1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,200 This is epicenter episode 450 with gas, Josh Lyman. 2 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:19,400 Welcome to episode of the show which talks about the 3 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,500 Technologies projects in people driving decentralization and the 4 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:25,200 global box. One revolution, I'm Ryan Crane. 5 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:28,600 And today, I'm speaking with Josh Lehman, he's the executive 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,400 director of the irbid foundation and we're going to talk a lot 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,500 about, you know, what is there a bit and what it all means? 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,000 Just before that brief word from our sponsors. 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,400 So first of all, we have steak wallet, steak wallet is, you 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,600 know, your new favorite multi-chain Mobile Wallet, that 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,600 puts the power of rep 3 at your fingertips. 12 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:51,700 So with just a few Taps, you can easily stay can manage your 13 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:55,800 assets on over. 22 different, protocols, including Matrix, 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,300 IBM's l2's and chains, like Cosmos Alana near and more. 15 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:05,500 You're also recently integrated B&B in harmony once taking and 16 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:07,000 support for nf2. TS. 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,700 So yeah, just check it out. They also. 18 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:14,800 Yeah, adding also, especially, and if you support so, go and 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,900 download steak wall with today, on IOS and Android or go to 20 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:22,500 steak wallet. .F. I and that's steak spelt like 21 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,800 the meat and then also knows he's safe so close to safe is, 22 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:30,400 you know, the leading security standard for web, three Asset 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,100 Management, reimagining the future, ownership and value 24 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:36,400 coordination. It works basic as a multisig. 25 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,800 Smart contract accountants compatible across, evm chains, 26 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:42,100 totally programmable. The give you the power to 27 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,400 customize permissions, and access set user limits and 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,400 ensure the stealth security while doing so it secures over 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,500 60 billion in South custody. Maybe slightly lower at the 30 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:56,500 moment, not sure. But a huge amount and caters to 31 00:01:56,500 --> 00:02:01,300 dolls institutions, but also individuals it will be on if 32 00:02:01,300 --> 00:02:05,800 you're even polygon optimism, BSE Avalanche, lots of different 33 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,500 chains. So go to canosa stash saved. 34 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:12,700 Ohio to check it out and third of all again, wallet, Tallyho. 35 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,400 So Tallyho is reefing involved. Kind of has like a public goods. 36 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,300 It's like community-owned, alternative to many masks. 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,400 They also focus a lot on, like, metaverse and having, and if the 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,200 first of all of this kind of like structured organized as a 39 00:02:29,208 --> 00:02:33,300 doll and their, you know, their commitment to community, 40 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:35,000 ownership goes beyond, just the wallet. 41 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,800 So, they also sponsoring R dot JS. 42 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:42,100 I said, open source, JavaScript library, and they also pledged 43 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:44,900 to commit two and a half percent of the token Supply to a get 44 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:48,900 coin Aqueduct. So, head over to Tallyho dot 45 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:53,900 cash, so that's T. All y h, o.cache to try that. 46 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,600 And with that, let's get into the episode Josh. 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,900 Thanks so much for joining me. It's great to have you here. 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,700 Yeah, thanks so much for having me. 49 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:07,700 It is great to be here. Yeah, so so maybe a little bit 50 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:10,400 of context here. So we're going to speak about 51 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,100 Urban today and kind of theme of this orbit of this episode is 52 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:18,600 sort of um building honor bit. Now we that I have actually done 53 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,900 and herbal episode before in this podcast a long time ago 54 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:27,400 goes five years ago where I'm here and I interviewed Galen who 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,000 is the CEO of Clone which is sort of spin the main company 56 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,400 building a rabbit. So go check out the episode It's 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,200 actually still pretty current, you know, we listen to it 58 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:46,300 recently and is kind of is also, you know, it's all pretty pretty 59 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:49,400 accurate, you know because herb it has actually been sort of 60 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,000 conceived a long time ago and so a lot of the fundamental 61 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,800 architectures is also unchanged and they're just slowly moving 62 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,900 along. It has not pivoted. 63 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,800 Yeah, it's now pivot it exactly not related and so I have 64 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,300 become. I mean, I've been interested I 65 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:05,600 guess nervous since then. So for about Five years. 66 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,900 But then more recently become much more interested because I 67 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:13,300 just felt like it went from this abstract thinking something. 68 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:15,500 Okay, there's actually a lot of activity progress. 69 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,600 Felt like it was going somewhere and going to some place that's 70 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,600 exciting. And and then Josh here. 71 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,100 Yeah so Josh is at the very Foundation but maybe we can we 72 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:31,500 can just hang out with you at this point. 73 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:33,800 Tell us a little bit about yourself. 74 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,600 You know, who are you? And how did you get involved in 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:42,700 this Urban thing? Yes I'm Josh I head up the Urban 76 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:47,600 Foundation which is a new entity as of this year unlike a lot of 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,000 projects in the space orbit started first with a for-profit 78 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,800 company that worked on the project for a long time and spin 79 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,500 up. Spun off the foundation much 80 00:04:56,500 --> 00:04:58,300 later. After kind of a long incubation 81 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:03,700 period and a good amount of watching the space to figure out 82 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:07,400 how to best do a foundation. And what it should do, my 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,200 backgrounds in software development, I did a series of 84 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,300 startups in San Francisco Bay Area. 85 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,400 They all, you know, eventually didn't make it, but they took 86 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,500 progressively longer to not make it learned a lot from doing 87 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:23,900 that. Built a lot of Technology myself 88 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:27,200 as a solo founder, always at first and eventually with the 89 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,200 team. And I spent a lot of time, just 90 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,200 kind of in the trenches of classic web to programming 91 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:41,100 building, Technology, I started my involvement with herb. 92 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:43,200 It started as just an Enthusiast. 93 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:46,500 I heard about it on Hacker News, which is how a lot of people 94 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,000 heard about a lot of things. Back in the day, maybe they 95 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,300 still do and whatever it was, I have no clue but it was 96 00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:55,600 certainly really interesting and somewhat spent a lot of time 97 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,400 naming things and it seemed like a, you know, it was serious in a 98 00:06:00,407 --> 00:06:02,800 different way than then, a lot of things were that I was 99 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,400 familiar with but I didn't quite get it and it took a few years I 100 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,400 think until about late. Only 16 early 2017 to when I 101 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,300 finally really understood the project because they put some 102 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:16,800 time into explaining it in this like 10 minute long video 103 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:20,600 interview with Kayla and then Curtis and I started going to 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,600 meet ups because they had these in the Bay Area and I became 105 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:27,400 absolutely fascinated with it because it was stupidly 106 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,900 ambitious, you know, I was always into functional, 107 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:35,900 programming had been since college and I built most of the 108 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:38,700 technology. I worked on enclosure because I 109 00:06:38,707 --> 00:06:41,200 had a hard time grokking Haskell closure made a lot of sense to 110 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,100 me and I always, you know, I loved functional programming but 111 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:48,600 I was not really, you know, like the thing that blew my mind 112 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,900 about herb, it was that it was actually a functional computer, 113 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:55,900 an entire stack built around those ideas and so what first 114 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:59,600 drew me to it was that it was as a technologist as a programming 115 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,600 language and a stack. But this was in 2017 at a time. 116 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:10,000 One orbit was Barely usable you know it existed it had existed 117 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,200 since 2013 is a real piece of software you could run but not 118 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,600 for anything useful, really? And so I stayed involved with 119 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,300 the project talking to the various people that we're 120 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:25,200 working on it that I met at these meetups like Galen and Ted 121 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,100 over the course of I guess till 2020. 122 00:07:29,100 --> 00:07:32,000 So about three years as I was working on this other startup 123 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,400 and in 2020 I got really into it again. 124 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:40,700 And decided to plunge a little bit more fully into the 125 00:07:40,700 --> 00:07:44,400 ecosystem. As I, you know, found myself 126 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,100 increasingly impressed by what these guys had built that they 127 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:52,800 take in this crazy idea to reinvent, all of computing, you 128 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,300 know, who would do that, and they actually did it and started 129 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:59,200 building real products on it. And it was at that point, that, 130 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,200 you know, the Stars, aligned for me, and I got to make the plunge 131 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:08,100 into working on it full-time. Cool II, think he's sort of like 132 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:10,800 touched on, you know, you mentioned like a few things 133 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,700 before I mentioned. Like functional computer 134 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:15,700 reinvent Computing. But like most people listening 135 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:20,300 to this podcast, they will not have heard of it at all. 136 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:22,400 Probably. Or maybe they heard like the 137 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,800 heard about it and we're very pleased by it. 138 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:26,500 That's a very common one. Yeah. 139 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:29,000 Maybe to some of the people have heard about it and confused. 140 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,500 Most many people will not have heard about it at all. 141 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:38,200 So Yeah, it can you explain what is urban and what is division 142 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,400 over but what is it trying to accomplish? 143 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:43,700 You have to start and may be relevant. 144 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:45,400 For this crowd orbit is not a blockchain. 145 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:50,300 It makes use of a blockchain which it did as of 2019. 146 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,200 But that's, you know, probably not the most fundamental 147 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:01,500 component of it, Whatever It Is. Is the re-creation of personal 148 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:08,500 Computing sort of. As imagined at the, you know, 149 00:09:08,500 --> 00:09:11,900 turn of the 90s when the internet was becoming a thing. 150 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:15,700 And There was this dream that people would be running all of 151 00:09:15,708 --> 00:09:18,600 their own software on servers and connecting peer-to-peer with 152 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,200 one another. That was the mentality of of 153 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,800 the, you know, the early pioneers of the internet and 154 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,100 obviously it morphed into something very different. 