01,810 --> 00:45:04,190 on the other side if we get that 4 percent we can 742 00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:08,350 create a really incredible stable product That can 743 00:45:08,350 --> 00:45:11,990 that is helping hundreds of millions of people So 744 00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:14,750 that's why I think, you know, if you are in the 745 00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:18,810 us You have already the best banking rails. You 746 00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:22,150 have already the us dollar So if you put money in a 747 00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:27,090 stablecoin you expect to receive An interest right 748 00:45:27,090 --> 00:45:29,130 because that's a constant of a saving account and a 749 00:45:29,130 --> 00:45:31,510 checking account on a saving account You want to 750 00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:35,750 have an interest but everywhere else outside the 751 00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:39,170 u .s For all the people outside the u .s The 752 00:45:39,170 --> 00:45:42,150 interest is in especially the ones living in the 753 00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:43,790 merchant markets and developing countries that 754 00:45:43,790 --> 00:45:48,610 are the actual users of a stablecoin Then that 4 755 00:45:48,610 --> 00:45:51,110 percent is not really meaningful because what they 756 00:45:51,110 --> 00:45:53,710 care about is to have something that protect 757 00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:59,170 themselves from a much worse situation So I I 758 00:45:59,170 --> 00:46:03,050 totally understand That reasoning of course one 759 00:46:03,050 --> 00:46:06,910 thing that did happen like a few years ago That's 760 00:46:06,910 --> 00:46:10,050 sort of like along these lines, right is that a lot 761 00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:14,110 of The usage of tether or of usd t was that people 762 00:46:14,110 --> 00:46:17,910 hold it on exchanges right the trade And and then I 763 00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:22,070 think you know finance created their b usd And 764 00:46:22,070 --> 00:46:24,210 you know, I think it was because they say like well 765 00:46:24,210 --> 00:46:26,830 all these people holding, you know usd t there and 766 00:46:26,830 --> 00:46:31,710 of course the sort of profits of that You're a 767 00:46:31,710 --> 00:46:34,150 crew of tether and they were like, okay Let's if 768 00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:36,390 we can swap this out with our own stablecoin right we 769 00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:39,630 can we can capture that So I'm curious. Do 770 00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:43,310 you think that might be a path for basically usd t 771 00:46:43,310 --> 00:46:46,830 would incentivize like some of these large platforms 772 00:46:46,830 --> 00:46:51,090 where massive amounts of Usd t get held or dc that 773 00:46:51,090 --> 00:46:55,470 as a sort of competitive threat Well, I know that 774 00:46:55,470 --> 00:46:58,750 some of our our biggest competitors are kind of 775 00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:02,610 doing that right so, you know, I know that From 776 00:47:02,610 --> 00:47:06,010 that some of our competitors are paying big 777 00:47:06,010 --> 00:47:10,030 institutions and exchanges to hold their stablecoin 778 00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:16,930 again To me and to you know, many legal teams that 779 00:47:16,930 --> 00:47:21,450 we told to That ends up in you are giving interest 780 00:47:21,450 --> 00:47:25,750 to someone else hence Can become or can be considered 781 00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:30,330 security. So The point is that tether 782 00:47:30,330 --> 00:47:34,350 today is 102 billion dollars in market cap Maybe 783 00:47:34,350 --> 00:47:36,570 we'll go down. Maybe someone else will create a 784 00:47:36,570 --> 00:47:40,610 better solution But we are not Look again, we are 785 00:47:40,610 --> 00:47:43,750 here for the tech We are keen for the innovation if 786 00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:45,870 we become the second biggest stablecoin or third 787 00:47:45,870 --> 00:47:48,930 biggest stablecoin as long as is safe As long as it 788 00:47:48,930 --> 00:47:51,670 follows our ethos. That's fine. We 789 00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:52,790 are happy with it, right? So 790 00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:57,270 we don't We don't have to be forever the first We 791 00:47:57,270 --> 00:48:01,650 need What we like is to leave a sign in terms of 792 00:48:01,650 --> 00:48:06,210 innovation a utility and how with our Technology 793 00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:09,150 with our passion we can we can change the world and 794 00:48:09,150 --> 00:48:11,230 if someone will create something better. That's 795 00:48:11,230 --> 00:48:16,030 fine but I believe that creating trying to You know 796 00:48:16,030 --> 00:48:22,430 be to compete and trying to Reduce the security also 797 00:48:22,430 --> 00:48:25,250 in this case from a the legal side, right? So 798 00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:28,350 if you if you start doing more and more things if 799 00:48:28,350 --> 00:48:32,090 you can if you keep adding flavors To the stablecoin 800 00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:34,510 and you start doing this and that because you are 801 00:48:34,510 --> 00:48:37,290 scared to become the second or the third or losing 802 00:48:37,290 --> 00:48:41,610 market cap Or losing market share look, I mean That's 803 00:48:41,610 --> 00:48:44,030 not us, right? So we we believe that the 804 00:48:44,030 --> 00:48:49,470 simpler it is The safer it is So if you start adding 805 00:48:49,470 --> 00:48:53,490 all these nuances Eventually you will fall in an issue 806 00:48:53,490 --> 00:48:56,730 and that could endanger the stablecoin So again tether 807 00:48:56,730 --> 00:49:00,510 has more than 300 million users across the world And 808 00:49:00,510 --> 00:49:02,870 so the only thing we do care about is that is safe 809 00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:10,310 Your main um usd stablecoin competitors usdc Um, how 810 00:49:10,310 --> 00:49:13,090 how do you see the differences between usc t 811 00:49:13,090 --> 00:49:17,830 and usdc? Well, they are focusing mostly 812 00:49:18,690 --> 00:49:21,050 And historically they have been focusing a lot on the 813 00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:27,870 us to me and and and europe now to me is um If 814 00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:29,930 you look at the us and if you look at europe or 815 00:49:29,930 --> 00:49:33,330 switzerland Everyone has two credit cards in or debit 816 00:49:33,330 --> 00:49:36,890 cards in their pocket have cash have two bank accounts 817 00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:40,910 You know, there is no need To me, I always described 818 00:49:40,910 --> 00:49:44,230 like trying to sell an ice cream to an skimmy's, 819 00:49:44,330 --> 00:49:47,410 right? So there is no point When you 820 00:49:47,410 --> 00:49:50,450 create a product again, you have to create it for for 821 00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:53,730 for the people that really need it You know, and 822 00:49:53,730 --> 00:49:57,010 those are the ones That don't have access to a 823 00:49:57,010 --> 00:49:59,730 bank account the there are billions of people in the 824 00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:01,690 world They don't have access to a bank account. 