155 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,300 The fundamental idea behind her 'but I think is that Computing 156 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:39,200 is too complicated. The the stack that we build on 157 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:45,600 is inherited from the 70s and before you know, Unix and Linux 158 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:51,600 which well, you know, Unix being kind of the main philosophy 159 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,900 powering Linux which power is pretty much the entire internet, 160 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:59,400 which is, in my opinion the most useful interesting application 161 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,900 of computers which is communication between people 162 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:07,400 that is all based on technology that predates networks 163 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,700 themselves and so ever since then we've been bolting on 164 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:15,300 additional layers of software further and further up the stack 165 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:18,800 as we discover Things that we really want to use computers for 166 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,500 and as a developer in the, you know, 20 teens what you find is 167 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:27,900 that building the kinds of applications that we all want to 168 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:31,200 build is insanely complicated. And it's full of call incidental 169 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,200 complexity, the things that are not related to the problem. 170 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,900 You're trying to solve, but our to satisfy the constraints of 171 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:41,800 the Computing environment that you're in. 172 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,000 So you need to build authentication, you need to do 173 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,900 with databases, you need to deal with security, And a bunch more. 174 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:50,700 The fundamental idea returning to Urban is. 175 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:55,100 If you could redesign Computing to be, you know, from the 176 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:59,100 present looking back in time and going, this is actually what we 177 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:02,800 want to use computers for is communication with other human 178 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,800 beings. If we were to build a computer 179 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,600 today, Around the things that we know we want to use computers 180 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,100 for. Could you build something that 181 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,300 was simple enough to where everyone could actually run 182 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:16,700 their own technology? Without. 183 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,600 You know, descending into a horrible web of complexity that 184 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,800 ultimately leads people to delegate that to trusted third 185 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,200 parties that can do it for them. And if you can do that, you end 186 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,600 up with very different software. You end up with things that are 187 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,700 not services but tools this is a thing that you know is held up 188 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,400 very well about galen's whole line of reasoning is that 189 00:11:41,408 --> 00:11:43,900 software should feel like a tool that should feel like you know a 190 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:49,900 thing that you buy or create and then you Like forever and maybe 191 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:52,900 tweak it here and there over time, but ultimately it's a 192 00:11:52,908 --> 00:11:55,600 thing that you own and it's a thing that stands the test of 193 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:01,900 time, you know, there's a idea to make, you know, as close to 194 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:06,200 Eternal software as we possibly can things that are inherently 195 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,300 good and you know, without an underlying motive to become. 196 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:19,800 Google and to own every aspect of, you know, the people that 197 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,800 use the system. So yeah that's that's really 198 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,200 what. It's aspiring to be is a system 199 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,400 in which a group of people. Ideally everybody runs their own 200 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,200 infrastructure and runs the tools that they need to 201 00:12:33,208 --> 00:12:36,400 communicate with the people they need to communicate with and 202 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,000 they are very much using a proper bicycle for the mine. 203 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:45,800 Something that isn't trying to harvest their attention for 204 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:51,100 various forms of profits. And not that I'm against profit, 205 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:55,900 but the kinds of things that are harmful to the end-user often in 206 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:57,900 ways, that their creators don't anticipate. 207 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:03,000 Now, that's kind of a, you know, philosophical pitch. 208 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,000 What this thing actually is, it's a new Computing stack, it's 209 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,500 like you go back to the 1970s you you start over from scratch 210 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:13,300 with what a computer should be from Assembly Language on up to 211 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,200 a higher level language on up to an operating system that uses 212 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,500 those Stacks. That's You know, like I 213 00:13:20,508 --> 00:13:22,700 mentioned earlier that's an absurd thing to imagine doing 214 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:25,000 these days. Nobody goes and says, let me 215 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,300 just, you know, start over at Assembly Language and build a 216 00:13:29,308 --> 00:13:32,200 new Computing environment because that's just a huge 217 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:33,700 challenge. Well, that's what her, but set 218 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,200 out to do and that they actually did, and that you can now run 219 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:41,200 software on top of, Yeah, I think that is one of the things 220 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,400 that sort of actually particularly striking about the 221 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,000 urban thing which kind of makes sense. 222 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,500 If you understand like the scale of the ambition is also sort of 223 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:56,200 the history of the project and it's just like how long this has 224 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,700 been going on for 20 years? Yeah. 225 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,800 Can you talk a little bit about sort of yeah. 226 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,600 What is the history of urban? And so I can I can talk about it 227 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,700 in perfectly because I wasn't there in the early days but you 228 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:11,000 know, I've had a lot of Laura passed down from me through to 229 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,500 me through being around all these people. 230 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,900 But this Legend would have it. The project started in about 231 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:20,800 2002 as the personal project of a guy named Curtis Garden. 232 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,200 Much has been said about him. I'm not going to say too much. 233 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,200 He worked on this as a personal project and as an idea from 234 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,000 about, you know, something that there aren't any public records 235 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,300 of until around. Screw up the year. 236 00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:41,700 I think it was 2010 or 11 there was a moron lab as a site. 237 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:49,100 He ran blog post that introduced the concept of urban and the 238 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,400 dart you know, the those early period when it was kind of an 239 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,900 idea in his mind to when it became public was you know, 240 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,100 seven or eight years. At about the time that you 241 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,700 imagine Bitcoin was being created, don't really know 242 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:04,400 exactly how long that was being worked on, but probably over a 243 00:15:04,408 --> 00:15:07,700 similar stretch, it was, you know, announce to the world at 244 00:15:07,708 --> 00:15:11,900 about the same time and it existed as a, you know, 245 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,600 complete. Although, you know, not very 246 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,200 good working system in 2012, 2013, somewhere in there. 247 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,400 And that's when Curtis took that idea and said, you know, I need 248 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,600 to in order to actually build this thing. 249 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,400 I'm going to need to recruit a team and I'm Need to raise some 250 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:35,100 money and he went out and found a company called Tuan with with 251 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:41,900 gaalan who became his co-founder shortly thereafter and the two 252 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:46,700 of them worked on flan from now from then until the present and 253 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:49,400 Lon. You know, the idea was that, you 254 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:55,500 know, there's kind of two models that Eric s Raymond outlined 255 00:15:55,700 --> 00:16:00,000 like an early 90s paper called the cathedral and the bazaar 256 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,300 where there's these two models for for building software, you 257 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:06,100 have the cathedral which is the top-down hierarchical. 258 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,000 There is a singular point with a vision and everything stems from 259 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,500 that and defines Software System by Design. 260 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,000 And then you have the bazaar which is sort of a Linux model 261 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,100 of Open Source where you have a group of people who build 262 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:23,200 something collectively on Merit and you end up with very 263 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,400 different kinds of You know, the cathedral is very much, you 264 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,500 know, rigid and hierarchical and highly specific in the bazaar is 265 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:34,700 sort of organic and amorphous and, you know, full of all kinds 266 00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,200 of different outgrowths. And both are very good. 267 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,100 Both both can be not good. Also there just to two models. 268 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:46,300 And the idea with herb, it was, you know, for this system to 269 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,000 come to exist. It has to start. 270 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:53,400 As a cathedral, it's very much a You know, it has a singular 271 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,800 vision and a Take on the world that has to be defined and done 272 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,100 in a setting, that gives the Creator's more or less complete 273 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:08,500 control over that Vision until which point, that that vision is 274 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:12,000 sufficiently solidified and communicable to a wider 275 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,500 audience, the principles of the system are defined. 276 00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:21,599 And at that point morphing into a Bazaar model is It's a good 277 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,200 thing. So, Tuan was that Cathedral? 278 00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:31,000 That would You know, sort of give birth to the project and 279 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,000 over that period of time, you know, herb it gained something 280 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,900 of a reputation as being sort of hostile to open source. 281 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:42,000 That's why they were really not trying to harness open source 282 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:49,500 until a point at which the system was solid enough that 283 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:53,400 time started happening in about 20, 20, maybe a little bit 284 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,800 before which is about when I showed up. 285 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,200 And that was when flan was Getting to realize, this is the 286 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,500 time to begin. Figuring out how to transition 287 00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:06,400 this from being our project, and our vision, to something that is 288 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:12,400 more widely held by a community and eventually an ecosystem over 289 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,000 a lot of that time, the technical, you know, the the 290 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 work that had to happen was that orbit had to go from something 291 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,400 that was an MVP to something that he really embodied its own 292 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,800 principles. And at a bare minimum, it needed 293 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,800 to work, you know? Like, it needed to be a thing 294 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,000 that That you know, you didn't have to do what we call a 295 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,700 network breach on every couple of months, what used to happen? 