825 00:50:01,930 --> 00:50:03,910 There are billions of people that 826 00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:06,610 that are They're not bad people. They're 827 00:50:06,610 --> 00:50:09,630 really good people. They're nice people, but they are 828 00:50:10,350 --> 00:50:13,650 Not really interesting for the banking system Because 829 00:50:13,650 --> 00:50:16,250 for the banking system if you're not profitable enough 830 00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:19,670 as a human being They will you will not not be on 831 00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:22,610 board Right, if you'll not put in all your salary and 832 00:50:22,610 --> 00:50:24,550 if your salary is not enough is not big enough 833 00:50:24,550 --> 00:50:28,870 to justify You know, they're outdated You know 834 00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:33,530 financial infrastructure Then they will never accept you 835 00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:36,350 as a customer for all those people there is usd 836 00:50:36,350 --> 00:50:38,750 We were clear, you know, when we saw the pandemic 837 00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:41,470 and all these emerging markets issues happening We 838 00:50:41,470 --> 00:50:43,910 were clear that is our crowd. That 839 00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:47,290 is the people we want to serve We see our 840 00:50:47,290 --> 00:50:51,710 competitors always trying to Play the game of wall 841 00:50:51,710 --> 00:50:55,430 street and be want to be, you know The stable coin 842 00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:57,950 of institutions, but institutions have already 843 00:50:57,950 --> 00:51:01,230 the best banking rails So I think there is a big so 844 00:51:01,230 --> 00:51:04,390 the biggest difference in I think is strategy So we 845 00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:07,150 want to be the last the stable coin the dollar for 846 00:51:07,150 --> 00:51:10,870 the last mile, right for for the For the normal 847 00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:14,690 people, um, we think that bankers have already too 848 00:51:14,690 --> 00:51:20,250 much What are your thoughts on decentralized, um, 849 00:51:20,530 --> 00:51:24,490 stables? So basically Things like die 850 00:51:25,110 --> 00:51:27,510 Rye, I mean, so basically there's different flavors, 851 00:51:27,570 --> 00:51:29,030 right? Like fully collateralized 852 00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:32,450 collateralized with Acids that may be difficult to 853 00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:35,450 get a price feed for under collateralized agro -rhythmic 854 00:51:35,450 --> 00:51:39,070 and so on Do you see those gaining ground in any 855 00:51:39,070 --> 00:51:42,110 way because kind of the way that centralized stable 856 00:51:42,110 --> 00:51:45,550 coins work is we leverage heavily the existing 857 00:51:45,550 --> 00:51:49,350 financial infrastructure and kind of are Exposed to 858 00:51:49,350 --> 00:51:53,010 financial infrastructure risk that kind of pertains to 859 00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:56,950 the to the legacy system How do you see that play 860 00:51:56,950 --> 00:52:00,670 out in the future? Let's go with a little bit of 861 00:52:00,670 --> 00:52:02,990 history, right? So While we think about 862 00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:06,570 algorithmic stable coins, we think about terraluna We 863 00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:08,810 all know how it ended up, right? So 864 00:52:08,817 --> 00:52:15,050 I was quite vocal in the months before Saying to 865 00:52:15,050 --> 00:52:18,650 many people look terraluna is is gonna be gonna blow 866 00:52:18,650 --> 00:52:22,130 up And many answer me. Well, 867 00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:24,930 you are only saying that because terraluna is going 868 00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:30,190 to eat up all tether market share and um, but 869 00:52:30,190 --> 00:52:34,650 the the interesting fact is that It's easy to create a 870 00:52:34,650 --> 00:52:37,090 stable coin that is, you know, one million market 871 00:52:37,090 --> 00:52:40,590 cap to billion, three billion, five billion If 872 00:52:40,590 --> 00:52:44,010 you get to 10 billion or I think 17 to 18 billion 873 00:52:44,010 --> 00:52:49,910 was terraluna at the peak Every the liquid it has to 874 00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:52,030 be there, right? You have to be able to pay 875 00:52:52,030 --> 00:52:56,770 out immediately you have to be able to redeem in um 876 00:52:56,770 --> 00:53:01,730 in 2022 was april may when terraluna blew up There was 877 00:53:01,730 --> 00:53:04,450 you could see the difference between an 878 00:53:04,450 --> 00:53:09,170 algorithmic stable coin that was uh That was made 879 00:53:09,930 --> 00:53:13,830 through some, um, you know, we are the incentivization 880 00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:21,410 mechanisms and tether so terraluna Fell because they 881 00:53:21,410 --> 00:53:25,730 couldn't sustain haver dameships So everything 882 00:53:25,730 --> 00:53:29,710 started to blow up a reason after after terraluna 883 00:53:29,710 --> 00:53:33,530 blew up Uh publicly a group of hedge funds 884 00:53:34,009 --> 00:53:39,710 started to short USDT on the secondary markets So 885 00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:44,790 you could see And recently I think dcg came out or 886 00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:48,670 neither where some Some disclosures during a class 887 00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:53,230 action showing that also dcg shorted uh during those 888 00:53:53,230 --> 00:53:58,110 times USDT for 400 million dollars And uh, but there 889 00:53:58,110 --> 00:54:00,670 are other hedge funds like fear tree and and others 890 00:54:00,670 --> 00:54:03,390 they they they shorted billions of dollars in all 891 00:54:03,390 --> 00:54:07,030 together across all these groups In few days of USDT 892 00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:10,930 they kept the price of USDT below one dollar on 893 00:54:10,930 --> 00:54:13,970 the secondary markets. Why they did that? Of 894 00:54:13,970 --> 00:54:16,230 course, they did that because they wanted to 895 00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:20,290 cause a bank run That is what what basically happened 896 00:54:20,290 --> 00:54:23,630 on on terraluna So they wanted to cause a bank run 897 00:54:23,630 --> 00:54:26,490 where people you know, if you keep the price of USDT 898 00:54:26,490 --> 00:54:29,670 below the dollar Or a stable coin below the 899 00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:32,090 dollar or what happens is that? Market 900 00:54:32,090 --> 00:54:35,350 makers are coming in on the secondary markets and 901 00:54:35,350 --> 00:54:39,070 buying The stable coin for cheap Going to the stable 902 00:54:39,070 --> 00:54:41,910 connoisseur i .e in this case tether Redeeming for 903 00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:44,510 one dollar getting the dollar going moving the 904 00:54:44,510 --> 00:54:47,310 dollar back on the exchange buying cheap stable coin 905 00:54:47,310 --> 00:54:49,930 going to the stable connoisseur redeem it and 906 00:54:49,930 --> 00:54:53,110 so on and so forth that cause that is In the 907 00:54:53,110 --> 00:54:57,570 banking world the start of a bank run So what 908 00:54:57,570 --> 00:55:00,830 happened with tether in 2022 in may was that 909 00:55:00,830 --> 00:55:05,110 tether was able to pay Out in 48 hours seven billion 910 00:55:05,110 --> 00:55:08,650 dollars That was 10 percent of our reserves and in 20 911 00:55:08,650 --> 00:55:12,390 days we paid around 20 to 25 billion dollars of 912 00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:17,290 redemptions So that was 25 percent of our market cap 913 00:55:17,290 --> 00:55:20,330 So there are a few banks in in in the history that 914 00:55:20,330 --> 00:55:23,250 have been subject to a bank run Washington Mutual 915 00:55:23,250 --> 00:55:27,290 2008 10 percent redemption they went belly up Silicon 