296 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:40,000 That's where you basically reset the entire magnet 20 and 297 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,400 everyone must start over from scratch with all of their data 298 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,300 blown out. You know. 299 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,400 It's like a, you know, like a test net that you can just blow 300 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,400 out and that was the state of things and it was resetting 301 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,600 every few months, which made it very hard to actually use it for 302 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,900 anything real, and it was horribly inefficient and the 303 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:59,200 design of the veins. The The colonel was not really 304 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,900 fleshed out. So there's a lot of churn of the 305 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:04,800 code base which made it very hard to. 306 00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,800 Except open source contributions even though the code was open 307 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,000 source because you often have, you know, sweeping design 308 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,200 decisions being made that blow out the entire way of doing 309 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,000 things that aren't really communicated to anyone. 310 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:22,800 That's, you know, we're now at this point where that's all 311 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:29,100 changing, Yeah and I think this is a good good description. 312 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:34,500 I think it's description of both to history a bit and and sort of 313 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:37,000 where it's at. Yeah, I do. 314 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,000 I do you think I mean yeah. Who knows is that though? 315 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,900 She did right in like how long he was working on this thing 316 00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:45,900 until lucky kind of came out but definitely. 317 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,000 Yeah, you can imagine something like that, right? 318 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,000 Probably like, yeah, I think is sort of a fascinating thing 319 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,100 right now to some person spent like eight years. 320 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,100 All right. Just like in a solitary 321 00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:01,000 pondering of this, crazy idea. Yeah. 322 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Just in a Rapture with an idea, you know. 323 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,700 Yeah. That's it's a long period of 324 00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:09,300 time to be working on a thick alone. 325 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,800 What is like, you mentioned, a bunch of stuff, right? 326 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,800 You mentioned sort of the release of this initial orbit 327 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,800 system in, you know, twenty twelve and ten getting to the 328 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,000 point where okay, it is more is more. 329 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,400 Something that's like, okay, solid, right? 330 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,700 And it's going to be kind of like this, but can you talk a 331 00:20:29,708 --> 00:20:33,600 little bit more about, you know, where's the early today? 332 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:39,300 Like what has what's the current state of, you know, of the 333 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:41,800 system? Yeah, totally. 334 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:46,400 And let me let me start that by kind of speed running. 335 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,900 Some of the major things that I've been present for over the 336 00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:53,100 last couple of years that maybe last three that started to make 337 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:55,100 it really solid and get us to where we are today. 338 00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:58,100 And I think one of those big ones which was about a year 339 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:02,000 before I came on to really devote my energy to the project 340 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,900 was in 2019 when they went on chain prior to that orbits 341 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:10,000 address. Space model was stored in a text 342 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,500 file. Ilan in a GitHub repo. 343 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,200 There was always this idea that there needs to be people that 344 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,300 cryptographically own Parts of the urban address space but we 345 00:21:22,308 --> 00:21:24,900 don't have a system for that actually. 346 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:28,500 I think that's maybe something that's where work explaining. 347 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,200 What is urban outer space. Yeah. 348 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,200 So you know, Urban address space is The it's the network. 349 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,300 Topology, we have names for for these in order are running, 350 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:44,300 Urban node is called a ship and there multiple classes of ship, 351 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:47,900 the ones that are important to really talk about for this 352 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:55,000 conversation are galaxies stars and planets galaxies, you can 353 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,900 think of kind of like root DNS nodes. 354 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,900 They are able to spawn Stars which are other infrastructure 355 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:07,700 nodes. They perform pure Discovery and 356 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:09,700 packet routing because this is this is sort of one of the 357 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:11,100 problems you have with a peer-to-peer network is 358 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,000 ultimately you need to be able to establish connection with 359 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,300 people throughout the world. You Jen tend to need certain 360 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:24,200 nodes that are privileged to and usually have better 361 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,500 infrastructure capabilities to route, your request to somebody 362 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,500 else that you can form a peer-to-peer connection. 363 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:36,000 And that's the main role of One of the main roles, at least of 364 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,000 the infrastructure notes, the nervous, you have this 365 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000 hierarchical address space which is there to enable a 366 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,300 peer-to-peer Network to actually operate efficiently. 367 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,000 So the galaxies, there's a limited number of those. 368 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,200 Just as there are root DNS nodes. 369 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,700 They tend to be fairly valuable because there aren't very many 370 00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:55,300 of them. They also form What's called the 371 00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:59,600 galactic Senate, which is the group of people that have the 372 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,400 ability to upgrade the rules that Define urban Our space. 373 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,600 So this was all dreamed up. Long before, etherium and dowse 374 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,900 existed. But you can think of the 375 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,700 galaxies is kind of a dow. And that's that's, you know, 376 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:22,000 kind of how they operate today. They vote to upgrade set, smart 377 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,600 contracts, that run on ethereum, and that's what governs the 378 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,200 rules of the address space. So, you have these galaxies 255 379 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,300 of them, Each of, which can spawn 255 stars. 380 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:38,000 And each star can spawn roughly 65,000 planets. 381 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:45,500 So 2232, There are 16 planets are, what an individual? 382 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,700 Orbit user would use. They are valuable enough to 383 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:53,800 where you would actually want to establish a track record of 384 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,200 using one use a day to day but they are not so valuable that 385 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:04,900 you have to go through annoying opsec Hoops in order to you know 386 00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,100 keep a valuable piece of cryptographic assets safe and so 387 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:12,700 each of these are n FTS. They all correspond to a number 388 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:16,300 from zero through four point. Three billion to 2. 389 00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:20,500 To, and they comprise the urban Network when running they 390 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:24,300 largely operate, the same with these slight differences in that 391 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:27,600 stars and galaxies perform packet routing a discovery. 392 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:31,100 And they also one thing I left out as the galaxies perform 393 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,200 software distribution, so a Galaxy disseminates its software 394 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,100 to all of its Stars which then Disseminate that to all of their 395 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:45,000 planets. And so you can imagine a 396 00:24:45,008 --> 00:24:47,600 fully-fledged urban Network being a thing in which the 397 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,100 different galaxies start to diverge in which code, they 398 00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:53,800 actually Supply to their section of the network. 399 00:24:54,700 --> 00:25:00,400 That hasn't happened. It's it could though, Yeah. 400 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,300 Yeah. Totally. 401 00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:04,600 And then basically right. So you have you have this like 402 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,500 scarcity of this address space and then in 2019 right? 403 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:14,700 You mentioned basic is like put on etherium and today lives on 404 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:15,600 in here. All right? 405 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,400 So like if trick smart contracts turned out to be the right 406 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,600 substrate to build this kind of model, you know, rather than 407 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,700 trying to invent that ourselves. It's like, oh yeah, use ethereum 408 00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:29,800 that that works. Yeah and scarcity. 409 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,400 It's worth noting. You know a thing about scarcity 410 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,500 and that it provides an important function because each 411 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:39,600 of these You know, the urban address space, each one of these 412 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,600 FTS is what's called an urban ID and it has a human pronounceable 413 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,300 and visual representation that's recognizable. 414 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,700 My planet is called well, ref potlucks you can, you know, it 415 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,100 sounds weird but eventually you get used to it and because you 416 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,600 can pronounce it, it becomes a name of sorts and that's what 417 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:00,500 you use. When you run any software on the 418 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:02,700 urban Network to communicate with other people, you know, 419 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:06,500 it's like your domain name and IP address rolled into one. 420 00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,000 And persistent or, like your ens name, you know, as maybe a good 421 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,300 way to think about it for this crowd, but it's built into the 422 00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,000 operating system in every application uses it at a packet 423 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,800 level to send packets signed by that identity throughout the 424 00:26:20,808 --> 00:26:23,300 network. So this becomes Like A Primitive 425 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,400 identification mechanism for every actor on any piece of 426 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,400 software that you build on the orbit operating system. 427 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,500 And that's really like the key important thing to get from a 428 00:26:34,508 --> 00:26:36,900 bit address space. Is that there's enough finite 429 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:39,300 number of those in their scarcity, is what makes them 430 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:44,200 valuable and makes it. So that herb, it creates high 431 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,000 trust communities because your reputation is valuable, you had 432 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,300 to pay something to obtain that nft and communicate with people. 433 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,400 And if you do anything malicious, it will destroy the 434 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,400 value of that in other people's eyes and, you know, ultimately, 435 00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:10,900 Not work out very well for you. So you maintained, I think this 436 00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:15,900 you know, big event or this big change, I kind of came with her 437 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:19,000 between us was distribution of software, right? 438 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,800 So you know basically people can can write applications sort of 439 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,300 like Urban applications. We can he's playing like 440 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:30,000 whatever with applications and how do they differ from? 441 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:37,400 Let's say an application that lets say an iPhone application 442 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:42,500 Or maybe adopt like let's say any theory of decentralized 443 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,700 application. So what are the difference is? 444 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:52,500 Yeah, that's a great question. So Urban application is 445 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,800 server-side. Primarily it could, of course, 446 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,700 have any number of interfaces, you can interface with an orbit 447 00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:07,000 application, over an iPhone app or over command line over a web 448 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,200 interface. But the urban part of it is 449 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,100 something that runs server side. But the key thing is that it's 450 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:15,800 your server. And so, you know, when you run 451 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,500 an urban application, you're running it on your own node. 452 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,100 And so, that is your own personal Cloud Server. 