916 00:55:27,290 --> 00:55:31,470 Valley bank sinchure silver gate all these guys Didn't 917 00:55:31,470 --> 00:55:34,370 survive two bank runs You know, we are seeing 918 00:55:34,370 --> 00:55:38,250 recently also another bank in these days had issues 919 00:55:38,250 --> 00:55:44,370 so the the difference between A stable coin that 920 00:55:44,370 --> 00:55:49,130 is backed by liquid And real world assets and an 921 00:55:49,130 --> 00:55:52,090 algorithm is stable coin is enormous I don't think an 922 00:55:52,090 --> 00:55:54,210 algorithm is stable coin makes sense that war can 923 00:55:54,210 --> 00:55:56,970 grow Above a certain threshold because otherwise 924 00:55:56,970 --> 00:56:01,650 become to risky It's it becomes attackable by 925 00:56:01,650 --> 00:56:03,970 attackers. They tried it with us. They 926 00:56:03,970 --> 00:56:07,430 couldn't make it And they lost enormous amount of 927 00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:09,970 money because in we we were backed and we were 928 00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:14,970 solid they They had and when they tried to attack 929 00:56:14,970 --> 00:56:18,030 terraluna they succeeded it blew up really really fast 930 00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:21,330 So when it comes to the other times like 931 00:56:22,030 --> 00:56:24,410 Collateralize like die. I think they're really 932 00:56:24,410 --> 00:56:27,050 interesting concepts. The issue is how you grow the 933 00:56:27,050 --> 00:56:31,190 market cap We having extremely volatile assets in 934 00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:36,270 your portfolio like if you have If you have Bitcoin 935 00:56:36,270 --> 00:56:39,470 in theory as part of your collateral that becomes hard 936 00:56:39,470 --> 00:56:41,590 because we have seen how in the last four years 937 00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:45,610 Bitcoin in theory lost 80 % of their value, right? So 938 00:56:45,610 --> 00:56:49,550 it's really really tricky So that pushed die into my 939 00:56:49,550 --> 00:56:52,910 understanding to move towards tbls as well but 940 00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:56,770 you know, if you Are have if you start to using tbls 941 00:56:56,770 --> 00:56:58,550 as part of your collateral, you are no different than 942 00:56:58,550 --> 00:57:00,930 than tether or or the other You know centralized 943 00:57:00,930 --> 00:57:04,490 stable coins. So I think in a way die 944 00:57:04,490 --> 00:57:09,070 decided to Decided that the model of of tether was 945 00:57:09,070 --> 00:57:11,750 probably the right one and more more scalable one in 946 00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:15,490 the long term Yeah, they added usdc as collateral 947 00:57:15,490 --> 00:57:19,010 fast So usdc the tbls. I think this is something 948 00:57:19,010 --> 00:57:20,710 that's kind of slowly ramping up. But 949 00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:26,130 for for um sometime 70 % of die collateral was 950 00:57:26,130 --> 00:57:30,270 actually usdc And so it's just a proxy, right? So 951 00:57:30,270 --> 00:57:34,710 I think look the the point is And the question that 952 00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:38,550 people should ask themselves is Why you need a stable 953 00:57:38,550 --> 00:57:41,170 coin? so what you want to get from 954 00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:45,470 a stable coin because if you want to have an asset 955 00:57:46,430 --> 00:57:50,410 that is resistant to the wrath of god that no one 956 00:57:50,410 --> 00:57:52,710 can take away from you and so on that is bitcoin, 957 00:57:52,850 --> 00:57:54,650 right? So you have already something 958 00:57:54,650 --> 00:57:59,830 that is digital that that is Unconfiscatable that is 959 00:57:59,830 --> 00:58:05,130 built to survive to you know all the crazy monetary 960 00:58:05,130 --> 00:58:10,370 policies that that work is going is going into If you 961 00:58:10,370 --> 00:58:12,450 want a stable coin that quacks like a dollar 962 00:58:12,450 --> 00:58:17,350 probably, you know, you are still bound to the Fiat 963 00:58:17,350 --> 00:58:19,370 word. So you need for a specific 964 00:58:19,370 --> 00:58:24,630 use case a dollar So why you are forcing why you 965 00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:27,030 are why we are trying to push all these crazy 966 00:58:27,030 --> 00:58:31,850 mechanisms to try to to recreate a dollar And not 967 00:58:31,850 --> 00:58:33,950 using you know, if you want a dollar if you're 968 00:58:33,950 --> 00:58:35,890 trying to recreate the dollar It means you need 969 00:58:35,890 --> 00:58:38,670 the dollar for something and you need at some point 970 00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:40,970 to exchange that dollar for a dollar, right? For 971 00:58:40,970 --> 00:58:45,010 a real world dollar So if you are in that situation 972 00:58:45,569 --> 00:58:48,590 probably you just want something that has that is 973 00:58:49,250 --> 00:58:52,970 backed by a dollar or backed by The closest proxy 974 00:58:52,970 --> 00:58:57,710 to a dollar that is your stb So, you know you you 975 00:58:57,710 --> 00:59:01,730 you why putting Bitcoin in ethereum to recreate them 976 00:59:01,730 --> 00:59:04,510 to recreate the dollar I mean when eventually that 977 00:59:04,510 --> 00:59:06,570 dollar that you created through bitcoin in ethereum 978 00:59:06,570 --> 00:59:09,150 You have to sell it for a dollar that is backed by 979 00:59:09,150 --> 00:59:12,030 the real dollars or by the us economy that would be 980 00:59:12,030 --> 00:59:14,930 tether Right, you cannot cash out easily die. You 981 00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:16,990 have to sell it for us You cannot redeem it 982 00:59:16,990 --> 00:59:18,710 directly for us dollars. And 983 00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:21,590 so that's the point of the stable coin is to be able 984 00:59:21,590 --> 00:59:25,570 to To have a link to the physical world or to the 985 00:59:25,570 --> 00:59:30,130 fiat world So that's that's my small rant around the 986 00:59:30,130 --> 00:59:32,050 stable coins It's just it's not that we didn't think 987 00:59:32,050 --> 00:59:35,290 about how we can create something matter Well, we 988 00:59:35,290 --> 00:59:38,410 have some ideas that are quite interesting But the 989 00:59:38,410 --> 00:59:41,690 the reality is that nothing is really proven to to be 990 00:59:41,690 --> 00:59:44,710 able to become so big as usdT And maintain its 991 00:59:44,710 --> 00:59:48,710 stability no matter what that without using a heavy 992 00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:55,590 amount of physical assets So us dollars, I mean 993 00:59:55,590 --> 01:00:00,110 especially in this crowd they are heavily criticized 994 01:00:00,110 --> 01:00:03,270 and kind of They're often made out to be something 995 01:00:03,270 --> 01:00:07,250 that kind of could collapse any day now, right? So 996 01:00:07,250 --> 01:00:09,790 have you thought about adding an additional product 997 01:00:09,790 --> 01:00:13,630 that kind of doesn't just use us dollars or treasury 998 01:00:13,630 --> 01:00:17,950 bills as as the underlying Collateral about kind of 999 01:00:17,950 --> 01:00:21,070 having some sort of basket of currencies or kind of 1000 01:00:21,070 --> 01:00:23,950 like some sort of Special drawing rights and Yes, 1001 01:00:24,010 --> 01:00:27,050 basically adding like the swiss franc and the euro 1002 01:00:27,050 --> 01:00:31,370 and the yen and so on to the mix So this is a 1003 01:00:31,890 --> 01:00:34,450 Great question and there is a lot of unpack the the 1004 01:00:34,450 --> 01:00:37,750 thing is that So again, if you are scared about the 1005 01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:42,010 the us dollar Is probably you don't in there isn't 1006 01:00:42,010 --> 01:00:44,770 why you should be scared is that eventually like in 1007 01:00:44,770 --> 01:00:48,170 the weimar republic You might be able to buy a 1008 01:00:48,170 --> 01:00:51,550 loaf of bread with one billion dollars, right? but 1009 01:00:51,550 --> 01:00:56,090 I can tell you and if the dollar gets to that point 1010 01:00:56,090 --> 01:01:01,070 the euro is long gone And that's not about speak 1011 01:01:01,070 --> 01:01:03,830 about the japanese yen Well, the swiss frac is 1012 01:01:03,830 --> 01:01:05,990 probably the only thing that will remain and will 1013 01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:08,830 survive because swiss people understand finance better 1014 01:01:08,830 --> 01:01:12,910 than anyone else but There is no other basket the 1015 01:01:12,910 --> 01:01:17,210 only thing that would make sense is gold What about a 1016 01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:21,070 basket of kind of like stocks and you know in 1017 01:01:21,070 --> 01:01:24,310 principle, I mean you would ask yourself Where would 1018 01:01:24,310 --> 01:01:27,270 the value go? Right and basically physical 1019 01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:29,210 values would still be there. So 1020 01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:33,530 kind of wouldn't you want like shares in companies 1021 01:01:33,530 --> 01:01:39,170 and Actual physical goods like Goals of and I mean 1022 01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:42,190 though there are representations of those on 1023 01:01:42,190 --> 01:01:46,390 chain as well, right? Well, if the dollar goes bust 1024 01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:50,790 That is the entire Nasdaq and the New York store 1025 01:01:50,790 --> 01:01:53,490 exchange and all this the american markets are the 1026 01:01:53,490 --> 01:01:56,430 biggest ones So do you want ready to have some 1027 01:01:56,430 --> 01:01:58,370 some stocks in the u .s. Market? 1028 01:01:59,170 --> 01:02:03,190 I think if we are thinking and I like the you know 1029 01:02:03,190 --> 01:02:05,510 this thought right so about you know What will happen 1030 01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:07,530 if something happens to the u .s. Dollar? 1031 01:02:07,530 --> 01:02:11,250 But that means that the entire world economy is 1032 01:02:11,250 --> 01:02:13,890 going towards a reset and there are only two things 1033 01:02:13,890 --> 01:02:19,270 that will save you Bitcoin and gold so every Human 1034 01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:22,770 humanity go went through many resets and they will 1035 01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:26,970 They always were done through gold never through 1036 01:02:26,970 --> 01:02:30,550 fiat currency Now we have also bitcoin as as a great 1037 01:02:30,550 --> 01:02:34,610 alternative and gold asteroids, but here's the 1038 01:02:34,610 --> 01:02:40,090 thing right so USdT has to represent a dollar So with 1039 01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:42,430 one usdT you shouldn't be able to buy what more than 1040 01:02:42,430 --> 01:02:45,390 one dollar right so for us The usdT is a 1041 01:02:45,390 --> 01:02:47,710 representation of dollar that is representation of 1042 01:02:47,710 --> 01:02:51,170 the u .s economy If again with the dollar you can 1043 01:02:51,170 --> 01:02:53,770 buy if we you know you need one billion dollars to 1044 01:02:53,770 --> 01:02:57,090 buy a loaf of bread You will need one billion usdT 1045 01:02:57,090 --> 01:02:59,470 to buy it off of bread is not our business to make 1046 01:02:59,470 --> 01:03:03,210 the dollar Prettier and and more solid than the dollar 1047 01:03:03,210 --> 01:03:05,670 itself right so it's just a representation of dollar 1048 01:03:05,670 --> 01:03:08,050 if you really want something that is better 1049 01:03:08,670 --> 01:03:12,170 Then you should you might want to use bitcoin or 1050 01:03:12,170 --> 01:03:15,230 gold? Yeah, I mean I think a huge 1051 01:03:15,230 --> 01:03:19,570 part of the value Of you know something like usdT is 1052 01:03:19,570 --> 01:03:25,090 also well I mean let's say in crypto usdT or usdT is 1053 01:03:25,090 --> 01:03:27,050 used a lot right like let's say you invest in 1054 01:03:27,050 --> 01:03:28,970 some company or do something like that It's 1055 01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:31,710 mostly done with stablecoins and of course the nice 1056 01:03:31,710 --> 01:03:34,550 thing is you will have a contract and in a contract 1057 01:03:34,550 --> 01:03:38,330 it says oh $50 ,000 $70 ,000 something like that and 1058 01:03:38,330 --> 01:03:41,310 you can just send 70 ,000 usdT and there's no 1059 01:03:41,310 --> 01:03:44,090 complexity. There's no conversion Accounting is 1060 01:03:44,090 --> 01:03:47,310 simple So like I think even if you created some 1061 01:03:47,310 --> 01:03:49,770 kind of other stablecoin that you know, let's say 1062 01:03:49,770 --> 01:03:54,090 tracked inflation and It's it's from a practical 1063 01:03:54,090 --> 01:03:57,590 perspective It will be less useful right then something 1064 01:03:57,590 --> 01:04:00,750 that just mirrors the dollar I completely agree 1065 01:04:00,750 --> 01:04:03,310 the point the question that people should always ask 1066 01:04:03,310 --> 01:04:07,230 themselves is what i'm using this for so if 1067 01:04:07,230 --> 01:04:11,290 you're using it to just to Have a dollar then you 1068 01:04:11,290 --> 01:04:13,570 should go for the closest thing to a dollar that you 1069 01:04:13,570 --> 01:04:17,310 can find And that will quack as a dollar and also 1070 01:04:17,310 --> 01:04:20,590 in the accounting as you said So for the rest there 1071 01:04:20,590 --> 01:04:23,490 is plenty of other options that that we created in 1072 01:04:23,490 --> 01:04:26,470 the last many years Cool. Well, 1073 01:04:26,650 --> 01:04:29,330 let's let's maybe move on to the last topic because 1074 01:04:29,330 --> 01:04:31,290 I mean we've talked about bitfinex We've talked about 1075 01:04:31,290 --> 01:04:33,110 tether. So I mean you already are 1076 01:04:33,110 --> 01:04:36,070 doing a lot, but then I think you started another 1077 01:04:36,070 --> 01:04:41,610 thing Which is called hole punch Which is focused on 1078 01:04:41,610 --> 01:04:45,990 building P2P applications Can you talk a little bit 1079 01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:48,570 about what is hole punch and and you know the kind 1080 01:04:48,570 --> 01:04:50,850 of related things to hole punch and like What's the 1081 01:04:50,850 --> 01:04:56,670 vision behind that? Sure, so with tether we we came 1082 01:04:56,670 --> 01:05:02,310 from this enormous learning curve on How the world is 1083 01:05:02,310 --> 01:05:05,390 going bust and it's not not just us right so then 1084 01:05:05,390 --> 01:05:08,510 one of the main reasons of crypto is that we think at 1085 01:05:08,510 --> 01:05:12,870 least many of us think that um economy is the 1086 01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:16,390 real world economy is going towards a direction where 1087 01:05:17,290 --> 01:05:21,450 you know countries Are more and more at war among 1088 01:05:21,450 --> 01:05:25,170 themselves The economy is getting more unpredictable 1089 01:05:25,850 --> 01:05:30,370 and so we created A solution or to to that 1090 01:05:30,370 --> 01:05:33,110 that is you know bitcoin or blockchain based products 1091 01:05:33,110 --> 01:05:37,210 and so on but You know we have this concept in crypto 1092 01:05:37,210 --> 01:05:41,010 that is called individual sovereignty Where you should 1093 01:05:41,010 --> 01:05:44,070 be of course, we all live in a society But you 1094 01:05:44,070 --> 01:05:46,690 should have financial freedom So you need to you 1095 01:05:46,690 --> 01:05:50,110 you you want to have the direct to interact with 1096 01:05:50,110 --> 01:05:54,530 whoever you want, but the individual sovereignty that 1097 01:05:54,530 --> 01:05:56,830 Through financial freedom is incomplete. You 1098 01:05:56,830 --> 01:06:00,970 need also freedom of speech to achieve that because if 1099 01:06:00,970 --> 01:06:03,870 you have Individual