453 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,500 It is You know an urban application is you know, the 454 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:32,000 technical name for it would be what's called a desk which is 455 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:38,100 like a package of code, the main unit of code in there is what's 456 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:41,900 called an agent and this is like a long-running process. 457 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,300 You can think about it like a you know, kind of like a web 458 00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:47,600 server or some service that would run on. 459 00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,700 Say Linux we call them agents and they have a specific 460 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:54,700 interface for accepting information. 461 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,000 Allowing you to read? Information out of them and 462 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,200 subscribe to certain paths that will produce updates over time. 463 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,900 So I think the key things about an orbit application that are 464 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:16,800 important to get our You know, any application you build like I 465 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,200 was mentioning before has Authentication? 466 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:27,100 And authorization baked into it every packet that you send is. 467 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:31,400 It's bound to an identity. So you're not building 468 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,500 authentication systems into an urban application. 469 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:38,800 Every application has the ability to talk to any other 470 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,600 application whether that's running on your ship or any 471 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,000 other persons or bit node worship, same thing. 472 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,500 That, you know, Urban defines this peer-to-peer Network that 473 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:52,700 allows these applications to talk to one another and all the 474 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,600 information exchanged over that network is typed. 475 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:58,100 This is kind of, this is kind of cool. 476 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,100 You don't need to go in and read developer documentation for, you 477 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:08,100 know what someone's Json API is and then program against it and 478 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:10,600 get everything just right because either you can send 479 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,400 information or you can't because it satisfies the type system or 480 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,600 not, you know, the whole network and peer-to-peer hope your 481 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,300 network is. Statically typed and so when you 482 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,300 build nerve, it application that can talk to any other person's 483 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,800 application. You can also distribute that 484 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,700 peer-to-peer. So if I build something, anyone 485 00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:30,200 else can get it directly from me. 486 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:35,200 So every herb it node is its own app store or at least can't be 487 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,200 where those are things that you build rather than submitting 488 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,000 them to say Apple's App Store with an IOS app or the Chrome 489 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,500 web store for a web extension or some third parties. 490 00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:55,600 You know, dated moderated. Distribution mechanism, the 491 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,500 application to distributed peer-to-peer themselves. 492 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,600 And that means that every person running a Target application is 493 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,600 running a full version of it. Herb. 494 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:09,100 It is also an asset database, meaning all of the in, you know 495 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:13,600 the the the data that an application needs to run is 496 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,900 stored on that ship with transactional semantics so I 497 00:31:18,908 --> 00:31:21,900 don't databases either. So ultimately herb adapt is like 498 00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:26,400 a It's a server-side application that you do not have to build 499 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,200 authentication. Into you do not need to deploy 500 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,300 database to because orbit Arctic is one and a peer-to-peer 501 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,700 network with static typing, all of that baked in. 502 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,000 So what are these tend to look like in practice? 503 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:41,000 Well herb. It can also serve web pages so 504 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,100 you can serve your own website that talks to any, you know, a 505 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:49,800 number of Agents packaged into a desk or web application. 506 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,800 And so you have a web interface for talking to your own private 507 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,500 server and that can also talk to other people. 508 00:31:57,500 --> 00:31:59,300 So there's all kinds of applications you can build with 509 00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:05,300 this, anything social the current you know kind of 510 00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:11,200 Predominant use case is a Discord like groups application 511 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,600 where you can form groups of people and you can create chat 512 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,200 channels, notebooks link collections, share information 513 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,600 with people. There's a variety of other 514 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,900 things that have been built as well. 515 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:25,500 And I think the thing that are particularly excels at is any 516 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,400 kind of application that networks with other people. 517 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:33,900 How this differs from adapt is that you have off chain State, 518 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:38,300 you know, this is one of the big problems of Of daps is that, you 519 00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:42,500 know, if you if you need to do anything other than display 520 00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:45,800 information on a blockchain, you have two options. 521 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,300 You store that information in local storage or you store it in 522 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:54,700 some other centralized service. And both of those are a problem. 523 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,900 You can also store it on a blockchain but then you have to 524 00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:59,200 pay a bunch of money to store it and there's all kinds of data 525 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,200 that you really just don't want to have to put on a Block Chain 526 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,400 because it's just not important enough, and it's only your's, 527 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,900 you know, it's your private settings or configuration gnosis 528 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,000 safe is a great example of this where you know, you're all the 529 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,400 metadata associated with your safes is stored in local 530 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,300 storage. So if you ever want to use a 531 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:22,100 different browser than Well, you kind of have to re-upload your 532 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:24,300 safes and at least the information that identifies them 533 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:27,900 at what they and what as what they are and when you sign a 534 00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:30,600 transaction, you relying on a service that gnosis runs in 535 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,600 order to shuttle. Those personally signed 536 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,500 transactions back and forth under bit application, would 537 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,600 send things directly to the other people that you are trying 538 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,700 to talk to and would store all of your information. 539 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,400 Your annotations metadata about information on a blockchain on 540 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,800 itself. Just private and only yours and 541 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,000 not shared with any third party. Well, I think that's a nice. 542 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,800 That's a nice example, right? So like, okay, let's say we the 543 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,300 two of us together. Have agnosia safe, right? 544 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:09,100 So basically like the multisig we control and helium and that 545 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:11,500 could be built inside orbit, right? 546 00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:15,699 So then it would mean now the two of us. 547 00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:17,699 When I mean, first of all, I guess right. 548 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:19,000 Would be the, what you mentioned, right? 549 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,000 Okay. So we can have each some local 550 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,100 state that describes maybe label such transactions or something 551 00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:28,300 like I think that's just in our personal server and then if you 552 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:31,699 want to make a transaction, you know, I'm like in initiating 553 00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:35,900 this transaction, it gets sent to you via the urban P2P 554 00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:38,900 Network, you know, you can, you can sign the other side and then 555 00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:41,600 like broadcast it and then it slides right. 556 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,500 Which is doesn't work like that today any theorem, right? 557 00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:49,900 Because I guess today in etherium people access this via 558 00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:54,900 you know, like the web browser and you know Oh, then it's it 559 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,200 may be in this local cash. I guess like what you said. 560 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,700 Yeah, they need, they need a way, you know, gnosis a few. 561 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,100 And I have a multisig when I sign a transaction, all I'm 562 00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:08,100 doing is You know, I'm not putting anything on the Chain 563 00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,200 yet. I'm creating, I don't know which 564 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,700 cryptography they use. Exactly. 565 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:17,600 This is beyond my pay grade but what they're doing is creating a 566 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,200 parle, essentially, a partial transaction. 567 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,100 That's a waiting one more on the multisig, and that's information 568 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:27,800 that you need to sign in order to submit it to chain, but I 569 00:35:27,808 --> 00:35:31,500 have to get that to you somehow. And the way I get that to you, 570 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,300 If you're using gnosis safe is through a service that gnosis 571 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:40,400 runs that indexes all of the multisig, addresses along with 572 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,700 the recipients. So it knows that when my address 573 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,000 signs this transaction, it looks up the other addresses that are 574 00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:54,300 on that multisig and says, okay, I need to actually provide this 575 00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:57,700 information to the other people that are accessing the gnosis 576 00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:59,500 safe client through those addresses. 577 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,700 So you're the network routing is through gnosis And if that 578 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:05,500 service goes down, then you can't use no safe anymore, it is 579 00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:07,400 not actually a decentralized application. 580 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,600 Yeah. So maybe you can go a little 581 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,300 more into like, so. Ik behalf of nose to save as an 582 00:36:15,308 --> 00:36:18,300 example, right? I think it's a nice example, but 583 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,000 like for most people they're like, okay, but why are you 584 00:36:21,008 --> 00:36:23,000 okay? Are like, why would I want to 585 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,900 use like in irbid application? Like what's the great benefit 586 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:30,900 for the sort of normal user of, you know, web application? 587 00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:35,500 So the over the internet, Today. So good. 588 00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:40,000 Come at a couple of different ways like, yeah, a lot of normal 589 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,200 users, don't really care that they own their information. 590 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,500 They just want the thing to work, right? 591 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:53,800 Some people do care that they actually own their information. 592 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,500 And a lot of people that do care of noticed that when you Own 593 00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,600 your information and you own the tools. 594 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,300 You're using it changes your behavior on the network, right? 595 00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:09,100 When you know that you're using a network in which every person 596 00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:13,200 participating is responsible for being there themselves, running 597 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,400 their own infrastructure and communicating with one another, 598 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,400 it sort of changes the social dynamics, you know, everyone has 599 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:27,900 kind of like a shared Sense of responsibility for keeping 600 00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,600 whatever that Community or application is running because 601 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,600 you're all participants on equal, footing rather than using 602 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,100 something provided by someone else. 603 00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:38,900 That's something you kind of have to feel in order to 604 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:42,100 understand. I think this is, you know, 605 00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:45,900 fairly well, fleshed out with the group's model where, you 606 00:37:45,908 --> 00:37:51,400 know, people that participate in irbid groups You know, like the 607 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,400 group only really goes down if the people stop using it, you 608 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,200 know, the urban network doesn't go down unless everyone decides 609 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,000 to actually stop using it. And so the software like that 610 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,600 characteristic of the software coupled with the fact that 611 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:10,700 developing Urban applications is Extraordinarily simple compared 612 00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,800 to building any other piece of infrastructure. 613 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:16,700 And I can talk about why that is in a minute, we probably should 614 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,100 it brings. The accessibility of building 615 00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:25,000 applications for you and your community down to a level where 616 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,800 people can normally do it. And so, you know, where my mind 617 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,600 goes is like, okay, dowser, a big thing and and do is sort of 618 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,600 a placeholder for online community that undertakes, 619 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,700 something with one another, usually with some expenditure of 620 00:38:41,707 --> 00:38:46,800 capital or effort really For lack of a better word, we'll 621 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,000 call that a dowel but there's a lot of those that don't follow 622 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,200 the traditional bow. Semantics irbid applications 623 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,900 bring developing software as a small group that is used by that 624 00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:59,700 group Within Reach to just about any of these groups. 625 00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:03,800 Like it's actually not, you know, give it a couple of years 626 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,400 maybe from now to there but this is where we're going is it's 627 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,900 actually fairly trivial for us to build our own chat 628 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,300 application that is tailored to our community exactly as we want 629 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:15,000 it. And it will never change or go 630 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,500 down until we actually change it or decide to take it down or 631 00:39:18,508 --> 00:39:21,600 collectively stop using it. You know, we can actually build 632 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,700 and own our own tools as communities. 633 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:28,800 And so, it's much more of like a Cambrian explosion of different 634 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,500 kinds of software that are used by the people that, that create 635 00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:38,200 them rather than a monoculture of everybody. 636 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,000 In the world is on Twitter or using Whatsapp. 637 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,400 There are like pros and cons Of those things you know and I 638 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,500 don't necessarily think that herb it is a new internet. 639 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,200 I think it's an alternative one that works differently and 640 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,000 you're probably going to see these things you know operating 641 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,200 alongside one another for a long time you know it's nice to have 642 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,000 a global town square if you you know, want to go and troll some 643 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,700 people or, you know, get your blood boiling but it's also nice 644 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:12,600 to have a place to talk with your family that is always the 645 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,600 same and never changes. It's and it's just the thing 646 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:22,300 that you're used to. Bees folk imagine a little bit. 647 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:23,700 Sort of to aspect of. Okay. 648 00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:26,300 It's like easier to like build an application. 649 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:29,300 Can you talk a bit more about, you know, to developer 650 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,300 perspective like, you know, what are the advantages from the 651 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,400 perspective of somebody, you know, wanting to build an 652 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,000 application. Yeah, I think this is sort of 653 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,300 the big like, this is the biggest selling point in my mind 654 00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:46,900 that this is what originally drew me to the project which is 655 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,300 and I think that, you know, when you nail this, everything else 656 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,200 kind of stems from this because people build, you know, they 657 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,600 build good software. So, you know, if you want to 658 00:40:56,607 --> 00:41:03,100 build a web application today, Like one of the first questions 659 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:05,200 you like, there's a whole bunch of things you have to do, 660 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,400 regardless of what it is you're building. 661 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,000 There's a bunch of things you have to figure out. 662 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,400 How are you going to authenticate your users? 663 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,800 How are you going to store their information because you need to 664 00:41:14,808 --> 00:41:16,500 store their information? If you're going to authenticate 665 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:20,400 them, at least some of it. How do you keep that secure? 666 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:24,300 How do you deploy your software and keep it running and 667 00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:26,200 embedded? Within those kinds of decisions. 668 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:27,300 There's a whole bunch of other ones. 669 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,400 Okay. Well which authentication 670 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,000 mechanism do I used to I use oauth? 671 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,700 Do I use some third-party service some sass service like 672 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:36,200 off zero that I pay for? Do I use meta mask and Go full 673 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,500 web three? You know that's a growing valid 674 00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:43,100 option. Do I you know what database do I 675 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:47,000 use my using no sequel SQL and you know, the many options 676 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,700 within those. How do I keep this information 677 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:52,700 secure which you do have to keep secure if you're storing 678 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:54,800 information for other people, right? 679 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,600 And this is still your option. If you want to build any kind of 680 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,400 Social Network application, you're going to have to build it 681 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,800 in some way where someone is responsible for maintaining the 682 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:08,400 infrastructure that stores user data and relays information back 683 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,800 and forth to people even if it snows a safe and those are just 684 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,300 signatures, you have to answer all those questions and a bunch 685 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:16,600 more, right? It doesn't really stop there. 686 00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:21,200 But you know, I'll focus on some of those some of the big ones 687 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:23,400 and you end up with this problem. 688 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,500 We're okay. We'll because someone has to run 689 00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:28,100 this thing and they have to answer all those questions and 690 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,300 they have to build all this. They got to get paid to do it. 691 00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:37,800 They have to be responsible for everybody else's data which 692 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,200 makes the application more complicated because, you know, 693 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,000 they're not storing their information. 694 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,400 They're storing things on behalf of everybody and dealing with 695 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,100 the networking involved with sending. 696 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:50,800 You know, with scaling that to whatever level of scale, it 697 00:42:50,808 --> 00:42:55,700 needs to honor bit, you don't have to deal with authentication 698 00:42:55,700 --> 00:43:01,100 because it's built in. Everyone has one identity. 699 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,200 It's built into the operating system. 700 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:05,400 It's something you can just totally take for granted and 701 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,000 assume that every piece of information that comes into your 702 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,200 system, from the outside, world comes annotated with who it came 703 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,900 from. And you just know that out of 704 00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:18,200 the box and they must be authenticated and must be the 705 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,100 person they say. They are to have sent that 706 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:23,100 packet. You don't have to deal with the 707 00:43:23,107 --> 00:43:25,300 database because Urban is already a database. 708 00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:31,600 And that's feasible because every person running herb, it is 709 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,500 running their own database in the storing, all of their own 710 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:35,300 information. So you're no longer responsible 711 00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,500 for storing anything, for anybody else, you no longer 712 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:41,200 responsible for having to build an infrastructure that can 713 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,500 handle load for a large number of people? 714 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:49,000 It's only your own blowed. So that's a, you know, for most 715 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,500 applications. It's a fairly small number 716 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:54,000 unless you're like, you know, Kanye on Twitter, and you have a 717 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,400 lot of followers, that's a different Problem. 718 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,500 But for most people, your own traffic and your own information 719 00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:07,100 is not You know, doesn't really require anything too fancy so 720 00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:08,800 you don't have to deal with databases and you don't have to 721 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,700 deal with security that's built in. 722 00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:14,400 You don't have to worry about a data breach of your users 723 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,000 because you don't have users, you only have you, you don't 724 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,600 really have to worry about devops or deployment because, 725 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,800 you know, actually like installing an orbit application, 726 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,900 just means putting some files in a place. 727 00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:31,200 After you run a specific command at the command line, to create a 728 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,200 package for these, which you can then Publish and make available 729 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,100 to anyone else. If you give them a simple text 730 00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,200 demonic that they can plug in to install your application. 731 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,100 So you have a built-in distribution mechanism directly 732 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,100 to the people that are going to use your software updating that 733 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:51,200 software is a simple as just changing the code. 734 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:54,200 And then it immediately pushes that out to everyone using it. 735 00:44:55,700 --> 00:44:58,600 Unless of course, it was broken in which case the type system 736 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,900 wouldn't let you change it in the first place you have built 737 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,100 in. Data identity, all of these 738 00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:06,200 things, these are just not things. 739 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,900 You have to worry about anymore. All you actually do is focus on 740 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:13,100 building the application that you need and you can take 741 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:17,700 networking data, storage security identity. 742 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:21,200 You can take all that for granted, I'm not to mention 743 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:28,600 devops. so, when you make it that simple, Developers actually 744 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,500 get to spend more time building things that are novel and less 745 00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:35,500 time solving the same old problems over and over and over 746 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:38,500 again, that come with embedded responsibility on behalf of 747 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:42,700 other people, which creates weird social dynamics. 748 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,700 You know, if I'm a dowel and one guy is responsible for 749 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:48,900 maintaining all of our infrastructure than he's got You 750 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:51,600 know, a certain amount of power and responsibility, and 751 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,500 obligation, that means that, you know, we're all indebted to him 752 00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:03,000 and Away in this model you don't have that, we're all peers. 