sovereignty, but you cannot 1100 01:06:03,870 --> 01:06:06,630 say anything to anyone because otherwise you get 1101 01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:10,370 censored or or going jail That doesn't matter much 1102 01:06:10,370 --> 01:06:14,150 right um and vice versa If you have freedom of speech 1103 01:06:14,700 --> 01:06:17,850 But then you don't have financial freedom Whatever 1104 01:06:17,850 --> 01:06:20,890 you say can be used to seize your funds or or 1105 01:06:20,890 --> 01:06:23,230 make sure that you you are not really free to use 1106 01:06:23,230 --> 01:06:28,610 your own money so Five six years ago Myself and matias 1107 01:06:28,610 --> 01:06:32,750 boost the you know both developers both Really 1108 01:06:32,750 --> 01:06:35,850 enjoying the the concept peer -to -peer communications 1109 01:06:35,850 --> 01:06:39,070 as we are enjoying the concept of bitcoin as peer 1110 01:06:39,070 --> 01:06:43,210 -to -peer money um, we both came through from a 1111 01:06:43,210 --> 01:06:46,890 background of a file sharing system like bit 1112 01:06:46,890 --> 01:06:50,930 torrent, you know and all the predecessors And we 1113 01:06:50,930 --> 01:06:53,310 know there is an interesting aspect of file 1114 01:06:53,310 --> 01:06:56,410 sharing systems that I think is really was 1115 01:06:57,210 --> 01:07:02,650 comparable and is comparable to um blockchain and and 1116 01:07:02,650 --> 01:07:07,070 money systems So you might be familiar with nubster 1117 01:07:07,070 --> 01:07:09,790 the first file sharing system, you know went bust 1118 01:07:09,790 --> 01:07:13,210 closed and all through with different iterations uh 1119 01:07:13,210 --> 01:07:16,010 developers try to create different solutions to make 1120 01:07:16,010 --> 01:07:20,510 file sharing more decentralized exactly as We 1121 01:07:20,510 --> 01:07:24,770 are we try to do with money so Different attempts 1122 01:07:24,770 --> 01:07:28,350 right from um, you had line wire you have a kazam 1123 01:07:28,770 --> 01:07:32,210 You have a donkey you have a mule and then you 1124 01:07:32,210 --> 01:07:34,870 finally you have bit torrent The difference 1125 01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:39,130 across all these different Approaches is that all the 1126 01:07:39,130 --> 01:07:42,170 different approaches before bit torrent they had a 1127 01:07:42,170 --> 01:07:46,730 centralization point they had You know if you were 1128 01:07:46,730 --> 01:07:50,030 using kazam or or line wire you wanted to look 1129 01:07:50,030 --> 01:07:54,170 for a movie you had to connect to a centralized 1130 01:07:54,170 --> 01:07:57,470 index like or certain servers that had all the 1131 01:07:57,470 --> 01:07:59,670 list of all the files so you can find download the 1132 01:07:59,670 --> 01:08:01,930 files, right? And all these centralized 1133 01:08:01,930 --> 01:08:04,010 servers were shut down, right? So 1134 01:08:04,010 --> 01:08:07,950 then people Jumped to a next version trying to 1135 01:08:07,950 --> 01:08:11,030 decentralize file sharing a bit more And son is for 1136 01:08:11,030 --> 01:08:13,010 sorry. So that was the history of 1137 01:08:13,010 --> 01:08:15,750 file sharing arrived to the point where with bit 1138 01:08:15,750 --> 01:08:18,310 torrent Everything was really decentralized from 1139 01:08:18,310 --> 01:08:20,710 the indexes. So the list of all the files 1140 01:08:21,230 --> 01:08:23,010 Where they centralized through a system called 1141 01:08:23,010 --> 01:08:28,010 distributed hash table dht You know the file sharing 1142 01:08:28,010 --> 01:08:30,310 itself the the exchange of the files was completed 1143 01:08:30,310 --> 01:08:34,790 peer to peer And then son is for now with um, but 1144 01:08:34,790 --> 01:08:38,609 yes myself Really were fun of bit torrent and so we 1145 01:08:38,609 --> 01:08:41,529 thought what if We took the very same technology 1146 01:08:41,529 --> 01:08:45,810 around bit torrent But we improve it we make it 1147 01:08:45,810 --> 01:08:48,370 available for not only for file sharing but for real 1148 01:08:48,370 --> 01:08:51,950 real time streams In the world almost everything is 1149 01:08:51,950 --> 01:08:55,050 a real time stream this Chat on or ever sorry the 1150 01:08:55,050 --> 01:08:56,810 riverside is a real time stream, right? So 1151 01:08:56,810 --> 01:09:00,290 we have how tens of streams audio video when we 1152 01:09:00,290 --> 01:09:02,970 browse is uh, the internet is a real time stream And 1153 01:09:02,970 --> 01:09:06,649 so we thought if we can take those protocols and we 1154 01:09:06,649 --> 01:09:08,830 can create a new set of protocols that are free 1155 01:09:09,350 --> 01:09:12,010 That are open source that are private. So 1156 01:09:12,010 --> 01:09:14,689 we took also all the learnings from blockchain to 1157 01:09:14,689 --> 01:09:18,170 create a Identity to use that encryption that we 1158 01:09:18,170 --> 01:09:21,830 learned from blockchain to make it more Secure than 1159 01:09:21,830 --> 01:09:24,510 bit torrent was and and is right? So 1160 01:09:24,510 --> 01:09:28,490 we we spend five years to recreate the basic protocol 1161 01:09:28,490 --> 01:09:34,450 technology to create a better layer for internet I 1162 01:09:34,450 --> 01:09:37,930 I think personally, you know when you know the I'm 1163 01:09:37,930 --> 01:09:41,229 a technologist and I think that one something that 1164 01:09:41,229 --> 01:09:45,810 really annoys me is the fact that Internet change 1165 01:09:45,810 --> 01:09:48,710 from the beginning from the real purpose it was born 1166 01:09:48,710 --> 01:09:51,930 for when the internet was born was Born to allow 1167 01:09:51,930 --> 01:09:53,670 people to talk to each other and share information 1168 01:09:53,670 --> 01:09:57,170 to each other with each other Every computer had an 1169 01:09:57,170 --> 01:10:00,710 IP address and still today has an IP address So that 1170 01:10:00,710 --> 01:10:03,590 every computer could directly interact with the 1171 01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:06,610 others but more and more after the year 2000 1172 01:10:07,370 --> 01:10:12,090 centralized System were born by can so google of course 1173 01:10:12,090 --> 01:10:16,810 then email Supercentralize and then you know, what's 1174 01:10:16,810 --> 01:10:19,150 up telegram all all these communication systems are 1175 01:10:19,150 --> 01:10:21,990 incredibly centralized They are going actually against 1176 01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:24,810 and all the cloud providers are incredibly centralized 1177 01:10:24,810 --> 01:10:28,790 now 70 of the entire traffic intern Is provided 1178 01:10:28,790 --> 01:10:33,690 by service that are running on the top three? cloud 1179 01:10:33,690 --> 01:10:38,650 providers aws Microsoft google So is that really 1180 01:10:39,589 --> 01:10:44,390 The future that we want So what happens is and now we 1181 01:10:44,390 --> 01:10:47,910 go back to the beginning of this this this chart We 1182 01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:50,870 we we are building internet for the best case scenario 1183 01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:54,270 where everyone is friendly to each other What if 1184 01:10:54,270 --> 01:10:56,370 tomorrow and you should we should learn from history? 