753 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,500 Yeah, I think that is also one of the things that to me is very 754 00:46:09,500 --> 00:46:12,900 interesting about herb. It is the kind of different 755 00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:15,100 business models that will come with that, right? 756 00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:21,200 Because in the in the existing world, right in the sort of web 757 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,400 to Cloud world, right? Like there's a reality then 758 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,100 means that mostly okay, you're developing an application, 759 00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:32,100 you're going to have to run a bunch of servers, right? 760 00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:34,400 You have a you have to maintain? All this data do all the 761 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,900 security do all these different things, you must be SAS. 762 00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:41,400 Yeah. So it's kind of this natural 763 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:43,600 model that. Then you say okay I'm going to 764 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:49,800 charge people, you know, whatever $10 a month, right for 765 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,200 this. And I have to, you know, have 766 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,700 all these costs that come with heavy users or how, you know, 767 00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:58,200 how to cover those in more and then after like cover this off 768 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:03,200 with you, I'm cost. But then in the early world, You 769 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,600 don't have most of those costs, right? 770 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,600 So, You could do something very different. 771 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,300 I mean for one it kind of obvious model of oh, and you I'm 772 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:15,800 developing a bunch of software element. 773 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,600 Just tell you the software, right? 774 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,900 I just you can just buy it and then you can use it. 775 00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:23,100 Yeah. It's a return to the days in 776 00:47:23,107 --> 00:47:26,500 which, you know, by a box with a CD in it. 777 00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:33,600 Now at your local Costco and or wherever sell software and you 778 00:47:33,607 --> 00:47:35,000 install it to Medici. Yeah. 779 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,000 Maybe we can talk a bit more about sort of the intersection 780 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,000 between crypto and orbit. Right? 781 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,800 So we talked about the address space, right? 782 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,200 So that that's on the theorem, He also mentioned example of 783 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,600 diagnosis safe and like how One could basically if example 784 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,100 integrate that in something I grabbed it and it would be quite 785 00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:04,600 nice. But what do you see as the like 786 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,400 here? What are they Energies or like 787 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,900 how, how do? How does the crypto blockchain 788 00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:12,000 world come together with Urban more generally? 789 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,800 there's a lot left to explore the general space of Where do 790 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,000 you put your off chain State? And where do you run your 791 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,000 applications? You know, there's also the idea 792 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,400 of You know, every user can host their own applications. 793 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,100 So you, you know, you don't end up being Like it's a lot harder 794 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:37,300 to come after you in a swap. If you wanna swap isn't 795 00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:43,600 providing you to swap on you to swap.com for everybody if it's 796 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,900 actually a collective people that are all running it on their 797 00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:50,500 own servers trivially. So one is just distribution of 798 00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:55,800 infrastructure to everyone trivially because it's actually 799 00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,300 feasible to you know, run a web page, very simply for only you 800 00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:03,300 on, pretty much any computer. You know, I think another part 801 00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:09,300 is just making like, at a certain level, when you, Can 802 00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:14,700 better normalize that idea of. Like we actually have a model 803 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,000 that aligns with our values of keeping our information private 804 00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:26,700 as we transact with one another in this trustless way, you end 805 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:29,900 up. With much richer applications, 806 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,000 right? I can I can build a lot more 807 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,800 social capabilities into things that are directly. 808 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,900 Connected to a blockchain. Then I can otherwise because I 809 00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:47,000 have a layer that lets me talk directly to people, you know, 810 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,400 not only is Herb it off chain state, but it's also compute, 811 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,900 you know, it's, your orbit is a running server, it is always on 812 00:49:56,900 --> 00:50:01,600 it can do things on your behalf. We've talked a number of times, 813 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,500 although we're not quite sure how to do this. 814 00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:06,000 Because we're, you know, we're kind of looking for the right 815 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,900 group to come along to knows the space but algorithmic Trading. 816 00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:13,500 On your behalf with your own programmed, algorithms operating 817 00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:18,200 on your own crypto which are stored on your server at least, 818 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,000 you know, some degree of keys, can be stored for it, those are 819 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,600 things you can start to do with her bit. 820 00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:28,700 Push notifications and other kinds of automated interactions 821 00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:32,000 can happen because it's your server and it can talk to you 822 00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:34,400 over any mechanism that a server, talk to a person. 823 00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:39,200 So when certain things happen, You can drive all kinds of other 824 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,400 programmatic constraints, you know about. 825 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,700 Like imagine if you could get a push notification, every time 826 00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:47,500 someone requested your signature on going back to gnosis, you 827 00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:49,300 know, you've actually got something there waiting for you. 828 00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,700 When I don't have to use some other mechanism like signal to 829 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:54,800 tell you that you need to go inside this thing. 830 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,200 Instead, it's something coming directly from the urban gnosis 831 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,100 safe application that upon clicking takes you directly to a 832 00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:04,800 place where you can actually sign the transaction and view it 833 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,200 or interact with it. So, I mean, I think the I think 834 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,100 it really has to offer is just enriching the whole ecosystem, 835 00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:15,300 with more usable applications, that are less fragmented like 836 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,000 crypto needs an operating system. 837 00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:21,000 It needs something that isn't just a set of disparate tools 838 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:26,100 built into web pages with you know augmented with centralized 839 00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:28,900 Services behind the scenes of whatever company is providing 840 00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:32,300 the thing. Which they, you know, like to 841 00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:34,600 know, sisters credit, they've built it in such a way that they 842 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,800 really don't know anything about you when you're using this. 843 00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:39,700 This and that's good but they're still up against the fact that 844 00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:42,400 they have to maintain the service or gnosis safe doesn't 845 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:48,400 work and because they don't have a model in which you know they 846 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,800 can build an application that does know things about you but 847 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,400 without the company gnosis knowing things about you, 848 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,000 they're handicapped in terms of the amount of like the quality 849 00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:59,600 of experience that they can deliver you. 850 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,800 You know they can't give you the ability to annotate your own 851 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,200 transactions with private information, that is Meaningful 852 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,300 to you that you don't want to share with some other Faith. 853 00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:09,900 Like, you know, you can't annotate your address book with 854 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:12,100 information about the people that you're transacting with, 855 00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:15,600 which addresses are associated to whom without giving that some 856 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,300 other company. And they can't send you push 857 00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,000 notifications because they would have to have enough information 858 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,700 about you in order to send that notification in the first place 859 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:25,900 and they don't want that. So there's just kind of like 860 00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:30,400 this Global limit to usability that is placed on the crypto 861 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:36,800 ecosystem, as a whole, until they have a platform to build. 862 00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:40,100 Build applications that doesn't involve some major compromise 863 00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:43,700 and integrity of what the whole thing stands for herb. 864 00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:47,400 It can deliver that. Fantastic. 865 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,300 So let's talk a little bit about sort of, you know, the largely 866 00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:52,400 existence that you mentioned in beginning, right? 867 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,000 To those like long for a long time as the single main company 868 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,000 that receives helping the cathedral. 869 00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:03,700 But now we're moving to this world of the bizarre right where 870 00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:05,800 there's like lots of things going on. 871 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,900 So you know what are what are the most exciting things that 872 00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:12,500 are happening in the urban ecosystem? 873 00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,700 One company is couple of clowns, doing some exciting things 874 00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,300 still, but I'm going to save them for, you know, for the end 875 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,000 because we talked about them a lot. 876 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,700 Holy mmm. Pulliam.com they are a group 877 00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:33,300 that started building honor, but beginning of this year. 878 00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:39,700 They were previously trying to build their product on polka dot 879 00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:43,000 but quickly realized that the whole off chain State and lack 880 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,800 of you know that blockchains couldn't solve everything and 881 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,500 they needed something else and they, you know, the team, 882 00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:51,200 they're led by this guy named Trent. 883 00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:55,500 Discovered orbit and realize that it actually solved a lot of 884 00:53:55,500 --> 00:53:58,400 the problems. And what they want to build is a 885 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,700 unified Computing. Environment a space its 886 00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:10,600 collaborative for douse. The idea is You know, okay, I've 887 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,500 got my group of people and there's a bunch of things that 888 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:15,000 we want to do very much like we do on Discord, right? 889 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,300 We want to be able to talk with one another. 890 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:23,500 We want to be able to and talk to one another over text over 891 00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:27,200 video chat over audio a variety of different ways. 892 00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:33,900 We want to be able to like and this is one of the things that I 893 00:54:33,908 --> 00:54:36,500 haven't seen, you know, they're, they're heavily in the works on, 894 00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,100 but I can only kind of Imagine but they're building. 895 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,800 What feels like a desktop environment in which each Dow 896 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,100 defines its own space with its own software that it runs its 897 00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:50,600 customized its look and feel. And then shared cursors are a 898 00:54:50,607 --> 00:54:52,100 built-in primitive to the environment. 899 00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:56,800 So when you are in a space on your desktop, which is earmarked 900 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,900 for some specific, do they call this a realm? 901 00:55:01,300 --> 00:55:04,000 You're seeing not only your that the software for that group, but 902 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,100 you're also seeing the cursors of other people and you can 903 00:55:06,100 --> 00:55:09,400 build in applications that have shared cursors, amongst all 904 00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:16,700 Members of the community as a native primitive along with, you 905 00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:21,500 know, a global audio room, or video room or something that 906 00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:24,600 this group can talk to, and you can easily switch to another 907 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,400 space. Another realm that has a totally 908 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,700 different layout. Totally different applications, 909 00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:34,700 and totally different people. And urban is really kind of the 910 00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:40,300 backbone of what enables all of that, all of that to happen, 911 00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:44,600 there's a little more to it also you know when you instantiate a 912 00:55:44,607 --> 00:55:46,700 realm you can do. So with whatever you know 913 00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:52,300 governance rules you want and you can tokenize it as well 914 00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:57,600 immediately if you so choose. So you know it's kind of like a 915 00:55:57,700 --> 00:56:00,600 there are these Dow Builder tools out there. 916 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,500 But to my knowledge none of them also come with a Complete Suite 917 00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:06,200 of tooling that allows those people to all interact with one 918 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,700 another, in a shared space, in software, that they collectively 919 00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:16,100 decide to use Akbar, is another one worth mentioning different 920 00:56:16,100 --> 00:56:19,100 company. They've been running since about 921 00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:22,200 November of last year, so you'll see a theme with people getting 922 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,400 started right after software distribution hit, it became 923 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,000 possible to actually build things under. 924 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:30,300 But Akbar is building, its own blockchain honor, but starting 925 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:32,800 as an L2, ZK based roll up to a seated. 926 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,700 Ethereum the idea is Herb. It ships, all act as validator 927 00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:38,200 nodes. Ultimately, their plan is to 928 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,600 build an L1 blockchain. That is all natively under bit 929 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,200 that there's still some infrastructure work for herb, it 930 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,800 to undergo for that to really be possible. 931 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,800 But in the meantime as EK based, L2 is what they're going for and 932 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:59,600 that ZK language is all based on who, you know, the fundamental 933 00:57:00,300 --> 00:57:03,300 Assembly Language of urban, you might say is called knock. 934 00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:07,800 They've built a parallel to that called zoc, which is the zero 935 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,000 knowledge version of it and they found that knock being a 936 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,200 combinator based language is particularly well-suited to zero 937 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,400 knowledge proof. So they've been working somewhat 938 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,400 closely with Stark where they've built Sky row compatibility 939 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,100 between Hoon code, which compiles to knock or zoc and 940 00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:30,600 Cairo. And so, the idea is that You can 941 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,300 now with them, not only, can you build a peer to peer social 942 00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:37,400 application and distribute that peer-to-peer with other people? 943 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,400 But it can also distribute smart contracts directly with it all 944 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,800 built in the same language that the rest of your program is 945 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,500 built in. So that's pretty cool. 946 00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:48,000 You learn one language, you learn, one stack and you have 947 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,000 blockchain programming and peer-to-peer software 948 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:55,500 development all at one place. Another group called Tyrell. 949 00:57:55,900 --> 00:57:59,800 They're building software for creators, where you can accept 950 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:05,400 payment either along crypto or Fiat, rails for pretty much 951 00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,100 anything you list, your orbit can become its own storefront, 952 00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:15,500 you can list a Blog that can be subscription gated or not, you 953 00:58:15,500 --> 00:58:18,800 can list of products. In fact, we're about to we're 954 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,600 working with them very closely, especially this week to go live 955 00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:26,200 with a pilot of there. Product store, which will be 956 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,500 what we use to sell tickets for assembly or conference. 957 00:58:28,500 --> 00:58:31,500 So that will actually all be our ticketing instruction will be 958 00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:34,900 built out by an orbit company and sold over 100 companies 959 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,600 payments rails. And it's important for us that 960 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,100 it's settled in the u.s. d.c. because the irbid foundation is 961 00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:44,300 completely unbanked and crypto -. 962 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,800 So they're mostly working on this space for how can 963 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,400 individual people list their own products for sale? 964 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,500 How can they Actually make you the real money or magic internet 965 00:58:56,500 --> 00:59:00,300 money for them. Whether those be content 966 00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:01,900 creators or physical, good creators. 967 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,300 And of course, toll on, like, one of the big things they're 968 00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:07,500 working on is urban onboarding. It's still very difficult to run 969 00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:09,600 a nerve, it yourself. If you're, you know, unless 970 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,800 you're a highly technical person or a moderately technical 971 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,500 person. Urban hosting is their big thing 972 00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:19,900 where they provide posted orbit for you as a service and part of 973 00:59:19,908 --> 00:59:22,300 the constraints of providing good Urban hosting, is that, you 974 00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:23,700 know, you can take your orbit with you. 975 00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:26,400 And this is one of the hard things infrastructurally to 976 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,400 build about an orbit. Hosting provider is you need the 977 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,500 ability to basically export your orbit from the hosting provider 978 00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:34,600 and shut everything off through them. 979 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,200 Instead of paying them a monthly fee, you can download that whole 980 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,000 orbit. You can then start running it on 981 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,400 your local computer or you can move it into a self-hosted one. 982 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:47,600 If you want to take that on yourself, but having an option 983 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,000 for, you know, normal people that do not want to spend up 984 00:59:52,008 --> 00:59:53,800 their own digitalocean droplet and run in her bed. 985 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,200 Is very important where they can just sort of sign up for one and 986 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,100 let someone else run that infrastructure for them. 987 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,700 And that's kind of their I'd say the fundamental thing they're 988 01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:07,300 trying to crack along with a company called third Earth, 989 01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:12,200 which is also building the hosting Technology themselves. 990 01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:16,400 So and they have a totally different architecture for it. 991 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,400 So, there's a little bit of friendly competition there to 992 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,200 see kind of who's architectures best One more question. 993 01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,000 So, two in terms of the, you know, the future. 994 01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:30,100 So, one of the things that I find pretty interesting in, 995 01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:35,100 like, Strange about irbid but like actually makes a lot of 996 01:00:35,100 --> 01:00:38,200 sense. It's this idea that okay the 997 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:43,300 software or at least the nervous system, the fundamental 998 01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:49,300 operating system becomes does it stops changing its own point, 999 01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:52,000 right? So that you can, for example 1000 01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,100 you'll be able to like boot up some planet, right? 1001 01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:58,600 30 years from now and it was so wrong, which is of course, very 1002 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,500 different from. If you look at any kind of 1003 01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:04,400 software from I'm like 20 years ago, nothing works right because 1004 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,700 like it's all built on stuff that's changed and upgraded and 1005 01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:16,400 like the so if you look at this fundamental, irbid Colonel is 1006 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,700 that finish or like, is there still like a roadmap of changes 1007 01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:23,700 are coming. The Colonel's definitely not 1008 01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:26,600 finished. There's a lot that's going to 1009 01:01:26,607 --> 01:01:30,600 change the thing you flag. There is that it will finish, 1010 01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,500 you know. Like that's and that's not 1011 01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:37,400 that's a that's a hard constraint of the layer B is 1012 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:42,300 built which probably Bears some elaboration, you know what 1013 01:01:42,300 --> 01:01:47,800 Brian's referring to is. The idea of least, if we take a 1014 01:01:47,808 --> 01:01:50,700 technically, the idea of what's called K versioning, which 1015 01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:53,300 turbine invented, as far as I know, yes. 1016 01:01:53,300 --> 01:01:57,300 We also invented our own versioning system which Count 1017 01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:03,700 backwards, 20 and stops at zero. Yeah, this is in stark contrast 1018 01:02:03,700 --> 01:02:07,600 to everything else which counts infinitely upwards with you 1019 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,500 know, whatever scheme you want. Whether that's you know, no 1020 01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:12,600 counting at all. It's just you know a hash of the 1021 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:18,000 latest version or it's you know, September or something. 1022 01:02:18,700 --> 01:02:21,900 The idea with herb it is that you are gradually. 1023 01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:24,100 You know, you're the end and this is really only constrained 1024 01:02:24,100 --> 01:02:26,600 to the colonel, like the most fundamental layers of the stack, 1025 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,300 right, user space software applications, you build that can 1026 01:02:29,300 --> 01:02:30,500 be version 2. However, the heck you want it to 1027 01:02:30,508 --> 01:02:34,100 be? but the colonel the actual 1028 01:02:34,100 --> 01:02:38,600 operating system is K version, which means It starts for at a 1029 01:02:38,607 --> 01:02:43,000 warm State, you know, for 500 somewhere on there and it moves 1030 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,800 backwards, 20 and once it gets to zero, it can never be updated 1031 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:54,200 again. so, the mentality that this And forces is every time I 1032 01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,900 do an update, it needs to be more robust than the last one 1033 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,800 because it's getting closer and closer to my last update that I 1034 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,100 ever get to make. And so we're you know, when our 1035 01:03:05,100 --> 01:03:09,700 current world most software is either perpetually changing or 1036 01:03:09,700 --> 01:03:13,900 it is frozen by accident because it's now become so ubiquitous 1037 01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:16,400 that it's impossible to change without Kasich at it like a 1038 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,500 catastrophe. Like if you imagine what 1039 01:03:18,500 --> 01:03:20,800 happened, if Json introduced a breaking change. 1040 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,500 It wouldn't happen, it just can't happen because Json has 1041 01:03:24,500 --> 01:03:30,400 become an accidental standard in its current form that, you know, 1042 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,800 you couldn't make backward incompatible or change without, 1043 01:03:34,900 --> 01:03:39,800 you know, an unimaginable amount of overhead just about 1044 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:41,300 everything else changes in definitely. 1045 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,800 Well, we're, you know, it ends up kind of whatever state it is 1046 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,700 until it's too hard to change. The urban kernels being designed 1047 01:03:49,700 --> 01:03:53,800 to To freeze to hit absolute zero. 1048 01:03:53,900 --> 01:03:58,300 That's the name k version, it's being designed that way, which 1049 01:03:58,300 --> 01:04:00,500 means that it should perpetually approach. 1050 01:04:00,500 --> 01:04:04,400 This you know as close to perfect as as these guys can get 1051 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:08,400 it which means that the software Stacks simplifies over time the 1052 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,000 Arc of the Arc of development is one of Contracting. 