1185 01:10:56,590 --> 01:10:58,589 What if tomorrow? Italian 1186 01:10:58,589 --> 01:11:01,710 friends will not be friends with each other or I don't 1187 01:11:01,710 --> 01:11:05,790 know Germany and Spain or I don't know the US and 1188 01:11:05,790 --> 01:11:10,690 another country so what if and we we built and you 1189 01:11:10,690 --> 01:11:13,890 know the reality is that All these solutions like 1190 01:11:13,890 --> 01:11:17,330 whatsapp are built by specific company single 1191 01:11:17,330 --> 01:11:20,190 company And he's using data centers in specific 1192 01:11:20,190 --> 01:11:24,270 locations in specific geographic locations, so You 1193 01:11:24,270 --> 01:11:28,750 might see a future where data will be held hostage 1194 01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:32,670 and use against other countries If you if you 1195 01:11:32,670 --> 01:11:36,670 live in europe use whatsapp if you live in Rome You 1196 01:11:36,670 --> 01:11:40,710 know if use whatsapp Every single time you send a 1197 01:11:40,710 --> 01:11:44,610 small message If we go to frown fort and go back to 1198 01:11:44,610 --> 01:11:47,170 Rome, right? So 90 percent of the people 1199 01:11:47,170 --> 01:11:49,470 for 90 percent of their time are talking to people 1200 01:11:49,470 --> 01:11:51,770 that are within You know two kilometers from where 1201 01:11:51,770 --> 01:11:56,670 they live yet every time we chat Data travels 1202 01:11:56,670 --> 01:12:00,350 thousands and thousands of miles just to go back You 1203 01:12:00,350 --> 01:12:03,070 know to our neighbor or to be to go back to be two 1204 01:12:03,070 --> 01:12:05,890 kilometers for months Is that intelligent? Not 1205 01:12:05,890 --> 01:12:09,710 of course imagine how much Governments are spending in 1206 01:12:09,710 --> 01:12:12,510 internet infrastructure just to create beefier lines 1207 01:12:12,510 --> 01:12:16,910 bigger internet lines for People that are talking for 1208 01:12:16,910 --> 01:12:18,990 most of the time with their neighbors or with 1209 01:12:18,990 --> 01:12:20,550 their families that are living in the same area 1210 01:12:21,169 --> 01:12:23,470 That is really utterly stupid. Sorry 1211 01:12:23,470 --> 01:12:28,210 to say that but it is And so this is done because 1212 01:12:28,620 --> 01:12:31,850 centralized companies and big tech providers are Need 1213 01:12:31,850 --> 01:12:35,090 that amount of information every day to milk that 1214 01:12:35,090 --> 01:12:39,250 information To make money to sustain additional growth 1215 01:12:39,250 --> 01:12:43,070 new data centers is like You know a circle that 1216 01:12:43,070 --> 01:12:46,950 that goes around and keep growing is like And it's 1217 01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:50,630 feeding itself without us sharing more information 1218 01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:52,590 more photos. They be you know, they they 1219 01:12:52,590 --> 01:12:55,790 will never survive The the cost of maintaining their 1220 01:12:55,790 --> 01:13:00,330 infrastructure will crush them And so this long 1221 01:13:00,330 --> 01:13:02,950 story to say that we there isn't why we created whole 1222 01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:06,670 punching kit Is to showcase that you know this this 1223 01:13:06,670 --> 01:13:08,870 interview could have been done through kit completely 1224 01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:12,310 bearded pier without any central server If a whole 1225 01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:14,290 punch the company that is building kit would die 1226 01:13:14,290 --> 01:13:18,230 tomorrow kit will keep working imagine If you are 1227 01:13:18,230 --> 01:13:21,670 in a country, right? So kit is serverless Allows 1228 01:13:21,670 --> 01:13:24,650 you to do a chat. We have we created a bitcoin 1229 01:13:24,650 --> 01:13:29,010 chat On kit with there are 1 .5 thousand people today. 1230 01:13:29,210 --> 01:13:31,210 There is no central server. They 1231 01:13:31,210 --> 01:13:32,270 are talking real time. They're 1232 01:13:32,270 --> 01:13:37,170 sharing files You can share any Size of file you want 1233 01:13:37,170 --> 01:13:38,930 because there is no limit. It's 1234 01:13:38,930 --> 01:13:40,750 just your bandwidth. You are interacting with each 1235 01:13:40,750 --> 01:13:44,670 other You don't need if you share a file On zoom 1236 01:13:44,670 --> 01:13:46,670 you are limited to one other megabyte because 1237 01:13:46,670 --> 01:13:49,830 otherwise if everyone was sharing two big files Then 1238 01:13:49,830 --> 01:13:53,290 you would crush You know telegram or zoom or 1239 01:13:53,290 --> 01:13:56,170 whatever, right? But When peer -to -peer you 1240 01:13:56,170 --> 01:13:58,470 don't have those limitations So what we wanted to 1241 01:13:58,470 --> 01:14:01,430 create with kit on whole punch is we want to Wanted 1242 01:14:01,430 --> 01:14:03,990 to prove to the world and to all the developers that 1243 01:14:03,990 --> 01:14:06,370 you can build peer -to -peer applications with a great 1244 01:14:06,370 --> 01:14:09,070 user experience Without having to have central 1245 01:14:09,070 --> 01:14:13,830 servers And so kit now is being used by my many 1246 01:14:13,830 --> 01:14:17,370 people Have much better quality video quality much 1247 01:14:17,370 --> 01:14:20,370 better out of quality just because if you if you are 1248 01:14:20,370 --> 01:14:24,190 talking to a person With leaving the same area It 1249 01:14:24,190 --> 01:14:26,390 feels like you have that person in front of you 1250 01:14:27,250 --> 01:14:30,650 Because the latency is the smallest it can ever be 1251 01:14:30,650 --> 01:14:34,510 Because the message is the data packets will find the 1252 01:14:34,510 --> 01:14:37,330 shortest path between you and that person and that 1253 01:14:37,330 --> 01:14:41,630 between of course you the two devices Is not magic 1254 01:14:41,630 --> 01:14:44,970 if intern was built in that way, but there was 1255 01:14:44,970 --> 01:14:49,510 never an incentive by anyone To build it to use 1256 01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:54,550 it in that way because The companies that had the most 1257 01:14:54,550 --> 01:14:57,950 money had the incentive to make it centralized and all 1258 01:14:57,950 --> 01:15:01,630 the rest all the nerds let's say like us They 1259 01:15:01,630 --> 01:15:05,290 never had the money to build, you know highly 1260 01:15:06,070 --> 01:15:10,890 successful applications To prove that internet can be 1261 01:15:10,890 --> 01:15:14,790 become Server -free in a way for or at least most 1262 01:15:14,790 --> 01:15:17,910 of it can become server -free And so that long 1263 01:15:17,910 --> 01:15:22,150 story short That are found recently as we chatted a 1264 01:15:22,150 --> 01:15:26,550 little bit about it With an important profitability 1265 01:15:27,850 --> 01:15:31,770 So since we are as I said, we are in for the 1266 01:15:31,770 --> 01:15:35,190 technology. We wanted to create the freest 1267 01:15:35,190 --> 01:15:40,870 free as in freedom a chat solution That is unstoppable 1268 01:15:40,870 --> 01:15:43,830 that is private and doesn't need doesn't need any 1269 01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:47,830 central server Super cool. So 1270 01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:51,330 I get key this kind of like basically decentralized 1271 01:15:51,330 --> 01:15:54,050 peer -to -peer, you know alternative to like sort of 1272 01:15:54,050 --> 01:15:58,550 whatsapp and telegram Do you see the same protocol? 1273 01:15:59,630 --> 01:16:03,270 also as a foundation for You 1274 01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:07,670 know very different types of applications Sure you 1275 01:16:07,670 --> 01:16:11,230 can on the same protocols you can build peer -to -peer 1276 01:16:11,230 --> 01:16:14,910 uber One of the scariest things is like imagine that 1277 01:16:14,910 --> 01:16:18,870 you know, this baby comes where Uh, that you you 1278 01:16:18,870 --> 01:16:21,310 monitor your children, you know, they are all the 1279 01:16:21,310 --> 01:16:23,730 data passed through a central server that you 1280 01:16:23,730 --> 01:16:26,710 don't know How scary is that? You 1281 01:16:26,710 --> 01:16:28,450 you should be able to connect directly from your 1282 01:16:28,450 --> 01:16:31,370 phone to your home device without crazy configure 1283 01:16:31,370 --> 01:16:34,870 needing crazy configurations All that is possible 1284 01:16:35,830 --> 01:16:40,350 through hole punch and You can build, you know peer 1285 01:16:40,350 --> 01:16:43,430 -to -peer mapping you can whatever you think is built 1286 01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:46,710 today You can build a hole punch. You 1287 01:16:46,710 --> 01:16:50,270 don't know how many when I talk