1053 01:04:12,500 --> 01:04:15,500 A Contracting codebase, there's less and less that is added over 1054 01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:19,300 time as the group figures out how to make things more concise 1055 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,800 and elegant. We're fundamental force, a, and 1056 01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:28,100 where is it at today? Like, you know, so the operating 1057 01:04:28,100 --> 01:04:31,400 system itself, collectively, is it, K 418? 1058 01:04:31,500 --> 01:04:37,300 So we've got a long ways to go. Hoon the language, is it k for 1059 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,000 or sorry? No, knock the Assembly Language, 1060 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,200 is a k 4. So there are four more updates 1061 01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,400 that can ever be made to knock. So, knock is not updated very 1062 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,500 often Hoon. I think is in the low hundreds 1063 01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,500 and The r vo K. Is it about 400? 1064 01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:55,900 So, there's many more updates that can be made, there's, you 1065 01:04:55,900 --> 01:04:58,100 know, several of the made per year, but that will probably 1066 01:04:58,100 --> 01:05:01,400 pick up. As more developers are added to 1067 01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,700 the project and the change has become more fine-grained. 1068 01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:09,900 I think the main, the main things that are on the core 1069 01:05:09,900 --> 01:05:14,500 developers radar right now are performance-related like one of 1070 01:05:14,500 --> 01:05:18,000 the big current things called subscription reform, the 1071 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,300 subscription mechanic where you, you know, subscribe It's kind of 1072 01:05:22,300 --> 01:05:27,900 a pub sub model to information coming out of Gaul agents 1073 01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,000 returning to Urban applications, the API for that is you know 1074 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,000 after a couple of years of working with it has been shown 1075 01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,300 to be, you know, kind of annoying and so and, you know, 1076 01:05:39,300 --> 01:05:41,900 not very ergonomic from a developer's perspective and so 1077 01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:44,200 they're kind of reworking. The way that subscriptions work 1078 01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:46,700 to be both more performant and more pleasant to use. 1079 01:05:47,300 --> 01:05:51,300 There's a global content addressing scheme called the 1080 01:05:51,300 --> 01:05:53,000 call. I'm creatively content 1081 01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:58,700 distribution, but this is a way of More efficiently, 1082 01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:01,900 Distributing information around the network, through things like 1083 01:06:01,900 --> 01:06:07,200 gossip protocols and Universal identifiers, Allah ipfs, this 1084 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,500 enables it you know a tables herb it's to Syndicate out 1085 01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:13,100 information and get it not necessarily from its source but 1086 01:06:13,100 --> 01:06:15,400 from anyone else that happens to have the same piece of address 1087 01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,300 content and that's a big Improvement. 1088 01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:21,900 And another ongoing effort is a complete rewrite of the orbit, 1089 01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:24,800 runtime or virtual machine. That's all written in. 1090 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,500 In see the current run time. We have Is the product of a 1091 01:06:28,500 --> 01:06:33,900 handful of people's work over the last decade plus and it's, 1092 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:39,800 you know, it's pretty good but it's amazing that it is as good 1093 01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,600 as it is. Given you know how little 1094 01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,100 resources have been put into it and there's currently an effort 1095 01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:49,900 to kind of re-architect the entire way that that works, 1096 01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:55,800 which will fix a lot of Major Performance, constraints around 1097 01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:01,300 the Like the storage limit back when herb it was first built. 1098 01:07:01,300 --> 01:07:04,800 It was built as a 32-bit system, so there's a limit to you can 1099 01:07:04,808 --> 01:07:07,000 only have two gigs of data in an orbit. 1100 01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:11,100 That's one of the things that is going change, which enables the 1101 01:07:11,100 --> 01:07:16,500 storage of much larger files on your ship, constrained only by 1102 01:07:16,500 --> 01:07:20,700 the underlying disk space. As well as just the general 1103 01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:22,900 performance of the system, through different architecture, 1104 01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,600 making the Ames Network peer-to-peer Network. 1105 01:07:26,700 --> 01:07:30,100 It's called Ames making it much more performant. 1106 01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:36,000 Pass that developer experience needs to be greatly improved. 1107 01:07:36,100 --> 01:07:39,400 You know, the fundamentals were there, but the day-to-day can 1108 01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:43,100 still be a little bit rough. There's a lot of work that needs 1109 01:07:43,100 --> 01:07:45,400 to happen to the terminal which is close to coming out. 1110 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,700 We did the developer call on that last week with Pelton 1111 01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:52,100 Foster lips or showing off the latest work on the terminal 1112 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,100 permissions and security. There's a little bit more a lot 1113 01:07:57,100 --> 01:08:00,600 more auditing that needs to go into the underlying security 1114 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,100 model. And permissioning between 1115 01:08:03,100 --> 01:08:05,400 applications model on a given ship. 1116 01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,400 That's that's kind of stuff that's in in the immediate sites 1117 01:08:09,500 --> 01:08:11,500 right now. And that's probably going to 1118 01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:16,899 span the next year year and a half, but we're definitely like 1119 01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,100 a lot of the major problems, you know, the main things like Ames 1120 01:08:21,100 --> 01:08:26,300 actually working and you know, an identity system really 1121 01:08:26,300 --> 01:08:30,800 working and being scalable, these problems have been solved. 1122 01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:34,600 And we're now, getting into those fine-grained, things and 1123 01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,100 closing narrowing down on the list of big outstanding 1124 01:08:38,100 --> 01:08:41,899 problems, which, you know, in coming years, all of those will 1125 01:08:41,899 --> 01:08:45,600 be done and it'll be on to to polish and refinement of the 1126 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:51,500 experience. I'm sure a lot of people are 1127 01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:54,500 like, Curious interested. How can they get involved? 1128 01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:56,800 I will kill you. What can they do for a bit like 1129 01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,600 so yeah, can you give some pointers? 1130 01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,700 Like if you have if people are in tweaked and they want to do, 1131 01:09:03,700 --> 01:09:05,800 want to get involved in some way, where should they go? 1132 01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:09,399 Anyone interested should definitely get on the network, 1133 01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,000 you know, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but 1134 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,000 it's also not the hardest. I'm talking to a web three 1135 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:15,899 audience. So, you know, we're all 1136 01:09:15,899 --> 01:09:19,200 accustomed to a little bit of of ux pain. 1137 01:09:20,899 --> 01:09:22,700 You can get on for free using a comment. 1138 01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,000 You can also get on. I mean, a planet, is the ideal 1139 01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,300 way and you can buy them. You can also generally just 1140 01:09:27,300 --> 01:09:31,200 like, asked on Twitter, people will D mu 1 because it's a very 1141 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,100 friendly group of people. So you should get on the network 1142 01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:36,000 and you should, you know, start talking to people and seeing 1143 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,200 what's going on. In the group's application, you 1144 01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,100 should go to our website. If you're a developer, there's a 1145 01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:45,399 big update coming out in about 10 days. 1146 01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,500 The end of the month is when were targeted for which will 1147 01:09:47,899 --> 01:09:52,000 create kind of a totally reworked developer portal with 1148 01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:57,400 content that describes in very succinct, terms step by step, 1149 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,000 what you need to learn in order to become an orbit developer, we 1150 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,900 ran a course, we run probably twice a year. 1151 01:10:04,900 --> 01:10:06,900 We're going to run an instructor-led in. 1152 01:10:07,100 --> 01:10:09,600 Traductor E-class. We just ran the last one. 1153 01:10:10,300 --> 01:10:15,700 Graduated about 61 people. Actually precisely 61 people and 1154 01:10:15,700 --> 01:10:19,000 that was that was a huge hit. It's taught by a wonderful 1155 01:10:19,100 --> 01:10:24,200 instructor. We have a grant program 1156 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,700 unsurprisingly the towards Urban address space to people that 1157 01:10:28,700 --> 01:10:32,700 either tackle technical projects or propose their own. 1158 01:10:33,700 --> 01:10:36,100 We also have an apprenticeship program as part of that where 1159 01:10:36,100 --> 01:10:39,300 you can kind of learn By side with a more experienced 1160 01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:44,300 developer, who will Mentor you on you know some some more 1161 01:10:44,300 --> 01:10:49,800 technical problem. And then finally we have a, you 1162 01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,500 know the hesitate to call it a conference because if you've 1163 01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:54,800 been to interpret events, you won't find it like any other 1164 01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:56,100 conference. So I've been using the word 1165 01:10:56,100 --> 01:10:59,800 Confluence, we have an herb, it Confluence in Miami. 1166 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:04,300 In September tickets are going on sale for that in the next 1167 01:11:04,300 --> 01:11:08,300 week or so it's September 22nd through 25th. 1168 01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,700 That'll be a place where you can meet a whole bunch of people 1169 01:11:11,700 --> 01:11:15,100 from the community. Go to some you know go to some 1170 01:11:15,100 --> 01:11:17,300 side events here. Some talks see the things that 1171 01:11:17,300 --> 01:11:20,900 have you know our ecosystem has been working on for the last 1172 01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:25,800 year they'll be a lot of launches there and a lot of 1173 01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:30,600 people with a lot of energy that will be very happy to meet you 1174 01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:35,100 and get you involved in whatever their project is things are very 1175 01:11:35,100 --> 01:11:37,600 Word of Mouth under but so being on the network and talking to 1176 01:11:37,608 --> 01:11:41,500 people is how most of the work gets done through, you know 1177 01:11:41,500 --> 01:11:44,800 direct relationships. We're running a hackathon that 1178 01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:48,300 culminates it assembly, the winning four teams present and 1179 01:11:48,300 --> 01:11:53,600 will be you know voted on as Prize winner by the audience 1180 01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,400 using an urban application that Holy and produced called ballot 1181 01:11:58,700 --> 01:12:02,300 and that group will win you know handful of stars for the best 1182 01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:03,600 thing they do you have two months. 1183 01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:08,100 So app School live. The class that teaches you how 1184 01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:10,300 to become an application developer that does have some 1185 01:12:10,300 --> 01:12:13,200 prerequisites. So, you know, You've got a few 1186 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,300 weeks before that starts so you know start reading the docks for 1187 01:12:16,300 --> 01:12:23,300 sure under B dot org that kicks off September July 12th, the 1188 01:12:23,300 --> 01:12:25,300 hackathon starts a couple weeks later called minutes at 1189 01:12:25,308 --> 01:12:27,200 assembly. So if you're a developer, you're 1190 01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:28,500 listening to this, you want to get involved. 1191 01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:33,000 Now is a really great time and you can always reach me at Josh 1192 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,900 Shader but not org or will ref potlucks on the network. 1193 01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,800 Cool. Thanks so much Josh. 1194 01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:42,500 It was really great to have you on and, you know, I'm super 1195 01:12:42,500 --> 01:12:44,500 excited by her weight. I'm definitely gonna be an 1196 01:12:44,500 --> 01:12:50,000 assembly and, you know, I've been probably speaking very 1197 01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:50,800 much. Yeah, absolutely. 1198 01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:54,700 And if I'm very much enjoying, you know, diving into irbid and 1199 01:12:54,700 --> 01:12:58,800 super excited, about what said to come for for the network and 1200 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,700 for the project. So thanks so much for coming on 1201 01:13:01,700 --> 01:13:06,300 and doing excited to for our listeners, to kind of get an 1202 01:13:06,300 --> 01:13:09,500 update on orbit, and I'm sure some of When will, you know, 1203 01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:12,200 check it out and get more involved as well. 1204 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:15,300 Absolutely yeah, thanks so much for having me. 1205 01:13:15,308 --> 01:13:18,900 This is been a lot of fun and, you know, enjoyed looking 1206 01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:23,400 forward to seeing you assembly. Thank you for joining us on this 1207 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:25,800 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1208 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,800 week. You can find And subscribe to 1209 01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,500 the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 1210 01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:33,900 you listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or 1211 01:13:33,900 --> 01:13:36,700 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 1212 01:13:36,708 --> 01:13:40,500 the epicenter podcast, go to epicenter dot TV /, subscribe 1213 01:13:40,500 --> 01:13:43,200 for a full list of places where you can watch and listen, while 1214 01:13:43,300 --> 01:13:44,600 Are you there? Be sure to sign up for the 1215 01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:47,200 newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 1216 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,600 they're released. 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