to other developers. I 1288 01:16:50,270 --> 01:16:53,930 I tell them I showcase Hole punch you can I 1289 01:16:53,930 --> 01:16:57,390 showcase how you can build You know interaction between 1290 01:16:57,390 --> 01:17:00,530 two devices without any middle server providing, you 1291 01:17:00,530 --> 01:17:02,450 know one device provides some services to another 1292 01:17:02,450 --> 01:17:07,150 device Without both phones, maybe without any central 1293 01:17:07,150 --> 01:17:12,350 server And even developers are mind blown and that 1294 01:17:12,350 --> 01:17:14,870 tells a lot about our education So as developers 1295 01:17:14,870 --> 01:17:18,290 when we go to the reverse in university we are taught 1296 01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:22,750 that The client server model is the only moderate 1297 01:17:22,750 --> 01:17:25,350 model existing. You always need a server for 1298 01:17:25,350 --> 01:17:28,670 for many clients That's not true And we wanted to 1299 01:17:28,670 --> 01:17:30,710 prove it and we are going to invest a lot of money 1300 01:17:30,710 --> 01:17:33,330 to make sure that education will pick up this new 1301 01:17:33,330 --> 01:17:37,250 pattern Because we want an horde of developers to 1302 01:17:37,250 --> 01:17:40,010 build peer -to -peer applications that desentalize 1303 01:17:40,010 --> 01:17:46,150 applications to reduce the dominance of the any tari 1304 01:17:46,150 --> 01:17:50,810 big tech companies I I hear on of that and I'm a 1305 01:17:50,810 --> 01:17:52,950 big fan. I will definitely check out 1306 01:17:52,950 --> 01:17:56,130 hole punch The the one thing that kind of always 1307 01:17:56,130 --> 01:17:59,690 got me about these peer -to -peer platforms like 1308 01:18:00,490 --> 01:18:03,570 BitTorrent was that that there was an incentive 1309 01:18:03,570 --> 01:18:07,990 layer missing so kind of people Basically was very 1310 01:18:07,990 --> 01:18:11,750 sensitive to kind of people who would Explore who would 1311 01:18:11,750 --> 01:18:14,070 exploit it by kind of downloading and not seeding 1312 01:18:14,070 --> 01:18:17,130 So in principle kind of like on any crypto 1313 01:18:17,130 --> 01:18:20,650 infrastructure. You can kind of build in An 1314 01:18:20,650 --> 01:18:23,650 incentive layer said happening with hole punch 1315 01:18:23,650 --> 01:18:26,790 as well No, not really. So, 1316 01:18:26,970 --> 01:18:29,870 I mean hole punch is space protocols It doesn't have a 1317 01:18:29,870 --> 01:18:32,310 token will never have a token because I believe 1318 01:18:32,310 --> 01:18:35,370 that is a simple protocol that can well It's quite 1319 01:18:35,370 --> 01:18:37,510 complex, but it's a protocol that can be taken 1320 01:18:37,510 --> 01:18:39,570 by everyone and you can build whatever you want on 1321 01:18:39,570 --> 01:18:45,270 it now I agree that there were with BitTorrent Most 1322 01:18:45,270 --> 01:18:47,510 of the people wanted only to download but never give 1323 01:18:47,510 --> 01:18:51,570 up their upload bandwidth This is completely true, 1324 01:18:51,710 --> 01:18:54,250 but let's think about the other side, right? If 1325 01:18:54,250 --> 01:18:57,650 you are building like a peer -to -peer chat And you 1326 01:18:57,650 --> 01:19:00,090 you want to use a chart your incentive is to talk 1327 01:19:00,090 --> 01:19:04,270 to people So there is no actual cost for you. It's 1328 01:19:04,270 --> 01:19:06,430 not that you are running and know that that allow 1329 01:19:06,430 --> 01:19:12,130 people to run their traffic through you so the 1330 01:19:12,130 --> 01:19:15,670 difference between a hole punch and a blockchain is 1331 01:19:15,670 --> 01:19:17,490 that in a blockchain you have a global share state 1332 01:19:17,490 --> 01:19:20,250 So if you run node, you will see all the traffic 1333 01:19:20,250 --> 01:19:23,090 you will see, you know the mempool data and so on 1334 01:19:23,090 --> 01:19:27,090 With the hole punch You only choose to to talk and 1335 01:19:27,090 --> 01:19:29,550 to connect to the people you want to because you 1336 01:19:29,550 --> 01:19:32,570 are creating a network with them So hole punch is not 1337 01:19:32,570 --> 01:19:36,110 a huge big network But is a protocol to create your 1338 01:19:36,110 --> 01:19:38,790 own small network with only the people you want to 1339 01:19:38,790 --> 01:19:40,830 talk to because you are interacting with them 1340 01:19:40,830 --> 01:19:44,230 Without any central server That's the only way to 1341 01:19:44,230 --> 01:19:47,670 make something scalable blockchains are Need to use 1342 01:19:47,670 --> 01:19:49,610 a global share state because you need to make 1343 01:19:49,610 --> 01:19:53,170 sure that no one is double spending right But you 1344 01:19:53,170 --> 01:19:56,110 don't need that you don't need in in if you are 1345 01:19:56,110 --> 01:19:58,590 creating a communication system You don't want to 1346 01:19:58,590 --> 01:20:01,410 receive messages from someone from the other side 1347 01:20:01,410 --> 01:20:04,070 of the world to route them somewhere else, right? So 1348 01:20:04,070 --> 01:20:06,090 it doesn't matter. You shouldn't be a server 1349 01:20:06,090 --> 01:20:10,570 yourself There is now this other program project called 1350 01:20:10,570 --> 01:20:14,170 noster They use, you know, they use relays centralized 1351 01:20:14,170 --> 01:20:15,970 relays. I always make the comparison 1352 01:20:15,970 --> 01:20:20,850 between Noster and then and kit as in with noster you 1353 01:20:20,850 --> 01:20:23,050 have relays And so you need to provide incentives 1354 01:20:23,050 --> 01:20:24,770 to people to run a relays. Otherwise 1355 01:20:24,770 --> 01:20:27,410 nothing will work Well with the hole punch, you don't 1356 01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:30,170 need relays So hence you have a simpler more 1357 01:20:30,170 --> 01:20:32,870 simplified network And you don't have to have 1358 01:20:32,870 --> 01:20:34,770 incentives because the incentive of people is 1359 01:20:34,770 --> 01:20:37,610 already talking to each other For example, now you 1360 01:20:37,610 --> 01:20:41,830 are in Imagine that you were in ua in dubai you 1361 01:20:41,830 --> 01:20:44,870 cannot use telegram or whatsapp to call your 1362 01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:48,350 friends and family Because you know the telegram 1363 01:20:48,350 --> 01:20:50,890 whatsapp are blocked you can use kit to talk to 1364 01:20:50,890 --> 01:20:54,190 anyone and from from from there and to there because 1365 01:20:54,190 --> 01:20:57,710 that's um Because the beautiful kit is because 1366 01:20:57,710 --> 01:21:00,730 it's peer -to -peer in order to block pe key you will 1367 01:21:00,730 --> 01:21:03,750 need to block the entire internet Because it's not 1368 01:21:03,750 --> 01:21:06,910 predictable where you connect to Super 1369 01:21:06,910 --> 01:21:09,030 interesting. So is is the underlying 1370 01:21:09,030 --> 01:21:12,150 technologies at some sort of whisper network or how 1371 01:21:12,150 --> 01:21:15,050 does it work? It's used the same concept of 1372 01:21:15,050 --> 01:21:18,390 bit torrent in order to Find each other we use the 1373 01:21:18,390 --> 01:21:20,650 same concept of bit torrent called dhd the distributed 1374 01:21:20,650 --> 01:21:26,390 hash table so that um The distributed hash table is 1375 01:21:26,390 --> 01:21:29,590 uh In in bit torrent arrived to 10 million nodes 1376 01:21:29,590 --> 01:21:31,930 in size at the peak, right? So 1377 01:21:31,930 --> 01:21:33,710 you have all these 10 million nodes that are 1378 01:21:33,710 --> 01:21:37,390 acting as um, not connection points, but are 1379 01:21:38,769 --> 01:21:42,450 Temporary database temporary databases Is basically they 1380 01:21:42,450 --> 01:21:45,010 are key value stores that are storing part of the 1381 01:21:45,010 --> 01:21:50,650 global index in a really resilient way so if If you 1382 01:21:50,650 --> 01:21:52,730 shut down a part of the network even 1 million 1383 01:21:52,730 --> 01:21:55,810 nodes the network will keep surviving and will adapt to 1384 01:21:55,810 --> 01:21:59,410 the new set of nodes So is really the most 1385 01:21:59,410 --> 01:22:04,570 sophisticated resilient Uh distributed database ever 1386 01:22:04,570 --> 01:22:08,250 created and we used it in order to allow people to 1387 01:22:08,250 --> 01:22:12,490 find each other through the four key Because if we 1388 01:22:12,490 --> 01:22:15,130 added a centralized index to key to that would be 1389 01:22:15,130 --> 01:22:19,190 centralized the The point was centralization is that 1390 01:22:19,190 --> 01:22:22,310 you cannot just add just a little bit of centralization 1391 01:22:23,030 --> 01:22:24,670 Right. So either you are centralized 1392 01:22:24,670 --> 01:22:26,610 or not. There is no there's no in 1393 01:22:26,610 --> 01:22:28,430 between because the moment you are a bit centralized 1394 01:22:28,430 --> 01:22:31,550 that you are centralized I'm curious. So 1395 01:22:31,558 --> 01:22:34,090 one of the things one of the projects I've been 1396 01:22:34,090 --> 01:22:36,670 pretty deeply involved in for quite a while is uh, 1397 01:22:36,710 --> 01:22:39,790 it's been called orbit which uh, sort of you 1398 01:22:39,790 --> 01:22:43,850 know, in visions basically a different architecture for 1399 01:22:43,850 --> 01:22:47,190 like computing and an alternative to the internet 1400 01:22:47,190 --> 01:22:50,310 where basically All of the computers work in a kind 1401 01:22:50,310 --> 01:22:52,710 of p2p array where you know applications run 1402 01:22:52,710 --> 01:22:55,810 locally Who have you looked at orbit? Do 1403 01:22:55,810 --> 01:22:58,750 you have any thoughts on the sort of tradeoffs 1404 01:22:58,750 --> 01:23:05,190 between the whole punch approach versus that So I 1405 01:23:05,190 --> 01:23:09,270 really like orbit. I mean I I play with it. I 1406 01:23:09,270 --> 01:23:14,490 think in 2017 2018 I I don't remember when but I 1407 01:23:14,490 --> 01:23:18,170 think is a really Not all project in a sense of all 1408 01:23:18,170 --> 01:23:22,350 but these around since a long time and um, the 1409 01:23:22,350 --> 01:23:26,710 concept is great I think and the way it is designed 1410 01:23:26,710 --> 01:23:30,350 is also I really love it I think a whole bunch is 1411 01:23:30,350 --> 01:23:32,690 creating protocols for the real world, right doesn't 1412 01:23:33,370 --> 01:23:35,570 Doesn't trying to change the world completely 1413 01:23:35,570 --> 01:23:39,730 starting from scratch We already have internet We 1414 01:23:39,730 --> 01:23:44,230 have we have immediate needs that are creating A 1415 01:23:44,230 --> 01:23:47,030 layer on top of internet that is secure that is uh 1416 01:23:47,030 --> 01:23:50,290 that gives sovereignty to people And we are doing in 1417 01:23:50,290 --> 01:23:52,750 the most simple way in the most modular way because 1418 01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:56,410 with with orbit you had it was kind of The way I 1419 01:23:56,410 --> 01:23:59,590 felt it is it's that is a monolithic approach You have 1420 01:23:59,590 --> 01:24:01,570 to take it all and everything should run on 1421 01:24:01,570 --> 01:24:04,150 orbit. Otherwise it would you know What 1422 01:24:04,150 --> 01:24:07,370 wouldn't work? But with whole punch is We 1423 01:24:07,370 --> 01:24:12,210 have more than 100 GitHub projects and libraries you 1424 01:24:12,210 --> 01:24:16,450 can take bitten pieces And use it and craft it for 1425 01:24:16,450 --> 01:24:18,990 and integrating in your real application your 1426 01:24:18,990 --> 01:24:23,230 existing application already Right, so we are taking a 1427 01:24:23,230 --> 01:24:26,210 different approach in order to change the internet That 1428 01:24:26,210 --> 01:24:28,910 is giving you the tools to do small steps toward 1429 01:24:28,910 --> 01:24:31,730 decentralization rather than forcing everyone in a new 1430 01:24:32,250 --> 01:24:35,730 completely different ecosystem Yeah, no, 1431 01:24:35,790 --> 01:24:38,030 absolutely. I absolutely I think that's a 1432 01:24:38,030 --> 01:24:43,150 fair description Uh in terms of the differences Do 1433 01:24:43,150 --> 01:24:47,170 you see kids Becoming some kind of business down the 1434 01:24:47,170 --> 01:24:50,650 line or is it just a sort of public service that you 1435 01:24:50,650 --> 01:24:57,270 guys want to develop? I think it will remain public 1436 01:24:57,270 --> 01:25:00,870 service, I mean The point of kit is not making 1437 01:25:00,870 --> 01:25:03,790 money, you know, there is this uh, sorry making many 1438 01:25:03,790 --> 01:25:07,210 references to to memes but Well, you know the from 1439 01:25:07,210 --> 01:25:11,570 batman joker is not that he said it's not about um 1440 01:25:12,090 --> 01:25:17,610 The money is about sending message and For us kit is 1441 01:25:17,610 --> 01:25:19,430 that right? So we make good money with 1442 01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:22,370 tether We's not that we have to make money every 1443 01:25:22,370 --> 01:25:25,670 single time we do something Sometimes it's important to 1444 01:25:25,670 --> 01:25:28,330 send a message And there is a pun intended because 1445 01:25:28,330 --> 01:25:32,550 kit sends messages And I think this is a fantastic 1446 01:25:32,550 --> 01:25:36,950 place to end because it is it is such an iconic You 1447 01:25:36,950 --> 01:25:41,010 know a message to go out on I will definitely 1448 01:25:41,010 --> 01:25:44,750 explore kit and hold punch more I think uh, the 1449 01:25:44,750 --> 01:25:47,450 entire interview was super fascinating But somehow the 1450 01:25:47,450 --> 01:25:50,010 whole punch part got me most as kind of like 1451 01:25:50,010 --> 01:25:52,910 appear to appear in decentralization maxi If 1452 01:25:52,910 --> 01:25:55,410 people kind of want to learn more about hold punch 1453 01:25:55,930 --> 01:25:58,730 Or indeed bin finnex or tether where can they go 1454 01:25:58,730 --> 01:26:02,589 to where can we send them? so 1455 01:26:02,589 --> 01:26:07,650 um On x there is um until we replace x with something 1456 01:26:07,650 --> 01:26:11,610 build on hold punch So that's um disclaimer So you 1457 01:26:11,610 --> 01:26:15,930 could go on um at tether underscore to or at beat 1458 01:26:15,930 --> 01:26:21,230 finnex or at All punch underscore to or at kit 1459 01:26:21,230 --> 01:26:25,770 underscore io Or at paulo ardoino. So 1460 01:26:25,770 --> 01:26:28,550 name is her name to find all my memes and something 1461 01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:32,250 about everything that I do Cool. Thanks 1462 01:26:32,250 --> 01:26:33,750 so much for coming on paulo. I 1463 01:26:33,750 --> 01:26:35,930 really enjoyed the conversation. Thank 1464 01:26:35,930 --> 01:26:39,850 you guys. It was super fun Thank you 1465 01:26:39,850 --> 01:26:41,850 for joining us on this week's episode. We 1466 01:26:41,850 --> 01:26:44,510 release new episodes every week You can find and 1467 01:26:44,510 --> 01:26:47,030 subscribe to the show on itunes spotify youtube 1468 01:26:47,030 --> 01:26:50,350 soundcloud or wherever you listen to podcasts And if 1469 01:26:50,350 --> 01:26:52,490 you have a google home or a lexa device, you can 1470 01:26:52,490 --> 01:26:54,090 tell it to listen to the latest episode of the 1471 01:26:54,090 --> 01:26:57,450 epicenter podcast Go to epicenter .tv slash subscribe 1472 01:26:57,450 --> 01:26:59,430 for a full list of places where you can watch and 1473 01:26:59,430 --> 01:27:01,610 listen And while you're there be sure to sign up 1474 01:27:01,610 --> 01:27:03,610 for the newsletter. So you get new episodes in 1475 01:27:03,610 --> 01:27:06,190 your inbox as they're released If you want to 1476 01:27:06,190 --> 01:27:08,030 interact with us your guests or other podcast 1477 01:27:08,030 --> 01:27:10,850 listeners You can follow us on twitter and please leave 1478 01:27:10,850 --> 01:27:12,930 us a review on itunes. It helps people find the show 1479 01:27:12,930 --> 01:27:15,670 and we're always happy to read them So thanks so 1480 01:27:15,670 --> 01:27:17,770 much and we look forward to being back next week